On May 09 2011 02:15 chaoser wrote:
Ace, you not playing?
Ace, you not playing?
30 ppl games I rarely join
Forum Index > TL Mafia |
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On May 09 2011 02:15 chaoser wrote: Ace, you not playing? 30 ppl games I rarely join | ||
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/in | ||
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On May 14 2011 10:06 GMarshal wrote: Show nested quote + On May 14 2011 10:05 Ace wrote: here we go again. Assigning roles before people pick. Disaster incoming. Where exactly does this cause "disaster" to me it looks like it causes accountability for anti-town roles and only for anti-town roles. Can you explain why its a bad idea? I'd really love to hear your input on this. accountability? lol did you read the last 3 PYP games? | ||
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On May 14 2011 10:17 GMarshal wrote: Show nested quote + On May 14 2011 10:12 Ace wrote: On May 14 2011 10:06 GMarshal wrote: On May 14 2011 10:05 Ace wrote: here we go again. Assigning roles before people pick. Disaster incoming. Where exactly does this cause "disaster" to me it looks like it causes accountability for anti-town roles and only for anti-town roles. Can you explain why its a bad idea? I'd really love to hear your input on this. accountability? lol did you read the last 3 PYP games? Yes, yes I did, I fail to see your point, if we know who has the PoD and we go into a double night then we vigi shoot him right off the bat, or lynch him if that isn't an option... Same with the other roles, assuming the plan is actually followed where is the flaw? And if its not followed what do you propose? Everyone picks whatever they want? I feel like thats going to end with the mafia holding enough powerful roles to roll over us by denying lynches/converting people. 1.) Can't know if your "assigned" roles went to the right person. 2.) Won't know if the role went to town or mafia For the chance of tying a few people to roles and not alignment you'll be giving Scum information on where the roles went. Lets not forget that unlike any other PYP game the amount of killing roles in this game are pretty high. As for the bolded - yes. Let people pick what they want. The mafia is going to get roles they think benefit them whether you know it or not. Let the town get the information roles and then we go from there. | ||
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On May 14 2011 10:36 GMarshal wrote: Show nested quote + On May 14 2011 10:25 Ace wrote: On May 14 2011 10:17 GMarshal wrote: On May 14 2011 10:12 Ace wrote: On May 14 2011 10:06 GMarshal wrote: On May 14 2011 10:05 Ace wrote: here we go again. Assigning roles before people pick. Disaster incoming. Where exactly does this cause "disaster" to me it looks like it causes accountability for anti-town roles and only for anti-town roles. Can you explain why its a bad idea? I'd really love to hear your input on this. accountability? lol did you read the last 3 PYP games? Yes, yes I did, I fail to see your point, if we know who has the PoD and we go into a double night then we vigi shoot him right off the bat, or lynch him if that isn't an option... Same with the other roles, assuming the plan is actually followed where is the flaw? And if its not followed what do you propose? Everyone picks whatever they want? I feel like thats going to end with the mafia holding enough powerful roles to roll over us by denying lynches/converting people. 1.) Can't know if your "assigned" roles went to the right person. 2.) Won't know if the role went to town or mafia For the chance of tying a few people to roles and not alignment you'll be giving Scum information on where the roles went. Lets not forget that unlike any other PYP game the amount of killing roles in this game are pretty high. 1.) *if* we agree to follow the plan then we will, because if they are town they will pick them, in the interest of benefiting the town, and if they are scum they don't want to be caught at a lie. And we'll be able to tell if the power was picked earlier since the person picking it will get vanilla. However I agree that this might be a weakness of the plan, is there any way to remedy it? 2.) It wont matter, if they are town they will never use the role, if they are mafia we will know if it is used, and will be able to kill them for it, thats the reason for assigning the activated anti-town roles to these players, rather than passive anti-town roles, its *really* easy to tell if they've been used. On these people being killed by the mafia, then those anti-town roles are out of the game, rather than power roles, I dont see the issue with them being focused down. I can't say I'm comfortable with letting townies pick whatever they want, I feel like thats going to lead to the mafia snagging powerful roles and the town overlapping too much in the role selection. Still this plan cannot work if the people in those positions don't agree to it, so we should be in agreement before the draft order comes out. I fell asleep reading this | ||
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I'm not doing any work though. I feel like relaxing this game. | ||
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Yup, I'm going to sleep. | ||
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Imo the top spots should hog as many as the detective roles as possible, and let the middle pickers take prot roles. Mafia having extra KP isn't that scary if there are many prot + known investigation roles to stop them. In essence everyone could literally role claim and just go down the line forming investigations and without a brutal amount of KP Scum would be powerless to stop it. | ||
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I figured it was symbolic. | ||
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On May 16 2011 14:29 OriginalName wrote: Ok now that 48 hours of wifom is over I have a question. Is going through pregame really worth the amount of effort over results or should we play this like a normal game? Im going to answer this by saying: sort of. The biggest reason behind this are plans proposed by Radfield and Batman both are basically the same thing. Pro-town plans to attempt to control roles. When has this ever worked in PYP? Never, invariably someone always effs it up. So why bother with wifom, the only real analysis done on actual people was done by Caller, so really I think our best move is to play the game like a really blue heavy normal game. Im liable to think somebody who suggested a no-pick list is scum just because it looks towny on the outside, control is a scum style so why let them get away with it. Well we do play it like a "normal" game until the first role claim comes out Once that comes out and depending on the position the player was in we debate whether it's a falseclaim or not, or even if the person is worth lynching. With so many information roles I'm sure things are going to be kicking off very soon. | ||
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On May 15 2011 17:40 Barundar wrote: updated list: 1. Flamewheel 2. Scamp [7][11] 3. Caller [10][4] 4. Barundar [13][1] 5. Radfield 6. GMarshal [17][2] 7. Deconduo 8. Foolishness [1][x] 9. bumatlarge [1][18] 10. Kavdragon [2][1] 11. Chaoser [2][2] 12. Fishball [5][3] 13. KillerSOS [5][11] 14. Eiii [6][7] 15. Infinitestory [6][10] 16. Dreamflower [4][1] 17. Mr.Wiggles [4][x] 18. Original Name[4][6] 19. tnkted [4][12] 20. Chezinu 21. Ace [9][11] 22. Kurumi [9][x] 23. Incognito[9][x] 24. Node [9][1] 25. kitaman27 [9][1] Anyone else that didn't claim numbers should soon. I'm surprised no one has made a big deal about number clashing yet like in PYP 1. With so many unique numbers at the top and a bunch of clashes from 16 on down I think focusing our investigations into the clashing sets is a good start. We somewhat have an idea of what should be in the top slots so if any bad actions that were already discussed happen we know where to look. | ||
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On May 16 2011 15:37 Mr. Wiggles wrote: Show nested quote + On May 16 2011 15:28 Ace wrote: On May 16 2011 14:29 OriginalName wrote: Ok now that 48 hours of wifom is over I have a question. Is going through pregame really worth the amount of effort over results or should we play this like a normal game? Im going to answer this by saying: sort of. The biggest reason behind this are plans proposed by Radfield and Batman both are basically the same thing. Pro-town plans to attempt to control roles. When has this ever worked in PYP? Never, invariably someone always effs it up. So why bother with wifom, the only real analysis done on actual people was done by Caller, so really I think our best move is to play the game like a really blue heavy normal game. Im liable to think somebody who suggested a no-pick list is scum just because it looks towny on the outside, control is a scum style so why let them get away with it. Well we do play it like a "normal" game until the first role claim comes out Once that comes out and depending on the position the player was in we debate whether it's a falseclaim or not, or even if the person is worth lynching. With so many information roles I'm sure things are going to be kicking off very soon. Day 2 will be interesting then. I'm going to say, that we shouldn't drop everything that was discussed before the day started, and that in fact, some people are already making use of it. Incognito expressed a suspicion in Node and then retracted it immediately. Caller later stated that he believes Node is mafia. From what's happened pre-game until role PMs, Incog now suspects GM enough to call for a hit on him. So, whether these suspicions are able to be substantiated or not aside, we still have information, if solely in the fact that these people were brought up as suspicious, and that Incog and Caller were so quick to start pointing out who they believe are scum. So, I'm going to say we shouldn't ignore what happened before Role Pms went out, because there is definitely information there. I'm also interested in hearing from Node again, because he was mentioned twice, and has since disappeared, only making two, very small posts. Well whether we hear from Node or not doesn't mean anything just because his name was mentioned twice. Incognito has been pushing suspicions around already. Either he has more information than we do or he is smarter than the rest of us (read: me). Needless to say I think he's just bullshitting around so far. | ||
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Either way it wouldn't matter because nothing about number picks could tell you about alignment yet. I don't think FW noticed anything and instead was just asking what the second number pick is like all of us have been. | ||
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On May 17 2011 04:36 Foolishness wrote: Are we really going to try to base a plan around rigging the votes and getting a votecheck? What happened to "let's treat this as a normal game until someone claims"? going this route is going to force a claim | ||
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On May 17 2011 05:04 Kavdragon wrote: QUOTE]On May 17 2011 04:48 Foolishness wrote: No plans for vote rigging or checking. Let's scum hunt. This. On May 17 2011 02:54 Ace wrote: I think right now it's best to just get a few main suspects, and then attempt to split all of our votes between them. Scummiest gets the lynch, vote checking DT gets a few lists. How is this different than what we would do anyways? Would you mind contributing? You wanted to sleep when the town was making plans, and that bugs me. You are the most skilled player as mafia in this game, and that means that you, better than anyone else can figure out what the mafia is most likely to do. I was really hoping that you would put some of that skill forward and help with plans. At any rate, the day is started and it's time to wake up.[/QUOTE] are you going to pay me to do your work for you? On May 17 2011 04:41 Mr. Wiggles wrote: Show nested quote + On May 17 2011 04:36 Foolishness wrote: Are we really going to try to base a plan around rigging the votes and getting a votecheck? What happened to "let's treat this as a normal game until someone claims"? I would hope not. I say play this out normally, but pay attention to people who are randomly throwing single votes out and refuse to vote with any group. If that continues past one day, I'd say it's someone trying to avoid vote check. Actually Scum would want to vote with a group. If they don't they risk the possible chance of a group of confirmed townies by the DT. It's better for them and for the Town that people vote together. People voting alone are probably better off left to be checked by another investigation role. On May 17 2011 05:28 Radfield wrote: If I was mafia, I would want to collide my numbers with at least one, possibly two other mafia players. First, for whatever reason town players think this is unlikely. Second, there is very little downside for the mafia, they avoid the top of the list(where the most attention is focused) and still get whatever roles they want, as we have a huge no-pick list as town. Any non-super-vet near the bottom of the list will not likely be role-checked, so they safely have a good pro-mafia role, and some cover by clashing with each other. I'm not saying that the mafia definitely clashed, but simply that there are decent reasons for a couple mafia players to do so. Also the fact that ~5 players picked [4] and ~5 players picked [9] makes it slightly more likely in my mind that mafia clashed with themselves on purpose. blah blah blah wifom blah wifom. Arggg. Even taking out the Wifom argument: With so many good roles the Mafia probably don't care if they clashed. In the other PYP games with the town focusing on 3 or so "too good to be true roles" (silly I know) number clashing was a decent idea in separating Town from Scum. In this game with so many good roles it probably doesn't matter as much. On May 17 2011 05:32 Kavdragon wrote: If you're having a hard time coming up with someone that is scummy, try thinking up possible number combinations that the mafia used, and pick someone from that list. For instance, I think that they would play to get a top spot, so I expected them to go for something like 2,3,4,5. So I picked the people who stood out from those who chose those numbers and compiled a little scum team. Chaoser[2][2] Flamewheel[3][3] Wiggles[4][2] KillerSOS[5][11] Of those Wiggles seems the scummiest, so I'll look into him first. The hell is this shit? | ||
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Look at 5 posts by said person with "they have to be scum goggles" and find things that aren't there. I'm more inclined to start voting off all the finger pointers. This bullshit "look I've found some posts that makes this person looks scummy because I believe this is the true intent behind them" is sick. It sucked in all the other mafia games you people played in and it's going to suck now. So I'm going to: 1.) Push for some people to get lynched 2.) Kill one of you myself tonight Oh wait? What's that? Your damn right. Ace has a gun. Balls. | ||
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Ok guess I'll just go back to sleep again. This time I'll tuck my gun under my pillow. | ||
