Hunter's Call cooldown reduced to 24/22/20/18/16 seconds from 30/27/24/21/18
v1.0.0.126 - 2011-10-05
Infinite Duress Slowed down the first two ticks of damage slightly (before the first two ticks came almost instantly) Infinite Duress will now stop channeling if the target becomes a zombie
v1.0.0.123 - 2011-08-09
Infinite Duress Fixed a bug where Infinite Duress would sometimes tick only 4 times Fixed a bug where Infinite Duress could sometimes break early even if not interrupted
v1.0.0.121 - 2011-07-08
Hungering Strike now heals for 80% of damage dealt, down from 100%
v1.0.0.120 - 2011-06-22
Hungering Strike's heal is no longer reduced if the damage is shielded
v1.0.0.109 - 2011-01-17
Blood Scent now properly remembers toggle state when you respawn
v1.0.0.106 - 2010-12-01
Eternal Thirst Heal per stack increased to 6/12/18 from 5/10/15 Maximum number of stacks reduced to 3 from 4 Duration increased to 4 seconds from 3 Base attack speed reduced slightly
v1.0.0.100 - 2010-09-08
Blood Scent is now a toggle Infinite Duress can no longer be cast while rooted
v1.0.0.87 - 2010-06-08
Updated Blood Scent's tooltip to reflect that this ability has no cooldown since it is passive.
v1.0.0.85 - 2010-05-11
Hunter's Call attack speed buff changed to 40%/50%/60%/70%/80% from 50%/55%/60%/65%/70%.
v1.0.0.83 - 2010-04-27
Hunter's Call has been adjusted to work on nearby allied champions instead of globally Fixed a bug with Infinite Duress where Warwick would sometimes stay stunned even if his opponent broke out of the effect
v1.0.0.79 - 2010-03-16
Infinite Duress now gains an additional 30% lifesteal bonus
v1.0.0.75 - 2010-02-24
Hungering Strike Mana cost reduced to 60/70/80/90/100 from 100 at all levels Hungering Strike cooldown reduced by 2 at all levels Hunter's Call attack speed bonus increased to 50/55/60/65/70% from 50% at all levels. Allies gain half of this bonus at all levels Hunter's Call duration modified to 10 seconds at all levels from 6/9/12/15/18 Hunter's Call cooldown reduced to 30/27/24/21/18 seconds from 32 seconds at all levels Blood Scent now has new particles both for Warwick and his victims Infinite Duress Decreased cooldown to 90/80/70 from 100 at all levels Decreased Mana cost to 100/125/150 from 150 at all levels Decreased stun duration to 1.7 from 2.1 Decreased number of hits to 5 from 6 Increased bonus damage per hit to 40/60/80 from 30/50/70 Increased base and attack speed per level by 10%, which also increases attack speed from items and Hunter's Call Increased base Mana by 20 Increased base Mana regen and Mana regen per level by 20% Updated PVP.Net champion search tags
Health ............ 428 (+98) Mana ............. 190 (+30) Damage ......... 56.76 (+3.375) Attack Speed . 0.665 (+2.88%) Range ............ 125 Health Regen .. 7.05 (+0.8) Mana Regen ... 4.6 (+0.4) Armor ............ 16 (+3.5) Magic Res ...... 30 (+1.25) Mov. Speed .... 320
Abilities:
Passive - Eternal Thirst: Each of Warwick's attacks will heal him for 6 Health. The amount restored increases by 6 at levels 7 and 13. Each successive attack against the same target will restore increasing amounts of health to Warwick.
Stacks up to 3 times. This is a huge part of Warwick's sustainability, especially alongside hunter's call. 18 HP/hit at level 1 is no joke in the jungle, and by level 13, you'll be getting 54 HP back per hit after the 3rd hit.
Q - Hungering Strike: Strikes an enemy for the greater value between 75/125/175/225/275 + 1 AP and 8/11/14/17/20% of the target's maximum Health as magic damage (can only do flat damage to monsters), and heals Warwick for 80% of the damage dealt.
CD: 10/9/8/7/6 Mana: 60/70/80/90/100 Range: 400
This is your bread and butter nuke + self heal rolled into one neat little package. It's pretty much the linchpin of WWs entire kit. It's very fast with the animation and has longer than expected range, so it's perfect for chasing down and killing low HP targets in tandem with Blood Scent, even under their towers. It's also the key ability to his strength in lane as any time you can negotiate a burst trade with Hungering Strike, you typically end up ahead since you have a powerleveled heal and nuke all rolled into one whereas your opponent (typically) has only a nuke or a heal or has to choose one over the other.
To understand the option clause in this ability, you have to realize that AP is only applied to the first option, which is to say that if you have 200 AP, you'll do 275 + 200 = 475 to targets under 2375, and 20% of their HP to targets above 2375. This means that as your opponents get more HP, you're fighting against the base scaling of your ability with your AP scaling, which makes the gains from AP actually deceptively low, despite the juicy 1:1 ratio that's advertised. tl;dr: don't buy AP on WW.
W - Hunter's Call: Warwick lets out a howl that inspires all nearby allied champions. This increases Warwick's attack speed by (40/50/60/70/80)% and all nearby friendly champions' attack speed by half of that for 10 seconds.
CD: 24/22/20/18/16 Mana: 35 Range: 828.5?
Not a whole lot to say about this. Very strong Attack Speed Steroid for yourself and your team that's mostly useful in tearing down towers, dragon and baron ASAP. Leveling up decreases CD by a noticeable margin and has decent stat scaling, so there's a pretty decent push/pull between leveling this and leveling E.
E - Blood Scent: Toggle: Warwick senses enemy champions under 50% life within 1500/2300/3100/3900/4700 distance of him; while he detects a low-health enemy, he gains 20/25/30/35/40% Movement Speed.
CD: N/A Mana: N/A Range: 1500/2300/3100/3900/4700
Hands down my favorite aspect of WW. This ability is designed to let you hunt down and kill low HP champions who are trying to narrowly escape. Extra levels in this are deceptively strong. Level 3 has double the range of Level 1 and you can definitely feel the extra movespeed too. Sensing a low HP opponent will put a marker over their head letting them know you're on their trail, so if you're trying to be sneaky with a gank, leave it off until you need the speed or you think they already see you. This ability is also crucial to WW's lane control, as many matchups revolve around getting your opponent to under half HP for the bonus movespeed which will let you better dictate the burst trades.
R - Infinite Duress: Warwick lunges at an enemy Champion, suppressing his target for 1.7 seconds. While they are suppressed, Warwick quickly strikes the target 5 times for 33% of his Attack Damage plus 40/60/80 as magic damage. Warwick gains an additional 30% Lifesteal while performing Infinite Duress.
CD: 90/80/70 Mana: 100/125/150 Range: 700
165% AD + 200/300/400 damage total on this. It's a massive nuke + disable on an instantaneous jump that simply ruins people. Used during gank, this should almost always guarantee a kill. Used 1v1 in lane, this should almost always put your opponent beneath 50% HP for bloodscent tower diving with Hungering Strike. Just a fantastic ability across the board.
While AD only procs at 33% on this ability, on-hit effects trigger at full efficiency. That means that Wit's End will add 210 damage to this ability and Bloodrazor will add 20% of your opponent's HP.
The biggest weakness of this skill is when you get to teamfights and the opponents have a lot of disables, they can simply CC you off of your victim, but you can still initiate and force a fight by doing this or hold onto it for a savage cleanup with it.
GUIDES
LANEWICK coming soon... not enough games since mastery changes.
JUNGLE WW Summoner Skills: Flash + Smite Blood Scent is already a permanent ghost, why would you bother with Ghost even when it was good? Flash lets you do gay Flash -> ult schenanigans and smite is good for smiting jungle minions.
Masteries: 21/0/9 WW has some of the hardest choices when it comes to the new mastery trees as he benefits fairly heavily from them all. I prefer my setup because it's one of the fastest for clearing jungle camps and makes you deal a ton of damage throughout the game, but honestly, any mix of 21 in one tree and 9 in another is viable on WW.
Anything that's more or less along the same lines as this will work well.
Skill Order: R > Q > W > E I open WQQEQR or WEQQQR (explained in playstyle below). W over E for the most part, but feel free to mix points in E into your build if you think it can help your ganks.
Item Build:
Starting Items + x3 or + Personally, I'm all about the boots opening these days. Without boots, you're a very weak low-level gank threat, but if you open boots, you'll frequently catch lanes with their pants down and make them burn flash or die to a WW with boots and red buff.
Core + Wriggle's rush, pretty standard on auto-attacking junglers. You may say that wriggle's is unnecessary on WW and that you can get away with just razors, and you know what? You're right. But that doesn't change the fact that Wriggle's is a stupidly efficient item and that bloodrazor is pretty crappy item to be going for later anyway. Suck it up and get Wriggle's, it gives you free wards, more dragon control, better dueling capabilities, etc etc etc, just do it.
What Next ? Typically speaking, HoG is my next item after Wriggle's and maybe boots 2. New jungle starves characters like WW and getting the extra income rolling is helpful. It's also pretty much a no brainer vs. triple AD teams, as Omen + FH will make you an unkillable monster in the late game. ? I love love love phage. It gives you roughly a 76% chance of a slow off your ult, which significantly reduces the chances that your ult gank will fall short because of a flash. Even outside of your ult, it makes it much scarier for the opposing jungle to counter you, as getting caught with a phage slow vs. WW with w up and bloodscent is pretty much inescapable, and just is generally crazy strong for chasing. Also it builds into triforce, which is a great item on WW. ? Wit's is a great item on WW. Great synergy with your ult, W and passive and great base stats. or ? These are your early game, strictly defensive options. I don't go for either of these frequently, but they're both good items to get vs. double AP comps, as they give you a lot more bulk with HP and MRes vs. AP's strong midgame burst. I would only recommend getting one, and the choice is largely preference. Spirit visage is 400 cheaper, and the net defensive value vs. APs is probably slightly higher because of the increased frequency and potency of your Qs from the CDR and unique passive. However, Aegis gives more straight resists and HP (more useful if you don't have time for Qs), gives you armor and AD, and benefits your team. Tough to say, they're both good at what they do and are situationally good.
Boots Options
or
or
Pretty straight forward here, both the defensive boots are great and you should be getting the one that makes sense given the opposing comp most of the time, or you can get zerker's greaves quickly with your wriggle's for much faster jungling and extra oomph in your ganks.
Staple Later Items + + These are your big ticket armor options. Frozen Heart is very good because CDR and mana help make up for the lack of blue buff later and WW doesn't need health as bad as most. Omen is a great item, especially since WW is all about resists (making the active stronger). Against triple AD, Frozen Heart + Omen + Ninja Tabi makes WW a god, and you will just win the game when you hit those 3. Against more balanced teams, GA is my item of choice. GA also fits very conveniently into wriggles + wit's + mercs as a 4th item to give you crazy strong resists while working on your triforce.
Triforce is the best offensive item on WW. There, I said it. You can't run from a WW with triforce and he hits like a fucking truck. Wriggle's + Wit's + Triforce is just a crazy strong offensive core on characters who have tank items on their last 2 slots. I don't build bloodrazors anymore.
I don't suggest banshee's under normal circumstances. I'd usually rather go wit's + mercs + pick 2 out of aegis, visage, GA if I really need to be balls out MRes. But if having that bubble is game-breaking for your ult as an initiation tool, go ahead and take it (when they have limited ways of disrupting your ult and limited ways to pop banshee's).
My Standard Final Item Build vs. Balanced Comp: + + + + +
vs. Heavy AP: + + + + +
vs. Heavy AD: + + + + +
These are just guidelines, don't take these as dogma.
Playstyle New jungle is weird. I'm personally a big fan of boots opening, doing wraiths -> red -> gank a lane at level 2. If ganking top lane vs. someone with boots, take your E at level 2 so that you can stick to them, otherwise take Q for more damage since you'll stick boots vs. no boots anyway. After your level 2 gank, full clear to your blue, back, buy and farm jungle for a bit, looking for high value ganks along the way until you hit 6. Post 6, abuse your ult for ganks and try to get a kill on every CD. Aim your ganks mid/bot if you can when dragon is up and coordinate advantageous dragon attemps. With your W you are a beast at doing team dragons. From there, balance your offensive and defensive purchases, erring on the side of defensive items. WW needs to outlast people in teamfights, and as long as he lasts a long time, he should be golden, since he gets huge effective HP from every Q CD and does strong base damage from just Qs.
LANEWICK Summoner Skills: Flash + Ignite Blood Scent is already a permanent ghost, why would you bother with Ghost even when it was good? Flash lets you do gay Flash -> ult schenanigans and ignite is good for killing people.
Masteries:9/0/21 is my preferred set of masteries for laning. 15% MPen is pretty huge for WW's ability to maul tanks late in the game (one of his best attributes is just beating down most other characters who can last throughout fights) so that's the focal point of the setup. Utility just gives you a ton of stuff you need via the CD redux on your Q, the movespeed and the mana regen, and the more frequent summoners which are very often needed to seal the deal on kills.
Runes: Quints: 2 Flat AP, 1 Movespeed Marks: 9 MPen Seals: 9 Flat Armor Glyphs: 9 Flat MRes "But wait Smash," you're exclaiming, "you just told me that AP isn't good on WW! Why do you have AP Quints?" AP is bad on WW as the game goes on. At level 1, you don't have to worry about fighting your own scaling on Q unless your target has almost 1K HP (not bloody likely) and throughout all of laning, it's nice have that extra little Oomph to your Q. I accept that it's useless later and that maybe I'd rather have 3 Movespeed later, but I still like it bolstering my really low levels as that's where WW is at his weakest. Basically you can run any type of defensive, movespeed, or MPen/AP/CDR Quints and do just fine though.
Skill Order: R > Q > E > W QWQEQR to open. I like E over W in lane cause I dive like a boss and don't bother with offensive items very early, but W over E is better if you're teamfighting earlier or if you get a particularly fast Wit's End.
Item Build:
Starting Items + x 2
Core + + Mana is WW's main bottleneck early, so Meki opening -> Philo is a great way to start and then once you have Chalice you're pretty much an immovable object in lane. It's just so impossible to knock a WW with that much mana down. Some people run D-Ring openings, but I prefer Philo because WW isn't a great farmer and getting that extra gold is a godsend when you can't afford to sit around and last hit. Not to mention the HP regen helps you get to a comfy buffer if you ever get away by just a hair and then want to stick around and last hit on the tower in 10 seconds or so.
What Next ? If you're vs. a hard pusher where you need to be able to push the lane back quickly, wriggle's is a decent option. I don't like getting this item on lanewick, but it has it's merrits as an incredibly efficient source of sustainability and pushing power. ? Spirit Visage is a great item on WW and you pretty much can't go wrong with it. While HP is undervalued on WW, the extra Regen, MRes, and CDR is all great on him. ? The best option for sustained DPS in lane on WW and also a great source of MRes. This will also help vs. heavy pushing like Wriggle's and I tend to prefer it over wriggle's for the damage it provides on your ult and synergy with Bloodrazor later. or ? If you need a ton of armor ASAP, these are your 2 best options. Sunfire can help solve pushing problems and is good at sitting there and wailing on people, but makes playing under your opponent's tower more difficult as it will always draw agro. Frozen Heart is great and I love it, but if you're getting pushed onto your tower, you simply cannot get it because it doesn't help clear creep quickly enough.
Boots Options <------ BUY ME MOST OF THE TIME or
Mercs should almost always been bought. In rare cases where you're vs. low MRes oponents where you need to hit harder with you Q (note: this is almost never, typically hitting harder with your Q doesn't make or break lanes for you), Sorc Shoes can be useful.
Finishing Up On WW, I tend to like to complete a very fast build by using several items from my "What Next Section" and just having a full 6 item build full of mid-level powerhouse items. This is because WW is a lousy farmer and having all the PvP power you can ASAP has proven the most effective in my experience. Here are some of the later options:
GA is especially potent on Warwick because Q is basically always up when you respawn so you come back, Q, and are typically already back at a reasonable HP level. The only downside to GA is that it provides no offense so you need to make sure you're already enough of a threat before you buy a GA.
+ Bloodrazor is excellent along the exact same lines as Wit's End, but I actually advocate for Triforce out of lanes sometimes in place of bloodrazor. I know it sounds really weird, but hear me out. With Spirit Visage + Frozen Heart + 9/0/21 spec, you hit 39% CDR, letting you Q every 3.7 seconds with one of the better base ADs in the game. On top of that, extra movespeed + a slow let you actually stick to the toughest kiters in the game. Bloodrazor will do more damage because it synergizes with your Wit's End and your kit better, but Triforce does provide a lot of utility and I highly recomend trying it out of lane after Wit's End at some point before you completely discount it.
+ In the rare cases where Mercs + Spirit Visage + Wit's End + Chalice are not enough Magic Resist, I suggest Banshee's because even though I usually don't like Banshee's on Melee, it's nice on WW to force 2 spells to bust you off someone you've ulted to initiate on late game. In super duper rare cases you just want the raw MRes from FoN, but the regen isn't as good due to WW's natural self healing and tendency to build less HP than most tanky chars, so it's typically worse.
My Standard Final Item Build + + + + +
Playstyle Take top lane. Push it ASAP during early levels so that you can get a level and creep advantage. Warwick's first few levels are his weak point, so I really really encourage an early push to make it harder for your opponent to fight you during your weakest point. Once you get a few levels under your belt, farm your core and then just start bossing your opponent around via lopsided nuke trades since your Q is so imba. Zone them off of creeps and play very aggressive because you cannot really outfarm someone unless you're getting in their face and being a prick by denying them. WW is a phenominal towerdiver with this setup as you're incredibly tanky and can just chase bloodscented opponents with your Qs and kill them. Feel free to tell your jungler to cover and then use your ult to gank if you're vs. some tough to kill asshole like Garen. Just make sure your ult is being put to good use. If you're not using your ult/the threat of your ult to kill/zone people, you're doing it wrong. Tank out as hard as you need to for late game. The whole point of WW in lategame is to just outlast everyone, so do what you gotta do to last to the end of the fight where your crazy sustainability will just trump everyone else.
Bad lane matchups for WW include Morde, Garen, and Teemo, but also includes pretty much anyone who can just continually shove the lane and force WW to last hit under his tower.
JUNGLE WW Summoner Skills: Flash + Smite Blood Scent is already a permanent ghost, why would you bother with Ghost even when it was good? Flash lets you do gay Flash -> ult schenanigans and smite is good for smiting jungle minions.
Masteries:21/0/9 is my preferred set of masteries for jungling, but 9/0/21 is also viable. 15% MPen is pretty huge for WW's ability to maul tanks late in the game (one of his best attributes is just beating down most other characters who can last throughout fights) so make sure to grab it. Offensive masteries favor a faster jungle clear while Utility gives you more smites, flashes and buff duration alongside improved movespeed.
Runes: Quints: 2 Flat AD, 1 Attack Speed Marks: 7 ArPen, 2 Attack Speed Seals: 9 Flat Armor Glyphs: 9 Scaling MRes I basically run this on everyone who attacks in the jungle these days. The reason for the AD is so that if you decide to start Wraiths, you can kill small wraiths in 3 hits with the 21/0/9 mastery spec I provided.
Many people will just run 9/0/21 and replace the AD Quints with Attack Speed Quints though and that's perfectly fine too.
Skill Order: R > Q > W > E I open WQQEQR and then max W since once I start giving up my blue buffs, I like to be able to just spam W for jungle clearing.
Item Build:
Starting Items +
Core + Madred's rush. You need Razors for the speed since you just sit around and wail on camps as WW.
What Next This'll look familiar... ? Again, I'm still not a fan of this on WW because I don't think he needs the sustain, but it is still quite efficient and in the jungle it adds a lot of dragon control, gives you more wards and releases your dependence on your Q to keep your HP fully topped off. I still think you're usually better off rushing your wit's end and leaving your Razor as a Razor to build into Bloodrazor later, but Wriggle's is still great and you'll still see most top WWs rushing it, so it's definitely worthwhile. ? Spirit Visage is a great item on WW and you pretty much can't go wrong with it. While HP is undervalued on WW, the extra Regen, MRes, and CDR is all great on him. ? The best option for sustained DPS on WW and also a great source of MRes. This will completely ease your blue buff reliance by letting you just rip up the jungle with W and your 42 magic damage/hit. The extra attack speed with your passive also adds a lot of sustainability, though not as much as Wriggle's. ? If you're falling behind in the Jungle and need income and HP to avoid getting bursted down, HoG is a good choice. I typically don't let myself get far enough behind that I ever like HoG, but in the rare cases where I'm sitting at Razor and boots at 12:00 with only 850 gold, I'll typically jump on a HoG.
Boots Options <------ BUY ME MOST OF THE TIME or
Mercs should almost always been bought. If you jump way ahead early in the jungle, zerkers can let you counter jungle very quickly and eat the whole jungle, but will usually be sold for mercs anyway if the game drags out.
Staple Later Items + + + These are your big ticket armor options. Frozen Heart is very good because CDR and mana help make up for the lack of blue buff later and WW doesn't need health as bad as most. Sunfire helps with jungle speed and with splitting off to clear sidelanes + gives you some incidental damage while chasing someone that doesn't require that you go through a spell or attack animation, but the efficiency numbers just aren't that great on it anymore. Omen is my least favorite of these 4, but when you go HoG after Razors it's awful convenient and all around pretty good. GA is especially potent on Warwick because Q is basically always up when you respawn so you come back, Q, and are typically already back at a reasonable HP level. The only downside to GA is that the other 3 all provide some level of offense (through aura or CDR) so you need to make sure you're already enough of a threat before you buy a GA.
+ Bloodrazor is excellent along the exact same lines as Wit's End, but I find wriggle's -> wit's end -> Triforce to be better than razor -> wit's end -> bloodrazor vs. squishier teams.
+ In the rare cases where Mercs + Spirit Visage + Wit's End are not enough Magic Resist, I suggest Banshee's because even though I usually don't like Banshee's on Melee, it's nice on WW to force 2 spells to bust you off someone you've ulted to initiate on late game. In super duper rare cases you just want the raw MRes from FoN, but the regen isn't as good due to WW's natural self healing and tendency to build less HP than most tanky chars, so it's typically worse.
My Standard Final Item Build + + + + +
My laning and jungling target builds are identical.
Playstyle WW's jungle's main strength is it's flexibility. WW can start wherever and be just fine, so feel free to audible off of Blue if you can't really contest the opposing team at level 1. Ideal path is big wolf (use W at 1:35 as you only need 5 seconds of the AS buff to kill the wolf and that'll put it off CD sooner for blue) -> Blue (smite #1) -> small wolves -> wraith -> red (smite #2) -> small gols. Get your razor when convenient, but look for ganks. People underestimate a pre-6 WW's ability to gank and with double buff + lane support, you can often rape an overextending lane sideways. Once you hit 6, coordinate ults with lanes for kills every time it's off CD and eat as much jungle as possible between ult CDs. Maintain dragon control, after any gank mid or bot or when your opposing jungler is ganking top, you should be looking to force drag as WW kills dragon very quickly with his team via W with madred's razor/wriggle's. Balance your offense and defense as necessary going into mid game, typically erring on the side of too much defense instead of offense. WW gets more offense out of lasting a long time in fights than he does from building glass cannon in my experience.
only thing i strongly disagree with you on are your runes for laning, specifically your quints (i like 1 MPen, 2 MS) and your blues (i prefer scaling MR)
other than that, great guide, you really captured the essence of the wolf ~~
On July 22 2011 13:22 gtrsrs wrote: only thing i strongly disagree with you on are your runes for laning, specifically your quints (i like 1 MPen, 2 MS) and your blues (i prefer scaling MR)
other than that, great guide, you really captured the essence of the wolf ~~
laning vs. a mage with 11 less MRes at level 1 makes me a sad panda. In jungle you can get away with scaling since you typically speaking won't even get him with magic damage until level 4 at the earliest and even then that's typically in gank situations where you're at an advantage anyway. But in lane, gorsh, it's like night and day flat vs. scaling. Quints are almost enitrely preference between mitgation, movespeed, flat AP and MPen IMHO. They all have their merits and you can do w/e you're comfy with.
On July 22 2011 13:42 NeoIllusions wrote: Not a fan on SV.
that's cause you're a baddie. It's ok, corgiwick loves you anyway.
yeah his ult procs on-hit effects. that's why madred's was such a sought-after item. it hits for like 24% of their life before MR. cleaver is another one that's really ballin'. but wit's end is the new fotm. tons of damage and your ult gives you full MR stacks.
would u mind spiting the whole thread in two? it's really distracting when ur bouncing between 2 different item builds "chalice on ww? is smash trolling?" "oh its for fucking lanewick" "sorc boots? i thought tl took preemptive measures to make sure grackis can't enter this site" "oh yea....its for lanewick" "wriggles bad? OH YEA ITS FOR FUCKING LANEWICK"
I always used to neglect SV as a slightly overcosted alternative to sunfire when needing to rush a health item. Nowadays though I love it. I usually get either SV or sunfire depending on whether I need MR or armor more, or both if my team doesn't need me to be doing direct damage.
Is ghost really not worth it anymore? I allllways run ghost on ww but I'm a scrub so it may not be a good call. Flash obv in lane but I love ghost for pre-6 ganks, and as an "oshit run run run" button. Also late game E+ghost = no udyr, not even you can outrun me.
On July 22 2011 20:35 locodoco wrote: would u mind spiting the whole thread in two? it's really distracting when ur bouncing between 2 different item builds "chalice on ww? is smash trolling?" "oh its for fucking lanewick" "sorc boots? i thought tl took preemptive measures to make sure grackis can't enter this site" "oh yea....its for lanewick" "wriggles bad? OH YEA ITS FOR FUCKING LANEWICK"
just my 2cents,other than that great job~
lol, yea, I can see how it would be distracting, I was just kinda working off Neo's template and this is what came out. I'll reformat this and the Jarman guide to better differentiate thoughts on Jungling vs. Laning builds.
SV is huge with a good healer cuz it gives CDR as well.
Malady + Wit's End is devastating, try it out (on lanewick).
Sunfire over Randuins every time, GA usually not a good option for armor but it is a good option for becoming the scary towerdiving lategame monster. Also, atma's should be on there for lanewick too.
On July 22 2011 22:49 Haemonculus wrote: I always used to neglect SV as a slightly overcosted alternative to sunfire when needing to rush a health item. Nowadays though I love it. I usually get either SV or sunfire depending on whether I need MR or armor more, or both if my team doesn't need me to be doing direct damage.
Is ghost really not worth it anymore? I allllways run ghost on ww but I'm a scrub so it may not be a good call. Flash obv in lane but I love ghost for pre-6 ganks, and as an "oshit run run run" button. Also late game E+ghost = no udyr, not even you can outrun me.
Should I make the switch to flash?
late game, udyr punches you in the mouth with his mighty bear claws and then keeps running. It's rare that those extra 10 seconds of Ghost will actually be the difference between a kill and an escape and it's even rarer that chasing down Udyr and doing so is the right play rather than securing neutral buffs/pushing faster.
On July 22 2011 23:38 NeoIllusions wrote: haha, builds take priority as the largest "class". All other subset information should be describe what build you're using.
My usual Junglewick build is Wriggles, Wit's End, some type of survivability (BV or Sunfire), Malady. Maybe I'll try SV instead of BV/Sunfire?
yea yea, I was just copy pasting your template and then ranting under each section.
re-junglewick, I just go Razors -> (HoG, if planning on Randuin's later) -> Wit's End -> SV -> one of the armor items listed. I am greedy and don't get Wriggles on junglewick unless I'm falling behind, because I don't need the sustainability, want my bloodrazors faster, and will gain more jungling speed by just getting my wit's end 600 gold faster anyway.
On July 22 2011 23:37 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: SV is huge with a good healer cuz it gives CDR as well.
Malady + Wit's End is devastating, try it out (on lanewick).
Sunfire over Randuins every time, GA usually not a good option for armor but it is a good option for becoming the scary towerdiving lategame monster. Also, atma's should be on there for lanewick too.
Malady is a bad item on everyone. I've tried it on basically everyone who it makes even a little bit of sense on because I want it to work in AS-on-hit builds so badly, but as expected it becomes completely forgettable once your opponent buys a some MRes, which they were going to do anyway vs. Teemo/Kog/WW. Oh yea, and AP carries are really strong right now too so everyone's speccing MRes even regardless of you.
Sunfire over Randuin's most of the time. If you're getting wailed on by a comp that's like, Lee Sin Top, Corki Bot, and Nocturne from the jungle, you gain a hell of a lot more from the extra armor and the slowed attack speed off randuin. It also builds from a gold/10 item, so that's a pretty big thing going for it too. Sunfire is good and I agree that it's general better than Omen, but I'm just saying Omen has it's niche and it's foolish to say Sunfire over it every time.
GA's much more about letting me initiate 1v5 than about towerdiving (I mean, fuck, if you watch my stream, you'll see that it's rare that I play WW without towerdiving all the way to their top inhib tower on just chalice + philo. I don't need GA to towerdive). Being able to just give up the body to eat enemy CDs while still having the chance to outlast them all come the end of the fight is huge. Also it bolsters MRes a bit too, which is pretty cool.
I disagree pretty strongly on Atma's. If you look at WW's top priorities in terms of stats, it's like: Armor, MRes, Attack Speed, CDR, Mana/Mana Regen, On-Hit Procs. HP, Crit, and Damage are all undervalued on WW. HP because he heals himself for 16% of his target's HP every 3.7 seconds late game, so other mitigation rapes HP because he has all this hidden HP he gains back throughout the fight. Crit and Damage because his ult doesn't cit and only does 33% AD/hit, but triggers on-hit effects at 100% efficiency. On-hit effects also synergize better with his Hunter's Call and the fact that when chasing someone, having a near instant attack animation from high attack speed is better than slowly hitting them for more. Not to mention that Wit's and Bloodrazors also provide mitigation which again are at a paramount. When Atma's is your only crit/damage item, it's not impressive unless you build Warmog's, which is bad on WW because again, HP isn't what he needs.
I don't think you can use it as your only survivability item, it's more of a utility midgame item that synergizes really well with ww's skillset. Sunfire and veil have a much stronger chunk of HP so it's okay to use as the sole pure "tank" item, but SV will almost always need something to go with it. Still, it's amazing, the early cdr and applied heal wrecks a lot of fights.
Wow, ninja'd. I still think wit's + malady is amazing on WW as the only sources of damage, he absolutely melts any glass cannon with it by just ulting -> q+w stick. That MR shred is huge against people who stack MR, and I think my style of lanewick is slightly different from yours. You play up the q procs, I mainly go tank or tanky dps. I like to build pure damage until I'm forced to do otherwise and the aspd really helps you farm perfectly. Kinda stylistic though, I'm pretty sure most lanewicks go pure AP nuke style, which I find to be a tad underwhelming compared to dps "stay the fk out of my lane-wick". Wit's + Malady into tank feels really strong mid-late, obviously being beat out by triforce lategame.
Also try QWQE, ww has a hard time farming those first few levels and the w point really helps. E will obviously get you out of a couple of ganks, but you shouldn't be overextending like that anyway and if you're playing vs someone that will die to e at level 2 you probably don't have to worry about skill order .
On July 23 2011 00:15 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: Wow, ninja'd. I still think wit's + malady is amazing on WW as the only sources of damage, he absolutely melts any glass cannon with it by just ulting -> q+w stick.
Why do you think you need to flush 1825 gold down the toilet to melt squishies? It's not like WW has a hard time murdering a squishy who he's allowed to stick to with just a wit's end. Malady gives you a very brief power spike between when you buy it and when they buy a negatron, and after that point is basically just a recurve bow. But I think the squishy argument is flawed because if the other team is letting me just stick to their squishy something's gone horribly wrong for them anyway and I don't need any help doing what my character is designed to do.
On July 23 2011 00:15 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:That MR shred is huge against people who stack MR,
Oh god, really? Not you too, 5HIT. ffs, I'm used to explaining this to people who have been playing for under a month, I figured you'd know better... Flat mitigation reduction is shit vs. mitigation stacking. If I reduce someone's MRes from 24 to 0 with my Malady, that makes my Wit's End and Malady do 62 damage per hit rather than 50 damage per hit. If I reduce someone's MRes from 100 to 76 with my Malady, I do 35 damage per hit instead of 31. It gets worse at it goes higher. Flat reduction and penetration > low resistance targets, but does very little to high resistance targets.
On July 23 2011 00:15 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:and I think my style of lanewick is slightly different from yours. You play up the q procs, I mainly go tank or tanky dps.
I build basically straight tank. You might be able to farm and push harder in lane, but my build is a lot tankier a lot quicker.
On July 23 2011 00:15 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:I like to build pure damage until I'm forced to do otherwise and the aspd really helps you farm perfectly. Kinda stylistic though, I'm pretty sure most lanewicks go pure AP nuke style, which I find to be a tad underwhelming compared to dps "stay the fk out of my lane-wick". Wit's + Malady into tank feels really strong mid-late, obviously being beat out by triforce lategame.
See, the problem is that even assuming that your build is stronger in lane (which is probably entirely dependent on the matchup), come midgame, I don't want some glass cannon WW who needs to sit around and wail on the opposing team with his Malady to do anything.
On July 23 2011 00:15 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:Also try QWQE, ww has a hard time farming those first few levels and the w point really helps. E will obviously get you out of a couple of ganks, but you shouldn't be overextending like that anyway and if you're playing vs someone that will die to e at level 2 you probably don't have to worry about skill order anyway .
I should probably mention in the skill section that sometimes I get W at level 2, but it's rare. I do grab W when I want to be able to sit there and wail on someone who's trying to get cheeky by jumping on me at level 2 (like irel/xin/ls).
I'm sorry, completely random and kinda out there. But apparently, when i was browsing the credits while waiting to leave the theatre for Harry Potter Part 8, i noticed one person's name was Warwick! I thought that was hilarious, because i thought warwick was a completely made up name! Turns out its not. :-p
Granted, I don't lanewick often, so you're 100% more experienced than me here, but I feel like most of the time making the enemy team build pure defense while you build mainly offense is super good. It's quick, it's a huge advantage midgame, lategame it's kinda negligible but you really turn into a beast lategame anyway and you can never ever have a team that all has MR stacked midgame so you basically ult->q->w->stick kill their carries (or they build MR and don't do any damage) or wipe out their support super super fast.
On July 23 2011 13:26 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: Granted, I don't lanewick often, so you're 100% more experienced than me here, but I feel like most of the time making the enemy team build pure defense while you build mainly offense is super good. It's quick, it's a huge advantage midgame, lategame it's kinda negligible but you really turn into a beast lategame anyway and you can never ever have a team that all has MR stacked midgame so you basically ult->q->w->stick kill their carries (or they build MR and don't do any damage) or wipe out their support super super fast.
This is a good strat if your team has another 'tank/initiator.'
I think a more consistent strategy would be to stack defense of their main damage dealer. Example: I saw a game where Lanewick went dring + boots 1 -> double negatrons to negate (lolz) the midgame burst of the opposing team's annie who was soloing mid and because they had some heavy magic damage.
At this point I'm of the opinion that Warwick is a mediocre jungler at best. Nocturne and Xin are better early game and Amumu and Jarvan are better late (among others). I feel like he brings very little to the table that some other jungler doesn't do better.
On July 30 2011 07:29 arnath wrote: At this point I'm of the opinion that Warwick is a mediocre jungler at best. Nocturne and Xin are better early game and Amumu and Jarvan are better late (among others). I feel like he brings very little to the table that some other jungler doesn't do better.
Oddone's description of Warwick is most apt IMO--he's an all-rounder jungler that, while he doesn't excel at specific aspects, you can easily slot into a role if better options have been picked/banned.
Like, sure, Nocturne and Xin are better early game, but if Amumu and Jarvan are banned/picked, and you need a tank jungler, you're not going to take either of those guys over Warwick.
he feels weaker as a jungler since the heal nerf. I kind of think you have to build jwick assassin now because he has a noticably harder time staying alive in fights. Along with the sunfire nerf tanky builds just don't do as much as they used to on jungle farm
Tried 21/0/9 vs. 9/0/21 for jungling, 21/0/9 came out only 10 seconds ahead on two full clears (5:30 vs. 5:40 for 9/0/21). I don't think that's worth losing out on 3/3 Quickness, 3/3 Intelligence, 3/3 Meditation and 2/2 Utility Mastery.
Also, your hodgepodge of jungle runes seems weird to me... why not just take full AS on marks and quints? It's the only stat that has useful synergies with WW's kit and items (Eternal Thirst, Madred's procs, Wit's End procs, possibly Bloodrazor procs later on). While AS doesn't help his ult, neither do ArPen runes, since Infinite Duress deals Magic damage. The only runes that make sense to me instead of AS are your AD quints (given a particular set of masteries and a particular jungle route).
On July 30 2011 08:50 Zato-1 wrote: Tried 21/0/9 vs. 9/0/21 for jungling, 21/0/9 came out only 10 seconds ahead on two full clears (5:30 vs. 5:40 for 9/0/21). I don't think that's worth losing out on 3/3 Quickness, 3/3 Intelligence, 3/3 Meditation and 2/2 Utility Mastery.
*shrugs*, it's not like the offensive stats disappear come late game. You can do w/e you want and you'll be fine cause it's WW and he really doesn't give a fuck, but I'm just saying that's how I choose to spec him.
On July 30 2011 08:50 Zato-1 wrote: Also, your hodgepodge of jungle runes seems weird to me... why not just take full AS on marks and quints? It's the only stat that has useful synergies with WW's kit and items (Eternal Thirst, Madred's procs, Wit's End procs, possibly Bloodrazor procs later on). While AS doesn't help his ult, neither do ArPen runes, since Infinite Duress deals Magic damage. The only runes that make sense to me instead of AS are your AD quints (given a particular set of masteries and a particular jungle route).
basically 2 parter to this: 1. I use this page on everyone who jungles by autoattacking 2. It's designed largely for flexibility. I can pull all sorts of shit with this complete spec because it lets me do weird stuff like start at wraiths and kill small wraiths in 3 hits.
but aside from that, it still doesn't make sense to spec 100% AS on anyone. I use the same offensive core on Teemo and I run AD Quints and ArPen Marks on him because running that build means I'm autoattacking a lot and as I'm autoattacking a lot, it's worthwhile to make sure each hit is worthwhile on top of just attacking more. So maybe late game I'ma be sad I have 15% less AS, but early game I might just get a kill or be able to do a weird route faster after getting schooled level 1 because I have a spec that deals with it better. basically, don't put all your eggs in one basket.
On July 30 2011 08:50 Zato-1 wrote: Infinite Duress deals Magic damage
false? infinite duress deals mixed. it will deal 33% of your base damage as AD + X dmg in magical, then on-hit stuff like MBR as magical. it also applies red buff if you have it, which does true... so no it's not just magic damage l0l
I jungle WW starting long sword + pot, smite + flash. Build: Razor, Mercs, Wit's End, SV, FHeart, Bloodrazor. For the 6th slot I`m usually unsure and mix it up, but GA or FoN have been my items of choice. The boots/WE/SV leave you at like 120/120 resists, with proc damage that competes with BR (at least at this point) and decent health/cdr for an awesome cheap midgame. When you're building/finished Fheart your damage will start to taper off, just in time for Bloodrazor. Earlier I find it just leaves gaping holes in all your other stats.
WW's flash ult from the jungle is wtfbbq crazy OP in the AP vs. AP mid metagame. Instantly turns lanes into free wins as it's like, 100% unavoidable kill from full health. That's my thoughts on why you should jungle WW these days.
Same is true for WW + Ori, WW + Brand, WW + Malz, WW + Gragas, WW + Alistar, WW + ... etc. AP vs. AP post level 6 is really just a retarded game of footsies where you can combo each other for 80+% of your HP once you have the right opening and WW's Flash + ult is that opening, guaranteed + the extra damage you need to finish it. Real dumb IMO.
