Mafia is an educated guessing game of epic proportions. The objective of the game is to lynch or kill all mafia members before they outnumber the rest of the town. It's much like a game of poker because mafia members are also part of the town during the day and may manipulate the vote to their liking. If the mafia at any time outnumber or equal the townspeople, they win. The town's goal is to lynch all the members of the mafia.
The game is typically very active, so the thread will get big quickly. However, it is essential to read the thread to play the game. If you do not have the time or patience to read the whole thread, do not play. Mafia takes up a lot of your time! If you are not prepared to commit, then please don't join
Rules:
Cheating: Cheating includes (but is not limited to): 1. Posting after death. You may have one polite goodbye post, but it may not contain any potentially game-changing information. 2. Ruining the game by doing something like hand out your mafia's member list to the town. 3. Logging on to someone else's account to get their role or looking over someone's shoulder to get their role. 4. Comparing role PM times to determine roles. 5. Posting screenshots of your inbox. 6. Posting or sharing any PM you receive from a host. 7. Getting yourself modkilled to help your team. Your non-majority-decided death may not be used as a bargaining chip. 8. Signing up more than once using smurf accounts. 9. Betting items outside of the game in exchange for in-game benefits. 10. Sharing accounts with other players. Only you may post on your account. 11. Breadcrumbing the specific phrasing of your role PM. Do not compare the phrasing in your role PM to prove your alignment. You can claim the abilities you have, but you can't use the specific phrasing of your role PM
Cheating is not tolerated here. The punishment will be severe.
Posting:
Mod Font: This is mod font. It is reserved for moderators. Please do not use it.
Question Font: This is question font. Use it to ask the moderators questions about the rules. Please do us a favor and read the rules before you ask anything.
Activity: You must post in this thread once per day/night cycle and vote every day while you are alive. If you fail to do so, you will be modkilled.
Smurfs: Not allowed. This is a newbie game, don't try to take advantage of it.
Spam: Please keep spam to a minimum. This thread is for mafia, not chit chat.
Editing: Editing is not allowed for any reason. DO NOT EDIT OR I WILL END YOU! This is the one part of the site where it is okay to be double posting, even triple-posting.
Inappropriate posts: If you want to post something insulting or inappropriate and know the TL mods would have a problem with it elsewhere, don't post it here. I expect everyone to be civil here. This is a newbie game, and a chance for everyone to try out mafia, or to try and improve there game. We are here to have fun, so please do not insult each other. If you have a problem with how someone is posting, please PM me directly.
Reporting posts: The report button is a nice feature for regular TL, but not for this forum. We prefer to deal with things in house if possible to avoid confusion among the TL staff. If you have a problem with how someone is posting, talk to the host, co-host, Flamewheel, or Mig before using your report button. Please do not use your report button for anything other than inappropriate posts which you feel are not being dealt with adequately.
Ban discussions: Please wait until this game is over to talk about modkills and bans resulting from this game.
Play to win. This means you play your best to help your team win while you are alive and in the game. However, this does not mean that you should try to win by being a jerk to the other players so they all want to quit playing.
This also means that you cannot leave the game without a good reason without a ban. These situations will be dealt with on a case by case basis. PM your host if you need to leave the game.
You have been warned.
Voting rules:
1. Voting will be done IN THIS THREAD. There will not be a voting thread because I think they're redundant for minis. Do not PM me your vote. 2. Please vote in the following format: ##Unvote: risk.nuke ##Vote: Jitsu Votes not done in the correct fashion will not be counted. I will update vote counts as often as possible. 3. No conditional voting. 4. You may not vote for yourself. You may not vote for anyone dead or outside the game. 5. This game uses Plurality Lynch. Whomever has the most votes at the end of the day is lynched. In the event of a tie, the player who received the most votes first will be lynched. 6. Voting is mandatory. You may NOT abstain.
Signups:
This game is open newbies only, that is, you must have played three or fewer game on TL.
Game-specific rules:
Modkills: This game follows the TL Mafia Ban List. If you are modkilled, your punishment will go beyond being eliminated from this game. Please refer to it for questions about your punishment. If you want to use this game to sit out your ban, please PM Flamewheel or post in the Ban List.
Replacements This game will use replacements if we can get them. If we have an excess of sign-ups, they will be placed on the 'replacement list' and subbed in as necessary.
Clues: There are NO clues.
PMs PMs are NOT allowed in this game.
Time Cycle: This game will follow a 24 hour night/48 hour day cycle. In case I am not able to post around deadline, any votes after the 48 hour mark will not count and the game will be put on halt until the night post is up. Currently the deadline is 21:00 GMT (+00:00), but that is subject to change. Actions/votes will be accepted up to and including the posted time, but not after. Credits: Thanks to anyone who has ever hosted a game. This list grows ever longer. Thanks to everyone who helped balance this game.
If you have not read all the rules, please go back and do so. Thanks!
This is a semi-open setup, that is, exact role counts will not be known, but the possible roles will be known. All roles presented here are not necessarily in the game, but no roles not included here are present.
Town Roles
Townie - You are just a normal citizen with no night actions. All you can do is vote during the day for someone to be lynched. Your wits and your votes will carry the town to glorious victory or shameful defeat.
Cop - You've been on the department for years. You're sharp and perceptive. Once at night you may choose a single person to investigate. At dawn you will find out if they are Town or Mafia. You win with the town.
Medic - As the town's doctor, your medical knowledge and healing skills give you the power to save lives. Once per night you can watch a player. If your target is attacked, you will block one hit aimed at them. If you make a successful save, both you and your target will be notified of the save. You cannot save yourself. You win with the town.
Veteran - You're as tough as they come. You've been around the block a few times and know how to escape an attack on your life. It takes two attacks to kill you. You win with the town.
Jailkeeper - Equipped with chloroform and rope, you steal into the night to kidnap a random person and lock them in your basement “for safety”. Once per night, you may target a player to protect and roleblock. You win with the town.
Vigilante - You hate criminals, you hate them SO much. You dispise the system, and have taken justice into your own hands. Once per game, at night, you may target one player to shoot with one kp. You win with the town.
Miller - You are just an ordinary citizen of the town of Liquidia. Well, almost ordinary. Unbeknownst to you, you sleepwalk and often end up visiting the graveyard and other suspicious locations. For that reason, you return Mafia to detectives who choose to check you. Millers are not informed that they are millers; rather, they are given regular vanilla townie PMs. The Miller will be revealed as a Miller upon his/her death. The Miller is on the side of the Townies and wins if they win.
Town Win Condition - The town wins when there are no mafia left in the game
Mafia Roles
Mafia Goon - You're a new recruit in the mafia organization. You haven't learned any special tricks yet but you're hungry for money and power! You win with the mafia.
Mafia Roleblocker - You're a senior member of the mafia. You're good with distractions. Once per night you may choose a person to cause a distraction for. That player will be occupied and unable to perform an action that night. You win with the mafia.
Mafia Framer - You're one of the mafia elites. Years with the mafia have taught you a thing or two about manipulation. Once per night you may choose a person to visit and plant suspicious items in their house. For that night, that person will show as mafia for cops. You win with the mafia.
Mafia Rolecop - You're one of the mafia elites. A former cop, your skills made you a valuable asset to the mafia. Once per night you can investigate a persons house. At dawn you will know the persons role. You win with the mafia.
Mafia Godfather - You're the head of the mafia. You've been the leader for as long as anyone can remember. All those years have taught you one thing. You can never be to carefull. You will show as Town to cops. You win with the mafia.
Mafia Win condition - The mafia wins when they equal or outnumber the remaining townies. Useful Guides
On April 12 2012 23:47 marvellosity wrote: I get vig, not sold on Miller tho
Me neither to tell the truth. It was in the list of acceptable newbie roles that I sent risk.nuke though. I'll remove it from the list for the next Newbie Game as I don't think it really belongs.
On April 12 2012 23:47 marvellosity wrote: I get vig, not sold on Miller tho
Miller lets scum argue their way out of a red check. Its pretty much required when there are cops about, even if none actually make it into the game itself, the very possibility of a miller allows a mafia that gets checked by a cop to claim innocence (and with sufficient presence succeed in arguing it) without having to argue that the cop is mafia.
On April 13 2012 02:13 Mattchew wrote: I think gf/roleblocker/framer options still allow for talking around DT checks
of the options you mentioned only the framer lets you talk around a red dt check, which is why a framer can substitute a miller in this kind of setup. Its still better to leave the possibility of a miller in the game though.
On April 13 2012 02:13 Mattchew wrote: I think gf/roleblocker/framer options still allow for talking around DT checks
of the options you mentioned only the framer lets you talk around a red dt check, which is why a framer can substitute a miller in this kind of setup. Its still better to leave the possibility of a miller in the game though.
I mean since a cop isn't guaranteed, the possibility of a framer should be enough to work around a red check.
Also, I just fear the thought that scum can get a mislynch off a DT check without even having to do anything. This is fine in a normal game, but newb towns have a hard enough time arguing out of mislynches, why make it harder on them?
On April 13 2012 02:13 Mattchew wrote: I think gf/roleblocker/framer options still allow for talking around DT checks
of the options you mentioned only the framer lets you talk around a red dt check, which is why a framer can substitute a miller in this kind of setup. Its still better to leave the possibility of a miller in the game though.
I mean since a cop isn't guaranteed, the possibility of a framer should be enough to work around a red check.
Also, I just fear the thought that scum can get a mislynch off a DT check without even having to do anything. This is fine in a normal game, but newb towns have a hard enough time arguing out of mislynches, why make it harder on them?
I prefer not to coddle newbies.
Plus, you don't actually have to have any millers in the game itself, just keep them on the list of roles that could be in the game, and you're good to go.
Either way, its a preference thing, but I really don't think that option should be taken away from newbie hosts who want to use them. I mean newbie hosts who don't want millers are free to not include them on their role lists.
I have never played at all but it looks fun, especially after looking at those aperture mafia blogs. I know it won't be as crazy as that game, though.
Also, is there a lynch day 1? If so, what are you supposed to base your lynch on because nothing has happened yet?
I don't see ##Vote: No Lynch as an option in the rules, so I believe there will definitely be a lynch on Day 1. From what I've gathered in my extremely limited experience with Mafia, people get lynched on Day 1 for a variety of reasons, be it lurking, being a giant asshole, etc. That said, I believe it's rare that the Day 1 lynch is based on really good information.
I don't see ##Vote: No Lynch as an option in the rules, so I believe there will definitely be a lynch on Day 1. From what I've gathered in my extremely limited experience with Mafia, people get lynched on Day 1 for a variety of reasons, be it lurking, being a giant asshole, etc. That said, I believe it's rare that the Day 1 lynch is based on really good information.
So pretty much people just start talking on Day 1 about whatever, and then people vote based on whatever little info they have. Thanks.
