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Lissandra – The Ice Witch
Lore + Show Spoiler +Lissandra's magic twists the pure power of ice into something dark and terrible. With the force of her black ice, she does more than freeze - she impales and crushes those who oppose her. To the terrified denizens of the north, she is known only as ''The Ice Witch.'' The truth is much more sinister: Lissandra is a corruptor of nature who plots to unleash an ice age on the world.
Centuries ago, Lissandra betrayed her tribe to evil creatures, known as the Frozen Watchers, in return for power. That was the last day that warm blood ran through her veins. With her corrupted tribesmen and the strength of the Watchers, she swept across the land like a terrible blizzard. As her empire spread, the world grew colder and ice choked the land. When the Watchers were defeated by ancient heroes, Lissandra did not lose faith and swore to prepare the world for their return.
Lissandra worked to purge all knowledge of the Watchers from the world. Using magic to take human form, she masqueraded as numerous seers and elders. Over the course of generations, she rewrote the stories of the Freljord, and so the history of its people changed. Today the fragmented retellings of the Watchers are seen as children's tales. But this deception wasn't enough - Lissandra also needed an army.
She set her sights on the noble Frostguard tribe. Lissandra knew corrupting the Frostguard would take centuries, and so she launched her greatest deception. She murdered and stole the identity of the Frostguard leader. Then she slowly began to warp the tribe's proud traditions. When her human form grew old, she faked her own death and then murdered her successor to steal her identity. With each generation, the Frostguard grew more insular, cruel and twisted. Today, the world still sees them as a noble and peaceful tribe that guards against evil creatures like the Ice Witch. In truth, they now serve the witch and long for the glorious return of the Watchers.
Lissandra knows that on that day nations will fall and the world will be reborn in ice.
''Close your eyes and let the cold take you.'' -- Lissandra
When to pick Lissandra
- Enemy team has no instant crowd control
- Enemy team has multiple melee
- Enemy team is squishy
- You need peel. Liss ulti/W is pretty good at that.
If any of these are true, then Lissandra could be one of the best picks to fill a solo lane. She brings massive teamfight presence through her crowd control and high burst, ability to get deep into the enemy backline and lock down an important member, and best of all, make almost every single melee in the game cry if they have to lane against her.
Current meta Top lane liss is initiating/lane bully. Build is morello's+cdr boots+zhonya, Your KDA will probably suffer, but you'll win the game.
Midlane liss is a bursty ganker/roamer. You'll lose to many longer range champs, and your kill threat is reduced in this lane, but you generally go sorc boots instead, and aim to blow people up in the initiation.
Runes and Masteries I like the rather standard Mpen/armor/MR/AP setup. There is merit to running a greedier page without the MR, in exchange for either MR/lvl, Flat AP or AP/lvl if the enemy team has a lot of physical burst and not a lot of magic damage, for example with Riven top and Pantheon jungle.
For masteries, I find that 21/6/3 is better for top lane, and for middle, 21/0/9 taking the extra movement speed and either buff duration or Bscuit. The top lane variant is slightly more defensive and helps to mitigate damage when stuff does go wrong, and provides a bit of HP sustain as well. An alternative is to go deep enough into the utility tree to pick up strength of spirit, which provides higher value per point, especially with a RoA build.
http://www.lolpro.com/season-4/1506-mastery-calculator#7asAgmvGv7QgI http://www.lolpro.com/season-4/1506-mastery-calculator#7asAgmvdjCUw
Laning
Skill order QWQE - vs. Melee/short ranged QWEQ - vs. Something like Ali, where you could you need the escape, but you'll push lane hard enough to hit 3 before jungler can get to top. QEQW - vs. long ranged stuff where W won't do anything.
Note that E scales better than W does, but W is usually maxed first due to the higher utility and more consistent damage.
R>Q>W>E, unless you just need to clear waves, in which case you can get E up to 2 or 3 rank so you can clear all the ranged creeps with a single QE, and the melee's with 2 Q or Q+E+autos.
