[LCS] All-Star Tournament - Page 264
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Vlanitak
Norway3045 Posts
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ketchup
14521 Posts
I guess the above is on the off chance someone from Riot is reading this thread | ||
caelym
United States6421 Posts
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nanospartan
649 Posts
On May 26 2013 16:33 caelym wrote: The dance is at 5:46:20 here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnnV7s9NMFA awwww, its private > | ||
Jojo131
Brazil1631 Posts
On May 26 2013 16:27 overt wrote: I know this will sound like a cop out but I'm 100% confident that if eSports was as big in NA, EU, or China then Korea would eventually be dethroned. Granted I don't think the vast majority of pro players in those regions would be there still because they'd be replaced by people who are just naturally better than them and/or who have a harder work ethic. But yeah, I feel like Korea's eSports culture and infrastructure give it the edge they need. I also think people are overrating the all-stars match a bit. If Korea dominates Worlds and we have three Koreans in the semi-finals with a Korea vs Korea S3 world finals then ok. We can start talking about Korean dominance. But Korea didn't win S2 and the last international event we had was won by China. Korea will probably surge ahead I just dunno if it's happened yet (and I'm not confident that China can't end up being competitive with them). Yeah, at the end of the day we need to keep in mind that all-stars was really just more of a fan-service type tournament, and that the real results will shine in Worlds when each player is with their respective teams, whom they've practiced with the most/have the best coordination with. For example although I'd never expect EU to win, you can definitely tell that they've underperformed this tournament mostly due to the lack of practice/cohesiveness that wouldn't have been the case if they were with their normal teams. It isn't really fair to say then that EU is THAT bad, considering the circumstances of the all-stars event. | ||
lefty
United States1896 Posts
On May 26 2013 16:26 thefreed wrote: It all comes out to structure. Koreans know how to become competitive in Esports. Look at Street fighter or like KOF, starcraft. I mean they just have this down to a science. They know that they need a coach that can analyze see things from a cold, logical viewpoint. Also the teams they practice with, a lot of the teams have a scrim partner like Najin, CJ, MVP. And the level of the teams are all really high, so they build each other up and make them stronger. And LOL is really getting big in Korea, so a lot of people are playing it I think that has to factor in as well. Lastly, I really think NA and EU need a really good progamer commentating with them, cause after I heard CloudTemplar commentating, it just made me understand the game more indepth. Also taking practicing long hours into account, it really depends on the teams. Like some teams in EU and NA practice as much as Koreans, but it's just they don't have a coach, and they're not using their time proficiently. If you had two teams under one club, then they could also get more opinions from the opponents stand point, but EU and NA don't really get as close as the Korean scene to help each other out. Taking all these things into account, is the reason why Korean scene is getting stronger faster then other regions... A word about proper analytical commentary, Cloud Templar always mentions what the losing team needs to do in great detail to turn the situation around or how we a winning team needs to snowball by doing this and that, and what each team needs to look out for. He is also is very frank about the decision made by the players throughout the game and their thought process behind it. I love it when how he mentions the "concept" behind some team composition and what they're going for. This I believe helps the common player very much as they get some insight on how pro's think and how the game should be played, No one from the English riot streams does this from my experience and I really never gain much from watching. | ||
Azarkon
United States21060 Posts
On May 26 2013 16:24 Caphe wrote: Ok, just look at regular sports. Basket ball in America, soccer in EU. Talents don't come with large population. Talents are the result of which country has the best infrastructure and system to actually brought them out. Just look at how big soccer is in EU and how well Germany, England, Spain doing in the world of soccer. It is the result of all of them have a strong domestic league, exceptional youth academy and talent scout. Korea has the same thing for e-sport. They are well supported by major corporation(Samsung, SK Telecom, CJ etc..), well covered on National TV, good structure of management with coaches for every teams. Its natural that they are successful and the rest of the world can only catch up if they can develop a similar system like in Korea. Infrastructure is one of those words where it's able to stand for just about everything having to do with eSports. I understand that Korea has better infrastructure. But what I wanted to find out was - what does this infrastructure consist of? One of the things that changed the way I viewed infrastructure was that, earlier in the year, while Korea was doing average in LoL - losing to TPA in S2, losing to CN in IPL, playing narrow games vs. M5, etc., but still having a decent showing and winning a few tournaments, was that I heard, from TheYango and a few others, that pros were flocking to the Korean LoL server because of its higher level of play, and that an average NA top 100 player was only a Diamond level player on Korea. Till then I was of the mind that Korea was not going to be what it was in SC 2. It was going