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I wish Riot would increase the range on Liss ult. It doesn't have to be anything absurd, but every single time I play this champ I think to myself "god, if the range on this ult was just slightly larger, this champ would be so good/fun/whatever"...the overall kit is so good already.
I'm not some huge Liss fan, but I think I want to be; it's frustrating watching Kass, Zed, and company get tweaked every 2 to 3 patches with so many other champions sitting sooo close to that barrier between niche and 'good enough'. For the past 6+ months I've played a really heavy amount of Talon. I have a smurf that normally floats around mid plat because I purposely play things I feel extremely uncomfortable with. After my very first game with him, I felt an overwhelming sense of 'if I did X Y and Z differently...I think I could have crushed that game. Talon is good enough, but I'm not.' After a lot of trying and failing to do those things and a slow shift over to my main account, I now feel a stronger potential to carry on Talon than any other champion I play (and my only surprise with his recent rise in popularity is that it took this long). Every time I try Liss in a similar scenario, I feel like 'man, if X Y and...20% extra range to allow for better/more snap-reaction ults...coulda crushed that game'.
Maybe it's because Annie was my very first champ way back before things like Ezreal existed and the kit Liss has feels, to me, like 'a modern Annie for a post-movement-creep world.' Maybe if I could shake that feeling, things would be different, but I swear her ult range is the only thing holding her back from viable-but-not-overpowered. Feel free to tell me I'm wrong.
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On August 29 2014 08:08 asymptotech wrote:I wish Riot would increase the range on Liss ult. It doesn't have to be anything absurd, but every single time I play this champ I think to myself "god, if the range on this ult was just slightly larger, this champ would be so good/fun/whatever"...the overall kit is so good already. I'm not some huge Liss fan, but I think I want to be; it's frustrating watching Kass, Zed, and company get tweaked every 2 to 3 patches with so many other champions sitting sooo close to that barrier between niche and 'good enough'. For the past 6+ months I've played a really heavy amount of Talon. I have a smurf that normally floats around mid plat because I purposely play things I feel extremely uncomfortable with. After my very first game with him, I felt an overwhelming sense of 'if I did X Y and Z differently...I think I could have crushed that game. Talon is good enough, but I'm not.' After a lot of trying and failing to do those things and a slow shift over to my main account, I now feel a stronger potential to carry on Talon than any other champion I play (and my only surprise with his recent rise in popularity is that it took this long). Every time I try Liss in a similar scenario, I feel like 'man, if X Y and...20% extra range to allow for better/more snap-reaction ults...coulda crushed that game'. Maybe it's because Annie was my very first champ way back before things like Ezreal existed and the kit Liss has feels, to me, like 'a modern Annie for a post-movement-creep world.' Maybe if I could shake that feeling, things would be different, but I swear her ult range is the only thing holding her back from viable-but-not-overpowered. Feel free to tell me I'm wrong. Ult range is fine. You're not supposed to be able to hit people with it unless they're very out of position, or else you use E.
She's very balanced for soloq right now, maybe even a bit on the strong side after her Q buffs. Might even see a couple picks at worlds if more pro's/high level soloq people pick her up.
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Honestly I don't see Rylai/Liandry as damage items on Liss. I see them as "I want some HP but don't want to go full tank" items.
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Has any of this changed much in the last couple months? I've been rocking her in solo queue lately. I play pretty passive/safe in lane and try to just farm and rush Deathcap or Zhonya's, never really tried the RoA start.
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also want updated build pls, roa feels like im gimping myself, morello good now? chalice still viable vs ap ranged nukers that make me wana poke all day? need my zhonyas but do i get a health item?
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RoA sucks unless your toplane vs irelia and even then whether you go RoA or not you're still going to get shit on by a good irelia. best build is morellos into nlr item depending on what your team needs[dfg for single target burst, dcap for sustained damage or zhonyas for initiator/front line play].
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On November 06 2014 03:25 aurawashere wrote: RoA sucks unless your toplane vs irelia and even then whether you go RoA or not you're still going to get shit on by a good irelia. best build is morellos into nlr item depending on what your team needs[dfg for single target burst, dcap for sustained damage or zhonyas for initiator/front line play]. What makes Morello's a better first item than just going NLR item?
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the build up is 100% more efficient, very rarely are you going to be able to rush a nlr on your first back unless you're already like 3-0 and playing as liss there is no such thing as farm lane you're either bullying the enemy or you're getting bullied. and ideally you'd want to have a 20% cdr as your first/second item because liss roam/early-mid game skirmishes is heavily gated by whether or not she has ult
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oh fuck yeah morrellos feels good. im going it then zhonyas but then i want a health item is lissandrys any good or should i get my deathcap/voidstaff next? if i get lissandys do i still get voidstaff? what is the 6th item?
