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Palmar
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@DoctorHelvetica: Simply ignoring every post from WBG is a valid strategy. His reads as town are pretty much all over the place and his logic tends to be kinda weird, and he's actually really effective as a distracting scum, so you don't want to be listening to him anyway. | ||
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On November 11 2011 19:27 Forumite wrote: Hahaha! You funny man! I kill you last! I have a personal vendetta against townies who get themselves lynched day 1. | ||
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Here's a pro-tip. We lynch all liars, always, and every fucking time. No exceptions. If someone disagrees he's probably not thinking hard enough, and should re-think before he opens his mouth to spout more bullshit. Or he's scum. Think before you talk. | ||
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On November 16 2011 01:56 chaoser wrote: Really? Cause I'm pretty sure in XLIV had tons of people fake claiming and not one of them was lynched =P And look at how that game turned out. LAL is in effect, stop discussing it, we're murdering the fuck out of any asshole with a plan that involves lying for some probably dumb-as-shit reason. | ||
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I will write an alignment analysis on the first three players people ask me to do. Each player can only select one person for me to analyse, and I will provide a post for each subject on what I currently think of their alignment. Go! | ||
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I'm reading prplhz and chaoser atm | ||
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##Vote: Coagulation | ||
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##Unvote: Coagulation ##Vote: chaoser So here's my reasoning chaoser needs to be lynched. First off, we should establish that chaoser is both analytical and critical as town. His play this game starkly contrasts that idea. He is throwing accusations and votes both left and right without actually doing much to back them up. Now, this leads us to think what would make chaoser throw his votes around like this. The only sensible reason to do that as town is to apply pressure, but when you are the one being pressured it's actually not beneficial to do this, because no one is going to listen to you anyway. The optimal town play in this situation is to try as hard as you can to build reputation for people to listen to you for. However, chaoser seems not even slightly interested in raising his status in the game, feeling pretty comfortable being not listened to at all. Something only scum is interested in. On November 16 2011 09:15 chaoser wrote: 1) Deal with my posts being different. This use of "your posts are different" meta is so stupid I'd gladly post completely differently every single game to kill it. Can't tell if you're mafia or stupid >_> Also while the manner in which I post is different, the reasoning behind my posts isn't, (XXXIX) 2) How are my posts "straight up scummy?" ##Vote: Sinani206 I'm so happy I get to vote multiple people This one is particularly interesting. First off, we have to understand how sinani206 works to see if this is legit. Remember, sinani206 hasn't got the greatest track record as town or scum, but he does have his tells like everyone else. This little vote he placed on chaoser seems to be pretty genuine. Like he's not pro enough as scum to realize that doing something like that with his meta as scum is excellent play, and thus the simplest explanation is that sinani206 is town. chaoser should have understood this, yet he directly OMGUS votes sinani206, even gloating about the fact he's voting multiple people. So yes, I think chaoser would be an excellent lynch today. Also, just for future reference: On November 15 2011 22:23 chaoser wrote: We are the 99% I am also green townie <3 LAL is stupid This is chaoser soft-claiming a power-role. No reason to do it unless you're scum. If you can't understand how he's soft-claiming a power role, well... you deserve to be punched. So yeah, let's kill that guy. | ||
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So here's the deal, he's one of the harder people to read. His scumplay is pretty underestimated because of how bad his town play can be at times. He gets away with doing stupid stuff because he does it as town too, and he's not afraid of being cocky and aggressive as scum. His post regarding LAL and policies seems genuine enough, although it was kinda stupid. LAL will be enforced no matter what. But his stance seems to be what he really believes, which is probably what you would do as town. Another thing is that while I think his scum play is good, I don't think he's ballsy enough to put his neck out to argue against an accepted town policy int he way that he's done. Notice that both he and chaoser oppose LAL, but they do it in vastly different ways. I think calling prplhz scum would be very much over the top at the moment. The post he just wrote about me manipulating people is probably the most scummy thing he has done all game, because all it does is to try to detract from my analysis, which otherwise should be pretty beneficial to town. Before that post I would be inclined to end up with something like "leaning town", but I guess he's just a pretty null read at the moment. If you held a gun to my head and asked me if he's scum or town, I'd go with town at the moment. So yeah, we're not killing prplhz. | ||
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That's awesome ##Vote Coagulation ##Vote Drazerk | ||
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On November 17 2011 00:10 hyshes wrote: Eventhough i did like your analysis, i'm kinda confused on why you didn't just post an analysis on people you found suspicious. Don't you care on who you are doing analysis on? Or are you trying to avoid drawing a connection between you and some other persons? btw why are you voting coagulation and drazerk? You made a case against chaoser before voting for him, but not for those two. And nobody else made a case against them. prplhz told me Drazerk is scum Coag because he's always scum and he always lurks. And yeah, that's actually the case, generally it doesn't matter whose posts you read. I am pretty sure no one in this game has gone through everyone's filters and formed an opinion. Most people are likely focusing on somewhere between 2-5 people and mostly ignoring the rest of the game. So as an experiment I allowed random townies to pick which people I should focus on, because that gives the additional benefit of me not entering the analysis biased. I think it's working out well, again I am going to re-iterate: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=12303438 chaoser is scum You all should be voting for him. + Show Spoiler + If you really want to know why I'm voting Drazerk and Coag, read through their filters. | ||
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On November 17 2011 00:32 Drazerk wrote: Love you too; ill make my own mind up about chaoser later. That's pretty damn scummy, anyone with half a brain should understand that I have proven without a doubt that chaoser is at least lying, and probably scum. | ||
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On November 17 2011 00:39 Drazerk wrote: don't worry I have an Ace plan up my sleeves You keep piling on reasons why you should be lynched. And if that is a softclaim, I'm punching you in the stomach. | ||
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However, we know Drazerk isn't dumb. The only attack he's actually made in the game is against a newbie, which is a safe attack (attacking a veteran as scum is risky, cause they will call you out), and he wasn't completely convinced by my case on chaoser. I haven't seen such an easy day 1 lynch in a long time, probably since I gave myself away in XLV by incorrectly quoting a pm. the chaoser lynch is only sensible. | ||
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On November 17 2011 00:53 Nisani201 wrote: OK, one bullshit case is bad enough. But two? Enough with the FoS. Forumite is scum. ##Vote: Forumite Which case is bullshit mr. Nisani201? | ||
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I came to the same conclusion about chaoser as you, for different reasons. Which is always good because it tells us that he's setting off alarm bells for multiple people in multiple ways. I actually just went back and read your case, and I see now that you picked out the same post as I did. About bumatlarge, I don't like the fact that he doubts chaoser is scum, there is enough evidence on the table to hang chaoser. No matter what chaoser is, he's not vanilla town, which is what he claimed. I do like his vote on Nisani201 though, but nisani is sadly brilliant at getting lynched as town. I guess I would have to re-read him more to form a conclusion. I would say that I simply don't have a good read on bum yet. | ||
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On November 17 2011 01:54 Drazerk wrote: Erm wait a second... XL - Only reason I didn't get lynched was because I spammed the thread with martyr posts SNMM4 - Read above but a lot worse WaW2 - LOL AA - Bad tunnel at wiggles proceeding by telling the SK that I am the medic proceeded to acting retarded Ressurection - Lurk day 1 - shot day 1 - resed by scum and everyone realizes it because I was looking so scummy XL3 - Active lurked into acting scummy to get the whole scum team in a single post LOTR - Saved the scum from a vigilante, proceeded to defend his third party claim, ROLE CLAIMED MEDIC TO SAVE SCUM, and proceeding to get role blocked / shot while spreading confusion through out the day. Hell If scum had kept me alive I would of protected Kita and let them win. Not sure what Drazerk your talking about to be honest because it's not me Are you actually defending yourself by claiming bad? How does that benefit town? | ||
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On November 17 2011 02:30 Zephirdd wrote: I'll do as I said. ##Unvote: Palmar (on an unrelated note, is it okay to quote votes? For example, the host said we shouldn't vote and unvote the same person in a post, but what about quoting the vote?) Also, as I said, I agree with lynching lurkers. We shouldn't go apeshit over them, but at least one lurker should go. That said, ##Vote: Kenpachi Palmar was my lurker of choice, but he already provided lots of useful discussion; Kenpachi's turn atm. You need to drop the lurker shenanigans and start being useful. First mission: Vote chaoser. | ||
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On November 17 2011 03:36 Nisani201 wrote: Can we get a votecount? you need to vote chaoser. It is pretty clear that he's guilty. | ||
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On November 17 2011 06:15 Nisani201 wrote: How experienced is chaoser? Has anyone played a game with him? chaoser is a top 5 player in this game. | ||
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##Vote Lanaia ##Vote Kenpachi | ||
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Basically, that play is so bad for town that I see no reason to not lynch her. As for Kenpachi, well, his sole defense i "town is bad" which is well... fair. But remember, if you are the one who doesn't manage to argue your way out of lynch, both as town and scum, you are actually the worst person of all those bads you're complaining about. Without exception, the player who gets lynched day 1 is the worst player in the game. | ||
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On November 17 2011 07:50 ZBot wrote: Heh...you had 2 spaces in between "Vote:" and "Kenpachi" and my inflexible dumb program expects only 1. Lemme make it more flexible. Regular expressions! ♥ | ||
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I think I am being fairly outspoken, I'm just playing pro-town, and thus no one wants to lynch me. | ||
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On November 17 2011 09:30 Lanaia wrote: I really don't think we need to kill three people on the first day. YES, I SCREWED UP... But we already have one person dead because of something I did. We really should not be lynching three people on the first day, or at least WE SHOULD MAKE ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE ONE OF THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE SAID VERY LITTLE SO FAR. Wouldn't it be a pity if kenpachi, chaoser and I are all town? I know I'm town, kenpachi's actions since he've died feel town, and chaoser does not feel as scummy as some other people do. Do we really want to lose three town on a first day lynch? I just looked through the OPs and I'm having trouble finding something. Is this like other TL mafia games in which mafia has more than one KP or is this like games I'm used to on MS where mafia only has one KP? you're the one that needs to die, kenpachi wasn't a must, but getting rid of him is fine anyway. and chaoser is scum, so we need to kill him. | ||
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On November 17 2011 09:38 chaoser wrote: Sorry then, I'm extremely PO-ed that kenpachi actually got lynched. for me right now, coag and bum are pretty much equal in terms of my suspicions. Bum posted 4 times, coag posted a grand total of once where he advocates a policy lynch on Kenpachi. But I expect a lot more from bum which is why I voted for him first when thinking about the "vets" in this game. Personally I think most of the mafia team is staying as far away from this kenpachi/lanaia/chaoser bullshit as possible. They wouldn't touch it with a ten inch pole. I'm just annoyed that the town is using the shittiest logic to try to lynch people. I know you lied when you claimed. You are not vanilla town, that is not a possibility. If you were a blue, you'd probably have claimed by now, that leaves scum. @Lanaia: You have to die because you did something that's ridiculously anti-town. Sure, it may have been a mistake, but the only way to play this game is to kill off people who are playing against town. You're not a newbie, you know that if you didn't want Kenpachi lynched, then the proper way to go about is to just tell town he shouldn't be lynched. When you threw your anti-vote he only had like 5 votes on him, so he needed to almost triple that to actually get lynched. I'm pretty sure he wasn't on his way of getting lynched. I mean, it's a bitch, sometimes people fuck up, but there is also a strong possibility you didn't fuck up, and this was intentionally sabotaging town. Also, holy shit it really fucking bothers me that you guys dare complain about bad towns. Why am I not getting lynched? Why is WBG or Bum or Coag not getting lynched? It's got nothing to do with town, it's got everything to do with your own play. Man up and own your mistakes. We all fuck up. The worst player is the player that gets lynched day 1. | ||
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On November 17 2011 10:02 Lemonwalrus wrote: Go back and read Palmar's campaign to get chaoser lynched. It was built around LAL and him 'not playing like he usually does' as if everyone has exactly one method of playing mafia. If we lynch both chaoser and kenpachi day 1 and they both flip green i'm going to....well I'll just be upset. Note for later: If I happen to be wrong about chaoser and lanaia, Lemonwalrus started building a case for lynching me tomorrow very early, there is no need to state already that you want me dead based on how they flip, you could just as well say that tomorrow. Lemon's vote on me, more than anything else, is making me rethink my position. I wonder if he knows something I don't. | ||
