Been lurking and watching for weeks (Aperture looked like so much fun!), and finally have the time to commit to trying to play one myself.
Newbie Mini Mafia VIII
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ArcticFox
United States1092 Posts
Been lurking and watching for weeks (Aperture looked like so much fun!), and finally have the time to commit to trying to play one myself. | ||
ArcticFox
United States1092 Posts
On April 11 2012 00:35 GreYMisT wrote: You can expect the same commitment from me, but not the same roles. So you won't be getting Yugi Moto But....I AM the king of games! ##youactivatedmytrapcard | ||
ArcticFox
United States1092 Posts
IT'S TIME TO DUEL! .....youshouldstillmakemethekingofgames | ||
ArcticFox
United States1092 Posts
As for lurkers, hopefully we'll get everyone talking soon. Solid cases will build as long as everyone speaks. Let's not waste Day 1. Too many times I've seen people say it's not important. We can find out plenty as long as everyone posts. Please be active so we don't waste our first lynch on a bored townie. The sooner everyone posts, the sooner we can get to the real scumhunting. | ||
ArcticFox
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But back to topic -- we'll have plenty to pick apart as soon as everyone posts. I'm already taking notes. You should be too. Discussion is good. Idle chat is not. Keep it simple, keep it focused on scumhunting. From what I've seen, the radical plays like you've mentioned are easy ways for the Town to jump to conclusions and make a gut bandwagon lynch instead of analyzing the facts. As you newer people confirm, please post shortly after with your thoughts on these policies as well. Our lynches should at least be rational and well-informed, if nothing else. | ||
ArcticFox
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On April 12 2012 08:58 Dittert wrote: What if we all agree to a rng lynch... at least proposing someone to lynch via rng. Then we have something to take a stance on. RNG lynch is the opposite of rational and well-informed. What's the purpose of it? If you think someone looks scummy, point them out, and take a stance that way. That'll get discussion rolling a lot more easily, and it will be much more directed. | ||
ArcticFox
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On April 12 2012 09:16 Dittert wrote: Not RNG lynch... RNG proposed lynch. I was trying to gauge people's reactions to things. If we RNG and hit scum, surely at least 2 people will jump up to defend that person or risk losing one of their own. If no one really cares about killing that person, they're probably town. Verrrrry WIFOM reasoning. Be careful of that. It sounds logical, but discussing motive rarely leads anywhere. What if scum decides to bus? What if someone jumps up to defend because they think RNG is silly, or they have a blue read on him? This line of reasoning leads nowhere fast, and it's best to ignore it. You're tripping my scum-o-meter pretty hard right now. Got any better suggestions? | ||
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On April 12 2012 10:01 KharadBanar wrote: btw, I don't think it's that obvious to everyone that I picked you just for that. It was pretty obvious. Welcome to the party, Hiro. I'll give you a few minutes to read through the thread, but I'm interested in your thoughts on our policy discussions and such so far. The more discussion we have the better off we are. | ||
ArcticFox
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On April 12 2012 10:17 HiroPro wrote: What do you mean by this? You say that lynching lying townies scares scum? I don't follow. It means that if we allow townies to lie without getting lynched, it sets a bad premise, as it allows scum to lie since that's "the new way to seem town." If we say to lynch liars, town won't lie, and the only liars left will be scum. Copied directly from the newbie guide, because he explains it better I think: "Don't lie, because if you do lie, you'll get lynched due to a metagame policy called Lynch all Liars. The policy is put in place to try to encourage townies not to lie. If we automatically lynch everyone who lies, the hope is that the townies would no longer lie so that the only liars are mafia." I would prefer not to have to policy lynch at all, but liars and lurkers is a good place to start if we don't have any solid scumreads by the end of Day 1. So in short -- more people should post so we have more information to go on and can avoid a policy lynch. | ||
ArcticFox
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I mentioned policy a bunch of times last night because there wasn't really a lot to discuss at the time. My primary goal was to get a bunch of people talking, which is working. As of right now, everyone has at least something in their filter to work with, even if it's not much, and we're barely 14 hours into a 48 hour day. Good start. I read through my filter to try to see what you saw. I think you're focusing too hard on the exact wording rather than my motivation behind it. You can see I shot down the RNG mmediately and called out the WIFOM -- I was taking hard stances on the things that actually came up to take stances on. Just as I'm going to do now. I poked Dittert a little bit last night to see how he would respond, but I can't get a clear read on him *just* yet. The RNG thing was pretty nuts, but it sounded more like clueless townie than scum to me. I've got my eye on him to see how his play progresses, but not enough to vote him D1 yet. He needs to come on and form an opinion on something concrete. Last night I was also feeling KB was playing particularly scummy. Then I read his filter from Newbie VI (found here) and realized that for Day 1 it sounds almost exactly the same. I would have labelled him scum that game too D1 (he was not), so I'm going to wait until I see how much more solid his reads become first. Specifically, I would like you to answer Acrofales' question: Who do you think is scum and why? HiroPro is lurking pretty hard right now. A confirm, and a bunch of fluff. You need to be more active. I'm calling you out right now. Start posting or you're my #1 choice for a vote right now. Until HiroPro gives me something to work with though, my suspicions for now though goes to someone nobody has mentioned, vonKlaust. The case against vonKlaust: + Show Spoiler + On April 12 2012 08:49 vonKlaust wrote: I don't really think that we're meant to have a special plan to sort out scum from townies day 1. I think what we're doing now is good. Just keep the conversation flowing, force people to take stances and pressure them to talk. About keeping people from freaking out and start killing each other, I think that's pretty much a part of the game. People make bad reads, and innocent people get lynched. Let's just try to make sure no one is lurking and go from there. The most important thing is to have a ground for analysis. On April 12 2012 08:54 vonKlaust wrote: Alright people, start typing! We know you're out there. So far only a handful of us have posted. On April 12 2012 08:56 vonKlaust wrote: Just noticed that the game had been going for 50 minutes. Lol, maybe I should be a tad more patient. His filter is full of useless junk such as this. It doesn't clutter the thread as much as KB's spam, but it's still just enough to look like you're contributing without actually saying much of anything. The bolded part is pretty damning. It's not part of the game to freak out and kill town. We're here to kill scum. On April 12 2012 09:19 vonKlaust wrote: I'm not sure I support pressure voting this early. Especially when you're so open about the fact that you're pressure voting. The game has been going for like an hour, and it's pretty natural that some people haven't posted yet. Also, stating that openly that you're voting for pressure kinda nullifies the effect, doesn't it? On April 12 2012 21:36 vonKlaust wrote: Ok, I must disappointedly admit that I feel pretty lost. Acts confused about what's going on and doesn't take a solid stance on anything. The only stance he's taken on anything is feeling like Dittert is a confused newbie rather than scum. On April 12 2012 09:47 vonKlaust wrote: What Willz wrote was pretty much what I was thinking. Again, no thought of his own added here, but simply piggy-backing into what willz has already said. He's done a really good job blending in so far. Which is exactly why I'm suspicious of him. Care to weigh in vonKlaust? Actually, I'll just ask you the same question: who do you think is scum, and why? @Xatalos -- It's too early for me to actually vote, but these are my current suspicions. When I am reasonably sure that I have a scum instead of just suspecting, I'll actually set my vote. Actually setting a vote this early tends to allow an easy bandwagon, which is something I don't want the scum to have. | ||