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morellos/dcap/zhonyas/void/sorcs+defensive item[ga/banshees/maybe even FH/etc]. then i would substitute out morellos for DFG because late game the extra 10% CDR won't mean shit when fights are whoever wins can end the game/death timers are long as fuck and you'll have your ult back by the time you spawn. abyssal is a really good mid game item vs dual/trip ap comps i never build liandries but i can only imagine youre getting liandries for mid game powerspike and replacing it with void late
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rylais isnt even an option for defense item? i want a big health bar know what im saying. i can see the apeal of ga after self ult zhonyas hehehe
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On November 06 2014 12:00 ComaDose wrote: rylais isnt even an option for defense item? i want a big health bar know what im saying. i can see the apeal of ga after self ult zhonyas hehehe As a defensive item, it doesn't really fit. Early game Liss needs a bit of mana sustain, not anywhere close to what athenes would give, but more than a couple dorans worth, and that's where I like RoA. Morello's is good as well, but I find that is more oriented towards midlane liss. Midgame she needs morello's+hourglass, and to continue scaling she needs dcap+void. It's hard to justify buying rylai's as anything other than a 6 slot item, and even then there's competition from abyssal(full aura effect so long as you're fighting), DFG, Banshee's in some cases(where they have instant hard CC, say fid fear, so that you can go in and combo before zhonya)
I would never get a GA, combo+hourglass>2nd Q will almost always kill a squishy if you're even or ahead.
I agree that DFG replacing morello's lategame is a good plan because that lets you kill somebody without needing the second Q or E to hit.
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Well with the preseason changes, Liss is now pick/ban in OGN & at IEM, and I hit D4 promos for the first time with her as well.
RoA build is out, CDR boots+morello's for top lane liss is in (sorc's otherwise), and midlane liss slaughters many assassin's when played well. Top lane liss beats a fair number of picks, although counterpicks do exist(J4, irelia), mainly champs who can reliably get on her and stick.
Especially with the new mana changes, you really have to try to run out of mana if you don't use W/E on CD.
Probably update guide in a few days once RL gets sorted out.
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Im so glad to hear that, how did the changes benifit her? So glad i stuck with her i feel like im getting much better.
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Uh CDR is very good on Lissandra, not just for her ult. It's important for her Q as well as her W (it's less significant for her E obviously). She doesn't exactly have the base or ratios to pop in, unload a rotation then walk back out past her initial combo like others can, she has to keep pumping dps to make up for it and help kiting/chasing.
Also Morello gives very needed mp5 because her pool is very tiny (especially for a mage) and pre-7 her Q cost is brutal (even post-9 once you get some CDR).
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United States37500 Posts
So I've been playing a lot of Lissandra in the past two days, because she's all FotM and I needed a better AP option for Top besides Rumble. Been going the Korean CDR build and it's been working very well for me. Tested both W max second and E max second because I saw various Koreans doing both (e.g. MaRin does E max second for some reason) but I prefer W max second after Q.
Item build: Ring, Flask, or Cloth, depending on lane. (Cloth for the likes of Riven tbh). Codex, Ionian Boots to hit ~25% CDR early. Ionian if you need the passive MS for dealing with your lane, otherwise extra AP helps more for pushing purposes. Zhonya's and Morellonomicon are core. From here, I just focus on damage and utility. I typically go Void 4th, GA 5th, and Deathcap 6th. I actually like GA on Liss because it gives you technically 3 revives but realistically, it lets you use ulti offensively and allow you to CC lock whoever your team needs to kill first (doesn't have to be carry tbh, you just need to judge your/your team's DPS and make sure you can kill whoever you ulti).
Won the majority of my games just by good positioning/initiation. Laning is probably the area I could use the most improvement. It's a juggle between deciding when to Q the enemy directly vs Q the enemy through creeps. So on top of last hitting, you have to look at all the weird angles in lane but without the movement ability, a la Vayne Tumble/Condemn.
Edit: Everything else is pretty standard. Runes: MPen (I've seen Hybrid Pen here too), HP/Level, flat AP, AP Quints. 21 0 9 Masteries. Flash/TP. I've been tunneling on Homeguard Boots just because but I feel like Distortion should be very viable considering how fast Liss can clear an open lane and TP into a team fight to CC/initiate.
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E max is likely if you want to play a more supportive role, and be able to use E freely to poke midgame(Q really is too short ranged to poke). In that case W is almost entirely for the CC. You can scare the other team a lot with E on such a low CD as well. People generally will spend spells and run away from the claw.
For the purpose of soloq, I would never do E max.
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With Ionan boots your burst is significantly lower though, I was chocked by the difference in terms of how easily you kill people (you need generally 1 Q and another spell (so Q or W) more to solo kill a squishy), but the overall utility ever since they buffed her Q cd is too strong to ignore.
HP/level seals rather than armour when you're playing top lane though? They're worse EHP-wise iirc.
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United States37500 Posts
Support/Utility is more my playstyle, so I'll stick with Ionian for now. When I feel more proficient, I'll dabble with Sorc Boots to see if I need the extra MPen to secure kills early/mid.
HP/Level is from my AP mid page, I guess if I made a dedicated Liss page, it'd be Armor/Level seals.
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so what is like the standard go to rune and mastery pages? if yall would be so kind
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