Middle Lissandra is a much better fit top lane than middle unless picked into a melee such as Zed, Yasuo, Fizz etc. Her relatively short range, and the positional requirement of her harass make middle much less favorable against the longer ranged mages with zone control midlane such as Orianna, Ziggs and Syndra. Your goal here usually is more farm and control orientated, using your strong pushing to roam and make plays.
Top This is where Lissandra excels. The land of the bruisers and tanks, which allows for the one sided trading to happen. With a wide variety of builds available, you can easily adapt to most opponents. In addition, the skills combine to really flesh out the frost mage, the bane of melee. Whether it is a Jax or Maokai or Alistar you have the tools to disengage and punish them for engaging on you. You will push hard most of the time, so ward up and save E unless you know where the jungler is. If you do know though, you can use E very, very aggressively to port past people to drop off another one or two Q’s and a bunch of autoattacks if they attempt to engage and the retreat.
Generally speaking, you want to harass with autos and Q, and save W/E. W allows you to disengage, and E allows you to reengage or gives you a second disengage. By level 9, every wave should hit the enemy turret, and you can either roam/TP to make plays, or harass the enemy under the turret while warding up. Be mindful of your passive, because it lets you lay on harass without worrying too much about CSing.
Teamfighting While Lissandra has strong initiation and burst, she shouldn’t be the sole initiator in most cases. Unless you’re outrageously fed, or have a DFG you’re unlikely to kill somebody with just ult WQ. Maybe if you also tag them with E, but that’s more difficult. The goal should always be to lock down the most fed member of the enemy team, while simultaneously hitting as many people as possible with Q and W, before casting hourglass to wait out CD’s, and get off a second rotation.
If at all possible, try to think like a Fiddle. If you can E in from an unexpected angle and chunk an important squishy to 30% HP in the first rotation of spells, the chances of you winning the fight if your teammates follow is extremely high.
Item Choices(Priority)
Start Doran’s Ring and Potion x2.
RoA – My personal favourite for top lane liss, but optional. Skip on midlane liss. This item is optional, but it is definitely one of the two good items for laning against melee's(infinite Q spam!)
Hourglass – Core. Buy it every game. If you can save up enough money for a NLR on first back, I would go for this first, otherwise I would build either RoA or Morello's first. Allows you to E in, combo somebody and then wait for team to follow up on your initiation, or even just buy time for your cooldowns. Alternatively, if you get caught, gives you 5 seconds of invulnerability. Absolutely must have because your kit requires you to move close as a squishy mage.
Morellonomicon – Better than Athene’s. You don’t need the mana sustain that badly, even if you skipped RoA and this is cheaper. This lets you get your ultimate to 48s CD lategame, which is very short for such a powerful ult. It also lets you permanently slow somebody with chained Q’s. Much easier buildup than Zhonya's, which is why I rate it so highly. Both codex and forgotten idol do a ton for letting you spam Q on a melee until they give up on lane. I would rush this item for midlane.
Void Staff – Important, but because of the nature of Lissandra’s kit, it’s going to come as the 3rd or 4th big item.
Deathcap – Unless you’re fed, this is going to be a luxury item, coming 5th or 6th . There are a lot of things that do more for you than a Deathcap.
DFG – Do you want to blow people up? Because that’s how you blow people up. You now play like an assassin instead of an initiator until you pick up hourglass, at which point you can do both. Very snowball dependant though. Can replace morello's with this lategame.
Abyssal Scepter - If the enemy team has a lot of magic damage, this can be a very good pickup, especially if you have another big magic damage source on your team. In most cases you can apply the aura to much of the enemy team from when you enter the fight until you die.
Rylai – Only if you skipped RoA due to matchup. Otherwise don’t bother.
Banshees – Only required if they have instant hard CC (pretty much only fid ulti) or a TON of magic poke. Otherwise you should be able to cast everything and Zhonya before the CC goes off.
Note: This is just a framework. It can be changed depending on the game. For example, delay Hourglass if you're fed enough, with enough levels and HP to just tank with base stats. If you can use that gold for a Deathcap or DFG for example, and just take over the game by oneshotting somebody every time you have ultimate up, then by all means, do it.
