Now that season 3 is behind us and season 4 is under way, it's time to do some spring cleaning and update champion threads. This is a comprehensive beginners guide to the brightest champion in the League.
A little about me: I've been playing Lux since mid season 2, and she's taken me from 900 ELO in season 2 all the way to high Platinum at the end of season 3. I don't pretend to be an amazing player at League of Legends, but with a positive winrate over 600 ranked Lux games played between seasons 2 and 3 and probably just as many in normals, I like to think I know Lux fairly well.
Why pick Lux?
I personally think that Lux is the best mid laner to learn if you aren't a mid lane player but need to pick up a mid lane champion for ranked play, or if you're just learning how to play and want to pick up a competitive mid lane champion. The following things make Lux an excellent champion to learn.
1 - She fits into any team composition. She can be used to poke, protect your carry, assassinate high value targets, and is excellent at sieges and objective control.
2 - She can be picked into any mid lane matchup. While she has few matchups that she absolutely dominates, she has essentially zero hard counters and can be infuriatingly difficult to kill in lane. You can first pick her blindly, and even then she can illuminate the enemy as support when that jerk 5th pick decides to instalock Kha'Zix.
3 - She is fairly simple and straightforward to play, and uses more or less the same item build every game, making her an ideal champion for newer players.
Playstyles
There are essentially two ways to play Lux, either as a solo lane mage or as a duo lane support. Both playstyles are similar in terms of playing the champion, but they are very different in terms of set up and build orders.
Tactical decision, Summoner. This is the way Lux is typically played, as a solo lane, safe farming, endlessly harassing, one shotting death laser machine. Solo lane Lux is typically played in the mid lane, since she is somewhat blue buff dependant, lacks the escape tools necessary for top lane, and mid lane allows her a lot of objective control with her long range ultimate. I have played Lux top lane before in emergency situations, but it is simply not as good as playing her mid.
Anti AD: You can use this if both the enemy mid and jungle are AD champions. Use a Morellonomicon build order over Athenes with this rune setup. 7 Hybrid Penetration, 2 Magic Penetration 9 Flat Armor 9 Mana Regen per level 3 Flat AP
Anti AP: You can use this if both the enemy mid and jungle are AP champions. 7 Hybrid Penetration, 2 Magic Penetration 9 HP per level OR 9 Armor per level 9 Flat MR 3 Flat AP
Delayed MR: This is specifically for fighting AP champions that cannot pressure you before level 6, but become threats afterwards. Used vs. champions like Kassadin, Akali and Diana. 7 Hybrid Penetration, 2 Magic Penetration 9 Flat Armor 9 MR per level 3 Flat AP
7 Hybrid Pen marks gives you 6 Armor Penetration, which is exactly how much armor enemy melee minions will have when you get your first blue buff at 7 minutes. After 7 minutes you will start clearing waves with spells over autoattacks, and extra armor penetration stops being as useful.
Do note that if you don't have hybrid pen runes, magic pen is just fine.
24/0/6 is the standard page, which maximizes offense while taking necessary regen in Utility. If you want more movespeed for dodging skillshots in lane you can drop points in Archmage or Blade/Spell weaving for Fleet of Foot.
21/9/0 gives you nearly the same offensive power, but some added defense against laners who have a lot of kill potential early game. Used against champions like Fizz, Syndra, Annie, Wukong etc. In offense take Spell and Blade Weaving for early game harassment, or 2 points in Archmage for late game damage.
I feel like a lot of people overvalue Unyielding and Block on ranged champions, so I'd like to clear this up in regards to Lux. To start with, Lux begins the game with 12 armor, 25 with armor runes. At level 1 a standard enemy mid lane AD champion has lets say 70 AD. With 1 rank in Block, Lux will take 55.2 damage from their autoattacks instead of 56.
Recovery heals 1 HP per 5 seconds, so in order for Block to beat Recovery, you have to take at least 1.25 autoattacks every 5 seconds. This is not common in mid lane, so Recovery is likely better than Block here. Block has negative multiplicative synergy with armor and enemy AD, so as the game goes on, Recovery becomes more and more useful.
One rank in Enchanted Armor will increase Lux's rank 1 armor by 0.325, which will reduce a 70 AD attack from 56 to 55.8. This is worse than Block by 0.6 damage. However, Enchanted Armor also reduces minion damage, by 0.05 for caster minions and 0.03 for melee minions at the start of the game. Enchanted Armor also reduces damage from champion abilities. So ultimately we can say that the damage difference per auto is more like 0.5. Like with Recovery, Block gets less valuable the longer the game goes on, while Enchanted Armor gets more valuable, so this 0.5 difference is only at the start of the game, and then begins to decrease.
Note also that on your very first back, Lux will buy either 2 cloth armors or a null magic mantle depending on the lane. This gives Lux either 0.75 armor or 0.5 MR per point in Enchanted Armor, and reduces this gap even further.
So, to sum things up, Recovery is better than Block, and in the very early game the difference in damage between Block and Enchanted Armor is only about 0.5, depending on enemy AD. After your first back, Enchanted Armor becomes better and continues to scale better throughout the game. Lux is already a very safe champion and hard to kill early in the game, so I see no reason to take Block on her past the one point requirement to reach rank 9 Defense.
Flash and either Heal or Barrier is your standard setup, and you can always take this if you don't want to think about it or don't know who you're up against. The choice between Heal and Barrier is fairly preferential at this point.
Personally, I will take Barrier against Assassins that I expect to run Ignite and try to get kills in lane, and I'll take Heal when I expect the matchup to be more of a farm lane and am worried more about teamfights.
Below are the specific circumstances in which I will change my summoners.
Teleport I will take against hard pushing champions that you can't really kill and want to outroam, such as Heimerdinger or Morgana. A full list of Teleport matchups is in the matchup section later on. Teleport is also good in those rare situations where you expect to be 1v2ing.
Ignite I will take specifically against Fiddlesticks and Swain. Heal can also work here, but it forces you to be less aggressive and more farm oriented. Ignite is also an option against Master Yi if you don't want to take Teleport.
Exhaust I only take against Zed, as it works perfectly as a counter to his ult.
Lux item openers used to be basically all Flask all the time, but since her buff in the the 4.13 patch you have a number of acceptable choices.
Dorans Ring is the most aggressive and cost efficient opener, and is generally what you want to open in most matchups.
Crystalline Flask is still acceptable on Lux, and is slightly more defensive than opening Dring. I might suggest this if you're in a matchup you're unfamiliar with and want to play passive. This is also the best opener if you expect to be in a 1v2, as you will not be fighting and will need the added regen to use spells to farm.
Cloth Armor is actually very strong on Lux in matchups where an enemy AD is expected to try to all in you at level 2 or 3. Again, if you are confident with an AD matchup opening Dring is fine, but if you want a more defensive start, Cloth Armor is perfectly good too.
Your level order as solo lane Lux will always be R>E>Q>W, but your first 3 levels what order you get your skills in is dependant on the individual game.
Going E>Q>W is your ideal, as this gives you the most offensive pressure early in the game.
Q>E>W is fine if your team is doing a level 1 invade, or if your team is invaded.
In some high pressure matchups I will open Q>W>E. This is good when laning against champions such as Fizz, Wukong, Xin Zhao, Fiora and Riven, who are likely going to try to kill you at level 2.
First of all, you won't be using E to farm at level 3, so you're only putting a point in it at this stage for harassment on enemy champions. The second level in E increases the mana cost from 60 to 75. If we count Lux's passive into the damage calculation, the damage at level 3 will go from 114 to 159, counting typical level 3 AP. This increases the damage per mana spent from 1.9 to 2.1. On the other hand, W at level 1 shields for 88.5 twice at a 60 mana cost. Rank 1 E and Rank 1 W together have a mana efficiency of 1.7 if you only use one shield, and 2.425 if you use both.
Basically, getting W instead of E at 3 makes you safer to ganks, lets you win trades harder AND is more mana efficient if you are using your shield to trade aggressively. There's no reason to ever get rank 2 E at level 3.
The midseason 4.5 patch opened up a couple different possible build paths for our light mage. The standard build path is very versatile, and is basically the same as Lux has been building since season 2.
The alternate build path is specifically designed for playing against an AD mid laner, and is designed assuming that you are taking the "vs. AD" rune page outlined in the rune section above.
Although not specifically listed, don't forget to buy wards!
Cost: 4515 Gold
After mana regen, CDR is your most desired statistic. Athenes gives both, so you're going to finish Athenes ASAP. The Needlessly Large Rod gives you a jump in AP and can branch off several ways depending on the game.
Cost: 12267 Gold
Normally you want Deathcap before Void Staff, but sometimes it's better to get Void Staff first. See the notes below for details.
Cost: 17122 Gold
This is your final build in an ideal situation. It's a versatile build with some resistances, 30% CDR and a ton of AP. See the Other Itemization section for possible changes.
As Lux your Deathfire Grasp is really your only optional item slot. While it gives you the most teamfight damage in an ideal situation, it is sometimes switched out for one of the following.
Morellonomicon can be used instead of Athenes if the heal debuff is required against someone like Tryndamere or Mundo.
Lich Bane is an option in the rare situation where you have to split push. This is also an option in the very late game, if you want to sell your boots. This will reduce your movespeed by about 5%, do little to your burst damage, but increase your shields and sustained damage in long fights.
Twin Shadows can be used if your team needs more defensive CC and/or vision control.
Banshee's Veil can be useful if you need a big MR item, or need the spellshield to prevent hard engages.
Guardian Angel is fairly poor on Lux and almost never a good idea, but against very fed Assassins can be the only useful defensive option.
Randuins Omen can be useful if you need a big Armor item.
Games vs. Malzahar or Skarner a QSS will be necessary at some point in the game. Occasionally bought vs. Warwick as well.
Swapping trinkets can be useful against stealth champions.
These two items have interesting synergy with Lux's kit. Void Staff will outdamage Deathcap on champions, but Deathcap will outdamage Void Staff on minions. Critically, getting Deathcap second will allow Lux to one shot caster minions with her E, which makes farming much easier and allows you to roam much more in the mid game.
However, if you are either A - extremely ahead, or B - extremely behind, you can and should get Void Staff first. In the first case you'll be overlevelled and one shotting caster minions anyway, and in the second case you'll be underlevelled and won't be able to one shot caster minions even with a Deathcap, so prioritizing champion damage is more important.
Personally, I try to set the marker for this at about 25 minutes, when playing from behind. If I know that by the 25 minute mark I can't have Deathcap or be close to finishing it, I'll go for Void first instead.
Two dorans rings and your mana regen glyphs here will provide about as much regen as a Chalice, but here you're also getting combat stats suited to fighting an AD lane opponent.
Although not specifically listed, don't forget to buy wards!
Cost: 5005 Gold
When buying Morellonomicon, build Forbidden Idol before Fiendish Codex.
Cost: 13652 Gold
The late game here is basically the same as it is with Athenes, but you've sacrificed your Athenes MR for a better early/mid game against an AD team.
In this build always finish your items in this order: Zhonya > Void Staff > Deathcap.
Cost: 17202 Gold
This is your final build in an ideal situation. See the Other Itemization section for possible changes.
As Lux your Deathfire Grasp is really your only optional item slot. While it gives you the most teamfight damage in an ideal situation, it is sometimes switched out for one of the following.
Lich Bane is an option in the rare situation where you have to split push. This is also an option in the very late game, if you want to sell your boots. This will reduce your movespeed by about 5%, do little to your burst damage, but increase your shields and sustained damage in long fights.
Twin Shadows can be used if your team needs more defensive CC and/or vision control.
All AD teams are usually very autoattack reliant, so Ninja Tabi is a reasonable early defensive option.
Banshee's Veil can be useful if you need the spellshield to prevent hard engages.
Guardian Angel is fairly poor on Lux and almost never a good idea, but against very fed Assassins can be the only useful defensive option.
Randuins Omen can be useful if you need a big Armor item.
If the game goes late enough you can sell your Morellonomicon for an Athenes, to pick up MR after the enemy support starts building damage items. This costs 1060 gold.
Swapping trinkets can be useful against stealth champions.
I know some Lux players, even some pro Lux players, really like getting Tear + Morellonomicon, for a late game build of Seraphs, Morello, Deathcap, Void Staff and Zhonya. I've tried it and I just don't like it as much as the Athenes build. It has a theoretically stronger end game but I feel like you never actually get there. It's also more blue buff reliant than an Athenes build.
I do think it has some merit vs. an all AD team, but in comparison to the double Doran build I have listed it adds late game power by sacrificing early and mid game power. All AD compositions are strongest in the mid game and tend to fall off late, so I don't like it as much. I'm not going to include in depth instructions on Seraphs builds in this guide.
As a disclaimer, I don't think Support Lux is very good. I've been part of many a Lux support discussion, and the conclusion is always the same, that everything Support Lux does Support Zyra does better. This section of the guide is not meant to suggest that Lux is some secret OP support, but more guidelines on how to play her as support if you find yourself in that situation. If you hate or don't own Zyra, Support Lux is similar. If you first picked a solo lane Lux and have to do some rearranging because some jerk has to play mid Riven, stay positive. We can do this.
If you don't want to make a Lux Support rune page, your Standard solo lane Lux page will work fine. If you have extra pages to spare, I've found these two rune setups to be best.
Offensive: This is your standard page. 9 Hybrid Penetration 9 Flat Armor 9 Flat MR 3 Flat AP
Defensive: Use this page against enemy all in kill lanes like a Leona or a double Bruiser lane. 9 Flat Armor 9 Flat Armor 9 Flat MR 3 Flat AP
If you don't have Hybrid Penetration runes, Magic Penetration is fine for support Lux.
16/0/14 is the most offense oriented you want to go as Support Lux. This is your strongest late game mastery page and can be used against more passive enemy duos like a Soraka or Janna lane.
Ignite or Exhaust is more preference based. Ignite is more aggressive and early game focused, Exhaust more defensive and late game focused.
Taking 4 potions will give you more aggressive harassment against the enemy lane, but will make you more vulnerable to ganks. If you're not sure which option is best, I think 2 potions and a ward is a safer, more standard option.
As Support your skill maxing order is R>W>Q>E, since you get the most mileage per skill point from your shield. It's important to note that with this skill order your E will do almost no damage after early laning, and will be used mostly for vision, the slow field, and farming gold from Tribute procs.
You have two options for what skills to get your first 3 levels.
Q>E>W is your ideal, as it allows you to use E harass at level 2 to start farming gold with your Spellthief's Edge.
Q>W>E is a more defensive opener, giving you good staying power if you get pushed into a passive position at level 1.
Your build path as Support is going to start off the same every game. However, after the laning phase you need to make a decision to branch out into either damage or utility itemization, to make up for whatever your team is lacking.
Cost: 1515 Gold
These items are all based around giving you a strong laning phase. You need to continue buying potions and wards until you complete Sightstone and begin roaming.
Cost: 3660 Gold
This is your core item build. Swap your yellow trinket to a red one after buying Sightstone.
At this point you have to decide whether or not to continue building AP, or transition into utility items for the late game. Below I have an extreme damage focused example, and an extreme utility focused example. What you end up with should vary depending on the game, and may well be somewhere between the two.
Cost: 13790 Gold
This is an example of an end game, damage focused build.
We built the Forbidden Idol into a Morellonomicon here for more AP/CDR, and then built Void Staff and Deathcap in order to turn our Support Lux into basically a solo lane Mage.
Since you won't be farming, build Void Staff before Deathcap in this build.
Cost: 13395 Gold
This is an example of an end game, utility focused build.
We built the Forbidden Idol into Mikael's Crucible in this build, for defense and the Mikael active.
For our final two items we built Locket and Twin Shadows, which caps out our CDR and gives us two more teamfight focused actives.
On rare occasions you have some other options as support Lux. In general you either want to be using one of these as your fifth/sixth item slot, or selling your Frost Queens Claim for one of these very late in the game.
Banner of Command can be alright in some games to help your team split push, or to help counterpush against a split pushing team. It also gives a good damage boost to a mid Zyra or Heimerdinger.
Ardent Censer can be useful if your team benefits a lot from attack speed buffs.
Talisman of Ascension is an option if your team needs help with the engage or disengage.
Zhonya's Hourglass is likely your go to choice if you want to sell Frost Queens Claim for a big AP item late in the game.
Deathfire Grasp is a more offensive option than Zhonya, if you're building a pure damage build and want to keep Frost Queens CDR.
Lich Bane is an option in the very late game, if you want to sell your boots. This will reduce your movespeed by about 5%, do little to your burst damage, but increase your shields and sustained damage in long fights.
If you need more resistances vs. a mostly AD or AP team you can change your boots. In general resistances are not as much of a concern as Support as they are as Mid, however. You will be a lower priority target, and are building tankier already.
While I talked about building Lux in the first section of the guide, this part will be devoted to the basics of how to play her. Lux really has no hard counters as a solo laner and scales into late game very well as support, so she can beat any opponent with superior tactics. You'll love it when your plan comes together.
If you're having trouble with a particular matchup please let me know in a reply, I've played Lux mid against literally every champion in the game, so I can hopefully help you out.
Lux isn't a top tier lane bully like Syndra or Ziggs, but she's perfectly capable of bullying many champions. Lux has above average AD for a typical AP mid, so don't be afraid to go very aggressive at level 1. Generally you want to use E and W to win trades while saving Q to start and get away from ganks. Look for an opportunity to get a kill at level 6 but focus on zoning and outfarming your opponent above getting kills.
Mid Game
Generally in the mid game you have to make a decision to either roam and gank or focus down the mid lane tower. You're very versatile and likely at your strongest power curve compared to your opponents at this stage of the game, so it's difficult to give advice here. Everything works, but here are two good tips. First, if the enemy mid roams and you cannot follow, use an ult to kill a creep wave so you can push down the tower. Second, don't be afraid to ward the enemy blue buff and steal it with your ult, especially at sub gold MMR.
If you are behind at this stage of the game focus on farming and staying in lane as long as possible. It is very hard to prevent Lux from farming no matter how far behind she is, and if the opposing mid cannot kill you they will have to stay in lane to protect their tower. This will prevent them from snowballing another lane.
In teamfights you want to hold off on your spells and try to assassinate a squishy target. Be careful with using too much mana to poke in a siege if you don't have blue buff because before the late game you can run yourself out of mana before the fight starts. Once you use your initial combo you want to stay safe and peel for your ADC. Save your next string of spells to keep somebody from dying rather than finding a target to kill.
Late Game
The late game as Lux plays similarly to the mid game, but now the enemy team probably has enough defense that you won't be able to one shot anyone but the ADC with your combo, so you want to transition more towards poking than assassination in sieges. Late in the game your ult cooldown will hit 30 seconds, and you can start using it liberally to safely farm creep waves, check baron, etc. In fights you're less worried about your ult hitting the ADC at this point and more trying to make sure it hits as many people as possible.
I've split the matchups into 6 different categories based on how the lane typically plays out, whether Lux is the aggressor or her counterpart, etc. Within those categories I've divided them into easier, medium and harder categories.
Hard doesn't mean Lux loses the matchup, in fact several matchups that I list as more difficult I'd say Lux should typically win if played correctly. It is more an indicator that something about the matchup is unusual or extra demanding, and will require more thought and practice than other matchups.
For each of the Hard matchups I've given a bigger explanation in spoilers about what makes the matchup more difficult than the rest, and how to play around that specific opponent.
Aggression Lanes
These are lane opponents where Lux can afford to bully and play aggressive throughout the game. Lissandra you likely won't kill after 6 but can consistently force her out of lane and get a CS lead. Sion and Mordekaiser you can kill easily early game, but they tend to become difficult to kill later on without jungle help.
Evelynn will try to roam a lot and bypasses side lane wards, so be extra vocal about when she's not in the lane and where you think she's going.
The best way to beat Anivia is by warding her blue buff and stealing it with your ultimate. If she never gets blues you will dominate the lane, but if they do she can farm forever.
Runes: MR vs. long range champs, AP or AP/level vs. short range (Morde, Sion, Malphite etc), MP5 vs. Khazix Masteries: 24/0/6 Summoners: Heal, Ignite vs. Swain and Fiddle Starting Items: Dring + 2 pots Skill order: E>Q>W
Swain Especially post 6, Swain can do a lot of damage to you if you get close to him, and is not too difficult to push out of the lane but difficult to kill. Ignite is not a bad option in this matchup. You can be aggressive all game long with Q and E, but you have to really respect his zone of control and not get too close to him. Stealing the enemy blue is a big deal in this matchup, it will kill his ability to sustain and allow you to push him out of lane much easier.
Teemo What makes Teemo tricky is that while you are blinded, your autoattacks will not proc your passive. You can harass him with Q and E all day, but you can't go up to autoattack, because he will blind you and end up winning the trade. Much like with Swain, you need to focus on safe harass and slow pushing him out of the lane rather than going for big trades in this matchup.
Cassiopeia Cassiopeia is probably the hardest of the Aggressive matchups. Her ranges are short and she lacks escapes, so you can harass her all game long, but if you screw up she will turn on a dime and kill you faster than you might expect. Try to keep Q for defense rather than offense. E+auto is enough harass to win the lane, you'll need the Q to get away if she tries to all in you.
Even Lanes
These are matchups that are fairly skill based. Either side can outplay the other and be aggressive here. Jayce and Brand you can hurt a lot by stealing blue buff. Ezreal is more difficult to deal with as AD than as AP. Quinn has a lot of roam opportunity with her ult, so you need to keep tabs on her and tell your team when she's missing.
Runes: MR vs. APs, MP5 vs. ADs Masteries: Any of the guides mastery pages will work here, based on preference Summoners: Barrier vs. Katarina, Veigar, Brand, Heal vs. others Starting Items: Dring Skill order: E>Q>W
In all 3 of these matchups I like to run 22/0/8 masteries for the 3 points in Movespeed. These champions all rely on skillshots of some sort and I like to think the movespeed helps.
Nidalee Nidalee is hard for a pretty straightforward reason. You have to dodge spears. Failing dodging a spear, you have to shield spear hits. If you do you will win the lane and if you don't you will lose the lane. It's not real good advice but it's true. Nidalee has almost no kill potential pre 6 unless you really screw up, so you can afford to bully her hard pre 6 and get a CS lead.
Ahri Ahri is not a particularly difficult opponent while her ult is down, but while she's using her ult she's suddenly fairly overpowered both offensively and defensively, so you have to work around that. If you get her to blow ult to escape you let your jungler know and try to get a gank before it comes off CD, and be very safe when she hits 6 just like you would against an AP Tristana, Annie or Syndra.
Orianna Orianna is a very tricky lane opponent. You can't win a short, spells only trade with her, because her Q-W combo will outdamage your E-Q combo. However, at the same time you can't win an extended trade with her because of her passive. What you can win is a medium length trade where you get your spells + passive autos and then immediately back away. This small window makes it a lot more difficult for you to outplay Ori than it is for her to outplay you.
Teleport Lanes
These are lanes where I take Teleport. It's required vs. Twisted Fate to stop him from snowballing with his ultimate. The others it's not required, but I like it since these champions are generally impossible to kill 1v1 after your first back unless you are very ahead, so you can apply better pressure by outroaming them than by fighting in mid.
Runes: AP/level against Cho/Galio, MR against TF/Heimer, MP5 against Yi. Morg either AP/level or MR on preference. Masteries: 24/0/6, 21/9 against Yi. Summoners: Teleport, either Teleport or Ignite vs. Yi Starting Items: Dring Skill order: E>Q>W
Morgana Morgana is just about my least favorite matchup as Lux, not necessarily because it's the hardest, but because it is the most frustrating. If you're going to kill her, it has to be before level 4 and it has to be with a jungle gank. Otherwise she will spellshield your snare and you will never get a kill. She also pushes harder than you early game, and if she gets a snare on you while she has her ult, it is a fairly guaranteed kill.
Take Teleport, tell your jungler to stay away from mid lane, just outpush her as hard as you can, and focus on roaming and ganking better than her, making use of Teleport to do so.
Level 2-3 Kill Lanes
These champions are very strong at levels 2 and 3 and will try to kill you with an all in. Do not leash for your jungler against these champions, go straight to the lane and auto them as much as you can level 1. Once they're about to hit level 2 back off, farm, and watch for their all in. If you don't die by the time you get blue buff you will usually have enough resistances to trade with them safely.
You can tell when Wukong switches to his clone at times because your passive will suddenly disappear from him.
Runes: MR vs. Fizz, MP5 vs. ADs Masteries: 21/9/0 Summoners: Barrier Starting Items: Dring vs. Fizz, Dring or Cloth Armor vs. others (depends on enemy jungle and how cheesy the enemy runes/masteries look) Skill order: Q>W>E
Jarvan IV This guy deserves special mention because he is probably the single hardest lane opponent for Lux to survive. He can flag toss while snared, his ultimate will at minimum force a flash and is a kill if it's down, he does a lot of damage early game and he sets up ganks very well. He's a dick.
Luckily he also falls off quite hard, so just do your best to never die in this matchup. It's okay to be behind in farm if Jarvan isn't getting kills.
Post 6 Snowball Lanes
In these matchups you can afford to be very aggressive in the early lane, but the dynamic of the lane totally changes after they hit 6. If you are ahead enough by level 6 these lanes can be easy post 6, but if you die or don't deny their farm pre 6 they can be quite hard. Aside from Zed and Yasuo, all of these champions are essentially free kills pre 6 if you get a gank. I typically will request an early gank in these matchups.
Personally I've had a bit of trouble with AP Kog'Maw, but better players say he's a pushover so it might just be me, and he may belong in Easy. Another thing worth noting is that your ultimate does bypass Yasuo's Wind Wall.
Runes: MR/level against APs, MP5 against ADs Masteries: 24/0/6 against APs, 21/9 against ADs Summoners: Exhaust vs. Zed/Yasuo, Barrier vs. Akali, Heal vs. Diana/Kassadin/Kog Starting Items: Dring Skill order: E>Q>W, optional E>Q>E if winning lane hard at 3
Zed In terms of trading and fighting Zed, he's not much different from other matchups of this variety. You will win trades pre 6 and can afford to be very aggressive, and post 6 you have to play around his ultimate. Save Q and only use it if he jumps to a shadow or ults to try to get on you.
What makes Zed difficult in comparison to other matchups of this type is that even if you're beating him hard in the early lane, he can safe farm with shurikens very well, and if you're ahead he can just ignore you and farm wraiths instead of fighting. Unfortunately there's not a lot you can do about it.
Passive Lanes
While Lux is capable of beating these champions and capable of farming safely, you will have to play on the defensive for the entirety of the lane in these matchups. These guys you generally either A - outscale, or B - can kill very easily with a jungle gank, so stay safe and wait for opportunities.
Leblanc's clone will not have your passive on it when it spawns. Pantheon's passive will prevent autoattacks from proccing your passive. Annie is especially frightening at level 6 and will flash engage on you if she can.
Tristana only fits in this category if she's AP. If AD she belongs with Caitlyn and Ezreal in Even Lanes.
Runes: MR vs. APs or mixed damage (Kayle), MP5 vs. ADs Masteries: 21/9 Summoners: Heal vs Velkoz/Viktor/Ziggs/Karma, Barrier vs. Annie/Syndra/Talon/Tristana, others either Heal or Barrier on preference. Starting Items: Dring Skill order: E>Q>W
Kayle There are three big issues that make Kayle a difficult matchup. The main one is that after she hits 6, you can't kill her 1v1 anymore because she can ult to block your entire combo. The second issue is that you have to play around the cooldown on her E. While her E is down you can win trades with her, while it's up you can't. Finally, Kayle scales into late game better than you do, so even though she's such a tricky opponent, it's really on you to win the lane and have an advantage going into late game.
My best suggestion is to play a few Kayle games and get the hang of the timing on her E cooldown, so you know when these safe trade windows are, and try to win the lane by playing around her E.
Lulu Lulu is similar to Kayle in that after she hits 6, you can't really kill her 1v1 anymore. However, unlike Kayle Lulu is also just an incredible early game bully, but her damage doesn't scale into late game as well as yours. Focus on staying alive in this lane and winning teamfights later on.
Syndra Syndra just does an obscene amount of damage. She's a lot like an AP Tristana or an Annie, except she does more damage than they do and has a better late game. However, she is very easy to gank, and you have a stronger teamfight presence than she does, so focus on never fighting her 1v1, staying alive, and go aggressive in teamfights or with a jungle gank.
Offensively, Lux combos well with just about any jungler. She can set up good ganks for high damage low CC junglers, and can pair her ultimate with a junglers CC if her snare misses. She is also very good at baiting ganks with her shield and barrier.
Defensively, Lux is best against junglers that have to walk at you to start a gank. The above junglers have a very difficult time ganking you and will often either leave you alone or attempt to flash over your snare to try to start things. The second groups ganks are easy to stop pre 6, but ramp up to a more Medium difficulty once they have their ults. Warwick Especially does almost nothing before 6, but has respectable ult ganks.
On the other hand, these junglers can give you a lot of trouble, because they have ways to negate your snare and close distances quickly. Nautilus and Jarvan IV have multiple ranged gapclosers and can flag/anchor toss while snared. Elise Can still Rappel either to get to you or dodge your ult while snared.
Finally, this group has ultimates that allow them to get to you by bypassing your snare and/or wards, but without their ult they belong in a more Medium difficulty group. Fiddlesticks isn't so bad if you see him coming, but if he catches you by surprise his ult+fear is hard to stop. Vi and Nocturne It's important to shield yourself while they're dashing onto you with their ults, rather than trying to snare. You have to wait to snare them after they're already on top of you.
Junglers not listed above all belong in a Medium category. Maokai is interesting, you can bait his Twisted Advance and then flash under your tower and snare him.
Shaco, Rengar, Kha'Zix and Evelynn are a bit of a special case. They have a lot of damage, can get to you safely, but low CC, so they're very dangerous if you're overextended, but not a big deal if you're close to your own tower.
Thanks to Sufficiency and Eiii, we have actual data on Lux mined from the real game servers. This data covers all skill levels, so take it with a bit of a grain of salt. It mostly corroborates the above, but it's neat to look at all the same!
Reading the chart: Blue value = Winning matchup for Lux Red value = Losing matchup for Lux P value = Statistical reliability. Green means the data is reliable, yellow is somewhat unreliable.
The data is adjusted for each champions overall winrate. So, for example, according to this data, Lux wins 8.7% less often if Yasuo is on the enemy team, regardless of how often Lux and Yasuo win overall.
Matchups not listed there is not enough data for the numbers to be statistically reliable. Unfortunately since Lux is not very popular right now, there aren't enough games to draw a large list of reliable matchups from.
When playing with Lux, it's okay to be patient. Lux thrives in extended siege scenarios both as the attacker and as the defender, so waiting out a siege is typically to your teams advantage. Eventually she will snare a prime target and then you can go in. If you're the jungler, realize that Lux needs blue more than most APs. Critically in order for Lux to farm safely under tower in some matchups she requires blue buff, and taking it away from a Lux who is behind will likely mean she starts dying more often.
Playing against Lux is fairly simple, dodge snares. I know that's pretty crappy advice but it's true, if you dodge every single snare you shouldn't have a bad time. When laning against her avoid standing inside your minions, or moving between your tower and wall, as these are areas where she can harass you easily. Be aware that her skills have long cooldowns and if she misses something you have a window to trade safely with her. Also be aware that Lux is exceptionally good at baiting people under her tower, and can be difficult to dive. Finally, be aware that Lux can be blue buff reliant in some matchups, and stealing the enemy blue can hurt her more than trying to kill her in mid can.
In lane your main goal is going to be to get as much gold as possible from Spellthief, by hitting repeated E's from safe distances on enemy champions, while saving Q and W for emergencies. You won't win an extended trade so you want to stay safe and focus on harassing at max range. With the right lane partner your snare can open up a big damage combo for your Marksman.
Once you hit level 6 you can start being more aggressive. With a high ability damage ADC like Graves or Jinx a snare at level 6 can mean an instant kill.
Mid Game
Teamfights as support Lux work differently from teamfights as solo lane Lux. You want to use your Q and E only to peel, not to set up kills. Focus on getting good shields and keeping people alive with your spells, using your ultimate at the start of the fight to hit as many people as possible. If building utility your level 1 E basically won't do any damage, so use it often as a temporary ward before a fight, and when fights start leave it on the ground as a slow field.
It's okay here to use an ult to clear a creep wave and push a lane up, allowing your team to apply more pressure elsewhere on the map.
Late Game
Once you've gotten a few levels in Q and E, you're going to start doing respectable damage and can transition yourself to playing more like a solo lane AP Lux and less like a support Lux. You really shine as a support here because the later the game goes on the better you will become, while other supports will start to lose their edge.
Ideally as Lux you want to pair with a Marksman who can do burst damage to a snared target. Ezreal and Caitlyn probably work the best, since they have burst damage but also safe harass, allowing them to work with your harass oriented playstyle. There are a number of reasonable options though. Everyone not listed above has no real synergy with Lux good or bad, and fits somewhere between the Decent and Poor categories.
Vayne and Tristana may be the worst Marksmen to pair with Lux, since without perfect synergy they'll have the nasty habit of jumping away from your shields and knocking enemies away from your snares in fights.
Enemy Supports
Lux is fairly squishy early game, and will fold under pressure vs. hard engage, so she's scared of high threat early game supports like the ones above. In general, Lux support has the most trouble in the very early lane, and is best late in the game, so she works best against supports that can't take advantage of her early game weaknesses. Anything not listed is more of a medium difficulty opponent.
Enemy Marksmen
As far as enemy Marksmen, Lux is best against people with no escape tools, and worst against people with good escape tools. Anyone not listed belongs in more of a Medium category. Note that Sivir can be difficult to combo with her spellshield, but you can bait it by throwing E's under her and not detonating them. Quinn's blind will make your autoattacks not proc your passive.
As Lux's lane partner, you need to be aware the Lux does not want to be starting fights, she wants to be following up on fights started by you or the enemy lane. She is however very good at following up on an engagement, so take the initiative in the lane and let Lux follow through, rather than playing passive and waiting for a lucky snare.
When playing against support Lux, it is okay to be very aggressive early game. Especially at level 1 she has almost no defense and can't do much against a hard engagement. Lux will however scale into late game better than most supports and has a strong level 6 damage combo, so taking control of the lane early in the game is important. Later in the game when she has damage items you need to treat her like a solo lane Lux and dodge snares. If you don't get hit by snares it's hard for her to hurt you.
This section shows a few more specific, technical tricks that should help out newer players, or ones who aren't so familiar with Lux's spells. Lux isn't a very mechanically complicated champion like Riven or Lee Sin, but she does have a couple bright decisions in her repertoire.
Flashing into Prismatic Barrier The standard trick with Lux's shield is to throw it in the direction you're running away, so the second shield will hit you faster as you run into it. This is pretty basic stuff, but in an emergency you can also flash into or past the shield particle, which will give you the second shield immediately. This is a very rarely used trick but every once in a while it can save you from the last tick of an Ignite or an autoattack that you know will kill but hasn't quite hit you yet.
Prismatic Barrier and Zhonyas Your shield works a little bit strangely with Zhonyas Hourglass. If another character uses Zhonya and you try to shield them while they're in stasis, it doesn't work. However, when the shield particle comes back to you it DOES give you the shield even if you're in the middle of stasis. Stasis lasts 2.5 seconds which is the same time it takes the shield to get back to you if you're standing still.
What this means is if you get caught in a fight, you can shield yourself, wait till the enemy team breaks your first shield, and then use Zhonyas. Your second shield will hit you and activate while you're still in stasis and you'll have it the moment you come out.
Using Lucent Singularity for Vision Your E will see into any bush that it just barely touches. Knowing this, there are a few spots on the map where you can use it to see into two bushes at the same time, click the spoilers for the possible positions. There are also many spots in the jungle where throwing an E on top of a jungle wall will see things on both sides of the wall. + Show Spoiler [Dragon/Baron] +
Lucent Singularity levelup "exploit" One of the more mechanical tricks you can do with Lux, when levelling up in the early game, you should try to level Lucent Singularity after casting it but before detonating it. Throw out the E, press Ctrl+E immediately to level the ability while the orb is traveling, and then detonate it when it lands.
What this does is give that particular instance of the spell the mana cost of the lower rank but the damage of the higher rank. You can only do this trick once each time you level the skill and it only saves 15 mana, so it's not going to win you any games, but it's not hard to do with a bit of practice and it gives you a small advantage in the early lane.
1-2 Passive Combo Your standard combo is to throw out a Q and wait to see if it hits. If it does, cast E then R, and hit E again to detonate it right as the R channel finishes. Remember that you do NOT need to cast E and R before the snare hits, the snare will last long enough for you to wait and see if it's going to hit. If you can, autoattack them right after for a second passive proc.
If they use Zhonyas to dodge your ult, you can leave the Singularity on the ground and hit them with it when they come out of stasis.
3 Passive Combo Doing a 3 passive combo is more difficult, and generally requires you to be in more or less melee range with the opponent, but it can be good to do in duels with bruisers or when people facecheck you in a bush.
Snare the person with Q and then immediately cast R. After the R channel finishes throw an E under them and autoattack them. Right after the first autoattack hits detonate the E, the snare will usually end while your second autoattack is in the air, but at that point they can't stop it.
Being very close to them is important for doing a 3 passive combo correctly, because if they have tenacity and your autoattack has too long a travel time the snare will end in time for them to flash out of your E. You cast E after R in this combo so that if they do have a lot of CC reduction and try to flash away too early you can still follow them with the E.
Other Final Spark Interactions One of the most important things to know about Final Spark is that during the half second charge time, you can still use Barrier and Ignite. You'll get in many situations during your games where casting Barrier during the ult channel will buy you enough time to finish the channel and kill the other guy.
Final Spark is also uninterruptable by enemy CC, so in some cases you can time using it just as an enemy stun is about to land on you as a way of partially ignoring the stun.
Common Ult Spots Finally, I've put some common ult spots in the spoilers below. These spots let you hit buff camps and dragon/baron without being seen by common wards. + Show Spoiler [In Lane] +
Many players all the way up to challenger have the bad habit of moving here between their tower and wall when backing away. This spot is a free hit with all of your spells.
If they don't pull the buff out this spot will hit it without you being seen by common wards. If they do pull the buff out to the bush you have to move farther to the right and will be seen by a ward.
Both of these spots won't be seen by common wards, but it's a little easier to hit both the objective and the enemy team from the first spot than it is from the second.
Double Rainbow?! What does it mean?! Below is a collection of things that are not necessarily part of the guide, but still Lux related. We have things like champion lore and patch notes, as well as videos of professional players using my favorite champion.
Born to the prestigious Crownguards, the paragon family of Demacian service, Luxanna was destined for greatness. She grew up as the family's only daughter, and she immediately took to the advanced education and lavish parties required of families as high profile as the Crownguards. As Lux matured, it became clear that she was extraordinarily gifted. She could play tricks that made people believe they had seen things that did not actually exist. She could also hide in plain sight. Somehow, she was able to reverse engineer arcane magical spells after seeing them cast only once. She was hailed as a prodigy, drawing the affections of the Demacian government, military, and citizens alike.
As one of the youngest women to be tested by the College of Magic, she was discovered to possess a unique command over the powers of light. The young Lux viewed this as a great gift, something for her to embrace and use in the name of good. Realizing her unique skills, the Demacian military recruited and trained her in covert operations. She quickly became renowned for her daring achievements; the most dangerous of which found her deep in the chambers of the Noxian High Command. She extracted valuable inside information about the Noxus-Ionian conflict, earning her great favor with Demacians and Ionians alike. However, reconnaissance and surveillance was not for her. A light of her people, Lux's true calling was the League of Legends, where she could follow in her brother's footsteps and unleash her gifts as an inspiration for all of Demacia.
''Her guiding light makes enemies wary, but they should worry most when the light fades.'' - Garen, The Might of Demacia
Base Stats: Health345 (+79) Health regen. 4.5 (+0.55) Mana 250 (+50) Mana regen. 6.0 (+0.6) Range 550 Attack damage 50 (+3.3) Attack speed 0.625 (+1.36%) Armor 8 (+4) Magic res. 30 Mov. speed 330
Passive: Illumination: Lux's damaging spells charge any enemies with energy for 6 seconds. Lux's autoattacks or Final Spark will ignite the energy, dealing 10 + (8 x level) + 20% AP magic damage to the target.
Q: Light Binding: Lux releases a sphere of light in a line, striking up to two enemy units along its path. It deals magic damage to the first enemy it touches and half that damage to a second enemy behind it. Additionally, the first enemy struck is rooted for 2 seconds, and the second enemy is rooted for 1 second.
W: Prismatic Barrier: Lux shields herself for up to 3 seconds and throws out her wand in a line, applying the same shield to allied champions in its path. Her wand then returns to her, again shielding allied champions in its path and Lux herself upon return. When reapplied, the shield does not stack, but is refreshed.
E: Lucent Singularity: Lux sends an anomaly of twisted light to a target area, slowing enemies within 300 range and granting sight of a slightly larger area for up to 5 seconds. At the end of the duration or if Lucent Singularity is activated again, the zone will detonate and deal magic damage to enemies in the area.
R: Final Spark / Finales Funkeln After gathering energy for half a second, Lux fires a broad and long-range beam of light in a line that deals magic damage to all enemies in the area. Any enemies that are already marked by Illumination have it ignited for additional magic damage, then re-applied.
Sometimes a player will be able to flash while snared by Light Binding. This isn't a Lux exclusive bug, it happens with many abilities.
Bug #2
While Lux's ult cannot be cancelled during its cast, if Lux is physically moved during the cast time (by say, a Lee Sin kick), the Final Spark AOE will also be moved accordingly. However, the particle for the laser will not move, and will cause situations where it looks like the laser hit, but did no damage, or situations where someone outside the laser AOE takes damage.
This is contrary to other charge-time ultimates that can't be interrupted (such as Ezreal, Draven and Jinx ults) where moving them during the cast time does not alter the trajectory of the missile.
Bug #3
If Lux is killed just as she's finishing the cast of her ultimate, it's possible for the laser particle to appear, but do no damage and not go on cooldown.
Bug #4
When trying to cast Lucent Singularity over a wall, Lux will sometimes try to walk over the wall instead of casting the spell, even though the cast point is clearly in range. Casting the spell at just under max range will typically prevent this bug.
Credits Big thanks to: NeoIllusions, Soniv and Atrioc for helping me edit the guide Sufficiency and Eiii for statistical data Dae for being a D1 Lux player and giving his input Shurelya and Riot for making such a cool champion and a great game.
I like this champion. I hate her lack of sustained damage but I still like this champion too much.
I really like barrier Lux in mid. I found that triple shield really helps make your low mobility less of a liability against gank attempts. Like, just Barrier summoner is meh, and just W is also meh, but two together can help you survive lots of shit.
If you wanna play Lux support, Ezrael Lux bot lane has the bonus fun of trueshot barrage + laser. Stay somewhat passive until 6 then wait for an opportunity to unload your ridiculous long-ranged burst on something. Preferably onto both enemy botlaners to transition into winning lane. Also helps that both ults are low cooldown so you can use both again like 80 seconds later
I think Lux mid was nice with Janna or Soraka back in S3 when heal ult + W (+locket) meant preventing/erasing a fuckton of teamfight damage given correct positioning, but I haven't done much Lux mid in S4 so dunno how well that sort of thing would fly now.
Does Lux's auto outrange Kayle E/Q? I feel like it does, which is why I'd disagree that Kayle is a hard MU. Whenever she tries to go in on you just snare and poke her while she sits useless. I've never had trouble here, actually I try to counter Kayle by picking Lux because of how easy I feel the lane is. Sure, she outscales, but Kayle does that to pretty much every midlane right now.
Granted I could be wrong / playing against bad Kayle players.
Nice guide, I used to love Lux but have recently been cheating on her with Ziggs. He really just seems like a stronger version of a similar role, what kind of situations would you recommend picking Lux over Ziggs?
Kayle Q has 650 range and slows, so generally if you move in to auto her and pop a passive she'll slow you and start doing her thing. I don't think Kayle counters Lux by any means, but it's certainly a harder matchup because you have to win it by being very aware of Kayle's cooldowns and only going in when she can't use her E. You also can't snipe anyone on the enemy team while Kayle has her ultimate.
As far as Lux v. Ziggs, realistically I think Ziggs is about to get nerfed, which should bring Lux more into favor. They are similar champions, with Ziggs being more offense and sustained damage oriented and Lux being more defense and burst oriented. I'd probably prefer Lux over Ziggs against Yasuo, for what it's worth.
On January 22 2014 01:06 YouGotNothin wrote: Nice guide, I used to love Lux but have recently been cheating on her with Ziggs. He really just seems like a stronger version of a similar role, what kind of situations would you recommend picking Lux over Ziggs?
Right now, none. Ziggs is broken and top tier, Lux is just meh.
On January 22 2014 00:48 InfSunday wrote: Does Lux's auto outrange Kayle E/Q? I feel like it does, which is why I'd disagree that Kayle is a hard MU. Whenever she tries to go in on you just snare and poke her while she sits useless. I've never had trouble here, actually I try to counter Kayle by picking Lux because of how easy I feel the lane is. Sure, she outscales, but Kayle does that to pretty much every midlane right now.
Granted I could be wrong / playing against bad Kayle players.
The problem about Kayle is that you cant kill her. A good kayle will just ult your ult and without your ult you don't have enough damage to kill. This goes in teamfights and when you try and catch people while seiging as well, Whereas if she dodges one of your q's with her speed buff and land a q on you you are often dead.
Also, I would argue that Kassadin is a hard counter to Lux. Even thought the early laning phase is pretty even, maybe even slightly in luxes favor, once her gets some items he can kill you at will whether solo or in teamfights, and you do laughable damage to him, even if you hit everything which is very hard to do with his silence and r.
I would NEVER pick Lux into Kassadin, and often times when I get counterpicked by it I would take Lux support rather then mid.
On January 22 2014 02:17 Ketara wrote: I'm interested in what you think about my catagorization of the matchups, Dae.
I would say Kog would be an easy aggressive lane, as he is rather squishy and killable early, even after 6.
I would put Kassadin into his own "Abandon hope all yee who enter here" category.
Every Single ad mid laner that can build a hexdrinker first I would put into a hard Passive lane, since once they get a hexdrinker you can't solokill them anymore. Ezreal in particular just stomps Lux pretty hard. Hexdrinker shielding more then level 1 Lux ult makes me really really sad.
Other then that. pretty much all the placements make sense.
This just makes me remember why I stopped picking Lux, since there are so many things mid that are just hell for her to deal with :-(.
I don't think I've ever fought against a Hexdrinker Ezreal. Mine are always either AP and you beat them by shoving the wave constantly, or AD rushing some sort of blue build. Hexdrinker Ezreal does sound like it could be mean.
Part of the reason why I put Kassadin in the Medium category instead of the Hard category is because I think the Kassadin changes currently on PBE will make it a much easier matchup than it is right now. Also partly because the guide is more aimed towards beginners and not towards high diamond, and I think the quality of Kassadin players changes a lot between leagues.
Kog I think might belong in easy. I waffled a bit between putting him in easy and putting him in medium.
I kind of disagree with the Gragas/Ori placements in the matchups. Gragas is a pain in the butt, even if you stall out the matchup as best you can, he's a complete prick. I feel like Lux vs Ori favors Lux by default, and very occasionally you'll run into a god tier Ori who is difficult to deal with, but they're fairly rare.
On January 23 2014 06:31 Micromnky wrote: Why no morellos?
For mid, Morellos by itself isn't enough mana regen. You either need Athenes, or you need Morellos + Tear, and I don't like the Morellos + Tear build because I feel like it's too weak in the mid game when Lux is the strongest.
For support, Talisman gives you 30% CDR with masteries and all the regen you need, so Morellos is both wasted regen and wasted CDR.
On January 23 2014 06:31 Micromnky wrote: Why no morellos?
For mid, Morellos by itself isn't enough mana regen. You either need Athenes, or you need Morellos + Tear, and I don't like the Morellos + Tear build because I feel like it's too weak in the mid game when Lux is the strongest.
For support, Talisman gives you 30% CDR with masteries and all the regen you need, so Morellos is both wasted regen and wasted CDR.
If you had like, a jungle Karthus who you know is going to need all the blue buffs, Morello+Athene might not be a bad option.
If you're ever going to be getting blue buffs I think Morello+Athene is just far, far too much regen and overcaps your CDR. I know Dae used to build that way in some games and he's our resident Diamond 1 Lux player, we could ask him what he thinks about it.
Also worth noting that Morello+Athene will prevent you from hitting the mid game timing of Athene+Deathcap which allows you to one shot caster minions with E and roam more. If you go Morello+Athene you're basically saying I'm never going to roam and that will be made up for by my jungler taking blue.
On January 23 2014 08:48 Ketara wrote: If you had like, a jungle Karthus who you know is going to need all the blue buffs, Morello+Athene might not be a bad option.
If you're ever going to be getting blue buffs I think Morello+Athene is just far, far too much regen and overcaps your CDR. I know Dae used to build that way in some games and he's our resident Diamond 1 Lux player, we could ask him what he thinks about it.
Also worth noting that Morello+Athene will prevent you from hitting the mid game timing of Athene+Deathcap which allows you to one shot caster minions with E and roam more. If you go Morello+Athene you're basically saying I'm never going to roam and that will be made up for by my jungler taking blue.
I used to go tear/morellos/athenes before ult nerf so that I could literally ult farm every wave. This no longer works, so the build is really bad now.
I don't think 21/0/9 is bad persay. However, I've been valuing 30 extra seconds of blue buff less and less over the duration of my Lux games, especially as I've been getting to higher tier games and getting blue is less common (more fights over it the higher up you go.)
Basically what you're trading it for is Archmage, and 5% bonus AP is not all that amazing. However I do think it's better than more movespeed, and all together I think 5% AP is better than 20% buff duration and 1% movespeed. There are lanes where I'd value the movespeed very highly, like vs. Nidalee, but those are typically lanes where you don't need to have blue buff to farm so the buff duration is less important.
Further, the lanes where you need to have blue buff to farm you're typically going 21/9/0 anyway.
If you're using all your abilities on cooldown in a fight, you're using 48.5 mana per second at level 18. With just an Athenes and you regen 10.32 mana per second. This increases up to 100% as your mana goes down, so on average it's actually going to be 50% higher than that, at 15.48 mana per second. Basically, you're losing 33.02 mana per second. You have 1150 max mana, so this means that with no creep deaths and no player deaths you can continue spamming every spell on cooldown for 35 seconds.
Fights just don't last that long, so more mana is really overkill.
On January 23 2014 11:14 Ketara wrote: Here's a little math on Morello + Athene:
If you're using all your abilities on cooldown in a fight, you're using 48.5 mana per second at level 18. With just an Athenes and you regen 10.32 mana per second. This increases up to 100% as your mana goes down, so on average it's actually going to be 50% higher than that, at 15.48 mana per second. Basically, you're losing 33.02 mana per second. You have 1150 max mana, so this means that with no creep deaths and no player deaths you can continue spamming every spell on cooldown for 35 seconds.
Fights just don't last that long, so more mana is really overkill.
From what I've heard, Morello is still a good pickup vs. the big tanks that are popular right now, right? So if you have to deal with a Mundo/Shyv/Renek, picking it up 5/6 item wouldnt be a bad idea? Or is there a better item for that, as the CDR and mana regen would be wasted?
See, the issue here is you don't realize how amazing Spell Weaving and Blade Weaving are on Lux.
Lux's passive is coded as a spell, not as an on hit effect.
What this means is that, lets say you do a typical early game harassment combo of Q, dropping an E, autoing, detonating the E, then autoing again.
Your initial Q gives you one stack of blade weaving and increases autoattack damage by 1%.
The following autoattack increases spell damage by 1%, which counts towards your passive's damage immediately since it's a spell. The passive damage then gives you a second stack of blade weaving, so now your autoattack damage is up to +2%.
You then detonate the E, which has +1% damage and gives you a third stack of blade weaving. The second autoattack has +3% damage and the second passive proc has +2% damage.
At level 2, this increases your Q-auto-E-auto combo damage from 345 to 349. So basically an overall 1.1% increase in your damage. For two mastery points that's really kind of amazing, especially since if the trade goes on any longer than that you get +3% damage to your autoattacks.
The other issue here is that Feast is also amazing. 6.3 minions spawn every 30 seconds, meaning that if your CS is perfect Feast gives you 2.52 HP and 1.26 mana every 5 seconds. This is nearly 4x as cost efficient as the regen masteries in Defense and Utility. Even if you only get 50% CS it's more than cost efficient enough to pay the price of taking Butcher, which isn't all that bad a mastery.
CDR masteries are really kind of awful, especially on Lux who is gated by mana early in the game rather than by her cooldowns. More CDR means more mana consumption, making level 1 CDR bad on a champion that runs out of mana quickly. While 5% CDR is useful in the mid game, since you're getting 40% CDR with your item build anyway, the masteries become pointless later on. If I could trade the 2 CDR masteries you're required to get for two more points in Butcher I would, that's how bad they are.
Realistically I don't like mastery points that are not useful at all stages of the game. CDR masteries on Lux are both not useful early game and not useful late game.
I would suggest that if you're not AAing in lane a lot (a LOT), you're not playing Lux right early game.
You should be getting at least 5-10 autoattacks on the enemy champion before your first back, unless they're actually somebody with stronger autos than you like Teemo. If they're Melee it should be twice that many.
The only 550 ranged champions in the game with higher base AD are Ryze, Malzahar, Brand, Ziggs and Syndra, by less than 2. Basically that means that in any matchup if you hit them with a spell early you should walk up and trade autos.
You should also always be getting enough CS to make Feast worth it. If you're getting less than 50% of each creep wave you have problems that aren't related to masteries.
Also, do note that blue buff isn't 40% CDR anymore, it's only 10% now.
What do you think about a cloth armor start against some of the stronger AD mids like a Zed or Riven? Is the sustain from Flask enough or is the armor better in some niches like that?
I don't agree with your itemization. CDR is nice on Lux but not really the be all end all because you typically have to wait in order to get your skills off at the right angles/positions. Additionally CDR means more MP5 used and needed.
On top of this, Lux has so little AP scaling in comparison to her base damage(especially early when she relies more on passive procs) that it makes absolutely no sense to not get haunting guise and go Mpen heavy.
Basically, why not Double Dorans into Sorc+Guise into Deathcap(if you need to clear)/Void (if you need to clear champions)
Double Dorans+ Guise costs 2285 Gold provides 320 HP, 8 MP/Minion(equivalent to 8 MP/5 if you get a full wave), 6 MP/5, 55 AP, and 15 Mpen.
Athenes provides 60 AP, 40 MR, 15 MP/5, 20% CDR and the Athenes passive for 2600 gold.
Assume for a second you've got base MR only and the enemy has 30 total Mpen. So that the Athenes MR bonus has maximum value. If you take 100% of your damage from magic damage sources then Athenes is better defensively than Double Doran's + Guise at level 6. But if you take near any proportion of that from physical damage, have other sources of MR, or the enemy doesn't have 30 Mpen then you're better off with the HP from the Guise path until far into the mid to lategame.
So basically:
Pros:
Double Dorans + Guise has a better build path than Athenes because its individual items are stronger.
Double Dorans + Guise provides similar(but not quite as strong) mana characteristics to Athenes when killing creeps
Double Dorans + Guise does more damage than Athenes: Additionally the damage is up front rather than requiring a fight to go on for longer than a single combo.
Double Dorans + Guise gets to its critical point faster because its cheaper.
Double Dorans + Guise has better synergy with the upcoming Void Staff purchase due to the power of stacked penetration.
Cons:
Less ability to spam in siege/poke wars if/because you're not able to last hit creeps
No CDR means fewer ults (even if they are commensurately more powerful and sooner)
So, here's some math for why that's not enough mana regen on Lux.
Lets say you're in the mid game, you're level 9. You're using one rank 5 E every 10 seconds, either to harass the enemy champion, farm creeps, do wraiths, etc.
You're using 13 mana per second with that setup.
You regen 4.08 mana per second, and if you get 100% CS, your two rings gives you another 1.68. Ultimately, you are losing 7.24 mana per second. You want to save enough mana for a Q, a W and an R, so your available mana pool for harassing and farming is 480.
This means you are running out of mana every 66 seconds, and have to go back to base every other creep wave. Getting an Athenes means you run out of mana every 118 seconds.
Defensively, Lux scales better with resistances than she does with HP, because you have the highest base value non ultimate shield in the game, and barrier. So the MR on Chalice is more valuable than the HP on guise.
Finally, CDR is what lets you do things like solo blue buff, do wraith camps, farm while behind (if you're being zoned you have to do 2 E's per creep wave which requires minimum 20% CDR.), etc.
Going Chalice also has a stronger early game, because the Flask opening is better than Dorans Ring on Lux, which I've already ranted about in the guide. Chalice is probably stronger than double Dorans for the same reason.
Why are you using 1 rank 5 E every 10 seconds? I mean without blue buff you're proposing that you should use your E on cooldown(with the double dorans+guise setup). Which is kind of ridiculous.
At most you need 1 rank 5 E to clear caster minions. You don't use skills as/if you roam so you use 2 rank 5 E's to clear a wave at most and then roam and regain mana or you use 1 and and just use less mana.
The CDR is nice for soloing blue buff but eh, i've never had an issue with it.
Edit: If you only use 2 E's every 30 seconds then you run out of mana to do your full combo in ~164 seconds. Which is long enough to get blue buff again.
Hi guys, nice to see this new threat since I just started playing support Lux recently and I think she is just awesome. But I was wondering one thing, is it better to max her W for dmg absorption first or her E for slow + dmg + passiv effect first? My mate is mainly playing Caitlin or hybrid Teemo, sometimes Ashe.
Edit: I know Op says max W first, but I think the slow is very powerful especially since Teemo has no stun/slow and I think my slow stacks with Ashe´s slow.