ArcticFox
United States1092 Posts
Before you latch onto me saying the word "motivation" and go all WIFOM on me, I want to clarify. My activity level and my direct statements point to me being town. The only thing pointing me toward being scum are the amount of times I've mentioned the words "policy" and "blue," which I believe I've explained as well as I can. I'd really like to end this distraction, so I posted my thoughts on the relevant discussions and my red reads so far. (Posting green reads just tends to give scum a list of targets to choose from. They should have to do a little work.) Anything else you'd like me to answer to, send it my way. | ||
ArcticFox
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@vonKlaust -- thanks for the response. I still want you to take some time and read through the filters to come up with some conclusions of your own. Show some evidence. Just going along with the first strong case is exactly the kind of bandwagoning you're worried about in your post. If you're still convinced I'm scum, explain why. @HiroPro -- still waiting for you to show up and contribute. I'll likely place my vote this evening, as 24 hours should be sufficient time for anyone not intentionally lurking to post something relevant. | ||
ArcticFox
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The problem is, a lot of filters read very fluffy so far. I want vonKlaust, Yomi, and Dittert to all post something more solid, and HiroPro to post anything at all. Directly at Yomi -- what's your reasoning behind Brood being mafia? You've posted you believe it, but haven't made a case yet. | ||
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I'll post more after lunch. I want to hear from imallinson and more from HiroPro. Those filters are still very thin. | ||
ArcticFox
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Currently, yomi is my primary suspect, throwing alarm bells all over the place. His posts have been overly defensive when questioned, while not actually answering anything. On April 12 2012 12:31 yomi wrote: nothing to contribute? I am one of the only people to post something substantive, specific, and concrete. I have looked over what's been said and formed ideas. For example I think you are mafia. On April 13 2012 00:48 yomi wrote: just to clarify since apparently my posts are incomprehensible, when I say "don't like brood" I mean I think he may be mafia. Primarily I look at this, and pair it with this: On April 13 2012 01:30 yomi wrote: note arctic coming to the defense of dittert aka the most highly suspected player defending the second most highly suspected player. first big slip? not sure what to make of hiro accusing xatalos. I think the guy is kind of ridiculous but I think he (xatalos) is town. arctic/ditt/hiropro mafia 1/2/3 ? A bizarre, knee-jerk OMGUS response to a simple question. Also, still no mention of Brood. He then later answered it as such: On April 13 2012 01:42 yomi wrote: which? why vote for dittert? for the third time: I am voting for Dittert because he proposed a policy which I thought was bizarre and ill advised. More than that, I thought that proposing any policy at all was suspicious. Am I really not writing clearly because I feel like I have made one post in this thread and then explained it 5 times. More confrontation, still no information about why he mentioned Brood was on his scum radar (at least twice, three times if you include his first post in the game that he continues to say is "concrete" -- + Show Spoiler + On April 12 2012 11:43 yomi wrote: Hi I just got back from lifting. I can't think of a more pointless discussion than the one we are having now. It is being led by Broodking, Kharadbanar, and Dittert. I have the most confidence in willz and to a slightly lesser extent arctic. I'm not sure what we SHOULD be discussing since no investigation abilities have gone out yet, but I doubt this is it. Getting people to talk just for the sake of it is great but my fear is that this discussion will bleed into day 2 when we will have some actual information. Overall, I've felt his play so far is nonsensical, confusing, and confrontational, which is something I would expect from mafia rather than town. ##Vote: yomi That's where I'm comfortable right now. I'm interested to see his response when he gets home from class though. I also want to see more from imallinson. His play is very suspicious to me, between flip-flopping on his stance on Xalatos' case against me multiple times, his long post on Trumpetarn that doesn't actually say anything concrete, then a few hours later changing up his vote ("I think in the interest of actually getting a response seeing as none has been given yet I will change my vote to trumpet."), a general lack of firmness in his posts, then posting the vote count (again, in an attempt to seem useful while not actually posting anything), he seems like a very likely candidate as well. Do you have any other reads in addition to Trumpetarn? Dittert's logic is also making no sense to me. Every step of the way has seemed like either scum or a completely new town, but you can only ride the "I'm new" train for so long. His top 3 town choices are completely out of nowhere, and while he also voted for Yomi, the logic of how he got there boggles my mind. I could still see him being new town, but the longer this goes, the scummier it looks. vonKlaust, I still want to hear more from you as well. Your posting has been very defensive, without actually scumhunting. The only thing I saw was an OMGUS vote on HiroPro, and a lot of parroting. What are your reads now? | ||
ArcticFox
United States1092 Posts