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On November 17 2011 10:02 Nisani201 wrote: Palmar needs to get lynched. His case against chaoser is stupid, and he has barely been doing anything throughout this game. His vote on Lanaia is also scummy. ##Vote: Palmar | ||
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Chaoser: why did you throw those votes around so liberally early on? Please explain your thought process and what you wanted to achieve. If I believe your answer I'll consider laying off you. | ||
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On November 17 2011 10:14 chaoser wrote: I already did? Go read my exchange with WBG. Pressure on you from people and all of a sudden you're willing to back off when before you were deadset on it? I'm rolefishing you. Thing is, I think you happen to have one of those roles mentioned by Zona that are somehow connected with how votes are casted, I think that would actually explain your liberal voting early on. This is the reason I believe you're lying about being vanilla townie, but since you claimed that and stand by it, it's making me believe you're scum. Because you're not bad at mafia, you know that senseless throwing votes around is generally not a good strategy, you are probably fully aware of this. This is why I wanted so badly for you to explain your rash voting pattern this game. Like, I'm trying in my mind to put together your play and just a random vanilla town. And I'm sorry to say I can't actually find any reasonable explanation to your early voting that stems from just you reading the thread with a townie mindset. | ||
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It just doesn't make sense as green. | ||
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On November 17 2011 10:28 chaoser wrote: ##vote palmar Thanks yo In all seriousness though, I really do think hiroruby is the best lynch for today. hiroruby palmer/cyber_cheese forumite is the order of my suspicions At least I feel better about lynching you now, because a townie chaoser would after my in-depth explanation of the thought process that goes into voting you realize that I'm not maliciously being wrong, and look for other suspects while carefully explaining why I am wrong. Anyway, if you honestly think this I don't know what to say. | ||
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On November 17 2011 13:37 bumatlarge wrote: Coag only posted twice, but I do recall him lurking in the beginning last time I played with him. I forget if he was a scum that game. I'd be more afraid of active scum Coag, then lurking scum coag, as vets who lurk have no presence in a game with a lot of fresh faces. I would say it would be different the other way around if this was a few months ago. That's probably the most scummy logic I've seen this game. | ||
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On November 17 2011 19:34 Forumite wrote: Palmar, Cyber_Cheese, ignoring Kenpachi, Chaoser and Lanaia for a moment, where´s your strongest Scumread? If you two could pick anyone else to lynch, and lynch now, who would it be? Following that latest post of Bumatlarge's, I'd probably lynch him. Wherebugsgo asked me about Bum earlier, to which I responded him being a null read, but that is such a bad post, I see no motivation for town to post in such a manner. I do not agree with most of your reads at the moment, but you seem genuine enough in your accusations that I also don't think you need to be looked at specifically at the moment. | ||
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It's obviously harder for me to understand players I have never played with before, but he seems to be a poker player which is usually a good thing in TL Mafia (Mig is an excellent example of a poker player who is also great at mafia). And he has been making several correct calls throughout the game. He's calling people out on bullshit, notably both Bumatlarge and sabin010. He doesn't have a lot of posts, but those he does have are valuable and seem genuine and well thought out. Even if I want to kill Lanaia for bad play, and he doesn't agree, rather killing only Kenpachi, I can understand his logic behind it, and it's not scummy in any way. I have a pretty strong town read on Tyrren at the moment, assuming he is fairly new to mafia because I haven't played with him before, I have a hard time any scum could be playing this ridiculously well, so the simplest solution is that Tyrren is being smart and genuine. I like that guy, I actually want to hear more from him, but yes, I feel confident he's town. | ||
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Palmar's Notebook - Day 1
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On November 17 2011 19:55 Tyrran wrote: Ouch, Palmar post that he likes me, and i destroy him with my very next post. Sorry for that ^^'. I still stand by my analysis tho. You actually made me reconsider the stance on Lanaia. I just posted a huge post to see you attacking me | ||
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##Unvote Lanaia | ||
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Chaoser is the only person up for a lynch that's being lynched for actually being scummy and having an analysis against him. More than anyone else he should be lynched today. We gain nothing from the Kenpachi lynch regarding the people pushing him because it was just a silly mistake by Lanaia that incriminated him, and it's not like he was oozing town before that thing. We should be voting to lynch at least one person based on analysis, and that person should be chaoser. | ||
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On November 17 2011 23:19 Zephirdd wrote: Not that much related, it's just that Kenpachi defended chaoser and chaoser defended Kenpachi to death; Kenpachi's flip has more to do with Lanaia tbh. Again, I'll back off for now; given enough votes and arguments, however, I'm willing to lynch someone else IF I consider it to be the right choice(aka. people convince me). What is lacking in my case against chaoser for you to be convinced? Do you think he was trying to play optimally for town when he started spamming and voting people randomly? Do you think he is not aware that it is bad play? Read my notes on chaoser up this page. What is it that makes you believe that these accusations are not valid? | ||
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On November 17 2011 23:24 xsksc wrote: Palmar, what are your thoughts on Drazerk? While I agree that Chaos would be a decent lynch, I see Drazerk as way more suspicious at the moment and I'd rather lynch him. Drazerk has done some extremely bad things this game, the most hilarious of all was when he went through his own games go convince us he's bad at this. I mean... I have no words, his actual defense is that he is terrible at mafia? I would be fine with lynching Drazerk or even Bumatlarge. I just want another lynch outside of Kenpachi, and I have been convinced that Lanaia should be left alive for now, mostly by risk.nuke and tyrren whom I both consider town. I don't have time right now to build a case against Drazerk, and because I only think we should lynch one person outside of Kenpachi today, my attention is completely on chaoser, whom I consider very likely to be scum at the moment. We need a single lynch for today based on analysis. We've already achieved a Kenpachi lynch, and we're ruling out Lanaia for now. I think this lynch should be chaoser, but I encourage people to make a case for someone else. | ||
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On November 17 2011 23:39 Zephirdd wrote: That's a good point. Why would you setup a blue claim when you can just shut up(in the words of Palmar), unless you want to deceive people with the blue claim? I'm still... I don't know, it feels something is off. I'll place my votes by the end of the day, should there be any. I really don't want to rush it nor influence people to vote someone because everyone is voting on him(as occurred with Kenpachi). One thing that is biting me tho. Why do you want another lynch so much, Palmar? Also, random timestamp so I know the end of the day time locally. Friday, Nov 18 2:00am GMT (GMT+00:00) Influencing people is the way to play this game. I mean, I'd love if I could just vote mafia and they die, that'd be grand. But that's not how mafia works, so I try my best to influence the rest of town. You want to do this as soon as you can in order to get your message across. Remember, Europeans will probably be sleeping around lynch, so you need to establish your stance early enough for people to adjust to your reads. I want another lynch because if we settle for only a kenpachi lynch we enter night 1 and thus day 2 without having achieved anything. The Kenpachi lynch was a combination of his terrible day 1 play and a really bad move by lanaia, but it didn't get discussed enough for it to actually provide us with information. If we can settle on lynching someone through analysis, we will get a ton of discussion, which can be reviewed later in the game. I guess this is just accidental implementation of the lurker lynch idea. We lynch 1 lurker (Kenpachi) and one actual lynch candidate. I don't want to settle for only one lynch because what would that achieve? We will be having the same conversations tomorrow as we have today. | ||
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On November 18 2011 00:04 chaoser wrote: Yo palmer, why did you think kenpachi was a better lynch for a lurker lynch over sinani? Do you think sinani would be better to bring into day two than kenpachi was given the fact that kenpachi 1) Wasn't lurking anymore 2) A complex situation arose for him and not enough time was given to discuss it before he was hammered Also, what are you thoughts on hiroruby, who has voted twice, pushed none of them, made wishy-washy statements about how to implement LAL policy and has since disappeared? As you may have noticed my vote wasn't on Kenpachi until the Kenpachi/Lanaia situation, after which I wanted to lynch them both until risk.nuke/Tyrren convinced me otherwise. I frankly haven't paid any attention to the idea of a lurker lynch, I know that it came up, but I felt it didn't concern me much, at least not at this point in the game. I haven't read hiroruby's filter, Tyrren seems to think he's scum, I might have to go back and read him. I still don't think you have provided a satisfactory explanation to your early game shenanigans, so I think we should lynch you. | ||
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On November 18 2011 00:12 chaoser wrote: Not to mention, given the fact that, even though you say I'm somehow causing a ruckus in the thread, it's not actually a mess where everyone is accusing everything. The focus is clearly on me and the people who are pushing the lynch on me. So how is that a mess again? I've seen messy towns and this ain't one of them. You keep falling back to the idea that I somehow lied and that I'm making a mess in the thread or that "chaoser would never post like this". How can that even be a logical statement given the fact that you're not me and thus have no idea what I would or would not post? You've either fallen so far down the tunnel that you're blinded to the situation around you or you're pushing a lynch you know is shitty with bad logic. It's not bad logic. What's bad logic is the fact that you actually think your early posts are justifiable. I'm not complaining about the thread being mess, you're putting words in my mouth. I actually think the thread is relatively productive. I have no problem with people voting for multiple targets, notice that I myself have voted for several different people. It's the manner in which the votes are presented that irks me. You are someone I believe to be good at mafia, and I also believe you understand how to play as town, probably better than most people in this game. So are you surprised that when you do something we both know is not good play, that I feel something is up? And yes, my train of thought regarding you being guilty is pretty clear. I do not believe that you think the appropriate way to start playing as vanilla town in a game like this is to throw votes randomly without applying any kind of pressure with those votes. Obviously I am not you, and obviously I am tunneled in on you. And I will remain so until I have a satisfactory explanation of your early game. | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + It's "then" in this case Funny how sometimes it's better to not be a native speaker, because once translated then makes sense, but not than. | ||
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Can't we give ourselves one more chance Why can't we give love that one more chance Why can't we give love give love give love give love give love give love give love give love give love 'Cause love's such an old fashioned word And love dares you to care for The people on the edge of the night And loves dares you to change our way of Caring about ourselves This is our last dance This is our last dance This is ourselves Under pressure ##Vote Bumatlarge ##Vote Nisani201 ##Vote chaoser ##Vote Lemonwalrus ##Unvote Drazerk ##Unvote Coagulation | ||
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You see, I am not mafia, and I'm not worried about being lynched because you're never going to convince enough people that I am, because just like you accuse myself of, you're pushing a terrible case. I don't get it though, I'm perfectly fine with you calling my arguments bad, what I don't understand is for someone who accuses me of making logical leaps and being hypocritical, how you can allow yourself to ignore your own leaps. You say mafia like to put words in people's mouths, but you do exactly the same. You accuse me of using something called No True Scotsman, yet I see no distinction from how I applied it to how you apply it. I'm just going to admit, I'm trying really hard to be nice this game, so I'm going to refute your case in four points and let town decide. 1. Regarding that scotsman thing Palmar is theorizing what optimal town play and blaming Chaoser for not following it. I accuse chaoser of not playing optimally for being a vanilla town, and because that's his claim and his play doesn't match, therefore he must be scum How is this different from you theorizing what standard scum play looks like, and then blaming me for following it? But even ignoring how hypocritical your assumption is, I wonder how you expect us to catch mafia if not by trying to figure out which player in the game is not playing with honest intentions. This is how I have always played the game, I look for tiny things that tilt a player one way or the other, and then try to build a case around them. Funny thing is that you yourself did notice I don't apply the "optimal town play" universally, I just use it where I believe it's applicable. Again, Meta Fallocies, and a quick town tell on sinani who up to the point of Palmar's post did not post anything substantial. I don't know how Palmar can be 100% sure that Sinani is town but even if it is true (And we ignore the fact that Palmar is using s**y scumtells) it leads us to the next fallacy Sinani206's play is so far from optimal for town that it's borderline disgusting, that doesn't change the fact I deduced he wasn't mafia and did not vote for him. I did not expect sinani206 to play well, he never does. 2. Putting words in people's mouth 2) His argument is essentially, Kenpachi is scum so Lania is scum. This is another fallocy, since at the time Kenpachi hasn't flipped. No, it isn't, you're doing the very thing you yourself listed. Read the post you quoted again, at no point did I draw a line between Kenpachi's alignment and Lanaia's alignment, that's straight up false. My push against Lanaia is solely based on me wanting to policy lynch her for making a bad move. 3. Sticking to my beliefs... what? Oh looks like Palmar gets out once he realizes Lania is actually going to be lynched. What happened to 'sticking to your beliefs' and 'definatly going to lynch her' now Please tell me where I claimed that I would stick to my beliefs no matter what? I am perfectly okay with changing my mind. So you're accusing me of changing my mind... well... yeah? I did change my mind, that's actually true... I don't know how to respond the the accusation I must be mafia because I changed my mind. The only thing that is making me hesitate calling you straight up mafia LSB is the fact that it would be very weird play by mafia to post a case like this against me during the night. It's definitely far from being a proof you're just misguided town, but at least it gives you the benefit of the doubt. And yeah, I'm going to keep comparing people's play with how I would expect them to play. You think what you want about that. | ||
