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On November 18 2013 23:38 magicturtle wrote: Kha'zix is an EXTREMELY adaptable champion, do not ever let yourself fall into the trap "this is the build i use on khazix and it's the best build ever and i will never need to buy different items."
This part is 100% true and I completely agree with it. When playing Kha'zix you need to base your skill order, evolution order, and build order completely upon your lane, your team, and the enemy team. I also agreed where earlier in your post you said that both Q max and W max are viable. They both are. With that said...
I would never build tear if I'm maxing Q. Typically if I'm maxing Q my first evolve is either Q or E. Against squishy mages, or sometimes as jungle scyther, I'll evolve E first so that I can get to people quicker and start snow balling earlier. Against bruisers and some melee lanes I'll evolve Q first for more consistent harass and trade power (or faster clearing if I'm jungle). In either scenario, with Q max and evolve Q or E, I simply don't need the tear. Because in those games I'm not going to evolve W until way later which means that 90% of the time I'm only using W to chase or add to my all-in burst so the mana from tear ends up being completely wasted and my gold would be better spent on damage.
Now when I W max and W evolve, yeah, I rush tear. That's mostly due to the fact that when you're evolving W early you're going to be spamming that shit since you're way more poke-centric whereas a Q max with E or Q evolve is just straight all-in with very little poke. Typically W max+evolve is what I do if the enemy has a ton of CC and my all-in potential is bad or if I'm against someone with ridiculous wave clear so that my tower doesn't die (since Kha'zix without W evolve clears waves super slow).
If you're maxing Q then W is going to be your last evolution (if you evolve it at all). Buying a tear in that situation is just a waste honestly. None of this to say that there is one set and true build path. But if you're going to max Q you're really better off building damage in just about every scenario. If you're against a Ryze and Q max you can just evolve E, jump on him, you WAY out trade him and damage is a shit ton more helpful than tear and W poke in that match up. Even if he rune prisons you, you can just ult and then kill him lol.
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Sorry for double post. Could someone with OGN subscription tell me what Save's skill/evolve order was in the NJWS/Dark game? His build order seems to hint he went W max+evolve but I'm just curious.
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he maxed W-Q and evolved W-E
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What do you guys think about the 2 most popular item builds for Kha'Zix? Which one is better than the other in what condition?
Build #1: inSec style (which Nightblue discovered and popularized)
Lizard elder into brutalizer (or hexdrinker if enemy is AP heavy) into Last Whisper into Giant's Belt (Belt and LW are interchangeable) into mercs and randuins into BC (or maw if we started hexdrinker) into GA
Build #2: Triad style (which Loveling excessively used in Worlds)
Lizard elder into brutalizer and hexdrinker (order depending on the enemy comp) into LW into BC and Maw into GA
I for myself use build #1 whenever we don't have a tanky toplaner (examples being stuff like Riven, Tryndamere and Lulu) and we're not double AP and #2 if we have a tanky toplaner that deals magic damage, if we're double ap, if our adc deals mixed damage and mid and top aren't both AD.
If we have problem with fight initiation and peeling, I go for #1. If we don't, I go for #2.
What are your opinions about Kha'Zix builds.
Note: Skill and evolution order are nightblue style, ie. if I can snowball and team has ranged waveclear, i go for RQWE skill order and QEW evolution order. If we can't snowball and lack ranged waveclear, i go for RWQE skill order and WEQ evolution order.
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I run this build almost every game and it's been working great. Lizard rush maybe get shoes before completion if you back with random gold. Full build is lizard, mercs/lucidity, hydra,cleaver,maw,randuins. Gets you tanky enough to go in while still having the damage to kill shit. I build things in gold/need order. Got 60%+ win rate with it so it's kind of hard to want to experiment to find something better If the enemy team is full ad or double fed AP I'll of course make some changes but lately I feel this build works almost always.
My style is lvl 3 gank if my team doesn't retard shove all lanes. After that I usually do a fairly even farm/gank split to put pressure while spending my stacks. I always go W first for the extra slow and the faster clear and E second to "become kha'zix".
I feel Kha'Zix is way the best jungler in the game right now and has been since season 3. When it's banned/picked I run one of Elise, Pantheon,Xin'Zhao or Fiddlesticks.
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I find hydra unviable on Kha'Zix. Despite the fact that it vastly improves your split pushing ability and gives you some more sustain, I think there are a lot better offensive items on Kha'Zix.