Brood -- I want two things from you. First, I want your best scum reads -- 2 or 3 will be sufficient. Second, I want you to answer for the inconsistency between: On April 13 2012 10:29 BroodKingEXE wrote: This whole post reeks of scum to me. "Why are you continuing to waste discussion": well there is no such thing as wasted discussion if it is an accusation. If he thinks you are scum he has the right to that opinion. The opinion of every town member here (except mafia) is important. "I'm not even pushing for your lynch", so the only time we are allowed to challenge you is if you are attacking us? The second paragraph is pretty bad you are flat out telling him to stop talking and that his opinion is worthless, this is very anti-town. It doesn't matter if he can't defend it others will analyze his post and make according conclusions of their own. And: On April 13 2012 11:59 BroodKingEXE wrote: @willz at the moment I dont see anything particularly damning about your other posts, but why waste time engaging dittert? If you really think he is a newbie, then he is really no threat to you. We as a town haven't come to a consensus to vote for you. I think that yomi's baseless accusations are still more damning. Your second comment here is confusing. It both says that willz isn't reading scummy and that he's wasting time engaging, while your first comment says that he's reading scummy and there's no such thing as wasted discussion. I want you to elaborate on your thoughts here, as I don't want there to be any miscommunication. Things got heated, and I want town to calm down a little bit and use reason and logic rather than flaring up and arguing. --------- As for willz, you're very obviously coming off as town to a lot of people (myself included), but looking back through your filter raises some red flags. You keep asking for people's scumreads while not posting any accusations yourself, except to point out inconsistencies in more or less everyone who isn't just lurking. You're calling for transparency while keeping your reads to yourself -- which is probably why Brood and Dittert are reading you as sounding scummy. When you post your case and your vote tomorrow, I would also like your other best reads, as you have asked of most of the rest of town. Your reasoning has been to "make sure mafia don't get defensive", which sounds reasonable, but you then call out other people: On April 13 2012 06:44 willz22912 wrote: What do you mean by this? The idea of sharing scumlists is to build a consensus among town to reach a majority to successfully lynch someone. If multiple people think someone is scummy, there is a reason, and should be shared, even if it's misguided or incorrect because it builds/causes discussion. I agree with your logic here, but the only read you've given out is imallinson, who frankly is just as easy of a pick as Dittert at this point for their usefulness, and was still quite lurky when you threw out the idea. I'm very interested in seeing who else you have in mind. ----------- Dittert, you're not getting off scot free either, as they're primarily arguing over the posts you've made. You've claimed myself, willz, and Yomi as your top scum suspects. What is your reasoning? Provide some facts to back it up. Your summary is that Yomi is throwing around baseless accusations and that's your reason for voting for him (catch 22, as you're doing much the same thing), your case on willz is that announcing yourself as town is obviously something mafia would do (please, please, PLEASE go look up what WIFOM means,) and I'll quote you for your case against me: On April 13 2012 09:23 Dittert wrote: As far as AFox, people have been discussing X's case against him to death, with no real conclusions being drawn. The conclusions that have been drawn is that the case against me was so full of holes it more resembles swiss cheese than a case. Is there more to it than that? If there is, present the facts so we can argue them. Acro was also right about your town reads -- they are morbidly interesting. I want to delve deeper -- what is the reasoning behind your town picks? KB seems to be contributing this evening, but Brood's posts are very fluffy so far so it's hard to get a read either way (you even said the things he said sometimes sound, and I quote, "stupid"), and iamallinson is a terrible choice -- please read his filter and say that he's your 3rd best town read right now. Are these still your top town reads? Why or why not? ------------- In summary, discussion is great, but let's get it more focused. Arguing without any real aim except to rile each other up serves no real purpose except to confuse the town. Let's get some real answers out here so we can make some real decisions. | ||
ArcticFox
United States1092 Posts
On April 13 2012 13:53 Dittert wrote: ArcticFox, do you really think I don't know what WIFOM means? That just seems... ... ... ... inconceivable. Cute. Also, irrelevant and distracting. You need content far too much to be wasting time with this. That's the kind of comment that makes people think you aren't taking the game seriously and gets you lynched. If you understand the concept of WIFOM, you'll understand why so many of your comments have reeked of it. If you're actually town, the time for playing the noob card and making jokes is over. Make a solid case with some good logic and post it. Make yourself useful. You can start by answering my post above if you need a starting point, and go from there. | ||
ArcticFox
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Yomi's looking even more scummy to me after that post last night. I'm even more confident in my vote with yet another post from him that says nothing. I'm still waiting for that big analysis and vote post after all the pressure he put on me yesterday to do the same. I'm glad more people are catching on to the willz filter. There's a lot of aggression and calling out of the bad logic of other people, without actually giving the town any information of his own. That's what I was getting across with my comment last night. I'm still more confident in my yomi vote than a willz vote as of right now, but both reading very heavily red, and I'm just as interested in reading willz long and informative vote post today (which should be coming in 4-5 hours) I'm still waiting on Brood and Dittert to come on and provide useful things. Specifically Dittert. I went to bed last night after calling out his utterly useless Princess Bride post when I put out an easy list of things for him to discuss -- I figured I'd wake up to at least a post of ideas, whether they were bad or not. Instead, he's disappeared. I'm hard pressed to still call him harmless at this point, but we have better targets at this moment. Trumpet and Hiro -- Step in and contribute. Hiro's posts are full of logical fallacies and parroting, with his filter only seems large because of an argument with Brood. Trumpet doesn't even have a filter to consider. Both of you -- who's your best scum read, and explain why? | ||
ArcticFox
United States1092 Posts
I need to stop posting before I've had my coffee. | ||
ArcticFox
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On April 14 2012 01:23 BroodKingEXE wrote: @artic Yomi is another one of my suspects. He keeps trying to say he has contributed something, but he hasn't talked about who he accused yet. So far his only response is that he has already stated his evidence. A lot of people have been asking him for more evidence, but he hasn't been giving any. This is scummy behavior to me, but willz takes more precedence as he posted more (I want to hear a different response from him before I come to a surefire conclusion). I am not sure about the third member as I don't have any scum reads on the rest of the town, and HIro or Trumpet could very well be mafia. That's the logic jump I have trouble with -- the fact that he's posted more somehow seeming scummier. To me, I feel like the reverse would be true. Right now, willz and yomi seem to be the top 2 lynch candidates, and both strike me as playing scummy. I go back and read through both filters and say to myself, "Can I see mafia posting like this?" and in both cases, there's an inconsistency there that really just screams scum. Then I ask myself the opposite question -- "Can I read this filter and see posting like this if I were town?" For willz filter, as of right now, I can at least talk myself into a case for it. He's asking questions and pointing out flaws, but concealing his own reads. There's a bad reasoning behind it, but I could see a solid line of logic flow between his posts, right up until he got angry at Dittert with no real reasoning (which is really the first time anyone's jumped on him, other than Dittert). For yomi, right now, I can't. There's nothing in yomi's filter but anger, omgus, fluff, and constant repetition of the same point. That's why I can't switch my vote off of him. He's reading a stronger scum than willz right now, and is my primary candidate. However, I'm still eagerly awaiting both of them posting this afternoon. I'm hoping we all get a clearer read from them. | ||