Boots CDR boots or Sorc boots. CDR if you intend on roaming a lot and teamfighting constantly, sorcs if you want to lane and be more bursty.
Matchups
Alistar - Just make sure you always Q when he comes in for a headbutt auto, and then play aggressively because he can't do it again for a while. It's important to shove the first couple of waves to the turret so you can ward, and hit level 3 quickly to pick up a point in claw. If he headbutt pulvs pre-6, QW while kiting away, and then E through him because he'll most likely retreat. He has no cooldowns at this point so take a quick look at the minimap to make sure jungler isn't there. Port to the claw and continue autoing/Qing. Post 6 you always need a way to get out of melee range assuming he ults, so try to keep 2 of WER off CD. You can win the lane so hard with Q harass that you shouldn't need the other spells offensively unless you're trying for a kill. Jax - Sit close to your creep wave at level 1, either he leveled counterstrike, and can't get to you, or he leveled leap, and you can easily outtrade him if he leaps, as well as harass the crap out of him. Level 2+, don't W until after counterstrike has gone off. That way you can disengage, lock him down and chase him. Pretty easy lane to kill throughout. Irelia - Harder than Jax. This is where the RoA build really comes in handy, because otherwise true damage wrecks you. Keep track of her Q CD(If she used it on you, you can go ham for 14 seconds, or ~3-4 Q's). Keep her shoved and continue harassing underneath turret. Watch your positioning so she can't get an easy stun off, and if she does get on you, WE and port away. You can't out trade her in melee range, so be careful. Jungler ganks can snowball this lane hard in either direction Jayce - Shove him in, and harass him as much as possible. You can blow him up at level 6 with ease because most of the time, all he'll have is Dblade+tear. Maokai - You can outharass/outpush him, but be careful because his gank assist is very strong. Try and save E until after his W so that you won't get rooted and be unable to port. He can't get onto you otherwise. You can force him to delay his core with an early cowl, although he is difficult to kill because of the sustain and good ranged farming strength.
Mid lane almost all of them involve shoving->roam. While there are some hard matchups that aren't long range mages(Talon), most of the time you generally shit on mid lane melee, and have trouble in ranged matchups because your range isn't too great. You're also not a very good wraith killer, so just abuse your pushing and strong roam.
Tips and Tricks One of your biggest chances to kill is right when you turn 6. If you push the lane slightly and you’ve harassed the other person down a bit, position yourself to last hit a creep(the one that will get you 6) and get on top of your opponent with E. Level your ult the instant the creep dies, port to the claw and ult>QautoWautoauto (ignite asap if you took it). If you did this correctly, you should kill or blow summoners, without a chance at retaliation because they haven’t hit 6 yet.
You can E over the nexus, and you will port if you’re over halfway. Cast E, sit in fountain and heal a bit more, then port. Saves 3-4 seconds every time you base.
When you ult somebody and the burst is less important(such as a gank or a pick), you can wait a second before using W. This will lock them up for longer and allow you get get an extra second of crowd control, and a second Q off along with extra auto attacks.
When you E to escape, walk away from the E. You will take less damage from somebody who wants to go after the E, and also give yourself an avenue to outplay.
Pro play http://www.twitch.tv/ongamenet/b/591498426 - IM Lilac playing top lane Liss. Not hard carry, but you get to see how ult dependent she is for teamfighting. Hourglass is just enough to let him get off combo and one extra Q before dying every single fight. RoA can allow you to survive long enough for more than that, but once again, it's a toplane item, not mid.
About me - NA Porouscloud - Currently D5, Liss is one of my mains+ Show Spoiler +
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
Instead of "Reasons to pick Lissandra" I'd rename the section to something like "When to pick Lissandra?" After the former you'd expect a list of Lissandra's strengths first, after the latter a list of conditions under which Lissandra should be picked. In the laning top section "maokai" is not capitalized Extremely importantly, you're missing a section on masteries and runes!
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IIRC in GD when Liss was popular the last time around, there were some discussion about Q vs W max first - the argument was that W has static mana cost, so one free Q + W would clear the wave instantly for only 50 mana. Any comments?
