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TL Mafia XLIV
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it's always 13:37 PAT. | ||
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DB is scum. | ||
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##Vote DropBear | ||
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It's not pressure, I already told you DB is scum. | ||
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On August 19 2011 19:29 Varpulis wrote: could you give me a reason to believe you? press filter and read his posts. | ||
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ok let's hang DB first. | ||
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it's not random when it's pointed at scum. | ||
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Why not just bandwagon everything I say? that's a good plan. Go read DB's first post in PTP2 where he was town. He's like 1000 trillion times more careful and vague in these opening posts than last time. Here's his PTP2 opening post for comparison: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=10466682 He's careful to just give advice that cannot possibly rub anyone the wrong way. SCUM SCUM SCUM SCUM SCUM | ||
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Also, sheeping my votes is generally a good idea. | ||
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But dropbear is an enemy, he must die. | ||
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On August 20 2011 01:14 Vain wrote: What, yeah when we know your not mafia. And what about dropbears play in real time mafia. His play was vastly different then now. one would think he's trying to improve! too bad it's transparent as fuck. | ||
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On August 20 2011 01:40 RayzorFlash wrote: Your post seemed like obvious scum to me, the scummiest post so far, and I will most likely be away for the rest of the day so I put in a vote against you... I'll check back later and see if I have to change it, but I doubt if I will :p how about you vote the crazy australian with a cricket bat instead? | ||
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On August 20 2011 01:47 Curu wrote: youngminii Palmar why is DB scum over Sevyrn? He made a stupid policy post in Werewolves too and he was a Medic. read both posts. notice the different attitude. He's calling shit stupid and has balls in werewolf and ptp2. He's being super-duper cautious this time around. READ THEM AGAIN NEMESIS, READ THEM | ||
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On August 20 2011 01:59 chaoser wrote: 3) What do you think about Palmer? I think he's awesome. | ||
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Hi, you're scum. Your first post includes a question to the mods, some random advice that everyone already knows. I think you're just making blanket statements to hide the fact that you rolled red. And of course Nard's post is hella scummy if you flip town, it means he's trying to set me up as a follow up lynch, which is potentially really good for mafia. But I'm not sure we have to worry about that, you're the most scummy one in the thread at the moment, and I propose we investigate you with a piece of rope around your neck. | ||
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On August 20 2011 03:27 DropBear wrote: ??? Cmon man, you're a better player than this. It's the first post of the game, what do you want from me a 100 page dossier on each member of the Mafia team? I was attempting to generate discussion by bringing up how we force lynches to occur. Your first post didn't contribute anything. Should I be tunneling you for it? Of course not. You really don't seem to like my post. Do you prefer this? Or this? Or this? hahahaa you're so scummy man. "But look at that guy, or that guy". Nah, I aint buying it, I wanna hang you tonight. I wanted an honest post from you, not some ridiculous attempt at looking pro-town. The last thing your openers looked like were honesty. | ||
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On August 20 2011 03:44 DropBear wrote: I am trying to get things moving, get discussion started. The posts I quoted here are prime example s of why this needs to be done, noone is doing ANYTHING. In no way am I suggesting that they are Mafia, nor was it implied when I quoted them to you. What do you mean by honesty? I didn't say anything that could potentially have been a lie? I asked questions and made suggestions, they aren't truthful or not. This makes no sense??? I don't understand your problem with me Palmar. If you are so quick to make up your mind off one post, an introduction to the game, then I sure as hell hope GMarshal didn't give you a gun. Even better. | ||
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On August 20 2011 03:47 BrownBear wrote: Ok, either you have epic tunnelvision or you're actively trying to stop discussion right now. Guess which one. Also, you seem to be advocating lynching lurkers quite heavily. Care to elaborate on that? | ||
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On August 20 2011 03:35 BrownBear wrote: Posts like this make me sad. Put some effort into the game. Palmar/DropBear, I'm starting to believe at least one of you isn't, however this could just as easily be two townies chest-pounding day 1, at which point mafia just sits back and watches the fireworks as one or both get lynched, town wastes time, and they don't have to do jack shit. Point being, Palmar, we know you want us to lynch DropBear. DropBear, we know you want us to not lynch you. Arguing about it just takes up space. So, DropBear, if you want us to not lynch you, name someone who you think would be a better lynch target, and why. If no better alternative presents itself, I'll vote for you over a no-lynch, and you're the only person really with votes currently on you, so I highly recommend giving us some reasons why your neck should be spared. And Palmar... you keep making statements like "nard's totally setting me up he's scum" or "dropbear's scum lets investigate by lynching him" without ANY backup. "Your first post was a question to mods ppl know YOU MUST BE COVERING YOUR TRACKS OMG MAFIA" does not constitute evidence. If DropBear's gonna be active and making plans, I'm inclined to NOT lynch him day 1, because it means one less inactive jackass dragging us down. Plus, the more active he is, the sooner he'll slip up if he actually is scum. Of course, lynching is preferable to no-lynching in 99.99% of cases, so I'll vote for him in the end if nobody else comes forth. But I want to see a better case from you regardless. Finally, DB's plan: in a perfect world, it'd be great, but I don't think an unofficial mayor will have the power necessary to break ties of more than one vote. Also, how do we know this mayor will be pro-town? How do we know you are pro-town? How do we know if ANYONE'S pro-town at this point? We don't really, so I think an unofficial "mayor" will just serve to clog the thread further, will draw med-protects away from people who really need them like blues, and will end up not benefitting town in any major way. I just want to point out I now think Brownbear is scum too. | ||
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On August 20 2011 03:53 BrownBear wrote: I don't think I have... please quote where you're getting that from. The only thing I can think of is in my large post, where I said if DB is gonna be active I'm less inclined to lynch him. This means I'm less inclined to lynch DB right now, NOT that I'm "heavily advocating lynching a lurker". Please don't put words into my mouth. Here you go: On August 20 2011 03:35 BrownBear wrote: If DropBear's gonna be active and making plans, I'm inclined to NOT lynch him day 1, because it means one less inactive jackass dragging us down. Plus, the more active he is, the sooner he'll slip up if he actually is scum. Of course, lynching is preferable to no-lynching in 99.99% of cases, so I'll vote for him in the end if nobody else comes forth. Well, I read that as any scummy asshole with a plan is going to get a free bye on day 1, because you want to lynch someone inactive? Or does, the free pass on making plans and blanket statements to avoid the lynch only extend to a specific pool of people? | ||
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"life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery" By the way, BrownBear is the person I want dead today. I'm not sure how to interpret what Foolishness is saying, but at least he's right. | ||
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On August 20 2011 19:26 Pyo wrote: woah, woah, woah... BrownBear? I thought you wanted DropBear dead? yeah, I changed my mind. | ||