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On May 17 2011 10:44 chaoser wrote: Show nested quote + On May 17 2011 10:40 Ace wrote: so besides deconduo wanting to die, no one else has anything to say about Incognito telling flamewheel to nuke people along with a host of accusations already on Day 1? Ok guess I'll just go back to sleep again. This time I'll tuck my gun under my pillow. I noticed it too but before that I wanted to ask. Before you said you saw something that made you unvote incognito. But then you voted him again. Want to share what it was or is it a need to know basis? Kavdragon's posts. Seemed like more bs to me so I was deciding on which one of them I wanted to spend my next nap dreaming about. Then a host of other people started pointing fingers so I decided to go back to the #1 finger pointer himself. | ||
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lol wow I really wonder sometimes. | ||
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On May 17 2011 12:29 Kavdragon wrote: Show nested quote + On May 17 2011 10:47 Ace wrote: On May 17 2011 10:44 chaoser wrote: On May 17 2011 10:40 Ace wrote: so besides deconduo wanting to die, no one else has anything to say about Incognito telling flamewheel to nuke people along with a host of accusations already on Day 1? Ok guess I'll just go back to sleep again. This time I'll tuck my gun under my pillow. I noticed it too but before that I wanted to ask. Before you said you saw something that made you unvote incognito. But then you voted him again. Want to share what it was or is it a need to know basis? Kavdragon's posts. Seemed like more bs to me so I was deciding on which one of them I wanted to spend my next nap dreaming about. Then a host of other people started pointing fingers so I decided to go back to the #1 finger pointer himself. Um...Duh? As I've said before, it's day one, and reads are pretty sketchy because of the lack of information. I'll say it again: The best way to get information is to pressure people and look at the response. Any pushes at this point are obviously going to be pressure, not actual attempts to get someone lynched. (Well. Depending on the response...) Look at my posting: that's pretty much all I've done, from my very first post (pressuring Node) to now, pressuring caller and Wiggles. I have a scum read on you too, but I don't trust myself to make anything close to an accurate read on you (especially since I automatically associate you with scum) so I'm leaving you alone. In general i think that only mafia have something to fear from people applying pressure, as townies will be judged by their reactions. Incog telling pointing fingers and telling FW to nuke is exactly the sort of thing that generates discussion and information on people. For instance, if me and incog start pressuring a townie (esspecially if there's not a much of a reason to) and someone else jumps on, then you've just got your self someone who's looking awfully scummy. This tactic has been used by skilled players to great effect so don't tell me it doesn't work. Also, what you said about putting on scum goggles is a very real danger, but it's something that I've been accepting full knowing because again, it's not about making a real case, it's about pressure. If that requires me to purposefully misinterpret posts, then I'll do it. Of course now that you've made me say this my pressure will be less effective... Actually it is about a real case. Whether you're accusing a Town or Scum player anyone with a modicum of sense is going to realize you're just tunneling. Pressure is when you can get someone to contradict their actions or screw up answering a question. 3 people constantly pointing out stuff that they want to see in your posts but isn't there isn't pressure. Really, I highly doubt anyone would get scared and think that will send them to the gallows. All you're doing is throwing more suspicion around on everyone within your vicinity and hoping for a lucky hit. Big difference between "generating discussion" and "lets see where this dart lands". You're playing darts, I'm playing Connect Four. | ||
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You know who likes to do that? Scum. Under the basis of "scumhunting" by pointing fingers everywhere and hoping a band wagon forms. Checkmate. | ||
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On May 17 2011 19:42 Radfield wrote: OK, sure Barundar is an excellent lynch target, but I'd much rather lynch further down the list today, and we have plenty of excellent targets lower town. An alignment check on him tonight should do the trick anyways. Kavdragon is putting in lots of effort, and making mistakes. If anything this looks pro-town, not anti-town. Incongito is too great a town asset to lynch off his Day 1 behavior, especially since he claims he's been out of town. (By the way, I appreciate that you ignored all my posts and then called me an invisible poster ) Show nested quote + On May 17 2011 15:07 Eiii wrote: On May 17 2011 12:53 infinitestory wrote: Oh, speaking of which, I'd actually like to apply some pressure myself. + Show Spoiler + On May 17 2011 10:31 Eiii wrote: Oh man, decon just made himself the perfect placeholder vote candidate. Or maybe even a good lynch candidate! :D You haven't been posting much, and you suddenly appear to simply bandwagon deconduo. Generally, placeholder votes are put on yourself, by the way; right now, it looks like you're just voting without caring who you're voting for. The lynch is important. It's a reliable way to weed out mafia, given that people vote intelligently. What is your reason for voting deconduo? Do you believe he is mafia? (If not, who are you watching?) Do I think decon is mafia? Probably not, after pulling a post like that. Do I think that there's a decent chance we're going to lynch mafia today if we ignore decon? Nope. Do I think that lynching someone who's either VI or a townie with apparently no role who's lost interest in the game and probably won't contribute much is better than tunneling in on one or two 'suspicious' posts from an active player or one who looks lurk-y now for whatever reason but could hold a helpful role or perk up and contribute more in the next few days? Definitely. Look, I don't ever have much confidence in day 1 lynches. Like ace has said, it just seems like sifting through peoples' posts and emphasizing possible reasons that they *could* be scum. I don't see anything that makes me especially confident that we're on the right track today and I'm pretty clueless so far as well. At best decon is VI and we take him out of the game early and avoid lynching someone green tonight. At best-best mafia is retarded, and decon is a red zombie or something. At worst decon is for some crazy reason lying and actually holds the most useful role in the world but decided to tell us to kill him just for fun. Probably decon actually did have a specific set of roles he wanted to play and he wasn't able to pick any up, so he's not that interested in playing the game. In terms of people I think are scummy, I think caller and chez have been posting pretty dumb things, but that's about all I've got I think you're wrong here Eiii, lynching easy targets(like non-contributing or inactive players) only helps the mafia by giving them an easy out. We have an absolute ton of info so far, and a decent chance of killing scum today, better in my mind than any other normal game, since we basically have a 96 hour Day 1. Easy targets who give us nothing at this point: Deconduo, KillerSOS, Fishball(hello? FIshball? Are you there? Are you playing?) OriginalName: Tentative, Spammy, Jokey, One Liners.... even has a standard medium length contributy post which says almost nothing. Unfortunately he has been called out by several other scummy players, so he could just be an easy target. Mr Wiggles: Did a small amount of leg-work looking at roles, Medium sized posts with minimal info, recapping, content to continue discussing plans and roles. Best of all, he makes a very long-winded post after getting called out, which is full of various themes. A good target tknted: So far I'm undecided. Contributed a few ideas, and a bit of his own opinions which is good. Yet to weigh in on the lynch. Please post more. Node: Decent target. Talks about the mafia over and over, what they would do, why they would do, how they would do. Then proceeds to spam it up, direct suspicion at chezinu(always a safe play). He also semi-defends Kurumi, which is good, since kurumi is an easy target to pick on from the looks of things. There is also one other player on my list, who I think is the most likely to be scum and our best target. I would rather not pressure him/her right now though, because I want to see what they do on their own. In the absence of talking about my last target, I think the best lynch for the moment is Mr. Wiggles. Anyone agree or disagree? I've got problems with all of those bolded claims. 1.) Doesn't matter where we lynch right now. We have no idea about where Mafia got their spots, and if Barundar is indeed the scummiest person then he gets the lynch. No tradeoffs. Thing is he isn't scummy at all. All he did was ask for people to stop throwing out scum accusations every other post - and I agree. It will be too easy to just get a random person lynched with this much division. 2.) Effort does not equal pro-town behavior. If you make mistakes, especially blatant ones like mass accusations or using terrible arguments under the guise of generating discussion then you aren't much different than Scum trying to act like they are getting things done. If he has played in games before then this should be clear by now that doing this is not good for town. 3.) No one is too good to not lynch in this game. More so than Kavdragon, Incognito threw around accusations and even worse reasons. The vote for Killsos (omg kill sauce?!). @flamewheel: Being silly is no excuse for getting a free pass. Either way we've got more than enough "contributions" from enough people already. Asking any more people to contribute for now will just serve as clutter because honestly - nothing new is coming from anyone today. It's time we consolidate our votes on a few suspects, get the lynch off, and get the DT to check the list. Yo guys are wasting time with this senseless finger pointing. Incognito is the scummiest person so far. I like how he even told everyone to "go back and read the thread", while not even pointing out what in the thread is so important it requires a re-read. Pretty much just giving orders and no follow up in an effort to look active. Kavdragon is scummy too, but since some people like bumatlarge want to play daddy day care guess he can't be lynched yet. 'tis ok, I've got my gun though. | ||
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Wouldn't it be silly for me to say that now? But thats just more of you digging a hole for yourself. Keep talking. It's the last day you'll have the chance to. | ||
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Who else have I pestered? Show me my posts where I haven't contributed while ignoring all the discussion I've generated. You say I haven't been helping to get any information? Show me what you've gathered then. And don't give me some bullshit "this guy is scum because I can see through his posts" bs. That post Caller made against you was a decent example of how to break down what's going on. Notice he didn't come back 5 minutes later with another accusation? So show and prove hombre. You won't have the chance to post on Day 2. | ||
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On May 18 2011 09:15 flamewheel wrote: Ah, TL Mafia games sure do ramp up in the last few hours of the day. I'll be commenting after dinner. Just a quick question though... Hey Ace, if Kavdragon is lynched who are you going to shoot instead? Let's make sure not to overlap now, eh? anyone that voted for Barundar. This "lets lynch Barundar" train is bogus. Incognito and Radfield are playing way too sketchy to me. But I'm going to be quiet until this lynch and see how things turn out. | ||
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Incognito, Radfield. Flip a coin. | ||
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You're afraid of good players. You're afraid that we will actually get you lynched, so you're not taking your chances. That is a great point. Why so timid KD? I think we have to avoid lynching Barundar right now for sure though. Don't like those votes on him at all. | ||
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On May 18 2011 12:59 Incognito wrote: Show nested quote + On May 18 2011 12:54 Barundar wrote: Even before I was supposedly "pressured", I haven't been trying to hide. I mean, if you look at my post times you'll see that my explanation that I was out of town actually does make sense. And like I've said before, I invite people to scrutinize me, since I know I'm town. Even if you don't like my playstyle, I'd still say that I've been the most controversial player here, even before I was supposedly "pressured". I'm just curious that you think I wasn't "active" earlier and that apparently I'm not noticed until now. You keep talking about your playstyle and whether people like it :/. I didn't vote you for your playstyle, I voted you for your lack of reasons. You have only started doing analysis and reasons after you got a head in vote. And from your previous observation that mafia was content having 10 lynch targets, I'd say that if I was mafia, I'd be content to sit out on the sidelines and watch someone else get lynched, no? You seemed quite content until you actually got a head... Actually if I was mafia, I'd have up to 6 teammates to help defend me. I probably would've never been ahead. I wouldn't need to pop up randomly and defend myself. Unless of course you want to call all my supporters mafia. I'd just take a step back and analyze the whole situation for a moment. If I am mafia, I'm the craziest most terrible mafia ever. Not exactly true. Depending on the nature of the lynch it can or can't make sense for teammates to defend you. I don't see anything about your lynch that screams "easy to defend" for possible teammates. What do you see? | ||
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On May 18 2011 13:03 Kavdragon wrote: Just got home hope this isn't late. In response to Incog's comparison of this game to XXXVIII: I got lynched. The guy who I was sure was mafia wasn't Mafia. Neither were you. Do you honestly expect me to repeat that same behavior? Also, since I won't be able to post this after my death: All newer players, please take note of the fact that Incog, Ace, and Caller all read me wrong. Vet's are not as good as anyone thinks, including themselves. The only thing you should be afraid of is their egos. I'm not sure if you've been paying attention but you do realize I have not voted for you right? | ||
