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I would like to call out L, nemY, and Bloodycobbler for voting for d3_crescentia.
Not being allowed to abstain in votes is a huge plus for town members as votes reveal information that can be used to evaluate a player later in the game.
Yet the three of you subvert that by essentially abstaining by voting for someone who has basically not participated in the game so far. Explain yourselves - why can you not commit to helping the town by leaving a paper trail of your opinion?
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On March 13 2010 16:58 Fishball wrote: Uh, why the hell would you lynch JeeJee.
I'm wondering this as well. Although any discussion of this choice now will be tinged by the fact he was town, I would still like to hear your thought process that led to this decision. What are the things you considered scummy (behind his last minute voting stuff?)
And also, what are your cases against your other possible lynch candidates Malongo and Versatile? Well, since it's day 1, probably not real cases, but what led you to consider them relatively more scummy than everyone else?
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On March 13 2010 17:09 Zona wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2010 16:58 Fishball wrote: Uh, why the hell would you lynch JeeJee.
I'm wondering this as well. Although any discussion of this choice now will be tinged by the fact he was town, I would still like to hear your thought process that led to this decision. What are the things you considered scummy ( besides his last minute voting stuff?) And also, what are your cases against your other possible lynch candidates Malongo and Versatile? Well, since it's day 1, probably not real cases, but what led you to consider them relatively more scummy than everyone else? Fixed typo. Yay post-WL sleepy posting.
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Damn there's a lot to catch up on. I'm going to respond to bits and pieces as I read them, so prepare for quite a few posts.
On March 16 2010 04:00 Incognito wrote: Anyway, at the rate that this is going, I am considering pardoning Abenson if he wins this lynch. Not because I am convinced of his innocence, but because I think you guys are just trying to bandwagon him to death. Do not pardon anyone. (I'm still catching up on posts and haven't decided whether or not he feels innocent.) Even if he is innocent and dies, we need that information as town. If you pardon, we have no idea whether or not he is innocent, and we cannot use that information to evaluate how people were discussing him. Even a town member being lynched provides more information than we had before, and we need this information.
To be honest I think the existence of a pardoner is not helpful to the town because pardoning itself is rarely beneficial, and is downright dangerous in the hands of a mafia pardoner late game, but that's a discussion for elsewhere, I suppose.
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On March 15 2010 10:10 BloodyC0bbler wrote: As I have stated earlier in this thread, the DT's job is to build the list of confirmed townies + find red. The strategy for a CLAIMED, PROTECTED DT is different from the strategy for an UNCLAIMED, UNPROTECTED DT.
An unclaimed, unprotected DT has the trouble of convincing the town if he or she finds red, that's why finding greens/blues and speaking with them privately is first priority.
Instead, you are a protected, claimed DT - YOUR PRIORITY IS TO FIND RED right now, NOT blue/green. First of all, the town has no reason to trust you. Perhaps you are a mafia member and the real DT is afraid to claim in fear of being killed. But the biggest difference is that the town should vote along with you if you say you found red, at least the first time you say it. You do not have the normal trouble of an unclaimed DT where it's difficult to convince the town to vote with you, and you do not have the normal fear of an unprotected DT where if they claim they could be killed the next night. If you point out a red and the town lynches them, and it turns out to be red, THEN you will get a massive boost to credibility (and perhaps then can start being a trusted coordinator, although I still think you should focus on finding red). If you point out a red and the town lynches them, and they aren't red...well the town should know what to do.
It's possible that you are a mafia member sacrificing a fellow member when you point out a red and it turns out to be red, but that case is still good for the town, as losing a mafia member that early really helps our probabilities.
I want you, BC, to focus on finding red, not blue/green, with your DT checks. In fact, I will be VERY suspicious if by around Day 4/5 you still have not located any reds with your DT check as the probabilities of randomly finding at least ONE red after several checks is high. (Example: in the night 1-3 checks assuming that the town is not successful in lynching, the probability of finding at least mafia through the three entirely random checks is 57%, and BC should be greatly increasing this chance by using his reading of the thread.)