On August 05 2011 05:15 arnath wrote: Yeah I still think Warwick is mediocre nowadays but Warwick + Annie mid is pretty hilarious. Just a free kill every time your ults are up.
The only thing I really hate about current WW is how weak he is pre-6 in the jungle (although nothing really changed in that regard to phase WW out).
I've been going early philo on jungle WW a lot and I'm quite a fan of it.
I like madreds > boots > philo > visage > wits > tank items. Either mercs or tabis every game. If I go tabi, I'll get Eleisa's from the philo. I feel like most jungle WW builds really neglect mp5 and make you super blue reliant and Eleisa's really makes me feel comfortable giving up early blue to my AP.
That was the old school ww route. While it may look faster in that video, there's a couple of things worth mentioning here.
First, this video is old and predates the changes made to the jungle creeps and to ww's healing. Also, starting blue helps you to get your red buff faster, with more hp and you can really put alot of early pressure on the enemy lanes with it, even without your ulti. It's not uncommon to see laners burning flash to get away from a level 3/4 ww with red buff, particularly as most people think that WW isn't a threat until level 6.
Run this path on Warwick. It's flat out better than the blue to golems clear.
The tradeoff between a blue clear and a small clear is the same on Warwick as it is for any other jungler--you rush 6 faster, but you delay your red gank and are positioned rather remotely and can't respond that well to early counterjungling. Additionally, if the enemy starts blue, you'll have double buff and level 5 when their 2nd blue spawns, so you set yourself up to contest it so long as the adjacent lanes are in a position to help.
Pros for it on Warwick: - His level 6 gank is 10000x better than his pre-6 gank, so rushing 6 is nice. - You don't gain much from a faster red gank, since your pre-6 gank sucks.
Cons for it on Warwick: - Warwick's early clearing is pretty mana heavy, so the speed gain from a small clear isn't that great, as blue speeds you quite a bit from the mana/CDR. - You're not that strong of a 1v1er at level 5 (much stronger at 6), so the ability to contest the enemy blue isn't hugely usable. - Warwick is already extremely slow and has trouble responding to early counterjungling. Starting minigolems cedes all semblance of control at early levels.
Ww's pre 6 gank isn't even that bad tbh. Just open with an auto instead of q and you garentee several red hits thanks to w. If your lane has a stun it's a free kill
Also my new jungle ww build has razer->mobilities as core and it's legit as fuck. Mobos synchronizes disgustingly well with ww's e
On August 05 2011 05:15 arnath wrote: Yeah I still think Warwick is mediocre nowadays but Warwick + Annie mid is pretty hilarious. Just a free kill every time your ults are up.
I just played a game yesterday with my brother going WW and Annie in the lane and it was pretty enjoyable just saying "Your ult up? Ok go" An enemy has been slain.
I am very noob to LoL though (play when burnt out on SC@) Any suggestions for item builds for someone not as familiar with the game. I know it takes time and experience, which I hope to get here in the future, but when I read the items to purchase in response to seeing this and that I'm a little lost.
Any general simplified items that I could just get every game until I'm more comfortable? If that's the completely wrong way to go about it just tell me, I'm open to learning
On August 05 2011 05:15 arnath wrote: Yeah I still think Warwick is mediocre nowadays but Warwick + Annie mid is pretty hilarious. Just a free kill every time your ults are up.
I just played a game yesterday with my brother going WW and Annie in the lane and it was pretty enjoyable just saying "Your ult up? Ok go" An enemy has been slain.
I am very noob to LoL though (play when burnt out on SC@) Any suggestions for item builds for someone not as familiar with the game. I know it takes time and experience, which I hope to get here in the future, but when I read the items to purchase in response to seeing this and that I'm a little lost.
Any general simplified items that I could just get every game until I'm more comfortable? If that's the completely wrong way to go about it just tell me, I'm open to learning
The stuff in the OP is a very solid and standard build. Just stick with that until you get more familiar with WW then you can start experimenting/changing things up in accordance with your playstyle.
On August 05 2011 05:15 arnath wrote: Yeah I still think Warwick is mediocre nowadays but Warwick + Annie mid is pretty hilarious. Just a free kill every time your ults are up.
I just played a game yesterday with my brother going WW and Annie in the lane and it was pretty enjoyable just saying "Your ult up? Ok go" An enemy has been slain.
I am very noob to LoL though (play when burnt out on SC@) Any suggestions for item builds for someone not as familiar with the game. I know it takes time and experience, which I hope to get here in the future, but when I read the items to purchase in response to seeing this and that I'm a little lost.
Any general simplified items that I could just get every game until I'm more comfortable? If that's the completely wrong way to go about it just tell me, I'm open to learning
The stuff in the OP is a very solid and standard build. Just stick with that until you get more familiar with WW then you can start experimenting/changing things up in accordance with your playstyle.
Ok thanks, it's hard for me to tell what builds are playstyle specific if that make sense. If this is probably the most simple and solid way to go about playing Warwick, thanks for the input and thanks OP
Edit: The reformatting greatly helps! Thanks again.
Hmm... I'll try around with GA over Sunfire, the missing HP sounds kinda gay though. Resists and healing don't matter if your "buffer HP" does get too low too quickly.
For jungle routes you should maybe add my personal favorite Wraithjack -> Wolves -> Blue -> Gank sidelane/their jungle at red, try it! =P
If you can get away with the Wraithjack at lvl 1 this consistently leads me to hilarious ganks at lvl 3, especially when your team is on the left side.
"LOL IMA PUSH TOP AND GO B AT LVL 4 CAUSE IM VS WW JUNGLE AND HE NEEDS RED ANYWAY" "Nope!"
When you're doing blue with that route there's 3 possibilites: a) Your top is pushing -> call him+mid to gank their jungle at red b) Their top is pushing -> lvl 3 gank him c) They're in the middle/your top is too low/has no cc to gank -> Keep jungling towards your bottom jungle.
Also I don't know about you haters, but I think that 21 utility is crap on WW (no dmg/junglespeed) and I think that 21 offense is bad, too (MS+buffduration 2 strong). 15/0/15 ftw.
Edit: On sunfire again. I believe one of the main reasons for Sunfire vs GA should be if you want to be ignored or not. Sunfire makes you a higher priority target, GA a lower priority target. Usually I prefer to have more "heat" on me, that's why I usually opt for Sunfire.
I tend to think most of the benifit of GA is mental. You are able to buy a bit of extra survivability simply from the standpoint of the enemy team seeing your GA and going "oh shit he has ga, dont focus ww," whereas I think funfire probably makes you tankier. But anyways, just get both IMO.
On September 27 2011 01:09 r.Evo wrote: For jungle routes you should maybe add my personal favorite Wraithjack -> Wolves -> Blue -> Gank sidelane/their jungle at red, try it! =P
This only works if their jungler finds out about the wraith-jack by physically passing the wraith camp. If they CV you doing delayed wolves/blue and have half a brain, they have all the time in the world to take your minis/your wraiths (depending on how fast they are), which is very hard for you to respond to unless your adjacent lane is winning ridiculously hard.
If you're doing a red side counterjungle start, IMO you need to commit to team-stealing their wraiths+red or minigols+red. Warwick's comparatively slow jungling means that vs. lots of faster junglers, they can just rotate to your red side and take more than you got out of just doing their wraiths.
Just dropping in to say that I am a fan of Lane Warwick (solo top) and prefer a more Q spammy build maxing R > Q > E > W
Generally I go Chalice of Harmony to deal with all mana issues, followed by Spirit Visage and Glacial Shroud for cooldown reduction and defensive stats. Then I'll either finish Frozen Heart or make a Guardian Angel depending on what's going on/what's needed.
The advantage of building this way over a more auto attack oriented style is that you get higher defensive stats. Warwick, when built this way, becomes nearly unkillable as his Q will heal him for massive amounts while he has very high armor/magic resist to absorb tons of damage. His Q on a short cooldown of about 3 seconds will also cause very consistent damage pretty rapidly. In team fights, you can't be ignored, yet can't be focused - the foundation of any great tank.
The main disadvantage of building WW this way is the lack of pushing power. Clearing creep waves like this takes a long time as he has low attack speed and low auto attack damage. This is generally fine on a solo top as you really need your team to break you out of afk-farm mode into the actual game anyway, but it really is one of the things that makes a character like Singed so great as he instantly clears a wave, then goes to cause mayhem about the map.
Even so, in many games as Warwick, this build has yielded the most consistent performance. I can see where building expensive auto attack items would be better in situations where you are getting FED perhaps, but in general, you can't go wrong or get shut down building a Q-spam oriented build.
On September 28 2011 00:04 Therapist. wrote: Just dropping in to say that I am a fan of Lane Warwick (solo top) and prefer a more Q spammy build maxing R > Q > E > W
Generally I go Chalice of Harmony to deal with all mana issues, followed by Spirit Visage and Glacial Shroud for cooldown reduction and defensive stats. Then I'll either finish Frozen Heart or make a Guardian Angel depending on what's going on/what's needed.
The advantage of building this way over a more auto attack oriented style is that you get higher defensive stats. Warwick, when built this way, becomes nearly unkillable as his Q will heal him for massive amounts while he has very high armor/magic resist to absorb tons of damage. His Q on a short cooldown of about 3 seconds will also cause very consistent damage pretty rapidly. In team fights, you can't be ignored, yet can't be focused - the foundation of any great tank.
The main disadvantage of building WW this way is the lack of pushing power. Clearing creep waves like this takes a long time as he has low attack speed and low auto attack damage. This is generally fine on a solo top as you really need your team to break you out of afk-farm mode into the actual game anyway, but it really is one of the things that makes a character like Singed so great as he instantly clears a wave, then goes to cause mayhem about the map.
Even so, in many games as Warwick, this build has yielded the most consistent performance. I can see where building expensive auto attack items would be better in situations where you are getting FED perhaps, but in general, you can't go wrong or get shut down building a Q-spam oriented build.
On September 27 2011 04:07 Two_DoWn wrote: I tend to think most of the benifit of GA is mental. You are able to buy a bit of extra survivability simply from the standpoint of the enemy team seeing your GA and going "oh shit he has ga, dont focus ww," whereas I think funfire probably makes you tankier. But anyways, just get both IMO.
That makes no sense. The reason GA is awesome is because, if you don't focus him, he heals all day. If you do, you have to wait another 3 seconds for the GA to revive giving you 750 HP (which is 300 more than a sunfire) and then they have to switch back to attacking you when you can instantly Q or run away and all this time you have 4 teammates 3 of which do more damage than you do.
Sure, if you lose a teamfight and GA GA is ARGUABLY worse than sunfire but it gives way more resists and since WW heals so much it's still probably better.
Sunfire is only going to be good if you can justify the 35 magic damage per second and very few champs make use of it these days. (I guess jarvan with his R, amumu, pheonix udyr but it's bad on him)
Sunfire would pretty much never get built at this point if there were better build paths from giant's belt, but basically every thing that builds from giant's belt is super-niche.
On September 28 2011 00:04 Therapist. wrote: Just dropping in to say that I am a fan of Lane Warwick (solo top) and prefer a more Q spammy build maxing R > Q > E > W
Generally I go Chalice of Harmony to deal with all mana issues, followed by Spirit Visage and Glacial Shroud for cooldown reduction and defensive stats. Then I'll either finish Frozen Heart or make a Guardian Angel depending on what's going on/what's needed.
The advantage of building this way over a more auto attack oriented style is that you get higher defensive stats. Warwick, when built this way, becomes nearly unkillable as his Q will heal him for massive amounts while he has very high armor/magic resist to absorb tons of damage. His Q on a short cooldown of about 3 seconds will also cause very consistent damage pretty rapidly. In team fights, you can't be ignored, yet can't be focused - the foundation of any great tank.
The main disadvantage of building WW this way is the lack of pushing power. Clearing creep waves like this takes a long time as he has low attack speed and low auto attack damage. This is generally fine on a solo top as you really need your team to break you out of afk-farm mode into the actual game anyway, but it really is one of the things that makes a character like Singed so great as he instantly clears a wave, then goes to cause mayhem about the map.
Even so, in many games as Warwick, this build has yielded the most consistent performance. I can see where building expensive auto attack items would be better in situations where you are getting FED perhaps, but in general, you can't go wrong or get shut down building a Q-spam oriented build.
ლ(ಠ益ಠლ) poster, y u no read OP?
Just giving my own viewpoint, ordering, and explanations.
Why? Especially when the guide covers it. I thought the point of having 1 guide thread is that people can discuss or contribute something, not just post your 2 cents despite the guide covering it already?
On September 28 2011 03:24 Slayer91 wrote: Why? Especially when the guide covers it. I thought the point of having 1 guide thread is that people can discuss or contribute something, not just post your 2 cents despite the guide covering it already?
Apparently the point of this thread is for everyone to rail me for contributing.
well yea that is generally what happens when you give bad advice.
The point of guide threads are for people to get a basic sense of how to play a new character, so you can see why people are quick to shoot down something that isn't very good so people are not confused.
On August 25 2011 03:17 Mogwai wrote: Sunfire efficiency numbers: 45 Armor = 750 gold 450 HP = 1187.5 gold Toal = 1937.5 gold for 2610 gold
So you're paying about 662.5 gold for 35 magic damage per second in an aura.
GA efficiency numbers 68 Armor = 1133.3 gold 38 MRes = 633.3 gold Total = 1766.6 gold for 2600 gold
So you're paying 833.3 gold for 750 HP, 375 Mana resurrection every 5 minutes.
Frankly, on WW, where you have so much natural healing that favors resists over straight up HP , I just think GA is better.
subtopic... I now build hp without a care on self healers. realized that if your heals are repeated, they multiply off raw hp as well as armor/mr, because taking more hits means your cooldown refreshes more before you die = more heals.
On September 28 2011 03:49 Brees wrote: well yea that is generally what happens when you give bad advice.
The point of guide threads are for people to get a basic sense of how to play a new character, so you can see why people are quick to shoot down something that isn't very good so people are not confused.
It's more like the exact build he suggests is in the guide (except wits end and bloodrazors are in there as well) so all he did was add some flowery language.
On September 28 2011 00:04 Therapist. wrote: Just dropping in to say that I am a fan of Lane Warwick (solo top) and prefer a more Q spammy build maxing R > Q > E > W
Generally I go Chalice of Harmony to deal with all mana issues, followed by Spirit Visage and Glacial Shroud for cooldown reduction and defensive stats. Then I'll either finish Frozen Heart or make a Guardian Angel depending on what's going on/what's needed.
The advantage of building this way over a more auto attack oriented style is that you get higher defensive stats. Warwick, when built this way, becomes nearly unkillable as his Q will heal him for massive amounts while he has very high armor/magic resist to absorb tons of damage. His Q on a short cooldown of about 3 seconds will also cause very consistent damage pretty rapidly. In team fights, you can't be ignored, yet can't be focused - the foundation of any great tank.
The main disadvantage of building WW this way is the lack of pushing power. Clearing creep waves like this takes a long time as he has low attack speed and low auto attack damage. This is generally fine on a solo top as you really need your team to break you out of afk-farm mode into the actual game anyway, but it really is one of the things that makes a character like Singed so great as he instantly clears a wave, then goes to cause mayhem about the map.
Even so, in many games as Warwick, this build has yielded the most consistent performance. I can see where building expensive auto attack items would be better in situations where you are getting FED perhaps, but in general, you can't go wrong or get shut down building a Q-spam oriented build.
ლ(ಠ益ಠლ) poster, y u no read OP?
Just giving my own viewpoint, ordering, and explanations.
I mean, you do realize that the OP discusses roughly the exact same Lanewick build you described? Your post literally contributed nothing new and only served to make me question why I even bother writing anything when apparently no one is fucking reading it.
On August 25 2011 03:17 Mogwai wrote: Sunfire efficiency numbers: 45 Armor = 750 gold 450 HP = 1187.5 gold Toal = 1937.5 gold for 2610 gold
So you're paying about 662.5 gold for 35 magic damage per second in an aura.
GA efficiency numbers 68 Armor = 1133.3 gold 38 MRes = 633.3 gold Total = 1766.6 gold for 2600 gold
So you're paying 833.3 gold for 750 HP, 375 Mana resurrection every 5 minutes.
Frankly, on WW, where you have so much natural healing that favors resists over straight up HP , I just think GA is better.
subtopic... I now build hp without a care on self healers. realized that if your heals are repeated, they multiply off raw hp as well as armor/mr, because taking more hits means your cooldown refreshes more before you die = more heals.
Uhhhh, nope. They don't multiply off raw hp. Raw hp serves as a buffer to make sure you don't die before you can heal. Resists serve as multipliers. I know what you're trying to say, but multiply is the wrong word. Try building Warmog's on Warwick, then come back here and tell me that you don't think you would've been better off just buying 2 chain vests and 2 negatron cloaks.
On September 28 2011 00:04 Therapist. wrote: Just dropping in to say that I am a fan of Lane Warwick (solo top) and prefer a more Q spammy build maxing R > Q > E > W
Generally I go Chalice of Harmony to deal with all mana issues, followed by Spirit Visage and Glacial Shroud for cooldown reduction and defensive stats. Then I'll either finish Frozen Heart or make a Guardian Angel depending on what's going on/what's needed.
The advantage of building this way over a more auto attack oriented style is that you get higher defensive stats. Warwick, when built this way, becomes nearly unkillable as his Q will heal him for massive amounts while he has very high armor/magic resist to absorb tons of damage. His Q on a short cooldown of about 3 seconds will also cause very consistent damage pretty rapidly. In team fights, you can't be ignored, yet can't be focused - the foundation of any great tank.
The main disadvantage of building WW this way is the lack of pushing power. Clearing creep waves like this takes a long time as he has low attack speed and low auto attack damage. This is generally fine on a solo top as you really need your team to break you out of afk-farm mode into the actual game anyway, but it really is one of the things that makes a character like Singed so great as he instantly clears a wave, then goes to cause mayhem about the map.
Even so, in many games as Warwick, this build has yielded the most consistent performance. I can see where building expensive auto attack items would be better in situations where you are getting FED perhaps, but in general, you can't go wrong or get shut down building a Q-spam oriented build.
ლ(ಠ益ಠლ) poster, y u no read OP?
Just giving my own viewpoint, ordering, and explanations.
I mean, you do realize that the OP discusses roughly the exact same Lanewick build you described? Your post literally contributed nothing new and only served to make me question why I even bother writing anything when apparently no one is fucking reading it.
On August 25 2011 03:17 Mogwai wrote: Sunfire efficiency numbers: 45 Armor = 750 gold 450 HP = 1187.5 gold Toal = 1937.5 gold for 2610 gold
So you're paying about 662.5 gold for 35 magic damage per second in an aura.
GA efficiency numbers 68 Armor = 1133.3 gold 38 MRes = 633.3 gold Total = 1766.6 gold for 2600 gold
So you're paying 833.3 gold for 750 HP, 375 Mana resurrection every 5 minutes.
Frankly, on WW, where you have so much natural healing that favors resists over straight up HP , I just think GA is better.
subtopic... I now build hp without a care on self healers. realized that if your heals are repeated, they multiply off raw hp as well as armor/mr, because taking more hits means your cooldown refreshes more before you die = more heals.
Uhhhh, nope. They don't multiply off raw hp. Raw hp serves as a buffer to make sure you don't die before you can heal. Resists serve as multipliers. I know what you're trying to say, but multiply is the wrong word. Try building Warmog's on Warwick, then come back here and tell me that you don't think you would've been better off just buying 2 chain vests and 2 negatron cloaks.
I assume it doesn't multiply at the same efficiency, but yeah... it does multiply over the course of a fight. If you are going at somebody and you have twice as much hp, you'll get twice as many Q cooldowns before you die and you get to heal more. Like... I wouldn't buy warmogs, but if an item favors hp over resists, I'm totally fine with that.
On September 28 2011 03:52 UniversalSnip wrote: subtopic... I now build hp without a care on self healers. realized that if your heals are repeated, they multiply off raw hp as well as armor/mr, because taking more hits means your cooldown refreshes more before you die = more heals.
While this is true, your survivability scaling is still better buying resists over HP.
Some math-crafting:
EHP = K * (HP + Healing) * Resists -- that is, your EHP is related to the product of your HP and healing and your resists-fairly straightforward Healing = C * EHP -- again straightforward, this is simply putting an equation to "the longer you live, the more healing you get to do".
Throw the 2nd equation into the first, and you get: EHP = K * HP * Resists/(1- C * Resists)
This means that EHP scales linearly off of HP, and grows asymptotically in a manner similar to x/(1-x) off of resists--with the asymptote representing the point where your resists make it so that you outheal the rate of damage dealt to you (and hence where you have infinite EHP).
At lower points on the curve, where your rate of healing is comparatively low, the EHP scaling approximates the normal growth where balancing HP and resists is better. As the rate of healing becomes more significant, resist stacking becomes far, far better.
On September 28 2011 04:29 UniversalSnip wrote: ^--- this is pretty much exactly what I thought, thank you. Just a lower breakpoint for armor/mr on self healers
considering how much self healing WW has and how much base HP he has, his breaking point for resists vs. HP is really absurdly low.
On September 28 2011 04:29 UniversalSnip wrote: ^--- this is pretty much exactly what I thought, thank you. Just a lower breakpoint for armor/mr on self healers
considering how much self healing WW has and how much base HP he has, his breaking point for resists vs. HP is really absurdly low.
There's also the fact that CDR arguably supercedes both resists and HP because it scales both your survivability (through healing rate) AND damage dealt. And by the time you've capped CDR you have high enough resists and healing rate to make resist stacking beyond that point better than buying HP.
Can someone please post some jungle matchups for WW? Specifically, Udyr/Rammus being so popular these days, where they can constantly steal your jungle while keeping their side entirely clear. The simple answer would be wards, but in solo queues most supports don't know to ward the jungle entrance properly.
On November 09 2011 05:25 Sandster wrote: Can someone please post some jungle matchups for WW? Specifically, Udyr/Rammus being so popular these days, where they can constantly steal your jungle while keeping their side entirely clear. The simple answer would be wards, but in solo queues most supports don't know to ward the jungle entrance properly.
if you start small gols, and have your team protect an immediate wraith jack, rammus and udyr can't really fuck with your early path much. Start blue is pretty much a guarantee way to get yourself counterjungled into oblivion.
The best defense against counterjungling is a solid counter-counterjungle path. Warwick's a little hard to play early but if you can master the art of reading your opponent's paths by items and starting point you'll do fine. I love to counterjungle, but I think it takes a lot of experience to know when you can safely get away with it and if it will actually set you ahead. My two favorites are wolf with help -> blue with leash -> their twin golems -> evaluate and blue with leash -> wraith jack -> your wolves.
A few questions for SmashGizmo (all for jungle WW):
-Last edit on OP is from 23rd of August, so I'm just asking to know if you still do the same things: 21/0/9? OP Runes?
-Wriggles, you say in your OP that you prefer to leave it as Razor and rush Wit's End, but now it seems everyone goes Wriggles. What has changed? IMO its a 600 gold investment (and delay of other items) that allows you to lifesteal better, but doesnt make you hit harder or really survive that better in early teamfights, where autoattacks are not as important as later on.
-When fed, lets say you have Razor, Mercs, SV, Wits End and GA, next item Bloodrazor or Triforce? (Reread OP, answered there.)
600 gold for 7 armor, 8 AD, 18% lifesteal, 5% Madred's proc chance, and ward. Even if you consider the lifesteal to be minimally useful, the gold efficiency isn't bad. It's not amazing, but you're getting like 400 gold worth of armor + AD, plus all the secondary utility stuff. The only reason to keep Razors is if you feel you're realistically going to finish Bloodrazor at a point in the game where it'll still matter.
IIRC Lapaka and SV have been buying Wriggle's on WW for at least the last 6 months, and I remember Dan Dinh doing it almost a year ago. It's not a recent change in how people play WW at all.
IMO the wriggles choice depends a lot on how you are going to play out the rest of the game.
Need MR? Leave the madreds and get Wits End. Need Damage? Leave the madreds, build intermediate defense, then finish Madreds Razor. Need Armor? Build Wriggles.
On November 09 2011 09:22 Two_DoWn wrote: IMO the wriggles choice depends a lot on how you are going to play out the rest of the game.
Need MR? Leave the madreds and get Wits End. Need Damage? Leave the madreds, build intermediate defense, then finish Madreds Razor. Need Armor? Build Wriggles.
nah, wriggles is pretty mandatory for jungle speed and control and since everyone auto attacks, armor and lifesteal are always good especially on someone who likes to be at the center of a fight. unless the opposing team is 5 AP or something your thought process should be
am i playing warwick? wriggles. am i playing warwick and fed unbelievably hard somehow? rush a big item like wit's and finish wriggles later
On November 09 2011 08:20 -Kato- wrote: A few questions for SmashGizmo (all for jungle WW):
-Last edit on OP is from 23rd of August, so I'm just asking to know if you still do the same things: 21/0/9? OP Runes?
-Wriggles, you say in your OP that you prefer to leave it as Razor and rush Wit's End, but now it seems everyone goes Wriggles. What has changed? IMO its a 600 gold investment (and delay of other items) that allows you to lifesteal better, but doesnt make you hit harder or really survive that better in early teamfights, where autoattacks are not as important as later on.
-When fed, lets say you have Razor, Mercs, SV, Wits End and GA, next item Bloodrazor or Triforce? (Reread OP, answered there.)
Same runes and masteries except I've taken 3 out of attack speed mastery and put 3 into crit damage mastery. Reason below.
I always go wriggle's now. The reason is that I realized that bloodrazor basically sucks donkey dick and that I'd literally always rather have wriggle's + wit's end + triforce as my offensive core. It just gives better utility and honestly seems to do a lot more damage in realistic scenarios. And with that said, I now build enough crit to be cool with crit damage > AS masteries.
I'd never really end up with that build these days because I'd basically always have wriggles + phage + wit's end + GA @ that point instead. And I'd always go triforce. Goddamn yo, bloodrazor sucks, I should edit the OP soon.
What's the consensus on WW post-patch? I'm thinking 21/9/0 would be pretty standard, with 5 points split between armor/MR/hp in the defense tree as you see fit:
With the standard arpen+AS reds+quints, armor yellow, and AS (or MR) blue. It seems like every other jungler is becoming much stronger, and so Bladed Armor is necessary to keep up (for wolves+wraiths bottlenecks). With a decent pull on wolves WW should be able to clear all 3 wolves before blue now, instead of just 1-2 like before. I'm guessing Havoc/Executioner works on both R and Q, but i'm not 100% sure on Q.
Only thing I'm not sure about is whether 0.5% damage (3rd point in havoc) is better than 2 minion damage (2nd point in butcher). Havoc seems pretty weak; 0.5% damage on your mid/late game R (~900 damage with Wit's End, before resistances) is only 4.5 total damage, compared to 2 extra minion damage on every swing that helps with your clear time.
One thing to note is that with the XP buff to jungle monsters, the XP mastery fills in the effect of what XP quints used to do, and lets you hit 6 1 camp sooner on rush-6 paths (minis->wraiths->wolves->blue->etc.). Not that useful for normal paths, but worth considering with defensive rush-6 paths.
On November 16 2011 06:59 TheYango wrote: One thing to note is that with the XP buff to jungle monsters, the XP mastery fills in the effect of what XP quints used to do, and lets you hit 6 1 camp sooner on rush-6 paths (minis->wraiths->wolves->blue->etc.). Not that useful for normal paths, but worth considering with defensive rush-6 paths.
mr. mathcraft you should check to see how fast exp quints, exp util, zilean passive, and the new camp exp gets you to 6! could be very interesting with ww and other level 6 gankers
From reddit the new exp values. These may have changed already based on some Shaco players complaining that Wraith + Golems + Red isn't enough for level 3.
SMALL WOLF: 55 (+5) BIG WOLF: 101 (+11) SMALL WRAITH: 20 (unchanged) BIG WRAITH: 121 (+1) SMALL GOLEM: 141 (+1) BLUE GOLEM: 221 (+1) SMALL LIZARD: 30 (unchanged) RED LIZARD: 201 (+1)
Right now the first two passes (small camps + blue, small camps + red) garner 1890 exp. Here's the exp you'll get with various mastery/rune/Zilean combinations and what camps it'll subsequently take to hit 6.
Awareness: 1984.5 (Mini-golems + Wolves, Wraiths don't give enough) Quints: 2003.4 (Mini-golems + Wolves, Wraiths still don't give enough) Zilean: 2041.2 (Mini-golems + either Wolves or Wraiths) Awareness + Quints: 2097.9 (any two small camps) Awareness + Quints + Zilean: 2249.1 (Mini-Golems or Wolves)
On December 30 2011 23:16 Sponkz wrote: So is anyone playing lanewick anymore or is just me? He feels so bloody good against common top laners atm.
Picked him up after looking for a top laner that was neither AP nor fotm. The only matchup I'm REALLY struggling with at the moment is Riven, rest is pretty cake. CDRWick is soooo good. Also, if you manage to magically push your lane, he is one of the best top laners to gank mid, and I really like that about him. It helps a lot in solo Q.
On December 30 2011 23:16 Sponkz wrote: So is anyone playing lanewick anymore or is just me? He feels so bloody good against common top laners atm.
He's just hard to move off lane, but i think he can get fairly out farmed by a decent solo top riven, or nasus.
I don't see him getting outfarmed, granted you are good. Yes, farming on him is a pain, but he's insanely hard to zone. Riven might accomplish that, I don't see Nasus ever coming close to outfarming you. You can literally just stand in his creeps and lasthit them. He might outscale you, but that's a whole different story.
So yeah i've been playing a few rankeds again with him. Currently 6-1, and i feel he's really that utility bot i enjoy.
Mpen reds, hp5 quints, arm seals, flat mres glyphs. flash/ignite
I basicly took the masteries smash recommended for jungle. 23/6/1 with 3/3 in hardiness and resistance in defense. Not quite sure yet if 0/21/9 or 9/21/0 is better, i feel like i have more impact in team fights with those masteries, dealing more damage.
Against ap: Boots+3hpots/null+2hpots -> Chalice -> SV -> Glacial -> Wits, with mercs Against ad: Cloth5 -> Wriggles -> Chain vest -> Wit's end -> Frozen, with mercs aswell.
I feel like if you need something like reverie or starks you can pick it up later on in the game i don't find a philo rush early that useful, but will try out some more.
I don't like warwick anywhere right now tbh. He doesn't feel that great top lane and his jungling got pretty badly hit with his quick-6 path time going up by like 1-2 minutes.
On January 04 2012 00:59 Mogwai wrote: I don't like warwick anywhere right now tbh. He doesn't feel that great top lane and his jungling got pretty badly hit with his quick-6 path time going up by like 1-2 minutes.
On January 04 2012 00:59 Mogwai wrote: I don't like warwick anywhere right now tbh. He doesn't feel that great top lane and his jungling got pretty badly hit with his quick-6 path time going up by like 1-2 minutes.
He has been subpar for a long time now
well, if you think he was subpar pre jungle change, you're basically just wrong and I don't know what else I'm supposed to tell you.
if you think he was as good as lee sin, nocturne, udyr, or other top junglers pre jungle change, you're basically just wrong and I don't know what else I'm supposed to tell you
On January 04 2012 11:38 jtype wrote: Actually, just prior to the jungle change, WW was dominating quite a lot in high level play and was verging on FoTM.
On January 04 2012 11:21 novalight wrote: if you think he was as good as lee sin, nocturne, udyr, or other top junglers pre jungle change, you're basically just wrong and I don't know what else I'm supposed to tell you
you could start by explaining how the fuck any of them compared to an 80% AS steroid with a > 50% uptime and 40% AS to your whole team during that duration and a 20% HP nuke that healed you for 80% of that HP and a nearly 2 second supression with crazy damage in the lategame. WW's lategame makes all of their late games look like a goddamn joke, problem is that there's no such thing as a lategame jungler anymore, but back in the day, there was such a thing and WW was the top of the pack.
On January 04 2012 11:21 novalight wrote: if you think he was as good as lee sin, nocturne, udyr, or other top junglers pre jungle change, you're basically just wrong and I don't know what else I'm supposed to tell you
User was warned for this post
Warwick's ganks post 6 are the strongest out of all junglers, that's never even been up for discussion. His big problem was that he was a bad ganker pre 6 and since the dragon change a year and a half ago he couldn't abuse level 3/4 dragons like he used to be able to. That's literally the ONLY REASON people changed their mind about ww. Even after the W nerfs (after nerf after nerf) he's still retarded strong in the right comps. He's no longer the very best jungle pick period like he was for 2 years but he's still just as competitive as any other jungle pick.
Also lol you have no idea who you were talking to there, huh?
On January 04 2012 11:21 novalight wrote: if you think he was as good as lee sin, nocturne, udyr, or other top junglers pre jungle change, you're basically just wrong and I don't know what else I'm supposed to tell you
User was warned for this post
Warwick's ganks post 6 are the strongest out of all junglers, that's never even been up for discussion. His big problem was that he was a bad ganker pre 6 and since the dragon change a year and a half ago he couldn't abuse level 3/4 dragons like he used to be able to. That's literally the ONLY REASON people changed their mind about ww. Even after the W nerfs (after nerf after nerf) he's still retarded strong in the right comps. He's no longer the very best jungle pick period like he was for 2 years but he's still just as competitive as any other jungle pick.
Also lol you have no idea who you were talking to there, huh?
do you still play him 5hit? I can't bring myself to play WW nowadays because he needs farm so badly and the only way to get gold in the new jungle is to lane camp early and often or to stack gold/10s and WW does neither very well. can you just bite the bullet and run some ghetto fast 6 route and then just ult on every CD?
I cant do it just because of the fact that playing WW basically says "I trust my team to not need me to constantly pressure the enemy from jungle and not feed like crazy while I farm."
Which is pretty much the WORST solo q mentality you can have.
And I believe Saint is trying to pressure Classik into giving WW e a buff- something like an active speed increase when pressed like move quick, which would help ww out a lot.
I also personally think they should change blood scent so that you can only see that warwick sees you if you have sight of ww. Makes setting up ganks a lot easier, and doesnt bone you quite so hard late game.
On January 04 2012 11:21 novalight wrote: if you think he was as good as lee sin, nocturne, udyr, or other top junglers pre jungle change, you're basically just wrong and I don't know what else I'm supposed to tell you
User was warned for this post
Warwick's ganks post 6 are the strongest out of all junglers, that's never even been up for discussion. His big problem was that he was a bad ganker pre 6 and since the dragon change a year and a half ago he couldn't abuse level 3/4 dragons like he used to be able to. That's literally the ONLY REASON people changed their mind about ww. Even after the W nerfs (after nerf after nerf) he's still retarded strong in the right comps. He's no longer the very best jungle pick period like he was for 2 years but he's still just as competitive as any other jungle pick.
Also lol you have no idea who you were talking to there, huh?
this, pretty much i still take warwick pretty frequently but only against certain champs. i don't take him if the enemy hasn't taken a jungler and udyr/shy/skarner are open cause getting counterjungled that hard is annoying.
i like to take him against champs that are really position reliant. kogmaw, xerath, ahri, etc. i try not to take him against alistar, and i try not to take him against champs that can press R->win the game. it's no fun jumping onto an ulted swain, kennen, karthus with defile, etc etc.
essentially my gameplan is to tell my teammates to play as safely/passively as possible pre-6, take the second blue then ult gank every lane with blue. usually gets at least 1 kill. then take red and do the same. i don't like to have double buff on ww because (a)he puts himself in harm's way to do damage, making him susceptible to burst, and (b)if you spread your buffs out it's a longer reign of terror.
i've had pretty good luck with ww so far in the new jungle. about to try some duo zil + ww for an even quicker 6, we'll see how it goes
On January 05 2012 03:39 whatsupchan wrote: i still think warwick is fine in top lane but he loses hardcore to riven/tryn so it's easy to see why nobody really picks him right now
would you pick ww if riven/tryn banned, mr whatsupchan????
On January 05 2012 03:39 whatsupchan wrote: i still think warwick is fine in top lane but he loses hardcore to riven/tryn so it's easy to see why nobody really picks him right now
would you pick ww if riven/tryn banned, mr whatsupchan????
Depends on what kind of lane you want: Aggressive or passive?
On January 05 2012 06:12 ManyCookies wrote: Would you pick him for the jungle? Would you pick him against a Rumble?
Would you like Warwick in a house? Would you like Warwick with a mouse?
I do not like him in a house. I do not like him with a mouse. I do not like him here or there. I do not like him anywhere. I do not like green Warwick and ham. I do not like him, Sam-I-am.
On January 04 2012 11:21 novalight wrote: if you think he was as good as lee sin, nocturne, udyr, or other top junglers pre jungle change, you're basically just wrong and I don't know what else I'm supposed to tell you
User was warned for this post
Warwick's ganks post 6 are the strongest out of all junglers, that's never even been up for discussion. His big problem was that he was a bad ganker pre 6 and since the dragon change a year and a half ago he couldn't abuse level 3/4 dragons like he used to be able to. That's literally the ONLY REASON people changed their mind about ww. Even after the W nerfs (after nerf after nerf) he's still retarded strong in the right comps. He's no longer the very best jungle pick period like he was for 2 years but he's still just as competitive as any other jungle pick.
Also lol you have no idea who you were talking to there, huh?
do you still play him 5hit? I can't bring myself to play WW nowadays because he needs farm so badly and the only way to get gold in the new jungle is to lane camp early and often or to stack gold/10s and WW does neither very well. can you just bite the bullet and run some ghetto fast 6 route and then just ult on every CD?
I pick him once in a blue moon when I feel like being cheeky and I always end up dominating super hard with him and going like "wow wtf warwick is so good how come i don't main him" and then i don't ever pick him again.
On January 04 2012 11:21 novalight wrote: if you think he was as good as lee sin, nocturne, udyr, or other top junglers pre jungle change, you're basically just wrong and I don't know what else I'm supposed to tell you
User was warned for this post
Warwick's ganks post 6 are the strongest out of all junglers, that's never even been up for discussion. His big problem was that he was a bad ganker pre 6 and since the dragon change a year and a half ago he couldn't abuse level 3/4 dragons like he used to be able to. That's literally the ONLY REASON people changed their mind about ww. Even after the W nerfs (after nerf after nerf) he's still retarded strong in the right comps. He's no longer the very best jungle pick period like he was for 2 years but he's still just as competitive as any other jungle pick.
Also lol you have no idea who you were talking to there, huh?
do you still play him 5hit? I can't bring myself to play WW nowadays because he needs farm so badly and the only way to get gold in the new jungle is to lane camp early and often or to stack gold/10s and WW does neither very well. can you just bite the bullet and run some ghetto fast 6 route and then just ult on every CD?
I pick him once in a blue moon when I feel like being cheeky and I always end up dominating super hard with him and going like "wow wtf warwick is so good how come i don't main him" and then i don't ever pick him again.
alright, boots opening, red first, W -> E -> level 2 gank is HILARIOUS and always works. WW and I are BFFs again.
On January 04 2012 11:21 novalight wrote: if you think he was as good as lee sin, nocturne, udyr, or other top junglers pre jungle change, you're basically just wrong and I don't know what else I'm supposed to tell you
User was warned for this post
Warwick's ganks post 6 are the strongest out of all junglers, that's never even been up for discussion. His big problem was that he was a bad ganker pre 6 and since the dragon change a year and a half ago he couldn't abuse level 3/4 dragons like he used to be able to. That's literally the ONLY REASON people changed their mind about ww. Even after the W nerfs (after nerf after nerf) he's still retarded strong in the right comps. He's no longer the very best jungle pick period like he was for 2 years but he's still just as competitive as any other jungle pick.