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RoA is terrible on lissandra, it delays your cdr/dmg items by a lot [athenes,morellos,dfg] where you really want a fiendish codex early on[first buy] to help with the cd on your ult/shoving so you can roam. The catalyst might help you lane slightly better but in the end it's not worth it to invest so much into an item when typically you are going to be going zhonyas as your second/third item. Mana isn't really an issue at all as long as you have good mana management and if you find you are constantly out of mana and teamfights are still going on either you are completely missing every spell or they have some really god tier tank lineup.
W max is terrible even against melee heroes, you need to max Q in order to have a strong lane presence[not to mention the CD on W is terrible once it's maxed 10 seconds vs 3 sec CD Q] and ever since the buff to CD on Q wave clearing is not a problem at all once you hit +7 two Qs[free+85 mana] and 1-2 autos one each melee clears the wave.
Another tip is to have your ult on a quick cast+self cast button so if you're being targeted you can quickly just ult yourself instead of potentially fucking up and ulting the enemy by mistake.
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Personally on Liss I never get CDR, I go straight for Zhonya+Abyssal pretty much every game.
I don't see much point to CDR on Lissandra. Late game when you engage you use all your spells and then go immune for 5 seconds and after that your Q is up and your W is almost up.
End build is usually something like Zhonya + Abyssal + Void, then some other tank item (Randuin/Banshee) and either a Deathcap if I'm fed or a Liandry if I'm not.
And yeah, no rune/mastery sections in the guide, no matchups, seems pretty bare bones IMO.
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Building straight zhonyas is always awkward. Best case scenario is that you get a NLR on first back worst case scenario is you go back with 900-1k gold and you either get another dorans/flask/boots/pots/wards variation and end up delaying your first big item[zhonyas] or you're sitting on cloth/amp/pots/wards. Going CDR build allows you to get a codex on your first back which then can be built into either DFG/Athenes/Morellos. CDR build allows for a lot of flexibility if you start snowballing go straight into a dfg or if you're doing okay just go into a 20% cdr item. CDR early on helps a lot with roaming[ult/shoving/moving around the map with E] which is what you want to be doing if you're mid.
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Here's a question.
Lets say that Fiendish Codex is a strong opener.
I don't really see the big need for mana regen on Lissandra. 1-2 drings and the occasional potion is, IMO, all she needs. This is why I don't like going Morello or Athenes.
What about Banner of Command, Twin Shadows or Will of the Ancients?
For example, if you assume that Morello is better than Athenes, and the mana regen isn't any good, how does Morello compare to these items?
They all give 80 AP.
They all cost a similar amount.
Is the Morello passive as good as the Banner passive/active? Is the Twin Shadows movespeed/active or the spell vamp on WotA worth 10% CDR?
I think this is an interesting discussion.
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Morellos is simply the best item choice for 20% CDR. The merit in going such a build path is indeed the 20% CDR which makes me not even consider TS/WotA in terms of raw stats.
The spell vamp from WotA is worthless, early on it really doesn't do anything because you're ideally playing a shove>roam style or you're trying to combo the enemy laner and spell vamp doesn't help with that. Come late game the spell vamp is worthless when you consider the amount of time you spend in zhonyas and potentially ult.
TS doesn't really fit Liss well either. A lot of her killing potential comes from taking them by surprise with a E>combo or them face checking a brush and she is really good at chasing targets down already so the passive/+ms isn't necessary at all for her to kill shit.
DFG ap/active makes it worth the 10% CDR.
It is true the Liss doesn't have terrible mana issues which is why you don't go Athenes and 99% of the time I go Morellos. Prior to the Athenes nerf it was slightly more useful due to the increased MR. The passive on Banner isn't really useful, I consider the active to be pretty trash. When you look at Morellos it gives the same raw stats as Banner in addition to the mana regen, it's easier to piece together even though it gives less ap compared to the blasting wand. The Morello passive imo is what makes it a lot better than Banner, when you look at every top laner[mao, nid, ali, irelia, etc.] they all have some healing mechanic + adcs + the heal summoner while neither passive is game changing Morellos is a lot more useful.