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Expecting town to stop playing like shit is pretty futile. Did you read sinani206's role? He could easily have claimed that and then stopped actions for one night to prove that at least he was telling the truth about his role. However, sinani206 doesn't actually want to win as town, so he chooses to troll instead. Another example is Lanaia, she's not new to mafia, and anyone who gives the issue half a thought should understand why what she did was bad. That didn't stop her. Still, there is a marked difference between the apathy of Sinani206 and for example the aggressive uselessness of Nisani201, which is why I concluded the former wasn't mafia, and the latter was. As for townies, any medics should be protecting into this group of players: Forumite Tyrren risk.nuke Palmar Wherebugsgo If we have investigative roles, we should be checking into this group of players chaoser Lemonwalrus Greymist Bumatlarge Zephirdd If we have vigilantes they should be focusing on people who are hellbent on being useless and scummy to boot. Nisani201 Drazerk xskxc etc etc Yes, i'm directing blues, what about it bitches? | ||
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In fact, the fact that you question it so genuinely is probably the most townie thing you've done the entire game. That doesn't change the fact that while we are aware you want to lynch Drazerk, you haven't done much to share any of your other reads. | ||
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Because chaoser, believe it or not, my entire case against you is based on the assumption that you're very good at mafia, I said right at the start of the game that you are a top 5 player in this game. If I happen to be wrong, I would like to minimize the damage town takes from me being wrong. Now I don't think I am wrong, but I am playing to win, not playing to prove myself awesome. You will not be useless if you're town, I trust that. So I see no reason you should be shot like any common scummy fucker, you deserve a trial and a lynch. | ||
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Like, I'm almost just as certain that nisani201 is scum, and I don't care if some hero of the town shoots him and leaves him dead in a ditch, he's not going to be useful anyway. Even if he's town nothing of value was lost. | ||
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On November 18 2011 23:55 chaoser wrote: So you're saying your case has no weight in it at all since it's entirely based on the fact that in your mind I'm not playing "good" (I think you mean well). And was that a backhanded insult lol? The case does of course have weight in it, but yes, if someone else had done exactly what you did I may have drawn a different conclusion. Why do you care so much? | ||
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On November 19 2011 00:05 chaoser wrote: Oh also, you never answered my question about why you thought kenpachi was a good lynch but sinani wasn't an equally good lynch. Cause I'm awesome, also, as risk.nuke pointed out, lynching Kenpachi was a good way of handling the Lanaia/Kenpachi situation. sinani206 didn't look like scum, I said it in the the thread that the easiest explanation was that he was town. Of course town went ahead and lynched him anyway, but hey... that's what towns tend to do. | ||
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And what are you implying with "doesn't do it"? I forgot to write an analysis on Tyrran, but I later delivered (and was pleasantly surprised by what I found). Stop posting this bullshit, I'm trying to read through everyone's filter. | ||
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On November 19 2011 00:23 xsksc wrote: Well Palmar, here's my thoughts. I think the Kenpachi/Sinani lynches were silly. The only real scum read I have right now is on Drazerk. I'm not sure about Chaoser, I don't know his meta so it's harder for me to form an opinion on his town play. There are a couple of others I'm undecided on. People I think are town : wherebugsgo palmar risk.nuke harbingerofdoom lanaia forumite People I think are scum/I'm suspicious of : prphlz chaoser drazerk lemonwalrus That's my current opinions, I have nothing solid to go on with chaoser/prphlz/lemon though. Also, I'm really surprised I made it onto your vig list. I actually made a case on someone and stuck with it, I didn't join those ridiculous bandwagons that got two of our blues killed day 1. well, to be fair, maybe it's just best if vigis hold their shots. I can relate to your list though I don't agree with all the reads (pending re-reading I'd say harbringer could be scum, and prplhz could be town). | ||
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On November 19 2011 00:25 chaoser wrote: wow...I didn't realize being 90% confident in your reads would still mean you doubt them so much that you'd want someone to be investigated instead of killed on the spot. So that must mean you're more then 90% confident that Drazerk and such are mafia? Since you asked for them to be shot? Please stop the ridiculousness already. You are active and smart enough to be properly interrogated, you're going to provide cases and you will show your true colors. Shitty people will probably just respond with oneliners and useless stuff, so they're better dealt with by vigilantes. You know this. | ||
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On November 19 2011 00:26 chaoser wrote: You didn't expect sinani to play well and yet you somehow expected Lanaia and Kenpachi to play well and because Lanaia made a mistake/didn't play well she needed to be lynched? Mind blown I don't see the problem. | ||
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On November 19 2011 00:34 chaoser wrote: And yet on day one you wanted to outright lynch me and to deny me the chance to "show my true colors" while coag gets a pass because he would "show his true colors" as the game went on. yes, and if I had managed to convince enough people to lynch you, we'd have had great discussion about it on day 1, but you were never in enough danger for that to emerge. Are you being intentionally thick chaoser? I didn't want to lynch you with no discussion, I wanted people to read my arguments and agree with me. Maybe that'll happen on day 2. | ||
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On November 19 2011 00:46 chaoser wrote: So you're saying your wanting to outright lynch me is needed to create "great discussion" and thus it was a ploy to make me "show my true colors". Then what was with saying coag would "show his true colors" and giving him a pass? Shouldn't you have also wanted to outright lynch him and then that would in turn create "great discussion" and make him show his "true colors"? Whatever, I'm going to ignore you for now. | ||
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On November 19 2011 00:46 Forumite wrote: I´m ticked off by this. Of course prplhz COULD be Town, but I don´t think it´s very likely after some of his actions around the sinani lynch and earlier. Is there something specific in his play that makes you want to defend him, have you found a solid breadcrumb among his posts, do you have a strong hunch about him, or is it something else? pending re-reading, as I already said. Notice the list-formatted posts I'm doing, I have a couple of 180's on reads in them, those are the result of me re-reading the thread. I just had a town gut on him early, remember that he was one of the people I did my initial alignment analysis on. | ||
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On November 19 2011 00:53 risk.nuke wrote: Palmar & Chaoser, what do you think of xsksc. I already gave a little bit of insight into my thoughts on him in this post here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=12326737 His opening post isn't terrible, although it is very generic. It doesn't add anything meaningful to the discussion, but I have seen townies act like this before. I would say this gives him a few scum points, but not too much. On November 15 2011 16:50 xsksc wrote: 1) I'm assuming this means focusing solely on getting 1 person lynched? If it does, we obviously want to avoid that and keep an open mind. 2) I think the multi-lynch system looks really interesting, and could be a great help if we use it properly. If we have a couple of people who are posting suspiciously then we don't have to decide which one is scummier, because we're not limited to one lynch, we can judge them seperately and lynch them both (if it comes to that). 3) We shouldn't go overboard with the use of this on lurkers, maybe lynch 1 lurker a day with it, in addition to the people we think are scum. His case against Drazerk is very weak, and I find it interesting that he can have such a strong scumread on someone who has done so little in the game. He is basically accusing Drazerk of posting one-liners which is well.. correct. Does that have anything to do with Drazerk's alignment? I'm not sure it does. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=12312721 Yes Drazerk has acted like a complete idiot this game, but generally speaking it's more likely townies act like idiots. He keeps the pressure on Drazerk, which is also interesting, and doesn't really give much thought on anything else happening in the game. Again, the tunnelvision on one thing and one thing only can be attributed to both newbie town and scum. Forumite and I have both put on pressure on him, and he hasn't slipped in his defense yet, which gives him town points. I guess the verdict on him would have to be: Slightly scummy, but not conclusive. | ||
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@DCLXVI: I wanted to lynch chaoser, but after re-reading Drazerk's posts I decided that his cocky and arrogant attitude was probably not scum, and lynching him would be a worthless affair. Notice that I do have preference on how to get rid of targets, and Drazerk isn't a terrible vigilante shot, because he has refused to contribute. I'd actually prefer a lynch being between myself and chaoser, or something in that direction, than one being between sinani206 and Drazerk, because neither suspect will actually provide anything worth reading to the game. I mean, it's obvious after this night that half of town really isn't reading the thread with the critical mindset I would be hoping they are. But assuming no one does anything stupid, this can be remedied tomorrow. | ||
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@DCLXVI: I don't even know what you'e talking about. I never claimed I was going to write an analysis on Drazerk, I even think I specifically stated that I didn't have the time to do so. | ||
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I'll help you guys, if you actually read the thread, instead of just clicking filter and pull shit out of context, here's the post in question: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=12308262 It is written as a reply to Drazerk's post, 2 posts up: On November 17 2011 07:55 Drazerk wrote: While you are here Palmar you still haven't answered this to which I reply: On November 17 2011 07:56 Palmar wrote: I forgot Drazerk, will do now Talk about trying to fabricate cases, if you're gonna accuse someone of something, at least have the decency to read his posts. | ||
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Is about me telling Drazerk I forgot to do the case on tyrran (which I then forgot again and only delivered a bit later). | ||
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On November 19 2011 08:20 chaoser wrote: lol, quote mining...sure. Anyone reading the filter, especially with ctrl+f "Drazerk" would see it as him saying "I forgot drazerk('s case), will do" as he's going to do a case analyse on drazerk. What's more interesting is that you decided you had to defend his non-existent analysis by forcing his posts to look like they were analysis to try to dispute the idea that he didn't do any analysis. I wonder what that says? Why are you reading the filter when you need to be reading the thread and applying context in order to legitimately find scum? The filter is fine, but whenever you find something you have to read the context the quote is said in. | ||
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My stance on Drazerk now is that he is and will remain very hard to read due to his refusal to contribute to the thread. This however strikes me as something it's more likely he'd do as town, but I do think he's very much capable of being an asshole as scum too. If we have something like a compulsive vigilante, he'd be a fair shot, but barring that I think we should ignore him for now. | ||
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On November 19 2011 08:27 chaoser wrote: Cause the thread is 66 pages long and it's not even day 2 yet? And the post by itself didn't need anymore context when read in the context of his posts against Drazerk. First he was for lynching Drazerk, and then not, and then he wanted to shoot him, and now I don't even know what his stance is. What the fucking point of having a schizophrenia stance on someone? It's the same as having no stance except in this one you look like you're doing something. Lesson of the day, use proper grammar, it'll help you in life as well as TL Mafia! Lesson of the day, actually read the thread instead of pulling stuff out of context to fit your pre-decided conclusion. | ||