Also lol you have no idea who you were talking to there, huh?
do you still play him 5hit? I can't bring myself to play WW nowadays because he needs farm so badly and the only way to get gold in the new jungle is to lane camp early and often or to stack gold/10s and WW does neither very well. can you just bite the bullet and run some ghetto fast 6 route and then just ult on every CD?
I pick him once in a blue moon when I feel like being cheeky and I always end up dominating super hard with him and going like "wow wtf warwick is so good how come i don't main him" and then i don't ever pick him again.
alright, boots opening, red first, W -> E -> level 2 gank is HILARIOUS and always works. WW and I are BFFs again.
So maybe as a jungler because of the recent jungle creep nerf he can't do it as fast as others- while being available for possible ganks pre-6 (I think he really really needs a red buff at the very least to beable to do anything).. But as stated above his lvl 6 gank is pretty much an auto kill for the team.. I've also seen him solo top a lot on stream(guardsman bob plays him a huge amount) and he seems to always always win his lane. I understand why he wouldn't win v trynda (trynda has a better sustain / dmg out put with no mana requ right?) but why would'nt he win v riven? I've been thinking about buying ww to play to counter ad top (i use udyr for ap...) i dont even know if this is what he counters or if I'm completely wrong, if this is the case correct me . Also I've read/heard people telling me to level R>Q>E>W and some others say that I should stop at lvl 3 E and then max W first, thoughts on this? I think that it makes more sense since you get less of a range boost on ur passive E skill after level 3 and W is just sooo good for your team. . .. This was really poorly written, apologies but I'm tired.
On January 04 2012 11:21 novalight wrote: if you think he was as good as lee sin, nocturne, udyr, or other top junglers pre jungle change, you're basically just wrong and I don't know what else I'm supposed to tell you
User was warned for this post
Warwick's ganks post 6 are the strongest out of all junglers, that's never even been up for discussion. His big problem was that he was a bad ganker pre 6 and since the dragon change a year and a half ago he couldn't abuse level 3/4 dragons like he used to be able to. That's literally the ONLY REASON people changed their mind about ww. Even after the W nerfs (after nerf after nerf) he's still retarded strong in the right comps. He's no longer the very best jungle pick period like he was for 2 years but he's still just as competitive as any other jungle pick.
Also lol you have no idea who you were talking to there, huh?
his ganks arent anything special to be honest, a gank isnt a solo effort. a crippled target takes longer to run the distance a dragon kick knocks you back than ww supresses for.
he seems to be a really badly designed champion. his abilties scale off of ad, except q which is magic damage. but his ult causes magic damage -_-. he has no inate tankyness to burst, so has to build full tank or just die. and his 1 trick pony ult makes him completely ignorable if you just save a stun.
i actually enjoy playing ww he just feels bad at all stages of the game
im almost sure that his ulti gets some buff from ap but i may be wrong.. .However seeing as wits end always seems to be a MUST BUY item (and maybe malady good do some decent things), it's hardly useless
However I think after seeing how op jax will get, I will just use him to counter ad carries bruisers top ^^;:
On January 04 2012 11:21 novalight wrote: if you think he was as good as lee sin, nocturne, udyr, or other top junglers pre jungle change, you're basically just wrong and I don't know what else I'm supposed to tell you
User was warned for this post
Warwick's ganks post 6 are the strongest out of all junglers, that's never even been up for discussion. His big problem was that he was a bad ganker pre 6 and since the dragon change a year and a half ago he couldn't abuse level 3/4 dragons like he used to be able to. That's literally the ONLY REASON people changed their mind about ww. Even after the W nerfs (after nerf after nerf) he's still retarded strong in the right comps. He's no longer the very best jungle pick period like he was for 2 years but he's still just as competitive as any other jungle pick.
Also lol you have no idea who you were talking to there, huh?
his ganks arent anything special to be honest, a gank isnt a solo effort. a crippled target takes longer to run the distance a dragon kick knocks you back than ww supresses for.
he seems to be a really badly designed champion. his abilties scale off of ad, except q which is magic damage. but his ult causes magic damage -_-. he has no inate tankyness to burst, so has to build full tank or just die. and his 1 trick pony ult makes him completely ignorable if you just save a stun.
i actually enjoy playing ww he just feels bad at all stages of the game
I feel like you're completely underestimating how much sustained dps a warwick puts out in fights. His package isn't meant to 1v1 people. He's meant to be a constant source of %hp and auto-attack damage with a single-target flash suppression. When I hear people talk about Warwick being weak as a champion I feel like they missed the first 2 years of this game where he was insanely overpowered. Post-nerfs, sure, he's not the king anymore, but he's not a bad pick either.
My problem with jungle wick right now is that he clears so slowly while his ganking is just as strong as it was in old jungle, so it's an outright nerf to him. He wasn't the most popular pick as it was.
Lanewick is very strong if you're going to win lane. I think that's the main thing though, if you lose lane you won't be effective. That's pretty standard for most people, so it kinda depends on what's popular top lane.
I have never felt warwick in midgame/lategame to be weak. It's just awkward getting there atm.
On January 21 2012 08:59 wei2coolman wrote: So I just started jungling with ww, any advice for builds? This is my current set up. Boots 3pot ->madreds->merc treads->wriggles-> ????
After wriggles I don't know what to build.... I usually get wit's end. But where do I go from here?
there is a guide in the OP, and it's largely up to date, especially in terms of items, altho iirc smash has basically replaced bloodrazor with triforce.
On January 21 2012 08:59 wei2coolman wrote: So I just started jungling with ww, any advice for builds? This is my current set up. Boots 3pot ->madreds->merc treads->wriggles-> ????
After wriggles I don't know what to build.... I usually get wit's end. But where do I go from here?
there is a guide in the OP, and it's largely up to date, especially in terms of items, altho iirc smash has basically replaced bloodrazor with triforce.
I open boots -> wriggle's -> hog -> triforce most games with early zerkers/tabi if I don't need mercs later, and late mercs if I do. wriggle's + trifroce + 2 defensive items of choice + 3rd defensive item or wit's end should be your target end game goal usually
what killed warwick is the shift from ad carry mid to ad carry bot.
He used to be able to just ult your ad(your only source of damage) and then always bite never die from your 4 man tank line.
now that people tend to run huge burst, maybe even 2 AP plus the ad carry...he just has not much place in the game anymore unless your opponents let you get a kill everytime ult is up.
Am I the only who thinks that WW is a terrible jungle pick? I see him being picked all the time and I just don't get it.
He can't can't pre six, but like every other jungler can clear faster than him. His ganks at six are pretty strong but they are very ult reliant. I dunno seems like just picking WW lets the other teams lanes push really hard without fear, meanwhile the opposing jungler laughs and just farms faster than WW can. Suddenly you have lanes being at a disadvantaged because the other team can over extend and you get shit on because the other jungler just has more farm.
So... basically you need a suiper strong early game comp or you just get rolled.
On January 21 2012 13:50 iCanada wrote: Am I the only who thinks that WW is a terrible jungle pick? I see him being picked all the time and I just don't get it.
He can't can't pre six, but like every other jungler can clear faster than him. His ganks at six are pretty strong but they are very ult reliant. I dunno seems like just picking WW lets the other teams lanes push really hard without fear, meanwhile the opposing jungler laughs and just farms faster than WW can. Suddenly you have lanes being at a disadvantaged because the other team can over extend and you get shit on because the other jungler just has more farm.
So... basically you need a suiper strong early game comp or you just get rolled.
I dunno, all I know is I carried with jungle WW, went 19/6/12, while our kennen went 1/12.
Smash, do you always build triforce with your phage? Often I like to build my phage into frozen mallet if i feel i need to be able to stick to someone. I know most games i build FM i'm a tanky fucker who can't die and you can't run from. Although i'm generally a fan of FM on bruisers.
On January 21 2012 14:56 RogerX wrote: Anyone tried Ionic spark on him, if so whats the conclusion?
I haven't done it, but imo I think it's a bad item. It should only be gotten if you're durable enough, and don't need wit's end. I guess you could use as a replacement? He doesn't really need it, but I would like to see how that would work with WW ult.
On another ult. <3 the fucking guide here. so fucking good. Thanks everyone!
On January 21 2012 14:56 RogerX wrote: Anyone tried Ionic spark on him, if so whats the conclusion?
I haven't done it, but imo I think it's a bad item. It should only be gotten if you're durable enough, and don't need wit's end. I guess you could use as a replacement? He doesn't really need it, but I would like to see how that would work with WW ult.
On another ult. <3 the fucking guide here. so fucking good. Thanks everyone!
I think the point is to help WW clear the jungle faster via the AoE proc. Like wriggles, just AoE.
On January 21 2012 14:56 RogerX wrote: Anyone tried Ionic spark on him, if so whats the conclusion?
I haven't done it, but imo I think it's a bad item. It should only be gotten if you're durable enough, and don't need wit's end. I guess you could use as a replacement? He doesn't really need it, but I would like to see how that would work with WW ult.
On another ult. <3 the fucking guide here. so fucking good. Thanks everyone!
I think the point is to help WW clear the jungle faster via the AoE proc. Like wriggles, just AoE.
by the time you get ionic spark, (i'm guessing you get this first?) you should be in your ganking phase, and should rarely be famring up. But then again I'm not some super high elo player.
On January 21 2012 14:56 RogerX wrote: Anyone tried Ionic spark on him, if so whats the conclusion?
I haven't done it, but imo I think it's a bad item. It should only be gotten if you're durable enough, and don't need wit's end. I guess you could use as a replacement? He doesn't really need it, but I would like to see how that would work with WW ult.
On another ult. <3 the fucking guide here. so fucking good. Thanks everyone!
tried him today since he was free and went 7-2-12 ( same assists as support ). I really like him in high elo solo que because you pretty much need to rush to six or you will be wasting your time. Also below ~~1900 lanes would be already lost by the time you are capable of ganking.
here is my build , ( testing the spark )
Also take both arcane knowledge and weapon expertise. I run ghost because i like it better than flash for ganking through the lane and teamfights at dragon.
On a side note i was wondering how would the red hybrid penetration runes work with this build. But i guess it wont be worthed considering u lose 15% AS.
On January 21 2012 19:41 Sponkz wrote: No wriggles? :C
I find it situation. I was doing good and bought the spark ( it really helps out on clearing camps imho ). Buy manual wards. Also you can upgrade to madred as 5th ot 6th slot depending if the game drags on. But honestly most game if u get good ganks they wont last as long. If u have the ionic / wits / madred your ulti seriously hurts , will take 60-70% of range ad's and ap's. Ionic might not be optional but surely is fun as hell =]. Would want to test the damage with a void staff as 6th slot as well in the future in a normal or w/e.
On January 21 2012 14:44 BlackPaladin wrote: Smash, do you always build triforce with your phage? Often I like to build my phage into frozen mallet if i feel i need to be able to stick to someone. I know most games i build FM i'm a tanky fucker who can't die and you can't run from. Although i'm generally a fan of FM on bruisers.
Trinity force is just as good for sticking to people, if not better. it's like, would you rather do a lot more damage or have a bit more HP.
On January 21 2012 19:41 Sponkz wrote: No wriggles? :C
I find it situation. I was doing good and bought the spark ( it really helps out on clearing camps imho ). Buy manual wards. Also you can upgrade to madred as 5th ot 6th slot depending if the game drags on. But honestly most game if u get good ganks they wont last as long. If u have the ionic / wits / madred your ulti seriously hurts , will take 60-70% of range ad's and ap's. Ionic might not be optional but surely is fun as hell =]. Would want to test the damage with a void staff as 6th slot as well in the future in a normal or w/e.
Question on your ionic spark game, Did you feel the ionic spark actually helped? or were you just outplaying hte enemy team?
this is one thing I have problems when trying new builds, is that testing out new builds require A LOT of data points to account for variance, and from what you've shown its only one game.
Also, is that your 3rd item after madreds' and boots? or 4th after wit's end?
ionic spark is a bad item, period. it fills a niche that is just better filled by other items and if you're buying it, you're just doing something wrong, plain and simple.
i don't see any champion ever being better for it than teemo and i tried it on him and it sucked so that pretty much settled it for me. As far as i can tell the item does nothing :h. Spark doesn't even push well, just get a sunfire if you want it for that.
On January 31 2012 13:07 wei2coolman wrote: Okay, been jungling a lot with warwick, now I'm not sure what is a better opening, longsword 1 pot, or boots 3 pot? Probably boots huh?
Well opening boots first is for ganking, and since you're Warwick, I'm thinking no.
I've seen saintvicious recently buying Boots, Pot, Ward, going Wraith -> red with the help of team mates.
Full HP ww lvl2 gank that almost no one expects. Usually forces the enemy solo top to flash. With boots - depending on your solo top - you might even get FB.
On January 04 2012 11:21 novalight wrote: if you think he was as good as lee sin, nocturne, udyr, or other top junglers pre jungle change, you're basically just wrong and I don't know what else I'm supposed to tell you
User was warned for this post
Warwick's ganks post 6 are the strongest out of all junglers, that's never even been up for discussion. His big problem was that he was a bad ganker pre 6 and since the dragon change a year and a half ago he couldn't abuse level 3/4 dragons like he used to be able to. That's literally the ONLY REASON people changed their mind about ww. Even after the W nerfs (after nerf after nerf) he's still retarded strong in the right comps. He's no longer the very best jungle pick period like he was for 2 years but he's still just as competitive as any other jungle pick.
Also lol you have no idea who you were talking to there, huh?
do you still play him 5hit? I can't bring myself to play WW nowadays because he needs farm so badly and the only way to get gold in the new jungle is to lane camp early and often or to stack gold/10s and WW does neither very well. can you just bite the bullet and run some ghetto fast 6 route and then just ult on every CD?
I pick him once in a blue moon when I feel like being cheeky and I always end up dominating super hard with him and going like "wow wtf warwick is so good how come i don't main him" and then i don't ever pick him again.
alright, boots opening, red first, W -> E -> level 2 gank is HILARIOUS and always works. WW and I are BFFs again.
Yeah this works like a charm. You can open boots and go Red first.
Boots and Red first is actually viable? I've been playing LoL again on my account and I'm just stomping my way up the levels. Been playing a lot of Ashe, Kassadin and now Jungle WW is pretty boss. Problem is, if they have a counter-tanky jungler, like Amumu I'm negated or equalized.
On February 01 2012 01:27 Slardar wrote: Boots and Red first is actually viable? I've been playing LoL again on my account and I'm just stomping my way up the levels. Been playing a lot of Ashe, Kassadin and now Jungle WW is pretty boss. Problem is, if they have a counter-tanky jungler, like Amumu I'm negated or equalized.
Like little fancy said, you almost always force a flash or if you're lucky get FB. Between bloodscent and red buff there's no escape ^^
What are current masteries on jungle WW? The stuff in the guide isnt showing up correctly. I'm not really sure where to put them all. 21 offense is pretty nice, but yeah, iunno.
On January 31 2012 13:07 wei2coolman wrote: Okay, been jungling a lot with warwick, now I'm not sure what is a better opening, longsword 1 pot, or boots 3 pot? Probably boots huh?
What are the stats on this? I feel like the difference in clear time with a longsword has to be almost exactly as small as from just getting around faster with boots, plus the boots are usually better for ganks/escapes.
I always go boots.
Best wick build: Mercs Wriggles Wits spirit visage Ionic BT
Really not seing what the Ionic Spark accomplishes for you in there. Your damage is decent and at that point, I would think frozen heart would add a lot more for you than Ionic Spark.
Bring your CDR up for more Qspam, and resists so that you're building in a way that's more in line with WW's role as a guy who loves long, drawn out fights and doesn't need late game damage items because your Q scales off enemy max health.
Also, why BT and ghostblade? Tankyness will take you farther, rather than praying that you can out-lifesteal their burst, KNOW that you can out-tank their burst and then lifesteal it back at your leisure. Also actual lifesteal items aren't as necessary on WW as you make them out to be - you already have a boss Q + wriggles, flat resists are way better.
So basically something like:
Mercs Wriggles Wits [glacial shroud can go here if you want more armor than just wriggles at this point] Spirit Visage Frozen Heart Triforce
Then sell Wriggles for BT.
I just dont see the reasons why you depart from the builds that other people have recommended here. You didn't really give a reason, either.
On February 01 2012 17:09 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: I'm one of those people who like sunfire/FoN/madreds WW. It's not optimal but man does it make me feel oldschool.
sunfire is nice since warwick is awful at clearing big waves of creeps but instead i always end up building frozen heart, wits end, etc zzzzz.
On January 21 2012 13:50 iCanada wrote: Am I the only who thinks that WW is a terrible jungle pick? I see him being picked all the time and I just don't get it.
He can't can't pre six, but like every other jungler can clear faster than him. His ganks at six are pretty strong but they are very ult reliant. I dunno seems like just picking WW lets the other teams lanes push really hard without fear, meanwhile the opposing jungler laughs and just farms faster than WW can. Suddenly you have lanes being at a disadvantaged because the other team can over extend and you get shit on because the other jungler just has more farm.
So... basically you need a suiper strong early game comp or you just get rolled.
I changed my mind. WW just requires a different school of jungling thought than most of the junglers I usually play. He has pretty decent level 2 ganks, and if you start boots any early game counter jungling against WW is suicide.
He does the job of putting out map pressure/control as well as being able to control objectives fairly well. I was just more used to the Udyr/LeeSin/Shyvana "farm like a boss and carry hard" style of jungling.
Imma pop the question up again since it went un-noticed, and the OP is out of date for new masteries.
Jungle WW, which masteries do you guys run? 9 in offense looks great, but I also want the extra buff duration... and I want a bunch of stuff from defense... So I dunno what to run.
9/21/0 is what saintvicious runs if it helps you. Get + AS / + Arpen %.
Personally, I play WW mostly as 0/21/9 Lanewick, but when I run him in the jungle, I keep the 21 defense as this is what WW profits most from: + MS, + CDR @18 (= more Q = more damage), + HP @18.
Defense tree also allows you to get away with very few medium HP items (Spirit Visage / Aegis?)
Cool cheers for the reply. That's what I've been running, but i feel bad about missing out on buff duration. Interessting that he takes AS and ARPen as opposed to CD and MPen. I spose it makes sense after thinking about it.
On February 01 2012 16:12 sylverfyre wrote: Really not seing what the Ionic Spark accomplishes for you in there. Your damage is decent and at that point, I would think frozen heart would add a lot more for you than Ionic Spark.
Bring your CDR up for more Qspam, and resists so that you're building in a way that's more in line with WW's role as a guy who loves long, drawn out fights and doesn't need late game damage items because your Q scales off enemy max health.
Also, why BT and ghostblade? Tankyness will take you farther, rather than praying that you can out-lifesteal their burst, KNOW that you can out-tank their burst and then lifesteal it back at your leisure. Also actual lifesteal items aren't as necessary on WW as you make them out to be - you already have a boss Q + wriggles, flat resists are way better.
So basically something like:
Mercs Wriggles Wits [glacial shroud can go here if you want more armor than just wriggles at this point] Spirit Visage Frozen Heart Triforce
Then sell Wriggles for BT.
I just dont see the reasons why you depart from the builds that other people have recommended here. You didn't really give a reason, either.
Sorry, I guess it wasn't clear that my build isn't entirely serious, that's my trollish build for cleaning up teamfights at 1200ELO
i go 9/12/9 on jungle warwick but i could see a case for 9/21/0 buff duration is extremely strong on warwick, in fact i think he might be the best jungle champ to have either buff elongated on (blue buff duration means you can easily get 3 ults off before your blue runs out, giving you awesome ganks thanks to cdr, red buff duration makes his ganks/protecting his jungle that much easier)
On February 02 2012 05:49 Mogwai wrote: i run 21/0/9
defensive tree is pretty mediocre, it's pretty surprising to me to hear everyone rallying around a bunch of points in defensive on WW of all champs.
Yeah, I can see going 9 in defence to grab hardiness, tough skin, and Bladed armor, but other than that... meh. I also like getting free gold from smite, buff duration is stronger because he doesn't need the armor to clear safely, and having BLue longer makes his clear speed faster than grabing Bladed armor does.
On February 02 2012 05:49 Mogwai wrote: i run 21/0/9
defensive tree is pretty mediocre, it's pretty surprising to me to hear everyone rallying around a bunch of points in defensive on WW of all champs.
Meh, I think that you underestimate the D tree a bit. The low level shit is all pretty decent, and the Movespeed/cdr is worth taking imo. You just need to stay away from the stupid shit that is a waste of points.
Plus D synergies pretty well with WW IMO. You arent looking to max auto damage, which is what the O tree is designed to do. D lets you stack up on early tank while you grab wriggles/wits.
IMO the main way you win as a tanky jungle now is by constantly outscaling the enemy damage. If you build defense fast enough, you will win the game. If you dont, you wont. And a head start is always nice.
On February 02 2012 05:49 Mogwai wrote: i run 21/0/9
defensive tree is pretty mediocre, it's pretty surprising to me to hear everyone rallying around a bunch of points in defensive on WW of all champs.
Meh, I think that you underestimate the D tree a bit. The low level shit is all pretty decent, and the Movespeed/cdr is worth taking imo. You just need to stay away from the stupid shit that is a waste of points.
10 gold/smite 6 armor 6 mres 6 HP/level 30 HP -2 damage taken 3% movespeed when above 70% HP 0.45% CDR/level Juggernaut
vs.
3 AD +2 Damage to Minions 4% AS 10% Armor Pen 4% CDR 10% Magic Pen 3% Lifesteal 6 ArPen Executioner
Still don't see it. Initiator still feels like garbage to me, I've never been happy I've taken it (still take it every time I take 21 defensive, it just makes me sad) and I still like I'm flushing my points down the toilet when I spend 7(!!!!) of them on tier 1 masteries that have marginal gold value next to tier 1 offensive shit, whereas Offensive gives me 10%/10% penetration along with considerably faster and equally safe jungling.
On February 02 2012 06:02 Two_DoWn wrote: Plus D synergies pretty well with WW IMO. You arent looking to max auto damage, which is what the O tree is designed to do. D lets you stack up on early tank while you grab wriggles/wits.
WW's whole jungle is about auto damage. D tree works when you're not attacking a lot, I agree, hence why it works with like, tanky Rammus, Malphite, Amumu, etc, but I have to strongly disagree about WW not looking to max auto damage. You're wasting an insanely good steroid if you don't and his whole jungle speed is based on how well he attacks things.
On February 02 2012 06:02 Two_DoWn wrote: IMO the main way you win as a tanky jungle now is by constantly outscaling the enemy damage. If you build defense fast enough, you will win the game. If you dont, you wont. And a head start is always nice.
Well, sure, if being able to actually outscale their damage on much less farm is even something you can do, but in my experience, I'm just trying to establish early and mid game map presence with junglers and I find the extra jungling speed is vital to WW's ability to do this.
According to Morello's post on the official forums, they are looking to lower warwick's sustain a bit and increase his damage/tweak abilities to give him more jungling speed.
On February 04 2012 22:18 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote: According to Morello's post on the official forums, they are looking to lower warwick's sustain a bit and increase his damage/tweak abilities to give him more jungling speed.
Sigh ... source on this?
I really hope they don't remove Warwick's interesting niche and just turn him into every other speed jungler in the game. Why even mess with Warwick? As far as I can tell almost nobody plays him.
On February 04 2012 22:18 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote: According to Morello's post on the official forums, they are looking to lower warwick's sustain a bit and increase his damage/tweak abilities to give him more jungling speed.
Sigh ... source on this?
I really hope they don't remove Warwick's interesting niche and just turn him into every other speed jungler in the game. Why even mess with Warwick? As far as I can tell almost nobody plays him.
Which is the problem, nobody plays him. He is outclassed both in lane and in the jungle currently. Lots of people love him though, so if he'd be buffed, there would be a lot of players picking him back up.
And WW does not have an interesting niche. He does not lose health in the jungle, but that does not really lead to anything if you can still be 1v1'd by practically all jungle bruisers. He is slow, can't duel, and can't gank until level 6. Not dying to jungle creeps is not much of a niche
Warwick is vastly better in jungle than most people think. He's actually a very solid dueler if you have some mana or red buff and has monster ganks post level 6. He also has a monster late game.
Basically you just farm jungle till you have Madred's and then never go back again unless you REALLY need to buy something. Gank a lane for a free kill every time/forceout every time your ult is up.
On February 04 2012 22:18 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote: According to Morello's post on the official forums, they are looking to lower warwick's sustain a bit and increase his damage/tweak abilities to give him more jungling speed.
Sigh ... source on this?
I really hope they don't remove Warwick's interesting niche and just turn him into every other speed jungler in the game. Why even mess with Warwick? As far as I can tell almost nobody plays him.
Some guy on the LoL forums posted a 'riot why no love to warwick's thread. Morello replied that they are looking to tweak him a bit - primarily they want to increase his jungling speed (by adjusting his stats or abilities, basically his W) and nerf his sustain. he clarified that they r not looking to remove the sustain just reduce it slightly. Also they don't want to give him AOE, they still want him to be an autoattack based jungler
In general I wouldn't suggest jungling before level 30 (or at least mid 20s). It's so slow without full masteries and at least some set of runes that you just end up super underleveled.
With regard to Lanewick items, no Warmog's. Because of his lifesteal, Warwick scales best with MR/Armor, not HP. Stuff you generally want every game on Lanewick is basically Wriggles, Philo Stone, and Wit's End. After this it's pretty situational.
On February 05 2012 12:47 SMD wrote: A couple questions:
Im lvl 14, playing pubs nothing ranked.
Is warmogs good on him? I like to build warwick as a tank then get atmas or 2 for the dmg.
also, whenever i try to pure jungle its so slow, is it supposed to be that slow? ill be level 4 and my teammates are 6 or so
He's slow by nature but hopefully not that slow. Make sure to start with a longsword, cloth armor is too slow on him, and pick up some of the offensive masteries.
Warmogs is fine but it's not nearly as good on him as resistences like aegis or items that build out of negatron cloak or chain vest. With armor/mr, each point of health you gain with your passive/Q will be harder for your opponents to break through, so it's like it's multiplying the health gain. There is similar scaling on flat health but it's not as efficient, it is good to get a bit of raw hp though.
Consider that WW gets a lot of HP back from attacks / Q, but that the actual amount you get back is not going to change very much with a standard tank build (only exception being spirit visage). If you have more resists each point of the health you steal will last you longer than if you just have more HP (more commonly referred to as Effective HP or EHP).
I personally wouldn't get Warmogs on WW since his kit synergizes with resists and on-hit items so much.
Why would u ever run 21 in O on ww? As solo top you're an off tank... And I gotta laugh at whoever recomended armour penetration him... Have any of you read his skills? He does pure magic damage... I run 0/21/9 for mass harassing/easy survivability early game... I've only really lost to rivens with this (pre nerf), and there are a couple of other champions that cause some trouble(vlad with his higher sustain comes to mind)... I just think that most of you are looking at this hero in a completely wrong way... U should be playing him kind of like a nidalee where you can run up auto attack - take some damage then q him to heal then run away to wait for cool downs... This makes people scream op at me all the time..; Not to mention a q r q ignite combo... And no never go atmogs on him, again: you do magic damage... I'm also confused about the wriggles pick up... I never get this item on lanewick prefering to rush sunfire cloak to make my pushing presence more of a factor if I'm against ad especially if it's an ad jungler as well.. Otherwise wit's end 1st... WW is like the anti ad, the less ap on their team the better. wit's/FH are teh only items that I would consider core on him.. I go madred's last or whenever I think that I'm tank "enough" (sometimes never) Mogwai: you're comparison is retarded because you do magic damage not phyical so it's completely irrelevant... The amount of people who are building ad items on this char is hilarious... sigh. Oh yeah, I almost always go sorc boots on him ^_^;: that magic penetration fucks people up early game, I also think that ms quints are essential because they simply make you faster than your opponent during the harassing stage to beable to easilly abuse q (not to mention that with E you turn into an Olympic medal runner) Don't underestimate the power of void staff/sorc boots/madreds (if you have another tank on your team). -this is after FH/wit's/armour or mr item depending on enemy team. I don't say that this is core, but it makes your damage output fricking insane ;o. I've also tried running him ap... You will never lose 1v1- but your pretty useless in team fights xD (if the enemy team understands that your a glass cannon)
On February 05 2012 22:47 MyTHicaL wrote: blah blah blah, I'm a retard who doesn't know what jungling is
Who are you again?
Only good point in your entire post was that atmog's is bad on WW.
On February 09 2012 08:23 r.Evo wrote: What masteries are you guys running on lanewick?
OP out of date for that part. :>
I dunno cause I really don't lanewick anymore. Would say 9/21/0 is probably the safest best, but he gains a lot from every tree, so it's kinda w/e makes sense in the given matchup.
I am not a pro, but it depends on the your team and your lane opponent. When you are top you normally need to be fairly tanky, and then there are 2 issues, either you want more attack speed for your passive or you want the mana regen because you are very mana hungry. I personally would go 9/21/0 or 0/21/9 depending on if you need the attack speed or mana regen more in your lane.
On February 05 2012 22:47 MyTHicaL wrote: Why would u ever run 21 in O on ww? As solo top you're an off tank... And I gotta laugh at whoever recomended armour penetration him... Have any of you read his skills? He does pure magic damage...
Wrong he doesnt purely deal magic damge. You know his W? It boots his AS which makes his auto-attack hit harder and auto-attacks scale on AD and ARP. You run 21 in offensive because you benefit a FUCKTON from the mpen, the as and arp aswell as the lifesteal and the 21 point.
And no never go atmogs on him, again: you do magic damage... I'm also confused about the wriggles pick up... I never get this item on lanewick prefering to rush sunfire cloak to make my pushing presence more of a factor if I'm against ad especially if it's an ad jungler as well.. Otherwise wit's end 1st... WW is like the anti ad, the less ap on their team the better. wit's/FH are teh only items that I would consider core on him.. I go madred's last or whenever I think that I'm tank "enough" (sometimes never)
Sunfire CAPE (not cloak, CAPE) is an awful item for the gold. You gain no cdr, you gain little from the combine cost (only 35 magic dps, but again it's magic damage, so it scales off the enemy magic resist. Wriggles is a fucking godlike item if you're against an AD on solo top. Lifesteal, armor, a free ward every 3 sec and the proc+AD makes lasthitting safer+it makes your auto-attacks stronger aswell. I would recommend you to look at the TL spreadsheet some nice people made, but judging from your discussion manners and the way you approach a discussion i have my doubts that you will understand anything. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=216685
Mogwai: you're comparison is retarded because you do magic damage not phyical so it's completely irrelevant... The amount of people who are building ad items on this char is hilarious... sigh.
Read what i wrote above, and really, i've never heard of you, you write like a fucking idiot that has little to clue what to say and therefore you just write some random bullshit and feel good. Mogwai aka. Smashgizmo is one of the more respected people on TL, he's proved himself to be capable of reaching high ELO. What have you ever accomplished? I myself is nothing but a 1600 ELO player, but yet i can narrow down almost everything of what you're writing and tell you that you're straight up wrong. Read some more before you start discussing matters that you have no insight on.. Thanks
On February 05 2012 22:47 MyTHicaL wrote: blah blah blah, I'm a retard who doesn't know what jungling is
Who are you again?
Only good point in your entire post was that atmog's is bad on WW.
Nice intelligent attack on me, fake quoting; never seen that before.. congrats, i scrolled up and realised that u were the smart guy running ad pen on ww. I have nothing else to say to you untill you realise that ww does magic damage. Thanks and good bye; side note: Didn't see that you were talking about jungle ww; still confused about the armour pen choice tho. I've angered your fan boys, I can't win a 1vX internet argument so I'll just stop here. whatever.
On February 05 2012 22:47 MyTHicaL wrote: blah blah blah, I'm a retard who doesn't know what jungling is
Who are you again?
Only good point in your entire post was that atmog's is bad on WW.
Nice intelligent attack on me, fake quoting; never seen that before.. congrats, i scrolled up and realised that u were the smart guy running ad pen on ww. I have nothing else to say to you untill you realise that ww does magic damage. Thanks and good bye;
I've angered your fan boys, I can't win a 1vX internet argument so I'll just stop here. whatever.
Er, I never post in the LoL subforum, but I think that I can spell this out for you. By the time Warwick begins to deal significant magic damage, the rune bonus is not needed and is really small. However, with AD runes, Warwick gets a stronger early game against armor-based openings, like cloth+5.
In essence, getting mpen runes on Warwick is a waste of time because Warwick isn't going to need mpen until lategame, and that's not what runes are for.
On February 05 2012 22:47 MyTHicaL wrote: blah blah blah, I'm a retard who doesn't know what jungling is
Who are you again?
Only good point in your entire post was that atmog's is bad on WW.
Nice intelligent attack on me, fake quoting; never seen that before.. congrats, i scrolled up and realised that u were the smart guy running ad pen on ww. I have nothing else to say to you untill you realise that ww does magic damage. Thanks and good bye; side note: Didn't see that you were talking about jungle ww; still confused about the armour pen choice tho. I've angered your fan boys, I can't win a 1vX internet argument so I'll just stop here. whatever.
On February 05 2012 22:47 MyTHicaL wrote: blah blah blah, I'm a retard who doesn't know what jungling is
Who are you again?
Only good point in your entire post was that atmog's is bad on WW.
Nice intelligent attack on me, fake quoting; never seen that before.. congrats, i scrolled up and realised that u were the smart guy running ad pen on ww. I have nothing else to say to you untill you realise that ww does magic damage. Thanks and good bye; side note: Didn't see that you were talking about jungle ww; still confused about the armour pen choice tho. I've angered your fan boys, I can't win a 1vX internet argument so I'll just stop here. whatever.
oh I'm sorry I didn't realize we required intelligent attacks when the initial shots fired were these:
On February 05 2012 22:47 MyTHicaL wrote: Mogwai: you're comparison is retarded because you do magic damage not phyical so it's completely irrelevant... The amount of people who are building ad items on this char is hilarious... sigh.
Yes of course I must be in the wrong, I appologize ever so sincerely for hurting your feelings and having the earned respect of my peers while you're just another ignorant douchebag who'd rather assume everyone else is wrong than politely ask why people who are better than you do things differently.
On February 05 2012 22:47 MyTHicaL wrote: blah blah blah, I'm a retard who doesn't know what jungling is
Who are you again?
Only good point in your entire post was that atmog's is bad on WW.
Nice intelligent attack on me, fake quoting; never seen that before.. congrats, i scrolled up and realised that u were the smart guy running ad pen on ww. I have nothing else to say to you untill you realise that ww does magic damage. Thanks and good bye;
I've angered your fan boys, I can't win a 1vX internet argument so I'll just stop here. whatever.
Er, I never post in the LoL subforum, but I think that I can spell this out for you. By the time Warwick begins to deal significant magic damage, the rune bonus is not needed and is really small. However, with AD runes, Warwick gets a stronger early game against armor-based openings, like cloth+5.
In essence, getting mpen runes on Warwick is a waste of time because Warwick isn't going to need mpen until lategame, and that's not what runes are for.
not to detract from the main point of this thread, but I do want to disagree with the idea that runes can't be used to bolster late game strenght. I find mp5@18 to be great on supports, obviously mres@18 is popular, and ap@18 can be pretty strong, as it starts providing item-equivalent returns at around lv7 or 8, which is essentially the phase after your first back.
in the jungle though, and generally, I agree that it's wise to lean towards an early game spike with runes. depends on the role and personal playstyles
The thing is that most stat/lvl runes you take have very early break even points with the flat equivalents and that is why they are simply better than the flat version, to take your examples, mana regen seals: flat 0.41, scaling 0.065/lvl, at lvl 6 0.39 mres glyphs: flat 1.49, scaling 0.15/lvl, breaking even at lvl 10 ap glyphs: flat 0.99, scaling 0.17/lvl, at lvl 6 1.02
You can argue that flat mres would be good against early game bursters like Leblanc, but why should I take any of these runes flat otherwise? Casters reach their potential later with a lot of items, if you do not die with scaling runes why should you get flat runes?
On the other hand, lets scaling armor and flat armor have very similar stats: armor seals: flat: 1.41, scaling 0.15/lvl breaking even at level 10.
I think here the argument for flat runes is that you can shrug of auto attack harass and minion damage early, which is were most damage will come from in early game. Against early game physical heroes like Garen people even go armor marks and open cloth + 5, it seems like physical damage is a lot stronger early. If you had unlimited rune pages it might not be stupid to also have versions with scaling armor if you are a sustain type of hero against someone that won't kill you in the early levels. Another argument for flat armor runes is that most of the junglers have physical damage so it might be smart to block some damage from early ganks.
I think Boots + 1 pot + ward is a better opening than Boots + 3 pots. You don't really have any need for 3 potions on Warwick and the early ward can let you do some counter jungling or just help one of your lanes avoid an early gank.
On February 10 2012 03:39 arnath wrote: I think Boots + 1 pot + ward is a better opening than Boots + 3 pots. You don't really have any need for 3 potions on Warwick and the early ward can let you do some counter jungling or just help one of your lanes avoid an early gank.
I disagree. If you're planning on ganking early, being able to use pots and save Q mana for ganks makes a big difference. I see the appeal of a ward, but with WW's jungling speed, I'm not looking on getting feisty with invading.
I was wondering, since I like to cap CDR on Warwick, I usually tend to get a Spirit Visage, even when I don't really need the MR that much, because masteries + Frozen Heart leaves you at only 30% CDR. Is just the FH really enough for CDR?
On February 10 2012 05:39 Hyren wrote: Do you find attack speed marks to be fairly mandatory on Junglewick?
No, they help though. Honestly, I just use my generic dps jungle page on WW most of the time (2 AD Quints, 1 ArPen Quint, 2 ArPen Marks, 7 AS Marks) because I only have like, 3 pages for jungling and I like having a page that's balanced for Xin/Noct/WW/GP. Some AS is noticeably safer/faster though.
On February 10 2012 05:40 mcimba42 wrote: I was wondering, since I like to cap CDR on Warwick, I usually tend to get a Spirit Visage, even when I don't really need the MR that much, because masteries + Frozen Heart leaves you at only 30% CDR. Is just the FH really enough for CDR?
masteries + FH is actually only 24% CDR unless you go defensive which will be like 28% or w/e. And yea, sure, it's plenty for CDR. I power through the midgame and get enough gold that I can actually just go Wriggle's, HoG, Wit's, Triforce and still have no CDR @ 10K gold and don't mind it that much. Going for CDR cap is perfectly respectable and it's cool to go FH + Visage and just lean on your Q all game, but going without as much CDR is also completely OK.
SIDENOTE: I actually think there's probably something to be said for going Zeke's on WW if you want CDR and don't need the MRes.
hate it. Mallet's strictly an item of convenience, namely that you want phage and big chunk of HP and you want it right fucking now. it works on characters with built in resists very well, like Xin and Wukong. however, WW essentially has a built in massive HP pool from his passive and Q, and as such, he benefits much more from early resists than early HP. Build the phage, tank out with resists, finish with triforce, he has no need for mallet.
I played some jungle warwick yesterday. Every guide I read was delaying E until as late as possible. This thread says to take it around level 4, depending on your ganks. Can someone elaborate on this? I found he was pretty terrible at ganking anyways until level 6, even with exhaust, so I just took as much Q as possible for the jungle clearing.
E is a toggle with no cost and no significant cooldown. Is the only reason to turn it off to have stealth on your ganks?
You take E at level 4 because if you get someone under 50% with E you get a kill, if you didn't have E you wouldn't kill, meaning is makes your ganks stronger, pretty simple. If you get 2 in W it means you will have to wait till level 8 to get E or else miss Q ranks, so that's the problem. You want to start ganking at 6 at the latest so not having E makes those ganks a lot weaker. The initital burst with your lane helping + your R + Q is pretty much guaranteed to get them under 50%.