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BrownBear So, I decided to try a new tactic this game. Most towns spend day one arguing casually about policies and then lynch a scummy lurker. This is sometimes effective, sometimes kind of weird. This game I decided to just tear up the thread with some super-awesome tunneling on the first scummy fucker I found, and read responses by other people. There are two people who stick out to me as scummy from their reactions to my tunneling. Namely Sevryn and BrownBear. I feel more confident BrownBear is the scum of the two. There are quite a few things in BrownBear's logic that really scare me. First off, let's take a look at the post that initially raised my suspicions of him: On August 20 2011 03:35 BrownBear wrote: Posts like this make me sad. Put some effort into the game. Palmar/DropBear, I'm starting to believe at least one of you isn't, however this could just as easily be two townies chest-pounding day 1, at which point mafia just sits back and watches the fireworks as one or both get lynched, town wastes time, and they don't have to do jack shit. Point being, Palmar, we know you want us to lynch DropBear. DropBear, we know you want us to not lynch you. Arguing about it just takes up space. So, DropBear, if you want us to not lynch you, name someone who you think would be a better lynch target, and why. If no better alternative presents itself, I'll vote for you over a no-lynch, and you're the only person really with votes currently on you, so I highly recommend giving us some reasons why your neck should be spared. And Palmar... you keep making statements like "nard's totally setting me up he's scum" or "dropbear's scum lets investigate by lynching him" without ANY backup. "Your first post was a question to mods ppl know YOU MUST BE COVERING YOUR TRACKS OMG MAFIA" does not constitute evidence. If DropBear's gonna be active and making plans, I'm inclined to NOT lynch him day 1, because it means one less inactive jackass dragging us down. Plus, the more active he is, the sooner he'll slip up if he actually is scum. Of course, lynching is preferable to no-lynching in 99.99% of cases, so I'll vote for him in the end if nobody else comes forth. But I want to see a better case from you regardless. Finally, DB's plan: in a perfect world, it'd be great, but I don't think an unofficial mayor will have the power necessary to break ties of more than one vote. Also, how do we know this mayor will be pro-town? How do we know you are pro-town? How do we know if ANYONE'S pro-town at this point? We don't really, so I think an unofficial "mayor" will just serve to clog the thread further, will draw med-protects away from people who really need them like blues, and will end up not benefitting town in any major way. I immediately called him out on the scum logic in his posts. I pointed out that one wouldn't have to make a big stretch to understand the bolded sentence as a free pass to anyone who was being active in the thread. Which conveniently enough also clears BB of any suspicion. He also mentions the possibility of two townies just shouting at each other. The reason this jumps so much out to me is that I used exactly the same logic as scum on day 1 in SNMMII as scum. I pointed out that two loudmouths were probably just townies shouting at each other and then I suggested that the real threat are the inactive people. Deflecting lynches onto inactives is mafia's favorite way of playing day 1. BrownBear's defense of this, is that I'm twisting his words. But can anyone honestly says he understands the bolded sentence in any other way than BrownBear wants to kill off inactive people over people who are active, because the active people will reveal themselves as scum at some point. Next post, after demanding contribution from me: On August 20 2011 06:52 BrownBear wrote: I asked for something of substance and this is what I got? Oh, you. Ok, something you've pulled out of my reasoning that really just wasn't there. You're saying I want to lynch someone inactive. Not necessarily true. Implied, maybe, but NOT what I said. Again, you really need to stop putting words in people's mouths. What I said there, and what anyone who took 5 seconds to think rationally got out of that sentence before you started spewing shit all over it, is that regardless of what I think about DropBear's alignment (and for the record, I think he's more green than not. Scummy, possibly, but not confirmed scum), I want to see people post more. We're on only 17 pages halfway through the first day, which is kind of sad. I want more content. DropBear's providing it. I'm for lynching any of the semi-actives - that is, the people who are just contributing one liners and sheeping along to do the bare minimum to fly under the radar. Inactives = people who haven't noticed the game's started yet, people in different time zones who are sleeping, or people who don't care about the game. No reason wasting a vote on them - modkills will get them soon enough. The real area where mafia are probably lurking are the semi-actives - the guys who have posted a few times to be able to say "hey, I was here", but haven't contributed anything of substance or worth to the discussion. That doesn't include DropBear right now. At the very least, he's provoking discussion both about his silly fake-mayor plan, and about whether or not he's red. He's defending himself and providing some alternate ideas. (Although, DropBear, "I will do so if it becomes necessary"? Really? That's not doing you any favors, bro). Right now, my list of semi-actives include: wherebugsgo, hiro protagonist, Foolishness, and JeeJee (when you read his posts, they don't contribute nearly as much as they do ask questions that go unanswered). I'm open to adding more to that list tho. So let's start talking about those guys! JeeJee is the most suspicious to me right now: He's posted the most, but I see not all that much in his posts... it looks to me as though he's trying to post while not adding anything of value to town discussion. Just a gut feeling, but I still feel a lot better about lynching him than I do DropBear. Anyway, long story short: You read things out of my post that didn't exist, those things are the entire basis of your case against me, your case against me sucks, gg, try harder. ##Vote: JeeJee The first sentence is interesting. He makes a point that he did not say what I called him out for, yet he implied it? What's the difference? The mindset he's working in is the same. I ask that everyone reads the post above carefully, and preferably often. Look at what he's saying. He's basically throwing a one-line accusation towards JeeJee in an attempt to divert the discussion off himself and DropBear. The bolded sentence is another one of interest. I don't actually understand how he's going to scumhunt if he actively states that "mafia is amongst the semi-actives". Well sherlock, if you tell us that you're going for semi-active people, won't the mafia just stop being semi-active? And note that he himself is definitely not amongst the semi-actives, so he cannot be mafia, by his theory. This case against JeeJee is basically just a throw-away case, BB knows well enough that JeeJee is not going to get lynched based on this case, and he's happy to look like he's not supporting a town lynch while throwing an off-vote on some random "semi-active". On August 20 2011 09:55 BrownBear wrote: It's cute that you tell everyone I'm wrong without explaining exactly why I'm wrong. lern2backupyouraccusations Interesting that he calls out for other people to back up their accusations, yet your entire case against JeeJee is: So let's start talking about those guys! JeeJee is the most suspicious to me right now: He's posted the most, but I see not all that much in his posts... it looks to me as though he's trying to post while not adding anything of value to town discussion. Just a gut feeling, but I still feel a lot better about lynching him than I do DropBear. Re-read his posts. Look at them from the point of view he is scum, understand what motivations he might have for posting like this if he's town. I think we have a great lynch candidate here town. BrownBear is scum ##Vote BrownBear | ||
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On August 20 2011 22:05 Erandorr wrote: No Palmar, I do not want to blame you excusivly , but look at what this thread is looking like right now. You want either DB or BB dead depending on who is disagreeing with you more (and I do not think either of them are completely certainly Scum) Other then that , right now basicly everyone seems to have their target but I am actually getting a bit scared that we will not get our shit together until the first night is there. no worries, we will. If you think I'm scum, vote for me, if not, go hunt scum instead of posting passively about your concerns for town safety. | ||
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On August 20 2011 22:38 Jackal58 wrote: Anybody that disagrees with Palmar is scum. And I'm really hoping your advice to not do PBP was a joke. it's so obvious, yet people keep disagreeing with me. | ||
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On August 20 2011 23:38 Navillus wrote: Last, to palmar, you're suspicious of Brownbear for trying to deflect a lynch, that would naturally imply that the person he's deflecting the lynch from would also be scum, are you still convinced that DB is scum? I think he very well may be. But I think BB has much more damning evidence in the thread than DB, so it makes more sense to lynch him. | ||
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On August 20 2011 23:38 chaos13 wrote: We're gonna derp ourselves into a useless no-lynch today if this keeps up. This thread is a mess. I'm not sure on who thinks what of who any more because things are so muddled up with accusations everywhere and a complete lack of clarity in communication. Again, who started this? Palmar. Let's take a brief look at the sevryn bandwagon. Did it build up quickly? Has there been any noticeable defense that appears flimsy or false or nervous? I don't think he's scum. Jackal, who do you think is mafia and why? I don't think you're actually this bad at this game, so you might quite possibly be scum. The thread has a pretty clear focus at the moment, but you're trying to spin it off as it's some randomness to try and discredit me. If you were town, you'd recognize what I have done, but I don't think you are. | ||