I have never played at all but it looks fun, especially after looking at those aperture mafia blogs. I know it won't be as crazy as that game, though.
Also, is there a lynch day 1? If so, what are you supposed to base your lynch on because nothing has happened yet?
These types of questions are better directed to the coaches, right now It's just Mattchew but a few more will likely volunteer their services before we start.
The reason why I don't want to answer "how should I play?" questions is because as hosts me and Jitsu are neutral. We don't participate in the game, we run it so it wouldn't be right for us to tell you how to play. Even general advice such as how to go on day 1 is a grayzone for us.
I can tell you that reading one or two other games day 1 might help you understand better.
On April 13 2012 06:51 Solohan50 wrote: So looking at the roles, Mafia doesn't have a night-kill? Am I reading that right?
The mafia chooses a person to perform the nightkill (Note that if the mafia member chosen is targeted by a jailkeeper the kill will fail.)
The mafia chooses a person to perform the nightkill (Note that if the mafia member chosen is targeted by a jailkeeper the kill will fail.)
Interesting. Sorry for the newbish questions, my one and only game of Mafia (Newbie VI) had a dedicated hitman role, so this is new to me. Does this mean that the mafia can choose a different hitman each night?
I'll try to read you better BlueyD. And maybe not play so bad all around. Question and think about motivations. That's something that sticks in my mind.
On April 13 2012 12:42 Therapist. wrote: I'll try to read you better BlueyD. And maybe not play so bad all around. Question and think about motivations. That's something that sticks in my mind.
Hey now, you didn't play so badly. Just because things didn't go your way that time doesn't mean you were bad!
Rofl if that is the case bluey, i will gladly get you killed/trick you again <3 And LOL@ mementoss. im thinking of writing the first 24ish hours of my posts without having seen role pm And if day 1 turns out like Newbie Mini Mafia VIII i will probably just random the person who i feel is the most scummy. i can barely comprehend the spammy-bad cases and beautiful scumtells that can only be performed by towns members, much to the chagrin of those playing in the game. Isnt it great observing? Ready to make a fool out of myself, tomorrow :D And once again, meta will be totally different. at least i hope. i get tired of my own fluff posting, and thats when i know i need to change something.
Nuke leaned back in his favourite chair. He looked out the window and gazed over the rooftops and let the memorys draw him back. When Radfield sent him here six years ago. It was ment as a punnishment, this town had been nothing and Nuke knew he had been sent here to be forgotten. The town was backwater place with nothing but dust and whores. An upstart rival family were at war with the remains of an old group of smugglers for control over what little was left of an old distillery and it's operations. It had taken two years to watch as they took out eachother. When they were exhausted he and his few loyal men had gone in and crushed both in a single day. He had assimilating the survivors from both sides into his new organisation. The Risk Family. Hell with Radfield, he had sent him here to die. Then he had spent four years expanding the business and now the town was more profitable then ever.
A rough knock on the doors rose him from his thoughts. 'Enter' he said and looked as the door swung open revealing four men. He identified three of them as his latest recruits. 'I was expecting GreYMisT he continued. Who in hell are you?' 'My name is Jitsu' said the new man in the door. 'Boss Radfield is most impressed with what you've accomplished here. Fear suddenly filled his body. 'However the boss is also very... very... dissapointed in you. You! Show him how dissapointed the boss is.' One of the recruits brought out a gun from within his coat and slowly raised it. 'Radfield says goodbye' the man began. Shit!Nuke throw himself below his desk. It was almost two feet of solid oak he thought, no way their bullets could penetrate that. But the invaders took little notice. They had all pulled their guns now and were advancing through the room. Nuke scrambled for his own revolver. I'll take them with me was his final thought as he rose up and the gunfire started!
'Shit' one of the men said, 'he had the code to the bomb'. 'What do we do now?' asked the second survivor looking around for advice. We finnish the job the last man said. 'Wipe out the town'...
risk.nuke The Leader of the Town have been murdered. Jitsu The Mafia Specialist have been killed.There have been a murder in the town. At the emergency town meeting you have all agreed that every evening starting tonight you will hang a man untill the murderer(s) are found.
Okay, thank god, not mafia :D I want to point something out. Note how both The Leader of the Town and Jitsu The Mafia Specialist died? Thats what we want here. Take someone down with you if you are a townie. Dont die in vain, at least post your thoughts first. I have the utmost confidence in our abilities as a town together to kill the mafia. BUT, until we get the town together, we will suck. So play a team game. Dont decide *SCREW EVERYONE ELSE, i understand exactly whats happening." So lets get this started.
Day 1 is imo fine for lurker lynch. other days it is probably going to be hard to weigh the options between lynching a lurker and lynching on suspicions, but Day 1 we can do it for sure. And if we lynch someone who is obviously bad townie i will want to kill myself.
I think it's important to remember that this is a newbie game.
From my observing of the last few newbie games, it seems everyone is quick to jump on newbie townie mistakes and make a scum read, and this gives the mafia a good chance to capitalise on the confusion and get an easy town lynch. I think it's important to bare this in mind when building cases, especially in the early stages where we have very little information to work with.
@Nova, I agree with lurker lynch on Day 1, and am looking forward to seeing some posting activity.
Sup everyone! So I'm kinda noob at this atm, but as far as I have come to understand it is very hard to kill a scum on the very first day. It is however quite possible to get some good information. We should get the conversation going as soon as possible so that we at the very least get something usefull out of the day1 lynch. I also kinda like the idea to lynch or at least threaten to lynch some lurkers rather than going for the one with who "scumslips" Most of the time(at least in the games if lookad at) the day1 lynching is basically a choise between 2 townies that doesn't quite understand how the game works and apears both to be scum but rather are two noob-townies. The mafia doesn't seem to have to big of a problem to blend in the first day.
On April 14 2012 23:55 Nova_Terra wrote: Yeah so thats pretty much what i said with more fluff.
If you are going to agree with someone agree with them and move onto something else instead of posting a 1 paragraph flufffest like the above post.
It's day 1, only a few posts in. I don't think jumping on people for what you consider fluff at this point is a good way to get the communication flowing. Give people a chance to see the day has started, let them get their initial thoughts and positions out there and then we might have something to work with.
There is likely to be some repetition early on, but it's all we have to work with right now. If it continues, by all means I think you should call it out.
- Day 1, I'll lynch a lurker unless there's good info out. - I've seen 2 games where people jump on the village idiot for their lynches and they're never scum. They're just bad. They're also 1 less townie in the game and 1 waste of a lynch, that helps scum more than us.
I want to add something to Nova's 1st post (play together as a team) as well: Playing with the team does not mean bandwagoning like a sheep. Do your own analysis, and if you think you have a better case than what's being discussed then POST IT.
Yes, agree with Bluey. Pure, I'm going to ride fluff posting especially if its the first post. Getting initial thoughts and positions is totally fine however. Also im going to try damn hard to stop people making useless repetitions. Not saying that people cannot say "I agree with said point" but im not going to let people get away with posting a ton of fluffy crap which pretty much says exactly that.
I agree with the lurker lynch posts. In my opinon it sounds like a good plan because that will force mafias to come out of hiding and post stuff. Posts that will help our cases in the future.
Yeah, lynching lurkers isn't a terrible idea (it's not spectacular either though), especially if you make it known ahead of time. That (should) inspire everyone to post at least a little bit, giving us more information on Day 1 and hopefully leading to better lynches. With any luck though, everyone will be active and we can avoid having to lynch a lurker. If the lurker that gets lynched Day 1 is Town, then we gain almost no information, because they haven't posted anything.
I've learned from a lot of my mistakes from the last game, so hopefully I can provide some better analysis this game. I'll be on the lookout for fluff and I'll be trying to think about what motivations people have for posting what they do.
I think a big mistake I made in the last game in regards to reading Nova's scum posts was glazing over them and not even considering that the fluffiness might be scummy. As important as it is to tell scum from the content of their posts, it's important to try to tell who is trying to go over our heads/distract us as well.
On April 14 2012 23:55 Nova_Terra wrote: Yeah so thats pretty much what i said with more fluff.
If you are going to agree with someone agree with them and move onto something else instead of posting a 1 paragraph flufffest like the above post.
True, tho I added that I'd rather lynch someone in order to archive information than just some random lurker. And besides there really isn't much to discuss yet.
As i said before, you do gain something from lyniching or threatening to lynch lurkers. It makes them come out of hiding and gives us material for future cases.
Also i want to note that in regards to fluff posting, doing some of that is fine if its backed up by posts full of original analysis and opinion, as well as if people dont consider you to be active or "confirmed town" because of that posting.
Hi. A lurker lynch is fine by me, unless we spark discussion and pinpoint a scum agenda. I'd like everyone to keep their posts neat and concise and most of all state a good reason for the way you vote (that goes for you too, nova). Always explain why you find other peoples arguments conclusive or bad, don't just insult them even if it's obvious that their logic is faulty. Be original
@Solohan50 A lurker isn't someone who doesn't post at all, but rather someone who's posting is unnecessary, without any purpose. Those who fail to post or vote will be replaced by mods so don't worry about them.
On April 15 2012 02:43 Nova_Terra wrote: Also i want to note that in regards to fluff posting, doing some of that is fine if its backed up by posts full of original analysis and opinion, as well as if people dont consider you to be active or "confirmed town" because of that posting.
if you make fluff posts but also have many posts with opinions and original analysis, that is okay as long as people dont think that you are more active or pro town because of fluffy activity. ##Unvote
Also i find it depressing that i was gone for 4 hours and there is 1 new post. If people dont post more than their first post, they are also lurkers. After the few remaining non-posters, i will fall onto the fluffposters and 1posters like a wolf onto its prey. So dont stop posting once you are safe dammit
I think Nova_Terra is just trying to spark some activity amongst people. I think that is a perfectly fine strategy.
Anyway, good morning all. First real game of Mafia, played in the big game that GMarshal tried to host a while ago which turned into a mess of modkills and replacements.
It seems I agree with the majority in terms of accepting a lynch on a lurker. I think a very important aspect of playing mafia is to set an atmosphere where posting is encouraged. The more people post, the more we have to analyse which is critical to getting good reads and not making poor decisions.
So far it looks like we have had some activity from the majority of players which is good to see.
Another issue that I believe is important, you should always try to justify your logic behind your voting. Doing so will provide valuable insight as to what you are thinking.
I should probably clarify that the acceptance of a lurker lynch of obviously conditioned on the fact that there are no other suspects out there. I think from Day 2 onwards hopefully we have sufficient information to make a logical and well reasoned lynch.
@Nova - You have posted a lot, and contributed very little at this stage. You have five posts repeating your stance on fluff posting, as well as four vote/unvote posts on supposed lurkers - this seems a little excessive considering its in the first few hours of day 1.