On February 14 2012 04:05 Chill wrote: I played some jungle warwick yesterday. Every guide I read was delaying E until as late as possible. This thread says to take it around level 4, depending on your ganks. Can someone elaborate on this? I found he was pretty terrible at ganking anyways until level 6, even with exhaust, so I just took as much Q as possible for the jungle clearing.
E is a toggle with no cost and no significant cooldown. Is the only reason to turn it off to have stealth on your ganks?
Thanks
WW can gank at level 4 if you have red and the opponent is seriously overextended. Example: A Renekton is being overly aggressive against your Irelia top lane. His Q/E naturally push the lane, so he's probably at her tower. In this case, if you are close after doing red, just run at him. Any CC you can get from the laner so you can get in range is bonus. Stutterstepping while chasing and you will at least force a flash, if not a kill.
You won't use your abilities much after your first blue runs off, expecially not W, so you have little choice where to put that ability point at level 4; you have 2Q, 1W, so E is a logical place to put it. If you could get a third Q, you would, but you can't
On February 14 2012 04:12 Slayer91 wrote: Yeah, stealth ganks when they're under 50%.
I think it shows up on the enemy buff/debuff bar even when above 50%? If they pay attention, they might spot it.
On February 14 2012 04:05 Chill wrote: I played some jungle warwick yesterday. Every guide I read was delaying E until as late as possible. This thread says to take it around level 4, depending on your ganks. Can someone elaborate on this? I found he was pretty terrible at ganking anyways until level 6, even with exhaust, so I just took as much Q as possible for the jungle clearing.
E is a toggle with no cost and no significant cooldown. Is the only reason to turn it off to have stealth on your ganks?
Thanks
you're reading bad guides and hell, I even say to take E at level 2 sometimes. E really strong, I don't like ganking without it.
I was worried I would die like when i tried to jungle at summoner lvl 5 with no runes, so I started Cloth + Pots. This was literally the first time that I had jungled since then. If I do it again, I'll with Boots and start at the Wraiths like you suggest for lvl 2 ganks.
ive been trying to expand my champ pool i feel comfortable carrying with and have recently picked up warwick to solo top with. hes not bad in the jungle but i main other jungle champs like sejuani, skarner, and udyr, and feel like they handle the jungle more effeciently. top lane tho WW ive found to be beast. i go the cdr route rather then straight attack speed and it has worked very, very well (ive been following the top ranked laning guide on solomid, adding in a bloodrazer usually after i hit cdr cap with spirit visage, frozen heart, and masteries). WW is just fun to play imo.
Warwick related patch notes: - Eternal Thirst now deals 3-16 magic damage per stack, and restores an equal amount of health - Infinite Duress damage changed to 250/335/420 (+2.0 bonus attack damage) from 200/300/400 (+1.67 total attack damage) - Base attack speed increased to 0.679 from 0.644
I'm a little confused as to how Eternal Thirst works now vs how it worked before. It looks like the low level healing was hit reasonably hard but at high levels it's only 2 less healing than before (plus free 3-16 magic damage per hit). Pretty nice WW buffs overall.
the buffs aren't going to affect ww's jungle a TON, but they should give him a nice power bump in top lane. it might be a case of not enough in his weak matchups, and too much in his strong matchups though. will have to play around with it a bit. either way, warwick buffs mean more warwick players, which means (a) get to wreck his shit some with shyvana in the next patch, and (b) more warwick skins! maybe i'll pick up the next one
The healing nerf is entirely superflous due to the new jungle.
Does the Infinite Duress damage factor in the damage from his new passive? If not, that's another ~80/160/240 damage, which more than makes up for the base AD loss.
the WW buffs are pretty big IMHO. base attack speed means a lot since that's what all attack speed buffs scale off of and the passive ends up being like a free wit's end worth of damage in the end game. Pretty big deal if you ask me, this fucker is going to be trucking people.
On February 14 2012 14:21 Mogwai wrote: the WW buffs are pretty big IMHO. base attack speed means a lot since that's what all attack speed buffs scale off of and the passive ends up being like a free wit's end worth of damage in the end game. Pretty big deal if you ask me, this fucker is going to be trucking people.
Yeah I think he's going to be sick in jungle. He's already pretty solid and these buffs are going to push him to the next level in terms of clear speed, etc.
I don't like ganking early on as WW, but people tend to complain so much if you don't gank until you're level 6 even as WW. The new change to his passive seems good for letting him clear faster which means starting boots 3 doesn't seem too bad. Normally I would only gank pre 6 without boots to counter gank or just to shut people up, but a boots opening means I can actually do some damage lvls 1-3 when I normally would just be able to walk at enemy champs and nothing else.
Also any tips on playing lanewick vs heavy harass champs like Riven. I build tanky just to be able to last hit in lane without dying and then can get off good ganks on the enemy with my jungler when I hit 6, but I feel I have so little pushing power that the enemy champ can just roam and kill everyone else.
In a situation where there's one super obvious Infinite Duress target on the enemy team (e.g. a super fed Vayne), but they have QSS, would you still jump them when you get a chance? I was reserving it for her always and then activating Randuin's when she cleansed it, but between Condemns and Tumble I had trouble sticking to her. I'm wondering if maybe I would have been better off jumping Brand if I could prevent his combo, or even trying to use it defensively around our Kog'Maw, although he wasn't nearly strong enough to kill more than two people before Vayne aced us.
I think we might just have been too behind. I was top lane Warwick. Mercs, Randuins, Frozen Heart, Wit's, Phage (finished Trinity at the end but game was pretty much done).
In my opinion you need mallet faster, I'd even go Glacial -> Wits -> Mallet with Phage somewhere in between.
After you have Mallet you just run at the Vayne and she needs to run, and then she can QSS it I guess but yeah the randuins should let you still tag her at least once and after that she can't run, you can also zone her with brushes as she can't face check and this way you can take her completely out of the fight which pretty much makes you do your job.
However it should be possible to chase her even without using your ulti because Randuin proc lets you catch up and especially if you have oracle eventually the slows might force her to use QSS after which you can ulti. Either way if you just chase her around without letting her participate you're giving your team a very significant advantage
Storytelling time: On warwick I was soloing top and winning pretty hard, had like 220 minions at 23min and the opponent had like 100 less. I decided to go for Madreds Bloodrazor into Wits end as I was doing so well I figured I could go with some dmg instead of getting a ton of resists early(though those items give some as well).
Then soon after a battle occured, I got focused pretty hard and lived with like 200 hp and was running as the enemy Ashe suddenly appears and slows me. I figured I'd ulti her and...
The ulti just oneshot her from full. I mean she was 1-3 so wasn't doing that great, had an IE and a Zeal and a Doran Blade, was lvl 12 or 13 I think, but the ulti just literally emptied her HP bar, I was lvl 16.
So what is the moral of the story? WW ulti preeetty good!
On February 15 2012 16:04 Shikyo wrote: In my opinion you need mallet faster, I'd even go Glacial -> Wits -> Mallet with Phage somewhere in between.
How's this fast? Assuming you bought no wards, no pots (lol) and Mercs, that's 1525+2000+1250 gold down the drain, and at this point, why'd you feel the urge to go Mallet? SV/FH are undoubtly better choices, as you have little to no need for the HP, you have inherent chasing power and there's so many better choices. I don't get the idea of spending so much gold on HP when you have your passive which hevily favors resistances, so much gold on chasing power when you have your E. Phage is okay if you decide to go Triforce from there on, but Mallet is utter garbage in my opinion. Chasing Vayne is possible with the help of your team in a teamfight, because if you don't focus her, something's wrong anyway.
Also, congratulations on having a 90% last hitting rate. At 23 minutes, 39 waves will have spawned, every 3rd wave will have a siege minion, so at the 23 minute mark, 247 minions will have spawned in your lane. Pretty sure it's really hard to farm that well on WW. Good job.
The "inherent chasing power" is actually quite poop and Mallet's totally amazing, and I think SaintVicious goes almost the exact same build so it can't be that bad
Normally those items are finished at like 17min so you're asking why at that point I'd feel like getting Mallet? Because I want the health and want to chase people
On February 15 2012 20:03 Shikyo wrote: The "inherent chasing power" is actually quite poop and Mallet's totally amazing, and I think SaintVicious goes almost the exact same build so it can't be that bad
Normally those items are finished at like 17min so you're asking why at that point I'd feel like getting Mallet? Because I want the health and want to chase people
Saintvicious jungles Warwick, that's a whole different story. He does not have access to the amounts of farm Lanewick and hence approaches his build completely differently.
That being said, you essentially render your E useless in a 1v1 scenario when buying Mallet. If you want to chase people so badly, why not just go Triforce which I'm pretty sure gives similar EH with the AS and much, much more DPS?
Besides, I don't see how you consider his chasing power to be poop. I totally don't get why you'd get it over Phage&SV which costs practically the same, gives similar amounts of health, increases your EHP more than Mallet does, and, unlike Mallet, actually improves your DPS and teamfighting power by a measurable margin.
Mallet just feels WRONG on warwick. Eugh. I guess it makes some sense because of the slow and your E giving speed but eugh. I'd rather just go all like "red buff or afk bro" to your ranged AD. Those fuckers don't need that shit anyway.
On February 15 2012 20:31 Slayer91 wrote: Mallet just feels WRONG on warwick. Eugh. I guess it makes some sense because of the slow and your E giving speed but eugh. I'd rather just go all like "red buff or afk bro" to their ranged AD. Those fuckers don't need that shit anyway.
Well I dunno, I don't have the highest amount of experience but with Mallet I just feel like I get a single hit on anyone and they're guaranteed to be dead(as it slows for your team too as tank WW really doesn't deal a billion dmg all by himself) whereas with your passive you're basically hitting for like 80 dmg every second or two as they run away at their full speed and usually you can't catch them unless you got ulti up or they are like 1 Q from death... I don't know, I haven't played him a ton but I've experimented both ways and I've noticed that with Frozen Mallet I just immediately feel FAR stronger and the 1 hit -> guaranteed kill effect really feels like it really is there. It just feels like without the item I spend most of my time running around instead of killing stuff, I dunno. It works really well at least for me personally.
It's not even that late if you get it after philo + wits + glacial, should be done at least before 30min, probably before 25 with phage way earlier. Frozen Mallet isn't really necessary in the toplane but when you start getting into the teamfights I just feel like it is incredibly beneficial for him.
About sitting on Phage, I've tried that as well and it's a total lottery, I don't really like it that much. And as my build ends up having like 300+ armor and 150+ mres the HP scales quite well with the resistances, in fact.
However I really would like to emphasize again how insane his ulti is against targets with little to no magic resist, it's nearly guaranteed of getting a squishy even from full into the E-chasing range, after which they're out of the battle. It feels like it deals a ton more damage than before, I guess the passive buff really had an effect.
I mean, I can see mallet being useful, even effective, but I just can't see it being the best item on warwick of all champions. If you want slow so badly it's probably worth getting red buff.
If you're playing WW top, when do you get a wriggle's and when don't you. Most tops I get wriggle's regardless but I see saint skipping and going straight to wit's end. Edit: Yes he's playing top and the game right now he is laning vs a mundo for reference.
On February 17 2012 00:37 mordek wrote: If you're playing WW top, when do you get a wriggle's and when don't you. Most tops I get wriggle's regardless but I see saint skipping and going straight to wit's end. Edit: Yes he's playing top and the game right now he is laning vs a mundo for reference.
I never get it. You don't need the sustain, and your pushing will suck regardless. There's better items to spend 1600 on, e.g. Glacial.
On February 17 2012 00:37 mordek wrote: If you're playing WW top, when do you get a wriggle's and when don't you. Most tops I get wriggle's regardless but I see saint skipping and going straight to wit's end. Edit: Yes he's playing top and the game right now he is laning vs a mundo for reference.
I never get it. You don't need the sustain, and your pushing will suck regardless. There's better items to spend 1600 on, e.g. Glacial.
Pretty much this.
You play LaneWick as an unmovable object top lane. You can stand in lane all day. Q the enemy champ and auto to heal. Even with Wriggle's, you're still auto'ing to push. Some Madred's procs isn't going to save your already terrible wave clearing ability. Life-steal is moot. You can buy your own wards.
On February 17 2012 00:37 mordek wrote: If you're playing WW top, when do you get a wriggle's and when don't you. Most tops I get wriggle's regardless but I see saint skipping and going straight to wit's end. Edit: Yes he's playing top and the game right now he is laning vs a mundo for reference.
I never get it. You don't need the sustain, and your pushing will suck regardless. There's better items to spend 1600 on, e.g. Glacial.
Pretty much this.
You play LaneWick as an unmovable object top lane. You can stand in lane all day. Q the enemy champ and auto to heal. Even with Wriggle's, you're still auto'ing to push. Some Madred's procs isn't going to save your already terrible wave clearing ability. Life-steal is moot. You can buy your own wards.
Disagree, it's matchup dependent. You will 100% lose sustain vs. sustain lanes without wriggle's. Irelia and Udyr come foremost to my mind. They will shrug off just Qs, and if they have a wriggle's vs. your lack of wriggle's, you cannot stand and fight them. Not to mention that "lifesteal is moot" is just a laughable statement when you're talking about autoing to heal up (especially since his healing form autos was nerfed this patch). If your opponent is putting real damage on you and your Q isn't enough to give you lane control for any reason whatsoever, you need a wriggle's IMO.
i def agree that vs irelia you really need the wriggles, because just q's can't keep up.
edit: just played the matchup a few hours ago, and once she got wiggles, i couldn't fight her, ever. Rushed phage first, big mistake looking back on it.
i might have already said this earlier in the thread but you should really try the spark item if you want to do the pushing. if you want armor frozen heart is probably the best buy.
i used to build sunfire but i tried the spark item and i dont think it was so bad so ive been doing that now. im curious what makes you say spark is so bad?
i didnt say you cant buy wits end. its clearly the best mr item you can get for warwick lol. i know spark doesnt give you resistances which makes it seem kinda meh on a hero that has so much healing but i bought it in game and thought it worked well. also i really like frozen heart as the main armor item on ww.
On February 17 2012 06:12 Mogwai wrote: If I want to do the pushing I'll buy sunfire or I'll just go wit's + wriggle's -> triforce. You don't need to build a bad item to push with ww.
So it turns out that top lane WW is able to beat Lee Sin. The buff on his passive just makes it really hard to stand and fight ww now. I had Tabi and a glacial and while I wasnt beating him badly, every time he decided to stand and fight I came out ahead.
On February 17 2012 06:06 barbsq wrote: i def agree that vs irelia you really need the wriggles, because just q's can't keep up.
edit: just played the matchup a few hours ago, and once she got wiggles, i couldn't fight her, ever. Rushed phage first, big mistake looking back on it.
Wit's End is great because even though it doesn't give the sustain Wriggle's does, it gives you so much DPS that you can stand toe-to-toe with many other top laners and prevent them from ever just autoing minions to heal with their own Wriggle's.
So SV is still doing FM on WW that means it works? Haven't seen many games of him doing it. He rushes for FM after wriggles correct? Though I would think going wriggles, phage, wits end then completing FM would be better. Same build just different order.
On February 21 2012 04:54 BlackMagister wrote: So SV is still doing FM on WW that means it works? Haven't seen many games of him doing it. He rushes for FM after wriggles correct? Though I would think going wriggles, phage, wits end then completing FM would be better. Same build just different order.
Nope, he rushes Wits End after wriggles. Then Phage and after that it depends, sometimes he'll go aegis, sometimes he'll go straight to mallet.
In what instances is Spirit Visage a good item for WW? It still seems like a boss item for WW in theory, but nobody builds it anymore including me. I'm guessing it's just a good alternative to Frozen Heart when the enemy has not much AD or someone else on your team is building a Frozen Heart already.
What do you guys think about magic pen quints instead of ArP? Seems all of his damage is magic besides auto attacks. He does auto a lot, but with wits + passive his autos are half magic dmg anyway, then his Q and Ult are magic. People always take the 10% magic pen in offense tree right? Lately for junglewick I've been going 21/9/0, AS reds, armor yellows, scaling MR blue, and magic pen quints. boots 3 -> Wriggles (sometimes just razor for faster wits) -> Wits -> Mallet (phage then FH if I need it) -> Bloodrazor or GA -> haven't gotten that far yet. How do you guys feel about a late void staff just so wits+bloodrazor can tear thru them? Would be really nice if there was a good tanky magic pen item without AP for Warwick, or maybe like a black cleaver but with MR shred instead. Malady seems interesting but the AP is kinda wasted and WW already has enough attack speed. One game I managed to get wits/mallet/bloodrazor finished really fast and it was just hilarious how many different numbers popped above ppl's heads when I autoed 2.5/sec. Baron dies hilariously fast too.
On February 17 2012 00:37 mordek wrote: If you're playing WW top, when do you get a wriggle's and when don't you. Most tops I get wriggle's regardless but I see saint skipping and going straight to wit's end. Edit: Yes he's playing top and the game right now he is laning vs a mundo for reference.
I never get it. You don't need the sustain, and your pushing will suck regardless. There's better items to spend 1600 on, e.g. Glacial.
Pretty much this.
You play LaneWick as an unmovable object top lane. You can stand in lane all day. Q the enemy champ and auto to heal. Even with Wriggle's, you're still auto'ing to push. Some Madred's procs isn't going to save your already terrible wave clearing ability. Life-steal is moot. You can buy your own wards.
Disagree, it's matchup dependent. You will 100% lose sustain vs. sustain lanes without wriggle's. Irelia and Udyr come foremost to my mind. They will shrug off just Qs, and if they have a wriggle's vs. your lack of wriggle's, you cannot stand and fight them. Not to mention that "lifesteal is moot" is just a laughable statement when you're talking about autoing to heal up (especially since his healing form autos was nerfed this patch). If your opponent is putting real damage on you and your Q isn't enough to give you lane control for any reason whatsoever, you need a wriggle's IMO.
A few numbers on this:
Level 9 WW against 50 armor target, assuming 3 stacks of passive and standard runes/masteries (DPS = damage per second, HPS = health per second):
DPS HPS No items 101 18 Wriggles 120 28 Wit's End 180 24
With level w activated (+40% attack speed):
DPS HPS No items 133 24 Wriggles 159 37 Wit's End 224 29
WW with Wit's End has 50% more dps than WW with wriggles, 40% more if level 1 w is active.
Is Wriggles really worth it considering how nuts Wit's End is on WW? Considering the huge damage differential, does the armor and lifesteal really tip the scales in favor of Wriggles for sustained fights top?
Edit: Formatting. Tabbing does not seem to work, so spaces are used instead. 2. Edit: What the hell. I cannot get the tables right - extra spaces seem to be ignored. Help?
On February 17 2012 00:37 mordek wrote: If you're playing WW top, when do you get a wriggle's and when don't you. Most tops I get wriggle's regardless but I see saint skipping and going straight to wit's end. Edit: Yes he's playing top and the game right now he is laning vs a mundo for reference.
I never get it. You don't need the sustain, and your pushing will suck regardless. There's better items to spend 1600 on, e.g. Glacial.
Pretty much this.
You play LaneWick as an unmovable object top lane. You can stand in lane all day. Q the enemy champ and auto to heal. Even with Wriggle's, you're still auto'ing to push. Some Madred's procs isn't going to save your already terrible wave clearing ability. Life-steal is moot. You can buy your own wards.
Disagree, it's matchup dependent. You will 100% lose sustain vs. sustain lanes without wriggle's. Irelia and Udyr come foremost to my mind. They will shrug off just Qs, and if they have a wriggle's vs. your lack of wriggle's, you cannot stand and fight them. Not to mention that "lifesteal is moot" is just a laughable statement when you're talking about autoing to heal up (especially since his healing form autos was nerfed this patch). If your opponent is putting real damage on you and your Q isn't enough to give you lane control for any reason whatsoever, you need a wriggle's IMO.
A few numbers on this:
Level 9 WW against 50 armor target, assuming 3 stacks of passive and standard runes/masteries (DPS = damage per second, HPS = health per second):
DPS HPS No items 101 18 Wriggles 120 28 Wit's End 180 24
With level w activated (+40% attack speed):
DPS HPS No items 133 24 Wriggles 159 37 Wit's End 224 29
WW with Wit's End has 50% more dps than WW with wriggles, 40% more if level 1 w is active.
Is Wriggles really worth it considering how nuts Wit's End is on WW? Considering the huge damage differential, does the armor and lifesteal really tip the scales in favor of Wriggles for sustained fights top?
Edit: Formatting. Tabbing does not seem to work, so spaces are used instead. 2. Edit: What the hell. I cannot get the tables right - extra spaces seem to be ignored. Help?
Against people who hit you with physical attacks, yes, wriggle's does make a giant difference, especially on healing up off creeps because your assumption of 3 passive stacks is a really poor one when talking about healing off of CSing. You're going to get both these items anyway, and it's just a question of whether sustain/armor > damage/mres, but against strong sustain lanes, wriggle's first, especially since the ward is roughly equivalent to a gold/10 in terms of value generated over time.
On February 17 2012 00:37 mordek wrote: If you're playing WW top, when do you get a wriggle's and when don't you. Most tops I get wriggle's regardless but I see saint skipping and going straight to wit's end. Edit: Yes he's playing top and the game right now he is laning vs a mundo for reference.
I never get it. You don't need the sustain, and your pushing will suck regardless. There's better items to spend 1600 on, e.g. Glacial.
Pretty much this.
You play LaneWick as an unmovable object top lane. You can stand in lane all day. Q the enemy champ and auto to heal. Even with Wriggle's, you're still auto'ing to push. Some Madred's procs isn't going to save your already terrible wave clearing ability. Life-steal is moot. You can buy your own wards.
Disagree, it's matchup dependent. You will 100% lose sustain vs. sustain lanes without wriggle's. Irelia and Udyr come foremost to my mind. They will shrug off just Qs, and if they have a wriggle's vs. your lack of wriggle's, you cannot stand and fight them. Not to mention that "lifesteal is moot" is just a laughable statement when you're talking about autoing to heal up (especially since his healing form autos was nerfed this patch). If your opponent is putting real damage on you and your Q isn't enough to give you lane control for any reason whatsoever, you need a wriggle's IMO.
A few numbers on this:
Level 9 WW against 50 armor target, assuming 3 stacks of passive and standard runes/masteries (DPS = damage per second, HPS = health per second):
DPS HPS No items 101 18 Wriggles 120 28 Wit's End 180 24
With level w activated (+40% attack speed):
DPS HPS No items 133 24 Wriggles 159 37 Wit's End 224 29
WW with Wit's End has 50% more dps than WW with wriggles, 40% more if level 1 w is active.
Is Wriggles really worth it considering how nuts Wit's End is on WW? Considering the huge damage differential, does the armor and lifesteal really tip the scales in favor of Wriggles for sustained fights top?
Edit: Formatting. Tabbing does not seem to work, so spaces are used instead. 2. Edit: What the hell. I cannot get the tables right - extra spaces seem to be ignored. Help?
This doesn't take into account the reduced damage you receive with wriggles compared to wit's end against an AD top, nor does it take into account the fact that you will often open with cloth armor or at least buy cloth armor early rather often against an AD top, so buying wriggles comes to you much faster and smoother than wit's end. Wit's end is great but sometimes the null cloak component just isn't useful in lane. It's not just about how much damage you deal.
On February 17 2012 00:37 mordek wrote: If you're playing WW top, when do you get a wriggle's and when don't you. Most tops I get wriggle's regardless but I see saint skipping and going straight to wit's end. Edit: Yes he's playing top and the game right now he is laning vs a mundo for reference.
I never get it. You don't need the sustain, and your pushing will suck regardless. There's better items to spend 1600 on, e.g. Glacial.
Pretty much this.
You play LaneWick as an unmovable object top lane. You can stand in lane all day. Q the enemy champ and auto to heal. Even with Wriggle's, you're still auto'ing to push. Some Madred's procs isn't going to save your already terrible wave clearing ability. Life-steal is moot. You can buy your own wards.
Disagree, it's matchup dependent. You will 100% lose sustain vs. sustain lanes without wriggle's. Irelia and Udyr come foremost to my mind. They will shrug off just Qs, and if they have a wriggle's vs. your lack of wriggle's, you cannot stand and fight them. Not to mention that "lifesteal is moot" is just a laughable statement when you're talking about autoing to heal up (especially since his healing form autos was nerfed this patch). If your opponent is putting real damage on you and your Q isn't enough to give you lane control for any reason whatsoever, you need a wriggle's IMO.
A few numbers on this:
Level 9 WW against 50 armor target, assuming 3 stacks of passive and standard runes/masteries (DPS = damage per second, HPS = health per second):
DPS HPS No items 101 18 Wriggles 120 28 Wit's End 180 24
With level w activated (+40% attack speed):
DPS HPS No items 133 24 Wriggles 159 37 Wit's End 224 29
WW with Wit's End has 50% more dps than WW with wriggles, 40% more if level 1 w is active.
Is Wriggles really worth it considering how nuts Wit's End is on WW? Considering the huge damage differential, does the armor and lifesteal really tip the scales in favor of Wriggles for sustained fights top?
Edit: Formatting. Tabbing does not seem to work, so spaces are used instead. 2. Edit: What the hell. I cannot get the tables right - extra spaces seem to be ignored. Help?
This doesn't take into account the reduced damage you receive with wriggles compared to wit's end against an AD top, nor does it take into account the fact that you will often open with cloth armor or at least buy cloth armor early rather often against an AD top, so buying wriggles comes to you much faster and smoother than wit's end. Wit's end is great but sometimes the null cloak component just isn't useful in lane. It's not just about how much damage you deal.
the cloth can always be turned into an aegis.
I agree that standing dps math isn't terribly helpful with bruisers tho. It can kinda give an idea, but you're almost never in a position where you're just standing autoattacking each other for extended periods of time. Also, it's not terribly suprising that a 2k item outdps's a 1.6k item (in particular one with attackspeed).
On February 17 2012 00:37 mordek wrote: If you're playing WW top, when do you get a wriggle's and when don't you. Most tops I get wriggle's regardless but I see saint skipping and going straight to wit's end. Edit: Yes he's playing top and the game right now he is laning vs a mundo for reference.
I never get it. You don't need the sustain, and your pushing will suck regardless. There's better items to spend 1600 on, e.g. Glacial.
Pretty much this.
You play LaneWick as an unmovable object top lane. You can stand in lane all day. Q the enemy champ and auto to heal. Even with Wriggle's, you're still auto'ing to push. Some Madred's procs isn't going to save your already terrible wave clearing ability. Life-steal is moot. You can buy your own wards.
Disagree, it's matchup dependent. You will 100% lose sustain vs. sustain lanes without wriggle's. Irelia and Udyr come foremost to my mind. They will shrug off just Qs, and if they have a wriggle's vs. your lack of wriggle's, you cannot stand and fight them. Not to mention that "lifesteal is moot" is just a laughable statement when you're talking about autoing to heal up (especially since his healing form autos was nerfed this patch). If your opponent is putting real damage on you and your Q isn't enough to give you lane control for any reason whatsoever, you need a wriggle's IMO.
A few numbers on this:
Level 9 WW against 50 armor target, assuming 3 stacks of passive and standard runes/masteries (DPS = damage per second, HPS = health per second):
DPS HPS No items 101 18 Wriggles 120 28 Wit's End 180 24
With level w activated (+40% attack speed):
DPS HPS No items 133 24 Wriggles 159 37 Wit's End 224 29
WW with Wit's End has 50% more dps than WW with wriggles, 40% more if level 1 w is active.
Is Wriggles really worth it considering how nuts Wit's End is on WW? Considering the huge damage differential, does the armor and lifesteal really tip the scales in favor of Wriggles for sustained fights top?
Edit: Formatting. Tabbing does not seem to work, so spaces are used instead. 2. Edit: What the hell. I cannot get the tables right - extra spaces seem to be ignored. Help?
This doesn't take into account the reduced damage you receive with wriggles compared to wit's end against an AD top, nor does it take into account the fact that you will often open with cloth armor or at least buy cloth armor early rather often against an AD top, so buying wriggles comes to you much faster and smoother than wit's end. Wit's end is great but sometimes the null cloak component just isn't useful in lane. It's not just about how much damage you deal.
the cloth can always be turned into an aegis.
I agree that standing dps math isn't terribly helpful with bruisers tho. It can kinda give an idea, but you're almost never in a position where you're just standing autoattacking each other for extended periods of time. Also, it's not terribly suprising that a 2k item outdps's a 1.6k item (in particular one with attackspeed).
Cloth can be turned into Frozen Heart.
Once you get a Wit's End you can force lots of auto-attack trades. Also, Wit's End makes your ultimate much stronger than Wriggle's does.
On February 22 2012 05:01 Erasme wrote: Why are you arguing over that ? Can't you go clothe -> boots -> wriggles -> merc -> phage or wit's -> phage or wit's ?
the argument is whether or not wriggles is worth it
edit: and the post i was responding to made the claim that wriggles first allowed you to start cloth armor, which i disagreed with, as there are a lot of useful items you can build cloth into, even if u dont get wriggles.
for the record tho, imo you're gonna need wriggles unless you straight-up dominate the lane
and I pose that it is in several matchups. WW's sustain took a nerf this patch and his damage went way the fuck up. covering that sustain nerf is very helpful in sustain matchups and you should be getting it at the very least vs. Irelia, Xin, Udyr, Yorick and Teemo, if not also Garen, Pantheon, Wukong, GP, and Riven.
On February 22 2012 05:01 Erasme wrote: Why are you arguing over that ? Can't you go clothe -> boots -> wriggles -> merc -> phage or wit's -> phage or wit's ?
the argument is whether or not wriggles is worth it
edit: and the post i was responding to made the claim that wriggles first allowed you to start cloth armor, which i disagreed with, as there are a lot of useful items you can build cloth into, even if u dont get wriggles.
for the record tho, imo you're gonna need wriggles unless you straight-up dominate the lane
Uh, I never wrote that wriggles first allowed you to open cloth. I wrote that the fact that you do open cloth armor against AD tops just makes getting wriggles a very smooth affair if you do choose to do so. I often keep cloth as a component for FH. You didn't even read it properly.
I noticed that you talk a lot about Xin, Smash. Is it because you like to play him (and thus know him well) or do you happen to see him even at your high Elo?
On February 22 2012 09:13 Alaric wrote: I noticed that you talk a lot about Xin, Smash. Is it because you like to play him (and thus know him well) or do you happen to see him even at your high Elo?
On February 17 2012 00:37 mordek wrote: If you're playing WW top, when do you get a wriggle's and when don't you. Most tops I get wriggle's regardless but I see saint skipping and going straight to wit's end. Edit: Yes he's playing top and the game right now he is laning vs a mundo for reference.
I never get it. You don't need the sustain, and your pushing will suck regardless. There's better items to spend 1600 on, e.g. Glacial.
Pretty much this.
You play LaneWick as an unmovable object top lane. You can stand in lane all day. Q the enemy champ and auto to heal. Even with Wriggle's, you're still auto'ing to push. Some Madred's procs isn't going to save your already terrible wave clearing ability. Life-steal is moot. You can buy your own wards.
Disagree, it's matchup dependent. You will 100% lose sustain vs. sustain lanes without wriggle's. Irelia and Udyr come foremost to my mind. They will shrug off just Qs, and if they have a wriggle's vs. your lack of wriggle's, you cannot stand and fight them. Not to mention that "lifesteal is moot" is just a laughable statement when you're talking about autoing to heal up (especially since his healing form autos was nerfed this patch). If your opponent is putting real damage on you and your Q isn't enough to give you lane control for any reason whatsoever, you need a wriggle's IMO.
A few numbers on this:
Level 9 WW against 50 armor target, assuming 3 stacks of passive and standard runes/masteries (DPS = damage per second, HPS = health per second):
DPS HPS No items 101 18 Wriggles 120 28 Wit's End 180 24
With level w activated (+40% attack speed):
DPS HPS No items 133 24 Wriggles 159 37 Wit's End 224 29
WW with Wit's End has 50% more dps than WW with wriggles, 40% more if level 1 w is active.
Is Wriggles really worth it considering how nuts Wit's End is on WW? Considering the huge damage differential, does the armor and lifesteal really tip the scales in favor of Wriggles for sustained fights top?
Edit: Formatting. Tabbing does not seem to work, so spaces are used instead. 2. Edit: What the hell. I cannot get the tables right - extra spaces seem to be ignored. Help?
Against people who hit you with physical attacks, yes, wriggle's does make a giant difference, especially on healing up off creeps because your assumption of 3 passive stacks is a really poor one when talking about healing off of CSing. You're going to get both these items anyway, and it's just a question of whether sustain/armor > damage/mres, but against strong sustain lanes, wriggle's first, especially since the ward is roughly equivalent to a gold/10 in terms of value generated over time.
3 passive stacks is a bad assumption when healing off of CS, point taken. However I had this post in mind when replying:
You will 100% lose sustain vs. sustain lanes without wriggle's. Irelia and Udyr come foremost to my mind. They will shrug off just Qs, and if they have a wriggle's vs. your lack of wriggle's, you cannot stand and fight them.
I thought the issue was that you need to be able to fight them heads up to assert lane dominance, for which Wit's does a (much) better job (it adds more than 3 times the dps that Wriggle's does, 4 without w active).
Gold values of Wriggle's excluding proc and wards: AD: 943 Armor: 500 Lifesteal: 563
Main value is AD. This makes Wriggle's a very cost efficient item for characters that utilize the multiplicative scaling of AD. However on WW, with no crit or armor pen, the whole AD part of Wriggle's is undervalued. If you need sustain more than trading power, have you considered keeping it at a vamp scepter?
To my understanding, the argument for upgrading for vamp to Wriggle's in lane is that Wriggle's is cost efficient. The problem is that for WW, it is actually costinefficient.
How would you feel about Chain Mail + Vamp Scepter --> Recurve --> Wit's against AD sustain lanes? This should be at least equally strong early and would allow for faster Wit's End and Glacial Shroud.
Also, how to you open item-wise vs AD sustain laners?
before I launch into anything I just wanted to say I appreciate how much thought you're putting into your posts, it's pretty refreshing compared to a lot of stuff on these forums.
On February 17 2012 00:37 mordek wrote: If you're playing WW top, when do you get a wriggle's and when don't you. Most tops I get wriggle's regardless but I see saint skipping and going straight to wit's end. Edit: Yes he's playing top and the game right now he is laning vs a mundo for reference.
I never get it. You don't need the sustain, and your pushing will suck regardless. There's better items to spend 1600 on, e.g. Glacial.
Pretty much this.
You play LaneWick as an unmovable object top lane. You can stand in lane all day. Q the enemy champ and auto to heal. Even with Wriggle's, you're still auto'ing to push. Some Madred's procs isn't going to save your already terrible wave clearing ability. Life-steal is moot. You can buy your own wards.
Disagree, it's matchup dependent. You will 100% lose sustain vs. sustain lanes without wriggle's. Irelia and Udyr come foremost to my mind. They will shrug off just Qs, and if they have a wriggle's vs. your lack of wriggle's, you cannot stand and fight them. Not to mention that "lifesteal is moot" is just a laughable statement when you're talking about autoing to heal up (especially since his healing form autos was nerfed this patch). If your opponent is putting real damage on you and your Q isn't enough to give you lane control for any reason whatsoever, you need a wriggle's IMO.
A few numbers on this:
Level 9 WW against 50 armor target, assuming 3 stacks of passive and standard runes/masteries (DPS = damage per second, HPS = health per second):
DPS HPS No items 101 18 Wriggles 120 28 Wit's End 180 24
With level w activated (+40% attack speed):
DPS HPS No items 133 24 Wriggles 159 37 Wit's End 224 29
WW with Wit's End has 50% more dps than WW with wriggles, 40% more if level 1 w is active.
Is Wriggles really worth it considering how nuts Wit's End is on WW? Considering the huge damage differential, does the armor and lifesteal really tip the scales in favor of Wriggles for sustained fights top?
Edit: Formatting. Tabbing does not seem to work, so spaces are used instead. 2. Edit: What the hell. I cannot get the tables right - extra spaces seem to be ignored. Help?
Against people who hit you with physical attacks, yes, wriggle's does make a giant difference, especially on healing up off creeps because your assumption of 3 passive stacks is a really poor one when talking about healing off of CSing. You're going to get both these items anyway, and it's just a question of whether sustain/armor > damage/mres, but against strong sustain lanes, wriggle's first, especially since the ward is roughly equivalent to a gold/10 in terms of value generated over time.
3 passive stacks is a bad assumption when healing off of CS, point taken. However I had this post in mind when replying:
You will 100% lose sustain vs. sustain lanes without wriggle's. Irelia and Udyr come foremost to my mind. They will shrug off just Qs, and if they have a wriggle's vs. your lack of wriggle's, you cannot stand and fight them.
I thought the issue was that you need to be able to fight them heads up to assert lane dominance, for which Wit's does a (much) better job (it adds more than 3 times the dps that Wriggle's does, 4 without w active).
I agree with the assessment that Wit's has a bigger impact on 1v1 brawls, but I think your numbers overstate it a bit. Firstly the armor from Wriggle's is more important in both these matchups than the MRes from Wit's, as in sustained fights, Irelia and Udyr both deal more physical damage than magical damage, not to mention that it also helps mitigate the damage you're going to take from creep aggro. But on top of that, comparing the damage benefits in a multiplicative way like that sensationalizes the difference. In the same light, I could just as easily say that wriggle's adds infinitely more sustain when you're not blindly auto-attacking and instead just last hitting creeps, but that doesn't do the complexity of the comparison justice.
cloth + 5 is also the safest opening in both these lanes and builds conveniently and quickly into wriggle's. I'd also like to say that I think that being able to successfully play passive vs. opposing aggression in sustain lanes is important due to the nature of top lane right now. going wit's means that in order to have lane presence, you need to be constantly fighting your opponent. this leaves you open to ganks and can have some rough consequences. being able to be flexible in how you play the lane (namely being able to ignore opposing aggression and stay high hp off of last hits) is an intangible benefit that should not be overlooked.
On February 22 2012 19:55 Blyf wrote:Gold values of Wriggle's excluding proc and wards: AD: 943 Armor: 500 Lifesteal: 563
Main value is AD. This makes Wriggle's a very cost efficient item for characters that utilize the multiplicative scaling of AD. However on WW, with no crit or armor pen, the whole AD part of Wriggle's is undervalued. If you need sustain more than trading power, have you considered keeping it at a vamp scepter?
To my understanding, the argument for upgrading for vamp to Wriggle's in lane is that Wriggle's is cost efficient. The problem is that for WW, it is actually costinefficient.
Wriggle's is cost efficient, period. It's not the type of item that leans on the Crit/AD/AS/ArPen mechanics to make it good, as noted by how it's frequently in well thought out builds with wit's and mallet. AD is also just not undervalued on WW. He has a huge uptime on an 80% AS steroid. Sure, you're not building LW on WW, but he still does an awful lot of attacking and it's foolish to think that AD is undervalued because you're not building a PD and LW. Sorry, but you're taking your understanding of AD's multiplicative scaling too far here, especially on an item that from a damage perspective is nothing special.
I have thought of staying at vamp scepter on everyone I've built wriggle's on top lane and the simple fact of the matter is that wriggle's is a good investment and 9 times out of 10, I was just building that vamp scepter into a Wriggle's later in the game when I had 1150 gold ANYWAY. You're getting ~ 4 gold/10 in wards with a Wriggle's on an item with a raw 125+% cost efficiency that still sells for 70% value, it's a good investment and unless you're going for a Bloodthrister (not a good idea on most top laners), you should usually just turn that vamp into a wriggle's asap because the item is just so damn good.
On February 22 2012 19:55 Blyf wrote:How would you feel about Chain Mail + Vamp Scepter --> Recurve --> Wit's against AD sustain lanes? This should be at least equally strong early and would allow for faster Wit's End and Glacial Shroud.
Also, how to you open item-wise vs AD sustain laners?
