As I did mention I don't know much about the new jungle. However if we could get some knowledgeable junglers to start posting what they know I can compile it here.
PASSIVE - CHILLING SMITE: Your Smite can target players, dealing 28-164 true damage (based on level) and slowing their movement speed by 50% for 2 seconds
PASSIVE - JUNGLER: Deal 45 magic damage on hit to monsters over 2 seconds and gain 10 health and 5 mana per second while in combat with monsters.
PASSIVE - SCAVENGING SMITE: Smiting a large monster in the enemy jungle reduces your cooldown by half (regardless if you kill the monster or not). If you Smite and kill a large monster in the enemy jungle, you get +20 gold and +175% movement speed that decays over 2 seconds.
PASSIVE - JUNGLER: Deal 45 magic damage on hit to monsters over 2 seconds and gain 10 health and 5 mana per second while in combat with monsters
PASSIVE - CHALLENGING SMITE: Your Smite can target players, giving you vision of them, making your attacks deal a bonus 18-69 (based on level) true damage to them, and reducing their damage to you by 20%. This lasts for 6 seconds.
PASSIVE - JUNGLER: Deal 45 magic damage on hit to monsters over 2 seconds and gain 10 health and 5 mana per second while in combat with monsters
PASSIVE - BLASTING SMITE: Your Smite damages all monsters near the target, dealing 50% damage and stunning them for 1.5 seconds. Your Smite cooldown is reduced by 15 seconds and restores 15% of your missing health and mana when used on monsters.
PASSIVE - JUNGLER: Deal 45 magic damage on hit to monsters over 2 seconds and gain 10 health and 5 mana per second while in combat with monsters
PASSIVE - DEVOURING: Killing large monsters permanently increases the magic damage on hit by 1. Champion kills and assists permanently increase the magic damage on hit by 2.
fullclear done in 4:04, I'm sure it could be a few seconds faster if you had some myserious optimal runepage or any micro at all, both of which i don't
I used 21/9/0 for that time, you can also go 9/21/0, it's a bit slower (by about 2-3 seconds) but in return you basially do not fall below 30% hp ever, which is also nice
Runes were 2 armor quints, 1 flat AD quit, flat AD marks, armor seals, flat AP glyphs
standard path starting golems
it...works with real runes it could work well I think.
Start Machete + 2 hp pots, spam Q in fountain to get passive on next cast. Take whichever trinket you want.
Start blue, cast Q at 1:48 to have voidling with frenzy when it spawns, let voidling take 2 hits and then tank buff + smite it. Clear wolves, red, wraiths (smite wraith, not red), go back and get Smite of choice + pots + ward. Prime your passive while in fountain.
Go clear dragon using wraith buff thing, casting Q when you walk past wraiths/wolves so that it frenzies when you start dragon and then take it at level 3 with aggro swap. Farm until ult and then use ult for ganks and voidlings for objective control. Ult their divers in fights.
Trailblazer Smite Masteries, Runes (keeps you a bit healthier for that all important first run and it's not like 4% spell vamp is going to make much of a difference with your ridiculous regen lategame).
E-Q-W opening skill order, Maxing Q-E-W after that but not 100% sure that it's optimal, probably doesn't matter that much either way. you gotta start with E at rocks smiting as soon as they spawn, do red with E+Q, smite birds, run over and do wolves while you still have one more stun left from the rock buff.
after wolves you gotta regen some hp and wait for smite's cd by sweeping your blue side river for wards since you have the bird buff. with your 3rd smite you take down the toad easily and if things go perfectly you can do blue with like 5hp left but it's probably better to just back and clear it on your second run. might be able to do blue a little more safely with a 3rd LS quint that i don't own. i got more ip than i can use so i'll test that out today and maybe make a video.
i know waiting around for smite after wolves seems like a waste of time, but clearing river wards is a legit use of your time and you can still finish a tier 3 trailblazer item in ~9:30 if you do nothing but farm.
probably a good idea to ward the bush above red before you clear it to let you see a possible invade coming since you want to stay low to get maximum value from your E's missing health ratio. abusing lifesteal on the scuttle crab made things easier too.
things were close enough that an extra attack speed quint and mastery point with expose weakness might be better than 3 LS quints and feast.
i've never recorded or uploaded anything to youtube before so if there are any details i messed up on (volume or whatever) i'd appreciate some feedback.
Been running 2x AS 1x LS quint, 3x AS 6xAD red, armor and scaling MR. Not sure on the lifesteal rune, another AS quint may be better, along with more AD. So much AS because devourer is awesome.
Tried both the onhit and the farming smite. If you want to play bullet nocturne, onhit smite is amazing. If you want to fill a more support/tank role, I would just go with the farm smite.
After devourer I've tried ghostblade(good), botrk(also good), and wits(also good). Ghostblade probably does the most raw damage including the active/movement, but wits/blade are both better options for survivability/clearing jungle.
Haven't tried to build a tank item after devourer yet because I've been teambuildering against silvers/golds, and quite frankly I didn't need the defensive stats when I can kill people in seconds. I would imagine that devourer alone wouldn't be enough damage after midgame if you weren't fed, although getting a sunfire for a bit extra damage and tankiness wouldn't be too bad.
Different perspective from Scip
http://www.twitch.tv/scipaeus/c/5597647 attack speed reds and quints, armor yellows, CDR blues, 9/21/0. I'm not convinced building a lot of dmg is a good idea on Nocturne, I think I'd like the skirmisher+devourer+tank build better on him, so this setup is geared towards that+best early jungle. I fucked up the clear a few times, didn't hit all the dudes with my autoattack on red, autoattacked 1 time too many on wolves (shoulda stopped, waited for my passive autoattack) which would give me a stun on the frog just before the golem buff would run out and then I clearly didn't do the blue buff perfectly, but close enough.
For Vi, Nightblue recommends Warrior -> Bruta/Hexdrinker -> Trinity -> Tank, but I have no idea how he's getting enough gold to make that build work. Frankly, in my games, even when I'm ahead, anything more ambitious than Warrior -> Sunfire usually results in me exploding in team fights. I dunno, maybe I'm just bad at the champion, but I just don't really see how building so heavily into damage works unless you get really fed.
Very strong with new jungle. Evidenced by his 60% Win Rate Getting Skirmishers Sabre and upgrading it into Devourer. Smiting someone and then ulting makes you do a crazy amount of dmg. Wits after helps as well if your ahead.
Wukong
Xin Zhao
Zac
So as we compile information every champ will get a spoiler with information pertinent only to them. Thinking on the matter a general jungle explanation would be helpful as well. For instance I have heard starting the Gromp is better then starting red or blue. Information that is general should have a place as well as a quick item run down.
I have never done anything like this before so any tips/suggestions are welcome!
On November 24 2014 05:00 Scip wrote: I dont understand how this thread is supposed to work Warrior enchantment gives AD, CDR and armorpen, it doesn't give lifesteal
And the thread's purpose is basically a information dump consolidated. While you may drop nuggets of gold in lolGD scip. It is not always easy to find the information or if someone is about to start a game and perhaps wants to get a quick over view of what theyshould be doing when they are jungling.
Warwick is just straight up terrifying in the new jungle. His passive allows full jungle clears at any point in the game, something that has skyrocketed in value since the patch. Machete --> Poacher or Skirmisher upgrade --> Devourer should be your jungle item progression, at least until Feral Flare 3.0 is nerfed. I recommend building tanks while working your way up to your BotRK. Blade of the Ruined King and Devourer will give you enough damage to 1v1 most people except specialized dualists. Tank items should vary per comp, but Randuin's Omen and Spirit Visage are generally good items for Warwick. Boots can be bought whenever, probably first or second back. Tier 2 boots should probably be Merc Treads if facing a good amount of CC, otherwise Ninja Tabi work fine for that extra bit of tankiness. I'm not sure of WW's dragon taking abilities pre6, but I imagine them to be fairly solid.
I specifically do not list which camps to do mainly because I have no idea what the statistically best route would be. However, since WW has no sustain problems, it doesn't really matter where you start if all the camps end up dead anyway, right?
The new jungle didn't change WW's playstyle . It basically just let him skip the scary levels of 1-5 by removing the threat of meaningful invades.
I'm a Silver II scrub, and I'm a top laner by trade, so don't treat my words like scripture (scipture?)
i think stalker for shyvana and skirmisher for warwick are the clear best choices with both taking devourer. the stalker slow is exactly what shyvana needs to actually convert some early ganks and the WW ult + skirmisher synergy is legit op.
both obviously laugh at weak ass junglers that need to use smite to clear camps and have to buy trailblazer, although before you finish devourer on shyvana you probably want to have the rock smite stun buff up as much as possible to lessen the amount of damage you take from camps.
A quick suggestion would be to add the actual numbers for each item/enchantment, like cost and stats so that we can compare them to other items. Also if people start posting 1st clear times for champions you can edit them to include the path and clear time.