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On August 20 2011 23:41 Kurumi wrote: I dislike Palmar's random fingerpointing and not dedicating his vote to any of the candidates presented, why?. This is not promoting pro-town atmosphere, though he made a case on BrownBear. I think Palmar would be a good DT check or just person to look at tomorrow. I think we should lynch Navillus. He jumped on quick Palmar bandwagon with shoddy reasoning ("he is shouting kill DropBear"). Let's recap what Navillus have done: -say I am trolling / will troll / am useless / anti-town in the first hours of the game all over again -vote for me just because of that -unvote me without any reason (besides "You started to contribute") -tried to coordinate blues (Town KP should shoot lurkers, really good deal for Mafia, because hatters will have useless bombs planted and vigis will waste their only one shot they have) -disappeared during the most active time of the day. ##vote Navillus I'll see what Sevryn has done. Palmar is not good lynch today, I feel his lynch is a bit Kavdragon-ish from PYPI I've played. Re-read the case on BB please. Navillus is not the best lynch we have today. | ||
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You will notice that a ton of people called me out for having little reasoning behind the accusations. It's only the manner in which BB did so that leads me to believe he's scum. | ||
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On August 21 2011 01:09 Curu wrote: Why not take a look at the way some people AGREED with you? You probably didn't believe the case yourself, so those agreeing for awful reasons would seem more suspicious. I do still think hanging DropBear is a good idea. We can only hang one person tonight, and I think that person should be BB. | ||
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On August 21 2011 01:16 Curu wrote: You admitted yourself you have little reasoning behind the accusations, but now it's more scummy for people to disagree with your little reasoning than for people to agree for even worse reasons? Woah woah, where did I say I had little reasoning? I said I jumped the first scummy fucker I found. That means I had a better reason to believe he was scum than anyone else in the thread at that point. I still think there's very good chances of DB flipping scum, but I think our chances are better with BB. I still think that meta argument is quite valid. But there is more to go on with BrownBear. I don't think agreeing with me is at all scummy just for the sake of agreeing with me. Again, its how people say things, not what they say. But really, it's not my methodology we should be discussing, but much rather who we think is scum. | ||
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On August 21 2011 01:23 BrownBear wrote: Lol Palmar? Keep trying to twist my words bro, it's getting you nowhere. You have no credibility with town right now, and you really only have yourself to blame. Just give it up. Your crusade against bears has failed. Switching my vote to Sevryn because that deadline's looming, and he's got the most votes right now. I'm not giving it up when I think I'm right. | ||
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On August 21 2011 01:38 BrownBear wrote: Tunnelling is your main weakness, dude. You need to learn to occasionally think outside the box. Is it your firm belief that Sevryn will flip red? | ||
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Do you believe that he will flip scum Erandorr, are you completely sure he's red? | ||
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I'm pretty amazed that you don't see this, because normally your town play is relatively solid and your reads good. | ||
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On August 21 2011 02:35 Curu wrote: I see Sevyrn being scummy as all hell. His past games as Town he's looked scummy too, but in a different way. He's not afraid to put his vote on someone and keep it there unless someone brings up a better case against someone else. He defends his vote and attacks people who call his vote a sheep or bandwagon (him vs Lucidity in Kurumi's game). Here he's retracted his vote altogether, not made enemies with anyone calling him out for scuminess and disappeared forever. How do you not see this? Do you not find it surprising that there are no alternative lynches? Do you think the scum team is full out bussing him? | ||
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On August 21 2011 03:15 BrownBear wrote: Where he states Sevryn is an alright lynch. I still want elaboration on that point. The point I made to Curu is the biggest factor, if he is mafia this is a full out day 1 bus. And then it's just gut-instinct. | ||
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He's like got an actual analysis against him! How about that? | ||
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On August 21 2011 05:44 Jackal58 wrote: Which choice is that? I'm unvoting Sevryn. As I previously stated he has not set off any bells with what he had posted but by his disappearance. How much time is remaining? btw, you need to re-read my posts assuming I'm not scum, and then realize I'm right. | ||
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On August 21 2011 07:03 Jackal58 wrote: You're totally down with lynching everybody. nah, I maintain a list of people I'm fine with lynching. BrownBear DropBear Chaos13 RayzorFlash | ||
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On August 21 2011 07:55 chaos13 wrote: By now you should know that if you feel like lynching me, I'm probably town :p But seriously, your only reason for being okay with lynching me is because I think you're scum. That is a textbook OMGUS, and I have no idea why everyone seems to think you're so town. You're the reason this thread has been so completely derailed already. Nah, the reason I want to lynch you is because you are one who really should appreciate and recognize what I've done to make this thread into proper discussion and draw out comments from people. The fact that you do not recognize this, and in fact you're trying to make it sound exactly the other way, that I have somehow created a bad atmosphere for scumhunting, is especially damning for someone who puts as high value in thread control as you do. | ||
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On August 21 2011 07:46 xtfftc wrote: Would you pick a non-lynch instead of lynching Sevryn? No, if you guys seriously can't be reasoned with, I will get him hanging just for the information, or the off-chance I'm terribly wrong. | ||
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Again, sorry I couldn't push the thread in the right direction, I'll take the blame for it when sevryn flips town. ##Unvote ##Vote Sevryn | ||
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1. BrownBear 2. BrownBear 3. Chaos13 4. DropBear 5. RayzorFlash 6. Mig 7. Any lurker you fancy. | ||
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It's pretty obvious to anyone that has actually read the thread I'm town. Welcome btw. | ||
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god you're terrible. | ||
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What happened here on day 1, is that someone presented something I consider a weak case and bad arguments against a player I was 99.8% sure was town (hence my chances post!). I then presented a case against someone I'm pretty damn sure is mafia, yet I did not successfully push my case. Now to me this means I failed terribly at doing my job on day 1, and I'm just ridiculously mad at myself for letting mafia run the thread like that. Not being able to push the lynch away from someone I knew would flip townie, is the ultimate failure in my mind. If BrownBear actually flips scum, I'll be even madder at myself, if he flips town, I'll feel a bit better, I just don't think he will. Basically, I let someone with bad reasoning outargue me, which means something is wrong and I need to take a step back for a while. I don't mind being wrong or right, I do mind being unable to do my job. Thing is, what I want to do now is rehash my entire strategy and approach, because clearly this is bad. But if I do that I'll just be lurking through the game. If GM finds a replacement, it's unfair to you guys that I'm being useless. | ||
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On August 22 2011 02:57 Jackal58 wrote: Quit whining and get back on your horse. Derp, you're right. Sorry about flipping out a bit, I'm stupidly competetive and I take myself failing very seriously. Giving up is worse than failing. Let's do this. | ||
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On August 22 2011 03:39 chaos13 wrote: I point out your scumminess and suddenly I'm scum, and apparently should be vigi hit. Viscera points out your scumminess and he's town. HMMMMMMM what is the reason you refuse to act your normal, critical self? surely you understand that this is not based on something as simple as you want to make it look like. i dont give a shit what people do, its how they do it that matters. are you intentionally not putting any thought into this game, or have you simply not put in the time to read it yet? | ||
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I just re-read the entire thing since I cast my vote on sevryn last night, I'm really glad so many townies realized that the lynch was a bad one. I also re-read Rayzor's posts, and I don't think he is scum. The lynch is 2am my time and 4am CET, so if switches are to happen they need to be initiated sooner. | ||