I think you should focus on your own contributions at this stage rather than repeating the same fluff line over and over, as all I see is someone creating a prescence for themselves without actually contributing.
However, this early in the game I am more willing to let it slide simply because I understand your intentions, they are simply to get people involved in the discussion etc.
After the first couple of days I am less willing to treat this in a similar manner, simply because I don't think it really serves a purpose to encourage people to spam up the thread. This would only serve to muddy the waters etc.
Clearly there is a balancing act involved, we want to encourage activity but not meaningless spam. People need to post, however I would prefer they be clear and concise and actually contribute to the discussion.
And the reason you feel you need to honor this behavior with a lurker post of your own is.. ? No one managed to break the barrier yet but that's A ok as long as we keep scores, note checkpoints of development. I suggest everyone keeps a journal of some sort, aiming to capture the essence of our interaction, always driven by the curiosity to make out the motive behind every post in order to detect slips. Like Therapist said, and I can agree wholeheartedly, it's a good place to start improving. Also, a journal can keep you creative and occupied in times of a deserted thread, augmenting the gameplay imo. I'll start mine tomorrow and maybe at the end of the game, if it's not too shabby, I'll make it public. Good Night y'all.
Hi guys I just got to online so this would be my first post after the game commenced, if my english is not good enough hope you guys can bared with me.
First, there are 12 of us here with 3 of them are mafias if a random lynch occurs it is more likely to happen on a townie since there is only a chance of 25% we will get the correct lynch on maf. If there is nothing suspicious around I would like to vote for a no lynch in the day 1.
Also, it would be nice if someone could stand out and be a leader among us and make some decision since we have to trust someone in the end of the day.
I disagree with the idea of a no lynch day 1. I agree that we most likely won't get a mafia, but that doesn't mean a mislynch is entirely bad. If there isn't a lynch day 1, no one takes a stand on the lynch, and we don't learn much because there is no discussion of who to lynch. This also means that the power roles will be at a disadvantage because their choices for their night 1 actions will be mostly random due to the lack of information. With a lynch, everyone has to take a side, so even if this only provides a small amount of information, it is information the power roles can use to narrow down the targets of their actions.
On Nova's voting behavior: Nova played in my previous 2 games so he saw what happened there: First wave of D1 votes came in late, we had very little time to do post-voting analysis, and the resulting situation was chaotic. The intention here is probably just to try and put on 'real' pressure on lurkers earlier so the latter parts of the day is cleaner. A bit spammy but not a scummy move.
---
To oneplus: Just 2 questions aimed at you to show you why 1. saying no-lynch is bad, and 2. having a leader is very bad.
1. How do we pressure scum D1 if we agree to no-lynch? 2. What if the ‘town leader’ who makes the decisions for you is actually scum?
---
era was very active last game, though more in terms of quantity than in terms of quality. Haven’t seen him post since the start of this game yet, though, so my first vote goes to him.
People really need to start posting now, it's been almost 24 h since the day post came up, and we still only got ~2 pages of posts during that time.
era was very active last game, though more in terms of quantity than in terms of quality. Haven’t seen him post since the start of this game yet, though, so my first vote goes to him.
##Vote:era
I think it's a decent idea to start pressuring era now, however if he doesn't show up at all I guess he will be replaced anyway. Therefore we don't need to care to much about it as of now.
@oneplus and @Crossfire - A lynch on day 1 is mandatory, and voting is mandatory. If you read the earlier pages, most have agreed with the lurker lynch day 1 approach if no scum reads have been made.
@BlueyD - As it's been 24 hours with no post yet, I agree with your vote on era.
Although i agree that i havent contributed much, i have actually contributed more than most of the people here! I have expressed my opinion on voting day 1 clearly without useless fluff I have expressed my opinion on fluff posters I have pressured lurkers I have pressured said fluff posters
I agree with you(Nova) on Solohan, but I think it will be hard de determ whether that is due to him being town and expressing himself the right way or if he is actuall scum.
I also think that it is time for Macheji to step up a bit more. He has posted 4 posts so far, but all of them have been very short and havn't added anything useful yet.
I do think it's odd that he wouldn't have read the rules (it's clearly stated on the front page). I'd like to see him add more to his very short filter.
@Solohan - how do you respond to Nova reading your first post to be scummy?
On April 15 2012 18:19 Pure-SC2 wrote: Some interesting points raised regarding Solohan.
I do think it's odd that he wouldn't have read the rules (it's clearly stated on the front page). I'd like to see him add more to his very short filter.
@Solohan - how do you respond to Nova reading your first post to be scummy?
Actually, to me, the rules don't say anything about No Lynches. They do say that voting is mandatory and that you may not abstain, but (in my mind, at least) voting for a No Lynch is not abstaining. Abstaining would be not voting at all, which is far different from voting for a No Lynch. Before the game, I thought that since No Lynch wasn't explicitly stated, that means it wasn't allowed, hence my pre-game post to Crossfire99. After I noticed people talking about No Lynches once the game had started, I became unsure of whether it was allowed or not. Honestly, I'm still not sure if No Lynches are allowed or not. If they're not, then all of discussion about them is a moot point right now and just clogs up the thread.
As for my first post of the game, I don't know why Nova would think it's scummy. He doesn't really raise any points for me to counter, he just says "It's scummy". My analysis is based on the Mafia guide that I've been reading which says that lynching Town members generally doesn't give much information. This would be doubly true if we lynch a lurker who hasn't said much, because there's no information about that person. The whole point of the post was to encourage people to post more, so we can avoid having to lynch a lurker. In my eyes, unless we get lucky and the lurker is Mafia, we benefit very little and we're down one more player.
Very little activity, and so many lurkers is giving the mafia an easy ride so far. We need everyone posting so there is more material out there for us to work with.
Those that have posted and contributed very little so far, and who really need to add something asap in order to not fall under suspicion: Macheji Therapist. oneplus
And, era. Era still hasn't posted, and is looking likely to be modkilled/replaced at this stage. I'll see if there is anything from him later in the day, and if not will remove my vote on him as no point wasting a vote on someone who is going to be modkilled.
Solohan50 - The thing is that getting a mafiakill on the first day is really hard unless they royally screw up, which we really shouldn't count on even if this a noob game. In most cases it is better to lynch a person acting strange to at least get some usefull information on why they were acting that way.If he flips townie/blue you could also start to question thoose who wanted to lynch him and their motives.
But so far this discussion has been very light and therefore the information given would be very small. If this continues we might be forced into lynch a lurker, which will basically have a very little chance of successand will get zero info.
As for no lynches I have no idea whether that is possible or not, but even if it is we are just buying time for the scum to score some free kills. Thus it might even be better to make a misslynch and get some info, instead of lynching noone. Tho atm I really doubt that will be the case(gaining info, that is).
Good morning again all. Sorry I was out all Saturday. I actually like the heavy posting coming from Nova so far. Our last day one had barely any activity whatsoever then we had a mislynch day one, so I am in agreement with anything that gets people to post more. Still, information is likely to be thin but at least it gets the conversation going.
The idea of a no lynch day one is interesting. In my first games, I would've been against the idea immediately. But after two games of lynching a townie immediately with no information... even almost lynching a blue and forcing him to roleclaim day one, a no-lynch day one seems more reasonable. We're very unlikely to have any real information, and a no lynch ensures that only one townie dies day one and the blues get a chance to do their thing without randomly getting lynched and we can get some information going for the next day. I'd be willing to do a no-lynch day one this time around.
@Therapist and solohan50 - I really think that's a bad/scummy way of looking at the no lynch. Even if we end up lynching a townie we will at least obtain a bit info. If we instead end up no lynching we will still know nothing and the mafia will most likely proceed to kill a lurker. So basically we are back at square 1 then except the mafia is one person close to victory. If anthing, the no lynch should be the last resort if we really fuck up and doesn't get anything done.
On April 16 2012 00:56 Lazermonkey wrote: @Therapist and solohan50 - I really think that's a bad/scummy way of looking at the no lynch. Even if we end up lynching a townie we will at least obtain a bit info. If we instead end up no lynching we will still know nothing and the mafia will most likely proceed to kill a lurker. So basically we are back at square 1 then except the mafia is one person close to victory. If anthing, the no lynch should be the last resort if we really fuck up and doesn't get anything done.
What's the least bit of info we obtain from lynching a townie day one? In my first game, we almost mislynched a blue cop and he roleclaimed and completely lost the ability to obtain any real information all game. In our second game, we just randomly lynched someone and could get no real information from it (seriously, the extent of it was "oh that sucks oh well"). I don't see why you say that having only one person killed in a day/night cycle brings the mafia closer to victory. If anything, they are one person FURTHER from victory which is the entire basis for wanting a no lynch.
So please, honestly, tell me how to learn things from a day one lynch. If there is a way, then I am just too bad to know it at this point and would love the tips.
Personally I think seeing a few no lynch calls makes some people seem suspicious to me based on what I'm reading, and I think if we have no lurkers of fluffies to lynch they may be a good place to start. That being said I sort of thing Nova is rather lynch happy and quite willing to swap lynch too readily.
What now? Why would i not swap off of a pressure vote when the idea was to get that person to post? are you trying to tell me i should do exactly what i did as scum last game and be like, MEH, He posted, but i want to lynch him anyway? That hardly makes sense. Also, Lynching a lurker provides benefits like being able to see who voted when, peoples stances, and more importantly it sets an expectation that people who lurk will die. as an incentive to post. There isnt positive reinforcement on this game. If you lurk, you die. if you're active, you still might die, but at least you'll be helpful to the town first.
I am here for another few hours tonight. am hoping to see a lot more activity within the next day. more activity, more posting analysis, etc. Course, this does not mean that fluff posting is okay. on to more important matters, next we should go after people who dont seem really dumb but are making posts with a strange motivation behind them. purpose behind the posts is a huge teller as to what the players alignment is. Please feel free to question me while i am here.
On April 16 2012 00:56 Lazermonkey wrote: @Therapist and solohan50 - I really think that's a bad/scummy way of looking at the no lynch. Even if we end up lynching a townie we will at least obtain a bit info. If we instead end up no lynching we will still know nothing and the mafia will most likely proceed to kill a lurker. So basically we are back at square 1 then except the mafia is one person close to victory. If anthing, the no lynch should be the last resort if we really fuck up and doesn't get anything done.
What's the least bit of info we obtain from lynching a townie day one? In my first game, we almost mislynched a blue cop and he roleclaimed and completely lost the ability to obtain any real information all game. In our second game, we just randomly lynched someone and could get no real information from it (seriously, the extent of it was "oh that sucks oh well"). I don't see why you say that having only one person killed in a day/night cycle brings the mafia closer to victory. If anything, they are one person FURTHER from victory which is the entire basis for wanting a no lynch.