On November 24 2014 06:35 TheWarWaffle wrote: Warwick is just straight up terrifying in the new jungle. His passive allows full jungle clears at any point in the game, something that has skyrocketed in value since the patch. Machete --> Poacher or Skirmisher upgrade --> Devourer should be your jungle item progression, at least until Feral Flare 3.0 is nerfed. I recommend building tanks while working your way up to your BotRK. Blade of the Ruined King and Devourer will give you enough damage to 1v1 most people except specialized dualists. Tank items should vary per comp, but Randuin's Omen and Spirit Visage are generally good items for Warwick. Boots can be bought whenever, probably first or second back. Tier 2 boots should probably be Merc Treads if facing a good amount of CC, otherwise Ninja Tabi work fine for that extra bit of tankiness. I'm not sure of WW's dragon taking abilities pre6, but I imagine them to be fairly solid.
I specifically do not list which camps to do mainly because I have no idea what the statistically best route would be. However, since WW has no sustain problems, it doesn't really matter where you start if all the camps end up dead anyway, right?
The new jungle didn't change WW's playstyle . It basically just let him skip the scary levels of 1-5 by removing the threat of meaningful invades.
I'm a Silver II scrub, and I'm a top laner by trade, so don't treat my words like scripture (scipture?)
Poacher is a terrible idea, the entire point of WW is to get Skirmisher and 1shot people with ult I'm not totally sold on the idea of Spirit Visage. Let's say you heal 1000hp during a teamfight in various ways. In that case if you're level15 you get 15 magic resistance and 50 gold over a 200hp shield for your allies and an aura. Starting Frog tends to be the best for grand majority of junglers and WW is no exception.
On November 24 2014 12:27 Apoptotic wrote: A quick suggestion would be to add the actual numbers for each item/enchantment, like cost and stats so that we can compare them to other items. Also if people start posting 1st clear times for champions you can edit them to include the path and clear time.
It would be best if people posted videos of the clears alongside just the time. The times for first clears proclaimed by some people in the GD have been... unreliable so far.
Yeah videos would be best but I'm not sure how many people have access to video-making set ups. I know for me personally my dingy little laptop can barely handle league, let alone video record. So maybe just a general path plus a time, and people can test it themselves and refute/confirm a time?
The item "descriptions" you gave sound like advertising lines rather then anything informative~ It would be more useful just to state the stats they give.
Same with the enchantments, just say what they give, in an effort to save 3-4 characters per description they're now kind of useless. It gives ap, 20 ap or 80 ap? how much onhit? and the fact magus gives double the cdr of the other two is kind of big too...
Wouldn't it be easier to just have people have discussions as to how to jungle individual junglers in the champion discussion threads? Having 20 different champions be discussed here, while they all have their own threads sitting gathering dust seems a little strange and inefficient o.0
On November 24 2014 13:09 Apoptotic wrote: Yeah videos would be best but I'm not sure how many people have access to video-making set ups. I know for me personally my dingy little laptop can barely handle league, let alone video record. So maybe just a general path plus a time, and people can test it themselves and refute/confirm a time?
If you have an nvidia gpu, then you can use the shadowplay record thingy which has almost no performance impact, and is included with your drivers. Alternatively OBS is completely free, and you can just record a low bitrate local video. Both can just be uploaded to youtube with basically no setup
Alternatively, if you have a few wierdly good times you want recorded and can't do it yourself, just post here and I (or anyone else who has a setup) could just spec a few games to record the runs if you're getting much better results then anyone else ^^
tried out mundo jungle and his clear seems surprisingly decent. the first clear is obviously a bit of a struggle, but you can still get a sub 10min tier 3 jungle item if you go the trailblazer route with a couple lifesteal or spell vamp quints.
warmogs seems at least mildly strong on him, once you get it you don't even lose hp from early levels of W.
I've been trying to make jungle mundo work but I can't, what's the secret chalice? I've been running atspd marks, flat armor seals, scaling mr glyphs, and spell vamp quints. For masteries I'm going 9-21 with what you would expect in defense and atspd, both feast masteries, and ad in the offensive tree. W>Q>W>E is my skill order.
After fooling around I think this works pretty well, no leash since customs:
gromp (smite)->wolves->raptors->red(smite)->krug but I generally end up dying to the krug. I have been jungling since before season one but I have no concept of how far I should get during my initial clear. Is 3 camps, 1 buff sufficient? Why must Riot change everything so much every season, jungle always gets so shaken up...
Anyone have thoughts on either my set up or route? If this is too champ specific I can move it to the Mundo thread
People are welcome to discuss the champ on there champ threads. This is just a compile of good information for simplicity's sake. Also after people reach some basis of a conclusion on what is good on a particular champ in regards to jungling. It would be very helpful if they could post there conclusions in this thread so I could put it in the OP. My idea is if someone is getting into the new season or hasn't done any jungling as of yet. This would be a good resource to direct them too. Because as it is you have to find and look up lots of different info to even know where to start in regards to jungling.
On November 24 2014 15:21 killerdog wrote: The item "descriptions" you gave sound like advertising lines rather then anything informative~ It would be more useful just to state the stats they give.
Same with the enchantments, just say what they give, in an effort to save 3-4 characters per description they're now kind of useless. It gives ap, 20 ap or 80 ap? how much onhit? and the fact magus gives double the cdr of the other two is kind of big too...
Wouldn't it be easier to just have people have discussions as to how to jungle individual junglers in the champion discussion threads? Having 20 different champions be discussed here, while they all have their own threads sitting gathering dust seems a little strange and inefficient o.0
On November 24 2014 13:09 Apoptotic wrote: Yeah videos would be best but I'm not sure how many people have access to video-making set ups. I know for me personally my dingy little laptop can barely handle league, let alone video record. So maybe just a general path plus a time, and people can test it themselves and refute/confirm a time?
If you have an nvidia gpu, then you can use the shadowplay record thingy which has almost no performance impact, and is included with your drivers. Alternatively OBS is completely free, and you can just record a low bitrate local video. Both can just be uploaded to youtube with basically no setup
Alternatively, if you have a few wierdly good times you want recorded and can't do it yourself, just post here and I (or anyone else who has a setup) could just spec a few games to record the runs if you're getting much better results then anyone else ^^
Yea Scip it seems attack speed isn't the way to go any more to get faster jungle clears as they changed how dmg is applied from machete. Is a better way AD. Or perhaps lifesteal so you can sustain better and because of that not have to go back as much and you clear faster?
I've personally had more difficulty starting wight than starting golems, even champs that I thought would want blue (Hecarim, Amumu) aren't able to full clear after a wight start, whereas they finish by 4:15 from a golems start. I recognize that my runes/masteries/route are likely suboptimal, and that this may be causing the difference in our experiences. Could you describe your setup and route for a successful wight-starting jungler?
On November 25 2014 03:41 1godless wrote: I've been trying to make jungle mundo work but I can't, what's the secret chalice? I've been running atspd marks, flat armor seals, 6 cdr + 3 scaling mr glyphs, and spell vamp quints. For masteries I'm going 9-21 with what you would expect in defense and atspd, both feast masteries, and ad in the offensive tree. W>Q>W>E is my skill order.
After fooling around I think this works pretty well, no leash since customs:
gromp (smite)->wolves->raptors->red(smite)->krug but I generally end up dying to the krug. I have been jungling since before season one but I have no concept of how far I should get during my initial clear. Is 3 camps, 1 buff sufficient? Why must Riot change everything so much every season, jungle always gets so shaken up...
Anyone have thoughts on either my set up or route? If this is too champ specific I can move it to the Mundo thread
9/21 is what i run too, full AS except for 2 lifesteal quints (keeps you a bit healthier for that all important first run and it's not like 4% spell vamp is going to make much of a difference with your ridiculous regen lategame).
E-Q-W opening skill order, i've been maxing Q-E-W after that but not 100% sure that it's optimal, probably doesn't matter that much either way. you gotta start with E at rocks smiting as soon as they spawn, do red with E+Q, smite birds (start camp with 5-6s left on smite cd), run over and do wolves while you still have one more stun left from the rock buff.
after wolves you gotta regen some hp and wait for smite's cd by sweeping your blue side river for wards since you have the bird buff. with your 3rd smite you take down the toad easily and if things go perfectly you can do blue with like 5hp left but it's probably better to just back and clear it on your second run. might be able to do blue a little more safely with a 3rd LS quint that i don't own. i got more ip than i can use so i'll test that out today and maybe make a video.
i know waiting around for smite after wolves seems like a waste of time, but clearing river wards is a legit use of your time and you can still finish a tier 3 trailblazer item in ~9:30 if you do nothing but farm.
probably a good idea to ward the bush above red before you clear it to let you see a possible invade coming since you want to stay low to get maximum value from your E's missing health ratio. abusing lifesteal on the scuttle crab made things easier too.
things were close enough that an extra attack speed quint and mastery point with expose weakness might be better than 3 LS quints and feast.
i've never recorded or uploaded anything to youtube before so if there are any details i messed up on (volume or whatever) i'd appreciate some feedback.