You're going to use one E on every creep wave, and it is going to be the same number of autos after the E to kill minions regardless, so the question is how many you're going to use to harass the enemy mid.
Lets say with a double dorans guise build you use 1.5 E's per 30 seconds to harass the enemy mid.
With this setup you use 10.8 mana per second, so you're losing 5.04 mana per second. This keeps you in lane for 95 seconds before running out of mana.
With 2x dorans, a guise and standard runes/masteries, 1.5 rank 5 E's will do 622.5 damage. Lets say the target has 70 MR, which is normal for that stage of the game. So with the added Mpen, the final damage is 485.55.
With an Athenes, 2 rank 5 E's will do 838.54 damage. Counting Mpen we're now at 578.59.
So, ultimately, even if Athenes gave 0 CDR, it would outdamage double Dorans + Guise by almost 20%, while simultaneously giving more mana regen even if you hit 100% of your spells and got 100% CS with the double Dorans, which is unrealistic for a typical game. It also gives better defensive statistics.
On January 24 2014 05:19 Ketara wrote: Lets say with a double dorans guise build you use 1.5 E's per 30 seconds to harass the enemy mid.
With this setup you use 10.8 mana per second, so you're losing 5.04 mana per second. This keeps you in lane for 95 seconds before running out of mana.
So let me ge this right.
3 E's in 30 seconds is 13 Mana Per Second
1.5 E's in 30 seconds is 10.8 mana per second
Is something wrong with your math?
If I use E once in 30 seconds then the MP/1 is 4.33.
If i use E twice in 30 seconds then its 8.66 MP/1
If i use E three times in 30 seconds then its 13.0 MP/1
1.5 E's in 30 seconds in is 6.5 Mana per second. Not 10.8. With double dorans and good CS you won't ever run out of mana using 1.5 E's per 30 seconds.
Edit: Oh are you suggesting 2.5 E's per 30 seconds? Yea that would be about right. Still a bit more than you really need though, so long as you don't have blue buff. 20 seconds of mana stability is pretty decent tradeoff for ~20% more damage.
Currently I would build Lux 1 of three ways, depending on teamcomp.
If the other team is fairly tanky, and doesn't have alot of heroes that are burstable (probably most games this meta) I would most likely end up going athenes/deathcap/voidstaff/etc. This is just a solid farming/utility build that gets capped cdr with blue and basically has no mana problems. You can defend mid tower for a really long time with this. (20% blue duration not needed really)
If I'm against a midlaner thats fairly squishy, and the other team has more easy targets, I would go for a more burst oriented build. This is usually tear/haunting/deathcap/void/aa/lichbane(morellos somewhere after or in here). With this build, you would have only cdr from blue/masteries, so the increased blue buff duration is a big deal. Depending on the game I might drop tear if I need the strength, or haunting if I don't need the survivability.
All of these builds are flexable and rely heavily on how the game is going. If I'm against an ad mid I'd usually go the tear build since athenes seems like a waste. If I'm against people that can jump on me and kill me easily cdr is somewhat a waste since you only get 1 rotation off before you die, and haunting is a really good item.
You guys keep argueing about the numbers when its really that you just need enough mana to keep your tower alive, and then add burst or sustained damge/utility as needed, with defensive items corresponding to your lane opponent. You can get by building pure ap and no mana items/masteries, but it really isn't fun, and alot harder to manage your mana when every spell matters.
It's not about what you can get by with, it's about what's better. That's why the math is important.
Mathematically, mana regen is the best stat for increasing damage on Lux, which is why we buy mana regen items first.
I do agree that getting Athenes vs. a zero AP team is not so great. Tear+Morellos might be better in that situation, but I dunno. It'd be worth trying out I suppose. I just don't like that build at all, Tear on Lux stacks so slowly. I much prefer getting Athenes and then using the extra item slot to grab a chain vest to make it so you never die, since all AD teams are usually assassin heavy.
On January 24 2014 06:16 Ketara wrote: It's not about what you can get by with, it's about what's better. That's why the math is important.
Mathematically, mana regen is the best stat for increasing damage on Lux, which is why we buy mana regen items first.
I do agree that getting Athenes vs. a zero AP team is not so great. Tear+Morellos might be better in that situation, but I dunno. It'd be worth trying out I suppose. I just don't like that build at all, Tear on Lux stacks so slowly.
"Mathematically" mana regen is the best stat for increasing damage on near any mana champion if and only if the enemy sits around and eats continued damage from abilities which use mana and you haven't saturated your mana regen. That doesn't mean that burst champions should build mana or CDR.
If you have a one skill rotation window(I.E. after your skill rotation the enemy can leave, take pots, heal, or kill you before your next skill rotation), maxing damage is always more efficient. This is because it increases your ability to get a kill, limits the enemies re-engage potential, will force more instances where the enemy must back even if they would otherwise have sustain.
Maybe this will make sense. Double Dorans into Guise costs 2285 gold, 315 gold cheaper than Athenes. With that gold you could buy 9 Mana potions for a total mana pool of 500 larger. It would nearly buy you a full flask (So, 180 mana/back). If you're still running out of mana with the cheaper option which has more damage there are swift and easy options to fix that problem.
You can't buy a flask if you go double dorans into guise, you don't have enough item slots to do it.
Boots+Flask+2dorans+ward+guise = 6 item slots. When you start your deathcap you're selling something. You have a trinket now, but you still have to be buying wards.
You also in general don't have enough extra item slots to be buying mana potions with that build.
I don't think you should think of Lux as a burst champion. She does burst damage in a fight, but in lane she doesn't 100-0 people the way a Syndra or a Leblanc or a Zed can. What she does is constant harassment to get them down to 50% or so and then snare for a kill.
You need to think of her as a long range harassment/poke champion in lane, which means the more spells you can cast the more pressure you can apply and the more damage you can do. This is especially true for Lux because she has pretty nearly the longest range harassment skill in the game. If the opponent is getting CS you're in range to be aggressively harassing them.
On January 24 2014 01:15 Ketara wrote: I would suggest that if you're not AAing in lane a lot (a LOT), you're not playing Lux right early game.
You should be getting at least 5-10 autoattacks on the enemy champion before your first back, unless they're actually somebody with stronger autos than you like Teemo. If they're Melee it should be twice that many.
The only 550 ranged champions in the game with higher base AD are Ryze, Malzahar, Brand, Ziggs and Syndra, by less than 2. Basically that means that in any matchup if you hit them with a spell early you should walk up and trade autos.
You should also always be getting enough CS to make Feast worth it. If you're getting less than 50% of each creep wave you have problems that aren't related to masteries.
Also, do note that blue buff isn't 40% CDR anymore, it's only 10% now.
I AA in lane alot, but not in successive order like your math for spell/blade weaving requires. You're assuming you're doing something like this: auto spell auto spell auto
usually the most I will be able to do is 1 auto because most are smart enough not to trade AA's with lux. I'm not saying weaving masteries + feast is bad. I understand that they are good. I just don't see how they are better than 30 sec more uptime on blue buff + extra 2.5% CD. I also forgot to mention the 10% summoner cd reduction which is pretty nice. It's a full 30 seconds off flash and 21 seconds off barrier.
I guess your masteries set up is better if you're planning to farm out the lane while trading a bit but I believe my mastery set up allows for more aggressiveness and taking control of the lane.
Vs someone who doesn't have my masteries, I will have a huge advantage during the 30 seconds I have blue buff or flash or 21 seconds I have barrier. It is also much more useful come lategame.
You're really confusing me here. You're suggesting that buff duration and CDR masteries will be helpful late game, when lategame you'll be CDR capped without any masteries and won't be taking blue buff.
Typically what you do is get the fiendish codex and start chugging blue pots then, only finishing the DFG later on.
12-12.5k gold depending on how many wards you buy is the point where you get 40% CDR by yourself, which you can get by 30 minutes if you're doing well. With blue buff you can have 40% at 11k. It's not as late game as you might think.
Essentially, CDR masteries are only useful when you have Athenes but aren't CDR capped yet. You get Athenes at about 4200 gold counting a couple wards, which again if you're doing well typically takes at least 15 minutes.
So your CDR masteries are only useful between the 15 minute and 30-35 minute period of the game. For most games that is less than half of the total game time.
Using your masteries to get more regen and more damage at all stages of the game is a much better option.
Basically, in a broad sense, CDR is only useful if you have the mana to cast spells more often. If you're already in a situation where you're forced to not use spells on cooldown because of mana problems, making those cooldowns come up faster is not helping you.
Lux has incredible mana problems early game, even to the extent where Chalice by itself isn't enough regen. But once she gets an Athenes those problems go away. Then she starts being limited by her long cooldowns and wants CDR. This is why Athenes is such an amazing first item on her because it gives both at once.
Realistically the CDR mastery is already bad. It already doesn't increase her overall damage output as much as almost any other mastery. But it's even worse on Lux, who in the very early game is limited by mana rather than her cooldowns, and in the very late game should be CDR capped without the mastery.
Going back to krndandaman's proposed mastery build, he suggested not taking Feast and Butcher in favor of more CDR. The thing is, even though Butcher is next to useless on Lux, the Feast mastery point is so efficient it's really worth spending 2 points to get it, and also gives Lux regen that she desperately needs right at level 1. Feast gives you a huge advantage in the initial laning, it's like starting the game with an extra potion.
Unrelated to the discussion, I'm becoming convinced that Lux is a pretty good counter to mid Yasuo. I've played the matchup 7 or 8 times now and every time I stomp him out of the lane really hard. I've gotten several kills on season 3 Diamond Yasuo players at level 3 or 4 at this point.
You just walk up and auto him and he can't do anything about it. There's no way for him to win a trade with you before he hits 6 and if you're always in his face he can't CS.
On January 25 2014 10:32 Ketara wrote: Unrelated to the discussion, I'm becoming convinced that Lux is a pretty good counter to mid Yasuo. I've played the matchup 7 or 8 times now and every time I stomp him out of the lane really hard. I've gotten several kills on season 3 Diamond Yasuo players at level 3 or 4 at this point.
You just walk up and auto him and he can't do anything about it. There's no way for him to win a trade with you before he hits 6 and if you're always in his face he can't CS.
He jumps onto you and does 1/2 your health in 2 autos. He can dodge all your skillshots by jumping on minions.
Yasuo is a pretty freaking hard counter to Lux mid, you should NEVER hit him with a skillshot unless hes bad.
Typically in my games he tries to jump onto me at level 2 or 3 and dies or crawls back at sub 100 health with no potion left.
His dash always goes the same distance and moves pretty slow, and if you snare him during the dash he stops immediately. I've found him real easy to snare mid dash or at the end of a dash.
Yasuo should only beat Lux if he can wind wall her snare. Otherwise, Yasuo's primary advantage in lane, being able to hop in and out, using minions as cover while he harasses is negated by Lux's root, and he takes Lux's significant Passive damage.
On January 25 2014 12:24 dae wrote: So, what are your guys opinion on faith combos? (This is casting e/r on the assumption that the q you just cast will hit)
They look so pretty and smooth when you land it, but you can also look really silly and miss all spells.
Its really the only way to combo people with stuff like windwall/rappel/pool though (hit them before they can react)
I never do it. I'm not confident enough in my Q's to start the combo before the Q hits.
In the case of Yasuo, the ult at least will hit anyway. I've also noticed you can sometimes drop the E right at the windwall and it will still detonate and hit him. According to LoL Wiki the wind wall is placed 400 range away and Lux E is 300 radius, but I have dropped it in front of the wall and hit him with it before, it seems like the range he places it at depends on the direction he points it.
My .02 on the yasuo matchup, pre6, it's manageable. you can get good harass down as long as you're on top of hitting sillshots. post6 it gets a little dicey as if he lands a q knockout, you're going for a ride, you might not come out of. I personally don't really enjoy it because I feel as if the yasuo is mediocre, his windwall will completely shut you down. combined with the fact that he can spam q knockups from range, and just spam r hoping it actually connects and Whoosh! free kill.
If there was one change I'd actually say yasuo needs, is just take away the smartcast from his R. Make it a targeted ability so it would add some skill and reaction to it. not just, rrrrrrrrrrrrrrr OH YEAH SOMEONE GOT KNOCKEDUP BOOM.
Anyway. Thanks for the guide Ketara. Swapping morello for voidstaff in my build did wonders, I feel dumb for not thinking about it before, haha.
So we had this conversation yesterday in the in-houses and didn't really come to an agreement, so I'm just going to throw out the question for the better guys before I say what I think about it:
Realistically the way you fight Swain as Lux is by stealing his blue buff, which Lux is very good at. If you steal blue then it's an easy matchup. If you don't then Lux can farm all she wants and she can kill Swain with a gank, but if she positions poorly Swain can dumpster her real hard so the burden is on the Lux player to not screw up.
IMO it's a Lux favored matchup if the Lux plays well, but if she plays badly Swain has a lot of kill potential.
On January 26 2014 04:21 InfSunday wrote: So we had this conversation yesterday in the in-houses and didn't really come to an agreement, so I'm just going to throw out the question for the better guys before I say what I think about it:
Lux vs. Swain. Favored for whom and why?
Basically, neither of them solo pose a real threat to the other (Swain can't get to lux, and Lux doesnt have the damage to kill swain unless pretty far ahead) but in teamfights, Lux is just better just due to she can catch swain while hes walking in and swain has to walk in. Also, her shields do VERY well against his dots in teamfights.
Swain can bully Lux a bit in lane, and if you get caught by his snare (which you shouldnt) you can easily die, but imo swain is more easily ganked then Lux so it balances out.
Ok, that all essentially summarizes my thoughts. There was a person or two saying it was Swain favored matchup, I was really confused.
To be honest, though, I feel like Lux almost counters swain. Shield allows her to completely out trade him in almost all times in the game in both damage and mana, with early boots he should never snare you, and as you pointed out Lux's teamfighting is streets ahead of Swain's. I feel like if the players are even in skill the enemy jungler HAS to camp Swain for him to not fall behind in some way because snare is so much more reliable than grasping talons or w.e Swain's w is called. It just seems like Lux has infinitely more kill potential than the bird-man.
I can't really comment on the lane since I don't know anything about it, but comparing Lux and Swain teamfighting seems like comparing apples and oranges.
In S3 I did: chalice + kagepick -> sorc boots + athenes + morellos -> voidstaff -> dc
in S4, with the change to the masteries I'm thinking that chalice +guise -> cd boots + athenes + liandries -> voidstaff -> dc is the correct build.
I'm sure there are times when tear is actually good, but tear + athenes seesm like overkill for regen, while tear + morello's is too squishy against AP.
On January 26 2014 10:56 Cheap0 wrote: I can't really comment on the lane since I don't know anything about it, but comparing Lux and Swain teamfighting seems like comparing apples and oranges.
More like rotten apples and oranges
Lux is like the apple, splat and shatters all over you, gross
Swain is the orange, kind of a blob that hits you and then oozes all over you and you're finding the nasty for awhile afterwards
Lux wins because she has more range, her spells cast faster, but Nevermore + Decrepify are incredibly good if you have a cc jungler who allows you to land them. However, since Lux is known for her safe laning, she should *not* die to Swain ever.
I'm not sure that support Lux is strictly worse than support Zyra. I agree that Lux suffers a lot in the CC department, but she is much longer range than Zyra, allowing her to stay alive longer, a huge advantage with the new assist streaks. Her utility is superior as well: she can scout bushes from longer range, has an AoE shield, and can snipe fleeing champions / go for Baron/Dragon steals.
What really differentiates support Lux from support Zyra is the ult. They both have good free vision tools, they both have multi target snares at about the same range. Lux E is longer range than Zyra Q but Zyra Q is more damage since it has half the cooldown.
The big difference is that Lux ult requires that you build damage in order to be useful. Her shield somewhat requires that as well. Zyra's ult is free CC all the time and her plant and passive damage scales with level, meaning that while she can build damage, she doesn't need to.
If the AP support item were worth buying support Lux would be a lot better, but it's not. If they say, put 10% CDR on Frost Queens Claim or put an AP ratio on its active, I'd revisit support Lux.
Lux is more fun support though, getting that auto in after hitting an enemy with a spell feels so good (and its demoralizing and deadly as heck to your opponent if you're consistently getting that extra 20-50 damage proc during laning)
Lux is more snowbally and needs AP to be more useful eventually, and nothing is more frustrating than landing FF on a low enemy and being an amp tome away from killing them. If you don't your damage and everything she becomes pretty useless, whereas Zyra is more like Sona/other supports and her ult is enough to keep her relevant.
Magic penetration is too good to pass on Lux. In lane, her passive is a big component of her damage output. For any opponent which I think I have decent chance to win , I would like to go Chalice->guise->sorc build for ap or tear->seeker->guise for ad. It gives you an earlier power spike compared with the typical Athene/Rabadon build. You can delete your lane opponent in one combo. I am currently using flat cdr glyph and quits, which gives me 17.5 cdr at the beginning of the game with matery. Therefore I don't have to rush Athenes/Morello before I finish my Rabadons.
On January 29 2014 05:48 lega wrote: Magic penetration is too good to pass on Lux. In lane, her passive is a big component of her damage output. For any opponent which I think I have decent chance to win , I would like to go Chalice->guise->sorc build for ap or tear->seeker->guise for ad. It gives you an earlier power spike compared with the typical Athene/Rabadon build. You can delete your lane opponent in one combo. I am currently using flat cdr glyph and quits, which gives me 17.5 cdr at the beginning of the game with matery. Therefore I don't have to rush Athenes/Morello before I finish my Rabadons.
This is an interesting build. Let's examine this.
The first thing to note here is that you're going for offensive glyphs rather than magic resist, which is not the worst thing in the world on Lux. But for comparison sake rather than compare to MR glyph builds, I'm going to compare it to a build with flat AP glyphs.
In the early game, this build will be strictly inferior to getting AP glyphs/quints. As stated previously, Lux's early lane is inhibited by mana rather than by CDR, so by having CDR runes over AP, you're reducing your early laning effectiveness. That's pretty easy to see.
However, during the mid game it's a little bit more interesting. Athenes costs 2600g, while Chalice + Haunting Guise costs 2365. They're comparable.
At lets say level 9, we'll be looking at 105 AP 21 mpen with an Athenes build, and 40 AP 36 mpen with Chalice+Guise. That's counting sorc shoes, btw.
Your level 9 combo does 750+205% AP damage. I picked level 9 because it's about when you can expect to have these items if you're doing well. What does this look like against normal target MR?
82 MR (mr runes and athenes) Athene: 631.9 Chalice+Sorc: 597.4
So, going Athenes is actually giving you as much or more damage, more CDR, and more regen.
Haunting Guise does give you 200 HP, but at the same time, this Athenes build gives you 10 more MR and increases the strength of your shield by 45, so that doesn't mean as much as you might think.
After this point in the game going Athenes is going to jump ahead in efficiency. Once you get a Deathcap your AP in the Athenes build will start to scale multiplicitavely. You'll be forced to either get a 6th item Liandry since you went Haunting Guise, or sell the thing late game, neither of which is an attractive option. And since you went for Athenes plus CDR runes, once you start getting elixirs you'll be at 47.5% CDR which is inefficient.
Basically, this just isn't as good as going Athenes.
This thread so far has been an excellent and (mostly) civil discussion of Lux builds. I wish more guide threads were this good, thanks for all the input everyone. So far I am certainly convinced by Ketara's arguments and math. I will build Athene's first on Lux... once Ziggs gets nerfed into obscurity lol.
Like I said in my earlier post I used to build athenes + morello into voidstaff, but with the change to morello that removed kagepick I'm not sure if that's worth it anymore.
I can't see myself playing any lux build that doesn't get full CDR, it's too good for kiting.
edit:
CDR glyphs are pretty bad on lux imo. There's no reason to get CDR before you have sufficient mana regen, which is what makes athenes so good since it gives both.
But the power spike with just athene's isn't as good as with chalice + guise when you consider same glyphs/quints
On January 29 2014 05:48 lega wrote: Magic penetration is too good to pass on Lux. In lane, her passive is a big component of her damage output. For any opponent which I think I have decent chance to win , I would like to go Chalice->guise->sorc build for ap or tear->seeker->guise for ad. It gives you an earlier power spike compared with the typical Athene/Rabadon build. You can delete your lane opponent in one combo. I am currently using flat cdr glyph and quits, which gives me 17.5 cdr at the beginning of the game with matery. Therefore I don't have to rush Athenes/Morello before I finish my Rabadons.
This is an interesting build. Let's examine this.
The first thing to note here is that you're going for offensive glyphs rather than magic resist, which is not the worst thing in the world on Lux. But for comparison sake rather than compare to MR glyph builds, I'm going to compare it to a build with flat AP glyphs.
In the early game, this build will be strictly inferior to getting AP glyphs/quints. As stated previously, Lux's early lane is inhibited by mana rather than by CDR, so by having CDR runes over AP, you're reducing your early laning effectiveness. That's pretty easy to see.
However, during the mid game it's a little bit more interesting. Athenes costs 2600g, while Chalice + Haunting Guise costs 2365. They're comparable.
At lets say level 9, we'll be looking at 105 AP 21 mpen with an Athenes build, and 40 AP 36 mpen with Chalice+Guise. That's counting sorc shoes, btw.
Your level 9 combo does 750+205% AP damage. I picked level 9 because it's about when you can expect to have these items if you're doing well. What does this look like against normal target MR?
82 MR (mr runes and athenes) Athene: 631.9 Chalice+Sorc: 597.4
So, going Athenes is actually giving you as much or more damage, more CDR, and more regen.
Haunting Guise does give you 200 HP, but at the same time, this Athenes build gives you 10 more MR and increases the strength of your shield by 45, so that doesn't mean as much as you might think.
After this point in the game going Athenes is going to jump ahead in efficiency. Once you get a Deathcap your AP in the Athenes build will start to scale multiplicitavely. You'll be forced to either get a 6th item Liandry since you went Haunting Guise, or sell the thing late game, neither of which is an attractive option. And since you went for Athenes plus CDR runes, once you start getting elixirs you'll be at 47.5% CDR which is inefficient.
Basically, this just isn't as good as going Athenes.
I dont have time to do the math, but I just wanna point out that your calculation is not right. 1. the lv 9 combo damage for lux is 110 (lv 2 q)+240 (lv 5 e) +300(lv 1 ult) +300 (3 passive procs, in most cases you can get 2 procs at least) =950+ 2.05 ap. 2. you forget the 6% percentage penetration from mastery. If you repeat the calculation, I think it will favor Mpen way better. Not to mention Mpen build is also better in e+aa poke.
You will never get 3 passive procs in a combo. You rarely get two.
I did forget the 6% mpen, but it's not really going to make a big difference.
With the mpen:
Athenes vs. 42 MR: 845.9 Chalice + Guise vs. 42 MR: 834.6
In terms of E+auto damage (340+60% AP)
Athenes vs. 42 MR: 334.5 Chalice + Guise vs. 42 MR: 365.1
That looks better, but in terms of harass damage over time, it's important to also factor in your regen. With Athenes you have 8.82 mana/sec regen, while with just Chalice you have 6.42 mana/sec regen. With about an 8 sec cooldown on E, that means during the cooldown you regen 70.56 mana with Athenes (54% of an E) and 51.86 mana with Chalice (40% of an E).
So counting your regen over time into your overall damage the numbers look more like this:
Athenes: 515.13 Chalice + Guise: 511.14
So, even in terms of harass damage, Athenes is equal or better.
Two is almost certain. Since you ult can proc one, the only thing you have to do is to aa once after you hit anything. Getting 3 procs requires you aa twice during the combo, which is also easily achievable if you have flash or you start your combo close to the target.
Also I did a little bit math full combo 850+2.05 ap (2 procs) Athene+sorc vs 42 mr : 906.6 Guise+sorc vs 42 mr: 909.3
full combo 950+2.05 ap (3 procs) Athene+sorc : 991.7 Guise+sorc : 1006.9
e+aa harrass Athene+sorc : 343 Guise+sorc : 355
Mpen is worse against higher mr for sure. However mr does not prevent you from killing off laners, especially bot lane, who usually do not get any mr item early.
If the matchup is dangerous , like Leblanc or Fizz, Athene is definitely the superior build, since all you have to do is to farm and not to die. However if you wanna beat your opponent and/or roam early, guise is much cheaper, easier to build and provide more damage. Athene's build is underwhelming gold-wise before you can actually finish it.
Also avoiding Athene gives you more flexibility on itemization. Sometimes if I am doing good in lane, I go straight chalice->needless rod and finish rabadons as my first item. It snowballs you much harder than athene's. When you are behind, you can directly go to void staff instead of rabadons, since you already have enough flat mpen. You don't have to build an athene's and sit on it for another 10 min until you can afford a needless rod. Athene's is usually my 5th/6th one to finish, after void staff/zhonya.
Getting 3 passive procs on a person is basically impossible vs. a competant target unless you hit them with the E+auto and then snare them after. You don't have enough time during the snare duration to do it.
Lets say you have 10 ping.
At level 9 you have an attack speed of 0.7, so you attack once every 1.42 seconds.
R has a cast time of 0.5 seconds. E also has an unspecified cast time, lets say 0.1 seconds, it's small but it's there.
So, your target gets snared, right. You've got 10 ping, so when you see the snare hitting it's already been active for 0.1 seconds. You click E immediately, 10 more ping. 0.1 second cast time, so we're now at 0.3. Then you click R, 10 more ping followed by a 0.5 second cast time. We're at 0.9 seconds now.
You now have to auto the target, 10 more ping. After that you have to detonate the E, which is another 20 ping, 10 for seeing it on your screen and 10 for hitting the button, and then auto again which is another 10.
So basically, with 10 ping and absolutely no time lost while you make decisions and click these buttons, the time between your autoattacks has to be 0.7 seconds in order for you to detonate 3 passive hits while the target is snared. It's not, and it just doesn't happen. Your target flashes, it takes you a fraction of a second to realize the snare hit and press ER, the target has tenacity, etc.
If you had 0 ping, used smartcast and were Faker, or if your opponent was in Bronze, I think it could be possible. But realistically 3 passives in a combo just doesn't happen unless you E+auto them and then a couple seconds later Q+R.
It would also be possible if they gave Lux the Gragas and Ziggs treatment and let you detonate E's while they're in flight. I'd really like that buff.
With the build you're suggesting you're much worse in the early game and worse in the late game, and in the mid game have less regen and less CDR. The advantage is some HP and mid game damage that is situationally slightly higher and also situationally slightly lower but realistically about the same.
It's just not as good. I do not even need to try it out to think this.
On January 29 2014 09:14 Ketara wrote: Getting 3 passive procs on a person is basically impossible vs. a competant target unless you hit them with the E+auto and then snare them after. You don't have enough time during the snare duration to do it.
Lets say you have 10 ping.
At level 9 you have an attack speed of 0.7, so you attack once every 1.42 seconds.
R has a cast time of 0.5 seconds. E also has an unspecified cast time, lets say 0.1 seconds, it's small but it's there.
So, your target gets snared, right. You've got 10 ping, so when you see the snare hitting it's already been active for 0.1 seconds. You click E immediately, 10 more ping. 0.1 second cast time, so we're now at 0.3. Then you click R, 10 more ping followed by a 0.5 second cast time. We're at 0.9 seconds now.
You now have to auto the target, 10 more ping. After that you have to detonate the E, which is another 20 ping, 10 for seeing it on your screen and 10 for hitting the button, and then auto again which is another 10.
So basically, with 10 ping and absolutely no time lost while you make decisions and click these buttons, the time between your autoattacks has to be 0.7 seconds in order for you to detonate 3 passive hits while the target is snared. It's not, and it just doesn't happen. Your target flashes, it takes you a fraction of a second to realize the snare hit and press ER, the target has tenacity, etc.
If you had 0 ping, used smartcast and were Faker, or if your opponent was in Bronze, I think it could be possible. But realistically 3 passives in a combo just doesn't happen unless you E+auto them and then a couple seconds later Q+R.
It would also be possible if they gave Lux the Gragas and Ziggs treatment and let you detonate E's while they're in flight. I'd really like that buff.
You are basically saying that riven (Q right click AA)*3 combo is impossible. For lux combo, only the hitting snare part needs comfirmation (a lot of times I do faith combo, at least I always throw q and e together if I am confident), rest of them is just practicing. You can also move between AAs to close the distance and your e also slows the target. It is not easy to hit 3 procs for sure in all situations (merc, distance, flash, etc) for sure , but I don't understand why you rarely get 2 procs.
I'm really interested in what MMR you're playing in if you think it's even possible to hit 3 passives in a combo before they flash or do something to stop you. I'd like to see it.
On January 29 2014 09:54 Ketara wrote: I'm really interested in what MMR you're playing in if you think it's even possible to hit 3 passives in a combo before they flash or do something to stop you. I'd like to see it.
Maybe I am just bad, who knows!
You only need 2 autos to proc all 3. 1v1 doing something like snare e walkup auto pop e r auto is pretty easily done vs champions without tenacity.
Downside of walking up for the auto is it often puts you in range of their spells. You can do the entire above combo in slightly more time then snare duration.
You should always do this when people facecheck into you in a bush/you catch people at short range over walls, however.
On January 29 2014 09:54 Ketara wrote: I'm really interested in what MMR you're playing in if you think it's even possible to hit 3 passives in a combo before they flash or do something to stop you. I'd like to see it.
Maybe I am just bad, who knows!
You only need 2 autos to proc all 3. 1v1 doing something like snare e walkup auto pop e r auto is pretty easily done vs champions without tenacity.
Downside of walking up for the auto is it often puts you in range of their spells. You can do the entire above combo in slightly more time then snare duration.
You should always do this when people facecheck into you in a bush/you catch people at short range over walls, however.
But if it's longer than the snare duration, can't they flash the ult?
I've never been able to do something like that, but I just don't do faith combos unless people facecheck you in a bush like you said.
On January 29 2014 08:42 Ketara wrote: You get max CDR on Lux with Athene+DFG+blue elixir.
DFG on lux is like super last priority item... You basically never get max CDR then? I don't understand why you would chose to play mid-game without max-cdr, when it's basically the difference between casting 2 and 3 q's per fight and given that q is the set up for your ult, as well as incredible damage mitigation spell for your team. I think you're missing out.
On January 29 2014 08:50 Ketara wrote: You will never get 3 passive procs in a combo. You rarely get two.
I did forget the 6% mpen, but it's not really going to make a big difference.
With the mpen:
Athenes vs. 42 MR: 845.9 Chalice + Guise vs. 42 MR: 834.6
In terms of E+auto damage (340+60% AP)
Athenes vs. 42 MR: 334.5 Chalice + Guise vs. 42 MR: 365.1
That looks better, but in terms of harass damage over time, it's important to also factor in your regen. With Athenes you have 8.82 mana/sec regen, while with just Chalice you have 6.42 mana/sec regen. With about an 8 sec cooldown on E, that means during the cooldown you regen 70.56 mana with Athenes (54% of an E) and 51.86 mana with Chalice (40% of an E).
So counting your regen over time into your overall damage the numbers look more like this:
Athenes: 515.13 Chalice + Guise: 511.14
So, even in terms of harass damage, Athenes is equal or better.
I don't think this is fair, Athene's mana regen is very overrated in lanes where you get harassed back or tend to lose health since if you go back without having spent all your mana, you've basically wasted your money. chalice + guise is also 300 gold cheaper and gives you 200 health which helps to survive ganks and all-ins.
On January 29 2014 09:54 Ketara wrote: I'm really interested in what MMR you're playing in if you think it's even possible to hit 3 passives in a combo before they flash or do something to stop you. I'd like to see it.
Maybe I am just bad, who knows!
You only need 2 autos to proc all 3. 1v1 doing something like snare e walkup auto pop e r auto is pretty easily done vs champions without tenacity.
Downside of walking up for the auto is it often puts you in range of their spells. You can do the entire above combo in slightly more time then snare duration.
You should always do this when people facecheck into you in a bush/you catch people at short range over walls, however.
But if it's longer than the snare duration, can't they flash the ult?
I've never been able to do something like that, but I just don't do faith combos unless people facecheck you in a bush like you said.
With regards to flashing the ult, if you do it perfectly and are not THAT far away you can get it all off before snare duration is over. (0 tenacity) If they have tenacity yes, they can flash the ult if you do this.
You kinda need to start commiting when you throw the snare, since you wont have time otherwise. Alot of the time in lane I don't feel comfortable getting that close to them, since you kinda need to kill them in this combo otherwise they can turn on you (or at least get them low enough they have to run), since after its over your kinda dead in the water for 6 seconds.
Also, its rare the auto mid combo actually makes the difference between a kill and no kill, so its meh. (getting an auto off after combo and comboing without it is way faster and easier)
On January 29 2014 08:50 Ketara wrote: You will never get 3 passive procs in a combo. You rarely get two.
I did forget the 6% mpen, but it's not really going to make a big difference.
With the mpen:
Athenes vs. 42 MR: 845.9 Chalice + Guise vs. 42 MR: 834.6
In terms of E+auto damage (340+60% AP)
Athenes vs. 42 MR: 334.5 Chalice + Guise vs. 42 MR: 365.1
That looks better, but in terms of harass damage over time, it's important to also factor in your regen. With Athenes you have 8.82 mana/sec regen, while with just Chalice you have 6.42 mana/sec regen. With about an 8 sec cooldown on E, that means during the cooldown you regen 70.56 mana with Athenes (54% of an E) and 51.86 mana with Chalice (40% of an E).
So counting your regen over time into your overall damage the numbers look more like this:
Athenes: 515.13 Chalice + Guise: 511.14
So, even in terms of harass damage, Athenes is equal or better.
I don't think this is fair, Athene's mana regen is very overrated in lanes where you get harassed back or tend to lose health since if you go back without having spent all your mana, you've basically wasted your money. chalice + guise is also 300 gold cheaper and gives you 200 health which helps to survive ganks and all-ins.
Don't go chalice and guise, you do no damage on a hero that does no damage anyways, and you don't even have the cdr benefit that's one of the main reasons you buy Athenes for.
If your going burst go full burst and spend your first 900 damage on mana that doesn't help you kill stuff, get like sorcs or mejais instead (mejais kinda needed for full burst to scale through the game, or you just stop 1 comboing stuff eventually).
Seems like you're reliant on the mr/hp combo as a crutch to keep yourself alive. Lux is much more about vision and positioning to survive encounters, and not raw tankiness (often if your at a point where your tankiness matters you've already screwed up). Exceptions to this are nocturne, kassadin, leblanc, basically anyone that can gap close onto you at will with nothing you can do about it, and where you actually need to be tanky and just be a utility bot, otherwise you become food.
The extra HP on Haunting Guise is nice, but you'd be surprised how much it's actually worth in comparison to 10 MR on Athenes.
10 MR increases your effective HP against magic damage by 10%.
Using our fictional level 9 Lux as an example, she's got 1124 HP with 21/9 masteries. 1330 with Haunting Guise. With Athenes she shields for 233.5, and with Guise she shields for 188. Barrier shields for 275.
So, her effective HP against magic damage is more like: 3004 with Athenes 3110 with Guise
A difference of 106. Since Athenes Lux is making a net gain of .1 EHP for every HP point regenned, has 450 HP in regen with her flask and 2.29 HP/sec regen, she's going to make up that difference in about 4 minutes assuming she doesn't shield any additional damage.
I mean, the Haunting Guise certainly does give you more survivability, especially vs. an AD lane or an all in. But like, here's the thing.
If you're Lux in a lane where you're going to be all inned or taking lots of consistent harass damage, you're first off not going to want a build that makes you weaker in the early game. And secondly, in the mid game if Lux needs to prevent herself from taking damage, the way she does it is by farming exclusively with E, which takes Athenes regen and CDR.
Where the haunting guise would give an advantage would be in a lane where you're trying to aggressively engage with and kill your opponent in a short period of time. Lux just doesn't do that very much in almost any matchup unless she's seriously ahead. She goes slow and steady and pokes people out of lane.
And if she's seriously ahead, you might as well just buy an NLR instead of that Haunting Guise. It's more damage and works with your build better, and if you're far ahead you don't give a fuck about not buying HP.
On January 29 2014 08:50 Ketara wrote: You will never get 3 passive procs in a combo. You rarely get two.
I did forget the 6% mpen, but it's not really going to make a big difference.
With the mpen:
Athenes vs. 42 MR: 845.9 Chalice + Guise vs. 42 MR: 834.6
In terms of E+auto damage (340+60% AP)
Athenes vs. 42 MR: 334.5 Chalice + Guise vs. 42 MR: 365.1
That looks better, but in terms of harass damage over time, it's important to also factor in your regen. With Athenes you have 8.82 mana/sec regen, while with just Chalice you have 6.42 mana/sec regen. With about an 8 sec cooldown on E, that means during the cooldown you regen 70.56 mana with Athenes (54% of an E) and 51.86 mana with Chalice (40% of an E).
So counting your regen over time into your overall damage the numbers look more like this:
Athenes: 515.13 Chalice + Guise: 511.14
So, even in terms of harass damage, Athenes is equal or better.
I don't think this is fair, Athene's mana regen is very overrated in lanes where you get harassed back or tend to lose health since if you go back without having spent all your mana, you've basically wasted your money. chalice + guise is also 300 gold cheaper and gives you 200 health which helps to survive ganks and all-ins.
Don't go chalice and guise, you do no damage on a hero that does no damage anyways, and you don't even have the cdr benefit that's one of the main reasons you buy Athenes for.
If your going burst go full burst and spend your first 900 damage on mana that doesn't help you kill stuff, get like sorcs or mejais instead (mejais kinda needed for full burst to scale through the game, or you just stop 1 comboing stuff eventually).
Seems like you're reliant on the mr/hp combo as a crutch to keep yourself alive. Lux is much more about vision and positioning to survive encounters, and not raw tankiness (often if your at a point where your tankiness matters you've already screwed up). Exceptions to this are nocturne, kassadin, leblanc, basically anyone that can gap close onto you at will with nothing you can do about it, and where you actually need to be tanky and just be a utility bot, otherwise you become food.
Do you think the Lux vs. Kassadin matchup will be easier with the proposed Kassadin changes? I feel like it really will be and I am excited for this.
On January 29 2014 08:50 Ketara wrote: You will never get 3 passive procs in a combo. You rarely get two.
I did forget the 6% mpen, but it's not really going to make a big difference.
With the mpen:
Athenes vs. 42 MR: 845.9 Chalice + Guise vs. 42 MR: 834.6
In terms of E+auto damage (340+60% AP)
Athenes vs. 42 MR: 334.5 Chalice + Guise vs. 42 MR: 365.1
That looks better, but in terms of harass damage over time, it's important to also factor in your regen. With Athenes you have 8.82 mana/sec regen, while with just Chalice you have 6.42 mana/sec regen. With about an 8 sec cooldown on E, that means during the cooldown you regen 70.56 mana with Athenes (54% of an E) and 51.86 mana with Chalice (40% of an E).
So counting your regen over time into your overall damage the numbers look more like this:
Athenes: 515.13 Chalice + Guise: 511.14
So, even in terms of harass damage, Athenes is equal or better.
I don't think this is fair, Athene's mana regen is very overrated in lanes where you get harassed back or tend to lose health since if you go back without having spent all your mana, you've basically wasted your money. chalice + guise is also 300 gold cheaper and gives you 200 health which helps to survive ganks and all-ins.
Don't go chalice and guise, you do no damage on a hero that does no damage anyways, and you don't even have the cdr benefit that's one of the main reasons you buy Athenes for.
If your going burst go full burst and spend your first 900 damage on mana that doesn't help you kill stuff, get like sorcs or mejais instead (mejais kinda needed for full burst to scale through the game, or you just stop 1 comboing stuff eventually).
Seems like you're reliant on the mr/hp combo as a crutch to keep yourself alive. Lux is much more about vision and positioning to survive encounters, and not raw tankiness (often if your at a point where your tankiness matters you've already screwed up). Exceptions to this are nocturne, kassadin, leblanc, basically anyone that can gap close onto you at will with nothing you can do about it, and where you actually need to be tanky and just be a utility bot, otherwise you become food.
Do you think the Lux vs. Kassadin matchup will be easier with the proposed Kassadin changes? I feel like it really will be and I am excited for this.
Whats Kassadin, never seen a hero with that name. Don't think the patch will change that.
On January 29 2014 08:50 Ketara wrote: You will never get 3 passive procs in a combo. You rarely get two.
I did forget the 6% mpen, but it's not really going to make a big difference.
With the mpen:
Athenes vs. 42 MR: 845.9 Chalice + Guise vs. 42 MR: 834.6
In terms of E+auto damage (340+60% AP)
Athenes vs. 42 MR: 334.5 Chalice + Guise vs. 42 MR: 365.1
That looks better, but in terms of harass damage over time, it's important to also factor in your regen. With Athenes you have 8.82 mana/sec regen, while with just Chalice you have 6.42 mana/sec regen. With about an 8 sec cooldown on E, that means during the cooldown you regen 70.56 mana with Athenes (54% of an E) and 51.86 mana with Chalice (40% of an E).
So counting your regen over time into your overall damage the numbers look more like this:
Athenes: 515.13 Chalice + Guise: 511.14
So, even in terms of harass damage, Athenes is equal or better.
I don't think this is fair, Athene's mana regen is very overrated in lanes where you get harassed back or tend to lose health since if you go back without having spent all your mana, you've basically wasted your money. chalice + guise is also 300 gold cheaper and gives you 200 health which helps to survive ganks and all-ins.
Don't go chalice and guise, you do no damage on a hero that does no damage anyways, and you don't even have the cdr benefit that's one of the main reasons you buy Athenes for.
If your going burst go full burst and spend your first 900 damage on mana that doesn't help you kill stuff, get like sorcs or mejais instead (mejais kinda needed for full burst to scale through the game, or you just stop 1 comboing stuff eventually).
Seems like you're reliant on the mr/hp combo as a crutch to keep yourself alive. Lux is much more about vision and positioning to survive encounters, and not raw tankiness (often if your at a point where your tankiness matters you've already screwed up). Exceptions to this are nocturne, kassadin, leblanc, basically anyone that can gap close onto you at will with nothing you can do about it, and where you actually need to be tanky and just be a utility bot, otherwise you become food.
Do you think the Lux vs. Kassadin matchup will be easier with the proposed Kassadin changes? I feel like it really will be and I am excited for this.
Whats Kassadin, never seen a hero with that name. Don't think the patch will change that.
It's that thing that shows up in champ select next to "Blitzcrank".
On January 29 2014 08:50 Ketara wrote: You will never get 3 passive procs in a combo. You rarely get two.
I did forget the 6% mpen, but it's not really going to make a big difference.
With the mpen:
Athenes vs. 42 MR: 845.9 Chalice + Guise vs. 42 MR: 834.6
In terms of E+auto damage (340+60% AP)
Athenes vs. 42 MR: 334.5 Chalice + Guise vs. 42 MR: 365.1
That looks better, but in terms of harass damage over time, it's important to also factor in your regen. With Athenes you have 8.82 mana/sec regen, while with just Chalice you have 6.42 mana/sec regen. With about an 8 sec cooldown on E, that means during the cooldown you regen 70.56 mana with Athenes (54% of an E) and 51.86 mana with Chalice (40% of an E).
So counting your regen over time into your overall damage the numbers look more like this:
Athenes: 515.13 Chalice + Guise: 511.14
So, even in terms of harass damage, Athenes is equal or better.
I don't think this is fair, Athene's mana regen is very overrated in lanes where you get harassed back or tend to lose health since if you go back without having spent all your mana, you've basically wasted your money. chalice + guise is also 300 gold cheaper and gives you 200 health which helps to survive ganks and all-ins.
Don't go chalice and guise, you do no damage on a hero that does no damage anyways, and you don't even have the cdr benefit that's one of the main reasons you buy Athenes for.
If your going burst go full burst and spend your first 900 damage on mana that doesn't help you kill stuff, get like sorcs or mejais instead (mejais kinda needed for full burst to scale through the game, or you just stop 1 comboing stuff eventually).
Seems like you're reliant on the mr/hp combo as a crutch to keep yourself alive. Lux is much more about vision and positioning to survive encounters, and not raw tankiness (often if your at a point where your tankiness matters you've already screwed up). Exceptions to this are nocturne, kassadin, leblanc, basically anyone that can gap close onto you at will with nothing you can do about it, and where you actually need to be tanky and just be a utility bot, otherwise you become food.
There are tons of champions that can guarantee trades. With w + e + passive proc you can win most trades with chalice/guise.
I don't push with e until I get blue, because I can last hit everything anyways.
You're making a lot of overgeneralizations there, man.
Probably the only mids in the game that can put guaranteed harass damage on Lux after you get chalice are Kassadin, Leblanc and Ziggs. Everybody else if you want to you can farm without ever being in any danger, or they have some skillshot that's not too hard to dodge like Nidalee or Jayce.
As an extreme bursty build, you can do it this way. Use flat Ap quitnts and glyphes. Get double doran's first to acquire minimum sustainability and survivability. Then everytime you return, you buy things depending on your gold: >775, sorc >860, blast rod >1200, sheen >1300, mejai >1500, guise >1600, NLR
CDR is irrelavant here, since you are not expecting to use any skill twice in a fight.
EDIT: I made a mistake it is not from Apdo. I cannot remember the actual source though....
He is right though: If you're going to go burst, go burst. Get Sorc, Guise and then damage. If you're feeling like you need some mana in there you get a doran's ring or two because doran's rings provide damage and Chalice doesn't.
He is wrong about this though;
Once you get a Deathcap your AP in the Athenes build will start to scale multiplicitavely. You'll be forced to either get a 6th item Liandry since you went Haunting Guise, or sell the thing late game, neither of which is an attractive option.
1) The damage boost on Deathcap applies evenly to all scaled damage. +30% AP is just another way of saying "multiply scaled damage by 30%" It does not matter how that damage is achieved. If Haunting Guise does the same damage as Athenes then when you add a Deathcap, Haunting Guise will still do the same damage as Athenes, the calculus here does not change.
2) Liandry's is actually a good lategame item due to the way MR pen scales. Consider what happens when you have voidstaff and so you're penetrating 39% of the enemies MR. Since flat pen is added after scaling pen and suppose that we have 20.5 Mpen from runes and sorcs. Versus a 100 MR target and no items you're going to be attacking into 40.6 MR effective. With Guise/Liandry's you're going to be attacking into 25.6 MR effective.
This means that Liandry's is a flat 11% increase in your damage (scaling damage and base damage) before considering its AP.
So how much AP do we need to increase our damage by 11%? We have 2.05 AP scaling on our combo and assuming one passive procc we do 1190 + 2.66 (post deathcap value) AP
If we somehow had 0 AP despite having deathcap and void staff we would need 49.21 AP[on top of the 50 that guise itself brings] in order to increase our damage by 11%. So an item would have to have 99 AP.
If we had 190 AP (pre deathcap values, this is a zero AP, zero scaling start with Deathcap, Voidstaff, so 240 after the Liandrys, 312 total AP) an item would have to have +75 AP[So 125 base AP] in order to do more damage than Laindry's.
What this means, basically, is that if you have sorc shoes, deathcap, void staff, and are thinking of a final item to cap your build Liandry's provides more damage against squishies than DFG or Zhonya's before you consider its burn damage. DFG would clearly beat it single target with the active. But AoE the Liandry's is actually really strong.
And the more AP you have the better the enemy MR breakpoint becomes.
At 150 MR the % damage increase the Pen on Liandry's brings is about 10%(you hit 56 MR instead of 71 MR). This makes the cutoff point 232 raw(pre deathcap) AP. If you have more than this Liandrys does more damage than Zhonyas
At 200 MR Liandry's provides about 8% extra damage. The raw AP breakpoint is now 426[ so 555 AP with a deathcap]
Against the majority of non-tank targets, I.E. the targets you're really wanting to do damage to. Liandry's outperforms DFG (minus the active) or Zhonya's given your build not even considering the burn damage.
This isn't to say that DFG or Zhonya are bad. DFG has an incredible active. But it is to say that your build, before the last item and using your standard runes and masteries has 408 raw AP in it (120 Deathcap, 120 Zhonya, 60 Athenes, 70 Void, 38 maserteries/runes, 0 Sorc, 6th item for comparison will show as 556-7 on your stat sheet due to the 5% AP mastery i forgot to include). The damage that Liandry's gives, not considering its passive, is equivalent to the damage that DFG gives (but available in significant quantities much earlier due to the cheapness of haunting guise) to your build to about 180 MR.
Its also important to note that the 1 proc, full rotation condition is generally advantageous to the AP stat on lux. This is because her Q has the lowest "AP needed to double damage" stat of any of her abilities (371 vs 400 on e and 666.6 on r) and it includes the lowest reasonable amount of passive procs (land E then land R then land no more auto attacks)
Edit: When i say "raw(Pre deathcap)" I mean 'before multiplying your AP by 1.3'. Since I did that in another part of the calculation and it makes writing out the breaks here. If you want to know what this looks like on your character sheet, multiply by 1.3 and then 1.05 (since i forgot to do the AP mastery scaling multiplication and while yes it will have a slight effect it should not be that significant)
Here are some numbers based on the above post by Goumindong, based on our level 9 Lux example, adding a Deathcap into the build. You wouldn't have a Deathcap at level 9 but this will still prove my point.
With Athenes, adding Deathcap would up our AP from 105 to 292.5
With Guise, adding Deathcap would up our AP from 40 to 208
Our combo in this case is now doing, vs. lets say 82 MR now:
Athenes: From 631.9 to 912, an increase of 281.1 Guise: From 597.4 to 869.5, an increase of 272.1
It's about a 44% increase in overall damage either way, so Goumindong is not wrong. But the actual number increases by more if you had an Athenes, because you're getting more AP. That's why I said the Deathcap is better if you got Athenes first. Since it gives more AP it also increases your shield value by more than Guise, and that doesn't care about enemy MR or your Mpen. Deathcap is more cost efficient the more AP you have, that's pretty obvious.
Critically, if you got a Haunting Guise and then Deathcap, you wouldn't have enough AP to one shot caster minions with E at the normal timing, and would need another AP item to do so. Since Void Staff and Guise do have pretty good synergy with each other, if you DID get a Haunting Guise, you would always want to get the Void Staff before the Deathcap. Since Athenes + Void Staff already outdamages Athenes + Deathcap, Guise + Void Staff would be pretty good damages on champions.
As far as Liandry goes, I think people tend to overestimate the amount of damage Liandry adds to Lux. Here are some facts in regards to the Liandry passive:
1 - If Lux combos somebody, that person will only take one Liandry proc in damage since all 3 spells apply within half a second of each other.
2 - Lux's E does not deal extra damage as per a slowed target.
So with that said, lets look at the raw damage that you'd deal with a 6th item DFG as opposed to a 6th item Liandry.
With a full build we have: 773 AP, 6%+35%+21 mpen with DFG. 678 AP, 6%+35%+36 mpen with Liandry.
An ADC with a Banshee's Veil and an Aegis on the enemy team lets say should have 122.8 MR.
Our combo does 1190+205% AP E harass does 240+60% AP
Here's what the numbers look like:
With DFG: 1875 combo, 470 E With Liandry: 1934 combo, 480 E
So against a squishy target a 6th item Liandry does do about 60 more damage with a full combo, and fairly equal damage with E harass. Add in the Liandry passive and HP and it looks pretty good, right? Well, here are some things to consider.
First, the extra AP on DFG will add 33.25 to your shield per shield application. You're going to get a minimum of lets say 4 shield applications in a fight, and a maximum of lets say 8 (getting all 10 is nearly impossible) if you only get to cast the shield once in a fight. So you're adding somewhere between 133 and 266 extra HP to your team per spellcast with DFG. You typically get at least 2 shields in a fight at this point in the game so we're talking minimum about 300 extra shielded HP on targets who are actually being focused. Much better than the HP on Liandry.
Note: Lux's shields in a late game teamfight are a super big deal, you don't want to underestimate how good having bigger shields is.
Second, the 7.5% extra CDR (not 10% since you were at 32.5% before) is adding to your harass, as well as your shields, since these are both going to be used before the fight and with 6 second cooldowns can often come up twice during a fight.
While you're probably not going to get 2 ults, factoring CDR into your overall harass damage it looks like this. DFG: 78.33 damage per second per target Liandry: 71.11 damage per second per target
Now, the Liandry passive is likely adding more than that, probably something like an extra 10 DPS or so depending on who you're poking. This is the one thing that Liandry is really good at, poke damage in an extended siege. However, it's important to point out that the CDR from DFG is helping here as well. Do note that the Liandry passive damage on somebody you combo is almost nothing, even though they're snared. We're talking maybe 10 damage.
Another important note here is that going to max CDR allows you to do that thing Lux does in a siege where you use your ult on every minion wave if you just never want to fight their team. You can't do it with less than 40% CDR since her ult duration was nerfed.
Finally, we have the DFG active, which is going to give you an extra at least 350 damage, and probably more damage depending on who you use it on and how well you can work another Q-E rotation into the amplified damage. Typically as Lux you don't use the DFG to add to your combo damage since the target is too far away, you wait and use the DFG to do a second DFG>Q>auto>E>auto combo to whatever bruiser gets into your teams back line. If you do the combo correctly this second rotation should do an extra 500 or so damage even counting high enemy MR.
So, basically at the end of the day, the extra benefit for your shields is better on DFG than the HP is on Liandry.
Your combo damage and harass damage is about the same, maybe about 2% higher with Liandry. However, any added damage from Liandry is going to be overtaken by the added active damage on DFG, and DFG should be doing more overall damage in the fight.
I will admit that the Liandry numbers look better than I thought they would, probably because we're looking at a fairly low MR target. But all put together I think it looks pretty clear that DFG is better. It's also much better in practical applications over just digesting number theory, because the big thing about the Liandry passive is that it can never kill someone. The DFG active can kill someone who survives your combo at low health rather than you having to wait 6 seconds to get them with your next spell. Kind of a big deal.
If you want a 6th item to help you doing more damage at close range/killing diver/winning duel late game, lichbane is the one to go. DFG is mainly used to cap cdr w/o blue buff.
If you're going to make a claim like that, you should actually post the math to support it. Obviously the DFG active would need to be up, but late game it should be up for every teamfight.
It works out that DFG is doing more damage till about your third or even fourth Lich Bane proc (depending on how many people you're hitting with your spells), which you'd get about 14 to 21 seconds into a fight.
Late game teamfights don't last 21 seconds, generally.
It's also worth noting that DFG has a longer range than Lich Bane, 750 vs 550.
On January 31 2014 03:51 lega wrote: Only when you active is up and you have a full spell rotation and you start the fight at close range.
Dfg range > lichbane range so if you change get the active on dfg off you can't get lichbane off. The lichbane proc is considerably more important to its dps than the dfgs active is to its.
@ketara
I don't disagree that dfg is a good item (though I do disagree that you get as much value as you think out of cdr) for precisely the reasons that you mentioned
My point was mainly that even with liandrys inefficient AP value it still ends up being competitive for damage.
It's main advantage is that the majority of the damage is contained in the guise portion of the build. So if you build guise earlier and sit on it you can upgrade it later and not feel bad. If you buy haunting guise after you have deathcap and void staff it's easily the most cost efficient item providing zhonyas level damage until around 150 mr but for half the cost. The reason I get guise earlier is because I like going after champions more than minions but a heavy farming game is just as much a legitimate play choice.
That being said you're still underestimating the damage that the liandrys passive does. While liandrys is best on burn champions it still does damage every time you reapply it. So your initial combo still gets a 3 full initial ticks(one for a one for e one for r) and then the tickdown (some of which may or may not be doubled).
If someone has 1000 hp the non bonuses tick is 10 damage (about 3 APs worth on your full combo) so we aren't talking a totally insignificant amount of damage when we add it all up. It's maybe worth another 10-15 APs worth.
This may not be enough to change your purchase decisions but you should give a mid to mid-late game guise a try and see how it feels.
The problem with that statement is that the Liandry damage is calculated after the damage is applied from the attack, not before.
So if you do a full combo to somebody, in order for Liandry to do 10 damage per tick after counting MR, the target has to have something like 750 HP left. In order for them to have 750 HP left after taking 1934 damage to the face, they'd have to have 2684 HP, and nobody else hits them with anything during that 3 seconds.
In practical situations, that doesn't happen. While the Liandry passive is good (very good) in extended siege poke situations, it's not very good once the actual teamfight breaks out. Typically real long sieges happen more in the mid game, since when everybody is at 6 items diving an inhibitor tower is no longer all that big of a deal, if the tower is even still there.
As for the build path, I'd be interested to see if a Haunting Guise outdamages the NLR in a DFG. Our math earlier when we were talking about Athenes showed that it clearly wouldn't, since the Athenes damage was equal or better than the Guise damage. But at full build, Guise is probably better.
I don't grab the NLR first anyway though, I get the Fiendish Codex first. At that point in the game I'm more concerned with CDR than anything else, because I want to make sure that in a teamfight I'll get a second spell rotation off before too many people on my team are dead for it to matter, and I want to start moving blue buff onto my ADC.
It is a play style argument. Lux is not like Ahri who can decided when to do an all-in. In late game I usually spend all my cool downs on long range poking, not save them for a potential dive. When I get dove, I usually does not have all my spells ready to cast and sometimes it is impossible to land even a single spell on a diver (e.g., zed, fizz). In those cases, lichbane is definitely superior.
Also, lux is a skillshot champion. I never go for any all-in if I cannot land my q and r first. I do not walk in DFG range at first, use the active, unleash the full combo and wish them all hit. What I can do is trying to hit my qr and then walk in to finish my opponent with e w and lichbane procs. If you exclude your q r passive from your DFG vs Lichbane calculation, we don't have to actually do the math to tell which one is better. So actually to me, the engage range of lichbane build is longer than dfg. This is how I approach these two items, maybe I am just bad at hitting those damn skill shots.
