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The choice between AD and ArPen depends mainly on how well you CS. If you're able to CS with armor pen, it will provide more damage against champions at pretty much all points in the game with a few exceptions(early in the game with champions which have high AD scaling and high magic damage/low base damage).
The reduced AD probably won't make you push noticeably slower. I mean, it will but the majority of push disparity comes from champion choice and ability use.
I've been running a lot more armor runes bottom lane AD now. I have a defensive page which is armor yellows and quints plus AD reds. A standard page which is flat AD quints/reds, armor yellows, and then a page for playing with Leona which is hybrid pen reds, ad quints, armor yellows. Scaling MR blues on all of them
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Hmm, I'm surprised you're not running flat health or armor quints on leona, but that's a different discussion from the one in this thread .
Armor runes DUMP on AD/support combinations which rely on a lot of autoattack or physical harass. I think they're particularly strong against Cait, Thresh, Graves and Vayne.
Addressing the low AD thing I have noticed a lot of CS missing (like 1-2 per wave sometimes) in the early game but:
1) I play mainly MF and Cait as ADC 2) Cait I can last hit with ezpz 3) MF I build dorans BT bruta LW usually and that extra armor pen chunks really hard on her ult. Sometimes I use hybrid pen with one AD quint and two lifesteal quints and build sorc boots depending on the matchups and lategame. I may switch out the crit rune on MF and have two dedicated pages because I rarely build IE and the critchance might not be significant enough to warrant a rune but I just haven't made the effort yet.
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No point in bringing flat health if you're just gonna buy a bunch of health in your traditional support items.
Plus i don't play Leona because i have gotten too used to morgana
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you should have flat hp yellows and armor quints like 100% of the time on leona.
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Sure, but what about Lucian?
Edit: Ohh i see the confusion
Playing with Leona means "Playing along side Leona". Hybrid pen because much of the time i play with magic damage AD's along side Leo and the additional magic pen magnifies her passives proc (which apply the pen of the person who procs it)
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how the fuck do you guys last hit under the turret with that many armor pen runes >_> Personally I just stole wildturtles build and went for a 1.3 mana regen, damage quint+reds, but mixed armor/hp yellows. I play a lot of caster ADCs (Cait, Sivir, Varus, Lucian...to some extent Twitch) so the mana regen is amazing in trades, and shines especially during tight trades. the 15 damage from quints+reds helps me last hit under turret (13ad and 15ad is the difference between one shot and two shots to kill a range minion after it was hit by turret once)
Been messing around with the builds a bit, figured theres a serious problem when it comes to TF and Botrk on Lucian
Heres my argument for TF vs Shiv - TF provides a splash of stats everywhere, better kiting capabilities, and apparently "stronger burst" from lucians passive. The first two arguments makes sense, but since when Lucian crits, both his passive autoattacks will crit. Shiv has higher crit chance, plus the lightning itself crits too (as i recall), the burst is comparable. Therefore, you are spending 1000 more mainly for kiting power and slightly strong burst. This leads to two builds that I feel are great right now
BT-Shiv-LW - standard ADC build - dropping the TF allows your LW to complete 1k gold faster - which basically throws you faster into the "carry window" around the 25 minute mark if all things go well. Great build when opponents are standard (exp - tiamat Renekton top, lee sin jungle, Syndra mid, Cait + Nami bot)
Botrk - TF - LW - Botrk is great for kiting, not for burst. Its an amazing item if your opponents have 2+ Jax/Vayne/Yasuo and other AD assassins that builds botrk and goes for your ass every engage. Problem with Botrk is the lack of burst damage - something TF makes up with. Obviously this delays the LW, but since the opponents are basically AD assassins/bruisers, not hard tanks, the delay is ok - in fact, sometimes you can just keep going for IE instead of LW if the situation allows it.
Obviously theres the BT/Botrk - Yomumu - Cleaver - LW build where you rely heavily on your ulti + armor shred - only useful if the opponent team if stacking the fuuuuck on tanks (3+ , exp. leona shyvana mundo)..not very common where I play since everyone likes to hard carry.