Been running 2x AS 1x LS quint, 3x AS 6xAD red, armor and scaling MR. Not sure on the lifesteal rune, another AS quint may be better, along with more AD. So much AS because devourer is awesome.
Tried both the onhit and the farming smite. If you want to play bullet nocturne, onhit smite is amazing. If you want to fill a more support/tank role, I would just go with the farm smite.
After devourer I've tried ghostblade(good), botrk(also good), and wits(also good). Ghostblade probably does the most raw damage including the active/movement, but wits/blade are both better options for survivability/clearing jungle.
Haven't tried to build a tank item after devourer yet because I've been teambuildering against silvers/golds, and quite frankly I didn't need the defensive stats when I can kill people in seconds. I would imagine that devourer alone wouldn't be enough damage after midgame if you weren't fed, although getting a sunfire for a bit extra damage and tankiness wouldn't be too bad.
For Vi, Nightblue recommends Warrior -> Bruta/Hexdrinker -> Trinity -> Tank, but I have no idea how he's getting enough gold to make that build work. Frankly, in my games, even when I'm ahead, anything more ambitious than Warrior -> Sunfire usually results in me exploding in team fights. I dunno, maybe I'm just bad at the champion, but I just don't really see how building so heavily into damage works unless you get really fed.
Mundo always go low in the jungle when it isn't s2 "AoE down all the camps" jungle, so I don't see any route that puts you as low as 10 HP reasonable, and more importantly not smiting red seems like an absurd waste of HP considering how hard it hits and the sustain it grants. Mundo also always maxes E last because it doesn't grant that much benefits, and although his autos hurt like hell when he can get them in, most of his damage is actually sunfire/W/cleavers because he doesn't get that many autos in a fight.
In s3 putting 2-3 points in W to clear the little monsters faster then maxing Q was better than straight-up maxing W because the camps' HP had been moved more toward the big creep. I'll run some tests, but the more important thing with Mundo is making sure he can get both the krugs and red smites and can stay healthy, because until he gets enough levels for his clear speed/regen to offset the damage he takes he struggles and can't duel people either, meaning a Mundo that gets behind on his level 6 is a very sad Mundo.
Obviously all these caveats are useless if Mundo can do krugs (smite) -> raptors -> red (smite) just fine. Probably needs something like WQ skill order so that he kills raptors faster, E is actually less single-target damage until he loses a bunch of HP because of his low AS, only upside is lower cost (which may be offset by the additional damage taken).
When you fight raptors, do you kill the small ones first to reduce damage or focus on the big one?
As for Vi in s3 she could do Lizard -> brutalizer -> tanky fine as long as she didn't fall behind (and even then if the laning phase was going to last she could still delay tank a bit nd try to catch up with the higher kill power).
On November 25 2014 03:54 jaybrundage wrote: Yea Scip it seems attack speed isn't the way to go any more to get faster jungle clears as they changed how dmg is applied from machete. Is a better way AD. Or perhaps lifesteal so you can sustain better and because of that not have to go back as much and you clear faster?
About atk spe it depends on what jugnler you're playing. They're the best on Yi, atk spe quints+AD marks seem to be the best on Skarner, but yes they are relatively worse than they used to be.
Don't get obssessed with smiting red buff. Idk if Mundo needs it, but both Rammus and Yi who can start golems (although Rammus prefers Frog a little bit) just smite golems and go red->wraiths->wolves->blue afterwards.
On November 25 2014 04:12 MidnightGladius wrote: I've personally had more difficulty starting wight than starting golems, even champs that I thought would want blue (Hecarim, Amumu) aren't able to full clear after a wight start, whereas they finish by 4:15 from a golems start. I recognize that my runes/masteries/route are likely suboptimal, and that this may be causing the difference in our experiences. Could you describe your setup and route for a successful wight-starting jungler?
Wight start is way faster for those jungler, killing only 5 camps on the first clear is fine, Amumu can clear 5 camps starting from wight in about 3:30 IIRC.
alaric like i said when discussing shyvana you're overestimating the importance of the red buff heal, you take more than 20% of your hp in extra damage from the birds by not smiting them. the first level of W on mundo is pretty much useless in the new jungle, it might be more dps, but it just costs too much hp. your post made me realize that an EQQ or EQE skill order actually gives a safer clear than what i showed in the video.
there is probably some merit to maxing W second though because after you get some levels and trailblazer things are pretty much easy mode.
On November 25 2014 22:21 chalice wrote: alaric like i said when discussing shyvana you're overestimating the importance of the red buff heal, you take more than 20% of your hp in extra damage from the birds by not smiting them. the first level of W on mundo is pretty much useless in the new jungle, it might be more dps, but it just costs too much hp. your post made me realize that an EQQ or EQE skill order actually gives a safer clear than what i showed in the video.
there is probably some merit to maxing W second though because after you get some levels and trailblazer things are pretty much easy mode.
Why do you take E over Q at level 1? Both provide single target damage but Q clearly deals more.
its not about what does the most damage, its what has the best damage to hp cost ratio. i tested both E and Q starts with lifesteal, spell vamp, armor, and i think full attack speed quints. E first with lifesteal gave me the healthiest clear because of the synergy between attack speed runes and a 40 ad buff and because level 1 E has only half the health cost of level 1 Q.
On November 26 2014 03:35 chalice wrote: its not about what does the most damage, its what has the best damage to hp cost ratio. i tested both E and Q starts with lifesteal, spell vamp, armor, and i think full attack speed quints. E first with lifesteal gave me the healthiest clear because of the synergy between attack speed runes and a 40 ad buff and because level 1 E has only half the health cost of level 1 Q.
Level 1 E has the same health cost as level 1 Q unless you miss the cleaver. E gives you 40~50 AD, you have 0.74 AS in your video, so you get less than 2 hp/sec from the extra lifesteal. The big golems is hitting you for 49 hp/attack the small one for 22 hp/attack. If the extra damage from Q mean you can one less auto from the big golem, it should be healthier with Q first.
yeah i was unaware of the heal on landing the Q but it doesn't matter, i didn't choose my skill order by doing some half-ass math and proclaiming E to be superior. i guess maybe the real reason E works better is because it starts at like 160 damage and goes up as you lose health, while Q starts at 216 damage and goes down rapidly to 80 damage as the monster loses health, i mean it only does 81 damage on the small krug at full hp.
i don't understand why you're arguing at me with theorycraft when you can just take 15 minutes and load up a couple custom games to check if you think i made a mistake.
Sorry if I ask this here, but I think it's the most relevant thread. I wanna play jungle and I'm about to hit 30: which runes would you suggest me buying, to have some good jungle rune pages?
Also, which ones are most have jungle champions? So far I have Rengar, Lee Sin, Xin Zhao, Warwick.
On November 26 2014 20:41 SoSexy wrote: Sorry if I ask this here, but I think it's the most relevant thread. I wanna play jungle and I'm about to hit 30: which runes would you suggest me buying, to have some good jungle rune pages?
Also, which ones are most have jungle champions? So far I have Rengar, Lee Sin, Xin Zhao, Warwick.
you'd be perfectly fine playing the champions you have, i haven't played rengar or lee in the new jungle but WW is literally the #1 jungler right now, xin zhao is strong, and i wouldn't be surprised if rengar was in a pretty good spot too.
for runes the most basic widely useful rune page is probably attack speed reds and quints, armor yellows, and mr or mr per level blues. 6 cdr or cdr per level blues for 5% or 10% cdr are nice on a lot of champions as well, especially xin and i think rengar. for someone like rengar you'd at least want ad reds and you should have them for when you play adc anyway.
is twisted fate the champ to take advantage of a ranged ad's advantage in clearing the new jungle? devourer fits him pretty well and with gold cards and his ult his ganks are probably miles ahead of anyone besides twitch. i think i might even be able to consistently pick a gold card if i only have to do it while walking unseen into a lane or hiding in a bush.
It would be cool if you included some source posts in the tips (for example, a couple of sources of WW imba posts, lets you check time etc). If you have the time ofc.
On November 25 2014 11:52 Cheap0 wrote: For Vi, Nightblue recommends Warrior -> Bruta/Hexdrinker -> Trinity -> Tank, but I have no idea how he's getting enough gold to make that build work. Frankly, in my games, even when I'm ahead, anything more ambitious than Warrior -> Sunfire usually results in me exploding in team fights. I dunno, maybe I'm just bad at the champion, but I just don't really see how building so heavily into damage works unless you get really fed.
Even in the old jungle id always bruta/lizard elder, if youre getting ahead trinity will make sure you destroy any squishy in a hit or two, if youre behind randuins and tanky is probably better
i've never been able to make it work in the past, but between his passive and %hp damage on his W, fizz's first clear in the new jungle is very comfortable
On November 25 2014 03:41 1godless wrote: I've been trying to make jungle mundo work but I can't, what's the secret chalice? I've been running atspd marks, flat armor seals, scaling mr glyphs, and spell vamp quints. For masteries I'm going 9-21 with what you would expect in defense and atspd, both feast masteries, and ad in the offensive tree. W>Q>W>E is my skill order.
