V1.0.0.150: Thundering Blow: No longer deals any flat base damage (still deals % max health damage and has a bonus attack damage ratio). Fixed: Stun no longer sometimes lasts beyond the knockback duration. Acceleration Gate: Mana cost increased to 50 from 30.
Unfortunately with the Thundering Blow nerf, maxing E first is no longer viable (he lost around 1/3 - 1/2 of his damage from his E). It feels that it is now better to leave E at rank 1 and max Q/W first.
V1.0.0.147b: Thundering Blow: Mana cost increased to 40/50/60/70/80 from 40 at all ranks.
V1.0.0.145: General Improved the responsiveness of his basic attacks, primarily in Hammer stance Fixed: The first basic attack after swapping to Mercury Cannon is now more responsive
Jayce is a melee/ranged hybrid champion with a versatile kit. He does a mix of physical and magical damage, but most of his abilities strongly scale with AD. In general, he can do a bit of everything in the game in terms of damage, poking, peeling, chasing, tanking, and wave clearing (the only thing he lacks is sustain), but he doesn't do any of these particularly well when compared to a champion who specializes in any of these particular aspects.
Innate: Hextech Capacitor Jayce gains 40 movement speed for 1.25 seconds and ignores unit collision each time Transform is cast.
Beside the free movement speed bonus, the lack of collision is essential for certain combos. More on this later. In general this is a passive that defines his playstyle.
Q: To the Skies (Hammer Form) (Active): Jayce leaps to an enemy, dealing physical damage to his target and to enemies in the area, slowing them for 2 seconds.
Shock Blast (Cannon Form) (Active): Fires an orb of electricity that detonates upon hitting an enemy or reaching the end of its path, dealing physical damage to all enemies in the area of the explosion.
In hammer form, Jayce's Q is a gap closer with decent CD and AOE damage/slow. Note that this ability does not allow Jayce to follow his target even though it is targeted; instead he lands at the position of his target when he initially casted the ability. This means that Jayce's opponent can completely dodge this ability if he uses Flash or some kinds of blink while Jayce is en-route with this skill. Otherwise, as all gapclosers, this is a very useful ability on Jayce. It is also part of his wave clear.
In cannon form, Jayce's Q is a strong ranged poke that scales strongly with bonus AD (in combination of E). It is very taxing on his mana, but it also does a lot of damage and it is relatively easy to land due to its range and missile speed. Also note that this ability can be used to check brushes because explosion from his Q provides vision.
W: Lightning Field (Hammer Form) (Passive): Jayce regenerates mana each time he strikes an enemy while in Hammer Stance. (Active): Creates an electric aura, dealing magic damage over 4 seconds to nearby enemies.
Hyper Charge (Cannon Form) (Active): Jayce gains a burst of energy, increasing his attack speed to maximum for 3 attacks. These attacks deal varied damage depending on rank.
Jayce's W's passive provides mana per hit while in hammer form. This encourages Jayce to attack with hammer form, but in general (on the top lane) you can only last hit minions with hammer form when the opponent is missing from the lane. Nevertheless, it is an useful ability.
In general, Jayce's W (beside the passive portion), in either form, provides only additional damage. This means that you should use them as often as possible so long as mana/CD permits.
In hammer form, his W does AOE magic damage around him for a few seconds. This is probably most useful for wave clearing. This is also his only ability that scales with AP.
In cannon form, his W provides a steroid that gives him maximum attack speed for three attacks. This means that any other forms of attack speed bonus on him is void when he activates this ability, which is something to keep in mind when choosing items for Jayce. It provides Jayce with a quick burst of damage that is useful for dueling and taking down towers. Furthermore, you can use W then switch to hammer form, giving you three quick attacks that also makes you regain some mana. This ability also resets your autoattack cooldown, so you can actually get off 4 attacks very quickly if you are positioned well.
E: Thundering Blow (Hammer Form) Deals magic damage equal to a base amount plus a percentage of the target's maximum health, knocking the target back a short distance.
Acceleration Gate (Cannon Form) Deploys an Acceleration Gate for 4 seconds, increasing the movement speed of all allies who pass through it for 3 seconds. This bonus fades over the duration. If Shock Blast is fired through the gate, the missile speed and range will be increased, and its damage will increase by 40%.
In hammer form, this ability is a strong damage dealer which also disengages the opponent via knockback disengage.
In cannon form, this ability synergizes with his Q as well as providing a speed boost for him and his team. In teamfight this functions similarly to Shurelya's Reverie. It is also useful to use this to get to a lane faster, since it is very cheap to cast. This ability can also be used to check brushes, but the range is fairly short.
R: Transform: Mercury Cannon (Hammer Form) Transforms the Mercury Hammer into the Mercury Cannon, gaining new abilities and ranged attacks. The next attack in Cannon Stance reduces the enemy's armor and magic resist for 5 seconds.
Transform: Mercury Hammer (Cannon Form) Transforms the Mercury Cannon into the Mercury Hammer, gaining new abilities and bonus armor and magic resist. The next attack in Hammer Stance deals additional magic damage.
Transforming into the cannon form gives armor shredding and transforming into the hammer form gives magic damage for the next attack. These are autoattack modifiers that work on the next attack. Additionally, while in the hammer form you get bonus armor and magic resist.
Note that the autoattack portion is pretty derpy. For some reason, it makes your next attack really, really slow. This makes this part of the ability really hard to use unless you pre-activate your W in cannon form before you transform or use W after you have transformed into the cannon form.
The MR is especially important for Jayce, because he does not have MR growth per level otherwise (MR/lvl is common for most bruisers except maybe Poppy). If you expect to take damage, switching to the hammer form is a no-brainer.
Since this ability does not cost mana, you should be spamming it as your CD permits so you travel faster.
Runes and Masteries For masteries, you can either go for a standard 21-9-0 set up, emphasizing on attack damage, or you can go for a 19-11-0 set up, getting both penetration masteries and the flat damage reduction from defense. The second setup is very good if you are maxing E first.
For runes, a standard AD carry runepage is recommended (flat damage red/quaints, flat armor yellow, flat MR blue) because he scales really well with bonus AD. ArPen or dual penetration reds can also be considered. MS quaints do not feel very useful on Jayce because he already has plenty of ways to catch up his opponent.
Items Jayce can be built in many ways, but he should use a bruiser-type build. In general, start with cloth 5 or boots 3/4, and go for Phage, two Doran Blades, and boots-2 (Ninja Tabi or Merc) for the early laning phase. You may also consider the Brutalizer, Wringle's Lattern, and/or just a Vampiric Scepter. After that, consider going for Trinity Force or the Frozen Mallet depending on if you want more damage or more kiting.
After this, a good choice is to build Frozen Heart, as Jayce strongly benefits from CDR/armor and mana is always welcome. Otherwise, choose to build damage/tankiness depending on what your team may require since Jayce is versatile.
Combos Combos are important for Jayce since he has a lot of abilities to work with. In general:
To deal damage: (start with hammer form) Q -> W -> E -> R (to cannon form) -> W -> autoattack 3 times -> Q + E. Chase: (ideally start with cannon form) E -> W -> R (to hammer form) -> Q -> W -> walk pass the target while he ignores unit collision -> E.
As mentioned previously, his W provides no utility and it is used almost exclusively to deal damage. Therefore you should use it as much as possible in a combo. Also, CDR is very useful on Jayce because being able to switch between his two forms is very powerful while he waits on the cooldown on his abilities in the other form.
Laning In general Jayce should be played on the top lane. I don't believe he is a good bottom lane AD carry because of his lackluster range (500) and his only steroid (W) nullifies his other attack speed bonuses.
His play style is a mesh of Nidalee and J4. In general, Jayce is a strong pusher because of his W's steroid in cannon form and his AOE waveclear with his Q/W in hammer form. Against his lane opponent, his poke is similar to J4 in the sense that he goes in with his gapcloser, attacks, then walks out.
In general, you should go Q -> E -> W -> E -> E -> R, after which do R > E > W > Q. Your E (in hammer form) is your strongest ability in early stages of the game. Sometimes you can also max Q first if you are against a ranged champion such as Kennen, but I don't recommend it.
Jayce is fairly strong against most melee range bruisers such as Darius and Jax because of his ranged attack and disengage with E; he is also strong against some ranged bruisers such as Kennen, Teemo, and Vladimir because of his gap closer. However, he does not have sustain, his burst is mediocre, and his escape is pretty bad. He is really weak against high sustain laners with range such as Swain and Nidalee. He is also fairly weak against Irelia as far as I can tell.
Teamfight
In general, Jayce can either seek out the opposing AD carry like a typical bruiser, or he can help protect AD carries with CC's from the hammer form as well as speed boost from cannon form. He also has a very strong poke with his Q+E combo in cannon form and autoattack steroid. Therefore, there are multiple roles he can play in a teamfight. Unfortunately he doesn't do any of these things particularly well, since he is not as tanky as Olaf for diving, not as strong as Nautilus for CC, not as strong as Blitzcrank for peeling, not as strong as Janna for disengaging, and not as strong as any AD carries for damage. Typically you will choose a role to play in a teamfight (based on your team's composition) and build his items around this role.
Additional Tips
- Sometimes when you want to knock a target into your team, it is better to use the gapcloser (Q) on something BEHIND your desired target; this way you deal the same amount of damage, but you do not need to walk pass your target (or have to rely on the no unit collision bonus from the Innate if you are already in hammer form). - Note that in cannon form his E extends his Q's range to a fixed amount no matter when his Q actually goes through the gate. Therefore, it is advised to cast his E as close to him as possible so you can use it to cast Q as well as speed boosting. - Even though his W in cannon form gives him maximum attack speed, this can still be reduced by attack speed penalties such as the Frozen Heart. - Note that the bonus speed from his E in cannon form fades over time, but it can be renewed upon touching the gate again, so it is occasionally useful to set up the gate in a way such that the direction of travel is parallel to the gate, instead of perpendicular to it. This way you always get the maximum speed bonus as long as you are touching the gate.+ Show Spoiler +
On July 26 2012 18:15 Lmui wrote: I don't own jayce but one thing is that W in his ranged form is an autoattack reset. You can get almost 4 shots at maximum attackspeed.
Having tried a lot of different styles with Jayce, I'd suggest that levelling his Q first is far superior, as it gives him a lot of damage in either form and his long-range poke is one of his greatest strengths.
He's also an AD caster, meaning that he works quite well with builds somewhat similar to those you might use on Riven, such as getting an early Bloodthirster and then building more tanky.
On July 27 2012 11:45 Jumbled wrote: Having tried a lot of different styles with Jayce, I'd suggest that levelling his Q first is far superior, as it gives him a lot of damage in either form and his long-range poke is one of his greatest strengths.
He's also an AD caster, meaning that he works quite well with builds somewhat similar to those you might use on Riven, such as getting an early Bloodthirster and then building more tanky.
It depends. If you are against, say, Darius, you might as well max E first. Also, maxing Q first is literally hit-or-miss, because it is very taxing on his mana and he can't always last hit with hammer form safely.
It's much easier to get the full combo off by maxing E first as well. You can also hold off skilling R until level 12 and max E + Q first and have godly trading power. Skilling R only boosts the onhit effects, his passive is literally half of the R so you don't miss too much IMO.
I'm convinced that TriForce is a sub par damage item for Jayce. BT is, in practically all scenarios, better on him. It fixes his early game sustain issues and he has 4 AD scaling abilities so the damage increase is absolutely massive. I still build phage but I turn it into a mallet late game. For similar gold costs BT + Phage >>>>>> Triforce.
The rest of my build is pretty similar to yours: Start boots 3 2xDblades on first back BT parts or resists for lane next (mercs/taibi and hexdrinker/phage)
Gonna agree with Trinity being bad for him. He doesn't make much use of: the AS (as you mentioned, Cannon W overrides it and is his only autoattack steroid) the AP (Hammer W only) the Crit (not autoing very much) And the damage he gets from the sheen proc isn't very much compared to what you could have from other items, especially since during your combos you tend to use your abilities too close together to get multiple sheen uses.
His AD scaling abilities, benefit MUCH more from BT - both form QE combos and Cannon W. The sustain from BT fills a big hole in Jayce's kit as well.
Your other item recommendations are fine - bruta is pretty cool on him if you can exert the power it gives you without suffering from lack of sustain/resists Remember that hammer E - your biggest burst ability - is magic damage, though. Wriggles is fine, though I tend to get my sustain from the BT. If I needed armor and sustain earlier, I'd go wriggles though.
Brutalizer obviously only makes sense if you are maxing Q first. But maxing Q first relies on hitting them, which can be a challenge. Maxing E is so much safer.
As far as BT is concerned, I feel that it's safer to get it after Frozen Mallet, which is what I usually build first. Jayce is no Riven; he doesn't get survivability via bonus AD.
No, but he does have rediculous trading potential with the AD over all of his abilities. His kit is built in such a way that if you pull off a perfect combo (cannon W then transform getting 3 melee autos off) you're almost garunteed the phage proc. Lots of good top picks will bully you early so the vamp scepter is necessary to stay in lane as long as possible.
I've honestly never tried bruta on him. I guess you'd have to get it after Dblades? I'd be iffy on an item without any defensive stats unless I was already winning the lane.
I have to agree with BT > TF. I asked myself in GD, and played both quite a bit. BT just feels stronger. Maybe a bit less bursty, and you might end up missing the utility a bit, but his scaling is insane and the lifesteal is soo good on him.
I've been doing BT/FMallet as my core unless I really feel like I need resistances more than what my R gives. FH/Maw are amazing on him as you say.
I also find myself buying Aegis a lot. Whether this is because the rest of my team doesn't buy it or because I like being in the middle of fights too much is up in the air. I doubt I'd buy it if my jungler/support got it on a consistent basis though.
i think i answered u requizen that bt was better and some guy called me a noob. im glad to see im not crazy.
now i can get behind a later game triforce. it makes your q's hit like a truck. jayce is one of the best champs riot has released lately. he gets so beastly late game, and his laning isnt even bad.
On July 28 2012 06:56 Vaporized wrote: i think i answered u requizen that bt was better and some guy called me a noob. im glad to see im not crazy.
Yeah, a lot of people talked about both sides of the debate. It seemed pretty evenly split, but in practice I feel like BT is just plain better. Maybe TF is better if you get really fed and can take advantage of the Sheen proc to chunk people when you're up 5 kills, but that's not really "normal" play, you know?
On July 28 2012 06:56 Vaporized wrote: i think i answered u requizen that bt was better and some guy called me a noob. im glad to see im not crazy.
now i can get behind a later game triforce. it makes your q's hit like a truck. jayce is one of the best champs riot has released lately. he gets so beastly late game, and his laning isnt even bad.
By not bad, you actually mean REALLY GOOD. Jayce's laning phase is awesome because he is ranged. The only things he lacks are sustain and good escape.
On July 28 2012 09:03 Requizen wrote: Donno what you're talking about, Q slow + knockback/stun + shift speed boost + gate is pretty damn good as far as escapes go.
Except he mostly has speed boosts. He is really vulnerable to red buff ganks when his E is on cooldown. Also his E can only disengage one opponent (unless you are really lucky, as far as I can remember).
Of course this is for balance reasons. If he had an awesome escape too I think there would really be no reason to play Nidalee anymore.
Yorick is on the list of "shit that's annoying to lane against", but he kind of is for everyone, isn't he?
Any tips from other people? I generally ended up farming with my EQ unless his ghouls got in the way. That's a matchup I'd consider Wriggle's in, just so I could keep up with sustain and get some defenses against the ghouls, consider a Cloth start on it as well.
On July 31 2012 04:46 Requizen wrote: Yorick is on the list of "shit that's annoying to lane against", but he kind of is for everyone, isn't he?
Any tips from other people? I generally ended up farming with my EQ unless his ghouls got in the way. That's a matchup I'd consider Wriggle's in, just so I could keep up with sustain and get some defenses against the ghouls, consider a Cloth start on it as well.
Well, anything with innate high sustain and ranged harass Jayce can't deal with well. I never played against Yorick as Jayce but I would imagine it would be hell of a lane. I did play quit a few times against Nidalee and that was terrible too because Jayce can't out-trade her.
He's free right now. Jayce is very hard to play. I'm not fully convinced that the damage from BT is enough to overcome trinity force's proc damage but I'd need to try it out some time. I also really like phage and feel like it's even less efficient than trinity stats when upgraded to frozen mallet or left alone. He's very versatile, I like his dueling and utility but feel he lacks a bit on the tankiness.
There's no way of telling how good I would be at jayce without committing to wanting to learn him. I wouldn't want to learn him until I got good enough to win lanes with him.
Also, his melee autoattack looks really clunky even though I'm sure it isn't.
On July 31 2012 14:41 nosliw wrote: what are the typical skilling order? Is R worth taking
Typically, you go E -> Q -> W -> E -> E -> R -> E, then R > E > W > Q. R is worth taking, because it gives you a lot of defense and MR in the hammer mode. Jayce does not have MR per level otherwise, this is something to keep in mind as well.
Alternatively, you can go R > Q > W > E if you want ranged pokes.
I find myself having to disagree. I'm in the air as to whether Q or E max is better (poke vs trading/burst), but I'd never level W over either of them. Unless your strat revolves around taking turrets super fast, which is really the only thing cannon W is good at, or farming everything with Hammer W. In any situation with an enemy champ, I'd rather have as many ranks in Q and E as possible, regardless of which one I go first.
And yeah, R makes you deceptively tanky in hammer form.
You have a good point, but I think W is safer for laning.... because your Q in cannon form is hit or miss, but you can't go wrong with autoattack enhancers (unless you are against Jax). In hammer form, you are not relying on your Q's damage anyway.
Q's damage is only laughable at rank 1. From there it goes up 45 points per level(20 / 65 / 110 / 155 / 200), reduces CD by 2 seconds per level and increases the slow by 50% per level. In comparison, you need to have rank 3 in W for the boosted attacks to actually do 100% of your natural auto damage.
I don't know, perhaps you're right, but I find that in most top lane trades, you're more likely going to be relying on the burst from EQ - shift to hammer - Q auto E than you are standing still and using W.
On July 31 2012 20:28 Sufficiency wrote: You have a good point, but I think W is safer for laning.... because your Q in cannon form is hit or miss, but you can't go wrong with autoattack enhancers (unless you are against Jax). In hammer form, you are not relying on your Q's damage anyway.
eh. i would never max w before q or e. practice your q's through the gate and you will see how much damage they can do.
who spends much time in hammer form anyway? being ranged is almost always better then melee in this game. i just go to hammer to get off my combo and then back to cannon asap.
On July 31 2012 20:28 Sufficiency wrote: You have a good point, but I think W is safer for laning.... because your Q in cannon form is hit or miss, but you can't go wrong with autoattack enhancers (unless you are against Jax). In hammer form, you are not relying on your Q's damage anyway.
eh. i would never max w before q or e. practice your q's through the gate and you will see how much damage they can do.
who spends much time in hammer form anyway? being ranged is almost always better then melee in this game. i just go to hammer to get off my combo and then back to cannon asap.
W is mostly for his Hyper Charge (cannon form). His W in hammer form can also be useful for clearing waves.
On July 31 2012 20:28 Sufficiency wrote: You have a good point, but I think W is safer for laning.... because your Q in cannon form is hit or miss, but you can't go wrong with autoattack enhancers (unless you are against Jax). In hammer form, you are not relying on your Q's damage anyway.
eh. i would never max w before q or e. practice your q's through the gate and you will see how much damage they can do.
who spends much time in hammer form anyway? being ranged is almost always better then melee in this game. i just go to hammer to get off my combo and then back to cannon asap.
W is mostly for his Hyper Charge (cannon form). His W in hammer form can also be useful for clearing waves.