You're not really looking at the DFG correctly. That's why I said to do the math, it would help you out there.
To start with, the DFG active is going to do more damage than a single Lich Bane proc, especially if you use it on a high HP target. Even on a low HP target it will still do more.
Secondly, the added AP and CDR on DFG will make all of your spells do more damage both in burst and sustained damage situations.
When you do the math and add all that together, you find that you need at least 3 Lich Bane procs in order to outdamage DFG, and if each of your spells is hitting multiple people, it's more like 4. Even if you don't use the DFG active as part of a combo and just use it to add damage to whoever gets into the back line like you would Lich Bane, you're having to fight for at least 14 seconds for Lich Bane to overtake DFG in damage, since it takes you 14 seconds to get 3 Lich Bane procs. If you're playing well, hitting multiple targets and using DFG to add bonus damage to your second Q-E rotation, it's more like 4 Lich Bane procs and we're talking 21 seconds for Lich Bane to be better.
DFG also adds more to your shield, which I really cannot overstate is a BIG DEAL late game. Lux's shield is one of the most overpowered teamfight abilities in the game.
Lich Bane is probably better in a 1v1 against a tank, but in practical situations DFG is just better. Lux loses 1v1's against full build tanks with either item anyway.
10 damage was before MR since we want to compare it easily to how much AP we have.
damage / post deathcap AP ratio = AP in a full combo equivalent to the single proc
10/2.798 = 3.5
So if 3 ticks do 30 damage then liandry's passive is worth ~10.5 AP. Decent, but not amazing.
But that isn't quite right because Liandry's gets a tick for each ability.
So you land the first Q or E and then Liandry's gets a tick. (Max HP - Q/E damage). Then you land the Q/E and regardless of the duration between the Q/E you get another tick (and if you landed the Q first then the tick is doubled because they're snared/slowed). Because Q snares, its tick is doubled. Assume for a second that neither get their second tick and that you ult before that.
The ult gets a third tick plus its combined damage.
So with a Q,E,ult combination we have 2% at (Max minus Q), 1% at (Max minus Q/E), 6% at (Max minus Q/E/ult/passive)
Lets assume you're final build, minus DFG+Liandry's. So you have 625.17 AP. Q does 697.619 before MR. Assume 100 MR (more MR actually makes the tick do more damage) so we're attacking roughly 25 effective MR. This is basically best case for minimizing the damage that Liandry's passive does
Someone has 2000 HP, 100 MR and we land a Q. They have 1441 HP left. Liandry's immediately gets a tick for 2%. Dealing ~28 additional damage before MR which is worth about 10 AP of full combo damage before MR.
Now we land our E, it does 240+.6 AP= 615 damage before MR. We hit someone with 1420 HP(account for the previous liandry's proc), and 100 MR. They have 928 HP and are still snared, so again the liandry's proc is doubled. It gets a single tick for 2% which is about 20 damage. Which is worth another 6.5 AP.
Our ult hits for 500+.75+190 and so does 926 damage after MR. The target is dead since they had 908 HP left*
2000 HP and 100 MR is a fairly low amount of MR and HP to be hitting. As we increase either of these the damage from the liandry's procs increase. The non-passive portion of liandry's damage is most significant against low MR targets
But as we can see, the total damage from the liandry's proc's, while low, was not inconsequential, it was worth another 16.5 AP(actually slightly more since it is also increased by the MR pen that Liandry's brings)
As MR and HP's go up, the effective HP that the liandry's passive gives increases, both because we will end up getting more of the full 6% damage proc's but also just because enemies have more HP left after we use abilities. Naturally this extends the "equivalent damage to dfg" portion of the damage range out past 180 MR.
*it is actually just coincidence that i chose a value where the liandry's passive and Mpen would move a target from "alive after a full burst" to "dead after a full burst". That was not intentional, though it may be good to note that below this combined MR/HP value whether or not you have DFG or Liandry's doesn't matter.
Edit: Again, my point is not that DFG isn't good, its that you're underselling the effect of lategame flat Mpen and even the damage liandrys does.
Give it a try, do your standard build and instead of getting Zhonya's right away, get Guise instead, then get Zhonya's then finish Liandry's as your 6th item
I just checked this in a custom to make sure, but the first tick from Liandry doesn't happen until 0.5 seconds after the spell hits. You get ticks at 0.5, 1, 1.5, 2, 2.5 and 3 seconds.
Looking it up, there was actually a bug fix a year ago that made it so multiple spells refreshing wouldn't change the number of ticks you get for better or worse.
Right, that's why they made it so reapplying something very quickly wouldn't change the number of ticks. When the item originally came out stuff like Singed poison would just never deal any damage because the Liandry debuff was refreshing faster than it could deal any damage.
So basically, you're only getting 6 ticks. Since R has a half second cast time, you might get 7 in a combo, tops. Max 3 of those ticks do extra damage when snared (unfortunately the 2 second tick counts as though the target is no longer movement impaired since the snare just ended, I have tested this too.)
When doing the calculation you also have to remember that each tick does less damage than the last one since the targets current HP is dropping.
On January 31 2014 04:47 Ketara wrote: You're not really looking at the DFG correctly. That's why I said to do the math, it would help you out there.
To start with, the DFG active is going to do more damage than a single Lich Bane proc, especially if you use it on a high HP target. Even on a low HP target it will still do more.
How you do your math is rather mysterious to me. According to your lv 18 ap 719 lichbane lux as an example, a zed which has 2000 hp dives her, DFG active gives 15%*2000=300 damage before mr. Lichbane proc is 50+0.75*719=589 damage. Even on a 4k hp target, they do the similar damage. So obviously, DFG does more damage even on a low hp target.
On January 31 2014 04:47 Ketara wrote: You're not really looking at the DFG correctly. That's why I said to do the math, it would help you out there.
To start with, the DFG active is going to do more damage than a single Lich Bane proc, especially if you use it on a high HP target. Even on a low HP target it will still do more.
How you do your math is rather mysterious to me. According to your lv 18 ap 719 lichbane lux as an example, a zed which has 2000 hp dives her, DFG active gives 15%*2000=300 damage before mr. Lichbane proc is 50+0.75*719=589 damage. Even on a 4k hp target, they do the similar damage. So obviously, DFG does more damage even on a low hp target.
DFG multiplies all magic damage dealt to the target by anyone by 20%. So Zed dives you and you Q/E him in response. These do 20% more damage. If you are unable to get a Q/E off then your lichbane proc does zero damage anyway. If you're unable to get at least a Q/E off you're not going to live anyway so the damage you do doesn't matter.
But if you do do that then you do get a lot of damage on top of the active. One second and i will tell you how much
edit: 20% of your Q/E damage at 770 AP(DFG AP) is 300 damage.
So DFG gives you 670 damage in that situation. You get 300 from the active, 300 from the extra magic damage on the active, and 70 from the extra scaling damage. If you're also able to ult this value is even larger.
edit: forgot the extra 70 damage from 2 passive procs (if you can get them. Total of 740 extra damage against a 2000 HP target on the DFG).
Lichbane only competes if you can get more than two bonused auto attacks in, but this requires two combo's (so it might not matter) or living for >2 seconds and not needing your W within that period
A level 18 Zed never has 2k HP. 2250-2500 is more reasonable. With a BC and a red elixir as his only HP items he'll have 2426 end game.
So at 2426 your Lich Bane will do 363.9. 20% bonus damage from your E, Q and 2 passives is another 407.9, so the DFG active is in total doing 771.8 damage if used correctly, even to Zed.
An end game Mundo (5259.1 HP) and it's doing 1196.7 damage, which is a little more than 2 Lich Bane procs.
That is minimum by the way. If anybody else on your team does magic damage to them during that 4 seconds, it's doing more than that.
On January 31 2014 05:38 Ketara wrote: A level 18 Zed never has 2k HP. 2250-2500 is more reasonable. With a BC and a red elixir as his only HP items he'll have 2426 end game.
So at 2426 your Lich Bane will do 363.9. 20% bonus damage from your E, Q and 2 passives is another 407.9, so the DFG active is in total doing 771.8 damage if used correctly, even to Zed.
So am I the only bad player who cannot hit those skill shots on Zed? At least even if he shadow jukes my q, I can still land AAs. If he use ult to juke my AA, I guess I will be very happy. As I said, you have to assume you can hit everything to justify DFG, since 771.8 damage requires at least 3 lichbane procs to surpass. LoL
And I think Lux should never waste her full rotation on Mundo except at the end of fight.
Yes he is suggesting to use the DFG at the end of the fight and not the beginning. The extra damage he was calculating was not including the extra AoE damage he got in the first part of the fight.
Edit; If you're not landing your skillshots on Zed it doesn't matter what items you brought to the fight, you dead son.
On January 31 2014 05:38 Ketara wrote: A level 18 Zed never has 2k HP. 2250-2500 is more reasonable. With a BC and a red elixir as his only HP items he'll have 2426 end game.
So at 2426 your Lich Bane will do 363.9. 20% bonus damage from your E, Q and 2 passives is another 407.9, so the DFG active is in total doing 771.8 damage if used correctly, even to Zed.
So am I the only bad player who cannot hit those skill shots on Zed? At least even if he shadow jukes my q, I can still land AAs. If he use ult to juke my AA, I guess I will be very happy. As I said, you have to assume you can hit everything to justify DFG, since 771.8 damage requires at least 3 lichbane procs to surpass. LoL
And I think Lux should never waste her full rotation on Mundo except at the end of fight.
Typically the way you get Zed is to wait until after he uses his ult on somebody. If you try to get him before the ult he will dodge it with the ult, so you wait for him to get on your ADC, then snare him. Your ADC uses whatever escape skill he has / flash to get away from Zed and since Zed is snared he can't follow. If he ults you you just Zhonya.
As for Mundo, yes you should be using your second rotation on Mundo. Typically the way you play Lux in a teamfight is to use your first combo with your ult to either A - instantkill one guy, or if that isn't possible B - Just hit as many people as possible. After that you want to stay back with your ADC and peel, which means you use all your everything on whoever is hitting them, even if it's Mundo.
And you're still not doing the math. You use your DFG combo on Zed. That's 771.8 damage, okay.
You've also got 54 more AP. So even if each of your skills only hit one person, by the time of the 2nd Lich Bane proc you've cast 1x R, 2x Q, 8x W applications and 2xE. That's a total of 635% AP ratio. Another 342.9 extra damage dealt/shielded. Totals to 1114.7. If you factor in that all your spells came up 1 second earlier into the number over time, this is about the same as the Lich Bane damage.
So, at 14 seconds you've done 1x R, 3x Q, 12x W applications and 3xE. At this point your third Lich Bane proc starts outdamaging DFG, IF you used your combo on Zed and IF every single spell you cast has only hit one other person and IF nobody else on your team does any magic damage.
If you're using DFG on the correct target (the tank/bruiser, not Zed) and hitting multiple targets with your spells, it should be easy to see that it's taking Lich Bane 4 procs to be better or even equal in overall damage. Not to mention that with Lich Bane, your 4th proc happens at 21 or so seconds at 4 spell rotations, and with DFG you're at that point closing on your 5th spell rotation because of the extra CDR.
In the guide I stated that DFG was better than Lich Bane in the first 10 seconds of a fight, but after doing all this math it looks like in many situations DFG will be better than Lich Bane for potentially even 20 seconds.
20 second teamfights just don't happen. Lich Bane is just not as good as DFG, pretty much ever, unless as you say you're missing all your skills. If you're not hitting your skillshots why are you playing Lux in the first place?
You're really starting to annoy me at this point. You clearly haven't read the guide. I am spending hours trying to explain my reasoning behind builds with math and making them as clear as possible, and you are not responding in kind, and at this point are responding with a derisive and offensive attitude.
If you are going to post in this thread again please back up your statements. If you are not going to, please stop posting.
On January 31 2014 07:32 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Did you guys know that you should get different items in different games, with a wide variety of factors to consider?
Certainly. But dominated is dominated; the argument isn't that you need the move speed on the lichbane.
On January 31 2014 07:32 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Did you guys know that you should get different items in different games, with a wide variety of factors to consider?
Lichbane is better then dfg when your catching people, simply because you can finish with a lichbane proc, but you cannot start with a dfg or use it before ult.
It can also be better when your snowballing with mejais and dont need the cdr from DFG.
Most games you do just get the DFG for the statstick and the chance to use it on people that dive your team.
DFG loses out on a lot of its potential because Lux most likely can't throw the active before her combo. There's no perfect last item for lux anyways (after grail/dcap/voidstaff/zhonyas/sorcs), so DFG for lots of AP and 10% CDR or Lichbane for some towerpushing and movespeed are both decent choices.
It's really true, there is no 6th item with stats that Lux really likes, unless she could magically instantly full-stack an Archangels in one buy.
But in terms of doing the most damage, DFG does the most damage regardless of how awkward the active is. That's the point of all the math in the last page of thread, to prove this.
If you're not getting a DFG as 6th item that means you're sacrificing damage for some other need.
It's worth pointing out that I'm not advocating that you should always get a 6th item DFG in every game, or even only get items listed in the guide. I very recently got a 6th item Banshee's Veil on Lux because the particular game called for it, and I don't say Bveil is a good item for Lux in the guide. It's really not a good item for Lux, but it was a good item in that particular game.
It's a guide for new and beginning players, not a guide for diamond league, diamond league players don't need to read guides. The starting point should be DFG as 6th item, and you should branch out from there.
On January 31 2014 05:38 Ketara wrote: A level 18 Zed never has 2k HP. 2250-2500 is more reasonable. With a BC and a red elixir as his only HP items he'll have 2426 end game.
So at 2426 your Lich Bane will do 363.9. 20% bonus damage from your E, Q and 2 passives is another 407.9, so the DFG active is in total doing 771.8 damage if used correctly, even to Zed.
So am I the only bad player who cannot hit those skill shots on Zed? At least even if he shadow jukes my q, I can still land AAs. If he use ult to juke my AA, I guess I will be very happy. As I said, you have to assume you can hit everything to justify DFG, since 771.8 damage requires at least 3 lichbane procs to surpass. LoL
And I think Lux should never waste her full rotation on Mundo except at the end of fight.
Typically the way you get Zed is to wait until after he uses his ult on somebody. If you try to get him before the ult he will dodge it with the ult, so you wait for him to get on your ADC, then snare him. Your ADC uses whatever escape skill he has / flash to get away from Zed and since Zed is snared he can't follow. If he ults you you just Zhonya.
As for Mundo, yes you should be using your second rotation on Mundo. Typically the way you play Lux in a teamfight is to use your first combo with your ult to either A - instantkill one guy, or if that isn't possible B - Just hit as many people as possible. After that you want to stay back with your ADC and peel, which means you use all your everything on whoever is hitting them, even if it's Mundo.
And you're still not doing the math. You use your DFG combo on Zed. That's 771.8 damage, okay.
You've also got 54 more AP. So even if each of your skills only hit one person, by the time of the 2nd Lich Bane proc you've cast 1x R, 2x Q, 8x W applications and 2xE. That's a total of 635% AP ratio. Another 342.9 extra damage dealt/shielded. Totals to 1114.7. If you factor in that all your spells came up 1 second earlier into the number over time, this is about the same as the Lich Bane damage.
So, at 14 seconds you've done 1x R, 3x Q, 12x W applications and 3xE. At this point your third Lich Bane proc starts outdamaging DFG, IF you used your combo on Zed and IF every single spell you cast has only hit one other person and IF nobody else on your team does any magic damage.
If you're using DFG on the correct target (the tank/bruiser, not Zed) and hitting multiple targets with your spells, it should be easy to see that it's taking Lich Bane 4 procs to be better or even equal in overall damage. Not to mention that with Lich Bane, your 4th proc happens at 21 or so seconds at 4 spell rotations, and with DFG you're at that point closing on your 5th spell rotation because of the extra CDR.
In the guide I stated that DFG was better than Lich Bane in the first 10 seconds of a fight, but after doing all this math it looks like in many situations DFG will be better than Lich Bane for potentially even 20 seconds.
20 second teamfights just don't happen. Lich Bane is just not as good as DFG, pretty much ever, unless as you say you're missing all your skills. If you're not hitting your skillshots why are you playing Lux in the first place?
You're really starting to annoy me at this point. You clearly haven't read the guide. I am spending hours trying to explain my reasoning behind builds with math and making them as clear as possible, and you are not responding in kind, and at this point are responding with a derisive and offensive attitude.
If you are going to post in this thread again please back up your statements. If you are not going to, please stop posting.
Sorry I was busy yesterday and didnt have time to reply. Unfortunately, I did read your guide and your reply carefully . The more I read them the more I feel reluctant to argue about those math. Any math based on any particular example cannot "back up" any statement, unless the example is typical and representative. For most of your cases, I do have the feeling that you are making up your examples to favour your conclusion.
For example, we all know that Liandry does percentage health damage, excels in poke and excels when you hit multiple people. But in your DFG/Liandry calculations, you choose an ADC with banshee as a single target and focusing on one-full-combo damage . On the other hand, at your DFG/Lichbane calculations, since DFG is percentage health damage, you start using your 5k health Mundo as the target and insisting that DFG is better when you hit more people. However in most real cases, pokes are usually landing on front line, i.e. the 5k health Mundo , and the DFG/lichbane are for divers with multiple gap closers like zed/fizz/riven, not a kiteable Mundo.
Similarly, to comparing guise/athene, you insist there should be only 1 passive proc in your calculation since there is flash/tenacity, etc to prevent you land even one aa on target. Then in the later case, you assume that to be a Lux player you should be able to hit EVERY SINGLE spell on a diving Zed, regardless of the fact that there is still flash/QSS, etc out there.
It is easy to make up your model to get a favourable number in your math. You even include some possible little factors to favour your argument. You find that chalice and guise are way better in E+aa harassing. Then you factor it by MANA REGEN. This is the most hilarious calculation I have ever seen. Sitting on full mana won't help your laning and most mid champions are not mundo/nasus, they will be dead before you can hit 10 E-aa combo and oom.
If you like I can also come up with similar weird "counter-math". Chalice guise sorc is cheaper than athene sorc, but you omit that 235 gold different . So I propose, to compare these two builds, you should compare the damage between calice+guise vs. codex+chalice+boot? These are more realistic items on those two builds when they are lv 9, and the gold difference is also just 340. I could also introduce the missing rate of skill shot in the calculation of Lux damage.Lets say that any Lux who can hit 50% of her skillshot is decent in her ELO range. Then I factor the combo damage by 50% to compare between DFG/Lichbane. I hope you could enjoy those maths at all LoL.
TL:DR: You are so obsessed with numbers and keeping manipulating your examples to get a more desired number. Unfortunately, those numbers you get are meaningless in terms of supporting your argument. People do not have to actually repeat the math to question it. League is not a turn-based TRPG and cannot be represented by any single made-up example. I am sorry if it insult you, I suggest that if you really want to use math to "back up " your statement without doing a thorough calculation throughout the whole parameter region(which is impossible I know), you'd better start with unfavourable cases for math.
As someone who was/is arguing for guise. He was pretty reasonable on his considerations for what was a best or worst case scenario. So one of the things that you can do, is to compare best/worst because the area in between will cover the whole parameter region. So if you compare a roughly worst case scenario for the item you're using you can know that the rest of the parameter space is at least as favorable to the item you're talking about.
He compared Mundo/a tank for the DFG/Lichbane comparison because lux often won't use lichbane or DFG at the start of a fight. She will run her combo and then have to run her combo a second time on the enemy tank/diver. When he did the calculation he was even favorable to the Lichbane by not including the extra damage that Lux's combo does from the extra AP (about 110 damage per person hit with Q,E,R, 73 for people hit with only E/R. Which ideally adds up to about 439 damage, much of it on the most important targets of the fight). That is to say he compared the best case for Lichbane and even ignored some of the advantages of DFG. The rest of the parameter space should probably land with DFG.
We looked at back liners with regards to the Liandry's/DFG examination because that is roughly who you care about doing the damage to on your first big combo, and Liandry's should actually do slightly better against the tankier targets. I made that comparison because I was supporting Liandry's and took the most advantageous position with regards to the damage that the item i was arguing against does. And he was pretty reasonable on his acceptance of it, even if he things the CDR and active put DFG over the top, which is a totally reasonable position. That is, i was arguing for Liandrys and so used a best case scenario for DFG (that is, our intention is to get the best damage over the enemy team at the initial fight, what do we use, the low mr/hp targets and the relative MR break points define our best case scenario for DFG)
Look, you don't have to look at the numbers if you don't want to. But the counter position to "find the best mathematically valuable solution" is "who cares what you build". Right? Why not build AD lux? A: Because the math shows that AP and Penetration are better.
Not the best scenario =/= the worse scenario I mentioned. Whether the example is bad enough depends on the argument your make. If you want to argue "DFG is good for killing a tank in 5 sec", then Mundo is a decent example. If you try to argue a general statement like "DFG does more damage than Lich Bane", then making a perfect assumption like your QE is always ready, you hit everything after DFG and target is a 5k Mundo is definitely not acceptable. "The best mathematically valuable solution" is achieved in extreme conditions, which means you should at least show your argument is right in the worst scenario of your argument. We don't have to be that strict here but always considering the best or next to best example does not help at all.
Btw, as lichbane/dfg case, the best scenario for lichbane is when you miss all your spells after you activate your DFG. You can even do a favourable calculation to DFG by letting you hit a E. Actually in this case, AD Lux is " the best mathematically valuable solution". You can do the math and it will show you. Then, shall we believe the math and go for AD build?
We showed with the math that even in arguably the best possible situation for Lich Bane (the Zed example), DFG was still doing more damage.
You still seem to be arguing your position based on the assumption that you won't be hitting your spells in a teamfight. If you aren't hitting your spells you're losing the game and what items you have does not matter. You have to be under the assumption that you are hitting your spells. If you can't hit them, play a different champion.
It's also worth noting that, if your argument is that not every spell in lane is going to hit (an obviously valid assumption), then at least for your Chalice+Guise vs Athenes argument, that would favor Athenes. The more regen and CDR you have the more you can afford to miss spells, this should be pretty obvious.
As far as me backing up my arguments goes, really what's backing them up is that I have something like 1000 Lux games played at a fairly reasonable/high level. I've had late game Lich Banes before, I've had late game DFG's before. I've tried building AP after Chalice instead of building Athenes before (this was the optimum build before Athenes was changed from 10% to 20% CDR in early season 3. You went Chalice+Codex, started building the Deathcap, and finished Athenes kind of whenever convenient.)
I know what feels better in a real game. I use the math to try to reinforce these things, not to make baseless proofs.
I'm really not sure what your problem is at this point. Are you arguing just for the sake of arguing? I don't get it.
the dfg/lich debate is a bit too intense for me to fully follow, so i'm hoping that i can get something cleared up real quick
is the value of being able to pick exactly who the damage is dealt to being considered? after using the dfg active, lux is limited to damaging the targets she hits with offensive spells, while a lich bane permits a broad target selection and turns her shield into a damage ability
lich bane is rarely if ever the best item choice for raw damage, and there are three major reasons to build it
1) tower pushing (tf) 2) burst synergy with autoattack buffs already in kit (fizz) 3) get damage off utility skills (nidalee)
most champs that like lich hit two of the three criteria, and lux benefits from the burst and utility bonus. i think there's value in being able to stack burst on autoattacks rather than skillshots, even for players skilled at landing them. the utility consideration is also notable
of course, if dfg completely blows lich bane out of the water in terms of damage then the lich's unique benefits are negligible, but the fact that lich is preferred over dfg by many high level lux players makes me think this may not be the case
Speaking as somebody who actually played Lux, both DFG and Lich Bane are putting you too close to the enemy. The whole point of Lux is to be able to kite people and shoot lasers from far away. You're always better off getting more AP, then CDR, then tankiness, in that order. By the arguments you guys are making every hero should build trinity force and DFG because its cost effective damage.
On February 04 2014 04:52 Caller wrote: Speaking as somebody who actually played Lux, both DFG and Lich Bane are putting you too close to the enemy. The whole point of Lux is to be able to kite people and shoot lasers from far away. You're always better off getting more AP, then CDR, then tankiness, in that order. By the arguments you guys are making every hero should build trinity force and DFG because its cost effective damage.
I don't understand your complaint. DFG has the highest amount of AP for any item in the game bar deathcap. The stipulation on buying this item is after Deathcap, which means that DFG has the highest amount of AP of any item in the game for the lowest price. It also has CDR.
This means that, by your metric, DFG wins hands down for your final item. If just looking at the AP and CDR DFG should be placed ahead of Zhonya's. If just looking at final item damage minus the active liandrys beats it out, but Liandry's doesn't have any CDR.
What Lich Bane is really good on is champions who have very low cooldowns, but still have reasons to use autoattacks in fights. Ziggs is a good example.
Lux uses autoattacks in fights, but doesn't have low cooldowns. The only reason the DFG vs Lich Bane argument is even a thing is because there really is no perfect 6th item for her.
But, again, in terms of damage, a 6th item DFG outdamages a 6th item Lich Bane in basically any scenario, except for ones where you're A - missing lots of skillshots, or B - Not using the DFG active, or C - Fighting in AA range for unrealistically long periods of time.
The arguments I've seen in this thread for Lich Bane seem to always be centered around basically an assumption that you aren't going to be playing well, which seems really weird to me.
On February 04 2014 04:52 Caller wrote: Speaking as somebody who actually played Lux, both DFG and Lich Bane are putting you too close to the enemy. The whole point of Lux is to be able to kite people and shoot lasers from far away. You're always better off getting more AP, then CDR, then tankiness, in that order. By the arguments you guys are making every hero should build trinity force and DFG because its cost effective damage.
Your post makes me think that you're not aware that we're talking about DFG vs Lich Bane as 6th item, after already buying Athenes, Deathcap, Void and Zhonya.
On February 04 2014 08:10 Ketara wrote: What Lich Bane is really good on is champions who have very low cooldowns, but still have reasons to use autoattacks in fights. Ziggs is a good example.
Lux uses autoattacks in fights, but doesn't have low cooldowns. The only reason the DFG vs Lich Bane argument is even a thing is because there really is no perfect 6th item for her.
But, again, in terms of damage, a 6th item DFG outdamages a 6th item Lich Bane in basically any scenario, except for ones where you're A - missing lots of skillshots, or B - Not using the DFG active, or C - Fighting in AA range for unrealistically long periods of time.
The arguments I've seen in this thread for Lich Bane seem to always be centered around basically an assumption that you aren't going to be playing well, which seems really weird to me.
You advocated for no Ignite but think DFG is perfectly fine.
Also, you can't put a price on 6% move speed. That shit saves lives.
Debating about 6th items is a moot point. Sometimes you get a lich cause your team is good at kiting and you can proc it more than twice, sometimes you get a DFG cause you have an annoying assassin on your ass, sometimes you get a warmogs because your team sucks at kiting for you, and sometimes, people just like a certain item better than another.
And it doesn't look like cheep is trolling you...and this a public forum so I don't exactly know how you're going to get him out of this thread without him doing something worthy of a ban.
On February 04 2014 04:52 Caller wrote: Speaking as somebody who actually played Lux, both DFG and Lich Bane are putting you too close to the enemy. The whole point of Lux is to be able to kite people and shoot lasers from far away. You're always better off getting more AP, then CDR, then tankiness, in that order. By the arguments you guys are making every hero should build trinity force and DFG because its cost effective damage.
Your post makes me think that you're not aware that we're talking about DFG vs Lich Bane as 6th item, after already buying Athenes, Deathcap, Void and Zhonya.
if you're simply arguing about what to get as the 6th item, then Liandries is the best choice for pure damage.
meaning you could still do your athenes->deathcap->voidstaff-> zhonyas, but instead of getting dfg take liandries.
So, in this edition of lots of silly math with a shitty calculator for Lux, we're going to be concluding all of this 6th item discussion.
Basically, if you want a damage item, there are three candidates for 6th item for Lux: Liandry's Torment, Lich Bane and Deathfire Grasp. We've already talked about the theory, math and practical applications of these items quite a lot, and this is what we've found so far.
Lich Bane is, in terms of damage and defense, strictly inferior to Deathfire Grasp. It is essentially only worth buying if you're in a situation where its unique advantages are a big deal (movespeed, tower pushing, damage in long 1v1's), which basically means it's good if you're split pushing and bad otherwise. You typically don't split push on Lux, so in most games it's not the correct choice.
Liandry's Torment (to my surprise!) slightly outdamages Deathfire Grasp in terms of harassment damage during a siege, while DFG slightly outdamages Liandry in terms of 5v5 teamfight damage, and provides better team defense via stronger shields and more CDR.
What I want to look at today is which item has the best buildup. Realistically you don't actually complete a 6th item in many games, but there are a decent number of games where you start building one. So I'm going to be looking at four items today: Haunting Guise, Needlessly Large Rod, Fiendish Codex and Sheen. We're going to see which adds the most damage both in terms of burst and sustained damage, and which adds the most defense via shields.
Burst damage We're going to be looking at two things: a normal Q>E>R combo here, with only one passive proc, and then a secondary combo (Q>auto>E>auto) on a second spell rotation. I'm not going to add any Sheen damage to the first combo, but I will add Sheen to the second combo obviously. Just to make the math easier I'm not going to look at Spell/Blade Weaving.
We're going to look at a squishy end game target MR, so 122.85 MR (bveil + MR runes + locket.), and since we're also looking at Sheen damage, armor on the same target (I picked Jinx at 79.8 armor). Note that the higher the targets MR is the less Haunting Guise will be favored, and the higher their armor the less Sheen will be favored.
Main combo: 1190+205% AP Guise - 1821.19 NLR - 1750.78 Codex - 1653.47 Sheen - 1643.88
So basically, these numbers are not too surprising. Note that NLR and Guise break even at just above 200 target MR. Also note that the Sheen numbers in the second combo aren't that great, even with the extra Sheen damage.
Sustained Damage For this I want to look at your expected DPS if you're casting Q and E on cooldown, to see what your long range damage output in a siege is. Basically this is going to show how much of a benefit we get from CDR. Since we're talking a siege situation I'm not going to assume any passive procs.
So we can see here that the Fiendish Codex is the best for sustained damage, also not surprising. If you want to look at sustained damage in closer range and add passive/sheen procs Guise gets a bit closer to Codex, but Codex is still the best. The DPS on the Sheen proc is about 7.75 per Q>E rotation, and it's behind NLR even with this addition.
Shielding Benefit I want to see two things here. First, how many shield applications do we need to get in a fight for AP on NLR to be better than the 200 HP on Haunting Guise, and second, how much of a benefit is CDR giving to our shields. So for this I'm going to look at total amount shielded per application, and shielding per second per application.
Shield amount: 180+35% AP per application NLR - 413.02 Codex - 388.77 Guise/Sheen - 386.88
So given this, you need about 8 shield applications in a fight for NLR to be better defensively than Haunting Guise.
Shielding per second: 180+35% AP per target, 10s cooldown. Codex - 57.59 shielding per second per application NLR - 53.29 shielding per second per application Guise/Sheen - 49.92 shielding per second per application
So, the results here are not suprising. I think it's safe to assume that you're going to get 2 shield casts per teamfight, and going to get 4 effective shields per spellcast, so NLR is probably better defensively than Haunting Guise outside of a 1v1. I think it's also safe to say that with the CDR, Codex and NLR are roughly equal in shielding, with NLR being better in the initial spellcast and Codex being better over time.
TL;DR Conclusions
Here's what I get from all of the above:
Sheen is bad. Since it upgrades into something that is only good situationally, things aren't looking so great for the Lich Bane route.
For burst it goes Guise>NLR>Codex
For sustained it goes Codex>Guise>NLR
For defense it goes NLR=Codex>Guise
Personally, I like Fiendish Codex simply because it costs the least. After I buy this Codex is when I start constantly buying blue elixirs, which is kind of a big deal. Codex + blue elixir is about the same in burst as NLR (19 damage less in first combo, 1 damage over Sheen in second combo), but is far superior to all of the above for sustained damage and shielding and costs less. However, if you find yourself going shopping for a 6th item and already have 2000 gold, grabbing an NLR/Guise and an Elixir is probably going to be better than Codex + Elixir.
Personally I think in terms of buildup Haunting Guise + Elixir is probably the strongest while Codex + Elixir is the most cost efficient. In terms of finished item DFG is probably better than Liandry, all things considered.
I'm not counting blue buff into this calculation at all, because I feel like at this point in the game blue buff is better on somebody else in the team than it is on Lux, and blue buff doesn't have 100% uptime anyway. After you start getting elixirs it's definitely better to put it on somebody else.
I do think I'm underselling the shield value, because HP is only effective on Lux, while shielding is effective on whoever the enemy team is attacking, which is a big deal. Also because more HP makes you take more damage from % HP effects, and we all know every popular champion does some sort of % health damage these days.
Count the number of Lich Banes, and count the number of Morellonomicons, and count the number of Liandry's Torments, and count the number of Deathfire Grasps. I'll give you a hint: it's something like "more than 0," "more than 0," "more than 0," "0."
In addition to the aforementioned, let's look at a sample list of items that we see more than DFG:
-Tear of the Goddess/Archangel's Staff/Seraph's Embrace -Abyssal Sceptre -Mejai's Soul Stealer
Yes Cheep, pro players make bad item choices. I know that's a surprise. You also might notice that only one game in all of those goes late enough to even buy a 6th item DFG, and that's Froggen who is well known for weird and unconventional/nonsensical item builds.
On February 07 2014 03:43 Ketara wrote: I do think I'm underselling the shield value, because HP is only effective on Lux, while shielding is effective on whoever the enemy team is attacking, which is a big deal. Also because more HP makes you take more damage from % HP effects, and we all know every popular champion does some sort of % health damage these days.
Obviously shield > HP in the sense that your shield helps your teammates and HP doesn't. But otherwise the laughably small % health damage increase is far, far, far outweighed by the fact that a shield is temporary and HP is not. Only if the entire shield breaks on both applications, every single time, is it equal to its HP equivalent.
In any given teamfight, by your math, each NLR shield application is only 27 more than a Haunting Guise. That means that in order for NLR to outscale Guise for tankiness, your shield has to break 8 times before you reach the breakeven point between NLR/Guise.
On February 07 2014 03:56 Ketara wrote: Yes Cheep, pro players make bad item choices. I know that's a surprise. You also might notice that only one game in all of those goes late enough to even buy a 6th item DFG, and that's Froggen who is well known for weird and unconventional/nonsensical item builds.
Please get out of my thread.
But with the power of MATH you can be a pro gamer too?
Have you considered there are parts of this game that are insolvable by nature of extrinsic or non-modelable factors, but that could be easily revealed through empirical experience, i.e. the thousands of games a pro player has done.
I mean in your own guide you state "I just don't like it" and "I feel that it is" but do so on a level presuming you understand this game better than people paid to play it and straight write off Morellonomicon despite it being a very common item choice.
For a guide design for new players the last thing you do is shoehorn them into a a single build, especially one that may not even be the more optimal one in the majority of situations.
You might also notice that in the one Froggen game that does go 6 items, he goes Seraphs+Morellos instead of getting Athenes. This means he's got 36.855 more AP in this build than he would with the build we've been talking about after buying Lich Bane.
That's not really a giant deal, but it is 27.64 more damage per Lich Bane proc and 75.55 more per combo, which reduces the amount of extra damage a DFG combo does over a Lich Bane combo to less than 50. While in that situation DFG would still be doing more damage to tanks, it's enough to make it so Lich Bane is doing more teamfight damage to squishy targets. If you look at the game, everybody on the enemy team is fairly squishy (Trynd top, Vi jungle who built a good amount of damage and is nowhere near full build at the end of the game)
Xes, I'd challenge you to find a pro player who played more ranked Lux games in season 3 than I did. I doubt you're going to find one. I'm not a professional player, but as I've said before I've played a LOT of Lux, I've tried all of the builds and item paths we've discussed, and I've found what I think is the best. I'm using the math to reinforce that, not to prove it.
If you're going to make a post please actually put some effort into it.
Tell me what you would suggest as an alternative for an armor item vs. a 5 AD enemy team.
The obvious candidate would be Randuins, so lets look at that. It's clear that Randuins is going to make you tankier than Iceborne would, but I want to see just how big of a difference it is. We'll assume you're getting sorc shoes for this.
Here are your stats with these items: Randuin - 223.65 armor, 2372.09 HP, 610.155 AP Iceborne - 223.65 armor, 1857.09 HP, 651.105 AP
So, counting your shield and barrier, this is your effective HP with each. I'm going to show it for 1 shield cast and for 2: Randuin - 8035.89 1 shield, 8823 2 shields Iceborne - 6948.2 1 shield, 7764 2 shields
So your effective HP is about 13-15% higher with Randuin over Iceborne.
Lets look at the slows now. With Randuin you get one 35% slow for 3.5 seconds at 500 range.
With Iceborne you get 2 seconds of 30% slow every 6 seconds at 550 range. So the initial Randuin slow is better, but the Iceborne slow is better by the second Sheen proc.
What I'm not looking at here is the attackspeed slow, which is admittedly a big deal.
But, I want to put this in perspective for you. These builds against an all AD team are ridiculously tanky. If you compare it to say, a late game Amumu who has Sunfire, Randuin, Golem Stone and Ninja Tabi, he's got 9070.90 effective HP.
So if you're buying this much armor, you're as tanky as your tank jungler is with Randuins.
I've found that in real games, you don't actually need to be this tanky. The 70 armor from Iceborne is enough to ensure that you're just not going to die, and the AP, CDR and extra Sheen damage is more valuable than the 500 HP.
But yes, Randuins would make you tankier than Iceborne. A second Zhonya would make you less tanky but give you a lot more damage, for what it's worth.
If you're vs double AD carry you can just cap out CDR and go for more AP and go for lasers and hope your team isn't trash
Otherwise, you can still get CDR and spam your shield on cooldown for eHP against AD, if that's not enough, you're probably just ass at playing lux, or the enemy team is diving you hella hard and you can just get MS (lich bane) or GA.
In no case is IBG ever a good item on Lux outside of trolling. You pay a shitton of gold for mana you don't need, since by your GREAT MATH you'll have enough mana regen and base mana; you pay a shitton of gold for a Sheen proc that by the GREAT MATH OF MODELS is shitty buildup and not damage efficient. You're putting gold value on the kitability from the shitty slow that requires AA procs but not in the kitability that lich bane gives you. You'd get more value out of a Rylai's than an IBG.
The Iceborne suggestion is for situations where you actually want an extra armor item. It doesn't happen very often, I've probably built it in 1 or 2 of 600+ ranked Lux games.
But in that rare situation where the enemy team is Tryndamere, Zed, Fiora, Ashe Janna or something stupid like that, it can be useful.
Since your suggestion is that you'd rather just stick with Zhonya and buy more damage, I agree. That is typically the right decision, and is what you do in most games even when the enemy team is all AD. But if you're actually going to buy a second defensive item against an all AD team, I think Iceborne is the best of the available options because you don't need the tankiness of Randuins, you want something that gives you armor but also some damage too.
On February 07 2014 06:09 Ketara wrote: The Iceborne suggestion is for situations where you actually want an extra armor item. It doesn't happen very often, I've probably built it in 1 or 2 of 600+ ranked Lux games.
But in that rare situation where the enemy team is Tryndamere, Zed, Fiora, Ashe Janna or something stupid like that, it can be useful.
Since your suggestion is that you'd rather just stick with Zhonya and buy more damage, I agree. That is typically the right decision, and is what you do in most games even when the enemy team is all AD. But if you're actually going to buy a second defensive item against an all AD team, I think Iceborne is the best of the available options because you don't need the tankiness of Randuins, you want something that gives you armor but also some damage too.
In that situation I'd rather get a GA than IBG if you weren't pro enough to get by without a 2nd defensive item.
Since all of Lux's damaging spells are AoE, the slow from Iceborne is actually more effective on her than the slow from Rylai.
If you were going to buy a Rylai in that situation, buying a second Zhonya would be better.
As for GA, there's nothing wrong with getting GA really. It's not quite as cost efficient because you're paying a ton of gold for MR you don't use, but IBG isn't too cost efficient either since extra mana is not very useful that late in the game. It also doesn't give any damage and like I've said, I've found that the armor on IBG is all you need to basically never get killed. IBG also has a cleaner buildup than GA.
The thing about Lux and GA is that Lux doesn't really get much use out of GA. Her spells have long cooldowns so it's very possible that none of them are up when she revives, and all four of them have cast times so it's entirely possible for you to die again before you're able to cast anything.
That said, I think GA is fine if you want a second defensive item and can get some use from the MR, or in situations where you literally cannot keep yourself from dying. If some assassin on the enemy team is SO fed that you are going to die regardless of what you buy, then GA is the only second defensive item worth getting. The other option in that situation is to just go all damage with the concept that you'll get one full spell rotation off and after that you're going to be dead regardless.
Meh if you're getting sniped by some crazy dive team and you're "forced" to get a 2nd armor item, something is really wrong. Lux's entire kit + flash should make her a kiting god. Arguing for IBG on a lux is the same thing as advocating building a frozen mallet on Ashe.
On February 07 2014 06:27 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: "Ignite on the other hand often has too short a range for Lux to pair it with her long range spell rotation."
"Dfg range > lichbane range so if you change get the active on dfg off you can't get lichbane off"
Good thing IBG has 2000 range so it isn't constrained by these factors!
On January 31 2014 04:15 Goumindong wrote: Dfg range > lichbane range so if you change get the active on dfg off you can't get lichbane off. The lichbane proc is considerably more important to its dps than the dfgs active is to its.
Just wanted to point out that Cheep is now trying to quote other people in the thread without saying who it was in an effort to make it look like I'm contradicting myself.
On January 31 2014 04:47 Ketara wrote: When you do the math and add all that together, you find that you need at least 3 Lich Bane procs in order to outdamage DFG, and if each of your spells is hitting multiple people, it's more like 4. Even if you don't use the DFG active as part of a combo and just use it to add damage to whoever gets into the back line like you would Lich Bane, you're having to fight for at least 14 seconds for Lich Bane to overtake DFG in damage, since it takes you 14 seconds to get 3 Lich Bane procs. If you're playing well, hitting multiple targets and using DFG to add bonus damage to your second Q-E rotation, it's more like 4 Lich Bane procs and we're talking 21 seconds for Lich Bane to be better.
The discussion about IBG is in relation to games where you want to buy a second defensive item. Nowhere have I said it's a good damage item. What I have said is that it gives you more damage than other armor items do.
So, saying that Lich Bane is inferior to DFG as a damage item is not contradicting a statement that IBG is good as a second defensive item vs. an all AD team.
On February 07 2014 07:01 Ketara wrote: I'm not sure how that's me contradicting myself.
The discussion about IBG is in relation to games where you want to buy a second defensive item. Nowhere have I said it's a good damage item. What I have said is that it gives you more damage than other armor items do.
So, saying that Lich Bane is inferior to DFG as a damage item is not contradicting a statement that IBG is good as a second defensive item vs. an all AD team.
TIL when you buy a second defensive item because you're about to die, your primary concern is not what keeps you alive but what does more damage.
That 30 AP and 10% CDR is a lot better than 500 health and a kiting aura or a revive. Very important, definitely game changing.
The scenarios and "mathcraft" you put out are about as practical as physics problems that assume a massless, frictionless pulley.
In comparing DFG vs Lichbane, you say the fact that DFG outranges Lichbane is a big plus (yet forgetting that AA range is more than spell range by ~150 depending on size of character box radius), yet in discussing IBG, somehow the proc has value, despite the fact that you will pretty much never get it off, compounded by the fact that slow stacking is terrible between lux E and IBG. When I made the offhanded remark to Rylais, doing a comparison would thus involve computing the gold value of extra slow on your Q and R at 1200 range compared to only ~700 range, as trash as the Rylais slow would be.
I can make up situations and models and plug in numbers and get results too. You claim a lot of experience with Lux, which is great for someone writing a guide, and an excellent basis for making recommendations on playstyle. From your experience, you advocate DFG, which is also fine because DFG gives tons of AP and some CDR regardless of whether you can ever use the active. However, Lichbane and Morellonomicon and Seraph's are all equally fine given the empirical experience of players better than you (but maybe not better than you at making up models and plugging in numbers), yet you completely dismiss these on the basis of your metrics and contrivances alone.
What we're saying is that your defensive proclamations that ceteris parabis X item beats Y item is completely flawed because your models and situations are unrealistic.
On February 07 2014 07:22 xes wrote: In comparing DFG vs Lichbane, you say the fact that DFG outranges Lichbane is a big plus (yet forgetting that AA range is more than spell range by ~150 depending on size of character box radius), yet in discussing IBG, somehow the proc has value, despite the fact that you will pretty much never get it off, compounded by the fact that slow stacking is terrible between lux E and IBG. When I made the offhanded remark to Rylais, doing a comparison would thus involve computing the gold value of extra slow on your Q and R at 1200 range compared to only ~700 range, as trash as the Rylais slow would be.
I can make up situations and models and plug in numbers and get results too. You claim a lot of experience with Lux, which is great for someone writing a guide, and an excellent basis for making recommendations on playstyle. From your experience, you advocate DFG, which is also fine because DFG gives tons of AP and some CDR regardless of whether you can ever use the active. However, Lichbane and Morellonomicon and Seraph's are all equally fine given the empirical experience of players better than you (but maybe not better than you at making up models and plugging in numbers), yet you completely dismiss these on the basis of your metrics and contrivances alone.
What we're saying is that your defensive proclamations that ceteris parabis X item beats Y item is completely flawed because your models and situations are unrealistic.
I didn't say that the DFG active outranging Lich Bane was a big plus. I said it was worth noting. It is worth noting, but it's not a terribly big deal.
The IBG proc has value because of the slow, not because of the damage. The damage is a plus but it's not a lot of damage. The big deal is the 70 armor. The added damage is just because at that point you have basically all the armor you could possibly need, and want the rest of the stats on your item to add damage.
Lich Bane is, by the numbers, very similar to DFG, but in terms of raw damage is inferior to DFG in essentially every realistic situation given the same rest of the build. We've gone over a lot of different situations with this, including ones that are extremely favorable to Lich Bane, so it's hard for me to see where you say that I'm giving unrealistic situations. In a standard, realistic situation DFG is even more superior to Lich Bane than I say it is in the guide.
Lich Bane has some choice moments when it is better, when you're split pushing or fighting lots of late game 1v1's (or when you do a different build that has higher AP), but these things don't happen in hardly any games because Lux just isn't used as a dueller or a split pusher. I mean, if it would make you feel better I could put Lich Bane up on the guide as an alternative item for when you're split pushing, but in terms of a "normal game" it's just not as good.
I'm also not the only person saying that. Dae who is our diamond 1 Lux player also said that in a normal game you get DFG over Lich Bane because the stats are better.
I've never dismissed the Seraph+Morello build. I said in the guide that I can see the appeal of it, know some pro players do it and I've tried it, but I personally don't like it as much. I also included brief instructions on how to do it, but said that I'm not going to be covering it in depth because I A - Don't like it as much, and B - Just don't have enough experience with it to do so.
I went back and looked through all the arithmetic, and again, you're using unrealistic situations. Lichbane helps burst towers in sieges and gives 5% MS which is extremely nontrivial given the kiting of Lux's kit
League isn't a game where 10 dudes stand still pressing all the buttons and racing to see which side gets the DPS counter up the highest
Yes, if your team needs help taking down towers Lich Bane is fine.
But in terms of raw damage, DFG does more damage than Lich Bane. I don't know what sort of realistic situation you're talking about where it doesn't, please suggest one.
We've kind of been over this a few times at this point.
Edit: Updated the guide to add Lich Bane in as an alternative item option when split pushing or tower pushing is important, since this is such a big deal to you guys.
My realistic situation is the one where standing around circlejerking DPS numbers, which is the only thing you mention in your guide in the section of DFG vs Lichbane, is not the only relevant dimensional factor, which is happens the entire game.
Sure cheep has been trolly, but he's raised legitimate criticisms that you dismiss the validity of because you start with categorically flawed assumptions. Raw DPS or eHP are not the only factors that matter, a point you superficially acknowledge a priori, but then inscrutably ignore in any posterior discussion. Obviously these calculations are the only ones feasible, but out of some epistemic terror, you present the feasible set as the entire realm without giving consideration to any intractable computations. When intrinsic values are not given, you can estimate the value using extrinsic factors, i.e. the combined empirical record (as a form of Monte Carlo), which the record provides strong evidence that Lich Bane is weakly dominant (a far weaker postulation than your rebuttals against strong dominance) unilateral alternative to DFG.
I don't think movespeed is a hugely important stat for Lux.
It's alright, it's not worthless. The thing is Lux is typically in the very back of the team for fights, so she should be the last person getting targetted and has already cast her whole spell rotation once or twice before she takes any damage. That's why damage and CDR are so much higher value, movespeed helps Lux keep herself alive but doesn't help her win the fight or keep her team alive.
In terms of a 1v1 or something like that it's more important. I've acknowledged that Lich Bane is better than DFG in a 1v1 against Tanks or Bruisers in the thread a couple times, but have said that it's not a super important consideration because A - You don't want to be getting in that situation with Lux, and B - Lux typically loses late game 1v1 fights with tanks/bruisers with either item.
Lux is good at kiting people but what makes her good at kiting people is lots of CDR to hit her snare with, not movespeed. Even with Lich Bane her base movespeed is low enough that she's likely not moving as fast as your typical ADC/bruiser/Assassin, since they will have better movespeed items and some sort of movement tools in their kit. So if your snare misses, Lich Bane isn't a big enough difference for you to get away most of the time. I'd say 10% CDR on DFG for more snares and slows is roughly equivalent to Lich Banes MS in terms of kiting.
The other time when movespeed is good is in lane dodging skillshots vs. like a Nidalee or an Orianna or a Gragas, but we're not talking about Lich Bane in terms of laning, we're talking about it as a 6th item, so these aren't super huge concerns. If somebody got Lich Bane to dodge late game Nidalee spears I wouldn't fault them.
The key point that I've been trying to make all this time is that, in terms of damage, DFG is better than Lich Bane. I'm not saying you should never buy Lich Bane, but that if you do so, you are sacrificing damage for some other need.
There are all kinds of individual situations where some other item is more important. I've bought a 6th item Lich Bane on Lux. I've also gotten Banshee's Veil, GA, a second Zhonyas, as well as Sightstone, and none of those are even mentioned in the guide because the circumstances for them are so rare that I didn't feel the need to include them.
The key consideration is that, in a normal game you want to be building damage, and the highest damage 6th item is DFG. That's your starting point. If the specific game necessitates that you deviate from that, then do it. But do it with the understanding that you are deviating from damage to some other requirement.
I think if you're getting Lich Bane for the move speed you're buying the item for all the wrong reasons. Just get Twin Shadows if you're having trouble surviving even with Zhonya's, it gives you the same move speed, 50MR, and an active slow. Lich Bane is a damage item, so treating its 6% move speed as "but it also helps you survive!" seems like you're trying way too hard to justify the buy.
Twin Shadows as a second item after Athene's when very behind against an AP actually felt like a really strong buy. Build path was perfect for a feeding budget, and the active giving vision + the added move speed and MR made surviving lane a whole lot easier. Playing against a good Veigar when your ping suddenly starts spiking to 200-400 is hard.
...the last time anyone built that item was on twisted fate, and the only reason it even works remotely well on him is because it helps him catch people after he ults.
Buying that item late is dumb, and buying it early is even dumber. Especially on a mid lux. If i'm going to die, i'm going to die taking someone down with me. No point in living if you do no damage anyways.
The combo damage against squishies is about 2% higher with Liandries, but the DFG active is enough damage on its own, regardless of the target or how well you work it into a combo, to make it do more overall damage in a fight. Then the AP and CDR on DFG makes your shields and sustained damage better, which is a big deal.
When we did the Liandries math we found it was better than I initially thought it was though. I think a 6th item Liandries is fine, but I still think DFG is better all things considered.
As far as Twin Shadows goes, it's important to note that the AP on it was increased from 40 to 50 with the preseason patch. I wouldn't buy it as a late game item like InfSunday suggested because it's not slot efficient, but it's actually surprisingly cost efficient now. Let me walk you through this.
You're playing against some AP mid and you screw up for whatever reason, and you're terribly behind. You can't help from getting your ass kicked in lane now. This shouldn't really happen to Lux, Lux is extremely good at preventing this from happening in basically any matchup, but for some reason it's happened in this example game.
You want to buy more MR to keep yourself from feeding in lane and let you keep farming and catch up. So you buy a Negatron. 40 MR for 720 gold. Now, following this you're too behind for Deathcap to hit the critical 2 item farm timing, so instead you're going to want to get Void Staff first. So the next item you would buy would be a Blasting Wand. 40 AP for 860 gold.
So at this point you've spent 1580 gold for 40 MR and 40 AP, right?
If you instead go towards Twin Shadows, you're spending an extra 420 gold for 10 AP, 6% movespeed and the active. Based on an NLR we can value the AP at about 200 gold, so that's 6% movespeed and the active for 220 gold. I know somebody is going to be like "But you just said the 5% movespeed on Lich Bane wasn't worth it" and I did, and late game it's not that big a deal. But like I said above, during laning it actually is a pretty big deal, and now we're talking about an item that helps you survive laning.
The active actually works pretty well on Lux in lane, because you can use it to help guarantee a Q or an R hit, or to get away from a gank. I'd say it has better synergy with Lux's kit than with most champions.
Finally, the build path is very friendly. Rather than having to wait to buy a Negatron and then wait again to buy a Blasting Wand, you should be able to buy a piece of Twin Shadows every time you base. And if you get the Null Magic Mantle and an Amp Tome and then decide that's enough to stabilize the lane, you can just sit on the Mantle, sell it late game, and turn the Amp Tome into that Void Staff anyway.
So basically, Twin Shadows isn't an ideal option, you don't exactly want it. But if you need the MR to survive a lane, it's actually more cost efficient now than it was in S3 and isn't so bad as an emergency pickup.
The other option is to buy the Negatron and just sell it later, which is also fine.
If you' want to talk cost efficient/i'm losing lane and i need help, then get double drings and build towards a morellonomicon. If you have to buy more resists than from what you get from a chalice or an armguard, then the lane is already fucked and you can't do anything anyways.
This is nothing personal, but I really want to shoot people who bring math into itemization discussion. No one gives a shit about the Ap/gold ratio or extra random stats; you need to be caring about what your item is going to bring into the team fight in the future. If you have to itemize more than 1500 total gold into surviving a lane (including wards, boots, and pots) before you start building towards your first big item, you're going to be behind. For reference, that's about the price of 2 drings, t1 boots, 5 pots, 2 green wards, and 1 pink ward. Anything else you buy should go towards your main item. And if you still think twin shadows is a good pick up for when you're behind or you want to throw more cost efficiency bullshit numbers at everyone, the morello is just as easy to build, 300 more gold and gives you +20% CDR and more AP than a grail, and it gives you mana regen.
Moral of the story: Using an item as a crutch to survive the mid lane when you're behind is 100% incorrect. If you're getting killed in lane, learn to position better and get the jungler to help
You don't want to bring math into itemization discussion, but you do want to suggest a ton of items that are just not very efficient on Lux.
Like, lets say you're losing lane and you go double dring after Chalice. You get 160 HP, 30 AP and a bunch of regen out of that.
The regen is not particularly helpful because you're behind, probably getting in lots of bad trades with the enemy laner, and don't have the CDR to prevent those trades with E farming.
160 HP is alright, but it's not super great for Lux because her defenses scale with resists, not with HP. 30 AP is alright.
Instead you could have just put that 800 gold towards finishing Athenes faster. That gives you all the regen you need, CDR to make use of that regen, more resists and more AP. If you compared Athenes to Chalice, Codex and 2 Drings, it's pretty obvious you'd want Athenes.
Or lets say you're losing the lane after finishing Athenes and you want to buy 2 drings after that. Now the regen you're buying is overkill, so for 800g you're looking at 30 AP and 160 HP. For basically the same price you could get a null magic mantle and amp tome, which gives you better defensive stats (for Lux) and 20 AP, and can actually build into other things. For that matter a Ruby Crystal and Amp Tome would be better.
Not to mention going 2 drings puts you at 5 items (2 rings, flask, chalice/athenes, boots) and makes it difficult to build your next item, but y'know.
I don't think I need to explain that going Morello's after getting Chalice is just dumb, and wouldn't give you the defensive stats necessary to survive a lane in which you're behind anyway.
"Using an item as a crutch to survive the mid lane when you're behind is 100% incorrect" is just bad advice. I agree that if you're getting killed in lane you should learn how to not get killed in lane. That is obvious. But it's not very likely that you're going to learn how to stop a snowball that has already started. You can learn for the next game, but in the current game, not getting killed and preventing the snowball is the correct way to play, even if it means you have to buy an unwanted item to ensure that.
Not to mention that getting a Null Magic Mantle is more or less within this 1500g limit you've set. Since Athenes is your "main item", all you're really buying to survive the lane is Boots, a Flask, Amp Tome and a Null Magic Mantle. That's 1505 gold. The other Amp Tome can go into your next item (Void Staff) (or Athenes for that matter) if you feel like the lane has stabilized and you can start building damage again.
I feel like you are giving itemization advice that may make sense for other champions, but not for Lux.
Also PS: Please don't say you want to shoot me. That's kind of rude.
What I was saying in terms of late game Twin Shadows wasn't phrased correctly because I forgot we were talking about 6th item Lich Bane. I was trying to point out how silly it is to talk about how the 6% move speed on LB helps you survive, as if somehow it's a defensive item. What.
Next time I'll go negatron>void, thanks. Situationally I still feel like Twin Shadows wasn't a bad buy, I had a couple times where I dodged Veigar's stun by inches because of the move speed, and then the slow helped hit stun in ganks. Maybe not 100% efficient or correct, but it certainly felt smooth and it helped me remain alive and grow back into relevancy.