So please, honestly, tell me how to learn things from a day one lynch. If there is a way, then I am just too bad to know it at this point and would love the tips.
On April 16 2012 00:56 Lazermonkey wrote: @Therapist and solohan50 - I really think that's a bad/scummy way of looking at the no lynch. Even if we end up lynching a townie we will at least obtain a bit info. If we instead end up no lynching we will still know nothing and the mafia will most likely proceed to kill a lurker. So basically we are back at square 1 then except the mafia is one person close to victory. If anthing, the no lynch should be the last resort if we really fuck up and doesn't get anything done.
What's the least bit of info we obtain from lynching a townie day one? In my first game, we almost mislynched a blue cop and he roleclaimed and completely lost the ability to obtain any real information all game. In our second game, we just randomly lynched someone and could get no real information from it (seriously, the extent of it was "oh that sucks oh well"). I don't see why you say that having only one person killed in a day/night cycle brings the mafia closer to victory. If anything, they are one person FURTHER from victory which is the entire basis for wanting a no lynch.
So please, honestly, tell me how to learn things from a day one lynch. If there is a way, then I am just too bad to know it at this point and would love the tips.
The thing is, we really get the ship rollin' and start to discuss. If we start pressuring and we really pressure someone to the point where they are very close to get lynched they will obviously start to deffend themselfs, either by explaining their actions or to that they tell their opinion on who they think is mafia . Also in a close vote alot of information can be obtained by watching who voted for who(as nova said).
##Vote: Macheji
Btw, could we get some info of whether no lynches are possible or not? That we we could start to talk about more important matters instead of hypothetical fluff
Those are different subjects in my opinion. No one's saying not to vote and pressure and get things going and vote for people if they're not defending themselves. What if everyone posts up and makes a defense for themselves and all the day one pressure votes have achieved what they can achieve. What's the next move?
On April 16 2012 04:10 Therapist. wrote: Those are different subjects in my opinion. No one's saying not to vote and pressure and get things going and vote for people if they're not defending themselves. What if everyone posts up and makes a defense for themselves and all the day one pressure votes have achieved what they can achieve. What's the next move?
IF they achieved what they can achieve... you should have at least one person you should feel comfortable lynching.
I may be missing something, but I don't see how no lynches are possible? Voting is mandatory, and everyone must vote. That's how I interpret the rules anyway. Hopefully this can be clarified after Lazer's question.
@oneplus - you have been lurking for quite some time now. What do you think about TheRavensName's stance on possibly lynching one of the people who've called for a no lynch vote? We need to hear from you.
##Vote: oneplus
@Nova - Who is your most suspicious read so far?
@Therapist. There is a lot that can be learned from a day 1 lynch. It just might take another day or two for the pieces to fit together. The more discussion we have from everyone, the more we can learn from a day 1 lynch. Which is why we need to put as much pressure as possible on the lurkers.
So far I'm only getting the slightest scum reads from two people, and have nothing to base a case on. I'm hoping the activity will improve now after a quiet patch - it seems most people have checked in recently which is a good start.
If you truly are a townie you shouldn't be interested in defending yourself more than absolutly necesary. Your main interesst should lie in trying to find who REALLY is the mafia and telling that to everyone. If your arguments seems logical enough they will vote for that person. Telling everyone that you are a townie will not help at all unless you have very good proof for it(not likely on day 1). In fact staying to defensive will make you look scummy.
I don't have too many specific thoughts so far. I've just been thinking about the no-lynch stuff for the first time and have been happy to get peoples' opinions on it. Perhaps that input itself can be put to use later on, which is why I have said I would like to hear others' opinions on the matter.
@Thereapist You need the lynch in order to learn information about each person. Even if everyone defends themselves adequately, there are still going to be differing opinions on each player. A lynch is needed in order to find out the true identity of a player. With this information, we can go back and look at their posts in a new light. We can also go back to the discussion about why to vote for this player and glean more information about the other players and motivations.
Basically, a lynch is needed in order to get 100% correct information that can hopefully help the investigation. Up until this point, a lot of the investigation is speculation because no facts are known.
I also agree with Nova that I am a little suspicious of Solohan50 right now. He seems to favor a no lynch, which I think does much more harm than good.
Also I'm going to let Solohan50 find out what i find scummy about his own post and do something about it. If a vanilla townie looks at someones post and finds it scummy, theoretically another vanilla townie should be able to do the same. Im not gonna tell you how to defend yourself.
On April 16 2012 04:49 Nova_Terra wrote: Also I'm going to let Solohan50 find out what i find scummy about his own post and do something about it. If a vanilla townie looks at someones post and finds it scummy, theoretically another vanilla townie should be able to do the same. Im not gonna tell you how to defend yourself.
Do you mean his post after start was called, or before that?
I like how the discussion finally has started slow but steady. But I feel we need more people to vote. Atm I think that only 5 or 6 has thrown out their votes. Obviously you can always change your vote later on, but I think it's nice to see where we stand right at the moment. This is good for at least two reasons that I can think of:
1) People obtaining a couple of votes will start to get pressured which is good for several reasons. They might have to reveal some usefull info or AT LEAST stop to lurk. There is also a slight chance that the person who obtains votes will be a mafia, in which case some of his scum-bros might have to show their true colour in one or another way.
2) We prevent the last-minute-voteswitch. It would usually be a good idea for the scum to keep their votes as long as possible. People swaping their vote very late should have an insanly good reason to do so, or they will truly scummy as hell. If alot of people keep their votes very long. the mafia will have an easier time to blend in.
@Solohan - I'm not sure wether He is just noob or scum. Obviously we are all very new to the game so that could be an explanation for his play. But he hasn't contributed at all yet, only talking about the very hypothetical no lynch and agreeing with that lynching a lurker. Both thoose subjects had already been said at that point, more than once even. This is obviously a very suspicious move. We really need to see his response.
@Macheji, oneplus, maybe someone I missed - we really need you guys to post. Preferably sooner than later.
I'm going to to some stuffs now + sleep so it will be about 12h untill my next post. It's about 17h to lynchtime, unless I'm misstaken, so I hope we are closer some form of conclusion by the time that I check this thread again.
I know the 'no lynch' option has received a fair amount of attention, but I would like to add my opinion to the matter.
If a no lynch is even possible I don't think it is a terrible outcome, in most of the past Newbie games I have flicked through I notice that it tends to be a townie who is lynched first, and the overall odds support the same occuring more commonly than a Mafia getting lynched.
A no lynch would give us an additional 24 hours with the full contingent of players to add posts and help us all form a more well-rounded view of each player, then after the Mafia night kill we would be down to 8 townies. I would prefer this than to be down to 7 due to a mislynch on Day1.
However, there are down-sides to a no-lynch. A few people have mentioned that you get a lack of information, you don't get a flip, but you still do have the people's votes to review and you can examine their logic and reasoning behind why they put their votes where they did. But it may not necessarily mean as much without a flip.
##Vote: Macheji
For now I am going to put my vote on Macheji, he has contributed 3 posts, 2 which are essentially the same and the 3rd is questioning the logic behind 'pressure voting'. Each of the 3 posts are roughly 1 sentence each, I know we want people to be clear and concise, but you really need to make an effort to add more to your posts.
So wheres the opinion? You dont want a mislynch, obviously, you dont think no lynch is a terrible outcome, theres downsides to it... Where do you stand? posting some stuff that pretty much says a lot about nothing, especially when you cant even read what the thoughts are is a good way to not be transparent. Step it up.
Fair enough. To clarify, I would prefer to No Lynch if that is an available option, and would change my vote off Macheji if that were to become an option.
Where do you stand on the issue out of curiousity? Initially you indicated that you would be happy to lynch a lurker, I assume that is still what you are planning to do. If a no lynch was an option where do you stand?
On April 16 2012 04:27 Therapist. wrote: I don't have too many specific thoughts so far. I've just been thinking about the no-lynch stuff for the first time and have been happy to get peoples' opinions on it. Perhaps that input itself can be put to use later on, which is why I have said I would like to hear others' opinions on the matter.
, take Daymor's latest 2 posts in contrast to what others have said about wanting to lynch on Day1.. how do you think this input can be put to use later on?
I don't actually, but if by tomorrow morning there are still people who discuss stuff that is easy for scum to mindlessly participate in I'll find me a lurker and stick with the vote. I think it's about time for Nova to divulge what he finds so scummy concerning solohans' first post. We don't seem to be on the same wavelength because I have no idea what he's talking about; and scum is not going to make an objective analysis on himself for you, just because you say you think he's scum so there's no point in waiting for a reaction before you act. I-know-what-you-did-last-summer mindgames aren't likely to induce anything.
I wanna see more from Macheji and oneplus. Oneplus hasn’t replied to me, so: ##Vote: oneplus
We lost too much time and space arguing about lynch vs no-lynch already. We have to lynch, and that’s it. Enough about policy, now let’s look at people.
---
Specifically, the people who sided for a no-lynch, or 'not against'.
On therapist: His stance seems to me like an overreaction to last game, but at least there was a developed thought process behind it. Needs to let go of policy discussion and contribute on analyzing people now, though. On oneplus: Asked for a no-lynch in his one and only post, and he’s inactive as well... Can’t read more into him until he posts again. On Solohan: Was already enquiring about the possibility of a no-lynch before he knew his role, so I’m inclined to say he actually thinks no-lynch is a move a town should consider seriously, which makes him... bad.
---
On Daymor: In chronological order...
It seems I agree with the majority in terms of accepting a lynch on a lurker.
A little precision right after, nothing wrong with it:
(...) acceptance of a lurker lynch of obviously conditioned on the fact that there are no other suspects out there.
No-lynch is talked about a bunch, he seems to think it would be ok:
If a no lynch is even possible I don't think it is a terrible outcome (…)
And then, he ‘clarifies’ and no-lynch goes from ok to good:
To clarify, I would prefer to No Lynch if that is an available option, (…)
Now that’s more interesting. This guy’s opinion managed to go from “lurker lynch” to “no-lynch ok” to “no-lynch preferable”. That’s the wrong direction for a townie entirely.
I did change my stance along the way there, that much is evident. Initially I did not really consider no lynch as an option. Most games where a no lynch is allowed they typically state such in the rules. I know I saw a game which had that noted in the rules, for example this game.
6. Voting is mandatory. You may (NOT) abstain. If a no Lynch is reached, everyone must still have casted a vote (you can vote for ##Vote: No-Lynch)
I don't see what's wrong with wanting some more activity and posting from people before forming such an important decision. I still stand by what I said. If a no lynch is an option it is the option I would prefer. In the alternative a lurker would be acceptable assuming we can't find a suitable suspect.
I would also like to add, that although the discussion regarding lynch v no lynch may not mean anything if indeed you cannot vote for a no lynch. It does however provide the opportunity for people to comment and add their perspective as to what they feel about the policy. This provides us with information which we can analyse nd to help show the motivation and logic behind their arguements. So it is far from fruitless.