I think that choice really depends on playstyle. I never play him like an AD carry, skirting edges of fights in Cannon and auto attacking. If you do, I can see W max being pretty good. I play him (and so do most people, I think) as a bruiser, most of my fighting time is spent in Hammer form, jumping around and smacking shit. I generally use Cannon only for laning, poking, and finishing off runners.
However, one of Jayce's strongest points is that he has this super flexible playstyle, so whatever floats your boat is great as far as I can tell.
I like maxing Q first on Jayce, it's very good at pushing lanes. At rank 3~4, with sufficient AD, you should be able to 1 shot ranged minions with it (cannon form), which is amazingly good whenever you force the enemy out of lane.
I've started to think E max is the way to go, with R>E>Q>W being my order. Q poke is great, but if you're forcing trades a lot, I like to just use Q to get in range, then chunk them with E (not much they can do about it), then just walk away. You lose some ranged power, but they'll start to think twice about fighting you after 2 or 3 E hammers to the face chunking 20% of their health.
It's still a toss up, though. Q is so good for just forcing them away or keeping them at bay that it's not even funny.
well i guess the main question is what form do you keep jayce in for the majority of the time? I'm usually thinking jayce as ranged for much of the early levels, because he doesnt' really get tanky till the first point into his ulti~, so my thinking process is centered around ranged jayce.
On August 02 2012 05:24 wei2coolman wrote: well i guess the main question is what form do you keep jayce in for the majority of the time? I'm usually thinking jayce as ranged for much of the early levels, because he doesnt' really get tanky till the first point into his ulti~, so my thinking process is centered around ranged jayce.
You can't think that limited. He's both, and operates as both. His role is bruiser with the option to extend his range in exchange for defenses. Farming and harassing should be done from a range, but fighting and trading should be done in Hammer. Late game, poking is done in Cannon, but once the fight starts you should be changing as needed. Hammer to jump in the pack and dive the squishy, ranged to chase/finish off runners, switch back again for the speed boost.
Jayce's natural power is his flexibility and adaptation. Whether he's filling the role of bot lane or top, his burst damage comes from Cannon EQ and Hammer Q-auto-E. While he can do very respectable damage by playing like a ranged AD and just standing there autoing in Cannon form, you're missing out on the whole power of his kit.
On August 02 2012 05:24 wei2coolman wrote: well i guess the main question is what form do you keep jayce in for the majority of the time? I'm usually thinking jayce as ranged for much of the early levels, because he doesnt' really get tanky till the first point into his ulti~, so my thinking process is centered around ranged jayce.
You can't think that limited. He's both, and operates as both. His role is bruiser with the option to extend his range in exchange for defenses. Farming and harassing should be done from a range, but fighting and trading should be done in Hammer. Late game, poking is done in Cannon, but once the fight starts you should be changing as needed. Hammer to jump in the pack and dive the squishy, ranged to chase/finish off runners, switch back again for the speed boost.
Jayce's natural power is his flexibility and adaptation. Whether he's filling the role of bot lane or top, his burst damage comes from Cannon EQ and Hammer Q-auto-E. While he can do very respectable damage by playing like a ranged AD and just standing there autoing in Cannon form, you're missing out on the whole power of his kit.
I try not to think that limited, but essentially from level 1-4, i'm generally in the ranged form, the melee form is only there for going all in for a kill, or harass that I know that I can't get retaliated on.
I go (Q or E) - (E or Q) - W - whichever I'm going to level first. I'll got Q first in lanes where I'll want ranged pushing power (vs Rumble, for instance, so I can deal with Flamespitter), E first in lanes where I feel confident slapping shit at level 1.
But yeah, you're going to be doing most of your first few levels in Cannon, unless it's an easy lane where you can trade from level 1. I still don't think that discounts E max in some situations.
On August 02 2012 05:52 Requizen wrote: I go (Q or E) - (E or Q) - W - whichever I'm going to level first. I'll got Q first in lanes where I'll want ranged pushing power (vs Rumble, for instance, so I can deal with Flamespitter), E first in lanes where I feel confident slapping shit at level 1.
But yeah, you're going to be doing most of your first few levels in Cannon, unless it's an easy lane where you can trade from level 1. I still don't think that discounts E max in some situations.
I could see E max'd first being viable, but I think it's more niche pick than Q first. I'd definitely say I'd probably Q first 70-80% of the time.
On August 02 2012 05:52 Requizen wrote: I go (Q or E) - (E or Q) - W - whichever I'm going to level first. I'll got Q first in lanes where I'll want ranged pushing power (vs Rumble, for instance, so I can deal with Flamespitter), E first in lanes where I feel confident slapping shit at level 1.
But yeah, you're going to be doing most of your first few levels in Cannon, unless it's an easy lane where you can trade from level 1. I still don't think that discounts E max in some situations.
I never played this matchup before due to how broken Rumble was (not that I was afraid of the matchup, it's just that I happened to pick Rumble a lot instead. But I *think* when you E Rumble, he will turn away from you, thus negating some damage on you while you can run away.
I have played Jayce both top and bot and I really feel E max is the way to go. Even bot lane. He does so much damage to squishies that running a kill lane with him bot is really good. Blitz, Leona, Alistar and Janna all work really well with him. Anyone who can lock someone down so he can EQWRQauto x3 E. I've generally gone boots +3 or 4 -> 2 dorans -> Zerkers -> Bloodthirster -> PD -> GA/IE/Phage (into Frozen Mallet) -> Last Whisper.
GA or Frozen Mallet being the 2 defensive options I like on him. Health works well on him because his resists and GA is GA. I am not sure which I like better. I have also gone BT -> Phage -> IE which also works well. If I am playing bot lane in team fights I generally stay in cannon form to start team fights and kiting and then when its cleanup time or if someone is really persistent in diving me/my team sucks
So someone mentioned this before but no aspd jayce can have decent physical burst.
With an IE and 4 cloaks and 3% crit from runes he gets something like 2340 physical damage from 4 shots of W in ~1.6 seconds. Just not sure where to build from there.
I will try it out. Obviously this doesn't build into anything. And trist gets 2.0 aspd with her Q, Pdancer, and levels at level 18.
On August 03 2012 07:46 obesechicken13 wrote: So someone mentioned this before but no aspd jayce can have decent physical burst.
With an IE and 4 cloaks and 3% crit from runes he gets something like 2340 physical damage from 4 shots of W in ~1.6 seconds. Just not sure where to build from there.
I will try it out. Obviously this doesn't build into anything. And trist gets 2.0 aspd with her Q, Pdancer, and levels at level 18.
On July 31 2012 04:46 Requizen wrote: Yorick is on the list of "shit that's annoying to lane against", but he kind of is for everyone, isn't he?
Any tips from other people? I generally ended up farming with my EQ unless his ghouls got in the way. That's a matchup I'd consider Wriggle's in, just so I could keep up with sustain and get some defenses against the ghouls, consider a Cloth start on it as well.
Well, anything with innate high sustain and ranged harass Jayce can't deal with well. I never played against Yorick as Jayce but I would imagine it would be hell of a lane. I did play quit a few times against Nidalee and that was terrible too because Jayce can't out-trade her.
This is strange because I feel like I can take yorick and nidalee as kayle but I can't take jayce on.
On July 31 2012 04:46 Requizen wrote: Yorick is on the list of "shit that's annoying to lane against", but he kind of is for everyone, isn't he?
Any tips from other people? I generally ended up farming with my EQ unless his ghouls got in the way. That's a matchup I'd consider Wriggle's in, just so I could keep up with sustain and get some defenses against the ghouls, consider a Cloth start on it as well.
Well, anything with innate high sustain and ranged harass Jayce can't deal with well. I never played against Yorick as Jayce but I would imagine it would be hell of a lane. I did play quit a few times against Nidalee and that was terrible too because Jayce can't out-trade her.
This is strange because I feel like I can take yorick and nidalee as kayle but I can't take jayce on.
Kayle has a slow, hits harder, and she has a heal, so that might be why. Against Nidalee as Jayce, if you just auto trade you lose (she heals); if you trade with hammer form she disengages with W and kite you. It's a nightmare of a lane.
For some reason I didn't get solo mid and had to play the top lane instead, so I felt like giving Jayce another go. The new Jayce is very smooth now. His melee attack is very fast, and the "bug" with the first attack upon R is fixed. His gameplay is so fast and fluid now.... playing him was extremely fun.
On August 19 2012 17:34 Sufficiency wrote: I feel like bumping this.
For some reason I didn't get solo mid and had to play the top lane instead, so I felt like giving Jayce another go. The new Jayce is very smooth now. His melee attack is very fast, and the "bug" with the first attack upon R is fixed. His gameplay is so fast and fluid now.... playing him was extremely fun.
He's also retardedly safe thanks to his E in both forms, has few bad matchups because he can always refrain from being aggressive and just straight up farm in ranged form and R->E if he gets engaged on. His teamfighting seems insanely strong given your jungler is able to initiate. I'd say he'll become fotm pretty soon.
On August 19 2012 17:34 Sufficiency wrote: I feel like bumping this.
For some reason I didn't get solo mid and had to play the top lane instead, so I felt like giving Jayce another go. The new Jayce is very smooth now. His melee attack is very fast, and the "bug" with the first attack upon R is fixed. His gameplay is so fast and fluid now.... playing him was extremely fun.
He's also retardedly safe thanks to his E in both forms, has few bad matchups because he can always refrain from being aggressive and just straight up farm in ranged form and R->E if he gets engaged on. His teamfighting seems insanely strong given your jungler is able to initiate. I'd say he'll become fotm pretty soon.
I doubt he will become fotm anytime soon. His winrate before the buff was around 48-49%; this buff, which has no numerical changes, won't change his raw power (only made him more pleasant to play imo). I don't think he will be Sejuani #2, but he has been forgotten by a lot of people already.
Also he is far from having few bad matchups. He is very weak against ranged harass (in cannon farm his Q can be blocked, his W is underwhelming in earlier levels) unless he goes all-in in hammer form. His lack of sustain also hurts him badly (almost all other ranged top laners, e.g. Nidalee, Vladimir, Kayle, Swain, have some form of sustain).
When Rengar is released in a few days his popularity will take yet another blow.
Nothing personal, Sufficiency, but I still think pulling numbers like overall winrate is stupid. It says nothing about how well a single champ performs, only how often he's been picked into better teams. It's rarely a single person that wins games, even in soloQ. Maybe I'm just mad, but I don't think it adds any value to the discussion.
About your second paragraph, he doesn't really have to commit to any trades because he's so mobile, and if they decide to come up to me, Hammer-Q-E and running away generally let's me come out ahead. Admittedly, I haven't played much against ranged champions besides Vlad, who I always happened to truck easily, so I might very well be in the wrong here. His sustain is an issue, but since I prefer an early BT, it works out just fine after getting Vamp. He's much like Kayle and to a lesser extent Nidalee in this regard imo.
Soaz just received a couple of targetted Jayce bans at the EU regionals, so I think he might become more popular. I don't know and I don't care, I'm having a blast playing him
On August 19 2012 19:03 Shiv. wrote: Nothing personal, Sufficiency, but I still think pulling numbers like overall winrate is stupid. It says nothing about how well a single champ performs, only how often he's been picked into better teams. It's rarely a single person that wins games, even in soloQ. Maybe I'm just mad, but I don't think it adds any value to the discussion.
About your second paragraph, he doesn't really have to commit to any trades because he's so mobile, and if they decide to come up to me, Hammer-Q-E and running away generally let's me come out ahead. Admittedly, I haven't played much against ranged champions besides Vlad, who I always happened to truck easily, so I might very well be in the wrong here. His sustain is an issue, but since I prefer an early BT, it works out just fine after getting Vamp. He's much like Kayle and to a lesser extent Nidalee in this regard imo.
Soaz just received a couple of targetted Jayce bans at the EU regionals, so I think he might become more popular. I don't know and I don't care, I'm having a blast playing him
Playing as Jayce is awesome,I don't disagree with that. He is extremely fun to play.
The thing with FotM is that if you can't win games with the champion he will fade very quickly. This is why win rate is important: if a champion is fun to play but have low win rates, he will fail to achieve FotM status and remain a "niched" champion.
I think one example is Anivia. Even though Froggen and other people have played him often in tournaments with amazing plays, Anivia remains around 47-48% win rate. It is undeniable that Anivia is one of the strongest AP mids right now in tournamet plays, but her lackluster performance in soloQ means that she will never achieve FotM status.
In the end I rather not have Jayce become FotM. I get really annoyed at seeing my favourite champions becoming FotM since I prefer somewhat more "niched" picks (I was very annoyed with the Rumble changes that made him absolutely broken).
I've been playing some Jayce today. Games weren't bad. I like his jungling as well as his top lane. He feels like a wriggles jungler since he likes the sustain.
I went even against a cho one game today. Came close to dying a few times but didn't. The only death I had in lane came from a malphite gank from behind the tower but I lost my tower because of that. One thing that frustrated me in that matchup was how hard it was to dodge ruptures and how little damage I did to cho since he could just sustain it back killing creeps (30 hp a creep op). It was hard to disengage since he could silence me before I used my hammer form E on him. Cho's always been one of those even matchups for me. Of course cho is much easier when you can get kills on him as he loses stacks and comes back with less health. I didn't get any ganks that game even though I didn't always keep the wave pushed.
Here's something I wrote on ghostblade on the league wiki.
When you autoattack again the skill refreshes again and goes to 8 seconds. Theoretically you could have ghostblade's active on for almost 18 seconds if you autoattacked at the right times but it'd be very difficult and wasteful to do.
The item seems like it would have good synergy with jayce. In ranged form jayce has his W which increases attack speed to the max (300%) so during it, all forms of attack speed are wasted. But Ghostblade only gives conditional attack speed, and lasts longer on melee champions. This means jayce can activate it whenever he is in melee form. Once he has the stacks up he can switch to ranged. The AD and armor pen allow jayce to hit harder on some of his abilities and the crit helps to scale into late game autoattack damage. Ghostblade also has a very smooth build path.
In addition Jayce can use his W in ranged, activate ghostblade after the 3/4 shots on W, and then switch to melee form as ghostblade is about to expire to get the ghostblade stacks up, then switch back to ranged form to make use of the final 2-3+ seconds of ghostblade's active.
Oh one final note. Jayce can activate W in ranged form, transform to melee form, get 1 auto off in melee form, and then use the last two charges of attack speed buff to get the final two stacks of ghostblade's active off. There's no point to doing this, it's just something he can do.
It would seem he would prefer phage for chasing, or bilgewater for the sustain, slow, and active damage though in some matchups.
Just an addition. IE PD is vastly superior to ghostblade and any other damage item on it's own in extended fights. I can't argue against that. But Jayce needs to build somewhat tanky to make use of his hammer form abilities. Most games will have been decided before he can build tanky and IE PD. Ghostblade offers a great single damage dealing item with a build path as smooth as phantom dancer, and better early game stats.
I think Jayce is awesome,very strong and fun. When I play him I'm always in the heat of action and fight like a man, without any bullshit. Much like olaf. The thing about him - its not clear whether he's strong or weak, it depends on how good you are, what decisions you make. There is always room for improvement.
I can see Cho being difficult. Jayce has no sustain and relies a lot on his abilities, so a silence and that passive would be kind of rough on him.
I still dislike his jungle. It can work, I guess, but his clear is so slow, you really need to rely on ganks to get anywhere. That said, his poke and then chunk ganks are really strong, but he doesn't really have super amazing gank presence. Good in solo queue if you want a semi-carry jungle, though I'd probably go Jax over him if I was really intent on winning.
On August 20 2012 13:12 Requizen wrote: I can see Cho being difficult. Jayce has no sustain and relies a lot on his abilities, so a silence and that passive would be kind of rough on him.
I still dislike his jungle. It can work, I guess, but his clear is so slow, you really need to rely on ganks to get anywhere. That said, his poke and then chunk ganks are really strong, but he doesn't really have super amazing gank presence. Good in solo queue if you want a semi-carry jungle, though I'd probably go Jax over him if I was really intent on winning.
As far as I know his jungle is terrible. His clear is respectable and he can duel OK in the jungle, but his ganks are pretty bad.
Jayce belongs to the top lane.
On August 20 2012 13:10 bokeevboke wrote: I think Jayce is awesome,very strong and fun. When I play him I'm always in the heat of action and fight like a man, without any bullshit. Much like olaf. The thing about him - its not clear whether he's strong or weak, it depends on how good you are, what decisions you make. There is always room for improvement.
I agree. Jayce is very fun to play. Maybe one day he will turn out like Lee Sin - secretly OP but takes a long while for people to figure out how to play him. I also have to say he is one of the few bruisers who can pull off really big plays.
Do you all think that there's anything to transitioning into AD carry mode if your team has enough tankiness? Saw a game with Galio mid/Ali jungle/Jayce top, Jayce just basically eschewed any defenses and became a second AD carry for the team (BT/PD/IE), seemed to work pretty well for him.
On August 20 2012 20:05 phyvo wrote: Fun fact: damage from Jayce's W can crit.
Discovered this while stacking IEs.
Don't you see this when you build Trinity Force?
Yeah, but I was screwing around with him on test realm because I use it to try champs before I buy. I only thought it was notable because Riot's usually doesn't let this stuff crit unless it explicitly gives bonus AD. Maybe if I had paid attention to my stats after pressing W I would I have seen it sooner? I dunno.
On August 20 2012 23:47 Requizen wrote: Do you all think that there's anything to transitioning into AD carry mode if your team has enough tankiness? Saw a game with Galio mid/Ali jungle/Jayce top, Jayce just basically eschewed any defenses and became a second AD carry for the team (BT/PD/IE), seemed to work pretty well for him.
Jayce is in my opinion a horrible ad carry since he lacks escapes. Steroid is pretty bad late game too. I'd get an IE PD on him, but I wouldn't do it with no armor and mr unless I was winning by a lot and wanted to have some fun.
On August 20 2012 23:47 Requizen wrote: Do you all think that there's anything to transitioning into AD carry mode if your team has enough tankiness? Saw a game with Galio mid/Ali jungle/Jayce top, Jayce just basically eschewed any defenses and became a second AD carry for the team (BT/PD/IE), seemed to work pretty well for him.
Jayce is in my opinion a horrible ad carry since he lacks escapes. Steroid is pretty bad late game too. I'd get an IE PD on him, but I wouldn't do it with no armor and mr unless I was winning by a lot and wanted to have some fun.
I think the *real* problem is his 500 range. If it's 550 I will gladly play him as an AD carry. Very tanky, versatile kit, good pokes... what more do you want.
500 is more than enough for top lane, though. I was talking about going boots/2 DBlades/Phage into AD carry stuffs + maybe TF later on and spend most of your time in Cannon shooting things. I find range to be less of an issue/advantage later on (except on certain champs with massive range like Kog or Trist). His lack of an escape doesn't seem too terrible, you switch to Hammer for the Armor/MR/sprint, then knock them the fuck back and run away. Better escape than many AD carries.
On August 21 2012 04:55 Requizen wrote: 500 is more than enough for top lane, though. I was talking about going boots/2 DBlades/Phage into AD carry stuffs + maybe TF later on and spend most of your time in Cannon shooting things. I find range to be less of an issue/advantage later on (except on certain champs with massive range like Kog or Trist). His lack of an escape doesn't seem too terrible, you switch to Hammer for the Armor/MR/sprint, then knock them the fuck back and run away. Better escape than many AD carries.
500 is more than enough for the top lane I agree. I thought it was about playing him as the ADC for the bottom lane.