After fooling around I think this works pretty well, no leash since customs:
gromp (smite)->wolves->raptors->red(smite)->krug but I generally end up dying to the krug. I have been jungling since before season one but I have no concept of how far I should get during my initial clear. Is 3 camps, 1 buff sufficient? Why must Riot change everything so much every season, jungle always gets so shaken up...
Anyone have thoughts on either my set up or route? If this is too champ specific I can move it to the Mundo thread
Most people go 0 30 0 on mundo 5% attack speed and a puny 4 damage just ain't worth much. Especially if you consider his damage steroid. If you want to take less damage kite camps to take fewer hits and get abilities of cool down.
On November 25 2014 11:52 Cheap0 wrote: For Vi, Nightblue recommends Warrior -> Bruta/Hexdrinker -> Trinity -> Tank, but I have no idea how he's getting enough gold to make that build work. Frankly, in my games, even when I'm ahead, anything more ambitious than Warrior -> Sunfire usually results in me exploding in team fights. I dunno, maybe I'm just bad at the champion, but I just don't really see how building so heavily into damage works unless you get really fed.
Even in the old jungle id always bruta/lizard elder, if youre getting ahead trinity will make sure you destroy any squishy in a hit or two, if youre behind randuins and tanky is probably better
Haven't really tried Vi in the new jungle. In the old I basically went lizard, TF,FH, 2 of SV/BV/rand/warmogs +shoes every game. Nobody could stand up to me unless team fed like crazy. Tri force is so good on vi because u can proc it on cd until any squishy is dead. She uses all stats on it well. You can build it in different orders depending on what you need first but usually get the hammer.
On November 25 2014 11:52 Cheap0 wrote: For Vi, Nightblue recommends Warrior -> Bruta/Hexdrinker -> Trinity -> Tank, but I have no idea how he's getting enough gold to make that build work. Frankly, in my games, even when I'm ahead, anything more ambitious than Warrior -> Sunfire usually results in me exploding in team fights. I dunno, maybe I'm just bad at the champion, but I just don't really see how building so heavily into damage works unless you get really fed.
Even in the old jungle id always bruta/lizard elder, if youre getting ahead trinity will make sure you destroy any squishy in a hit or two, if youre behind randuins and tanky is probably better
Haven't really tried Vi in the new jungle. In the old I basically went lizard, TF,FH, 2 of SV/BV/rand/warmogs +shoes every game. Nobody could stand up to me unless team fed like crazy. Tri force is so good on vi because u can proc it on cd until any squishy is dead. She uses all stats on it well. You can build it in different orders depending on what you need first but usually get the hammer.
I'd almost always grab sheen first, you can absolutely decimate squishes esp early game with the sheen proc its fucking unreal esp if you don't need the extra hp from phage imo. My build was pretty much always
Lizard/Bruta/TF(if big)/situational tanky items. depending on how fed i was/how our team was doing. I personally really value 40% cdr on her, seems so strong
Yup, running MS quints on Mundo proved too weak, even with a big leash he just takes so much damage. 2 points early in W lets him clear a lot faster without losing too much health, especially on raptors and wolves (krugs he can just cleave them down). Guess I'd have to retry with the 0/30/0 and something like AD/AS runes. Same would prob be true of Nautilus.
Nocturne had a brutal time clearing with ArPen/AD runes, taking too long to kill camps (basically starting purple side with a leash smite wouldn't be up for blue buff after gromp (immediate smite) -> wolves, and then I wouldn't be able to do raptors -> red (even with smite)). AD/AS cleared better but still noticeably worse than s2/3 and I wouldn't be able to fight after my first clear, basically gromp (smite) -> wolves -> blue (it dies before smite is up) -> red (smite) -> back to base. Dunno if it's normal or not. 21-9 masteries. I was going for the warrior enchantment and 30 ArPen doesn't kill squishies s fast as I thought it would. :<
This is the 1st Nocturne clear I'd reccomend: http://www.twitch.tv/scipaeus/c/5597647 attack speed reds and quints, armor yellows, CDR blues, 9/21/0. I'm not convinced building a lot of dmg is a good idea on Nocturne, I think I'd like the skirmisher+devourer+tank build better on him, so this setup is geared towards that+best early jungle. I fucked up the clear a few times, didn't hit all the dudes with my autoattack on red, autoattacked 1 time too many on wolves (shoulda stopped, waited for my passive autoattack) which would give me a stun on the frog just before the golem buff would run out and then I clearly didn't do the blue buff perfectly, but close enough.
In my limited experience, the fastest clear is with warwick. When I switch to Rengar, I am always amazed at how bad he is at clearing compared to ww :S
On December 01 2014 20:07 Scip wrote: Warwick is the slowest champion I've tried so far
Really? I can start golem, smite red, birds, wolves, smite blue, gromp all in one go. With Rengar I start smiting red, then wolves and smite blue but i barely survive using 2 red potions. With ww 1/no potions o.o
On December 01 2014 20:07 Scip wrote: Warwick is the slowest champion I've tried so far
Really? I can start golem, smite red, birds, wolves, smite blue, gromp all in one go. With Rengar I start smiting red, then wolves and smite blue but i barely survive using 2 red potions. With ww 1/no potions o.o
Both of those paths are awful, you're supposed to smite holems if you start them and you should never start red or blue. Check out the highlights on my twitch profile I linked earlier to get a better idea of how to jungle.
On December 02 2014 01:40 GhandiEAGLE wrote: Any thoughts on Trundle in the jungle? I've been noticing that he's gone unmentioned, but I expected him to be pretty good.
On December 02 2014 01:40 GhandiEAGLE wrote: Any thoughts on Trundle in the jungle? I've been noticing that he's gone unmentioned, but I expected him to be pretty good.
My expectation of you saying something profound went the same way your expectation of Trundle being good did. OMG I am the 2nd Shakedrizzle, czech+make youtube videos, my youtube channel is https://www.youtube.com/user/Scipaeus/videos please subcribe to me, give me donations and worship me for I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt have no other gods before me
^^ relevant because I have the 1st clears of several champions uploaded
On December 01 2014 20:07 Scip wrote: Warwick is the slowest champion I've tried so far
Really? I can start golem, smite red, birds, wolves, smite blue, gromp all in one go. With Rengar I start smiting red, then wolves and smite blue but i barely survive using 2 red potions. With ww 1/no potions o.o
Both of those paths are awful, you're supposed to smite holems if you start them and you should never start red or blue. Check out the highlights on my twitch profile I linked earlier to get a better idea of how to jungle.
can you explain the reasoning behind why you should never start red or blue?
smiting the frog or rocks gives you a buff that either increases your clear speed or makes you take less damage and you want to smite the first camp you take so that the cooldown is up as soon as possible.
Anyone tried poppy jungle yet? I tried her out after a accident when communications in solo que was so bad and I felt like he is pretty damn good in the new jungle. She can do the first clear without backing and got decent ganks and is extremely strong in the late game.
On December 03 2014 01:29 SoSexy wrote: but smiting red gives u health, so u could save money on potions, or not?
But you only need health if you smite at the end of the buff, so you're slowing your clear speed by misusing your smite CD. Additionally the smite on frog or golems will similarly increase your health by increasing your clear speed (and stunning camps so that you take less damage)
On December 02 2014 19:30 Scip wrote: Which is exactly why you didn't post any information about his jungling whatsoever
Start Machete + 2 hp pots, spam Q in fountain to get passive on next cast. Take whichever trinket you want.
Start blue, cast Q at 1:48 to have voidling with frenzy when it spawns, let voidling take 2 hits and then tank buff + smite it. Clear wolves, red, wraiths (smite wraith, not red), go back and get Smite of choice + pots + ward. Prime your passive while in fountain.
Go clear dragon using wraith buff thing, casting Q when you walk past wraiths/wolves so that it frenzies when you start dragon and then take it at level 3 with aggro swap. Farm until ult and then use ult for ganks and voidlings for objective control. Ult their divers in fights.
I still favor smiting both golems and red, because that lets almost every melee champion make it through a full clear. It can be risky if you think your first blue buff will be stolen, or if you think you'll be needed on the blue buff side of the map for a lv3 countergank, but leaving camps uncleared during the first back feels really inefficient.
On December 03 2014 05:24 MidnightGladius wrote: I still favor smiting both golems and red, because that lets almost every melee champion make it through a full clear. It can be risky if you think your first blue buff will be stolen, or if you think you'll be needed on the blue buff side of the map for a lv3 countergank, but leaving camps uncleared during the first back feels really inefficient.
What kind of an abomination is your jungle path that it allows you to smite both golems and red
This is my first time recording/uploading, so I apologize for the resolution/capture window. Hopefully it still provides enough information to help you.