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Oh, it's possible that BC points out a red and it turns out to be green due to bus driving. But the chance if this is very unlikely if BC does not announce who he is checking ahead of time to anyone. Since mafia is a game of probabilities, DO NOT ACCEPT THIS EXCUSE IF IT OCCURS. Also, this possibility is NO EXCUSE NOT TO FOLLOW THE PLAN I HAVE PROPOSED. (Of course, if anyone proposes a BETTER plan with strong reasoning behind it, or if anyone proposes a major FLAW with my plan, then I would be happy if BC did not listen to me in this case.)
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To further elucidate on how central BC has become to the town's chances of success as a claimed elected DT, if BC is a legit DT and the town loses, he will be the LVP, no question. A claimed, protected DT is so powerful in the current game format.
If BC is a mafia member, then it is essential we figure this out as soon as possible.
(If BC is green or a non-DT...I hate you for lying as a town member. Lying as a town member is rarely beneficial.)
P.S. Those players who play erratically as town to help their chances when they play another game as mafia - I also hate you. You reduce your and the town's chances for winning when you are town only to help your chances to win another game as mafia. That's a sign of weakness, not skill, in the game of mafia.
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L you are definitely not being helpful to the town. Unless you're trying to set up an elaborate trap of the sorts that usually don't succeed, your lack of clarity is not helping the town.
The town benefits from clarity - when players (both mafia and town) post their opinions and thoughts in a solid, clear manner. Their accusations and plans can later be examined to see if they were knowingly trying to protect mafia or advance the mafia's goals. Your posting is not clear and you are constantly denying that you held various opinions, as players try to interpret your posts. And you do not clearly stating what your actual positions are in return (beyond "lynch BM").
Furthermore, your vendetta against BM doesn't seem useful. You have indeed posted a few in-game reasons in favor for his lynch for it, but beyond your "case" have expressed your desire to lynch him out of animosity or reasons beyond how BM has performed in this game. Why this is unhelpful is that if BM is lynched and he turns out green, I suspect you will wash your hands of your position by falling back on "I didn't like how he played, even if he was townie" or something along those lines.
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On March 14 2010 04:38 nemY wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2010 15:33 Zona wrote: I would like to call out L, nemY, and Bloodycobbler for voting for d3_crescentia.
Not being allowed to abstain in votes is a huge plus for town members as votes reveal information that can be used to evaluate a player later in the game.
Yet the three of you subvert that by essentially abstaining by voting for someone who has basically not participated in the game so far. Explain yourselves - why can you not commit to helping the town by leaving a paper trail of your opinion? Obviously there's only two logical reasons for voting for d3_crescentia 1.) L, myself and BC are all mafia and were trying to make a late game push for our other mafia buddy, d3_crescentia. 2.) We're the three best friends that anyone could have... While L and BC's responses are reasonable, this response is not. You have responded with sarcasm and have provided no reason why you feel you should not leave a paper trail of voting for the rest of the players to examine later on. If you are a town member and unsure about who to vote for, still put a vote on your best guess. Later on your vote can be examined to see if you were working with mafia or had information that town members usually do not.
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On March 12 2010 07:37 Incognito wrote: Reasons why I think L is town: He wants to be rolechecked. He wants to kill green officeholders. Which means he's either blue or GF. If he's GF, it will be hard to fake a blue role. I don't think a mafia would forcefully put themselves on the spot so willingly.
Any town member wants to be rolechecked, so they can be trusted. Any person claiming to be town will claim to want to be rolechecked to go along with this. It's not a major risk for a mafia member to ask to be rolechecked because the DTs still decide on their own from among many players who to check. And he put himself in the spot already by running for elections, so he needs to follow through.
On March 12 2010 07:37 Incognito wrote: Reasons why I think BC is town: He says that he claimed to three people. Claiming DT to three people is a pretty bad idea if you're mafia. You'd preferably keep it to one so you can kill off that member if you decide you are being found out. Now we don't have proof about the other two people he told, but I don't know if he'd make that bad of a lie.