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On May 18 2011 13:09 flamewheel wrote: I on the other hand don't mind lynching Kavdragon. I don't agree with lynching Barundar, and I don't agree with lynching Incognito. Besides, this allows me to potentially shoot Incognito myself if it comes down to it! Jokes aside, for now I have pretty much ignored the latter half of this day beyond cursorily glancing over posts made. Inactives are still inactive and need to contribute more, not post more. I'll look back over the thread after the first salvo of shots have been fired into the night. tnkted, Chaoser, and deconduo need to stop being inactive; Fishball and Scamp need to stop being useless. So who do you want to lynch besides Kavdragon? On May 18 2011 13:06 infinitestory wrote: Show nested quote + On May 18 2011 13:03 Kavdragon wrote: Just got home hope this isn't late. In response to Incog's comparison of this game to XXXVIII: I got lynched. The guy who I was sure was mafia wasn't Mafia. Neither were you. Do you honestly expect me to repeat that same behavior? Also, since I won't be able to post this after my death: All newer players, please take note of the fact that Incog, Ace, and Caller all read me wrong. Vet's are not as good as anyone thinks, including themselves. The only thing you should be afraid of is their egos. Uhh, you're not leading in votes right now. In any case, I think this meta behavioral analysis that people have been badgering Kavdragon with is not a solid foundation for a case. Kavdragon's posts have sounded very genuine (key word here) to me, even if they've contained some bad arguments at times. Which is one of the reasons I just ignored the case against him. I've got my own reasons for thinking he's possible Scum but it doesn't have anything to do with his past games. | ||
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Actually yea. I'll switch back to Incognito since Radfield has 0 chance of being lynched. | ||
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I feel like Ace is being useless, but at this point I don't think that he's mafia. All you did was add an extra post to the game. Oh my bad, and also threw GM under the bus, even though in that same post you called his play pro-town. Conveniently you ignored the other people that voted for you. Once again, "seeing things that aren't there". You remind me of Leonardo DiCaprio in Shutter Island. In fact - you're no longer Kavdragon. You're Leonardo KavCaprio. Academy Award for best bull bullshit performance: KavCaprio Academy Award for best posing job as a Townie while being Scum: Incognito Academy Award for most awesome player of all time: Ace (unanimous votes) Academy Award for best portrayal of batman: Academy Award for best ways to shit up a thread and start random wagons: Radfield Ladies and Gentleman! The Teamliquid Awards winners! | ||
Ace
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We got some scum in the woods! | ||
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On May 18 2011 14:23 Incognito wrote: Any of the single voter lists should be investigated. M2DT should investigate the Kavdragon lynch. I'll investigate the Barundar list once Mr. Inventory gives me a list check kit. If there is anyone that shouldn't be getting an investigation kit, it's you. You are on the Kavdragon lynch list. | ||
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On May 18 2011 14:30 Incognito wrote: Show nested quote + On May 18 2011 14:28 Ace wrote: Anyone not on the Barundar or Kavdragon voting lists. Anyone is not a good answer. Name someone specific please. Don't feel like it. | ||
Ace
United States16096 Posts
On May 18 2011 19:57 Radfield wrote: Ace, your attack of the Barundar train is silly given the fact that Kav flipped town. Basically what you're saying is that Barundar was an easy target for mafia to lump in on. That makes no sense, since they(we) were given an excellent opportunity to vote for Kavdragon instead, who flipped town. Anyone who needed a place to vote could have been 'persuaded' to vote Kav at any time. Now, that being said, the Barundar vote was the initial 2nd choice to voting for Incognito, so if by chance mafia were attempting to save Incog, then Barundar would have been the place to vote. However, if you're looking at votes to save Incog, it's the three that came down the stretch for Kav that did it. NO votes came down the stretch for Barundar(except for Foolishness, a valiant effort, but a failed one). Bumatlarge. Where were you(I don't mean this literally)? You vehemently defended Kavdragon early on, but completely disappeared for 6 hours, despite the heat growing considerably on him, only to pop in 1 minute after the day post to apologize. You never once pushed for Barundar, a player who was a viable alternative to Kav. Show nested quote + On May 18 2011 14:25 bumatlarge wrote: Are you guys honestly trying to pin this as kav's fault? You guys are all awful, Im 100x better then all of you. Excuse me while I net us some scum. No need to be aggressive when you did so little to stop it from happening. In other news, I look forward to you netting us scum. No, it's very valid. There has not been one credible argument against Barundar. Ever. Just because KavCaprio flipped Town doesn't mean Barundar is Scum. The Barundar train was terrible, just stop trying to pass it off. As for the bolded don't try and say "this is what you were saying". It wasn't. If I wanted to say it or imply it - I would have said it. Barundar and KavCaprio could both be innocent. Then what? Why would the mafia have to be "persuaded" to do anything? It's two innocents. As long as no mafia die there isn't any WIFOM there. It makes excellent sense. You and Incognito are the top 2 suspects. One for the KavCaprio lynch, the other for the Barundar train. This "Barundar was an alternative lynch" spiel is utter garbage. Show me just ONE credible case against him. | ||
Ace
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On May 19 2011 09:28 Incognito wrote: Show nested quote + On May 18 2011 19:19 Radfield wrote: + Show Spoiler + Incog, you fooled me the first game I ever played. I was sure you were pro-town, but instead you dominated town, took control, and lead mafia to victory with about 5 members left over. Something flamewheel hosted... XXI maybe? + Show Spoiler + In that game you died day 1. Don't think there was too much fooling going on there. Either way if you look at that game I'm playing wayyy differently. Ace and Foolishness don't deserve medic protection. Whoever is the Bullet Bill should check Eiii or Chaoser. Also reading over Radfield and Barundar's posts, I agree with the thesis that neither of the lynch candidates are mafia, and that the mafia probably wasn't heavily concerned about the lynch. This makes vote list checks that much more useless. I propose that Scamp give a gunpowder sniffing kit (that works like Bullet Bill) to someone instead of a vote list check kit. Individual checks are probably better right now than blanket checks. Besides, Mafia XII GF is the only mafia GF that can evade a BB check. Making bulletproof vests is useless. Its not like the inventor will even be able to guess who to give it to correctly. Show nested quote + On May 19 2011 01:39 Ace wrote: On May 18 2011 19:57 Radfield wrote: Ace, your attack of the Barundar train is silly given the fact that Kav flipped town. Basically what you're saying is that Barundar was an easy target for mafia to lump in on. That makes no sense, since they(we) were given an excellent opportunity to vote for Kavdragon instead, who flipped town. Anyone who needed a place to vote could have been 'persuaded' to vote Kav at any time. Now, that being said, the Barundar vote was the initial 2nd choice to voting for Incognito, so if by chance mafia were attempting to save Incog, then Barundar would have been the place to vote. However, if you're looking at votes to save Incog, it's the three that came down the stretch for Kav that did it. NO votes came down the stretch for Barundar(except for Foolishness, a valiant effort, but a failed one). Bumatlarge. Where were you(I don't mean this literally)? You vehemently defended Kavdragon early on, but completely disappeared for 6 hours, despite the heat growing considerably on him, only to pop in 1 minute after the day post to apologize. You never once pushed for Barundar, a player who was a viable alternative to Kav. On May 18 2011 14:25 bumatlarge wrote: Are you guys honestly trying to pin this as kav's fault? You guys are all awful, Im 100x better then all of you. Excuse me while I net us some scum. No need to be aggressive when you did so little to stop it from happening. In other news, I look forward to you netting us scum. No, it's very valid. There has not been one credible argument against Barundar. Ever. Just because KavCaprio flipped Town doesn't mean Barundar is Scum. The Barundar train was terrible, just stop trying to pass it off. As for the bolded don't try and say "this is what you were saying". It wasn't. If I wanted to say it or imply it - I would have said it. Barundar and KavCaprio could both be innocent. Then what? Why would the mafia have to be "persuaded" to do anything? It's two innocents. As long as no mafia die there isn't any WIFOM there. It makes excellent sense. You and Incognito are the top 2 suspects. One for the KavCaprio lynch, the other for the Barundar train. This "Barundar was an alternative lynch" spiel is utter garbage. Show me just ONE credible case against him. This is townie Ace who's too proud to do real analysis, or this is mafia Ace. The problem with Ace this game is that while he has been active in the thread and pushed an agenda, he hasn't taken the spotlight. He's piled everything up on me, and is content to sit back and yell the Incognito is scummy mantra. Ace isn't scumhunting. He's trying to lynch obvious townies who are just a bit out there. Ace is acting irrationally while trying to appear rational. He has a gun, so nobody's going to want to argue with him. Right? kitaman, please tell me why deconduo is confirmed anti-town Who's acting irrational? You were on the wagon of a confirmed innocent and flip flopped on Day 1. Stop it. | ||
Ace
United States16096 Posts
On May 19 2011 09:21 Foolishness wrote: I would put $100 on there not being any vote checks tonight. I'd also put $500 on Inventor not inventing a vote check kit or a bullet proof vest. why so lurkish Foolishness? Dead Townie Day 1, vote switching, shit plans - and you don't have anything to say? Please tell me you're just bored | ||
Ace
United States16096 Posts
Radfield according to your breakdown of "strategy" earlier in the game you were supposed to pick up Vote Rigger. But I checked you out last night and you aren't the Vote Rigger. I won't announce the role you have, but it is concerning you didn't follow your own plan. Explain. | ||
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Incognito is still going to get lynched, but somebody screwed up. Flamewheel isn't the problem here though. Something is off between Radfield and deconduo. | ||
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United States16096 Posts
I had to put my gun on hold last night because I talked to myself and said "wait, the unRadfield/Incognito duo would try and pull some slick stuff!" and they did. RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAADFIELD! WHERE ARE YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!? | ||
Ace
United States16096 Posts
On May 19 2011 13:35 Fishball wrote: Show nested quote + On May 19 2011 13:30 Ace wrote: ooooooo my now things are getting interesting! Incognito is still going to get lynched, but somebody screwed up. Flamewheel isn't the problem here though. Something is off between Radfield and deconduo. I was just about to follow up with my quote, that there is a possibility that the post Radfield made on page 45 was "a play". I won't say it out loud on what I'm thinking right now, but Ace, if you're on the same page based on your check results, you should know what I'm talking about. you're 100% correct ^_^ talk about "telegraphing" huh? lol | ||
Ace
United States16096 Posts
On May 19 2011 13:41 flamewheel wrote: Show nested quote + On May 19 2011 13:36 Ace wrote: *nods in agreement* I had to put my gun on hold last night because I talked to myself and said "wait, the unRadfield/Incognito duo would try and pull some slick stuff!" and they did. RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAADFIELD! WHERE ARE YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!? Wait, you didn't shoot one of them because you thought they would try to pull something tricky? Well, it makes the game more fun I suppose. Alright--let's figure out why there were only two shots. Obviously, Scamp was killed. I was shot. That's 2 KP for Mafia. First off: was anybody else shot? There are too many roles in this game, and I don't think that Mafia only have two bullets per night. Next, if there is indeed a copycat, he needs to claim--considering he's the new Inventor. Considering the whole point of discussing inventions was to try to control the Inventor, if there is another one I want to know who it is, for obvious basic accountability reasons. Yea. The way they behaved Day 1 they both played "risky" by their own words because imo they felt invincible. Waiting for Radfield to answer why he didn't pick up Vote Rigger. | ||
Ace
United States16096 Posts
On May 19 2011 14:11 chaoser wrote: Show nested quote + On May 19 2011 13:57 Foolishness wrote: On May 19 2011 13:55 Fishball wrote: On May 19 2011 13:47 flamewheel wrote: On May 19 2011 13:43 Foolishness wrote: if copycat is in the mafia hands, as everyone expects, they aren't going to claim Duh. I'm saying if the copycat is town he needs to claim. If not and inventions still flow, then it's just one more piece of the puzzle that becomes known. Not necessarily. If the Copy Cat is Town and claims, unless we're going to devote our resources and protect him 24/7, he would likely die. To be honest, I don't have a solid solution for this either, but just throwing it out there. We're probably better off just waiting until tomorrow and seeing if another invention comes up. If the copycat is in the town's hands, he can just make a name that's really pro town (e.g. vote check kit) to let us know. That doesn't mean anything though. They could be mafia, name something the vote check kit and actually it checks votes for blues or specific roles and such. Copycat should straight up claim if he's town since mafia killed Inventor, meaning they didn't get the Thief role so they can't steal it again from the CC. I say CC/Inventor claims, builds something we tell him to, and then we decide whether we want to protect them or not depending on who they are. Mafia is forced into a WIFOM situation and even if they do shoot inventor, it's fine since we shouldn't be relying on the inventor anyway. His invention names can always lead to ambiguous situations and we would end up discussing them too much and lose sight of scum hunting. I'm also interested in Radfield's Non-Vote Rigger Pick. @Mr. Wiggles....so if there's a politician they can just buy your lynch now? That's my only issue with him announcing he got King'd. Scum Politician is pretty dangerous. | ||
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United States16096 Posts