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Well since the last patch destroyed pretty much every common ADC build (and on a more global note, kinda screwed my whole champion pool, so now reaching Plat is going to be a hell lot of work), how do you build Lucian now ? I've seen botrk/youmu (what's the point of building this outside of a stronger midgame and worse lategame), IE starts, etc...but what's the new standard build for him ? (ie. the build that you do kinda every game in soloQ with him)
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i havent tried any lucian this patch yet but the BOTRK/youmuu build makes a lot of sense by the pros. BOTRK has 8% on hit dmg now which is good for lucian, with the cdr + attack speed from Youmuu lucian can proc that passive more often than the regular build before.
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Yes it does make a lot of sense by the pros, but they are pro, that's the difference. They know what they're doing, and I don't like using a build when I don't understand it's goal/purpose :p
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As much as I used to hate Bork on Lucian, I really think that it's become a good item. I'm too stubborn to care about new builds though, so I just do what I've been doing, except now I just cut out the BT. Basically, Triforce rush into Youmuu's into Inf. Edge or Last Whisper.
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Triforce rush into Youmuu ? Man this build lacks so much damage
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On July 03 2014 00:31 Sakray wrote: Triforce rush into Youmuu ? Man this build lacks so much damage
I've been trying it. It's actually a lot of damage if you get your full combo off. It's really important that you know how to weave autoattacks between skills and do it while moving. I'm still not sure when to use the Youmu active so I just use it after i burned all skills to get my autoattack speed up, although by that point I usually kill most target that isn't a tank.
http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=obamasappendix
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Imo using the Youmuu right before you start your combo is the best bet (or when you use your ultimate in teamfights), depending if you can get close enough to do a full rotation), since you'll be doing your rotation much faster.
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I like the IE first build into statik shiv.
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On July 02 2014 23:26 Sakray wrote: Yes it does make a lot of sense by the pros, but they are pro, that's the difference. They know what they're doing, and I don't like using a build when I don't understand it's goal/purpose :p It's not too hard to understand, you have good lifesteal, great penetration, and your ult does a ton of damage. Your passive procs BotRK, you have extra movespeed for teamfights, the cdr helps you a lot, and you can kite people who gapclose on you with the BotRK active + e + ghostblade if you haven't used it for the ult already.
Don't forget to activate ghostblade when you ult though lol .
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Hey obamasappendix we still haven't duo'd yet! lol, i dropped out of diamond :'(
anyway yes I agree with what he's saying, botrk is ok because of his passive sure, but it really doesn't have the synergy i desire, i finally had a few ranked games on my smurf with him at gold 1/plat IV elo and I really what I do
long sword and pots, BF, BF, berserker greaves, IE, Tri force, mercurial scimitar or BT, LW/PD,
your spike will be a lot more, your sustain will be pretty comparable, but your skills are 4x as strong than the cutlass build, this build works against all decently well, if you're missing early life steal you can still go quints, but I prefer armor pen reds and AD quints.
as far as the botrk build goes, a good troll build i've found is to go 15% scaling cdr quints, boots of lucidity, and iceborne gauntlet
your build to get there can be whatever, get botrk, probably IE, tear is a possibility too, as is that new item I can't remember the name.
with 40% cdr you increase your damage a ton, and you don't run out of mana so you can consantly proc iceborn+your passive. it's crazy strong in the normal 4/3.5AD teams
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Wait, you go double BF ? This is so fucking risky man, and outside of boots you get no finished item for at least 20min.
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On July 04 2014 07:36 Sakray wrote: Wait, you go double BF ? This is so fucking risky man, and outside of boots you get no finished item for at least 20min.
its not as risky as people make it out to be unless you lose your lane really bad, if you can get 1 BF the 2nd BF is extremely easy to get considering BF is much stronger than cutlass, while LCS = correct builds, that is also when teams will generally punish the hell out of you for doing something risky. this worked for me in diamond V so its not top top tier, but its not silver either. bottom line is, double BF makes you hit 4x harder than normal and harder than anyone else that will be laned against you.
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Hey obamasappendix we still haven't duo'd yet! lol, i dropped out of diamond :'(
I haven't duo queued with anyone in awhile and I've been testing a lot of new stuff. The only champ I am really comfortable with at high level is Lulu, Cait, and Lucian so I'm working to diversify my champ pool a bit.
Hit me up this weekend if you still want to do it.
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I haven't seen a lucian win a game in so long now, it's weird playing in games against my ADC's since i've been mostly trist/twitch/kog before the pro's started using them.
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