1. You get double drings before chalice. I used to skip out on drings too when i was playing farming champs like orianna and karthus, but I've realized that if you're not faker, you lose lane control, gank survivability, and skirmish capabilities pre-6, which is pretty important when it comes to all the roaming mids you have to face. Skip them at your own discretion
I personally would rather be down -800 gold in itemization than risk massively losing the lane to the point where I'm a full item behind. If I do lose the lane with double drings, shame on me.
(also, i've never seen a dumbass buy 2 drings after they finish a chalice; what makes you think I meant to buy them after finishing an item?)
2. I don't think I wrote this very clearly because I was in the middle of class but your gold income is split into two categories: 1500 gold for laning + all the rest of your gold for teamfighting. Build whatever the fuck you want with the first 1500 gold; it doesn't matter. People like drings, I like drings, you like ruby crystals and flasks -- doesn't matter. But every penny you make after that needs to go to wards and your main items. I can agree with you that we all want to get a completed item as quickly as you can. What i'm saying is that you have max of 1500 gold to lane with, and building a twin shadow puts you way over that limit. You can take out the drings and replace them with a negatron and no one will give a fuck, but it's been tried and true that 1 or 2 drings will solidify your laning presence
3. Defensive stats are not worth it on carries. Anything more than the resists you get from armguard and from chalice is way too much. 1) you shouldn't be getting caught that much for extra resists to pay off anyways 2) if you get caught you're most likely dead anyways, and 3) you're supposed to be doing the killing and you're useless if you don't do dmg. If you're building extraneous defensive stats on a mid laner, you really need to improve your basic positioning in the lane or stop doing stupid shit. That we can agree on.
But are you really suggesting that if you're heavily losing your lane, that you build defensive items as 1st or 2nd items so you can live 3 seconds longer? Wtf is that going to do in a teamfight? They'll just kill you after they kill the rest of your team because you're 25 cs and 3 kills behind and that you put yourself behind however much gold you spent on extra resists. This is probably the most common noob mistake I see when people going back to buy, and you're actually advising people to buy a 2nd resist item on top of an armguard or a chalice?
Lets say, since you seem to only understand leagues from a mathematical standpoint, you've died to a gragas 4 times and you already have a chalice and double drings (i.e, if you spend anymore on laning items, you're hurting yourself more than you're helping yourself). You back with exactly 860 gold. Do you buy a codex, wand, a negatron cloak, or a mantle + tome? Are you seriously going to suggest to people that "because you're extremely behind, you need to buy survivability items, so you should buy a mantle and a tome because that will give you the most bang for your buck"? Is this what you're getting at?
And then lets say that that that some bronze lux decides to buy a negatron cloak instead of the codex. Getting a negatron cloak puts you -720 gold behind the enemy mid laner in terms of items. That's 720 less gold that you have that can't be put towards AP (unless you spend 1900 more gold for an abyssal). You're putting yourself 2 kills and an assist behind, on top of however many kills and cs you are already behind, so that you can somehow try and farm the lane, when it's most likely 15 minutes in and the lane is already over? This is the idea I'm trying to get at here.
4. Why did you assume I said to build a morello after an incompleted chalice? You build it to get a quicker power spike so you can kill the other guy before he kills you and for a bigger presence for the dragon. That's just how the mid lane works. 880 gold for a chalice then building a morello defeats the purpose of the morello in the first place
On February 08 2014 07:37 InfSunday wrote: What I was saying in terms of late game Twin Shadows wasn't phrased correctly because I forgot we were talking about 6th item Lich Bane. I was trying to point out how silly it is to talk about how the 6% move speed on LB helps you survive, as if somehow it's a defensive item. What.
Next time I'll go negatron>void, thanks. Situationally I still feel like Twin Shadows wasn't a bad buy, I had a couple times where I dodged Veigar's stun by inches because of the move speed, and then the slow helped hit stun in ganks. Maybe not 100% efficient or correct, but it certainly felt smooth and it helped me remain alive and grow back into relevancy.
Veigar is countered by merc treads. His W, Q, and R are about 200 range shorter than his max stun range, so he needs like 1 or 2 seconds to walk up to you. You shouldn't have a problem with him until he maxes his stun, which by that time, you should be able to get a banshee after you have a dcap, voidstaff, and chalice
Like, the advice that you're giving isn't wrong Blind. It just isn't applicable to Lux, for a number of reasons. Let me try to explain.
#1 - Lux doesn't get much from AP, at least not compared to a lot of other conventional mid laners. Orianna for example has 230% AP in her kit and also an AP ratio on every autoattack, and Oriannas AP ratios aren't amazing. Lux has 205%.
This may not seem like a very big deal, but what it means is that opening Dring on Lux is just not as good as opening Flask. On a lot of other mids opening Dring gives you more power in the initial lane, but on Lux it doesn't. I know you don't want me to be all woah math on you, so just trust me on that one.
So you're either going Flask into two Drings, or Flask into Chalice. The thing here is, again because Lux's AP ratios are not great, because she has a really good shield that scales with MR, and because she prefers short harass style engagements instead of one all in in lane, the Chalice makes it easier for her to lane than the Drings against basically everyone. Buying the chalice lets you keep up your harassment since your mana costs are atrocious, and the MR with your shield lets you win trades better than AP does. So you're buying the Chalice first.
After you have the Chalice, getting Drings or Morellos at that point of the game is dumb, like you've said.
#2 - I'm not suggesting that you should want to build extra defenses. You obviously don't want to. Eventually you're going to learn what to do, how to not die when behind (especially on Lux who is really good at it) and all of these things.
But if you're a new player and you're behind in lane in a matchup that you have never played before, and some Leblanc or whatever is dunking you over and over? Yeah, buy the extra MR. It's not ideal, but it's better than you going 0/8 in lane and Leblanc then destroying everybody else on your team. I'd much rather that mid Lux be 0/3 and holding lane with 1000g in stats she didn't want than 0/8 and 8/0 Leblanc terrorizing bot lane.
Ultimately you want to learn how to not get into that situation in the first place. But telling people to just get better isn't the right advice. Get better for future games, but in the current game suck it up and buy some MR.
I do think it's funny that you go into all this about not buying defensive stats and then suggest that vs. Veigar you buy more defensive stats than I ever would, for what it's worth. And I really don't appreciate the tone. The personal attacks are not cool.
If I seem like im personally attacking you, im sorry; this is just how i normally talk.
I used to play orianna and lux with flask start as well, but I've just found that you either attract too much unwanted attention or not enough attention at all. The more you trade, the more likely it is that you're going to get ganked. And the more you trade, the harder it is to tell if he's just trading or if you're getting ganked. The opposite extreme of that is that you just play your lane super passively and just farm, which is hit or miss depending on how good your other lanes are.
And how is drings > merc boots > athenes, dcap ,voidstaff > banshee more defensive stats that than you would ever buy? And getting defensive stats as the 6th item is completely acceptable; buying defensive before offensive on a carry is dumb.
And we can just agree to disagree on how people should learn leagues; im not about to start creationism vs darwinism ver. LoL
I think if you're going to buy a Banshee as your fourth big item on Lux then something is seriously wrong with that particular game. 6th item is fine, 4th item ehhhhh. If you do have to buy a Negatron, I would just stop at that. Realistically that should be all or more than all Lux needs for defense.
Merc treads vs. Veigar is a good tip though.
I think dring start is better on Orianna (her passive is redonk) but on Lux it's not. If her AP ratios were just a tiny bit higher I think it might be different, but they're not.
I used to play orianna and lux with flask start as well, but I've just found that you either attract too much unwanted attention or not enough attention at all. The more you trade, the more likely it is that you're going to get ganked. And the more you trade, the harder it is to tell if he's just trading or if you're getting ganked. The opposite extreme of that is that you just play your lane super passively and just farm, which is hit or miss depending on how good your other lanes are.
If you keep up with your warding i think there's no such thing as too much attention (unless you outscale and can/want to win safely) until their jungler hits 6. Well at least for solo Q since you don't know if you're the worst laner in your team or have a pre-made strat or whatever.
On February 08 2014 09:15 Ketara wrote: I think if you're going to buy a Banshee as your fourth big item on Lux then something is seriously wrong with that particular game. 6th item is fine, 4th item ehhhhh. If you do have to buy a Negatron, I would just stop at that. Realistically that should be all or more than all Lux needs for defense.
Merc treads vs. Veigar is a good tip though.
I think dring start is better on Orianna (her passive is redonk) but on Lux it's not. If her AP ratios were just a tiny bit higher I think it might be different, but they're not.
Banshee's vs Veigar is a pretty valuable early buy against Veigar because he can't catch you out if he has to lead with his Q. His primary means of killing someone is picking them with a cage and then nuking them. BV means he can't pick you with the cage. If he can't pick you with the cage he can't kill you. You could also go QSS. After you've got your primary damage items this type of pickup makes a lot of sense, but only because Veigar is a special case
What does anyone think about getting blue trinket on Lux particularly for blue steals with ult, which is one of the best ways to get ahead early as Lux. it could also help with drag/baron steals and snipes. Yellow trinket can help with that too, but you have a pretty small window there and regular wards are not always affordable. IMO the blue trinket sucks but my nostalgia for old-school CV support makes me want to love it. Maybe transitioning into it later could be useful too since trinket swaps are free.
Also, the instant Ziggs gets nerfed (likely into the ground, gg Riot) I am hopping on the Lux train!
So, there was an interesting post in GD today about Archmage vs. the Hybrid Pen mastery. I did some math for this re: Lux.
What I found was that when you have lots of AP, Archmage outdamages the pen. At level 1 the hybrid pen outdamages Archmage (even the first point of Archmage).
I didn't consume myself with looking into how much AP you need in order for the positions to reverse, but here's the way I see it. As Lux you're not going to buy any AP until after you have boots, chalice and flask, which means you're usually at minimum level 7 or 8 before you get any AP at all. If the pen mastery is better at level 1, it's going to continue to be better for quite some time since your base damage will increase and you won't be buying any AP. I think it's very likely that it's still better at least until you've finished Athenes and started building Deathcap, which means as far as even the first 20 minutes of the game.
So I'm content with keeping the Hybrid Pen mastery over Archmage, although when going 24/0/6 you take both obvs. But basically here's how it works in terms of masteries so you can decide what you want when going 21/9/0 or 21/0/9:
Spell/Blade weaving: Good early game, weak late game Hybrid Pen: Middle ground Archmage: Good late game, weak early game
On February 10 2014 11:31 Ketara wrote: So, there was an interesting post in GD today about Archmage vs. the Hybrid Pen mastery. I did some math for this re: Lux.
What I found was that when you have lots of AP, Archmage outdamages the pen. At level 1 the hybrid pen outdamages Archmage (even the first point of Archmage).
I didn't consume myself with looking into how much AP you need in order for the positions to reverse, but here's the way I see it. As Lux you're not going to buy any AP until after you have boots, chalice and flask, which means you're usually at minimum level 7 or 8 before you get any AP at all. If the pen mastery is better at level 1, it's going to continue to be better for quite some time since your base damage will increase and you won't be buying any AP. I think it's very likely that it's still better at least until you've finished Athenes and started building Deathcap, which means as far as even the first 20 minutes of the game.
So I'm content with keeping the Hybrid Pen mastery over Archmage, although when going 24/0/6 you take both obvs. But basically here's how it works in terms of masteries so you can decide what you want when going 21/9/0 or 21/0/9:
Spell/Blade weaving: Good early game, weak late game Hybrid Pen: Middle ground Archmage: Good late game, weak early game
I dont get why there is even a choice between them? I almost always get both.
This is what I've been running mid lane (1 point in cdr/butcher is personal preference). Masteries
Edit: This was my 666'th post, forgot to mention Teemo is evil.
So, here are my presumptions re: Lux for patch 4.2
For mid: Ziggs nerf should make that matchup a bit easier, although I imagine it will still be Ziggs playing aggressive and Lux playing more passive and reactionary.
Kayle nerf should make that lane a little easier.
I think the Riven change will also make Riven mid a bit weaker, although I'm not sure on that one.
Yasuo and Shiv nerfs should make that lane a little easier for Lux post 6. I already think Lux is quite strong vs Yasuo, but if you don't punish him pre 6 he gets hard to deal with, and this should lessen that somewhat.
Mundo and Defense mastery changes should cut down on the number of high HP tanks we see all the time, which is good for Lux since she's typically considered a poor pick vs. supertanks.
Tower change should help her mid game vs. high roam champions, will allow her to punish enemy mids better when they roam and she counters by ulting a wave and AAing their tower.
For support: The Thresh change is nice but realistically I think Lux is still a suboptimal support pick, and will remain that way at the very least until Spellthief openers become viable. I think she's viable as support in solo queue right now, but definitely not a competitive or high level pick.
All in all it looks like a pretty good patch for her IMO. Lux is sad that the dorans shield, Gragas and Kassadin changes didn't go through though. Maybe next patch!
I've looked at the guide, and as someone with no where near 600 ranked games with lux, and only lots and lots of thinking.
I must say I really do think each and every guide that has Athene's in it is wrong about the item.
Chalice is a good item, and Athenes is a good item. Don't get me wrong. Athene's is not a good item for Lux. To be honest, I don't even believe Chalice is that good of an item unless you are against an oppressive AP heavy mid lane (ok, so thats the meta right now, so yeah, rushing Chalice isn't that bad).
But that said, Lux is a Bursty Sniper mage with very little escapes once closed upon. MR late game does all of nothing for her barring 2/50 engagements. So why have one of you NB item slots hogged up with an item that gives inefficient AP, too much mana regen late game, and MR, without 1) selling it for late late game 2) investing in AP inefficiency for lots of gold.
Morellonomicon is a more gold efficient item for what you need to do, and coupled with Chalice gives more than enough MR for only 400 gold more
Morellos costs 2200 gold and gives 75 AP and 20% CDR + decent mana regen Athenes costs 2600 gold, gives 60AP and 20% CDR + insane mana regen + MR Morellos + Chalice = 3080 gold gives 75 AP, 20CDR insane Mana Regen and MR
And then you can sell Chalice late late game for Lich Bane, because lets face it, Lich Bane on her is awesome :D
^ That's not bad maths. Also, the healing debuff isn't a bad thing when trying to combo down an AD/Mundo/WW/ Any champ with sustain.
I don't think its necessary to rush CDR with Lux either. She wants burst in laning phase much more than any other champion, such that sacrificing burst for gold inefficient AP is a horrible decision. For 2440 gold you can get the same AP as Chalice, and for another 840 gold get a massive power boost. Not to mention that with a large rod and lvl 4/5 E you one shot ranged minions.
And no, if you google me, I don't have that many ranked lux games played, because I can't find a team that can protect me well enough to run it in my lowly Silver (and i'm mentioning that so you guys don't 'Discover' it and accuse of me trying to talk down to me about my level").
I was gold 4 last season, and I have played at least 300 games with Lux in various roles. I have had gold players ask me why I was still bronze after playing with them as Lux in normals, and I have made my share of epic plays with her too.
I also wrote a 7 page lux guide detailing most matchups with 5/6 different build paths that won me a Quinn Release Package, although the webpage was taken down before it was published T.T
been dying to say this ever since Froggen started building Athenes on her
At your Dorans Ring maths in the OP Boots 3 HP pots and 1 Blue pot isnt that bad a start either. You run out of mana at about the time that blue buff is up.
A lot of pros will go Morellonomicon instead of Athene's depending on the game too which supports the stance. I think Athene's is still a good item for Lux in a good number of situations but it's nowhere the end-all be-all that it's made out to be.
I really don't think Morellos by itself is enough regen, even at level 18.
Typically pro players who get Morellos on Lux will also get a Tear, or get Dorans Rings with it (which I think is bad, but that's another topic really). Morellos by itself is definitely not enough regen in the mid game when you need to use your spells both to farm and to harass. At full build you can run out of mana in a siege just by harassing if it goes on for a long time even if you have Athenes, and the difference in regen between Athenes and Morellos at that point is huge.
You have 19.8 base MP5 at level 18, which means you have 31.8 with Morellos and an average of 52.2 with Athenes (depending on missing mana) plus the mana regained on kills or assists.
I don't think the Morello+Tear build is bad if you look at it from a 6 item standpoint. The MR is less important outside laning, it's got more AP, similar regen, the Seraphs active is really good, etc. I think at 6 items it's stronger than the Athenes build.
But I think in the mid game Athenes is a lot better. 15 AP on Morello is only adding 9.45 damage to your E harass (32.2875 to your full combo), while the MR from Athenes changes your damage reduction vs. magic from 18% to 38% if we count typical enemy mid game mpen.
That means if you with Athenes goes up against the other guy with Morellos and trade in lane, Athenes is blocking more damage than the Morellos extra 15 AP caused as long as the guy does at least 50 damage to you, NOT counting enemy MR. So basically, Athenes will out trade Morellos in any mid game situation where you take damage.
Even with Morello + Chalice, Athenes would trade better if the enemy player does at least 200 damage, which is still probably less than they're doing with 1 spell.
Basically, in terms of laning power, 10 MR is more valuable than 15 AP.
You have to get away from thinking of Lux as a burst champion in lane. She's a burst champion in teamfights, but in lane she's a lot more like Nidalee. You hit them with E+auto 4 or 5 times and then go in to burst and kill, because if you just walk up and try to burst them at 100% HP you can't get a kill. You'll get them down to like 30%, they'll trade with you because you used all your spells, and now you have no ult and they have an ult and they'll use their potions and pressure you out of lane, or go roam and you can't stop it because you don't have ult.
vs. an AD lane Morellos looks a lot better, but in my experience when I rush Armguard vs. an AD lane I already become so mana starved that going for Morellos and Tear afterwards will just kill any possibility of me pressuring the lane, so I have to end up getting the chalice anyway. Being up against a team that does literally zero magic damage almost never happens. Even champions like Zed and Yasuo do a little bit of magic damage.
If you really want to do the late game Morellos thing and think that's sufficient sustain, rather than buy Morello+Chalice and selling Chalice later, you could buy Athenes and then sell Athenes for Morello after you hit 6 items.
That has a total cost of 2980 gold, while getting Morello+Chalice and selling Chalice costs 2464. 516 gold difference which isn't so huge a deal at 45 minutes or whatever, and you get a stronger mid game item for 480 less gold in the mid game where that much gold is a bigger deal.
I do kind of want to experiment vs. a 5 AD enemy team with a build where you go Armguard into Morello and double Dorans. Morello + 2 Dorans is similar regen to Athenes in the mid game, and it gives you a lot more laning power vs. an AD lane where Athenes MR doesn't matter much.
vs. an AP lane I think Athenes is stronger than Morello+2 Dorans, but vs. an AD it wouldn't be, and it would let you go for an early game build of 2 cloth armor + 2 dorans, which would be stronger than 2 cloth armor + 2 faerie charm (which is awkward as fuck, doesn't give nearly the regen that you need and if you don't get the 7 minute blue it kills your aggression completely)
I'm just really hesitant about having Morello Doran Doran Flask Armguard Boots in the mid game though. That means you're at 6 items before you even start your second big item. Do you finish Zhonyas first in that situation? I dunno.
On February 11 2014 15:55 Arachne wrote: I've looked at the guide, and as someone with no where near 600 ranked games with lux, and only lots and lots of thinking.
I must say I really do think each and every guide that has Athene's in it is wrong about the item.
Chalice is a good item, and Athenes is a good item. Don't get me wrong. Athene's is not a good item for Lux. To be honest, I don't even believe Chalice is that good of an item unless you are against an oppressive AP heavy mid lane (ok, so thats the meta right now, so yeah, rushing Chalice isn't that bad).
But that said, Lux is a Bursty Sniper mage with very little escapes once closed upon. MR late game does all of nothing for her barring 2/50 engagements. So why have one of you NB item slots hogged up with an item that gives inefficient AP, too much mana regen late game, and MR, without 1) selling it for late late game 2) investing in AP inefficiency for lots of gold.
Morellonomicon is a more gold efficient item for what you need to do, and coupled with Chalice gives more than enough MR for only 400 gold more
Morellos costs 2200 gold and gives 75 AP and 20% CDR + decent mana regen Athenes costs 2600 gold, gives 60AP and 20% CDR + insane mana regen + MR Morellos + Chalice = 3080 gold gives 75 AP, 20CDR insane Mana Regen and MR
And then you can sell Chalice late late game for Lich Bane, because lets face it, Lich Bane on her is awesome :D
^ That's not bad maths. Also, the healing debuff isn't a bad thing when trying to combo down an AD/Mundo/WW/ Any champ with sustain.
I don't think its necessary to rush CDR with Lux either. She wants burst in laning phase much more than any other champion, such that sacrificing burst for gold inefficient AP is a horrible decision. For 2440 gold you can get the same AP as Chalice, and for another 840 gold get a massive power boost. Not to mention that with a large rod and lvl 4/5 E you one shot ranged minions.
And no, if you google me, I don't have that many ranked lux games played, because I can't find a team that can protect me well enough to run it in my lowly Silver (and i'm mentioning that so you guys don't 'Discover' it and accuse of me trying to talk down to me about my level").
I was gold 4 last season, and I have played at least 300 games with Lux in various roles. I have had gold players ask me why I was still bronze after playing with them as Lux in normals, and I have made my share of epic plays with her too.
I also wrote a 7 page lux guide detailing most matchups with 5/6 different build paths that won me a Quinn Release Package, although the webpage was taken down before it was published T.T
been dying to say this ever since Froggen started building Athenes on her
At your Dorans Ring maths in the OP Boots 3 HP pots and 1 Blue pot isnt that bad a start either. You run out of mana at about the time that blue buff is up.
Athenes is a farming and counterpush item. You need the mana regen to hold your tower, if 3+ people start pushing it (it's a situation where if your oom, your tower dies.)
You get Athenes in order to safely farm up your burst items (dcap/void).
Your right that Athenes is not the best item for killing people, but the cdr/mana also gives you more opportunity to spam spells to try and wear them down.
Double dorans deathcap voidstaff is a fun build, but it just isn't as safe or consistent since if you use your mana to farm, you often don't have enough to go for a kill, you don't have mana to farm wraiths, you often run oom if 2+ people try to push on you.
The main problem with Lux is that even building pure burst she can really only burst down squishies, and Flash + tenacity/Barrier/Cleanse/1 MR item is enough to make them safe from you often.
What do you think about that build I suggested Dae?
vs. an all AD team, lets say like Zed Vi Yasuo AD Support
Open Cloth+5 pot
Go 2x Cloth Armor + 2x Dorans
Finish Armguard, then get Morellos
After Morello finish Zhonya.
With AP/level blues like you'd take in a vs. all AD runepage you've got about the same AP with Zhonya, Morello and 2 Dorans as you would with Athenes and Deathcap for 360 gold more, so you can hit about the same farm timing to 1 shot caster minions with E, but you're stronger vs. AD at all stages leading up to that with similar regen to Athenes.
After that you'd go either dcap or void staff, I'd have to math out which one does more damage to champions at that point, probably Void.
Then end game build would be Morello, Zhonya, Dcap, Void, Lich Bane. I like Lich Bane over DFG for that build because you've got more AP with the Morello and the AP runes, and with just Morello for sustain the Lich Bane mana suddenly becomes important.
On February 12 2014 02:11 Ketara wrote: What do you think about that build I suggested Dae?
vs. an all AD team, lets say like Zed Vi Yasuo AD Support
Open Cloth+5 pot
Go 2x Cloth Armor + 2x Dorans
Finish Armguard, then get Morellos
After Morello finish Zhonya.
With AP/level blues like you'd take in a vs. all AD runepage you've got about the same AP with Zhonya, Morello and 2 Dorans as you would with Athenes and Deathcap for 360 gold more, so you can hit about the same farm timing to 1 shot caster minions with E, but you're stronger vs. AD at all stages leading up to that with similar regen to Athenes.
After that you'd go either dcap or void staff, I'd have to math out which one does more damage to champions at that point, probably Void.
Then end game build would be Morello, Zhonya, Dcap, Void, Lich Bane. I like Lich Bane over DFG for that build because you've got more AP with the Morello and the AP runes, and with just Morello for sustain the Lich Bane mana suddenly becomes important.
When I did the math, void was almost always more champion damage/gold, at any point. It just sucks for farming.
And IDK about glass on Lux, I feel like if I use it I'm almost always dead when it comes out, except if they are very dive heavy team trying to get only me.
Usually positioning is enough to prevent people from getting to me, and those that it doesn't kinda already destroy Lux anyways so I don't pick Lux into them.
Its a decent item just for the stats, once youve got your cap/void/cdr, but the active is meh.
Yeah we'd be finishing Zhonya first just because with that build you'd be having item slot issues. Would let you have 6 items of Morello Doran Doran Boots Zhonya Void. Sell the first Dorans for deathcap and the second Dorans for Lich Bane.
Zhonyas has good stats but the active is not very useful on her, I agree.
Edit: Here's some level 18 sustain math.
With an Athenes and DFG build, if you're spamming all spells on cooldown you use 48.63 mana per second. You regen 10.44 mana per second and have 1150 mana. So you can continue spamming spells for 30.19 seconds.
With Morello and Lich Bane, you use 43.23 mana per second. You regen 6.36 mana per second and have 1400 mana. You can continue spamming spells for 37.97 seconds.
Realistically you're not spamming all four spells on cooldown all the time, so the difference is smaller, and Athenes gives you the extra regen on kills and assists. But I think that shows that Morello + Lich Bane is probably about equivalent to Athenes regen wise end game.
I'll give this build a try next time I see an enemy team that's all AD.
First off, it seems clear I play a more passive lux than you do (I don't mean this as an insult).
I generally don't run out of mana until 2nd blue's up. Its so engrained into my play style that it just happens naturally now.
That said:
I never said JUST morello's. I admitted that chalice is a good item to get early because of the MR in the harass heavy meta of ziggs/gragas/leblanc right now.
Also, I think delaying the power spike is a bit silly. Instead of building a codex 2nd item, why not a blasting wand into rabbadon? the pure burst is what she needs, not survivability. And by using burst, you need to cast less spells (not even going to get into that maths, because its dependent on so many things).
But just simply if 15ap adds 9 damage I think you said to just her E, how much more damage does another 80 ap add to all her spells? Chalice + Rabba cheaper than Athenes + Void,
I play a lot of ADC/SUP as well as Mid. And If I were to try explain it better it would be along the lines of an ADC
How I see an ADC An ADC (not vayne/kog) doesn't want attack speed early, they want damage, because they are trying to last hit and harass. they aren't particularly trying to melt faces. They just want to farm easier. + Show Spoiler +
ensuring that a creep dies to a spell/attack > sticking around for 2 attacks on 1 creep bot lane
Once the lane phase is over, they want attack speed, because now they need to start doing damage quicker.
And once the other team realizes that they have a scary ADC on the other team, the ADC wants armour pen (although they want this anyways) to get through the armour better.
For a mage its slightly different. But I am going to apply the same principle to how I think lux should be played.
Lux in lane Early game as lux you want damage, because you can abuse your spell ranges to farm safer, and extra damage saves mana, as it allows spells + passive to kill things easier, reduces the need for extra spells to hit the champ to threaten lethal, adds onto your shield (marginally), etc. Mid game you want magic pen to get thru everyones items/natural MR, for extra damage. Mid-late game people start building tanky and burst+MR pen isn't enough, and you start wanting to cycle through spells faster, to do more damage, and fall back into the "pokey" mage that lux can also be.
Athene's doesnt fit into this at all for me. By getting athenes instead of a bigger item with a larger power spike (Chalice + Large rod cheaper than Athenes for same AP and similar MR and same passive), you are hurting her transition into mid game. Yeah, sure she can poke faster and more often, but she's doing so at the cost of significantly reduced damage. If both champs get Athenes, she does even less, where a champion like ziggs, gragas, ahri LOVES chalice, and can combo you down with just that power spike.
I also disagree that lux needs to particulary rush armour vs an AD lane. I won't say she doesn't want to at stages, but I don't think she needs to 100% rush it over maybe taking an extra point in shield early/earlier.
If you're not running out of mana before the first blue buff is up, you're not using your spells enough.
Be a man when you play little girls, attack the other guy. AP doesn't give you any damage and regen doesn't give you any sustain if you aren't casting your spells.
But no mana =/= not full mana (=regen useless)... Sure, you might do less harass, but if it isn't meaningful harass in the first place, might as well conserve mana. Guess the conclusion is, build depends on circumstances. heh.
I think Lux support is best in the late game where you can get enough items to start playing her like a second AP carry, and she needs gold to get there, so starting without a gold item is not so good.
Flask gives you some gold, but if we assume it's about as much as 3 potions per back, that's 105 gold per back. Ancient Coin gives about 4.2 GP10 and more than doubles when you upgrade it, so eventually as long as you are in lane longer than 90 seconds it would be more efficient than a flask.
A lot of the cost efficiency of Dorans Ring comes from CSing, so if you're not CSing it's not as worth it.
The proposed change on Spellthief's Edge is potentially SO good for support Lux, much better than for any other champion (potentially).
This is because unlike other champions, her passive is coded as an additional spell effect, rather than an on hit autoattack effect.
Meaning, it is entirely possible that, when you E and then auto a guy, you would get all 3 Tribute procs on the same person. 12 gold and 30 damage, when you currently get 4 gold and 6 damage for the same cost. The cooldown on Tribute would also line up perfectly with the cooldowns on Lux's spells.
This would change her level 1 Q+auto damage from 140.3 to 163.3, kind of a big deal.
Of course it's also possible that it wouldn't work like that and your passive wouldn't give an additional Tribute proc. It would still be a big buff to the Spellthief items regardless, but at least potentially this is a bigger buff to Lux than it is to other champions.
spellthief looks best, steel legion has the best effects :3 many ppl rather say E is not easy to see instead of Q..but i dont have any problems playing against steel legion lux tbh.
So, I had planned on making a video with a few mechanical Lux tricks on it and adding it to the guide, but after working on it for a few hours over the weekend I decided that A - Trying to record audio on a video as a person with a stutter is a pain in the ass (have to redo the audio for each clip 20-30 times before it doesn't sound bad), and B - Lux really isn't so mechanically complicated that I can't explain her tricks with just text and a few screenshots.
So instead of a video I just added another text section. It's up in the OP, but I'll also post it here. Big thanks to Atrioc for helping me with the video even though I ended up deciding not to finish it.
This section shows a few more specific, technical tricks that should help out newer players, or ones who aren't so familiar with Lux's spells. Lux isn't a very mechanically complicated champion like Riven or Lee Sin, but she does have a couple bright decisions in her repertoire.
Flashing into Prismatic Barrier The standard trick with Lux's shield is to throw it in the direction you're running away, so the second shield will hit you faster as you run into it. This is pretty basic stuff, but in an emergency you can also flash into or past the shield particle, which will give you the second shield immediately. This is a very rarely used trick but every once in a while it can save you from the last tick of an Ignite or an autoattack that you know will kill but hasn't quite hit you yet.
Prismatic Barrier and Zhonyas Your shield works a little bit strangely with Zhonyas Hourglass. If another character uses Zhonya and you try to shield them while they're in stasis, it doesn't work. However, when the shield particle comes back to you it DOES give you the shield even if you're in the middle of stasis. Stasis lasts 2.5 seconds which is the same time it takes the shield to get back to you if you're standing still.
What this means is if you get caught in a fight, you can shield yourself, wait till the enemy team breaks your first shield, and then use Zhonyas. Your second shield will hit you and activate while you're still in stasis and you'll have it the moment you come out.
Using Lucent Singularity for Vision Your E will see into any bush that it just barely touches. Knowing this, there are a few spots on the map where you can use it to see into two bushes at the same time, click the spoilers for the possible positions. There are also many spots in the jungle where throwing an E on top of a jungle wall will see things on both sides of the wall. + Show Spoiler [Dragon/Baron] +
Lucent Singularity levelup "exploit" One of the more mechanical tricks you can do with Lux, when levelling up in the early game, you should try to level Lucent Singularity after casting it but before detonating it. Throw out the E, press Ctrl+E immediately to level the ability while the orb is traveling, and then detonate it when it lands.
What this does is give that particular instance of the spell the mana cost of the lower rank but the damage of the higher rank. You can only do this trick once each time you level the skill and it only saves 15 mana, so it's not going to win you any games, but it's not hard to do with a bit of practice and it gives you a small advantage in the early lane.
1-2 Passive Combo Your standard combo is to throw out a Q and wait to see if it hits. If it does, cast E then R, and hit E again to detonate it right as the R channel finishes. Remember that you do NOT need to cast E and R before the snare hits, the snare will last long enough for you to wait and see if it's going to hit. If you can, autoattack them right after for a second passive proc.
If they use Zhonyas to dodge your ult, you can leave the Singularity on the ground and hit them with it when they come out of stasis.
3 Passive Combo Doing a 3 passive combo is more difficult, and generally requires you to be in more or less melee range with the opponent, but it can be good to do in duels with bruisers or when people facecheck you in a bush.
Snare the person with Q and then immediately cast R. After the R channel finishes throw an E under them and autoattack them. Right after the first autoattack hits detonate the E, the snare will usually end while your second autoattack is in the air, but at that point they can't stop it.
Being very close to them is important for doing a 3 passive combo correctly, because if they have tenacity and your autoattack has too long a travel time the snare will end in time for them to flash out of your E. You cast E after R in this combo so that if they do have a lot of CC reduction and try to flash away too early you can still follow them with the E.
Other Final Spark Interactions One of the most important things to know about Final Spark is that during the half second charge time, you can still use Barrier and Ignite. You'll get in many situations during your games where casting Barrier during the ult channel will buy you enough time to finish the channel and kill the other guy.
Final Spark is also uninterruptable by enemy CC, so in some cases you can time using it just as an enemy stun is about to land on you as a way of partially ignoring the stun.
Common Ult Spots Finally, I've put some common ult spots in the spoilers below. These spots let you hit buff camps and dragon/baron without being seen by common wards. + Show Spoiler [In Lane] +
Many players all the way up to challenger have the bad habit of moving here between their tower and wall when backing away. This spot is a free hit with all of your spells.
If they don't pull the buff out this spot will hit it without you being seen by common wards. If they do pull the buff out to the bush you have to move farther to the right and will be seen by a ward.
Both of these spots won't be seen by common wards, but it's a little easier to hit both the objective and the enemy team from the first spot than it is from the second.
So, an update for patch 4.3 with my patch notes thoughts re: Lux.
Gragas, Kassadin, Khazix and Yasuo nerfs will all be good for mid Lux. I think the Kassadin nerfs are tiny and won't change a thing, but I'm hoping I'm wrong.
Dorans Shield nerfs will also help her early laning against lots of mids.
Tear buff will be good if you decide to buy a Tear. If you're stacking it as fast as possible it makes it max out 2 minutes earlier. Not sure whether or not that's enough to change anything, but I'll test it and see what I think.
For support, the support changes are big and it's going to take some time to figure them out. Support Lux potentially got a LOT better with the Spellthief changes, but whether or not it's better enough to make support Lux a competitive thing and not an unconventional mostly bad pick, we'll have to see. I'm going to do 20-30 support Lux games in normals and see if I need to completely change the build orders in the guide.
Text is almost always preferable to video, FYI. I fucking hate video guides with a passion. If you had made that post as a video I wouldn't have watched it, but that post is awesome.
Gonna have to agree with the text > video part usually. I read fairly quickly, and would prefer not to sit through a 10 minute video when I can read what the video said in a small fraction of time instead.
Exception would be for stuff that can only be seen in motion.
I still don't think Tear will be a good option. No 20% CDR, no MR (with Athenes running AP/lvl blues is pretty nice imo, would you run AP/lvl blues with Tear?), and Lux has high cooldowns and high mana costs which makes tear stacking irritating. The 3% mana AP passive yields what, 65 AP with a full Seraph's at level 18?
I guess you can bait people really hard with Barrier + Seraphs or something
Aren't you really low on mana with a build like that? I feel you could swap in Athene's for Banner of Command, or swap in Mikhael's if you are going for more utility.
Def. not Athenes. Frost Queens Claim gives 10 MP5 and I'm running MP5 quints, so getting Athenes after that would be similar to Athenes+Morello in an AP build which is no bueno.
The mana issue in lane feels pretty excrutiating, post laning it doesn't seem so bad. You're not farming as support and maxing E last so your mana issues aren't as big a deal outside laning.
I got to full build in my second game, had 2nd most gold on the team and 3rd most damage dealt, did more damage than our Ahri mid (kinda sad?). It felt pretty strong once it got going but initial lane still felt suspect.
I got right around 2000 gold from Spellthief, 40 minute game. Rounds out to 8.3 GP10. Got almost twice as much gold from it as the other support got from Coin.
Yeah I can imagine early game mana is pretty tight especially since they nerfed the mana regen on spell thief and frostfang, but I guess MP5 quints help. Banner of Command just doesn't seem that useful, the stats are great but the passive and active are meh. I'm curious what the range of the passive aura on it is like, can't seem to find it on the wiki. I still feel like another item could be swapped in for it (DFG? Deathcap?).
The main aspect of the Spellthief line is that you have to be quite active against the opponent directly and this leaves you very vulnerable. Even though it nets a lot more gold as the game progresses, the team-wide utility of Talisman is unmatched (and so is Mikael) in most cases. The only way you're going to deal with an enemy Talisman is to have a team-wide speed boost of your team (Karma, Sivir, etc) if you're going to bother with a Spellthief as a support Lux. The stats the Spellthief line provides is heavily skewed on the damage side and the active on Frost Queen's is poor as well because while it gives some "utility", it deals a pitiful 50 damage and you basically traded a team-wide speed boost for your team for that 50 shit-damage slow (to top it off both are 60 second cooldowns). You traded 20% Cooldown Reduction for 50 AP and that makes NO sense.
A reasonable cheap damage item from a support Lux is Mejai's Soulstealer. I personally believe a support Lux buying high-end items for damage is sub-par and overall generates a huge loss in overall flexibility when it comes to map movement, vision, and teamfight control. If a teamfight was lost because a support Lux didn't have the damage to finish someone off then it's most likely your allies didn't play the fight well.
Mana regen quints are not necessary at all. If anything go sneak in a few mana regen glyphs (3-5) instead of quints. Quintessence slots for supports are super important to ensure a safe laning phase, not a dangerous (aggressive) one.
I don't like Mejai's, I think Mejai's is a troll item.
It's good when you're ahead, and when you're ahead other items are also good because you're ahead. And if you think you're ahead but you're really behind, it's suddenly very VERY bad.
The Frost Queen active (although it's more like 100 damage now) is blatantly not as good as the Talisman active, this is v. true.
Also the items only have a 10% CDR difference now, which isn't so big a deal, considering how many other ways to get CDR there are as support.
Going mana regen glyphs instead of quints is not efficient. 8 mana regen glyphs would be 2.48 regen, the same as 2 mana regen quints. You'd lose 10.72 MR. 2 MR quints would give 8 MR, so it's just a bad decision.
The ultimate problem is if you're going to be grabbing like Talisman Mikael Locket, there are other supports who will have a bigger game impact with that itemization than Lux will. So if Lux support is to be viable, AP items need to be viable.
I'm having serious second thoughts on Banner of Command. Active is good when you get a good opportunity to use it, but using it is so awkward. Having to walk away from potential teamfights to use it is pretty dumbo. May just go with Morello because it's cheaper. But if I'm going with Morello, may not want regen quints at all. HMM.
As I'm testing it what I'm finding is that winning the lane is super important when you go spellthief. If you're winning the lane and in a position to keep throwing constant E's out as harassment you get a tremendous amount of gold, while if you lose it you not only don't have any sustain in your items but also don't get near as much gold.
So I feel like the 21 offense allows me to win the lane better which allows me to get more gold. That's my logic anyway. I did the first 5 games this morning going 9/0/21 and then changed to 21/0/9 and it felt a LOT better.
Hybrid penetration is rather poor for Lux because her overall laning ability is completely hinged on having spells ready, which means you can't actually use auto attacks to have a trade favor you. If you really want to be aggressive with hybrid pen without ANY wards in your starting items, you're going to get stomped. Even armor reds can be useful given that Lux's base damage is high enough to allow it (also why a Champion like Zyra can use it well).
Regardless, 10% CDR differential is still quite big. Frost Queen's Claim + Morellonomicon is a combined 4200(!!!) gold where Talisman + Mikael is a measly 3600 gold for the same total Cooldown Reduction. There are ZERO advantages of Frost Queen + Morellonomicon over Talisman + Mikael. That's too much to sacrifice. Two godly actives vs one shitty active and 100 AP (oh and a cutesy little Grieving Wounds debuff on someone)? Yeah. Sure.
As I've said before, try fitting in a few mana regen glyphs to round up your mana regen. It dosen't matter how "inefficient" those glyphs are if 12 MR isn't going to be super important for your laning ability. Think about this: How different would a laning situation be against an AD + Support botlane if i traded 4-5 MR for that extra bit of mana regen? If you're caught you're fucked because there's nothing you can do about it, especially when you neglect ANY defensive mastery.
Lux doesn't NEED to be different from other supports to be effective. Of course, going Talisman + Mikael isn't as great as going Talisman + Mikael on other standard support Champions. However, there's no doubt that these two items are highly valuable on ANY Champion that can survive the laning phase as a support.
You only think about how to propel yourself into a higher role than what you originally picked for. You picked support Lux so you better fucking play support Lux. Yes, there can be a bind lategame that can win you the game. Yes, with high enough AP support Lux can contribute to teamfights with that extra burst. BUT you sacrifice your team's necessities in order to make yourself a semi-carry Lux from a 5th position (support) Lux. Mejai's doesn't hurt your team, it hurts YOU. If you play bad, you get the consequences for being bad. If you buy high-end AP items and neglect your entire team, your TEAM is going to suffer for your item choices. Even if you play your fucking mind out, when the enemy support has these necessities and your team doesn't, good fucking luck trying to win if they are semi-not-terrible at using Talisman + Mikael.
Only reason there are spurts of success with this "support" Lux you advocate is because you go against shit players who play shitty in lane and then can't play out mid game well enough to take advantage of your poor item choices.
#1 - Talisman and Mikael is 20% CDR, Frost Queen's Claim and Morellonomicon is 30%.
#2 - There is actually quite a lot of defense in the first 9 points of utility. I went with 21/0/9 because I did the math and found it gave more defense than 21/6/3 (I decided that the 3 mana regen was absolutely mandatory.)
#3 - I never said support Lux was a good pick, or really advocated for it at all. I'm not sure why you're coming at me with such venom. I'm just testing the new item.
Oops on the CDR values. I originally meant Talisman + Locket (which is 4550 total gold) that still has the defensive capabilities (and cooldown values) to assist the team better. Lul
I personally think if you really really want the mana regen you should sacrifice your offensive capability rather than going ahead with the 21 offense. There is simply no real benefit of going all the way into Havoc, which you're essentially dumping 3-4 extra mediocre points, which can be fit into more defensive masteries. Strength of Spirit is a poor skill point (just dump that on Summoner Cooldown). Biscuits are fine. There is no conceivable way a support can play against decent enough players without at least 9 points to get Veteran's Scars + Juggernaut. Something like 0-15-15 can work well.
New item sux. it's like the only person that can actually use it without getting punished heavily is Karma. so.... gl
I apologize for toxic. However, this sentence really got me angry when evaluating items.
"I got to full build in my second game, had 2nd most gold on the team and 3rd most damage dealt, did more damage than our Ahri mid (kinda sad?). It felt pretty strong once it got going but initial lane still felt suspect."
What was the impact of Frost Queen that might have gotten you a lead somewhere? When did NOT buying Talisman hurt you? When did Frost Queen active help you? Would Talisman active have been better (they ARE the same cooldown)? How well does Frost Queen transition me into such and such items? These are the critical questions are need answering when you're going to test an item. An overall evaluation after game thinking "oh yeahhh 2nd most gold on team Frost Queen too good mannnn" does not cut it.
I think in terms of the finished item, Talisman is blatantly better than Frost Queen.
As far as the raw stats go they're fairly similar. HP regen and gold I think is fairly unimportant later in the game, so we're talking 10 MP5 and 20% CDR vs. 10 MP5, 10% CDR, 40 AP and some extra damage with the Tribute procs. The reason why they're similar is because in both cases you're going to be maxing out your CDR with your other items in a similar amount of gold.
The issue is that the active on Talisman is just better. The Frost Queen active is a lot better in this patch than it was in the previous patch (a LOT better), but I think it still needs to be better to compete with the Talisman active.
What the Frost Queen line gives you is a stronger laning phase. I've done about 50 Lux support games at this point, about 40 before I made the guide and another 10 today post patch. I did about half of the first set of games with the old spellthief and about half with the old Talisman.
What I've found on support Lux is that, if you can make it to late game and get levels and items, she becomes a really good support. Her shield and peeling capability becomes just as strong as it is if you played her mid.
The problem with support Lux is that her laning phase is atrocious. She does not do any damage. Her shield isn't as good as having a heal like Sona or Nami, her snare is harder to land in a duo lane than Zyra's because she can't walk up to the enemy duo aggressively to snare like she can in a 1v1 and she can't snare through minions like Zyra can. She has some good kill threat at 6 but only if she lands a snare AND your ADC can follow up.
Even before this patch Spellthief was better for her laning than Coin. The reason why is because Lux can actually very easily do damage in lane without taking damage just by throwing E out a lot. But you can't max E because you aren't rushing Athenes so you don't have the regen to support that, and rank 1 E doesn't do much damage past level 4 or so. So having an item that increases her damage makes her laning better than an item that increases her HP regen by the same amount.
The new Spellthief increases her damage by a LOT more than the old Spellthief, and makes her laning a LOT better, while simultaneously giving a LOT more gold than it did before. And now that Frost Queen has been buffed considerably and Talisman has been nerfed slightly, it's worth looking at going the Spellthief line just to not automatically lose laning phase.
Realistically, you could go Frost Queen + Locket + Mikhael, I'll test that too. I just wanted to test AP items first.
Strength of Spirit is a completely overpowered skill point by the way. It is roughly equal point for point to Perserverence after its first nerf and before the second, even if you don't get any mana items. If you could put 3 points in Strength of Spirit it would need to be nerfed hard.
The numbers: For Lux Strength of Spirit gives 1HP/5 at level 1, and 3.83 HP/5 at level 18.
1 point in the current Perserverence gives her a mean of 0.7 HP/5 at level 1, and 2.9 HP/5 at level 18.
PS: The reason why the mana regen is mandatory is because, if you're going spellthief, you need to use mana to get gold. You can't afford to be holding your spells back in lane, you must make an attempt to hit a champion with a spell every minion wave.
Lux's mana costs even with just rank 1 E mean it's difficult for her to do this throughout an extended laning phase without going oom and making her duo vulnerable, so the mana regen masteries are mandatory if you're going spellthief. If you're going coin, they're still pretty good but not necessarily mandatory.
PPPS: I'm pretty much using this thread for my personal brainstorming at this point.
Another possibility would be to open Spellthief and get Frostfang in order to win laning, and then sell Frostfang for Talisman. This would ultimately cost 519 extra gold.
Frostfang gives 14 GP10 if used to maximum efficiency, and the Coin line gives 8.3 GP10. So you'd need to hold the item for about 15 minutes to make the added cost of this endeavor actually a net zero. You probably do hold it for about 10 minutes laning, so the cost difference is likely very small.
This actually seems like a really good idea to me.
have you considered going at least 13 utility for the +35 starting gold (14 utility for the +1 gold per kill by ally)? You can then start something like spellthief + ward + 2 pots
Runing hybrid pen, armor blues/yellows, ap or ms quints.
If I were greedy I would probably just go standard ap 21/0/9 with the lategame ap masteries, running magic pen/armor/ap/level and ap quints, without all the ad in offense.
General idea is to abuse higher ms and decent attack animation to get aa harass in on their adc when they go for last hits, or to auto the other support out of late. Shield makes for very effecient trades, and if you get ahead catching with a q forces a fight.
Its reliant on dodging pretty much every hard engage on you though.
I'm not too thrilled on double edged sword in the duo lane.
I like it in the solo lane, but in a 2v2 you're adding 1.5% damage to one champ, but taking 1.5% more from two champs.
ATM I'm thinking 21/0/9 is a good page if you're running against a more passive duo lane, but against more common aggressive lanes I'm looking at 9/7/14 or 12/9/9.
On March 01 2014 01:05 Ketara wrote: I'm not too thrilled on double edged sword in the duo lane.
I like it in the solo lane, but in a 2v2 you're adding 1.5% damage to one champ, but taking 1.5% more from two champs.
ATM I'm thinking 21/0/9 is a good page if you're running against a more passive duo lane, but against more common aggressive lanes I'm looking at 9/7/14 or 12/9/9.
So, after some more testing and spending the morning doing some math on item builds, I've updated the guide. I don't know that support Lux is what I'd call competitive now, and support Zyra still probably does all the same stuff better. But it's certainly a lot better in this patch than it was last patch. Let me know what you guys think. OP is updated, but I'll also put it here.
As a disclaimer, I don't think Support Lux is very good. I've been part of many a Lux support discussion, and the conclusion is always the same, that everything Support Lux does Support Zyra does better. This section of the guide is not meant to suggest that Lux is some secret OP support, but more guidelines on how to play her as support if you find yourself in that situation. If you hate or don't own Zyra, Support Lux is similar. If you first picked a solo lane Lux and have to do some rearranging because some jerk has to play mid Riven, stay positive. We can do this.
If you don't want to make a Lux Support rune page, your Standard solo lane Lux page will work fine. If you have extra pages to spare, I've found these two rune setups to be best.
Offensive: This is your standard page. 9 Hybrid Penetration 9 Flat Armor 9 Flat MR 3 Flat AP
Defensive: Use this page against enemy all in kill lanes like a Leona or a double Bruiser lane. 9 Flat Armor 9 Flat Armor 9 Flat MR 3 Flat AP
If you don't have Hybrid Penetration runes, Magic Penetration is fine for support Lux.
16/0/14 is the most offense oriented you want to go as Support Lux. This is your strongest late game mastery page and can be used against more passive enemy duos like a Soraka or Janna lane.
Ignite or Exhaust is more preference based. Ignite is more aggressive and early game focused, Exhaust more defensive and late game focused.
Taking 4 potions will give you more aggressive harassment against the enemy lane, but will make you more vulnerable to ganks. If you're not sure which option is best, I think 2 potions and a ward is a safer, more standard option.
As Support your skill maxing order is R>W>Q>E, since you get the most mileage per skill point from your shield. It's important to note that with this skill order your E will do almost no damage after early laning, and will be used mostly for vision, the slow field, and farming gold from Tribute procs.
You have two options for what skills to get your first 3 levels.
Q>E>W is your ideal, as it allows you to use E harass at level 2 to start farming gold with your Spellthief's Edge.
Q>W>E is a more defensive opener, giving you good staying power if you get pushed into a passive position at level 1.
While solo lane Lux builds more or less the same items in every game, as Support it's your job to make up for whatever the team doesn't buy. You have a lot of different item options and item paths here.
Cost: 1590 Gold
These items are all based around giving you a strong laning phase. You need to continue buying potions and wards until you complete Sightstone and begin roaming.
Cost: 3090 Gold
This is your core item build. Swap your yellow trinket to a red one after buying Sightstone.
At this point you have to decide whether or not to continue building AP, or transition into utility items for the late game.
This route can be good if you're snowballing in lane, or if your team already has a lot of defense and hard engage, but lacks damage. It can also be good in poke/siege heavy comps that don't need Talismans disengage.
Cost: 13590 Gold
Since you aren't farming, you want to build Void Staff before Deathcap with this setup.
With this build you can eventually sell Frost Queens Claim for another big AP item like Zhonya's Hourglass (defensive) or Deathfire Grasp (offensive).
Note that while the gold requirements of this build are higher than the Utility based build below, you will also have more gold generation with Frost Queens Claim than you will with Talisman, making the total costs very similar.
If your team has a lot of damage already and needs help with defense or engage/disengage, you can sell your Frostfang for a Talisman of Ascension (requires 1474 gold) and switch to a more utility oriented setup.
Cost: 12464 Gold
Alternatively, your Twin Shadows can be exchanged here for a Liandry's Torment or Zhonyas Hourglass if you want a single big offensive item.
On rare occasions you have some other options as support Lux.
Banner of Command can be alright in some games to help your team split push, or to help counterpush against a split pushing team. It also gives a good damage boost to a mid Zyra or Heimerdinger.
If you need more resistances vs. a mostly AD or AP team you can change your boots.
Lux's mana costs blow as a support. Probably the only thing holding her back, as she does have good utility in lane.
But she suffers from the "if one of these meta supports hard initiates on you you die" syndrome similarly to other squishy scrubs these days like Sona.
You know it's interesting. I think Morgana support is currently very similar to Lux support, except Morg is good against the champs Lux is bad against and bad against the champs Lux is good against.
On March 05 2014 02:39 Ketara wrote: You know it's interesting. I think Morgana support is currently very similar to Lux support, except Morg is good against the champs Lux is bad against and bad against the champs Lux is good against.
Exactly, all those 'meta supports' get fucked by spell shield
Edit black shield
I can't remember who's stream it was but they were raging about support morg a couple months ago
They have very similar kits except for their ults, but Black Shield stopping CC is what I think really differentiates them in what they are good and bad against matchup-wise.
I need help farming with Lux pre-6. Sadly i stopped playing her seriously after my first string of ranked games as mid back in s2 when i was pretty new to LoL in general. Everytime i've thought about adding her to my top 3 mids i always shy away from her due to how terrible i am at CSing with her in general. I believe im not using my E properly early mostly because for whatever reason i don't feel safe potentially trading with the other mid as her.
Once i get going i know how to play her and tend to wreck face pretty hard and can snowball hard but if i don't get any sort of lead pre-6 (HP/CS/summoner/kill) i pretty much end up behind in CS until later.
Send me a friend invite (IGN: Ketarah) and let me know when you're playing her and I'll spectate and see if I can give any early game tips.
In general I think most Lux's pre-6 are just not playing manly enough. Walk up and beat the other guys face in, in 3 out of 4 lanes you should be winning all of the trades pre 6.
You can just zone so hard with singularities cs'ing shouldn't be much of a problem. The range on that thing is huge and you can just leave it until it times out or they step on it. If they get lit up just proc em so they respect you. Just don't double tap it all the time. I used to play some lux support and it was definitely the other adc who had problems cs'ing.
So, some guesswork for how Lux is going to do in this patch:
Kassadin rework is hooray! We can only hope that he's less of a douche and easier to bully early game now. I have a sneaky feeling that he's actually going to be stronger now and will need some nerfbattage, but hopefully I'm wrongo.
Diana, Kog, Fizz, Ezreal and TF will all get stronger in the early game I think. Fizz might be tough to deal with again.
But the best change of this patch is we don't have to argue about Lich Bane anymore because it's crappy now, hoooooraaaaaaay!
I'm going to call this the EVERYBODY GOT NERFED patch, which is always nice for Lux.
The following champions got small nerfs: Heimer Khazix Lee Sin Leona Lulu Wukong Ziggs
Lux likes all of these things.
The Gragas rework I think will probably make him easier to deal with mid, if I had to guess. Lux likes this too.
The rune changes are also good for her because she gains level 1 survivability, which she needs desperately.
The big thing here is the new AP items. I actually really like Forbidden Idol, and I'm interested in Dae's thoughts on it.
For mid, it looks like it will make going Morellonomicon much easier vs. an AD.
For support, it makes it easier to start Frostfang and switch to Talisman later. Since you will either go Frost Queen + Morellonomicon or Talisman + Mikael, you can now build Frostfang + Forbidden Idol before you make the decision of which path you want to take, since Forbidden Idol builds into both Morellonomicon and Talisman.
Aether Wisp doesn't excite me as much. I'm kind of bummed that Twin Shadows lost its MR, as well.
I have heavily updated the itemization sections for both mid and support, as well as the rune sections. I've added a second Morellonomicon build path for mid going against AD teams, which I luckily was able to test this morning, I think it flows fairly well.
Tactical decision, Summoner. This is the way Lux is typically played, as a solo lane, safe farming, endlessly harassing, one shotting death laser machine. Solo lane Lux is typically played in the mid lane, since she is somewhat blue buff dependant, lacks the escape tools necessary for top lane, and mid lane allows her a lot of objective control with her long range ultimate. I have played Lux top lane before in emergency situations, but it is simply not as good as playing her mid.
Anti AD: You can use this if both the enemy mid and jungle are AD champions. Use a Morellonomicon build order over Athenes with this rune setup. 7 Hybrid Penetration, 2 Magic Penetration 9 Flat Armor 9 Mana Regen per level 3 Flat AP
Anti AP: You can use this if both the enemy mid and jungle are AP champions. 7 Hybrid Penetration, 2 Magic Penetration 9 HP per level OR 9 Armor per level 9 Flat MR 3 Flat AP
Delayed MR: This is specifically for fighting AP champions that cannot pressure you before level 6, but become threats afterwards. Used vs. champions like Kassadin, Akali and Diana. 7 Hybrid Penetration, 2 Magic Penetration 9 Flat Armor 9 MR per level 3 Flat AP
7 Hybrid Pen marks gives you 6 Armor Penetration, which is exactly how much armor enemy melee minions will have when you get your first blue buff at 7 minutes. After 7 minutes you will start clearing waves with spells over autoattacks, and extra armor penetration stops being as useful.
Do note that if you don't have hybrid pen runes, magic pen is just fine.
24/0/6 is the standard page, which maximizes offense while taking necessary regen in Utility. If you want more movespeed for dodging skillshots in lane you can drop points in Archmage or Blade/Spell weaving for Fleet of Foot.
21/9/0 gives you nearly the same offensive power, but some added defense against laners who have a lot of kill potential early game. Used against champions like Fizz, Syndra, Annie, Wukong etc. In offense take Spell and Blade Weaving for early game harassment, or 2 points in Archmage for late game damage.