On May 19 2011 14:22 Mr. Wiggles wrote: Show nested quote + On May 19 2011 14:18 Ace wrote: On May 19 2011 14:11 chaoser wrote: On May 19 2011 13:57 Foolishness wrote: On May 19 2011 13:55 Fishball wrote: On May 19 2011 13:47 flamewheel wrote: On May 19 2011 13:43 Foolishness wrote: if copycat is in the mafia hands, as everyone expects, they aren't going to claim Duh. I'm saying if the copycat is town he needs to claim. If not and inventions still flow, then it's just one more piece of the puzzle that becomes known. Not necessarily. If the Copy Cat is Town and claims, unless we're going to devote our resources and protect him 24/7, he would likely die. To be honest, I don't have a solid solution for this either, but just throwing it out there. We're probably better off just waiting until tomorrow and seeing if another invention comes up. If the copycat is in the town's hands, he can just make a name that's really pro town (e.g. vote check kit) to let us know. That doesn't mean anything though. They could be mafia, name something the vote check kit and actually it checks votes for blues or specific roles and such. Copycat should straight up claim if he's town since mafia killed Inventor, meaning they didn't get the Thief role so they can't steal it again from the CC. I say CC/Inventor claims, builds something we tell him to, and then we decide whether we want to protect them or not depending on who they are. Mafia is forced into a WIFOM situation and even if they do shoot inventor, it's fine since we shouldn't be relying on the inventor anyway. His invention names can always lead to ambiguous situations and we would end up discussing them too much and lose sight of scum hunting. I'm also interested in Radfield's Non-Vote Rigger Pick. @Mr. Wiggles....so if there's a politician they can just buy your lynch now? That's my only issue with him announcing he got King'd. Scum Politician is pretty dangerous. Or I could be lying to see if my vote changes later in the day and tells us there's a scum politician present. Or I could be telling the truth and I'm worried about kingmaker/politician mafia combo. For now we'll see how people act when offered the potential for a double lynch. Which would be secondary to the fact that the Scum have an untraceable day kill. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
May 19 2011 16:29 GMT
#1036
On May 19 2011 19:25 Radfield wrote: Hi Ace Just sleeping like every night. It should have been apparant from the way I was posting in thread that I didn't take VR, but given how much your pushing, I'll assume you actually did check me last night. Here's the thing, if you know my role, which I assume you do, you shouldn't even need to question me. You should be saying " ahhhh, I see, I understand certain things now". You get what I'm saying? Yes, I didn't take vote-rigger, and that was a risk if mafia went for it below me(and then rigged the votes; obviously I would get held accountable). hmm, originally I was going to say more here Ace(and Fishball), but have edited most of it out. Lets be smart. Show nested quote + On May 19 2011 13:56 Mr. Wiggles wrote: And guys, I'd just like to let you all know I'm king today too. :p Ver, does the politician have to post in the thread with their ##nuke or ##lynch target? I've been assuming this is the case, but now i'm not so sure. I think this guarantees us a politician. A kingmaker on it's own it at worst a nuisance for town, at best a useful double lynch. Combined with a politician it is massively nasty. There is no way mafia would take Kingmaker without a politician, and no way a townie kingmaker would make Mr. Wiggles the king. Do people disagree with this hypothesis? Mr. Wiggles, I'd like for you to cast your vote right now for KillerSOS. If you do not, I think we will almost certainly lose a pro-town player to the politician. From my understanding, the king lynch operates like a dayvig, so if you use your power now, it's gone and there is nothing for the politician to use. If people want to call me scummy on this, that's fine, but it's the smart play. I know what your role is and thanks for the explanation but I really want to know why you didn't follow your own plan? Secondly don't tell Wiggles who to vote for. | ||
Ace
United States16096 Posts
May 19 2011 16:48 GMT
#1037
On May 19 2011 22:04 GMarshal wrote: Is it morning already? Cool. Ok, its time to bag some mafia, I'm the Mafia II Detective and I vote checked the Kav wagon. There were 2 mafia voting for Kavdragon yesterday, which means that out of 6 voters KAVDRAGON (6): , GMarshal, Caller, Incognito, Chezinu, Node, flamewheel two are scum and the rest are town or cleverly disguised mafia. I know I'm town, which means we should lynch into one of these five today: Caller, Incognito, Chezinu, Node, flamewheel. If there were any alignment checks in there then we can narrow the lynch even more. I'd ask we keep all discussion and votes focused on these five candidates, and if wiggles would be so kind we can lynch Chezinu and only have four people to worry about, some of which we can actually analyze Also if there are any medics in play, a protect would be *really* nice tonight That is all. Carry on. (also apologies for vanishing last night, computer issues + craptone of work = no time for mafia) And of those 6, Flamewheel and Caller are at the top of the draft order. Since Scamp died and FW claimed to have been hit last night I think we can guess where the next hits are going. Incognito is once again back in the pot. Let's be serious here. InfiniteStory gave a good breakdown of his Day 1 posting, and several players have questioned his behavior. We even said the Kavdragon lynch was wishy washy and to top it off he's found on a list check with Scum votes according to GM. All that theory about "Mafia laying back and not being active" is now out the window. Once again bullshitting. Vote him off. Now. On May 20 2011 01:11 Foolishness wrote: Also, can Ace confirm that Radfield doesn't have some anti-town role? You (Ace) made it sound like Radfield picked some terrible role that only hurts the town, in which case we need to be killing him tonight. Depends on your definition of anti-town and what the circumstances are. Whether it's anti-town or not isn't the case here and I never commented on anyone's pre-determined "anti-town" lists. The fact that he is high up in the draft order and made a plan that he didn't follow, combined with his sketchy play Day 1 makes this an issue. His answer to my question was pretty bad and I expected something more. On May 19 2011 23:21 dreamflower wrote: As I have been relatively quiet this game, I'm hoping to make up for it now by mustering my courage and actually building a case against someone that I've been suspicious about for much of the game: Ace. This seems especially timely now that people like bumatlarge are starting to believe he is pro-town. Kavdragon has already done a little of this here, though he ruined his own point by vacillating at the end and saying "I don't think he's Mafia." I, on the other hand, think Ace is most likely Mafia, after having reviewed his posts in the game for the tenth or so time. Besides, even if my case doesn't make much of an impact, I hope the simple act of sharing my thoughts about who is Mafia should help town in the long run, if only to give other scum-hunters more help in determining my alignment for themselves. As much as I can, I'm going to avoid evaluating Incognito's play so far and concentrate on Ace's responses to him, which I have found very telling. He has very loudly and noisily attacked Incognito for being scum and urged everyone to lynch him, but when pressed, his only reasoning was, "Incognito made some weird posts at the beginning of the game. He was the first one to point fingers at someone." This reasoning makes little sense to me, considering that, first of all, everyone in this game has made random posts at some point. Ace's own early-game posts are hardly masterpieces of insight and deep thinking themselves, with witticisms like "TLDR I fell asleep reading this," "I'm going to sleep now," "The shit is this?", and "Hey, look, I have a gun!" (Hehe, I just noticed that Ace also says, "I'm going to relax this game" early on and then later, "I don't know if you're on LSD or what, but not once did I suggest "sitting back and relaxing" this game.") If Ace were really serious about accusing people who have made weird posts this game, why hasn't he said anything about Chezinu? What about KillerSOS, whose contributions have been largely one-liners with little thought or substance that I can find? Or anyone else who has been lurking? While Chezinu does have a reputation for being off-the-wall, this isn't a PM-allowed game where he can justify his public inanity with private ingenuity. At this point, his cryptic posts are just cluttering up the game without contributing anything comprehensible to us readers. Yet, Ace doesn't even mention Chezinu, despite the fact that his confusing posts far outweigh Incognito's. Instead, Ace's insists on going after Incognito despite his own condemnnation of people who make accusations based off 1-5 posts. Second, while Incognito's posts started out puzzling and dubious, he's since given us a wealth of thoughts, player and role analysis, and ideas. While the merits of his vote-checking plan remain in doubt and his Kavdragon read turned out to be incorrect, Incognito has undeniably been active and thoughtful and has put a lot of effort into analyzing roles and the strategies that lets the town put them to use. However, Ace never actually addresses Incognito's more substantial recent posts or criticizees the points he makes about either vote lists or Kavdragon. He avoids saying anything definitive about anyone, aside from half-heartedly criticizing people voting for Barundar. At one point, he actually agrees with Incognito about Kavdragon being timid, then inexplicably switches his vote to Radfield amid the chaos before the lynch. As far as I could tell, Ace's entire reaction to Incognito's vote-list-arranging plan and accusation against Kavdragon was more of the same that he was already posting before: a big picture of Leonardo DiCaprio, with a cute nickname for Kavdragon and another unbacked claim of Incognito posting as town, without any further reasoning behind it. Speaking of Radfield, Ace has recently started attacking him without any reasoning either, as far as I can tell. Aside from calling him sketchy once, he hasn't given any reason for now attacking Incognito and Radfield with equally rabid fervor. I admit I think some of Radfield's priorities in his early "Town Pick" and "Town No-Pick" role lists were a bit skewed, but I haven't seen anything else from him that makes me suspicious. He too has put a lot of effort into trying to help guide and lead the town, analyze fellow players, and back up his assertions with good reasons. Yet, Ace is now claiming he is scum as well. Why is Ace picking on the two most active, hardworking, and analytical players in the game, who have both done their best to offer pro-town plans? Why hasn't he offered more than one-line analyses of either of them? For that matter, why has he rarely posted more than one or two lines at a time at all this entire game? If anyone would like specific examples of Ace's posts to support my points, please let me know and I will go find them and quote them. I don't like Ace's play at all this game, because he supplies so little reasoning to support his accusations of strong players while totally ignoring non-contributing players like Chezinu or KillerSOS. Either he is just being lazy and skating on his name and reputation, or he is Mafia trying to pick off well-known players. So, today, I will be voting for him to be lynched. Review them for an 11th time. Amazing you come out with this when we've got a vote list checker with 2 Scum out of 6, your boy Radfield on the wax and Incognito about to go down in flames. Trying to steer attention away from them much? You keep trying to throw Chezinu and KillerSOS's "lack of posting" into the mix as if I'm supposed to be watching them. I know what I've seen from Incognito and it is not good. Bet $20 dreamflower picked Mad Hatter. As for you bolded thats completely untrue. Being Active and "hardworking" doesn't make you pro-town. Should we give the citi.zenship Award to everyone who points fingers? And my case for Radfield is very well grounded. If you notice I haven't called Radfield scum yet or even cast my vote on him - you're saying things that didn't happen. I'm just waiting for Radfield to explain himself even better. If being pro-town in your words is creating plans then Radfield is in trouble as he didn't follow his own plan. | ||
Ace
United States16096 Posts
May 19 2011 16:50 GMT
#1038
On May 20 2011 01:09 Foolishness wrote: Show nested quote + On May 19 2011 16:53 Node wrote: Let's talk about Foolishness. + Show Spoiler + He's done nothing of consequence. He's maybe tickled Incognito a couple of times, but the majority of his posts do two things: 1) Complain. 2) Nothing. Here's his latest big ol' post. + Show Spoiler + On May 19 2011 12:05 Foolishness wrote: Show nested quote + On May 19 2011 10:08 Ace wrote: On May 19 2011 09:21 Foolishness wrote: I would put $100 on there not being any vote checks tonight. I'd also put $500 on Inventor not inventing a vote check kit or a bullet proof vest. why so lurkish Foolishness? Dead Townie Day 1, vote switching, shit plans - and you don't have anything to say? Please tell me you're just bored I'm bored of listening to lazy plans of how blue roles are going to win us the game while people like Radfield slowly get others (scamp, deconduo) to claim their role in the thread. I almost feel like we should all just mass claim at this point to at least try to coordinate our blues instead of just hoping they do what we want while mafia probe people in the thread to figure out who to kill. At the end of the day yesterday, I just thought Incognito had a bad case of Pyrrhuloxitis and wasn't really mafia, since to me some of his arguments against Kav were lol. So I didn't change my vote off of him until the end, but I lost track of time because I was watching proleague. Shit happens. Now I'm not sure what to think anymore. At the very least, Incog's attitude does not help the town in the current situation so I will still be voting him unless new information surfaces. And frankly, I doubt anything new will come up. If the vote checker checks some list (as planned) would you have them claim the results even if they aren't damning? We all know mafia spread out votes as much as possible, so they will probably get a 1/5 people are mafia in one of the lists. Well big freaking deal since we got a 1/5 chance of randomly killing a mafia with a lynch anyways. I fail to see how vote checking is going to get us anywhere tomorrow. This game has lots of good players, mafia aren't going to be stupid and lose because of a vote check. If nobody else is going to try to do some normal, mafia analysis, we might as well just throw in the towel now. These vote checks which are going to return 1/5 are mafia aren't going to help anything until day 4 when we get a bunch more vote checks to properly nab the mafia. Game will probably be close to over by then. Ace, you are the one who said we didn't have much to talk about, and already had the max (or close to max) amount of information we could possibly get from day 1 prodding. I don't even expect you to still be reading this post. But if you want to sit around with your gun and let people like Radfield and Incognito mess up the town that's your deal. I got better things to do. It's a classic case of saying a lot while not actually saying anything. He champions analysis while doing none of his own, he shoots down the vote checker plan that nobody's been attempting for a day, he prods ace and says that he's got better things to do, but what those would be is anyone's guess. The only concrete contribution that Foolishness has had to the game is his frequent needling of Incognito. It all boils down to, "Incognito wants to win with blues but no analysis", which, granted, would be a bad thing if that was what Incognito wanted. He's constantly been saying "analysis good, do analysis", but has yet to become the change he wants to see. What raises my suspicions even more is that people are willing to say that he's worth defending (hint: he's not). People that I currently don't trust have been softly aligning themselves with Foolishness for reasons that I don't understand. For instance, Mr. Wiggles has Foolishness on his protect list here: + Show Spoiler + On May 18 2011 16:31 Mr. Wiggles wrote: Ok then, here's my thoughts for tonight: Role-Checks: These