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On August 22 2011 18:08 Kurumi wrote: start being useful same goes to me, brb re-reading the thread. I think I've made my opinions pretty damn clear, but I've made some fundamental mistakes this game that stop town from considering my opinions as valid. I think I have laid down the most detailed analysis of someone in the thread that isn't completely based on meta, and I stand by my conclusions in that one. I'm fine with lynching Mig actually, there are multiple mafia in this game, and unlike sevryn I'd actually give him a 50% chance of flipping red. I'm much more convinced BB is scum though. I don't know Chaoser's meta so the argument made against him may therefore look weaker to me than it should. Hopefully others who know him will correctly push his lynch if they're right. Just to rehash, this remains my opinion: On August 20 2011 22:20 Palmar wrote: BrownBear So, I decided to try a new tactic this game. Most towns spend day one arguing casually about policies and then lynch a scummy lurker. This is sometimes effective, sometimes kind of weird. This game I decided to just tear up the thread with some super-awesome tunneling on the first scummy fucker I found, and read responses by other people. There are two people who stick out to me as scummy from their reactions to my tunneling. Namely Sevryn and BrownBear. I feel more confident BrownBear is the scum of the two. There are quite a few things in BrownBear's logic that really scare me. First off, let's take a look at the post that initially raised my suspicions of him: I immediately called him out on the scum logic in his posts. I pointed out that one wouldn't have to make a big stretch to understand the bolded sentence as a free pass to anyone who was being active in the thread. Which conveniently enough also clears BB of any suspicion. He also mentions the possibility of two townies just shouting at each other. The reason this jumps so much out to me is that I used exactly the same logic as scum on day 1 in SNMMII as scum. I pointed out that two loudmouths were probably just townies shouting at each other and then I suggested that the real threat are the inactive people. Deflecting lynches onto inactives is mafia's favorite way of playing day 1. BrownBear's defense of this, is that I'm twisting his words. But can anyone honestly says he understands the bolded sentence in any other way than BrownBear wants to kill off inactive people over people who are active, because the active people will reveal themselves as scum at some point. Next post, after demanding contribution from me: The first sentence is interesting. He makes a point that he did not say what I called him out for, yet he implied it? What's the difference? The mindset he's working in is the same. I ask that everyone reads the post above carefully, and preferably often. Look at what he's saying. He's basically throwing a one-line accusation towards JeeJee in an attempt to divert the discussion off himself and DropBear. The bolded sentence is another one of interest. I don't actually understand how he's going to scumhunt if he actively states that "mafia is amongst the semi-actives". Well sherlock, if you tell us that you're going for semi-active people, won't the mafia just stop being semi-active? And note that he himself is definitely not amongst the semi-actives, so he cannot be mafia, by his theory. This case against JeeJee is basically just a throw-away case, BB knows well enough that JeeJee is not going to get lynched based on this case, and he's happy to look like he's not supporting a town lynch while throwing an off-vote on some random "semi-active". Interesting that he calls out for other people to back up their accusations, yet your entire case against JeeJee is: Re-read his posts. Look at them from the point of view he is scum, understand what motivations he might have for posting like this if he's town. I think we have a great lynch candidate here town. BrownBear is scum ##Vote BrownBear | ||
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On August 22 2011 18:23 Mig wrote: You know palmar you could actually put the effort in to look at chaoser's past games, I even linked 39 earlier. Instead of just relying on other people to form your opinion for you. I can only push one lynch target today. | ||
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Also, I don't take orders from scum chaos13. | ||
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I still think we should just lynch BB today. | ||
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But if we assume he's telling the truth, I very much doubt he'd have the balls as mafia to post the way he's done, so I'd like to remove him from the discussion as of now. | ||
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First thing's first. Do you have any major suspicions. If it's up to you and you only, whom would you lynch today? | ||
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First off, after re-reading everything you've posted I find it hard to believe you are scum because of this little thing here, from the post where you originally voted for me: On August 20 2011 10:14 chaos13 wrote: The bolded is probably the scummiest thing about DB at the moment. You say that as if Palmar is confirmed town "I hope you didn't land vigi..." Any explanation for this? You see, I don't see why any mafia would ever point this out, because it basically is giving credit to someone who is controversial. Sure, you may not have followed through and voted on me anyway, but it's still something to consider. Some people might actually believe you and consider this a scumslip by DB, and by extension a confirmation of myself. Thing is there are some things in your posting that make absolutely no sense though. Like are you seriously posting shit like this? On August 22 2011 03:39 chaos13 wrote: I point out your scumminess and suddenly I'm scum, and apparently should be vigi hit. Viscera points out your scumminess and he's town. HMMMMMMM and this (anyone who has ever played with VE, knows why this post is super-scummy) On August 22 2011 03:36 chaos13 wrote: Finally somebody smart gets in here. I can't believe people let Palmar away so easily. Let's assume for a second you don't think I am scum, and in turn I'll think for a second you might be town aligned. What would you think about lynching BrownBear. I will give my thoughts on your lynch target of choice after I've done re-reading his posts. | ||
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On August 22 2011 23:29 Erandorr wrote: Hey Palmar could you pretend for one second that I exist and answer my question ? :D What question? | ||
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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=254174&user=4640 Enjoy, it's a must read. | ||
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But if you're interested in my opinion, then no, I only find it easier to analyse people I've played a lot with because I better understand their posting. | ||
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On August 22 2011 23:52 Erandorr wrote: Done with that , what now? Maybe you could tell me whom to vote for , you seem to be very good at that BrownBear. | ||
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As for Navillus. I'd like you to figure out the answer by yourself. Go back and read the difference in tone how BrownBear was pushing his ideas and how Navillus was pushing his. Everything about Navillus screams enthusiastic townie at me. Filter out each's posts and look at the very, very notable difference in attitude. I actually think Navillus is one of the less likely players in the game to be mafia at the moment. I want to hear more from Mig. It really bothers me that Jackal is trying to somehow link my alignment to his flip, something he knows very well is ridiculously stupid to do as town, because townies have been wrong before, however it makes perfect sense as scum. Care to explain this link Jackal? | ||
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On August 23 2011 00:59 Curu wrote: ....why are you blue fishing the Medic? Foolishness is in no danger of being lynched at the moment, there are a million scummier people in this Town. Are you being intentionally thick? | ||
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On August 23 2011 01:04 Curu wrote: I see no reason to disbelieve Foolisness's claim, especially with the RBer add-on. If no one gets RBed the rest of the game, he comes under suspicion and Foolishness makes sense as a N1 hit. I see no reason for the Medic to out himself to "confirm" a guy who shouldn't need to be confirmed at this point anyways. Hence "I don't know when and how". The medic should absolutely claim if Foolishness was up for a lynch. Also, if the medic suspected he might be getting shot for some reason, leaving the information with us is good. If I get RB'd tomorrow does that confirm Foolishness? Hell no... I don't even know what you're saying here. But yes, he's not about to be lynched today, thus it's stupid to claim until at first near daybreak tomorrow, maybe even wait another cycle or two. People keep talking about Vain: I think shooting him tonight would be an excellent idea. He hasn't contributed squat to this game and doesn't deserve to live. | ||
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On August 23 2011 01:09 Curu wrote: I can agree with that. Medic claiming now or at the end of this night is absurdly stupid when Foolishness it not in danger of being lynched. So what do you think about lynching Mig? | ||
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On August 23 2011 01:10 Jackal58 wrote: You want Mig dead. What's hard about that? Yes I think Mig is scum. let's entertain the thought that he flips town, does that make me scum? | ||
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Jackal only stated that if Mig flipped scum he'd see me as more green, not the other way around. So I'm just being an idiot. | ||
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How did you not see the fact that sevryn was going to flip town on day 1? That's very unusual for you. | ||
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https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?hl=en_US&hl=en_US&key=0Aolx7msuf_IvdHZoc05pSE9neVFWOWU2RTVYWWpBRmc&output=html | ||