ArcticFox
United States1092 Posts
On April 14 2012 02:11 willz22912 wrote: ##Vote: BroodkingEXE Thanks for pointing that out. Anyway, adding on and trying to be as transparent as I can since I'm pretty much getting lynched. My other top scum reads are KharadBanar (He played well in Newbie VI if you see his OP and his filter, but he has posted little to nothing of worth, never stated an opinion on me, and now is jumping on my lynch because it's easy. Here's his post: So his opinion of Mafia behavior is to bus someone else this early? Why would Dittert be Mafia yet push his teammate's lynch? How does this logic work? What basis do you have of your own opinion to vote me, considering you never even had me on your radar before. My last suspicion is either imallinson or HiroPro, I called out imallinson because he was so quick to drop his stances on everything with a "good argument" and that Xatalos was letting him latch onto his case against ArcticFox without any questioning. HiroPro has also not contributed nearly as much as he could have. Lastly, I am also willing to give Yomi the benefit of the doubt and assume he's an overly defensive newb (since this is his first game as well) Say what you want about me OMGUSing my suspicions, I'm going to be dead after today, you need to remember these names and remember what I posted. I will try and be active as I can until the deadline in order to be of the most use to town. If you're actually town, fight to the end. We'll see your analysis if you end up lynched and flip green, so your most effective way to get out of this lynch (or leave a will, if you're pardon the pun) would be to focus on the scumhunting, not martyring. For your arguments vs. Brood: I agree with #4 -- that shot up a huge red flag to me as well, but why can you write off Dittert's assertions as noob, then see Brood's as malicious? For your #6, I feel like you're just seeing a scumslip where there really isn't one. The rest of the post is just defense over your argument with Dittert last night, or leadup to the argument for #4 -- it can mostly be written off the same way as Dittert's. It's really a weak case, certainly not one worth waiting 42 hours for. Why are you so sure of Brood's guilt, but Dittert's innocence? I can read both filters as making noob mistakes. As for KB, if you compare his filter to his other one, the case you could make here is so much stronger. The filter was looking close earlier in the day, but as the day's gone on KB has gone into full lurking and inactive mode. Why not choose KB as a stronger target? Why not go after imallinson as well? Imallinson's filter reads SO scummy right now, it practically drips red. What, other than the argument and OMGUSing from last night, is really leading you to Brood over everyone else? I don't want you to get bandwagoned out, but some serious arguing needs to come in. So far you've voted for someone really on nobody's radar, with an argument that has serious flaws, and marked the only other people who've got serious scum vibes as a newb town. (Note that my vote is still on Yomi, as well as many others' suspicions.) If you're town, don't give up. Get up and give us facts. If you're scum though, by all means keep martyring. | ||
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On April 14 2012 04:07 willz22912 wrote: @ Xatalos You may be right about Yomi, but I feel it's most beneficial for town at this point to confirm my lynch and get the information from my flip to decide about others. If you are right, then when I flip green, your case on Yomi is stronger because of it. If you leave me alive and we lynch Yomi instead and he flips green as well (which I still think is possible), then you have no choice but to lynch me next and then we have 2 mis-lynches in a row. It's better to have me martyr myself for town than to try and save me at this point. You say you think Yomi is town, Yomi has stated he thinks you're town, but when you're lynched and flip green, the case for Yomi being scum is stronger? Why? And if so, this is a good thing how exactly? Your play just keeps getting stranger, dude. This logic is even worse than what we've seen so far. It's sounding more and more desperate. What about Yomi's filter makes you read him as noob instead of scum? His case vs. Dittert is awful, and the rest of the posting is angry and nonsensical. Is there anyone beside Brood and the lurker (Trumpet) who you can build a solid case against for lynching? I'm really close to ignoring your posts until the lynch to be sure. It seems like scum trying to keep attention on himself so we don't notice everything else going on. Why no reaction to Acrofales stirring up a shitstorm around you then disappearing before the vote with an "I can't read the thread or change my vote, I'm busy, but I like willz case." excuse? Sure he reads town to most everyone, but you HAVE to call him out on that, right? You were reading town to most everyone until last night too. | ||
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On April 14 2012 04:31 willz22912 wrote: @ ArcticFox Read Xatalos' argument, it makes sense. If yomi was Mafia and he knew I was the likely lynch target, and he knows I'm really town, he can post that in his defense freely without giving too much away, it gains him credibility. The only reason he would post that without any other support is if he had inside knowledge I think Yomi is newbie because he's tunneling Dittert for the same reason Dittert is tunneling me. Do you think Dittert is Mafia for posting the original case against me and trying to lynch me? How is this any different from Yomi against Dittert? They're both newb towns tunneling everyone. I read through Acrofale's case on me and I see the logic in it because I'm reading an unbiased version of my accounts from a different perspective. I cannot argue against it, it makes sense, I suppose he could be Mafia making an easy case because of previous circumstance (Dittert/BroodKingEXE responses to me) but that's up to you to figure out since I won't be around now will I? What do you want me to do, save myself by changing my vote to Yomi? And what happens if he flips red, all is forgiven and everyone will overlook my behavior? What happens if he flips green, then how do I explain myself? I'm in a lose-lose situation personally, and the best thing I can do for town is let my lynch go through and flip green to prove I was town. I want you to tell me why you think sacrificing yourself and throwing suspicion onto yomi is a good thing when you're convinced that yomi's a newbie town instead of scum. That's the whole basis of my statement. @Xatalos -- my vote is already on yomi, so I agree with you. I'm wondering why willz would be for throwing more suspicion on yomi if he's sure that yomi's town. | ||
ArcticFox
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On April 14 2012 04:42 willz22912 wrote: ##Unvote: BroodKingEXE ##Vote: Willz22912 This discussion is now pointless for me, and I'm a little sad/angry at myself for my poor play for letting it come to this point, so I'm going to leave now. I've stated all I can, I'll keep up with the thread and hopefully see a town victory. Town, look at who voted me, but focus on BroodkingEXE please, ignore Dittert, he doesn't know any better. I suppose you should also look at Acrofales for making an easy case against me and then peacing out. GL If you flip green after this tantrum I'm going to be SO pissed at you for voting for literally the only person you 100% know is town. If you flip red, thanks for saving me the next 3 hours of trying to drag more information out of you that we wouldn't be able to use. | ||
ArcticFox