On August 21 2012 04:55 Requizen wrote: 500 is more than enough for top lane, though. I was talking about going boots/2 DBlades/Phage into AD carry stuffs + maybe TF later on and spend most of your time in Cannon shooting things. I find range to be less of an issue/advantage later on (except on certain champs with massive range like Kog or Trist). His lack of an escape doesn't seem too terrible, you switch to Hammer for the Armor/MR/sprint, then knock them the fuck back and run away. Better escape than many AD carries.
500 is more than enough for the top lane I agree. I thought it was about playing him as the ADC for the bottom lane.
Oh no, he has some decent matchups there (Jayce/Soraka poke comp is actually decent in some cases), but he's much more suited top lane. My whole train of thought was "play top but build AD carry if your team doesn't need another bruiser".
I still can't decide which item build to use on this guy.
I usually go Boots 3/4 -> 2x dblades ->phage(unless I need tabi for ranged harass, I get that first. sometimes i skip dorans if I'm fed on the first back) -> Vamp scep -> Trinity ->BT->FH or GA-> ???. Sometimes I throw in a hexdrinker if they have 2x AP or something.
Similar, I generally go FMallet instead of TF with my Phage, as I like to be a man and jump in at every turn. TF is good on him, I just find BT better. FH is a good item for him, so is Maw, and Hex/Glacial is a nice smooth build path. I think I'd put off GA until after both are finished, personally.
I feel like vamp scepter and merc treads are the only cores on jayce. He needs the sustain and movement speed. It's pretty easy to sustain in top lane because you're ranged and can auto no matter what. Even if you get low you can just keep hitting the golems on purple side as they refresh (if your wave is not pushed to tower) for a cheap mini fountain. This is a trick you can do with any ranged champion in the jungle as well.
I think he likes AD items, dislikes AP items, crit early on, and hates constant attack speed until at least late into the game. I like both bilgewater and phage. Phage allows you to trade with people that you can chase. Constant phage procs and movespeed allow you to chase someone from almost full to dead from your tower to theirs. If you can't constantly slow someone though I think the free damage on bilgewater is better for trading in lane.
I like to build him somewhat tanky too so he can dive while ranged spells are on cd. I've build randuins on him against fed AD's (like 12 of team's 16 kills). I figure you don't need the mana from frozen heart but can get that too since it provides nice cdr. Thornmail if you'd like to duel autoattackers or they have several autoattackers.
Hex seems like a good item for him for dueling APs.
I like merc treads on him since he doesn't gain much from the other tenacity items. Tenacity is just really strong.
I know he gets to proc sheen a lot but I don't think it's worth buying AP, mana, aspd, and early crit to get triforce early on just for the proc.
I like your general theory, but I feel like getting an later BT would be nicer than having an early Bilgewater, and then take it to something like Mallet + BT + Resist items (Randuins, whatever) I haven't built phage before without building it into triforce, and I stopped when I decided triforce wasn't worth it. I haven't thought about going back to the phage (the phage itself is quite nice, after all) and just building it into something else. Besides, flat HP isn't so bad on him - it's not like you're relying on shields or sustain in big teamfights, the lifesteal is just so you can cover up your total lack of sustain for the laning phase, you mostly want big AD.
Health is nice on him because it synergizes with his free Hammer resists, making him deceptively hard to take down. Mallet is great because it gives that plus a bit of AD (and Phage being great in lane phase), plus the slow which is super easy for him to apply and keep up.
I will say though that I don't think mana is wasted on him - he eats his mana pretty significantly during any kind of poke phase with ranged EQ poking and W autoattacks. This poke is such a strong part of the character (Even if Q is being leveled last, the significant amount of bonus AD from bloodthirster is being multiplied) that I feel like not being able to get much out of it is a disservice. For this reason, I think Glacial shroud/FH is great on him.
Midgame core I'm suggesting is basically: BT + Phage + Glacial? Might be a bit scary diving into teamfights like that, though. Can go Vamp + Phage + Giantbelt + Glacial if your team needs you to be more meaty early on, THEN finish the BT.
Vs. heavy AP, instead vamp+phage+giantbelt+hexdrinker - in this case, the lateness of bf sword/BT is made up somewhat by the hexdrinker.
If you go phage+giantbelt at any rate, still build the BT before completing mallet. Completing mallet isn't 100% necessary (you're pretty damn good at proccing phage with your ranged W, and you don't really get much defensive stats out of mallet completing anyway.)
FH is very good for him partially because Jayce needs CDR. With CDR he can switch between the two modes more quickly, allowing better chasing/escape and proc'ing R's on-hit effect.
I just have issues getting to FH, lol. Game usually ends by the time I get BT/FM (what I consider my "core"), and unless I really need armor, Glacial isn't high up on my list. When I do get it, shit gets silly. He works so well with CDR that I'll ask for Blue if we have a Kennen or Vlad mid.
On August 24 2012 09:18 obesechicken13 wrote: I did some calculations on the damage of Jayce's W and put them in this spreadsheet. Your conclusions are your own to draw.
On August 24 2012 09:18 obesechicken13 wrote: I did some calculations on the damage of Jayce's W and put them in this spreadsheet. Your conclusions are your own to draw.
On August 24 2012 09:18 obesechicken13 wrote: I did some calculations on the damage of Jayce's W and put them in this spreadsheet. Your conclusions are your own to draw.
Just bought him, he is awesome. I think he is very versatile thats why you can build anything you want, depends on your style. But I think being tanky is the best, since you want to do full combo, that is EQW in cannon stance and QW in Hammer stance, use E to save your squishies. So far, my matchups: Vlad is a problem, Singed easy, Darius medium-easy.
ADCs hurt a lot. Need to watch out. You can't go Olaf's "I DONT GIVE A FUCK" mode .
On August 24 2012 12:08 sylverfyre wrote: It's worth noting that if you're sticking to someone in melee, Jayce's Hammer W has some beefy damage too. Pretty conditional though.
His W's damage in Hammer Form is pretty sick. At rank 5, you do 380 (+1.0 per ability power) over 4 seconds. Comparably, Rumble's Q "only" does 370 (+1.35 per ability power) without the danger zone.
Jayce's W damage is not out of line if you compare it to Shyv's W damage, though. It's only about 12 more DPS with a lot less duration. I don't think any one part of Jayce's base damage is ridiculous it's just the ability to basically get 2 skill points worth of damage with 1 skill point as Smash said.
Well yeah. But it's quite solid, and when you're looking at an early W-max for the ranged form W, you have to consider that the melee form W is quite the sleeper.
On August 25 2012 02:31 phyvo wrote: Jayce's W damage is not out of line if you compare it to Shyv's W damage, though. It's only about 12 more DPS with a lot less duration. I don't think any one part of Jayce's base damage is ridiculous it's just the ability to basically get 2 skill points worth of damage with 1 skill point as Smash said.
OK I admit I don't jungle and I rarely think about Shyvana. After looking up her numbers, her W man... so broken.
Nevertheless, I still think Jayce's W in Hammer Form does a lot of damage, especially when it doubles as an AS steroid.
with one point in bonus damage to towers. It helps me to push slightly faster, which is one of Jayce's greatest strength... and there isn't really a better place to put that point (and I really want Sunder), so oh well.
On August 25 2012 11:36 barbsq wrote: is it just me or does jayce feel like the slowest fker in the game?
How do you even come to that conclusion? Middling move speed and 2 abilities that give him a speed boost, not to mention a gap closer.
idk, i just played my first game with him and just felt like nothing responded the way i wanted it too at all, and his base movespeed just felt atrocious. Idk, i'm going to continue messing around with him, but i was @ like 388 ms with boots 2, which just feels really slow to me.
could also have something to do with the models or the animation or something. Just wondering if any1 else felt the same way on their initial play.
also kinda mad that i just got trashed in lane by garen.
He does feel really slow. As far as tops and junglers go, most are melee so you're used to them having higher base move speed.
Also someone mentioned this somewhere but jayce's E animation in hammer form is so slow. I used it on this annie, she clearly flashed behind me, and I still managed to hit her half a screen. This usually doesn't happen to me as tristana since people usually don't flash as the projectile is moving for trist.
He suffers from a common disorder: that of the tanky dps. You're not tanky enough to take damage from the entire enemy team nor are you safe enough to deal massive amounts of damage since half his ability damage comes from hammer form. I'm kinda getting over jayce. I like his clear speeds, I like his ganks, I just don't like his later game.
After playing it a bit, I still like E after Q. W is great, but you really need to stick uninterrupted to your target for both parts of it, which doesn't seem super realistic in most settings. Or it could have just been the team I was against. Either way, I felt like the burst from Hammer E was more useful.
On August 25 2012 15:20 Requizen wrote: After playing it a bit, I still like E after Q. W is great, but you really need to stick uninterrupted to your target for both parts of it, which doesn't seem super realistic in most settings. Or it could have just been the team I was against. Either way, I felt like the burst from Hammer E was more useful.
I guess it depends, I haven't been really able to figure out the perfect skilling order. The cooldown on W is pretty good though because it allows you to do his best singletarget burst:
(start from ranged) WEQRQW hithithit hit E RW -> EQ hithithit
But the E cooldown seems pretty high for this if you keep it at lvl 1 and you don't get the speedboost in time to chase properly after the hammer so I really am not that sure... Being able to properly REQWhithithit after a melee E is really good enough and also deals far more damage than having extra points in E... But then again the cooldown >_<
On August 25 2012 15:20 Requizen wrote: After playing it a bit, I still like E after Q. W is great, but you really need to stick uninterrupted to your target for both parts of it, which doesn't seem super realistic in most settings. Or it could have just been the team I was against. Either way, I felt like the burst from Hammer E was more useful.
I guess it depends, I haven't been really able to figure out the perfect skilling order. The cooldown on W is pretty good though because it allows you to do his best singletarget burst:
(start from ranged) WEQRQW hithithit hit E RW -> EQ hithithit
But the E cooldown seems pretty high for this if you keep it at lvl 1 and you don't get the speedboost in time to chase properly after the hammer so I really am not that sure... Being able to properly REQWhithithit after a melee E is really good enough and also deals far more damage than having extra points in E... But then again the cooldown >_<
Sure, but I do think once you are ahead in lane you should definitely max W first. It's safer (auto -> GARENteed damage) and it pushes the tower faster.
So basically if you want to splitpushing or be safe, max W second. If you are behind or if your role in your team is for poking, max Q second. I rarely had to be the poke in a game though, perhaps due to the fact that my Elo is too low and no one cares about team comps. Oh well.
Jayce seems like the new fotm on EU, or at least I've seen him always picked top in my last few games. Tips for playing against him? And bad matchups for him? (ie how do I counterpick him?)
On August 28 2012 01:30 Goshawk. wrote: Jayce seems like the new fotm on EU, or at least I've seen him always picked top in my last few games. Tips for playing against him? And bad matchups for him? (ie how do I counterpick him?)
As far as I know, he is pretty bad against sustain based lanes and especially sustain based lanes with gap closers. Renekton and Irelia have an upper hand. He is also very weak against Nidalee.
I would tend to agree, that's my thinking as well; he doesn't have a heal, or any sustain to speak of.
However, in practice, I have found that difficult to play with, simply because he has so many options for harassing you back, and even chasing. Nidalee is probably a decent pick, since you can poke him and heal. Maybe a jax as well, it's a tough call. You have to kind of bully him out of the lane; trade even HP with him and then have a mechanic that gets your HP back faster than he can get his. The thing is, it takes a delicate touch, because if its poke vs poke, his is decent enough. If you stay too long, he has % HP damage and can chase really well.
He's a tough lane, no doubt, you just have to pick on the fact that he doesn't have any kind of healing but life steal and base regen. In the case of a lane against Jayce, I would consider a "failed" gank where your jungle damages him severely, to actually be a successful gank.
On August 28 2012 02:46 Sufficiency wrote: Jax is pretty weak against Jayce actually. Currently I think Jayce vs Jax or Darius to be Jayce's best match ups.
I think anyone who relies on a single gap closer (i.e. Jax jump, Darius pull) and don't really have sticking power has a rough time against Jayce. He just wrecks a lot if not most melees, poke without resist and then fight with Hammer. Nid is rough, maybe Teemo as well.
On August 28 2012 02:46 Sufficiency wrote: Jax is pretty weak against Jayce actually. Currently I think Jayce vs Jax or Darius to be Jayce's best match ups.
I think anyone who relies on a single gap closer (i.e. Jax jump, Darius pull) and don't really have sticking power has a rough time against Jayce. He just wrecks a lot if not most melees, poke without resist and then fight with Hammer. Nid is rough, maybe Teemo as well.
I played the Jayce vs Teemo match up quite a few times and I feel that it's pretty easy for Jayce. In lane Jayce out-trades Teemo hard - Jayce does not need to auto to do damage and once Jayce initiates in Hammer Form, E'ed Teemo back, Jayce can just run away until his skills are back up again. Also Jayce doesn't even need to win the lane - he outscales Teemo so hard it's not even funny.
On August 28 2012 02:46 Sufficiency wrote: Jax is pretty weak against Jayce actually. Currently I think Jayce vs Jax or Darius to be Jayce's best match ups.
I think anyone who relies on a single gap closer (i.e. Jax jump, Darius pull) and don't really have sticking power has a rough time against Jayce. He just wrecks a lot if not most melees, poke without resist and then fight with Hammer. Nid is rough, maybe Teemo as well.
I played the Jayce vs Teemo match up quite a few times and I feel that it's pretty easy for Jayce. In lane Jayce out-trades Teemo hard - Jayce does not need to auto to do damage and once Jayce initiates in Hammer Form, E'ed Teemo back, Jayce can just run away until his skills are back up again. Also Jayce doesn't even need to win the lane - he outscales Teemo so hard it's not even funny.
Probably, I just don't play that matchup a lot. I just hate that badger.
Everyone hates badger. I think it's more about knowing badger's tricks than it is about what champion you pick against him.
Like if you jump him, he'll drop a mushroom on you. It's hard to get out of range before the mushroom activates. Then if you get slowed he can catch you. He also has that passive to get the jump on you when you've used your skills and are in danger. You can't enter brushes or leave them from the ends of the brush as they are booby trapped. And when your ganker ganks through river, they have to make sure not to hit any mushrooms.
I don't think I've played jayce in particular vs teemo.
On August 29 2012 12:31 sob3k wrote: Would Fiora be a good counterpick? Big sustain, double gap closer, block his R attacks?
The only real strength I can see for Fiora in the match-up is that Jayce is fairly squishy early on for a top-laner, and hence her ult is a big threat.
On August 29 2012 12:51 bokeevboke wrote: I feel useless in late game, how should I build Jayce (tanky/dps?), what should I do in teamfights? Whenever I jump in I get blown up.
The most effective way is to play as a poker and peel for your ADC. His initiation is pretty poor (then again, most top laners got no initiation), and his dive is merely mediocre because E knocks back and you probably don't want to follow that up by switching to cannon form in the middle of a team fight.
He can protect ADC so well though. Set up gate, poke with Q + W, switch to hammer form, Q W E... tons of damage and your ADC is super safe.
Don't jump in early. Start the fight with poking with your ranged form Q, W. Assist your initiator (or help your team back off to wait for the right time to engage) using your ranged E. Don't get caught, you shouldn't be the #1 front line for your team - more like #2-3 tank - like an uncommonly tanky AD carry. While your W is up, a flat AD build or triforce build can shell out damage like a real AD carry, for a moment. When the initiation starts, use your ranged shit first, then transform and either peel from your ADC with E or fuck someone up with QW. You don't want to be the first one in, but you're perfectly happy following an initiator (most junglers these days, or an AP or Support with AOECC like Diana/Leona/Zyra/Alistar) with QW. Your kit isn't the best to 1v1 an AD carry (you're no Irelia.) but if you have some help pinning someone down you put out the damage fast enough to focus down anyone you please.
On August 29 2012 12:59 sylverfyre wrote: Don't jump in early. Start the fight with poking with your ranged form Q, W. Assist your initiator (or help your team back off to wait for the right time to engage) using your ranged E. Don't get caught, you shouldn't be the #1 front line for your team - more like #2-3 tank - like an uncommonly tanky AD carry. While your W is up, a flat AD build or triforce build can shell out damage like a real AD carry, for a moment. When the initiation starts, use your ranged shit first, then transform and either peel from your ADC with E or fuck someone up with QW. You don't want to be the first one in, but you're perfectly happy following an initiator (most junglers these days, or an AP or Support with AOECC like Diana/Leona/Zyra/Alistar) with QW. Your kit isn't the best to 1v1 an AD carry (you're no Irelia.) but if you have some help pinning someone down you put out the damage fast enough to focus down anyone you please.
So, in teamfight, I stand aside and do my ranged stuff, then pop hummer mode and jump onto someone. I guess I have to warn my team that I'm not gonna be tanking.
Well. I have been experimenting with him somewhat. And with the build I go I normally end up playing like an AD carry mid/late game when I am not getting jumped on or focused (ie. EQ poke and W then autoattack and If I see someone low nearby - go melee and use EQ again and shit).
2 dorans - CDR boots - Brut - BT/TF - TF/BT by this time the game is normally over - but I normally end up with GA.
I do have some variations if I need to be tankier etc. Like Shuelias instead of brut, and maybe FH, or even warmogs atmas.
On August 29 2012 12:59 sylverfyre wrote: Don't jump in early. Start the fight with poking with your ranged form Q, W. Assist your initiator (or help your team back off to wait for the right time to engage) using your ranged E. Don't get caught, you shouldn't be the #1 front line for your team - more like #2-3 tank - like an uncommonly tanky AD carry. While your W is up, a flat AD build or triforce build can shell out damage like a real AD carry, for a moment. When the initiation starts, use your ranged shit first, then transform and either peel from your ADC with E or fuck someone up with QW. You don't want to be the first one in, but you're perfectly happy following an initiator (most junglers these days, or an AP or Support with AOECC like Diana/Leona/Zyra/Alistar) with QW. Your kit isn't the best to 1v1 an AD carry (you're no Irelia.) but if you have some help pinning someone down you put out the damage fast enough to focus down anyone you please.
So, in teamfight, I stand aside and do my ranged stuff, then pop hummer mode and jump onto someone. I guess I have to warn my team that I'm not gonna be tanking.
Yeah, Jayce isn't a front line beast. With single target + long CD on your only hard CC and not much innate tankiness you don't offer much as a front line fighter. The Armor/MR you get from hammer mode basically just makes up for what most other melee champs get as base stats, and none of your kit except the resists from hammer mode has anything to do with survivability at all.
using tri bt ga build then either wits or frozen hear or maw . starting boots pots x2 doran or doran and hex depending on lane phage -> - tri either ga or bt then etc
Whoever said high sustain champs are bad for Jayce is a big fat liar. Sustain champs+jungler camping him... maybe.
I don't think Nidalee, Renekton, or Yorick can do enough to boot Jayce out of lane fast enough. As long as you don't try to kill them, they're not going to kill you.
Irelia is about the only pick that can probably bully him, if you blade surge to a creep and then blade surge to him if he boots you away.
Edit: After playing some more games, Garen can beat Jayce's face in... thereotically Jayce can boot away Garen before he silences you, but sometimes you screw up and if you get low enough, he can just flash, silence, judgement, and ult you for an easy kill.
Gonna disagree about Yorick and Garen. Yorick I think is a fairly good pick vs Jayce as he can whittle down Jayce hard early before he gets any kind of sustain, plus blocking Q with a ghoul is OP. Garen, on the other hand, I feel like I can dance circles around him on Jayce.