I took Hecarim, who's not a very strong jungler right now by any stretch of the imagination (and I remember Seuss asking me about it a few weeks ago, so two birds with one stone and all that). This is the route I take with every jungler I play right now (Nocturne, Xin, Diana, Sejuani). As you can see, Hecarim barely lives, and Sej isn't much better off, but the others are all at ~75%.
My runes are [Attack Speed, Flat Armor, Scaling CDR, Flat Armor], and my masteries are 21/9/0. I chose not to kite any of the camps for reasons of repeatability and consistency. I imagine that that would slow down the clear but result in less damage taken.
EDIT: I realize the capture window doesn't include the in-game time. I started my recall at 4:09.
On December 01 2014 19:42 Scip wrote: This is the 1st Nocturne clear I'd reccomend: http://www.twitch.tv/scipaeus/c/5597647 attack speed reds and quints, armor yellows, CDR blues, 9/21/0. I'm not convinced building a lot of dmg is a good idea on Nocturne, I think I'd like the skirmisher+devourer+tank build better on him, so this setup is geared towards that+best early jungle. I fucked up the clear a few times, didn't hit all the dudes with my autoattack on red, autoattacked 1 time too many on wolves (shoulda stopped, waited for my passive autoattack) which would give me a stun on the frog just before the golem buff would run out and then I clearly didn't do the blue buff perfectly, but close enough.
Eh, not sold on it. Nocturne doesn't have the steroids nor escapes necessary to make for a useful tank, even Irelia is better for that, and devourer alone won't give him the damage, it makes him as useless past midgame as he was in previous seasons. I'd rather get ranger's trailblazer for faster farming and then warrior. His ult's cooldown is so unnecessary long (Riot pls, Ziggs' cancer had a standard cd for the longest time but Nocturne's ult is so long?) that CDR does a lot for him to provide 1-2 more casts in the early-midgame, hence why lizard+brutaliser was pretty great on him for the early 20%.
I think I'd rather go trailblazer-warrior + either ghostblade or BotRK, then full tank. In the lategame I'll be as useless as ever but it keeps me relevant for longer, and I have better damage than basing it all on AS when I get kited.
You're in luck, I just put up a video/description of Hecarim fully clearing. It is 3 posts above yours. I haven't had much trouble keeping up the clear speed after buying ranger's and level 4 with QWQW. Are you making sure to wait for 2 Q stacks before casting W?
Akali fullclear done in 4:04, I'm sure it could be a few seconds faster if you had some myserious optimal runepage or any micro at all, both of which i don't
I used 21/9/0 for that time, you can also go 9/21/0, it's a bit slower (by about 2-3 seconds) but in return you basially do not fall below 30% hp ever, which is also nice
Runes were 2 armor quints, 1 flat AD quit, flat AD marks, armor seals, flat AP glyphs
standard path starting golems
it...works with real runes it could work well I think.
Scip, KR teams on 4.20 in OGN seem to be building Rangers on pretty much every champ, even the almighty Warwick. Do you recommend this? If not, what champs would you build something else on?
I'm not a huge fan of Rangers on everyone, I'd reccomend going Skirmisher at least on WW, Yi and Skarner, probably on Olaf, possibly on Eve. I'm not exactly sure why everyone has a boner for Rangers tbh. I am extremely sceptical of Panth being S tier. On the topic of Hecarim, I highly prefer my 3:33 5camp clear
Considering that monster level and exp/gold rewards don't start scaling until after you've killed them the first time, I don't see why you would leave a camp uncleared during the initial route if it would be possible to clear it.
This is emphasized by the new jungle experience scaling change: Champions gain 10% less experience for each level they are above the camp they are killing. This penalty caps at 50%.
If you recall and do the camp that you left up (golems in this case), the camp near it (wraiths) won't have respawned yet. How much time are you actually saving? Considering that the 70 gold from the golems camp also gets you a ward or 2 pots, I'd say 36 seconds is a small price to pay.
So you leave the level 1 golem camp up until your second full clear? At that point you're level 5, so you're getting only 60% of the camp's experience.
Thank you for sharing your opinions. I'll keep the 3:33 5 camp benchmark in mind if my red buff gets invaded or if I'm on blue side and my duo lane really wants the exp advantage.
I'm glad that we're making progress and improving the first full clear. Would you share the runes and masteries that you used during that video? That would be helpful for further optimization. I don't understand your comment about smugness. If you felt offended by something I wrote earlier, I assure you that that was not the intention. Wouldn't you agree that we are now both better informed than we were previously?
On December 01 2014 19:42 Scip wrote: This is the 1st Nocturne clear I'd reccomend: http://www.twitch.tv/scipaeus/c/5597647 attack speed reds and quints, armor yellows, CDR blues, 9/21/0. I'm not convinced building a lot of dmg is a good idea on Nocturne, I think I'd like the skirmisher+devourer+tank build better on him, so this setup is geared towards that+best early jungle. I fucked up the clear a few times, didn't hit all the dudes with my autoattack on red, autoattacked 1 time too many on wolves (shoulda stopped, waited for my passive autoattack) which would give me a stun on the frog just before the golem buff would run out and then I clearly didn't do the blue buff perfectly, but close enough.
Bit of a bump, but I did the same route. 8AD reds, 1ASmark/quints(don't ask), armor yellow/blue. 15/15/0 masteries(taking stuff to reduce jungle damage). Same route, finished gromp roughly 130 health higher than you did, high enough to kill blue without kiting it, and full clear comes in at 4:00, pretty much where you would've finished. Doesn't scale quite as well once you've finished a devourer(probably ~2-3% dps loss), but I think finishing jungle more than 100 health higher is well worth considering, especially if you need to kite blue, and are minimally above oneshot range.
On December 06 2014 06:47 Scip wrote: I'm not a huge fan of Rangers on everyone, I'd reccomend going Skirmisher at least on WW, Yi and Skarner, probably on Olaf, possibly on Eve. I'm not exactly sure why everyone has a boner for Rangers tbh. I am extremely sceptical of Panth being S tier.
Panth was S tier before the most recent patch simply because of the possibility of lvl 2/lvl 3 drag. I know winrates aren't everything but the top 3 winrates for the world for all ranked in the last week is WW>>>Panth>Fiddles 1/2/3, and for Diamond only its Panth>WW>Fiddles. Given the heavy nerfing of panth from the actual nerfs combined with the changes to drag, its clear Riot saw him as wayy too strong.
On December 06 2014 16:02 MidnightGladius wrote: I'm glad that we're making progress and improving the first full clear. Would you share the runes and masteries that you used during that video? That would be helpful for further optimization. I don't understand your comment about smugness. If you felt offended by something I wrote earlier, I assure you that that was not the intention. Wouldn't you agree that we are now both better informed than we were previously?
Still no response after this post and it's 4 days later.
This is supposed to be a fucking strategy forum, jesus.
I've found that any champ that can mitigate damage in any way (shields, stuns, heals, fear, etc) can clear FAR better than other more traditional jungles. Malphite and Diana actually clear super well for me, and both can easily do a full 6-camp clear without fear of death. Volibear is solid too, and Reksai with a decent leash can clear well enough.
And interestingly enough, Taric can clear pretty well too. Jungle Gems!
On December 06 2014 16:02 MidnightGladius wrote: I'm glad that we're making progress and improving the first full clear. Would you share the runes and masteries that you used during that video? That would be helpful for further optimization. I don't understand your comment about smugness. If you felt offended by something I wrote earlier, I assure you that that was not the intention. Wouldn't you agree that we are now both better informed than we were previously?
Still no response after this post and it's 4 days later.
This is supposed to be a fucking strategy forum, jesus.
They're in the video description, like they are for all of scip's other videos.
Thanks for pointing that out, I had only been watching the embedded videos and reading his posts on TL. After some more tests, going from AS reds to AD reds is a definite improvement, with the Krugs-starting route finishing 6 camps at 4:02. This is still slower, partially as a result of swapping flat CDR blues for scaling CDR blues and partially as a result of starting Krugs.
Regardless, this shows that no matter whether you're on the blue or purple team, you can give your duo lane a camp, start on the other side of the map, and still clear 6 camps (the one your duo lane took will respawn by the time you reach it). In fact, because that camp has respawned once and will be higher-leveled, you'll end up with more EXP than you would otherwise. One possible downside would be that the respawned camp is too difficult to take, but the amount of damage mitigated from a leash should help balance that out in an actual game.
It's not really information, but I love the new jungle. It has you running around after stuff like never before. It rewards you with a skirmish anytime you manage to handle your jungle, I love it.
After grinding out a big chunk of games with one of my League buddies XGP, my current feelings is that thus far my preferred jungle might unexpectedly be Skarner. This clear method started out as a mistake as the new standard play has become to start at frog and rotate to blue after, but I found out be pure accident that starting blue is likely actually the better play. There is not a lot of incentive to counter jungle yet in the new jungle as it beats your ass pretty hard. If you get walked in on by a healthy jungle and you are taking damage from the camp, you are going to have a bad time. Clear speed seems to be less the thing and just finishing the cycle and being healthy enough to gank after red seems to be all that matters right now. This rotation with Skarner gives you that option and is still very fast. I will be trying this clear with other junglers, likely Udyr and seeing how it goes. I will be sure to post updates about that as well. I do not come out as healthy as I could in the video, but this was a a first attempt and after repeating it a couple times you should be at arounf 2/3's to 3/4 health.