are the people who, at the moment, it would be a good idea to check their role. If scum got any of the first queue spots, they're likely to have taken a strong scum role from the no-pick list. Flamewheel Scamp Caller Barundar Radfield GMarshal Alignment Checks: These are the people I find somewhat suspicious, or who it would be nice to have an alignment check on. Barundar Node Tnkted Incognito Radfield Ace Vig-Hit: Deconduo I'm thinking he's VI, maybe mafia Hero, either way he isn't helping town, and I don't want to waste a lynch on him later. Debatable. Medic list: These are the people I think ought to be protected. Either they're acting pro-town already, or have good potential to help town day 2. Caller bumatlarge Radfield Incognito Flamewheel Foolishness This is just a summary of my thoughts at the moment. Disagree? Want to add? Just cause it's night doesn't mean we need to shut up. quoth Radfield: On May 17 2011 04:59 Radfield wrote: I agree with everything Foolishness is saying. Radfield also has Foolishness on his protect list here: + Show Spoiler + On May 18 2011 19:19 Radfield wrote: So much for 100% eh Incog.... On the bright side, this lynch hopefully gives us oodles of information down the line, once incog and Barundars alignment flips. On another bright note, Incognito won't get targeted by mafia tonight, so in the event he is town he'll probably survive the night. Unless of course a townie shoots him, but if that's the case so be it. Mr. Wiggles, I very much disagree with your rolecheck list. There is a list of roles in this game that no townie should be caught dead with, so we want to use our rolechecks to try and ascertain alignment. Checking the people at the top of the list gives us very little information regarding their alignment. The top 6/7 all have an excellent excuse(whether legit or not) for taking an anti-town role. No one else on the list has that excuse. Anyone with a role check should be looking at whomever they think is scummy lower down on the list. If they have a scummy role(a role on the no-pick list) then they're probably mafia. I really hope someone does an alignment check on Barundar. Even setting aside my suspicions, he was assigned caller gf or cpr doc, so knowing his alignment is very important. Other players worth an alignment check: Flamewheel Infinitestory? Incognito Mr. Wiggles Chaoser dreamflower Players worth some medic protection: Radfield Bum Caller Ace - probably won't get picked off though foolishness - if town he likely has a defensive role anyways GMarshall - there are heaps of suspicion on him, so he is unlikely to get hit Scamp, as inventor, should get a skiff of medic protection Anyone else dying wouldn't be terrible at this point. I'd like to stress that flamewheel doesn't belong on any medic lists, or townie lists. He has done very little to contribute to the town this game. Besides, assuming he is telling the truth about JOAT, I'm pretty sure he can protect himself if he wants to. Inventor(Scamp) should be passing the vote-list checks either to whomever they have the strongest pro-town read on. Chaoser, despite finishing his interviews(his pre-tuesday excuse) still ended up contributing basically zero to the discussion. Simply popped in and voted Incog. Pick it up Chaoser. + Show Spoiler + Incog, you fooled me the first game I ever played. I was sure you were pro-town, but instead you dominated town, took control, and lead mafia to victory with about 5 members left over. Something flamewheel hosted... XXI maybe? + Show Spoiler + On May 18 2011 13:03 Kavdragon wrote: Also, since I won't be able to post this after my death: All newer players, please take note of the fact that Incog, Ace, and Caller all read me wrong. Vet's are not as good as anyone thinks, including themselves. The only thing you should be afraid of is their egos. ##Vote Foolishness Well of course I'm complaining. Yesterday the town fell into the hands of Incognito and his big ego. And I'm always going to be around to call bs on a player who claims blues are going to win us the game. I thought town was in a terrible situation last night given how easily Incog was able to sway everyone to vote for Kav. Granted I expected 3-5 people to die at night instead of 1. Chez says I have a scum agenda, would like to hear what that is (even though we all know that ain't gonna happen). At any rate, we got 2 mafia in a list of 5 (remember that you're one of them). Of course I'm going to vote Wiggles kill Incognito, but I'll settle for Chez as well. I don't think many people will have an objection to killing Chez so it's probably best for Wiggles to just kill him now before another role is able to step in and do something about it. I say we vote Chezinu off and let Mr.Wiggles kill Incognito. After yesterday I really don't trust most of the town to think clearly. They've been reading posts but ignoring actions, and even looking at other games as if it's evidence as to whats going to happen this game. | ||
Ace
United States16096 Posts
May 19 2011 18:02 GMT
#1048
On May 20 2011 02:28 Incognito wrote: See? Something turned up. Given how the last few pages turned out I'm pretty confident the recent posters are town. I wouldve expected maybe 1 player on the Kavdragon lynch to actually be mafia, but I guess there's two. At this point, my guess is on Chezinu and Caller. Feel free to lynch me. But I seriously doubt you'll be able to, once I do the exact opposite of what the mafia would want to do. ##Nuke Chezinu Everyone should agree that getting rid of Chezinu is a pro-town move. Especially now that there is a vote check on the Kavdragon lynch. Now seriously, what mafia would shoot into a vote list that has 2/6 red on it? Unless of course I am conspiring with GMarshal to screw over the town, this doesn't make any sense. But then again, conspiring with GMarshal doesn't make too much sense either if I'm announcing that option. Furthermore, it makes no sense for mafia to take America. Especially after Radfield proclaimed it an anti-town role. But if you think about it, its the most transparent role in the game. There's no way for me to hide from a misuse of the role, and its not like I can use it to kill blatant townspeople without significant backlash. Frankly put, America is a ridiculous option for mafia. There are way better KP roles for them to use. So feel free to pile your votes on me now. Nobody else type the nuke command. When Ver confirms that a nuke has been launched, you can all take your votes off me, ok? I'll be back later with some more thoughts. + Show Spoiler + Funny thing I saw a couple days ago in the news: "IMF chief's arrest stirs up anti-Americanism in France" Seems fitting, huh Radfield? :/ Why are you always trying to force us with this "this role is a ridiculous option for Mafia" talk? I thought you and Radfield agreed that this was another role on the no-pick list? See. This is what I don't get about you two. Both of you are going against your Day 1 plans. What gives Incognito? With Radfield I have an idea about his..."pick" and it has nothing to do with whats going on this game. But now you're nuking when I could have sworn "nukes are bad" was a Scum move. So now if Chezinu flips town we waste a day on you, and if he flips Scum you just bussed a teammate and started a which hunt on 4 other innocents. You didn't even discuss anything, or even claim before nuking (if your even America). How is that pro-town? | ||
Ace
United States16096 Posts
May 19 2011 18:11 GMT
#1050
So why did you nuke Chezinu with no discussion from anyone else? That's a bit hasty isn't it? | ||
Ace
United States16096 Posts
May 19 2011 18:43 GMT
#1057
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
May 19 2011 18:58 GMT
#1059
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
May 19 2011 22:00 GMT
#1066
On May 20 2011 06:47 Radfield wrote: Whatever Incog's alignment, shooting into those 6 players is great for town(and shooting Chez in particular). If Incog actually turns out to be America, we should not lynch. As long as he is willing to off anti-town players, it's a boon for us on the whole. If he ever does make an anti-town play, or even a questionable play that he tries to talk himself out of, we lynch. The way Ace is talking he'll shoot him tonight though. Speaking of Ace, why the hell are you softballing suspicion on me over my role? If you know my role, you know EXACTLY why I didn't follow my own plan. Fishball, assuming you rolechecked me(which you are insinuating) can you back me up that a) you know exactly why I did what I did, and b) there is no reason to be suspicious of me not taking VR. If you keep this up Ace, I'm probably gonna have to make an all-caps angry role claim.... Wiggles, where did you go. Lynch node if you pop in in the next hour, but i'm going to go over Caller right now, and may or may not make a case. I originally had him as town, but I seem to recall him playing fairly semi-lurker when he's mafia, and he's been quite quiet this game. Nothing sure yet though.... I have my suspicion because of your Day 1 plan. I mean you can't even give me a decent reason for why you didn't follow it? But don't role claim, I could have said what your role is myself. For now we'll drop it. I'm not going to shoot Incognito just yet. I still don't understand how anybody is buying him nuking ANYONE as a pro-town move. If you're a suspect and you nuke someone who is also on the suspect list then of course it's going to look like a "good move". I'm shocked some of you are actually buying this. | ||
Ace
United States16096 Posts
May 20 2011 04:33 GMT
#1087
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
May 20 2011 18:11 GMT
#1134
I still think Incognito is the other Scum. I've already said it but I guess people expect some giant post which I won't do. It's very simple. Incognito has a role that was discussed earlier as a role a townie shouldn't have, and now he says "oh but Scum wouldn't be caught with this role, so it means I have to be town!" - um no. As I've always said Scum will do whatever they think furthers their win condition. If it means picking a role that shows up as Obvious Scum but they can WIFOM you to death and get away with it - they'll always pick it. Secondly this is just too convenient. Like I said he immediately launched the nuke at Chezinu with barely any discussion about it. No one save dreamflower ever even brought up a case about him and then all of a sudden it's a "pro-town move to nuke Chezinu". Come on people read the thread because this is bad play at it's finest. If he really is pro-town then why didn't he wait for input from anyone else or even discuss the other suspects? As for this lets lynch chaoser train it's the same thing as the Barundar train from yesterday. Shoddy reasoning and people not reading just going for the random lynch. Where is the analysis that chaoser is Scum? | ||
Ace
United States16096 Posts
May 20 2011 19:08 GMT
#1140
Besides IF Foolishness is Scum then why go after him right now? This list of suspects with 2/6 being mafia has to be cleared up first. As for KillerSOS I don't have a major opinion about him as I've pretty much only concentrated on a few sets of people so far. I understand the argument about him is that he's been useless or inactive. If thats the case well thats why we have a King Maker ^_^ | ||
Ace
United States16096 Posts
May 20 2011 19:18 GMT
#1142
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
May 20 2011 19:34 GMT
#1146
@FW: Needless to say I don't agree on your analysis of what a Mafia America would do. | ||
Ace
United States16096 Posts
May 20 2011 19:42 GMT
#1148
On May 21 2011 04:32 Incognito wrote: The reason why Ace should be killed is for political reasons. Yes, you try to kill scum. But when townies are obstructing reasonable discussion and blindly pushing their own agenda, you have to get rid of them simply to clear the atmosphere so you can start afresh and see the game through a new lens. In this game, I messed up in the beginning, and had to relook at the game all over again from a different perspective. You can't really force someone to do that, so when it seems like they will drive the town into the ground (yes, Ace holds enough sway in this town that people WILL listen to him), they need to be eliminated. A clear town with one less member is better than a confused and lost town with an extra member. This has nothing to do with Ace annoying me. If it did, I would've nuked Ace instead of Chezinu. Note how in Red Army Mafia (the bang bang one) I didn't eliminate Ace also even though he was being super obnoxious. He was pretty much doing the same thing he's doing now. Not sure if we should have killed him in retrospect, but in this game I'm feeling that Ace is off the right track. wut? From Red Army Mafia On August 17 2009 09:22 Zato-1 wrote: Show nested quote + On August 17 2009 08:14 coltrane wrote: who killed me? I told yoou since day 1, dont trust ace. What? Ace was one of the biggest contributors to the Town. As the field marshal, the most likely way he could die was by getting lynched, so he did his best to stay on the Town's good side, by contributing against the mafia. No one suspects him, and the fewer mafia there are the smaller the chances all his bodyguards get killed. He never did the town any harm. Town won that game with my help. You must be confused about what happened. | ||
Ace
United States16096 Posts
May 20 2011 20:24 GMT
#1155
On May 21 2011 05:07 Radfield wrote: Show nested quote + On May 21 2011 04:34 Ace wrote: @GMarshal: If we don't lynch Incognito then who from the remaining players on the list is the second Scum? We have to clear that out first. Does ANYONE else on that list appear Scummier than Incognito? If so, vote for them. I'm not trying to be a dink here, but I don't fully understand why we need to clear the list out. I understand we need to eventually, but why right away, right now? We have the information, so it can wait for us to deal with it until we're ready. Our ultimate goal is to kill the mafia, so if targeting players on the list doesn't get that done the best, then we let it lie for now. No? No one really has a anti-town read on either Caller or flame, GMarshal seems town aligned, Incog seems town to a large portion, and Node doesn't seem particularly scummy. It seems to me that waiting a night cycle and putting some investigations on those remaining 5 is a prudent course of action. If mafia want to shoot players off the list, great. Better them than us. Also, GMarshall, it's a bit ironic that you mention no one is coming to Incogs defense, because actually quite a few players are. Myself, Barundar, yourself, tnkted, dreamflower and maybe a couple others. Mind you, in my mind those are almost mostly 'lock-solid townies'. We clear it out because we know 2 out of 6 are scum. Why would we go another direction when we already know where to look? That makes no sense. Secondly a "large portion" of town hasn't claimed Incog is innocent, especially looking at the voting thread so that point is false. If you don't have an anti-town read on Caller or flame, believe GMashal and Incog are town, and that Node doesn't seem Scummy then who does that leave? | ||
Ace
United States16096 Posts
May 20 2011 20:39 GMT
#1160
chaoser has been active in the thread. | ||
Ace
United States16096 Posts
May 20 2011 20:54 GMT
#1167