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On April 14 2012 05:03 Xatalos wrote: KharadBanar, I agree that nothing is certain until death, but there is no real explanation for yomi's actions unless he is Mafia and Willz is town (in my opinion). It's not 100% certain, but certain enough for me to not focus on Willz anymore. I also urge you to vote for yomi. I see you think Willz is town, but unless you vote for yomi, he might be lynched soon. Your vote on HiroPro is doing 100% nothing at the moment and would be infinitely more useful on yomi. I was fine with the lynch moving to yomi when willz was responding confidently, and making reasonable, logical responses to everything that was thrown at him. Giving up to the lynch, making posts that weren't well thought out, and, finally, the deal-sealer in my eyes, voting for himself, then voting for Yomi just to save himself from the lynch, while consistently saying Yomi seems town, really makes things difficult. If yomi flips green D1, willz very likely dies Day 2, with no real discussion happening (or to vig shot, if we have it). If yomi flips red D1....nobody listens to willz anyway after that because he never actually made a case for yomi -- town confidence in him is zero right now. Ever since the first time he was called out for his weak argument vs Brood, his posts have been progressively scummier. There's no logic or reason behind the posts anymore. It's all very desperate and martyrish and "well nobody will believe me anyway so why should I bother." There's a huge inconsistency going on here. willz -- Who do you think is scum? Speak confidently and directly as you were yesterday, but present FACTS. This is more or less your last shot. I'm ready to change my vote over to you, and I've been pushing yomi for a full day. Settle down, go for a quick jog or something, wash your face, come back, and make a real case. The sooner the better though, as I'm not sure how many people will still be reading at the deadline. (I'll be here though!) Mods: can we get another vote count? I think it's 4-3 between our top two right now, but with all the voting and unvoting I'm getting a little messed up in my counts. Thanks! | ||
ArcticFox
United States1092 Posts
On April 14 2012 05:55 yomi wrote: maybe not hiropro actually, im gonna reread his filter right now. I never really looked at him too closely Read imallinson's filter while you're at it. Also read your own filter while you're looking. On April 14 2012 05:53 yomi wrote: Can't believe it has come to this Are you trying to tell me your filter doesn't look like scum? What have you actually done for town? On April 14 2012 05:59 yomi wrote: Why so scared? I am one vote away from being lynched. I guess only a mafia gets scared when they are one vote away from being lynched. before I am set to be lynched? what do you mean? you want me to post with 1 second left? you can't see a motivation for a player to ensure they survive? this is becoming dittert playing dumb level of ridiculous Thank you for continuing to post gems like this. You remind me why I set my vote on you in the first place -- you're continually defensive rather than posting scum reads. On April 14 2012 05:33 yomi wrote: But what if I flip town? How does it confirm you and arctic if I am mafia? Mafia trying to distance each other etc. This is not logical, this is circular. You are saying it is good to lynch me because I am mafia. OK. That's logical. Lynching a mafia is good. But your attempt to do this pseudo cost-benefit analysis is ridiculous as it is predicated on you being right in the first place, therefore it cannot be an argument for you being right! You are saying if I am mafia and willz is town it is better to lynch me than willz. Is this supposed to be an argument? This. If your filter was full of more posts like this, it would be golden, and yet it's getting glossed over because of how abrasive your tone is in so many of your posts. Xatalos' argument here was full of WIFOM and you nailed it on the head. It doesn't take any other situations into account except "I'm sure yomi is mafia." and "I'm sure willz is town." So take it a step further. Does it mean anything? Many of Xatalos' posts have had these ridiculous logic leaps. It doesn't mean he's wrong here yet, because you haven't argued anything against it. I'm still convinced you're scum. But these are the steps you take to try to prove me wrong. This is what it means to contribute -- point out the facts and the inconsistencies, not to continually be abrasive. Remember -- even if you do get lynched as town, you still win the game as long as all the mafia are dead at the end. If you want town to win, post less pointless anger, and more scumreading. | ||
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On April 14 2012 06:38 BroodKingEXE wrote: This vote is way to close I am going to vote for Yomi to make sure Mafia don't get the initiative to switch. I have already put some thoughts down, but his recent posts haven't helped his case. He talks about how he has been flaming, and that he is going to get more information. The problem with this is that its roughly 1.5 hours to vote, any information he brings foward won't be able to analyzed properly and the voting will turn to chaos. Although I think willz is more likely scum. ##Unvote ##Vote: Yomi What, WHAT? No, you can't get away with this. | ||
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It's the most blatant scum move I've seen. Like pants-on-head dumb. Go read brood's filter immediately. I have to go pick up a pizza but I'll be back in about 40 minutes. Brood, if you're town, that's literally the dumbest thing I've ever seen in my life. There's been suspicion near you but you've flown under the radar. Answer for this. | ||
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On April 14 2012 07:13 BroodKingEXE wrote: I thought that willz was more likely to be scum than Yomi. My thinking was that if I was wrong about either I don't want the Mafia (which could be Hiro or Trumpet to swing the vote). You couldn't really blame either of them as they have no posts so far. Swinging my vote to Yomi wasn't a bandwagon I talk about him here. I have reasons for voting for Yomi: This was before willz scummy post. The only reason I didn't immediately switch to Brood before I left to get pizza was to get some sort of response, since I gave the same chance to willz and yomi. 40 minutes is sufficient to throw something solid together. This is not solid. willz made a case against you which was really weak on the first readthrough (and it's still a lot of fluff), but it was enough for me to keep an eye on you. I was going to push you to contribute more tomorrow after the yomi lynch. Now I don't have to wait. ##Unvote ##Vote: BroodKingEXE Town or scum, that move was dumber than a five pound sack of stupid. It's the most obvious scum play we've seen so far. Also -- this should show that nobody was REALLY convinced of our cases vs. yomi and willz, seeing how easily so many of us came off of them. This is how Day 1 is -- we do our best to put cases together that make sense based on our reads and analysis of what people have said. I still see yomi and willz acting scummy, and I still need to see a much better effort from them in the rest of the game (if yomi isn't just flat out vig shot tonight.) | ||
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The mafia is laughing at us right now. Gah. I'm gonna get some air. This is ridiculous. | ||