Note: Resistance, Bladed Armor and Tough SKin are maxed. The rest I am sure could be tweaked to preference but my other points are in Perseverance, Oppression and Second Wind. With the Standard Recovery, Veteran's Scar, Juggernaut and Hardiness.
That clear was pretty bad, you can do a full clear without pull in 3:43 with skarner , I guess a tiny bit slower if you replace CDR blues with Mres blues (which you shouldn't). The execution was really bad, you didnt carry over Q stacks between camps, you're supposed to carry over stacks from gromp to blue to wolves, then from birds to red to golems (I didnt carry over to golems successfully in the video, sad times. Might upload a better one once I get home). You also attacked the small dudes on wraiths unnecessarily. Starting Gromp is simply better because regardless of your lvl1 middle laner cant provide more than an autoattack and a spell, so you get more value from getting the frog passive faster by starting there. Also, if Im not mistaken, you cant carry over stacks from frog to wolves until like lvl9 and boots1 without pulling the frog out, slowing you down even further.
dont use W just to block dmg, you should use it to get as much value as possible from the movement speed and to allow you to carry Q stacks over.
If you read the post you would see that I said it was incredibly unpolished and just something I stumbled upon that was worth thinking about. I mention that it is less about the clear time and more about the health and would concede you all of those points.
Thanks for your remarks they are appreciated I can always get better but please do not disregard my intention entirely.
Your higher hp from the clear is certainly partially a result of getting a pull on blue buff as opposed to frog who does less damage (I estimate about 100hp save) but the extra hp comes mostly from 1. being slower which makes your hp5 do more work and 2. using your W primarily to absorb damage rather than travel faster between camps. As early aggresion (at least so far) doesn't seem to focus on early invades but rather on early ganks, the extra hp isnt worth the slower clear time.
I don't mind you posting here, I don't think anyone does, the post was well structured and with a clear, good intention, I just found your conclusions to be incorrect. My dismissive tone wasn't intended to intimidate you (or anyone else) from posting here, it's just expressing the degree of confidence I have in my own conclusions (I did a fair amount of tests with Skarner, he used to be my main afterall).
Also, flat AD reds might be better on Skarner as opposed to attack speed reds, not sure about that yet. It doesn't hurt his early clear (havent been able to detect any difference in clear time), but Im not sure which ones scale better. I imagine that if you go Warrior into tank then attack speed is still better, but maybe Ill do a bit of math later.
On December 25 2014 17:03 Basic wrote: If you read the post you would see that I said it was incredibly unpolished and just something I stumbled upon that was worth thinking about. I mention that it is less about the clear time and more about the health and would concede you all of those points.
Thanks for your remarks they are appreciated I can always get better but please do not disregard my intention entirely.
Regardless I wont post here again, sorry.
Basic.
Dude, your post was overall very read-able and of a higher content than many other users on this sub-forum. Though the content might be off, due to rating differences, you write like a God.
On December 25 2014 17:03 Basic wrote: If you read the post you would see that I said it was incredibly unpolished and just something I stumbled upon that was worth thinking about. I mention that it is less about the clear time and more about the health and would concede you all of those points.
Thanks for your remarks they are appreciated I can always get better but please do not disregard my intention entirely.
Regardless I wont post here again, sorry.
Basic.
Dude, your post was overall very read-able and of a higher content than many other users on this sub-forum. Though the content might be off, due to rating differences, you write like a God.
Don't stop posting, keep believing.
Yeah man, just because Scip probably has the biggest e-peen here doesn't mean nobody else can post or attempt to contribute. You're not the first or last person Scip is gonna disagree with. Like it's been mentioned, you can tell the amount of effort you put in your post which is great because it makes discussions much more easier for everyone whether you're right or wrong.
TL;DR - It's fine to be wrong, don't let someone correcting you discourage you from posting.
I appreciate your candid remarks and warmer tone, all of you. This game and people's attitudes towards it can be harsh and abrasive and I was not really looking to get in to an eFight about the mathematical proficiency of one clear vs another.
In Regards to AS Runes:
I believe AD runes are only preferable if your item choice reflects that you have no interest in AS as stat. Since the build I think that functions best on Skarner revolves around AS, I believe it is preferable to the play style.
I do not like Sheen based Skarner builds, at least not as a starting item. I believe lvl 1 jungle item followed directly by boots and Glacial Shroud provide the healthiest mid game clearing and stronger ganks. The relationship between CDR and AS provide a very strong level of synergy with Skarner, to strong too ignore. Personally going in to Frozen Heart and then Wit's End just feels good to me, with the Juggernaut upgrade and Merc Treads beign slipped in where appropriate.
It has always been my feeling that core builds revolve around four items and the method to which you get them and how they help you at the point you get them. I rune to exacerbate item proficiency. AD runes would mean a different build that I do not feel would take naturally to my play style.
Did some testing on J4, pretty straightforward jungle route: the same as in fe Scip's Hecarim video works (Frog->Blue->Wolves->Wraiths->Red->Golems) but you need to kite the camps because otherwise you WILL die. Learn to kite that shit, it's pretty easy.
Runes: AS Quints, AD reds, Armor yellows (could probably switch some of these out for Armor/lvl or whatever you want, test it yourself), CDR blues (i don't have them but they help you get 2 knockups instead of 1 per flag so they are pretty huge, worth the IP investment) Masteries: 21/9/0 get the standard stuff, you know the deal, no explanation needed. Level E then Q then W.
You should finish the route with around 100 HP, back and get your items and you're good to go.
Why does J4 want AS quints instead of AD? His kit seems to suggest AD or ArPen (AS buff from E, good AD scaling on Q/R, % max health damage that doesn't scale with AS). Maybe AS is better for his Q armor debuff?
I doubt leveling Q->W->Q will make a big difference. Actually, maybe it will... One extra level of Q reduces the cooldown by one second, which means the cooldown becomes 9*0,875=7,875 seconds (instead of 10*0,875=8,75 seconds) which means that with (near) perfect execution you could get 2 knockups at level 3 (Flag remains for 8 seconds). The damage mitigation from the shield probably doesn't outweigh the damage reduction you get from the double knockup. Good point, I'll test it today or tomorrow. I'll also note the clear time.
E: just realised you get blue buff so the extra level of Q doesn't matter because you'll have 22,5% CDR with the CDR blues and 5% cdr mastery which means the cooldown will be 7,75 seconds at level 1. With a Red side start it could still make a difference. Will test.
About the AS quints: Hunter's Machete Passive: Jungler - Deal 30 magic damage on hit to monsters over 2 seconds and gain 7 health and 3 mana per second while in combat with monsters.
Machete promotes attack speed quints, basically. You get a faster clear and it's less risky. AD/ArPen quints are only worth it when your champ scales with them really well (fe Pantheon). Jarvan scales well enough with attack speed to use AS quints, and the Korean overlords use it too and who am i to question them (jk).
You could probably use AD/ArPen but your clear time will suffer and i don't know if you could still do the 6 camp route without backing. I won't test it though.
On December 28 2014 00:24 Immortall wrote: Could you enlighten me then? Why would all these pro players run AS quints on a lot of champs when AD could/would be better?
A lot of pro players are creatures of habit or just wait for people to figure something out, put it on a big shiny reddit post or whatnot, and just copy that. AS still does pretty much everything it used to do, it just isn't the best anymore. Unless you're really caring about the minutia of it all, you aren't looking to check unless there is a direct change.
So I know Darius has never been good jungling material (And some would argue that he isn't even good in lane), but does anyone have any thoughts about Darius jungle in season 5?
On a more relevant note, how is Jarvan in the new jungle? Is he still decent or am I playing all the wrong champions?
On December 29 2014 14:43 Frudgey wrote: So I know Darius has never been good jungling material (And some would argue that he isn't even good in lane), but does anyone have any thoughts about Darius jungle in season 5?
On a more relevant note, how is Jarvan in the new jungle? Is he still decent or am I playing all the wrong champions?
Popular opinion by western pros seems to be that they consider Jarvan and Lee the strongest junglers atm.
question about where to start—on lee and a few others, I've felt a lot better with the old red-wolves-blue start on blue side. Having the 1% max hp/5 from the onset usually leaves me healthy enough to gank without backing, sometimes with an extra pot depending on leash strength. (running 21/9/0) Should I basically be doing gromp start purple side and red start blue side?
Either Gromp start or Golems start, don't start red unless doing a gimmicky lvl2 gank. Smiting Golems will save you tons of hp with the stun and stuff, way more than smiting Red at the start.