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On August 23 2011 19:13 Mig wrote: Meh it didn't seem so obvious to me. All of his actions from early on and the middle of the day were scummy and they were different than his play in the last 2 games I had played with him where he was generally much more passive early on as town. His defense late seemed more townie but even that I thought could still have been plausible scum play trying to last ditch save himself. What do you think about my case against Dropbear? I think it's very good, seeing as dropbear is reasonably active and almost always content with speaking his mind when he's town, to the point of trolling the thread. But this time it's almost as he's disappeared until the heat is off him. It's actually the one saving grace in your play from my point of view. I'll call you bad names on skype if you flip town this game. I'd like your thoughts on the following players: BrownBear, VisceraEyes, Curu | ||
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Barundar clearly says he's okay with a vote-off between those two contenders, and he also makes it clear which one he'll be supporting. | ||
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I need to write a long post. | ||
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Also, each role has custom fluff, to deter any silly ideas like name claiming, the mafia may at any point request a safe-claim from me and I will provide it, safe claims can be for any role, from Liquidian to Inquisitor Still... I don't have a name from TL Mafia, although my role description does mention Ver. | ||
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On August 23 2011 22:15 Curu wrote: How do you know this? Are Millers/Nosy Neighbors told they are such? Because that's how millers always work. | ||
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There are quite a few things missing and I'm still trying to make sure how to interpret them. Maybe DropBear will be so kind as to provide answers or explanations where applicable. a) DropBear never once even mentioned Supersoft's name before he claimed the check. Normal play for DT would suggest you immediately start planting it in your posts that your red check is scum after receiving the results, this is done in case you get killed. b) I have no idea why DB decided to claim the role to out a relatively new scum player. His weight could easily have pushed the vote towards Mig, someone DB apparently considers a fair lynch too. It just seems like DB is playing DT very sub-optimally. c) The timing of the claim is weird, why not just post it right at the start of the day if he was going to do it anyway. Votes were happily piling on Mig, just breadcrumb your results and check another day. d) Why on earth would he check Supersoft? I think the obvious DT checks would be the more experienced and outspoken players, or the lurkers. Supersoft has been very enthusiastic in the thread so far, and definitely not afraid to speak his mind. I was getting a pretty townie feel from him overall. e) Why do you feel the need to push your DT check with an analysis? Like... You know he's red, and you just told everyone else. Isn't that enough? f) why the hell would you not immediately demand town lynches Supersoft when you claim? But to be completely fair there are several points that also need considering, and those work in DB's favour. a) This whole thing seems too elaborate to be manufactured. If DB wanted to simply frame someone red in a trade, he'd probably pick someone perceived as more dangerous to the scum team, or he'd just fake a dt check on some heavy candidate. b) Supersoft does have some questionable content in his posts. | ||
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Do we lynch DropBear? | ||
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lol, he isn't listed no. Doesn't seem to be stopping him voting on Supersoft like the baller he is. | ||
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On August 24 2011 00:20 DropBear wrote: I'm the medic who protected Foolishness. That's how I know he is confirmed town. I voted Mig entirely because Foolishness did. I am having real troubles working out who is who other than that. As long as this goes uncontested, I'm more than fine with believing it. | ||
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On August 24 2011 00:31 DropBear wrote: Yeah well you know from RTM that my judgement isn't always best T_T Sorry for being a retard but we need to get back to business. RayzorFlash and xtfftc? How about BrownBear? | ||
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Worst case they're lying, and since no one counterclaims DB, Foolishness is scum. It looks like an insane gambit from scum point of view. Occam's razor tells us they're both town. I hope our vigis shoot scummy lurkers, I want to lynch scummy active people. | ||
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On August 24 2011 03:39 Varpulis wrote: wow DB. way to fucking kill the town atmosphere. the last ~5 pages contained no scumhunting, no discussion of lynches, nothing. Just arguments about sanity of dts, supersoft's alignment, and sanity of DropBear. And as a MEDIC? I suggest we let the mafia deal with them. If they leave him alive to make him seem suspicious, we have a medic for town to control. Get a dt to check him, and bob's your uncle. shut up stop giving our dts bad advice | ||
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I'm gonna give this a bit of a thought. | ||
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On August 24 2011 07:01 Erandorr wrote: Yo palmar you still down with lynching bb? I would very much want to lynch BrownBear, but I'm not sure I can build the support for that case today. Of the other candidates there are some for points and some against. Hiro Protagonist has either very much stepped up his scum play, or I'm right and he's town, I don't want to lynch him today. xtffcasdio is much more scummy than hiro. But there is a certain impulsiveness in his posts. I can't exactly put my finger on it, but he's not gone below the "fishy" category for me yet. Which leaves Mig. The entire argument against Mig, is that he has done very, very little fingerpointing that matters this game. Mig is one to usually tear up the thread as town and find scum left and right. He says he's fed up with mafia at the moment, but I mean, it's huge wifom if he's actually telling the truth in that regard. There are other daming things in Mig's play. He has stuck down a total of 3 fos's in this game. One on Sevryn, where he called him lolscum, only to back it off later and try to switch the town to lynch chaoser. I don't know if Mig ever thought he could sway town with this switch, but it sure didn't look like he was pushing it. Lastly he wrote an analysis on DropBear, who has... well... played questionably throughout the game. I don't really mind this case, what I mind is the fact that Mig was wrong again, and seemed to be going for a target that was easy to hunt down. As I said much earlier in the thread, I have a fuckton of respect for Mig as a player, and given that respect, I don't think he can have done the things he has done unless he is either completely and utterly fed up with the game, or just not town-aligned. I find the latter more likely. ##Vote Mig | ||
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The games I'm referring to are BC's AA and SNMMII. Thing is, meta isn't always reliable, good players can and will change up their meta, but there is always... something. I don't know, it just feels like he's too... jumpy/impulsive/arrogant to be scum this game. But do form your own opinions. | ||
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On August 24 2011 07:24 Kurumi wrote: Well guys, then hiro protagonist will try to outsmart the bullet during the night. Oh wait, it's a HAMMER. There's a link between supersoft+Palmar and hiro protagonist, in my opinion it's a very good lynch given that AND he is scummy as heck and I do believe he is scum. if you actually have a hammer, feel free to punch hiro in the face if it's your best read. I'd suggest Vain and Nard as other options. Maybe even chaos13, who has done literally nothing to help town this game. I find it really contradictory that he keeps ranting about town atmosphere being bad, yet has not taken any visible action to improve it. | ||
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I think killing Mig is the right thing. Town, you know what to do, we need a majority in the next 5 hours. Kill Mig! | ||
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On August 24 2011 07:44 Curu wrote: I'm kind of glad I never had to play Town with you past day 1 before this. You are ridiculously stubborn and annoying to deal with. I form opinions, and I then try to objectively read the thread after that, but it's hard. I'm not afraid of being wrong, and I've quite often been right. Maybe this is the game where I'm wrong on all accounts, but I expect others to be able to pick that up. Also, why do you basically declare me town? Do you know my alignment? | ||
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On August 24 2011 08:05 Curu wrote: Look at your arguments, you're basically saying hiro is a worse lynch than Mig because of meta arguments and how they play in other games. That's basically it and you're trying to force your opinion down everyone's throats instead of laying out why you think these things. hiro looks worse than Mig to me, I'd much rather him be the lynch today. I'm trying to explain to you why, you respond with "Curu doesn't want to lynch Mig, so let's lynch Mig." What do you want me to say? I have read both arguments, there have been numerous other points about Mig, not only mine. Neither are in no way connected to any of the other tunnels I've had the entire game. I came to this conclusion after re-reading the posts of all three. I don't even understand what your gripe is. | ||
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i we can muster enough votes, I'd love a last minute switch to him. ##Unvote Mig ##Vote chaos13 | ||