I feel like a lot of people overvalue Unyielding and Block on ranged champions, so I'd like to clear this up in regards to Lux. To start with, Lux begins the game with 12 armor, 25 with armor runes. At level 1 a standard enemy mid lane AD champion has lets say 70 AD. With 1 rank in Block, Lux will take 55.2 damage from their autoattacks instead of 56.
Recovery heals 1 HP per 5 seconds, so in order for Block to beat Recovery, you have to take at least 1.25 autoattacks every 5 seconds. This is not common in mid lane, so Recovery is likely better than Block here. Block has negative multiplicative synergy with armor and enemy AD, so as the game goes on, Recovery becomes more and more useful.
One rank in Enchanted Armor will increase Lux's rank 1 armor by 0.325, which will reduce a 70 AD attack from 56 to 55.8. This is worse than Block by 0.6 damage. However, Enchanted Armor also reduces minion damage, by 0.05 for caster minions and 0.03 for melee minions at the start of the game. Enchanted Armor also reduces damage from champion abilities. So ultimately we can say that the damage difference per auto is more like 0.5. Like with Recovery, Block gets less valuable the longer the game goes on, while Enchanted Armor gets more valuable, so this 0.5 difference is only at the start of the game, and then begins to decrease.
Note also that on your very first back, Lux will buy either 2 cloth armors or a null magic mantle depending on the lane. This gives Lux either 0.75 armor or 0.5 MR per point in Enchanted Armor, and reduces this gap even further.
So, to sum things up, Recovery is better than Block, and in the very early game the difference in damage between Block and Enchanted Armor is only about 0.5, depending on enemy AD. After your first back, Enchanted Armor becomes better and continues to scale better throughout the game. Lux is already a very safe champion and hard to kill early in the game, so I see no reason to take Block on her past the one point requirement to reach rank 9 Defense.
You want Flash and either Barrier or Teleport. Barrier is my standard option. I like to take Teleport vs. Twisted Fate, as well as champions like Cho'Gath and Morgana, lanes where Lux typically cannot get kills 1v1 and must get ahead by outroaming her counterpart.
As for items, you want to start with lots of potions, but against AD Assassins like Talon opening with a Cloth Armor helps you stay alive in the early lane.
I think Barrier has more synergy with her kit. It can give Lux the time needed in an emergency to complete her spell rotation (which will outdamage Ignite), and allows for a lot of baiting opportunities with Q and W. Ignite on the other hand often has too short a range for Lux to pair it with her long range spell rotation.
That said, I do sometimes take Ignite if I feel like my team needs one vs. a high value Ignite target like Mundo.
Basically, because Lux's passive has no AP ratio and is a large part of her early game damage, she does damage in lane from having lots of regen, not from having AP. After 600 ranked Lux games and watching other Lux players I am completely convinced Flask is better than Dorans Ring. But if you don't believe me, here's some math on the subject:
Typically as Lux you go back to base around the 5 minute mark. This is around when you run out of mana and also around when you get enough money for your chalice, if you're doing well. So you're in lane CSing for about 3 minutes, and fight about 6 minion waves. Typically sometime between the second and third cannon minion is when you base.
A Dorans Ring in that time period, if you get all 38 CS (very difficult), will regen you 260 mana, while a flask and a mana potion will regen you 308 mana. This is about enough mana to cast an extra 1/2 of an E in lane. This half an E at level 6 will do about 123 damage. Now, a Dorans Ring adds about 9 damage to each of your spells, meaning you have to land 14 spells in that 3 minute period for the added AP on Dorans Ring to outdamage the extra sustain from the flask. Depending on what spells you use at what levels, this costs around 1000 mana.
Furthermore, a flasks HP regen gives you 336 more HP than a dorans ring does. This is equivalent to two shields in lane, increasing the mana requirement from 1000 to 1120. You want to save enough mana to cast your ult at level 6, so let's assume in order to get Dorans Ring to beat Flask, you need to use 1220 mana in lane in a 3 minute period.
Your 260 regenned mana and your base mana pool gives you 810 mana. Your innate regen with utility masteries gives you 324, and your Feast mastery gives you another 38. This totals 1172.
So, ultimately, even if you get every CS and miss absolutely no spells, Dorans Ring doesn't outdamage Flask in lane. Realistically you don't hit every skill (realistically if you landed 14 spells in lane you would kill them either way) and you don't get every CS, and Flask is just straight up better.
Your level order as solo lane Lux will always be R>E>Q>W, but your first 3 levels what order you get your skills in is dependant on the individual game.
Going E>Q>W is your ideal, as this gives you the most offensive pressure early in the game.
Q>E>W is fine if your team is doing a level 1 invade, or if your team is invaded.
In some high pressure matchups I will open Q>W>E. This is good when laning against champions such as Fizz, Wukong, Xin Zhao, Fiora and Riven, who are likely going to try to kill you at level 2.
First of all, you won't be using E to farm at level 3, so you're only putting a point in it at this stage for harassment on enemy champions. The second level in E increases the mana cost from 60 to 75. If we count Lux's passive into the damage calculation, the damage at level 3 will go from 114 to 159, counting typical level 3 AP. This increases the damage per mana spent from 1.9 to 2.1. On the other hand, W at level 1 shields for 88.5 twice at a 60 mana cost. Rank 1 E and Rank 1 W together have a mana efficiency of 1.7 if you only use one shield, and 2.425 if you use both.
Basically, getting W instead of E at 3 makes you safer to ganks, lets you win trades harder AND is more mana efficient if you are using your shield to trade aggressively. There's no reason to ever get rank 2 E at level 3.
The midseason 4.5 patch has opened up a couple different possible build paths for our light mage. The standard build path is very versatile, and is basically the same as Lux has been building since season 2.
The alternate build path is specifically designed for playing against teams that have little to no AP damage. I would not use this build path unless at least both the enemy mid and jungle are AD champions, because it gives you no MR at all. However, against full AD compositions this build path flows into the late game very similarly to the standard build, while getting you to buy early armor instead of a chalice.
Note that the Alternate build path requires that you use the "Vs. AD" rune page with Mana Regen glyphs outlined in the Rune section.
If you're fighting vs. an AD mid laner with AP top/jungle you'll also need two Cloth Armors. In this case you can delay upgrading your boots to make up the cost difference.
Although not specifically listed, don't forget to buy wards!
Cost: 4150 Gold
After mana regen, CDR is your most desired statistic. Athenes gives both, so you're going to finish Athenes ASAP. The Needlessly Large Rod gives you a jump in AP and can branch off several ways depending on the game.
Cost: 12062 Gold
Normally you want Deathcap before Void Staff, but sometimes it's better to get Void Staff first. See the notes below for details.
Cost: 16917 Gold
This is your final build in an ideal situation. It's a versatile build with some resistances, 30% CDR and a ton of AP. See the Other Itemization section for possible changes.
As Lux your Deathfire Grasp is really your only optional item slot. While it gives you the most teamfight damage in an ideal situation, it is sometimes switched out for one of the following.
Morellonomicon can be used if the heal debuff is required against someone like Tryndamere or Mundo.
Lich Bane is strong in 1v1 fights, and can be used if you need to split push or defend against a split push.
Twin Shadows can be used if your team needs more defensive CC and/or vision control.
Banshee's Veil can be useful if you need a big MR item, or need the spellshield to prevent hard engages.
Guardian Angel is fairly poor on Lux and almost never a good idea, but against very fed Assassins can be the only useful defensive option.
Randuins Omen can be useful if you need a big Armor item.
Games vs. Malzahar or Skarner a QSS will be necessary at some point in the game. Occasionally bought vs. Warwick as well.
Swapping trinkets can be useful against stealth champions.
These two items have interesting synergy with Lux's kit. Void Staff will outdamage Deathcap on champions, but Deathcap will outdamage Void Staff on minions. Critically, getting Deathcap second will allow Lux to one shot caster minions with her E, which makes farming much easier and allows you to roam much more in the mid game.
However, if you are either A - extremely ahead, or B - extremely behind, you can and should get Void Staff first. In the first case you'll be overlevelled and one shotting caster minions anyway, and in the second case you'll be underlevelled and won't be able to one shot caster minions even with a Deathcap, so prioritizing champion damage is more important.
Personally, I try to set the marker for this at about 25 minutes, when playing from behind. If I know that by the 25 minute mark I can't have Deathcap or be close to finishing it, I'll go for Void first instead.
Two dorans rings and your mana regen glyphs here will provide about as much regen as a Chalice, but here you're also getting combat stats suited to fighting an AD lane opponent.
Although not specifically listed, don't forget to buy wards!
Cost: 5005 Gold
When buying Morellonomicon, build Forbidden Idol before Fiendish Codex.
Cost: 13652 Gold
The late game here is basically the same as it is with Athenes, but you've sacrificed your Athenes MR for a better early/mid game against an AD team.
In this build always finish your items in this order: Zhonya > Void Staff > Deathcap.
Cost: 17202 Gold
This is your final build in an ideal situation. See the Other Itemization section for possible changes.
As Lux your Deathfire Grasp is really your only optional item slot. While it gives you the most teamfight damage in an ideal situation, it is sometimes switched out for one of the following.
Lich Bane is strong in 1v1 fights, and can be used if you need to split push or defend against a split push.
Twin Shadows can be used if your team needs more defensive CC and/or vision control.
All AD teams are usually very autoattack reliant, so Ninja Tabi is a reasonable early defensive option.
Banshee's Veil can be useful if you need the spellshield to prevent hard engages.
Guardian Angel is fairly poor on Lux and almost never a good idea, but against very fed Assassins can be the only useful defensive option.
Randuins Omen can be useful if you need a big Armor item.
If the game goes late enough you can sell your Morellonomicon for an Athenes, to pick up MR after the enemy support starts building damage items. This costs 1060 gold.
Swapping trinkets can be useful against stealth champions.
I know some Lux players, even some pro Lux players, really like getting Tear + Morellonomicon, for a late game build of Seraphs, Morello, Deathcap, Void Staff and Zhonya. I've tried it and I just don't like it as much as the Athenes build. It has a theoretically stronger end game but I feel like you never actually get there. It's also more blue buff reliant than an Athenes build.
I do think it has some merit vs. an all AD team, but in comparison to the double Doran build I have listed it adds late game power by sacrificing early and mid game power. All AD compositions are strongest in the mid game and tend to fall off late, so I don't like it as much. I'm not going to include in depth instructions on Seraphs builds in this guide.
As a disclaimer, I don't think Support Lux is very good. I've been part of many a Lux support discussion, and the conclusion is always the same, that everything Support Lux does Support Zyra does better. This section of the guide is not meant to suggest that Lux is some secret OP support, but more guidelines on how to play her as support if you find yourself in that situation. If you hate or don't own Zyra, Support Lux is similar. If you first picked a solo lane Lux and have to do some rearranging because some jerk has to play mid Riven, stay positive. We can do this.
If you don't want to make a Lux Support rune page, your Standard solo lane Lux page will work fine. If you have extra pages to spare, I've found these two rune setups to be best.
Offensive: This is your standard page. 9 Hybrid Penetration 9 Flat Armor 9 Flat MR 3 Flat AP
Defensive: Use this page against enemy all in kill lanes like a Leona or a double Bruiser lane. 9 Flat Armor 9 Flat Armor 9 Flat MR 3 Flat AP
If you don't have Hybrid Penetration runes, Magic Penetration is fine for support Lux.
16/0/14 is the most offense oriented you want to go as Support Lux. This is your strongest late game mastery page and can be used against more passive enemy duos like a Soraka or Janna lane.
Ignite or Exhaust is more preference based. Ignite is more aggressive and early game focused, Exhaust more defensive and late game focused.
Taking 4 potions will give you more aggressive harassment against the enemy lane, but will make you more vulnerable to ganks. If you're not sure which option is best, I think 2 potions and a ward is a safer, more standard option.
As Support your skill maxing order is R>W>Q>E, since you get the most mileage per skill point from your shield. It's important to note that with this skill order your E will do almost no damage after early laning, and will be used mostly for vision, the slow field, and farming gold from Tribute procs.
You have two options for what skills to get your first 3 levels.
Q>E>W is your ideal, as it allows you to use E harass at level 2 to start farming gold with your Spellthief's Edge.
Q>W>E is a more defensive opener, giving you good staying power if you get pushed into a passive position at level 1.
Your build path as Support is going to start off the same every game. However, after the laning phase you need to make a decision to branch out into either damage or utility itemization, to make up for whatever your team is lacking.
Cost: 1515 Gold
These items are all based around giving you a strong laning phase. You need to continue buying potions and wards until you complete Sightstone and begin roaming.
Cost: 3660 Gold
This is your core item build. Swap your yellow trinket to a red one after buying Sightstone.
At this point you have to decide whether or not to continue building AP, or transition into utility items for the late game.
This route can be good if you're snowballing in lane, or if your team already has a lot of defense and hard engage, but lacks damage. It can also be good in poke/siege heavy comps that don't need Talismans disengage.
Cost: 13790 Gold
Since you aren't farming, you want to build Void Staff before Deathcap with this setup.
With this build you can eventually sell Frost Queens Claim for another big AP item like Zhonya's Hourglass (defensive) or Deathfire Grasp (offensive).
Note that while the gold requirements of this build are higher than the Utility based build below, you will also have more gold generation with Frost Queens Claim than you will with Talisman, making the total costs very similar.
If your team has a lot of damage already and needs help with defense or engage/disengage, you can sell your Frostfang for a Talisman of Ascension (costs 1104 gold) and switch to a more utility oriented setup.
Cost: 12664 Gold
This build gives you a lot of utility focused item actives and survivability, but doesn't have near as much AP as a more aggressive build.
On rare occasions you have some other options as support Lux.
Banner of Command instead of Zhonya can be alright in some games to help your team split push, or to help counterpush against a split pushing team. It also gives a good damage boost to a mid Zyra or Heimerdinger.
Twin Shadows can be useful instead of Zhonya if your team needs more defensive CC or vision control.
If you need more resistances vs. a mostly AD or AP team you can change your boots. In general resistances are not as much of a concern as Support as they are as Mid, however. You will be a lower priority target, and are building tankier already.
Pretty good guide, also glad to its being maintained pretty well.
Would say you can also play Lux like a scumbag. Always hide in fog-of-war, and you can delete squishes (adc, apcs and some supports) when they rotate, siege, or check baron with your 100-0 combo. You can really win games or gain momentum by being scumbag Lux.
For example, if they move to siege mid, you can hide in wraith camp and catch a squishy and 100-0. For blue side, you can 100-0 a squishy if they facecheck the bush between baron and purple side blue buff.
Lux laugh spam is an excellent valid strategy to inflict psychological pain.
I've gotten to do my new anti AD build order in 4 or 5 games now and I believe I've won all of them. I'm pretty pleased with it. One game I was 1v2 vs. Zed and Talon. That shit was stressful.
I'd like to request if anybody has any more matchups they want up on the matchup section. I know I don't have mid Lulu there and the pictures are kind of a gigantic pain in the ass to screw with, so if I'm going to screw with them I want to add a number of matchups all at once.
I actually haven't played her vs. Velkoz yet, funny enough.
So, in my continuing quest to keep this guide updated, on the top of the strategy forum and inflate my post count like crazy, I have gone through and updated all the matchup sections, as well as the summoner spells section (Heal why you make me do more work) to keep it updated to 4.5
I was skeptic on Heal, but having tried it a bunch of times now it is really, really overpowered.
awesome guide. Really like your anti-AD build. I remember trying the armguard + tear + morello build in a variety of orders but in the end it's too much money going into items that don't give enough power mid game. I think the forgoing of tear is smart. I want to pick up lux again now @_@
So I've been playing a lot of support Lux lately and I have to say it's awesome. I do not use mres glyphs, I go for ap instead and I have mpen marks as well only. Only real difficulty is to survive first 3 levels as you're squishy as fuck but the damage output is ridiculous.
I've been going for the Morello>Spellthiefs (as it helps a bit to land skillshots)>DC>VS>Zhonya. In recent games I tend to have more AP/more dmg and more gold then AP mid laners. Lux is fun, I'm gonna spam Lux games 24/7 now.
I've watched that guys stream, he's not that great. He likes to do these super risky builds where he'll take no armor/mr runes and get both tear and mejais, which is like banking on the enemy jungler being an idiot and not camping you all day.
So, I've had this discussion with multiple people recently and it's been a matchup I'm playing in something like 60-70% of my Lux games in solo queue these days, so I wanted to talk about it.
In my opinion, Lux beats Leblanc. I am going to explain why, bit by bit.
Level 1: Your spells and autos both do the same amount of damage, it's kind of whatever. If she starts W it's important to not try to hit her with a spell till after she uses it, or she will use W to dodge it.
Level 2: Leblanc beats you at level 2. This is the scariest time of the matchup because you need to be careful or you will take a lot of damage. Hitting level 2 first helps.
Level 3-5: As long as you use your shield before she gets a spell on you, you will beat her in any trade at this stage as long as you don't miss your shit. I want to go over this in detail.
Your shield blocks 80 damage, and then another 80 damage about 2 seconds later. So, lets say I see Leblanc coming up to me to W onto me and combo, so I shield in the direction she was coming from (since I am going to walk towards it). Ideally I shield about 0.5 seconds before it happens. I block 80 damage and take 155 at level 3.
When she does this shit, you do NOT back away from her. You walk towards her original distortion position and start autoing. Your second shield will hit you right before her chain snares you, so you will block ALL of the damage from the chain snare. Once she makes the decision to pop back to her Distortion spot or not, you combo her with Q auto E auto. This does 200 damage.
The end result is you've done 200 spell damage to her, she's done 155 to you. You still have 40 shield left. She's also taking minion damage since this happened behind your creeps, while you are not.
A good Leblanc will know that 3-5 the only way she can win a trade is to wait for you to try to either Q her, or E her from 600 range, and dodge it with W. So just don't use your spells. If you want to try to E her, do it from 1000 range and be prepared to let her zone you while it's on cooldown. Don't use Q until she's already used her jump. If you play like that the worst that will happen is the two of you will just farm and not attack each other, which benefits you over her.
Post 6: She still can't win a trade with you if you play this way. Your ult does more damage than hers. The problem is she can do a trade with you like this, and then do a second trade with her ult while yours is still down. If you're not ahead enough to kill her or get her real low, you can't trade with her anymore at this stage.
So if you're not ahead, just don't fight her. You have Chalice (and hopefully blue buff) at this stage, and you're farming with E. You have 1400 range on that, and if you E every wave twice you will get 4-6 minions in every wave without ever using an autoattack, depending on how much practice you have doing that kind of farming.
Leblanc is maxing W for the cooldown/waveclear at this point, and her W only has 600 range. Your goal is to make it so if she wants to trade with you, she has to use W just to close distance and is missing all of the W damage. Basically this means that all you have to do is shield when she does this. Your shield will block her damage and you'll end up using less mana than her and not taking much damage.
If she wants to be forward enough to actually hit you with W, she has to be 800 range in front of her own creeps. This means that if your jungler shows up, she'll be so far foward her W won't even get her back to the middle of the lane. If she's playing like this, get your jungler to camp the shit out of her.
Again, worst case scenario the two of you are just farming and not attacking each other. And your teamfight damage and utility scales much better than hers, so this is a preferable situation for you. Realistically what will happen is she will give up on you and try to gank side lanes, and then you just shove the wave and/or follow her and try to win the roaming game. You waveclear better than her, so you will have more time to ward and more time to roam, and your ult is long enough range that you can follow her and still assist a fight she shows up at when she gets there.
I find that matchup hilariously easy. If for some reason you can't shield yourself as she's doing her animation for any of her spells i can maybe see why.
I agree if you survive past a certain point Lux has an advantage.
I feel like you ignore a lot of potential issues.
Leblanc has a jungler. You can't just say "have your jungler camp Leblanc" and wave your hands and be done with it. I don't play Leblanc, but I do play Lux, and from the games I've played I feel like the 2v2 definitely favors the Leblanc side, especially if it takes place in the jungle and/or they begin the fight with a positional advantage. You absolutely must land your shields at the appropriate time, because Leblanc's level 3 combo does so much damage. If you're separated from your jungler, your jungler is probably just screwed. This happens pretty frequently, because the Leblanc side will often invade because they're aware of how much single target damage Leblanc can do and your jungler doesn't take the threat nearly as seriously as they should.
Following a Leblanc is not as easy as you make it sound. Fake roams can be deadly. Using E to check bushes to make a counter roam safe is time consuming. Also their jungler can just hold mid while the Leblanc does the ganking because her burst is higher.
k so i've been spamming games with FQC if only to carry shitty ADCs by going AP get better at using the active
(most of these games were not on support Lux but I think it applies)
I still think Talisman active is better most of the time. It is god-tier. Map movement, disengage/engage is just so good.
However FQC can do the following: 1) Disengage aid. It has a travel time, the snare is like 80%, you fire it behind you (possibly with your Q and E) and gtfo. Not as good as talisman 2) Wombo combo aid. I really like it with Zyra, for example, if you can catch multiple people in your R. Fire the FQC with your R and the odds are higher that the R completes the knockup on any dudes you got with it. One could use it on support Lux as a followup to someone else's AoE snare/stun i suppose, or if you somehow QRE combo someone at close range use FQC afterwards to give more time for teammate followup. 3) ADC peel aid. This is what support Lux will probably be using it for imo. Q => Q wears off or gets cleansed => FQC and E
The problem with waiting to cast spells until after she w's back is it doesn't really work vs leblancs that don't try to auto harass you.
They can go w q e w in <1 second, landing the w at max radius ahead of you, and you arn't in range to respond to it. Sure you shield 80 damage from her combo but she just doesn't sit around for 2nd chains/2nd part of shield. Her combo does enough damage that it will still hurt alot. One of two of them and you are very very 1 shotable.
What you can do is snare her as she w's in but thats really hard and she can juke it and just not hit the w damage very easily.
The trick is when she does the w q e w combo, you start walking towards her instead of away from her. It doesn't matter that you get rooted (pre 6) because she's not going to have any spells to hit you with while you're rooted, and if you timed it right the second part of your shield will block the root damage. If you run towards her you will at the very least get an E+auto after the silence wears off, and hopefully get a Q+auto+E+auto.
Even if you only get E+auto, using our level 3 example she does 155 damage to you and you do 100 to her, which considering you started flask to her dring, and hopefully got at least 1 auto off while silenced, means you still won the trade. I don't try to Q her as she's jumping in (this is REALLY hard to do), instead use your shield and then right click her or do an attack move command so you will automatically wind up an auto before she pops back out of range.
Plus, her combo costs more mana than yours. If you're shielding every trade successfully she will run out of mana before she can force you out of lane.
What matchups, if any, would you get exhaust over heal in the mid lane? I brought exhaust into the Malzahar matchup, used it before he ulted me and laughed at how little his full combo did. While in retrospect I think I got insanely lucky, it feels like against something like Zed exhaust would be preferable to heal?
I've never tried Exhaust. Dunno really. It's worth thinking about.
Zed would probably be the #1 most obvious offender. If you took it you'd want it to be against somebody with a lot of short duration burst, but who telegraphs said burst so you can hit Exhaust before the burst happens.
The problem with Exhaust is that while it's very useful in a 1v1, it's not so useful during a gank over heal, since you're only exhausting 1 of 2 targets, while the movespeed from Heal hopefully prevents you from taking damage in the first place.
Kassadin buffs will make him tougher, but not tougher early game which is what Lux cares about. She needs to be able to shut him down early. I've only played the Lux v. new Kassadin matchup once at this point but I'm not too scared.
Heal change I think is irrelevant, you'll still take it as mid and Exhaust as support.
Other than that, not really much that's Lux related. It's a small patch.
On April 20 2014 22:46 Ketara wrote: The trick is when she does the w q e w combo, you start walking towards her instead of away from her. It doesn't matter that you get rooted (pre 6) because she's not going to have any spells to hit you with while you're rooted, and if you timed it right the second part of your shield will block the root damage. If you run towards her you will at the very least get an E+auto after the silence wears off, and hopefully get a Q+auto+E+auto.
But he's talking about LB who don't stay, so you'll only shield for half (since they won't do damage after your shield comes back), and because they can WQWE very fast (and your shield has a cast animation so you won't be moving immediatly) they'll just do it and run away using the silence to prevent retaliation. Sure, you can still try to E her after it wears off when LB's something like 800-900 range away from you, but it's harder to hit.
I liked it. Not sure if I liked it more than Heal/Barrier, will need to try it a couple more times to really make a decision. But it definitely did what we expected it would.
Exhaust certainly feels smooth against Zed the once or twice I've used it. He ults, just exhaust>q him, walk away and take very little damage. Obviously heal will be better for ganks/counterganks because of the AoE, but late game exhaust will probably be better because ADC's still run heal and it has a debuff again. I think. The problem is I can't imagine anyone else that it would be useful against... maybe Ahri? Riven?
Khazix maybe. Katarina maybe. Iffy on those. Realistically Lux wins both of those matchups with current strategies anyway, while Zed is sometimes difficult.
Veigar maybe (Exhaust new range same as Veigar combo)
I wouldn't take it against Ahri and Riven.
Riven can do a lot of damage before you can react, and since her wind slash is an execute, Heal has the double effect of both healing you and lowering the execute damage. Plus the movespeed from it is good against her hopping around, while a movespeed slow doesn't actually inhibit her movement very much.
Ahri can burst you from outside the Exhaust range.
The ideal case for Exhaust is vs. champions who tell you they are about to burst you before they actually do any damage, and then do all of said damage inside of two seconds and within 650 range. The two clearest candidates for that I think are Zed and Veigar.
You max W on support Lux because the mana cost doesn't go up.
You max Q on support Morg because the snare duration goes up, Lux Q doesn't.
I'd rather have 50 more shielding on a spell level for 0 mana cost increase than 50 more damage with the mana cost going up.
Also notable is that even though their mana costs are basically the same, Morg has more flat mana and mana regen per level. Not to mention almost 100 more HP and more armor at level 1, ugh Lux's base stats are so awful.
Honestly support Morg and support Lux are very similar, it's just that Lux focuses on offense and is good against passive lanes, while Morg focuses on defense and is good against aggressive CC heavy lanes. You aren't seeing any Kog Janna right now, which is where Lux would be the better pick.
The stuff you mentioned is all true. Morg has better base stats. Q snare duration doesn't go up with Lux Q level. Mana cost goes from 50->90.
However if you have a stronger Q: -you gain a credible offensive threat, where if you use it while avoiding the enemy's hard engage, you can actually hurt people pretty bad, which may prevent enemy all-ins to begin with -the respect given to your Q in-lane should get higher because no one wants to eat a Q and get chunked or die -a higher damage Q can actually get the enemy to disengage from you -a higher damage Q can actually secure kills on overextended people
Max W makes the enemy botlane want to be more aggressive because they know your damage is 100% shit and your level 1 Q has a miserably high cooldown. W is also reactive, so you might get poked or something before even using W which makes the coveted 50 points per level for no mana cost much less useful.
I'll go play with it some more because one of my biggest problems with Support Lux is that W max laning phase is atrocious and maybe being a dick with max Q can help mitigate that.
On May 08 2014 06:22 scrubtastic wrote: k i'll try to be more eloquent this time
The stuff you mentioned is all true. Morg has better base stats. Q snare duration doesn't go up with Lux Q level. Mana cost goes from 50->90.
However if you have a stronger Q: -you gain a credible offensive threat, where if you use it while avoiding the enemy's hard engage, you can actually hurt people pretty bad, which may prevent enemy all-ins to begin with -the respect given to your Q in-lane should get higher because no one wants to eat a Q and get chunked or die -a higher damage Q can actually get the enemy to disengage from you -a higher damage Q can actually secure kills on overextended people
Max W makes the enemy botlane want to be more aggressive because they know your damage is 100% shit and your level 1 Q has a miserably high cooldown. W is also reactive, so you might get poked or something before even using W which makes the coveted 50 points per level for no mana cost much less useful.
I'll go play with it some more because one of my biggest problems with Support Lux is that W max laning phase is atrocious and maybe being a dick with max Q can help mitigate that.
I feel like if you can nullify either the support or the adcs damage with her shield thats gonna help you wins trade just as hard, but in a different way imo
Really not much Lux related in this patch. Here are the notables though.
If Jarvan starts seeing more play, he's very good against Lux both as a laner and as a jungler, so that might suck. Lets hope he remains unplayed.
As far as Kassadin goes, I feel like Kassadin is not too hard a lane for Lux now, so long as you get your harass on him while he doesn't have a shield. Since said shield is being nerfed a bit, it should be even easier. This is good.
Kha nerfs are always good.
I don't think the Heal change really changed whether or not Lux wants it, since she doesn't have any heals of her own, so the nerf doesn't really affect her like it does Nidalee and Soraka. If anything it's a buff to Lux because it's a comparative nerf to Nidalee and Soraka.
In terms of the guide, I'm going to update the summoner spells section to suggest using Exhaust against Zed. I've tried it 4 or 5 times now and I really like it. I don't really think I'd take Exhaust against anybody else at this time, though.
Seemed to work. Harder than it is in mid though because if you miss your shit he can chase you down. Best to just E him out of the lane and not snare at all until he's super low I think.
Having seen some Lux played mid I can definitely say her mid is very weak to ganks and is prone to beginning the game 0-4, 1-3, etc even with jungle ganks. I'm not sure who she bullies in lane anymore without opening herself up to being ganked easily. I see her laning phase a bit similar in line with Lulu's while being a bit less effective at overall laning. I'd say with comparative skill to who you'er laning against it's harder to outplay them with her skillset, at least with the meta champions, resulting in her laning being sub-par. Perhaps is more people played weaker mids she'd be a bit stronger. Going behind to start every game definitely negatively impacts her winrates.
Her spells still apply her passive to him even if the spells damage is 100% stopped by the shield.
Her Q is stopped by the shield, it still hits him and snares him.
Her W is unaffected.
Her E is a little odd. His shield blocks the particle from travelling any further, so if you throw it past him it will stop at him. But it doesn't detonate it, it leaves the slow field on the ground and you can choose to detonate it later if you want.
Her R gets the damage reduction but goes past him to hit things behind him (just like with Wind Wall, it's not a projectile)
This is like the most doesn't affect Lux patch ever. The only mid lane champions that were changed are ones Lux already beats and will continue to beat (or in the case of Soraka beat even harder) after said changes.
I do not think this changes the Lady of Luminosity really at all.
On May 22 2014 18:14 napo wrote: How do you play vs raka? never played it before but it surprises me lux beats raka that hard.
You take teleport and just E her at every opportunity early game, which should force her out of lane before you.
After she gets a chalice you can't really kill her anymore so you just counterpush, gank with teleport, and be happy that you outscale her. If your jungler decides to gank it should be a kill every time but he doesn't really need to because she has no kill potential on you.
Very standard play for one of the teleport lanes in the guide, really.
And another patch that had little to do with mid lane, and little to do with champions being buffed.
So, Lux is basically the same this patch. Hopefully the Karthus VU will bring a rise in Karthus play, since Lux does very well against him. She can stop his ult from killing people and she's good at shutting him down in lane.
With the focus on ADC itemization in the next patch forecast I anticipate mid lane not having dramatic changes for a while.
On June 06 2014 01:29 Ketara wrote: Another patch another post.
And another patch that had little to do with mid lane, and little to do with champions being buffed.
So, Lux is basically the same this patch. Hopefully the Karthus VU will bring a rise in Karthus play, since Lux does very well against him. She can stop his ult from killing people and she's good at shutting him down in lane.
With the focus on ADC itemization in the next patch forecast I anticipate mid lane not having dramatic changes for a while.
On June 06 2014 01:29 Ketara wrote: Another patch another post.
And another patch that had little to do with mid lane, and little to do with champions being buffed.
So, Lux is basically the same this patch. Hopefully the Karthus VU will bring a rise in Karthus play, since Lux does very well against him. She can stop his ult from killing people and she's good at shutting him down in lane.
With the focus on ADC itemization in the next patch forecast I anticipate mid lane not having dramatic changes for a while.
Umm Karthus eats Lux alive in lane.
I know, because I main Karthus.
Are you under the assumption that Ketara doesn't main lux?
On June 06 2014 01:29 Ketara wrote: Another patch another post.
And another patch that had little to do with mid lane, and little to do with champions being buffed.
So, Lux is basically the same this patch. Hopefully the Karthus VU will bring a rise in Karthus play, since Lux does very well against him. She can stop his ult from killing people and she's good at shutting him down in lane.
With the focus on ADC itemization in the next patch forecast I anticipate mid lane not having dramatic changes for a while.
Umm Karthus eats Lux alive in lane.
I know, because I main Karthus.
Follow a Lux roam and tell me how that works out for you.
On June 06 2014 01:29 Ketara wrote: Another patch another post.
And another patch that had little to do with mid lane, and little to do with champions being buffed.
So, Lux is basically the same this patch. Hopefully the Karthus VU will bring a rise in Karthus play, since Lux does very well against him. She can stop his ult from killing people and she's good at shutting him down in lane.
With the focus on ADC itemization in the next patch forecast I anticipate mid lane not having dramatic changes for a while.
Umm Karthus eats Lux alive in lane.
I know, because I main Karthus.
Follow a Lux roam and tell me how that works out for you.
I feel like you dont need to roam as hard cause you can use your ult and contribute almost as much as she does int he time shes walking, expect you get to farm while doing it
On June 06 2014 01:29 Ketara wrote: Another patch another post.
And another patch that had little to do with mid lane, and little to do with champions being buffed.
So, Lux is basically the same this patch. Hopefully the Karthus VU will bring a rise in Karthus play, since Lux does very well against him. She can stop his ult from killing people and she's good at shutting him down in lane.
With the focus on ADC itemization in the next patch forecast I anticipate mid lane not having dramatic changes for a while.
Umm Karthus eats Lux alive in lane.
I know, because I main Karthus.
Follow a Lux roam and tell me how that works out for you.
I feel like you dont need to roam as hard cause you can use your ult and contribute almost as much as she does int he time shes walking, expect you get to farm while doing it
On June 08 2014 13:24 Ketara wrote: I'd be interested in an explanation of how Karthus possibly beats Lux in lane.
When making a claim like that, it would be good to also link your lolking profile at the very least, so we know what rank we're talking about here.
Karthus can farm safely against Lux (fairly, though theres not much he can't farm vs) and if he runs teleport is basically assured to be able to farm till lategame, where he outscales Lux, regardless if Lux picks up a kill or two.
On June 06 2014 01:29 Ketara wrote: Another patch another post.
And another patch that had little to do with mid lane, and little to do with champions being buffed.
So, Lux is basically the same this patch. Hopefully the Karthus VU will bring a rise in Karthus play, since Lux does very well against him. She can stop his ult from killing people and she's good at shutting him down in lane.
With the focus on ADC itemization in the next patch forecast I anticipate mid lane not having dramatic changes for a while.
Umm Karthus eats Lux alive in lane.
I know, because I main Karthus.
Follow a Lux roam and tell me how that works out for you.
I feel like you dont need to roam as hard cause you can use your ult and contribute almost as much as she does int he time shes walking, expect you get to farm while doing it
Sure, but you don't have an easy lane because lux's e/q can zone you due to her auto attack strength advantage(strength, animation, burst) and can zone you in team fights with e/combo. Sure you can farm ok as Karthus and you can probably get some off lane pressure by shoving mid and ulting. But in a team fight you don't have a good way to get into the fight without being obliterated.
To me it feels kind of like the Karthus/Veigar matchup. Sure Karthus can farm easy enough in lane, and he can help out other lanes by ulting and taking Veigar's tower. But Veigar's E still zones him(until third/fourth item when Karthus can get BV), and his combo still reduces karthus to an ult-bot at pretty much any point in the game, and a roam by Veigar/Lux will do more than losing mid tower will so long as the Veigar/Lux take an objective with the roam.
Beating Lux as Karthus seems like its your jungler doing more of the work. Your jungler has to prevent the effective Lux roam so that your farming makes a difference. In team fights the rest of your team has to help overcome your weakness to Lux's zone control so that you don't die too far away from their team.
But anyway, Karthus vs Viegar is tough, not so much early game, but later because he can burst you down so quickly, forcing you to buy a BV and lots of MR.
Karthus vs Lux is easy, and you absolutely don't need the junglers help. Either Lux plays passive and you both farm and you beat her badly mid and late game, or she is aggressive trying to kill you early. I prefer to play versus the aggressive Lux.
Basically, if Lux misses her Q (or Karthus dodges it) and Karthus had mana, she is dead. Karthus just throws down his W, activates E, and moves toward her and as long as he hits a few Q's she is dead. If she flashes, he flashes to catch her.
The key here is being able to dodge her Q and hit your Q's. And that comes down to positioning. You need to know where you can be and where you can't be, and where she is going to be to land your Q's and dodge her spells. Master positioning and you'll master Karthus and any other champs that don't have mobility spells. Probably the reason I am also good at Ashe too.
Karthus is really the ultimate counter puncher mid. I love facing Fizz, Ahri, Lux... ect... because if they miss any of their spells, you can easily finish them. However, you cannot initiate on them until they burn said spells.
I will say that Karthus cannot roam well, but that doesn't mean you're losing. Occasionally, you can roam and use W to setup kills, but basically you're stuck mid and you'll use your ult to assist other lanes. A good Karthus makes sure to push hard and call mia when his lane is roaming.
Well obviously if you just outplay the lux so that you get really far ahead then its an easy matchup. But when the key to winning the matchup is "outplay them so that they don't hit any of their skill shots onto my low move speed champion who has no mobility spells" then you've got issues. Especially when your response to her roaming is "hope i can push the wave faster than she can snowball the side lanes"
Basically what do you do if she E's and then auto's you? Do you respond with w into Q spam? If you W she Q's you and backs off, winning the trade taking a single Q to E,Q,auto. And your Q has to go through her shield.
What do you do if she E's you and then zones you until the light comes off then E's you again?
I mean sure if you play against a lux who just throws her Q out willy nilly then you can dodge that and go ham but i can't see that working on someone who uses e. I mean, if you do catch her with her Q down, not having used her E she can always force you out by dropping the e in your way and running, you won't catch up while stopping for your q animation.
Ketarah and BronzeKnee (unless that's his smurf) are both plat so they're basically talking from similar levels. However, if we're talking about champions that lets Karthus do his thing (which is IMO what you should consider a winning matchup for Karthus), I can see Lux being one of them.
I really don't see this as a constructive argument.
Dai and I agree that Lux beats Karthus in lane.
BronzeKnee's argument for how you beat Lux as Karthus is based around Lux missing Q's, which means he's playing against bad Lux's. This is how Lux loses a lot of matchups.
The correct way to play Lux is to not use Q at all in lane, unless you meet one of two requirements: 1 - Not using it is going to get you killed 2 - Using it and missing it is not going to get you killed
The way Lux beats Karthus, as with most matchups where she outranges an opponent with no appreciable engage, is by never using Q and just hitting him with E's on cooldown until he either has to leave the lane or risk getting killed by her ult. There's no way Karthus can stop her from doing this as her E outranges all of his spells and he has no built in sustain.
At best Karthus can, as Dai said, keep up reasonably in farm and make it to late game where he will outscale her whether or not she got a few kills early in the game.
But that's not "winning the lane", that is losing the lane and outscaling later in the game.
I'm not seeing any insights or innovations beyond the above in this discussion, and any further discussion is IMO just epenises talking and I don't really want it in the thread.
Dai seems to agree more that Karthus is a "winning matchup" against Lux from my interpretation. Winning matchups for good scaling champions tend to be anything that they can outscale and doesn't really punish them. I don't know what you mean by "winning lane" but I assume you don't mean the very amateur soloq viewpoint of "I get a bunch of kills". Outscaling someone hard is definitely one of the qualification.
Isn't this thread meant for discussing Lux and his matchups? I think BronzeKnee's points are pretty valid and hardly seem to be "epenises" talking, save the part where you ask him to post his lolking. This whole discussion started from your comment that Lux here:
On June 06 2014 01:29 Ketara wrote: Another patch another post.
And another patch that had little to do with mid lane, and little to do with champions being buffed.
So, Lux is basically the same this patch. Hopefully the Karthus VU will bring a rise in Karthus play, since Lux does very well against him. She can stop his ult from killing people and she's good at shutting him down in lane.
With the focus on ADC itemization in the next patch forecast I anticipate mid lane not having dramatic changes for a while.
I think the Lux Karthus matchup is well worth discussing especially because he's currently viewed as a strong pick thanks to the tweaks his Q. (or bug as some would call it)
PS. As an aside, I got to say your guide is beautiful looking though. Kind of reminds me of Atrioc's legendary guides.
Don't shove the wave, E him a lot. Don't use Q unless you have to.
Karth can kill you level 1-2 if you screw up and underestimate his damage, but if you don't screw up, you should be shoving him out of the lane repeatedly. You should have a CS lead and you should take his tower. It's really up to him whether or not you kill him, if he sticks around when he's low you can get kills, but if he backs a lot and gives up the lane it's difficult to get kills. However, in that situation you can take his tower, roam and apply pressure elsewhere.
This is honestly very typical of a lot of Lux matchups. When Lux is winning, she's not dominating the opposition. She forces them to back over and over and over and builds up a small advantage, which she hopefully leverages into mid game teamfights and roaming. Ideally, by the time Karthus reaches late game, Lux has gotten her team ahead by using the mid game pressure she applies to secure map objectives and maintain a gold lead.
It is the same playstyle as Ziggs honestly. They're real similar champions. Ziggs is still just seen as the superior pick for it because he does more damage than Lux does.
BronzeKnee's argument for how you beat Lux as Karthus is based around Lux missing Q's, which means he's playing against bad Lux's. This is how Lux loses a lot of matchups.
I don't think you understand. If I dodge the Q, I win because Karthus has the skills to easily defeat in Lux in lane. It comes down to the abilities of the champion. And with good position, it is pretty easy to dodge her Q, even if you need to burn flash to dodge it, you can kill Lux.
The same can't be said about Zyra, she is a nightmare for Karthus, even if she misses her root spell, she can out damage him.
On June 12 2014 13:17 Ketara wrote: You can't dodge a snare that hasn't been cast yet.
You miss 100% of the shots you don't take.
Ever heard that? Wayne Gretzky laid down that nugget of truth.
So yeah, I dodge 100% of the shots you never cast. If you cast and I dodge, I will kill you. If you don't cast, then I can free farm and carry. Karthus is a lot stronger than Lux in team fights, you don't want him farmed.
This isn't about my e-penis, which is admittedly huge... this is about Lux just not being a good matchup for Karthus. People think champs like Lux or Fizz are, but I eat them alive regularly. Just the way LOL and champion counters work.
On June 12 2014 13:17 Ketara wrote: You can't dodge a snare that hasn't been cast yet.
You miss 100% of the shots you don't take.
Ever heard that? Wayne Gretzky laid down that nugget of truth.
So yeah, I dodge 100% of the shots you never cast. If you cast and I dodge, I will kill you. If you don't cast, then I can free farm and carry. Karthus is a lot stronger than Lux in team fights, you don't want him farmed.
This isn't about my e-penis, which is admittedly huge... this is about Lux just not being a good matchup for Karthus. People think champs like Lux or Fizz are, but I eat them alive regularly. Just the way LOL and champion counters work.
Yeah I can see that too lol. I mean Karthus can farm from almost 1000 range away and do that in all but the most brutal of matchups, vs something like zed or anything witha hard gap closer. And it doesnt change the fact Karthus is in most cases the hardest scaling mid in the game anyway.
I could see Karthus winning this tbh. It's like those people that think Fizz beats Swain when the opposite is alot closer to the truth or something
The correct way to play Lux is to not use Q at all in lane, unless you meet one of two requirements: 1 - Not using it is going to get you killed 2 - Using it and missing it is not going to get you killed
Your 2- makes it a huge blanket statement that can be applied to any and all abilities in the game, though.
On the other hand, if Lux misses her Q and she isn't too close to Karthus, even if he hits his W she can drop her E between them and run away, the slow will prevent Karthus from hitting too many Qs or enter Defile range, nothing Lux's obnoxious "oh you don't deal instant burst? GET FUCKED" shield can't handle.
It's a pretty simple statement but it's something that's important to understand in order to lane properly.
There are many MANY lanes as Lux where if you attempt to snare somebody and miss, it creates a window where they can all in you and gain a big advantage.
What's preventing them from doing that all in is not your snare, it is the threat that you COULD snare them and combo them. Once that threat is gone, you lose your lane pressure.
Further, in most matchups Lux does not actually need to snare people to harass them out of lane. All you need to do is hit E's reliably, and your E outranges basically everyone in the game who isn't Ziggs or Xerath.
So in many matchups, it is important to not use Q at all unless you're 100% positive that it's a good idea for that situation. Using it haphazardly can easily lose you the lane.
I actually learned this piece of information doing 1v1's with Navi, and it played a big part in taking me from gold to plat, I think.
So, the good thing about Ori v Lux is that you're both long range farmbots with low kill potential, so neither side should be winning lane very hard and these games are likely going to come down to teamfights and positioning more than laning and mechanics.
The bad thing is that I feel like Ori is both a little stronger than you in lane and a little stronger than you in late game teamfights. You also both set up ganks really well.
The problem with her in lane is that your ability to win trades with her is very limited.
If you just hit each other with spells (she Q-W's you, you shield the W and E her), she typically wins the trade.
If you trade spells and then go up and auto each other, she also typically wins the trade. This is because your passive will only work for 1 or 2 autos, but hers will work for every auto. The longer you are autoing each other the harder she is going to win the trade. This also means you can't bully her at level 1-2, and lanes that Lux wins are typically ones where she can bully hard at level 1 and 2.
The trade that you can win is one where each of you only get one autoattack. E her, go up and get one auto, and then immediately back away. Your movespeed is faster than hers and you have the same range, so you should be able to make it so the both of you only get one autoattack, and your passive hits harder than her first auto does.
If you Q-E her you can stick around for two autos, but don't give her more than that.
I like to go 22/0/8 for movespeed in this lane, and rush boots2 right after Chalice. Your biggest advantage in this lane is that it's a lot harder for her to dodge your E than it is for you to dodge her W, so dodging the ball as much as possible is critical and being a boots level ahead of her lets you do that while easily dictating how many autoattacks a trade will last for. This is the same setup I use against Ziggs, the lanes play out very similarly.
Later in the game, she does more teamfight damage than you do, but her effective range is lower and your shield is better at dealing with enemy poke, so if you can try to make it more about sieging and poking than hard engage, but that is fairly typical Lux anyway.
All in all I think a good Orianna is one of the hardest matchups for Lux. She is just a very similar champion but slightly stronger than you at all stages of the game, so the avenues to outplay her are extremely limited.
Lux actually has 25 auto range more than Orianna, and in teamfights, picks, skirmishes, etc. it's less risky for Lux to fuck up her ult than it is for Orianna because different cooldowns and Lux's utility in a fight is higher than Orianna's if both don't have their ults when a fight breaks out. Lux also has more range and can't be flashed out of when she goes for a EQR combo, compared to a single Orianna QRW (she does a bit more damage and until pretty late will keep one-shotting squishies she catches if she's not behind, Orianna needs to be really really ahead to 100-0 people).
Orianna dps and shield spam (+resists) on a single target stronger in a drawn-out fight though.
Okay so, watched the game. I liked it, Frozen played it pretty standard. It's a very strong team comp for Lux, all 5 champs are good at poke and disengage, and I think Lux is a decent pick vs Braum because he can't stop her ult from hitting people behind him. Lux vs Ziggs is I think a little to Ziggs advantage in lane, but it's just a farm lane and if people are playing at Champions level they shouldn't be killing each other 1v1, which is what happened.
I think Frozen didn't switch from E>auto to auto>E at level 9, which cost him some CS in the 15-20 minute area before he finished Deathcap. I do think it's normal to be a little behind Ziggs in CS though, but not that far behind.
Unfortunately I'm not on TL much anymore, and updating the thread is a lot of work. If there's some more interest when the buff comes out I might update the OP.
Basically here are the numbers on the changes:
Right now, you should never be buying Athenes anymore. It's a bad item.
Instead, you should be getting Chalice+Morellonomicon against AP, and 2x dorans + Morellonomicon (with mp5 blues) against AD.
Chalice+Morellonomicon gives better stats than Athenes for a similar pricepoint and a better buildup (for Lux) since you can go Chalice>Forbidden Idol. You don't go to 6 items on Lux very fast so you can afford to take up more item slots in the mid game. Late game you can either sell the Chalice for a 6th item, or sell the Morello, upgrade Chalice to Athenes, and then buy a 6th item, depending on how much you feel like you need the MR.
Once Chalice is nerfed this might change. In terms of damage it will still be worth it to go Chalice+Morello, but in terms of defense it may be worth it to just get Athenes. I imagine it will be situational to the game and I actually like that a lot.
The passive AP ratio buff is the exact change I want for Lux and have been waiting for for months. It's going to allow her to open Dorans Ring, and it will be a sizeable damage increase, especially at low levels. At level 1 it's about a 10% increase to her damage, and at level 2 it's a 5% increase to the damage of her Q-auto-E-auto combo. It's also a slight increase to her combo damage, and an increase to her late game sustained damage in long fights. It's just a big buff, pure and simple.
I'm hoping that it's going to be enough to push her into real early game bully status against mids like Ziggs and Orianna, because that's what she needs to look competitive right now.
For comparison, Lux passive will do equal damage to Ziggs passive at level 2 and more from 3 until both sides start buying AP, and from level 2 two Lux passive autos will outdamage 3 Orianna passive autos. Neither of these things are true before this change happens.
On July 28 2014 01:53 Ketara wrote: The passive AP ratio buff is the exact change I want for Lux and have been waiting for for months. It's going to allow her to open Dorans Ring, and it will be a sizeable damage increase, especially at low levels. At level 1 it's about a 10% increase to her damage, and at level 2 it's a 5% increase to the damage of her Q-auto-E-auto combo. It's also a slight increase to her combo damage, and an increase to her late game sustained damage in long fights. It's just a big buff, pure and simple.
Is this implying that you don't start with Doran's ring on Lux?
I still think opening flask is going to be better than doran's ring in mid lane. Lux has a hard time getting kills 1v1 in lane unless her opponent makes a mistake and the 1.5 damage an early dorans ring would add to her passive doesn't help much. Flask is much more sustain for bullying your opponent out of the lane so you can secure level 6 first.
However, now that her passive has an AP ratio its much more lucrative to buy double dorans on your first back instead of chalice. You lose out on the early MR but you gain extra HP to compensate. Plus the 30 AP from 2x dorans will add 6 damage to each of your passive procs.
"Assuming you first back at level 5" Lux base mana regen at level 5 = 9 mana per 5 seconds. 2x Doran ring = 9 base regen + 6 regen + 8 regen with perfect last hits on non-cannon waves. Chalice = 9 base regen + 7 regen + (0-16 regen).
The regen is identical when you're sitting at half mana bar. But the extra damage from rings is a huge plus when you're looking to burst someone at level 6. There's no reason to get chalice in lane unless you can't last hit to save your life. Team fights are a different story but by then you should have either Athene's or Morello's which will probably always be Morello's now after the nerfs.
~edit: Never thought of this but with Heal being so predominant in the meta currently the Grievous Wounds passive from Morello's looks even better.
It's a question of which gives you more stats for less money.
Technically, Dorans Ring costs less money than Flask (what lol I can explain this) as a starting item.
This is because Dorans Ring costs 35 less gold in potions. So assuming you're going to buy both a dorans and a flask regardless, you actually delay your build less by starting Dorans.
Right now, Flask is just blatantly better.
I'd need to do all the math again but I'm fairly confident that the change will make Dring equivalent or better in initial laning. If it's equivalent, it's cheaper to open Dring. Lux's big lane bully period is actually not level 6, it's level 1-3. I think against good players if Lux gets a 1v1 kill she usually does it at level 2 or 3. And I think being able to start Dring will help with that a lot.
Right now Dring is already better at level 1-2 obviously, but by level 5 it's just MUCH worse than starting Flask, which will cause you to lose lanes if you open Dring because you normally don't go back till level 5-6.
Dont you run into item slot issues with chalice + nomicon?
Boots + flask (or dorans, whatever you prefer as a starting item) + wards + chalice + morellonomicon is already 5 slots, you're most like going to have to sell flask or skip wards while building your next item unless you want to sit on a lot of gold for extended periods of time.
840 gold, and I dont like the idea of skipping out on wards for a slightly more gold efficient build. If you're gonna go morello, why dont you atleast go tear for a significantly stronger 4/5 item build? Chalice is just not worth an item slot if you're not going to upgrade it for the majority of the game, imo.
Mejais is like "core" for all the ap mids on the chinese server. Its actually decent if your team is behind and you can be sure you will be able to pick up some kills/assists without dying. Its very strong if you want to snowball and maintain that midgame advantage all the way into lategame. Its also especially true for lower tier players who understand that mid lane needs to roam, picks a strong AP assassin (kat/fizz) that cannot farm lanes too well, and needs mejais to "snowball". Apply that to every midlaner and then have these mid laners improve up the tiers into diamond/challenger and there you go. Standard, core item.
Tbh I never understood the "BM" about the two items. Fully stacked mejais is basically another deathcap, while soto on ad assassins (especially talon with mobo boots) is a crazy freelo machine.
Regarding Lux, I expect to see more and more of her if the Xerath trend continues. Shes decent during laning phase vs xerath, able to abuse his low mobility with her super easy to hit E. Her wave clear is on par, and her aoe shield during teamfights is amazing vs him.
If you wanna go mejais, I think Lux is a pretty good candidate.
Her range lets her position very safely in teamfights, her W lets her pick up easy assists, and her R allows for killstealing kill securing. Gaining and keeping a few stacks shouldn't be problematic for Lux in most games.
I think with the athenes and chalice nerfs, old school Lux is viable again. Manaregen/lvl seals and double dorans straight in to NLR-> Deathcap to get your waveclear started. Her cooldowns remain ridiculously long but since E is so easy to hit before they have boots 2, you can get enough waveclear and opening damage out of a single E that they cant capitalize as much on your stuff being on cooldown. You get a bigger midgame powerspike with double dorans and boots over chalice, especially during blue buffs. She definitely needs a CDR item in her final build, but I don't think getting it after Rabadon or even Void staff hurts her too much. If laning phase ends early, blue elixirs can help you out for important team fights.
The chalice/Athenes nerf just gives her more reason to get bursty, both because other casters wont have as much MR when they prefer still building it and because she doesn't need it as much in the laning phase when you can start clearing fast with high damage E's that also hit your opponent.
Edit: I also agree she's one of the best casters to get Mejai's on. Def. worth considering.
On August 02 2014 17:38 padfoota wrote: Mejais is like "core" for all the ap mids on the chinese server. Its actually decent if your team is behind and you can be sure you will be able to pick up some kills/assists without dying. Its very strong if you want to snowball and maintain that midgame advantage all the way into lategame. Its also especially true for lower tier players who understand that mid lane needs to roam, picks a strong AP assassin (kat/fizz) that cannot farm lanes too well, and needs mejais to "snowball". Apply that to every midlaner and then have these mid laners improve up the tiers into diamond/challenger and there you go. Standard, core item.
Tbh I never understood the "BM" about the two items. Fully stacked mejais is basically another deathcap, while soto on ad assassins (especially talon with mobo boots) is a crazy freelo machine.
Regarding Lux, I expect to see more and more of her if the Xerath trend continues. Shes decent during laning phase vs xerath, able to abuse his low mobility with her super easy to hit E. Her wave clear is on par, and her aoe shield during teamfights is amazing vs him.
I don't consider it BM, it was a just a joke about the youngbuck/unlimited drama about Alliance building 4 stack items vs CW.
Lux is def. one of the top champion picks for Mejai's, but I still think it's a cheesy item so I'm not going to include it in the guide
As to Zodde's "why chalice" question, unfortunately chalice is still just mandatory.
If you're vs. an AD you can do double dorans + morello and mana regen blues and skip the chalice, which is a strong build. But if you're not doing 2x dorans + Mregen blues the chalice is just a requirement. Chalice passive is too OP.
In regards to the "oldschool" double dorans into Deathcap build, I mean. There's a reason why Lux wasn't a strong pick when people built this way, and then suddenly shot up to top tier competitive / overpowered status in late S2 / early S3 when people switched from this build to Athenes. It's just better. Even with all the Athenes nerfs I think it's still better.
Lux's strongest phase of the game is the early/mid game, and her strength is all about building early mana regen + CDR.
I'd actually like to try AP blues on her, now that her AP ratios are so high. Counting the passive she has 0.9 on Q and 0.8 on E now, that's really high.
On August 04 2014 10:17 Ketara wrote: Lux is def. one of the top champion picks for Mejai's, but I still think it's a cheesy item so I'm not going to include it in the guide
As to Zodde's "why chalice" question, unfortunately chalice is still just mandatory.
If you're vs. an AD you can do double dorans + morello and mana regen blues and skip the chalice, which is a strong build. But if you're not doing 2x dorans + Mregen blues the chalice is just a requirement. Chalice passive is too OP.
In regards to the "oldschool" double dorans into Deathcap build, I mean. There's a reason why Lux wasn't a strong pick when people built this way, and then suddenly shot up to top tier competitive / overpowered status in late S2 / early S3 when people switched from this build to Athenes. It's just better. Even with all the Athenes nerfs I think it's still better.
Lux's strongest phase of the game is the early/mid game, and her strength is all about building early mana regen + CDR.
I'd actually like to try AP blues on her, now that her AP ratios are so high. Counting the passive she has 0.9 on Q and 0.8 on E now, that's really high.
Gonna try morello + chalice for a few games, could be me just being stubborn lol.
2 dring Dcap is horrible, tried it when snowballing a few times (1600+ first back, lets go NLR, oh wait this sucks). You can however go chalice Dcap and then build cdr later, gives you a lot of wave clear and enough mana.