I agree that there probably does exist a Framer or GF or something to mess up reads. If enough people speak up and say they don't find anyone other than Chezinu scummy then we may have to re-evaluate where to look and that would resolve that GMarshal's list got tampered with. But whether it did or didn't happen it doesn't clear Incognito's scummy actions. That imo is the lynch pin to this entire thing. Even on Day 1 when I unvoted him I was tinkering on him just being borderline scum and messing up my read. But the quickness with which he nuked Chezinu just doesn't add up to me. Other than that, if we look elsewhere the case against chaoser doesn't make sense. KillerSOS is the safe lynch since he's been lurking and is probably best left for the King lynch. This way we can somewhat do "both things at once" - normal lynch for the GM list, King lynch for the chaffe. | ||
Ace
United States16096 Posts
May 20 2011 23:49 GMT
#1186
On May 21 2011 08:11 kitaman27 wrote: Wiggles, will you be around to use your kill at least three hours before the lynch? That should give us enough time to switch based on the results. I would suggest lynching into the kav group. It's Incognito and KillerSOS imo. One from the Kav group, the other from the "chaffe" group. Either way they are the top 2 vote getters. | ||
Ace
United States16096 Posts
May 21 2011 03:34 GMT
#1278
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
May 21 2011 03:37 GMT
#1281
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
May 21 2011 03:45 GMT
#1289
On May 21 2011 12:38 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: Show nested quote + On May 21 2011 12:37 Ace wrote: And I think if it's that simple then some of them are definite Scum. If KillerSOS gets lynched and doesn't flip Scum that will be the second day in a row the same thing happened. Rather than making insinuations would you care to let everyone know who the scum are in this group? hold on cowboy. Unlike you guys I do things bit by bit. The reason we are in this slight state of confusion is because everyone wants to throw out so many scum accusations. Patience. | ||
Ace
United States16096 Posts
May 21 2011 03:48 GMT
#1292
On May 21 2011 12:44 bumatlarge wrote: Balls, we should lynch node instead EVERYONE VOTE NODE, do we know what rose colored glasses are going to do? No, only the user and inventor does. So what do we make of when we see "Sunday morning suprise!" or "tea leaves and vinegar"? I don't like it at all, a person everyone feels is scummy is getting away with a role thats too powerful to be in mafia hands, even for just a day. I'll switch once someone on killerSOS, (he claimed tracker god dammit...) gets off, because killerSOS is a phenomenally retarded lynch. Mafia at work tut tut. hah. It's interesting now that you mention it since I also glossed over it. A major suspect claims inventor and there isn't a fuss? v_v I've got a gun but I think I need to use my role check on someone else tonight. | ||
Ace
United States16096 Posts
May 21 2011 04:10 GMT
#1301
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
May 21 2011 04:15 GMT
#1303
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
May 21 2011 05:20 GMT
#1337
Anyway here is my list of the Scum team at the moment: Incognito Chezinu Radfield Mr.Wiggles Let me explain before unRadfield starts frothing at the mouth. First of all like I said about Incognito - besides his earlier play and the fact he picked America, it's people saving him. Someone earlier said Incognito isn't Scum because no one was defending him. That couldn't be further from the truth. On both days when the heat came to his doorstep miraculously a few posters jumped to his defense and voted for shoddy targets. First day it was KavCaprio. Second day it's KillerSOS, who just so happened to claim Tracker and confirmed I did visit Radfield last night. Now that he flipped Town you know this wasn't a setup. Conveniently the only thing "saving" Radfield is that he was on the wagon for Barundar and not Kavdragon. Not really much saving since Barundar ended 1 vote shy of the lynch tied with Incognito. However Radfield's defense has been very bad. I TOLD you guys it was just too convenient that the man ignored his own plan and picked America, and then tried to weasel his way out of it. But since Radfield has been Incognito's number 1 defender and should be smarter than this I firmly believe he is Scum. Chezinu, yea ok. Nuff said. Mr.Wiggles...sigh. This one is actually the weirdest or "loosest" of them all but I believe he is Scum. This stems from the fact that of the list of 6 people TWO were scum and he had King lynch power. Why would you lynch Original Name? For a townie wanting to find Scum the obvious lynch was any of those 6 targets. Lynching anyone off of the list got you nothing unless it was someone most of the town believed to be Scum. ON was NOT one of those players. There were what, 3 maybe 4 people accusing him? Why not lynch chaoser if you wanted to lynch someone off the list? My take is that knowing chaoser is under heavy suspicion, lynching just one "randomly useless townie" made the perfect scape goat move. But the real cracker here? Incognito:8 infinitestory killersos ace tnkted foolishness chezinu OriginalName <---HOLY SHIT BATMAN! bumatlarge ON was one of the people on the list that voted for Incognito before the deadline. By eliminating ON he not only killed a "useless townie" but also dropped the vote count on Incognito by 1, making it easier to lynch KillerSOS. Of the 4, Incognito and Chezinu are definite Scum. Radfield I'm leaning towards heavily being Scum because his defense and ignorance of the wagon derailment TWICE isn't just a coincidence. Wiggles, yea whatever. Add in the fact that Flamewheel dies and there is just too much coincidence to ignore here. Tonight, I'm shooting Incognito. Tomorrow, we vote off Chezinu and Kingmaker kills Radfield or Wiggles. It's about to be Day 3 with no dead mafia and I'm tired of watching you morons point fingers in all the wrong places. Anyone who doesn't wanna follow my lead can kick rocks. I'm doing things my way from now on. | ||
Ace
United States16096 Posts
May 21 2011 05:22 GMT
#1339
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
May 21 2011 05:28 GMT
#1341
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
May 21 2011 05:43 GMT
#1348
On May 21 2011 14:39 infinitestory wrote: inb4 Node is town inventor, and Incog and Node are bussed tonight. damn I forgot. I guess I'll just investigate someone's role instead then. | ||
Ace
United States16096 Posts
May 21 2011 17:25 GMT
#1370
On May 21 2011 18:44 Incognito wrote: Ace's guide to playing mafia Ace does not fail to disappoint. This game should be a great example for how to play politics and how to play mafia. Lets look at Dreamflower's points against Ace. First, she points out that Ace is tunneling off of very little information, and isn't looking at other people's suspicious actions. Only a few posts into the game, Ace suddenly comes to the conclusion that I'm mafia because I'm finger pointing, and pushes that point through the thread. Yes, I was finger pointing. But why does this make me mafia? Ace gives no such reason. Instead, he continues to push this idea until it finally becomes the truth. Between day 1 and now, Ace has successfully turned the small point about finger pointing into a mass lynch Incognito movement. This is exactly what mafia wants to do. They want to push bad lynches while inflating the notion that the target is "scummy". Once the target flips town, the accuser merely points to the evidence that the "target was scummy". And they are likely to get away with it, given the fact that they've gotten half the town to believe that "target was scummy". So what has Ace been doing here? He's been pushing a movement to lynch me off of shoddy evidence while hiding behind his "finger pointers are suspicious" shield. Let us examine the point about finger pointing. Is finger pointing inherrently suspicious? It is true that mafia want to lynch townies. It is also true that it is generally bad for town when there are multiple candidates out on the field, each with shoddy reasoning. It is also true that bandwagons formed on shoddy reasoning are anti-town. The crux of the matter is that it is anti-town when townies are lynched on shoddy reasoning. Ideally, the mafia want to push innocent lynches without being linked to the lynch. Mafia want to start a bandwagon on townies without being noticed. Why would town want to finger point? Generally, it is a bad idea to vote without explanation. Yet plenty of townies have done it, some to apply pressure (read: Foolishness in XXXVII for Seraph). Inactives also tend to do this. Is this pro-town behavior? Generally not. Is it an indication that said player is scum? No, townies do this all the time. So in general, while finger pointing isn't a very town-friendly action, it isn't a "scumtell". It is a slightly anti-town action that may be good support for other evidence that someone is mafia, but it should certainly not be the basis for any scum accusation. The second piece of Dreamflower's analysis is critical. She points out that Ace has literally ignored all my real contributions, hasn't criticized any of my actual points, and hasn't said anything definitive about anyone (except me and Radfield, who Dreamflower points out was also accused off of shoddy reasoning - Ace accused him because he started the Barundar lynch, even though we have no evidence of Barundar's town alignment). Note how Ace also doesn’t respond to Dreamflower’s accusation, but simply points out some errors in Dreamflower’s post that aren’t crucial to her argument. If you go back to look at Ace's posts, Dreamflower’s accusations are accurate. Ace ignores all my early game points about the politician/vote rigger combo, town roles, and thesis about how the game is progressing. Now I would perfectly understand if Ace disagreed with my points (people like Radfield certainly did). Yet he didn't do that, he merely ignored my post and throughout the whole entire game has refused to acknowledge the fact that I made some key contributions to the discussion. In the meanwhile though, he attacks me for asking people to reread the thread without specifying anything special. Its clear Ace is reading my posts. Selectively reading, that is. Ace is glad to point out where I'm scummy, yet fails to acknowledge some pretty important contributions I have made. Ace agrees that Kavdragon is suspicious earlier in the day ("something piqued my interest), prods him for a few pages in the thread, and even agrees that Kavdragon is timid, but then turns full circle and attacks me for leading the Kavdragon lynch. This is an excellent example of how mafia play. Ace is really the one who starts the Kavdragon lynch. Yet in public opinion, I am responsible for the lynch. Here's what happened. After Caller and Ace get the ball rolling, I fall for the bait and go on a rampant lynch Kavdragon train. My confidence and thread influence work in the mafia's favor this time and is perfect for Ace, as he can now do a 180 and appear to be "saving" Kavdragon while assigning responsibility for the lynch to me. When Kavdragon pops up town, Ace immediately points out the Kavdragon voters as super suspicious while making himself appear like he tried to stop a town lynch. But what did Ace really do? He accuses Kavdragon of BSing when Kavdragon claims he is "trying to gather information", and tells Kavdragon that he won't live til day 2. Later in the day after I have already started on the lynch Kavdragon train, Ace comes out and agrees that Kavdragon is acting timid, thus throwing more fuel onto the fire. Ace never votes Kavdragon, and toward the end of the day, switches his vote back to me (from Radfield) and states that "suspicious are the votes on KavDragon". Complete 180 from his previous (vicious) attacks that Kavdragon wouldn't live to see day 2 and that he was so timid. Once Kavdragon flips green, Ace trumpets the alarm, cries foul, and pretends like he never had a hand in the Kavdragon lynch. This is an example of perfect execution of scum play. Ace shows a textbook example of how to effectively finger point as mafia. Unlike me on day 1, he actively gives reasons for Kavdragon’s scumminess (the reasons are false scumtells, but they seem convincing as reasons nonetheless). This accusation catches fire, which leads others (Caller and myself) to take notice and agree with them. Once we build cases of our own, Ace then backs out right in time to pin the responsibility on me, using it to add fuel to the anti-Incognito case. As evidenced by the fact that he uses the Kavdragon lynch as a reason to paint me red, Ace clearly did not simply change his mind about the Kavdragon lynch. He intentionally started the lynch and blamed it on someone else. Townies have no reason to start a lynch and then turn around and accuse people on the bandwagon. Ace is hiding the fact that he was a major contributor to the Kavdragon lynch. Continuing on into day 2, Ace pops up and cries foul yet again after checking Radfield. While it is very likely that Ace is a capitalist and truly did check Radfield, his announcement does a brilliant job of adding fuel to the fire and furthering his case against "the unRadfield/Incognito duo", which is a complete fabrication. While it is true that Radfield has defended me, it should be pretty clear that Radfield is actually trying to think things through. In any case, Ace's cries of foul play further cast suspicion on Radfield even though Ace never reveals what Radfield's role is. Ace accuses Radfield for not following his own plan (hardly an indication of mafia), and announces to the world that Radfield "tried to pull some slick stuff", implying that Radfield has shady play without giving details. Ace creates a drama about Radfields role, gives out no details, and uses this to further his anti-Radfield case (at this point Radfield is inexplicably tied to me in his eyes). This effectively furthers mafia goals and places doubt on Radfield without Ace having to lie or show any real analysis. Could this action have been done by a townie? A townie has no reason to make a big fuss about Radfield’s role if it is not an absolute indication of scum. After Radfield says that anyone who knows his role should understand why he did not follow his own plan, Ace accepts this explanation, yet still “wonders” why Radfield didn’t follow his plan. Soon after, Ace drops the issue. From Radfield’s explanation, it seems clear that Ace should’ve already known the answer before asking the question. Which means that the only reason Ace could have asked the question was to cause a commotion and spread doubt about Radfield. Ace makes no conclusions and provides no further insights. His reaction to Radfield’s “its obvious” explanation shows that he wasn’t being inquisitive or trying to figure things out, he is intentionally spreading doubt. The vote list also furthers his case against me. Note however, that none of this evidence singles me out as mafia. He trumpets the "kill people on the vote list" mantra to make people want to focus on killing me instead of trying to go for some other suspects. He accepts the vote list at face value, and frames any attack on non-vote list suspects as irrational and anti-town. However, as I and others have pointed out, there is no real reason why we should have utter faith in the vote list. Ace himself even admits that he believes that the possibility of having a framer/GF is high, yet continues to pressure people to focus on the vote list. By focusing on the vote list, Ace is attempting to get townies to conclude on their own that I am mafia, once again without providing any analysis. Here's how the psychology works: Ace emphasizes that 2/5 on the list are mafia and that it is irrational not to lynch off the list. This causes people to think