I haven't really had problems with either Yorick or Nidalee. Worst case scenario get vamp quints and you should be able to survive (but I haven't needed them against either). I go 19/11/0 masteries (picking up both magic and armor penetration), flat AD marks/quints, armor seals, scaling mr glyphs.. Probably sounds dumb, but if you start a dorans blade against Yorick he's generally going to run out of mana before he wears you down (yeah yeah, asking to get ganked... play passively. it's better than getting knocked out of lane super early). Stack a few dorans and then work on resists a bit before getting other damage items.
Nidalee is slightly more annoying, but it's definitely doable. Not saying they're easy matchups, and you're probably not going to kill either of them by yourself, but I don't feel like they can kill you either if you play the matchup well.
On September 12 2012 12:20 zer0das wrote: I haven't really had problems with either Yorick or Nidalee. Worst case scenario get vamp quints and you should be able to survive (but I haven't needed them against either). I go 19/11/0 masteries (picking up both magic and armor penetration), flat AD marks/quints, armor seals, scaling mr glyphs.. Probably sounds dumb, but if you start a dorans blade against Yorick he's generally going to run out of mana before he wears you down (yeah yeah, asking to get ganked... play passively. it's better than getting knocked out of lane super early). Stack a few dorans and then work on resists a bit before getting other damage items.
Nidalee is slightly more annoying, but it's definitely doable. Not saying they're easy matchups, and you're probably not going to kill either of them by yourself, but I don't feel like they can kill you either if you play the matchup well.
Well, when I say "bad matchups", I just mean "matchups that turn into farm lanes because they can't really stop you". I don't think Jayce has any lanes where he straight up loses... maybe Riven?
On September 12 2012 12:53 Requizen wrote: Well, when I say "bad matchups", I just mean "matchups that turn into farm lanes because they can't really stop you". I don't think Jayce has any lanes where he straight up loses... maybe Riven?
I've only played against Jayce as Riven once, but I couldn't get anything started for the life of me. He maxed E and just hammered me out if I burned my skills to get close. If there's a way to beat Jayce with Riven I'm all ears, but it seemed a pretty hard match for her with his spacing control.
On September 12 2012 12:53 Requizen wrote: Well, when I say "bad matchups", I just mean "matchups that turn into farm lanes because they can't really stop you". I don't think Jayce has any lanes where he straight up loses... maybe Riven?
I've only played against Jayce as Riven once, but I couldn't get anything started for the life of me. He maxed E and just hammered me out if I burned my skills to get close. If there's a way to beat Jayce with Riven I'm all ears, but it seemed a pretty hard match for her with his spacing control.
I only had this matchup once as Riven aswell. I feel it's like Riven vs. Shen, you're not going to kill him so just turn it into a farm lane. In the end Riven has a bigger late game presence, it seems, so she looks like a safe pick against him.
EDIT: Can I couch this statement any more? Before the original version I had two more conditional phrases in it. XD
On September 12 2012 12:53 Requizen wrote: Well, when I say "bad matchups", I just mean "matchups that turn into farm lanes because they can't really stop you". I don't think Jayce has any lanes where he straight up loses... maybe Riven?
I've only played against Jayce as Riven once, but I couldn't get anything started for the life of me. He maxed E and just hammered me out if I burned my skills to get close. If there's a way to beat Jayce with Riven I'm all ears, but it seemed a pretty hard match for her with his spacing control.
Ive played it a couple times, you completely shit on her the entire lane phase. Her stun -> dash wont do shit, when you get unstunned Q E(cause we know e's a balanced skill) then you could shift to cannon and w her or something but usually q->e hammer is enough. Lategame you just do so much more.
tldr spam autoattacks and q e at later ranks -> free win
On September 12 2012 12:20 zer0das wrote: I haven't really had problems with either Yorick or Nidalee. Worst case scenario get vamp quints and you should be able to survive (but I haven't needed them against either). I go 19/11/0 masteries (picking up both magic and armor penetration), flat AD marks/quints, armor seals, scaling mr glyphs.. Probably sounds dumb, but if you start a dorans blade against Yorick he's generally going to run out of mana before he wears you down (yeah yeah, asking to get ganked... play passively. it's better than getting knocked out of lane super early). Stack a few dorans and then work on resists a bit before getting other damage items.
Nidalee is slightly more annoying, but it's definitely doable. Not saying they're easy matchups, and you're probably not going to kill either of them by yourself, but I don't feel like they can kill you either if you play the matchup well.
This just...what?
Why would you get a Doran's if you plan to play passively? That just makes no sense at all.
On September 16 2012 05:39 Bladeorade wrote: Riven does not have a bigger late game presence than an AD carry
And I don't consider Jayce an ADC so...
You dont consider an ADC an ADC? Okay... If you build him bruiser he isnt an ADC but he works really well just straight AD corki/ez style with triforce instead of PD.
On September 12 2012 12:20 zer0das wrote: I haven't really had problems with either Yorick or Nidalee. Worst case scenario get vamp quints and you should be able to survive (but I haven't needed them against either). I go 19/11/0 masteries (picking up both magic and armor penetration), flat AD marks/quints, armor seals, scaling mr glyphs.. Probably sounds dumb, but if you start a dorans blade against Yorick he's generally going to run out of mana before he wears you down (yeah yeah, asking to get ganked... play passively. it's better than getting knocked out of lane super early). Stack a few dorans and then work on resists a bit before getting other damage items.
Nidalee is slightly more annoying, but it's definitely doable. Not saying they're easy matchups, and you're probably not going to kill either of them by yourself, but I don't feel like they can kill you either if you play the matchup well.
This just...what?
Why would you get a Doran's if you plan to play passively? That just makes no sense at all.
Why not? You need sustain, the extra damage keeps them honest. You want to play aggressive with a doran's blade and no boots? Asking to get ganked and die if you're top lane...
On September 16 2012 05:39 Bladeorade wrote: Riven does not have a bigger late game presence than an AD carry
And I don't consider Jayce an ADC so...
You dont consider an ADC an ADC? Okay... If you build him bruiser he isnt an ADC but he works really well just straight AD corki/ez style with triforce instead of PD.
IE/Triforce/BT/GA/LW
1. 500 range, compared to every carry besides Kog and Sivir that have 550-700
2. Weak steroid. Every other carry besides Caitlyn has a huge steroid
3. Lack of burst. Sure his EQ is great poke but on a 10-ish second CD.
4. His entire Hammer form side of his kit requires him to be in melee range. On a carry? No.
Yeah W is such a bad steroid, only virtually 4 autos at 2.5 AS and 130% damage, shit sucks. People play him BT-triforce top now, which is akin to Ez and Corki builds.
On September 16 2012 12:01 Alaric wrote: Yeah W is such a bad steroid, only virtually 4 autos at 2.5 AS and 130% damage, shit sucks.
It's actually not that great since it doesn't last as long and many carries can reach 2.0 aspd with just pdancer and their normal steroid ability for longer than jayce. It's good early on, especially if you build a lot of AD but no one maxes W on jayce.
My problem with squishy AD jayce and kayle is that I just think... "well Tristana would be so much better at this point in the game with the same items."
On September 12 2012 12:20 zer0das wrote: I haven't really had problems with either Yorick or Nidalee. Worst case scenario get vamp quints and you should be able to survive (but I haven't needed them against either). I go 19/11/0 masteries (picking up both magic and armor penetration), flat AD marks/quints, armor seals, scaling mr glyphs.. Probably sounds dumb, but if you start a dorans blade against Yorick he's generally going to run out of mana before he wears you down (yeah yeah, asking to get ganked... play passively. it's better than getting knocked out of lane super early). Stack a few dorans and then work on resists a bit before getting other damage items.
Nidalee is slightly more annoying, but it's definitely doable. Not saying they're easy matchups, and you're probably not going to kill either of them by yourself, but I don't feel like they can kill you either if you play the matchup well.
This just...what?
Why would you get a Doran's if you plan to play passively? That just makes no sense at all.
Why not? You need sustain, the extra damage keeps them honest. You want to play aggressive with a doran's blade and no boots? Asking to get ganked and die if you're top lane...
You get Doran's to all in them early and get kills. That's why champions like Pantheon and Riven in certain matchups gets it.
You have far less sustain and less mobility starting Doran's than any other start. It's DESIGNED to be aggressive, starting Doran's and playing passively is just plain wrong. You will get pushed out of a lane much faster with a Doran's start than a Boots 3 start.
Well Jayce is quite interesting because it was obvious from the start that his kit is extremely strong and versatile. When professional top laners finally decided to learn him his strength really began to show.
A few things:
1) Jayce has extremely high mobility which is important in the current meta 2) Jayce can be ranged, he has the ability to farm in 1v2 lanes 3) Jayce pretty much has no hard counter in lane. Vlad and Yorick can go even with him, with the matchup being more skilled based. 4) Jayce has insane poke with his Q burst and gate. 5) It is very difficult to counter him with specific item builds. He does a lot of magic damage as well as having the ability to do high physical damage 6) Jayce can fit in a variety of team comps. You do not need a poke comp for him to work. Late game his damage is insane and he is pretty much like a 2nd AD Carry with massive poke damage and mobility. 7) All Jayce needs to build is BT - > LW - > GA with Berserker Greaves or CDR Boots - It is a much stronger build than going the Tri-Force route on him, even though that does have some uses. 8) I fully expect a Jayce nerf in the near future. His damage, mobility, and utility is insane. It took a while for people to finally learn him and while his skill cap is high, it was no surprise that he has become so popular.
Well Jayce is quite interesting because it was obvious from the start that his kit is extremely strong and versatile. When professional top laners finally decided to learn him his strength really began to show.
A few things:
1) Jayce has extremely high mobility which is important in the current meta 2) Jayce can be ranged, he has the ability to farm in 1v2 lanes 3) Jayce pretty much has no hard counter in lane. Vlad and Yorick can go even with him, with the matchup being more skilled based. 4) Jayce has insane poke with his Q burst and gate. 5) It is very difficult to counter him with specific item builds. He does a lot of magic damage as well as having the ability to do high physical damage 6) Jayce can fit in a variety of team comps. You do not need a poke comp for him to work. Late game his damage is insane and he is pretty much like a 2nd AD Carry with massive poke damage and mobility. 7) All Jayce needs to build is BT - > LW - > GA with Berserker Greaves or CDR Boots - It is a much stronger build than going the Tri-Force route on him, even though that does have some uses. 8) I fully expect a Jayce nerf in the near future. His damage, mobility, and utility is insane. It took a while for people to finally learn him and while his skill cap is high, it was no surprise that he has become so popular.
About 8, this is from the PBE: Jayce Thundering Blow / Acceleration Gate [ E ] - Mana cost is now 40/50/60/70/80 Mana (Change from 40 mana)
On September 16 2012 12:01 Alaric wrote: Yeah W is such a bad steroid, only virtually 4 autos at 2.5 AS and 130% damage, shit sucks.
It's actually not that great since it doesn't last as long and many carries can reach 2.0 aspd with just pdancer and their normal steroid ability for longer than jayce. It's good early on, especially if you build a lot of AD but no one maxes W on jayce.
My problem with squishy AD jayce and kayle is that I just think... "well Tristana would be so much better at this point in the game with the same items."
Yeah except Tristana top lane hasn't been experimented with, nor does she bring the same utility as Kayle or Jayce top.
You play Kayle and Jayce top to abuse bruisers, get free farm, have a secondary AD carry (meaning both of you cant be focused,) and for the situational utility they bring. With Kayle you get the small heal + MS boost as well as a great slow and that OP invulnerability Ult. With Jayce you get Shurelyas on a low ass cooldown and huge poke as well as situational slow (mostly for chasing) and knockback.
Jayce also wrecks most top laners because he decides when to fight, and when to disengage, same with Kayle though not as powerfully since her slow isnt as strong as Jayces knock back.
On September 16 2012 12:01 Alaric wrote: Yeah W is such a bad steroid, only virtually 4 autos at 2.5 AS and 130% damage, shit sucks.
It's actually not that great since it doesn't last as long and many carries can reach 2.0 aspd with just pdancer and their normal steroid ability for longer than jayce. It's good early on, especially if you build a lot of AD but no one maxes W on jayce.
My problem with squishy AD jayce and kayle is that I just think... "well Tristana would be so much better at this point in the game with the same items."
Yeah except Tristana top lane hasn't been experimented with, nor does she bring the same utility as Kayle or Jayce top.
You play Kayle and Jayce top to abuse bruisers, get free farm, have a secondary AD carry (meaning both of you cant be focused,) and for the situational utility they bring. With Kayle you get the small heal + MS boost as well as a great slow and that OP invulnerability Ult. With Jayce you get Shurelyas on a low ass cooldown and huge poke as well as situational slow (mostly for chasing) and knockback.
Jayce also wrecks most top laners because he decides when to fight, and when to disengage, same with Kayle though not as powerfully since her slow isnt as strong as Jayces knock back.
I think you overestimate both kayle and jayce's utility and if I wanted a second AD carry on my team I'd pick someone with a kit built for an AD carry.
People may call tristana top a troll pick and dodge, they may flame you in game, but it has to be superior to full AD jayce.
Fuck this champion. Far too strong, ungankable and too much utility, it's basically an improved ad nidalee, and I fucking HATE ad nidalee. That, and his manly jawline makes me feel insecure about myself.
On September 16 2012 12:01 Alaric wrote: Yeah W is such a bad steroid, only virtually 4 autos at 2.5 AS and 130% damage, shit sucks.
It's actually not that great since it doesn't last as long and many carries can reach 2.0 aspd with just pdancer and their normal steroid ability for longer than jayce. It's good early on, especially if you build a lot of AD but no one maxes W on jayce.
My problem with squishy AD jayce and kayle is that I just think... "well Tristana would be so much better at this point in the game with the same items."
Yeah except Tristana top lane hasn't been experimented with, nor does she bring the same utility as Kayle or Jayce top.
You play Kayle and Jayce top to abuse bruisers, get free farm, have a secondary AD carry (meaning both of you cant be focused,) and for the situational utility they bring. With Kayle you get the small heal + MS boost as well as a great slow and that OP invulnerability Ult. With Jayce you get Shurelyas on a low ass cooldown and huge poke as well as situational slow (mostly for chasing) and knockback.
Jayce also wrecks most top laners because he decides when to fight, and when to disengage, same with Kayle though not as powerfully since her slow isnt as strong as Jayces knock back.
I think you overestimate both kayle and jayce's utility and if I wanted a second AD carry on my team I'd pick someone with a kit built for an AD carry.
People may call tristana top a troll pick and dodge, they may flame you in game, but it has to be superior to full AD jayce.
Jayce also has the flexiblity to be a full on bruiser if need be, free resists, sticking power, and burst are pretty good. Top lane Trist (or any other ADC aside from maybe Urgot) can't boast that.
On September 16 2012 12:01 Alaric wrote: Yeah W is such a bad steroid, only virtually 4 autos at 2.5 AS and 130% damage, shit sucks.
It's actually not that great since it doesn't last as long and many carries can reach 2.0 aspd with just pdancer and their normal steroid ability for longer than jayce. It's good early on, especially if you build a lot of AD but no one maxes W on jayce.
My problem with squishy AD jayce and kayle is that I just think... "well Tristana would be so much better at this point in the game with the same items."
Yeah except Tristana top lane hasn't been experimented with, nor does she bring the same utility as Kayle or Jayce top.
You play Kayle and Jayce top to abuse bruisers, get free farm, have a secondary AD carry (meaning both of you cant be focused,) and for the situational utility they bring. With Kayle you get the small heal + MS boost as well as a great slow and that OP invulnerability Ult. With Jayce you get Shurelyas on a low ass cooldown and huge poke as well as situational slow (mostly for chasing) and knockback.
Jayce also wrecks most top laners because he decides when to fight, and when to disengage, same with Kayle though not as powerfully since her slow isnt as strong as Jayces knock back.
I think you overestimate both kayle and jayce's utility and if I wanted a second AD carry on my team I'd pick someone with a kit built for an AD carry.
People may call tristana top a troll pick and dodge, they may flame you in game, but it has to be superior to full AD jayce.
as requizen pointed out, it's much more reasonable to compare the way urgot plays top lane rather than trist. Trist simply doesn't trash top lanes as hard as jayce does, and in some ways, the late game benefits are kinda moot if you consider the fact that jayce just curbstomps a ton of top laners, and is substantially more effective in the midgame. Jayce needs like 2 items to be a serious threat, if you compare similar timings on, say bt + GA, then jayce >>>>>> trist, trist needs like 4 items before she starts really pulling far ahead of jayce.
also the util on accel gate is nuts. That is easily jayce's best skill in his entire kit.
Blade says he builds Jayce like an AD I was arguing that squishy full AD jayce was a bad build I don't understand the counterargument now that bruiser jayce is a good build. Bruiser jayce is a good build. This is the way to play him. I agree.
On September 17 2012 07:36 obesechicken13 wrote: Blade says he builds Jayce like an AD I was arguing that squishy full AD jayce was a bad build I don't understand the counterargument now that bruiser jayce is a good build. Bruiser jayce is a good build. This is the way to play him. I agree.
There isn't much distinction, though. DBlades/BT/TF is pretty much the build for both. I guess later on bruiser gets GA and AD gets IE or whatever, but that core isn't going to be different for like the first ~30+ minutes of the game.
Well Jayce is quite interesting because it was obvious from the start that his kit is extremely strong and versatile. When professional top laners finally decided to learn him his strength really began to show.
A few things:
1) Jayce has extremely high mobility which is important in the current meta 2) Jayce can be ranged, he has the ability to farm in 1v2 lanes 3) Jayce pretty much has no hard counter in lane. Vlad and Yorick can go even with him, with the matchup being more skilled based. 4) Jayce has insane poke with his Q burst and gate. 5) It is very difficult to counter him with specific item builds. He does a lot of magic damage as well as having the ability to do high physical damage 6) Jayce can fit in a variety of team comps. You do not need a poke comp for him to work. Late game his damage is insane and he is pretty much like a 2nd AD Carry with massive poke damage and mobility. 7) All Jayce needs to build is BT - > LW - > GA with Berserker Greaves or CDR Boots - It is a much stronger build than going the Tri-Force route on him, even though that does have some uses. 8) I fully expect a Jayce nerf in the near future. His damage, mobility, and utility is insane. It took a while for people to finally learn him and while his skill cap is high, it was no surprise that he has become so popular.
About 8, this is from the PBE: Jayce Thundering Blow / Acceleration Gate [ E ] - Mana cost is now 40/50/60/70/80 Mana (Change from 40 mana)
I knew nerf was incoming. His E is too strong. glad they didn't nerf cdr or damage.
On September 17 2012 07:36 obesechicken13 wrote: Blade says he builds Jayce like an AD I was arguing that squishy full AD jayce was a bad build I don't understand the counterargument now that bruiser jayce is a good build. Bruiser jayce is a good build. This is the way to play him. I agree.
Building pure ad Jayce is much better than building bruiser (defense items). You will mostly do burst damage, his combo is very deadly if he has have around ~250 damage. Building defense items on him is a waste since you don't do prolonged autoattack fights, nor you stay in the middle of the battle. You mostly hop in and hop out, poke, run around and do damage. And you don't roam and take 1v1 fights, unless you can finish it in one burst. Jayce is great with team, farming and pushing. But not good in pure 1v1 (in lategame). Get BT, Brutalizer, IE. TF, you will do insane amount of damage. Never build AS items, you can use ghost blade as a single AS item.
General tactic is poking until teamfight starts, stay away until CCs and ults are used, then do your full combo.
On September 17 2012 07:36 obesechicken13 wrote: Blade says he builds Jayce like an AD I was arguing that squishy full AD jayce was a bad build I don't understand the counterargument now that bruiser jayce is a good build. Bruiser jayce is a good build. This is the way to play him. I agree.
So phage into bt into tf /GA is a bruiser build? I have seen this exact build on many corki and ezreal players and never on a bruiser that wasn't fed. Follow up with lw ie.