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On April 14 2012 21:31 Xatalos wrote: Really? I thought roleblock stops Mafia KP in this setup. Just look at this post: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=324743&user=151616¤tpage=3 (the one where KharadBanar makes his last will and roleclaims before his death) Could we please get confirmation from a host? Ah, yeah... It doesn't really make sense for a blue to ask being jailed. But you don't know if I'm actually Jailer and just making the Mafia WIFOM into not shooting me, do you? Everything is possible. Even me being Mafia and wanting to buy a bit of credibility by sacrificing my power. I haven't announced my role yet. I'm glad you started posting and I like your response to my criticism of being AFK for the lynch. At the moment you read very town for me, so I agree with vonKlaust that you should be protected. At least we should encourage the Doctor to protect you - even if he decides otherwise, Mafia can't risk to waste their KP on you while you well might be protected. But I don't agree about telling who to investigate, because it would be too easy to frame then. Vigilante: yomi (preferably also explain your choice at the deadline, look at GOT where SLJ did this as well: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=321496&user=239474¤tpage=3) Jailer: Xatalos Doctor: Acrofales Detective: use your own judgement Xatalos....please...for all our sakes, slow down your posting. Stop typing. No, I know you're already formulating a response to this before you're at the end of this sentence. Stop. Go back. Read your filter. Every single one of your posts has been either a parroted argument that someone else has already made, or a case full of so many logical fallacies and leaps that it's a wonder how you ever got there in the first place. Posting a list of blue actions is not even relevant. Blues should already know what they're going to do. Having different targets for Jail/Doc in a semi-open setup where you don't even know if both roles exist (and likely don't both exist unless scum got some powerful roles too) is a headscratcher too. Beyond this, you gave no real reasoning as to *why* those should be people's choices. "Oh, I post a lot and I'm obviously town, because I say I am." is your whole reasoning to be protected. Yomi as vig shot is because "he's a distraction" -- as much of a distraction as dittert? Or even willz at this point? Yomi and willz are at about the same level in my mind -- why yomi over willz other than your "I'm sure that willz is town and yomi is mafia," statement? It's as poor as the rest of your logic. I know you're trying to contribute, but your posting is all over the place. If I were on the scum team and you are actually town, you're exactly the kind of town I'd *want* to keep alive. Slow down, and think calmly before you post. Is this argument sound? Does it have a solid counterargument? etc. Yomi is actually starting to make a little more sense to me as this goes on. He's been really the only one who's been saying Dittert is actually scum -- I've hinted at it, Acro and imallinson's FoS'd him, but yomi's been all over it since early day 1. Imallinson makes a big list of things picking apart Dittert's post, but the most damning things about it just scream scum to me. First, his sudden change in tone from a meek, clueless, "is this ok?" style of posting to suddenly: On April 14 2012 13:23 Dittert wrote: Here's my read: you're all a bunch of idiots. Seriously. ... ... ... After 3 or less games of mafia, what makes you think your intuition is worth anything? ... ... ... From now on, I would appreciate it if everyone read every post and ignored all of their feelings. Feelings are for little girls. Use your brain. ... ... ... For the love of god, will the vig please shoot yomi or willz tonight so we can get some real info? Thanks. Willz was jumped all over for rabidly defending himself when accused, and suddenly switching from seeming helpful to getting aggressive. Dittert has done the exact same thing. On April 14 2012 13:23 Dittert wrote: All I hear about is how "such and such FEELS scummy/townie to me." After 3 or less games of mafia, what makes you think your intuition is worth anything? I'll bet you FEEL like you're constantly producing SCV's too, and I bet you're in the bronze league. For everyone who saw Brood's play as "so obviously mafia/scumslip," what do you think of your judgement now? As I mentioned before, I thought Brood was just kind of bad town (or as I said, "says some really stupid shit"). ... ... ... From now on, I would appreciate it if everyone read every post and ignored all of their feelings. Feelings are for little girls. Use your brain. Does post X make sense if so and so is town? What about if they're mafia? Do I see a pattern of posting between people? Remember that the mafia are coordinating with each other. Can you pick out anything that looks like coordination between 3 people? If you think so and so is mafia, with whom are they working? Can you construct a consistent and compelling story about what might be happening in the thread? Are you willing to assume that most people are just chattering townies (which is statistically true)? Day 1, we HAVE no facts to go with. We are interpreting everything that every person posts, and we have to determine which posts feel the most scummy and run with those reads. To insinuate that you, or I, or anyone else in this game is doing something different is insulting and distracting. The first actual clue we have is "BroodKingEXE is town." Now we get to go back through BroodKing's filter and see what it means. In about 9 hours, we'll have 1 or 2 more people dead, and we'll go through *those* filters, and people who have posted about them, and start to put them together. Saying "I was right about Brood, he was town, therefore I'm right and listen to me!" is awful logic. Go back and read the posts. Before Brood made what everyone can agree is the dumbest play of the game, nobody was voting for Brood. Even willz had taken his vote off of Brood and voted for yomi. We were convinced that one of those two were scum, and at worst we'd have more information today, and only something extremely large happening could take us off of that focus. Brood did exactly that, and that's the only reason he's dead. If he'd kept his mouth shut and kept his vote on willz, even *if* some people had jumped from yomi to willz at the last minute, we'd still have more information. yomi was up 5 votes to 4 and set to be lynched. The play made 0 sense. It still doesn't. That's why I got so pissed and left my computer last night. We gained almost nothing from a brood lynch except "well...Brood played badly." The sudden change in tone, the constant horrible logic, and the playing of the noob card for far too long. It's time people started watching you. ##FoS: Dittert | ||
ArcticFox
United States1092 Posts
Shoot people tallking nonsense. Shoot lurkers. If a vig exists, make a smart call. If the vig fires and hits a green, in a majority lynch situation it doesn't hurt much -- with no vig shot if we mislynch every time, Day 3 is 5-3, mislynch is 4-3, and mafia kill makes it 3-3 and game over. If vig hits and it's green, then Day 3 is 4-3, mislynch is 3-3, and game's over anyway. Saving the shot for Day 2 only makes sense if there's a) nobody talking nonsense b) nobody lurking and c) nobody the vig is really heavily thinking is mafia. It's extremely unlikely (and from where I stand, impossible) that all 3 of these are the case. The only terrible vig result would be to shoot a blue, which is even less likely than hitting mafia, as I highly doubt there are 4 blues in play. Now let's end this pointless blue talk. It's all WIFOM anyway. Let the night actions happen and get back to finding scum after the flips. | ||