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If you only post scum reads, you're by extension saying everyone else must be town, all I do by adding my town reads is explaining the thought process behind it for extra transparency. And directing blues seems to be working out okay, it seems we have at least one competent medic. ♥ I'm not sure what this makes you cheese, I mean, you do ridiculous shit when you're scum, but I remember your town play from cosmic horror mafia, which makes me think that using terrible logic may not be a scumtell for you. @Lanaia, I'm not going to stop referencing old games, that would be ridiculous. Removing a tool that can be used for scumhunting because you're too lazy to go back and read those games is not an option. You have three ways of handling us using meta: a) Be a good townie, and inform yourself. b) Ask for specifics, which most of us will be happy to provide though a quick summary of the situation being referenced. c) Ignore it, but give your play so far, I think you owe town at least trying. As for the lynch today, Bumatlarge's post is really weird. He could have posted that at any point during the night but chose to do it right before/after the night post. Notice that he's taking a pro-stance both towards myself and LSB, who should have died that night (♥). However, it would be premature to try to lynch Bumatlarge based on his. There is a possibility he may be the mafia godfather, but at the moment I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and move on. Now that he has taken a stance with townies, I think he cannot be much of a distraction. Thus, I suggest we take a good look DCLXVI and chaoser. I will post reasons for both later today. | ||
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On November 19 2011 20:00 Tyrran wrote: Whoa, so much happened over nigth. Sorry guys i didn't post during nigth, got home drunk last nigth. Will catch up now!. Also just because this is my first game, and I want to be sure i understood correctly, Palmar saying he got hit basically means that he claimed BulletProof rigth ? Nope, I must have been medic protected. | ||
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I'm inclined to believe the mason claim, because they're essentially tied up now, all it takes is a rogue cop or vigilante to flip/check one of them and their cute little adventure is over. This is good because they were two people who were giving us a really hard time reading them. I still stand by my day 1 read of chaoser. I think my views in that battle do not need to be clarified further, I've said almost everything that needs saying about him. ##vote Chaoser | ||
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I'm really sorry for my performance today, real life is just taking time away from me. here are my scumreads: ##Vote: DCLXVI ##Vote: chaoser ##Vote: Lemonwalrus ##Vote: RebirthOfLeGenD | ||
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On November 21 2011 06:48 chaoser wrote: It's really weird getting taken care of by the nurses that were just yesterday asking you to collect stool samples.. How cool is it that I'm wishing you dead in-game and wishing you well irl. | ||
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that's awesome, means I can actually contribute today. | ||
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a) you're wrong. b) I won't be lynched c) even in that case, there's somewhere out there a medic who can claim to save me. | ||
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On November 21 2011 08:37 Forumite wrote: You´ve said for two days that you don´t have time to reread prplhz. Make up your mind on him and state your opinion in the thread, because I´m getting tired of waiting for you. shut up. | ||
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On November 21 2011 08:44 Forumite wrote: Right. If you are busy now then at least make prplhz your first priority once you have time for Mafia again. yes, i will do. Unlike some other people in this game, when I do read up on people, I spend time on it to get it right. looking at the votes it's going to be really important for me to get prplhz right. So I'll do it on my own time. | ||
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On November 21 2011 08:54 risk.nuke wrote: Interesting thought that you try to write it of as a save-card when you're a good enough player to know that isn't true. I mean it makes sense if you're townie to try to assure that you don't get lynched but with your own words "Here's a pro-tip. We lynch all liars, always, and every fucking time. No exceptions" This definitly doesn't speak in your favor. Where did I lie? And why don't you just leave it to me to make sure I don't get lynched. Don't you worry about it. | ||
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On November 21 2011 09:03 risk.nuke wrote: Not directly lying as bending the truth. When you claimed that if a medic says they protected you that proves scum were trying to kill you. I reason that you're a good enough player to have realised that that wasn't true. No, but if a random medic claims to have protected me, the chances of me being scum are low enough that it'd actually be idiotic to lynch me. Well, anyone reading the game should be aware of this already, but meh. | ||
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The idea is that if you're scum, or even town, you might last-minute claim, which would probably lead to us lynching some ill-advised secondary opinion without much discussion. So, I don't see any harm in it for town if you just claim right now. | ||
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Warning: This post is written as a flow of conciousness, so expect some weird sentences/conclusions This guy is a notoriously difficult person to read, to the point I would almost say that lynching him generally fruitless. I skimmed through some of his previous games I could remember, and he does have a reasonable history of voting for scum early as town (see mini mafia x, bc's aa etc). But he is also surprisingly reckless as scum (see his randomly brilliant claim in PYP:I). What makes this difficult is that we can't actually call him out on things we'd normally be able to call other people out for. Just for the people who are frantically trying to apply scumtells, I'm just going to tell you straight up that your game will improve dramatically when you stop looking at what people are saying and start looking at how they're saying it. As for prplhz's initial game strategy, we see him arguing against LAL, while that's obviously retarded (LAL only works if people are under the impression it will be followed through no matter what, even if in the end that might not be the case), he does seem to have valid reasons for not going through with it. Another thing I find works in his favor in day 1 is that he's actually trying to discourage too strict policies, which is something mafia generally tries to avoid, because it's questionable behavior. What scum reasons could prplhz have for arguing against early lurker lynches? I don't really see any. His early vote for Hiroruby is also very much justifiable, because well... I personally have only twice seen people write posts on how mafia would play, and both times they turned out to be scum (see for example sandroba in CCM). So once again, there is nothing from the early game that suggests prplhz is mafia. After this, prplhz goes ahead and points out that I'm "manipulating" town. Now, I do have a problem with this, because at this point he can't have a good read on me as I had posted almost nothing. This looks like an preemptive attack on my creditability. At this point all I had done was reach a conclusion and posted a quick case about chaoser, that was almost it. This is obviously bad play on prplhz's behalf (simple statistics say there's 80% chance I'm town, so there is no need to instantly attack someone like that, unless it's backed up by something), but I'm not sure it is a scumtell, he could just as well be afraid of my scum play. Finally he goes on a capsing spree. Once again it's not really telling that he's using caps, it might just as well be overenthusiastic town. However he reaches the conclusion that sinani206 is a terrible lynch. Notice that I reach exactly the same conclusion as prplhz, and neither of us actually post a case explaining why. However prplhz, does not have any previous history of making correct calls day 1 and opposing lynches vocally like that. Actually I'd go out on a limb and say he feels uncomfortably convinced in that read on sinani206. I know it's entirely hypocritical of me to call someone out for being right (I had the pleasure of being called scum for being right in XLIV, it's a terrible feeling), but now it comes down to how much credit I give prplhz for being good at town, and I don't think I can give him this much credit. I know he's a cocky bastard (welcome to the club), but I have to look at the situation from the point of view of "what would happen if prplhz is town and he was wrong". This is the reason most townies don't explicitly go out of their way to defend other townies, because they actually don't know if they're right, and the repercussions of being wrong (defending mafia) can be pretty bad for town. Following his few random comments during the night, he has to spend the next day defending himself. Which is probably the best way to deduce his alignment, because it forces him to be more honest instead of hiding behind throwaway comments like he did on day 1. There are several things of importance. He outs his caps spamming as some kind of a plan, which may rank up there with the worst ideas ever in mafia games, but once again, it's not what people are doing, it's how that matters. Does anyone here actually think that trying this, and then explaining it as a plan is a good play as mafia? It draws attention, it is ridiculous, and makes him (rightfully) the center of attention. When mafia could just as easily ride one of the several other shitstorms going on in the thread. Another thing that really works in prplhz's favor is the fact that he doesn't lose sight of the end goal while he's being scrutinized. He has all the while through defending himself kept calling people out for bullshit and attempted to create cases. And talking about the cases. risk.nuke isn't going to be lynched. After Tyrran called him confirmed town on day 1, it's going to take a bit of a stretch to get risk.nuke lynched. This is important because if prplhz was scum trying to defend himself from the lynch, he could so easily try to build a case on someone in a weaker position, but prplhz chooses to build the case against one of the most universally accepted townies in the game. That's either really ballsy or really stupid as mafia. I don't think even myself or WBG would be cocky enough to try this, and prplhz is still not as much of an asshole as I am. I think the conclusion must be that I don't want to lynch prplhz. So yeah, for transparency and people just looking for the verdict (though I would argue that reading the entire thought process is extremely helpful) I'm going to (despite never having voted him) ##Unvote: prplhz | ||
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On November 21 2011 23:09 Forumite wrote: Palmar, your defence of prplhz around the sinani206 lynch is that he was uncomfortable defending a player he thought was Town? That´s still Anti-Town and something most Scum would do, so how is this a defence? It isn't a defense. I didn't defend him around the sinani206 case. As I stated, the post was written as I read through prplhz's posts. If I had stopped there I probably would've voted prplhz, because the two things that are really off on him, are what he did around the sinani206 lynch, and what he did to try to discredit me. I didn't stop reading, I went through, and in the end, despite that I think he's town. I have explained what I think about him, and in great detail how I came to that conclusion. I wasn't straight up defending him, because I only decided my conclusion right at the end of that post. On November 21 2011 23:11 Forumite wrote: That´s not transparency, that´s you trying to trick people into thinking the wagon on prplhz just stopped. If you want transparency, post that you think prplhz is Town with big green letters. Oh no, you saw through my masterplan, I was so sure I would trick people with that! Are you 4real bro? Anyway, if people don't agree with me... just lynch him. I'm not gonna support it because I think he is town. | ||
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On November 21 2011 23:51 Forumite wrote: So basically I caught his scummyness around the Day 1 lynch, but since he´s been very carefull in his posting and has managed to convince you to overlook the earlier misstep, even though there is no way to defend what he did. Yes. Why do you care? You're probably town too, and no matter how this goes down I'm going to look bad for it. You're not going to be swayed. Do you not want discussion? You asked for my thoughts, these are my thoughts. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm right. | ||
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On November 21 2011 23:57 Forumite wrote: I recall that this was used as an argument against Kenpachi, people said he was creating chaos because he was accusing people more than he was defending himself. During all this I haven´t found any defence of prplhz. Those who think him Town do this because of the rest of his posts, but noone can find a pro-Town reason for his actions around the sinani lynch, the best that has been presented is Palmar explaining it as prplhz not feeling comfortable to defend someone he thought was Town. You're even misinterpreting what I said: Here's the quote: Actually I'd go out on a limb and say he feels uncomfortably convinced in that read on sinani206. I'll interpret this: "I am not sure prplhz would have the guts to defend sinani206 like that as town" <--- implying he might be scum based on this. I agree that's the most scummy thing prplhz has done this game, does it change the fact that I think he's town? No. Several people have done stupid stuff, yet I don't think they're scum for it. I've said on many occasions that my main weakness as town is to tell apart bad town play and scum play, and I am going with bad town play on this one. You're not going to convince me. But feel free to go out and try to convince others. Maybe you'll prove me wrong and get to say "I told you so". | ||
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On November 22 2011 00:07 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: You are scum lol. Only mafia ever make that half assumption in an attempt to draw support from a player. Hi RoL. You're wrong, but that's okay, you're probably scum. | ||
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On November 22 2011 00:07 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: You are scum lol. Only mafia ever make that half assumption in an attempt to draw support from a player. Happy birthday yeah. And just to make you look a bit more stupid for not reading the thread, just jumping on something to try and paint me scum, here are some quotes I've written about forumite this game: I have been pretty consistent in my belief forumite is town throughout the game. | ||
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On November 22 2011 00:16 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Alright, I concede. I was wrong to say all but I'd put money on it that you are most probably scum. And thanks Kitaman. It's not what people do, it's how they do it. | ||
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On November 22 2011 00:17 Forumite wrote: Just making things clear. It sounded in your post and the unvote like you had the perfect defence for prplhz, but in the end you didn´t touch on the issue that caused all this. What I think is suspicious about you is your defence of prplhz, but that only makes you Scum if prplhz is Scum. That's wrong btw. But we won't have to worry about that until prplhz actually flips. | ||