You keep saying full AD build jayce is bad, but you're not saying what's good..? There's squishier builds out there than BT TF GA. Maybe if you were more specific in what you were calling a bruiser build, you'd get more agreement. But I think it's more effective to do more ADcarry/ADcaster builds, and only jump into the front lines when it's safer. Even if you built a slew of tank items, Bruiser Jayce isn't bringing as much as typical bruisers, and bruiser just isn't an amazing role to be playing as the game ticks into the 3+ full item mark. I see jayce as "Bruiser in lane, semicarry in teamfights" + some great utility with his accel gate and knockback.
On September 17 2012 20:32 obesechicken13 wrote: I don't think there's going to be a happy resolution. I disagree with everything you guys say and think you need to read more.
You say squishy ad jayce is a bad build. The consensus best build on jayce is squishy ad plus GA. You disagree for reasons still unbeknownst to us.
so i finally picked up jayce and decided to play him a bit when i get top lane and in twisted treeline i've got the general skill order down (Q>W>E with a point of E early, don't touch R) and basic playstyle down. i still don't seem to be hitting as hard as opposing jayces though
do we have a definitive rune/mastery decision on jayce yet? currently running 21/9/0 with both 10%mpen and 10%arpen. runepage is a mix of AD and arpen (plus defensive yellows/blues). is this optimal? should i prioritize AD over arpen or vice versa?
as for playstyle, i've been sticking primarily in ranged. need to learn when to go melee and QE a bit better. is that the best way to trade as jayce? just melee QE ranged poke poke back off?
which part of triforce do i build first? been going phage first but ranged procs are pretty inconsequential. should i prioritize sheen? after TF BT GA, should i go more BTs or LW, or something else entirely?
I get BT before I get Triforce (if I get TriForce), all that AD scaling early on is brutal. Pure AD Jayce with no defenses really isn't something I've tried yet.
On September 18 2012 05:02 gtrsrs wrote: so i finally picked up jayce and decided to play him a bit when i get top lane and in twisted treeline i've got the general skill order down (Q>W>E with a point of E early, don't touch R) and basic playstyle down. i still don't seem to be hitting as hard as opposing jayces though
do we have a definitive rune/mastery decision on jayce yet? currently running 21/9/0 with both 10%mpen and 10%arpen. runepage is a mix of AD and arpen (plus defensive yellows/blues). is this optimal? should i prioritize AD over arpen or vice versa?
as for playstyle, i've been sticking primarily in ranged. need to learn when to go melee and QE a bit better. is that the best way to trade as jayce? just melee QE ranged poke poke back off?
which part of triforce do i build first? been going phage first but ranged procs are pretty inconsequential. should i prioritize sheen? after TF BT GA, should i go more BTs or LW, or something else entirely?
Suppose to be E first.
From what I've noticed from a lot of top Jayce players (like WoDx, and Dyrus), general consensus is dblade->phage->triforce->BT->GA. Though BT is better than TF, TF just has a much much smoother build.
Randuins is pretty solid choice after GA, it really depends though, if your team is looking to do more poke damage, another BT or LW is pretty solid choice. If your team is engaging more often, grab Randuins or Frznheart. Shurelya's is also a good choice on him if your team needs a 2nd shurelyas.
So I'm holding off on buying Jayce because I expect him to be nerfed and/or perma-banned in the near future, but in the time being I'm getting lots of experience laning against him.
My best match-ups so far have been with Jax and Swain.
Jax works because Leap Strike's cooldown is a bit lower than Thundering Blow, meaning you can WQauto (with R proc if you pre-hit a minion), get knocked away (if he doesn't knock you away then you'll outtrade him easy, just start Counter-Strike if he uses Hyper-Charge. As soon as Leap Strike cools you can jump on him again and for sure get in a full round of autos. Most Jayces will learn to back away at this point, but that just means you can farm safely and be much stronger late game.
Swain is much easier, just don't eat his speed Qs in the face and throw Torments at him on CD. He can't jump you because you'll fuck him up instantly and he can't harass safely (except with ranged Q) without being at risk of a WEQR combo.
On September 18 2012 09:17 Alzadar wrote: So I'm holding off on buying Jayce because I expect him to be nerfed and/or perma-banned in the near future, but in the time being I'm getting lots of experience laning against him.
My best match-ups so far have been with Jax and Swain.
Jax works because Leap Strike's cooldown is a bit lower than Thundering Blow, meaning you can WQauto (with R proc if you pre-hit a minion), get knocked away (if he doesn't knock you away then you'll outtrade him easy, just start Counter-Strike if he uses Hyper-Charge. As soon as Leap Strike cools you can jump on him again and for sure get in a full round of autos. Most Jayces will learn to back away at this point, but that just means you can farm safely and be much stronger late game.
Swain is much easier, just don't eat his speed Qs in the face and throw Torments at him on CD. He can't jump you because you'll fuck him up instantly and he can't harass safely (except with ranged Q) without being at risk of a WEQR combo.
Thoughts from the Jayce perspective?
Irelia and Jax both win if played properly in my experience.
On September 18 2012 05:02 gtrsrs wrote: so i finally picked up jayce and decided to play him a bit when i get top lane and in twisted treeline i've got the general skill order down (Q>W>E with a point of E early, don't touch R) and basic playstyle down. i still don't seem to be hitting as hard as opposing jayces though
do we have a definitive rune/mastery decision on jayce yet? currently running 21/9/0 with both 10%mpen and 10%arpen. runepage is a mix of AD and arpen (plus defensive yellows/blues). is this optimal? should i prioritize AD over arpen or vice versa?
as for playstyle, i've been sticking primarily in ranged. need to learn when to go melee and QE a bit better. is that the best way to trade as jayce? just melee QE ranged poke poke back off?
which part of triforce do i build first? been going phage first but ranged procs are pretty inconsequential. should i prioritize sheen? after TF BT GA, should i go more BTs or LW, or something else entirely?
After not playing for a bit, and then coming back, laning against jayce was...interesting.
He seems to do loads of damage, be able to jump on me/knock me back, as well as snipe from a screen away. I can't tell if he's overpowered, but he's certainly very flexible, looks like a lot of fun to play. Plus he has a massive hammer.
On September 18 2012 09:17 Alzadar wrote: So I'm holding off on buying Jayce because I expect him to be nerfed and/or perma-banned in the near future, but in the time being I'm getting lots of experience laning against him.
My best match-ups so far have been with Jax and Swain.
Jax works because Leap Strike's cooldown is a bit lower than Thundering Blow, meaning you can WQauto (with R proc if you pre-hit a minion), get knocked away (if he doesn't knock you away then you'll outtrade him easy, just start Counter-Strike if he uses Hyper-Charge. As soon as Leap Strike cools you can jump on him again and for sure get in a full round of autos. Most Jayces will learn to back away at this point, but that just means you can farm safely and be much stronger late game.
Swain is much easier, just don't eat his speed Qs in the face and throw Torments at him on CD. He can't jump you because you'll fuck him up instantly and he can't harass safely (except with ranged Q) without being at risk of a WEQR combo.
Thoughts from the Jayce perspective?
Irelia and Jax both win if played properly in my experience.
Mind sharing said experience? I still have no idea how to play Irelia against him, his disengage is simply too good and it's very hard to force prolonged trades against him, which is were Jax and Irelia would destroy him. Really curious about Jax too, he's stronger than Irelia in burst and committed fights post-6, but since his jump doesn't reset I'm not sure how you should be able to reach him if he's in cannon form.
On September 19 2012 01:19 Chexx wrote: What was the consens on jungle Jayce? I mean he has 3 AOE abilitys, manareg on hit, speedbuff, jump looks like a good jungler.
Kit seems fine, but it's really iffy in practice. Your AoE isn't as fast or spammable as someone like Skarner/Shy/Hec/Amumu, and your single target clearing isn't super fast. He also lacks any sort of health sustain (though I guess you could start Vamp and go Wriggle's, ugh), so he's not very safe.
He has some strengths, though. Decent ganks (slow and knockback, obviously), can do just damage ganks by running by and cannon EQ'ing someone for a bunch of health. He has great dueling, so you can catch people, especially the other jungler, by surprise and chunk them. If you get a point in W early, you also don't have to worry about Blue as much, so he's a bit more flexible in routes.
Overall, good for a "non-jungle-specified" jungler, average to ok as far as total junglers go. If you really want another ADC/bruiser on your team (your top is someone tanky like Singed or Malph, want more damage from the jungle), hes a decent pick, but not over someone like Jax, and I'd probably put Darius above him as far as straight Jungling goes.
On September 18 2012 09:17 Alzadar wrote: So I'm holding off on buying Jayce because I expect him to be nerfed and/or perma-banned in the near future, but in the time being I'm getting lots of experience laning against him.
My best match-ups so far have been with Jax and Swain.
Jax works because Leap Strike's cooldown is a bit lower than Thundering Blow, meaning you can WQauto (with R proc if you pre-hit a minion), get knocked away (if he doesn't knock you away then you'll outtrade him easy, just start Counter-Strike if he uses Hyper-Charge. As soon as Leap Strike cools you can jump on him again and for sure get in a full round of autos. Most Jayces will learn to back away at this point, but that just means you can farm safely and be much stronger late game.
Swain is much easier, just don't eat his speed Qs in the face and throw Torments at him on CD. He can't jump you because you'll fuck him up instantly and he can't harass safely (except with ranged Q) without being at risk of a WEQR combo.
Thoughts from the Jayce perspective?
Irelia and Jax both win if played properly in my experience.
Mind sharing said experience? I still have no idea how to play Irelia against him, his disengage is simply too good and it's very hard to force prolonged trades against him, which is were Jax and Irelia would destroy him. Really curious about Jax too, he's stronger than Irelia in burst and committed fights post-6, but since his jump doesn't reset I'm not sure how you should be able to reach him if he's in cannon form.
For Irelia, I guess wait til he's near a low minion. Jump to that/kill it for reset, jump back at him after knockback.
On September 19 2012 01:19 Chexx wrote: What was the consens on jungle Jayce? I mean he has 3 AOE abilitys, manareg on hit, speedbuff, jump looks like a good jungler.
Jungler Jayce overwhelmingly favors maxing W first, which makes your ganks pretty trivial early and your inital clears aren't so great. He seems far better top lane.
On September 19 2012 01:19 Chexx wrote: What was the consens on jungle Jayce? I mean he has 3 AOE abilitys, manareg on hit, speedbuff, jump looks like a good jungler.
Terrible. You have to max W first for clearing speed, but your ganking tools are Q and E (and limited at that).
On September 19 2012 01:19 Chexx wrote: What was the consens on jungle Jayce? I mean he has 3 AOE abilitys, manareg on hit, speedbuff, jump looks like a good jungler.
Terrible. You have to max W first for clearing speed, but your ganking tools are Q and E (and limited at that).
Well, one point in QE isn't terrible, since (hammer form anyway) you're only going to be able to use each once in a gank whether they're rank 1 or rank 5, the important part is that you get the slow and knockback. Cannon-W-empowered damage is not bad by a long shot, especially if you come in, slow/knockback, then auto-W-autoautoauto with a couple DBlades and/or a Phage.
That said, it's still bad compared to most junglers or his own laning. Feasible, but not something I'd do if I wanted to win.
On September 19 2012 01:19 Chexx wrote: What was the consens on jungle Jayce? I mean he has 3 AOE abilitys, manareg on hit, speedbuff, jump looks like a good jungler.
Terrible. You have to max W first for clearing speed, but your ganking tools are Q and E (and limited at that).
Well, one point in QE isn't terrible, since (hammer form anyway) you're only going to be able to use each once in a gank whether they're rank 1 or rank 5, the important part is that you get the slow and knockback. Cannon-W-empowered damage is not bad by a long shot, especially if you come in, slow/knockback, then auto-W-autoautoauto with a couple DBlades and/or a Phage.
That said, it's still bad compared to most junglers or his own laning. Feasible, but not something I'd do if I wanted to win.
So the problem is that by this standard most champions can jungle. Most champions have some sort of AOE ability that can be used as a clear, and at least one CC which can be used for ganks. Also Phage works on every single champion.
On September 18 2012 09:17 Alzadar wrote: So I'm holding off on buying Jayce because I expect him to be nerfed and/or perma-banned in the near future, but in the time being I'm getting lots of experience laning against him.
My best match-ups so far have been with Jax and Swain.
Jax works because Leap Strike's cooldown is a bit lower than Thundering Blow, meaning you can WQauto (with R proc if you pre-hit a minion), get knocked away (if he doesn't knock you away then you'll outtrade him easy, just start Counter-Strike if he uses Hyper-Charge. As soon as Leap Strike cools you can jump on him again and for sure get in a full round of autos. Most Jayces will learn to back away at this point, but that just means you can farm safely and be much stronger late game.
Swain is much easier, just don't eat his speed Qs in the face and throw Torments at him on CD. He can't jump you because you'll fuck him up instantly and he can't harass safely (except with ranged Q) without being at risk of a WEQR combo.
Thoughts from the Jayce perspective?
Irelia and Jax both win if played properly in my experience.
Mind sharing said experience? I still have no idea how to play Irelia against him, his disengage is simply too good and it's very hard to force prolonged trades against him, which is were Jax and Irelia would destroy him. Really curious about Jax too, he's stronger than Irelia in burst and committed fights post-6, but since his jump doesn't reset I'm not sure how you should be able to reach him if he's in cannon form.
the thing about jayce vs irelia in the early game is that whoever engages first, loses. If irelia goes onto jayce, jayce hammer + auto + q + e's you away, and you will lose the trade. If jayce goes onto irelia, irelia q's back the distance lost from jayce e, eq strike will prob stun, since you just got chunked, and then you get to smack jayce for a couple of seconds with true dmg until jayce can ranged-form + e out, and jayce loses the trade.
ofc, this is assuming good play on both sides, and irelia also has a lvl 2 vulnerability that she has to watch out for, where jayce can pound on her with no consequences. Later on in the game, irelia's innate and itemized tankiness + truedmg and aspeed means that irelia will, most likely, beat jayce in a 1v1 vaccum. This completely ignores jayce's team-utility ofc, which I think is much higher than irelia's, but it can be argued both ways as to which one you want late game.
On September 19 2012 01:19 Chexx wrote: What was the consens on jungle Jayce? I mean he has 3 AOE abilitys, manareg on hit, speedbuff, jump looks like a good jungler.
Terrible. You have to max W first for clearing speed, but your ganking tools are Q and E (and limited at that).
Well, one point in QE isn't terrible, since (hammer form anyway) you're only going to be able to use each once in a gank whether they're rank 1 or rank 5, the important part is that you get the slow and knockback. Cannon-W-empowered damage is not bad by a long shot, especially if you come in, slow/knockback, then auto-W-autoautoauto with a couple DBlades and/or a Phage.
That said, it's still bad compared to most junglers or his own laning. Feasible, but not something I'd do if I wanted to win.
So the problem is that by this standard most champions can jungle. Most champions have some sort of AOE ability that can be used as a clear, and at least one CC which can be used for ganks. Also Phage works on every single champion.
Right, in the new jungle you can jungle with most everyone. I'd just put Jayce on the higher side of "everyone that's not a viable jungler" because his base numbers are really good, he brings good utility even if he has no ganks and slow clear (accel gate is amazing), and as long as he can get E maxed out eventually, he really can build tanky shit like Aegis/Shurelia/FMallet from the jungle and be fine.
I'm not advocating him as a jungle, nor should you use that standard to say "this champ is a good jungler because x", but if you really want to make it work and your team lets you, there are worse champs you can put in there.
On September 19 2012 01:19 Chexx wrote: What was the consens on jungle Jayce? I mean he has 3 AOE abilitys, manareg on hit, speedbuff, jump looks like a good jungler.
Terrible. You have to max W first for clearing speed, but your ganking tools are Q and E (and limited at that).
Well, one point in QE isn't terrible, since (hammer form anyway) you're only going to be able to use each once in a gank whether they're rank 1 or rank 5, the important part is that you get the slow and knockback. Cannon-W-empowered damage is not bad by a long shot, especially if you come in, slow/knockback, then auto-W-autoautoauto with a couple DBlades and/or a Phage.
That said, it's still bad compared to most junglers or his own laning. Feasible, but not something I'd do if I wanted to win.
So the problem is that by this standard most champions can jungle. Most champions have some sort of AOE ability that can be used as a clear, and at least one CC which can be used for ganks. Also Phage works on every single champion.
Right, in the new jungle you can jungle with most everyone. I'd just put Jayce on the higher side of "everyone that's not a viable jungler" because his base numbers are really good, he brings good utility even if he has no ganks and slow clear (accel gate is amazing), and as long as he can get E maxed out eventually, he really can build tanky shit like Aegis/Shurelia/FMallet from the jungle and be fine.
I'm not advocating him as a jungle, nor should you use that standard to say "this champ is a good jungler because x", but if you really want to make it work and your team lets you, there are worse champs you can put in there.
Being one of the best non-viable junglers isn't really useful, you're still a non-viable jungler. It would be something else entirely if Jayce was a perfectly capable jungler who simply didn't fit the meta (e.g. Karthus, Akali, Jax, Tryndamere etc.), but his actual jungling is just bad.
On September 18 2012 09:17 Alzadar wrote: So I'm holding off on buying Jayce because I expect him to be nerfed and/or perma-banned in the near future, but in the time being I'm getting lots of experience laning against him.
My best match-ups so far have been with Jax and Swain.
Jax works because Leap Strike's cooldown is a bit lower than Thundering Blow, meaning you can WQauto (with R proc if you pre-hit a minion), get knocked away (if he doesn't knock you away then you'll outtrade him easy, just start Counter-Strike if he uses Hyper-Charge. As soon as Leap Strike cools you can jump on him again and for sure get in a full round of autos. Most Jayces will learn to back away at this point, but that just means you can farm safely and be much stronger late game.
Swain is much easier, just don't eat his speed Qs in the face and throw Torments at him on CD. He can't jump you because you'll fuck him up instantly and he can't harass safely (except with ranged Q) without being at risk of a WEQR combo.
Thoughts from the Jayce perspective?
Irelia and Jax both win if played properly in my experience.
Mind sharing said experience? I still have no idea how to play Irelia against him, his disengage is simply too good and it's very hard to force prolonged trades against him, which is were Jax and Irelia would destroy him. Really curious about Jax too, he's stronger than Irelia in burst and committed fights post-6, but since his jump doesn't reset I'm not sure how you should be able to reach him if he's in cannon form.
the thing about jayce vs irelia in the early game is that whoever engages first, loses. If irelia goes onto jayce, jayce hammer + auto + q + e's you away, and you will lose the trade. If jayce goes onto irelia, irelia q's back the distance lost from jayce e, eq strike will prob stun, since you just got chunked, and then you get to smack jayce for a couple of seconds with true dmg until jayce can ranged-form + e out, and jayce loses the trade.
ofc, this is assuming good play on both sides, and irelia also has a lvl 2 vulnerability that she has to watch out for, where jayce can pound on her with no consequences. Later on in the game, irelia's innate and itemized tankiness + truedmg and aspeed means that irelia will, most likely, beat jayce in a 1v1 vaccum. This completely ignores jayce's team-utility ofc, which I think is much higher than irelia's, but it can be argued both ways as to which one you want late game.
I noticed that if Jayce runs as soon as he Es you, the time it takes for you to be knocked back will allow him to get out of your Q range, so it depends on positioning too. How would you itemize? His E deals magic damage, and his auto/Q harass is physical, plus you need MS if you ever want to catch him, so... I guess armor quints, boots+3 start, and go for phage+MR (wit's)? Early tabi if needed.