I really like smite gromp-blue-smite red then gank path. Level 3 ganks are far less frequent and also I have gotten so many first bloods by hunting the enemy's jungler super low trying to clear 6 camps before first back
On December 30 2014 13:32 IamPryda wrote: I really like smite gromp-blue-smite red then gank path. Level 3 ganks are far less frequent and also I have gotten so many first bloods by hunting the enemy's jungler super low trying to clear 6 camps before first back
yeah, making the other jungler's life hell is my preferred style this season, smite his wraith to take the buff and then ward the fuck out of it and just keep killing him over and over
On December 29 2014 14:43 Frudgey wrote: So I know Darius has never been good jungling material (And some would argue that he isn't even good in lane), but does anyone have any thoughts about Darius jungle in season 5?
On a more relevant note, how is Jarvan in the new jungle? Is he still decent or am I playing all the wrong champions?
Give it a whirl in some normals and tell us how it goes. I might even be tempted to do so. Most of Darius's weakness is that his CC is very short ranged, how ever getting the blue jungle item allows him to CC at a distance which very well make him viable. The Smite slow lets you get close enough to drag with E and slow again with W.
Everything is worth considering, nothing is entirely figured out. Darius has decently good stats, in particular AS, so his clear should be decent and would be a tankier jungle for sure. I would try 9.21.0 first with AD or AS jungle runes
Is it terrible to try to get away with clearing half a jungle, backing for upgraded Machete, and clearing the other half with the benefit of +20 gold per camp? It risks counterjungling but if you were going to be low health anyway it's both safer and more lucrative to do Golems/Red/Raptors -> base -> Gromp/Blue/Wolves.
On January 06 2015 00:02 GrandInquisitor wrote: Is it terrible to try to get away with clearing half a jungle, backing for upgraded Machete, and clearing the other half with the benefit of +20 gold per camp? It risks counterjungling but if you were going to be low health anyway it's both safer and more lucrative to do Golems/Red/Raptors -> base -> Gromp/Blue/Wolves.
All depends on if you think your opponent is going to be aware of the timing and try to exploit it.
Machete itself gives +10 gold from big monsters, so you're only getting 30 extra gold by backing after 3 camps for the upgraded +20 gold from big monsters. There are certainly reasons to aim for clearing different numbers of camps at the start, but I don't think the 30 gold should be at the front of your mind when making that decision. I'd personally be more concerned about the gold thresholds from clearing 3/6 camps, the jungle match-up and risk of dying at camps 4-6, and when and where you intend to go for your first gank.
Due to the start on frog instead of Blue, my room mate and I have been exploiting the smiteless blue by having our own team hard leash our red, killing it with out smite, walking over to the enemy jungle dropping a ward and smiting blue away from them. I fully expect this play to become common place in not too long and for us to see a switch back to blue or red first.
Hard leashes to kill a camp without smite may (or may not) be decent for the jungler, but they certainly destroy your own botlane if they have to help with the leash. They cannot do their golems anymore, lose the race for lvl2 and therefore control of the lane.
Edit: Might work on red side though if their jungler starts frog and you start red with top & mid leashing. Edit2: Stealing buffs is also not that big of a deal for most junglers anymore, because the smaller creeps next to the buffcreep give a lot more xp than in season 4. So a buffsteal is not so bad in terms of xp.
On January 07 2015 05:10 Basic wrote: Due to the start on frog instead of Blue, my room mate and I have been exploiting the smiteless blue by having our own team hard leash our red, killing it with out smite, walking over to the enemy jungle dropping a ward and smiting blue away from them. I fully expect this play to become common place in not too long and for us to see a switch back to blue or red first.
Regards,
Basic
That's fairly unlikely to become standard as any lvl1 ward around those places in the river will make that ineffective
On January 07 2015 05:10 Basic wrote: Due to the start on frog instead of Blue, my room mate and I have been exploiting the smiteless blue by having our own team hard leash our red, killing it with out smite, walking over to the enemy jungle dropping a ward and smiting blue away from them. I fully expect this play to become common place in not too long and for us to see a switch back to blue or red first.
Regards,
Basic
That's fairly unlikely to become standard as any lvl1 ward around those places in the river will make that ineffective
It also fails if the enemy jungler for whatever reason pulls golem towards his brush so it is out of range for your smite. I've had a lot of success with something quite similar.
Whenever I play Lee I start red, kill it with smite and head towards enemy blue and ward jump over the wall to their blue. Either they started krugs so you just take their blue or they started gromp and should be about to finish blue with 100-300hp on blue left. You can either try stealing blue with Q execute or go for the jungler. You should be able to at least force them to flash.
The flattening of EXP over camps makes early counterjungling slightly less punishing than it used to be, outside of the few truly blue-reliant junglers. As long as you don't actually die (and this is more of a risk at camps 4-6 when an invader has 3 skills and your hp is much lower), you can still catch back up in levels just by doing non-buff camps.
On January 07 2015 05:10 Basic wrote: Due to the start on frog instead of Blue, my room mate and I have been exploiting the smiteless blue by having our own team hard leash our red, killing it with out smite, walking over to the enemy jungle dropping a ward and smiting blue away from them. I fully expect this play to become common place in not too long and for us to see a switch back to blue or red first.
Regards,
Basic
That's fairly unlikely to become standard as any lvl1 ward around those places in the river will make that ineffective
It also fails if the enemy jungler for whatever reason pulls golem towards his brush so it is out of range for your smite. I've had a lot of success with something quite similar.
Whenever I play Lee I start red, kill it with smite and head towards enemy blue and ward jump over the wall to their blue. Either they started krugs so you just take their blue or they started gromp and should be about to finish blue with 100-300hp on blue left. You can either try stealing blue with Q execute or go for the jungler. You should be able to at least force them to flash.
if you wardjump and then steal blue with q how are you getting out? why not just take q e and walk around to their blue and kill them guaranteed
It is going to have an impact no matter what I would say. The current state seems to be punishable and with things so fresh in season five, it seems unlikely to stay so static. Perhaps it is drastic to say a switch back to buffs first, but it needs to be respected. In regards to Krugs, there are a few junglers who are clearing so fast that if you take Krugs they have to sit there and wait. Might still be best they are taken, but I am not so sure about it. Also I believe they are patching out the camps being as kiteable as the are now.
I think you are right to some extent, you just overstated the impact (at first at least). Some sneaky blue buff steals can be a useful cheese strat against blue dependent junglers. Of course, correct warding will prevent it, just like correct scouting stops cheese in sc2. Nevertheless it may sometimes be a gamble worth taking and it would not completely surprise me if someone tries it in a tournament setting (and in soloq any cheese can work - I've seen my share of lvl 1 Nunu buffsteals).
On January 07 2015 05:10 Basic wrote: Due to the start on frog instead of Blue, my room mate and I have been exploiting the smiteless blue by having our own team hard leash our red, killing it with out smite, walking over to the enemy jungle dropping a ward and smiting blue away from them. I fully expect this play to become common place in not too long and for us to see a switch back to blue or red first.
Regards,
Basic
That's fairly unlikely to become standard as any lvl1 ward around those places in the river will make that ineffective
It also fails if the enemy jungler for whatever reason pulls golem towards his brush so it is out of range for your smite. I've had a lot of success with something quite similar.
Whenever I play Lee I start red, kill it with smite and head towards enemy blue and ward jump over the wall to their blue. Either they started krugs so you just take their blue or they started gromp and should be about to finish blue with 100-300hp on blue left. You can either try stealing blue with Q execute or go for the jungler. You should be able to at least force them to flash.
if you wardjump and then steal blue with q how are you getting out? why not just take q e and walk around to their blue and kill them guaranteed
Walking all the way around makes you arrive after they finished blue, there's no point to it. Also e doesn't help you 1v1 that much besides some lousy damage (no more AS slow). If you got blue you don't need to get out, you just kill the other jungler. Even if you didn't manage to get blue you go for the other jungler, he is at most at 60-70% hp while you are full because of smiting red and only doing one camp. The enemy can't duel you because you are lvl 2 lee with red. So what basically happens is that you either get or don't get blue but the enemy jungler has to flash to get away and is too low to do anything. If the other teams mid is coming for help you should go towards them and try to fight, they wont have hit lvl 3 yet and if your midlaner reacts you turn it into a very easy 2v1.
On January 07 2015 21:01 Prog wrote: I think you are right to some extent, you just overstated the impact (at first at least). Some sneaky blue buff steals can be a useful cheese strat against blue dependent junglers. Of course, correct warding will prevent it, just like correct scouting stops cheese in sc2. Nevertheless it may sometimes be a gamble worth taking and it would not completely surprise me if someone tries it in a tournament setting (and in soloq any cheese can work - I've seen my share of lvl 1 Nunu buffsteals).
I'd say as of right now 90% of players ward either as they arrive at river (~0:40) or wait till 1:00. These wards won't spot you coming right after doing red. Player warding behaviour certainly changes over time but right now this is a nice thing to abuse.
Since this is the "jungle thread" I hope its the right place for this question.