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Let's not fuck this up again, let's lynch chaos13. | ||
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It's based majorly on three things in his play, so I'll just quickly summarize them up now: a) He complains about bad town atmosphere but does nothing to improve it, in turn becoming part of the problem b) He's basically abstaining from voting, both on day 1, and now again on day 2, by throwing his votes on random people that aren't in danger of being lynched. c) He hasn't actually pushed a single lynch hard the entire game. First off, let's look at his day 1 performance. This is basically what he did. He attacked me for disrupting town atmosphere, but he did nothing to try and remedy the "problem". All he did was throw down the vote on me, and complain some more. He never really pushed my lynch either, he kinda said he wanted to do it, but never commited to forcing town to do his bidding. Now let's also look at one major slip up on day 1. On August 21 2011 07:55 chaos13 wrote: By now you should know that if you feel like lynching me, I'm probably town :p But seriously, your only reason for being okay with lynching me is because I think you're scum. That is a textbook OMGUS, and I have no idea why everyone seems to think you're so town. You're the reason this thread has been so completely derailed already. Here's the deal. He says he thinks I am mafia, but the bolded sentences really looks like he believes that my accusations are genuine, the first one is a joke, the other one isn't. If he thinks I'm scum, why on earth would my accusations be genuine. Chaos13 ends day one with his vote on me on the basis that he thinks I am scum, and yet he fully understands how bad off-votes are for town. He also did the razorflash switch, I don't know if it's to absolve him of responsibility or what, but I don't like it. The second post I'm going to look specifically at from chaos comes in wake of the DB mess on day 2. He does have some questionable content over the day, just read it up and think about it. On August 23 2011 21:15 chaos13 wrote: This post is the reason I'm inclined not to believe you. I can't see a genuine DT with a red check feeling like they will have trouble getting their red check lynched. This is a guilty mindset. The order of events I would like to see happen right now 1. Lynch DB 2. If blue flip, vig supersoft 3. Suddenly, information - lynch mig. Going back to read all of DropBear's posts before I move my vote to him. Am I still the only one who thinks Foolish is scum? Check this post out I've never seen a townie be so adamant about defending their town read before. Regardless, I'll drop him for today and focus on what's relevant. This plan he's giving us is basically the perfect way to continue as mafia. He already knows both supersoft and dropbear won't flip scum, so hell, let's suggest we kill them both! This is of course based on the assumption they aren't scum, but we need to work with something. I think chaos 13 is our best lynch today ##Vote Chaos13 | ||
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On August 24 2011 08:58 Vain wrote: Hmm, i'm just gonna stick with hero. Still don't believe he wasn't pushing an agenda. Also. Palmar isn't chaos playing the same as in Real time mafia. It could be just me but wasn't revolving around EVERYTHING like his last play then or am i missing something:\ Thing is in RTM, he actively contributed to creating a good atmosphere, instead of just randomly complaining about it. yes, he's a very passive player, and I sometimes mistake his passiveness for scummyness, but I'd be more comfortable with lynching him than any of the other targets tonight. | ||
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On August 24 2011 09:01 Foolishness wrote: Why would we lynch chaos when we have good analysis against 3 players right now? Anyone who is proposing we lynch chaos is only further distracting the town and trying to divert attention away from the matter at hand. Make your case tonight/tomorrow, it's too late now. Don't hurt the town. I do think we have time to push the chaos13 lynch. He's catching up with the others quite fast, and I think he's a better option than all the others. | ||
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But I really favor the chaos13 lynch a lot over the other three. | ||
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On August 24 2011 09:03 Kurumi wrote: Didn't You refuse to lynch hiro based on meta ? Honestly , what the heck is this . Hiro will die anyway , so just accept it . What the hell are you talking about Kurumi, this makes no sense. I said that sometimes I mistake it, but I think right now it's over the top, and this isn't just meta, look at the case I built against him. I'm starting to think you may not be as town-aligned as I had hoped. | ||
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On August 24 2011 09:09 Foolishness wrote: You are providing a huge distraction to the town. You're almost helping the mafia by splitting up the votes like this. I don't care if you don't like the prospects, you spent all day doing nothing about the people who were the top candidates, don't pansy out now. At the time, I didn't like either of the 1st day candidates but I sucked it up and voted rather than push for a last minute switch against my favorite candidate (Mig). I think most everyone agrees that at least one person of the 3 (Mig, hiro, xtfftc) is mafia. To ignore that is asking to get lynched/shot. We have 3 people who we have good analysis for, who have spent time defending themselves. To toss all of that out the window at the last second could not be more anti-town. Not to mention, when either of these flip we have good leads. If Mig is mafia I have an incredible lead on his team (Dropbear confirmed the link between Mig and other players in the game) so I'm not bluffing. People have pointed out the connections between hiro/xtfftc and other players. Where does chaos13 fit in? No where. Take your garbage somewhere else. Trying to get a player lynched because I like him as scum is not anti-town. It would be if I just went afk, but I'm not going afk until I either abandon this attempt, or successfully pull it off. I hope everyone who is town aligned does the same. Mig is the person I'll be voting for if this switch to chaos13 fails. I didn't like sevryn on day 1 either, but I voted for him because we need the lynches. I will do the same again, but I'm going to try to do the right thing first. | ||
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On August 24 2011 09:14 Lucidity wrote: What in the world. Oh my. 2 hours before deadline and most of EU asleep? NICE PLAN? Also when I wrote my post we were still on 65. Way to spam. Yes, I just wasn't around to re-read the thread properly earlier, it sucks, I'm seeing where we can take this. If this fails, Mig should probably hang. | ||
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On August 24 2011 09:16 Foolishness wrote: So Palmar, when you and a few others switch back to Mig last minute and the rest of the chaos voters switch to xtfftc and we get a no lynch can we lynch you tomorrow? If this goes wrong then someone needs to take the blame for it, and it's going to be you. I'm fine with that. | ||
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On August 24 2011 09:22 xtfftc wrote: Palmar, are you happy to push Chaos13's lynch with the condition that in case he is town, you die next? Sure. | ||
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On August 24 2011 09:23 Jackal58 wrote: I'll switch back in an hour if there is no love. Actually make that 40 minutes. yah, similar time-frame for me. | ||
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Chaos gets to die another day. | ||
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On August 24 2011 09:47 Kurumi wrote: Of course You prefer MIG because Town might not get enough votes for hiro and we get a no lynch . I hate this game. I'm playing so badly. | ||
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chances of mig flipping scum ~10% | ||
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Mig is/was leading the race, vote for him so we can kill another townie. | ||
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On August 24 2011 15:35 BrownBear wrote: Best introductory post ever. Also... what the fuck, town. I guess at least we lynched somebody... nah, fuck that, WHAT THE FUCK TOWN. I'm taking a second look at Palmar tomorrow. His chaos13 plan was one of the most retarded things in the history of TL Mafia. if you think this you're scum or dumb | ||
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80-100% chance of being town BrownBear is town Chaos13 is town Erandorr is town Vain is town Nard is town Curu is town Kurumi is town You should never lynch into this list, because that'd be stupid. Honorable menitons go to: Varpulis Pyo | ||
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On August 24 2011 19:01 Lucidity wrote: Can't believe he was green though -.- yah, it's because you don't think, or you're scum. And for some reason no one listens to a word I say. | ||