to themselves, "2/5 are mafia, so who do I think are the most suspicious?" Given Ace's constant pushing that I am mafia, townies are likely to subconsciously come to the conclusion that I am mafia, especially if they don't have the time or the willpower to go back through the thread and do a careful analysis. In essence, Ace's reinforcement of the vote list guides the players to the conclusion that I am mafia without him having to provide analysis. Once I nuke Chezinu, Ace again picks at the weaknesses in my posts while ignoring how my actions run counter to what the mafia would want to do. He claims that I agreed that America was an anti-town role (I did not), that I am going against my day 1 plan (I did not have a day 1 plan), that if Chezinu flips mafia then I am bussing him (no reasoning), and that I am anti-town because I did not discuss the nuking. Yet later he declares that "Chezinu is the obvious scum for sure". Is not discussing the nuking anti-town? Well, by itself, not discussing the nuking can by no means be claimed to be a pro-town action, but it isn't necessarily anti-town either. I had many reasons for not discussing the nuke, including not wanting to be bought by a potential mafia politician. Not discussing the nuke doesn't say anything about my alignment one way or the other. Notice how Ace goes about attacking me here. He tries to pin me on ideas I didn't say, paints America as an anti-town role, and questions how not discussing the nuke is pro-town. What he basically does is picks out errors I make and questions how they are pro-town. Logically, yes, not discussing my nuke is not pro-town (although its not anti-town). Ace uses biased questions and frames them in a way that makes me look guilty, when in fact I am not. He emphasizes things that are easy to paint as anti-town actions, while at the same time ignoring contributions I have made that show I'm pro-town. This is exactly what mafia want to do. But mafia is a game where you cannot judge someone as mafia just by how many sketchy actions they make. Proper analysis considers all of a players actions and analyzes them in the context of “what makes this action an action that only can be made by mafia”. Ace has not considered this, and his case against me is flimsy at best. His points consist of minor “scumtells” such as being on the wrong lynch (twice now), finger pointing, picking America, and nuking without discussion. In conclusion, the evidence shows that Ace is undeniably mafia. His actions perfectly align with a mafia mindset, and he carries out actions that could not be made by a townie. In the Kavdragon lynch, Ace is hiding from the fact that he is a major contributor to the lynch, and with the Radfield day 2 commotion, Ace was intentionally spreading doubt. Ace has effectively planted the "Incognito is finger pointing and thus mafia" idea into people's heads. Once I flip town, he will get off the hook because everyone will believe the "fact" that Incognito was scummy, when in reality, Ace has merely fabricated this entire idea. This reminds me of the movie Inception, which, ironically, features Leonardo DiCaprio. I must applaud him for this cleverly thought out humor. Is that all? | ||
Ace
United States16096 Posts
May 21 2011 17:37 GMT
#1371
On May 21 2011 21:28 Radfield wrote: Well, this is unfortunate, but I've independently come to the same conclusions about Ace as Incog. Unfortunate because that is not the general consensus right now, and is probably an unpopular opinion. Incog obviously needs to be lynched though, as no case against Ace can progress with all the suspicion hanging on Incogs head. If Incog flips red(as many think will happen) then obviously Ace is prob clean. To be clear: I will not progress a case against Ace until Incog is dead and his alignment ascertained. First off, while I'd love to keep this to myself, the mafia should be able to deduce my role by now anyways, if they haven't, they're really bad. It also seems like there's some sort of ball of suspicion gathering towards me, so lets have this out. Clear your minds for a minute everyone, throw away any impressions of me, and really just look at the facts I'm presenting here. It's easy to skim read, but I really ask you to consider the following: Consider for a moment, that you are a role cop. Night one, you decide to investigate Radfield. You know he said he was going to take Vote Rigger(in his plan), and you're curious as to if he actually did. Night ends and you get you result back. Radfield did not draft Vote Rigger as he claimed he did, rather he drafted bulletproof. So, knowing this, what is your first thought? Is it: Hmmm, I wonder what possible reason Radfield drafted bulletproof for, he said he was going to draft Vote Rigger, I should post in the thread and put some pressure on him to see if I can discern his true reasons. OR, is your reaction: Oh, of course radfield took bulletproof. Given his history, it makes perfect sense. Obviously I should keep pretty mum about his role, as his role becomes useless if ever outted. For those who do not know my history, you might be confused as to why it would be obvious why I drafted bulletproof. I feel fairly confident in this claim: No other player on TL has been shot as often and as early as me. I have died Night One or Night Two in every single town-aligned game of mafia I have ever played(except one). At least half of those have been night one deaths. I have even been shot on Night Zero. Any player who know my history, would not be suspicious in the least when finding out I drafted bulletproof. Regardless of the fact that bulleproof is a poor role for mafia to have chosen, when there are a number of roles which appear town aligned, but also significantly help mafia. If I was mafia, WHY WOULDN"T I HAVE JUST TAKEN VOTE RIGGER?? It's an awesome role for a mafia to have, and would've give tme a huge amount of power down the stretch. Done with the role. Judge for yourself if Aces response to that information was strange, or if it was my role choice instead which was strange. Say what you want about my actions this game, but they have been transparent. Wondering why I voted a certain way? There's reasoning there, so go look. Wondering about anything I've said? It's been reasoned out and explained. I was wrong about KillerSOS, and frankly I think I was wrong about Barundar on Day 1(though you'll notice I have 180ed on him). Fact of the matter is, I was willing to ignore KillerSOS and let him live after his claim. Read the thread, my thought process was there. BUT, he claimed to have tracked Ace(really bad luck). If he had tracked practically anyone else but the one public visit we already knew took place, then he was in the clear. It really seemed like a bs claim at the time. Blech. Infinitestory, I'd love to hear why you think I'm scummy and I really hope it's not just because Foolishness and Ace have repeated it like 10 times each(effectively casting doubt on the analysis of a player known to have good reads). Is it because I am linked to Incognito in your eyes? Is it because I have been willing to stick my neck out and go to bat for certain players? Is it just a certain feeling you have? You guys really need to stop with the "does it make sense for Mafia to pick role X". We don't know that as no one has flipped Scum yet in this game. Secondly when I investigated you and you flipped BP I was surprised because you were one of, if not the main person discussing roles pre-draft. Whether or not your history shows that you always get shot it IS a valid point to bring it up. You think Scum that is unkillable at night doesn't become a problem? Especially if it's someone like you that the town would have a had time getting lynched by the day? A bulletproof Scum with pro-town cred then only has to worry about Day Killing roles. So yea, you're "Scum wouldn't pick X" spiel goes out the window. | ||
Ace
United States16096 Posts
May 21 2011 17:55 GMT
#1374
Either way it doesn't excuse what has happened the last 2 days. | ||
Ace
United States16096 Posts
May 22 2011 01:20 GMT
#1391
On May 22 2011 07:38 Incognito wrote: Show nested quote + On May 22 2011 06:53 Radfield wrote: Anyways, we have more pressing matters at hand. For what it's worth, here are my thoughts heading into night. If we are dead set on lynching Incog tomorrow, then we shouldn't bother to waste any actions on him tonight. GMarshal should get a bulletproof vest from Node. This opens them up to a suicide bomber, but we risk worse by simply encouraging everyone to protect him. Having node make the vest leaves whatever other protective roles we have open and able to defend other key players. Obviously alignment checks in the list, but with a possible framer/godframer out there it may make sense for DTs to go with their guts. tnkted is a good role check(bus driver) though there are other good targets as well. Protective Roles: Deconduo is for sure town in my eyes. I understand your argument ace(I am difficult to lynch), but it certainly doesnt apply to decon. Meapak_Ziphh is also almost surely town. I had a strong townie feeling on Dreamflower, and Meapak is independantly oozing green as well. Fishball is town partly because he's playing reverse mafia tactics. Coast and don't bother contributing at the beginning of the game, contribute more and more as the game goes on. A few other players are surely or very likely town as well(you can check out my list a few pages back), but I doubt will be particularly juicy for mafia to hit. At this point, another mislynch will be disastrous for us. I'm going to ask everyone to kindly read over my Ace analysis with the view of trying to find mafia. Obviously, if I'm mafia, I'm going to try to save myself. But at the same time, as a townie, I'm going to do that too. As a townie, I'm also going to try to find scum. So dismissing my analysis because you think I'm egotistical or I'm just trying to dupe you again isn't a very good move. Consider for yourselves whether Ace is truly mafia or not before deciding to lynch me. Radfield: going ahead and lynching me because lynching Ace would be an "unpopular" move is not very pro-town. If you agree that Ace is mafia, then you have to see what he's trying to do here. He is trying to get massive political support for both our lynches when there really is no evidence. It doesn't make sense to go ahead with lynching me if you see that Ace is mafia. You say that I "obviously need to be lynched, as no case against Ace can progress with all the suspicion on my head". Can you clarify this statement? I don't understand the reasoning as to why Ace is unlynchable until I'm dead. If Ace's behavior indicates that he is mafia, as I've shown, then we should lynch him, period. Our goal is to lynch mafia. It seems that Radfield, Dreamflower/Meapak, and I all agree that Ace is scum. Given yesterday's vote, I don't see how "public opinion" should scare us into making the wrong decision. It is clear that a lot of people are unsure about the issue. Once Ace flips red, all doubts about me should be cleared. Tomorrows lynch must be decided by analysis. Look at the case against Ace, and the case against me. External factors such as vote list checks or "town consensus" should not matter here. Analysis is the key. Ace's response to my accusation has once again been avoidance. Ace isn't showing his typical confidence right now, and he doesn't bother refuting my points. Ace's responses show that he's giving up the argument. He knows that the only way for him to escape this one is if he ensures that everyone else is distracted by my lynch. No confidence? hahahahahahahahahahahahaha You're Scum. It's night time. I have a gun. Why do I even need to respond to your post? hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha good lord you're funnier than George Carlin. | ||
Ace
United States16096 Posts
May 22 2011 03:50 GMT
#1415
GM is colorblind. | ||
Ace
United States16096 Posts
May 22 2011 17:59 GMT
#1474
Anyway I shot Incognito last night. I said I was going to do it like 10 times in the thread. Welp, shit happens :D *shrug* Like Caller has said I do think we're close to LYLO though, as only 1 scum has died and it was obvious scum. I still think Radfield aka Mr. Bulletproof is our best suspect. As for the GM list there are a few problems here. 1.) GM is still alive Why would the mafia want to keep any information roles alive? Even bumatlarge, a claimed (or fakeclaimed) watcher has been left alive. Assuming both are town then the Mafia have some way of screwing up information roles, otherwise there is no reason to leave them alive. 2.) As stated before, the players on the GM list have been purposely trimmed down This is actually a big deal. GM finds 2 scum on the list and Node along with Flamewheel are killed. Of course I shoot Incognito and there we have it. 3.) Barundar is dead and flipped town No one has talked about his role flip, but the more important fact here is that almost all the top picks have been eliminated along with the Inventor. Only Caller and Radfield have survived among the top 5, with GM being "explained" already. These 2 were not hit for a reason, and I'm inclined to believe that Radfield being alive is more suspicious as his Bulletproof is now a nice excuse for not being night hit. Also note that Barundar had 5 votes on him, flipped town, and 4 of those suspects are still alive. The only one that died was KillerSOS who got lynched due to a crap train. 4.) Back to Incognito If you think I'm scum because Incognito died scrub your brain. I've already explained that he was playing Scummy from the beginning but we're not going to rehash that. Read the thread if you want. 5.) Since it's almost, or surely LYLO either everyone should be role claiming now. Starting with Caller of course. I expect that no one is going to claim King Maker or bus driver so we'll be dealing with a few lies here. With no solid direction on who is Scum today, I think this is our best option. | ||
Ace
United States16096 Posts
May 22 2011 18:14 GMT
#1476
when are you going to role claim? | ||
Ace
United States16096 Posts
May 22 2011 18:50 GMT
#1483
Why are you over reacting so much. Notice I said you're suspicious and didn't even outright call you Scum. I didn't even vote for you. How did you glean so much extra information off of 1 line of posting? Stop panicking. | ||
Ace
United States16096 Posts
May 22 2011 18:56 GMT
#1485
@Wiggles: It is suspicious when taken in the right context. The other top picks have died so far, and neither Caller nor Radfield have been touched right? Then explain to me why. Also I didn't check anyone last night as I shot Incognito. @Radfield: Since you're such an expert explain how all of the Mafia kills made sense. | ||
Ace
United States16096 Posts
May 22 2011 19:21 GMT
#1489
If the Scum don't have a Roleblocker and didn't know Radfield was BP then why wasn't he hit? Get it now? Either they already knew he was BP or he's Scum with an alibi for not getting hit while all the other top picks except Caller did get hit. | ||
Ace
United States16096 Posts
May 22 2011 19:36 GMT
#1500
On May 23 2011 04:27 Mr. Wiggles wrote: Show nested quote + On May 23 2011 04:21 Ace wrote: ... If the Scum don't have a Roleblocker and didn't know Radfield was BP then why wasn't he hit? Get it now? Either they already knew he was BP or he's Scum with an alibi for not getting hit while all the other top picks except Caller did get hit. Uhhhh.... Scamp and FW, the top two on the list were shot night 1. On night 2, in major part thanks to you, it was publicly known that Radfield was BP. So, why would they shoot a BP townie on Night 2 and waste half their KP just to check he's BP? They shot the very top of the list night 1 (So not Radfield), after that they knew he was BP. So where's the inconsistency? And Node was killed Night 2 along with Barundar Flamewheel got a nuke bussed on to him What don't you understand here? There was a concentrated effort to eliminate the top of the list. Radfield wasn't shot NIGHT 1, before he was revealed to be Bullet proof. Are you misreading on purpose here? | ||