Sorry guys i was busy, finally i am able to catch up the thread. Well I am the first one to come out with the no lynch idea, let me explain abit about this. It would be a bit suspicious about me to come out with this but no lynch it's not no pressure for the scums we could see some potential scums coming out and want to lynch some townie in day 1 or he might be happy for no lynch in day 1 and try to go for a no lynch since they will be able to kill at night. From here we might get some information hence no lynch doesn't mean no information at all and it is bad.
I will assume that is in regards to the no lynch issues? If so tell us what about the no lynch you don't like? I know you only replaced in recently, but you haven't really contributed except for a hello post and a couple of one-liners.
If it is not in regards to the no lynch, who are you liking less and why?
I do not think that no lynch would be beneficial, for the reasons i explained earlier. It gives us voting patterns, arguments, sets an example for the future, as well as a possible lurker kill if done correctly. Correctly meaning hitting a lurker who isnt a total non poster but someone who makes posts with nothing in them like Macheji. Once again, i want to see what solohan thinks regarding his own first post before I note what i find scummy. BlueyD brought up a good point on Daymor; I will bear this in mind. Also oneplus' amount of apology is scummy
I have reviewed Solohan's first couple of posts a couple times, and I honestly don't find anything nearly as much of an eyebrow raiser as what you mentioned in your first post. So I must say I am quite keen to see what you have picked up that I have missed.
In reference to what I find strange about your first post is simply;
On April 14 2012 23:02 Nova_Terra wrote:
Okay, thank god, not mafia :D I want to point something out. Note how both The Leader of the Town and Jitsu The Mafia Specialist died? Thats what we want here. Take someone down with you if you are a townie. Dont die in vain, at least post your thoughts first. I have the utmost confidence in our abilities as a town together to kill the mafia. BUT, until we get the town together, we will suck. So play a team game. Dont decide *SCREW EVERYONE ELSE, i understand exactly whats happening." So lets get this started.
I don't really know who you are trying to convince with that statement. In my opinion you are doing enough for the town for me to believe you are more likely town than Mafia. I like your activity and the pressure voting you applied early to try and spark some activity.
So I just don't understand why you said that. Judging by your posting it's not like you needed too. Just some food for thought.
So I wake up, read the thread and tbh I'm quite dissapointed in the progress made during the night. We are getting nowhere atm. We really need to stop discuss the possibility of no lynches.
I would also like to add, that although the discussion regarding lynch v no lynch may not mean anything if indeed you cannot vote for a no lynch. It does however provide the opportunity for people to comment and add their perspective as to what they feel about the policy. This provides us with information which we can analyse nd to help show the motivation and logic behind their arguements. So it is far from fruitless.
I agree with you, but this would only occur if everyone had posted really good opinions and cases. We aren't even close to that point right now. The following effects of a no lynch atm would probebly be something in line with:
1. Noone is lynched 2. Mafia most likely get a kill since there is such a small chance that the roleblocker/jailer would hit the right target due to little information. 3. The killed target townie and is a lurker/person who only posted that no lynch is a good opinion. 4. No info is have been archived.
On April 16 2012 11:16 oneplus wrote: Sorry guys i was busy, finally i am able to catch up the thread. Well I am the first one to come out with the no lynch idea, let me explain abit about this. It would be a bit suspicious about me to come out with this but no lynch it's not no pressure for the scums we could see some potential scums coming out and want to lynch some townie in day 1 or he might be happy for no lynch in day 1 and try to go for a no lynch since they will be able to kill at night. From here we might get some information hence no lynch doesn't mean no information at all and it is bad.
##VOTE : No lynch
I'm not sure if noob or scum, but This has been said over 9000 times in this thread. Please post something new...
Yes if no lynch occurs probably mafia get to kill 1 at night, but if we lynch a townie mean mafia got to kill 2 ? at the start of day 2. Since most of you guys already knew that a random lynch in day 1 will probably lynch a town yet u guys are still going for it, sound scummy isn't it?
I want to clarify no lynch doesnt mean we archive nothing in day 1. I just don't want you guys fall into the scummy trap to lynch a townie in day 1 since this is the newbie game lurker might just be a townie who don't really know how to play and express himself.
This suspicion on Crossfire is mainly coming from my gut but here are a couple of logical reasons to vote for him:
4 posts. 3 and 7/8 of which are about the no-lynch policy while the remaining 1/8 of the last post is sheeping Nova and calling solohan suspicious without any of you two providing reasons (Nova refused yet again to manifest - well at this point I want him to stall some more, and let's hear why Crossfire thinks solo is suspicious first)
If you can add a single valid argument about solo being scummy I will drop my vote. Note that the fact that he supports a no-lynch isn't good enough, it's null imo.
On April 15 2012 06:43 Crossfire99 wrote: I agree with lynching a lurker day 1, but only if there is really no info on scum. We should try to lynch a scum if at all possible.
P.S. GL HF
might also be null but I think unconsciously you were telling us that you're mafia because you choose to basically shake hands with town to show us how mannered you are. + Show Spoiler +
Well my reason is that a mislynch in day 1 is very likely to happen if we do not have enough information and find out that guy is like 80% is scummy. Lazer and Nova are very firm to lynch someone even they couldn't comfirm someone is scum. But since no lynch are not allowed in this game my point are not make sense anymore i will re read everything and make my decision on who to vote
Nova sound like he is a leader here and try to bring out the scummy, and he is constantly refering that he was a mafia in a previous game which is a past tense it is not benificial at all. And I feel that lazer and Nova are kinda in a team because they do not question each other but try to question others and make theirself looks clean.
There you go Nova is suspicious here if he is a townie he should not be that kind of over reacted in this case! Blue and Pure are the 2 who are trying to lynch me but why am I not accusing 2 of them but Nova and Lazer? Your defending don't make sense at all. Now you are trying to say I am a bad town as I feel suspicious on you =p
Also, I am 100% understand you want to lynch lurker in day1 beacuse lurker is not contribute to the town.
What are you talking about.... Both Lazin and I said that you were suspicious etc. Also how did i overreact... I said you were OMGUS and then found your "case" funny for voting one of the most active members in the game. Also if you thing it is still overreaction see the only game i played as townie, think its SNMMVIII. I overreact and OMGUS all day. Although you are still incorrect.
Also If you understand why i want to lynch a lurker why do you say that going for a lynch makes me scummy? That doesnt make sense. and in your "case" you say that im being a leader and trying to bring out the scum. Thats a town trait. And being a mafia in a game and referencing it most certainly helps. Seeing as Lazer is being useful to town and stepping up, of course i dont think hes scum.
I am not the one who say this. You are the one who said you and lazer accused me? I said you guys sound like a team.
On April 16 2012 18:09 Nova_Terra wrote: Also thats OMGUS because both Lazer and I accused you as doing something scummy. Suddenly we're scummy in your opinion. Smart.
And yeah now you are protecting lazer. In what earth the most active player couldn't be scum? Well I could be wrong if you are town and the scum will be lurking around and clapping his hand to see 2 of us try to attack each others
I said hes being useful and stepping up. I did not say he is definitely town because of it. Yes, both lazer and i noted scummy things about you. Suddenly, we are your targets and a "team". And pointing out that last point is totally worthless. Quit making it seem like you have more than you do or that this is somehow my fault.
I'm convinced that oneplus is a townie atm. His posts are far too stupid in order to be a scum. He might not understand it himself, but he is actually screaming to get lynched atm. Please think about what you piost in the future, if you really are a townie.
Really, it doesn't make any fucking sence at all. I said that you havn't contributed at all yet, except for for discussing hypothetical no lynches. So that means you been more or less worthless up untill the point where you started to suspect me and Nova. It is good that you have finally stated your opinions on something more than no lynches. But I really don't understand why start accusing me and Nova. Both of us have contributed infinity more than for example solohan50. Your evidence is also very thin, only being based upon the fact that we both think that no lynches are a bad idea. I have explained why I think they are bad, and that if they mafia plays their cards right, no information will be archived. Not that it matters anything now that we know that no lynches aren't possible. But it does explain why I said that it was a bad idea.
As for my true scumtells, basically almost everyone atm. There have been several persons basically been hardcore lurking all game. I also don't really understand the people who wanted to no lynch day 1 as it seems to me to be very scum-favored to go for a no lynch. I'm keeping my vote untill anything happends.
This game is truly a mess atm with half of it participants being afk all the time...
Yep, Bad town on oneplus. Also, Shame on any townie here that is lurking. Shame on you. Actually, if we mislynch day 1, I blame you lurkers. I hate people so much
If Nova is our leader then I would like to propose a mutiny to Pure-SC2, TheRavensName and Daymor and establish the council of 4 as our new form of leadership organization with BlueyD as a respected outside consultant Nova and Lazermonkey will be treated as outcasts for discouraging oneplus from posting and being generally to harsh on him by calling him the N word. Our first order of business shall be to review my suspicions of Crossfire99 with a secondary focus on Macheji
Yoyo nova, why you are keep repeating that you and Lazer accused me as scummy which make me think you guys are scum? Did you see blueyD and pure are the 2 who voting for me? Why i didnt accuse 2 of them but you and lazer? I got my point of view you cant shut my mouth up and force everyone to believe in you just because you are active?
Also, the one who contribute the most could be scum too "when everything seem so good you know something wrong about it"
Maybe because we both said you were scummy, and then you accused both of us and OMGUS'ed. which is why i said that. Thats a pressure vote, not for a reason. Dont ask me why you accused them, and thats just WIFOM. and obviously someone who is a town leader seeming thing can be scum. thats what i did last game. Also, You're the one who said i was being a leader, so dont blame me for that.
Yeah yeah, This is technically my 3rd game because LI got messed up, but I can see why you would want to remove me. As to my reasons to smurf (not really, because I didn't plan on playing with my FF account anymore), I wanted to get away from my meta. Doing crazy stuff to make people believe I'm town is too hard but looks like I managed to pull it off involuntarily this time. If I can stay, everyone should ignore this incident and consider the first FourFace post to be attributed to me. Thank You.
Well well. There has been quite some activity since I started doing a complete filter review. It's interesting because it has reinforced the conclusions I came to on my own.
## Unvote
The case against Nova_Terra:
- Nova_Terra's overly emphasised townie position:
The case begins prior to the game even starting. Nova (who has been scum in previous games - I'd recommend a review of Newbie Mini Mafia VII ) is quick to distance himself and reinforce his town stance prior to the game even starting:
Im awful town, so i need to work at it during my last newbie game (aka this one)
He's telling us he's awful town, and that he will be working on it during this game. He is trying to reinforce his town position before the game has even started.