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On August 24 2011 19:08 wherebugsgo wrote: Cause you say things in a manner no one would listen to! If you actually said things in a reasonable manner, we'd probably value your opinion. Yesterday I disregarded what you were saying because your manner seemed scummy to me. Yes, I am aware that if we lose this game it's probably very largely my fault, because I haven't been able to secure the trust required for town to listen to me when I explain we're about to lynch a townie. What I'm slightly annoyed at, is that while I'm playing terribly, and really, I'm more mad at myself than anything else, there seems to be no one else ready to put in the work to actually think about the game at hand. It should have been pretty obvious that Hiro and Sevryn were being lynched because they were being a bit derp. But someone already put it right in the thread that it's generally townies who are derp, not scum. I think Hiro was playing a pretty good town game, better than he ever has. He was blatantly town in my eyes. Now I can't fault people for not seeing things I fail to properly explain, but I hope that when you guys re-read his posts, you'll understand. I would have preferred a no lynch over killing hiro. Problem is, for some reason this town is more concerned with not being wrong, than with actually being right. Like people are afraid to think independently and read the thread objectively. The hive mentality this majority lynch spawns is extremely mafia favored, at least with a town that is so afraid of being made fool of. If we have the chance, I'd suggest to our vigilantes to focus on shooting active people tonight. The reason for this is that we severely lack information, so instead of shooting the scummiest lurkers like vigis usually should do, I'd ask you to shoot scummy active people. | ||
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On August 24 2011 19:23 Lucidity wrote: You believed hiro's Vet claim. I don't think your judgment this game is that great. Trying to introduce chaos13 as the new lynch candidate 2 hours before deadline was also a blunder. If anyone is not thinking, it is you. Based on the previous game I played with you I expected more from you... That's worrying me. I believed his Vet claim because I believed he was town. That's not bad judgement. I can't actually tell the difference between vanilla townies, medics, dts, vigis and veterans. Asking that of me is absolutely ridiculous. I didn't think townies would lie about their roles, but who cares. I knew he was not scum, so I don't care what he claims. I can, with reasonable amount of confidence, tell apart town-aligned people and scum-aligned people. And I already apologized, I simply wasn't perfectly available to try to do the switch earlier. As I already promised, the switch had no negative effect on town. It was not a blunder, however much people trying to discredit me make it want to look like one. | ||
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If he's using it as an excuse, we'll find out later. And I'll tunnel him every game from there on. I just don't think Mig is dirty enough to play like that, if he was scum he'd be defending him with in-game reasons instead of emotional reasons. | ||
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On August 24 2011 19:31 wherebugsgo wrote: Okay. I think this post convinced me lol. Come morning I'm voting you. That would be a pretty stupid move. | ||
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On August 24 2011 19:38 wherebugsgo wrote: Well I'd be down to vote you too, cause your actions over the past day have definitely eroded my town opinion of you. I think you're scumbuddies with supersoft. Both you and supersoft have attempted to gain towncred by landing on the right side of the voting both days. SS was more obvious about it but you've been spearheading these distraction efforts too. You BOTH are claiming we're all too dumb etc etc to see that hiro/sev were town when in reality hiro played like absolute trash and Sevryn's mistakes made him seem like a pretty good target day 1 too. Yeah, we were ultimately wrong in our assessments, but I stand by the reasoning. You can filter my posts and go back and see my analysis of hiro, for example. Honestly though, you and supersoft jumped several levels all at once in scumminess, ESPECIALLY in that last 2 hours vote switch you guys attempted. I'm scum because I'm right, lol I'm not saying town is stupid, I'm saying it's my own fault for not explaining my arguments in a good enough manner to prevent town from doing stupid shit. Basically, at this point you're either town hiding the fact that you're not objectively reading the thread behind claiming hiro and sevryn are bad, or you're scum trying to do look like you're doing exactly that. I have been leaning town on you for a while, I simply think your reasons were wrong. Being wrong is fine, being okay with being wrong is good town play, but we also need to be objective instead of emotional. Read the entire thing again with the knowledge you have now. You should find things a bit more clear. I'm not giving up, and at some point people will listen. | ||
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On August 24 2011 19:51 wherebugsgo wrote: You're not scum because you're right. You're scum because you were right when no one else was. There's a big difference. Care to explain why, if you knew all along hiro was town, you didn't reason me and others out of voting him? Care to explain why you would pick a lurking lynch target in the last 2 hours of the day to focus your attention on, when we already had 3 candidates to lynch, ALL with decent analysis on them? Care to explain why you would seemingly just throw out 20+ hours of information and work just to muck up the last 2 hours with a vote on chaos13 (lol) instead of Mig or hiro? We could've used that time to discuss, instead we lost it all scrambling to try and get a vote on an actual lynch candidate most of us had spent hours analyzing. I'll break it down for you: Care to explain why, if you knew all along hiro was town, you didn't reason me and others out of voting him? I did, I tried to get the lynch away from him, here's one of the posts. I already said multiple times that knowing Hiro Protagonist this was not the way he'd ever play as scum. This is based on meta, so it's harder to explain, and in turn for you to understand. Read my posting history, I state multiple times that I don't think hiro can be scum. Care to explain why you would pick a lurking lynch target in the last 2 hours of the day to focus your attention on, when we already had 3 candidates to lynch, ALL with decent analysis on them? We had two candidates, Mig and Hiro. xtf wasn't a serious contender for that lynch, or I'd probably in the end have liked him better than the other two. I already said multiple times that I did not have the time to build the case, and it simply did not occur to me to try the switch until 2 hours before the lynch. I don't know why people keep fixating on that, because it's not like that thing was in any way detrimental to town. Main reason I tried it is because I don't believe either candidate is scum. Care to explain why you would seemingly just throw out 20+ hours of information and work just to muck up the last 2 hours with a vote on chaos13 (lol) instead of Mig or hiro? We could've used that time to discuss, instead we lost it all scrambling to try and get a vote on an actual lynch candidate most of us had spent hours analyzing. What did you want to discuss, which townie to lynch? I'm not here to make sure everything goes to plan, I'm here to find and kill scum. How does it matter if you spend hours analyzing it when it's wrong? I said multiple times that being wrong is okay, it's perfectly fine. But once you realize you were wrong, you need to step back and re-read the thread. Every time a townie gets lynched, you need to re-read the thread, instead of lynching the next player who must be scum because he wasn't wrong like you. | ||
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On August 24 2011 19:53 wherebugsgo wrote: LOL You believed the vet claim, of all things. Hiro's logic was so convoluted I have no idea how anyone could've believed he actually was a vet. He didn't even provide flavotext for it. He could have claimed a town-aligned planar dragon and I'd have believed him. why? Because I believed him to be town aligned, and I had no idea what his role was. I can't believe people are actually giving me shit for only being able to deduce his alignment, not his role. | ||
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On August 24 2011 20:56 chaos13 wrote: Vigilantes, whatever you do, do not listen to this. Unless you're an amazing scumhunter (there's a few of you out there, so if you're one of them feel free) you are more likely to hit town. Then you have not only eliminated a townie, you have eliminated an actively contributing townie, which is BAD. If you feel compelled to shoot, hit lurkers. Even better, hit a scummy lurker. DT's check Palmar. Hell, vig him. He's still stirring this game up into an anti-town environment, so even if he's town it would be of more use than hitting a lurker. shut up scum. Or if you're town... you're amazingly bad. | ||
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He wrote a big post about simply being fed up with mafia. I believed him because I've played quite a bit with Mig, enough to know that it's very unlike him to try and use excuses like that if he was scum. He's much more likely to be genuine and be town. In addition, his posting dramatically improved in the latter half of the last tday. | ||
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On August 24 2011 19:51 wherebugsgo wrote: You're not scum because you're right. You're scum because you were right when no one else was. This is going into my profile. | ||
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On August 24 2011 22:09 Pyo wrote: but you don't find his change of heart to be scummy? Suddenly starting to put extra effort into posting after having "genuinely" stated that he's burned out – is that part of his meta too? That's exactly what I'd expect him to, he's Mig, he's a nice guy and a fair player, he doesn't want to cause the town to mislynch him, so he mans up and posts some good stuff. That's what I think. I'll probably just write a big post before daybreak about all the things that I think, then I'll just let you guys decide if what I say will ever become something to listen to. | ||