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Does Nightblue really skill/evolve q first ? Tried that a few times and it seems way worse even when fed. On the items it all depends if Hexdrinker is really worth it. If they have double ap, sth like a fizz or any other form of burst ap, I think it def is. Otherwise better go Randuins.
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On November 03 2014 10:19 Kenpark wrote: Does Nightblue really skill/evolve q first ? Tried that a few times and it seems way worse even when fed. On the items it all depends if Hexdrinker is really worth it. If they have double ap, sth like a fizz or any other form of burst ap, I think it def is. Otherwise better go Randuins. I saw it a few times on his stream, frequency is definitely low though, only when he's absofuckinglutely sure that he will snowball. Q evolve works better with going full man hunt mode and dragon control. Your mentality turns from rather siege oriented style to pick/isolated 1v1/small skirmish oriented style (which i favor).
I do that much more often though. I evolve Q first whenever I get to level 6 with 1-0-1 or higher amount of kda (presuming that I didn't waste a fuckton of time for the kills). Then I get lizard+brutalizer (or hexdrinker) and go man hunt mode on the enemy jungler (probably won't work on NB3's elo but works on mine).
I prefer the triad build against double ap (especially if the second AP isn't anything like Ryze or Rumble that can take a few hits and hit back) and go with burst on burst.
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Don't people generally evolve E first? I haven't played Kha'zix that much, but that's what I assumed and it's been working well enough. It puts all kinds of pressure on lanes with the range you can engage from and the situations you can escape from...
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On November 08 2014 09:12 Dapper_Cad wrote: Don't people generally evolve E first? I haven't played Kha'zix that much, but that's what I assumed and it's been working well enough. It puts all kinds of pressure on lanes with the range you can engage from and the situations you can escape from... I feel like you can't really make use of the reset till like level 11, w/q bring alot more to the table for your first evolve imo.
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I agree with arb, from my older experiences, E is a good second choice, not good as first evolve. Your shorter leap is normally good enough for pressure in lanes. Q evolve in particular is great for sniping a weakened lane gank target. W is good depending upon their champ.
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Q max and Q evolve first into E evolve is starting picking up a lot of popularity on Chinese server dia+. Been playing around with it a lot and it feels almost OP tbh. It helps a lot if you have a constant idea of enemy junglers location, and clear + level speed without affecting ganks.
E evolve first was the old build, it was before they nerfed his Q and changed his R to have damage reduction,
Personal build Lizard Elder > Brut > Hexdrinker > LW > GA. Boots depends on game/composition. I never bought boots of mobi even as a jungler main until i touched rengar, which was only a few months ago. These items I found as core for pretty much all AD junglers simply because of how cost effective they are and what they upgrade into.
Interesting items on Khazix - Scythe item (80AD life/mana leech CDR) - poormans bloodthirster. Better on k6 due to CDR and cheaper. Yomumus - still prefer Cleaver but this is interesting for duels vs late game AA champs. If I was that afraid of them (late game Yi, fiora etc) I would probably switch flash for exhaust. Then again if the Yi is a pro he'll probably do that too.
TF - played around with it. Quite interesting, not that bad, but not that great either. pretty similar to Lucian's TF first build instead of IE. You lose out on the Q damage and get back more autos + sheen proc. really expensive item and pretty useless if you got it piece by piece since there are much better choices in the 1200-1400 range.
Hydra - probably much better for lane khazix, but overall bad item. You gain an interesting burst damage active when you jump in tho, and you clear out surrounding minions super fast for the isolated Q. you gain almost nothing from the lifesteal since k6 AS is horrendous without AS items.
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On November 09 2014 13:47 padfoota wrote: Q max and Q evolve first into E evolve is starting picking up a lot of popularity on Chinese server dia+. Been playing around with it a lot and it feels almost OP tbh. It helps a lot if you have a constant idea of enemy junglers location, and clear + level speed without affecting ganks.
E evolve first was the old build, it was before they nerfed his Q and changed his R to have damage reduction,
Personal build Lizard Elder > Brut > Hexdrinker > LW > GA. Boots depends on game/composition. I never bought boots of mobi even as a jungler main until i touched rengar, which was only a few months ago. These items I found as core for pretty much all AD junglers simply because of how cost effective they are and what they upgrade into.
Interesting items on Khazix - Scythe item (80AD life/mana leech CDR) - poormans bloodthirster. Better on k6 due to CDR and cheaper. Yomumus - still prefer Cleaver but this is interesting for duels vs late game AA champs. If I was that afraid of them (late game Yi, fiora etc) I would probably switch flash for exhaust. Then again if the Yi is a pro he'll probably do that too.