Okay, seeing Lux in LCS this week made me want to update the thread, so I did.
Lot of changes to things this time around, so I will summarize.
1st - Summoner spells changed to reflect that Heal has been nerfed so much. I think both Barrier and Heal are acceptable now, and it is a preferential thing.
2nd - Having tried it, I think Dring openings are strong now, and having one Dring helps to make up for the nerfs to Chalice and Athenes. Forget going Chalice+Morello now, as if you have a Dring you no longer have the necessary item slots.
3rd - Messed around with the other itemization stuff. Most importantly, I think the increased AP ratios makes it okay in the super late game to sell your Boots for a Lich Bane now.
4th - Changed the Support Itemization around quite a lot, although I imagine people don't much care about that. Ardent Censer I think needs more AP before people are going to give a shit about it, just like we saw with Twin Shadows before.
The passive buff is kind of an awkward change to support Lux. It helps her if you're building damage, and helps in the very early lane (levels 1-3), but if you end up building utility items she'll be doing less damage than she was before. All in all it's not really a big change for her good or bad, and I still think support Lux is pretty crappy. Buffs to Ardent Censer may change that in the future.
As to the Illumination buff as mid lane and subsequent nerfs to other popular mid laners, I think Lux is in a pretty good spot right now. As a long range farming mage, her chief competition for that spot on a team are champions like Ziggs, Orianna and Xerath. Ziggs and Orianna are both feeling (or soon to feel, fuck you Ori) the nerfbat pretty hard, which I'm hoping will make Lux and Xerath more popular. We've been seeing both getting picked up in pro play recently, and soon might be in a place where it's viable to pick any of the four at a competitive level.
According to that it's fairly 50/50, but once you get up to Diamond it becomes 51/49 in favor of Lux.
Basically, the way this matchup works is as follows:
If Lux plays properly (opens Q-W and takes barrier) and Fizz tries to all in at 2 or 3, Lux ends up getting a kill.
If Fizz doesn't try to all in, Lux harasses him down and gets to level 6 first with a CS lead.
If the Lux is bad and tries to go aggro on Fizz at this point, Fizz can hop over snares and bully the lane. But if the Lux doesn't Q until after Fizz uses his jump, she can outshove Fizz (which means she has more roaming opportunity) and move to teamfights, where she's actually pretty good at preventing Fizz from killing squishies.
Best way to win as Fizz in this matchup is to call for lots of ganks. Lux wins most 1v1 duels with Fizz, but she wins them barely, and is often sub-100 HP after the fight, so it doesn't take much from a jungler to turn it into a kill for Fizz, and it doesn't take much of that to get Fizz snowballing to the point where Lux can't win the 1v1's anymore.
I still open E vs Fizz. Am i bad? I mash his face in lvl 1 with E+auto, afk farm lvl 2 (i get Q to self peel), and then idc from there i play "normal" i guess.
You can open E, especially if you know you're going to hit level 2 first.
Opening Q was more required when Fizz was going 30/0 Ignite/Barrier in S3. There you HAD to be Q+W at level 2 to survive that shit.
Basically, if Fizz tries to jump on you right when he hits level 2, you let him jump on you, then snare him at melee range while he's inside all of your minions, and your minions end up killing him.
The other big trick vs. Fizz is to use Barrier immediately rather than saving it. Since he does damage based on missing health you want to use Barrier when you're still close to 100% HP and have that +W absorb his burst, so his subsequent autos don't do a lot of missing HP damage.
Hey, been playing Lux recently again to good success in Plat 4. I have a couple questions.
How do you play against assassins like Talon, Akali, Zed and etc? 2nd summoner: barrier, tp, exhaust or heal? I see that you recommend 21/9/0 masteries in some match-ups, how does that affect your mana usage?
Also what are some reasons or times to roam as Lux? I tend to not really roam much as mid.
I feel pretty comfortable against other AP mages as it just becomes a farm fest.
What do you think about scaling aps blues vs mr blues vs flat ap blues? I like scaling ap's, maximum laser damage especially in farming matchups.
How I play Lux below in spoilers and some notes on some match-ups.
1. Lux vs Katarina - I went Ignite for kill pressure. I think that Katarina's a really bad laner, easily bullied and has trouble controlling the wave. Also Kat had a Quinn Jungle who was fb'ed by me in a jungle invade. Easily outfarm and a get kill on Kat and pressure her and set up/control wards mid. Kat will only be dangerous when she gets jungle help...otherwise Lux wins the 1v1.
2. Lux vs Annie - I went heal to try to survive Annie burst a lil. Well this time Annie got a fb on our support. I die lv 3 or lv 2 to Annie's burst and flash. Timed the flash cuz gotta know when you may probably die again. Eventually I just farm quite safely.
3. Lux vs Xerath - farm lane. I pressured better pre-6, pre-back. He pressured better after that. It seems he can if E + W combos you, you're stunned long enough by the E that you can't W to shield his W.
His team had a soup kitchen Cait for me to get fed on.
4. Lux vs Ahri - play safe, farm lane. Dodge her skillshots and landed E's, but can't necessarily trigger mark on her (after lv2/3), cuz she can charm you. I won pre-6 and got a kill. Once Ahri gets DFG though have to play safe. Well it was a bad Ahri.
Lux Midgame is pretty good. Sweeper and some wards are necessary to control mid, would get them 1st to 3rd back. Most fun as Lux is to hide behind things and 100-0 people.
I think scaling AP blues are fine if you're comfortable with that. Not sure that I like flat APs, although to be fair, they just got a lot better after the passive buff. With flat APs your level 2 Q-auto-E-auto combo would be doing about 375 damage. That's about 50 more damage than a level 2 Ori combo.
As far as roaming, I think basically the best time to roam as Lux is when a fight is about to go down in another lane. It's difficult to just talk about roaming in general terms. But for Lux specifically, Lux isn't much of a 1 on 1 champion, unless you're fed and can instakill somebody. In a typical game, Lux is stronger the more people there are in a fight, since all 4 of her abilities are big AOE. Because of this, I will typically roam bot a lot more often than top.
She's also good at roaming to assist fights because she can laser things before she gets there. It's important to actually have your camera on the fight as you're moving down, even a half second stun gives you a guaranteed max range laser hit. In many cases just an exhaust or a big slow lets you hit the laser guaranteed.
As far as Assassins go, you typically want Barrier. Exhaust vs. Zed.
There's basically two types of Assassins. The ones who will go aggro on you pre 6 (Talon, Fiora, Fizz) and the ones who will generally not do anything until 6 (Akali, Kassadin, Katarina). Zed and Yasuo are a little bit trickier because they're really capable of both playstyles.
In the first group (Talon/Fizz/Fiora), you want to be extremely aggro level 1, and then back off as soon as they hit level 2. None of these champions can do anything to you at level 1, they either have their gapcloser and no damage, or damage and no gapcloser, so you can abuse them as much as you want. Basically your goal is to A - hit level 2 first (first minion of the second wave), and B - have more HP than them by the time they hit level 2.
Once they hit level 2, you back off. You play defensive 2-6 and don't let them kill you. Your first back you buy some defensive gear, either Chalice or 1-2 Cloth Armors for your Armguard. If you do the initial lane well you should have an EXP advantage (meaning you'll hit each level a little bit before they do) and a gold advantage which you've put entirely into defensive items, and then hopefully you're capable of duelling them should it come to that.
These champions usually are strong in 1v1's and weaker in 5v5's, while you are strong in a 5v5 and not so hot in 1v1, so if you just stay ahead of them in farm and don't die, you'll be able to beat them in the late game. That's not true for every situation obviously, but it's usually true.
The second group (Akali, Kassadin, Katarina) are absolute pushovers 1-5, and then suddenly become scary as fuck level 6 and just get scarier and scarier. Katarina not so much as Akali/Kassadin, IMO Katarina is just a bad champ atm. You need to be a kill up on these guys by level 6. You can afford to bully them like crazy 1-5 and your jungler should be ganking for you before they hit 6 to ensure you get a kill.
If you are a kill ahead and an item ahead, then even if Akali/Kassadin jump on you, you should still win a straight fight. If you're not sufficiently ahead then as soon as they hit 6 you basically have to play passive as fuck for the remainder of the lane, and only fight them when your jungler comes.
In what match ups should Lux start Q or E first? And is W at level two only necessary against heavy early aggro champs? I have been going Q>E or E>Q in pretty much every match. Q first for level 1 fights, E first for just going into lane.
Basically, if you think they're going to all in you at level 2, W at 2 is great, because it's a 160 strength shield when they're trying to all in and break both parts. You'd rather have a 160 strength shield than an 80 strength damaging spell that can miss.
I go Q-W against matchups like Fiora, Xin Zhao, Fizz, Jarvan, Wukong, etc. People who can't really fight without going all in and can't go all in before level 2.
These champions usually have a timing window at either level 2 or 3 where they need to try to kill you. If they don't, you'll slowly win the lane just with autoattacks. Their goal is to either kill you at their timing, or get you so low that you can't survive a second round, so that they can deny you farm after that with the threat of a second all in.
Going Q-W allows you to survive pretty much any all in attempt, and will often end up with you killing them instead. As soon as they jump on you you shield, then snare them inside of all of your minions. There is almost no level 2 fight that Lux will lose if you do this, because the double strength shield is just so ridiculously strong at level 2, and your minions will do a lot of damage to them.
That's basically the only time I'll go Q-W. I go Q-E if we invade and I use the snare to catch somebody, but in every other circumstance E-Q is ideal.
Note also that you only want to take W at 2 if you think said champion is going to jump on you. If you win level 1 hard enough that they're too low to jump on you already, you can take E at 2 and continue bullying them.
For Fizz specifically, E-Q-W is probably fine these days. I'm noticing most Fizzes now don't try a level 2 all in anymore, they try for a level 3 all in. I think Fizz is an important champ to check lolnexus during the loading screen and see what their runes/masteries are. If they're going something cheesy like 30/0/0 with red elixir, Q-W is probably how you want to go. If they open 21/9/0 and start flask, the guy is probably assuming that he can't win the early lane and just wants to survive till 6, and you can play normal.
I think there are a few champs you could probably take Exhaust against if you have faster fingers than I do. The issue is you need to hit the Exhaust on them before their burst happens. Talon the burst is really quick, and I am just not mechanically fast enough to click Exhaust on them before it happens.
With Zed it's reeeeeeeeally easy because there's nearly a full second before he starts his burst.
In general though I have never really had problems with Talon using Barrier. I have never really been sure why people say it's a hard matchup for Lux.
Hey, so I've been playing lots of games with Lux and now my win loss is meh.
Usually these scenarios have happened.
1. Me and my bot lane win so then we snowball into mid game really well. We can easily siege and I can easily get kills there. We then win the game by a huge margin.
2. I win or go even in lane, but bot lane loses lane and turret. Then the game usually drags on late game, where Lux seems to fall off. The high cd's and the MR stacking, and particularly Banshee's passive, seem to really negate Lux.
Also I'm having trouble snowballing my lead unless scenario I happens. In scenario II, I can't really roam bot.
How do you lane against Xerath without dying all the time? I feel like he does exactly what Lux does, except from longer range, more burst, faster skills, lower cooldowns, and gets mana back with his passive. I just get dominated in the lane (obviously I'm looking for something besides "dodge" his skills, I'm ok at it but against someone the same skill as me I'm only going to dodge so many q's before they start to add up).
Rush boots 2 straight after Chalice, take a mastery page with movespeed, dodge every Q.
Xerath does more damage than Lux, but his spells are also easier to dodge.
I know it's not what you want to hear, but that's the reality of it.
Fast boots 2 does help a lot though, and Lux can really rush Sorc shoes after Chalice just fine because Mpen is a good source of damage for her (if there were better Mpen items she'd probably take them.) Take Heal, you can use it to outrun his ult charges.
Remember that if you've got blue buff or extra mana, you can throw a shield out while he's charging his Q to soak up the damage if you don't dodge it.
Also, he's easier to gank than you are, so your joonglar can help.
It's also worth noting that I haven't played Lux v Xerath since Chalice/Athenes had their MR cut, and those nerfs might be making this matchup harder than I remember.
On August 15 2014 02:48 nobodywonder wrote: Hey, so I've been playing lots of games with Lux and now my win loss is meh.
Usually these scenarios have happened.
1. Me and my bot lane win so then we snowball into mid game really well. We can easily siege and I can easily get kills there. We then win the game by a huge margin.
2. I win or go even in lane, but bot lane loses lane and turret. Then the game usually drags on late game, where Lux seems to fall off. The high cd's and the MR stacking, and particularly Banshee's passive, seem to really negate Lux.
Also I'm having trouble snowballing my lead unless scenario I happens. In scenario II, I can't really roam bot.
I'm not sure that I can really say much to this, since it's all very general stuff. Post a replay!
Late game Lux is all about good shields. Your shield is retarded OP when you're at full items. Make sure you're shielding every time it goes off cooldown and getting whoever the enemies focus target is.
It's true that in late game you can't one shot people anymore usually, so at that point you stop trying to get picks in sieges, you just throw E out on cooldown and try to hit somebody to soften them up, and in the teamfight try to get your spells to hit as many people as possible.
The way I like to do sieges as Lux is like this. If I know I can instakill a target, I'll throw Q's on cooldown and save E. If a Q hits, combo.
If I know I can't instakill a target, I'll throw E's on cooldown just to hit people and soften them/pop banshees, and save Q.
What do you think of getting CDR boots? It gives 40% CDR all the time and the magic pen doesn't feel that important if you don't get it really early (I'm a sucker for getting my boots upgrade very late).
For lux I go for 40% CDR when not laning vs an ap allin champ. I'll take 7,5% cdr from blue runes & 2,5% from masteries. When playing vs ap allin, i take 5% cdr from masteries to hit 35% cdr (with blue+athene).
In both of these cases the extra CDR on boots is a waste, while the magic pen from boots is massive for a mage early/mid game.
@ nobodywonder If your aim is good with lux ult you should pinkward your lower jungle entrance, so you're free to move into sniping position unseen. This way you can put down massive influence on botlane even when it's losing. Be sure to ward agressively as well. Against most midlaners you have a gigantic jungle-assist edge because you push good & can reach jungle fights really fast (cus massive range). Don't be afraid to waveclear with ult just so you can assist your jungler if needed, if they opposing mid wants to follow you can zone him with e (he loses cs) and jungle fight will be 1v1 ; and when opposing mid stays to farm wave you provide 3 spells (vs none of opposing mid, since he's farming).
Like stated by Ketara (in different words), your damage can only carry teamfights so long. If you (/your team) fails to win before about 30 minutes your most important spell for teamfights will become your shield. Being able to properly position yourself to maximize the amount of shields on your team is key.
True story, I have not lost a game with Lux since she got buffed. I'm sure I will now that I've bragged about it.
The passive buff is really interesting. Early game and late game it's a big damage increase, but in the mid game, like the level 8-12 area when you're done with Athenes and before you get Deathcap, your passive damage is about the same as it was before.
I am especially noticing the buff vs. Ziggs. I used to think that Ziggs had the edge in the early game vs. Lux, but now I think Lux does. Haven't gotten to play Lux vs. Ori since she lost all that early AD yet, but I imagine it'll be similar.
Okay so, watching your Lux vs. Zed game. Here are my notes. I'm gonna bold the ones that I think are more important.
#1 - You don't want to take Heal against Zed, you want to take Exhaust, or at least Barrier.
#2 - When leashing the way you did where you throw an E and just leave it on the ground, you can actually cast it as early as 1:49, and it will still hit the camp. You cast it at about 1:52, those extra 3 seconds could have given you an extra auto on Zed.
#3 - At level 2 when Zed goes in on you and you snare him, you walked away from him while autoing. In this situation you have a guaranteed kill on him, you do not want to be backing away. You want to move towards his tower and towards your own minions.
If he autoattacks you while you're standing inside your minion wave, all your minions will retarget him and he's going to die. If he wants to retreat he has to move through you and you can stutter step and auto him the whole way, and he's still going to die. He ended up getting out with _9_ HP, when if you had moved to cut off his escape you likely could have killed him and gotten his flash without using any summoners. Honestly one additional minion hit and Zed would have died, which you could have easily positioned to make happen.
You need to be aggro in this matchup. You destroy Zed at level 2, and it was retarded of him to try to fight you. Punish it.
#3.5 - Again, when Amumu came to gank, you could have easily killed Zed and gone 1 for 1 with first blood if you were playing more aggro.
#4 - Personally, I would have bought a single mana potion when you based after killing Zed. There's a time period when you're both at about half health (before the Fiddle gank) where he could have all inned and killed you and you didn't have enough mana for a full combo to make it 1 for 1.
I don't like the tear buy, but I'll call that preferential. Personally I would have gone straight for armguard so that you can beat Zed 1v1. Zed fights you in lane by threatening to all in. If you have a defensive summoner and an armguard + 2 dorans, if he all ins you will win the duel and kill him without dying. This pretty much removes all his lane pressure and lets you play aggro and bully him.
With a tear you're forcing yourself into a passive playstyle.
#5 - Again, at 12:15 you have Zed real low, hit him with an E and back away. His flash was just used, if you had moved forward instead of back you could have flash auto'd him for a kill.
#6 - In the following fight at dragon your ult is up but you dont use it. Could have maybe killed Blitz with it, it would have been close. Using it to clear mid after I think is fine though.
It is worth noting here that if you had gone for Morello instead of the Tear, and had Forbidden Idol instead of that Tear for that fight, your spells would have been up fast enough in that fight to likely save Fiddle and get a double. At the very least you would have def. killed Blitz and gotten away.
Honestly at this point you have missed out on about 3 kills just from not thinking you're as strong as you are, which skews the rest of the replay for me because you're a full 1000 gold behind where you could be. On top of that the replay bugged for me around this time and I can't pause it or see your cooldowns anymore, so I'm just gonna rush through the rest.
I feel like the blind ult in the 19:30 fight is bad. You could have done the same ult when they engaged after dragon and it probably would have turned the fight. They lined up and you could have hit all 5. Even after that Zyra got a 5 man knockup, either of those times would have been better. You're also just really feeling your lack of mana regen itemization in this fight in general. (Take mana regen masteries over movespeed)
I think you ult too early in the next big fight too. You only hit two people. You've got Zyra, Fiddlesticks and Ashe, wait for a big target to get CC'd. At least wait for Fidd to get into their team and apply his passive.
Going Deathcap before Void Staff with the build you're doing is bad. You don't get Void till 39 mins. Diz vrybad.
You derp hard on your ult in the baron fight at 37:30 and it's kind of a big deal.
Eventually what costs you guys the game is basically just trying to end when you can't. But a lot of these fights are really close. I think stronger itemization, 1000 extra gold from early game kills, and better ults would have turned several of them and changed it from a close game to a clear victory.
I think Athenes > Deathcap is probably still best. As to your question, the guide is up to date.
Morello is more of an option now, but I think Athenes is still better. The sad thing is even with Athenes so nerfed, it's still basically a required item vs. AP's.
Chalice + Morello is strong if you don't open Dring, but if you do you don't have enough item slots to go Chalice+Morello.
Okay so, watching your Lux vs. Zed game. Here are my notes. I'm gonna bold the ones that I think are more important.
#1 - You don't want to take Heal against Zed, you want to take Exhaust, or at least Barrier.
#2 - When leashing the way you did where you throw an E and just leave it on the ground, you can actually cast it as early as 1:49, and it will still hit the camp. You cast it at about 1:52, those extra 3 seconds could have given you an extra auto on Zed.
#3 - At level 2 when Zed goes in on you and you snare him, you walked away from him while autoing. In this situation you have a guaranteed kill on him, you do not want to be backing away. You want to move towards his tower and towards your own minions.
If he autoattacks you while you're standing inside your minion wave, all your minions will retarget him and he's going to die. If he wants to retreat he has to move through you and you can stutter step and auto him the whole way, and he's still going to die. He ended up getting out with _9_ HP, when if you had moved to cut off his escape you likely could have killed him and gotten his flash without using any summoners. Honestly one additional minion hit and Zed would have died, which you could have easily positioned to make happen.
You need to be aggro in this matchup. You destroy Zed at level 2, and it was retarded of him to try to fight you. Punish it.
#3.5 - Again, when Amumu came to gank, you could have easily killed Zed and gone 1 for 1 with first blood if you were playing more aggro.
#4 - Personally, I would have bought a single mana potion when you based after killing Zed. There's a time period when you're both at about half health (before the Fiddle gank) where he could have all inned and killed you and you didn't have enough mana for a full combo to make it 1 for 1.
I don't like the tear buy, but I'll call that preferential. Personally I would have gone straight for armguard so that you can beat Zed 1v1. Zed fights you in lane by threatening to all in. If you have a defensive summoner and an armguard + 2 dorans, if he all ins you will win the duel and kill him without dying. This pretty much removes all his lane pressure and lets you play aggro and bully him.
With a tear you're forcing yourself into a passive playstyle.
#5 - Again, at 12:15 you have Zed real low, hit him with an E and back away. His flash was just used, if you had moved forward instead of back you could have flash auto'd him for a kill.
#6 - In the following fight at dragon your ult is up but you dont use it. Could have maybe killed Blitz with it, it would have been close. Using it to clear mid after I think is fine though.
It is worth noting here that if you had gone for Morello instead of the Tear, and had Forbidden Idol instead of that Tear for that fight, your spells would have been up fast enough in that fight to likely save Fiddle and get a double. At the very least you would have def. killed Blitz and gotten away.
Honestly at this point you have missed out on about 3 kills just from not thinking you're as strong as you are, which skews the rest of the replay for me because you're a full 1000 gold behind where you could be. On top of that the replay bugged for me around this time and I can't pause it or see your cooldowns anymore, so I'm just gonna rush through the rest.
I feel like the blind ult in the 19:30 fight is bad. You could have done the same ult when they engaged after dragon and it probably would have turned the fight. They lined up and you could have hit all 5. Even after that Zyra got a 5 man knockup, either of those times would have been better. You're also just really feeling your lack of mana regen itemization in this fight in general. (Take mana regen masteries over movespeed)
I think you ult too early in the next big fight too. You only hit two people. You've got Zyra, Fiddlesticks and Ashe, wait for a big target to get CC'd. At least wait for Fidd to get into their team and apply his passive.
Going Deathcap before Void Staff with the build you're doing is bad. You don't get Void till 39 mins. Diz vrybad.
You derp hard on your ult in the baron fight at 37:30 and it's kind of a big deal.
Eventually what costs you guys the game is basically just trying to end when you can't. But a lot of these fights are really close. I think stronger itemization, 1000 extra gold from early game kills, and better ults would have turned several of them and changed it from a close game to a clear victory.
Lemme know if this advice helpsu
Yeah, this definitely helped a lot. I realize now that I should be more aggressive in asserting myself in lane and getting kills. The problem is usually I'm really afraid of the jungler, especially ones with good gap closers, so I don't push too far...
I go tear usually vs AD mids, because I saw Froggen build tear when he played Lux. However those videos are really old. I guess tear does delay the mid-game power that Lux can abuse.
Yeah, I also feel that I need to be more patient with my ult to hit more people. I used to have the urge to snipe people to in teamfights, but it seems it is more important to do as much AOE as possible.
For masteries I do have the 3 points in the mana regen, and 1 pt in the movement speed.
On August 22 2014 01:15 Ketara wrote: Hey so, I'm trying to get videos of pro games with Lux in them, esp from season 4.
I put up the ones that I know of in the videos section, but if anybody else knows of any more, can you point them out? Thanks.
I don't know any pro games with Lux other than the ones you listed, but here's some solo queue games you could put.
Personally I use mana regen glyphs vs. ADs. I think mana regen gives you more pressure than AP, especially in the early game where runes matter the most.
There are a couple lanes where I like AP/level blues still. Mostly vs. APs where you can bully them but they can't bully you back or have difficulty doing so, such as say Mordekaiser or Swain. I might go for flat APs over AP/level these days though, since with the buff Lux's level 2 is really really strong now.
Also honestly, don't be so afraid of the jungler. In that Zed game when he went on you at level 2, if Amumu was there as well he also would have been level 2 and you likely could have doublekilled them.
Lux level 1-3 is a strong lane bully, it's 4+ where her power starts to slow down. You want to be dominating the lane 1-3 in the vast majority of matchups. The only things that outbully you at that stage are like, Pantheon/Annie/Syndra/etc. Even Ziggs pretty much goes equal with you now.
This is such a great guide and a great thread, Ketara. I've been playing a little Lux whenever I get mid lane, and despite my unfamiliarity with the matchups and the lane in general, I always win lane and I think it's thanks to all the time I've spent reading this thread out of curiosity.
Last game I got the j4 matchup and I was pretty worried about it. But I poked as much as I could for the first few levels (he pokes back surprisingly well) and at level 3 he all-ins in the middle of my creep wave. I just stood my ground and killed him with plenty of health to spare. I had just read your post about not underestimating yourself early game and I know how strong minions are early game. From there I carried the game and killed him a few more times and turned some bad fights around at bot lane with my ult. Fast sorc boots helps a lot with side stepping his EQ.
Anyway, thanks again from a young Lux! No matchup is impossible :D
On August 23 2014 00:32 Ketara wrote: Show me the masteries you're using, if you could.
Personally I use mana regen glyphs vs. ADs. I think mana regen gives you more pressure than AP, especially in the early game where runes matter the most.
There are a couple lanes where I like AP/level blues still. Mostly vs. APs where you can bully them but they can't bully you back or have difficulty doing so, such as say Mordekaiser or Swain. I might go for flat APs over AP/level these days though, since with the buff Lux's level 2 is really really strong now.
Also honestly, don't be so afraid of the jungler. In that Zed game when he went on you at level 2, if Amumu was there as well he also would have been level 2 and you likely could have doublekilled them.
Lux level 1-3 is a strong lane bully, it's 4+ where her power starts to slow down. You want to be dominating the lane 1-3 in the vast majority of matchups. The only things that outbully you at that stage are like, Pantheon/Annie/Syndra/etc. Even Ziggs pretty much goes equal with you now.
The one shot caster minions at level 9 timing for Lux is really sketchy. It depends heavily on how well you're farming and how fast you can buy AP, and it's unfortunately very possible to be put in a position where your E gets casters down to less than 5 HP.
I am pretty interested in scaling AP in a lot of lanes these days since the buff. But against ADs I'll always take Mp5 runes now, because the build I use (2 dorans into armguard into morello) requires it.
Dring vs. Cloth Armor Basically what I'm interested in is what's better in an early all in situation. I'm assuming 21/9 masteries here, and level 2 since most all in fights happen at at least level 2.
So, for EHP Lvl2 with Dring: 1408 with shield, 1167 without shield Lvl2 with Cloth: 1474 with shield, 1219 without shield
So basically, assuming that your opponents damage is all physical, Cloth Armor is better against an early all in than a Dorans Ring, but not by too much, and since it requires more early game potions, it's more efficient to open Dring.
Personally, I'm going to start opening Dring in AD matchups unless it's something where I feel like an early dive is really likely (lets say we've got an enemy Xin Zhao mid and Shaco jungle)
Dring vs. Flask This one is going to be harder to figure out just with math. Basically what I want to see here is how long you have to be in the lane before a Dring out-regens a flask. I'm assuming 21/0/9 or 24/0/6 masteries with this.
This one got long and boring as fuck, so I'm gonna spoiler the details and TL;DR it.
Assuming 10CS/minute, dring+2 start gives you 390 HP and 1.432 mana per second. I'm assuming 10 CS/minute because that's a good goal to have, basically. It means you miss about 1 CS per wave.
What I want to look at is mana regen, so first we need to get the HP values even. Assuming that the difference in HP between the two is worth about 2 shields, I'm going to add 100 to the effective amount of mana flask+3 gives you, so 408 mana. I actually think this is a little unfair in favor of Dring because it assumes you get 100% use out of both shields. More on that in a bit.
This means it takes about 285 seconds of laning for Dring to go even in regen. So, you break even at about 6:45 game time.
The next big question here, if we want to figure out which opener is better, is how much is each point of mana worth? This is where shit gets kinda theoretical.
Looking at your E, which is your most often used spell, it costs an average of 85 mana during this time (70+85+100/3). Your AP ratio on it is effectively 0.8, so the 15 extra AP from Dring gives you 0.14 more damage per point of mana spent.
So basically, with a Dring, every 7 points of mana you spend is worth about 8 points of mana with a flask. This is assuming you never miss spells, but it's also discounting your Q and W which are both more mana efficient than E, so for the sake of keeping things simple I'm going to assume these two things cancel each other out.
(Note that before the buff it was more like every 10 points of mana you spent with Dring was worth 11 with Flask)
So, just counting the Dring/Flask regen, this adjusted number means it takes 250 seconds for Dring to give more regen (1.432 * 1.14 = 1.632, 408/1.632 = 250). Pre buff this number would have been 259 seconds.
So, now I want to figure out what these seconds values mean. At what point do I hit each level? So lets go into a custom game and figure that out.
You hit levels at these timings: Level 2 - First minion of the second wave (2:30 approx) Level 3 - Third minion of the third wave (3:15 approx) Level 4 - Last minion of the fourth wave (4:00 approx) Level 5 - Fifth minion of the sixth wave (5:00 approx) Level 6 - Third minion of the ninth wave (6:15 approx)
The next question is how much does my base mana influence this. At the moment Dring is out-regenning Flask just before you hit level 6, so I'm going to assume 5 levels worth of base mana and base regen here.
Your base mana pool up to level 5 is 500. Effectively 570 with Dring (550 before the buff).
Now our break even point is about 207 seconds (5:27). You're still at level 5 at this point.
But, how much does base mana regen fuck with this? You've got 9 base mana regen, plus 0.6 per level. Your 9 base mana regen gives you another 48 "effective mana" by the time you hit level 5, by our reasoning. The 0.6 per level gives you about another 10 "effective mana" by level 5.
Now it's only taking 171 seconds for Dring to outscale Flask. This is actually just before you hit level 5.
TL;DR
So, BASICALLY, Dring outscales flask at about level 4 now, and before the buff didn't until you were into level 5. Basically. This math is nowhere near exact because I'm assuming a lot of variables (not the least of which is how good your CS is which will vary on the player and the game).
However, the raw stats on Dring makes it stronger at levels 1-2 for sure, and likely level 3 as well. Flask doesnt' become stronger until you've used up its charges, basically.
So before the buff Dring would have been stronger in the level 1-2 area and Flask would have been stronger in the level 4-5 area. Now it's likely that Dring is stronger all the time as long as you're CSing well and hitting your spells. Dring is also a more efficient buy since you have to spend less on potions.
Personally, at this point I will always be opening Dring over Flask, unless I expect to be 1v2ing. If I expect to be 1v2ing I will still open Flask. This is because in a 1v2 I'll expect to be levelling slower, CSing less, and attacking the enemy duo less. I'll also probably take Teleport for a 1v2, so I'll be able to back and tele to my tower at level 3 or so and pick up more flask charges.
An interesting final note about this is that since the efficiency of Dring essentially depends on how well you're playing (how good your CS is and what percentage of your spells hit), the lower the level of play, the better Flask openers will be.
I ran through your masteries a bit, and see they differentiate quite a bit from mine. I'm going to list some different choices I made and the reasoning behind them, and would like to compare it with your reasoning.
* masteries
Offensive - 24-0-6 vs 21-0-9 I don't get exposed weakness & the weaving duo. Instead I get 3 points meditation, 1 point random(cus fuckit), 3 points insight, 1 point strength of spirit & runic affinity. Other masteries are the same.
Why: while the added damage is nice, lux needs blue buff for sustained sieges / pokewars. 20% longer before your push/poke drastically decreases in potency is invaluable. Summoner's insight is all about the cd wars in 1v1. I'm the kind of bitch that checks if the other person has it, and if he has ignite I try to force a summoner spell trade early, and look for an allin when barrier gets off cd. That's a 21 second window you have to abuse!
Defensive masteries - I'm too cocky with lux to take defensive masteries
* runes
I was going to do runes too, but then decided to play a game of lux. Will be back later for that!
Imo 40% CDR isn't really that useful from just runes, Athene's/Morello and masteries. It means that late game, things like blue pot and blue buff give you wasted stats. The 4% from masteries are fine, that plus 20% from Athene's (which I still buy every game, it's still way too good on Lux) is more than enough to survive and do well. I'd rather have a late game with scaling AP or MR blues, or survive lane phase because of MR blues, than reach a quicker 40% with scaling CDR that I'd probably have anyways but from other sources.
For CDR, you're getting 20% CDR from your regen item, and minimum 2.5% from masteries because it's required.
If you get more than 7.5-10% from runes or other itemization, you're wasting efficiency on blue elixirs, which are strong on Lux and you should be buying them religiously if the game goes into 40 minutes or so. So, basically, you don't want to be going much over 7.5% on her.
Since Lux's mana costs are so high, I don't like flat CDR runes. CDR is only helpful if you have the mana to support an increased number of spellcasts. While you have that after finishing Athenes, you don't beforehand. As such, I don't like flat CDR runes, why am I going to take runes I can't make any use of the first 15 minutes of the game? Scaling CDR runes give well over that 7.5%.
So for that last 7.5%, basically in the first part of the game you're getting blue buff. At end game you buy a DFG for your 6th item, and then cede blue buff to your jungler or ADC who at that point can make better use of it than you, and you're at 40% CDR. It's a pretty natural progression and it works well.
As far as masteries go. People have asked me why I take the masteries that I do a few times, so let me go through Schwopzi's points one by one, as well as some other masteries I've been asked about. Mastery math is one of my favorite nerdy things to do in LoL, so trust me that there is a lot of research behind this shit.
Exposed Weakness: This is literally the second strongest mastery in the offense tree, right behind Havoc at 21 points. You should always take this on every champion who is going at least 5 points in offense, no matter what champion it is. The reason why is because of how this mastery actually works, which is contrary to what the league wiki says but is very easy to go test in a custom.
Exposed Weakness increases your own damage.
So, for 1 point, you get a 1% damage increase. This would be strong even if that was all it was, but it's a 1% damage increase to both you and the rest of your team? That's great.
Exposed Weakness stacks with other champions Exposed Weakness.
Yes, that's correct. If all 5 people on your team have Exposed Weakness and all 5 tag an enemy with a spell, all 5 of you do 5% more damage.
Exposed Weakness affects lane minions, jungle monsters, and baron and dragon.
So it helps you CS to a degree, and if all 5 people on your team have it, your team does Baron and Dragon 5% faster.
Exposed Weakness procs on Lux's passive.
Lux's passive damage is coded as a spell, NOT as an on hit effect (more on this when I talk about Blade/Spell Weaving), which means when you tag somebody with a spell, and then hit them with an auto to proc your passive a second later, it extends the duration of the Expose Weakness debuff.
This mastery is ridiculously strong. You should always be taking it.
Blade and Spell Weaving:
These I think are not quite as clear cut as Expose Weakness. Basically they are stronger in the early game when you are going to be autoattacking a lot than they are in late game teamfights when you are going to be focusing on spells and positioning and not autoing often.
However, they are very strong for Lux in the early laning phase, particularly because of how they interact with her passive.
As I said before, Lux's passive is coded as a spell, not as an on-hit effect.
A Lux passive auto gives her one stack of both Blade and Spell Weaving at the same time.
Not only that, if you do a passive auto on somebody as Lux with the weaving masteries, the auto gives you a stack of blade weaving, which IMMEDIATELY increases the damage of the passive hit for that same attack by 1%.
So lets say at level 2 I hit somebody with a Q and do my Q>auto>E>auto combo.
I get a blade weaving stack for the Q.
Auto #1 is increased by 1% and gives a spell weaving stack. Passive #1 is immediately increased by 1% and gives a second blade weaving stack.
I pop the E, which is increased by 1% and gives a third blade weaving stack.
Auto #2 is increased by 3% and gives a second spell weaving stack. Passive #2 is immediately increased by 2%.
On top of that, that second passive hit refreshes my 3 blade weaving stacks, which gives me 3% bonus damage on all subsequent autos if I want to shield myself and keep trading.
The tooltip says that the weaving effect can't trigger multiple times in the same second, but this is bullshit, the above totally works. I think what it means is the same spell can't trigger it multiple times in the same second, like for Singed poison or whatever.
Basically, the weaving masteries are really strong on Lux in the early lane, which is when she has her highest bully potential. I take them because my strategy on Lux in almost every lane is I am going to bully and get a lead right at level 1, and maintain that lead throughout the game.
Another thing to remember about the offensive masteries is that % damage increases in League are all multiplicative, so the more of them you have the better all of them are. If you have 3% from Havoc, 3% from weaving, 1.5% from double edged sword and 1% from exposed weakness, the total isn't 108.5% damage, it's 108.75%. That's not a giant difference but it is something.
Sorcery
This mastery is not bad, it is just worse than the alternatives. Archmage, Blade/Spell Weaving, Double Edged Sword, Expose Weakness and Feast are all just better.
Feast
If you assume 10 CS per minute, Feast is giving you 2.5 HP/5 and 0.8 MP/5. Even if you say Butcher is worthless (It's not, it does help you CS) and Feast is effectively costing 2 points, that's 1.25 HP/5 and 0.4 MP/5 per point, so it's still 1.65x as efficient as the tier 1 regen masteries in Defense and Utility, both of which are on their own quite strong.
Feast is real strong. Take it in every game.
As for the utility masteries.
Summoners Insight
I feel like this mastery looks strong if you say "10% summoner spell Cooldown Reduction." Which is, in literal on paper terms what it does.
In practice that's not what it does.
Summoner spells have very long cooldowns, and you're typically (at least on Lux) using them in a reactionary way. You're using them as a response to your opponent doing something, rather than just walking into lane and flashing on top of somebody the way an Annie or a Galio might.
So, basically, if your Barrier comes up 21 seconds faster than the other guys, the only time these 3 mastery points matter is if you use that Barrier in that 21 second window. What this means is I don't like to look at it as "10% cooldown reduction", I look at it as creating a window in which these points are VERY strong inside that window, and do absolutely nothing outside of it.
But because Lux bullies by safe harassment and never actually needs to go all in in order to fight, and only goes all in as a response to her opponent, it is difficult to create that magic window where you use Barrier inside that 21 seconds. Sure you can walk up and auto the crap out of the guy and use Barrier, but on Lux you don't actually need to do that. You can harass them safely, and if you're strong enough to kill them with a spell combo, you can do it from outside their range in most cases.
I think Summoners Insight is very strong on champions who can make big plays IF they have flash, such as Annie and Galio. But on Lux I don't really see the point over putting more points in offense, thereby increasing her damage and bullying potential at all stages of the game. It's important to remember that you spent 3 points on this shit, not 1. I'd rather have 5% more AP all the time than that 21 second window.
Runic Affinity
Basically, this mastery is strong if you're getting blue buffs, and if you're not getting blue buffs it's not. Also, since I don't like Summoners Insight, this mastery costs more than one point. Since I only see 6 useful points in Utility for Lux, this mastery costs more like 3 points to take.
On top of that, I'm not going to have a blue buff for the first 7 minutes in the game, and once I'm at 6 items I'm going to be letting the jungler or ADC take blue buffs. So I'm only actually using this mastery for what, maybe 75% of the game. And even in that time, I might have a jungler who is hogging blue buffs, or an enemy jungler who is stealing mine.
So I just don't take it. I'd rather have a mastery point that is guaranteeing me a benefit at all stages of the game, such as another point in the Offense tree. If I was doing ranked 5's, I might take this, but in solo queue I'm not going to.
Alchemist
Alchemist is just really strong, especially early in the game. 10% more regen from your potions is 30 HP in your initial lane potions. It takes 3 points to get that much HP from the defense tree. It loses its strength late in the game, but since you should be buying a Flask in Lux and using it religiously, and don't have item slot concerns and can generally keep that Flask until you start building your 3rd or 4th major item, I feel like this is strong.
It's not as strong as it was when Lux was opening Flask over Dring, but I think it's stronger than anything you'd get in Offense or Defense on a 1 point to 1 point comparison, so I'm going to keep taking it. The only thing I might take instead would be maybe a point in HP regen in the defense tree.
Strength of Spirit
This mastery gives Lux 1 HP/5 at level 1, and 3.75 HP/5 at level 18. It's just a really efficient buy for 1 point. Late in the game it's worth about 200 gold (200 gold for a mastery point is pretty good!), and if you look at initial laning, assuming you're in lane about 4 minutes before your first back, that's about 50 HP regenned from this 1 mastery point, which again took you 3 points in Defense to get. Essentially it is a strong, cost efficient early game mastery that also scales as you level.
Strength of Spirit (on Lux at least) is always better, because Recovery is 1 HP/5 and Strength of Spirit at level 1 is 1 HP/5 and then scales.
It's slightly different for different champs because they have different base mana pools, but on just about everybody with mana Strength of Spirit becomes better than Recovery by level 2-3.
This is not really surprising. Strength of Spirit is a tier 2 mastery with a prereq, so logically it should be slightly better.
Recovery is 2 HP/5 at level one, strength of spirit is 1 HP/5 at level one (for Lux). You don't get to 2 HP/5 from SoS until you reach 600 mana which with no mana items or runes isn't until level 7.
It does matter though because you want to look at it in terms of what you would reasonably be building.
Assuming that you want 24 points in offense, and assuming that you want 3 points in mana regen (otherwise you wouldn't put any points in Utility at all), you're left with 3 points.
If I go deeper into Utility, I can put one point in movespeed (Not exactly a bad point, especially against skillshot reliant champs) and then get Strength of Spirit and Alchemist.
Strength of Spirit is strictly better than Recovery. Alchemist is about the same in terms of HP regen but also gives mana regen, until late game where 1 HP regen starts to not mean much.
If I go for Defense, I get 2 points in Recovery and 1 point in Enchanted Armor or whatever the name is.
Basically, if you go 3 points in Utility, it's strictly better to go 24/0/6 than it is to go 24/3/3.
Ok, what you say makes perfect sense, I was comparing it in a general way (probably not the best idea in the Lux thread) like for example a support who might be going 0/9/21.
That one seems really hard. I didn't realize that his stats are just across the board higher than Lux's, which is kinda depressing.
His base HP, Mana, Mana Regen, AD, Armor and Movespeed are all higher.
His AP ratios are all higher.
His range is 25 lower but that's not enough to matter, and honestly it doesn't even make any sense for him to have a low AA range since he's supposed to be a long range, immobile mage.
It's something that really bugs me about Lux these days, her base stats are just absurdly low.
It's also something that bothers me about Xerath. I really dislike the Xerath rework, I feel like it really gutted what made him special and turned him into this super generic ranged mage with no identity. Sad day.
Now you understand my Xerath pain, he pretty much does most everything Lux does (minus her shield I guess) except better. I will continue to ban him whenever I play mid, in capable hands he's impossible to even fight against unless I get camped 24/7. /QQ
On September 01 2014 02:18 InfSunday wrote: Now you understand my Xerath pain, he pretty much does most everything Lux does (minus her shield I guess) except better. I will continue to ban him whenever I play mid, in capable hands he's impossible to even fight against unless I get camped 24/7. /QQ
When I play the B-string champs I feel this way against a lot of champions. 1v1 with no jungle presence or threat at all, who beats Zed? If he can spam aggressive shadows he will beat Lux every time. Same with Xerath and Syndra if they can play forward and spam you with their superior stats and mana sustain. Same with Fizz if he can troll poll aggressively.
These champs are balanced almost entirely on having no escapes or having to save their utility for escapes. If there is literally no pressure and they realize they can stand at the border of your turret for minutes on end with no risk of a gank then you better roam or outplay super hard.
I guess the good news is that the higher you go the less 0 interaction junglers you will run into. It isn't uncommon for me to get no ganks but it is uncommon for my jungler to not gank at all. At the end of the day I am okay fighting to go a little below even on Lux if my other lanes are getting good pressure. You will lose your 100-0 snipes until you catch up but you will still do competitive damage with a well placed ult.
On August 31 2014 14:53 Ketara wrote: And now I got to play Lux v. Xerath.
That one seems really hard. I didn't realize that his stats are just across the board higher than Lux's, which is kinda depressing.
His base HP, Mana, Mana Regen, AD, Armor and Movespeed are all higher.
His AP ratios are all higher.
His range is 25 lower but that's not enough to matter, and honestly it doesn't even make any sense for him to have a low AA range since he's supposed to be a long range, immobile mage.
It's something that really bugs me about Lux these days, her base stats are just absurdly low.
It's also something that bothers me about Xerath. I really dislike the Xerath rework, I feel like it really gutted what made him special and turned him into this super generic ranged mage with no identity. Sad day.
If xerath hangs real far back it's just a farm lane. But if he tries to poke with q, you can shield + e during charge and just wtf run at him to auto and win trades ezpz. It helps to try and dodge. Usually it turns into a farm lane really fast once I do that once or twice, because it's a fight you should be winning. Lvl 1/2 is kinda meh though.
About earlier, I actually gave your masteries a try! I lost the first game so obviously blamed the masteries., but played some more yesterday & today. I'm pretty sold on expose weakness, but am going back from the dangerous game & weaving masteries to runic affinity & fleet of foot/summoner insight (depending on matchup). I've had too many blue's expire sooner then I wanted in the last 3 games, leaving me in a situation where I couldn't do what I expected to do beforehand. The added lane bullying is nice if that's your play style, but a lot of times I hang back and just farm/harass with e 'cus I don't know where their jungler is. I can see it's virtue in lategame against tank heavy teams with lichbane though. All the other mastery choices are pretty much what everyone should pick imo.
edit: As to the above, how do you not run out of mana / die to minions early / straight up lose when you play so aggressively? Attacking him when he charges up seems good on paper, but he has a larger auto range, not mention three damage spells that are all easier to hit, do more damage and end up costing less mana because of his passive.
On September 01 2014 02:18 InfSunday wrote: Now you understand my Xerath pain, he pretty much does most everything Lux does (minus her shield I guess) except better. I will continue to ban him whenever I play mid, in capable hands he's impossible to even fight against unless I get camped 24/7. /QQ
When I play the B-string champs I feel this way against a lot of champions. 1v1 with no jungle presence or threat at all, who beats Zed? If he can spam aggressive shadows he will beat Lux every time. Same with Xerath and Syndra if they can play forward and spam you with their superior stats and mana sustain. Same with Fizz if he can troll poll aggressively.
These champs are balanced almost entirely on having no escapes or having to save their utility for escapes. If there is literally no pressure and they realize they can stand at the border of your turret for minutes on end with no risk of a gank then you better roam or outplay super hard.
I guess the good news is that the higher you go the less 0 interaction junglers you will run into. It isn't uncommon for me to get no ganks but it is uncommon for my jungler to not gank at all. At the end of the day I am okay fighting to go a little below even on Lux if my other lanes are getting good pressure. You will lose your 100-0 snipes until you catch up but you will still do competitive damage with a well placed ult.
The thing is that a) what? Lux can pretty easily beat Zed if the two are on even footing as long as she takes exhaust and b) she can survive things like Fizz/Syndra by just playing passively and farming with Q/W to keep safe. Xerath completely ignores any attempts to play passively with his gigantic range and insane clear. He doesn't need to play forward, he can still sit behind his minion wave and destroy you.
I'm playing this matchup at Plat I/Diamond V elo by the way, it's not like I or the junglers I'm with have no idea what to do. If anything I tell my junglers to stay away because they'll get nothing done besides possibly get me killed by forcing me to extend. Nothing short of a Vi ult will touch a Xerath who knows how to position well/ward in lane.
I just have a lot of QQ for this matchup in general, having to accept being poked out of lane and outscaled with no counterplay short of your opponent blundering is pretty ridiculous, I'm looking forward to any Xerath nerfs.
It annoys me more than a little bit that they nerfed Lux's movespeed from 340 to 330 in S3 on the grounds that a 1400 range caster shouldn't also walk so fast, and then released post-rework Xerath with 1400 range Q and 340 movespeed.
I just played lux vs talon and it didn't go well, but I'm positive it's because I didn't have mana regen glyphs. He was also very good at dodging the snare, but really it was the running out of mana early game that hurt me a lot. Easy opportunities for kills thrown away because I couldn't cast one more spell. I guess I learned my lesson :D
So I just played Lux as ADC. That fucking poke damage with a static shiv + E + passive is ridu-fucking-lous. Game didnt even last long enough for me to test out any other items since I just straight went Mejis + Occult and rolled in the assists since my team was trolling opponents harder. Yes I considered sheen but my team told me to go double stacks... In any case, would Tear be a good option for her as ADC considering the crazy mana cost? Or Shiv TF is better?
No I dont want to listen to the "100 things why lux isnt viable as ADC", her AA animation + orb walk is crazy smooth, and that + range is the only thing I need to hear about a champ to consider going ADC.
Ive seen Lux+Blitz duo on Challenger streams here tho and it seems to work out well, and all I remember was the shiv rush + occult
On September 05 2014 03:24 padfoota wrote: So I just played Lux as ADC. That fucking poke damage with a static shiv + E + passive is ridu-fucking-lous. Game didnt even last long enough for me to test out any other items since I just straight went Mejis + Occult and rolled in the assists since my team was trolling opponents harder. Yes I considered sheen but my team told me to go double stacks... In any case, would Tear be a good option for her as ADC considering the crazy mana cost? Or Shiv TF is better?
No I dont want to listen to the "100 things why lux isnt viable as ADC", her AA animation + orb walk is crazy smooth, and that + range is the only thing I need to hear about a champ to consider going ADC.
Ive seen Lux+Blitz duo on Challenger streams here tho and it seems to work out well, and all I remember was the shiv rush + occult
The thing about Lux is that she has extremely low attack speed growth, at 1.36% per level. Since most other ADCs grow at around 3%, and for the sake of simplicity assume all ADCs have the same innate attack speed, she will lose about 1.64 * 18 = 30% attack speed at level 18.
30% attack speed is worth about 900 gold, so if you think her snare and shield is worth it, go right ahead.
On September 05 2014 09:14 miicah wrote: She has a pretty bad Attack speed at level 18, but her AD is one of the highest of ADCs (only Draven is higher).
Yeah I noticed her AD growth being ridiculously high, so I tried going shiv>TF. Was interesting.
On September 05 2014 03:24 padfoota wrote: So I just played Lux as ADC. That fucking poke damage with a static shiv + E + passive is ridu-fucking-lous. Game didnt even last long enough for me to test out any other items since I just straight went Mejis + Occult and rolled in the assists since my team was trolling opponents harder. Yes I considered sheen but my team told me to go double stacks... In any case, would Tear be a good option for her as ADC considering the crazy mana cost? Or Shiv TF is better?
No I dont want to listen to the "100 things why lux isnt viable as ADC", her AA animation + orb walk is crazy smooth, and that + range is the only thing I need to hear about a champ to consider going ADC.
Ive seen Lux+Blitz duo on Challenger streams here tho and it seems to work out well, and all I remember was the shiv rush + occult
The thing about Lux is that she has extremely low attack speed growth, at 1.36% per level. Since most other ADCs grow at around 3%, and for the sake of simplicity assume all ADCs have the same innate attack speed, she will lose about 1.64 * 18 = 30% attack speed at level 18.
30% attack speed is worth about 900 gold, so if you think her snare and shield is worth it, go right ahead.
I go shiv TF and 14% on my runes, so the attack speed is actually ok. Almost her whole attack animation can be canceled once you have more than 1.5 tho so it was cool. Shiv TF also means Im going for a more bursty play style (corki, ezreal) so lack of AS late game is fine. I didnt pick her for the attack speed anyways
On September 05 2014 12:25 Ketara wrote: Mejai + Occult makes anything good if you get stacks.
Doesn't mean it's good.
You misunderstood me. Im not saying shes good because I went double stacks, Im saying I need suggestions on itemizations because I wasnt able to test it out due to the game I went double stacks. Shes still one of the better champs to go stacking items due to range and all the aoe utilities tho.
Right now Im stuck between rushing Shiv or getting a sheen first then get shiv. Ive tested out DRing start and it helps a lot, avarice into sheen feels odd tho. I guess its simply about how much gold I have on first back.
On September 16 2014 09:47 nobodywonder wrote: How is Spooky ghosts on Lux. I tried it as the 6th item and it's good for scouting and helping clean up fights.
I have tested this pretty extensively as an alternative route to 40% CDR and I don't think it really works. As far as builds go I find Lux more restricted than most. Chalice->Dcap->void staff is the progression used nearly 100% of the time with boots and maybe armguard worked in against AD lanes. With Sorc/chalice/Dcap/void/hourglass you will have a little over 500 AP which is plenty and the super end game utility of the spooky ghosts is not surpassed by the utility of banshees. I would even go so far as to say lich bane or liandry's are better 6th items if you want to go crazy with a full AP build and I really dislike both on Lux.
As a disclaimer, I value hitting 40% cdr early very highly on lux. Pushing 10% cdr onto my 5th or 6th item made a huge difference in how I felt in early/mid game skirmishes (assuming you don't want to waste the stat). With my current setup I run 15% scaling CDR on runes so at lvl 6+ I have 5% from masteries, 5-15% from runes, 20% from chalice and 10% from blue pot/buff. The longer the game goes, the less reliant you are on blue buff for 40% which feels great.
Just my opinion though and Im not challenger or anything. Faker goes mejai's second in every lux game he plays and I don't subscribe to that either
On September 16 2014 09:47 nobodywonder wrote: How is Spooky ghosts on Lux. I tried it as the 6th item and it's good for scouting and helping clean up fights.
Basically what you want to ask is, what do I need for this game.
I don't like Spooky Ghosts as a pre-6th item, frankly. Back when it also gave MR I did like it as an emergency MR item if you're getting wrecked in lane by a Syndra or whatever, but it doesn't give MR anymore.
So, the way I like to do this is like this.
My ideal 6th item on Lux in a perfect game is Deathfire Grasp. So when I want to deviate from DFG, I'll compare what I'm getting to DFG.
DFG gives me 120 AP, 10% CDR, and an active that is usable but not amazing on Lux.
Ghosts gives me 80 AP, 10% CDR, and spooky ghosts.
In general when I deviate from DFG already it's for either Randuin or Banshee (typically Banshee), so since Spooky Ghosts is so similar I'm assuming that I don't think I need a big tank item for this game. 40 AP is nice for DFG, but it's not game breaking. It's a small enough difference that if, for this game, I really really want the Spooky Ghosts active, it'd be fine.
So, in what kind of game do I really really want the Spooky Ghosts active?
#1 - If vision is super important in this game. Maybe our support is terrible and doesn't ward. Maybe their support is amazing and clears everything. Maybe we're fighting over baron and in the jungle a lot.
#2 - If slows are really good against the enemy team. Do they have somebody who is getting into the back line that I can't really kill and need to help CC for my ADC, somebody who is vulnerable to slows, like a big Udyr or Garen?
#3 - If my teams playstyle is more about split pushing and getting picks, and less about big teamfights. Like maybe we have some cancer team comp like Tryndamere+Shaco and want to never teamfight and split all day. In this sort of a game I am probably shoving and defending sieges mostly as the Lux while my assassins go around making the plays. Spooky Ghosts can help them do that in ways DFG cannot.
Ultimately I think Spooky Ghosts isn't the ideal Lux 6th item for a standard game, but in the right circumstances I think it's good. The active is actually pretty good for her in duels because it helps you hit your skillshots. I've gotten it before and in the right game I'd do it again.
Ok I see. So what happened with the spooky fights was that I activated it after a teamfight where we killed two and lost none. It caught the Zed so Corki, and me gap-close/get closer to land skillshots and kill him. Their carries turn back for some reason and we kill them, We then could easily push for the win.
Although, I guess that simply in our game by the time I bought it, spooky ghosts didn't really matter since we were winning pretty hard. Our shield comp was just too OP.
Meh I guess in general I feel weird about getting the 6th item as Lux. Like the standard - Athene, Dcap, Zhonya, Void Staff and Sorc Boots are obvious items. The last 6th item is basically fairly situational.
On September 16 2014 15:07 ticklishmusic wrote: Don't bother with spooky ghosts, I also don't like 40% CDR on Lux cuz you can just blue buff/pot for the last little bit
Also korean challenger/d1 yoloQ goes snowball items pretty frequently iirc
Lux is a pretty good champ to go mejais on. You are ridiculously safe with your high range and shields. Once some teamfights start the stacks just keep rolling in. I guess if you are the kind of guy to pick up stack items, you can do it pretty well on lux
I've used Tear/Athenes/Morellonomicon all for mana regen
Tear is best if you end with Seraphs Embrace/Rabadons/Void Staff/Zhonyas/DFG/Boots which I find to be the strongest build. If you need MR Get Athenes Abyssal instead in there
Morellonomicon is good on her for the CDR/Grievous Wounds or w/e is a perk[icing on the cake] but I feel it is the weakest option of the 3 routes
Athenes is probably your best option. You can even sit on a Chalice and get Mejais. If you don't get Mejais early on, hell, pick it up at 25-30 minutes and you will definitely profit from all the assists you'll be getting through shielding people with your W. Just don't die too often, and preserve your stacks, and that shit turns cost efficient quickly as fuck on her. You can just snipe people all day at 40% CDR with your ult because Athenes literally will not let you stay under 100 mana even if you try so Final Spark people , minions waves, your jungler's big minion, whatever
Something like Chalice -> Mejais -> Rabadons -> Lich Bane is also really strong if you just want to burst the shit out of people and sit in lane until you get 3k and straight up by an item that counters your opponents' build
Here's a short preseason Lux update. I'll probably be remaking the thread for S5 after preseason is over.
Basically Lux hasn't changed much with season 5. The big things that are changed are:
A - Athenes is worse. This is in general a nerf to Lux over other champions since she and Athenes are BFFs4eva, and it is going to lower her powerlevel in a lot of matchups relative to her opposing mid. I can understand why Riot nerfed Athenes, but I'm hoping they buff Lux to compensate for it somewhere down the line, because its a nerf that hits her very hard relative to other Mages.