One the game starts, his first post includes this line:
Okay, thank god, not mafia :D
This immediately made me suspicious, as I don't understand why someone who had received a town role would need to state this. The only motive I can determine for stating this is scummy.
Nova said the following in response to Daymor who questioned this:
I said that because ive been mafia the past two games and i didnt feel like dealing with the stress this time around.
Again you try to distance yourself from the fact you were mafia in previous games ("you didn't feel like dealing with the stress this time around") however you have no choice over that. You may or may not have been given a role as mafia or town. I find the wording you used here to be very strange and is not the response I would've expected to Daymor's question.
- Nova_Terra's posting without contributing:
On its own I wouldn't say this means anything, and it's something I posted about earlier. But in combination with a few other things it becomes more significant.
When you do a review of Nova_Terra's early filter, essentially he repeats the same stance he has on fluff posting, complains about lack of activity and votes/unvotes a few times. This is done over 14 posts, and makes him look like the most active person in the thread, but if you actually looks at what is included in all those posts, he is actually contributing very little. I find this to be mildly suspicious and it felt like he was trying to position himself as a town leader without actually contributing.
- Nova_Terra's baseless accusation of Solohan50:
I must admit I didn't look into this when it was initially posted, and it was only after a complete filter review that I really began questioning Nova's behaviour here.
Nova stated the following:
Also I find Solohan50s first post to be scummy.
Interesting. Ok, what else does Nova say about this?
Also I'm going to let Solohan50 find out what i find scummy about his own post and do something about it. If a vanilla townie looks at someones post and finds it scummy, theoretically another vanilla townie should be able to do the same. Im not gonna tell you how to defend yourself.
So if I read this correctly, Nova finds Solohan50s first post scummy, and that because he's a vanilla townie and finds it scummy, another vanilla townie should be able to do the same.
Right. I'm a vanilla townie, so let's look at Solohan50's first post for the smoking gun.
On April 15 2012 00:46 Solohan50 wrote: Yeah, lynching lurkers isn't a terrible idea (it's not spectacular either though), especially if you make it known ahead of time. That (should) inspire everyone to post at least a little bit, giving us more information on Day 1 and hopefully leading to better lynches. With any luck though, everyone will be active and we can avoid having to lynch a lurker. If the lurker that gets lynched Day 1 is Town, then we gain almost no information, because they haven't posted anything.
tl:dr Post, people!
My read on Solohan50's first post. He has stated his thoughts on lurker lynching (not a terrible idea, but doesn't really love it either). He likes the fact you can use it to put pressure on people to post day 1, which will hopefully lead to a better (which I read as more informed) lynch. He then goes on to say lynching a townie that hasn't posted anything provides almost no information.
Ok, so that's my read on his post. I've gone through it several times and don't feel like I'm missing anything here. It seems like a positive townie approach to me for a first post. What is it that Nova sees that I don't? What is his motivation for calling Solohan50 out based on this? I don't see a townie motivation for this, further increasing my suspicion.
Nova also said the following:
EBWOP: Same with His second post which pretty much is in the middle of the discussion and just asks a question instead od adding to said discussion
Solohan50's second post asked a question on No Lynches. He also asked this question pre-game so doesn't look like it's something he decided on bringing up after he received his role PM. There has obviously been some confusion around no lynch since this game started (I felt like the rules were clear but I guess since it wasn't explicitly stated it has caused confusion), and based on that (and the subsequent discussions and clarification) I don't think his question is suspicious.
*** I will add in relation to this that Solohan50 hasn't contributed a lot since, but in terms of this case against Nova_Terra it doesn't apply, as I'm referring to Nova's on Solohan50's first posts. Solohan50's lurky behaviour should be looked at seperately.
Continuing on....
- Nova_Terra's very defensive responses to oneplus:
This has happened since I did my filter review, and I haven't had a chance to go through this in as much detail as I'd like, but I have work to be done. I may re-visit this later if I see anything more after a further review.
Nova claims an OMGUS reaction reaction to oneplus, which I don't really see. Oneplus has his suspicions of Nova based on his own read, and it would be good for him to elaborate more on this.
However the point I focused on was the way Nova reacted. The defensive tone of his responses definitely do not sound like town, and the only motivation I can see for him posting that way is scummy.
- Nova_Terra's possible accomplices:
Based on my filter review, the two most likely accomplices to Nova_Terra: Lazermonkey and Crossfire99. The case against these two isn't strong, but I would recommend reading through their filter and looking at the way they support Nova on Solohan50.
Also, if you look at the interaction between Nova and Lazer against oneplus, it is also very defensive and nature and shows them supporting each other once again. I think this adds to my suspicion of Lazer who, other than his blind support of Nova's stance against Solohan, has seemed like a good contributing townie.
- Final thoughts on Nova_Terra:
After going through all this, and reviewing Nova's filter looking at him posting as a townie, and posting as scum, the only motivation I can see for his approach thus far (on areas where he has contributed) is scum. This makes me as confident as I can be that he is a good target to vote on for day 1.
## Vote: Nova_Terra
Final thoughts on oneplus - I agree on him being a bad townie, and he has certainly been targeted by Nova_Terra, which seems to be a good motivation for scum to target him and in a sense, further backs up my suspicions on Nova.
So what do you all think? If you don't agree, where do you think my reasoning is wrong? How do you read Nova_Terra based on your own review of his behaviour and filter?
EBWOP: I missed off why I thought this was relevant, but the first point I made above regarding Nova_Terra's posts prior to the game start seem to be positioned so that he can use it later to emphasis his townie position regardless of whether he rolls town or mafia in the game.
The fact that he continues in the same way once the game has started is why I pointed this out (and not that I think he knew prior to the game starting that he was going to roll mafia).
Minimal contributors at this stage, and they are either absent, or heavily lurking: Solohan Macheji TheRavensName
If you don't see any merit in my case against Nova_Terra (and by association, Lazermonkey and Crossfire99 - and please explain why, and what you think of my reads), then voting on one of the above is as good an alternative for a day 1 lynch vote in my opinion.
I think your case against Nova makes sense. I too got an early initial impression that he was a bit weird. What really stuck with me is obviously the same thing I pointed out in my earlier post, his statement of;
Okay, thank god, not mafia :D
I didn't actually read through the first couple of pages prior to the game starting so I missed the phrase you quoted about him being terrible town, as I signed up on Page 3.
I do like the fact that he tried to pressure vote some people into contributing, but that in itself is not a town nor mafia tell. Gathering more contributions at such an early stage of the game just simply helps set the game up and could be done by either side.
The content in his initial posts where laden with a decent amount of fluff.
In regards to your reads on Crossfire99 and Lazermonkey I also have them trending towards Mafia on my notes, but at this stage those notes are far from conclusive. Of the two I think Lazermonkey raises more red flags.
I will briefly summarise what I have noticed from him so far;
Opinions on Lazermonkey's Play
In his initial post his very first statement reads;
On April 14 2012 23:38 Lazermonkey wrote: Sup everyone! So I'm kinda noob at this atm (...)
So before contributing or anything else he immediately establishes the fact he is a 'noob'. Being that this is a Newbie Mafia game this would seem like a fairly easy assumption to make and apply to all the players. So why is there the need to state this?
I don't think this is really relevant to mention as a townie, and would be mentioned more by someone who is trying to set up a way out or an excuse for any decisions or actions made during the game. Which to me is something a mafia would want to do more so than a townie.
His next several posts all include quotes and statements from Nova_Terra, while this could possibly be due to his activity and the sheer volume of Nova's posts. On all three counts he simply agrees with the posts and adds a little fluff here and there to round out the posts, like encouraging people to post stating the current game situation etc.
On April 14 2012 23:55 Nova_Terra wrote: Yeah so thats pretty much what i said with more fluff.
If you are going to agree with someone agree with them and move onto something else instead of posting a 1 paragraph flufffest like the above post.
True, tho I added that I'd rather lynch someone in order to archive information than just some random lurker. And besides there really isn't much to discuss yet.
On April 15 2012 15:31 Lazermonkey wrote: Morning EU-budds!
People really need to start posting now, it's been almost 24 h since the day post came up, and we still only got ~2 pages of posts during that time.
era was very active last game, though more in terms of quantity than in terms of quality. Haven’t seen him post since the start of this game yet, though, so my first vote goes to him.
##Vote:era
I think it's a decent idea to start pressuring era now, however if he doesn't show up at all I guess he will be replaced anyway. Therefore we don't need to care to much about it as of now.
On April 15 2012 17:12 Lazermonkey wrote: I agree with you(Nova) on Solohan, but I think it will be hard de determ whether that is due to him being town and expressing himself the right way or if he is actuall scum.
I also think that it is time for Macheji to step up a bit more. He has posted 4 posts so far, but all of them have been very short and havn't added anything useful yet.
He states he is suspicious of Solohan50, who at the moment is lurking. But his early opinions seem to just line up quite nicely with Nova without really adding anything else of his own. Nova clearly states he finds the first two posts of Solohan50's scummy, I have tried to find these tells myself to no avail so far. So maybe Lazermonkey has picked up on these as well? Or is simply agreeing with Nova who appears to be the 'town leader'.
Conclusion Lazermonkey's activity has been good and he has contributed a decent amount and I get the impression that it is a bit more substance than fluff at the moment. The issues I have raised are only what have stood out for me.
Clearly this is not lynch worthy and i would not push a lynch with this level of substance to a case. But I am more trying to see if anyone else shares my concerns or what their thoughts on the matter are.
@Pure-SC2 in response to your case on Nova. We'll have to see what his suspicion of solohan is, but I'd still like Crossfire to answer the same question .. preferably before Nova. If crossfire has an argument to offer Nova will just have to find another one.
OMGUS reaction reaction to oneplus
..noted, yes that was bad.
It pains me to say this but Nova has outlasted his use to town already. He did good with the voting (although that was symbolic, not sure if it had any palpable effect) and he has shown us an anti-example of how a leader should not act. I doubt we can expect him to make substance-packed, easy to follow cases but I would love to be positively surprised.
As for oneplus, I felt like I should take him under my wing because English is evidently not his mother tongue. Nevertheless I expect him to try and make it easy for us to understand him, keep it simple. What I understood about his posts struck me as intelligent and insightful + Show Spoiler +
On April 16 2012 18:34 oneplus wrote: I am not the one who say this. You are the one who said you and lazer accused me? I said you guys sound like a team.
On April 16 2012 18:09 Nova_Terra wrote: Also thats OMGUS because both Lazer and I accused you as doing something scummy. Suddenly we're scummy in your opinion. Smart.
And yeah now you are protecting lazer. In what earth the most active player couldn't be scum? Well I could be wrong if you are town and the scum will be lurking around and clapping his hand to see 2 of us try to attack each others
but he needs to focus on facts and not get carried away by WIFOM.
He also provoked Nova into a passive OMGUS reaction, which he also noted right away, so that's the last of him being labeled as noob town.