I like this part. However like you said we don't have proof that he actually claimed to three people. I want BC to reveal which three people he claimed to, and those people to confirm that he claimed AFTER BC has named his list. Revealing this information (as far as I can see) has no particular benefits to the mafia as BC is not revealing any blue roles, nor is he revealing if he has any information about these three people. He, and the three, are just simply confirming that the talked to each other, proving that his statement was true.
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On March 16 2010 09:15 Versatile wrote: my top suspect is BC, and that's who i think the town should lynch.
my reasoning being, he's playing horribly as not only a vet, but a vet who is also our mayor. no vet runs for mayor and is this inactive and this unhelpful if they're unless they've got some serious IRL things going on, and BC has said nothing of the sort yet.
in my book, being a retarded player is enough to get you lynched in most cases. being a retarded mayor is enough to get you lynched each and every time.
While I agree with you in part, you forgot to mention that he claimed DT: lynching a claimed DT this early in the game is a really bad idea, and I do not like that you suggested it.
On March 16 2010 09:15 Versatile wrote: i also think that are seriously weak cases for every one of the people up for lynching this round. i wouldn't vote to lynch any of them, as i'm sure they're going to pop up green. i would rather not have a lynch than kill a townie. I do agree the cases right now are pretty weak, but this is day 2. But it's almost always better to have a lynch even if we lynch wrong, because lynching gains information with which the town can use to evaluate how people have accused and voted in the past. I also don't like when people say "I'm afraid we'll lynch a townie" because it's something mafia might say, as they know before the lynch whether or not it's a good one for the town. Of course newbie town members will often be unhappy/worry about lynching town members, but apparently you're a respected player here so perhaps more should be expected of you?
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On March 13 2010 11:58 L wrote: Bill Murray, Jee Jee, Madnessman. I honestly hope BC decided to kill one of you. Hi, do you still feel the same way about madnessman?
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On March 14 2010 07:30 L wrote: I've been the only person to offer a concrete proof of my alignment via either blue abilities or volunteering to be killed. First, volunteering to be killed is a gambit that can be played by both town and mafia members. And I must have missed where you used your blue abilities to prove your alignment.
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On March 14 2010 13:51 madnessman wrote: PS. Isn't it equally likely that people trying to act nondescriptly and voting early on could be mafia too? As we saw in the last game, NONE of the swing voters for redtooth were mafia. Yes, there's enough people who haven't posted any concrete thoughts or accusations that there's likely at least a few mafia among them. Without clues there's no easy way of them being found out. The real benefit to these players are town members who are also inactive, allowing such mafia to hide among them. If you are town and inactive, you are helping inactive mafia hide among you. Post your opinions, no matter how unsure of them you are, so at the very least the mafia among you cannot run unchecked.
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On March 14 2010 16:40 L wrote: If mafia has a role they want dead right now, its the medic and bus driver. Once one of those are dead, they can start chopping away at the BG block and kill our DT. After the DT/medic die, the mafia 'clock' stops ticking, because the amount of confirmed townies stops growing and the chance that goons get outed starts going up. Given the low kp/round, the game is likely to go on for a while, which means that the effects of the medic, driver and DT are incredibly amplified. Our bus driver isn't strong, since he or she only has two uses, but I agree our medic is a big target. However, since you are always saying that we don't interpret your posts correctly, let me ask you this: by saying "they can start chopping away at the BG block and kill our DT" you mean that you believe BC is in fact a DT?
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Yeah, just did. I'm not voting for Malongo as I hope he doesn't show up and dies as well, then we'll get information regarding two people. I wish I had come online a bit earlier so I could have made my cases earlier rather than just voting between the people who already have a lot of votes.
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On March 15 2010 12:48 Incognito wrote: I'm disappointed and frustrated that every time I make a post in thread, I am ignored. Completely. Its not the mafia's fault, its the townies faults. You know, I agree with this. If someone makes a post with a strong accusation or a good plan, I think others should support it. Otherwise it risks being ignored as no one discussed it.