I agree that you can't engage first as irelia - If Irelia is ever going to engage on Jayce first, she needs to do it by Qing onto a near-dead minion, so that she can jump back on Jayce after getting knocked back. Doing it any other way just gets you kicked off of him with only 1 or 2 W autos. If you can jump back onto him while your W is still up, you'll win the trade by a longshot. I've never been knocked back in such a way that I couldn't Q back onto him as long as my Q was up, but I'm willing to believe that it would work like that if the Jayce player animation cancels their [long ass] E animation in the way you describe.
Against Jayce I run with armor quints. Most of the damage you're going to take in lane is ranged auto harass, and even in serious trades it's going to be . His E (and technically his switch-to-melee single auto bonus... but that's like barely any damage and some Jayces don't evel level R) is his only magic damage, and it's on a longish CD, plus he's not building any magic pen. Flat MR glyphs + irelia's baseline should be enough for his E (already knocks it down to only 12% Max HP by the time you're both level 9) I don't even feel strongly about Wit's end vs Jayce... it depends on the rest of the teamcomp whether wits is useful. Phage -> triforce + tank items (significantly favoring armor items, like Randuins or GA) goes a long way to letting you trade properly with a mid-game Jayce as well as be relevant in midgame teamfights. Mercs is likely my only magic resist i'll have during lane phase, unless the enemy team lets me build tabi - in which case I'd agree wit's is great.
Did I mention that if Jayce uses his ranged W on you, he'll probably be snagged by warden's mail in the process? Wardens mail sleeper.
All that said, I still have a hard time against a good Jayce, and even if you can draw the lane even, Jayce's late game is scary because he pretends to be an AD carry in teamfights.
On September 19 2012 19:14 arb wrote: Man that mana nerf isnt even noticable, especially if you dont make E first. (which most guides and stuff say to max q anyway, which i gotta agree on)
On September 19 2012 19:14 arb wrote: Man that mana nerf isnt even noticable, especially if you dont make E first. (which most guides and stuff say to max q anyway, which i gotta agree on)
I literally haven't noticed they were live yet.
If you dont max E first the 80 mana comes at so late it doesnt even matter anymore
On September 19 2012 19:14 arb wrote: Man that mana nerf isnt even noticable, especially if you dont make E first. (which most guides and stuff say to max q anyway, which i gotta agree on)
I literally haven't noticed they were live yet.
If you dont max E first the 80 mana comes at so late it doesnt even matter anymore
A while a WoDx was doing CDR tank build with jayce, (mostly out of necessity, because his team was really squishy). I posted it GD, it went something like boots3pot, philo, hog, shurelya's. But he ended getting fed on top lane with just gp10 items against enemy irelia, and then went BT+Triforce+GA, but I was thinking what happens if you continue that build trend of cdr tank? It'd probably be something like shurelya's, randuins, aotl, and what else?
Randuin's doesn't give CDR if you're going for that, get FH instead. The only other CDR item I could see being useful on him is... maaaaybe Zeke's?
I dunno why you'd do any of that anyway. If you really want to play tanky Jayce, FMallet and GA is probably the best core, and then situational from there. CDR is great on him, but there's not enough items to make a build out of it,
Randuins gives like 5% cdr. And if I remember correctly he had built Ionian boots on jayce. so totaling out to 35% CDR, then 4% from masteries~
Shurelya's pretty good on him imo. With Fmallet seems to be over kill on HP along w/ shurelya's. Not to mention he does have strong gap closer. Speed boosts + dunkign mechanics makes Randuins a great pick. Why would you get GA on a utility build? not worth it? also considering how cheap tanky utility items are, this is possibly a decent build for games where you lost your lane terribly (though I don't really see how you could lose lane that badly, as Jayce).
You want HP over resists because you get free resists from being in hammer stance, so FM is one of the premier defensive items on him, in my opinion.
Still, seems like a silly build. Why do you need Shurelya sprint when you have stance change, Gate, and To The Skies? Why do you realistically need Randuins when you have strong sticking power and an AoE slow in the first place? Why are you building utility on a champion that is primarily there to be a damage dealer? If you lost your lane as Jayce (as you said, unlikely in the first place), I don't think the best thing to do is bring another speed boost on the one you already have, I think it's to farm (which you can do quickly and easily) and catch back up, not buy support items and pray your AD can pick up your slack.
Well the idea of utility tank is more for the sense that your team needs one in solo queue. WoDx was using it just because his team was pretty squishy otherwise. He may still get free resists, but you can make same arguement on Shyvanna, she still build Randuins fairly often. Shurelyas + Randuins is like 600hp, that's a lot. along with 75 armor, that's really strong.
Also with a gap closer (his hammer stance Q), randuins is particularly effective, the activate can almost always hit everyone in teamfights.
Its more of an alternative build.
Also it's unfair to match Bruiser/dmg jayce with utility tank jayce, 2 different roles.
On September 20 2012 03:21 Requizen wrote: Huh, there is. Never noticed.
You want HP over resists because you get free resists from being in hammer stance, so FM is one of the premier defensive items on him, in my opinion.
Still, seems like a silly build. Why do you need Shurelya sprint when you have stance change, Gate, and To The Skies? Why do you realistically need Randuins when you have strong sticking power and an AoE slow in the first place? Why are you building utility on a champion that is primarily there to be a damage dealer? If you lost your lane as Jayce (as you said, unlikely in the first place), I don't think the best thing to do is bring another speed boost on the one you already have, I think it's to farm (which you can do quickly and easily) and catch back up, not buy support items and pray your AD can pick up your slack.
Ugh. You don't really want HP over resists THAT badly. The "free resists" you get from Hammer Stance only roughly match up to what most melee characters get baseline. Level 18 jayce has 50 MR in hammer stance baseline... about the same as what most melees have from their natural MR scaling. He has 95 armor... BARELY edging out the upper ends of the armor line, but hardly anything to write home about. Shyvana (one who DOES follow this 'buy hp get free resists' a bit better) gets more armor, especially since she's going to teamfight in dragon form and double her +20 bonus resists to +40.
That said, I do like phage / mallet a lot on him, but the argument of 'get HP not resists' is full of holes.
TBH, I prefer just sitting on phage and building damage for a while.
On September 19 2012 19:14 arb wrote: Man that mana nerf isnt even noticable, especially if you dont make E first. (which most guides and stuff say to max q anyway, which i gotta agree on)
I literally haven't noticed they were live yet.
If you dont max E first the 80 mana comes at so late it doesnt even matter anymore
You DO need to max E first though...
Almost every guide ive read has been Q max first, its been working out quite nicely imo
On September 19 2012 19:14 arb wrote: Man that mana nerf isnt even noticable, especially if you dont make E first. (which most guides and stuff say to max q anyway, which i gotta agree on)
I literally haven't noticed they were live yet.
If you dont max E first the 80 mana comes at so late it doesnt even matter anymore
You DO need to max E first though...
Almost every guide ive read has been Q max first, its been working out quite nicely imo
On September 19 2012 19:14 arb wrote: Man that mana nerf isnt even noticable, especially if you dont make E first. (which most guides and stuff say to max q anyway, which i gotta agree on)
I literally haven't noticed they were live yet.
If you dont max E first the 80 mana comes at so late it doesnt even matter anymore
You DO need to max E first though...
Almost every guide ive read has been Q max first, its been working out quite nicely imo
Its E max, I use to think the same thing about Q max first. Too mana costly. It's the accepted fact that if you want to bully the shit out of lane, and always win trades. E is better max first, but of course there are times where Q max isn't bad.
On September 19 2012 19:14 arb wrote: Man that mana nerf isnt even noticable, especially if you dont make E first. (which most guides and stuff say to max q anyway, which i gotta agree on)
I literally haven't noticed they were live yet.
If you dont max E first the 80 mana comes at so late it doesnt even matter anymore
You DO need to max E first though...
Almost every guide ive read has been Q max first, its been working out quite nicely imo
Its E max, I use to think the same thing about Q max first. Too mana costly. It's the accepted fact that if you want to bully the shit out of lane, and always win trades. E is better max first, but of course there are times where Q max isn't bad.
With the looming E cost increase, do you think that will change things?
On September 19 2012 19:14 arb wrote: Man that mana nerf isnt even noticable, especially if you dont make E first. (which most guides and stuff say to max q anyway, which i gotta agree on)
I literally haven't noticed they were live yet.
If you dont max E first the 80 mana comes at so late it doesnt even matter anymore
You DO need to max E first though...
Almost every guide ive read has been Q max first, its been working out quite nicely imo
Its E max, I use to think the same thing about Q max first. Too mana costly. It's the accepted fact that if you want to bully the shit out of lane, and always win trades. E is better max first, but of course there are times where Q max isn't bad.
With the looming E cost increase, do you think that will change things?
It depends by how much. The only thing is it'll make Q a better choice in some lanes, but E just does too much damage not to ignore, especially against high health bruisers.
On September 20 2012 03:21 Requizen wrote: Huh, there is. Never noticed.
You want HP over resists because you get free resists from being in hammer stance, so FM is one of the premier defensive items on him, in my opinion.
Still, seems like a silly build. Why do you need Shurelya sprint when you have stance change, Gate, and To The Skies? Why do you realistically need Randuins when you have strong sticking power and an AoE slow in the first place? Why are you building utility on a champion that is primarily there to be a damage dealer? If you lost your lane as Jayce (as you said, unlikely in the first place), I don't think the best thing to do is bring another speed boost on the one you already have, I think it's to farm (which you can do quickly and easily) and catch back up, not buy support items and pray your AD can pick up your slack.
Ugh. You don't really want HP over resists THAT badly. The "free resists" you get from Hammer Stance only roughly match up to what most melee characters get baseline. Level 18 jayce has 50 MR in hammer stance baseline... about the same as what most melees have from their natural MR scaling. He has 95 armor... BARELY edging out the upper ends of the armor line, but hardly anything to write home about. Shyvana (one who DOES follow this 'buy hp get free resists' a bit better) gets more armor, especially since she's going to teamfight in dragon form and double her +20 bonus resists to +40.
That said, I do like phage / mallet a lot on him, but the argument of 'get HP not resists' is full of holes.
TBH, I prefer just sitting on phage and building damage for a while.
65 and 110.5 actually according to the stats on the wiki.
Seriously this hero is so broken lol. I've gone up like 200 Elo just from playing him and I didn't even figure out how to really play him until more than halfway through my total games on him.
I can only ever remember losing lane once (to a Singed that I got overaggressive on and got flung into tower for fb) and going even in lane twice (to an Irelia and a Lee Sin). He is almost like Yorick in lane with his sheer lane dominance except infinitely more useful after the laning phase.
I don't think number tweaks would fix him either, his whole kit concept just seems broken. A ranged form so you can bully melees/farm safely against other ranged, huge speed boosts to escape ganks/chase (not to mention it also benefits your whole team), one of the best long ranged pokes in the game which is also AoE and a great waveclear, a great gapcloser that also slows and a knockback that does % max health.
He basically just has an answer to everything you could throw at him. Against a burst caster like Pantheon? Jayce bursts just as hard but also adds utility and scaling. Against big sustained DPS like Darius? lol knockback. Against a strong ranged harasser like Kennen? np, I have a ranged form too. Against something tanky like Cho or Singed? Make their life hell with ranged form early and then smack them with % health damage.
I mean the only conventional tops I can see Jayce having a hard time against are Yorick, Kennen, a well played Irelia, and Lee Sin. Even then tbh he doesn't lose to any of those, he just doesn't dominate them like he does everyone else. If you get any kind of advantage against any of those early then you still shit all over them.
Seriously this hero is so broken lol. I've gone up like 200 Elo just from playing him and I didn't even figure out how to really play him until more than halfway through my total games on him.
I can only ever remember losing lane once (to a Singed that I got overaggressive on and got flung into tower for fb) and going even in lane twice (to an Irelia and a Lee Sin). He is almost like Yorick in lane with his sheer lane dominance except infinitely more useful after the laning phase.
I don't think number tweaks would fix him either, his whole kit concept just seems broken. A ranged form so you can bully melees/farm safely against other ranged, huge speed boosts to escape ganks/chase (not to mention it also benefits your whole team), one of the best long ranged pokes in the game which is also AoE and a great waveclear, a great gapcloser that also slows and a knockback that does % max health.
He basically just has an answer to everything you could throw at him. Against a burst caster like Pantheon? Jayce bursts just as hard but also adds utility and scaling. Against big sustained DPS like Darius? lol knockback. Against a strong ranged harasser like Kennen? np, I have a ranged form too. Against something tanky like Cho or Singed? Make their life hell with ranged form early and then smack them with % health damage.
I mean the only conventional tops I can see Jayce having a hard time against are Yorick, Kennen, a well played Irelia, and Lee Sin. Even then tbh he doesn't lose to any of those, he just doesn't dominate them like he does everyone else. If you get any kind of advantage against any of those early then you still shit all over them.
You realize that his overall skills are mediocre compared to other champs, who at least excel at something. He is only good at laning face. And almost useless in team fights, cant tank, does average damage, no cc, no support except small speed boost.
Seriously this hero is so broken lol. I've gone up like 200 Elo just from playing him and I didn't even figure out how to really play him until more than halfway through my total games on him.
I can only ever remember losing lane once (to a Singed that I got overaggressive on and got flung into tower for fb) and going even in lane twice (to an Irelia and a Lee Sin). He is almost like Yorick in lane with his sheer lane dominance except infinitely more useful after the laning phase.
I don't think number tweaks would fix him either, his whole kit concept just seems broken. A ranged form so you can bully melees/farm safely against other ranged, huge speed boosts to escape ganks/chase (not to mention it also benefits your whole team), one of the best long ranged pokes in the game which is also AoE and a great waveclear, a great gapcloser that also slows and a knockback that does % max health.
He basically just has an answer to everything you could throw at him. Against a burst caster like Pantheon? Jayce bursts just as hard but also adds utility and scaling. Against big sustained DPS like Darius? lol knockback. Against a strong ranged harasser like Kennen? np, I have a ranged form too. Against something tanky like Cho or Singed? Make their life hell with ranged form early and then smack them with % health damage.
I mean the only conventional tops I can see Jayce having a hard time against are Yorick, Kennen, a well played Irelia, and Lee Sin. Even then tbh he doesn't lose to any of those, he just doesn't dominate them like he does everyone else. If you get any kind of advantage against any of those early then you still shit all over them.
You realize that his overall skills are mediocre compared to other champs, who at least excel at something. He is only good at laning face. And almost useless in team fights, cant tank, does average damage, no cc, no support except small speed boost.
Seriously this hero is so broken lol. I've gone up like 200 Elo just from playing him and I didn't even figure out how to really play him until more than halfway through my total games on him.
I can only ever remember losing lane once (to a Singed that I got overaggressive on and got flung into tower for fb) and going even in lane twice (to an Irelia and a Lee Sin). He is almost like Yorick in lane with his sheer lane dominance except infinitely more useful after the laning phase.
I don't think number tweaks would fix him either, his whole kit concept just seems broken. A ranged form so you can bully melees/farm safely against other ranged, huge speed boosts to escape ganks/chase (not to mention it also benefits your whole team), one of the best long ranged pokes in the game which is also AoE and a great waveclear, a great gapcloser that also slows and a knockback that does % max health.
He basically just has an answer to everything you could throw at him. Against a burst caster like Pantheon? Jayce bursts just as hard but also adds utility and scaling. Against big sustained DPS like Darius? lol knockback. Against a strong ranged harasser like Kennen? np, I have a ranged form too. Against something tanky like Cho or Singed? Make their life hell with ranged form early and then smack them with % health damage.
I mean the only conventional tops I can see Jayce having a hard time against are Yorick, Kennen, a well played Irelia, and Lee Sin. Even then tbh he doesn't lose to any of those, he just doesn't dominate them like he does everyone else. If you get any kind of advantage against any of those early then you still shit all over them.
You realize that his overall skills are mediocre compared to other champs, who at least excel at something. He is only good at laning face. And almost useless in team fights, cant tank, does average damage, no cc, no support except small speed boost.
You don't really need that much damage. You just gate your Ashe then knock all those pesty bruisers from your Ashe so she can do damage.... and acquire Elo.
Seriously this hero is so broken lol. I've gone up like 200 Elo just from playing him and I didn't even figure out how to really play him until more than halfway through my total games on him.
I can only ever remember losing lane once (to a Singed that I got overaggressive on and got flung into tower for fb) and going even in lane twice (to an Irelia and a Lee Sin). He is almost like Yorick in lane with his sheer lane dominance except infinitely more useful after the laning phase.
I don't think number tweaks would fix him either, his whole kit concept just seems broken. A ranged form so you can bully melees/farm safely against other ranged, huge speed boosts to escape ganks/chase (not to mention it also benefits your whole team), one of the best long ranged pokes in the game which is also AoE and a great waveclear, a great gapcloser that also slows and a knockback that does % max health.
He basically just has an answer to everything you could throw at him. Against a burst caster like Pantheon? Jayce bursts just as hard but also adds utility and scaling. Against big sustained DPS like Darius? lol knockback. Against a strong ranged harasser like Kennen? np, I have a ranged form too. Against something tanky like Cho or Singed? Make their life hell with ranged form early and then smack them with % health damage.
I mean the only conventional tops I can see Jayce having a hard time against are Yorick, Kennen, a well played Irelia, and Lee Sin. Even then tbh he doesn't lose to any of those, he just doesn't dominate them like he does everyone else. If you get any kind of advantage against any of those early then you still shit all over them.
Oh a number tweak would work, it would work great. EVERYTHING can be made underpowered by a numbers nerf(say a massive ratio nerf of his E). Its only a game design issue of whether you want to nerf numbers or if you want to readjust skills.
Question: Supposing I want to play a lot of one champ, love toolboxy things in other games and can take the losses, grab Jayce y/n? I'm guessing y, but I'm a pretty horrid player, is low skill Jayce even playable? Just thinking of trying to stick to one guy a decent amount to ease the information overload a bit. Plus he's a toolbox
In my personal opinion Jayce is one of the easiest top laner to pick up. You just need to know how to press Q + E and kite to play at an acceptable level.
On October 01 2012 14:07 GhandiEAGLE wrote: First ranked game with Jayce: 31/10 with a quadra, 2 triples, and thre double kills. I think I found a solo top thats almost as broken as KhaZix
I'd be interested against what char that was
So far the worst laning phase for me was against rengar. It was a high elo player pubstomping (2k wins) and he drubbed me so hard that i went 2/7 in lane. After that he was kind enough to go roaming and kill the rest of my team, and letting me farm up, but still I have literally no idea what i could have done (except something like "sit under tower for the entire game"), because our jungler fed him even worse than I did (he engaged 1on1 3 times while I was already back in base, or dead in 1 case).
So while I still enjoy jayce top a lot, rengar needs either more practice or a different playstyle.
To those who ask what the problem was, the basic problem was that he positioned himself in such a way that E knockbacks hit him back into the highgrass, which meant he was almost instantly back on top of me. Coupled with a first blood start due to an invade I got rolled.
Completly different question: against agressive junglers do you ward the tribush (your own) the baron or the bushes at the river? So far i had some success with warding the baron area, but it feels as if i loose a ton of time in lane while keeping that ward up.
On October 01 2012 14:07 GhandiEAGLE wrote: First ranked game with Jayce: 31/10 with a quadra, 2 triples, and thre double kills. I think I found a solo top thats almost as broken as KhaZix
I'd be interested against what char that was
So far the worst laning phase for me was against rengar. It was a high elo player pubstomping (2k wins) and he drubbed me so hard that i went 2/7 in lane. After that he was kind enough to go roaming and kill the rest of my team, and letting me farm up, but still I have literally no idea what i could have done (except something like "sit under tower for the entire game"), because our jungler fed him even worse than I did (he engaged 1on1 3 times while I was already back in base, or dead in 1 case).