Regarding Nova insisting on his ratio of being in the mafia faction as an attempt to look town, and your EBWOP post + Show Spoiler +
On April 16 2012 20:16 Pure-SC2 wrote: EBWOP: I missed off why I thought this was relevant, but the first point I made above regarding Nova_Terra's posts prior to the game start seem to be positioned so that he can use it later to emphasis his townie position regardless of whether he rolls town or mafia in the game.
The fact that he continues in the same way once the game has started is why I pointed this out (and not that I think he knew prior to the game starting that he was going to roll mafia).
Based on my filter review, the two most likely accomplices to Nova_Terra: Lazermonkey and Crossfire99. The case against these two isn't strong, but I would recommend reading through their filter and looking at the way they support Nova on Solohan50.
Also, if you look at the interaction between Nova and Lazer against oneplus, it is also very defensive and nature and shows them supporting each other once again. I think this adds to my suspicion of Lazer who, other than his blind support of Nova's stance against Solohan, has seemed like a good contributing townie.
I can't imagine the scumteam would be that obvious to spot, showing the same stance. I do have a couple of notes in my journal on Lazer though, which I'd like to divulge at this point, seeing that Daymor has commenced discussion on him. Excerpt from April 15 2012 11:00am CET - 12:00 CET entry.
------------------------- (...) I don't like Lazermonkey for posting like that at all (lack of argumentation, just says solohan might be scum or not and that we shall see. He's Swedish, also non-english, but I will not let this type of posting be the routine.
3 people voting to pressure someone to post something might be a little exaggerated but It also shows that BlueyD, Pure-SC2, Nova_Terra aren't likely to be THE scumteam. BlueyD gives a meta reason and the others sheep, will have to watch how far this statement goes when they either retract their vote or choose to stay on him.
What's with the 24 hours wining .. it hasn't been 24 hours. The game started faster than expected so there's plenty of time The Day ends in approximatly 57.5 hours. (...) ------------------------- End of excerpt
Excerpt from April 16 2012 April 16 23:20 - 0:10
------------------------ (...) Lazermonkey is acting weird. What is this?
If you truly are a townie you shouldn't be interested in defending yourself more than absolutly necesary.
Sounds like he is uncomfortable defending himself once a FoS is on him. Will be interesting to see if he builds this affirmation. Also will he be more tolerant towards others or is this a double standard.
staying to defensive will make you look scummy.
so he likes boxing people in, this is still a lurker post.
(...)
Now he's acting even weirder considering the context of the pressure on solohan. + Show Spoiler +
There is also a slight chance that the person who obtains votes will be a mafia, in which case some of his scum-bros might have to show their true colour in one or another way
He might be showing his true color now by trying to stall discussion on solo (something like Stalin defence).
@Solohan - I'm not sure wether He is just noob or scum. Obviously we are all very new to the game so that could be an explanation for his play. But he hasn't contributed at all yet, only talking about the very hypothetical no lynch and agreeing with that lynching a lurker. Both thoose subjects had already been said at that point, more than once even. This is obviously a very suspicious move. We really need to see his response.
Probably scum probing for towns vigilance. (...) ------------------------ End of excerpt
PS: It is natural to consider someone who posts a lot to be your leader. I have a general advice to all the players, don't do that. Being able to juggle with ideas in multiplayer is a more valid qualification than writing everything you can think of right away in order to satisfy your itchy fingers. + Show Spoiler +
If you feel like the latter kind of person you should leave this thread neat and go typerace instead. typeracer
Wow, that is some really nice analysis, Pure! Here are my random thoughts about it
Up untill this point I was quite sure that Nova wasn't scum, but now I'm starting to question it. An aspect that I think that you havn't brought up is his early game. The one thing that reallty is Pro-town about him is that he really tried his best to get the discussion going. He did some pressures and tried to get the lurkers to speak. He also was very clear about that he didn't like any fluff, although it is true he have been posting lots of posts that havn't really addded anything at all. This could be explained by the fact that we all pretty much agreed upon that lynching lurkers would be possible on day 1 and that he tried to get immune to lynches the very first day be being active. So with that in mind I think that his early game plans isn't very telling. It could've been done outof both perspectives. I'm writing as I am thinking, which is why the text above at first looks very fluffy ^^. Still think it is nice to know.
As for Solohan50, The one thing I thought was that the 2 very short posts he actually made were basically echoing what everybody had said a dozen times before him. For me, this looked like a nice way to put some pressure at him and make him contribute and post some more material, rather than actually saying that he was 100% scum. As for Nova intention tho, I have no idea.
The only thing that is problematic with your post is how late it is. I know this could be because of a thousand reasons but it does in fact make a difference. To me, most of thoose reasons could be broke down into;
1)You are a townie/blue and just havn't had the time to post. 2)You are scum and want to protect your scum-bro macheji, who I think got the most votes atm(although that seems quite unlikely to me as you set him up on your list of lurkers of people that you are fine with lynching). 3)You are scum, macheji is a townie/blue but you would rather kill Nova as you see him as a bigger threat.
I think 1 is the most likely, but all should be considered.
Atm I think the most interesting lynch would in fact be Nova. Not because he is confirmed scum in any way, but because of the possible information we could be given. If he flips town, we really need to think about Pure intention with his post.
I probably should have included this in my last post also. But another post from Nova that is bugging me is;
On April 16 2012 02:11 Nova_Terra wrote: What now? Why would i not swap off of a pressure vote when the idea was to get that person to post? are you trying to tell me i should do exactly what i did as scum last game and be like, MEH, He posted, but i want to lynch him anyway? That hardly makes sense. Also, Lynching a lurker provides benefits like being able to see who voted when, peoples stances, and more importantly it sets an expectation that people who lurk will die. as an incentive to post. There isnt positive reinforcement on this game. If you lurk, you die. if you're active, you still might die, but at least you'll be helpful to the town first.
First of all I have no idea as to who this post was aimed at, maybe Therapist? But to me this post gives me a bad vibe. It seems like quite an aggressive defense (in particular the first two lines), and the tone seems that of exasperation or aggression.
I don't think you mentioned the post in your case, but what kind of impression does that post leave you with?
@Lorant, I accedently missread the daypost and thought it would last 47,5h instead of 57,5h. I don't really think that is a good argument for me being mafia, more like an arguement for me not checking daypost good enough.
And I never really made any huge claims on solohan, was just saying that he looked kinda scummy the way he lurked and added nothing at all.
And I never really made any huge claims on solohan, was just saying that he looked kinda scummy the way he lurked and added nothing at all.
That is exactly the kind of behavior that we wish to condemn.
What kind of behavior? the way he lurks or the way I think it's suspicous he lurks?
You should only speak out against someone if you have gathered enough evidence to help town make an opinion about him. The fact that he lurked, repeated only what has been said is not enough to say he's scummy, and will not make a valid point in a supposed case against him. We are now checking to see if Nova and Crossfire have made the same mistake or if they truly have something worth mentioning.
With my suspicions already raised about some of Nova's posting. I think another vote and possible lynch on Nova would be more beneficial than a vote on Macheji.
We clearly have a large contingent of lurkers at the moment, but I feel comfortable enough lynching Nova as I think between Pure-SC2's case and my personal impressions I would be happy with the result.
##Unvote: Macheji ##Vote: Nova_Terra
Anyway 12:45am here, time for me to go to bed. Boss is out of the office for the week so should have the thread open for a decent portion of the day. Will check in on the thread every now and again.
On April 16 2012 19:58 Pure-SC2 wrote: Well well. There has been quite some activity since I started doing a complete filter review. It's interesting because it has reinforced the conclusions I came to on my own.
## Unvote
The case against Nova_Terra:
- Nova_Terra's overly emphasised townie position:
The case begins prior to the game even starting. Nova (who has been scum in previous games - I'd recommend a review of Newbie Mini Mafia VII ) is quick to distance himself and reinforce his town stance prior to the game even starting:
Im awful town, so i need to work at it during my last newbie game (aka this one)
He's telling us he's awful town, and that he will be working on it during this game. He is trying to reinforce his town position before the game has even started.
One the game starts, his first post includes this line:
This immediately made me suspicious, as I don't understand why someone who had received a town role would need to state this. The only motive I can determine for stating this is scummy.
Nova said the following in response to Daymor who questioned this:
I said that because ive been mafia the past two games and i didnt feel like dealing with the stress this time around.
Again you try to distance yourself from the fact you were mafia in previous games ("you didn't feel like dealing with the stress this time around") however you have no choice over that. You may or may not have been given a role as mafia or town. I find the wording you used here to be very strange and is not the response I would've expected to Daymor's question.
- Nova_Terra's posting without contributing:
On its own I wouldn't say this means anything, and it's something I posted about earlier. But in combination with a few other things it becomes more significant.
When you do a review of Nova_Terra's early filter, essentially he repeats the same stance he has on fluff posting, complains about lack of activity and votes/unvotes a few times. This is done over 14 posts, and makes him look like the most active person in the thread, but if you actually looks at what is included in all those posts, he is actually contributing very little. I find this to be mildly suspicious and it felt like he was trying to position himself as a town leader without actually contributing.
- Nova_Terra's baseless accusation of Solohan50:
I must admit I didn't look into this when it was initially posted, and it was only after a complete filter review that I really began questioning Nova's behaviour here.
Also I'm going to let Solohan50 find out what i find scummy about his own post and do something about it. If a vanilla townie looks at someones post and finds it scummy, theoretically another vanilla townie should be able to do the same. Im not gonna tell you how to defend yourself.
So if I read this correctly, Nova finds Solohan50s first post scummy, and that because he's a vanilla townie and finds it scummy, another vanilla townie should be able to do the same.
Right. I'm a vanilla townie, so let's look at Solohan50's first post for the smoking gun.
On April 15 2012 00:46 Solohan50 wrote: Yeah, lynching lurkers isn't a terrible idea (it's not spectacular either though), especially if you make it known ahead of time. That (should) inspire everyone to post at least a little bit, giving us more information on Day 1 and hopefully leading to better lynches. With any luck though, everyone will be active and we can avoid having to lynch a lurker. If the lurker that gets lynched Day 1 is Town, then we gain almost no information, because they haven't posted anything.
tl:dr Post, people!
My read on Solohan50's first post. He has stated his thoughts on lurker lynching (not a terrible idea, but doesn't really love it either). He likes the fact you can use it to put pressure on people to post day 1, which will hopefully lead to a better (which I read as more informed) lynch. He then goes on to say lynching a townie that hasn't posted anything provides almost no information.
Ok, so that's my read on his post. I've gone through it several times and don't feel like I'm missing anything here. It seems like a positive townie approach to me for a first post. What is it that Nova sees that I don't? What is his motivation for calling Solohan50 out based on this? I don't see a townie motivation for this, further increasing my suspicion.