B - Lux's stats are better. She got a little bit extra base mana regen and the changes to level 1 stats cushions the fact that her early level base stats were so awful a bit. That's cool and all, and in general I think she's actually stronger now vs. AD lanes where you wouldn't build Athenes, but the Athenes nerf is big enough that I think she's overall still worse in Athenes matchups.
C - The biggest change playstyle wise I think is that Mejais is now a totally viable item. Lux can buy it essentially at any point in the game after her big regen/CDR item if she thinks she's ahead and can get stacks without dying, and a high stacked Mejais makes an excellent 6th item. Essentially, Mejais is straight up better than it was in S4 until you've died twice with it. At one death it is still better than old Mejais, but from two deaths onward it is worse. And its gold efficiency at the initial purchase is much much better now. So if you're ahead and fighting a team that can't assassinate you very easily, buy it.
Do you think that Morello's and pots makes up the power of Athenes? Its always been more raw power(CDR/AP) than Athenes but with the MP/5 changes it competes pretty well in terms of sustain as well. Especially since lux is so safe with her shield she doesn't need the MR as much, it seems like you can save the 600 gold and spend that on pots/wards/other items and be better off
I would assume until Athene's isn't utter garbage you would go the Tear/Morello build. Like Ketera mentioned, you can add Mejai's relatively safely when appropriate.
Is Doran's Ring the only viable starting item for Lux now or is Flask still viable with the base stat changes?
Throughout most of season 4 I was running Flask start (into Athene's) with 9 utility in order to get the 10% extra duration buff for my flask. Bonus because chalice passive had synergy with the flask regen. But with the base stat changes and the change to Athene's regen (no more flask synergy) I'm considering starting Doran's Ring (x2) and going straight into Morello's.
Looking just at Lux's base stats, the mana regen from Athene's vs Morello's breaks even at around 50% of your mana pool, which favors Athen's whenever you are below 50% remaining mana.
These are the two build paths I'm considering for Season 5:
Mid-game power spike: 21-9-0 Mastery, Flat AP glyphs, Doran's Ring (x2) > Morellos. ~or~ Late game super spam: 21-0-9 Mastery, Scaling CDR glyphs, Flask > Tear > Athene's
Thoughts on these builds? What does everyone recommend after playing this pre-season?
Basically Flask vs. Dorans revolves around how much CS you expect to be getting.
For Lux, it's not clear. I've gone over the math for this a couple of times, and what it comes down to essentially is if you're getting Diamond league CS Dorans is a better opener, and if you're getting Silver league CS Flask is a better opener. Personally, I am opening Dorans in 1v1 lanes and Flask in the rare 1v2 lane.
As for how the preseason changes affect this, in general they make Flask a less attractive option for the following reasons.
#1 - With the base stat changes you have more mana and more mana regen early on. Having more AP makes each point of innate mana more valuable, since you are getting more damage dealt per point of mana spent.
#2 - The change to Chalice removes the Flask+Chalice synergy.
As to your builds, I still don't see any viable reason to buy a Tear on Lux, and I question whether or not 2x Doran + Morellos is enough regen. When I'm playing her I feel starved for mana now on 2x Dorans + Athenes, it seems to be much worse than it used to be. 1x Doran + Chalice + Morello I think is probably the most efficient build, late in the game selling the Chalice for a 6th item.
Disclaimer: I haven't played any ranked games with Lux this season but she was my most played mid-laner in season 4.
If you're sitting on 2x Dorans and mana starved, Athenes will provide better mana sustain than Morello with just champion base stats even though the Dorans regen doesn't synergise with Mana Font anymore. Since you feel you need more regen than just Athenes or Morello can provide we have suggested two options:
Lux's base mana @ lvl 11: 773 mana pool w/ 13p5 regen
1) Chalice + Morello: 150% base regen = 32.5 total regen + Mana Font (0 - 15.6) 80 AP 3100 Gold
2) Tear + Athenes: 75% base regen = 22.75 total regen + Mana Font (0 - 20.46) 60 AP 250 Mana (+stacks) 3420 Gold
Mana Font provides an additional 0.02 max regen per mana. At max stacks (+750 mana) Tear + Mana Font provides up to 15 extra regen.
IMO: Tear provides less regen but is offset by a larger mana pool that synergises with Athenes in the late game. Tear also provides a smooth late-game transition into Seraphs. The first build, however, allows for a stronger mid-game power spike. But I would argue that in order to capitalize on the mid-game power spike you shouldn't buy Chalice and instead invest that gold into Elixir of Sorcery for the extra AP+regen+True damage. Chalice+Morello just felt so slow to me in season 4 (I was building Athenes+Morello) which is why I switched to scaling CDR runes instead of Morello. I feel like the late-game build would be more reliable and if you wanted a mid-game power spike wouldn't you just build the new Mejais?
I have mained Lux for the past 4 months or so but have not been playing much in the pre-season.
I know many people disagree with me but I don't think any CDR item is good on lux now. Even when you do well morello feels terrible because the component value is like a bad Athenes with all the gold efficiency shoved into the final combine. I even tried going double morello because Voyboy was raving about it and 200% base mana regen starts out feeling super terrible and then becomes good very late after your base values scale.
What I have been running is 30% scaling CDR in runes and going Seraphs rush into Deathcap. At level 6 you will have 15% CDR and 25% with blue that scales into 35% late game capped by blue. The AP value of Seraphs will be less than a true tear stacker but you will still be getting about 100 AP and 50% base mana regen that will scale into late game, even if it takes you 5 more minutes to get the active than most. Late game just get blue or use the potion for 15 mana per 5.
The thing that really stinks is using up all of those rune slots. You really feel it for the first 5 levels.
This has been my go to in low D1 but like i said, its only been a game here and there.
I've always taken either Athenes or Morellos on Lux. I don't like any of the builds without one.
Why not take just 15% scaling CDR runes and rush Tear+Athenes for the extra synergy? The 5% from Masteries will top you out at 40% @ level 18. Then you can fill those other rune slots with something else you might need for the early game. Also the AP that Lux gains from Seraphs should top out around 120 (60+30+30) by level 18.
What do you gain by rushing Archangels into Deathcap instead of Tear+Athenes into Deathcap? Seraphs is a great late game item. Rushing Tear is good but I disagree about rushing for Seraphs on Lux.
On December 12 2014 06:25 Ghost-z wrote: I've always taken either Athenes or Morellos on Lux. I don't like any of the builds without one.
Why not take just 15% scaling CDR runes and rush Tear+Athenes for the extra synergy? The 5% from Masteries will top you out at 40% @ level 18. Then you can fill those other rune slots with something else you might need for the early game. Also the AP that Lux gains from Seraphs should top out around 120 (60+30+30) by level 18.
The problem is that going tear + athenes is like giving up on early and mid game. That is 3420 gold for 60 AP so you will be relying on base values for a loooooooong time. Seraphs does give 120 AP when fully stacked but you start with some stacks from the initial tear and it gives you 250 mana up front so you get about 500 mana from it when you combine usually.
I can't agree more with earlier posts that when Athenes was the one item sustain we all had to have it was LuX+AthenEsBFF4eva but now that no one item can realistically sustain you in the early/mid game I think my build is the closest thing to old Lux with the small added benefit that it scales well late. Sadly that later power is earned by being super squishy early.
Athenes and Archangels have the same cost = 2700 Gold.
You are trading 20% CDR, 25 MR, & Mana Font passive for ~500 Mana and ~25 AP. Assuming I also have Boots.1 + Tear and you already have Boots.2 I'm replacing your 15% scaling CDR quints with 15 flat AP quints.
How are you not giving up MORE early and mid game power? Especially when you are trying to farm/sustain off just a Tear. Are you saying Lux can sustain her mana better with Archangels rather than Athenes or Morello?
On December 12 2014 07:12 Ghost-z wrote: Athenes and Archangels have the same cost = 2700 Gold.
You are trading 20% CDR, 25 MR, & Mana Font passive for ~500 Mana and ~25 AP. Assuming I also have Boots.1 + Tear and you already have Boots.2 I'm replacing your 15% scaling CDR quints with 15 flat AP quints.
How are you not giving up MORE early and mid game power? Especially when you are trying to farm/sustain off just a Tear. Are you saying Lux can sustain her mana better with Archangels rather than Athenes or Morello?
I'm saying that the build works better in my experience yes. And when I say this I mean as a one item mana solution I find that you are better off right now just increasing your pool. None of the items come close to old athenes as far as keeping you in lane basically forever so I tend to lean on the fountain more. Ulting a double wave and backing is one of her standard moves after all.
I's also like to add that you get 8 mana back per spell cast with seraphs until you cap the item. Also you can do what you like with runes, I am just addicted to CDR generally.
tl/dr: Sustaining off of one item is not realistic anymore so I would rather double my mana pool and use the fountain when I don't have blue (which is .5% max mana per sec btw).
I was considering the fact that this change to mana regen might be a stealth Tear buff. Essentially Tear is about 5 mana regen with constant stacking (+25% base) but we all know Lux can't keep up with other Tear stackers. I still don't think Lux can sustain off double Doran's and a Tear alone. I'll be trying some builds with her tonight to see what works for me.
I'm wondering how a double Dorans into double Morellos build feels.
The first thing that I think is worth pointing out is that none of these proposed builds are lacking in CDR. If you're going for a Tear but taking CDR/level glyphs and quints, you're still getting CDR.
What Velociraptures build does is sacrifice tons of early game power for an amount of late game power. The finished Seraphs item is actually pretty strong on Lux. The big deal is that Tear is not strong on her. She has no special synergy with the item, while she does have synergy with Chalice, since that gives MR which Lux loooooooves.
The main thing I think is the runes prevent you from going aggressive in lane pre-6. Then buying Tear prevents you from going aggressive in lane for some time after that. There are some lanes where Lux basically can't go aggressive (Morgana!) and I think the merits of a Tear build are probably discussable there.
Personally, I think levels 1-3 are just about the best time in the game for Lux, and using a build that doesn't let her bully during that period is strange. I also think that the late game gains of going Seraph over say Morello (60ish AP and an active) are likely not worth sacrificing your laning pressure for the first 15-20 minutes of the game.
The thing about going Chalice+Morello is that it's just mathematically more efficient than going Athenes. If you look at it like 2x Doran+Athenes vs. Doran+Chalice+Morello, this is what you get in terms of differing stats:
2x Doran+Athenes - 90 AP - 120 HP - 50%+6 mana regen - 3500g
Doran+Chalice+Morello - 95 AP - 60 HP - 150%+3 mana regen - 3600g
The latter option is just better stats, and also kind of a better build up too (smaller parts).
So it seems to me that the real question should be is Doran+Tear+Morello enough. That's 300g cheaper but misses out on 25 MR and some early game regen (after you spend a while stacking it it's probably similar or even better than the Chalice).
As to that I honestly don't know. If you don't need the MR it's probably fine, but if you don't need the MR you can already go mana regen glyphs with 2x doran+Morello, which is a strong build and doesn't sacrifice any early game power at all.
Ultimately I really honestly think Lux is just having an identity crisis in season 5. We understand that just going Athenes is no longer satisfactory so we're trying to find somewhere else to go, but the reality of the matter is that there is nowhere else to go. We still want to be building Athenes we just can't justify it, and if we can't justify that, I'm not sure we can really justify playing Lux at all over some other champion who can make better use of Morello or Tear, such as Ziggs, Xerath or Orianna.
The first thing that I think is worth pointing out is that none of these proposed builds are lacking in CDR. If you're going for a Tear but taking CDR/level glyphs and quints, you're still getting CDR.
What Velociraptures build does is sacrifice tons of early game power for an amount of late game power. The finished Seraphs item is actually pretty strong on Lux. The big deal is that Tear is not strong on her. She has no special synergy with the item, while she does have synergy with Chalice, since that gives MR which Lux loooooooves.
The main thing I think is the runes prevent you from going aggressive in lane pre-6. Then buying Tear prevents you from going aggressive in lane for some time after that. There are some lanes where Lux basically can't go aggressive (Morgana!) and I think the merits of a Tear build are probably discussable there.
Personally, I think levels 1-3 are just about the best time in the game for Lux, and using a build that doesn't let her bully during that period is strange. I also think that the late game gains of going Seraph over say Morello (60ish AP and an active) are likely not worth sacrificing your laning pressure for the first 15-20 minutes of the game.
The thing about going Chalice+Morello is that it's just mathematically more efficient than going Athenes. If you look at it like 2x Doran+Athenes vs. Doran+Chalice+Morello, this is what you get in terms of differing stats:
2x Doran+Athenes - 90 AP - 120 HP - 50%+6 mana regen - 3500g
Doran+Chalice+Morello - 95 AP - 60 HP - 150%+3 mana regen - 3600g
The latter option is just better stats, and also kind of a better build up too (smaller parts).
So it seems to me that the real question should be is Doran+Tear+Morello enough. That's 300g cheaper but misses out on 25 MR and some early game regen (after you spend a while stacking it it's probably similar or even better than the Chalice).
As to that I honestly don't know. If you don't need the MR it's probably fine, but if you don't need the MR you can already go mana regen glyphs with 2x doran+Morello, which is a strong build and doesn't sacrifice any early game power at all.
Ultimately I really honestly think Lux is just having an identity crisis in season 5. We understand that just going Athenes is no longer satisfactory so we're trying to find somewhere else to go, but the reality of the matter is that there is nowhere else to go. We still want to be building Athenes we just can't justify it, and if we can't justify that, I'm not sure we can really justify playing Lux at all over some other champion who can make better use of Morello or Tear.
I disgree that rushing seraphs is destroying her early power. Component wise you are trading an 820 gold 30 ap/10% cdr component buy for a 840 gold 40 AP component buy and a 1000 gold 0dps/25 MR mana sustain buy for a 720 gold 0dps/250 mana sustain item. Unless you are saying that sacrificing the runes is crushing your early game (which you can totally do what you want with). Even with morellos most of the gold value is in the final combine so you have pretty much the same first back no matter which of the 3 you go.
Scaling CDR gets a bad rep because people see "scaling" and think late game. Pre-6 you are mana gated anyhow and lux has no problem going OOM before her first buy with zero CDR. At level 6 scaling runes give 2/3 of the benefit flat runes would give (which is when you get your ability most in need of CDR) and match at level 9 after which its all bonus.
Edit: For reference because I am currently watching it, Mancloud as a much better mid than me is level 9 at 12 minutes and can almost afford chalice at 14 mins (probably a little later than usual) with level 1 boots and one ring.
The only argument against rushing seraphs in my mind is if you feel like ap quints/mr blues are 100% required for levels 1-3 lux or if you feel the sustain items are actually good enough.
The point is that you shouldn't be comparing Seraphs to Athenes, because you shouldn't be getting Athenes anymore period.
If you look at Archangel + 2 Dorans vs. Doran + Chalice + Morello, and assume that your rune changes are justifying the CDR changes, this is what you get. In terms of showing a comparison, we'll look at scaling AP runes, and a comparison at level 12, which is where the scaling CDR will hit about 20%.
Doran+Chalice+Morello+APMR runes - 128 AP - 60 HP - 150%+3 +2% missing mana regen - 25 MR - 3600g
2x Doran+Archangel+Scaling CDR - 111-126 AP - 120 HP - 50%+6 mana regen + bunch o' mana - 3500g
So, by level 12 you're still at less AP, less MR and a ton less mana regen.
Pre 12 you have more CDR, more regen to use that CDR, a significant amount of MR (which is one of Lux's favorite stats) and more AP. It seems clear to me that a Chalice+Morello build would give you more combat stats in the level 6-12 range, while the runes and buildup will give you more power in the 1-6 range. The AP and regen are probably fairly equal at about level 13. You are basically trading power 1-12 for power 14-18 with a Tear build.
On December 12 2014 08:57 Ketara wrote: The point is that you shouldn't be comparing Seraphs to Athenes, because you shouldn't be getting Athenes anymore period.
If you look at Archangel + 2 Dorans vs. Doran + Chalice + Morello, and assume that your rune changes are justifying the CDR changes, this is what you get. In terms of showing a comparison, we'll look at scaling runes for AP and MR as well, and a comparison at level 12, which is where the scaling CDR will hit about 20%.
Doran+Chalice+Morello+APMR runes - 111 AP - 60 HP - 150%+3 +2% missing mana regen - 42 MR - 3600g
2x Doran+Archangel+Scaling CDR - 111-126 AP - 120 HP - 50%+6 mana regen + bunch o' mana - 3500g
So, by level 12 you're at less than 15 more AP (I don't think you have tear fully stacked at 12) for 42 MR and a ton of mana regen.
Pre 12 you have more CDR, more regen to use that CDR, a significant amount of MR (which is one of Lux's favorite stats) and likely more AP. It seems clear to me that a Chalice+Morello build would give you more combat stats in the level 6-11 range, while the runes and buildup will give you more power in the 1-6 range. You are basically trading power 1-11 for power 13-18 with a Tear build.
I guess the situation in my mind takes on certain dimensions you're not seeing as important.
1) On first back/component-wise, all three builds (seraphs/morello/grail) are the same. Where morello buys tome and charm (for example) seraph buys blasting wand and charm. I see these as essentially equal buys. This means that the only difference you will feel in play at all is from runes (12 mr and 15 AP) until around 14 minutes (athenes) or 12 mins (morello) at which point the game has developed to a state where MR is far less powerful of a combat stat for lux (in my opinion, you definitely feel the loss pre-6).
2) When I go 100% OOM I head back to base no matter which build I go. No single sustain item this season is of a quality comparable to old athenes so this is happening more no matter what. The more you base the less valuable mana sustain becomes and the more valuable mana pool becomes.
You're assuming a blasting wand and a faerie charm vs. a fiendish codex and faerie charm, when what you should be assuming is a blasting wand and faerie charm vs. a Chalice.
Chalice is more laning and teamfight power than Blasting Wand on Lux in all situations in all games ever period. Fiendish Codex + Faerie charm is also more power than Blasting Wand + Faerie Charm.
On December 12 2014 09:15 Ketara wrote: You're assuming a blasting wand and a faerie charm vs. a fiendish codex and faerie charm, when what you should be assuming is a blasting wand and faerie charm vs. a Chalice.
Chalice is more laning and teamfight power than Blasting Wand on Lux in all situations in all games ever period. Fiendish Codex + Faerie charm is also more power than Blasting Wand + Faerie Charm.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree (even if I have no idea what you are building that chalice into if not athenes or are you just delaying your morellos completion by 1000 gold and selling it later). On your first back you will probably be level 6-7 and in my opinion the value of defensive stats on lux strongly devalues as you move out of the standard laning phase. Any time I am not engaging in 1 on 1 lane trades with an AP mid or running for my life I would rather have AP. Getting meaningfully hit at all in team fights as lux should mean they went super duper hard on you and got punished (edit: I am refering to approximately even games here, there are always exceptions). I stand by my assessment that the rune MR lost pre 6 is a thing but after that I guess it depends on your take.
One thing I noted in a few games last night was that Dorans 2x with Athenes/Morellos felt like it was enough sustain as long as you kept farming the lanes in between fights. But once you stop farming the lanes or sell off your Drings you lose that extra mana regen and I started to feel a bit mana starved late game.
I did try a 2nd Morellos after selling off the drings but that game was already over so I didn't get a chance to fully test it in a match. I feel that Athenes is strictly worse than Morellos on all champions unless you have a mana item in your build. I didn't get any games in with a Tear yet so no comments there.
Also I've since realized that Chalice and Athenes provide the exact same mana regen........so I'm wondering about a Tear/Chalice early game build followed by a Deathcap rush for mid game power. Later it can be upgraded for the needed CDR.
Yes this is why you don't buy Athenes anymore. Athenes doesn't give you anything that you don't already get from Chalice. You spend 1700g for 60 AP and 20% CDR, you get the same shit for less by buying a fiendish codex and forbidden idol.
You may be right. I haven't tried your build yet but it is probably the best way if you only want 25% CDR (35 w/ blue buff).
I always want 40% CDR in my Lux build so I either get two big CDR items or the other 20% from Runes/Masteries.
Right now I feel like chalice isn't worth it unless you have another mana item. Which is why I want to try Tear/Chalice with 15% scaling CDR from Runes. But I'm going to bet that this is just too slow of a build for Lux. (probably perfect for Zigs)
My guess right now is that the Morello (2x) is going to end up being the best build for mages who want 40% CDR. You said that Lux is strong at levels 1-3 and this build doesn't sacrifice anything early game because you can start full AP or MR runes. It also has a very smooth build path and plenty of mana regen even after you sell off your starting Drings.
Pretty hilarious that Morellonomicons CDR isn't unique.
Double Morello is actually probably really good. If you're gonna go that route though I'd suggest going Morello + Codex and then finish the second Morello later in the game.
So, after some brainstorming and math, I'm going to recommend three builds. Tell me what you think of these.
Build 1 (vs. AP, early game focused) - flat AP quints, flat MR blues - Dring > Chalice > Morello - Dcap+Void+Zhonya + 6th item either finish Athenes for damage, or defensive item
Build 2 (vs. AD, early game focused) - flat AP quints, flat Mana Regen blues - 2x Dring > Morello - Dcap+Void+Zhonya + 6th item buy second Morello for damage, or defensive item
Build 3 (vs. either AP or AD, late game focused) - flat AP quints, scaling CDR blues - Dring > Tear > Morello - Dcap+Void+Zhonya+Seraph
On December 17 2014 06:14 Zdrastochye wrote: Mejais is utter trash now. Don't get it unless you're trolling.
I don't use it myself but to be fair, if you look at the last 100 games on probuilds like 80% of them use mejais. Losing half of your stacks on death just seems sooooooooo harsh to me.
It's so big and go home now on stuff like kat but on long range APs it's a buff imo. Splurge from a 100000 teemometers away like usual and don't go full dora la exploradora then proceed lose stacks for free like a moron.
Because Tear by itself will not give you enough mana regen, and relying on Mejais to get to 20 stacks is not only a bad decision, it takes too much time to get them for it to be "early".
First off, we want to point out that if you never die, Mejais is straight up better than it was before. This is pretty herp derp obvious, but it needs to be pointed out in order to look at the stuff following. It's better for three reasons.
#1 - You start with 5 stacks, meaning it's much more gold efficient on purchase.
#2 - It only takes 15 stacks to get the secondary effect (15% CDR) instead of 20.
#3 - On death stacks now always round up instead of rounding in weird crazy ways.
So the question is, at which number of deaths is the new Mejais worse than the old one? Here is the math on that.
At 1 death, old Mejais is better after 16 or more stacks. nMejai +16 stacks = 10 after 1 death. oMejai +16 stacks = 11 after 1 death.
At 2 deaths, old Mejais is better after 10 or more stacks. nMejai +10 stacks = 4 after 2 deaths. oMejai +10 stacks = 5 after 2 deaths.
At 3 deaths, old Mejais is better after 9 or more stacks. nMejai +9 stacks = 2 after 3 deaths. oMejai +9 stacks = 3 after 3 deaths.
At 4 deaths, old Mejais is better after 9 or more stacks. nMejai +9 stacks = 1 after 4 deaths. oMejai +9 stacks = 2 after 4 deaths.
At 5 deaths, old Mejais is better after 12 or more stacks. nMejai +12 stacks = 1 after 5 deaths. oMejai +12 stacks = 2 after 5 deaths.
And so on. After 4 deaths it starts to trend upwards because you end up at 1 stack with both basically no matter what.
So not only does new Mejais have more AP when you buy it and complete its stacks faster, it is also always equal or better than old Mejais no matter how many times you die until you've gotten at minimum 9 stacks with it. Even after 9 stacks you're likely only going to end up 1 stack lower than you would with old Mejais after a death.
On December 18 2014 01:54 Ketara wrote: Here is some Mejais math.
First off, we want to point out that if you never die, Mejais is straight up better than it was before. This is pretty herp derp obvious, but it needs to be pointed out in order to look at the stuff following. It's better for three reasons.
#1 - You start with 5 stacks, meaning it's much more gold efficient on purchase.
#2 - It only takes 15 stacks to get the secondary effect (15% CDR) instead of 20.
#3 - On death stacks now always round up instead of rounding in weird crazy ways.
So the question is, at which number of deaths is the new Mejais worse than the old one? Here is the math on that.
At 1 death, old Mejais is better after 16 or more stacks. nMejai +16 stacks = 10 after 1 death. oMejai +16 stacks = 11 after 1 death.
At 2 deaths, old Mejais is better after 10 or more stacks. nMejai +10 stacks = 4 after 2 deaths. oMejai +10 stacks = 5 after 2 deaths.
At 3 deaths, old Mejais is better after 9 or more stacks. nMejai +9 stacks = 2 after 3 deaths. oMejai +9 stacks = 3 after 3 deaths.
At 4 deaths, old Mejais is better after 9 or more stacks. nMejai +9 stacks = 1 after 4 deaths. oMejai +9 stacks = 2 after 4 deaths.
At 5 deaths, old Mejais is better after 12 or more stacks. nMejai +12 stacks = 1 after 5 deaths. oMejai +12 stacks = 2 after 5 deaths.
And so on. After 4 deaths it starts to trend upwards because you end up at 1 stack with both basically no matter what.
So not only does new Mejais have more AP when you buy it and complete its stacks faster, it is also always equal or better than old Mejais no matter how many times you die until you've gotten at minimum 9 stacks with it. Even after 9 stacks you're likely only going to end up 1 stack lower than you would with old Mejais after a death.
It's way better now. So much better.
Unless you counter-argue and say that dying in League with patch 4.20 is easier than it used to be pre 4.20 and therefore your risk losing stacks moreso with the current game.
In terms of the Lux guide thread, does anybody have any changes they'd like to see in regards to the formatting? Any sections that are hard to read / unclear / too full of bad puns?
On December 18 2014 13:43 Ketara wrote: Here's a question for you guys.
In terms of the Lux guide thread, does anybody have any changes they'd like to see in regards to the formatting? Any sections that are hard to read / unclear / too full of bad puns?
Any suggestions would help TYTY.
The pic you use for "itemization" under Support Lux makes me wanna punch a baby. 475g? C'mon man!
Hey, I wrote up a guide as to why I feel Lux is a perfect counter to assassins like Zed and Fizz but I'm not entirely sure where I should post it. Should I post it here? It's rather long and I kinda feel like it should have it's own thread of discussion.
I have to say, I don't agree with running hybrid pen on Lux. Your rationale makes sense, but I feel you should be able to last hit effectively without it. I also don't agree with ever running 24 points in the offensive tree. Other than that, it's a pretty good guide.
Have you ever thought about take 4 points in cdr masteries, 9 cdr glyphs, and 3 quints of cdr to start the game with 20%cdr? I find it helps quite a bit when you're in a lane where you'll need to farm a lot with your E.
On January 09 2015 18:27 Sonnington wrote: Have you ever thought about take 4 points in cdr masteries, 9 cdr glyphs, and 3 quints of cdr to start the game with 20%cdr? I find it helps quite a bit when you're in a lane where you'll need to farm a lot with your E.
Having not tried this, my immediate response to the idea is that it makes little sense to me to sacrifice Lux's early bully potential by giving up on damage, for CDR at level 1 that I can't use effectively because of mana constraints.
On January 09 2015 18:27 Sonnington wrote: Hey, I wrote up a guide as to why I feel Lux is a perfect counter to assassins like Zed and Fizz but I'm not entirely sure where I should post it. Should I post it here? It's rather long and I kinda feel like it should have it's own thread of discussion.
I have to say, I don't agree with running hybrid pen on Lux. Your rationale makes sense, but I feel you should be able to last hit effectively without it. I also don't agree with ever running 24 points in the offensive tree. Other than that, it's a pretty good guide.
Have you ever thought about take 4 points in cdr masteries, 9 cdr glyphs, and 3 quints of cdr to start the game with 20%cdr? I find it helps quite a bit when you're in a lane where you'll need to farm a lot with your E.
If you feel there's enough content that's not present here to warrant a standalone thread, feel free to post it. If it's brief enough to go into existing discussion, you can go ahead and post it in here, it's your judgment call. If you're unsure you can PM it to me to take a look.
Good content is always welcome here and champion-specific content doesn't have to be constrained to a single thread if there's enough new material.
On January 09 2015 18:27 Sonnington wrote: Have you ever thought about take 4 points in cdr masteries, 9 cdr glyphs, and 3 quints of cdr to start the game with 20%cdr? I find it helps quite a bit when you're in a lane where you'll need to farm a lot with your E.
Having not tried this, my immediate response to the idea is that it makes little sense to me to sacrifice Lux's early bully potential by giving up on damage, for CDR at level 1 that I can't use effectively because of mana constraints.
That's not unfair to say. I just don't see Lux as a good lane bully. I feel a lot or other champs can fill that role much better than she can. Lux has low base damages, high mana costs, and high cds. So if your goal is to bully the lane, CDR is not the way to go. But I've never played her that way and don't typically see people picking Lux for her bully potential. It's more for her safety in lane and scaling into the late game. Which is where the cdr really starts to shine.
CDR is a bad early game statistic, in general, on most mana champions.
Mana as a resource is generally very limiting early game, and not nearly as limiting late game. Cooldown Reduction as a statistic only provides an effect if you use your spell within the window that the CDR gives you.
What I mean is, if you have a spell with a 10 second cooldown and 10% CDR, the CDR only did anything if you use the spell again precisely at 9 seconds. If you wait a second to cast it, you had the same cooldown on the spell that you would have if you didn't have any CDR.
Very few mana based champions in the early game have the resources necessary to spam spells to a degree that would make CDR actually do anything as a statistic. On Lux specifically, you're more than likely only using E, and only using it maybe once per minion wave. To be honest, even if you could get 40% CDR from runes, they'd still likely have zero impact on early game Lux.
If you're running 20% CDR from runes and masteries, this is probably why you don't see Lux as a lane bully. You've invested what could be 13 MR, 15 AP and Blade/Spell weaving into stats that have zero impact on your early game, which will prevent you from winning trades with the majority of other mids.
Lux isn't a tier 1 lane bully like Syndra, but she's definitely a tier 2 lane bully. She can bully a very large number of champions, and this is one of the best things about her. She goes into lane level 1 as a bully, if she wins she can continue to bully, but if she loses she can alternate to safe farming no matter how far behind she is, which a lot of lane bullies can't do.
If you're going to do a CDR build, you're going to want to take CDR/level runes. Since CDR is useless early game on her anyway, there's no reason to not take the scaling runes. There's going to be a late game build in the season 5 version of the guide (which I'll be posting when preseason is over) that uses CDR/level glyphs, 5% CDR from masteries, and a build order that's basically Tear > Morello/Athenes > Archangel. I've been testing this build for the past few weeks and I think it can be good in certain matchups, although when I take it into a lane bully I tend to just get destroyed before I'm able to finish stacking the Tear.
As for Hybrid Pen, that's also going to change a bit in the season 5 guide, since minions don't have armor anymore. But that actually means I've gone from 7 hybrid pen 2 mpen to 9 hybrid pen, because hybrid pen is just better. When I'm running the Tear build I take mpen though.
Since I'm going to be posting a new version of this guide in a couple weeks anyway, IMO if you want you can just post what you've got here and we'll see what the differences are, and if we can find any improvements to either thread as a result.
On January 10 2015 03:49 Ketara wrote: In response to Sonnington:
CDR is a bad early game statistic, in general, on most mana champions.
Mana as a resource is generally very limiting early game, and not nearly as limiting late game. Cooldown Reduction as a statistic only provides an effect if you use your spell within the window that the CDR gives you.
What I mean is, if you have a spell with a 10 second cooldown and 10% CDR, the CDR only did anything if you use the spell again precisely at 9 seconds. If you wait a second to cast it, you had the same cooldown on the spell that you would have if you didn't have any CDR.
Very few mana based champions in the early game have the resources necessary to spam spells to a degree that would make CDR actually do anything as a statistic. On Lux specifically, you're more than likely only using E, and only using it maybe once per minion wave. To be honest, even if you could get 40% CDR from runes, they'd still likely have zero impact on early game Lux.
If you're running 20% CDR from runes and masteries, this is probably why you don't see Lux as a lane bully. You've invested what could be 13 MR, 15 AP and Blade/Spell weaving into stats that have zero impact on your early game, which will prevent you from winning trades with the majority of other mids.
Lux isn't a tier 1 lane bully like Syndra, but she's definitely a tier 2 lane bully. She can bully a very large number of champions, and this is one of the best things about her. She goes into lane level 1 as a bully, if she wins she can continue to bully, but if she loses she can alternate to safe farming no matter how far behind she is, which a lot of lane bullies can't do.
If you're going to do a CDR build, you're going to want to take CDR/level runes. Since CDR is useless early game on her anyway, there's no reason to not take the scaling runes. There's going to be a late game build in the season 5 version of the guide (which I'll be posting when preseason is over) that uses CDR/level glyphs, 5% CDR from masteries, and a build order that's basically Tear > Morello/Athenes > Archangel. I've been testing this build for the past few weeks and I think it can be good in certain matchups, although when I take it into a lane bully I tend to just get destroyed before I'm able to finish stacking the Tear.
As for Hybrid Pen, that's also going to change a bit in the season 5 guide, since minions don't have armor anymore. But that actually means I've gone from 7 hybrid pen 2 mpen to 9 hybrid pen, because hybrid pen is just better. When I'm running the Tear build I take mpen though.
Since I'm going to be posting a new version of this guide in a couple weeks anyway, IMO if you want you can just post what you've got here and we'll see what the differences are, and if we can find any improvements to either thread as a result.
Actually, I only have cdr runes on my NA account. On my EUW and LAN accounts(which I play more Lux on) I just use standard mpen, armour, mr/scaling AP, and flat AP. I still don't think she's a strong lane bully because of her cds, low base damage, and high mana costs. When I do get solo kills in lane it's usually because the enemy is making a lot of mistakes and I'm consequently punishing them. Not so much that I'm in complete control of the lane and bullying them around.
You're totally right on your analysis of cdr and I totally understand the advantages of scaling cdr to flat cdr. Maybe it's my ocd but I hate having an odd amount of cdr or not hitting a max potential of cdr.
I kinda question how anyone would let a Lux farm in lane with auto attacks. Maybe some champs like Annie or Katarina can't stop it, but most champs will simply outtrade you and provide relatively strong zone control. I always pick Lux into assassins and typically have to farm the same way PowerofEvil farmed vs Bjergsen at IEM San Jose. By throwing an E letting it explode after 5 seconds and immediately throwing a second E out. So in that way, the early cdr is definitely worth while.
The reason I don't like hybrid vs mpen should be obvious at this point. I have a passive playstyle. If you're autoing the enemy constantly with Lux and can make that work. Kudos to you. I find her early game to be when she's at her weakest and it's not worth the risk to be in auto range of the enemy when Lux scales into such a beast.
Lux's base damages are higher than most champions at low levels.
If you compare say, a level 3 Lux vs. other, similar "safe" mid lane mages (Ziggs, Xerath, Orianna) and about normal AP (40ish at 3), this is what you get.
Ziggs: 353 damage (figuring half a minefield hitting you)
Lux wins low level trades with most champions. While she doesn't do as much damage as the rest of these, her ridiculously overpowered 160 strength level 1 shield means she wins the trades overall. The other thing to remember is that in terms of trading successfully, per point 1 shielding is better than 1 damage, since its efficiency is multiplied by your resistances rather than reduced by theirs.
What tends to happen is in these examples, Xerath Orianna and Ziggs all have higher AP ratios than Lux, so after an item or two they start winning trades 1v1, but by then you're usually just farming and ignoring each other.
But before level 6, she wins a straight fight with any of these guys, although it's close enough that all you have to do is dodge one skillshot to put things in your favor. I call all of the above skill matchups, although pre 6 I'd say Lux has the advantage in all of them, losing that advantage after you both start getting items.
As for Assassins, Lux straight up beats most of them in lane. Stuff like Zed and Yasuo tends to be really easy for Lux these days. Yasuo was at times difficult before all those nerfs, now he's ezpz.
On January 10 2015 05:11 Ketara wrote: Lux's base damages are higher than most champions at low levels.
If you compare say, a level 3 Lux vs. other, similar "safe" mid lane mages (Ziggs, Xerath, Orianna) and about normal AP (40ish at 3), this is what you get.
Ziggs: 353 damage (figuring half a minefield hitting you)
Lux wins low level trades with most champions. While she doesn't do as much damage as the rest of these, her ridiculously overpowered 160 strength level 1 shield means she wins the trades overall. The other thing to remember is that in terms of trading successfully, per point 1 shielding is better than 1 damage, since its efficiency is multiplied by your resistances rather than reduced by theirs.
What tends to happen is in these examples, Xerath Orianna and Ziggs all have higher AP ratios than Lux, so after an item or two they start winning trades 1v1, but by then you're usually just farming and ignoring each other.
But before level 6, she wins a straight fight with any of these guys, although it's close enough that all you have to do is dodge one skillshot to put things in your favor. I call all of the above skill matchups, although pre 6 I'd say Lux has the advantage in all of them, losing that advantage after you both start getting items.
As for Assassins, Lux straight up beats most of them in lane. Stuff like Zed and Yasuo tends to be really easy for Lux these days. Yasuo was at times difficult before all those nerfs, now he's ezpz.
You're ignoring the laning dynamics. All those champs you mentioned should be able to outpush Lux without a problem. When there's more minions pushing in on you, you're automatically at a disadvantage in a fight due to minion aggro. So try factoring in minion aggro when you go for those 2 autos. Also factor in how easy it is to dodge a Lux Q or E and how much mana it takes to cast those abilities. Include into that the downtime of those abilities that allow the enemy to zone you due to Lux having higher cds. Factor in, like you mentioned, the AP ratios. Factor in Ori's MR and Armour from her ball. Factor in Xerath's mana regen passive that allows him to poke you more and push the lane harder. Factor in Zigg's spammable Q. Factor in level 1 trade and 2 trades. Factor in the Lux shield may not block damage on the return.
It's not as cut and dry as walking to baron pit doing a full skill rotation and walking away. I simply feel the risk and difficulty of trying to out trade the enemy in this way isn't worth it considering how hard Lux scales into the mid and late game once she gets some items.
I totally agree that she's very good against assassins, but more in the sense that she'll never die in lane, denies them kills in teamfights, and outscales them in general. As far as Yasuo goes, he'll always be a pain to lane against since you're all skillshot projectiles(except for ult) and he's all dashes/windwall.
I'm not ignoring anything, I'm just pointing out that you said Lux's base damages are low, which is mathematically wrong.
Lux's base damages are higher than the majority of champions. Also, in all of the examples above, Lux scales into late game worse than Ziggs/Xerath/Orianna, which IMO is likely why she doesn't really get picked in competitive games.
Lux's late game is, compared to the competition, kinda bad.
On January 10 2015 06:26 Ketara wrote: I'm not ignoring anything, I'm just pointing out that you said Lux's base damages are low, which is mathematically wrong.
Lux's base damages are higher than the majority of champions. Also, in all of the examples above, Lux scales into late game worse than Ziggs/Xerath/Orianna, which IMO is likely why she doesn't really get picked in competitive games.
Lux's late game is, compared to the competition, kinda bad.
Ok, if you count shields as a part of base damage then she has high base damage at level 3. But that's like saying Kalista has the highest base damage at level 1 at infinite due to her E's stacking potential. While technically right, it ignores practical use.
I find it rather bizarre to say Lux's late game is bad. Are you trolling?
She has higher base damages than most champions at level 1 and 2 as well. Comparing a point and click use ability that you can't miss to something as unreasonable as Kalista expecting her opponent to stand still and not do anything while she stacks things is a very silly comparison.
Lux's late game is definitely worse than Orianna, Xerath and Ziggs. It's not as bad as some champions, but compared to the competition, it is definitely subpar. Basically, by the end of the game she no longer has the burst damage to instakill targets, and her sustained damage is much lower than that of the above 3.
I don't really appreciate being asked if I'm trolling in my own thread. This is a very serious thread, and we tend to try to use factual analysis of things to prove stuff here. If you want to make the claim that Lux is such a great late game champion, I'd suggest providing some sort of example or reasoning, rather than insulting other forum members.
On January 10 2015 06:51 Ketara wrote: She has higher base damages than most champions at level 1 and 2 as well. Comparing a point and click use ability that you can't miss to something as unreasonable as Kalista expecting her opponent to stand still and not do anything while she stacks things is a very silly comparison.
Lux's late game is definitely worse than Orianna, Xerath and Ziggs. It's not as bad as some champions, but compared to the competition, it is definitely subpar. Basically, by the end of the game she no longer has the burst damage to instakill targets, and her sustained damage is much lower than that of the above 3.
I don't really appreciate being asked if I'm trolling in my own thread. This is a very serious thread, and we tend to try to use factual analysis of things to prove stuff here. If you want to make the claim that Lux is such a great late game champion, I'd suggest providing some sort of example or reasoning, rather than insulting other forum members.
I'm not trying to insult you. I just can't imagine anyone seriously saying Lux falls off mid-late game. You're right, it is silly. To argue Lux has great base damages and ignore laning dynamis, cool downs, mana costs(like I mentioned all at the same time in the post you're responding to). The same way Kalista has infinite damage on her E at level 1.
Before we change the subject to late game. Would you kindly explain the laning dynamics(the theoretical situation) in order to simply get a full combo off, plus auto attacks on a Ziggs or Xerath?
I'm not going to engage in an internet argument just for the sake of engaging in an internet argument.
You clearly don't think Lux is as good of an early game buddy as comparative champions, but is better late game. That's fine. I'd suggest actually putting some evidence out in proof of that rather than just being a dick on the internet.
Let's have a more civil discussion here instead of the passive-aggressive bickering this is heading towards.
Ketara: You're the one being kind of a dick here, insinuating that Sonnington has an agenda to ruin your thread and ruin your day. While Sonnington has made acknowledgements to your points, such as on CDR, you have yet to address in any way how paper numbers reflect how Mid lane actually operates in a real game.
Sonnington: If you think Ketara is wrong, then feel free to make your own thread or guide. If you're going to argue with him in here, then you need more evidence than hypothetical lane situations; a summoner profile of your games on Lux would be a fine place to start.
On January 10 2015 07:37 Ketara wrote: I'm not going to engage in an internet argument just for the sake of engaging in an internet argument.
You clearly don't think Lux is as good of an early game buddy as comparative champions, but is better late game. That's fine. I'd suggest actually putting some evidence out in proof of that rather than just being a dick on the internet.
I'm really not trying to agitate anyone or be a dick. My writing style can come off a bit abrasive and I apologize for that.
Lets start with early game. Like I've said she has high cds, low base damages, and high mana costs. Is it safe to say she'll get outpushed by Xerath, and Ori? Xerath can spam his Q and regain mana with his passive, while also harassing you. If Lux tries to E-auto the wave at level 1 she'll lose almost 1/4 of her mana because of her high mana costs. While Ori can push the wave for free due to her enhanced autos. Also using command attack only take 50 mana at level 1 to Lux's 70, that's pretty big. Command attack is also more reliable to use as a harass tool and tougher to avoid than Lux's E.
If the enemy gets a minion wave advantage pushing in on you, which isn't hard to do, it becomes very risky to poke the enemy. It's extremely risky to try to auto the enemy as well due to minion aggro and the potential for a Xerath stun or Orianna slow to make the minion aggro that much worse.
In short, they have more reliable poke and can push the lane harder than you can with less mana costs which inherently puts fights in their favour.
I mean, if you're talking in a vacuum, then yes those champions can push the wave easier and with less concern for their mana. But nobody does that. Incidental push while you're harassing can be effective when you want to control the lane (or push it slightly yourself), but if the opponent is trying to push in the entire wave and you have any form of waveclear/shield it is possible to control the wave such that the opponent has to overextend to farm, which in the earlygame is usually a surefire way to expose yourself to successful ganks from the opponent.
Lux's strength in lane lies from the fact that her harass is very effective (an extremely easy-to-land harassment tool in her e) and that she has an extremely efficient passive for trades, and a shield to boot. She wants to skirmish until she can gauge whether or not she can kill the opponent. This is particularly effective in the early laning phase, when the opponent often does not have the level of waveclear and range to effectively clear the wave before being out of Lux's harassment range.
As for the lategame discussion, Lux offers a different skillset than the champs you have both mentioned. She offers poke and extremely effective long-range waveclear with her E and particularly her ultimate, as well as a very strong AoE shield. Her skillset isn't as explosive as say Ori's ultimate, but it would be disingenuous to compare it to the kit as a whole IMO. But perhaps not as disingenuous as comparing Ketarah's discussion on Lux's earlygame numbers (which are very good imo) to a discussion on Kalista's E.
After playing a lot more games I can say with some conviction that I give up on my previous build. Double morellos has proven to be by far the strongest build in every game at every point before 6 items. I think my initial resistance to the build came from my hatred of building two of the same big item but maxing CDR was simply too costly and disruptive with my tear build while morello mocks me with its 2100 gold cost.
Then again, they are probably raising the cost of morello in the next patch so who knows. Playing in preseason can be so frustrating.
On January 10 2015 09:12 Navi wrote: I mean, if you're talking in a vacuum, then yes those champions can push the wave easier and with less concern for their mana. But nobody does that. Incidental push while you're harassing can be effective when you want to control the lane (or push it slightly yourself), but if the opponent is trying to push in the entire wave and you have any form of waveclear/shield it is possible to control the wave such that the opponent has to overextend to farm, which in the earlygame is usually a surefire way to expose yourself to successful ganks from the opponent.
Lux's strength in lane lies from the fact that her harass is very effective (an extremely easy-to-land harassment tool in her e) and that she has an extremely efficient passive for trades, and a shield to boot. She wants to skirmish until she can gauge whether or not she can kill the opponent. This is particularly effective in the early laning phase, when the opponent often does not have the level of waveclear and range to effectively clear the wave before being out of Lux's harassment range.
As for the lategame discussion, Lux offers a different skillset than the champs you have both mentioned. She offers poke and extremely effective long-range waveclear with her E and particularly her ultimate, as well as a very strong AoE shield. Her skillset isn't as explosive as say Ori's ultimate, but it would be disingenuous to compare it to the kit as a whole IMO. But perhaps not as disingenuous as comparing Ketarah's discussion on Lux's earlygame numbers (which are very good imo) to a discussion on Kalista's E.
Actually, there's many reason why you'd want the lane pushing into the enemy. It forced the enemy to lose cs to the tower, it keeps the enemy from roaming, and prevents them from being able to attack you due to creep damage. I agree it can be risky due to ganks. But long range mages, proper warding, and generally knowing gank timers give the lane control to the champs who can push the hardest. Freezing the lane at your tower can be a concern but it also opens up a great opportunity to lane harass on Lux if she chooses to use her shield to block minion aggro. Generally speaking, at all times, one side will be pushing harder into the other side. The odds of that being on the Xerath Orianna side are much greater.
Yes, autoing after landing an E is how she can harass in lane. That doesn't explain how she's able to do it. Lux is the one who has to walk to the other side of the lane to auto the enemy. Which means she's putter herself in danger of minion aggro. Not to mention ganks. Xerath and Ori don't rely on autoing for a significant amount of damage. Not only that, why is Ori and Xerath letting Lux walk up to them and auto them? If you don't get the auto proc in as Lux your poke is much lower than the enemy's. It's also super obvious when you're going in to auto them which opens yourself up to Xerath stun/slow and Ori slow.
I simply don't see the risk of walking up to the enemy to proc the auto being worth the reward of the harassment. If you're able to proactively get the damage in consistently, good for you. I'm just curious how that's done because I don't see anyway the enemy will let you get away with that.
@Zess
I might disagree with some of Katara's guide and opinions in general, but the vast majority of it is good information. I wouldn't be able to put together such a comprehensive guide. I'm more interested in updating the Zyra guide. Here are my op.gg profiles if you'd like to see
When you're comparing Lux/Ori/Ziggs/Xerath it's kinda like...
Ziggs and Xerath are really really similar. They both have 4 damage skillshots, their ults are really similar, etc. Xerath is a little bit more about sniping champions, and Ziggs is a little bit more about pushing and counterpushing, but they're really similar.
Orianna is different than these two. She still does good damage late game, but she has shorter ranges and more team assist through speed boost/slow/setting up fights/shield etc.
Lux late game is like a cross between the first group and the second group. She's got long range skills, good poke, but doesn't push/poke as hard as Ziggs/Xerath. She's got some good catch potential and utility, but not quite as much as a late game Orianna.
But in general, she doesn't do as much in a long fight as any of the above, because her cooldowns remain at like 6 seconds even with full CDR, while everybody else on this lists gets CDs down to 3 or 4 seconds. If you were to math out end game builds and look at sustained impact over long fights, Lux would be seriously below any of the above even counting the shield.
On January 10 2015 10:07 Ketara wrote: When you're comparing Lux/Ori/Ziggs/Xerath it's kinda like...
Ziggs and Xerath are really really similar. They both have 4 damage skillshots, their ults are really similar, etc. Xerath is a little bit more about sniping champions, and Ziggs is a little bit more about pushing and counterpushing, but they're really similar.
Orianna is different than these two. She still does good damage late game, but she has shorter ranges and more team assist through speed boost/slow/setting up fights/shield etc.
Lux late game is like a cross between the first group and the second group. She's got long range skills, good poke, but doesn't push/poke as hard as Ziggs/Xerath. She's got some good catch potential and utility, but not quite as much as a late game Orianna.
But in general, she doesn't do as much in a long fight as any of the above, because her cooldowns remain at like 6 seconds even with full CDR, while everybody else on this lists gets CDs down to 3 or 4 seconds. If you were to math out end game builds and look at sustained impact over long fights, Lux would be seriously below any of the above even counting the shield.
Yeah, that's true. I don't know how many times I've gotten pissed at a team mate because they went in when my abilities were on cd.
Despite that I still feel like her late game is the strongest of all the champs mentioned. Ori and Ziggs may have better dps due to cds, Lux has a ridiculous amount of burst damage with just landing a E-R combo. You can chunk and entire enemy team easily with just two skillshots that are hard to miss.
Also her AOE shield is one of the strongest abilities in the game. Late game, with 40% cdr and 0 ap she can have an always up shield equal to a ruby crystal in hp. That's like having a level 1 Soraka ult on a skillshot all the time. Obviously it will scale with AP. So to put it into context, if you have a full build Lux with 1000ap. You can potentially give your entire team 1110 ehp every 6 seconds. It's like giving your entire team a free warmogs every 6 seconds. That's a ridiculous amount of utility.
One way to make sure you land the shield and your team helps you land it is to throw it on them all the time before fights start so they're used to the skillshot speed, intervals, and strength.
The thing is because Ziggs/Xerath/Ori have higher AP ratios, by the end of the game their burst is higher than Lux's is.
Lux's burst combo is 1154+225% AP damage. Her main damage skill is a 6s cooldown with CDR.
Ziggs' is 1065+265%. (not counting passive) His main damage skill is a 3s cooldown with CDR.
Xeraths is 1610+329%. His main damage skill is a 3s cooldown with CDR.
Oriannas is 1110+240%. Her main damage skill is a 1.8s cooldown with CDR.
Real easy to see that once you get to big AP values, these guys are all outdamaging Lux, both in burst damage and in sustained damage. What's critical though is that Ziggs/Xerath/Orianna late game typically will have the damage to 100-0 a carry, while Lux will not.
Lux also gets gibbed by Banshee and QSS more than any of these champions.
On January 10 2015 12:17 Ketara wrote: The thing is because Ziggs/Xerath/Ori have higher AP ratios, by the end of the game their burst is higher than Lux's is.
Lux's burst combo is 1154+225% AP damage. Her main damage skill is a 6s cooldown with CDR.
Ziggs' is 1065+265%. (not counting passive) His main damage skill is a 3s cooldown with CDR.
Xeraths is 1610+329%. His main damage skill is a 3s cooldown with CDR.
Oriannas is 1110+240%. Her main damage skill is a 1.8s cooldown with CDR.
Real easy to see that once you get to big AP values, these guys are all outdamaging Lux, both in burst damage and in sustained damage. What's critical though is that Ziggs/Xerath/Orianna late game typically will have the damage to 100-0 a carry, while Lux will not.
Lux also gets gibbed by Banshee and QSS more than any of these champions.
Again, you're going into bases and AP ratios but not factoring in how they're used, the windup times, how telegraphed the ability is, the risk involved in using the ability effectively, or how easy/likely it is you'll hit your abilities in a team fight. Or how many members of the enemy team you'll hit with your abilities.
I also find it interesting how you factored in only one proc of Lux's shield late game and both procs of Lux's shield early game. Isn't it likely Lux's shield will still come back to her late game? Shouldn't we might want to also factor in how much that shield will also shield her team mates?
That's what makes Lux a boss. She can potentially shield her team for 1800ehp base with a total of 3.50ap ratio. If that's -all- Lux did late game she would be ridiculously strong.
On January 10 2015 13:36 Ketara wrote: That's without the shield. Lux's shield doesn't do damage.
Her shield is what makes her strong late game. Her late game damage is kind of bad.
On January 10 2015 12:17 Ketara wrote: The thing is because Ziggs/Xerath/Ori have higher AP ratios, by the end of the game their burst is higher than Lux's is.
Lux's burst combo is 1154+225% AP damage. Her main damage skill is a 6s cooldown with CDR.
Ziggs' is 1065+265%. (not counting passive) His main damage skill is a 3s cooldown with CDR.
Xeraths is 1610+329%. His main damage skill is a 3s cooldown with CDR.
Oriannas is 1110+240%. Her main damage skill is a 1.8s cooldown with CDR.
On January 10 2015 05:11 Ketara wrote: Lux's base damages are higher than most champions at low levels.
If you compare say, a level 3 Lux vs. other, similar "safe" mid lane mages (Ziggs, Xerath, Orianna) and about normal AP (40ish at 3), this is what you get.
Ziggs: 353 damage (figuring half a minefield hitting you)
You count shield as damage when it suits you and discount it when it doesn't.
Stop cherry-picking facts to bolster your argument and address his points, otherwise please stop spreading misinformation. You have yet to address the differing cooldowns, ranges, and a variety of other factors that makes a 1-to-1 comparison of damage/shield value/AP ratios misleading. You can't count CDs and say Ziggs/Xerath/Ori have less CD than Lux, therefore they do more damage, while ignoring CDs for early game comparisons. You can't have it both ways.
Lux, in the early game, wins trades against most other champions, because her base values are very high, and her cooldowns, while restrictive, don't matter in the early game because mana is what restricts you there, not cooldowns.
Late in the game, because her AP ratios are lower than most other champions and her cooldowns are high (when cooldown matters and mana does not), she falls off a little.
I count shielding as "damage" when I'm looking at the comparison of an early game trade, because damage shielded contributes to who wins the trade.
I don't count shielding in a comparison of who does more burst damage late game, because the shield doesn't do damage. It's not a comparison of late game skill efficiency or anything like that. How about, instead of coming in the thread just to call me out, you provide the numbers for once, since mine are so bad.
The big problem is that you see it in a perfect vacuum as Sonnington wrote many times and you just ignored it
Again, you're going into bases and AP ratios but not factoring in how they're used, the windup times, how telegraphed the ability is, the risk involved in using the ability effectively, or how easy/likely it is you'll hit your abilities in a team fight. Or how many members of the enemy team you'll hit with your abilities.
And I am sure that Lux still has enough AP to 100-0 an adc. You need to count the shield because in a fight where there is a lux you need to substract the shield from the possible burst damage.
Why dont you and Sonnington try out laning 1 vs 1 maybe both of you learn something new
On January 10 2015 14:49 Ketara wrote: But here, here's some not cherry picked facts.
Lux, in the early game, wins trades against most other champions, because her base values are very high, and her cooldowns, while restrictive, don't matter in the early game because mana is what restricts you there, not cooldowns.
Late in the game, because her AP ratios are lower than most other champions and her cooldowns are high (when cooldown matters and mana does not), she falls off a little.
I count shielding as "damage" when I'm looking at the comparison of an early game trade, because damage shielded contributes to who wins the trade.
I don't count shielding in a comparison of who does more burst damage late game, because the shield doesn't do damage. It's not a comparison of late game skill efficiency or anything like that. How about, instead of coming in the thread just to call me out, you provide the numbers for once, since mine are so bad.
When trading, it's quite possible that someone with lower CDs than Lux can get off more than one spell rotation, which makes your add-all-the-numbers approach moot if it doesn't account for that.
In addition, you are assuming that Lux gets max value out of both trips of her shield in a trading situation, which is gain highly unrealistic, making a 1-to-1 shield -to-damage conversion misleading.
League is not a Spreadsheet Simulator, where adding up numbers shows how the game plays out.
To start with, when we're talking about early game trading in regards to these four champions, the only spell any of them have that's lower than about a 10 second cooldown are Ori Q and Ziggs Q. Early game trades don't last for an entire 10 seconds, in general, because in general one person or the other will be dead before then.
It's def. possible for Orianna to get multiple Q's off in a trading situation, which is part of what makes Orianna a difficult matchup, which is already outlined in the guide. Orianna is tricky to play against because if you just trade spells she will win, and if you do a long trade with lots of autos she will win. What you have to do against Orianna is trade spells, go in for just a couple autos to pop passives, and then back off. You can win if you trade like that, and it's certainly a lot easier after she got that big base AD nerf than it was a year ago.
The trick against Ziggs is to only trade with him while his passive is down, which is really easy since he has to use it to farm.
As to talking about max value Lux shields, only counting half her shield her early game trading value in those figures is 330, which is equivalent to trades from Ziggs and Xerath. Basically any value from the second shield gives you a winning trade, and it's not as hard as you might think to get value from it.
But, I'm tired of this. I'm really, really tired of this. League of Legends isn't a spreadsheet simulator, but that doesn't mean that doing math and running figures doesn't have value. And if it doesn't, what does? Your summoner ranking? Your experience? Because if we go by that, Navi's post was basically ignored, and I have the most experience with Lux of anybody here and I am being criticized.