So while I still enjoy jayce top a lot, rengar needs either more practice or a different playstyle.
To those who ask what the problem was, the basic problem was that he positioned himself in such a way that E knockbacks hit him back into the highgrass, which meant he was almost instantly back on top of me. Coupled with a first blood start due to an invade I got rolled.
Completly different question: against agressive junglers do you ward the tribush (your own) the baron or the bushes at the river? So far i had some success with warding the baron area, but it feels as if i loose a ton of time in lane while keeping that ward up.
Ward position highly depends on what side you're playing and what jungler they're using.
If you're purple side warding the baron area is nice, but if you have fast enough reaction warding the river bush or just outside that bush can be enough. However, against junglers that you need advance notice from like Shaco/Rammus and/or if you're playing a champ that pushes really hard, you should place your ward a bit further out; near baron pit is good.
If you're blue side you can ward near baron pit, but doing so allows the enemy jungler to sneak in through their tribush for a lane gank or river gank. I personally prefer to ward their tribush.
On February 12 2013 05:19 Requizen wrote: Sadly, I don't think Jayce is nearly as strong nowadays. He can't really play the whole "build tanky and be a threat" as he could before the E nerf, and building damage on him doesn't feel as strong as it used to now that everyone has a Warmog's or more.
He's still quite strong, just not the same lane bully he was before. More of a niche pick now, best for a dedicated poke comp with someone like AP nidalee.
New Tear helps him a lot. I sucks because you sacrifice some damage, but it makes it so you don't OOM when poking with QE combo.
Really? I guess on Cannon W and Hammer E it's nice for the combo, but idk if he'd make as much use out of muramana as other champions.
What kind of build do you go on him nowadays? I used to do things like BT + FMallet or TF + Warmogs back when he was released and OP as shit, but I'm just not sure anymore.
The typical builds we've seen in tournament games lately go Tear -> Bruta -> BT -> Muramana then w/e. Q/E becomes godly and can be done forever. You don't need to max E anymore, but Q is incredible for damage/poke.
I feel like just BC's health component isn't enough in a meta where bruisers (especially top laners) are expected to be pretty damn tanky. And that's assuming you finish BC at some point and don't just sit on Bruta.
On February 12 2013 05:19 Requizen wrote: Sadly, I don't think Jayce is nearly as strong nowadays. He can't really play the whole "build tanky and be a threat" as he could before the E nerf, and building damage on him doesn't feel as strong as it used to now that everyone has a Warmog's or more.
He's still quite strong, just not the same lane bully he was before. More of a niche pick now, best for a dedicated poke comp with someone like AP nidalee.
New Tear helps him a lot. I sucks because you sacrifice some damage, but it makes it so you don't OOM when poking with QE combo.
Really? I guess on Cannon W and Hammer E it's nice for the combo, but idk if he'd make as much use out of muramana as other champions.
What kind of build do you go on him nowadays? I used to do things like BT + FMallet or TF + Warmogs back when he was released and OP as shit, but I'm just not sure anymore.
The typical builds we've seen in tournament games lately go Tear -> Bruta -> BT -> Muramana then w/e. Q/E becomes godly and can be done forever. You don't need to max E anymore, but Q is incredible for damage/poke.
I feel like just BC's health component isn't enough in a meta where bruisers (especially top laners) are expected to be pretty damn tanky. And that's assuming you finish BC at some point and don't just sit on Bruta.
Well the other thing is that I've mostly seen him played mid lately. Perhaps that changes your perspective on how the build shakes out. I still think a Warmogs is probably core eventually, just LATE core.
Edit: Also, how did I not find this thread when I looked earlier? Reading OP.
Edit 2: Oh, LOL, because it's not in Strategy. Neo pls.
Yeah, Tear makes his laning phase much more manageable since mana is less of an issue, and then makes his late game poke absurd. Muramana doesn't need to be rushed or anything. The build Asmo described is pretty accurate in terms of when we've seen him in pro play. The goal of Tear on Jayce is different than on Ryze, it's more for the mana utility than the extra Toggle damage. Muramana is just a nice bonus since you can build it without having to sell back your Tear and you get to keep the extra mana.
On February 12 2013 05:19 Requizen wrote: Sadly, I don't think Jayce is nearly as strong nowadays. He can't really play the whole "build tanky and be a threat" as he could before the E nerf, and building damage on him doesn't feel as strong as it used to now that everyone has a Warmog's or more.
He's still quite strong, just not the same lane bully he was before. More of a niche pick now, best for a dedicated poke comp with someone like AP nidalee.
New Tear helps him a lot. I sucks because you sacrifice some damage, but it makes it so you don't OOM when poking with QE combo.
Really? I guess on Cannon W and Hammer E it's nice for the combo, but idk if he'd make as much use out of muramana as other champions.
What kind of build do you go on him nowadays? I used to do things like BT + FMallet or TF + Warmogs back when he was released and OP as shit, but I'm just not sure anymore.
The typical builds we've seen in tournament games lately go Tear -> Bruta -> BT -> Muramana then w/e. Q/E becomes godly and can be done forever. You don't need to max E anymore, but Q is incredible for damage/poke.
I feel like just BC's health component isn't enough in a meta where bruisers (especially top laners) are expected to be pretty damn tanky. And that's assuming you finish BC at some point and don't just sit on Bruta.
I think the whole point of the build is to be a pseudo adc/poke/bodyguard for the adc when it comes to teamfights. The 35 resists from hammer form aren't anything to sneeze at either.
Jayce is really tanky for someone who does as much damage as he does and has the same type of range that he does.
My Jayce build is usually tear -> brut -> bt -> lw -> muramana -> warmogs because by the time i have enough gold to get manamune my tear stack are only something like 2/3rd of the way there. Muramana is great on him as well because in a full on engage you should be autoattacking a lot even without Cannon W. I donno I think he's a really great midlaner because he does well versus assassins (Khazix, Talon) versus traditional ap carries (Ryze, Ahri, Orianna etc) and those wonky ap midlaners like Kayle and Nidalee. He shoves incredibly hard and roams extremely well, i lub him
Hm, good points all around. I guess I'll try Tear on him when I get a chance. He doesn't seem to be the fastest stacker for it, so I assume it's for the regen in lane -> manapool late game when it comes to poking? Maybe it's because I don't have a huge mana pool, but I rarely find myself spamming spells in lane as much as Yorick/Ryze/Cass, your traditional Tear builders.
On February 12 2013 06:45 Requizen wrote: Hm, good points all around. I guess I'll try Tear on him when I get a chance. He doesn't seem to be the fastest stacker for it, so I assume it's for the regen in lane -> manapool late game when it comes to poking? Maybe it's because I don't have a huge mana pool, but I rarely find myself spamming spells in lane as much as Yorick/Ryze/Cass, your traditional Tear builders.
Shifting forms, putting down gate to move around map are what stacks it up the most imo. At base you can also use Hammer W and all 3 cannon spells for free to give some stacks~
In my ranked team, my jungler mains Lee and I main Jayce, while my mid mains Cho. The freedom to whore blue is the best feeling in the world, I almost always carry my team xD
Weird thought: SotD on Jayce filling an AD carry role on a team? The active seems to fit his engage/disengage playstyle - his base AS is so low that AS items don't really work well on him, so the opportunity cost of popping the active is a lot lower. A lot of his utility comes from the poke style of play, so he favors setups where he can disengage easily. It *is* paying a lot for the active, but it might be worth it for tower sieges in a comp where he's the pseudo-ADC.
What I have seen these days is that people are relying more on Jayce's W in cannon form. Froggen played Jayce to great effect during LCS last week, where he was able to push a middle turret in 4 minutes as Jayce. His W does a great deal of extra burst damage, and unlike a lot of abilities in this game, works 100% on turrets.
He has always been a great turret pusher since his release, but his Q/E were so broken that many players would skip W until every other skill was maxed. Nowadays I feel many players have found a new role for Jayce.
I watched the game, but I didn't notice, do you mean max W first or second? I've taken to maxing in 2nd, right after Q, when I'm against a tanky dude in the top lane. This provides me with more pushing power, more sustained damage (I think), and a way to replenish mana, which leads to even more pushing and damage.
idk I always go poke glass cannon jayce with manamune lw bt bc mercs or cdr boots and ga or whatever else. always q and e depending on the lane or if its some bruiser stacking health and armor e is really good vs that.
On February 12 2013 14:11 soverelgne wrote: I watched the game, but I didn't notice, do you mean max W first or second? I've taken to maxing in 2nd, right after Q, when I'm against a tanky dude in the top lane. This provides me with more pushing power, more sustained damage (I think), and a way to replenish mana, which leads to even more pushing and damage.
He maxed Q first.
The thing is there was a time when no one even bothered to put points into W, because E costed like no mana at all.
I know people don't agree with Tank Jayce but if you were to do it would you get something like sunfire? For the clear speed and such? Or would a hybrid AD defence item provide more damage/clear?
I'm such a shitty Jayce TT. I just had a game where my jungler fed me an assist and I could push to tower so rumble lost cs, and every trade I'd hit all my spells, but Rumble does so much damage I went even anyways. Rumble's Q, E (once I go melee) do almost as much damage as my combo, and then his shield blocks more damage than my level 1 skills do when you factor in armor/mr. So I go even, then my skills are done, and he walks back and I walk back.
But he'd usually win fights with almost a sliver of life left. Overall I felt I could go even, but then later on, he had a better ult for teamfights. I'd try to walk out of it every time but even 2 seconds of ticks was like 40% of my life. If there are champions that have as good of a laning phase as Jayce while also being better late game then where is Jayce's advantage? I guess he's good at supporting ganks and playing from behind but that's not really optimal.
XSpecial plays Jayce a lot better than me, he used the most of his W in hammer form. But he also had ganks that gave him the kill whereas I mainly got assists. And he maxed E. He was just like "Screw damage efficiency for skill points, if I can knock him away and he can't hit me once, I'll still win the trade."
I think with Jayce you always have to follow through with your trades. Like you use your ranged EQW, then have to change to hammer, QW, and then E only as W runs out. He doesn't have as much hard cc or any really strong shields so that's a good bet of his for winning trades. Missing QE in ranged runs him out of mana.
The other option, and one popular before the E mana nerfs, was just to use hammer form Q, and then E before your enemy had any chance to respond with their own trades. You can get away from a lot of enemies with QE. You also have to stay out of your enemy's range afterwards to prevent retaliation while your skills are on cd. This gives them time to push with impunity. I don't like maxing E though either first or second.
Once you know how to win trades as Jayce while not running out of mana, you'll start winning your lane. You'll never get as strong as an AD carry late game,but you don't need to unless you're going up against AD carries top.
As far as builds go, Jayce has very few defensive steroids but he has a lot of base damage. Theoretically he would make a decent tank. In my experience though, tank Jayce's base damage is worthless. What's more important is what utility he provides. Jayce has a slow, knockback, and team speed boost. It's decent utility, but unless his ranged form E is letting his team initiate fights, or the knockback's saving a carry, or punting an enemy carry to your team, it's not game winning utility.
He also has somewhere near a 7.0 AD ratio on his full combo when you add his ranged form W on 0 additional attack speed. So you can build him for damage too. I don't think he gets near the damage of an AD carry but he is still pretty scary. It's not game winning safety and damage but it's decent.
so if you watched OGN this week you saw there is this new trend in korea where you rush Manamune, I mean to say your typical NA poke comp jayce build is
Tear > Bruta > BT > LW/Manamune(depending on stacks) > whichever you didn't get last
well in OGN this week, they would go
Tear > Manamune NO MATTER WHAT > Bruta > LW > BT
with the reduced cooldown on tear charges as well as spamming stance change on the way to lane, Flame was able to get a 14 min Muramana after starting in a 1v2 lane. I've been experimenting with this in my games, in a 1v1 lane I typically first back with enough to buy the tear and the longsword at the same time, so I could in theory stack it faster, doing this then spamming moves to stack the tear, I've been able to get 16-18 min Muramanas on a pretty regular basis and in a couple of cases had money to combine and get bruta on 2nd back.
The point here is this, the power curve on this at least to me feels so much smoother than sitting on a tear with 0 damage while making a BF sword, it's pretty difficult to get your mana regen, damage, and pen done by 20 min with the BT build, because you are using 2 different items for Damage and Regen, with this build 20 min for all 3 is standard, and because of the extra power from this build you can usually convert this huge power spike into the last two items very quickly.
HIghly recommended, I really like this new way to build him (albeit mostly the same)
On April 22 2013 05:26 GhandiEAGLE wrote: Has Trinity Force totally died on Jayce? It was great before his big nerf, haven't tested since.
Trinity gives too much stuff that Jayce doesn't need IMO. Crit, ASPD, AP.
Sheen and Phage procs are nice I suppose, but Jayce already has ways to slow people. I don't think the Sheen procs actually add that much damage.
As for the new Muramana rush build, I actually didn't know about that as I don't have any ways to watch OGN. Does anyone know the skill orders that Koreans are using? I'm assuming it would be QEQW and then Q->W->E->R, it would make him a complete god in mid-game engages.
It's pretty solid. You get the Brutalizer if you aren't getting blues. The reason you don't rush CDR boots is if you are going to get a Brutalizer, you want to finish manamune before buying CDR boots or it delays it too long. If you are rushing Manamune with no Brut, you can get the CDR boots before manamune. If you get a Brutalizer early you can finish the Black Cleaver after a vamp or even before a vamp if you want too, if you didn't get an early brut I like to get my full BT before I even worry about Black Cleaver.
Skill order is QEQEQW then max Q>E>W and take 3 levels of R at 16/17//18. Works for top or mid, just usually at top lane you have to get the Brut and delay manamune and CDR boots while at mid you can get manamune and CDR boots faster and black cleaver later since you will max CDR with blue buff without needing a brutalizer.
On April 29 2013 09:08 Complete wrote: Why would you rush spirit of elder lizard in lane?
Because it is completely cost effective without the butcher passive and every stat that it gives to Jayce is awesome for him and only available together in that item? And then add free true damage...
Are people still doubting the viability of elder lizard and spectral wraith in lane? I didn't know this was still a question, as both are more than cost effective even without the butcher passive and offer unique stat combinations that are perfect for a variety of champions. There's a reason players are getting both items from OGN all the way thru LCS.
On April 29 2013 09:08 Complete wrote: Why would you rush spirit of elder lizard in lane?
Because it is completely cost effective without the butcher passive and every stat that it gives to Jayce is awesome for him and only available together in that item? And then add free true damage...
Are people still doubting the viability of elder lizard and spectral wraith in lane? I didn't know this was still a question, as both are more than cost effective even without the butcher passive and offer unique stat combinations that are perfect for a variety of champions. There's a reason players are getting both items from OGN all the way thru LCS.
Those who question elder lizard in lane must be the same people who think laundry listing a champion's abilities is an argument for (im)balance. Screw logic; intuition is too strong I guess.
Lizard elder should probably be rushed on anyone who has mana and likes black cleaver, as the amount of free stats is ridiculous and the combination of health/mana regen + ad + cdr is perfect for laning. Kha, panth, talon, jayce and wukong are among the best users.
Can you explain to me the idea behind not taking points in R until 16/17/18? Is the first shot reduction and extra armor/mr not as good as damage in your opinion?
I do think it would be an interesting buy on Jayce. Although I have to disagree that black cleaver isn't good on jayce as anything but a 6th item
On April 29 2013 19:04 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: Can you explain to me the idea behind not taking points in R until 16/17/18? Is the first shot reduction and extra armor/mr not as good as damage in your opinion?
I'm not the person you're asking but my most played champion is Jayce in ranked SO:
Simply put, it's just not as good as the other options. Look at the stats you gain from leveling every other ability, and then look at R. The % shred isn't as useful in the earlier stages in the game as it is in the later stages.
On April 29 2013 19:04 Dusty wrote: I do think it would be an interesting buy on Jayce. Although I have to disagree that black cleaver isn't good on jayce as anything but a 6th item
On April 29 2013 19:04 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: Can you explain to me the idea behind not taking points in R until 16/17/18? Is the first shot reduction and extra armor/mr not as good as damage in your opinion?
I'm not the person you're asking but my most played champion is Jayce in ranked SO:
Simply put, it's just not as good as the other options. Look at the stats you gain from leveling every other ability, and then look at R. The % shred isn't as useful in the earlier stages in the game as it is in the later stages.
I just think having a core of Elder Lizard/Last Whisper/Muramana/CDR Boots is more important than a BC. After that it's pretty situational between Black Cleaver/BT/Maw/GA, maybe one or two other specialty items. It's definitely not bad on Jayce, and I used to buy Brutalizer and therefore BC more frequently, but after I started getting Elder Lizard I found less use for BC.
I'm just in love with Elder Lizard as opposed to BC. Elder Lizard has the same gold efficiency for 1000 gold less (and I actually prefer the regen to 200hp, although you can debate that depending on the situation), with the tradeoff being a true damage passive vs the armor debuff passive of BC (which for me, often ends up being more dmg from the burn over the course of the game when I think about how much single pokes I do).
EDIT: All that being said, I usually do get BC if I'm the top laner to maximize my CDR and be able to be a bit tankier midgame/deal a bit more damage to the other top laner. I really just don't like it mid, where I usually get blue buff to cap my CDR and am not fighting people with armor till a point where LW is way more effective anyways (and I'm not expected to be tanky at all).
I just got Jayce because he looks cool and has skillshots and transforms, and I like all the other transforming champs.
It looks like people either go Q>E>W, or Q>W>E. What are the advantages and purpose of each? I mean Q>E>W looks like the pokey build, is Q>W>E more of a brawler thing?
Also Korean players level his ult normally, but NA never do....hmmmm
On May 02 2013 16:03 sob3k wrote: I just got Jayce because he looks cool and has skillshots and transforms, and I like all the other transforming champs.
It looks like people either go Q>E>W, or Q>W>E. What are the advantages and purpose of each? I mean Q>E>W looks like the pokey build, is Q>W>E more of a brawler thing?
Also Korean players level his ult normally, but NA never do....hmmmm
Advantage of E is trading, advantage of W is taking towers.
On May 09 2013 15:03 Lmui wrote: With the nerf to fort pots, what has everyone been doing?
I've been personally going faerie charm + 5 health+ward+mana pot
If you can shove the lane out hard early on, you can get a really early tear and consequently, really early muramana.
yea this is what I start, Muramune rush trumps all other builds until there is a balance change IMO, the damage you get from the active combined with your W is just insane @16-20 min.
On May 09 2013 15:03 Lmui wrote: With the nerf to fort pots, what has everyone been doing?
I've been personally going faerie charm + 5 health+ward+mana pot
If you can shove the lane out hard early on, you can get a really early tear and consequently, really early muramana.
yea this is what I start, Muramune rush trumps all other builds until there is a balance change IMO, the damage you get from the active combined with your W is just insane @16-20 min.
(except I usually go 4/2 on pots)
If your jungler starts blue on purple/red on blue, you can stay in base for another pot since with the speedboost from R you can get to lane without losing creeps.
This allows for a 5/2 start or a 4/3, both of which allow you to be rather abusive in lane.
On July 13 2013 10:17 Icysoul wrote: not sure if posted, but here's the changes coming to jayce in the pbe presented by Xypherous himself + Show Spoiler +
Passive Statistics Shifting around his statistics to favor mana regeneration as Jayce should be more of an active laner focused around spells to achieve victory. The shift in regeneration should also compensate for the removal of Mana on Hit from Static Field.