to be one of the top scenes, sure, but given that LoL is so big everywhere else and Riot is developing team houses and improving player salaries in NA and EU, there's a decent shot Korea was never going to rise to what it was in SC. That's what I thought. But then I heard that even Chinese players, who at the time were thought to be the best in LoL, were going to the Korean server because of its better practice, and that the Chinese LoL server itself is a joke when it comes to skill. In retrospect, it was then and there that I ought to have known that Korea was going to take over LoL. Why is the Korean server ahead of other servers when it comes to skill? That is the question I now think takes greater importance over other questions of infrastructure. It's one thing to say that the top teams have better accommodations, salaries, coaches, resources, and training regimens. But such things don't make the server itself - which stands for the average player, better. Such things only ought to affect pro gamers. Yet the Korean server was better on average. Why is that? This is what took me to the idea of gaming culture, which I now think is the single greatest advantage Korea has over every other country in the world. | ||
thefreed
United States222 Posts
EU couldn't communicate with all their teams, I think SEA as well. So that's one of the reasons why they didn't perform as good as they could've. The world championships still up for any team to take. | ||
caelym
United States6421 Posts
On May 26 2013 16:34 Jojo131 wrote: Yeah, at the end of the day we need to keep in mind that all-stars was really just more of a fan-service type tournament, and that the real results will shine in Worlds when each player is with their respective teams, whom they've practiced with the most/have the best coordination with. For example although I'd never expect EU to win, you can definitely tell that they've underperformed this tournament mostly due to the lack of practice/cohesiveness that wouldn't have been the case if they were with their normal teams. It isn't really fair to say then that EU is THAT bad, considering the circumstances of the all-stars event. At the same time, All Star allowed regions to show off how good they are. Korea definitely did that, and so did China to a lesser extent (and NA to an even lesser extent). | ||
UnKooL
Korea (South)1667 Posts
On May 26 2013 16:20 NeoIllusions wrote: Oh, it's definitely not some bullshit like "oh, Koreans are born to be great at LoL". Fuck that. The top Korean teams (I'm talking about Blaze/Frost in particular), they practice a shitton, they discuss and strategize, and hone their skills to an art. Do people realize that Frost has made it to every OGN Finals thus far? That's 4 straight. It's obscene. And it all comes down to practice. Against NA, we saw it most vividly. Every one of Korea's lanes flat out dominated. Koreans take League serious as hell. There's no bullshitting when it comes to how they prepare. Yep, I watched Cloudtemplar yesterday talk about the hardships MIG/Frost faced at the early days of LoL in Korea. Cloud said they lived in a very small room where the computers they played on were right next to/on top of? where they slept and the Coach spent a lot of his own personal money to finance the team and Gunwoong's father helped them financially later on. He also said when they added blaze to the team the room they practiced in only had 5 computers so one team would play at the house and the other would have to go to PC bangs to practice and scrim and they would switch every other day or so. There is a lot of talk about infrastructure, but Frost didn't really benefit from Korean esports infrastructure at all when they first started, only when LoL started to catch on to mainstream gaming in Korea that infrastructure that was already in place like OGN and other sponsored pro teams helped to grow and foster amazing talent. So I don't really like it when people say that Korea is so good because it already has an esports infrastructure, yes it is a big part of it, but think of the pure passion and effort that a team like Frost/MIG put in to become who they are now. They faced a lot of hardships like many starting teams/organizations expanding different games like BW and SC2, and they don't benefit from the great "korean esports infastructure" until their passion for the game and their countless hours of practice at some point pays off and they gain recognition. | ||
truemafia
Korea (South)168 Posts
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Caphe
Vietnam10817 Posts
1.We see Samsung, LG, Olympus, Panasonic, ST Telecom, CJ etc in Korea. Do you see the same calibre of sponsors anywhere in the world? In NA most sponsors are small business of world giants like they are in Korea. 2. Broadcast on TV, first country to do so and only a decade later the rest of the world realise that its viable for them too. Even in China, there is no gaming channel only internet stream at best. 3. Small leagues in many games, there are middle school competition, high school and university competition. As far as I know none other countries has this. 4. Important of coaching, even now, NA/EU LOL teams don't have coach while BW teams in Korea has coach like a decade ago 5. The acceptance of the public. Gaming culture playing an important part here I admit that, but gaming culture can only breed good to very good amatuers players. If you want to compete in the world stage, systematically training and marketing are required. China has a very large gaming population and very large numbers of PC Bangs too thus breed alot of very good amature players but when they turn pro, they can't compete with Korea. | ||
ketchup
14521 Posts