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On November 22 2011 02:48 risk.nuke wrote: Happy Birthday RoL, Palmar, your reasoning includes too much wifom and too little facts. And considering your facts look like this "he doesn't lose sight of the end goal while he's being scrutinized. He has all the while through defending himself kept calling people out for bullshit and attempted to create cases." I guess it's each mans opinion but that doesn't ring true in my ears. I really don't like the fact that you're saying go ahead and vote for him but I won't. What is that? I have laid out the reasons as to why I don't think he's scum. Normally I would be calling everyone who doesn't agree with me a dumbass, but I'm trying my hardest to not be a dick this game. (Ask anyone that's used to playing with me, I'm playing completely differently than my normal town play). So yes, the opinions are on the table. I may even be wrong! But with all the evidence on the table, it's up to each individual to make the decision. Forumite and I looked at the same evidence and came to a different conclusion, but we've both presented our cases. As for an alternative lynch, I would suggest RebirthOfLeGenD. | ||
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On November 22 2011 02:18 DCLXVI wrote: I do not think you are mafia prplhz. Though I do think Palmar wants to see you flip town so he looks better. ##Vote Palmar ##Vote Nisani201 I would like to see both die tonight, but i highly doubt palmar will get lynched. I don't believe his claim of being protected, nor do I like the way he argues. His argument on chaoser was forced imo, and he tries too hard to lead the town. I would write about nisani, but it would just be parroting wbg. Go read wbg's case on him, I agree with most of what he says in regards to nisani except the defending chaoser bit. Does anyone notice how absurd these choices of votes are. Now unless you buy into some ridiculous theory we're a scum team and Nisani201 is attempting to bus me, your votes make absolutely no sense. You KNOW that in these two votes you're getting at least 1 townie lynched, and if I'm correct about Nisani201 being innocent you're going after 2 townies. I guess it's hard to see those things when you're not reading the thread. I find this post incredibly scummy. | ||
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On November 22 2011 04:49 risk.nuke wrote: Dcl's votes are weird. I would suggest that it'd be extremely smart to lynch him. Far more fruitful than killing prplhz. | ||
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On November 22 2011 07:23 risk.nuke wrote: Tyrren hold your ponies. I'm not sold on prplhz's claim. It doesn't actually matter now that he's been lynched. He could as well claim mafia if he is lol. | ||
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On November 22 2011 08:15 MrZentor wrote: Great, I come into the game as the most suspicious person here! As surprising as it is, Chaos is not mafia; I am not mafia. There really isn't much I can do to defend myself besides revealing my role, so until I am pressed further by more votes, I will leave it at that. So you're actually conceding that you are not vanilla town? Goddamnit I was fucking right. | ||
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On November 22 2011 09:00 DCLXVI wrote: I can confirm that I did visit tyrran last night, I wish you had roleclaimed that earlier prplhz. For what its worth I did not protect Palmar last night, leading me to doubt his claim @harbringer lots of things change when people flip, and i've been sick the past few days, so I have not put nearly as much effort in this game-day. I don't think we have 3 medics. I don't think you actually cared when you voted both me and nisani201 in one post, despite him having just posted an analysis against me. I think you're scum. You have contributed very little to the game, you have posted a ton of fluff cases that look like contributions, yet you have never actively pushed your reads. You just write a cute analysis (look at your kibibit case day 1, does anyone actually remember that?) Here's his filter, it's only 1 page, and on it there is nothing that makes me think he's town. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=282366&user=51709 ##Vote DCLXVI | ||
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It's for emphasis, I'm trying to start a bandwagon here. Don't rain on my parade. | ||
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On November 22 2011 09:09 Forumite wrote: We know you couldn´t have protected Palmar if you visited Tyrran. The fact that you confirm that you visited Tyrran suggest that prplhz is either a Scum watcher, or is telling the truth. Fuck. At this point I actually don't mind just flipping them both. prplhz is already dead. I find it really, really weird that he didn't roleclaim earlier (as I suggested). No idea what to think of it. | ||
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On November 22 2011 19:37 Zephirdd wrote: He didn't. He visited Tyrran last night, and he said himself he didn't protect you. I'm up for going on DCL tomorrow too. Also, DCL softclaimed medic and we know Kenpachi was a medic. We also had a JOAT. Does anybody else find it very unlikely that there is a third medic in the middle of all this? Assuming that there is no third medic, either DCL or Palmar lies. And not just a silly lie, but a big lie that actually hurts town. oh yeah and I told you so. Hi Zephirdd. I got protected last night. I'm not to worried about whether you believe it or not because you're actually capable of convincing yourself that this: On November 22 2011 07:44 Zephirdd wrote: Some players are contributing so much that they either are really, really, really good scum or just basic town; Is somehow relevant to the game. The amount of contributions made to the game is actually completely null and void. It's how those contributions are made that matters. I hope tomorrow will be the day people stop derping and try out a very much proven strategy through multiple games. Listen to me. | ||
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Assuming you're town (if you're scum, then my hat just goes off to you for a game well played), you need to step back and re-read the thread. I know you're still relatively new to this, but you're in the process of learning a very important lesson (some veterans will remember a particular game where I was a town vigilante where I learned that same lesson). You cannot expect perfect play of town, only when the situation warrants it can you expect people to play optimally, and even then, there's only a handful of people I'd expect to rise to the occasion and play in a logical way. Here's an important distinction: Your case against prplhz was correct, the conclusion wasn't. You proved he did something stupid. You concluded that must make him scum, that's the logical leap you went through. I know it's a bit hypocritical when I've been pushing a case on chaoser based on similar logic, but the difference here is the player. prplhz has no history of playing optimally for town, chaoser on the other hand is good enough to be held up to those standards. | ||
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On November 04 2011 11:44 Zona wrote: If a player is hit during the night, but survives, that particular player will receive a message in the following format: I see no indication that the doctor gets told that he successfully protects someone, however, the doctor should be able to deduce that he did seeing as I claimed the hit. | ||
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How does everyone like my new plan "Just do whatever Palmar tells us to do"? Everyone in favor go ahead and give me a ##Fistpound | ||
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On November 23 2011 01:36 Tyrran wrote: My guts keep telling me you are scum, my brain keeps telling me you are town. I wish i knew why. Because I'm an intelligent asshole. You hate me, but I'm right. | ||
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On November 23 2011 01:30 Nisani201 wrote: Yes, minions, come to Master Palmar. Obviously he is right in everything he says and does. I was right about prplhz, were you? | ||
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On November 23 2011 01:54 Kibibit wrote: It's less that, and more Day1 sucks dick for trying to use logic, and beyond Day 1 I've been a touch preoccupied. That's wrong. | ||
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On November 23 2011 02:25 Lanaia wrote: I hate night. I've always hated the night. I just get so anxious, you know? It's not like your astonishing contributions to the game leave you in any danger of being killed. | ||
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On November 23 2011 12:44 Nisani201 wrote: Do you realize that there is no actual case against me? I have been using logic and reason this entire game. That is why I am voting DCLXVI. Think before you vote. I know you like Palmar but you have to realize that he's manipulating you. No, you're not allowed to vote for a bunch of townies, then build cases against more townies, and claim you're using logic and reason. Shut up. About RebirthOfLeGenD, as much as it pains me to say it, that despite his awful play so far, there is no reason to believe he is scum, unless you believe Hiroruby was the mafia godfather. So I'm not willing to look at any case against him today. I would much rather we focus on chaoser (or his replacement), 666, or perhaps even nisani201, who I'm starting to lean scum on again. Other potential candidates include sabin010 and xscsc (or whatever his name is), who haven't contributed anything of value so far. | ||
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Coagulation - nothing so far. I suggest we lurker lynch him today. Cyber_Cheese - confirmed to have a role, has indirectly denied being medic DCLXVI - confirmed to have a role, claimed medic Forumite - nothing, led the lynch on prplhz GreYMisT - reminds me of youngminii RebirthOfLeGenD - unlikely to be mafia, useless though Kibibit - nothing Lanaia - terrible or scum, don't know which, I'm leaning terrible Lemonwalrus - no clue Nisani201 - asshole, and bad, hopefully scum so I won't have to policy lynch him day 1 in future games for bad. Palmar - town Sabin010 - nothing Tyrran - has been pushing reasonable stances throughout the game Zephirdd - no idea bumatlarge - unlikely to be mafia, completely worthless atm though MrZentor - vanilla town, offered to roleclaim despite having already done so? hyshes - confirmed town through Drazerk's death wherebugsgo - semi-active and is at least pushing sensible stuff, which could be interpred xsksc - nothing to go on really. About the night hits: Yesterday only 2 hits happened. One killed LSB and another hit me. Today we have 3 hits. This is interesting, because it's definitely possible that one of them is a vigilante hit, although it is unlikely, given the choice of targets. No one actually suspected risk.nuke (except prplhz, and he shouldn't be listened to) and HoD, and Drazerk was a claimed mason. I have no reason to believe any of our vigilantes are that bad. | ||
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On November 23 2011 18:46 Forumite wrote: Palmar could also be a one-shot veteran, which means he was still shot, but survived despite there not being any medics involved. I have already explained that there is no mechanic in my role that allows me to survive night hits. | ||
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(I think putting it in quotes stops ZBot from picking up on it) ##Vote: Forumite ##Vote: Kenpachi ##Vote: Palmar ##Vote: Drazerk ##Vote: wherebugsgo ##Vote: prplhz ##Vote: DCLXVI ##Vote: RebirthOfLeGenD RoL, WBG and Forumite all look pretty good to me btw. | ||
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Everyone has a role. | ||
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I can only write so much of your shit off as bad. | ||
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On November 23 2011 19:05 wherebugsgo wrote: I would believe those are all townies. On November 23 2011 19:47 wherebugsgo wrote: also ##vote Forumite for being repeatedly thick/repeatedly pushing stupid lynches. Stop it. Really. It's starting to get annoying. If you're actually town, take your head out of your ass and look at what you're doing. You flopped quite fast on that | ||
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But I think Zona put some mechanics to prevent that into the game. | ||
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On November 23 2011 20:35 wherebugsgo wrote: you never explained what makes bum unlikely to be scum. Read through my filter, and think before you talk. | ||
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Anyway, I want to talk about nisani201, chaoser v2.0 and perhaps some of the lurkers. | ||
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On November 23 2011 23:09 Forumite wrote: I reread the first day, that was enough for now. What do you think about Zeph? Pending re-reading, I have no reason to believe he's scum. I suggested a plan that involves "listen to Palmar" today. I think we should put that in motion. For the moment, I suggest we lynch nisani201. | ||
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On November 24 2011 00:34 MrZentor wrote: Nisani hasn't done anything helpful and if you read through his posts, they appear scummy. ##Vote: Nisani201 No, you don't. Now, I would like you to write a big post on the current situation of the game. Additionally, I would like you to either retract or confirm chaoser's claim that you are vanilla town. | ||
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On November 24 2011 01:17 Nisani201 wrote: If I get lynched, and flip town, will you guys kill Palmar/WBG for me? If you are town I will seriously consider not playing with you again. You're not allowed to be an asshole until you stop being wrong. | ||
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On November 24 2011 05:25 Cyber_Cheese wrote: He looked relatively townie and hadn't had anyone accuse him, while using solid logic. He was going to have a lot of town sway leading into day 2, and I wanted to have some idea of whether it was misdirection or not. And you convinced yourself that was good logic? | ||
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I will hand out my suggestions in a timely manner, I do have to re-read a few people to settle down. I am alarmed by your inclination of believing every blue claim there is out there Tyrran. Let's take for example Cyber-cheese and DCLXVI, they were put in a position where not claiming a blue role would mean they're lying and should be lynched. So, neither of their claims should be taken for granted. I am not saying that we should outright lynch one or two of them, but for example Cyber-cheese's claim of tracking you sounds a little absurd, doesn't it? I mean, why would someone hunting for mafia on day 1 track a player that's pretty much accepted as a very likely town? It's just food for thought. | ||
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On November 24 2011 21:32 hyshes wrote: I'm willing to lynch nisani today. If he is not scum, atleast 3 out of wherebugsgo/palmar/tyrran/RebirthOfLeGenD should be. Vote: Nisani201 That logic doesn't hold up. Shape up, you're in the prestigious position of being confirmed town, don't squander the opportunity through idiocy. | ||