HP/5 reduced to 5 from 7 HP/5 per Level reduced to 0.5 from 0.7
MP/5 increased to 10 from 7 MP/5 per level increased to 1.0 from 0.7
Jayce may no longer level Transform but his abilities have 6 ranks.
Hextech Capacitor
Moved a portion of his transform passives onto his character passive. Additionally, Hextech Capacitor is weak at character levels 1-3 but stronger at 6 and 9 to smooth out power differences between the fact that he has multi-form abilities and no ultimate.
* Now additionally grants 5 to 130 magic damage for the first attack after transformation, based on character level.
To the Skies! To the Skies! had some early game spike power and late game spike power. Normalizing this curve such that you don't have to stack a ton of early Attack Damage or a ton of late Penetration in order to utilize this ability effectively for burst.
* Mana Cost fixed at 30 at all ranks from 40/50/60/70/80 * Damage rescaled to 25/75/125/175/225/275 (+0.6 Bonus) physical damage from 20/65/110/155/200 (+1.0 Bonus) physical damage
Static Field
Static Field should encourage Jayce to stay in Hammer form and engage on his opponents for prolonged periods of time while his Cannon Transform is unavailable.
Also experimenting with a W -> R -> W swap combo - though the current gameplay is a little unintuitive.
* Passive mana gain on-hit removed. * Damage rescaled to 60/110/160/210/260/310 (+1) from 100/170/240/310/380 (+1)
* Basic Attacks during static field now deal an additional 10/15/20/25/30/35 (+0.2) magic damage on hit. Numbers even more highly experimental and subject to change on this one. * Cooldown rescaled to 13/12/11/10/9/8 from 10
Thundering Blow
Thundering Blow in top lane was often Jayce's easy-mode button. If Jayce was in a bad spot - he could simply Thundering Blow to escape. Aggressively gating the Mana Cost on this ability means that eventually, Jayce's second chances will run out.
However, we wanted to preserve Jayce's engagement pattern if he chooses to be active - hence the To the Skies! Mana changes.
* Mana cost fixed at 85 from 40/50/60/70/80 * Now has a rank 6 that deals 23% health damage and up to 700 magic damage versus minions.
Transform: Mercury Hammer
* Now grants 5 to 35 Armor and Magic Resistance, based on character level.
Shock Blast
Changes here are mostly to increase the dodgability of Shock Blast, especially from fog of war + acceleration gate circumstances.
The acceleration of gate also favors using E after launching Q - as this will give the opponent the smallest amount of time to react.
* Damage rescaled to 60/105/150/195/240/285 (+1.2 Bonus) from 60/115/170/225/280 (+1.2 Bonus) - Probably needs to be scaled up a tad. * Missile Speed increased to 1450 from 1350
* Missile Width decreased to 50 from 60. * Missile Area of Effect decreased to 160 from 175
* Accelerated Missile Width remains at 60. * Accelerated Missile Area of Effect decreased to 225 from 250 * Accelerated Shock Blast initial speed increased to 2550 from 2350 * Accelerated Shock blast now decays down to 1550 during flight
Hyper Charge
Hyper Charge harass becomes more dominating depending on the rank of the spell in a lot of cases. Early ranks of Hyper Charge tend to be less than mana efficient in a lot of ways. These changes are designed to reduce some of obtuse abuse cases of Hyper Charge with IE or priming the skill but to also make Hyper Charge's cost roughly equivalent to its effect.
* Damage reduced to 70/80/90/100/110/120% from 70/85/100/115/130% * Critical strikes now simply add 100% of your total AD to the damage (this can be further modified by critical strike damage) rather than being dependent on the rank of the skill.
* Cooldown rescaled to 14/12/10/8/6/4 from 14/12/10/8/6 * Cooldown now begins when Hyper Charge is fully consumed
* Mana Cost rescaled to 30/38/46/54/62/70 from 40
Acceleration Gate
Jayce brings Acceleration Gate as his primary team utility. The Jayce player should feel confident that his team contribution shouldn't be necessarily gated by his playstyle or what he is forced to build. The cooldown nerfs in 3.9 should control Gate''s spamminess and uptime - and thus the Mana Cost here seems to be unnecessarily restricting him to Mana intensive builds.
* Mana Cost reduced to 20 from 50 * Has a 6th rank that increases Movement Speed by 55%.
Transform: Mercury Cannon This proc effect was mostly unnecessary - while it ensured Jayce made it to late game, the combined effect of the proc means that Jayce effectively ignored far too much of his opponent's armor than was healthy.
* No longer has an armor and magic resist reducing proc.
Much needed jayce nerfs: mostly manipulated mana costs around in hammer form, with a moderate nerf on poke and small nerf on hyper charge. Need to see how his poke is affected by the speed decrease before making a final judgement on usability.
I want to focus on Jayce's new hypercharge changes.
I was never very good at using Manamune since I'm significantly slower at turning it into a muramana than pros are. In addition, getting a tear first makes you very weak early on so that if your enemy laner gets 2 dorans you have to play safe or you'll lose every trade and later die.
Pros don't need to be strong early on, but at my level people are impatient and games are often decided around the time people get their first big items.
One thing I liked on Jayce was IE. It was one of my more favorite builds and I felt it gave me more control over how teamfights went than tank Jayce provided (another weird build I did).
Anyways as it turns out Jayce loses a lot of damage from the change on his W in the use case I did and he has to spend an extra skill point on Q W and E. He loses 25% of his W damage in my use case, and loses 12% of the damage on Q due to armor shred (not shown). He loses 100 damage going from 403 to 303 damage in my use case on his W.
I don't play Jayce anymore (yay!) but I was thinking of returning to try him again as he's quite fun and I've potentially been unlucky with him. If these changes go through I will not even consider playing Jayce again until he's rebuffed.
nvm.. there's a lot of things I haven't factored in. I don't know how the Jayce changes will work out for Jayce.
even with the current nerfs I don't really like him anymore. the tear nerf added on like ~7-10 min to stacking it and if you don't have blue buff the wait between shockblasts is excruciating. Not trying to wine nerfs were deserved and I think he's still situationally good, but he's not very fun anymore.
On July 14 2013 02:31 Slusher wrote: even with the current nerfs I don't really like him anymore. the tear nerf added on like ~7-10 min to stacking it and if you don't have blue buff the wait between shockblasts is excruciating. Not trying to wine nerfs were deserved and I think he's still situationally good, but he's not very fun anymore.
That's the real loss here. I wish every champ would be brought to old Jayce levels. The game would be so much more fun. More chaotic and twitchy, but more fun.
On July 14 2013 02:31 Slusher wrote: even with the current nerfs I don't really like him anymore. the tear nerf added on like ~7-10 min to stacking it and if you don't have blue buff the wait between shockblasts is excruciating. Not trying to wine nerfs were deserved and I think he's still situationally good, but he's not very fun anymore.
That's the real loss here. I wish every champ would be brought to old Jayce levels. The game would be so much more fun. More chaotic and twitchy, but more fun.
well Tear was straight up not ok, you could one shot people with it and it was pretty hard to slow it down, it's super cheap and stacking it the old way was unpreventable. I hadn't really thought at all about the nerf just that I thought it was enough on paper, after playing it a bunch I hadn't realized how bad Jayce is at actually stacking tear when you take transform away, 2 of his moves in hammer form require a target, and gate has a super long cooldown now.
don't mistake this for me being upset about how "bad" Jayce is now, I mostly upset about the rework, I think this version of him is significantly less dangerous, requires blue buff late game and is only situationally strong, but I just think so many people are ready to never see Jayce again that they don't care, just look at the official riot rework thread, they are nerfing the shit out of him and the third question is why aren't you nerfing him more.
On July 14 2013 02:31 Slusher wrote: even with the current nerfs I don't really like him anymore. the tear nerf added on like ~7-10 min to stacking it and if you don't have blue buff the wait between shockblasts is excruciating. Not trying to wine nerfs were deserved and I think he's still situationally good, but he's not very fun anymore.
That's the real loss here. I wish every champ would be brought to old Jayce levels. The game would be so much more fun. More chaotic and twitchy, but more fun.
On ARAM I've 100% given up on tear, I buy a chalice and don't build it into anything. >_> I admit I haven't even dared try picking Jayce in a real game since the nerf :/
Even Muramana is really slow at stacking, 2 stack/8 sec is still quite slow.
So, after actually playing a few games on Jayce since the nerfs and I must say I can't notice the nerfs all that much.
I still buy the tear first before anything else and then I try to rush to get a Manamune as fast as possible so that my auto attacks also stack the tear. The key with Jayce after the nerf is to always be hitting abilities like W, E, Q in Cannon form and also to switch to Hammer form and hit W for another stack. Don't hit them like instantly after one another once you use an ability pay attention to the tear and see if its on CD after you use that first ability and if its not then thats when you can hit another ability basically instantly after the first. You can sometimes do that 2 times if the tear isn't on CD after the first ability but never 3 times. Its the little details that matter if you want to stack that tear/Manamune as fast as possible. If your running back to lane then you should be hitting those abilities. If your on your way to Dragon or going to be grouping up then be hitting those abilities. I won't say to use your gate in certain situations to stack the tear it'd be your judgement call on whether you want to because of that increased gate cooldown.
The average time for me for stacking the tear and getting the Manamune is around 26-27 minutes and thats after me dying a couple times wasting precious time for those tear stacks. The latest I'd say that I have gotten it would be 38 minutes and that was because the other team was picking on me and wouldn't let me do anything
I have 5 Greater Glyph of Scaling Cooldown reduction which gives 5.56% CD reduction at level 18 to help nullify that increased time on the gate. I still buy the CD boots and Black Cleaver. I even sometimes buy an Elder Golem or Elder Lizard just for that CD reduction like if I'm not getting any blues . My main playstyle with Jayce hasn't changed since the nerf and thats playing him as mainly a poker and shooting with W from afar and only going into Hammer form and jumping in when I believe I won't die and if we'll win the fight if I do jump in with Hammer form.
Hey guys what are your thoughts on Trinity Force Jayce after the jayce nerfs/TF buffs? I just came back after a nearly 2-month long break and find that my favorite top laner isn't nearly as popular anymore... is he just not very viable now or is he still a solid, mid-tier pick?
On October 08 2013 04:44 Sajaki wrote: Hey guys what are your thoughts on Trinity Force Jayce after the jayce nerfs/TF buffs? I just came back after a nearly 2-month long break and find that my favorite top laner isn't nearly as popular anymore... is he just not very viable now or is he still a solid, mid-tier pick?
Jayce is 1 of my main champs and in my opinion he is still a good solid pick. I have never tried trinity force on jayce before but I can see how it could work. I mainly play Jayce as a poker more then a in your face brawler. Also, I've already stated what I thought about his nerfs. Its hardly noticeable.
On October 08 2013 04:44 Sajaki wrote: Hey guys what are your thoughts on Trinity Force Jayce after the jayce nerfs/TF buffs? I just came back after a nearly 2-month long break and find that my favorite top laner isn't nearly as popular anymore... is he just not very viable now or is he still a solid, mid-tier pick?
I think trinity is a really nice item now, but when it comes to fitting it into a build I have some difficulty. My standard Jayce build for example is boots/muramana/LW/BC/BT/GA. If I'm versing double ap I might swap out the BT for a maw. Flat damage is just such an insane stat on Jayce that I would rather any of those items over a trinity.
Jayce isn't as silly as he used to be early/mid game, but his midgame is still decent and his lategame is still insane. I'd actually say with a GA he can duel just about any ADC/mage/assassin if he hits one shock blast.
The reason being that the way LW, Jayce's ranged passive (armorshred on first hit, honestly irrelevant overrall but yknow) and BC stack is horribly inefficient and IE with rank 5 hyperblast is amazing
On October 14 2013 14:42 Dusty wrote: I was talking to someone about the end game item build for jayce, and I've come to the conclusion that jayce's best 6 item build would have to be:
The reason being that the way LW, Jayce's ranged passive (armorshred on first hit, honestly irrelevant overrall but yknow) and BC stack is horribly inefficient and IE with rank 5 hyperblast is amazing
What runes/masteries are you running? I understand IE on jayce but cleaver gives you cdr, a little more survivability and whilst I agree the stack isn't great in a team fight 1v1 it makes you a monster.
On October 14 2013 14:42 Dusty wrote: I was talking to someone about the end game item build for jayce, and I've come to the conclusion that jayce's best 6 item build would have to be:
The reason being that the way LW, Jayce's ranged passive (armorshred on first hit, honestly irrelevant overrall but yknow) and BC stack is horribly inefficient and IE with rank 5 hyperblast is amazing
What runes/masteries are you running? I understand IE on jayce but cleaver gives you cdr, a little more survivability and whilst I agree the stack isn't great in a team fight 1v1 it makes you a monster.
If you don't go CDR boots what do you do for CDR with no items for it? Assuming no cdr runes blue pot/buff/masteries gets you to 24%, don't you notice that?
I mean I'm pretty sure you're a much better player than me so if you think this is 100% the best build I'll go with it, but I just feel like I'd much rather the cdr, 10 arpen, 200 hp and passive over the 30 extra AD and POSSIBLE chance my hypercharge will do insane damage.
Been playing some tank Jayce with IBG/SV and whatever other tank stuff I need. Anyone else have any thoughts on it? With all the damage junglers recently, I find that our team just explodes and having a back up plan with Jayce is nice. You also feel like a boss jumping into the fray and smashing people.
On December 25 2013 16:44 nyxnyxnyx wrote: I've been jungling Jayce. It's a lot of fun when SotEL is a legit pickup since it gives all the stats you want on him.
How do you get through the first five or so minutes of the game?
I found that portion of the game awfully rough. If you could get to like 6 without being behind you are strong, but like... getting there is hard. Those jungle minions hit hard.
I start W and then max R>Q>W>E. You need to maximize the AA cancel/weave in skills in between autos. Also helps to walk inside camps to Q the whole bunch. I don't think Jayce has problems clearing camps. With blue up he clears amazing, and even if you donate second blue, having Spirit Stone by then makes everything easy.
Anyone tried Essence Reaver on him? Feels pretty strong mid game (obviously, since its a 60 AD ad item with 10% cdr), however I dont think you should skip tear for Muramane, because then you cant be a lane bully. I dont know, getting ER instead of BT seems ok to me
On July 03 2014 04:39 Djin)ftw( wrote: Anyone tried Essence Reaver on him? Feels pretty strong mid game (obviously, since its a 60 AD ad item with 10% cdr), however I dont think you should skip tear for Muramane, because then you cant be a lane bully. I dont know, getting ER instead of BT seems ok to me
Muramana W procs are just too good to skip imo, the CDR/Mana restore on Reaver is good though. Since Jayce really wants AD/CDR later in the game to poke + W kill people in like 2 seconds lolol
On July 03 2014 04:39 Djin)ftw( wrote: Anyone tried Essence Reaver on him? Feels pretty strong mid game (obviously, since its a 60 AD ad item with 10% cdr), however I dont think you should skip tear for Muramane, because then you cant be a lane bully. I dont know, getting ER instead of BT seems ok to me
Muramana W procs are just too good to skip imo, the CDR/Mana restore on Reaver is good though. Since Jayce really wants AD/CDR later in the game to poke + W kill people in like 2 seconds lolol
I think essence reaver is a 5/6slot item for jayce. Rushing it just doesn't feel good because you don't hit hard enough yet for the mana restore to really matter, and the muramana timing is just insane on jayce. I guess one possibility is replacing the brutalizer with reaver, but that just seems too slow, brut is insanely cost efficient for what you're aiming for, especially when combo'd with last whisper. It lets you hit a timing where empowered Q hits for like 1/3 of squishy hp during midgame.
I suppose it also depends on how much your team needs you to carry. If you have to carry every fight, Iedge+ghostblade is probably better than reaver. If your team just needs you to poke people out of defending a lane though, reaver->defensive item(mercurial?) is better.
On July 03 2014 04:39 Djin)ftw( wrote: Anyone tried Essence Reaver on him? Feels pretty strong mid game (obviously, since its a 60 AD ad item with 10% cdr), however I dont think you should skip tear for Muramane, because then you cant be a lane bully. I dont know, getting ER instead of BT seems ok to me
Muramana W procs are just too good to skip imo, the CDR/Mana restore on Reaver is good though. Since Jayce really wants AD/CDR later in the game to poke + W kill people in like 2 seconds lolol
I think essence reaver is a 5/6slot item for jayce. Rushing it just doesn't feel good because you don't hit hard enough yet for the mana restore to really matter, and the muramana timing is just insane on jayce. I guess one possibility is replacing the brutalizer with reaver, but that just seems too slow, brut is insanely cost efficient for what you're aiming for, especially when combo'd with last whisper. It lets you hit a timing where empowered Q hits for like 1/3 of squishy hp during midgame.
I suppose it also depends on how much your team needs you to carry. If you have to carry every fight, Iedge+ghostblade is probably better than reaver. If your team just needs you to poke people out of defending a lane though, reaver->defensive item(mercurial?) is better.
the issue with essence and the current items for jayce are they want him to go into AA range, when that is not necessarily his strong suit. I really don't think he's powerful in this path at all.
I had a game vs a Renekton yesterday. He would dash through my creeps, then dash again to position himself behind me. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do against that. If I try to fight him I'll definitely lose since his Ult is so strong. And I can't exactly knock him back. Do I just cede cs and get it when it hits the tower?
Also, the recent nerfs to jungle leashing really hurt his jungle sustain. And the nerfs to hypercharge really hurt Jayce's late game.
On January 17 2015 04:56 obesechicken13 wrote: I had a game vs a Renekton yesterday. He would dash through my creeps, then dash again to position himself behind me. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do against that. If I try to fight him I'll definitely lose since his Ult is so strong. And I can't exactly knock him back. Do I just cede cs and get it when it hits the tower?
Jayce vs Renekton is a pretty tricky matchup. The best way to beat the croc is to stay even in cs and simply outscale him. I haven't played both champs this patch but around 90 Renekton and 80 Jayce games in s4. When Renekton has used both dashes to get behind you, he is pretty much all in. If he used 50 fury for his second dash you should be able to fight him. Activate W to get the bonus attackspeed and transform into hammer form. Activate W, Q on him to get the slow off and try to get behind him and knock him back. Transform back to cannon form and EQ his face. If Renekton uses his ult to fight you just walk back to the tower. He can't gapclose for the next 10 seconds. Wait until his ult has worn off and he has used his fury to heal from creeps. Then you have a 1 minute window to all in him. I recommend ignite over tp in this matchup if you don't want to farm it out.
Also, the recent nerfs to jungle leashing really hurt his jungle sustain. And the nerfs to hypercharge really hurt Jayce's late game.
can't say much about jungle Jayce. The nerfs on his W were unnecessary imo and I stopped playing him for now.
I want to ask about the manamune vs essence reaver opening on jayce since there are a few things that caught my mind.
* The mana sustain of essence reaver is just enough, which is exactly what you want for efficiency. * Essence reaver gives him hp regeneration which is a great luxury for a top laner that is supposed to apply pressure and splitpushing and is especially useful against any kind of poke. * The damage spikes of the ER buildup comes in strong, faster timings: When you grab your BF and when you finish the item, while the muramana buildup takes longer. * Q doesn't benefit from the muramana toggle as it does for example for ezreal, so a good part of the damage cannot be applied during alot of situations. * It is also easier to cap cdr with an essence reaver opening, which is a very strong stat on jayce.
its pretty obvious that complete reaver is better than complete manamune on Jayce, the issue comes from the period of building the items. the lack of mana generating parts in reaver makes it pretty obsolete 9 out of 10 times not only for jayce but for all champs that can benefit from it. If you can assess when this 10th case is up then go for reaver, otherwise manamune.