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On April 15 2012 04:04 Xatalos wrote: Do you think yomi is the best Vigi shot btw? And what do you think about the possibility of the Vigilante to claim his shot at the deadline? *sigh* I'm still loathe to talk about blue roles, but if you insist... If the vig shoots someone the mafia is highly unlikely to kill, only then would the claim before deadline would be safe. I'd likely wait until *after* night 1 resolves, in case they shot the same target, then vig still has the bullet and hasn't claimed unnecessarily and takes no chance at being roleblocked. Since we won't know the kill flavors, any other play seems like a bad move. Any counterclaims would work themselves out by the Day 3 lynch, so the timing of the claim is more or less irrelevant. For my vig target? There's at least 5 people who I could make a reasonable case for shooting right now, for either lurking, being highly suspected as scum, or posting just stupid shit over and over again. That's what's so terrible, especially in light of gaining no real information from the lynch -- there are SO many people with scum behavior it's actually impossible to tell. We don't have 1 or 2 good targets, we have more targets than actual mafia that exist. =/ Yes, yomi's on the list, but so are people like HiroPro and Dittert. I couldn't even really argue against a vigi hit on willz. The fact that the list is so large at all is what sucks. We need the entire town to be more active and more focused in the scumhunting. The random fingerpointing, the rage, the WIFOMing, the confusion, and the horrific logic jumps are doing nothing but making our job harder. If you can go back through your filter and go, "wow, this actually can be read as REALLY scummy," then you're causing part of the confusion. Stop and read the filters. Make a solid, logical case. Post it. Read the counterarguments and see if they make sense or if they're full of crap. Be open and transparent with your reads. Anything else is just making the mafia's job easier and the town's job harder. I really hope our Day 2 is more productive. We spent so much time arguing with each other, and then getting no actual info from the lynch that Day 1 was nearly a complete waste. I feel like the night flips will give us something better to work with, and hopefully a fresh start for all of us. | ||
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On April 15 2012 07:28 yomi wrote: I have no idea if claiming the shot is a good idea. Once he shoots he is just a green townie so it's not like he would be identifying himself as a "blue" per say. Although then if the mafia get him they would know there is no vigi anymore and it could help them potentially a lot in an end game scenario. Or can there be multiple vigis? I would like a response to my green question sorry this is all equivocal but I can't help it I am an econ major http://quotationsbook.com/quote/11809/ p.s. don't shoot me and I don't think there should be a shot tonight at all tbh as for who to hit with saves this is way too wifom. go for people you are most confident are town? save me from an erroneous vig (i had to try)? the choice is yours and yours alone remember the only person you are 100% sure of is yourself so I might just turtle up tonight. Day 2 is in 30 minutes. You don't have much time left to turtle. Start readying your reads for some good discussion tonight. And I believe there can be multiple of one role afaik since it's semi-open, but you'd have to ask a mod to be sure. | ||
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gg, gl town | ||
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Ok. I think I got out all my rage in the obs QT. But my gosh..... | ||
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I mean...it *was* Dittert...but come on.....at least lynch into Dittert/KB. Lynching Xatalos made no sense. I was even convinced Xatalos was town by mid Day 3.... | ||
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On April 20 2012 08:55 Xatalos wrote: I'm also quite baffled as to why I was lynched in the end... And I still can't believe Willz was town! How in the... His play was SO scummy it had no bounds. I agree. I had willz as scum right up until yomi made the switch off of Dittert. Then I was like "fuuuuuuck. it's KB + yomi + allin. fuuuuuuuck." Willz was like 4th scum with his play though. It just made no sense. WHY was the vote between KB/Xatalos instead of KB/Dittert? ONE of those two had to be scum, no way town would claim vs. town there. | ||
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On April 20 2012 09:02 Xatalos wrote: I should have seen the signs when suddenly KharadBanar and imallinson voted for me out of nowhere. At first I thought KharadBanar was in some huge trap of illogical thinking, but the more he posted, the less I started to trust him. Like I said in ObsQT, Dittert didn't make it exactly easy to believe he was town with his posting. If it had been like...func who said it, or even vK, town would have just insta-lynched KB without a second thought. But with that logic, if you think for a few minutes, it has to be an either/or between Dittert/KB. Either Dittert's fakeclaiming or he's not. Then it makes 0 sense for mafia to fakeclaim there and the rest of his QT wouldn't let him do it. It's an easy KB lynch. | ||
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On April 20 2012 09:07 Xatalos wrote: Yeah... It seems like Dittert's strategy was to make himself too suspicious to be shot at night, but it backfired hard, since nobody trusted him anymore. To be fair, until like 12 hours ago I had you pegged as scum too, so I'm not too great at my reading yet. XD | ||
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On April 20 2012 09:12 Xatalos wrote: When did you come to the conclusion I would be Mafia? And how did you figure out I was actually town? Inexperience mostly. What I was reading as "wild logic and random accusations" was just active townie behavior. I came to my senses when Matt set me straight for like the 4th time that I should be looking for motivations, and not tunneling on perceived scumslips. When I re-read your filter today, it finally all clicked together. Never clicked for me on willz though. willz play had me confused all fucking game. | ||
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On April 20 2012 09:16 KharadBanar wrote: Thank you to all the players in that game for making it so amazing for scum And huge thanks to GreYMisT for hosting this! Your Aperture Mafia game was the one that got me into playing Mafia here on TL in the first place, and I would like to continue to do so. ##Donate 100 TMB GreYMisT You'll be amused KB that Hiro protected you N1, that's how the shot got through on me. He had acrofales read as scum. | ||
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##Donate 100 Snarfs <3 | ||
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On April 20 2012 09:29 Mattchew wrote: We can do this... we can learn to do better. I thought my coaching subjects played well dittert and acro did some unconventional shit that i would have advised against but i wanted my coaching to be more general. Artic and VonKlaust played very very well i thought. Idk if i actually coached yomi and broodking cause of the one and done responses. Matt <3 It was SO hard watching from the QT because NOBODY WAS PUSHING THE LURKERS. Any of KB, func, allin, Dittert (pre-DT claim), Hiro (pre-lynch) or vK (pre-Day 3) could have been scum and nobody would have known. The only reason I zeroed in on Hiro as blue was because when he posted, it was posts that actually said something. | ||
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KharadBanar 04-13-2012 01:58 PM ET (US) OK to your comments about Xatalos. Also ArcticFox is looking to be more dangerous now, he's got us practically figured out. If the Yomi lynch had proceeded as planned, imallinson was my next target. KB was blending well, I didn't have him figured out until much later. Of course after that lynch screwed up and the fallout from it my reads went all over the place. x.x Edit: If anyone around is still qualifying as a nub like me, join http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=329508 so we can have more fun! =D | ||