Chain Vest + Vamp Scepter isn't as strong as wriggle's, it's not even close. and doing that only speeds up your wit's by 450 gold, why are you going so far out of your way to avoid building a good item and what do you even plan on doing with that vamp scepter?
So I'm watching Lapaka and hes been testing out 9/0/21(magic pen in offense, xp bonus stuff in utility) with 6% bonus xp quints so he hits 6 as fast as possible. It looks pretty interesting.
I also like his CDR runes in combination with both CDR masteries giving him ~16% base CDR and also the 15% less cooldowns on summoners so his shit is up way more often. Smite/flash will have considerably more uptime which is good for and against counterjungling.
He also goes sorc boots sometimes which I was thinking about doing recently. So much of ww's damage is magic and without mpen runes you really need to get some where you can, and boots seem like the most logical place since you don't have to invest in useless AP and stuff thats on the other mpen items. You lose out on the MR and tenacity from mercs but wits gives plenty of MR anyway and I think the bonus damage from sorc will be worth having no mercs vs teams with not as much cc.
im not sure if going the whole 9 yards with +xp bonus would be better than just going all +aspd/ad with 21/x/x and just having faster clear time -> faster 6.
i do so like warwick this patch. 7-0 in ranked and counting (; long sword+pot
do wolves, blue, wraiths, red, golems (optional wraiths+wolves continuation)
*mininote: when you reach your red for the first time and see it empty, check both brushes. if enemy did wolves->blue->walked to your red there shouldn't be enough time for him to finish your red unless he didn't smite blue
recall when you hit 650 for boots+cloth armor
rinse and repeat till you hit 6
gank a lane, keep clearing jungles and gank when ult up
buy wits end
buy whatever defensive items you want (i like aegis for balanced enemy offense, zekes for ad top+ad bot, SV for magic heavy opponents, FH for physical heavy)
win
(note: i duo q with my friend who plays AP so we almost always get mid)
Just want to jump in at one point and ask about it:
I agree with the assessment that Wit's has a bigger impact on 1v1 brawls, but I think your numbers overstate it a bit. Firstly the armor from Wriggle's is more important in both these matchups than the MRes from Wit's, as in sustained fights, Irelia and Udyr both deal more physical damage than magical damage.
Are you sure about armor being a really desired stat against those two specifically?
If we take Riven as an example armor would have an effect on 100% of her dps, so it becomes a no-brainer.
Against Irelia (assuming she maxes w and has no bonus AD from runes/masteries) about 22% at level 1 up to 47% at level 9 of her damage is true damage. That means compared to fighting a Riven any armor you build is 20-50% worthless.
For building defensively against her this this should mean that the value of armor and mres (durrobv) is decreased while the value of flat HP and CDR is increased.
Against Udyr the math gets trickier, because you'd need to know how long a straight in your face fight goes and he would probably get buttraped pre lvl 9 if he maxes Q over W, but the general idea stays similar. (for Irelia I'm just assuming she's not retarded and doesn't fight without W): His burst goes from 109 at level 1 up to 351 at level 9 and is pure magic damage.
Basicly this means if you fight him for less than 2s (lvl1)-4s(lvl9) mres would negate more of his damage than armor would. Even if we take his cooldown on Q into account (6s) it is STILL a shit load of magic damage from the proc even in prolonged fights.
Going back to:
Gold values of Wriggle's excluding proc and wards: AD: 943 Armor: 500 Lifesteal: 563
Suddenly the armor is worth only about 250 gold vs Irelia and Udyr (assuming you don't sit in each others face for more than 4seconds vs Udyr).
While this only decreases the total value of Wriggles by about 12.5% (armor doesn't mean much when it comes to its value) it decreases the defensive worth of the item overall.
What I'm going at is this: You are usually advocating Wriggles vs AD and 2 dblades vs AP champs when it comes to most solo top champs and I absolutely agree with it, simply because it makes sense.
Against people who however are able to negate around 50% of any armor you build (compared to an AP champ which would negate 100% and where Dblades > Wriggles on stuff like WK) I'm not sure if Wriggles is the ideal option.
Basicly the reasoning for building wriggles against Brodyr/Relia rests on "Yeah, it's just half as effective as vs AD bruisers, but it STILL has so much more value than our other options."
Now, considering the above are you still sure it's the best option?
Which items would work better instead? I'm not sure. vs Udyr a combination of armor, flat health, regen and mres would make sense (Kindlegem/SV/Philo/Aegis), against Irelia a combination of armor, flat health and regen would make sense. The fact that mres is useless against her makes it tricky imo.
Edit: vs Irelia specifically, if you manage to not fight when her W is up all the above is bullshit. If you'd say that this is your goal in lane vs her, how to? I always feel that she's the one dictating when and where a fight goes down and not the WW when I'm playing the matchup.
Edit 2: To continue blyfs argument from above, we're now looking at Wriggles for WW as an item where AD is undervalued considering his general scaling (am I being retarded for thinking AD is less valueable on WW than let's say on WK or GP? If yes, tell me please. =P) and where armor is undervalued vs Irelia/Udyr. Now what it has going is the increased lifesteal, the ward and the proc.
If you want to lane against irelia and udyr having the lifesteal from wriggles is probably a hell of a lot better than other options since you're not really going to win trades anyway.
But isn't WW supposed to beat Irelia in lane? Her sustain with wriggles is note that much worse than WW's so I fail to see what that'd change if you lose trades and rely on Q to heal back more than her.
running exp quints and 21 utility allows you to hit level 6 obscenely fast on ww/nocturne; I remember lapakaa hitting 6 before our solos when he did it in my game, was hilarious - it allows you to gank more frequently after you hit 6 (esp if you run cdr blues like lapakaa)
in terms of clear speeds i don't think running 21 offense allows you to clear significantly faster than just 9 offense given that the extra 11 offense is mainly for doing dmg to champions
On-Hit Procs on WW: High Value. Synergize with ult and W, and drives itemization towards procing his passive more. Good stuff. AS on WW: High/Average Value. Synergizes well with his passive, but has no synergy with his ult. Also for balanced auto-attack damage, pure AS is undervalued from his W, although this is somewhat mitigated by the fact that On-Hit procs are worth so much on him. AD on WW: Average Value. No synergy with his passive, low synergy with his ult, good synergy with his W. Crit/ArPen on WW: Average/Low Value. No synergy with his passive, no synergy with his ult, good synergy with his W.
What this means is that while he doesn't have the AD Scaling of a wukong or riven, he still gets a lot from having some AD.
It's also a naive approach to say that the armor is half value vs. Irelia/Udyr. Basically, they either burst -> disengage, in which case wit's isn't really helping your cause since you can't build up the passive stacks to gain a lot from the AS and now you're trying to heal that damage off without any lifesteal, or they stand and fight in which case physical damage will make up considerably more than 50% of their damage output, not to metion the added output from creep aggro. In either case, wriggle's is good and bringing a lot to the table. When you're saying you need a good mix of HP/HPregen/Armor/MRes all I can think is that ww heals a ton via passive + wriggle's + Q, and with wriggle's + wit's end, you get everything you need and I don't even understand the argument anymore.
You're not understanding the situation. Udyr and especially irelia run in and burst you and easily outtrade you meaning there's no items you can make that are going to make you win the trade. The thing is when their shit is on CD you can heal up with wriggles so even if the armour isn't totally efficient wits end doesn't really help you since the ww passive nerf it's not enough to keep you healthy.
And I can't see how WW beats irelia. Your q damage gets healed up so fast haha.
If you look at it this way, during trades you heal up a decent amount attacking them and since irelia does true damage you know health is the only way to counter that aside from not getting hit. (Frozen/randuins)
I feel like warwick is meant to win the lane by out harassing with his Q in lane, since he heals and harasses, and trades decently. The combination of sustain+insane trading counters that in lane which irelia and udyr are best at.
Hmm it seems like SV and some WW in IPL are rushing FM after Wriggles. I suppose it isn't that different from someone like Shyvanna grabbing FM early for some CC just WW doesn't go FM atmas. So it seems unnecessary to rush the health component that comes with FM.
On February 27 2012 12:12 BlackMagister wrote: Hmm it seems like SV and some WW in IPL are rushing FM after Wriggles. I suppose it isn't that different from someone like Shyvanna grabbing FM early for some CC just WW doesn't go FM atmas. So it seems unnecessary to rush the health component that comes with FM.
The AAA top laner that played today went chalice > wits end > FM I believe. However he was lanign against a Vlad in a double AP comp. It was very effective though. He might have even had a spirit visage thrown in there... I can't recall.
It almost feels unfair how convenient it is for WW to itemize resists without sacrificing anything. Heavy AD? Wriggles, Frozen Heart, Randuins. Heavy AP? Chalice, Wits, Spirit visage and which negatron item fits best at the time, all seem viable.
I dunno, I suppose the armor heavy build is true for most top laners, I guess there are just a lot of items that provide MR that seem to suit WW really well.
On February 26 2012 02:25 Slayer91 wrote: You're not understanding the situation. Udyr and especially irelia run in and burst you and easily outtrade you meaning there's no items you can make that are going to make you win the trade. The thing is when their shit is on CD you can heal up with wriggles so even if the armour isn't totally efficient wits end doesn't really help you since the ww passive nerf it's not enough to keep you healthy.
And I can't see how WW beats irelia. Your q damage gets healed up so fast haha.
If you look at it this way, during trades you heal up a decent amount attacking them and since irelia does true damage you know health is the only way to counter that aside from not getting hit. (Frozen/randuins)
I feel like warwick is meant to win the lane by out harassing with his Q in lane, since he heals and harasses, and trades decently. The combination of sustain+insane trading counters that in lane which irelia and udyr are best at.
I think WW comes out ahead in every right click and see what happens fight post-wriggle's + wit's, but his engagement/disengagement is pretty poor. I think WW vs. Udyr/Irelia should be freefarm lanes that are more or less decided by jungler ganks, but he will 100% lose either of these lanes via non-wriggle's builds or anything that tries to heavily lean on his Q.
How can WW deal with Yorick? Yorick just outharrasses WW sustain and he's screwed as soon as he runs out of mana(which happens pretty fast) and needs to b back to base. I'm thinking Chalice would work somewhat because it gives you basically infinite mana, but it feels retarded to rush that vs Yorick who does mostly physical dmg. Another idea is to rush Glacial and then basically use the extra armor and manapool for some sustain and B to base each time you run out of mana. However in both cases WW is going to get significantly outfarmed by Yorick.
What do? Also how about masteries? At least 10 in DEF is imo absolutely necessary because -4 dmg from minions is mandatory vs Yorick, but what apart from that? And which runes? I'd go armor quint armor yellow mres blue and probably aspd red or maybe AD red for lasthitting(feels stupid though).
On February 26 2012 02:25 Slayer91 wrote: You're not understanding the situation. Udyr and especially irelia run in and burst you and easily outtrade you meaning there's no items you can make that are going to make you win the trade. The thing is when their shit is on CD you can heal up with wriggles so even if the armour isn't totally efficient wits end doesn't really help you since the ww passive nerf it's not enough to keep you healthy.
And I can't see how WW beats irelia. Your q damage gets healed up so fast haha.
If you look at it this way, during trades you heal up a decent amount attacking them and since irelia does true damage you know health is the only way to counter that aside from not getting hit. (Frozen/randuins)
I feel like warwick is meant to win the lane by out harassing with his Q in lane, since he heals and harasses, and trades decently. The combination of sustain+insane trading counters that in lane which irelia and udyr are best at.
I think WW comes out ahead in every right click and see what happens fight post-wriggle's + wit's, but his engagement/disengagement is pretty poor. I think WW vs. Udyr/Irelia should be freefarm lanes that are more or less decided by jungler ganks, but he will 100% lose either of these lanes via non-wriggle's builds or anything that tries to heavily lean on his Q.
Alright, guess I would'nt know when nobody goes wriggles on lanewick for some reason.
Well, as I said before, Udyr and Irelia both have repeatable burst with strong disengage that lets them come out ahead in trades with WW, but their issues vs. him are that they have to disengage and back off after their CDs and wear him down via that, which, with wriggle's and his Q as they disengage ends up not being that much damage per burst cycle. At the same time, WW has a hard time sticking to them if he ever starts getting ahead, so it tends to just be back and forth matchups where ultimately not a whole hell of a lot happens.
Oh, I wanted to ask: Thoughts on HoG and/or Philo on Jungle WW (or even lanewick if he can get away with it).
I figure in general wriggles would provide similar if not greater returns considering the increase in jungling speed. And WW's early game isn't that shit hot, so there's no need to gimp him further. But damn, I love me dem gp5 items.
I feel like randuins and shurelias are things I'd like to get on WW anyway. But I'm probably just saying that to blind myself from how much they would make him suck early game.
Maybe just one? It can be my xmas AAAAND birthday present, pretty please?
Sure. Wriggles->Hog->Wits is a build that I actually use quite a bit. Id shy away from philo just because he doesnt really need the health or mana regen, but hog is fine. IMO you probably are gonna want either Hog or Phage, which you get is up to you.
On February 28 2012 10:46 Dgiese wrote: Oh, I wanted to ask: Thoughts on HoG and/or Philo on Jungle WW (or even lanewick if he can get away with it).
I figure in general wriggles would provide similar if not greater returns considering the increase in jungling speed. And WW's early game isn't that shit hot, so there's no need to gimp him further. But damn, I love me dem gp5 items.
I feel like randuins and shurelias are things I'd like to get on WW anyway. But I'm probably just saying that to blind myself from how much they would make him suck early game.
Maybe just one? It can be my xmas AAAAND birthday present, pretty please?
why do I bother writing guides if people don't read them?
I say in the guide that HoG is usually my next item after wriggles... sigh...
Philo is a waste though, really no need for it on him and reverie isn't that great on him as all he really likes off of it are the CDR and the active.
On February 28 2012 10:46 Dgiese wrote: Oh, I wanted to ask: Thoughts on HoG and/or Philo on Jungle WW (or even lanewick if he can get away with it).
I figure in general wriggles would provide similar if not greater returns considering the increase in jungling speed. And WW's early game isn't that shit hot, so there's no need to gimp him further. But damn, I love me dem gp5 items.
I feel like randuins and shurelias are things I'd like to get on WW anyway. But I'm probably just saying that to blind myself from how much they would make him suck early game.
Maybe just one? It can be my xmas AAAAND birthday present, pretty please?
why do I bother writing guides if people don't read them?
What do you guys recommend when get to super-late game or you are quite fed? Played a ranked game today where I go for a CDR build, I got Frozen Heat, Wits, Wriggle,Visage, Merc then I manage to dominate. Got 4k gold at that point. Not an one side game though. Often we got 2 left or 1 left after exchanges. Apart from GA I don't know what to buy, I end up selling my Visage and wriggle for a Bloodthrister, a GA, and thornmail.
On March 21 2012 02:27 Caphe wrote: What do you guys recommend when get to super-late game or you are quite fed? Played a ranked game today where I go for a CDR build, I got Frozen Heat, Wits, Wriggle,Visage, Merc then I manage to dominate. Got 4k gold at that point. Not an one side game though. Open we got 2 left or 1 left after exchanges. Apart from GA I don't know what to buy, I end up selling my Visage and wriggle for a Bloodthrister, a GA, and thornmail.
Ideal final 6 item build is probably something like: Wit's Trinity Bloodrazor Frozen Heart GA Mercs +triple elixir.
At least IMO. I know a lot of people would criticize the lack of HP in the build, but I really don't think WW needs that much HP with 34-40% CDR with his Q.
Thanks alot Mog!! You still get Razor in a CDR build? I agree that WW doesn't need HP since late game you have like 300 armor and your Q can sustain you well enough. Tri-force seems nice, will get in next time I got fed . But is Visage still needed late game, if you only have Frozen <3 as your CDR you are no where near 40% reduction.
On March 21 2012 02:42 Caphe wrote: Thanks alot Mog!! You still get Razor in a CDR build? I agree that WW doesn't need HP since late game you have like 300 armor and your Q can sustain you well enough. Tri-force seems nice, will get in next time I got fed . But is Visage still needed late game, if you only have Frozen <3 as your CDR you are no where near 40% reduction.
Well, basically I'm saying I'd do: Wriggle's Wit's Triforce Frozen Heart GA Mercs then pump elixers and then upgrade Wriggle's to BR if I ever got that much money.
With blue elixir + Frozen Heart + Offensive CDR Mastery, you're at 34%. If you're specced 9/21/0 instead, you'll be capped.
I just think WW with just Wit's + Mercs is asking to get blown up by APs. Having GA as a focus deterrent + MRes seems more valuable to me, but if they're triple AD and you can freely ult their AP, Omen > GA.
Hmm, I havent had that problem. Could be that I just havent run into it yet, or the health boost from FM and Randuins gives me enough to survive the burst and I can lifesteal it up from there.
Then again though, I rarely end up in position to eat burst when playing ww because I just stand back until the initiation has already gone down and I can fully isolate someone.
TD, your build is a tanky WW build not a CDR build. But if you don't run in to initiate who will in your team? The other tanky guy on your team is your top/jungler right, sometime if you run double AP you will be the only one that tanky enough? I usually charge in together with another tanky team mate, then ulti their AP carry or AD carry the go from there.
On March 21 2012 12:28 Caphe wrote: TD, your build is a tanky WW build not a CDR build. But if you don't run in to initiate who will in your team? The other tanky guy on your team is your top/jungler right, sometime if you run double AP you will be the only one that tanky enough? I usually charge in together with another tanky team mate, then ulti their AP carry or AD carry the go from there.
My build has more CDR than Smash's actually.
And no, WW should not initiate, he is actually pretty bad at it. He is a secondary initiate at best: you wait for a teammate to go then you follow up when they split apart. The primary initiate is going to absorb a lot of damage and a lot of CC. Which is fine, if not for the fact that the only recourse WW has for his initiation is his ultimate, which gives you massive teamfight control through the ability to remove someone for the duration. Being stunned out of it early is the biggest single mistake you can make. You want it at full duration or as close too as humanly possible. This means that you need someone else to go in, take everything, and THEN follow up with your ultimate.
And if you cant lead with R (which you cant) he really has no way to initiate. Run at people and q them. Thats not so good.
The thing about initiating is everything depends upon what stage of the game you're at. In the early/mid game you can engage on an AP or AD carry with ult fairly easily, but when the AD carry starts getting 3 damage items suddenly you're saving ulti for the AD carry exclusively and most champions lose the ability to effectively initiate because their tanks just drive by CC you while running away and you get killed so fast by their AD.
Also depends on solo lane WW or jungle WW, solo is going to have a higher level and probably more farm so it's going to be easier to start a fight.
On May 25 2012 00:52 Chexx wrote: Did somebody save the umashi build from solomid? Because the guide is not online anymore and the matchup description was very helpful :<
Doran's Ring Boots Spirit Visage Frozen Heart Wit's End
I don't remember the rest. But after that point you should be able to pretty much build whatever you want since you'll be at like 38% CDR with 21 defense.
mercury, wriggles, wits<->mallet (I usually build phage first), whatever you need
This gives warwick the defense that he really needs, making him really tanky. He also does pretty good damage.
Usually, I save my ult for when they're running away or when they're ad gets into position (they don't start attacking right away, they try to get into a safe spot), at that point, a good chunk of the cc should be done and you should still be alive
I don't like a doran's ring opener. You lack the mobility from boots and the defense/sustain from cloth. You basically hope that 10 mp5 will give you enough mana that the extra Qs will heal you for 1k HP before your first back?
I don't think it's the best idea to have opening items on guides and such. I'm sure there are cases where you'd rather have doran's instead of boots3 or cloth5.
i build normally boots 3 never had any health issues. Depending on the enemy I build Wriggles or Wits end first after that boots tier 2 and then normally frozen heart and then the blue armor ^^
What are you doing in the lategame with warwick?
In the early and mid game I am doing pretty good but I have the feeling one we reach lategame I fall behind.
I guess I'll necro this thread because I've been trying out a new build for ww. I get an brawlers + ward first into a quick avarice blade + executioners calling for the gp10 30% crit chance and 18% lifesteal. I think its better then a wriggles beacuse it helps a lot with stronger ganks and more life steal from the crit procs. After ninja tabi boots I get a cloak and dagger then a hex-drinker (all interchanging depending on what I think I need the most). A ghostblade is epicly good for ww lategame as well as getting an ga then atmogs. I guess if I get really fed and it goes into late game an ie/PD combo would allow me to do a ton of damage and stay a huge threat though most of the fight.
On June 17 2012 08:53 Sermokala wrote: I guess I'll necro this thread because I've been trying out a new build for ww. I get an brawlers + ward first into a quick avarice blade + executioners calling for the gp10 30% crit chance and 18% lifesteal. I think its better then a wriggles beacuse it helps a lot with stronger ganks and more life steal from the crit procs. After ninja tabi boots I get a cloak and dagger then a hex-drinker (all interchanging depending on what I think I need the most). A ghostblade is epicly good for ww lategame as well as getting an ga then atmogs. I guess if I get really fed and it goes into late game an ie/PD combo would allow me to do a ton of damage and stay a huge threat though most of the fight.
that's the ugliest build I've ever heard in my entire life, no joke.
On June 17 2012 08:53 Sermokala wrote: I guess I'll necro this thread because I've been trying out a new build for ww. I get an brawlers + ward first into a quick avarice blade + executioners calling for the gp10 30% crit chance and 18% lifesteal. I think its better then a wriggles beacuse it helps a lot with stronger ganks and more life steal from the crit procs. After ninja tabi boots I get a cloak and dagger then a hex-drinker (all interchanging depending on what I think I need the most). A ghostblade is epicly good for ww lategame as well as getting an ga then atmogs. I guess if I get really fed and it goes into late game an ie/PD combo would allow me to do a ton of damage and stay a huge threat though most of the fight.
that's the ugliest build I've ever heard in my entire life, no joke.
???? but look at all the crit you'll be doing mad dmg
On June 17 2012 08:53 Sermokala wrote: I guess I'll necro this thread because I've been trying out a new build for ww. I get an brawlers + ward first into a quick avarice blade + executioners calling for the gp10 30% crit chance and 18% lifesteal. I think its better then a wriggles beacuse it helps a lot with stronger ganks and more life steal from the crit procs. After ninja tabi boots I get a cloak and dagger then a hex-drinker (all interchanging depending on what I think I need the most). A ghostblade is epicly good for ww lategame as well as getting an ga then atmogs. I guess if I get really fed and it goes into late game an ie/PD combo would allow me to do a ton of damage and stay a huge threat though most of the fight.
open avarice blade because that's just generally a great item and it's just like wriggles for clearing the jungle, except that the proc is like a 160 dmg crit instead of the 400 dmg madred proc, but that is all you need because warwick is already pretty fast
now since you cant just sit on that avarice blade you get an executioner's calling since it's just an all around and excellent item in most situations. with this you should be set for the early game
now, i know what you're thinking: after those two items, what i'd really need is more crit. so get another one of those staple bruiser items, the cloak and dagger, to help you with your damage needs
the next part i don't agree with though. he recommends hexdrinker but i think it's pretty dumb to spend that much gold on defense. should just go straight for ghostblade imo. but if it works for him it's alright, even if it's not the ideal build
but you do need some survivability so you should get the famous combo of guardian angel + atmogs, because not only is hp greatly valued on warwick, the ad from atmas is just perfect for him (even with the nerfed 1.5% ratio) because warwick scales amazingly with ad
then just finish your build with some common all around items like infinity edge and phantom dancer, a cheap little combo of items that are just useful in every situation and provide you with great utility
so as you can see this is actually quite a great build if you actually try to think about it for a second instead of just assuming it's bad because it doesn't follow the stale metagame
On June 18 2012 08:10 mcimba42 wrote: no you just dont see it man, just take a look
open avarice blade because that's just generally a great item and it's just like wriggles for clearing the jungle, except that the proc is like a 160 dmg crit instead of the 400 dmg madred proc, but that is all you need because warwick is already pretty fast
now since you cant just sit on that avarice blade you get an executioner's calling since it's just an all around and excellent item in most situations. with this you should be set for the early game
now, i know what you're thinking: after those two items, what i'd really need is more crit. so get another one of those staple bruiser items, the cloak and dagger, to help you with your damage needs
the next part i don't agree with though. he recommends hexdrinker but i think it's pretty dumb to spend that much gold on defense. should just go straight for ghostblade imo. but if it works for him it's alright, even if it's not the ideal build
but you do need some survivability so you should get the famous combo of guardian angel + atmogs, because not only is hp greatly valued on warwick, the ad from atmas is just perfect for him (even with the nerfed 1.5% ratio) because warwick scales amazingly with ad
then just finish your build with some common all around items like infinity edge and phantom dancer, a cheap little combo of items that are just useful in every situation and provide you with great utility
so as you can see this is actually quite a great build if you actually try to think about it for a second instead of just assuming it's bad because it doesn't follow the stale metagame
to be fair the avarice blade builds into a ghostblade. half of those items I said were situational after the arvarice blade+ executioners calling. I like the gp10 and the crits + lifesteal give me the ability to standup fight anyone foceing them to run away from me all the time while I chase them down with my e boost and red slow.
After that Its really situational. sometimes there are no tanks on my team and I build hard meat on ww and sometimes I need to build damage and I can dish that out in droves as well. I make far more buying wards instead of having a wriggles. yeah its only a 200 proc crit but it works outside of the jungle and procs more often.
I know its really fringe and I'm not saying its a great build but I don't know whats objectionably bad about it. It just feels like a good wits end (in the effect that it works on both the jungle and champs) that can pay for the wriggles ward in a little over a third of a time that wriggles gives you a free one while having lifesteal and a nice half ignite active. its also halfway inbetween wits and wriggles in price.
when you reach a higher level of play where people kite and position, you will quickly see that your build is extremely ineffective
there are very few bruisers that you can build *any* offensive items on, let alone *exclusively* offensive items. range trumps all in LoL, so the less range you have, the less leeway you have to build offensive items
if you start building WW correctly now, however, you'll be in for less of a rough ride when you reach higher levels of play where builds such as the one you currently employ are less useless
but what I'm trying to get at is that I don't understand is why a wits end/wriggles is better then arvarice/executioners opening for jungle. I get how wits works with his ult and the 40% as boost as well as a proc that equals wriggles but without the chance. I think my math was a bit off calculating for the wriggles wards.
you are warwick, at level 7, 75% HP trying to gank an enemy annie, at level 9, at 100% HP with stun up. your ult cannot crit, your Q cannot crit. the only way you make use of critical strike is through auto attacks. in order to get any use out of any of the stats from YOUR build you need to be auto-attacking annie. your auto range is 125. her shortest spell range is 625. if she sees you coming and stuns you then unloads on you, you die. if she doesn't see you coming and you get your ult off and Q off, you don't kill her anyway because your ult nor your Q make use of crit, she takes one step back, then she kills you.
this is a typical situation in a typical game. if your current build works, you are at a level of play where the annie will not only not see you, but will not react or run when she DOES see you, and try to stand and fight you with auto attacks. in these situations, your build might be okay. standing and fighting is very good for warwick due to his passive.
in a real game against competent opponents, defensive items will be much stronger. defensive items that give offensive stats (wit's end) are the bees knees. but often you won't even get to build those, and will have to focus completely on pure defensive items (frozen heart, spirit visage) just to get your job done
i hope that helped. if not, add me in-game "SG guitarasaurus" and i can show you why your build will not work against competent players
When you're trying to theorycraft something new, it's best to look at the numbers carefully, rather than saying "this is kind of like X but better in this way".
We assume that at the time we could get any of these, we will be about level 9. At level 9, Warwick has 87 AD and 0.679*1.2304 = 0.835 ASpd. Hunter's Call increases this to 1.107. This gives us a DPS of 72.645 without Hunter's Call, and 96.309 with.
The value of the Wriggle's ward is approximately equal to the gp10. We will ignore those for this comparison.
Executioner's Calling simply multiplies your DPS by 1.27, then adds the 4 DPS from the proc. This gives you a DPS of 96.259 without Hunter's Call, and 126.312 with.
Wriggle's adds 23 AD, giving you 91.85 DPS without Hunter's Call, and 121.77 with. The Wriggle's proc adds an expected 85 damage per attack, giving 162.825 DPS without Hunter's Call, and 215.865 with, for jungle monsters. Your DPS vs. Champions is only marginally worse, and calling the proc "equal" to Wriggle's is an absolute joke. As far as the other stats go, 30 armor has significantly higher gold value than 6% lifesteal. This isn't even considering the fact that Wriggle's also costs 500 gold less than Avarice+Execs. If we're looking at DPS/gold, Wriggle's actually exceeds Avarice+Execs, even vs. Champions.
Wit's adds 40% ASpd, and 42 damage, giving you 142.803 DPS without Hunter's Call, and 177.845 with. It doesn't give any wards/gp10, or any other weird utility. But the vastly higher DPS in all cases speaks for itself.
On June 18 2012 11:08 Sermokala wrote: I think my math was a bit off calculating for the wriggles wards.
I think your math was way off calculating a lot of things.
Personally, I think Exec's actually has the possibility to be really good, but Warwick is not the person I would think of getting it on first at all. Crit needs baseine DPS stats to make it cost-effective, and Warwick has no business buying that much AD/AS.
On June 18 2012 12:27 TheYango wrote: Personally, I think Exec's actually has the possibility to be really good, but Warwick is not the person I would think of getting it on first at all. Crit needs baseine DPS stats to make it cost-effective, and Warwick has no business buying that much AD/AS.
Nocturne, on the other hand, actually has baseline DPS stats from his Q & W that it might be more appealing (I already like Ghostblade as "this is my only offensive item" for this reason) and noct's passive can also benefit from crit (makes for some rather amusing wraith clears when everything pops on q+auto)
Exec calling + tank items on noct sound pretty good - basically end up being a lifesteal tank. Seems like it'd be particularly nice against low-cc opponents like vlad where you already want the exec calling anyway.
This is getting away from warwick though. I should run the numbers for nocturne and put them in his thread.
On June 18 2012 12:27 TheYango wrote: Personally, I think Exec's actually has the possibility to be really good, but Warwick is not the person I would think of getting it on first at all. Crit needs baseine DPS stats to make it cost-effective, and Warwick has no business buying that much AD/AS.
warwick has a LOT of business building AS, as it directly boosts the damage of his strong passibe
On June 18 2012 12:27 TheYango wrote: Personally, I think Exec's actually has the possibility to be really good, but Warwick is not the person I would think of getting it on first at all. Crit needs baseine DPS stats to make it cost-effective, and Warwick has no business buying that much AD/AS.
Nocturne, on the other hand, actually has baseline DPS stats from his Q & W that it might be more appealing (I already like Ghostblade as "this is my only offensive item" for this reason) and noct's passive can also benefit from crit (makes for some rather amusing wraith clears when everything pops on q+auto)
Exec calling + tank items on noct sound pretty good - basically end up being a lifesteal tank. Seems like it'd be particularly nice against low-cc opponents like vlad where you already want the exec calling anyway.
This is getting away from warwick though. I should run the numbers for nocturne and put them in his thread.
warwick has 2100 gold worth of AS steroid + 500 gold worth more in offensive base stats than noct does. Noct has 3070(+1050 if shield triggs) gold worth of steroids. So while steroids are active, both guys have pretty much same base gold value of autoattacks.
On June 18 2012 12:27 TheYango wrote: Personally, I think Exec's actually has the possibility to be really good, but Warwick is not the person I would think of getting it on first at all. Crit needs baseine DPS stats to make it cost-effective, and Warwick has no business buying that much AD/AS.
warwick has a LOT of business building AS, as it directly boosts the damage of his strong passibe
Not really, as the extent of AS that he really needs is wits in order to assist in animation canceling for chasing purposes. Even then, it's perfectly acceptable (tho somewhat uncommon as wits is just a superb all-around bruiser item) to get away with foregoing wits, and solely using his AS steroid, maybe using few AS runes to help out a bit.
The point that yango was trying to make is that, in the trifecta of AD, AS and Crit, WW typically does not end up getting enough of both AD and AS to warrant getting any Crit.
On June 18 2012 12:27 TheYango wrote: Personally, I think Exec's actually has the possibility to be really good, but Warwick is not the person I would think of getting it on first at all. Crit needs baseine DPS stats to make it cost-effective, and Warwick has no business buying that much AD/AS.
warwick has a LOT of business building AS, as it directly boosts the damage of his strong passibe
Not really, as the extent of AS that he really needs is wits in order to assist in animation canceling for chasing purposes. Even then, it's perfectly acceptable (tho somewhat uncommon as wits is just a superb all-around bruiser item) to get away with foregoing wits, and solely using his AS steroid, maybe using few AS runes to help out a bit.
The point that yango was trying to make is that, in the trifecta of AD, AS and Crit, WW typically does not end up getting enough of both AD and AS to warrant getting any Crit.
. You dont need both AD or AS in a kit to justify building crit. All you need is a decent gold worth of steroids, and then use the gold you get ingame to buy the rest of the stats. And when comparing noct to ww in this regard, ww isnt significantly worse going that route.
On June 18 2012 12:27 TheYango wrote: Personally, I think Exec's actually has the possibility to be really good, but Warwick is not the person I would think of getting it on first at all. Crit needs baseine DPS stats to make it cost-effective, and Warwick has no business buying that much AD/AS.
warwick has a LOT of business building AS, as it directly boosts the damage of his strong passibe
Not really, as the extent of AS that he really needs is wits in order to assist in animation canceling for chasing purposes. Even then, it's perfectly acceptable (tho somewhat uncommon as wits is just a superb all-around bruiser item) to get away with foregoing wits, and solely using his AS steroid, maybe using few AS runes to help out a bit.
The point that yango was trying to make is that, in the trifecta of AD, AS and Crit, WW typically does not end up getting enough of both AD and AS to warrant getting any Crit.
. You dont need both AD or AS in a kit to justify building crit. All you need is a decent gold worth of steroids, and then use the gold you get ingame to buy the rest of the stats. And when comparing noct to ww in this regard, ww isnt significantly worse going that route.
Due to the nature of his kit and how his teamfight role plays out, yes, he is.
On June 18 2012 12:20 Sermokala wrote: that makes a lot of sense. Thanks for explaining it to me. I'll remember to do more math and check it harder before I suggest a new build.
Yea, Yango's the man. Sorry for being a dick about just dismissing the build. There's no excuse for me to just be a jerk like that, but sometimes I am anyways, so, sorry bout that.
On June 18 2012 12:27 TheYango wrote: Personally, I think Exec's actually has the possibility to be really good, but Warwick is not the person I would think of getting it on first at all. Crit needs baseine DPS stats to make it cost-effective, and Warwick has no business buying that much AD/AS.
warwick has a LOT of business building AS, as it directly boosts the damage of his strong passibe
Not really, as the extent of AS that he really needs is wits in order to assist in animation canceling for chasing purposes. Even then, it's perfectly acceptable (tho somewhat uncommon as wits is just a superb all-around bruiser item) to get away with foregoing wits, and solely using his AS steroid, maybe using few AS runes to help out a bit.
The point that yango was trying to make is that, in the trifecta of AD, AS and Crit, WW typically does not end up getting enough of both AD and AS to warrant getting any Crit.
. You dont need both AD or AS in a kit to justify building crit. All you need is a decent gold worth of steroids, and then use the gold you get ingame to buy the rest of the stats. And when comparing noct to ww in this regard, ww isnt significantly worse going that route.
There are a lot of things that make crit worse on Warwick.
1. no scaling on his ult, which eats up a significant portion of time he could otherwise spend attacking. 2. lopsided returns between AS/onhit vs. AD. WW benefits more than the average bear from straight attack speed than attack damage due to his passive and onhit effects are overvalued over AD due to 1:1 scaling on his ult vs. AD's 0.4:1 scaling per hit. 3. no safe way through the thick of the fight. WW has to trudge through teams to within 700 range to ult his target, and even then he can be peeled off fairly easily without proper isolation. Because of this, he doesn't have a lot of gold to spare of offensive stats. spending more than 3-4K total on offensive stats is extremely rare on WW because if you do this, you tend to get blown up before you can even start attacking relevant targets.
Nocturne on the other hand deals his damage from his ult instantly, can use his ult and W to circumvent the thick of a fight and peeling attempts to stick to relevant targets, and scales well on balanced offensive stats.
Essentially, what you need to justify building crit is both a reasonable commitment to building damage and a commitment to attacking during fights. Warwick doesn't have either of these, as he has to wade through enemies, duck and weave on low HP using his Q, and pull himself out of being able to attack for 2 seconds with his ult every fight.
On June 18 2012 12:27 TheYango wrote: Personally, I think Exec's actually has the possibility to be really good, but Warwick is not the person I would think of getting it on first at all. Crit needs baseine DPS stats to make it cost-effective, and Warwick has no business buying that much AD/AS.
warwick has a LOT of business building AS, as it directly boosts the damage of his strong passibe
Not really, as the extent of AS that he really needs is wits in order to assist in animation canceling for chasing purposes. Even then, it's perfectly acceptable (tho somewhat uncommon as wits is just a superb all-around bruiser item) to get away with foregoing wits, and solely using his AS steroid, maybe using few AS runes to help out a bit.
The point that yango was trying to make is that, in the trifecta of AD, AS and Crit, WW typically does not end up getting enough of both AD and AS to warrant getting any Crit.
. You dont need both AD or AS in a kit to justify building crit. All you need is a decent gold worth of steroids, and then use the gold you get ingame to buy the rest of the stats. And when comparing noct to ww in this regard, ww isnt significantly worse going that route.
You need to be able to afford buying ~2-3 major plain AD/AS items for crit to actually outscale the superior baseline cost-effectiveness of onhit items. Nocturne has abilities that scale off raw AD, which favors actually buying actual AD. Warwick does better with onhit procs rather than true AD because of how he has no AD ratios and how his ult provides full effect for on-hits and only diminished effect for true AD. And with the practicalities of a real game, you can't afford getting more than 2 damage items on Warwick, so in all likelihood, it's hard for most of your true-AD based options to beat Wit's+Triforce.
On June 20 2012 00:45 JokerSan wrote: How do you approach lanewick's bad matchups (Olaf and Darius come to mind)?
I like to take tp/ghost on lanewick. Is that horribly wrong?
It's pretty wrong. Flash ignite is really strong on him and while I could see maybe dropping ignite for TP, flash is a must for flash ults.
I've never played the Olaf or Darius matchup with lanewick, but I don't really see why either would be problematic. Hungering strike is cash money vs. true damage or mixed damage types. I would probably just run double gold/10 -> Chalice -> Kindlegem -> FH in these matchups. Kindlegem + HoG would give you the necessary HP buffer to prolong trades and get the mileage you need out of your Q vs. their mana pool to out attrition them.
You should try and gank @ 2(if you're feeling risky) or 4. WW's jungle is too slow to keep him even w/ the lanes, you MUST gank. Yes his ganks suck, but they still do the job.
On July 08 2012 15:41 czylu wrote: You should try and gank @ 2(if you're feeling risky) or 4. WW's jungle is too slow to keep him even w/ the lanes, you MUST gank. Yes his ganks suck, but they still do the job.
I really like boots + 1-2 pots, skill QE, start wraiths & red, gank a nearby lane 2, dont gank again til 6. Can even take some gank tax if the gank is successful enough to force an enemy bluepill. Your jungling won't really suffer THAT much without the point in W at 1 (you'll have people leashing, and you'll still have full health for the gank) and post-gank you'll be 3 soon enough and have smite up for your blue buff.
On July 08 2012 14:46 nosliw wrote: jungle WW feels slow. Strong sustain but no AOE. Do I just farm as fast as I can to lvl 6? Should I back for any items in-between?
Honestly.. a lot of times you will want to just get red&blue and camp in bushes of top and mid awaiting for a chance to gank, while leeching some xp.