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Forumite, that's some of the worst logic I have ever seen. | ||
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My bad. He's dead then. Nothing of value has been lost. | ||
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I actually don't care, I want him dead either way, for terrible. I will read sabin010 later, I'm off to enjoy an evening of turkey and football. | ||
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Seriously, fuck off you moron. Go die, I hate you. If you're town you don't even fucking try. What a useless sack of shit. | ||
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##Vote MrZentor | ||
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Are you surprised? Read your fucking filter, it's like compilation of TL Mafia's worst posts ever. And now that you somehow keep pointing your finger at me, means you're probably town, because it'd be retarded for mafia to clear me that way. Seriously, I think it'd be better if I just stop playing games where you're playing. You're an idiot, and an asshole about being an idiot. | ||
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Forumite Kenpachi Palmar Drazerk Wherebugsgo prplhz RebirthOfLeGenD DCLXVI Maybe 1, 2 at most scum in there, but potentially none. How do you feel about that? | ||
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Thank god you'll be dead tomorrow, maybe we can salvage this shit. | ||
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##Vote Lanaia At this point I'm just voting people who have done inexcusably stupid stuff. | ||
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Did I somehow convince myself that checking my townread on day one as tracker was a good idea, which would potentially tell me nothing? Like just imagine if Tyrran happened to be a cop, and investigated LSB or me night one, and then mafia hits us too... You would have had basically a guilty check on someone who is likely town? Don't you think that's a bit retarded? Are you really that dumb? Or are you just scum. | ||
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On November 25 2011 07:51 Cyber_Cheese wrote: Your scenario works with any person in the game. Which makes checking your town read incredibly dumb. You never, never, never, never, never, never check your town reads. | ||
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##Vote Palmar I have no interest in playing with people who don't want to try. I am sorry for signing up for this game. | ||
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On November 15 2011 20:44 Forumite wrote: Kenpachi claimed Townie, but LSB doesn´t want us to take the Kenpachi claim seriously. My problem here is that either Kenpachi lied, or he just told Scum not to nightkill him, because it would be no use. If we are going to go by the LAL policy, then either Kenpachi lied or acted Pro-Scum, so why should we back off? Kenpachi does this every game, then we can ignore his claim, but what I don´t agree with is LSB promoting LAL wanting to ignore the claim, even if it is meta This is terrible. You were told Kenpachi does it every time, you acknowledge that would lead us to ignoring it, and yet you attack LSB for reaching the logical conclusion of ignoring the claim? Don't ever make a call like that again. On November 17 2011 09:13 Forumite wrote: The Chaoser bandwagon is forming up too quickly. I don´t like it. Sure he´s making a mess about everything, but a mess that generates a lot of reads,. I´m expecting/demanding much from Chaoser tomorrow if he survives, but I´m not going to help kill him today. This is bad logic. You cannot just assume that since something is happening quickly it must be bad. You have to look at HOW it's forming. I laid out pretty solid reasons as for why I was sure chaoser was lying about his vanilla townie claim. Even now, Zentor is being really vague and useless about the claim. This wagon was forming for good reasons. I want to mention that you later supported a much dumber and yet equally fast wagon on sinani206. Clearly it's not a universal rule that fast wagons are bad in forumite-world. On November 18 2011 12:00 Forumite wrote: WBG, I´d take a look at players who were on only one of the lynches, players who posted that both were scummy, but only voted on one of them, players who had allready gotten one Townie killed and didn´t want to attract too much attention by voting on two. Players who hang back and blame others for the mislynches. Those who voted for both victims look bad, but I think they look like bad Townies. That´s my opinion at least, that Scum are the ones avoiding the second lynch. If they dared to lynch sinani, then it wouldn´t have taken so long to get those final votes. This is bad logic, the number of bandwagons people join has nothing to do with their alignment. It's only how they join the bandwagons that's actually relevant. It doesn't matter if it's one or two wagons, it's the reasons given. Calling out people who oppose lynches and blame stupid townies for them is even more dumb. I do that all the time as town, because unlike most people I actually read the thread. On November 18 2011 20:16 Forumite wrote: Yeah, I know I´ve done a few things that make me look bad in this game. I guess that means I´m improving my game a bit, if I can identify my own mistakes. I knew sinani would most likely flip Town, but I still thought it was worth it then and now. Never vote on your townreads forumite, Never do it. If we weren't dealing with the problem of everyone being retarded in this town, you should be autolynched for that comment alone. Voting for your townreads is retarded. It's interesting your entire case against prplhz on day 2 was about him being too late with the defense, when what you did here was 10x worse. On November 20 2011 00:14 Forumite wrote: That together with taunting the player he says he wanted to save but didn´t, it all scream scum to me. If he really wanted to save sinani then he would have tried, then seen the final hammer as a failure, not a victory worth taunting sinani for. The game doesn't work that way. It's not a scumtell unless done in a very specific way to be angry at townies who get themselves lynched. You do this all through your play, you try to apply scumtells, when that's not how you should be using them. It's not what people are saying that matters, it's how they're saying it. On November 20 2011 09:00 Forumite wrote: This is the kind of play I would expect from scum, and I think you would have used this argument sooner if I hadn´t called you out during the night. If Town mislynch on their own, then Scum makes the most of it, both by getting Towncred by staying away from the lynch, and also throw Town into confusion by pushing whoever was on the lynch. Once again, not a scumtell unless done in a terribly scummy way. I did agree in my big analysis on prplhz that it was bad, but it's not enough to hang him. Staying away from town lynches is what two groups of people do. Townies who use their head and scum. If this logic got applied to me I'd be day 2 lynched every game, because I oppose stupid lynches all the time. On November 21 2011 23:11 Forumite wrote: That´s not transparency, that´s you trying to trick people into thinking the wagon on prplhz just stopped. If you want transparency, post that you think prplhz is Town with big green letters. That's just straight up dumb. I hope you read this again now, and realize you're terrible. On November 22 2011 07:56 Forumite wrote: Did you get any information on how medics work, if they and/or the one they protect is informed if a nightkill was attempted and prevented? It's in the OP, dumbass. On November 25 2011 08:12 Forumite wrote: Why doesn´t it make sense? If Nisani was Scum, wouldn´t Scum have killed Palmar or WBG, or someone else actually out to lynch palmar, in order to get some pressure off of him? Shooting those NOT pushing Nisani means that Nisani dies, it´s simple and direct, and if Nisani is Town then it´s also Pro-Scum to do this, because 5/6 of the day was spent dealing with Nisani. We always lynch our first 12 hours before deadline, then rush secondary lynches, so one obvious target for the day means Town basically waste the day. Speculating about mafia kills is stupid don't do it again. What's interesting is that Forumite has done at least one thing that should warrant an autolynch and he keeps pushing bad lynches. I'm not actually interested enough in the game to read up on Zephirdd, but I didn't have a scum read on him. Does this mean Forumite is scum? or just terrible? It's impossible to make the distinction, which is why I always support policy lynching people for doing dumb shit. Thankfully, I won't have to deal with it. It's your problem now. | ||
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On November 25 2011 19:31 Cyber_Cheese wrote: Following you blindly would be much closer to not trying. Actually kinda true this game. Following me blindly would be stupid because I tend to think people who do anti-town moves, are probably anti-town, but that means all the following people would be dead: Bumatlarge Coagulation Cyber_Cheese Forumite Sabin010 DCLXVI Kibibit Lemonwalrus xsksc RebirthOfLeGenD You see the problem? They can't all be scum, so a part of them is just playing badly. For every single person in that list I can give a pretty good analysis of why they must be either terrible, not trying, or scum. I'm not joking though, just lynch me, I've done all the good I can do for town this game. I am unable to continue due to frustration. ##Vote Forumite | ||
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Something like ##Vote Cyber_Cheese ##Vote Forumit ##Vote Sabin010 ##Vote DCLXVI ##Vote xsksc Let's leave the others for now. Can I request Coagulation be modkilled for inactivity? In addition Kibibit should be pretty close to a modkill. | ||
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I consider it terrible failure to, for example, not have been able to stop the lynch on prplhz on day 2. I used good logic to defend prplhz You used bad logic to attack prplhz And you managed to convince town over me. This means I failed. I should have used bad logic to defend him, or something. It's pretty clear that this game I have failed at catering to my audience. I know I have been spoiled in the past, playing in games with multiple people who think, but that's not the case this game. I still haven't figured out how to convince people who don't like reason and logic. There must be a trick to it because those people always end up voting something, but I can't seem to put my finger on what triggers it. | ||
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On November 25 2011 20:14 xsksc wrote: I have a 100% sure reason to believe Palmar is town, it's not just a guess. rofl, look at that. | ||
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On November 25 2011 20:21 Forumite wrote: Read his filter until I´m convinced? Really? Is "Palmar is Town" a big truth that can not be contradicted? You know he´s been doing a few weird things in the thread, this latest with giving up obviously the biggest one, and I´m not comfortable with letting it go. Palmar has acted Town, but he´s also been leading Town to absolutely nothing, we´re still no closer to finding Scum. I want to make sure that Palmar isn´t deceiving us, instead of just hope for the best and follow him blindly. Maybe the reason we're not closer to finding scum is people listening to you instead of me? | ||
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On November 25 2011 20:24 Forumite wrote: You don´t have much hope of Nisani flipping Scum, do you? Depends how you define scum. If we use the definition "A player who increases the mafia's chance of winning" then, he's 100% scum. | ||
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On November 25 2011 20:26 xsksc wrote: It's to do with my role. I don't want to claim yet unless I have to. What's so funny about that? I want to know if I should believe your claim. Can you give any additional information about your role? I'm actually suggesting a mass-claim now that we have like 8 townies who have claimed anyway. It's not like mafia is lacking targets now. xsksc will be the first to claim. (I have a good reason for this). After that, everyone claim please. do NOT hold off your claims, as that's incredibly scummy. I will claim immediately after xsksc has claimed. | ||
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List all your actions, list any mechanics associated with the role, and list any additional information given about your role by the host. | ||
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On November 25 2011 21:03 wherebugsgo wrote: what's the point of this mass claim? We have a doctor, a tracker, a double voter, a detective, a "partially vanilla townie", a mason who have all claimed. That's 1/3 of the game already. Mafia already has plenty of targets to kill, but we have no additional information. | ||
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On November 25 2011 21:11 Forumite wrote: I´ll claim together with Palmar and xsksc when they claim, not before. A Massclaim is a massclaim, it´s all or nothing, not just most claiming. I'm claiming right after xsksc, that should get the ball rolling. | ||
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I can alignment check people I voted for on the previous day. This is the reason I caught so quickly on chaoser's random voting thing, and became sure he wasn't town. Night 1 I investigated Bumatlarge and received a Town-aligned result Night 2 I investigated RebirthOfLeGenD and received a Town-aligned result. Both results I left with pretty damn obvious breadcrumbs "Unless you think X is godfather, I don't think we should lynch him". | ||
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! Claim, bitch. In full. | ||
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On November 25 2011 21:43 Cyber_Cheese wrote: If you actually considered that a good reason to still want to kill Forumite, your play is worse than most of town. I claimed in full. I left breadcrumbs by specifically using the word track where I could day 1/night 1, and after Prplhz questioned me about Tyrran. Show me those breadcrumbs. Tell me the name of your role. | ||
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Your play doesn't exactly suggest you're town. | ||
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On November 25 2011 22:33 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: I am a VT. Why do you want to kill MrZenter? On November 15 2011 22:23 chaoser wrote: We are the 99% I am also green townie <3 LAL is stupid On November 17 2011 09:53 chaoser wrote: Let's bet. If I'm vanilla townie you have to sing me a song and post it in the forum. If I'm not I'll do it. Want to take it? On November 22 2011 08:15 MrZentor wrote: Great, I come into the game as the most suspicious person here! As surprising as it is, Chaos is not mafia; I am not mafia. There really isn't much I can do to defend myself besides revealing my role, so until I am pressed further by more votes, I will leave it at that. On November 25 2011 05:14 MrZentor wrote: I think we need to kill a mafia badly and I am mostly if not entirely partially vanilla town. | ||