I a new player and also new to Jungle-ing. I have two characters that I have used in the jungle enough times to be 'somewhat' comfortable with, Warwick and Fiddle Sticks.If I am trying to be a good team player and help my team win, when should I pick one vs the other? What factors about my team would make one or the other stronger?
If I get to the point when I'm playing draft instead of blind, what factors about the opposing team would make one or the other stronger?
Since someone else bumped the topic I also have a question. It seems to me like lot of people (even high elo like Scip) will always do the same jungle route for given champion every game. This seems extremely dangerous to me as getting counter-jungled seems to completely shut down even junglers who don't have much trouble with clearing - and since most people do the same path, it seems like early invading is a really good idea. Even in our inhouses I only avoided getting killed by a Jarvan because I have a very unusual route (Gromp -> Wolves -> Red so that I'm level 3, with red and max hp after smiting red and drinking 1 pot). So why don't we see lots of invades? Is it just gentleman's agreement? Is it because invaded jungler always has the advantage for some reason? Do you just assume that jungle entrances are always warded and thus don't risk invading?
On January 16 2015 03:31 AlterKot wrote: Since someone else bumped the topic I also have a question. It seems to me like lot of people (even high elo like Scip) will always do the same jungle route for given champion every game. This seems extremely dangerous to me as getting counter-jungled seems to completely shut down even junglers who don't have much trouble with clearing - and since most people do the same path, it seems like early invading is a really good idea. Even in our inhouses I only avoided getting killed by a Jarvan because I have a very unusual route (Gromp -> Wolves -> Red so that I'm level 3, with red and max hp after smiting red and drinking 1 pot). So why don't we see lots of invades? Is it just gentleman's agreement? Is it because invaded jungler always has the advantage for some reason? Do you just assume that jungle entrances are always warded and thus don't risk invading?
This I actually don't know. Consider the fact that most people will head straight out of base to the river areas and drop their trinket wards around a minute or so. I do think that by the time you finish your first camp and get level 2, most wards will be down already. I actually don't see why people don't just go fuck with others at the second/third camps, but I think a lot of it has to do with unfamiliarity of a lot of players with new jungle routes because as you said people do different things and it's hard to predict. That's why if I'm aiming to invade, I'm a fan of the level 2 because most people will do the secondary camp -> buff camp these days because it's just "meta" to do so.
On January 16 2015 03:31 AlterKot wrote: Since someone else bumped the topic I also have a question. It seems to me like lot of people (even high elo like Scip) will always do the same jungle route for given champion every game. This seems extremely dangerous to me as getting counter-jungled seems to completely shut down even junglers who don't have much trouble with clearing - and since most people do the same path, it seems like early invading is a really good idea. Even in our inhouses I only avoided getting killed by a Jarvan because I have a very unusual route (Gromp -> Wolves -> Red so that I'm level 3, with red and max hp after smiting red and drinking 1 pot). So why don't we see lots of invades? Is it just gentleman's agreement? Is it because invaded jungler always has the advantage for some reason? Do you just assume that jungle entrances are always warded and thus don't risk invading?
I don't think it's worth to invade the enemy on their third camp. As far as I can tell, junglers are typically pathing gromp-blue-wolves-red or krugs-red-wolves-blue. For instance, if you're on blue side and you go to invade red side wolf camp, the enemy is so close to their inner turret you're not likely to get a kill, but you are likely to waste a lot of time. Then there's the off chance bot lane/mid lane show up and kill you. If the laners don't come and help what's the reward? Wolf camp?
Another reason might be, like you said, different jungle routes. Some people go gromp-blue-wolves-jungle item. So invading their red buff might be a waste of time and actually put you at a disadvantage.
What do you mean invade lvl2, as in start golems/red buff and then go straight to the enemy blue? Meh
If I remember correctly you wouldn't have died had you went standard route either Alterkot, but you'd be forced to give up your blue without any wards giving you a warning in advance.
The reason why I go pretty much the same jungle path early game for each champion is because there is usually a massive timeloss or a complete waste in any alteration of the path, just the consequence of how the jungle is arranged right now. It might very well be that some invading jungle paths (perhaps golems->red->wraiths->enemy blue vs a golems starting enemy? just theorycrafting here) are viable and not accounted for by many people. I haven't spent any time on exploring them though. I'd just like to say that if you wish to do so, you should focus on discovering and testing very concrete and precise jungle paths; any other way of "invading" early is not gonna be worth the time loss and danger.
Also, what champion exactly do you propose people should invade with? I guess Lee Sin's early invades should be alright in theory. If Kha'Zix gets a decent pull I should think he is still formidable lvl3 too. Can't think of any other champions; either lacking in killing potential or drop too low on hp to invade.
Minor notes from the leashing change with regard to range-abusing junglers:
Only really affects wolves and red buff, the latter of which can still be kited / pulled around the backside of the rock cove thing. If you do single target damage, you can still start with the little wolves and then just start the big one after it hits it 5 leashes and resets. It will probably hard reset at least once unless you're willing to tank damage or have smite up. Basically it's either way slower (effectively gains a few hundred health or so) or you take damage (make it soft reset 4 times and then tank it). Red buff is similar, but due to it's higher HP total it will reset more than once unless you tank or kite around the back. That's super slow and dumb, so I suggest tanking it for speed whenever possible.
Doing a full clear without taking damage has become basically impossible (or just takes more skill than I have, I guess). This obviously means some ranged junglers just can't full clear / infinite jungle, or clear and have lots of HP left over to gank / invade anymore, which was their only selling point over many otherwise better junglers. Rocks -> Red -> Birds -> lv3 Gank still works alright if you're into early ganks. Frog -> Blue -> Wolves -> lv3 Gank is way harder than the above and I don't recommend. Twitch works fine but it's defs a nerf to his versatility, but he was always a niche jungler anyways and this just shoehorns him a bit more. I'm not gonna pretend it was ever particularly good or anything. Kayle basically unaffected, range buff expires after leash cap anyway. Things that kind of sucked before like Annie I can't make work anymore. I dunno about melee kiting like Eve.
Also, a mechanics question for Scip: How many tries / how much time do you spend perfecting your PvE with a specific champion, generally? I'm sure a lot of it is general PvE mechanics that you carry over from champ to champ, but when practicing with a new jungler how much practice would you say is worth it?
Some champions are pretty easy and you can do them correctly on like 5th try, some champions take longer, took like 2 hours practicing Skarner and maybe 4-5? on Eve. Practice is worth it until you can do 1st clear perfectly or very close to (if you can do 1st clear perfectly, you can probably do all subsequent clears perfectly too). The difference between having a good early clear and not is absolutely staggering and if you're a jungle main PvE practice until perfect is probably the fastest way to improve your win%.
Oh, before you practice PvE for the love of all that is holy make sure you use the proper runes and masteries. The guidelines for jungle are pretty simple but if you're unsure you can consult me.
The preferred Eve path is probably Frog->Blue->Wolves base or perhaps Golems->Red->Wraiths base now. You have no chance of doing 6 camp clear and honestly 4-5 camp clear that allows you to get a lot of mana pots isn't particularly useful because with purple smite thing you can probably sustain for long enough until your 2nd back and the utility of early pink wards is somewhat questionable on Eve. I'm uncertain about whether you want to go Skirmisher or Stalkers before you upgrade to Warrior's but I think it depends and I think Skirmisher might very well be viable in certain cases (1 very important damage threat that will likely focus you).
Random thoughts: Pretty much every jungler wants to get Trailblazer on first back and then change it just before they upgrate it into their jungle item of choice. With Rammus I've been experimenting with Sunfire first build, in which case you switch to Stalker's right after you get Sunfire. This change is a buff to all Trailblazer champions. I still don't see Poacher's ever beign worth it.
The preferred Eve path is probably Frog->Blue->Wolves base or perhaps Golems->Red->Wraiths base now. You have no chance of doing 6 camp clear and honestly 4-5 camp clear that allows you to get a lot of mana pots isn't particularly useful because with purple smite thing you can probably sustain for long enough until your 2nd back and the utility of early pink wards is somewhat questionable on Eve. I'm uncertain about whether you want to go Skirmisher or Stalkers before you upgrade to Warrior's but I think it depends and I think Skirmisher might very well be viable in certain cases (1 very important damage threat that will likely focus you).
Random thoughts: Pretty much every jungler wants to get Trailblazer on first back and then change it just before they upgrate it into their jungle item of choice. With Rammus I've been experimenting with Sunfire first build, in which case you switch to Stalker's right after you get Sunfire. This change is a buff to all Trailblazer champions. I still don't see Poacher's ever beign worth it.
For eve, I quite like doubles --> wraiths --> red. It's slower than doing doubles red wraiths, but it does leave you enough HP to go for a gank or to full clear (though it's slow as fuck) depending on the situation.
3 camps --> back works well too, but I think it's a little too predictable in terms of your gank timings. (And I think Eve is pretty much only good when you can get an early lead, so it's vital to make one of your first ganks work).