On July 08 2012 14:46 nosliw wrote: jungle WW feels slow. Strong sustain but no AOE. Do I just farm as fast as I can to lvl 6? Should I back for any items in-between?
Honestly.. a lot of times you will want to just get red&blue and camp in bushes of top and mid awaiting for a chance to gank, while leeching some xp.
It really depends on champions and lane/jungle matchup. If you know their jungler is going to gank at 2/4/x, you should be going into their jungle at that time to clear it out and potentially jack some buffs. Basically any time you see their jungler in a lane you should be checking for counterjungling opportunities which will set them back.
Just played him for the first time since the s3 patch, wow he feels nerfed. He's better relatively at clearing the jungle and ganking power but jesus the global hit to resistances just crushes his healing. His late game doesn't feel anything like the unstoppable farmed ww of old.
He didn't feel that bad to me. Frozen fist also pretty boss on him.
I went with machete -> rush razor -> boots > Kindlegem + Sightstone + Glacial > SV > finish frozen fist
After that I rounded it out with Randuins, though Runic or GA would have worked too. I did end up running a blue pot for the last 10% CDR (game went pretty long), though I considered some shenannigans like getting 4% CDR from masteries and 6% from runes.
Well with madreds and ionic spark gone. The malady nerf if you don't build AP, there's been a weird shift in on hit items. And of course you can't talk about on hit without mentioning warwick. Specifically he gains a lot from muramana and blade of the ruined king. It's much less tanky than old on hit builds, but I think (not positive) it does more damage.
With all three items(muramana, bork, wits), you can 1 shot squishy targets with an ult and Q auto. You come close to one shotting them with just the ult.
I've been jungling Warwick a bit. Been doing 9/21/0 machete and two ward start because he doesn't need potions although I'm considering doing 21/9/0 just to get to lvl 6 faster. The two wards really help since I like to just farm to 6 without ganking only counter ganking if needed so top benefits the most from me starting two wards. Still feels like a weak start even when top or mid benefit from two wards.
So now I have been trying 21/9/0 on Jungle WW and it does get you lvl 6 faster but you are incredibly squishy compared to 9/21/0 WW meaning WW does need at 1-2 potions compared to 0, but after madreds he is fine meaning you can still start at least 1 ward. I get all the masteries that are for faster jungle clear, butcher and even blast/arcane knowledge since havoc is pretty useless. Fury is not that useful since WW already has his Hunters Call so I like arcane knowledge for stronger Hungering Strikes.
Weak to counter jungling, can do a ghost gank pre 6, but hopefully the one ward helped top enough that it does not matter I had little pressure. I like to go mobility boots before wriggles and then just gank everywhere as soon as possible. I've had few games where I got the most or 2nd most kills as WW is pretty good at finishing people of in ganks. Though I've had the same problems as others that WW is still squishy late game even if you build defensive items. The most offensive oriented items I get are just wits ends and frozen gauntlet if that. Though if I get to late game with WW usually my team has a big lead if I don't get to late game it's because they lost early. This is just my normal games experience though.
just built the newly buffed spirit of the spectral wraith and it felt really synergistic, might change my feelings about the current lackluster quality of the tank build.
Wit's is nice, but Tear/Manamune/Muramana on top of that feels like not enough defense for a regular game. I felt that Locket was a good buy, Armor alongside Razor is nice and, of course, it's Locket.
On February 15 2013 01:06 obesechicken13 wrote: I played a bot game a while back with muramana and botrk and wits. 1 shot squishies with ult, Q, botrk active, auto.
Whoaaa, does muramana proc on every strike from his ult ???
On February 15 2013 01:06 obesechicken13 wrote: I played a bot game a while back with muramana and botrk and wits. 1 shot squishies with ult, Q, botrk active, auto.
Whoaaa, does muramana proc on every strike from his ult ???
If only it didn't take forever to charge a tear. You basically suck at charging it until after you upgrade it into a Manamune. I wish toggling E on and off would charge it!
On February 15 2013 01:06 obesechicken13 wrote: I played a bot game a while back with muramana and botrk and wits. 1 shot squishies with ult, Q, botrk active, auto.
Whoaaa, does muramana proc on every strike from his ult ???
Since they all count as single attacks, yes.
looks like my new wolf build is
boots 5, wits end statikk shiv, malady, botrk, muramana.
I like BotRK SV Frozen Heart. Max CDR and (I felt) enough mana pool to kill everything. But dear lord BotRK WW is so good. It's almost back to the days of 15 minute MBR solo Baron.
I've been playing a lot of top WW at plat-diamond level those last weeks and I'm starting to do quite well.
The idea is to have tear for the endless Q spam which builds later on into muramana which is very stronk on him (as you guys had already figured out). The thing tho is that as ww you need to be tanky and have cdr and have something to make up for his horrible horrible pushing power. I need to try out BotRK but for now i've been going sunfire straight after an early tears, it gives you hp and armor for laning and teamfights (assuming you're against a standard bruiser, AP tops are an other story... fuck elise and akali) and pushing power.
Pushing allows you to roam which -as you all know- is what warwick is good at : getting into skirmishes where people are low and cleaning up thanks to E or just giving a full ult to your mid for a guaranteed kill. After tears/sunfire I go for whatever I need depending on how the game is going, usually spirit visage for cdr/mr/more hp/regen. Then muramana or more tankyness and well everyone knows ww is a monster late game.
I need to play even more games and try other things but basically the story of most of my games have been like : if i don't die early in lane because of a misplay and I'm playing against a bruiser I crush my opponent when I have tears with infinite Q spam. I then start roaming and snowball. OR I just die in lane near my tower, lose 2 lvl of xp and fall extremely behind, I catchup only if the opposing team derps low life behind towers thanks to R and E. OR I face an AP champ and have a very hard time. Take chalice instead of tear and hope for the best.
PS : warwick is an amazing counter to the fotm train aka ap trynd. AP trynd doesn't do enough damage to kill you if you can spam Q, he's usually low when split pushing so you catch him with E and can CC him long enough for your team to kill him thanks to R.
I faced a top wick that went 3 d blades into sunfire vs my top garen and even after getting some early kills on him he was just unkillable. Really obnoxious build
Topwick season 2 main here trying to make it work in s3. I also stumbled upon sunfire + botrk + visage core which is ridic and from my experience crushes health stacking fotm bruisers like renek or garen. I tried going tear a few times because his mana costs and mana pool are still atrocious but it seems so meh because of how slow you get stacks and how tear delays your early item timings. Going tear, are you starting charm + wards + pots?
Also what are you using for runes and masteries? I'm running hybrid pen reds, armor yellow, mr/level blue, AD quints. Tried MS quints and hybrid pen quints but I'm liking the AD most because of how terrible his early last hitting is and how often you are pushed to tower within the first few levels where you have a lot of trouble last hitting under tower. AD also gives him a bit extra trading power when AAing and a few extra damage on his ult so not totally wasted.
What kind of timing are you upgrading tear to Manamune? This also helps stacking as your pretty much limited by the internal cd and having something to attack.
Atm I'm starting double charm + 3 pots (yes I like the mana that much). charm+ward+pots is prolly safer tho. You build stacks slowly but since glacial/fh is now quite bad I don't really know what else you could build other than tear, chalice alone doesn't seem enough and you don't want early mr against say renekton.
As for runes I'm running mpen reds armor yellow cdr blue and armor or ad quints. I take armor quints when I feel the matchup will be really hard and all I have to do is not die before 6. Ms quints have always been good too on him but ww is already weak early so yeah... As for masteries I tried a lot of things and change them here and there depending on the matchup but I mainly run a weird 9/12/9. The next thing i'll try is prolly not taking the mpen mastery and putting more points into defence as ap is a bit useless and people just don't seem to buy mr anymore.
You are completely right tho about the last hitting under tower, very often you'll get pushed early levels and ww is bad at last hiting. For this reason I take the +4 dmg to minions into offence and sometimes ad quints.
On February 27 2013 23:24 Tooplark wrote: I like BotRK SV Frozen Heart. Max CDR and (I felt) enough mana pool to kill everything. But dear lord BotRK WW is so good. It's almost back to the days of 15 minute MBR solo Baron.
I should mention that this is junglewick. Imo, tear doesn't make sense at all on jungle but has validity when top. As an alternative to early tear for mana problems, has anyone tried Catalyst?
Also, glacial and frozen heart are still quite strong. Glacial is a cheap upgrade from chainmail and blue crystal that gives you 10% cdr, and one frozen heart is still practically mandatory on each team.
On March 01 2013 02:17 mordek wrote: What kind of timing are you upgrading tear to Manamune? This also helps stacking as your pretty much limited by the internal cd and having something to attack.
I'm wondering this actually. The few times I build a tear I never even upgraded it because other items have much higher priority and even manamune doesn't really give ww anything until it gets maxed out. 1400 gold early game is a lot for a champ that farms terribly until he gets sunfire cape. And once I have a cape and can actually push and farm, that 1400 gold is 1/2 the cost of a botrk which you don't need to stack and makes you unstoppable.
On March 01 2013 02:25 RouaF wrote: Atm I'm starting double charm + 3 pots (yes I like the mana that much). charm+ward+pots is prolly safer tho. You build stacks slowly but since glacial/fh is now quite bad I don't really know what else you could build other than tear, chalice alone doesn't seem enough and you don't want early mr against say renekton.
As for runes I'm running mpen reds armor yellow cdr blue and armor or ad quints. I take armor quints when I feel the matchup will be really hard and all I have to do is not die before 6. Ms quints have always been good too on him but ww is already weak early so yeah... As for masteries I tried a lot of things and change them here and there depending on the matchup but I mainly run a weird 9/12/9. The next thing i'll try is prolly not taking the mpen mastery and putting more points into defence as ap is a bit useless and people just don't seem to buy mr anymore.
You are completely right tho about the last hitting under tower, very often you'll get pushed early levels and ww is bad at last hiting. For this reason I take the +4 dmg to minions into offence and sometimes ad quints.
Interesting, do you just sell the 2nd charm?
Also I would consider running hybrid pen. You lose 2.25 magic penetration but gain 8.1 armor penetration. Useful even just to help BOTRK, which is core especially after the buff imo. WW autoattacks a ton anyways even without BOTRK so seems like a no brainer. Attack speed on the PBE BOTRK makes it even better for WW, plus now theres the execute. His burst damage when doing his full combo will be completely insane, Q + ult + botrk active + Q will be something like 42% max health + 5x 5% current health procs (from ult) + 500+ damage from ult. That's not even counting the extra AD or active from a muramana if you build that.
Masteries I agree there's no standout option. I still feel the 8% mpen is pretty necessary, it noticeably helps your Q damage early game. I also at least16 in defensive to get tenacity since WW is so easily kited. Plus block obv megauseful. I've tried everything so far from 14/16 (for both armpen and mpen), 9/21, 11/16/3, 9/14/7 (getting 2x relentless instead of tenacious). Haven't love anything yet tbh, 9/14/7 prolly fav so far.
I think I remember going early madreds, then... hmm It was when I crushed this Yorick top, which shouldn't happen but he was bad
I think I went madreds, phage, zeal, or something like that haha I got Glacial too
hard to push so I went the madreds lol
I think the new Spirit Visage is a pretty good idea on WW especially against AP heavy comp Even if it isn't, going ninja tabi, spirit visage doesn't sound too bad
I have been enjoying ww jungle for awhile now. I've been building madred's and then pieces of glacial / visage / botrk depending on the game flow until i have all of those and boots. Curious if people think it's worthwhile to get phage/mallet on him by midgame? I know ww has the speed to chase with E and boots but I find when the ult is on cooldown its hard to set stuff up for teammates. I love picking off people of position with ult but its a pain if they're too tanky for initial burst and they escape (nidalee, hecarim) Part of the champ or would mallet be helpful? The other core items are just so good on him.
I'd say build the glacial into ice fist if you really want a slow, against speedy enemies for example. I've personally been going ninja tabi, spirit golem, cloak, botrk, visage (in that order) for some tankiness and relying on others to really kill people... it doesn't snowball at all though. Botrk has the slow you want for when you want to gank with ult on cd. Ulti has low cd on higher levels though, and getting other items than phage will be more important earlier...
That makes a lot of sense. I've been getting frozen heart if no one else is but for sticking to people ibg may make more sense. Gonna test out some ideas I have soon and report back
Triforce was always good on him but hard to build because of its lack of CDR/defense. IBG really fixes that (though it's still in this awkward place of "not a frozen heart")
Yeah triforce is really nice its just so much of a commitment to damage when it seems BotrK is just the better "single" damage item for him. Too expensive to have both so I'm liking the IBG idea more and more. Much smoother.
Plus while ww loves every part of triforce, he doesn't make full use of the sheen proc since he only has his Q and W to proc it with and neither is all that spammable.
With the new wits end and d ring changes could topwick possibly mount a comeback? New wits looks great but not sure if it will be better as a single damage item compared to botrk which is still so good. With D ring change ww can start ring + pots or ring + ward which will help his early game a ton. Still godawful at farming though
On June 12 2013 23:15 DrunkenOne wrote: With the new wits end and d ring changes could topwick possibly mount a comeback? New wits looks great but not sure if it will be better as a single damage item compared to botrk which is still so good. With D ring change ww can start ring + pots or ring + ward which will help his early game a ton. Still godawful at farming though
A comeback? Warwick's been king the whole time, people have just forgotten.
I dunno about Wit's being so good. Basically you'd buy it so that you can win sustained trades vs AP champs, but there are almost no AP champs that you can force sustained trades against that you don't already win. Rumble is like the only candidate I can think of, maybe Zac. Against people like Vlad Wit's isn't useful cause he's not going to stand still while you auto, you can only trade with Qs (although it gives big damage to ult, might be worth trying).
Been playing some tankwick again. Saw him on Bob's stream and tried him over a long time. Really enjoyed the build i got from the stream. The 2 core items are SV and FH. insta 40% cdr makes WW insanely quickly into a proper teamfighter. Against some tops i'd still would like to get sunfire, seeing as WW's biggest weakness is the damn pushing power. Your early kinda sucks up to 6 I think. But seeing as some opposing laners want to start trading at their 6 you seem increadibly strong. Been getting tanky items after the core and can't seem to find any real offensive items I like. Seems a bit strange to get Wits later on, but it might work. Dring start seems to make the most sense. Or maybe a flask cause that early mana starvation while you are constantly getting pushed kinda ruins your cs. Still suprised how much dmg the little wolfie can do. Ofc you should pick him when you see the opposing team doesnt have too much cc to cancel your ultimate and that your laning opponent isnt some godly ganker. Don't really see my ultimate being cancelled too fast playing in D5 with lots of plat players.
On September 20 2013 01:24 Basaest wrote: Been playing some tankwick again. Saw him on Bob's stream and tried him over a long time. Really enjoyed the build i got from the stream. The 2 core items are SV and FH. insta 40% cdr makes WW insanely quickly into a proper teamfighter. Against some tops i'd still would like to get sunfire, seeing as WW's biggest weakness is the damn pushing power. Your early kinda sucks up to 6 I think. But seeing as some opposing laners want to start trading at their 6 you seem increadibly strong. Been getting tanky items after the core and can't seem to find any real offensive items I like. Seems a bit strange to get Wits later on, but it might work. Dring start seems to make the most sense. Or maybe a flask cause that early mana starvation while you are constantly getting pushed kinda ruins your cs. Still suprised how much dmg the little wolfie can do. Ofc you should pick him when you see the opposing team doesnt have too much cc to cancel your ultimate and that your laning opponent isnt some godly ganker. Don't really see my ultimate being cancelled too fast playing in D5 with lots of plat players.
Interesting. When I play top WW, I usually rush botrk, then go for SV + FH, but do you think it's better to get those first, then go tanky?
Also, sometimes I've gone for frozen fist instead of FH for the slow + bonus damage, but I'm not sure if it's worth it. Thoughts?
BotRK might work, the SV FH rush simply means you get tanky really fast. I've seemed to be able to crush lanes pretty well by the time i would get BotRK. The max cdr gap gives you loads of strenght anyway and if you delay the FH SV core for smt else you might not just feel as powerful of a tank. Q heal is still kinda ridiculous. I should still try BotRk first.
Generally you want to go teamfighting as soon as you hit 6, the shitty waveclear kinda needs you to. Ofcourse the teamfights have to yield smt or your oppposing laner will get way too much free time on his hands
Only go teamfight at 6 if your other lanes need it or you are facing a laner you'll never get a Q off onto. Q harass into all-in is so oppressive at 6-9, don't squander it.
Yeah, kinda wrote that last part wrong, what i meant by saying that you should start teamfighting early is that you shouldnt atleast imo be a dedicated splitpusher like most of the other champs that go top. Dragon fights and etc are simply great places for you. If the situation allows for earlier midgame fights then you should be happy. Can't exactly say when I usually finish the core or atleast be half done with it, but if you can at that time rally your team (they somehow end up mid or smt) you are so tanky and deal great dmg, so dont waste that. And that slow pushing power simply hurts, you are still somewhat of a shen who is just a 1v1 bully at that point (and you can often 1v2 much better) but you lack his ultimate.
Played him a bit as well for the same reasons (bob's stream). He still suffers from all his major issues in lane but the fast 40% CDR makes him a monster given that his ult is ul like every 40 seconds so he can catch people all day. But yeah he still has horrible farming/last hitting, terrible wave clear (especially mid/late game when other champs can almost instaclear a wave and WW is forced to autoattack), ridiculous mana costs/mana pool, no escape/gap closer, can't really support ganks til 6 (although 6 usually nets a kill), no real scaling besides CDR, etc. Dat burst so good though. Also his W is amazing for autoattack dependent teams and taking turrets.
botrk is a decent item on ww, but I think there are better damage items on him: sorc shoes, haunting guise, sunfire, abyssal. botrk has a few issues, in that it loads too much of his damage onto his ultimate and that you're not going to get armor pen.
on another note, i used to love playing ww in season 2 and would love to bring him back into my champion pool, but the main reason i haven't been playing him is that he kinda seems like a worse zac...
On September 20 2013 19:45 Duvon wrote: Only go teamfight at 6 if your other lanes need it or you are facing a laner you'll never get a Q off onto. Q harass into all-in is so oppressive at 6-9, don't squander it.
All in at 6 with Q spam is really obnoxious, most people dont expect it tbh.
As for jungle warwick (i'm diamond IV) i play him with some degree of sucess, i go utility or damage it depends.
I go madred, wits end, sunfire/SV
hard pre 6 if they have a good jungler, if u can manage to go to 6 without a lot of death on your team, he will net 100% kills and can snowball your lanes very very hard. Very good midgame champ, punish lots of positionning mistakes by your opponents
On September 21 2013 06:00 APurpleCow wrote: botrk is a decent item on ww, but I think there are better damage items on him: sorc shoes, haunting guise, sunfire, abyssal. botrk has a few issues, in that it loads too much of his damage onto his ultimate and that you're not going to get armor pen.
on another note, i used to love playing ww in season 2 and would love to bring him back into my champion pool, but the main reason i haven't been playing him is that he kinda seems like a worse zac...
please don't buy sorc on warwick unless there is absolutely 0 cc in the opposing team lol. You need mercs almost all game or tabi if the opposing team is ad heavy. Playing it cute and buying sorc won't work after the laning phase has ended. Haunting guise ... I don't know maybe if you're really far ahead ? The thing with botrk is that it gives you pushing power and EVEN more chasing power with the active+E for ridiculous move speed, pen items don't. Sunfire can be good has it gives you tankiness and pushing power.
On September 21 2013 06:00 APurpleCow wrote: botrk is a decent item on ww, but I think there are better damage items on him: sorc shoes, haunting guise, sunfire, abyssal. botrk has a few issues, in that it loads too much of his damage onto his ultimate and that you're not going to get armor pen.
on another note, i used to love playing ww in season 2 and would love to bring him back into my champion pool, but the main reason i haven't been playing him is that he kinda seems like a worse zac...
please don't buy sorc on warwick unless there is absolutely 0 cc in the opposing team lol. You need mercs almost all game or tabi if the opposing team is ad heavy. Playing it cute and buying sorc won't work after the laning phase has ended. Haunting guise ... I don't know maybe if you're really far ahead ? The thing with botrk is that it gives you pushing power and EVEN more chasing power with the active+E for ridiculous move speed, pen items don't. Sunfire can be good has it gives you tankiness and pushing power.
On September 21 2013 09:49 wei2coolman wrote: New Triforce should be godly on warwick, Q + auto attack, chunks tons.
>__>
no =(
his cooldowns are too long to use triforce pre-cdr. AP is bad on him, crit is bad on him, attack speed is bad on him, and AD is bad on him.
and he doesn't get any APen to make the sheen proc matter late =(
How is AS bad on him? He has very high BAS and his passive scales heavily off AS. He gets plenty from his W but not enough to reach the cap with a realistic item build.
I wouldn't recommend Triforce, but Wits is an awesome item for wolfie.
On September 21 2013 09:49 wei2coolman wrote: New Triforce should be godly on warwick, Q + auto attack, chunks tons.
>__>
no =(
his cooldowns are too long to use triforce pre-cdr. AP is bad on him, crit is bad on him, attack speed is bad on him, and AD is bad on him.
and he doesn't get any APen to make the sheen proc matter late =(
The only really bad stat on tri-force is the AP. Rest is actually not that bad. Attack speed is a primary stat for WW and why is AD/crit bad? Surely AD/crit isn't his primary luxury stats, but they synergize well with his kit, because he enjoys auto-attacking.
I did try some weird shit like tri+frozen+sv, but i didn't really know what to get after.
If you can farm a triforce, it'd be great. I don't know where people get the idea that triforce is bad. If you could somehow farm triforce you'd be pretty fucking beastly. Especially combined with blade, it's just ridiculous to say that triforce could possibly be bad.
Sadly, it's rarely ever going to happen, so you're stuck with blade+tank as the standard build..
Like the only semi-wasted stat is AP(AP only good on creeps/monsters).
Every other stat is useful, even if it's a secondary stat.
The problem with triforce on Warwick is that Warwick is crap. If you build him like other champions he's just straight up weaker. He has a niche where you can cap CDR and go full tank and that lets you spam Q's and you can get a lot of strength out of that. If you try to build him like a regular bruiser though you're going to have to ask yourself why not just play a regular bruiser.
Because late-game Warwick is better than 80% of all bruisers in the game? Besides, just because a champion is considered under-powered does not mean you shouldn't be playing him.
I still think SV + FH + botrk is much better than any build with triforce. Botrk synergizes much better than triforce since it adds 5x procs on his ult + the active. With Q->ult->Q->botrk active you can almost 100-0 squishies. WWs farming is so abysmal that you aren't realistically going to get more items than that anyways. Even if I somehow got more fed I would probably get more tanky items instead of triforce. WW has enough burst and sustained damage without it.
If you've already got the SV/FH bulk, Triforce is going to crush people. WW has huge base AD and his Q drops down to 3.6 seconds (not to mention his ult will apply it immediately, last ~2 seconds, so you'll apply it immediately upon ending your ult when you Q auto to follow up.)
Obviously WW cares more about tanking up first before the triforce, and he's a pretty mediocre splitpusher - but he's actually faster than Shen. You could go sunfire instead of FH if you need to split faster, but you'd probably have been better off picking something like Nasus if you knew at champion select you wanted to be playing a mega tanky, mega sustainy splitpusher who makes carry's lives miserable.
Going to have to say triforce is almost definitely better than BORK for most circumstances. When you have one of the highest base AD in the game, a short cooldown nuke you want to spam, sick sustain without a lifesteal item... the buildup to triforce is just way better for you. Even just a sheen or just a phage is pretty wonderful. Cutlass is kinda meh on him comparitively - you shouldn't be needing that much sustain in lane, and a health buffer can be nice so you don't get burst down before your oppressive in-fight sustain kicks in with your second and third round of Qs.
Triforce adds 500 damage to ult-Q-auto as well, but it makes non-ult bursts FAR scarier than BORK does.
I find if you don't build Sunfire as 1st/2nd item on WW, you simply won't get any farm after that because it takes eons for you to clear waves. With Sunfire you can get farm and be present for teamfights, I don't think any item can compete.
I like to go hybrid ap with warwick, and play him somewhat as an assassin, since you can blow up carries very easily like this. His lane presence with a hextech revolver and one or two doran's rings is incredible because you can chunk people early game so easily while your sustain is just ridiculous. I usually go: Doran's ring 2x pot -> hextech -> lich bane, nashor's, gunblade, guinsoo's rageblade (item priorization depending on what enemy you face) and a defensive item (or some more ap haha) The attack speed skill has great synergy with rageblade and nashor's and the gunblade is just to chase people down. I know it's not a tanky build, but it gets the job done most of the time. He also has incredible pushing power with his w so he becomes a viable splitpusher aswell, and not too many who can 1v1 a ww when he's on your back.
On September 27 2013 01:08 Uldridge wrote: I like to go hybrid ap with warwick, and play him somewhat as an assassin, since you can blow up carries very easily like this. His lane presence with a hextech revolver and one or two doran's rings is incredible because you can chunk people early game so easily while your sustain is just ridiculous. I usually go: Doran's ring 2x pot -> hextech -> lich bane, nashor's, gunblade, guinsoo's rageblade (item priorization depending on what enemy you face) and a defensive item (or some more ap haha) The attack speed skill has great synergy with rageblade and nashor's and the gunblade is just to chase people down. I know it's not a tanky build, but it gets the job done most of the time. He also has incredible pushing power with his w so he becomes a viable splitpusher aswell, and not too many who can 1v1 a ww when he's on your back.
Magewick gets a ton of benefit from DFG. DFG-Q-LBAuto-Ult-Q-LBAuto is pretty hilarious damage.
I wouldn't bother with Nashors or Rageblade. Magewick is too squishy for autos to be heavily relied on outside of Q-LB procs. Visage is still core on him. You need more than 30% cdr to get a second Q-Auto off during your DFG combo though.
On September 27 2013 01:08 Uldridge wrote: I like to go hybrid ap with warwick, and play him somewhat as an assassin, since you can blow up carries very easily like this. His lane presence with a hextech revolver and one or two doran's rings is incredible because you can chunk people early game so easily while your sustain is just ridiculous. I usually go: Doran's ring 2x pot -> hextech -> lich bane, nashor's, gunblade, guinsoo's rageblade (item priorization depending on what enemy you face) and a defensive item (or some more ap haha) The attack speed skill has great synergy with rageblade and nashor's and the gunblade is just to chase people down. I know it's not a tanky build, but it gets the job done most of the time. He also has incredible pushing power with his w so he becomes a viable splitpusher aswell, and not too many who can 1v1 a ww when he's on your back.
I think I'm going to try this. I don't agree with getting revolver so early. I'd get some mana first or mana regen and then build towards Nashors before getting any AP. I don't think Warwick gets enough from AP until he gets a nashors and his ult.
Gunblade is a very sexy item considering the spell vamp and lifesteal. Rageblade might be pretty good too if you use your ult after taking enough damage to proc the rageblade passive. Hey you even get to build up to 5 stacks on rageblade on your ult too right? And DFG would definitely be good. Nashors has to be the core of the build though.
I'm not sure if AP jungle WW would be as good as lane WW since burst champions rely on items and levels to be able to burst people down, but if you get the spectral wraith item and rageblade (maybe even some spell vamp from runes) even your smites will heal for a ton.
edit: tried some WW today. Failed once as AP WW. I have like a 2.0 Ratio of damage with ult and nashors D: But game was over due to bad decisions before I got them. Gunblade's spell vamp and lifesteal both proc on your ult. Along with Fiora's those are the only two spells that do that. And while a 2.0 ratio may not seem like much, all it has to do is allow you to gib a squishy with Q, ult, and Q assuming you have enough CDR.
so guys warwick is a pretty good jungler now (<-- diamond 1).
First things first i picked up warwick in early season 3 because he has the kind of style i liked, my main was fiddlestick and so a jungler who had incredible sustain and was farming till 6 was my style. I had not very good sucess with him at first, trying a lot of builds, and the thing that was frustrating was that if i was getting the kills while ganking it would really not be good for every one, i could not often translate those kills into advantage mid to late game and would fall off really in the late game.
Now in pre season 4, they are some buffs to him. The jungle item and the gold flow permit him to have items and ti feels great. a farm warwick is scary in this tanky meta, he is like a pseudo mundo. Get the kills and carry alone
So before in early s3 i tried him offensive/defensive and utility and it was better to go utility (0/9/21), u would get a huge boost of ure movement speed (+3% remember) and a lot of goodies along the way, this way with a start with boot u could gank pre6 with 450 ms. Now in pre season 4 i tried also defensive/offensive/utility and there is not enough goodies/ms/bonusxp in the utility tree to go this way, u should really go 21/0/9 or 21/9/0. so its health/armor vs minor ms/reduce summoner cd/buff duration increase. its really a toss up, i prefer the tankyness generally so i go 21/9/0
Then in starting items u should go machete + pink+ green ward+ yellow trinket. You are not going to gank before 6 like 90% of the time, your goal should be to ward at 1.10 your top lane, run south ward the the brush alone in the river with the pink and run to your blue or your red and then just farm and watch ure minimap and ping the crap out of your team. You cant gank pre 6 but you can prevent gank with vision control At 6 normally with vision control nobody is killed because of the jungler and u start to really shine. Warwick has one of the better ultimate of the game, long suppression who instantly flash into your opponent and extremely low cd. take your blue at 7:10 and gank. Then take your red and gank again, then farm wraith then gank. It should be your style. Gank successfully top ? farm golem then gank him 40 sec after when he comes back to lane.
BO : ancient golem -> mobi boots (crucial) --> sunfire --> Spirit visage --> 1 damage item (wits end normally) if u have a tank/ Frozen heart/randuin/banshee if you are the only tank --> guardian angel.
wants a new jungler to add in your repertoire ? Give him a go
On December 31 2013 21:47 RouaF wrote: So you prefer the offensive tree not the def one ? What about runes ?
Yeah offensive tree, there is not much after 9 point in the defensive tree that i want to take. You don't need extra armor and magic resist to jungle (u will always be full hp) perseverance is meh too, your sustain is already incredible Legendary guardian and tenacious are good and would be why you choose the defensive tree.
In the offensive tree everything is good and will definitely help the clears of your jungle
Runes are standard for a lot of junglers.
Attack speed red, very good with your passive, more attacks more regen Armor yellow, normal too but you could experiment with other things, maybe he doesnt need it for jungling. But i'm a bit scared if i go to gank someone with 0 armor. Magic resist per lvl blue, you will have more armor items than mr so it's normal. But u could take cdr Movement speed Quint. Essential if u are not in the utility tree
I'll give it a try I really like ww. The warding tip seems to be the key to pull it off. I guess you also need charisma to convince your allies that it is not lost if they get gankd pre-6 :-) im sure a lot of people will rage at you for picking "useless ww can't gank"
yeah the warding thing is key. Before i used to start machete + 2 green but a pink is so good in the right bush, In diamond 1 it easily stay up 15 minutes
On January 02 2014 03:19 krndandaman wrote: hm so i tried jungle ww and it was pretty good. the only issues i had with it were mana issues and lack of ganking potential pre 6. luckily, my mid was Katarina so I had every blue, but I could definitely see issues without it. I also felt kinda helpless early on since my lanes had minimal cc and ww isn't exactly the best ganker. If things go wrong early it'll be tough for ww to do anything about it.
however post 6 ww is extremely strong and ult cd is ridiculously low. late game my tankwick was unstoppable just sustaining through teamfights all day. question about masteries: did you go double-edged sword? I didn't take it because I was going a tank build but with 21/9 offensive I feel like it'd be natural to take it. opinions?
Every back you should buy one mana pot don't forget, but you are going to sometimes do a bit of mana management, just don't use Q for a bit when u are jungling, your attak speed buff should be enough.
Don't go ganking pre 6 90% of the time (at least with offensive tree warwick), you are going to loose xp and be behind in the jungle. But what you can do is with the vision your early wards give you, you could countergank. Like top is winning hard but is pushing at his tower, You see the jungler come top after his 2 buff, and so you countergank/bait him.
Yes i take it, i feel you need the right amount of damage to be a treat because your not going to build offensive items for a long time. And it speed up your jungling without repercussion, always full hp
On January 02 2014 05:59 Misder wrote: Where are you pinking exactly, trollbone?
The small brush closest to baron.
Yes. Number 1 spot to drop a pink ward. If you are jungling with any jungler you should drop a pink here or the same spot but on the dragon side. The adavantage of baron side is that nobody checks it, at dragon if you fight for this objective you are going to find it very early
LOL 36 minutes pink ward, well normally it last a bit less. But yeah that's what you have to do to make ww viable, especially against a shaco who needs those first kills
i'm glad you are having sucess with him. When i picked i had like 25% winrate with him then i toyed with everything and i think in the past 30 games i have a 80% winrate
Damn you carried hard, 34 kills/assist and only 2 death
I think i would have taken a guardian angel instead of thornmail but heh u didn't died a lot anyway And damnit guys UPGRADE YOUR TRINKETS ! say that for everyone (even for myself )
Speaking from my personal experience I haven't been able to make ww top work on a consistent basis.
Yes here and there you have a game against a full ad opponent where you farm decently, get glacial shroud and you just Q, Q, Q, Q then finish for the win but most of time you will get pushed under turret, go oom, miss cs (unless you have ad runes which aren't the perfect choice on ww) and maybe even get dove.
WW also pushes way too slow, if your opponent shoves the lane and roams there's absolutely nothing you can do about it, it will take you 15minutes to take the tower, he's also very vulnerable to ganks since he has 0 escape, goes oom too fast in a meta where other top lanes can stay in the lane an infinite amount of times because they are all tanky sustain manaless champs.
So yeah sometimes it works and it's incredibly fun but most of the times his many weaknesses will be abused and you will be a very sad wolf. Obviously there's no doubt that his mid/late game is awesome but the laning is soooo painful....
If you want to try it out I recommend running the defensive tree, hybrid pen reds, armor yellows, mr or cdr blues, movespeed or ad quints all depending on who you're laning against.
i remember before when ww top was a thing, people would get chalice on him vs ap, maybe athene would be a decent buy on him now. Maybe tiamat yeah but if u go that way you will have no mana pool/mana regen so maybe max W ?
just some food for though, i tried to search on mobafire/solomid/lolking some decent guides to ww but there is nothing out there. Then i tried youtube for some commentaries and there is not much. This is a video commentary made by stonewall and i want everybody to see it to look at the things that YOU SHOULD NOT make
first off utility warwick, not a good choice, the biscuits that he has are useless, and what are you going to do with your ms against a renekton and a zigg ?? Second flash vs ghost on warwick, if warwick had no ultimate it would be easy ghost, consider him like nasus but the problem is that flash ultimate is way too good, u already have a semi ghost when a target is low, flash is better. (ghost is better pre-6, but you don't careeeeeeeeeeeeeee about ganking pre-6) Third, if you go utility after your first buff go straight to the second one, your smite will be up, don't waste time and maximize your smite cd Fourth, look at his ganks pre 6, DON'T DO THAT. You should have already pictured the ganks scenario and that there was no way in hell you could gank renekton especially with a no damage utility warwick. fifth, if you are utility tree you could maybe do some counter jungling but i would advise you not to, only if you know where the other jungler is.
Now look at his position at 8 minutes He is not lvl 6 He has 22 cs compared to kaziks 25 + 2 kills he wasted 175 gold on useless biscuits The utility tree gave him NOTHING/complete waste The counter jungling set him more behind than his opponent, the fail ganking attempt set him behind
It's extremely bad, u should be lvl 6 at 7:15 after your second first buff, don't waste time !
After this very bad early game, he abuse the strength of warwick his ultimate even though it doesn't deal a lot of damage with his utility tree, his opponents are bad that's all. Just also something if you are not utility warwick you need those mobility boots early, after the ancient golem or even before. If u go utility you don't need to do that and go straight to your sunfire.
At least, warwick is very good at securing objectives because of his sustain and his attack speed buff. you can do if u have the opportunity a lvl 5 dragon with one other member
If you had to remember one thing from this video it's the use of his ultimate that's all, a pretty bad showcase of early game warwick, his biggest weakness
I rarely get the FH. I tend to go SF then SV, then one offensive items and then after that maybe I would but game is hopefully done. I guess I could go 9 in utility, I don't know if that offers alot. Attack speed is also pretty good on ww.
I feel that because of the gold increase in s4 SUPPORT ww is now legit. He has some weakness that bascilly means he can't be a top tier support and not worth play versus the top players, but like in 99.9% of the game he can be used to great effect!. You play him basiclly as top/jungle ww but from the suppport position, and he has great tools to aid your team from here!.
Cons: Bad BAD lane, they will try to harras, they will try to zone, just need to wether the storm with careful positioning and good warding, it's very possible unless the enemy can perfect play against you, which isnt easy.
Warding: he cant get as "classic" support becuase he needs to rush items.
Peel: can only use ultimate+botrk active, granted combined with the as buff for the adc its not bad, but it's the only peel
Pros:
Ultimate: Has so many uses that benefit your team!. Initiate[either primary or secondary], catch tower divers or players who misstep thier position[either into tower range or in the open], in ganks, in 2v2, for peels...it has great uses for support, does pretty good damage with items and has short cooldown.
Ganks: Once you are level 6 it's hunting season, fast ganks mid for ulti+ignite+free mid skillshots or ganks at your own lane with jungle help. Big damage and hard to escpe from, can gank better than most[all?] other supports because of the e speed.
Vision: If the enemey is less than 50% hp they are in a problem, they cant hide, they cant run if you want to chase, they cant surprise your from brushes...it's a great benefit.
Team AS buff: 40% is almost what nunu gives ..but for the entire team, good in the bruzer meta. Helps getting buffs and towers very fast.
Hard to kill, damage, unignorable: the traits of lane/jungle ww,. With s4 gold changes you get the same items you could on other lanes, so its the same effect.
I suggest you try it for yourself and have fun with it, won't really help you get into the lcs, but it's not a joke and i feel it's legit.
If you have any questions i'm on #r/leagueoflegends on quakenet. Happy hunting.
On January 06 2014 06:17 JimmiC wrote: So when I top lane ww I been running 4-21-5, what do you think about that jungle?
no, i dont know why u have 5 points in utility, u should go 6-21-3 if you really want the movespeed top.
But if u consider warwick like a passive lane top, (i think he is more like a mundo/nasus), you should grab like 4-26-0. If i had to play ww, thats how i would do it (like my nasus)
In the jungle you don't need all the regen/armor stuff to do your job but if u really want a more tanky wick go 9-21-0 or 6-21-3
Support WW is terrible and top ww just gets totally dunked by every current good top champ in the meta
Jungle WW is okay, questionably? I've seen a lot more this season than in 2 or 3 but he's nowhere near as good as he was back in the day when like blue buff would outright kill most champs that tried to 1v1 it at level 1.
The cons listed in the support ww post pretty much validate picking anything as support and sharing creeps with the adc, the build/playstyle described adds that little in the way of support.
On January 06 2014 06:17 JimmiC wrote: So when I top lane ww I been running 4-21-5, what do you think about that jungle?
no, i dont know why u have 5 points in utility, u should go 6-21-3 if you really want the movespeed top.
But if u consider warwick like a passive lane top, (i think he is more like a mundo/nasus), you should grab like 4-26-0. If i had to play ww, thats how i would do it (like my nasus)
In the jungle you don't need all the regen/armor stuff to do your job but if u really want a more tanky wick go 9-21-0 or 6-21-3
wouldn't you rather go 3 points into mana regen instead of 1.5% ms? your E is plenty movespeed anyways and the regen helps alot with mana issues in lane.
On January 10 2014 02:57 Slusher wrote: The cons listed in the support ww post pretty much validate picking anything as support and sharing creeps with the adc, the build/playstyle described adds that little in the way of support.
Well first off, you dont share creeps or anything.