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On November 25 2011 22:07 Palmar wrote: Show me those breadcrumbs. Tell me the name of your role. Are you still reading through your posts trying to figure out what you can pass off as breadcrumbs? Or are you trying to decide what role-name you should claim? | ||
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On November 26 2011 00:41 Forumite wrote: Confirmed Townie or not, I´d still appreciate if you provide your reasoning. Well I provided reasons why you're bad, that should be enough. If you're not bad, you're scum. Which is it? | ||
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On November 26 2011 18:33 bumatlarge wrote: holy shit why did i think palmar might be scum over this guy lol Bum, your play this game is so bad I want to lynch you despite having an innocent check on you. | ||
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Don't give me this bullshit, you're dead tomorrow DCLXVI At the people wondering about WBG: He can well be scum, ezpz, but up until now we have been lynching retarded townies, and he has been making non-retarded statements. He's great scum, and the only way to figure out his alignment is to put him up against the wall later in the game. Until then, I'm gonna consider him town. Similar logic applies to tyrran. The fact they've been trying to help town makes them look town. | ||
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On November 27 2011 07:31 xsksc wrote: Palmar, do you agree with WBGs plan? I haven't given it a ton of thought, but yes. | ||
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I already claimed in full. | ||
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Cyber_cheese is guilty, I checked him last night. We probably need to lynch two people though, so let's lynch the guy who claimed miller. ##Vote Cyber_cheese ##Vote DCLXVI | ||
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This is why we should always lynch people who do stupid shit. Problem is when half of town does stupid shit. | ||
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I'm too tired for this. Cyber_Cheese, please shut up for the rest of the day, you will be lynched and we need to discuss other stuff. | ||
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On November 27 2011 16:07 Lemonwalrus wrote: Seriously, if he flips town and his role pm confirms that he knew he was a miller I honestly think Palmar might come to my house and hurt me. That being said I'm almost sure the three I voted for are scum. Can't really think of who the final one is though. I wanted to say bum, but his last vote doesn't fit with that. I think I'm going to take a long look at Zephirdd. No it's okay, you'd just be joining the long list of people who deserved to be killed. Just for the record, what you just did SHOULD mean we have to auto-lynch you now, because it's so mafia favored. | ||
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##Vote: DCLXVI ##Vote: GreYMisT ##Vote: Lanaia ##Vote: Lemonwalrus ##Vote: Sabin010 ##Vote: Tyrran ##Vote: Zephirdd ##Vote: bumatlarge You guys are clearly all ok with me voting everyone now, right? We have 2/4 scum dead by tonight. tonight we'll be in a 2 vs 6 situation, after the night I'm guessing it's gonna be either 2v4 or 2v3. This means that we need to figure out the two players who are mafia. I'm very much leaning towards Bumatlarge being scum. | ||
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##Vote: DCLXVI ##Vote: GreYMisT ##Vote: Lanaia ##Vote: Lemonwalrus ##Vote: Sabin010 ##Vote: Tyrran ##Vote: Zephirdd ##Vote: bumatlarge | ||
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DO NOT HAMMER HIM. | ||
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antivote sabin010, do NOT hammer him | ||
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I think 2v6 is a good point to enter the night., I think risking sabin010 being town is very dumb. | ||
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On November 28 2011 22:51 Sabin010 wrote: Vote: Palmer Thanks for returning to the thread. Seeing as I'm confirmed town, does this mean you're scum? | ||
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The bot will screw that up (Pálmar is my RL name) | ||
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On November 28 2011 23:11 Sabin010 wrote: Vote: Cyber_Cheese Vote: DCLXVI Vote: GreYMisT Vote: Lanaia Vote: Lemonwalrus Vote: Palmar Vote: Sabin010 Vote: Tyrran Vote: Zephirdd Vote: bumatlarge Don't do that. Unvote them all now. Only I get to do that because I'm confirmed town. | ||
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If you are a Miller, there are two schools of thought about optimal play: - The first school of thought is that you should claim immediately, ideally in your opening post. This ensures that the Cop will not waste an investigation on you. It becomes more likely that you will be lynched or shot by a Vigilante, however; otherwise, it would be too easy for Mafia to fakeclaim Miller as well. - The second school of thought is that you should not claim, but should play in such a way as to not get investigated; ideally, you would get yourself killed at Night. If investigated, however, you should expect to get lynched. Neither of them involves being useless for half the game then deciding to randomly claim miller at some point. I probably wouldn't have even checked this guy. | ||
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I am pretty sure Bumatlarge is mafia. I've been suspicious of him since day 1, but I checked him that night and got innocent back. We know mafia godfather hasn't flipped, although we have no guarantee one is in the game, I would still consider it very likely. I will post a full case before the night is over. I need to make up my mind between lemon, zephirdd and greymist. | ||
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I need to bullshit check that at some point. | ||
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On November 23 2011 08:29 Lemonwalrus wrote: How come palmar didn't bold the first # in his fistpound? Is it paranoid of me to ask that question? Someone hold me. explain please, you knew this had nothing to do with me or my role at this point. | ||
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On November 30 2011 06:51 Lemonwalrus wrote: a joke? Not a good one...but there you have it. That's actually the correct answer. You did flip your read on me, that's correct. You weren't vocal enough with it though, but it's not enough to incriminate you. Depending on how the night ends, I would suggest only killing Bumatlarge tomorrow. | ||
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Here's an assignment. Write me an essay on why you're not scum, and please, go back and quote your own posts and explain the reasoning behind them. I think you are the most likely to flip scum out of the remaining people, so if I were you I'd do something about it. | ||
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You are allowed to be dumb for one night, not the entire game. I need to read more. | ||
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Based on who survives, kill bumalarge, and then do the work on the final guy. | ||
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I tried to approach it like a small game, where I assume everyone is going to be involved and actually play the game properly, instead of approaching it for what it is, a huge game filled with trolls and players who have no interest in playing the game. There were a grand total of maybe 5 people actually trying to win the game as town. Tyrran, Me, Bugs, risk.nuke and LSB. Perhaps we can give HarbringerOfDoom and prplhz the benefit of the doubt. Sadly, chaoser decided to troll the game hardcore, without thinking about the consequences of it. Obviously I got tunneled in on him pretty bad. I would probably have dropped the case completely if MrZentor hadn't fucked around with the claim in the end. The multi-lynch and no vigi system was terrible. We had no reliable way of clearing out lurkers. Every TL town over the size of 16-ish should have a non-limit vigilante to shoot lurkers and useless people. It's very hard to play when like 5-6 townies earn themselves an auto-lynch if town is playing correctly, I'll list some of them up. DCXLVI: Claiming miller. If you're gonna claim it, you claim it in your first post. If not, you shut up until someone waltzes in with a guilty claim. You need to be EXTREMELY pro-town if you're a miller. Why didn't you play like Tyrran and Bugs and risk.nuke and HoD? Miller claims should ALWAYS be autolynched if they're not 1st post on day 1. Lanaia: Just fucking say something when you're gonna anti-vote kenpachi. Or better yet, don't use the anti-vote and just give us reasons why we're doing the wrong thing. If you used your head for half a second you would've seen where your vote would lead. LemonWalrus: You basically have what constitutes an innocent check on me night 1. That's when you start supporting me and my group of people. Not from the shadows, but loud and up front. We needed more people to fight the stupidity and you could be sure I wasn't scum. Why the hell not actually contribute and help? Nisani201: Should be autolynched for being the dumbest person to ever play mafia games. Nothing he ever says or does increases the town's chance of winning. Lynching him day 1 is actually optimal play for town in any situation. xsksc: All you had to do to clear yourself perfectly and contribute to the game was to support me right on day 2. We had more than enough confirmed townies. When you know a faction is town drive, you align yourself with it. I want to re-iterate: By day 2, We could have had a faction of like 10 confirmed/semi-confirmed townies in WBG/Me/Tyrran/HoD (through analysis/obvious town) prplhz (by extension, I knew he was innocent) hyshes/drazer (by mason claim) xsksc (by doc save on me n1) LemonWalrus (by rolecheck on me being alignment cop n1) Lanaia (because we decided that her being mafia would be retarded) If everyone in this list would have contributed to the game, aligned themselves with the faction obviously being driven by town we would have steamrolled this game. But instead, we had to deal with people not applying themselves to the game, giving vague statements and jumping terrible bandwagons. I'm not gonna try to push all the blame on everyone else. I apparently still manage to always be controversial even when I'm playing obviously pro-town, get 2 innocent checks (save/rolecheck) on me night 1 etc. This means there is something wrong with my town play. If I didn't suck at mafia everyone in the game would always know I'm town on day 1. I clearly need to be doing something differently for people to actually sit down and listen to me. Last but not least, disappointing performance from Bumatlarge, he's actively not putting in any effort. that shit sucks. | ||
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On November 30 2011 18:57 syllogism wrote: I'm so sick of "veterans" who don't post enough to even establish their own innocence OR support the right people This is the core of the issue. Way too many mafia players are afraid of being wrong. There is nothing wrong with being wrong, if you give ample reasoning as for why you're wrong, and are willing to listen to logic as to why your logic was bad. Everyone makes bad calls. But you need to pick sides. And you need to be willing to reconsider which side you're on. You will see circles form in games of people who trust each other. If you see this, you should do research into why they trust each other, or simply ask them. They will provide reasoning. You need to support someone. The worst town play is to stay in your own corner and not trust anyone. Remember that statistically you can randomly buddy up with someone and he has 70-80% chance of being town. Using a bit of analysis increases that value. What this means is that no town can afford players who don't commit themselves. Sadly we have to balance mafia games around people who don't intend to actually play. | ||
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On November 30 2011 19:34 Tyrran wrote: GG Scum. First of all, thanks a lot Zona for hosting the game. The setup was really great, and i overall had a lot of fun playing ( even if we lost). Cool abilities, cool background story ( Steamship = Spaceship obviously =p ), i'll be looking forward for the next games you host. Overall we had a few good players but we had a really hard time sticking together as town. Lots of people were just votin randomly, and didnt really think enough. I somehow hoped that we could create a group town around me/palmar/WBG, but we were unable to have town follow us. From my part, i think i did OK for a first forum based game, even if the only scum i found was Sabin010, and he got modkilled anyway. Hopefully i'll get better on the next games. You played very well and I hope to play again with you in the future. | ||
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On November 30 2011 19:07 xsksc wrote: Yeah, I was awful, but I wasn't trolling or not taking it seriously, just bad. I was pretty nervous about posting much, we'd already lost blues and I was scared of accidently saying something stupid or revealing I guess, lol. My plan was keep you alive and try not to die... I definitely should have posted loads more. Being nervous and being afraid of being wrong are tools mafia exploits. When I'm playing scum I will undermine trust in town as hard as I can. I will bus partners at the right moments to discredit townies. I will viciously attack arguments to make people doubt themselves, and I will try to break up any attempt at forming a town group. You can only imagine how glad mafia is when town does this all for them, so they can just sit back and enjoy the ride. | ||
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On November 30 2011 20:25 Zephirdd wrote: Now I officially have 100% winrate on TL woohoo! This was fun. It was fun. The fact that I was newbie played to my side very hard. AND Palmar going claim ALL the roles thing basically gave us the game because of Grey's powers lololololo I claimed that medic roleblocker thing(apparently it's called a 'jailer' not a 'restraining doc', but it works too heh) to do exactly what I did to Lanaia: so she confirms that I'm town when I roleblocked her. Yeah, we just had to sit back and watch most of the time. The first few posts where I attacked chaoser were actually directed by Cyber_Cheese, not myself. My personality could be seen only after that bs. Also, I love how at some point wbg nailed us all. He never gave good explanation('lol you're scum; if you think this is town you are sad'), but it's awesome how he had that intuitive read I'll definitely play much more Mafia with you guys, I loved it. I just think you are all too aggressive, but I guess it's part of the spirit of the game heh :D Please play more, you did well for a first time mafia player, but it's always easy to get off your first scum game, because people will ignore you. and yes, Greymist's role was bullshit, Mass-claiming should be a viable town strategy. It's retarded to have mechanics directly punishing it. It should be punished by mafia having good fake-claims. (which is also why I hate role cops and detectives, but like alignment cops, mafia can easily fake those). | ||
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That's not a good position to be in, and does not allow you to come in and tell townies how they should or should not have been playing. | ||