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The banner active is really good when it's used in the perfect circumstance, IE when you can push the lane, the enemy champion isn't there, and there just happens to be a cannon minion with you.
My problem with banner is always that you just don't seem to get situations to use it that are worthwhile. If it had a huge range and you could use it on a sidelane cannon minion without actually walking to the lane, it'd be a lot better.
The passive on Banner is also really good when your team has Annie/Yorick/Heimer/Zyra, but those aren't played often these days.
I do think it's a good point that the Morello passive is good against a lot of common top laners these days, and I agree that TS/WotA don't seem like a good fit for Liss. But I think given the right team comps, Banner might be situationally more useful than Morello.
The other option would be to just buy the Amp Tome and not upgrade it till after you get other items.
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Just woke up, slowly going through and editing/reading stuff
On August 25 2014 22:08 aurawashere wrote: RoA is terrible on lissandra, it delays your cdr/dmg items by a lot [athenes,morellos,dfg] where you really want a fiendish codex early on[first buy] to help with the cd on your ult/shoving so you can roam. The catalyst might help you lane slightly better but in the end it's not worth it to invest so much into an item when typically you are going to be going zhonyas as your second/third item. Mana isn't really an issue at all as long as you have good mana management and if you find you are constantly out of mana and teamfights are still going on either you are completely missing every spell or they have some really god tier tank lineup. In the current state of top lane(which is where I generally play Liss), RoA isn't bad. You can bully almost every top right now even while going RoA, and it gives you a fairly beefy top laner if you can get a RoA by the 12-13 minute mark(Don't miss CS!). I find it useful because most fights after hourglass wears off you'll still be next to members of the enemy team. Having that extra 30%+ HP is really useful in those scenarios.
Midlane I would agree, double dorans into morello(Or hourglass vs. AD) is probably better, and lets you have much higher teamfight impact early on, as well as increasing the strength of your roams.
On August 25 2014 22:43 Ketara wrote: Personally on Liss I never get CDR, I go straight for Zhonya+Abyssal pretty much every game.
I don't see much point to CDR on Lissandra. Late game when you engage you use all your spells and then go immune for 5 seconds and after that your Q is up and your W is almost up.
End build is usually something like Zhonya + Abyssal + Void, then some other tank item (Randuin/Banshee) and either a Deathcap if I'm fed or a Liandry if I'm not.
And yeah, no rune/mastery sections in the guide, no matchups, seems pretty bare bones IMO. CDR is good because it lets you Q again immediately after using hourglass, and also reduces the CD on E and W to a point where you have a realistic chance at casting it more than once in a fight. One rotation is nice, but being able to initiate, hourglass, Q again flash out, and then E in again for a QW is something that really does happen.
Not really a fan of ulting myself. I'd much rather lock down a target for my team to follow up on, use hourglass and Q again. 5 seconds of immunity is nice and all, but a dead carry is worth more. Your combo does roughly 70% of a squishies health in an even game, so all it takes is a little extraneous damage and they die. There are situations where it's good to ult yourself(initiating into a filled baron pit for example), but most of the time, the stun is worth ulting an enemy for.
Runes/masteries section added, matchups I'll add a few common ones for top, and more if meta changes.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
Be a bit more clear about explaining the runes, use a general statement and then you can optionally add examples:
... There is merit to running a greedier page without the MR, in exchange for either MR/lvl, Flat AP or AP/lvl if it's like riven top and pantheon jungle. should be something more like
... There is merit to running a greedier page without the MR, in exchange for either MR/lvl, Flat AP or AP/lvl if the enemy team has a lot of physical burst and not a lot of magic damage, for example with Riven top and Pantheon jungle. Using something that's actually used (like Kha'Zix) instead of Pantheon jungle in the example would probably be even better. Also explain why you like to have different masteries depending on when you top and middle. Your runes are self-explanatory enough, but the reason for changing masteries is not so clear and needs to be adressed.
because it let's you lay on in the top laning section, should be "lets" without an apostrophe.
Also, generally inconsistent capitalization of names in LoL. Champion names and item names should always be capitalized, unless using a "nickname" for an item (biscuit, red pot, green ward etc.), in which case they generally shouldn't be.