The thing is, it's not a "typical" spport, you just happen to play from the lane that the adc is. The reason this is legit and other troll picks are not, are the actual benefits as i said, HUGE as buff for team, great ganks, good vision when less than 50%, good single target peel/initiate. Again against the top of the top this probley won't work as it's hard to play versus perfect zone, but how many players can do that?, 5000 out of 32 million or so?.
On January 10 2014 02:57 Slusher wrote: The cons listed in the support ww post pretty much validate picking anything as support and sharing creeps with the adc, the build/playstyle described adds that little in the way of support.
Well first off, you dont share creeps or anything.
The thing is, it's not a "typical" spport, you just happen to play from the lane that the adc is. The reason this is legit and other troll picks are not, are the actual benefits as i said, HUGE as buff for team, great ganks, good vision when less than 50%, good single target peel/initiate. Again against the top of the top this probley won't work as it's hard to play versus perfect zone, but how many players can do that?, 5000 out of 32 million or so?.
You don't put a support in bot lane to get carried into the mid to late game by the ADC. You put an ADC in bot lane to get carried into the mid to late game by the support.
If you want to run something that doesn't lane well early or needs some help getting into the mid or late game, you throw it into the jungle.
to be in the top half (top ~55 for those of you scoring at home) of the cast at supporting you must be able to make space for your adc with a sightstone or less.
As i said, s4 opens up alot more options for support because of the gold flow. I'd go and say that i feel warwick support is amazing pick to carry silver-plat games. He is imo at least lux-nida level support and this means while he is legit he's better of NOT used in top level game, but you can dominate almost everyone with it.
Sure it puts your adc in pretty bad spot to start, but with careful play it's very easy to make it out even and dominate from then
On January 13 2014 18:24 Sarah Bryant wrote: As i said, s4 opens up alot more options for support because of the gold flow. I'd go and say that i feel warwick support is amazing pick to carry silver-plat games. He is imo at least lux-nida level support and this means while he is legit he's better of NOT used in top level game, but you can dominate almost everyone with it.
Sure it puts your adc in pretty bad spot to start, but with careful play it's very easy to make it out even and dominate from then
if his q was spammable he would be ok as counter engage in bot lane like nunu with like a caitlyn, but if they got a poke bot lane like sona ez you are just going to get wrecked and you wont be able to have that gold flow to do plays in the mid game
On January 13 2014 18:24 Sarah Bryant wrote: As i said, s4 opens up alot more options for support because of the gold flow. I'd go and say that i feel warwick support is amazing pick to carry silver-plat games. He is imo at least lux-nida level support and this means while he is legit he's better of NOT used in top level game, but you can dominate almost everyone with it.
Sure it puts your adc in pretty bad spot to start, but with careful play it's very easy to make it out even and dominate from then
Out of curiosity what rating are you because I'm plat 3 playing a "don't decay" game every month and this shit wouldn't work anywhere in even gold
I tried that tank WW build, it was tasty. Went something like SotAG -> SV -> Sunfire -> Bork. Flash ult so good, oh my. I couldn't hurt tanks (before Bork), but I tore through squishies quite fast and tanked for days.
On January 07 2014 20:55 Sarah Bryant wrote: Hello!, i'm new here.
I feel that because of the gold increase in s4 SUPPORT ww is now legit. He has some weakness that bascilly means he can't be a top tier support and not worth play versus the top players, but like in 99.9% of the game he can be used to great effect!. You play him basiclly as top/jungle ww but from the suppport position, and he has great tools to aid your team from here!.
Cons: Bad BAD lane, they will try to harras, they will try to zone, just need to wether the storm with careful positioning and good warding, it's very possible unless the enemy can perfect play against you, which isnt easy.
Warding: he cant get as "classic" support becuase he needs to rush items.
Peel: can only use ultimate+botrk active, granted combined with the as buff for the adc its not bad, but it's the only peel
Pros:
Ultimate: Has so many uses that benefit your team!. Initiate[either primary or secondary], catch tower divers or players who misstep thier position[either into tower range or in the open], in ganks, in 2v2, for peels...it has great uses for support, does pretty good damage with items and has short cooldown.
Ganks: Once you are level 6 it's hunting season, fast ganks mid for ulti+ignite+free mid skillshots or ganks at your own lane with jungle help. Big damage and hard to escpe from, can gank better than most[all?] other supports because of the e speed.
Vision: If the enemey is less than 50% hp they are in a problem, they cant hide, they cant run if you want to chase, they cant surprise your from brushes...it's a great benefit.
Team AS buff: 40% is almost what nunu gives ..but for the entire team, good in the bruzer meta. Helps getting buffs and towers very fast.
Hard to kill, damage, unignorable: the traits of lane/jungle ww,. With s4 gold changes you get the same items you could on other lanes, so its the same effect.
I suggest you try it for yourself and have fun with it, won't really help you get into the lcs, but it's not a joke and i feel it's legit.
If you have any questions i'm on #r/leagueoflegends on quakenet. Happy hunting.
Support WW is only legit for you, because you're playing against extreme retards and you could be picking ad carry heimerdinger and still win i bet. Outside of his AS buff and ultimate he does NOTHING to help your team. Compare him to someone like Annie, Thresh, Sona, Leona, Blitzcrank, hell i could keep on going, and you will see that he is very lackluster in terms of quality attributes for a support. I suggest that if you feel Warwick being a strong pick right now, play him in the jungle or play him in advantageous top lane match-ups. He will sadly never work as a legit support given how popular AP-oriented supports are right now, and since you're insanely weak pre-6 you will get bullied out of lane against any competent bot-lane. Sorry bro.
On January 14 2014 16:03 krndandaman wrote: Playing jungle ww can be really really sad sometimes though. The lack of any jungle pressure pre 6 and having pretty weak clears is annoying the say the least. If anything happens pre 6 you pretty much can't do anything to stop it and I've had ignorant people just ragequit when they see me farm to 6. For the first 7-8 minutes or so you are helpless. However if you make it to 6 without your team feeding you're good to go.
And that is why you warn your team that you will be farming and that they should play carefully early levels. Since this is clearly not enough you should ward for your team between your camp cleaning. The pink trick works well, just add to that buying a ward every back (first back should be spirit stone, boots, 1 ward, 1 mana pot) and you're good.
Real problems come when people start losing their lane hard 1v1, you can't do anything to put them back on track before 6, but hey what can you do if they get demolished 1v1 anyway ? If the opposite jungler is smart he can also force a lot of ganks bot and since supports don't buy wards any more early game (or max 1) it can be a problem.
It's pretty clear the pick isn't 100% optimal otherwise we would see it at lcs/ogn level but hey if it's good enough to carry in diamond 1 I'm sure it can work for all of you !
with the second game with warwick played by Gambit and sucessfully i think he will be picked commonly this season at least by gambit.
Love Darien !
edit : post game interview with alex ich : he said that warwick is really strong in this meta, and that he played him and won solo queue a lot with him so he asked darien to pick up this champion.
On January 15 2014 13:19 Terranasaur wrote: what are you guys building on WW out of the jungle these days?
90% of the games madreds, boots of mobility, wits end, frozen mallete, thornmail / frozen heart/ randuins, visage -> sell madreds get botrk.
in that order.
Enjoy getting blown up if you start madred/mobi/wits end lol. You really need some more tankyness, I don't really see the point of not getting ancient golem.
warwick is really good if your opponent doesnt intend to roam a lot and if you can make it a 1v1, maybe 2v1 with jungler ganks after 6. Warwicks pushing power is just....terrible. And with the new changes taking towers will be even harder i think
WW is pretty good at actually TAKING the tower once he gets his paws on it - giving yourself+jungler a pretty sizable AS boost is pretty good at that. It's no Rango but it'll do. The issue is getting the lane to that point in the first place - he's hurt less by the tower armor buffs than most because it means his own tower will get chipped away more slowly and he won't just lose it.
If it means anything, Durr believes that WW support can be played until a high plat level, according to him. So I wouldn't disregard Sarah's point completely on the basis that she's too big of a noob. And not just like a useless support that a high diamond/challenger player could make useful enough to carry lower level games, an actual presence in most phases of the game.
On January 17 2014 13:19 Zdrastochye wrote: If it means anything, Durr believes that WW support can be played until a high plat level, according to him. So I wouldn't disregard Sarah's point completely on the basis that she's too big of a noob. And not just like a useless support that a high diamond/challenger player could make useful enough to carry lower level games, an actual presence in most phases of the game.
The positive side of unconventional picks is that you will often surprise your opponent by going with that given pick from the start. But that's really all there is to it.
On January 15 2014 13:19 Terranasaur wrote: what are you guys building on WW out of the jungle these days?
90% of the games madreds, boots of mobility, wits end, frozen mallete, thornmail / frozen heart/ randuins, visage -> sell madreds get botrk.
in that order.
Enjoy getting blown up if you start madred/mobi/wits end lol. You really need some more tankyness, I don't really see the point of not getting ancient golem.
On January 15 2014 13:19 Terranasaur wrote: what are you guys building on WW out of the jungle these days?
90% of the games madreds, boots of mobility, wits end, frozen mallete, thornmail / frozen heart/ randuins, visage -> sell madreds get botrk.
in that order.
Enjoy getting blown up if you start madred/mobi/wits end lol. You really need some more tankyness, I don't really see the point of not getting ancient golem.
wolf carried me from silver 5 to plat 2, I think I know what I'm building.
I could be plat 2 playing teemo top going iedge phantom dancer every game, does it means it's good ? No. Madred mobi wit's end is a lot of gold before any tank stats, you will have great 1v2 ult ganks but in 2v2's or teamfights there is just no way you won't get blown up.
On January 15 2014 13:19 Terranasaur wrote: what are you guys building on WW out of the jungle these days?
90% of the games madreds, boots of mobility, wits end, frozen mallete, thornmail / frozen heart/ randuins, visage -> sell madreds get botrk.
in that order.
Enjoy getting blown up if you start madred/mobi/wits end lol. You really need some more tankyness, I don't really see the point of not getting ancient golem.
wolf carried me from silver 5 to plat 2, I think I know what I'm building.
just because you're good at a champion doesn't make your build the optimal build. I actually think madred/mobi/wits end isn't bad if you're ahead but if you aren't, going tanky is the safer route imo. Also not a fan of frozen mallet. The build path is bad and doesn't give the greatest stats on warwick. If you need slows I would rather go for IBG.
Yeah I totally disagree with you. FM over IBG hard. So just because what he's building works for him, it's not the optimal build because you are the optimal build master? Please.
On January 18 2014 22:13 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: FWIW I think Mallet's better on WW than IBG by a lot. That thornmail should be Frozen Heart (or Randuins) every time though.
Like I said it depends.
Thornmail on WW vs opponents with heavy lifesteal or vs opponents that have pretty high damage but not arpen yet is pretty strong. Vs autoattackers with not much lifesteal randuin or frozen heart is the way to go.
Also madreds gives +20 armor + lifesteal on each hit on neutrals giving you incredible sustain during jungle and good armor during ganks.
As WW has built in lifesteal /hit + lifesteal on Q armor gives more value and effective hp than hp5/ hp up to a point.Thats why you get madreds instead of golem.
You can do a value/cost analysis of Effective HP and add the average lifesteal you get in a battle as hp to see that for yourself.
Also FM guarantess that once you autoattack an opponent there is almost no chance for him to escape. + gives dmg for the ulty & AA + alot of hp.
On January 15 2014 13:19 Terranasaur wrote: what are you guys building on WW out of the jungle these days?
90% of the games madreds, boots of mobility, wits end, frozen mallete, thornmail / frozen heart/ randuins, visage -> sell madreds get botrk.
in that order.
Enjoy getting blown up if you start madred/mobi/wits end lol. You really need some more tankyness, I don't really see the point of not getting ancient golem.
wolf carried me from silver 5 to plat 2, I think I know what I'm building.
I could be plat 2 playing teemo top going iedge phantom dancer every game, does it means it's good ? No. Madred mobi wit's end is a lot of gold before any tank stats, you will have great 1v2 ult ganks but in 2v2's or teamfights there is just no way you won't get blown up.
Are you plat2 going teemo with PD + IE?
If something works CONSISTENLY there must be a reason why it works.
Im trying to offer some insight on this thread, yet people attack saying why it should not work.
Well the thing is it works.
Only downside to the wolf is his early game. If your teammates are very weak and feed more than 0-5 at the first 6 minutes it might be GG. Else he can carry by himself.
I agree 100% with Alex. Junglers sholdn't worry too much about stat efficiency "being ahead"/"being behind" doesn't have the same build impacts on junglers as on laners. A top lane bruiser is gonna shift tank items to the early game when he is behind or under heavy pressure but a jungler doesn't need to trade all the time and if he is playing well then he is outnumbering people anyways. Having ++ damage, mobility and being a bigger dragon/buffsteal threat can help you much more than being tanky but slow and not dealing damage.
also WW has a very high synergy with this build: his passive and W both scale extremely well with mandred + wits. just having flat reduction stats is very strong on a high regen tank and mobilityboots scale extremly well with E.
On January 15 2014 13:19 Terranasaur wrote: what are you guys building on WW out of the jungle these days?
90% of the games madreds, boots of mobility, wits end, frozen mallete, thornmail / frozen heart/ randuins, visage -> sell madreds get botrk.
in that order.
Enjoy getting blown up if you start madred/mobi/wits end lol. You really need some more tankyness, I don't really see the point of not getting ancient golem.
wolf carried me from silver 5 to plat 2, I think I know what I'm building.
I could be plat 2 playing teemo top going iedge phantom dancer every game, does it means it's good ? No. Madred mobi wit's end is a lot of gold before any tank stats, you will have great 1v2 ult ganks but in 2v2's or teamfights there is just no way you won't get blown up.
Are you plat2 going teemo with PD + IE?
If something works CONSISTENLY there must be a reason why it works.
Im trying to offer some insight on this thread, yet people attack saying why it should not work.
Well the thing is it works.
Only downside to the wolf is his early game. If your teammates are very weak and feed more than 0-5 at the first 6 minutes it might be GG. Else he can carry by himself.
I mean I don't think your argument is flawed really but RouaF isn't plat 2, he's diamond 1...
Yes, but when something works at a lower level like plat 2 it clearly works for a reason, even if it's not optimal. Building 100% optimal in a higher level game is correct, but sometimes at lower levels you have to do things which take advantage of people not building or playing correctly. It's basic adaptation, and it's my opinion that when you play against bad players you should take advantage of these weaknesses.
I'm not saying his build is 100% optimal, but if it works at his level it's probably not horrendous.
Played Olaf vs ap WW, was horrible. I could do damage and force him to tower, even do a bit of dirty farming, but it just ended up with him facetanking the wave and it not mattering. Once he bought chalice I couldn't do ANY damage to him, even when I had botrk and Q spam, it was a bit ridiculous.
Right now do not build wriggles on any champion ever. It is severely outclassed by any of the spirit jungle items, especially with the recent 4.1 buffs to their sustain.
You want to play Warwick in the jungle? Read this great post: + Show Spoiler +
On December 31 2013 01:41 trollbone wrote: so guys warwick is a pretty good jungler now (<-- diamond 1).
First things first i picked up warwick in early season 3 because he has the kind of style i liked, my main was fiddlestick and so a jungler who had incredible sustain and was farming till 6 was my style. I had not very good sucess with him at first, trying a lot of builds, and the thing that was frustrating was that if i was getting the kills while ganking it would really not be good for every one, i could not often translate those kills into advantage mid to late game and would fall off really in the late game.
Now in pre season 4, they are some buffs to him. The jungle item and the gold flow permit him to have items and ti feels great. a farm warwick is scary in this tanky meta, he is like a pseudo mundo. Get the kills and carry alone
So before in early s3 i tried him offensive/defensive and utility and it was better to go utility (0/9/21), u would get a huge boost of ure movement speed (+3% remember) and a lot of goodies along the way, this way with a start with boot u could gank pre6 with 450 ms. Now in pre season 4 i tried also defensive/offensive/utility and there is not enough goodies/ms/bonusxp in the utility tree to go this way, u should really go 21/0/9 or 21/9/0. so its health/armor vs minor ms/reduce summoner cd/buff duration increase. its really a toss up, i prefer the tankyness generally so i go 21/9/0
Then in starting items u should go machete + pink+ green ward+ yellow trinket. You are not going to gank before 6 like 90% of the time, your goal should be to ward at 1.10 your top lane, run south ward the the brush alone in the river with the pink and run to your blue or your red and then just farm and watch ure minimap and ping the crap out of your team. You cant gank pre 6 but you can prevent gank with vision control At 6 normally with vision control nobody is killed because of the jungler and u start to really shine. Warwick has one of the better ultimate of the game, long suppression who instantly flash into your opponent and extremely low cd. take your blue at 7:10 and gank. Then take your red and gank again, then farm wraith then gank. It should be your style. Gank successfully top ? farm golem then gank him 40 sec after when he comes back to lane.
BO : ancient golem -> mobi boots (crucial) --> sunfire --> Spirit visage --> 1 damage item (wits end normally) if u have a tank/ Frozen heart/randuin/banshee if you are the only tank --> guardian angel.
wants a new jungler to add in your repertoire ? Give him a go
Helped me a lot. The mid gets a little mad when you take the second blue for yourself but he is satisfied if you feed him two kills in two minutes afterwards.
Just sucks they nerfed spirit visage. I used to go spirit visage + frozen heart and love max cdr on ww so much. Not sure really what to get for 40% now. Maybe I should revise my item set for him or get 5+5-10/10 from masteries/runes.
He's so sexy with the fire fang skin, if you p(l)ay a lot get it ;-)
The wards help a lot of keeping the team happy pre 6 but you are still going to get some ragers. That being said your level 6 gank should be a kill 95% of the time. When picking your target keep 2 things in mind, the squishyness of the target and the damage of your laner. So like if its a mundo vs nasus top I woudln't waste my first ult up there becuase there is a decent chance of escape ( unless they are low).
Also, is the person your getting a kill for going to snowball. Like if its a riven or leb or fizz or who ever where they can take total control and be a bully then go hard on who they are vs.
I would also say do your best to give the kill to the laner, essecpially if they are the assassin. It gives that lane some big advantages even when you are not there. I also find the more kills I give to laners the happier people are which tends to create less infighting which I think is a huge reason people lose. I don't even stress down 10 kills if the team isn't infighting because one turnaround can cause a blaimfest on the other side and then boom, you win
When are people going to remember why everyone stopped playing WW top in the first place? He has one of the worst autoattack animations in the game, he can't trade or he runs out of mana, can't support a gank pre-6, can't push or take towers if opponent just shoves him to turret and roams, and cant farm after lane so falls back behind even if he wins lane. Like wow, great, Darien did ok with him in a specific comp, while running TP, and zomg he has %health on Q! Mundo has ranged %Health on Q, which slows, and is manaless, meanwhile WWs costs him like 1/4 his mana pool. His ult and w are awesome but why not just run him from the jungle in that case?
I feel like I'm losing my mind, things have actually gotten worse for him since he was last heavily played: SV CDR got nerfed, theres no %mpen in offensive for 9 points, Shen (who WW was a counterpick to) is never seen anymore, and top is all fast pushers which just shove him into the turret over and over. Sure he is a "counterpick" to supertanks top, cept he will run out of mana vs them unless he buys a chalice or like 3+ mana pots each recall, and once they get MR they can just ignore him. He works well in specific comps since he is great at picks and chasing down ppl after fights, but i feel like I'm seeing him in every 3rd game at the moment.
The saddest part to me is when you reach that point like 20-25m into the game, when minions have gotten stronger, but everyone else has 1-2+ offensive items so they can clear waves or jungle camps in seconds, but WW is forced to slowly autoattack them one by one.
On January 24 2014 00:11 DrunkenOne wrote: When are people going to remember why everyone stopped playing WW top in the first place? He has one of the worst autoattack animations in the game, he can't trade or he runs out of mana, can't support a gank pre-6, can't push or take towers if opponent just shoves him to turret and roams, and cant farm after lane so falls back behind even if he wins lane. Like wow, great, Darien did ok with him in a specific comp, while running TP, and zomg he has %health on Q! Mundo has ranged %Health on Q, which slows, and is manaless, meanwhile WWs costs him like 1/4 his mana pool. His ult and w are awesome but why not just run him from the jungle in that case?
I feel like I'm losing my mind, things have actually gotten worse for him since he was last heavily played: SV CDR got nerfed, theres no %mpen in offensive for 9 points, Shen (who WW was a counterpick to) is never seen anymore, and top is all fast pushers which just shove him into the turret over and over. Sure he is a "counterpick" to supertanks top, cept he will run out of mana vs them unless he buys a chalice or like 3+ mana pots each recall, and once they get MR they can just ignore him. He works well in specific comps since he is great at picks and chasing down ppl after fights, but i feel like I'm seeing him in every 3rd game at the moment.
The saddest part to me is when you reach that point like 20-25m into the game, when minions have gotten stronger, but everyone else has 1-2+ offensive items so they can clear waves or jungle camps in seconds, but WW is forced to slowly autoattack them one by one.
Sad but true. I tried the wolf top again and it just doesn't work, maybe I'm doing it wrong but I don't see what you can do when your opponent just one shots the minion wave and roams and YOU have to sit 30seconds auto-ing it to clear it.
You can't take towers fast enough, you can't roam because you have to clear, you can't farm fast enough, the only solution I'd see is getting tiamat, I have not tried yet. Toplane lasts soooo long without backs right now with all the infinite manaless sustain tanks and ww just sits there oom after 3 minutes, your jungler can't even come for a gank because you have no mana, sure you can keep 100 for ult but the mundo/renekton is just going to ult and run away.
Also the fact that you are pretty much obliged to have ad runes/quints to last hit under tower limits your midgame power a lot, not having movement speed quints sucks.
After a huge loss streak with top wolf I went into the jungle again and carried.
The reason why people generally prefer top ww over jungle ww is because of how slowly he farms, there are a few jungler who could be classified as rush-6 (namely Hecarim, Skarner, to a lesser extent Amumu) who are way faster junglers, which is a very important attribute to a rush6 jungler. WW probably does provide the most teamfighting strength at like, level10+ or so, but that is pretty late into the game and the earlygame you give up can be too much.
On February 18 2014 02:48 Kingsky wrote: lanewick is INSANE you guys should try it. always heal never die
His mana problem is really problematic though. That's like his only problem. He is one mana cost reduction on Q away from being fotm.
I am not too sure what to do about his mana. Maybe starting Doran Ring and go for 5-22-3? Get Feast from Offensive tree and 3 points in mana regeneration from Utility. His Q is a really strong spell, but the 110 mana cost at rank 5 is absolutely retarded.
He can't push for shit!!! He will never properly be the king of top without pushing power, there are just too many pushers top for him to have a real chance imo. His only fallback mechanism for being a pretty awful laner ( with the common tops and pot stacking why should anyone give him extra ms) is his ult induced gank assist potential. His laning has even been hit with the couple of recent patches with SV nerf and more importantly to his laning phase the sunfire nerf, even if it wasn't too huge. Picking him just enables your opposing laner to do too much dmg elsewhere or just push you under the tower and wait for a teleport opportunity or a buff fight. He could in theory work with a premade team that has a fast clearing jungler, but why would you push that with the changes to jungle items.
On February 18 2014 02:48 Kingsky wrote: lanewick is INSANE you guys should try it. always heal never die
His mana problem is really problematic though. That's like his only problem. He is one mana cost reduction on Q away from being fotm.
I am not too sure what to do about his mana. Maybe starting Doran Ring and go for 5-22-3? Get Feast from Offensive tree and 3 points in mana regeneration from Utility. His Q is a really strong spell, but the 110 mana cost at rank 5 is absolutely retarded.
Didn't Darien build an early chalice on Lanewick in an LCS game? I can't recall which game, but it was against an AP top like Mundo so stats really weren't wasted. You would probably sit on it until late game and then sell/upgrade to Mikhaels maybe.
On February 18 2014 02:48 Kingsky wrote: lanewick is INSANE you guys should try it. always heal never die
His mana problem is really problematic though. That's like his only problem. He is one mana cost reduction on Q away from being fotm.
I am not too sure what to do about his mana. Maybe starting Doran Ring and go for 5-22-3? Get Feast from Offensive tree and 3 points in mana regeneration from Utility. His Q is a really strong spell, but the 110 mana cost at rank 5 is absolutely retarded.
His only problem? How about no pushing power, arguably the worst last hitting in the game due to a terrible animation, and no way to escape ganks except hoping someone gets low enough for his E to activate. His positives outweigh a lot of this, but saying that his only problem is mana is pretty disingenuous imo. WW gets absolutely shat on early on by pretty much every viable top except Mundo, since Mundo's early game is also terrible. Even if you play passive and survive early on, you likely are behind in CS due to getting pushed to tower and his terrible last hitting. Your opponent can go and buy and return to lane and not miss any CS since WW can't shove at all.And even if you somehow keep even with CS, by mid and late game you fall increasingly behind due to being unable to quickly kill a wave or blow up a jungle camp.
As far as start and masteries, I like going D-ring and 1/22/7. Feast barely gives back any mana at all to be worth dumping 5 points in offensive, and the health you regain is pointless thanks to all your free sustain. I like 7 in utility so you can get 3 points in summoner cdr, since WW has no escape, flash ult is so powerful, and ignite is an important part of his single target burst.
On February 19 2014 00:08 YouGotNothin wrote:
Didn't Darien build an early chalice on Lanewick in an LCS game? I can't recall which game, but it was against an AP top like Mundo so stats really weren't wasted. You would probably sit on it until late game and then sell/upgrade to Mikhaels maybe.
Early chalice helps somewhat with mana problems, but he can still run out spamming Q since its cost is so ridiculous. And even then, chalice gives you no defense against an AD top, and spending 880 gold on mana regen leaves you even farther away from his core items. Against AP its fine, but against AD its not the best buy imo. As long as you don't really try to trade with Q until you are level 5+, and make sure you have enough mana for a Q->ult->ignite->Q combo at 6, you should be ok.
warwicks last hitting animation really isnt that bad, his lack of escapes and pushing power are bad but it has the counterbalance of probably the best gank assist in the game after 6. you usually get some damage or sunfire to assist in pushing.
his mana is a problem because you can't spam q without glacial or chalice, but your passive and W allow to you lane passably without using it too much.
you shouldn't really start dorans ring, just start dorans blade or something. the mana regen from dorans ring probably isn't worth it but i can't confirm tit.
Why dorans blade? That should be the last thing to build, it might make your last hitting a bit easier but then you could just get a long sword and build towards smt. You won`t apply any real pressure with it either way. A dorans shield would work if you are getting harassed to hell by some unpopular pick like jayce.
but aginst most melees you will be autoing a lot both creeps and on him, and you have a hard time last hitting under tower so it helps with both of those
On February 18 2014 02:48 Kingsky wrote: lanewick is INSANE you guys should try it. always heal never die
His mana problem is really problematic though. That's like his only problem. He is one mana cost reduction on Q away from being fotm.
I am not too sure what to do about his mana. Maybe starting Doran Ring and go for 5-22-3? Get Feast from Offensive tree and 3 points in mana regeneration from Utility. His Q is a really strong spell, but the 110 mana cost at rank 5 is absolutely retarded.
His only problem? How about no pushing power, arguably the worst last hitting in the game due to a terrible animation, and no way to escape ganks except hoping someone gets low enough for his E to activate. His positives outweigh a lot of this, but saying that his only problem is mana is pretty disingenuous imo. WW gets absolutely shat on early on by pretty much every viable top except Mundo, since Mundo's early game is also terrible. Even if you play passive and survive early on, you likely are behind in CS due to getting pushed to tower and his terrible last hitting. Your opponent can go and buy and return to lane and not miss any CS since WW can't shove at all.And even if you somehow keep even with CS, by mid and late game you fall increasingly behind due to being unable to quickly kill a wave or blow up a jungle camp.
As far as start and masteries, I like going D-ring and 1/22/7. Feast barely gives back any mana at all to be worth dumping 5 points in offensive, and the health you regain is pointless thanks to all your free sustain. I like 7 in utility so you can get 3 points in summoner cdr, since WW has no escape, flash ult is so powerful, and ignite is an important part of his single target burst.
Didn't Darien build an early chalice on Lanewick in an LCS game? I can't recall which game, but it was against an AP top like Mundo so stats really weren't wasted. You would probably sit on it until late game and then sell/upgrade to Mikhaels maybe.
Early chalice helps somewhat with mana problems, but he can still run out spamming Q since its cost is so ridiculous. And even then, chalice gives you no defense against an AD top, and spending 880 gold on mana regen leaves you even farther away from his core items. Against AP its fine, but against AD its not the best buy imo. As long as you don't really try to trade with Q until you are level 5+, and make sure you have enough mana for a Q->ult->ignite->Q combo at 6, you should be ok.
I feel his lack of pushing power is not THAT bad. Note the emphasis.
I recognize that the lack of waveclear is a problem, but I argue that it's not as bad as, say, Trundle. Why?
1. His last hitting is decent. Even without AD runes his passive provides a little bit of damage to allow you to stay ahead of the curve.
2. You can't pressure WW at the tower or dive him post 6. As soon as you draw tower aggro he will press R and you are screwed. Very different from Trundle.
3. He has amazing roam himself and his R has relatively low cooldown, which counterbalances his lack of waveclear. Very different from Trundle again.
On February 18 2014 02:48 Kingsky wrote: lanewick is INSANE you guys should try it. always heal never die
His mana problem is really problematic though. That's like his only problem. He is one mana cost reduction on Q away from being fotm.
I am not too sure what to do about his mana. Maybe starting Doran Ring and go for 5-22-3? Get Feast from Offensive tree and 3 points in mana regeneration from Utility. His Q is a really strong spell, but the 110 mana cost at rank 5 is absolutely retarded.
His only problem? How about no pushing power, arguably the worst last hitting in the game due to a terrible animation, and no way to escape ganks except hoping someone gets low enough for his E to activate. His positives outweigh a lot of this, but saying that his only problem is mana is pretty disingenuous imo. WW gets absolutely shat on early on by pretty much every viable top except Mundo, since Mundo's early game is also terrible. Even if you play passive and survive early on, you likely are behind in CS due to getting pushed to tower and his terrible last hitting. Your opponent can go and buy and return to lane and not miss any CS since WW can't shove at all.And even if you somehow keep even with CS, by mid and late game you fall increasingly behind due to being unable to quickly kill a wave or blow up a jungle camp.
As far as start and masteries, I like going D-ring and 1/22/7. Feast barely gives back any mana at all to be worth dumping 5 points in offensive, and the health you regain is pointless thanks to all your free sustain. I like 7 in utility so you can get 3 points in summoner cdr, since WW has no escape, flash ult is so powerful, and ignite is an important part of his single target burst.
On February 19 2014 00:08 YouGotNothin wrote:
Didn't Darien build an early chalice on Lanewick in an LCS game? I can't recall which game, but it was against an AP top like Mundo so stats really weren't wasted. You would probably sit on it until late game and then sell/upgrade to Mikhaels maybe.
Early chalice helps somewhat with mana problems, but he can still run out spamming Q since its cost is so ridiculous. And even then, chalice gives you no defense against an AD top, and spending 880 gold on mana regen leaves you even farther away from his core items. Against AP its fine, but against AD its not the best buy imo. As long as you don't really try to trade with Q until you are level 5+, and make sure you have enough mana for a Q->ult->ignite->Q combo at 6, you should be ok.
I feel his lack of pushing power is not THAT bad. Note the emphasis.
I recognize that the lack of waveclear is a problem, but I argue that it's not as bad as, say, Trundle. Why?
1. His last hitting is decent. Even without AD runes his passive provides a little bit of damage to allow you to stay ahead of the curve.
2. You can't pressure WW at the tower or dive him post 6. As soon as you draw tower aggro he will press R and you are screwed. Very different from Trundle.
3. He has amazing roam himself and his R has relatively low cooldown, which counterbalances his lack of waveclear. Very different from Trundle again.
Yeah the problem being that if you want to roam you need to shove the lane first, ww has amazing roaming potential but can't shove so roaming is a huge gamble because if it doesn't work you will lose tons of cs/xp + your tower. Add to this the fact that Renekton is probably the most frustrating champ in the game to lane against (+is picked a lot and never banned) and you have a sad wolf again.
On February 18 2014 02:48 Kingsky wrote: lanewick is INSANE you guys should try it. always heal never die
His mana problem is really problematic though. That's like his only problem. He is one mana cost reduction on Q away from being fotm.
I am not too sure what to do about his mana. Maybe starting Doran Ring and go for 5-22-3? Get Feast from Offensive tree and 3 points in mana regeneration from Utility. His Q is a really strong spell, but the 110 mana cost at rank 5 is absolutely retarded.
His only problem? How about no pushing power, arguably the worst last hitting in the game due to a terrible animation, and no way to escape ganks except hoping someone gets low enough for his E to activate. His positives outweigh a lot of this, but saying that his only problem is mana is pretty disingenuous imo. WW gets absolutely shat on early on by pretty much every viable top except Mundo, since Mundo's early game is also terrible. Even if you play passive and survive early on, you likely are behind in CS due to getting pushed to tower and his terrible last hitting. Your opponent can go and buy and return to lane and not miss any CS since WW can't shove at all.And even if you somehow keep even with CS, by mid and late game you fall increasingly behind due to being unable to quickly kill a wave or blow up a jungle camp.
As far as start and masteries, I like going D-ring and 1/22/7. Feast barely gives back any mana at all to be worth dumping 5 points in offensive, and the health you regain is pointless thanks to all your free sustain. I like 7 in utility so you can get 3 points in summoner cdr, since WW has no escape, flash ult is so powerful, and ignite is an important part of his single target burst.
On February 19 2014 00:08 YouGotNothin wrote:
Didn't Darien build an early chalice on Lanewick in an LCS game? I can't recall which game, but it was against an AP top like Mundo so stats really weren't wasted. You would probably sit on it until late game and then sell/upgrade to Mikhaels maybe.
Early chalice helps somewhat with mana problems, but he can still run out spamming Q since its cost is so ridiculous. And even then, chalice gives you no defense against an AD top, and spending 880 gold on mana regen leaves you even farther away from his core items. Against AP its fine, but against AD its not the best buy imo. As long as you don't really try to trade with Q until you are level 5+, and make sure you have enough mana for a Q->ult->ignite->Q combo at 6, you should be ok.
I feel his lack of pushing power is not THAT bad. Note the emphasis.
I recognize that the lack of waveclear is a problem, but I argue that it's not as bad as, say, Trundle. Why?
1. His last hitting is decent. Even without AD runes his passive provides a little bit of damage to allow you to stay ahead of the curve.
2. You can't pressure WW at the tower or dive him post 6. As soon as you draw tower aggro he will press R and you are screwed. Very different from Trundle.
3. He has amazing roam himself and his R has relatively low cooldown, which counterbalances his lack of waveclear. Very different from Trundle again.
Yeah the problem being that if you want to roam you need to shove the lane first, ww has amazing roaming potential but can't shove so roaming is a huge gamble because if it doesn't work you will lose tons of cs/xp + your tower. Add to this the fact that Renekton is probably the most frustrating champ in the game to lane against (+is picked a lot and never banned) and you have a sad wolf again.
You don't really roam on WW until their tower is gone. But you can stay in lane way longer than most champs which gives you a bit of a lead. Also sunfire first helps this but I like rushing BORK if im doing good.
also his last hitting is fine, he is one of the few champs in the game that actually has an aa animation that takes a while to get used to. but once you're used to it hes fine at csing; he has pretty decent AA damage.
Using W is probably better for waveclear than Q lol.
EDIT: actually you can roam if you can push the other laner out of lane. i.e. if its not renek or they are bad.
I feel Warwick is very strong right now and he should be played more often as a jungler.
Runes: 9 AS red, 4 flat armor yellow, 5 scaling health yellow, 9 scaling MR blue, 3 MS quints or a mix of MS and AS quints.
Mastery: 2-25-3. Grab Double-edge swords and Butcher from offensive, 1.5% MS from utility, and dump the rest in defense in any way you like.
Item build:
Standard build: Wriggle -> BotRK -> Randuin's -> any two defensive items you want
More damage build: Wriggle -> BotRK -> Wit's End -> Randuin's -> any defensive items you want
Boots: Tabi and Merc are the obvious choices, but CDR boot isn't too bad either if you think you want to gank as much as possible.
Go for Damage?: If you go for Wit's End in conjunction with Feral Flare and BotRK, your ult will do a LOT of damage. And I mean a *LOT* of damage. When you use your ult, you hit your target 5 times and each time applies on-hit effect, so you do 5% current health damage per hit, plus +X magic damage from Feral Flare and Wit's End, plus your passive damage, and finally your Wit's End's MR shred which you can follow up with your Q. With 3 damage items, you can devastate a squishy with your R following by a Q and BotRK active - all by yourself. This can be very effective if your team somehow lacks damage (but does NOT lack in tankiness).
Is the wriggles needed to be rushed? Can't you go like madreds->cutlass->wriggles ? And what do you think of Cdr blues? The downside of going cutlass before wriggles is that you do not benefit from your increased ganking potential stack wise. But otherwise it feels good for dueling/ganking purposes. Especially with all the movement speed you can actually make ganks happen without your ult if necessary
On June 02 2014 19:56 Bam Lee wrote: Is the wriggles needed to be rushed? Can't you go like madreds->cutlass->wriggles ? And what do you think of Cdr blues? The downside of going cutlass before wriggles is that you do not benefit from your increased ganking potential stack wise. But otherwise it feels good for dueling/ganking purposes. Especially with all the movement speed you can actually make ganks happen without your ult if necessary
If you are going to get Wit's 3rd item and merc treads as your boots, then the CDR is probably a good choice. If you don't get Wit's, I'd keep mr runes. I always hate the influx of mr with no armor that building Wit's gives you.
I still play a lot of ww jungle in D1 (my most played champ this season) but I don't build feral flare any more. The timing just kicks in too late, warwick isn't a quick clearer. I still go for the "old" build of ancient golem, mobi boots, sunfire with good warding and mana pots it works very well.
I've tried pretty hard to make feral work in the current patch but failed, my winrate went down a lot despite being D2 at the time. But maybe it's just my playstyle !
Getting Wit's End will definitely make you squishy. It is the price to pay for going for more damage.
However, depends on your team, this may be effective because a fully channeled R on a squishy while you have Wit's End will hurt a lot. Not only do you get the 42 magic damage per hit, you also reduce your target's MR by 5 per hit to a max of 25. Then you follow up with a Q after your target has 25 less MR..... and congrats, you just removed 50%-75% of a squishy's health by yourself.
It is a risky build, but quite fun. Don't do it against Janna, by the way.
On June 03 2014 03:41 RouaF wrote: I still play a lot of ww jungle in D1 (my most played champ this season) but I don't build feral flare any more. The timing just kicks in too late, warwick isn't a quick clearer. I still go for the "old" build of ancient golem, mobi boots, sunfire with good warding and mana pots it works very well.
I've tried pretty hard to make feral work in the current patch but failed, my winrate went down a lot despite being D2 at the time. But maybe it's just my playstyle !
Doesnt your clear time feels a little bit lackluster without any damage item? Or do you just gank a lot? I really dont like feral flare but i thought atleast on warwick and yi it can have some use, although on warwick i feel like i dont get a whole lot of farming done after level 6 due to the gank.
On June 03 2014 03:41 RouaF wrote: I still play a lot of ww jungle in D1 (my most played champ this season) but I don't build feral flare any more. The timing just kicks in too late, warwick isn't a quick clearer. I still go for the "old" build of ancient golem, mobi boots, sunfire with good warding and mana pots it works very well.
I've tried pretty hard to make feral work in the current patch but failed, my winrate went down a lot despite being D2 at the time. But maybe it's just my playstyle !