On March 15 2010 12:48 Incognito wrote: A bunch of you have been responding to my pms thinking that I am just trying to fish for mafia. While that is a component of pms, it is not the only component. So stop being defensive about pms and thinking that I am accusing you. Answer the questions, and hopefully we can have a good discussion in private. I also agree with this. You can talk with others in private without being a entirely sure they're town. It's useful to point out suspicious things about other players with them and see how they respond, and see if they agree or can point out things you haven't noticed. However, for the record, Incognito hasn't PM'd me yet, either, other than a response to a question I had for him much earlier in the game.
On March 15 2010 12:48 Incognito wrote: As has been proven in the past, inactivity allows the mafia to hide. But how do the mafia know if its safe to hide? By observing the fact that other townies are also being inactive. A hundred times this! Everyone - you signed up to play the game, and win. If you are a town member, you help us win by posting. Again, even if you aren't sure, still post what's on your mind. Make some accusations and see how people respond. If you worry about making wrong accusations and being seen as mafia? Well your inactivity is WORSE, and allows other mafia to hide. The object of the game isn't necessarily to survive yourself, but to help your side win. So even if you become a target for the mafia by participating, if you help find them, even just by being active and not letting them hide among you, you're increasing your chances to win.
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On March 16 2010 09:39 Versatile wrote: part 1: how do you feel about lynch a supposed DT mayor who has not been active? seriously, think about it. if you were DT and mayor, what would you be doing? he is not being active. he is not leading. he isn't doing anything DT mayor would do, at least not from what i've seen in thread. you're talking about expecting more from me, how about expecting more from the head of the town? I don't think the main power of the DT is to be active in the thread, but yes, I do want our elected officials to be active. I will definitely support lynching him if he does not produce a red by day 4. Actually I'm still working through my thoughts but there may be an advantage to revealing some partial information even if his checks only hit town-aligned players.
On March 16 2010 09:39 Versatile wrote: part 2: true we learn information, and that's useful, but imo, it's pretty clear we're not lynching a mafia member. there hasn't been any push to save anyone or change up votes. there hasn't been anything to even hint that the mafia is worried about losing a member, unless incog follows through on the pardon, which he should NOT. the town's decision should go through, no matter how much anyone may disagree with it. in any case, there will be a lynch and we'll get this information you want.
I do see your point here how this lynch might not provide as much information as usual since they're been no jockeying between candidates (other than the madnessness). Next day everyone (including me) needs to really start earlier in discussing possible lynch candidates.
Also, your thoughts on this make me really think about the pardoner late game. A mafia pardoner late game can simply make his fellow mafia members immune to lynch twice while the mafia whittle down the town at night. I think pardoning is a bad idea...but is allowing the pardon to be held back even more dangerous?
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On March 15 2010 09:38 Foolishness wrote: There is a point that needs to be addressed to the town. L claims he has a circle of 3(?) blues, BC said he claimed to people and has hinted he knows blues, Incog claims he knows a bunch of blues as well. There are more blues going around than there are probably in the game. If you all were really blue, why haven't you coordinated together? If all of you were legit, I'd expect this game to be near over for the mafia because you probably know over half the town is innocent. Why isn't this happening? Why are none of you telling us who to lynch (exception of L here). Somebody's full of shit with you three. At least one of you is lying about the information you know. Based on what you three have individually said, this game should be nearly over. Why are we still playing and why are we guessing on who to lynch today? I agree with this part 100%. It's highly likely at least one of the L, BC, or Incognito isn't speaking the truth.
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On March 16 2010 10:09 l10f wrote: I'm predicting two greens... What's the use of this post?
Also, it seems you're here at the deadline: You're one of the people who needs to post more thoughts, even if you're not really sure about things. If you're not mafia you're doing a good job of helping them hide by being inactive like some of them surely also are.
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