Add your LoL ID in the "about me" section, I know that it's written in your sig but you might change it later.
Nowhere near as comprehensive as a Smogon grammar check would be, but then again I'm just randomly chilling here at 6AM waiting for my life to eventually end.
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Pootie too good!4331 Posts
With the recent nerfs to W, have you considered maxing E second? W seems like a one point wonder to me now. The ratio, base, CD, and root time scale kind of poorly.
With you rushing RoA the increasing mana cost of E doesn't seem like it would be much of a hinderence. Zipping around every 12 seconds (more with CD) at mid game seems more useful. It's also the better wave clearing ability, assuming it's safe to do so. But I can see why maxing W second is useful despite the poorer scaling because you're more likely to do champion damage with W rather than E.
Just my humble opinion with no league experience whatsoever for the last two years so take it with a salt mine.
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On August 26 2014 15:02 JonGalt wrote: With the recent nerfs to W, have you considered maxing E second? W seems like a one point wonder to me now. The ratio, base, CD, and root time scale kind of poorly.
With you rushing RoA the increasing mana cost of E doesn't seem like it would be much of a hinderence. Zipping around every 12 seconds (more with CD) at mid game seems more useful. It's also the better wave clearing ability, assuming it's safe to do so. But I can see why maxing W second is useful despite the poorer scaling because you're more likely to do champion damage with W rather than E.
Just my humble opinion with no league experience whatsoever for the last two years so take it with a salt mine. Most matchups you won't need E to clear, and in teamfights the chances of hitting a squishy first rotation with E is minimal. While it's up to 20 base damage and 0.2 ratio higher, I don't feel it's worthwhile because the instant you port, the claw disappears. It's pretty difficult to land the E unless somebody else is initiating fights.
Also Scip I fixed most of the things you listed.
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On August 26 2014 15:02 JonGalt wrote: With the recent nerfs to W, have you considered maxing E second? W seems like a one point wonder to me now. The ratio, base, CD, and root time scale kind of poorly.
With you rushing RoA the increasing mana cost of E doesn't seem like it would be much of a hinderence. Zipping around every 12 seconds (more with CD) at mid game seems more useful. It's also the better wave clearing ability, assuming it's safe to do so. But I can see why maxing W second is useful despite the poorer scaling because you're more likely to do champion damage with W rather than E.
Just my humble opinion with no league experience whatsoever for the last two years so take it with a salt mine.
The reason why you max W over E is because it's difficult to actually hit people with E. You use it as a gapcloser and you don't actually get to gapclose with it twice in a fight till it's level 5.
W you actually hit people with.
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Some thoughts (Liss is my most played this season):
- Blade Queen has the best splash, but doesn't live up to it in game. Bloodstone has the worst splash, but looks best in game.
- Masteries: I run 22/0/8 from mid and 13/9/8 when in top. I like the extra defence because generally you aren't bursting top laners, so the extra defence comes in handy over raw damage.
- Runes: I think you have to run Hybrid pen marks, especially vs a Melee. You will be doing a lot of Auto attacking. Consider CDR/level glyphs if you aren't desperate for MR. Having Q CD below two seconds is brutal vs some champs/comps.
- Build: Liss has one of the most varied build paths in the game, and it's part of why I like her. You really are able to adapt to the enemy team. I find myself constantly changing what I build. You covered most options, the biggest debate really comes down to RoA or Morello. Generally I find I go RoA for top for the extra tankiness, Morello in mid. RoA is good mid if you have like a Fiora or Panth top who isn't going to be a massive tank. She is one of the few champs who still makes effective use of Abyssal Scepter. You're really underselling Rylais. Q slowing for even more really makes her straight up abusive vs some champs, and more health is always good on her. Also you should try Liandry's some time as well. I can't tell you what my typical item build on Liss is, because it's different nearly every game.
- Match ups: She's insta lock status vs Zed, Fizz and Yasuo for me. Pick her vs the likes of Darius, Singed or Trynd for hilarity. Vs the long range picks like Ori and Ziggs, you'll pretty much have to just farm, but you do have some of the best gank support in the game. Never pick her into Kayle.