Basically, this started with the question of "should you run flat CDR on Lux", and it has spiraled into this giant thing where I'm being attacked for every post that I make by people who have no intention of putting the same sort of professionalism and seriousness into the thread that I do. I already had to get Heyoka to kick Cheep out of this thread once, and I don't want to do it again.
I can see that this is how this shit is going to go now that the forum has moved, and I don't want to have any part of it. I think I'm done here. I'd suggest just closing the thread, and let somebody else deal with making a Lux guide.
On January 10 2015 15:21 Ketara wrote: Okay, here are some answers to your concerns.
To start with, when we're talking about early game trading in regards to these four champions, the only spell any of them have that's lower than about a 10 second cooldown are Ori Q and Ziggs Q. Early game trades don't last for an entire 10 seconds, in general, because in general one person or the other will be dead before then.
It's def. possible for Orianna to get multiple Q's off in a trading situation, which is part of what makes Orianna a difficult matchup, which is already outlined in the guide. Orianna is tricky to play against because if you just trade spells she will win, and if you do a long trade with lots of autos she will win. What you have to do against Orianna is trade spells, go in for just a couple autos to pop passives, and then back off. You can win if you trade like that, and it's certainly a lot easier after she got that big base AD nerf than it was a year ago.
The trick against Ziggs is to only trade with him while his passive is down, which is really easy since he has to use it to farm.
As to talking about max value Lux shields, only counting half her shield her early game trading value in those figures is 330, which is equivalent to trades from Ziggs and Xerath. Basically any value from the second shield gives you a winning trade, and it's not as hard as you might think to get value from it.
But, I'm tired of this. I'm really, really tired of this. League of Legends isn't a spreadsheet simulator, but that doesn't mean that doing math and running figures doesn't have value. And if it doesn't, what does? Your summoner ranking? Your experience? Because if we go by that, Navi's post was basically ignored, and I have the most experience with Lux of anybody here and I am being criticized.
Basically, this started with the question of "should you run flat CDR on Lux", and it has spiraled into this giant thing where I'm being attacked for every post that I make by people who have no intention of putting the same sort of professionalism and seriousness into the thread that I do. I already had to get Heyoka to kick Cheep out of this thread once, and I don't want to do it again.
I can see that this is how this shit is going to go now that the forum has moved, and I don't want to have any part of it. I think I'm done here. I'd suggest just closing the thread, and let somebody else deal with making a Lux guide.
You've done well with this IMO and it'd be a shame if you stopped cause of this.
I mean like i don't see anything factually incorrect in what Ketera's been saying (though i personally think Lux ult lategame seems a bit underappreciated but w/e).
I don't even know why someone would suggest CDR quints on any mana based champ for early game purposes (or hell, any purpose). It's like saying Anivia should take CDR so she does...what? Waveclear/trade more often? Have fun with that. With the current iteration of blue buff and chalice, CDR quints can't be good in lane for anything really. I can't think of anyone who would benefit off that (cept for Veigar for dem stacks, though that's pretty troll) and not fall flat on their face with mana issues.
On January 09 2015 18:27 Sonnington wrote: ...I feel Lux is a perfect counter to assassins like Zed and Fizz ...
Would be interested in your reasoning why, as anyone I have talked with would disagree.
On January 10 2015 04:47 Sonnington wrote: ...typically have to farm the same way PowerofEvil farmed vs Bjergsen at IEM San Jose.
PoE never picked Lux into Bjerg, he played Leblanc into Xerath and Syndra against Azir. He did play Lux into Hai's Syndra, but then again Hai isn't exactly known for having a dominate lane phase.
Ketara, I still think you need to Q at level 1, or minimally skill E after 1:50.
I think this is the second time I saw you skilling E at level one in an IH game, got into a level 1 fight, then missed the opportunities because you chose a weak slow (E) instead of a bind (Q).
It might be just a personal playstyle choice, I am not sure, but I never skill up at level 1 until laning phase start (with the exception of Twisted Fate, who basically has to start W). For many champions, there is an optimal skill for level 1 for laning and one for level 1 fights - as a result it may be better if you don't skill up anything until you are sure you will be moving into the laning phase without any level 1 fights. Here are some examples:
1. Xerath: for laning W is better; for level 1 fight E is far superior. 2. Ahri: for laning Q is better; for level 1 fight E is far superior. 3. Leona: depending on the situation (i.e. do you need a gapcloser or a stun), Q or E can be superior to the other.
In that particular game yesterday I took E because we said we weren't invading, and E gives you a good tool to scout for enemy invades. Then Cixah ran in after Ghandi anyway.
It's important to take E at level 1 if you can, and even more important in season 5 now that you aren't leashing. You want to use E on the enemy champion as soon as possible so you can use some mana and start getting your mana regen, which you can't really do if you start Q.
Now for something completely different! Here's my reasoning and rationale for Lux countering assassins, specifically Zed and Fizz.
The strategy is basically to play like a complete pussy during laning and outscale them with a ton of utility and aoe damage in team fights. Deny them kills in lane and Lux wins by default. Think of Zed as being on a timer, once your top/jungler gets armour, you get your hourglass, and your ADC gets QSS. His usefulness goes way down. Fizz is in a similar boat for a different reason. Fizz has a tough time farming mid game since his escape tool is also his only form of waveclear. If you deny these champions their snowball they fall off really hard.
In the same way Lulu has strong waveclear and can deny kills with her shield and ult. Lux denies assassins with her shield, which has higher base and ap scaling than Lulu's shield alone. So level shield second. Lux is also incredibly safe in lane due to her ability to farm at range and her binding.
The way you want to farm is like this. You'll want to throw an E out in a place where it'll hit all the minions. Stand in between the E and the enemy laner and auto the minions before the E goes off. You typically don't want to detonate the E before the full time because of the zoning potential. You also don't want to try and auto the minions after your E goes off because it'll give the enemy opportunities to attack or harass. Rarely will you actually want to harass the enemy laner by popping the E on them if it's not advantageous to your csing. Lux's early mana gating vs an enemy champ is so great it's not worth harassing. Another thing you can do, if you can't zone the enemy, is to detonate your E as a minion is about to die. Then throw an E on top of it to entirely clear the wave. If you're forced to farm like this you'll be down in CS to the enemy laner, but you can be down 30 cs at 20 minutes to a 0/0/0 Zed. It's ok, you deal so much AOE and have so much utility it doesn't matter.
The goal of laning isn't to kick the enemy out of lane or get a kill, it's to deny the assassin kills and farm relatively equal. If Zed wants to, he will outpush you. So it's important to have good wave control. Or even freeze your wave(pre level 6) in front of your tower. It's easy to freeze due to the Lux shield. The less risk you take the better. It's also incredibly important to let your side laners know when an assassin has left the lane. Spam the shit out of that the MIA ping. Also use the fallback ping to the lane that's more likely going to be ganked. Also, always have a pink in the river or around flank spots. Even if you break even in lane and deny him kills on you, he still might get fed on side laners. So go full mom-mode for your team.
If you're vs an AP assassin, GREAT! Buy a chalice on your first back and you're Gucci. If you're vs Zed or Talon, build doran ring and clothe along with hp/mana pots on my first and second back. You'll need that second doran ring for mana regen and crucially it'll give you extra HP if he wants to try to burst you down. Then you get your armguard into chalice.
Never upgrade the chalice. Sure CDR is great on Lux, you know what's even better? Damage. You won't need the cdr until you have respectable damage. Once you get a needlessly large rod you get both a huge shield and the damage you'll need to actually start poking people to the point they'll feel it. Until you get a deathcap or hourglass and voidstaff there's absolutely no need to upgrade your chalice. If you upgrade it early you'll be delaying your power spike and giving the assassin time to roam and get fed.
There's a point to be made about morello's and tear on Lux. But in this situation, you need hourglass to counter Zed and the MR from chalice to counter the AP assassins. So it's best to just get a chalice and forget about it until your major items are completed.
Laning patterns against Fizz and Zed go like this. If Fizz slides onto you, you shield the damage and get him off of you with E. If he troll poles away from your E damage, you use your binding. At level 6 you should never be in range of his slide unless you're in range of your tower. If you're in range of his Q and he can slide onto you without taking tower shots, he's going to ult you, get a bunch of autos off and troll pole your binding, Then you're dead. So just don't do that! If he has to troll pole to land a q or his ult you're fine because you can use binding to stop him from autoing you. So how does Lux farm if Fizz has such amazing lane control? When he goes last hit a minion you throw your E out as you'll outrange his slide by quite a bit. If you're at your tower and he dives you he won't be able to 100-0 you with chalice, shield, and heal. It simply won't be possible. In fact you probably won't even need heal.
Zed is even easier. If he tries to harass you with shurikens, they're easy to dodge since you farm mainly with E and passive. If he uses his shadow to harass you shield off his damage. If he ults you, you Q him to the face and get off a full combo. Typically Zeds know they can't ult you when your Q is up so they never even try.
As far as other assassins go like Kat, Akali, LeBlanc, and Talon. It's a little tougher to make them useless past laning phase. You pretty much have to hope your shield lands. Talon isn't as scary anymore without a silence. LeBlanc/Kat/Talon can't ever go aggressive in lane or they'll eat a binding/full combo to the face. Akali on the other hand has her shroud which gives her increased MR. Laning vs her is a lot like Fizz post level 6. Again, these champs have an easy time farming mid-late game and have much stronger team fights than Zed and Fizz if they haven't snowballed.
On January 11 2015 04:20 Ketara wrote: In that particular game yesterday I took E because we said we weren't invading, and E gives you a good tool to scout for enemy invades. Then Cixah ran in after Ghandi anyway.
It's important to take E at level 1 if you can, and even more important in season 5 now that you aren't leashing. You want to use E on the enemy champion as soon as possible so you can use some mana and start getting your mana regen, which you can't really do if you start Q.
Well you can do it with Q too, except it has longer cooldown, costs more mana, and harder to land.
But in all seriousness, I am not convinced that level 1 harass is worth it because the mana to damage ratio is pretty bad. It's more for the psychological factor.
On January 11 2015 04:20 Ketara wrote: In that particular game yesterday I took E because we said we weren't invading, and E gives you a good tool to scout for enemy invades. Then Cixah ran in after Ghandi anyway.
It's important to take E at level 1 if you can, and even more important in season 5 now that you aren't leashing. You want to use E on the enemy champion as soon as possible so you can use some mana and start getting your mana regen, which you can't really do if you start Q.
Well you can do it with Q too, except it has longer cooldown, costs more mana, and harder to land.
But in all seriousness, I am not convinced that level 1 harass is worth it because the mana to damage ratio is pretty bad. It's more for the psychological factor.
You often don't get much damage out of level 1 harass, but as far as mana cost goes, it's basically free.
If we assume that you're going to throw an E at somebody the instant you both come into lane, you've got about 35 seconds between that point and when you hit level 2, which is on the first minion of the second wave.
Lux has 6.8 mana regen at 1, plus 3 from Dring, plus up to 36 regenned from Dring passive and Feast, plus potentially 3 from Utility masteries.
This is as much as 125.6 mana regenned before level 2.
So basically, if you compare using spells at level 1 to waiting for level 2, you can use E twice at level 1 and it only actually costs you as little as 15 mana.
You can do this with Q as well, but it's much harder to actually hit the guy, which is why E at 1 is so preferable.
Typically I try to use E twice at level 1, but wait on the third cast till I hit level 2, when the passive is doing 8 more damage.
On January 11 2015 04:20 Ketara wrote: In that particular game yesterday I took E because we said we weren't invading, and E gives you a good tool to scout for enemy invades. Then Cixah ran in after Ghandi anyway.
It's important to take E at level 1 if you can, and even more important in season 5 now that you aren't leashing. You want to use E on the enemy champion as soon as possible so you can use some mana and start getting your mana regen, which you can't really do if you start Q.
Well you can do it with Q too, except it has longer cooldown, costs more mana, and harder to land.
But in all seriousness, I am not convinced that level 1 harass is worth it because the mana to damage ratio is pretty bad. It's more for the psychological factor.
You often don't get much damage out of level 1 harass, but as far as mana cost goes, it's basically free.
If we assume that you're going to throw an E at somebody the instant you both come into lane, you've got about 35 seconds between that point and when you hit level 2, which is on the first minion of the second wave.
Lux has 6.8 mana regen at 1, plus 3 from Dring, plus up to 36 regenned from Dring passive and Feast, plus potentially 3 from Utility masteries.
This is as much as 125.6 mana regenned before level 2.
So basically, if you compare using spells at level 1 to waiting for level 2, you can use E twice at level 1 and it only actually costs you as little as 15 mana.
You can do this with Q as well, but it's much harder to actually hit the guy, which is why E at 1 is so preferable.
Typically I try to use E twice at level 1, but wait on the third cast till I hit level 2, when the passive is doing 8 more damage.
Yes, I understand that when you E someone, your mana regen will kick in so it's "practically free harass".
But you also have to realize that your opponent has HP regen. So whenever he takes damage his HP regen will kick in so it's "practically free heal". I didn't do the math on this, but I am pretty sure you have to spend considerable mana to actually hurt your opponent at level 1.
Under the same criteria, Lux would heal about 63.8 HP during this time period, which is considerably less than the amount of damage you can do.
Two E's by themselves will do about 120 damage, counting resists. Passive autos will do another 120 or so, or about 38 from the passives magic damage if you just want to look at that. This harass might also make them miss a CS, etc.
Problem with playing like a pussy(not only applicable to lux) against zed and fizz is
A. They get free farm and free 6. They're weakest 1-5, afterwards they're a kill threat to you and everybody else on your team. You completely cede map control around middle, and they get initiative on any roams because mid is going to constantly push and you can't fully clear the wave until they've cleared it. Especially with lux's range, you should be playing aggressively with autos, saving bind for counter aggression, at least early on.
B. Zed and Fizz both can dodge your skillshots. That wouldn't be so bad, except that you'll die before your next rotation of them comes up.
On January 11 2015 12:32 Amui wrote: Problem with playing like a pussy(not only applicable to lux) against zed and fizz is
A. They get free farm and free 6. They're weakest 1-5, afterwards they're a kill threat to you and everybody else on your team. You completely cede map control around middle, and they get initiative on any roams because mid is going to constantly push and you can't fully clear the wave until they've cleared it. Especially with lux's range, you should be playing aggressively with autos, saving bind for counter aggression, at least early on.
B. Zed and Fizz both can dodge your skillshots. That wouldn't be so bad, except that you'll die before your next rotation of them comes up.
Let them farm. It doesn't matter, you're going to scale better than they will anyway. As long as they don't snowball they fall off like rocks.
It was a pretty long post, but see the part where I talk about laning patterns and when you'll want to use your Q. You never use your binding unless they use troll pole or Zed ult. You clear the waves with two Es. You throw your E out when they go to auto minions because if they're in melee range of the minions you'll have enough range to E without Zed being able to ult you and Fizz isn't able to slide onto you. So no, you're not particularly waiting for them to clear a wave and passively sitting on the side lines.
I also go over how you prevent roaming by warding the river and pinging when the enemy mid is mia. The whole guide is about preventing the snowball. See what happens at 20 minutes when the enemy Zed is 0/0/0 and you're both farmed up.
On January 11 2015 12:32 Amui wrote: Problem with playing like a pussy(not only applicable to lux) against zed and fizz is
A. They get free farm and free 6. They're weakest 1-5, afterwards they're a kill threat to you and everybody else on your team. You completely cede map control around middle, and they get initiative on any roams because mid is going to constantly push and you can't fully clear the wave until they've cleared it. Especially with lux's range, you should be playing aggressively with autos, saving bind for counter aggression, at least early on.
B. Zed and Fizz both can dodge your skillshots. That wouldn't be so bad, except that you'll die before your next rotation of them comes up.
Let them farm. It doesn't matter, you're going to scale better than they will anyway. As long as they don't snowball they fall off like rocks.
It was a pretty long post, but see the part where I talk about laning patterns and when you'll want to use your Q. You never use your binding unless they use troll pole or Zed ult. You clear the waves with two Es. You throw your E out when they go to auto minions because if they're in melee range of the minions you'll have enough range to E without Zed being able to ult you and Fizz isn't able to slide onto you. So no, you're not particularly waiting for them to clear a wave and passively sitting on the side lines.
I also go over how you prevent roaming by warding the river and pinging when the enemy mid is mia. The whole guide is about preventing the snowball. See what happens at 20 minutes when the enemy Zed is 0/0/0 and you're both farmed up.
I fail to see how Lux scales better than fizz, although Zed is debatable depending on teamcomp.
I've played enough Lux games to know that you're going to miss a lot of CS if you're trying to clear the wave with 2 E's against zed/fizz, and you're letting them farm(aka they are standing between you, and enemy minions).
To clear with only E's you have to wait until the minions line up, drop an E, and then wait 8 secs to drop another. If you can't walk up to auto, you'll probably miss at least a couple every wave, which adds up very, very quickly.
The way you would clear it if you could walk up is to Q the first two, drop E on all(wait a bit for the slow), and then auto/drop a second E just as the minions touch to clean up all the CS.
Presence in mid isn't just about warding. Zed/Fizz could be detected the whole time, but it still hamstrings your jungler when you can't help make plays.
I can see a handful of issues with this supposed Lux "counter" to Zed and Fizz:
1) if you go into mid lane with the intention of losing all map pressure, you're doing it wrong 2) if you play far back enough so that they can't touch you, you're going to miss CS; your CS difference is then made larger by the fact that you have to buy more wards than they do 3) it's soloQ and people rarely look at pings/minimap -- often the snowball is going to happen anyways 4) both Zed and Fizz are both much, much more mobile than you, so even if you see them going bot and try to follow chances are the only thing you're going to be able to get off is a long-range ulti, which 90% of the time isn't enough 5) if their jungler and support are competent, they'll clear your wards or kill you when you try to ward
Having played these matchups a LOT, especially last season, I'm also not convinced that a good Zed or Fizz won't murder you in the midgame, both in terms of 1v1 (after a certain point playing back often doesn't matter, especially against Fizz) and teamfights (it's easier for them to burst you or your ADC than it is for you to do the same to them).
Overall nothing of what you've described sounds to me like a "counter" and actually sounds like the same, roughly, of what you do when you get counterpicked by Zed or Fizz. It's an incredibly hard matchup for Lux, the only harder ones I can think of is maybe Talon or a really really good Xerath.
edit: to go along with Ketara's point below, I was Diamond V last season, then at the end of the season decayed down into high plat because I started only playing team builder/normals. I only had 20 games with Lux in ranked (iirc winning 15 of them), but I tend to focus on bot lane roles in ranked. I'd say I have at least over 100 games played with her last season.
You really need at least 20% CDR before you start doing the two E's to clear thing. If you do it before that the best you can hope for is 4 minions per wave, which is not enough.
Once you've got 20% CDR you should be able to get 5-6 with some practice. It depends on how the minions hit each other, and sometimes you get unlucky.
But like, Sonnington. I really appreciate having some fresh voices in the thread, that's pretty cool. But I'd like you to look at the people you're arguing with at this point.
Amui is diamond. Navi is a challenger mid main. I'm only plat, but I've also got a good 1000 or so ranked games on Lux in my career. You've got three accounts in mid to high gold, with less than 30 ranked Lux games. You're saying things like Lux scales into late game better than champions like Ziggs and Fizz, which is honestly just not correct.
You're not wrong that Lux is good against Assassins. But she's good because she beats them in lane, not because she scales better. Against Zed especially you can just walk up and kill him 1v1. Fizz is a lot harder, but pre 6 if Fizz jumps in on you and you play it right, you really should be expected to kill him too. Fizz just has a lot more room to outplay your snare than Zed does, because Zeds way to dodge your spells is also his engage tool, while Fizz can engage with Q and then dodge something after he's already on you.
I feel like I'm being mean saying this, but I do think you don't realize it and it's not clear at all from just peoples names on the subforum, so I am pointing it out.
On January 11 2015 12:32 Amui wrote: Problem with playing like a pussy(not only applicable to lux) against zed and fizz is
A. They get free farm and free 6. They're weakest 1-5, afterwards they're a kill threat to you and everybody else on your team. You completely cede map control around middle, and they get initiative on any roams because mid is going to constantly push and you can't fully clear the wave until they've cleared it. Especially with lux's range, you should be playing aggressively with autos, saving bind for counter aggression, at least early on.
B. Zed and Fizz both can dodge your skillshots. That wouldn't be so bad, except that you'll die before your next rotation of them comes up.
Let them farm. It doesn't matter, you're going to scale better than they will anyway. As long as they don't snowball they fall off like rocks.
It was a pretty long post, but see the part where I talk about laning patterns and when you'll want to use your Q. You never use your binding unless they use troll pole or Zed ult. You clear the waves with two Es. You throw your E out when they go to auto minions because if they're in melee range of the minions you'll have enough range to E without Zed being able to ult you and Fizz isn't able to slide onto you. So no, you're not particularly waiting for them to clear a wave and passively sitting on the side lines.
I also go over how you prevent roaming by warding the river and pinging when the enemy mid is mia. The whole guide is about preventing the snowball. See what happens at 20 minutes when the enemy Zed is 0/0/0 and you're both farmed up.
I fail to see how Lux scales better than fizz, although Zed is debatable depending on teamcomp.
I've played enough Lux games to know that you're going to miss a lot of CS if you're trying to clear the wave with 2 E's against zed/fizz, and you're letting them farm(aka they are standing between you, and enemy minions).
To clear with only E's you have to wait until the minions line up, drop an E, and then wait 8 secs to drop another. If you can't walk up to auto, you'll probably miss at least a couple every wave, which adds up very, very quickly.
The way you would clear it if you could walk up is to Q the first two, drop E on all(wait a bit for the slow), and then auto/drop a second E just as the minions touch to clean up all the CS.
Presence in mid isn't just about warding. Zed/Fizz could be detected the whole time, but it still hamstrings your jungler when you can't help make plays.
Mages, as a class, outscale assassins in usefulness mid-late game. AOE damage > single target damage especially in a team fight. Again, on top of that, the Lux shield is one of the best tools in the game for denying assassins kills.
Would you mind explaining how Zed doesn't fall off like a brick in the mid to late game? I don't think it's really a debatable topic.Through items he loses his ability to assassinate targets, An assassin who can't assassinate isn't very useful to me. Mid-late you typically see Zed split pushing so he can do something useful for the team.
As far as Fizz goes, like I said, if he doesn't snowball he has a difficult time farming mid-late game because he's melee and his only AOE ability is also his escape(outside of his ult). So if he doesn't snowball he's much less effective in a siege scenario and Lux is the goddess of sieges.
Can you explain how you're hamstringing your jungler? If your jungler's being invaded upon you still go to help him. You still show up to dragon fights. 2v2s and team fights are where Lux shines. Not only due to the shield mechanic, but because of her AOE damage and utility. You're a pussy to the extent that you're not taking a proactive role in bullying or trading with the enemy. Not insofar that you're afked at your tower crapping your pants praying to the only god you know that your jungler doesn't doesn't get 2v1ed. If the enemy makes a mistake, by all means, punish it in lane.
@InfSunday 1. By giving up all pressure, you mean you won't match roams and facecheck brushes. Yes. If you mean you won't help your jungler, won't push the lane, or show up to dragon fights. No. 2. I've accounted for that. Again, being down 20-30cs at 20 minutes isn't so bad since you're going to outscale anyway. 3. I find if you spam ping the enemy mid laner is missing and then back ping the lane he's obviously going to roam to they listen almost 99% of the time. YMMV. 4. It takes about 15-20 seconds to walk from mid to bot/top lane. If they use their mobility spell on roaming it's not entirely efficient since their cd on living shadow and troll pole is fairly high early game. 5. What if your jungler and support are "competent"?
Zed can never kill you in a 1v1 due to hourglass. Fizz can't 100-0 you under tower, especially if you put points in shield second and take heal, barrier, or exhaust. If you have information on how Zed can reliably kill you after you buy hourglass or how Fizz can 100-0 you under tower. I'd be more than happy to hear it.
@Ketara That's great you guys are higher ranked! There's no doubt you have a lot more experience and knowledge about Lux than I do. It just doesn't help to argue that point. I'm more interested in hearing your rationale or examples on how or why something works rather than hear you're a higher rank. I'm just not seeing that. I've pretty much given up on getting your rationale of how Lux is strong early and falls off late besides hearing base stats and AP scaling. Hearing base stats and AP scaling is nice and all, but you won't address things like auto attack range or size of AOEs or ease of landing those abilities among other issues I've taken up.
In any event to placate the dick waving. My highest rank was gold 1 on NA and I entered plat promos a few times. At gold 1 you're within the top 10% of LoL players. I'd say that's not too shabby and our ranks by percentage of top players are similar.
I don't doubt you believe Lux is a lane bully that doesn't scale well into late game. I don't doubt your playstyle works for you. I also don't agree that it's optimal. I'm asking for more information on why you feel that way and I'm not getting much back. When you say things like, 'You walk up to Zed and kill him.' That gives me no useful information. What am I supposed to take away from that?
And BTW, I wrote a lengthy response to Navi, their post did not go ignored. I also want to actually illustrate my point about pushing the lane harder than Lux can to establish lane control. In the UoL vs C9 game, Hai pushes the lane into PowerofEvil constantly forcing the Lux to use her E to farm and counter push. It's definitely a viable strategy and it creates quite a bit of lane control. And it's definitely something people do, do.
I don't know why you're asking for rationale when you just plainly fucking ignore some of the most important things about why a champion is strong at certain points of the game (aka base stats and scaling)
look at it this way lategame if you land a Q on a target you use your full burst and any follow up from your team will ensure he will die and its probably a 5v4 teamfight which should be an easy win.
In lane phase you have no teammates to funnel them in to certain areas (e.g you can't run up to you and to the side of the lane if there's other skillshots, they have to always dodge backwards to the side) So you'll miss most of your skillshots and even if you hit them it will only do a relatively low amount of damage. Even if you do kill someone it will have a low impact on the game.
Meanwhile you're squishy and easy to gank and if you miss the skillshots you can get zoned. Lategame you can catch anyone and win a game with oneshotting.
On January 11 2015 12:32 Amui wrote: Problem with playing like a pussy(not only applicable to lux) against zed and fizz is
A. They get free farm and free 6. They're weakest 1-5, afterwards they're a kill threat to you and everybody else on your team. You completely cede map control around middle, and they get initiative on any roams because mid is going to constantly push and you can't fully clear the wave until they've cleared it. Especially with lux's range, you should be playing aggressively with autos, saving bind for counter aggression, at least early on.
B. Zed and Fizz both can dodge your skillshots. That wouldn't be so bad, except that you'll die before your next rotation of them comes up.
Let them farm. It doesn't matter, you're going to scale better than they will anyway. As long as they don't snowball they fall off like rocks.
It was a pretty long post, but see the part where I talk about laning patterns and when you'll want to use your Q. You never use your binding unless they use troll pole or Zed ult. You clear the waves with two Es. You throw your E out when they go to auto minions because if they're in melee range of the minions you'll have enough range to E without Zed being able to ult you and Fizz isn't able to slide onto you. So no, you're not particularly waiting for them to clear a wave and passively sitting on the side lines.
I also go over how you prevent roaming by warding the river and pinging when the enemy mid is mia. The whole guide is about preventing the snowball. See what happens at 20 minutes when the enemy Zed is 0/0/0 and you're both farmed up.
I fail to see how Lux scales better than fizz, although Zed is debatable depending on teamcomp.
I've played enough Lux games to know that you're going to miss a lot of CS if you're trying to clear the wave with 2 E's against zed/fizz, and you're letting them farm(aka they are standing between you, and enemy minions).
To clear with only E's you have to wait until the minions line up, drop an E, and then wait 8 secs to drop another. If you can't walk up to auto, you'll probably miss at least a couple every wave, which adds up very, very quickly.
The way you would clear it if you could walk up is to Q the first two, drop E on all(wait a bit for the slow), and then auto/drop a second E just as the minions touch to clean up all the CS.
Presence in mid isn't just about warding. Zed/Fizz could be detected the whole time, but it still hamstrings your jungler when you can't help make plays.
Mages, as a class, outscale assassins in usefulness mid-late game. AOE damage > single target damage especially in a team fight. Again, on top of that, the Lux shield is one of the best tools in the game for denying assassins kills.
Would you mind explaining how Zed doesn't fall off like a brick in the mid to late game? I don't think it's really a debatable topic.Through items he loses his ability to assassinate targets, An assassin who can't assassinate isn't very useful to me. Mid-late you typically see Zed split pushing so he can do something useful for the team.
As far as Fizz goes, like I said, if he doesn't snowball he has a difficult time farming mid-late game because he's melee and his only AOE ability is also his escape(outside of his ult). So if he doesn't snowball he's much less effective in a siege scenario and Lux is the goddess of sieges.
Can you explain how you're hamstringing your jungler? If your jungler's being invaded upon you still go to help him. You still show up to dragon fights. 2v2s and team fights are where Lux shines. Not only due to the shield mechanic, but because of her AOE damage and utility. You're a pussy to the extent that you're not taking a proactive role in bullying or trading with the enemy. Not insofar that you're afked at your tower crapping your pants praying to the only god you know that your jungler doesn't doesn't get 2v1ed. If the enemy makes a mistake, by all means, punish it in lane.
@InfSunday 1. By giving up all pressure, you mean you won't match roams and facecheck brushes. Yes. If you mean you won't help your jungler, won't push the lane, or show up to dragon fights. No. 2. I've accounted for that. Again, being down 20-30cs at 20 minutes isn't so bad since you're going to outscale anyway. 3. I find if you spam ping the enemy mid laner is missing and then back ping the lane he's obviously going to roam to they listen almost 99% of the time. YMMV. 4. It takes about 15-20 seconds to walk from mid to bot/top lane. If they use their mobility spell on roaming it's not entirely efficient since their cd on living shadow and troll pole is fairly high early game. 5. What if your jungler and support are "competent"?
Zed can never kill you in a 1v1 due to hourglass. Fizz can't 100-0 you under tower, especially if you put points in shield second and take heal, barrier, or exhaust. If you have information on how Zed can reliably kill you after you buy hourglass or how Fizz can 100-0 you under tower. I'd be more than happy to hear it.
@Ketara That's great you guys are higher ranked! There's no doubt you have a lot more experience and knowledge about Lux than I do. It just doesn't help to argue that point. I'm more interested in hearing your rationale or examples on how or why something works rather than hear you're a higher rank. I'm just not seeing that. I've pretty much given up on getting your rationale of how Lux is strong early and falls off late besides hearing base stats and AP scaling. Hearing base stats and AP scaling is nice and all, but you won't address things like auto attack range or size of AOEs or ease of landing those abilities among other issues I've taken up.
In any event to placate the dick waving. My highest rank was gold 1 on NA and I entered plat promos a few times. At gold 1 you're within the top 10% of LoL players. I'd say that's not too shabby and our ranks by percentage of top players are similar.
I don't doubt you believe Lux is a lane bully that doesn't scale well into late game. I don't doubt your playstyle works for you. I also don't agree that it's optimal. I'm asking for more information on why you feel that way and I'm not getting much back. When you say things like, 'You walk up to Zed and kill him.' That gives me no useful information. What am I supposed to take away from that?
And BTW, I wrote a lengthy response to Navi, their post did not go ignored. I also want to actually illustrate my point about pushing the lane harder than Lux can to establish lane control. In the UoL vs C9 game, Hai pushes the lane into PowerofEvil constantly forcing the Lux to use her E to farm and counter push. It's definitely a viable strategy and it creates quite a bit of lane control. And it's definitely something people do, do.
Fizz one shots all casters, and kills the melee's with one auto if he doesn't outright kill them mid-lategame. Not sure how he can't farm. You're already giving him free farm, he can easily farm up a LB+DFG and oneshot everybody on your team. Sure he can't instaclear a wave like lux can, but give him 10 seconds and he'll clear a giant minion wave with ease.
You hamstring your jungler because the enemy team ALWAYS has initiative on roams/invades. If you roam, you die to their midlaner 1v1 without positioning advantage of turret. Even if you're just a screen away from a turret you're still dead.
Zed falls off somewhat once both carries can ignore his ult(hourglass/QSS). That's entering lategame territory. Fizz just straight up scales better than Lux. AoE damage is nice, but until somebodies HP hits zero, they can still contribute to a fight. And don't give me shit about cleaning up afterwards, because zed/fizz will do that many, many times better than a lux will.
On January 12 2015 04:19 Slayer91 wrote: I don't know why you're asking for rationale when you just plainly fucking ignore some of the most important things about why a champion is strong at certain points of the game (aka base stats and scaling)
look at it this way lategame if you land a Q on a target you use your full burst and any follow up from your team will ensure he will die and its probably a 5v4 teamfight which should be an easy win.
In lane phase you have no teammates to funnel them in to certain areas (e.g you can't run up to you and to the side of the lane if there's other skillshots, they have to always dodge backwards to the side) So you'll miss most of your skillshots and even if you hit them it will only do a relatively low amount of damage. Even if you do kill someone it will have a low impact on the game.
Meanwhile you're squishy and easy to gank and if you miss the skillshots you can get zoned. Lategame you can catch anyone and win a game with oneshotting.
Are you confusing your posters? Ketara et al is arguing that Lux is strong in lane and weak late, whereas Sonnington is arguing the reverse. Your post seems to address both of them into one o.O
On January 12 2015 04:23 Amui wrote:
Zed falls off somewhat once both carries can ignore his ult(hourglass/QSS). That's entering lategame territory. Fizz just straight up scales better than Lux. AoE damage is nice, but until somebodies HP hits zero, they can still contribute to a fight. And don't give me shit about cleaning up afterwards, because zed/fizz will do that many, many times better than a lux will.
The AOE shield is really nice though, could save a lot of people's lives where they otherwise could've died, and that turns into "until somebodies HP hits zero, they can still contribute to a fight," except on your team.
On January 12 2015 04:19 Slayer91 wrote: I don't know why you're asking for rationale when you just plainly fucking ignore some of the most important things about why a champion is strong at certain points of the game (aka base stats and scaling)
look at it this way lategame if you land a Q on a target you use your full burst and any follow up from your team will ensure he will die and its probably a 5v4 teamfight which should be an easy win.
In lane phase you have no teammates to funnel them in to certain areas (e.g you can't run up to you and to the side of the lane if there's other skillshots, they have to always dodge backwards to the side) So you'll miss most of your skillshots and even if you hit them it will only do a relatively low amount of damage. Even if you do kill someone it will have a low impact on the game.
Meanwhile you're squishy and easy to gank and if you miss the skillshots you can get zoned. Lategame you can catch anyone and win a game with oneshotting.
Are you confusing your posters? Ketara et al is arguing that Lux is strong in lane and weak early, whereas Sonnington is arguing the reverse. Your post seems to address both of them into one o.O
Zed falls off somewhat once both carries can ignore his ult(hourglass/QSS). That's entering lategame territory. Fizz just straight up scales better than Lux. AoE damage is nice, but until somebodies HP hits zero, they can still contribute to a fight. And don't give me shit about cleaning up afterwards, because zed/fizz will do that many, many times better than a lux will.
The AOE shield is really nice though, could save a lot of people's lives where they otherwise could've died, and that turns into "until somebodies HP hits zero, they can still contribute to a fight," except on your team.
On January 12 2015 04:19 Slayer91 wrote: I don't know why you're asking for rationale when you just plainly fucking ignore some of the most important things about why a champion is strong at certain points of the game (aka base stats and scaling)
look at it this way lategame if you land a Q on a target you use your full burst and any follow up from your team will ensure he will die and its probably a 5v4 teamfight which should be an easy win.
In lane phase you have no teammates to funnel them in to certain areas (e.g you can't run up to you and to the side of the lane if there's other skillshots, they have to always dodge backwards to the side) So you'll miss most of your skillshots and even if you hit them it will only do a relatively low amount of damage. Even if you do kill someone it will have a low impact on the game.
Meanwhile you're squishy and easy to gank and if you miss the skillshots you can get zoned. Lategame you can catch anyone and win a game with oneshotting.
Are you confusing your posters? Ketara et al is arguing that Lux is strong in lane and weak early, whereas Sonnington is arguing the reverse. Your post seems to address both of them into one o.O
On January 12 2015 04:23 Amui wrote:
Zed falls off somewhat once both carries can ignore his ult(hourglass/QSS). That's entering lategame territory. Fizz just straight up scales better than Lux. AoE damage is nice, but until somebodies HP hits zero, they can still contribute to a fight. And don't give me shit about cleaning up afterwards, because zed/fizz will do that many, many times better than a lux will.
The AOE shield is really nice though, could save a lot of people's lives where they otherwise could've died, and that turns into "until somebodies HP hits zero, they can still contribute to a fight," except on your team.
Okay so, in general, this is how the Lux vs. Fizz and Lux vs. Zed matchups work.
In both cases, Lux is stronger pre 6, and should be bullying. You're ranged, their melee. You can auto them, they can't. You should be able to deny them farm, and if they do a stupid all in, you can get a kill.
Fizz can all in you at level 3, but if you're standing in minions, barrier/shield early to stop his missing HP % damage, and wait to Q him, you'll win the all in. He jumps onto you, you drop E under yourself, if he dodges it with pole you Q him inside your minions.
Zed can't do shit to you pre 6, if he goes in on you you just kill him, maybe you have to use Exhaust but it's fine. The problem with Zed is that you can't deny him farm as well because he will just back off and use shurikens to kill everything, but whatever.
Post 6, Fizz can kill you and you have to be kinda careful in lane, but you can outpush him, and in a teamfight you can do a pretty good job of protecting whoever he targets with shield and snare. If you're far enough ahead from bullying him early you can still win post 6, but if you're behind you might be forced into a passive farm playstyle.
Fizz's damage scales way WAY better than yours though, and he has multiple ways to outplay you and dodge your shit, so you always have to be careful with Fizz later in the game.
Zed is a lot easier. Every time he ults you, if you have either A - Zhonya, B - Exhaust, or C - Flash, he shouldn't be able to get a kill. Going Zhonyas first against Zed lets you bully him and win 1v1 pretty much the whole game long, excepting the window where he has ult and you don't have Zhonya finished yet. If he catches you without summoners during that time period it can be rough, but in general Lux just beats Zed. You'll deny him farm and he'll go off and split push and then you go teamfight with your team.
That's the way these two matchups work.
The basic point though is, you shouldn't go into these lanes assuming you're going to play passive, because you don't have to. If you play properly you can harass and bully these champions potentially the entire game long.
It's really not rocket science. In general, ranged champions are stronger than melee champions in lane at low levels.
I'm trying to read a bit more. So the argument is that you should give up pressure because of some arbitrary notion of scalings? That's pretty much a terrible way to look at the game. The whole reason early game champs are good is because you can snowball an advantage. If early game heroes were only good if the other laner fed you kills every game they wouldn't be so prominent in pro games.
If you're stronger than them in the lategame it doesn't mean you're going to win if you get to lategame. Chances of you getting crushed on other lanes is quite high if they have a roaming assassin, the best thing you can do is harass the shit out of them because they are melee and you are ranged and you can keep them low on farm for as long as possible. Once they can all in you, you can still prevent them from roaming by following them so they can't do anything too risky because you can countergank them if they try to tank some tower shots or something.
However it doesn't mean you should just try to fight them all the time, completely giving up pressure as a mid laner is pretty much the definition of losing the lane though, because its the lane that is most impacted by roaming.
Mages, as a class, outscale assassins in usefulness mid-late game. AOE damage > single target damage especially in a team fight. Again, on top of that, the Lux shield is one of the best tools in the game for denying assassins kills.
Would you mind explaining how Zed doesn't fall off like a brick in the mid to late game? I don't think it's really a debatable topic.Through items he loses his ability to assassinate targets, An assassin who can't assassinate isn't very useful to me. Mid-late you typically see Zed split pushing so he can do something useful for the team.
Zed can never kill you in a 1v1 due to hourglass. Fizz can't 100-0 you under tower, especially if you put points in shield second and take heal, barrier, or exhaust. If you have information on how Zed can reliably kill you after you buy hourglass or how Fizz can 100-0 you under tower. I'd be more than happy to hear it.
I feel like there's some pretty large logical disconnects going on here. Zed split pushes late because he can assassinate people 1v1 fairly easily even with items late game. If you hourglass as Lux against Zed in a 1v1 and you're not next to your team or a tower, he's just going to dodge your spells and then kill you anyways, whether it be through autos or skills. Also items work two ways- if its super late he probably has a hexdrinker/maw and maybe a banshees veil or GA, so even if you do hit your spells, he's not necessarily dead. Lux is almost never going to win a 1v1 where Zed actually manages to get on top of her. The idea that you hourglass and then are 100% a-okay is farcical.
Some of your other points are not particularly well thought out. The AOE vs single target point a bit ridiculous- even if it were true at face value, most assassins have AOE damage- Zed, Talon, Leblanc, Katarina, Kassadin, hell even Pantheon and Fizz have AOE abilities.
On January 12 2015 05:19 Ketara wrote: Okay so, in general, this is how the Lux vs. Fizz and Lux vs. Zed matchups work.
In both cases, Lux is stronger pre 6, and should be bullying. You're ranged, their melee. You can auto them, they can't. You should be able to deny them farm, and if they do a stupid all in, you can get a kill.
Fizz can all in you at level 3, but if you're standing in minions, barrier/shield early to stop his missing HP % damage, and wait to Q him, you'll win the all in. He jumps onto you, you drop E under yourself, if he dodges it with pole you Q him inside your minions.
Zed can't do shit to you pre 6, if he goes in on you you just kill him, maybe you have to use Exhaust but it's fine. The problem with Zed is that you can't deny him farm as well because he will just back off and use shurikens to kill everything, but whatever.
Post 6, Fizz can kill you and you have to be kinda careful in lane, but you can outpush him, and in a teamfight you can do a pretty good job of protecting whoever he targets with shield and snare. If you're far enough ahead from bullying him early you can still win post 6, but if you're behind you might be forced into a passive farm playstyle.
Fizz's damage scales way WAY better than yours though, and he has multiple ways to outplay you and dodge your shit, so you always have to be careful with Fizz later in the game.
Zed is a lot easier. Every time he ults you, if you have either A - Zhonya, B - Exhaust, or C - Flash, he shouldn't be able to get a kill. Going Zhonyas first against Zed lets you bully him and win 1v1 pretty much the whole game long, excepting the window where he has ult and you don't have Zhonya finished yet. If he catches you without summoners during that time period it can be rough, but in general Lux just beats Zed. You'll deny him farm and he'll go off and split push and then you go teamfight with your team.
That's the way these two matchups work.
The basic point though is, you shouldn't go into these lanes assuming you're going to play passive, because you don't have to. If you play properly you can harass and bully these champions potentially the entire game long.
It's really not rocket science. In general, ranged champions are stronger than melee champions in lane at low levels.
Hey that's a great post! Well put together. I can see your point now about taking hybrid runes if you're going to simply auto the enemy over and over again because they're melee. The laning methods you suggest are less proactive and more reactive which is something I totally agree with. Lux can punish mistakes really hard.
One thing that's worth noting are how Fizz players typically take flask and pots to start out with. So even if you're able to auto him without taking minion aggro, it's not a huge win. Also, because you're using your E as a counter engage for Fizz, you can't use it to farm or poke him without opening yourself up to opportunities to attack you.
Fizz also has the majority of the kill pressure in lane. While Lux has to land her binding Fizz just has to land his slow. Setting up a gank is far easier for Fizz than it is for Lux. Which is why I don't see much value in actively bullying the lane. Can you bully him around early game? Sure, but you'll be within his q range and the jungler is probably going to come around the back of you and kill you since you're an immobile mage who's walking around autoing the enemy. While conversely your jungler is likely thinking you're vs a Fizz with crazy mobility and a gank wouldn't be worth the effort.
About Zed, I pretty much totally agree with you. I've gotten first blood on cocky Zeds who've used their shadow to gap close into a minion wave and ate a light binding to the face. Although, that's a far cry away from walking up to him and killing him of course.
A few caveats are involved with Zed using his shadow. He can use it to push or get harass down through a minion wave which can be difficult to answer back to. Since he's an energy user he'll won't ever go OOM and doesn't need to back for mana. Generally, it's not that big of a deal though dodging shurikens isn't very hard. Also the same provisions involved with Fizz's kill potential with the jungler are involved with a Zed lane. Which again is why I don't suggest bullying the Zed. When you bully enemy champs around it usually sets yourself up for being ganked due to your lane positioning.
@zer0das Regarding the hourglass effect. It really depends on how the fight goes. It depends on how many procs of E he can hit you with, if the shurikens are hitting you or going through minions, when he decides to pop ghost blade, and how big your shield is. It's easier for Lux to land a full combo on a Zed when he ults, than it is for Zed to do the same to Lux. And of course, the hourglass is going to negate quite a bit of his damage either his upfront or just the ult proc. In either event you're not likely to die unless you're making some huge mistakes.
Lux's aoe is easy to hit, safe to launch, and is simply large in size. Vs the AOE of assassins almost always being much lower range, or requiring them to go melee which is super risky. I mean how do I take that seriously when you compare Lux's AOE to Fizz's AOE? It's like you're comparing apples to oranges.
It's not my argument, you're the one who said AOE wins games without qualifying it. And your response is my point- your comparison is inane.
I think you're nuts if you think landing a binding on a Zed who ults you is easy. He can just shadow out immediately unless you time it absolutely perfectly. Maybe in LAN that's doable, but to call it easy seems like an exaggeration to me, because I don't trust myself to land that at 70 ping at all. Also if you risk landing the binding, you probably just ate his entire combo.
Yeah AoE can be strong but it's not the reason zed and fizz run into problems, melee squishy champions are always going to run into issues when people start grouping because you can just cc and focus them immediately.
They get away with it in midgame when they have a large level advantage and the adc and support don't have a whole lot of damage, not to mention a full 5 man group is rarer.
Also from my experience Fizz stays strong throughout the game and zed only runs into issues because of QSS/zhonyas, their massive escape skills and huge burst lets them overcome most of their weaknesses and split is great for splitpushing too.
Lux can be pretty good against squishy teams lategame (or when enemy teams dont' have much damage and your shields make an impact) but she's not de-facto a strong champion at any point because she's skillshot reliant and I wouldn't prefer to have lux over fizz or zed if it meant sacrificing the early and midgame map pressure.
On January 13 2015 00:33 Slayer91 wrote: Yeah AoE can be strong but it's not the reason zed and fizz run into problems, melee squishy champions are always going to run into issues when people start grouping because you can just cc and focus them immediately.
They get away with it in midgame when they have a large level advantage and the adc and support don't have a whole lot of damage, not to mention a full 5 man group is rarer.
Also from my experience Fizz stays strong throughout the game and zed only runs into issues because of QSS/zhonyas, their massive escape skills and huge burst lets them overcome most of their weaknesses and split is great for splitpushing too.
Lux can be pretty good against squishy teams lategame (or when enemy teams dont' have much damage and your shields make an impact) but she's not de-facto a strong champion at any point because she's skillshot reliant and I wouldn't prefer to have lux over fizz or zed if it meant sacrificing the early and midgame map pressure.
Yeah that's a valid point about their team fighting.
I think Lux is pretty strong during the mid game though. I consider the mid game to be the the point when laning phase ends and teams start to group and take objectives. Once she gets one item she's pretty beastly.
That's quite fluid though, it all depends on things like waveclear, how well people can escape ganks etc.
Laning phase can last a really long time if they've got people who you can't easily gank or their mid can easily waveclear. Sometimes grouping happens but in a sort of skirmishy way where people come to 4 man dive or something and big fights break out.
What you want as lux is just the ARAM situation of fights in your jungle where you can hit skillshots, maybe a overbold towerdive where you can snipe someone with lazer.
What I'm saying is that if you don't make an attempt to shut down a mid player who wants to roam, and you stay in lane and let him roam, it creates exactly the sort of game you don't want, because you can easily be caught if you yourself roam around and your team can't group if they are being ganked or pushed to their towers constantly.
On January 13 2015 08:38 Slayer91 wrote: That's quite fluid though, it all depends on things like waveclear, how well people can escape ganks etc.
Laning phase can last a really long time if they've got people who you can't easily gank or their mid can easily waveclear. Sometimes grouping happens but in a sort of skirmishy way where people come to 4 man dive or something and big fights break out.
What you want as lux is just the ARAM situation of fights in your jungle where you can hit skillshots, maybe a overbold towerdive where you can snipe someone with lazer.
What I'm saying is that if you don't make an attempt to shut down a mid player who wants to roam, and you stay in lane and let him roam, it creates exactly the sort of game you don't want, because you can easily be caught if you yourself roam around and your team can't group if they are being ganked or pushed to their towers constantly.
Yeah, mid game can happen at different points. Sometimes it's 10 minutes, sometimes it's 20 minutes. Generally it happens when a bot lane takes a tower and goes mid.
That's interesting. I guess with that sort of shutdown mindset it would make sense people hate playing against Fizz and Zed. With that outlook, that puts -you- on the timer to shut down the enemy before they roam. Which might put pressure on you to make risky plays that probably won't pan out well. I can see how that would obviously work, but I don't agree that's the only way. Good map awareness and communication is just as effective a counter to roaming as shutting down the enemy laner.
On January 13 2015 08:38 Slayer91 wrote: That's quite fluid though, it all depends on things like waveclear, how well people can escape ganks etc.
Laning phase can last a really long time if they've got people who you can't easily gank or their mid can easily waveclear. Sometimes grouping happens but in a sort of skirmishy way where people come to 4 man dive or something and big fights break out.
What you want as lux is just the ARAM situation of fights in your jungle where you can hit skillshots, maybe a overbold towerdive where you can snipe someone with lazer.
What I'm saying is that if you don't make an attempt to shut down a mid player who wants to roam, and you stay in lane and let him roam, it creates exactly the sort of game you don't want, because you can easily be caught if you yourself roam around and your team can't group if they are being ganked or pushed to their towers constantly.
Yeah, mid game can happen at different points. Sometimes it's 10 minutes, sometimes it's 20 minutes. Generally it happens when a bot lane takes a tower and goes mid.
That's interesting. I guess with that sort of shutdown mindset it would make sense people hate playing against Fizz and Zed. With that outlook, that puts -you- on the timer to shut down the enemy before they roam. Which might put pressure on you to make risky plays that probably won't pan out well. I can see how that would obviously work, but I don't agree that's the only way. Good map awareness and communication is just as effective a counter to roaming as shutting down the enemy laner.
It isn't. It doesn't matter if you ward, because if the enemy jungler+mid walks into your jungle to contest something, at the end of the day you're not making the play, they are. Map awareness and communication doesn't make up for the fact that while your jungle entrances may be warded, everything within is not, and neither you, nor your jungler can go facechecking bushes without risking a death against zed/fizz. Sure you can slowly scout everything with E, or ward your own jungle, but now you've completely given up map control and just trying to stop the snowball.
You don't have to shut down a laner, but if he is allowed to shove the wave go to another lane and be back in time for the next wave if it nothing happens (~30s so its reasonable) it mightn't matter how good your communication is because maybe your laners have to play passively (they hate that btw) and then the other guy can shove lane and suddenly a 2 or 3 man dive is possible. If your jungle is on that side of the map its suddenly a risk to get invaded so he doesn't want to be on that side either.
It's not guaranteed to have a bad effect but there a tons of things that can go wrong when the enemy mid can leave lane as he pleases.
On January 12 2015 05:26 Slayer91 wrote: I'm trying to read a bit more. So the argument is that you should give up pressure because of some arbitrary notion of scalings? That's pretty much a terrible way to look at the game. The whole reason early game champs are good is because you can snowball an advantage. If early game heroes were only good if the other laner fed you kills every game they wouldn't be so prominent in pro games.
If you're stronger than them in the lategame it doesn't mean you're going to win if you get to lategame. Chances of you getting crushed on other lanes is quite high if they have a roaming assassin, the best thing you can do is harass the shit out of them because they are melee and you are ranged and you can keep them low on farm for as long as possible. Once they can all in you, you can still prevent them from roaming by following them so they can't do anything too risky because you can countergank them if they try to tank some tower shots or something.
However it doesn't mean you should just try to fight them all the time, completely giving up pressure as a mid laner is pretty much the definition of losing the lane though, because its the lane that is most impacted by roaming.
Well it's pretty champion dependent though, cuz if you're something like Poppy or Jax who's a late scaling beast, going even in lane is more than fine.
Anyhow, I don't see how Lux scales harder than fizz or zed... She can't really counter their split push against either of them. Her item timings are all weaker than theirs. The second fizz get lichbane, Lux gets 100-0'd all the time, and Zed with BotRK should just rofl stomp Lux in the same way.
I could see an argument that her augmentation with shields and her AoE makes her better in lategame teamfights, but in those cases the Fizz's and Zed's abilities get diminished in lategame because more along the lines of defensive item picks from the ADC, and less so Lux's W.
It's not a matter of going even in lane or not going even in lane or whatever like you can apply to top lane. (At any rate jax isn't really a lategame champ, he's got good sustained damage for a bruiser but nothing special, he is a pretty strong laner against a lot of people, and he isn't played when he can't do well in lane)
In top lane even if you are nasus farming at tower 24/7, roaming to try to kill a midlaner who can farm from tower range is a pretty difficult thing to do,you're playing some bruiser and you pretty much have to go behind them or even from behind their tower to get a kill and it's pretty risky. It's far more dangerous for an assassin who can threaten to roam bot (much easier kills, 2x the impact as well) top, or either jungle so not only is your champ more suited to the types of fights, you have a much easier time coordinating with your jungler.
On January 13 2015 08:38 Slayer91 wrote: That's quite fluid though, it all depends on things like waveclear, how well people can escape ganks etc.
Laning phase can last a really long time if they've got people who you can't easily gank or their mid can easily waveclear. Sometimes grouping happens but in a sort of skirmishy way where people come to 4 man dive or something and big fights break out.
What you want as lux is just the ARAM situation of fights in your jungle where you can hit skillshots, maybe a overbold towerdive where you can snipe someone with lazer.
What I'm saying is that if you don't make an attempt to shut down a mid player who wants to roam, and you stay in lane and let him roam, it creates exactly the sort of game you don't want, because you can easily be caught if you yourself roam around and your team can't group if they are being ganked or pushed to their towers constantly.
Yeah, mid game can happen at different points. Sometimes it's 10 minutes, sometimes it's 20 minutes. Generally it happens when a bot lane takes a tower and goes mid.
That's interesting. I guess with that sort of shutdown mindset it would make sense people hate playing against Fizz and Zed. With that outlook, that puts -you- on the timer to shut down the enemy before they roam. Which might put pressure on you to make risky plays that probably won't pan out well. I can see how that would obviously work, but I don't agree that's the only way. Good map awareness and communication is just as effective a counter to roaming as shutting down the enemy laner.
It isn't. It doesn't matter if you ward, because if the enemy jungler+mid walks into your jungle to contest something, at the end of the day you're not making the play, they are. Map awareness and communication doesn't make up for the fact that while your jungle entrances may be warded, everything within is not, and neither you, nor your jungler can go facechecking bushes without risking a death against zed/fizz. Sure you can slowly scout everything with E, or ward your own jungle, but now you've completely given up map control and just trying to stop the snowball.
Jungle contests aren't as cut and dry as you make them seem. Some factors include the power spike of your jungler, the HP of either jungler, who starts the buff first, what abilities are on CD, etc. Clean and well coordinated jungle invades are really difficult to pull off in soloq due to its nature. If you're asking how good Lux is at jungle fights. From my experience Lux isn't bad at jungle fights or helping out your jungler escape from their own invades due to her utility and how easy it is to land banding from FOW.
On January 13 2015 09:45 Sonnington wrote: Jungle contests aren't as cut and dry as you make them seem. Some factors include the power spike of your jungler, the HP of either jungler, who starts the buff first, what abilities are on CD, etc
I don't think you posted anything about specific jungle match ups. Not to mention even if Zed/Fizz just runs in by himself they will be getting vision control and information.
On January 13 2015 09:45 Sonnington wrote: Clean and well coordinated jungle invades are really difficult to pull off in soloq due to its nature.
By this logic we could also assume that pinging for your team mates doesn't mean that Zed/Fizz won't kill them any ways?
On January 13 2015 09:45 Sonnington wrote: If you're asking how good Lux is at jungle fights. From my experience Lux isn't bad at jungle fights or helping out your jungler escape from their own invades due to her utility and how easy it is to land banding from FOW.
Great your jungler escaped, now there is zero pressure on the map and your top/bot lane can get pushed in'd and/or all in'd.
I think you are underestimating what a Zed/Fizz player can and will do. Sure being able to snowball is great and in that case the game is probably over, but if your letting any of the "meta" assassins free farm your carries in team fights are not going to be alive for very long. Specifically Zed is strong because he is able to farm with Q and not get shut down in lane compared to other assassins. Yes he does "fall off" once everyone has zhonya or QSS but if your AD runs into Zed QSS isn't going to matter in the majority of cases. Zhonya? Sure for certain champions it makes it a lot easier to kill Zed but Lux isn't one of those. It's not like Zed isn't going to purchase a single MR item, not to mention at best they are going to walk away while at worst they will just wait and kill you.
As for Zed in team fights, Zed is arguably one of the more versatile assassins.Sure you don't have the AoE combo of Talon but your still able to put out a lot of damage with triple shadow Q/E. Late game your still going to have decent scaling with your % hp passive, and free AD from "W" passive.
edit 1: Also I am guessing your probably talking about team fights, but it's not like Zed doesn't have a team that is diving or doing damage to your back line as well. If they can't instantly kill someone they are just going to clean up fights which is what most people will do any ways. As for exhaust, cleanse and QSS exist.
edit 2: Reading some of your replies, I think you heavily under value the importance of having control of mid lane. Not to mention you seem to be assuming the other team is not going to contest vision.