On May 26 2013 16:41 UnKooL wrote: Yep, I watched Cloudtemplar yesterday talk about the hardships MIG/Frost faced at the early days of LoL in Korea. Cloud said they lived in a very small room where the computers they played on were right next to/on top of? where they slept and the Coach spent a lot of his own personal money to finance the team and Gunwoong's father helped them financially later on. He also said when they added blaze to the team the room they practiced in only had 5 computers so one team would play at the house and the other would have to go to PC bangs to practice and scrim and they would switch every other day or so. There is a lot of talk about infrastructure, but Frost didn't really benefit from Korean esports infrastructure at all when they first started, only when LoL started to catch on to mainstream gaming in Korea that infrastructure that was already in place like OGN and other sponsored pro teams helped to grow and foster amazing talent. So I don't really like it when people say that Korea is so good because it already has an esports infrastructure, yes it is a big part of it, but think of the pure passion and effort that a team like Frost/MIG put in to become who they are now. They faced a lot of hardships like many starting teams/organizations expanding different games like BW and SC2, and they don't benefit from the great "korean esports infastructure" until their passion for the game and their countless hours of practice at some point pays off and they gain recognition. Thank you for this information on the early days of LoL from other countries. I don't really know of any way for someone in NA to know this type of information. Slowly learning a Korean a bit to be able to read articles/get this information, but motivation is difficult for learning a language. At least the Korean alphabet is pretty straight forward. | ||
Caphe
Vietnam10817 Posts
On May 26 2013 16:39 caelym wrote: At the same time, All Star allowed regions to show off how good they are. Korea definitely did that, and so did China to a lesser extent (and NA to an even lesser extent). Actually, I think NA did really good this competition. They look like the team with proper prep, can work together really well. I was look down upon NA LOL teams alot before this allstar, but now I think they are good and can improve if they work on it. | ||
thefreed
United States222 Posts
On May 26 2013 16:45 Caphe wrote: First of all, Infrastructure consists of a large amount of sponsors comparable to regular sports. 1.We see Samsung, LG, Olympus, Panasonic, ST Telecom, CJ etc in Korea. Do you see the same calibre of sponsors anywhere in the world? In NA most sponsors are small business of world giants like they are in Korea. 2. Broadcast on TV, first country to do so and only a decade later the rest of the world realise that its viable for them too. Even in China, there is no gaming channel only internet stream at best. 3. Small leagues in many games, there are middle school competition, high school and university competition. As far as I know none other countries has this. 4. Important of coaching, even now, NA/EU LOL teams don't have coach while BW teams in Korea has coach like a decade ago 5. The acceptance of the public. Gaming culture playing an important part here I admit that, but gaming culture can only breed good to very good amatuers players. If you want to compete in the world stage, systematically training and marketing are required. China has a very large gaming population and very large numbers of PC Bangs too thus breed alot of very good amature players but when they turn pro, they can't compete with Korea. It's broadcast on tv but it's still like a paid channel or like you need to pay more then basic cable or something. Most peoplel watch from the internet. middle school competition and highschool and university? where did you hear this O_O. I mean a lot of people play LOL with friends and such, but I don't think there's these leagues u speak of. If so, then it's like some private thing... Then I think that kinda thing exists in a lot of other regions. 5. People in Korea are very divided when they talk about pc and online games. A lot of people are still negative about it while the other half isn't. I mean from just hearing things online don't expect Korea to be that way, but still it is true that there's a high e sport scene here because of pc cafes and etc. | ||
Azarkon
United States21060 Posts
On May 26 2013 16:32 Vlanitak wrote: not sure if playing devils advocate but: Dota 2, China and the Western scene is bigger in that than Korea. I cant think of a single Korean team (as a casual viewer) that has done well in Dota 2, Korea isnt the mecca for ALL esport. They are extremely good and have a really good infrastructure built around it, but they arent unbeatable. They don't play Dota 2. There's no way to judge a scene's ability in a game they don't have a large population of players for. But to play the devil's advocate myself, there is one genre where there are a lot of Korean players, but where they aren't the best country: FPS games. Instead, Sweden and other EU countries are the best in that game. I've yet to understand this myself, though I figure it does have to do with Kespa teams not being involved. | ||
overt
United States9006 Posts
On May 26 2013 16:46 ketchup wrote: Thank you for this information on the early days of LoL from other countries. I don't really know of any way for someone in NA to know this type of information. Slowly learning a Korean a bit to be able to read articles/get this information, but motivation is difficult for learning a language. At least the Korean alphabet is pretty straight forward. locodoco has videos on YouTube where he's talked about some of this kind of stuff in English like years ago. If you were #1 locodoco fanboy you'd already know this! MiG/Azubu/CJ, EDG, and other early Korean teams went through a lot of shit. But they were also a lot worse until Korea basically decided that LoL was going to be the spiritual successor to Brood War. It was in large part due to the sacrifices and ridiculous amount of work MiG, EDG, etc put into it that it took off. I don't mean to take anything away from the Koreans. Just like I'm not trying to take anything away from NBA players but if basketball was as popular in China as it is in America I'm pretty confident the Chinese would have the best basketball teams in the world. | ||