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On April 20 2012 10:04 marvellosity wrote: But if you were really town then Dittert was 100% scum. A KB town wouldn't settle for anything other than a Dittert lynch, and you barely pushed for it. It should have been so transparent :x Edit: especially given the town is at lylo and must lynch scum... This is what confused me, from both a town and scum perspective -- Why, in either case, would you push so hard for a Xatalos lynch, when it's obvious that either one or the other of Dittert or KB absolutely 100% *MUST* be scum. Then from there, Xatalos took it the rest of the way with the Dittert needing to be actual DT or the claim makes no sense, and KB has to be scum. Simple -- if you think Dittert is fakeclaiming, you lynch Dittert. If not, lynch KB. I have absolutely no idea how you swung a Xatalos lynch out of that. We figured you just thought you had town outplayed so hard that you were just showing off or something. | ||
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On April 20 2012 13:02 Dittert wrote: GG. Thanks to Greymist and Snarfs for hosting. Thanks to the Mattchew, Jitsu, and DoYouHas for the coaching advice. If you guys can believe it, I actually did ask for coaching help (at least a little...). I guess my main question is this - I basically felt constantly ignored and written off the entire game. I thought this was hilarious in the obsQT: HiroPro - I feel bad for Dittert. His posting hasn't been great, but he's completely right about people ignoring him. Even when they're 100% sure he's a fake DT, they won't vote for him... What should I have done differently to make you listen to me more, especially since I didn't want to appear 100% uber-town with being DT and everything. I'm equally interested to hear from the people in the game as I am from the coaches/hosts who could give insight from experience. Specifically I'll tell you this, for at least when I was alive -- I had you pegged as a first time town player, making some off the wall suggestions and your town reads were really all over the place. But where I, personally, switched off and stopped listening to you was when you were in dire straits, arguing directly with willz and shitting up the thread, and after I asked you to stop it and seriously give me your reads, you fired that Princess Bride line at me, and promptly logged off without giving any info after that. If you're trying to come off as a helpful town, that was a serious fuck-up that made me completely stop listening to anything you said until your DT claim. The self-deprication on Day 2 where "nobody listens to dumb ol' Dittert" did you no favors of gaining town cred. Know what gains you town cred? Scumhunting, of which, due to either your work schedule or just frustration with the game over being called a scrub for 3 straight days, completely came to a halt. The only things that give off town cred are straight, decisive, logical cases (usually well-articulated helps). Hiro was doing it to some degree, and was really on the right track, but he lurked just a *little* bit too much, which got him lynched (I would have saved you Hiro! I knew you were blue! <3). That's why Acro, Xatalos, and I gained so much town cred, which was stripped from Xatalos as soon as people started pointing out how so many of his cases were logically flawed. The best advice I can give is go to our thread (or any Mafia thread running) and see who people in general are sheeping behind, or gravitating toward. Those are the styles of posts that give off a "oh yea, this guy is DEFINITELY town" vibe that makes people trust them. Petty arguments and off-handed remarks are at best going to make people stop listening to you, and at worst make them lynch you. Also, I have to ask -- why why WHY in God's name did you vote someone else after a red check on KB? Your rep in town was already shot, and that little maneuver I believe is a big reason why Town had such a hard time believing you were actually DT. | ||
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On April 20 2012 14:11 Dittert wrote: Second, I don't know how much stock to put into town cred. You had a bunch of it and got shot N1. Acro had a bunch of it, led us to a mislynch on D2, then got shot on N2. KB had a lot of it too, but he was fricking mafia!!! I guess I'm wondering what's the point of town cred when it didn't seem to do any good in this game (and actually cost us the game). Town cred is a very fickle thing. There's a reason that mafia don't try to reach out and grab it early on -- it's so hard to play consistently all game when you're mafia and know that you have to actually lie that you usually end up losing it before it does you any good (again, coming back around to why so many people turned on Xatalos, and he was even town!) One or two bad cases can make you lose it just as easily as one or two good cases can make you earn it. N2 you didn't have to make your town cred any lower -- you didn't *have* any. Nobody was listening to you. You weren't a threat to mafia. What you needed to do was put together a case on someone you had a suspicion on and make it stick and defend it, not yell at people and make them ignore you. As Hiro said, it made people ignore you so hard, they didn't even vote you when they thought the DT check was fake. And I have no idea why KB had so much town cred. I wanted someone to press him and make him talk. func too. allin as well. vK on Day 2. yomi coasted. Mafia got lucky with the BKE lynch on Day 1, then didn't really have to do much but coast after that. | ||
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On April 21 2012 01:56 jaj22 wrote: BKEXE did attempt to defend himself, but his defense was wrong. Mafia never attempt a last-minute switch on day 1 because it's so obviously scummy. You'd have simply lynched both Yomi and the switcher on day 2 and 3. Turns out he was honestly wrong. It happens A more experienced town would have done exactly that -- lynch Yomi Day 1, and then probably BKE Day 2 unless he did some serious contributing. But that's why we play the newbie games -- to learn. | ||
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On April 21 2012 05:24 jaj22 wrote: Mafia bussing Yomi was the correct play given that town were clearly moving in that direction and there was no good alternative. I initially thought KB was a bit early on the bus, but he was under pressure because he'd accepted Willz's defence and he'd expressed suspicion of Yomi earlier. The other part is tricky. I'm inclined to think that you actually got the aggression balance about right in day 1 and the real problem was with players reacting poorly to it. It's something that's much less of a problem when players have more games between them. Being attacked when you're innocent is something that you have to get used to. For that reason there's no good way to play newbie games, so don't curtail your aggression just because it didn't work out in this game. If anything, you focused too narrowly from day 2, like the rest of town. Read as: MAKE THE LURKERS POST. ><><><><><><><>< *cough* >.> | ||
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On April 21 2012 06:05 jaj22 wrote: Well, it's not just lurkers. I have doubts that anyone read imallinson's filter properly (except funcmode, maybe), otherwise they should have been making a case. Players who weren't drawing attention to themselves were getting ignored. He was lurking pretty hard imo. And I had already said his filter was dripping red. He just stepped up a bit in Day 2, and there was so much distraction and already soooooooo many other targets. It was a tough game all around, to both obs and play. | ||
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