Ace
United States16096 Posts
May 22 2011 19:47 GMT
#1511
On May 23 2011 04:42 Mr. Wiggles wrote: Show nested quote + On May 23 2011 04:36 Ace wrote: On May 23 2011 04:27 Mr. Wiggles wrote: On May 23 2011 04:21 Ace wrote: ... If the Scum don't have a Roleblocker and didn't know Radfield was BP then why wasn't he hit? Get it now? Either they already knew he was BP or he's Scum with an alibi for not getting hit while all the other top picks except Caller did get hit. Uhhhh.... Scamp and FW, the top two on the list were shot night 1. On night 2, in major part thanks to you, it was publicly known that Radfield was BP. So, why would they shoot a BP townie on Night 2 and waste half their KP just to check he's BP? They shot the very top of the list night 1 (So not Radfield), after that they knew he was BP. So where's the inconsistency? And Node was killed Night 2 along with Barundar Flamewheel got a nuke bussed on to him What don't you understand here? There was a concentrated effort to eliminate the top of the list. Radfield wasn't shot NIGHT 1, before he was revealed to be Bullet proof. Are you misreading on purpose here? I'm not sure what you're arguing here, could you clarify? Show nested quote + Draft Order Results: 1. Flamewheel <--- Shot Night 1 2. Scamp <--- Shot Night 1 3. Caller 4. Barundar 5. Radfield They shot the two top slots on night 1, which makes sense. Can you explain why mafia would randomly shoot at Radfield when there was a claimed Chuiu Jack, and likely inventor in the two top slots? After Night 1, Radfield was known to be bullet-proof. Ok let's start over. In the beginning of the game Radfield comes up with a plan. It is later revealed he doesn't follow this plan by me. Myself and Fishball have a conversation about Radfield not following his own plan. Radfield starts complaining. My logic is that of the 2 night kills on Day 1, Radfield was conveniently NOT targeted. Whether the Mafia finds out he is BP on Day 2, he is once again not targeted right? My argument is that if he is Mafia he has a convenient alibi for not being targeted while everyone else in those top slots except Caller was - namely that everyone knew he was BP hence Mafia wouldn't hit him. But "no one" knew until I allegedly revealed his role. So for a full 2 game days he was not once popped. Why wasn't the nuke redirected towards him? Flamewheel as Chuiu Jack already claimed to use his Vet powers Night 1 to save himself. Why wouldn't the mafia nuke the bulletproof townie and just kill FW Night 2? | ||
Ace
United States16096 Posts
May 23 2011 20:19 GMT
#1580
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
May 23 2011 20:28 GMT
#1582
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
May 23 2011 23:33 GMT
#1598
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
May 23 2011 23:41 GMT
#1600
By the way I find it ironic that my pro-town plan is the one thats going to win the game. *crowns self MVP* | ||
Ace
United States16096 Posts
May 24 2011 00:02 GMT
#1603
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
May 24 2011 01:56 GMT
#1617
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
May 24 2011 02:05 GMT
#1621
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
May 24 2011 02:12 GMT
#1623
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
May 24 2011 07:26 GMT
#1637
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
May 24 2011 07:42 GMT
#1639
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
May 24 2011 18:29 GMT
#1656
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
May 24 2011 20:08 GMT
#1658
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
May 29 2011 13:14 GMT
#2037
1.) I picked Capitalist because with all the role checks if I got caught with Role blocker that was far worse. We also had no way to stop all the information roles out there so we were better off with roles that if checked were plausible but could also kill. Also please remember WHERE I was on the draft order. I had to pick a role that I figured would fall all the way down. It's nice to say I should have picked Vigi or GF but let's be realistic here. The Mafia picks worked like a charm all the way until the information roles came through. No amount of OP Scum roles would have stopped that. Everyone played their roles well. Chezinu wasn't saved by a bus because tnkted wasn't around. Really just bad luck. 2.) We didn't coordinate number picks. I told everyone just do whatever as with 1 KP and 9,000 info roles we were going to have a hard time winning this. 3.) I suggested TWO KP minimum for Scum. There were just so many ridiculous Town roles that the information flow would be impossible to stop. I really don't understand why you mods keep doing this but STOP NERFING THE SCUM TEAM. 5 or 6 scum vs 7 information roles. Even with a traitor, which doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things we were screwed with 1 KP. It took an extraordinary amount of planning and careful play to get where we were. The town undid everything in 1 night and couldn't lose once Node's invention popped. Someone should have realized that Scum has no way of stopping ALL the information roles. 4.) The Town played like shit. The first 3 days were just me toying around with the town and setting up Radfield and Incognito for big falls later on. The town had NO CHANCE what so ever to lynch any scum. None. If you were on Mafia IRC and saw the things I was saying before they actually happened you'd know how badly the town was losing. This was a flawless Scum team win. 5.) Our mole - we already had 1 KP. Why did we have to wait 3 days for the mole to convert? Needless to say the Mafia 2 DT was the only reason the town won the game. Next time if this is run give the mole conversion on Day 2. 6.) Townies really really really need to stop this ridiculous behavior of posting "pro-town lists" on the first day of the game. Also stop this stupid thing about meta. 90% of you don't understand what it is. Just because a guy acts different from a game he played before it doesn't make him suspicious. Just incredibly WASTEFUL posts. These posts were one of the reasons no one could find scum - 20 people with pro-town lists on Day 1 and Day 2 means 20 people are clueless and talking about nothing. 7.) STOP the Post By Post Analysis. Seriously no one reads it because chances are YOU ARE WRONG. Why? Because you're nitpicking. There were a few posts in the game that correctly broke down a scum motive and they got ignored. Then there were these silly posts where people picked out every damn post a guy made, made some stuff up, and concluded they are scum. STOP IT. It's silly and it makes the game so much easier for scum. Not to mention it makes you so easy to lynch because once I know where you reads are I just dig in later because you're all over the place. 8.) Town was bad. Just wanted to remind you once again. 9.) Good job to the Scum team. The town never had a lead on anyone and was actually about to be GG'd until GM's role claim + the Night 2 and 3 shenanigans. Inventor + Copy Cat + Bad Santa + Detectives. No way anyone can seriously believe the Town played better than the Scum team this game. Absolute destruction. On May 29 2011 16:07 Kavdragon wrote: Show nested quote + On May 29 2011 13:49 Incognito wrote: I don't get why my Ace analysis was pretty much ignored after I got shot. I really thought that was a good analysis, as well as a nice instructional guide on good mafia thread control, but oh well. To those who lynched me day one: You fail at meta reads. The biggest thing to pull from my town meta is that I make lots of mistakes. And thats exactly why you got lynched. This isn't a meta problem - it's just you making mistakes. The town would be foolish to say "oh its just the way Kavdragon plays, let him get a pass". When you screw up chances are you get lynched if the town is playing correctly. | ||
Ace
United States16096 Posts
May 29 2011 13:43 GMT
#2040
On May 29 2011 22:37 bumatlarge wrote: Agree with most of the stuff Ace, but Kav's thing was ridiculous. People called him out for being too pro-town. Nothing else. If you look back, everyone called him out for trying too hard, or some other shit. Again not Kav's fault, it was bad town's fault. I agree town was bad, we were doing awful first 2 days and won with power roles. The chaoser, Barundar and KillerSOS wagons were all so damn ridiculous and they weren't even scum driven. I didn't even VOTE on the Kav wagon and it still happened to my amazement. But Kav made many mistakes. Somehow, some way even with the Kav/Barundar/Incog wagons going on no one sat down and looked back at how they were formed. The only person to bring it up later was Incognito iirc when he said I was pushing the wagon and then didn't even vote for Kav while also undermining him. Of course it got ignored. | ||
Ace
United States16096 Posts
May 29 2011 19:13 GMT
#2056
On May 30 2011 01:49 Kavdragon wrote: Show nested quote + On May 30 2011 01:45 Kurumi wrote: On May 30 2011 01:42 Kavdragon wrote: On May 29 2011 22:14 Ace wrote: On May 29 2011 16:07 Kavdragon wrote: On May 29 2011 13:49 Incognito wrote: I don't get why my Ace analysis was pretty much ignored after I got shot. I really thought that was a good analysis, as well as a nice instructional guide on good mafia thread control, but oh well. To those who lynched me day one: You fail at meta reads. The biggest thing to pull from my town meta is that I make lots of mistakes. And thats exactly why you got lynched. This isn't a meta problem - it's just you making mistakes. The town would be foolish to say "oh its just the way Kavdragon plays, let him get a pass". When you screw up chances are you get lynched if the town is playing correctly. I never said in there that my play was something that should have kept me from being lynched, but people were pushing me because of meta reasons, and they missed the biggest point from my meta. I agree that the mistakes I made were what lead to my lynch, but the people pushing for my lynch because of my meta were getting my meta wrong. Kurumi does not understand because every sentence has "meta" in it ;u; Meta is a players background in the game. If i know that Ace likes to lurk in the shadows as scum, but comes out and is really vocal as a townie in all his past games, then I can compare that play to this current game and say "Oh, he's lurking. His meta tells me that he is scum" (fictitious example ^^) Kitaman: -_- I've learned my lesson. I'll be VI every game from now on. This is what I mean though. That's not always a good read on someone and is what led to the Day 1 and 2 shenanigans. Even if some of the Townies did have a solid read and wanted to build a case they had to cut through 50 posts of "he does this as x because I've seen it before" and that isn't a good thing. Then again if someone is lurking well, that's what Vigilantes are for. @dreamflower: Indeed I do. I was just like forget it, don't kill dreamflower because I'm sure one of us is going with her to the grave. @meapak: Not pissed, but having to go through what we did and then to see posts about our role picks or "strategy" but also no one commenting on what was going on before Day 3 is annoying. There was a lot of misdirection those first 2 days that most people still won't be able to figure out. On May 29 2011 23:15 Radfield wrote: Scum team played fine, but you made some errors as well. Yes you were winning after Night 2, but so is every scum team with any amount of skill. Show nested quote + The town never had a lead on anyone and was actually about to be GG'd until GM's role claim + the Night 2 and 3 shenanigans. Inventor + Copy Cat + Bad Santa + Detectives. Chez was already dead. Tnkted was caught once the bus driver role went public. You outted yourself with your overpressing of my role, even had Bum not shot you, you were up for lynching the next day(or Caller). Caller and Kurumi were fairly well hidden. *The M2DT was huge, yet you didn't take a framing role or a roleblocker or assasin. *There were a massive amount of investigative roles up for grabs, but you didn't take a godfather role *You left GM alive. A tough call, but you should have bombed him. *Kurumi suicided when he was well hidden *You shot Incog, which put mud on yourself and allowed the town to refocus. Shooting Incog also narrowed down the Kavdragon lynch list, virtually outting Caller when he was well hidden. Incog dying was a turning point for the town(though really the police radio was the turning point). Anyways, many of your points are valid though, and we relied heavily on the list-checks(mind you, of course we would, they are very OP), though other than NKVD, the other info roles were largely useless/underused. Town played as good as they needed to in a setup that ended up favoring them, mafia played well in a losing effort though. I was actually talking about right before Chezinu died. At that point we were on our way to an overwhelming victory. I'm not sure you remember but the lynch chaoser nonsense was still going strong, I had a solid alibi for shooting Incognito and you were already out of the picture. I purposely harassed you and Incognito all game not only because you were on the wrong track, but also so no one would have enough time to look around and see what the other Scum were doing. Kurumi wanted to blow himself up since Day 1. I literally think he was strapped to a chair trying to restrain himself. He was well hidden but at that point we had to get rid of Parity Cop. Once again, there are only FIVE of us and 1 KP. We can't take assassin without a role checking power to hit someone so why would we go for it? Remember a role check against that role means we're almost surely lynched. At best taking Godfather would have gotten us out of the list checking but you must also remember that townies picked "Mafia" roles also - Barundar TOOK one of the GF picks. We could have been screwed going for that as well. When I shot Incog there was no mud anywhere for me. I shot him with the credibility I set myself up for days in advance. When Incognito died the Town was still lost. Re-read the thread. I was safe because no one had a case against me and there weren't any votes my way. Caller was still under scrutiny but the discussion of tampered lists kept him alive. Do understand we trimmed that list because we had to try and kill Inventor, Copy Cat and any information roles. The town was never, ever on the right track to finding Caller as Scum even with all of that. We didn't kill people because they were correct about anything, we killed them because of their role. We had confidence that no one would make any credible arguments or have enough persuasive power to sway the town vs any Scum. And we were right. | ||
Ace
United States16096 Posts
May 31 2011 22:14 GMT
#2073
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
June 11 2011 13:55 GMT
#2077
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GSL Code S
ESL Pro Tour
ESL Pro Tour
ESL Pro Tour
ESL Pro Tour
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ESL Pro Tour
Hatchery Cup
BSL
ESL Pro Tour
Sparkling Tuna Cup
ESL Pro Tour
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