caelym
United States6421 Posts
On May 26 2013 16:41 UnKooL wrote: Yep, I watched Cloudtemplar yesterday talk about the hardships MIG/Frost faced at the early days of LoL in Korea. Cloud said they lived in a very small room where the computers they played on were right next to/on top of? where they slept and the Coach spent a lot of his own personal money to finance the team and Gunwoong's father helped them financially later on. He also said when they added blaze to the team the room they practiced in only had 5 computers so one team would play at the house and the other would have to go to PC bangs to practice and scrim and they would switch every other day or so. There is a lot of talk about infrastructure, but Frost didn't really benefit from Korean esports infrastructure at all when they first started, only when LoL started to catch on to mainstream gaming in Korea that infrastructure that was already in place like OGN and other sponsored pro teams helped to grow and foster amazing talent. So I don't really like it when people say that Korea is so good because it already has an esports infrastructure, yes it is a big part of it, but think of the pure passion and effort that a team like Frost/MIG put in to become who they are now. They faced a lot of hardships like many starting teams/organizations expanding different games like BW and SC2, and they don't benefit from the great "korean esports infastructure" until their passion for the game and their countless hours of practice at some point pays off and they gain recognition. Attitude and dedication is so important. NA and EU treat professional LoL too much as a paid hobby. The strive to be champions is lacking. | ||
Caphe
Vietnam10817 Posts
On May 26 2013 16:41 UnKooL wrote: Yep, I watched Cloudtemplar yesterday talk about the hardships MIG/Frost faced at the early days of LoL in Korea. Cloud said they lived in a very small room where the computers they played on were right next to/on top of? where they slept and the Coach spent a lot of his own personal money to finance the team and Gunwoong's father helped them financially later on. He also said when they added blaze to the team the room they practiced in only had 5 computers so one team would play at the house and the other would have to go to PC bangs to practice and scrim and they would switch every other day or so. There is a lot of talk about infrastructure, but Frost didn't really benefit from Korean esports infrastructure at all when they first started, only when LoL started to catch on to mainstream gaming in Korea that infrastructure that was already in place like OGN and other sponsored pro teams helped to grow and foster amazing talent. So I don't really like it when people say that Korea is so good because it already has an esports infrastructure, yes it is a big part of it, but think of the pure passion and effort that a team like Frost/MIG put in to become who they are now. They faced a lot of hardships like many starting teams/organizations expanding different games like BW and SC2, and they don't benefit from the great "korean esports infastructure" until their passion for the game and their countless hours of practice at some point pays off and they gain recognition. Actually if you follow BW and SC2, you will know the Korean teams house suck dick compare to NA one. Curse and TSM live in heaven compare to their Korean counterpart. There are alot of SC2 pro that went KR only to find out that they can not fit it because its the first time in their life they sleep on bunk bad and share the room with 3-4 other dudes. Infrastructure here doesn't need to mean actual buildings or things like that. Its the structure that teams need to practice on schedule, need a coaches and a division within the team(team A team B). You can see this clearly in both BW, SC2 and LOL in Korea. There are practice partners , B teamers in both SC:BW and SC2. So from the get go of LOL in Korea, they establish 2 teams within the same team. Korea is the first and still the only one to do it. Do you see any serious Korea LOL team that don't have 2 teams? When do the rest of the world catchup on this? Because they have 10 people living in a small apartment doesn't mean they have no infrastructure, its just the Asian culture thing, people in Korea and Japan used live in small spaces while Westerners always want privacy and space in order to function. | ||
thefreed
United States222 Posts
On May 26 2013 16:50 Azarkon wrote: They don't play Dota 2. There's no way to judge a scene's ability in a game they don't have a large population of players for. But to play the devil's advocate myself, there is one genre where there are a lot of Korean players, but where they aren't the best country: FPS games. Instead, Sweden and other EU countries are the best in that game. I've yet to understand this myself, though I figure it does have to do with Kespa teams not being involved. Korea and Western countries play different kind of FPS games. I mean there's like only 1-5% of the population who play consoles here, so console fps games adpated to pc doesn't get much recognition in KOrea. They're just oblivious to it. But people here play Sudden attack or world of tanks now a days. Each country's FPS of choice is so different from country to country that you can't really compare the scenes. | ||
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