Doesnt your clear time feels a little bit lackluster without any damage item? Or do you just gank a lot? I really dont like feral flare but i thought atleast on warwick and yi it can have some use, although on warwick i feel like i dont get a whole lot of farming done after level 6 due to the gank.
I gank every time my ult is up, it's pretty straightforward. Do I have ult ? If yes gank if not farm or recall if you need to buy. You don't need to clear very fast when you get bonus gold from conservation, just make sure to spend your stacks between ult ganks. Since ww is so binary it's just about finding the right place/right time to ult.
On June 03 2014 03:41 RouaF wrote: I still play a lot of ww jungle in D1 (my most played champ this season) but I don't build feral flare any more. The timing just kicks in too late, warwick isn't a quick clearer. I still go for the "old" build of ancient golem, mobi boots, sunfire with good warding and mana pots it works very well.
I've tried pretty hard to make feral work in the current patch but failed, my winrate went down a lot despite being D2 at the time. But maybe it's just my playstyle !
Doesnt your clear time feels a little bit lackluster without any damage item? Or do you just gank a lot? I really dont like feral flare but i thought atleast on warwick and yi it can have some use, although on warwick i feel like i dont get a whole lot of farming done after level 6 due to the gank.
I think Warwick is basically the saviour of Feral Flare. This items is so bad right now that the only champion you should build it on is Warwick.
No I do not think it's good on Yi. No, it's definitely not good on Nocturne.
On June 03 2014 03:41 RouaF wrote: I still play a lot of ww jungle in D1 (my most played champ this season) but I don't build feral flare any more. The timing just kicks in too late, warwick isn't a quick clearer. I still go for the "old" build of ancient golem, mobi boots, sunfire with good warding and mana pots it works very well.
I've tried pretty hard to make feral work in the current patch but failed, my winrate went down a lot despite being D2 at the time. But maybe it's just my playstyle !
Doesnt your clear time feels a little bit lackluster without any damage item? Or do you just gank a lot? I really dont like feral flare but i thought atleast on warwick and yi it can have some use, although on warwick i feel like i dont get a whole lot of farming done after level 6 due to the gank.
I think Warwick is basically the saviour of Feral Flare. This items is so bad right now that the only champion you should build it on is Warwick.
No I do not think it's good on Yi. No, it's definitely not good on Nocturne.
After testing it on yi some more i definitely agree. And yea its terrible on noc. The only reason i do lack it to some extent on warwick is that due to the change on wriggles you can get the stacks going pretty well. Warwick is able to gank pretty well by the time the wriggles is up. Also the nerf on the sustain doesnt bother him too much What is your take on tiamat for clearing/farming purposes? Overkill? Do you prefer not to take that much farm from lanes/invest so much time into farming in the jungle? Botrk does have the better dueling stats, but i was thinking about going spirit stone->Tiamat->Tank for a tanky warwick build. Feral flare is probably slightly better for farming only the jungle, but with the tiamat you can get lanes shoved out pretty fast. I have not tested it yet and in theory it doesnt sound very promising, just wanted to know if you had some experience with tiamat ww outside of the top lane.
Yeah don't go tiamat on warwick... you will clear faster but that's it. You need some tankyness, if you want some aoe clear get sunfire, it's great when chasing with E.
On June 03 2014 20:36 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: Are you guys crazy it's amazing on nocturne
Like seriously you just build madreds -> bork -> finish flare and then go full tank and you're unstoppable
It's like the build that got me through plat 1...
It is not worth it on Noc anymore.
In terms of power, you won't get too much more from FF while sacrificing your early game almost entirely. You no longer get scaling health steal and the damage got nerfed.
You also won't get much more gold with Wriggle than with Elder Lizard. In fact lizard will net you more gold and you can have a more balanced playstyle.
Furthermore, Wriggle has no CDR. You need some CDR on Noc, particularly post level 16 - because the 100 seconds cooldown on R is very awkward and you can't use R in two consecutive fights. Lizard provides 10% , which is crucial. Even before 16 CDR is still important because you are practically useless with a damage oriented build and R on cooldown.
Also, don't take my words for it. Ninjaken is a (iirc) challenger Nocturne player and he no longer builds Wriggle on him.
On June 03 2014 20:37 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: And wtf tiamat warwick is that a joke or is there some upside to it that i'm unaware of?
No need to be rude just wanted to have some discussion on it cause i have personally never tried it and was curious.
On the topic of feral flare: It just feels slow and no longer gets that ridiculous in the late game which is why it doesnt feel very rewarding to sacrifice your early game for it imo
On June 03 2014 20:36 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: Are you guys crazy it's amazing on nocturne
Like seriously you just build madreds -> bork -> finish flare and then go full tank and you're unstoppable
It's like the build that got me through plat 1...
It is not worth it on Noc anymore.
In terms of power, you won't get too much more from FF while sacrificing your early game almost entirely. You no longer get scaling health steal and the damage got nerfed.
You also won't get much more gold with Wriggle than with Elder Lizard. In fact lizard will net you more gold and you can have a more balanced playstyle.
Furthermore, Wriggle has no CDR. You need some CDR on Noc, particularly post level 16 - because the 100 seconds cooldown on R is very awkward and you can't use R in two consecutive fights. Lizard provides 10% , which is crucial. Even before 16 CDR is still important because you are practically useless with a damage oriented build and R on cooldown.
Also, don't take my words for it. Ninjaken is a (iirc) challenger Nocturne player and he no longer builds Wriggle on him.
Flare is still a monster amount of damage late game and you absolutely do not sacrifice your early game. How? What is it about the other items which make them so much stronger on Nocturne? Your early game is stronger with madreds -> botrk -> flare because you get an early cutlass, which provides a LOT of benefits, and you only really sacrifice what, a 30 extra true damage (that doesn't stack) proc? Are you having a hard time clearing camps with nocturne or something? Does that 30 extra damage compare with a cutlass proc/slow?
Also I used to duo with Ninjaken back when HoG was in the game, he and I both played Noc...
But my main point is that Nocturne maybe sacrifices a SMALL amount of early game pressure by going madred's into cutlass compared to going SotEL, but you sacrifice a HUGE amount of late game potential by not going Flare. Madred's -> BotRK -> Flare -> Full tank.
On June 03 2014 20:37 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: And wtf tiamat warwick is that a joke or is there some upside to it that i'm unaware of?
No need to be rude just wanted to have some discussion on it cause i have personally never tried it and was curious.
On the topic of feral flare: It just feels slow and no longer gets that ridiculous in the late game which is why it doesnt feel very rewarding to sacrifice your early game for it imo
I wasn't being rude, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt and asking if you were joking because that's obviously, obviously terrible
Eh Tiamat still has that AD scaling on WW ult and it does what Fiora's ult does: the whole 5 autos for 20-60% damage in an area. Why is Fiora with Tiamat so good if Warwick isn't?
Because Fiora is untargetable and uninterruptable and each of her ult hits splash AoE over multiple targets in a wide area as her primary source of damage while Tiamat/Hydra on Warwick only hits people in the radius of the single champion he targets while being interruptable and his job is to stick to a single target and chase down stragglers. It's basically the exact opposite. Splash adds damage to Fiora's ult on each target. Warwick's doesn't even affect his target outside of the AD.
On June 04 2014 20:10 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: Because Fiora is untargetable and uninterruptable and each of her ult hits splash AoE over multiple targets in a wide area as her primary source of damage while Tiamat/Hydra on Warwick only hits people in the radius of the single champion he targets while being interruptable and his job is to stick to a single target and chase down stragglers. It's basically the exact opposite. Splash adds damage to Fiora's ult on each target. Warwick's doesn't even affect his target outside of the AD.
yea ad items except for super efficient stuff like phage if you're going trinity or frozen mallet maybe or hexdrinker MAYBE lategame LW are going to be a bad idea. Wits end/BOTRK are better in general, the on hit damage should end up superior since only his ult really scales off AD and for the cost the wits end or botrk active+pasisve damage should outperform it, at least considering how much you auto for damage.
I dont like botrk on WW because it delays your tankyness. I've been going flare->wits->tank. Late game 6 items I'd sell wits for botrk. Wits is much cheaper, synergizes well, and gives a bit of tankyness
Flare fits his style so much better than a spirit item since you are basically farming to 6 anyways, and afterwards probably farming whenever your ult isn't up. After you get flare, every stack is another 5 damage on ult.
On June 05 2014 03:30 DrunkenOne wrote: I dont like botrk on WW because it delays your tankyness. I've been going flare->wits->tank. Late game 6 items I'd sell wits for botrk. Wits is much cheaper, synergizes well, and gives a bit of tankyness
Flare fits his style so much better than a spirit item since you are basically farming to 6 anyways, and afterwards probably farming whenever your ult isn't up. After you get flare, every stack is another 5 damage on ult.
You should have enough lifesteal and sustain to not really need super tanky items early game when you'd be fighting. by the time full 5v5s break out you should have 1 1/2 tank items finished so you dont just blow up instantly anyways
Basically depends on what the distribution of damage is on the other team
More AP threat, Wit's End and sometimes Merc/Visage/Banshee's. More physical threat, BotRK Tabi/Randuin's/Sunfire. Tabi's usually the go-to option in cases where you're not sure and you should basically always be running Randuin's/Sunfire (in a full build) anyway.
On June 05 2014 03:30 DrunkenOne wrote: I dont like botrk on WW because it delays your tankyness. I've been going flare->wits->tank. Late game 6 items I'd sell wits for botrk. Wits is much cheaper, synergizes well, and gives a bit of tankyness
Flare fits his style so much better than a spirit item since you are basically farming to 6 anyways, and afterwards probably farming whenever your ult isn't up. After you get flare, every stack is another 5 damage on ult.
Tried this a few times.
I think if you want just one damage item after Wriggle, go for BotRK. It does do more damage than Wit's End, plus the active/life steal will give you more sustain, which translate to more tankiness.
Wit's End is a good item, but BotRK should be the priority.
Other things I want to try:
1. Just Wriggle -> defense. No BotRK, Wit's End, etc. 2. Gunblade instead of BotRK or Wit's End (probably terrible). 3. Rageblade instead of Wit's End.
On June 05 2014 03:30 DrunkenOne wrote: I dont like botrk on WW because it delays your tankyness. I've been going flare->wits->tank. Late game 6 items I'd sell wits for botrk. Wits is much cheaper, synergizes well, and gives a bit of tankyness
Flare fits his style so much better than a spirit item since you are basically farming to 6 anyways, and afterwards probably farming whenever your ult isn't up. After you get flare, every stack is another 5 damage on ult.
Tried this a few times.
I think if you want just one damage item after Wriggle, go for BotRK. It does do more damage than Wit's End, plus the active/life steal will give you more sustain, which translate to more tankiness.
Wit's End is a good item, but BotRK should be the priority.
Other things I want to try:
1. Just Wriggle -> defense. No BotRK, Wit's End, etc. 2. Gunblade instead of BotRK or Wit's End (probably terrible). 3. Rageblade instead of Wit's End.
I feel like you need 1 damage on Warwick to be scary after blowing your ult. You don't really do much outside of that pure tank tbh.
When you say 1 damage item, does Ff count as one of the damage items?
In any case, I did notice that WW does not have very high damage vs champions at end game statistics. So perhaps building damage items is totally worthless on him. However, his damage spells only deal damage on single target and he can't poke, so it is hard to say how valid that number is.
On June 09 2014 21:04 Sufficiency wrote: When you say 1 damage item, does Ff count as one of the damage items?
In any case, I did notice that WW does not have very high damage vs champions at end game statistics. So perhaps building damage items is totally worthless on him. However, his damage spells only deal damage on single target and he can't poke, so it is hard to say how valid that number is.
I always get golem stone on him tbh. Early game his Q will hit very hard. but the later the game goes with np pen/ap you will be doing so little damage with it everyone will laugh at you
i prioritize cdr, and get botrk if they are tanky and we don't have a strong mage or go wits end if we have a strong (fed) mage, since it lowers MR for them to burst with as well
a good example of this is WW Ult then ziggs ult on top
max W or E 2nd? A friend is telling me E max 2nd is standard, but W max gives almost 100% uptime and doubles the bonus AS to you and teammates, seems much better for objective control compared to higher MS midgame?
in oddones old guide he took 3 points in E and then went for W max after. His reasoning made a lot of sense: E radius is too small at rank one but past rank 3 its usefulness declines because it already covers way more than the area of a teamfight or a nearby low hp person when ganking, and having W maxed at level 15 is much preferable to having to wait until level 18.
The difference between lvl 2/3 in E and lvl 5 seems minimal while leveling W gives you almost 100% uptime on a huge aoe AS boost for your team. The clearspeed increase is nice too but really isn't doubling the buff to the team a pretty big deal both when melting objectives and in fights?
People max Q first on jungle Warwick? Uh.... I don't know how that would work pre-wriggles being decent, because that seems like it'd be reaaallly slow. Or if you go ancient golem.
I've always gone w->q-w>-e into: max w with two points q, 2-3 points in e, then level up q or e depending on whether I need more burst or move speed to win a fight/secure kills (in that order). Am I crazy and way overvaluing clear speed? I guess it sort of depends on what quints you use (I use movespeed generally... maybe I should try attack speed and fewer levels in w. I'd probably already be using that but rune page limits). And whether you go wriggles or not. If you go wriggles it seems like leveling q to max is largely wasted except in short team fights/ganks, you're going to run out of mana so quickly because it goes from 70 to 110 mana. At least before you get an item to increase your mana pool.
you don't have any choice. if you don't max q your trading power becomes shit level, it's already not very good so you're basically shooting yourself in the foot by not maxing Q. It also adds more burst for the regular gank -> ult into q.
w max only gives you better clear and unless you want to farm even more and never gank and go feral flare ... that's not a good option. Remember that W is scaled to be a 5 man buff, just for yourself it really is inefficient, early game is about 1v1 and small skirmishes, not big team-fights and early game decides the game very often in league of legends :-) (well I guess that depends what division you're in l0l).
I don't think it's nearly as clear cut as that. A lot of times when you'e ulting people, your burst (from q) is nearly irrelevant because everyone else on your team is doing the killing. While that's not the case early very often, its true soon enough that I'm not particularly convinced q max is hands down better given how much slower your clear is going to be. It's not like you're picking Warwick for early 1v1's in the first place. If you can start a fight by erasing a person, I'd argue your sustained damage becomes a lot more important than your burst, and that is where w max starts to shine.
Maxing w first is also extremely strong for taking objectives- it makes clearing dragons really fast, and your team can shred towers if they are good at rotating. I've had situations where the other team severely underestimated our pushing speed, and we knocked down all 3 mid towers because the enemy team was extremely slow at responding and 4 other people getting a 40% attack speed buff on top of your personal 80% one is pretty nuts. Something to consider, even if that is an extreme example.
I maxed q first for the longest time then thought about it for a while and decided clear speed was probably more important, then had a lot more success after that. I think it's worth thinking about at the very least. It's not like I straight max w either, because an extra point or two in q here or there is quite strong, without screwing up your mana usage.
But you need to survive, that is also why you max Q first... want it or not you are melee and you need to get on people to ult them, what the hell does your W do when you're in there ?
The added Q burst allows you to get people closer to the low hp mark which procs your E and allows you to go in and out as you like and to heal more.
The only thing I could agree with is the fast tower pushing but how often does that happen in solo queue ? Yes people rotate slower but they also regroup slower to push down towers. Do you want to rely on your team to win games in solo queue ? Or maybe you were talking about a 5v5 strategy with your team ? Honestly if you're playing with a team you'd do them a favour by not playing warwick.
I have more than a hundred diamond games on jungle warwick this season, he's a fun champ and he can clearly carry hard but there is a reason he's never picked in competitive (yes I know that jin air game, spoiler alert they lost it pretty badly) he has no ganks before 6.
My perception of how Warwick early game functions (and by early game, I mean once you hit 6) is "spreading the map" as much as possible. Ie, creating unfair skirmishes where it's 2v1, 3v2, or even 3v3 where someone gets exploded. You quickly eliminate your target, then secure objectives in the aftermath as much as possible. If it's a 3v2 situation, you wipe out one target, group up and push tower if the wave allows, and it drops like a fly if you have sufficient levels in w. It creates a lot pressure because if the waves are built up enough you can threaten the secondary tower off one good kill, which forces the other team to react and creates a different pressure point when they're trying to deal with you. \
Another example where w max helps is if they do 4 man ganks bot and take dragon. If you're mid with your AP and have a wave, you can plow to the secondary and sometimes outright kill it depending on how low the outer tower was. 4 man ganks generally take a ton of time when they're diving, so its not too unusual to have two waves to do this (which is a really long time when you have an attack speed buff that large). This opens up the map tremendously, and alleviates a lot of pressure.
Yes, it takes a lot of awareness to do this and it is predicated somewhat on your team. Maybe it would work better in a 5s situation (I kind of doubt it, because spreading the map against a coordinated team is way harder). I wouldn't say my team is carrying me. I've got ~20 games as Warwick in ranked at the plat level, and an 80% + winrate. Not quite your level of competition, but I'm not talking completely out of my ass on this. Most of these games were pre-feral flare too (and a decent wriggles items + feral flare probably made the general concept a lot stronger- haven't played much lately because drops hacks and connection issues that cropped up with patches pretty much killed my desire to play ranked for the time being).
Another thing is, you actually need mana for max q to be significantly better than w. Let's assume Warwick is level 9 with no mana items, no blue buff, and either max q or max w, one point in e, and the rest in the other skill you didn't max (so 5 levels in the primary skill, 2 in the secondary, 1 in your ult, 1 in your e). Warwick will have 460 mana. Let's assume you come to the fight with 400. Not crazy, that's less than one q of mana and somewhat realistic coming out of the jungle.
If you have max q: you ult and you're down to 300 mana. You use q once, you're down to 190 mana. But you have to use w at some point (or are likely to, at any rate). So now you're 155. So you can get one more off before you're constricted by mana regen, so you get 2 q's off (leaving 35 mana).
If you max w and have 2 points in q: you ult down to 300 mana, you q once you're now at 220. You w, you're at 185. Hm... you can get two more q's off after this, although the cooldown is a bit higher (9 seconds vs 6 seconds). You'll also probably have enough to w a second if the fight happens to last that long, given regen. I realize that these fights are generally time dependent, but it's difficult to account for that. If you don't die, let's call it a non-factor for the time being. So all this ends up with:
Damage from Q's:
Max Q (2 q's, 110 mana each): 550 flat, or 32% of targets max health (if the 16% exceeds 275 damage) Max W, level 2 Q's (3 q's, 80 mana each): 375 flat, or 30% of targets max health (if the 10% exceeds 125 damage)
Wait... that's weird. The only difference is 175 flat damage (so 140 health regained from the flat part) or 2% max health damage. Is that really that much (I mean sometimes it is, but if you're not killing a target with it, it's probably not. Hard to predict at the very least)? Granted it's spread out over a fight more for the 3 Q's, but I'd argue that's a good thing (unless you need it to burst a target right this second)- depending on how a fight breaks out, the health regained can largely be wasted on your first q. Unless all of the enemy damage is being dumped upon you very quickly (but you're probably dead in that case anyways).
Take home message: your mana pool matters a lot. If you come into a fight with slightly less mana and max q, you're not really doing that much more. So you either need a fast mana crystal, or to hog blue buff like your life depends on it. Otherwise the damage difference is somewhat negligible over the course of a fight from Q's alone early on when your mana pool still sucks. So W should be winning by a lot unless you have a large mana pool or blue buff, given the amount of attack speed it is giving your entire team (wouldn't shock me if the W only hitting you offset it, and then any other team mate that gets your buff is juts gravy). Except in fringe cases where your lower burst means a dead target vs an alive one and the alive enemy contributes significantly to the fight as it continues.
The longer the fight goes on, I imagine the better max w gets. There's probably a threshold fight length that has to be met before it's better though.
I'm fairly sure I worked out the math on scratch paper before, looked at this and went "damn, given a realistic situation its really easy for max q to suck given clear speed differences..." That being said, I generally hog the crap out of blue buff regardless, so maybe I should max q.
Check my math, I'm prone to screwups.
Edit: Typos. Also, that was a giant wall of text. Might edit for further clarity down the road, because that is really stream of conscious as is. Fixed an error with q being flat or % max health.
ACTIVE: Warwick swipes at a target enemy, dealing magic damage for the greater value between a flat minimum amount or a percentage of the target's maximum health, plus additional bonus damage based on his ability power.
FLAT MINIMUM DAMAGE: 75 / 125 / 175 / 225 / 275 (+ 100% AP) MAX MAGIC DAMAGE TO CHAMPIONS: 8 / 10 / 12 / 14 / 16% of target's maximum health (+ 100% AP)
Assuming he has 0 AP, at level 1 he either deals 75 damage, or 8% max health damage. The break point is at ~940 health.
Say in a mid-game situation. You are level 11. Let's see what he can do with R > Q > E > W build and how much mana he needs.
First of all, at level 11, he has 190 + 30 * 11 = 520 mana.
Rank 5 Q: 110 mana, 6 seconds cooldown W: flat 35 mana R: 125 mana
You are not realistically going to poke people with your Q. Generally speaking when you start the fight you will be at full mana. With that mana pool, you can:
RW = 160 mana, you get 360 mana left.
That's enough for you to Q 3 times. That's plenty, because at 6 seconds cooldown and assuming 10% CDR (I am being generous), that's more than 10 seconds. By that time the teamfight is over.
Thanks for pointing out the error about applying flat or % (I knew that, overlooked it in a long analysis).
I think you're very rarely going to start fights at full mana, unless you plan on clearing jungle camps very slowly or never q-ing people ahead of time. Realistically, that rarely happens. I don't think saying "you're probably going to enter a team fight at 85% mana" is stretching things. If anything, on average, it's probably a lot lower than that unless its a prepared fight (aka, dragon, baron).
Solo que fights that are small skirmishes go over 10 seconds fairly frequently, which is the point- if you're maxing q and trying to make the most use of it immediately, mana is likely to be a bigger limitation than time. At least that's my experience. 5v5s are a different story.
Let's assume mana is irrelevant and you're level 11 and get 3 Q's in...
Max Q's (3)- 825 damage, or 48% max health Level 2 (3)- 375 damage, or 30% max health
Sure, that looks a lot worse. But if you start with max mana, that's a pretty large bias because it costs 110 mana per q, so tilting it favorably via levels and having full mana is going to shift things substantially. If anything, to me that suggests putting points in q and w more equally is probably the most optimum way of doing things if you want to balance clear speed, mana concerns, burst, and team fight survivability or you really need to invest in glacial shroud fairly early. Even if mana concerns are nonexistence, it's not like the attack speed isn't providing extra damage. 450 damage would require about 4 extra ADC autos? The buff lasts 10 seconds, so that's pretty much it right there, give or take. Less burst for potentially more sustained damage. Granted if you have blue buff this all goes to hell and Q compares more favorably.
At any rate, I'm not claiming max w is straight up better, mostly that its a lot more competitive than people realize depending on what exactly you value. And that mana constraints matter a whole hell of a lot, which I think people that play Warwick realize already, so this isn't exactly ground breaking stuff.
Sufficiency, there's a very big thing you're not taking into account here.. WW is also my most played jungle champ, I also max w. The reason for this is because once you get 6 (you rush it obviously), your goal is, like zer0 said, to control the map, create unfair skirmishes, outmindgame their jungler, wards everywhere etc.
The big thing I max w is because it gives an extreme attack speed buff to your adc (and potentially other champs who needs aa). Thereby your baron/dragon/tower taking becomes extreme after you take someone down with your ult (or you know, you can just solo dragon at lvl 6+ when you got madreds/wriggles)
On June 26 2014 10:41 Sufficiency wrote: Also let's take a look at his "mana problem".
Say in a mid-game situation. You are level 11. Let's see what he can do with R > Q > E > W build and how much mana he needs.
First of all, at level 11, he has 190 + 30 * 11 = 520 mana.
Rank 5 Q: 110 mana, 6 seconds cooldown W: flat 35 mana R: 125 mana
You are not realistically going to poke people with your Q. Generally speaking when you start the fight you will be at full mana. With that mana pool, you can:
RW = 160 mana, you get 360 mana left.
That's enough for you to Q 3 times. That's plenty, because at 6 seconds cooldown and assuming 10% CDR (I am being generous), that's more than 10 seconds. By that time the teamfight is over.
I don't know how you call 3 Q's "plenty" on a champion that tends to have to chase after people for a long time to do respectable damage the whole point of having so much healing and chasing ability is to clean up long fights
there are champions that can interrupt your R easily, so being leftwith just your W and autos and 3 q's seems horrendously weak
On June 26 2014 13:16 zer0das wrote: Thanks for pointing out the error about applying flat or % (I knew that, overlooked it in a long analysis).
I think you're very rarely going to start fights at full mana, unless you plan on clearing jungle camps very slowly or never q-ing people ahead of time. Realistically, that rarely happens. I don't think saying "you're probably going to enter a team fight at 85% mana" is stretching things. If anything, on average, it's probably a lot lower than that unless its a prepared fight (aka, dragon, baron).
Solo que fights that are small skirmishes go over 10 seconds fairly frequently, which is the point- if you're maxing q and trying to make the most use of it immediately, mana is likely to be a bigger limitation than time. At least that's my experience. 5v5s are a different story.
Let's assume mana is irrelevant and you're level 11 and get 3 Q's in...
Max Q's (3)- 825 damage, or 48% max health Level 2 (3)- 375 damage, or 30% max health
Sure, that looks a lot worse. But if you start with max mana, that's a pretty large bias because it costs 110 mana per q, so tilting it favorably via levels and having full mana is going to shift things substantially. If anything, to me that suggests putting points in q and w more equally is probably the most optimum way of doing things if you want to balance clear speed, mana concerns, burst, and team fight survivability or you really need to invest in glacial shroud fairly early. Even if mana concerns are nonexistence, it's not like the attack speed isn't providing extra damage. 450 damage would require about 4 extra ADC autos? The buff lasts 10 seconds, so that's pretty much it right there, give or take. Less burst for potentially more sustained damage. Granted if you have blue buff this all goes to hell and Q compares more favorably.
At any rate, I'm not claiming max w is straight up better, mostly that its a lot more competitive than people realize depending on what exactly you value. And that mana constraints matter a whole hell of a lot, which I think people that play Warwick realize already, so this isn't exactly ground breaking stuff.
You are not going to Q any jungle camps unless you need sustain. His Q does pitiful single target damage anyway and there is no point to use it. Wriggle + attack speed marks + cycle W and Smite is enough.
On June 26 2014 10:41 Sufficiency wrote: Also let's take a look at his "mana problem".
Say in a mid-game situation. You are level 11. Let's see what he can do with R > Q > E > W build and how much mana he needs.
First of all, at level 11, he has 190 + 30 * 11 = 520 mana.
Rank 5 Q: 110 mana, 6 seconds cooldown W: flat 35 mana R: 125 mana
You are not realistically going to poke people with your Q. Generally speaking when you start the fight you will be at full mana. With that mana pool, you can:
RW = 160 mana, you get 360 mana left.
That's enough for you to Q 3 times. That's plenty, because at 6 seconds cooldown and assuming 10% CDR (I am being generous), that's more than 10 seconds. By that time the teamfight is over.
I don't know how you call 3 Q's "plenty" on a champion that tends to have to chase after people for a long time to do respectable damage the whole point of having so much healing and chasing ability is to clean up long fights
there are champions that can interrupt your R easily, so being leftwith just your W and autos and 3 q's seems horrendously weak
Well first of all, if you get interrupted you still gapclosed. In certain aspect it is mission accomplished. WW is no Kat, so even if he does he is still a huge threat.plus he is not squishy.
3 Qs is plenty because in most of the teamfights 10 seconds is enough to (almost) decide the outcome. Once it is almost decided, you can just as well clean up without Q or W... your natural attack speed may be enough to do the job.
Think about it this way. The first 10 seconds of the teamfight you are in far greater danger. So if you max Q first you maximize your initial power for a shorter timeframe, where as with W you strike for an even power curve but less initial damage/sustain. I will choose more initial power.
And don't let me get to the part about actually autoing people should you max W first. Q is actually a bit longer than an auto.
On June 26 2014 09:52 zer0das wrote: huge wall of text.
I run spirit stone so I'm always full mana when coming out of the jungle. Also I have a hack that gives me even more mana, it costs 35 gold :-).
edit : also I'm going to max W in all my next jungle ww games then come back and give feedback. Expect a lot of rage due to being killed in the jungle by fucking lee sin.
A mix of even levels Q/W worked pretty well upon trying it. I did notice mana running out faster, but it wasn't too awful.
If you never use Warwick's Q on jungle camps, and you have a single point in w your clear speed is going to be garbage all game long. I don't think that's the best approach if you plan to win.
I think Q max makes more sense with a spirit item, and is probably better in that case. Or with blue hogging, as previously mentioned. Warwick blows without mana, and if you believe otherwise, you need to play the champion more.
Maxing Q then W or W then Q or a mix is definitely not the way to go. You need to rank up your E pretty quickly in order to be useful. If you think otherwise, you need to play the champion more.
From looking at multiple high elo guides and Probuilds.net, I couldn't find a single person who maxes W over Q. E actually seems like a fairly common 2nd max.
I made a custom game to test out Q max vs W max jungling speeds. Using attack speed marks/quints and 9/21, they were basically identical. I reached 52 CS at around the 9:00 mark on both.
It also depends on your comp, though. W is a team-wide aspd buff. For some comps that can be overwhelmingly better than a bit more survivability on the jungler, and it also helps take down objectives faster in groups.
I dunno, I like playing the champion, but I think a Xin Zhao does everything WW does but better at this stage of the game, especially if the Xin manages to get a Feral Flare by the 20 minute mark.
On July 01 2014 16:54 zer0das wrote: I never said completely neglect E. I said level Q/W evenly.
So you are saying you want to focus all 3 non-ultimate skills more or less evenly. This is really bad. If you think otherwise, you need to play the game more.
On July 01 2014 23:43 iCanada wrote: TL LoL, what is your ideal WW composition?
I dunno, I like playing the champion, but I think a Xin Zhao does everything WW does but better at this stage of the game, especially if the Xin manages to get a Feral Flare by the 20 minute mark.
On July 01 2014 16:54 zer0das wrote: I never said completely neglect E. I said level Q/W evenly.
So you are saying you want to focus all 3 non-ultimate skills more or less evenly. This is really bad. If you think otherwise, you need to play the game more.
Just lost
But no, not necessarily. Min/maxing is correct, but leveling each skill as needed for different parts of the game is a form of short-term min/maxing. Kinda like how Yasuo gets two points in E before maxing Q in mid for the damage spike. Or how Leona wants equal levels of Q and E for cooldown purposes after maxing W.
I think a team comp with Warwick that would be ideal includes Jinx. She can really abuse your attack speed buff to shred turrets, and the ult can be used as an burst in a team fight, and its impossible to miss against the target if they're suppressed (though it can be body blocked).
I think something like Jinx, Gangplank, Janna, Lulu would be a really good Warwick team comp. Gangplank blows now granted, but if you're just thinking about pushing down early turrets while being obnoxious about making fights unfair due to speed/kiting if anyone shows up, then it sounds pretty good on paper. A slightly more realistic combo would probably be Trundle for your top and Lux for mid. Warwick/Lux is pretty close to a guaranteed kill every time you come mid if they keep up on farm, and really makes it much easier to survive in the middle of the enemy team for long periods of time. Trundle is king if he has a large attack speed buff for free on top of what he already has, and he's excellent for forcing positional mistakes with pillar.
So maybe something like:
Trundle/Lux/Jinx/Lulu
with perhaps substituting Leona for Lulu. I also think Kennen+Warwick is actually pretty good because Kennen's burst is nothing to sneeze at if he hits everything, and with a stationary target that's really flipping easy (the one time I had a Warwick on my team, I was absolute skewering people as Kennen). Also provides a good peel for the Jinx on top of whatever support you're running.
Possibly replace Ori for Lux.
Oo, here's a good one:
Trundle/Ori/Vayne/Nami- had a team pretty similar to this, the amount of threat generated by Warwick and Trundle, and damage absorbed is insane, so Vayne can essentially do whatever the hell she pleases.
9 minutes is so early into the game I don't think there's not going to be a perceptible difference. If you skill your stuff realistically (two points in whatever you're maxing, 1 point in the other skills, point spent in ult) that's like enough time for 3 points in your main skill depending on exactly where you end?
Focusing on w and not taking second blue buff, the main limitation was the time spent walking between creep camps. I hit around 48 creeps at 9 minutes with 21/9/0 masteries (and was ~2 seconds from getting the little golems at red), but I think the paths you take matter more than what you spec...--
With a focus on q I cleared 46 creeps (again, walking between camps was the main time limiter), but if put substantial levels in q first you can do one full clear, using q once at each camp before you're essentially out of mana. That freaking sucks. The difference between max q and w would be a lot more evident in the next 6-10 minutes, I think.
When you recall matters a lot too, because I was able to finish wriggles with max q due to having to recall more frequently for mana reasons, whereas I was still on razor when I focused on w (strictly because I hadn't recalled twice) because mana is not a limitation if you use q sparingly. I guess you could use q sparingly too if you focused on q, but that seems self defeating for clear speed purposes.
Also, I tried it with movement speed quints and still 21/9/0, and only got 40 creeps cleared with the focus on q at 9 minutes. It was still ~46 creeps with the focus on w at 9 minutes. I think the reason for that is if you go move speed quints while maxing q, you arrive at camps faster but you don't have the 2 second reduction from extra points in w, so its largely wasted because you have to decide whether to hold onto it for the next camp (wasteful) or use it at the present camp and encounter the same problem at the next camp (extremely wasteful). If you put levels in w, the problem is much less pronounced. Movespeed quints while maxing q felt absolutely god awful by feel too, so I wouldn't really recommend anyone do this.
I tried to a full clear at 13 minutes starting at blue buff (with movespeed quints) just to see how the two compared, but an interesting thing happened: with q max I couldn't shove waves fast enough to get to level 9 by 13 minutes (was leeching exp to hit a certain exp threshold and have the entire jungle there). Part of that is random because I don't directly control how big the wave is when I get there, but I thought this was interesting because of how excruciating it was to actually clear a lot of purple minions if I cared about speed.
For the level 9, 13 minute full clear (which is completely arbitrary) I hit 1:26 with w max and 2 points in q (with just wriggles and boots) and I screwed up the q max test because of the experience problem threw off my time and distracted me enough I accidentally put an extra point in w. 4 points in q and 3 points in w cleared in 1:22 though. I suspect q max done right would be about 6-10 seconds slower than w max, if not more (because the whole w issue when you're running movespeed quints mentioned above).
I suppose the take home is, clear speed early is not affected too much by q or w max, nor mid-game if you have blue (unless you use sub-optimal runes), but if its mid-game and you don't have blue, w max has more staying power in the jungle (ie, you can sit and clear all day long, go use your mana to gank, come back, etc). Not really possible with Q max.
I still think a mix is best, because it mitigates a lot of the disadvantages of maxing one over the other. Chiefly mana problems and syncing your w with when you arrive at a jungle camp (or being close to that, at least). Along with health sustain vs sustained damage in team fights.
Edit:
I think putting 3-4 levels in q and w, a point in your ult, and two levels of e by 10 is a reasonable blueprint, then depending on whether you need to survive the initial burst/deal more initial burst or need more pushing/clearing power, decide whether to put points in q or w.
With eve, lee, elise, panth, etc all having been nerfed over the last few cycles, and the change to machete cost hurting the first clears of sustainless junglers like wu and vi, WW got indirectly buffed imo. The proliferation of AP tops and double AP in the current meta is also amazing since wits synergizes both against the enemy double AP and for your double AP thanks to the mr and mr shred. My only wish is that they would revert the flare nerfs back to only needing 25 stacks, but still, overall its kind of a golden age for WW.
Although theres a new bug in the last patch that I keep running into where I ult someone and then cant use W or Q even though they show as being off cooldown, pretty annoying.
Yep ww is in a decent spot right now. I don't start pink ward any more since you can't machete+pink+green any more I take machete + 2wards and get an early ward for my top so he doesn't get fucked at the usual lvl 3 gank. However the bug (which has been there since 4.12) makes him really damn hard to play, it just lost me a game... very frustrating.
If you happened to be wanting to play warwick, do yourself a favour and don't. The bug that stops you from using Q or W after ult happens almost 100% of the time now.
does maxing Q, 2-3 points in E then W still seem like the optimal skill order for jungle WW?
also if you can only buy 2 defensive items with devourer + wits + botrk, is there any merit to buying frozen heart instead of randuin's as your armor item? normally i blindly prioritize health before i have 3k+ hp, but with warwick's built in sustain his effective hp seems significantly higher than his portrait number. 30 extra armor plus 20% cdr and a bunch of mana directly translating to more Q's (as long as you aren't bursted down) seems like it might make up for a lot of the 500hp you're missing.
finally, i assume spirit visage is standard for MR, but is it a good idea to sometimes buy banshee's instead if someone on the other team seems to be saving their hard CC for whenever you ult?
your ganks are horrible pre-6, there are other junglers who are quite as tanky (J4, Sej, Amumu, Malph) and as fast as you (Eve) or both (Udyr), your damage is lackluster, and you provide very minimal utility to the team. Your clear speed gets beaten by good clearers (Udyr, Lee, Amumu)
also devourer + skirmisher's smite + ult is basically a guaranteed point and click kill every 110/90/70 seconds, but yeah factoring in sustain his jungle clear is absolutely top tier.
On November 24 2014 02:20 chalice wrote: does maxing Q, 2-3 points in E then W still seem like the optimal skill order for jungle WW?
also if you can only buy 2 defensive items with devourer + wits + botrk, is there any merit to buying frozen heart instead of randuin's as your armor item? normally i blindly prioritize health before i have 3k+ hp, but with warwick's built in sustain his effective hp seems significantly higher than his portrait number. 30 extra armor plus 20% cdr and a bunch of mana directly translating to more Q's (as long as you aren't bursted down) seems like it might make up for a lot of the 500hp you're missing.
finally, i assume spirit visage is standard for MR, but is it a good idea to sometimes buy banshee's instead if someone on the other team seems to be saving their hard CC for whenever you ult?
devourer->wits->frozen heart->spirit visage is standard imo. I run 21/9 with 5% cdr blues and 5% cdr from masteries for max cdr with FH and SV
On November 24 2014 10:09 chalice wrote: also devourer + skirmisher's smite + ult is basically a guaranteed point and click kill every 110/90/70 seconds, but yeah factoring in sustain his jungle clear is absolutely top tier.
Yeah, that's like (60-)+(40+) true/magic damage on every swipe of his ult every time for very little gold. Did this get past Riot's balance team?
When I play WW in jungle I start with W (for a fast frog clear or an enemy buff steal). Then I prio R>Q>E>W and go for devourer, mobility boots, wits, botrk. Depending, whether we have a tanky character in our team I go into trinity/banshee's or frozen heart/banshee's. Runes are attack speed, flat armor, flat MR.
I feel I can really take out key players in the enemy team or peel enemies off our carriers. Only thing which is really annoying is a lot of CC, like Azir or mobility champs such as Rek'sai/Lee Sin.
I'm a Dia 1 NA, Dia 4 KR Warwick only player. If you guys want help on Warwick to climb ranked elo just shoot me a PM and I'd be happy to give some tips/guides.
So I just found out Kennen can somehow cancel WW ult? Auto q e when u see WW coming at u? How does it work? I believe there is no mention of it in your guide.
On March 20 2015 03:08 Peeano wrote: So I just found out Kennen can somehow cancel WW ult? Auto q e when u see WW coming at u? How does it work? I believe there is no mention of it in your guide.
Warwick is not immune to CC while using his ultimate, it's a channel. Kennen get two stacks from auto and Q, then the last stack when Warwick jumps on him while E is active thus stunning Warwick the instant the channel start.