TF - played around with it. Quite interesting, not that bad, but not that great either. pretty similar to Lucian's TF first build instead of IE. You lose out on the Q damage and get back more autos + sheen proc. really expensive item and pretty useless if you got it piece by piece since there are much better choices in the 1200-1400 range.
Hydra - probably much better for lane khazix, but overall bad item. You gain an interesting burst damage active when you jump in tho, and you clear out surrounding minions super fast for the isolated Q. you gain almost nothing from the lifesteal since k6 AS is horrendous without AS items.
Your personal build is what I called Triad build. Do pros go GA before maw and BC and does lifesteal give you health with Q? I was experimenting with late game reaver switch (80AD life/mana leech CDR item, I sell lizard elder for it) and even though my burst increased a slight bit, my sustain decreased (because lizard leeches you HP from your Q and reaver doesn't).
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On November 12 2014 17:42 Djagulingu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2014 13:47 padfoota wrote: Q max and Q evolve first into E evolve is starting picking up a lot of popularity on Chinese server dia+. Been playing around with it a lot and it feels almost OP tbh. It helps a lot if you have a constant idea of enemy junglers location, and clear + level speed without affecting ganks.
E evolve first was the old build, it was before they nerfed his Q and changed his R to have damage reduction,
Personal build Lizard Elder > Brut > Hexdrinker > LW > GA. Boots depends on game/composition. I never bought boots of mobi even as a jungler main until i touched rengar, which was only a few months ago. These items I found as core for pretty much all AD junglers simply because of how cost effective they are and what they upgrade into.
Interesting items on Khazix - Scythe item (80AD life/mana leech CDR) - poormans bloodthirster. Better on k6 due to CDR and cheaper. Yomumus - still prefer Cleaver but this is interesting for duels vs late game AA champs. If I was that afraid of them (late game Yi, fiora etc) I would probably switch flash for exhaust. Then again if the Yi is a pro he'll probably do that too.
TF - played around with it. Quite interesting, not that bad, but not that great either. pretty similar to Lucian's TF first build instead of IE. You lose out on the Q damage and get back more autos + sheen proc. really expensive item and pretty useless if you got it piece by piece since there are much better choices in the 1200-1400 range.
Hydra - probably much better for lane khazix, but overall bad item. You gain an interesting burst damage active when you jump in tho, and you clear out surrounding minions super fast for the isolated Q. you gain almost nothing from the lifesteal since k6 AS is horrendous without AS items.
Your personal build is what I called Triad build. Do pros go GA before maw and BC and does lifesteal give you health with Q? I was experimenting with late game reaver switch (80AD life/mana leech CDR item, I sell lizard elder for it) and even though my burst increased a slight bit, my sustain decreased (because lizard leeches you HP from your Q and reaver doesn't).
Q doesnt lifesteal. You are "healing" from damaging jungle monsters because of lizard passive, so im guessing you tried to solo late game dragon/baron without lizard elder. Reaver switch from lizard is definitely the best choice since you maintain the cdr, gain more AD and a semi decent lifesteal + mana leech. You delete people too fast for either to be relevant in a straight fight but it helps when you have minions around to hit in between assassinations.
I usually go GA before upgrading maw OR cleaver/ghostblade, but if opponent have a TON of ap damage (ap top + mid, ezreal adc, etc) then maw comes first. In fact if its mainly magic damage then ill probably just go for banshee
However, if opponent is AA based ( Trynd top, Xin jungle, Yasuo mid, Ez+ leona bot), I go thornmail and hunt
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Played quite a few games in the new jungle as a low gold player.
Very quickly found I was backing after 3 camps and then backing again after maybe 3-4 more camps with maybe a weak gank. This worried me a lot. I tried playing around with skirmishers and stalkers while rushing hydra, tried evolving W first. Just tried a bunch of stuff to get a good jungle clear while not buying pots and being a threat on the map, I was really scared that I was clearing too slowly and wasting too much money.
Nothing worked for me as well as just giving up, starting slowly buying 8+ pots over the first few levels and waiting until 6/12 to start being really threatening.
Ranger>Warrior>Brutalizer>[insert your old build here] while buying a couple pots on most backs for 15 minutes or so and evolving Q>E>R most games.
Anyone else have thoughts?
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