- Tips: My only tip is when trying to escape, throw your E one way and walk the other. The enemy has to pick one or they'll generally lose you. Once they've chosen, go the safe option.
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On August 27 2014 16:42 JazzVortical wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Some thoughts (Liss is my most played this season):
- Blade Queen has the best splash, but doesn't live up to it in game. Bloodstone has the worst splash, but looks best in game.
- Masteries: I run 22/0/8 from mid and 13/9/8 when in top. I like the extra defence because generally you aren't bursting top laners, so the extra defence comes in handy over raw damage.
- Runes: I think you have to run Hybrid pen marks, especially vs a Melee. You will be doing a lot of Auto attacking. Consider CDR/level glyphs if you aren't desperate for MR. Having Q CD below two seconds is brutal vs some champs/comps.
- Build: Liss has one of the most varied build paths in the game, and it's part of why I like her. You really are able to adapt to the enemy team. I find myself constantly changing what I build. You covered most options, the biggest debate really comes down to RoA or Morello. Generally I find I go RoA for top for the extra tankiness, Morello in mid. RoA is good mid if you have like a Fiora or Panth top who isn't going to be a massive tank. She is one of the few champs who still makes effective use of Abyssal Scepter. You're really underselling Rylais. Q slowing for even more really makes her straight up abusive vs some champs, and more health is always good on her. Also you should try Liandry's some time as well. I can't tell you what my typical item build on Liss is, because it's different nearly every game.
- Match ups: She's insta lock status vs Zed, Fizz and Yasuo for me. Pick her vs the likes of Darius, Singed or Trynd for hilarity. Vs the long range picks like Ori and Ziggs, you'll pretty much have to just farm, but you do have some of the best gank support in the game. Never pick her into Kayle.
- Tips: My only tip is when trying to escape, throw your E one way and walk the other. The enemy has to pick one or they'll generally lose you. Once they've chosen, go the safe option. Masteries - I feel like she has such a safe laning phase against most picks that it's hard to justify trying to be more tanky through masteries even in top lane.
Runes - I don't have hybrid pen marks atm, although I can definitely see how they'd be good, especially against melee. Early game you auto them probably 2-3 times for every Q you can land, so the damage split is going to be fairly even.
On the topic of Rylai's, while it allows Q to slow even on the passthrough, it's 15% which while good, is not amazing. Can't remember the rules off the top of my head, but Rylai on top of the Q slow is not very useful, and R/W already CC. There are better items to rush, and better items to fill out a build until a late slot IMO.
Forgot about Abyssal. It's a damn good item against certain team comps because you're going to be eating a fair amount of damage. Given that you'll usually end up applying the aura to much of the enemy team, it's definitely a good idea, especially if you have another AP on your team.
As for guise/liandry's, I think there might be room for it, but when is a big factor. Can't really justify delaying the first item, and if you're fed enough to delay hourglass, a DFG or Dcap from the NLR has a bigger impact than guise. It's hard to justify because liss doesn't poke/siege very well, and when you go in, you're going to burst a target to critical HP instantly(very little liandry damage), and abyssal shreds roughly the same amount of MR as an aura for your team.
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On August 27 2014 18:26 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2014 16:42 JazzVortical wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Some thoughts (Liss is my most played this season):
- Blade Queen has the best splash, but doesn't live up to it in game. Bloodstone has the worst splash, but looks best in game.
- Masteries: I run 22/0/8 from mid and 13/9/8 when in top. I like the extra defence because generally you aren't bursting top laners, so the extra defence comes in handy over raw damage.
- Runes: I think you have to run Hybrid pen marks, especially vs a Melee. You will be doing a lot of Auto attacking. Consider CDR/level glyphs if you aren't desperate for MR. Having Q CD below two seconds is brutal vs some champs/comps.