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He cannot possibly be this bad at mafia, I've actually seen him play really good town games, but as per my analysis right here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=11038314 I suggest we lynch him tomorrow. | ||
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On August 25 2011 00:45 Kurumi wrote: Do You think I am dumb? Just because You weren't on wagon which led on townie lynch does not make You a townie, same goes with lynches going on mafia. Sure, You CAN be Town, but there are many shenanigans which could happen. You're basically claiming a vigilante and your target 11 hours before the deadline. If somehow you're not scum and supersoft is (the chances of this are very low) the scumteam will just block the shot with a doctor or roleblock you. Unless you have a bigger plan (trying to draw a roleblock... or something... I don't know...) this is basically a terrible way to shoot. | ||
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I'm generally active, but not like I've been this game. Thing is, I don't yet know how to convince an unresponsive town without PMs. This is the first time as town where I want to be listened to and get completely ignored. In all those games I've played recently I've had my way, and town has done very well for it. For some reason, mafia influenced or not, this town is different than others. People here refuse to listen to reason, and lynch based on what, but not on how. The ridiculousness reached new heights when people started accusing me of being scum for the crime of being right. I'll take a step back, I think I've made my thoughts pretty clear, I've built my cases and submitted my reads. The rest of you can do what you wish with them, I'm not posting unless necessary now. | ||
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On August 25 2011 06:52 GMarshal wrote: Now looking for one more replacement. PM me -__- Why hasn't Trotske been modkilled? | ||
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a) Most importantly, anything I say within the game should be considered "role-playing". If anyone takes it personally, then I'm deeply sorry, I got a bit frustrated there for a while because I'm super-competitive. So yeah, sorry about my attitude. I'm available to talk things over if anyone feels mistreated. b) Sorry for my terrible play this game. This is the worst game I've played as town since my first 3 games where I was learning. ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ Go get them town! Good luck, see you next game. | ||
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This was not the case during this game, people were stuck with their heads up their asses and did not want to read objectively, and thus it's my own failure not to adapt my play to the bad logic that worked with this town. Here is the list I wrote on day 2, remember that later during the day foolishness and dropbear got "confirmed" https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?hl=en_US&hl=en_US&key=0Aolx7msuf_IvdHZoc05pSE9neVFWOWU2RTVYWWpBRmc&output=html But this game was different, people simply did not want to work for it, and I completely failed to adapt my playstyle to this much more naive town than before. On August 24 2011 07:47 Palmar wrote: I form opinions, and I then try to objectively read the thread after that, but it's hard. I'm not afraid of being wrong, and I've quite often been right. Maybe this is the game where I'm wrong on all accounts, but I expect others to be able to pick that up. Also, why do you basically declare me town? Do you know my alignment? The only person on town's side that had decent reads early was Foolishness, other people like xtf and wbg played alright-ish once they got the chance to pull their heads out of their asses, but that was just too late. Personally I have a huge issue with people who seemingly don't care enough to put any thought into their playing. I had major confusion issues with chaos13 this game, because I couldn't simply write off his terrible reads as nooby, because he's not a noob, he's actually pretty good at this game, but this game everything was so off I simply couldn't imagine any other reason but him being wrong intentionally, while the truth was he simply failed to read the thread. I'm going to bold this, because I failed to do this once when I was a newbie, and you all need to learn this lesson. Whenever a townie dies or gets confirmed, especially through a lynch or vig shot, re-read the entire thread with this new information in hand. Foolishness died and had so many nuggets of wisdom. I died and left you with basically the entire mafia team uncovered, but still you lynched people who were obviously not scum. It's so important to read the thread and not focus on looking for "scummy things" or "scumtells". That's what gets uncareful townies lynched, like Hiro and Sevryn. Anyone should've been able to tell they were town, it is how I initially pinned Curu as scum, he's very good at mafia and thus couldn't possibly think the Hiro and Sevryn lynches were good ideas. It was also the case against Mig. This game is just the pinnacle of what happens when you mix pride with lazyness, you end up with a shitty, shitty town that's unable to do anything constructive. On day one we had a mafia against the wall, but we lynched a very, very obvious townie (like, what mafia would so blatantly bandwagon me?) because I was too proud to change my approach, and town was too proud and lazy to listen to my arguments and actually read Sevryn's posts and deduce the mindset he was in when he made those. Thing is, I'll admit it, I'm getting more lazy with posting in a political way, by now I expect people to just listen to what I say, when I'm town and they do it usually ends up very well for town, but sometimes people just don't, and it's hard having to convince the same people every game. Some of us are just never going to be any useful anyway, VisceraEyes has almost never had a correct read, yet he seems unwilling to step back and reassess his approach. Kurumi is a troublemaker in his own, and giving him a gun was the worst thing that could happen to town. chaos13 has been having a streak of terrible reads (cosmic horror, xliv etc) but he'll bounce back once he lets go of his pride, because he's actually good. I think both xtf and wbg have the potential to be good players, same with supersoft, and if hiro protagonist plays town like this again he can easily elevate himself to a good player too. And then there's of course balance to consider, with DropBear and chaos13 derping like mad, who were supposed to be some of town's best and most experienced players there was very little to work with for town. Mafia had 4 really good players, Curu, Mig, BrownBear and chaoser, while town really only had three, Jackal, Foolishness and me. Anyway, I guess this game can act as a collective lesson to us all. So many new or new-ish people got their first taste of being completely fucking wrong time and time again this game, so I hope it allows them to break down and re-build their approach to play better mafia in the future, loads of fairly new players in this game that can go on to be good. As for myself, I'll never again take being listened to for granted, I thought Foolishness's "If Palmar is mafia he's on drugs" would be enough, but again, head in ass syndrome ruined reads for town. Whenever someone like Foolishness says something like that, and then becomes confirmed, people better fucking listen. Well played mafia, and again, sorry for my own performance this game. GG | ||
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I am fully aware of the shortcomings of this approach, which is why this is the only game I employed it and the only game I will employ it. This does not work as an excuse for people who didn't read the thread though. And to answer your last point chaos13, is that when everyone is cool, calculated and logical, the mafia can be exactly the same. It's very, very easy to fake an analytical mistake, but it's surprisingly hard to fake an emotional response. By stirring things up, if you're able to then disconnect you from the situation, you can get miles better read on people, because things posted fast like 1-liners, arguments, shouting etc, is a lot less thought out than analysis, and thus much easier to read the true motivations, as they cannot be properly hidden in the time-frame it takes to respond to this emotional style of play. Erandorr, thanks for telling me things I know. | ||
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On September 09 2011 01:36 Curu wrote: Palmar's absolutely right about the logic vs arguing thing. I didn't get a lick of suspicion for my giant long "analysis" posts but when I went toe-to-toe arguing with Palmar about hiro, I actually scumslipped and called Palmar Town. Well that, and I know for a fact you're not bad enough to actually believe the shit you were saying. | ||
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On September 09 2011 02:11 Curu wrote: Eh, I'm tunnely/wrong/stupid a lot of the time as Town too. I told Mig over and over in XLIII that I had the perfect meta for scum and wouldn't be lurking as scum when he suspected me in that game cause I was borderline lurking. Difference is that you accept logic as town I mean, this information is useless to anyone but myself, but I can usually tell by your reactions if you're scum or town, which is great for me. You're certainly a great player, now you've proven to be both good at scum and town, so don't worry too much about it. It's like syllogism and myself, I simply can't hide the fact I'm scum from him. If syllo dies n1, I'm scum. | ||
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