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On December 01 2011 01:08 chaoser wrote: plays bad with shitty reads that caused chaos, blames others for playing bad thus causing your shitty reads. that's a meme right? Yawn. Not meta, just not optimal play. I expect some townies to play optimally. Anyway, it is irrelevant, your alignment was not of any big concern that game because you had no chance of joining that town group if you aligned yourself. I'm not blaming you, I specifically said that I had much to improve upon, that doesn't mean I can't point out things that went wrong. You made yourself a target on day 1. That's always an issue. | ||
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On December 01 2011 02:15 chaoser wrote: You do realize that any definition of "optimal" is flawed because there's no way to measure that right? Not to mention, at any point in time, to expect people to play optimally is inherently flawed due to outside world factors. If you mean everyone should play in one specific manner that you consider optimal than I'd rather not play mafia anymore cause that's just silly. Coag and kenpachi should clearly just stop playing if people are going to lynch them straight up day 1 cause they are no where close to "optimal" play even though they're boss at not only catching mafia but shooting the shit out of them the meme was aimed at WBG btw. The way you both approached day 1 was so flawed with the tunneling and playing solely based on some misconceived notion about my "meta", not to mention the excessive tunneling on me. I was waiting and waiting for you guys to be like ok, I'm tunneling, I need to reassess and you guys never did it, which was ridiculous. You need two people to dance that tango on day 1/2 and you and WBG directly contributed to that chaos by tunneling. So don't go around saying people played bad and caused chaos and fucked up your reads when you were the one playing horribly and played an equal part in causing said chaos (addressed to WBG, obviously) Arguing this is pointless. Your number one responsibility is to establish your innocence. If you become in danger of getting lynched at any point in the game, you're the problem. I fuck up as town too. See, I almost never get lynched as town. I have twice in like 14 games or something been lynched as town, once because I was completely new and thought claiming third party was a good play, and once in a weird situation I don't want to talk about as that game is in process. If everyone who played town, played in a way that they don't get lynched, then town would win all the time. And I don't expect Kenpachi and Coagulation to play optimally or logically or well. I hate playing with them and I would have no problem with killing them night 1 in all games I play. I heard you were good, so I expected good play from you. Look at Tyrran, everyone was 100% sure he was town night one. That was brilliant play. WBG and I deduced each other's alignments really fast and started forming a circle. Problem is, early reads are often wrong. I have no issues with people giving me a hard time night 1, because I know 90% of he time it's not like it's going to get me lynched. You had to sub out, which was unfortunate, I look forward to playing with you again, because if you had kept up your play you'd have ended up on the right side. MrZentor didn't really do anything in the game after you left, so his lynch was almost policy. Expect wrong reads, I could well have been mafia trying to push a mislynch, just make sure you cannot in any possible way get lynched, and it's not a problem at all. | ||
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On December 01 2011 03:55 Lemonwalrus wrote: I suck at mafia. The only time I ever did what might be considered well was when I was scum and had teammates directing my actions. Although I'm willing to blame excessive business for part of the inactivity portion of my suck in this game. I think I'm going to take a break from mafia or only join smaller games until I know for sure I can commit the time and effort to pull my own weight. I don't know... you seem to be capable of posting reasonably when you put your mind to it. I think more activity, and more active discussion with players would help you a lot. Despite me complaining about people doing incorrect plays, that simply means there is room for improvement. No one in this game has failed as colossally as I did when I started playing. Try to bounce ideas off other players when you're playing. Throw something out there, and ask for feedback. That's one of the best ways to improve and it gives other a read on your alignment, | ||
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On December 01 2011 05:20 chaoser wrote: lol, i never got lynched? I doubt you could have gotten me lynched had I not gotten sick. I don't think you've EVER gotten me lynched. I also haven't been day 1 lynched since forever. And I'm pretty sure I've carried more games than you have. Go read some mafia history kkk? And you didn't address the part about the elitist/i am better/holier than thou attitude I see. I'd add some more vitriol but I wouldn't want to mean so I'll just politely ask you to go headbutt a bullet and be done with it. I agree. Your reactions to the pressure on day1/night1 were enough to carry your replacement through to like day 4 or something, and he did nothing to either help town or try to establish your innocence. I actually think you having to leave was one of the turning point where town started losing the game. You were always going to prove yourself innocent. The fact you didn't get close to dying despite pressure is testament of your good play. The only thing I'm proud of myself this game is the fact that despite LSB's pressure I was never a serious lynch candidate. And I guess my prplhz = town analysis was pretty solid too. And yeah, I'll take full responsibility now that I read the OP and see there is a warning against claiming. I still think it's a retarded game mechanic, but it's my fault not reading that carefully enough. Massclaiming should be a viable tactic for town. I think it's almost always bad to do it anyway. @Bumatlarge. No one is complaining about your scumhunting. You didn't do worse than most of us anyway, probably better. The only complaint I have about your play is I feel you didn't post actively and transparently enough for everyone to get a read on you. The reason it's easy to get a read on people like syllo/sandroba/bugs/mig is that those people will always engage the thread when they're town, share their views, and thus you can deduce their alignment based on their actions. I felt like you were sitting back for this game, which made it much harder to read you. It's not bad play on your part, it's just inconvenient for fellow townies. I hope I'm not coming across as a douche, I think we can have a conversation about the game without resorting to insults against each other. I am definitely not guilt free in this game. Pushing for Forumite dead was dumb. Giving Cyber_Cheese a free pass when his play was terrible for town was even dumber, and most of all, not properly reading the OP and assuming the game wasn't rigged was super-dumb. It was all in all my worst town performance since the original PTP. | ||
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On December 01 2011 05:51 chaoser wrote: np palmar, everyone did badly. Or else town wouldn't have lost. That's something that I'm sure everyone can admit. But when WBG goes around saying "omg omg you're all so bad! that's why I made bad reads/calls/votes!" and indirectly implies that he was in no way a part of that failure, or that his bad play is somehow excused is when I call bullshit on that. Yes, sorry. I don't think you can say we attacked you with no reasons though. You voted Forumite with no reasoning, someone I had a pretty strong town read at the time, and later you voted sinani206, another player I had a town read on. I also do not agree with anyone that opposes LAL. It's a policy every town game should have, all the time. It just makes things more simple for town. And I do not agree with day 1 roleclaims. This, in addition to the fact you acted so much like someone who _wanted_ to get votes on people and get away with it (now that you know my role you can probably understand why I noticed it), ticked me off about your play early in the game. Those are valid reasons to ask more questions, but none of them make you conclusively scum, as can be seen on your flip. Thing is, I've never played with you as town for an extended time before, and people hold you to be very good at mafia. When I assume someone "Good at mafia" I assign them a profile to which I expect them to play to, or something in that direction. After this game, I will be accounting for the fact you are capable of playing aggressively and borderline trolling to get discussion going. This is not a bad thing, it's just something I didn't expect. (Note: you have seen me do very similar things in XLIV) Anyway, GG everyone. I'm impressed with several new people in this game, I hope you all stick around. | ||
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On December 01 2011 06:05 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: From day posts: After Coag died I was also the one to pick up on the smoke bomb usage (I was already dead though), am I the only one that reads the "flavor" text? :-P I never read dayposts. I'm of the opinion outside factors should not affect the game in any way. | ||
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On December 01 2011 06:23 GreYMisT wrote: Dayposts really arn't "outside factors" though, are they? plus i think the OP was specific enough about the dangers invovled, the daypost should make us the mafia more angry if anything, because it gave you guys info about our roles. No no, it's my fault. But I do consider them outside factors. Everything that isn't direct posting by the players is. | ||
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On December 01 2011 07:44 xsksc wrote: Reading all that hate made me sad D: Always gets a little heated. People get over it. I hope you're playing again, you made an excellent call protecting me night one, that required both guts and good insight, seeing as I'm always controversial. | ||
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First off, let me say I think your game was fairly balanced, and I think the setup was for the most part very fun. The things I pointed out are not really specific to your setup, just things I enjoy or don't enjoy in general. So it's not a criticism of your game, or a lash out towards the setup, as much as it is simply me expressing how I feel about various mechanics, especially for future games. I will be the first person to sign up for your next game, and I will enjoy it just as much as I enjoyed this one. Do not take my criticism of mechanics as a complaint the game isn't balanced. I fully appreciate how many power roles town had this game, and I'm also aware that with no other modifications, multi-lynch is good for town. I hope we can both see the distinction of agreeing with game mechanics and agreeing about balance. Multi-lynch vs Vigilantes Multi-lynch in a normal game is town favored. I think we can all agree to that. The problem with it is that if you remove all the vigilantes from the game for the multi-lynch, you lose an equally important kill for town. If 5-8 people in a 30 player game are being inactive and lurking, the chances town will successfully the scum among those are very little, since every competent scum team can deflect it onto a random town lurker/useless person. When the lurkers all have equally bad thread presence, it's not even scummy to push a lynch on one of them over another. The problem lies in the fact that when 5 people in your game have posted once, there is no case to be made against any one of them. Even if town agreed to kill a lurker, any mafia team can deflect the lurker lynch onto a townie. The vigilante has at least a chance to hit scum. This is where the Vigilantes come in, they have a much higher chance of actually hitting the mafia lurkers, because they don't have to deal with the bureaucracy of pushing a lynch through town, when there is no evidence aginst one over the other. They make shooting lurkers fair. I am of the opinion that every game starting from the 16-20 range desperately needs a town vigilante with at least 2 shots to clear out some of the trash. Mass-Roleclaim As I have already stated, I am the idiot for not reading the OP. I missed that part and it's my bad. That doesn't change my opinion that Mass-claims should be viable as a strategy for town, and the downside should be that it gives town almost no information (due to well thought out fakeclaims) and it gives mafia much more information. That's all the downside mass-claims need. If mafia cannot fake-claim well, then that's their problem. This is also why I like alignment cops and not detectives. It's also why I like scum doctors and town roleblockers. I like roles that can be claimed without saying anything about the alignment of the person claiming the role, and I don't like roles that can auto-confirm themselves. But yes, it's not a criticism on your setup, as you clearly stated it'd be punishable. I just didn't read that part, which is my fault. It's a thought about game-play in general. About day posts containing game-related information Again, it's a difference in preference. You ask: Hmm, I don't wish to unnecessarily antagonize you further, but posts (and PMs) by game hosts are outside factors? How are we supposed to convey game-relevant information to players if these aren't even considered part of the game? My answer is, you should not convey any game-relevant information to players other than what's absolutely necessary. Yes, you need to give cops their check results, and you need to announce who died during the night. There is no need to give anything away about the role that killed him, or any other clue towards the game. That is for the players of the game to figure out. Notice, that in your game this would directly buff mafia, I am not arguing balance, just game mechanics I personally don't agree with. Other people may agree with them, and I am not going to enforce my opinion onto others, I am simply going to state my point of view and explain it. Some people enjoy clues, I don't, that's just the way things work. So thanks for replying to my unexplained complaints in detail without lashing out, as I can clearly see now that while not intended to be an attack on the setup, but rather a disagreement with some mechanics, I may have come across as an asshole, I do that alot. I hope you understand what I meant now. | ||
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On December 01 2011 19:37 syllogism wrote: Also Palmar you never read the OP. Sorry I'm not always here to read it for you. True dat bro. | ||
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On December 02 2011 11:55 Nisani201 wrote: Wow that sucks, I'm really sorry for being completely wrong about pretty much everything. Is there a complete role list? There's nothing wrong with being wrong. Being a dick about being wrong is however unnecessary. And you also have to explain how you come to the conclusions you do, or there is simply no way to work with you. Please try and step your town play up. It's not about your reads, it's about being transparent so you can be useful. | ||
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