- Build: Liss has one of the most varied build paths in the game, and it's part of why I like her. You really are able to adapt to the enemy team. I find myself constantly changing what I build. You covered most options, the biggest debate really comes down to RoA or Morello. Generally I find I go RoA for top for the extra tankiness, Morello in mid. RoA is good mid if you have like a Fiora or Panth top who isn't going to be a massive tank. She is one of the few champs who still makes effective use of Abyssal Scepter. You're really underselling Rylais. Q slowing for even more really makes her straight up abusive vs some champs, and more health is always good on her. Also you should try Liandry's some time as well. I can't tell you what my typical item build on Liss is, because it's different nearly every game.
- Match ups: She's insta lock status vs Zed, Fizz and Yasuo for me. Pick her vs the likes of Darius, Singed or Trynd for hilarity. Vs the long range picks like Ori and Ziggs, you'll pretty much have to just farm, but you do have some of the best gank support in the game. Never pick her into Kayle.
- Tips: My only tip is when trying to escape, throw your E one way and walk the other. The enemy has to pick one or they'll generally lose you. Once they've chosen, go the safe option. Masteries - I feel like she has such a safe laning phase against most picks that it's hard to justify trying to be more tanky through masteries even in top lane. Runes - I don't have hybrid pen marks atm, although I can definitely see how they'd be good, especially against melee. Early game you auto them probably 2-3 times for every Q you can land, so the damage split is going to be fairly even. On the topic of Rylai's, while it allows Q to slow even on the passthrough, it's 15% which while good, is not amazing. Can't remember the rules off the top of my head, but Rylai on top of the Q slow is not very useful, and R/W already CC. There are better items to rush, and better items to fill out a build until a late slot IMO. Forgot about Abyssal. It's a damn good item against certain team comps because you're going to be eating a fair amount of damage. Given that you'll usually end up applying the aura to much of the enemy team, it's definitely a good idea, especially if you have another AP on your team. As for guise/liandry's, I think there might be room for it, but when is a big factor. Can't really justify delaying the first item, and if you're fed enough to delay hourglass, a DFG or Dcap from the NLR has a bigger impact than guise. It's hard to justify because liss doesn't poke/siege very well, and when you go in, you're going to burst a target to critical HP instantly(very little liandry damage), and abyssal shreds roughly the same amount of MR as an aura for your team.
The slightly tankier masteries are good against even match ups like Irelia. I feel like you need the extra tankiness. Once she gets Sheen, she seems to start winning trades, especially because she will usually be able to stun you. But I haven't played vs an Irelia in a while. Vs an easy match up like Darius, offensive masteries are fine.
With Rylai's/Liandry's, sure they are not must buys. They are pretty good options though. If they a 'rush down' type team, with only a few gap closers, I'm absolutely building a Rylai's. Sure a 15% slow doesn't seem like much, but considering that late game your Q cooldown is under 2 seconds with some CDR, you're permaslowing their team. Vs AP heavy teams, I like Rylai's as well for the health boost without sacrificing too much damage. Liandry's is definitely even more situational, no arguments.
This is what I really like about her though. There are so many things you can build and make work. Try going Lichbane for a game or two for some hilarious results (half-serious here). You aren't locked into building Grail->Dcap->Void like so many other AP champs.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
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I don't see the point in a Rylai's when 3 of your 4 skills already root or slow your opponent. You can just rush Liandry's after Rod and it's basically the same thing except you get more HP/AP, right? I mean sure your E won't slow so you won't get the double burn proc but QWR will all still double burn proc.
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On August 29 2014 07:43 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: I don't see the point in a Rylai's when 3 of your 4 skills already root or slow your opponent. You can just rush Liandry's after Rod and it's basically the same thing except you get more HP/AP, right? I mean sure your E won't slow so you won't get the double burn proc but QWR will all still double burn proc. It's more that liss's poke outside lane phase is pretty abysmal so the strong point of liandries isn't there. Rylai let's the fragments from Q slow, and, the rest of the skills you're unlikely to hit people with generally speaking unless you've initiated on them. Really comes down to how much you expect the burn damage to help for cleanup. I suppose I should do the math on whether 15mpen outperforms 50AP as well(and 100HP) in one rotation at the 3-5 item mark, because the burn damage won't do much if you've already burst a target to sub30% HP.
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