EBWOP: Same with His second post which pretty much is in the middle of the discussion and just asks a question instead od adding to said discussion
Solohan50's second post asked a question on No Lynches. He also asked this question pre-game so doesn't look like it's something he decided on bringing up after he received his role PM. There has obviously been some confusion around no lynch since this game started (I felt like the rules were clear but I guess since it wasn't explicitly stated it has caused confusion), and based on that (and the subsequent discussions and clarification) I don't think his question is suspicious.
*** I will add in relation to this that Solohan50 hasn't contributed a lot since, but in terms of this case against Nova_Terra it doesn't apply, as I'm referring to Nova's on Solohan50's first posts. Solohan50's lurky behaviour should be looked at seperately.
Continuing on....
- Nova_Terra's very defensive responses to oneplus:
This has happened since I did my filter review, and I haven't had a chance to go through this in as much detail as I'd like, but I have work to be done. I may re-visit this later if I see anything more after a further review.
Nova claims an OMGUS reaction reaction to oneplus, which I don't really see. Oneplus has his suspicions of Nova based on his own read, and it would be good for him to elaborate more on this.
However the point I focused on was the way Nova reacted. The defensive tone of his responses definitely do not sound like town, and the only motivation I can see for him posting that way is scummy.
- Nova_Terra's possible accomplices:
Based on my filter review, the two most likely accomplices to Nova_Terra: Lazermonkey and Crossfire99. The case against these two isn't strong, but I would recommend reading through their filter and looking at the way they support Nova on Solohan50.
Also, if you look at the interaction between Nova and Lazer against oneplus, it is also very defensive and nature and shows them supporting each other once again. I think this adds to my suspicion of Lazer who, other than his blind support of Nova's stance against Solohan, has seemed like a good contributing townie.
- Final thoughts on Nova_Terra:
After going through all this, and reviewing Nova's filter looking at him posting as a townie, and posting as scum, the only motivation I can see for his approach thus far (on areas where he has contributed) is scum. This makes me as confident as I can be that he is a good target to vote on for day 1.
## Vote: Nova_Terra
Final thoughts on oneplus - I agree on him being a bad townie, and he has certainly been targeted by Nova_Terra, which seems to be a good motivation for scum to target him and in a sense, further backs up my suspicions on Nova.
So what do you all think? If you don't agree, where do you think my reasoning is wrong? How do you read Nova_Terra based on your own review of his behaviour and filter?
Ok so First point regarding Daymors thingy Well of course i'll distance myself from being mafia last two times, as i am town this time. The fact that i dont want to be mafia doesnt have anything to do with what role i would get, well of course. The fact that i am happy about not being mafia doesnt have much to do with being scum. it says nothing actually. I dont see why the fact that you would have thought different wording would be used makes me more scummy. Also how can you say anything about before the game in your case.... Thats just illogical.
Second, I have never claimed to be a town leader this game nor will I. If you choose to look at me as such and setting your cases on the fact that i'm trying to be a town leader, thats your decision. I am one of the most active people in the game, even though i havent contributed excessively, but i have contributed way more than many people in this game.
It is completely valid to wait to see what he thinks about his first post instead of just telling him whats bad about it so he can say Oh, sorry, wont do it again. I still want to see his thoughts before explaining my position on him. My point about the second post is that he was here, and instead of adding to the discussion he just asks a question (that he had already asked in beginning).
Oneplus posted no real reason to suspect me that was good. Also, this was certainly OMGUS as he accuses two people who had noted that some of the play he had made was scummy as opposed to just lurking. Its "defensive" because his basis for the case is terrible.
Also, sick connection case. Nothing quite like suspecting people because they share a similar view in early game. Well in that case why arent all of the people who agree that no-lynch is beneficial (even though we cant now) because they're all mafia?
Also, When did this go from lynching Lurkers to voting for people who actually contribute and provoke discussion? because you cant disagree that voting for someone who is creating discussion is a terrible idea with the state of the current town.
On April 16 2012 02:11 Nova_Terra wrote: What now? Why would i not swap off of a pressure vote when the idea was to get that person to post? are you trying to tell me i should do exactly what i did as scum last game and be like, MEH, He posted, but i want to lynch him anyway? That hardly makes sense. Also, Lynching a lurker provides benefits like being able to see who voted when, peoples stances, and more importantly it sets an expectation that people who lurk will die. as an incentive to post. There isnt positive reinforcement on this game. If you lurk, you die. if you're active, you still might die, but at least you'll be helpful to the town first.
First of all I have no idea as to who this post was aimed at, maybe Therapist? But to me this post gives me a bad vibe. It seems like quite an aggressive defense (in particular the first two lines), and the tone seems that of exasperation or aggression.
I don't think you mentioned the post in your case, but what kind of impression does that post leave you with?
Thanks for highlighting this Daymor, I did read the post when I did my filter review, but as I wasn't reading it "in-line" with the thread, I didn't look at the context, just the tone. And the tone is very defensive.
After a review, I believe this post was in response to TheRavensName, who pointed out that he thought Nova was rather lynch happy - which at that point was 100% true as he was "pressure" voting without actually adding anything himself (part of the 14 initial posts he made which I commented on in my initial case against Nova).
His response to this doesn't calmly state the nature of his pressure voting, but is a very defensive post and again he relates it back to the fact that he was scum in a previous game and how he's playing it different this time.
Pure and Daymore has bring out what I am trying to say but I didnt give enough evidence due to my english.
Lorant is right about english is not my mother tongue so I try to explain everything in a simple way and hope everyone can understand it.
I feel that lazer vote on nova is very questionable, the way you change your vote is too sudden. But this is a good move, if you both are scum after you lynch your scummate, you will earn 100% trust from the town.
Now everyone has started to review post and analyzise more after I make my view on Nova, when I am the only one against him he sound like everything i said doesn't make sense at all but now when there is more and more people agasint him, he started to apologize and try to agree with each others. I would like to explain in this way "he is someone in the platinum league but try to act like he is a grandmaster but now he retract and saying actually he is a platinum"
An interesting post Nova. I've taken some time to go through it and see how it relates to my case against you.
The comments I made about your posts before the game started were expanded on in my EBWOP. They are applicable because you were already trying to distance yourself from your previous mafia roles, which is fine. But, then you continued using that same approach once the game started which immediately rang scummy to me.
You haven't claimed to be a town leader, but from the outset of the day you placed yourself as the post monitor, telling us who was posting fluff, and how hard you were going to be on them, re-iterating the lack of activity (without contributing). That comes across to me as someone who is trying a little too hard to appear active. You already have my thoughts on that.
Regarding your comment towards oneplus:
Oneplus posted no real reason to suspect me that was good.
That sounds a lot like you in regards to your suspicious of Solohan50, don't you think? We're still waiting for this insightful explanation as to why his first post was scummy.
I've re-read oneplus's filter and agree with the assessment made by Lorant, that oneplus obviously doesn't speak english natively and as such his posts take a bit more reading. Even so, I can see that he does provide some reasoning as to why he suspects you: - Notes that Lazer and Nova are very firm to lynch someone - Picks up on the fact that Nova constantly refers to mafia role in previous games - Highlights Novas over reactive defensive posting to his suspicions - Picks up on the association between Nova and Lazer that I noticed also.
* This is significantly more reasoning than you've given for your suspicions against Solohan50.
Also, sick connection case. Nothing quite like suspecting people because they share a similar view in early game.
It's not just a similar view, Lazer (and to a lesser extent Crossfire) supported you in your suspicions of Solohan50 without one shred of reasoning, just like you. Rather than offer any reasoning as to why you think there is no association between you, or even offering your reasoning for suspicions on Solohan, you take a further defensive stance without offering anything.
At this stage, I don't have a scum read on Crossfire, only noted the association. I'll be looking at Lazer more closely as he has several things in his filter now that tend towards scum.
Also, When did this go from lynching Lurkers to voting for people who actually contribute and provoke discussion? because you cant disagree that voting for someone who is creating discussion is a terrible idea with the state of the current town.
For me, this occurred when I was able to build a case I had a reasonably high level of confidence in. Which is quite a sensible approach if you think about it.
And voting for someone who is suspicious (for several reasons) is a great idea if you have that read on day 1.
Using the fact that you've created discussion as a reason not to lynch you is not a defence.
Also i love how everyone is jumping on the sick bandwagon. really good play
This just sounds anti-town to me.
I reviewed everyone's filter, and when I looked at my notes afterwards, I had you as the most suspicious based on the reasons already stated. I noticed that in the time I'd put that together, Oneplus and Daymor has posted a similar read.
On April 17 2012 00:07 Pure-SC2 wrote: An interesting post Nova. I've taken some time to go through it and see how it relates to my case against you.
The comments I made about your posts before the game started were expanded on in my EBWOP. They are applicable because you were already trying to distance yourself from your previous mafia roles, which is fine. But, then you continued using that same approach once the game started which immediately rang scummy to me.
You haven't claimed to be a town leader, but from the outset of the day you placed yourself as the post monitor, telling us who was posting fluff, and how hard you were going to be on them, re-iterating the lack of activity (without contributing). That comes across to me as someone who is trying a little too hard to appear active. You already have my thoughts on that.
Oneplus posted no real reason to suspect me that was good.
That sounds a lot like you in regards to your suspicious of Solohan50, don't you think? We're still waiting for this insightful explanation as to why his first post was scummy.
I've re-read oneplus's filter and agree with the assessment made by Lorant, that oneplus obviously doesn't speak english natively and as such his posts take a bit more reading. Even so, I can see that he does provide some reasoning as to why he suspects you: - Notes that Lazer and Nova are very firm to lynch someone - Picks up on the fact that Nova constantly refers to mafia role in previous games - Highlights Novas over reactive defensive posting to his suspicions - Picks up on the association between Nova and Lazer that I noticed also.
* This is significantly more reasoning than you've given for your suspicions against Solohan50.
Also, sick connection case. Nothing quite like suspecting people because they share a similar view in early game.
It's not just a similar view, Lazer (and to a lesser extent Crossfire) supported you in your suspicions of Solohan50 without one shred of reasoning, just like you. Rather than offer any reasoning as to why you think there is no association between you, or even offering your reasoning for suspicions on Solohan, you take a further defensive stance without offering anything.
At this stage, I don't have a scum read on Crossfire, only noted the association. I'll be looking at Lazer more closely as he has several things in his filter now that tend towards scum.
Also, When did this go from lynching Lurkers to voting for people who actually contribute and provoke discussion? because you cant disagree that voting for someone who is creating discussion is a terrible idea with the state of the current town.
For me, this occurred when I was able to build a case I had a reasonably high level of confidence in. Which is quite a sensible approach if you think about it.
And voting for someone who is suspicious (for several reasons) is a great idea if you have that read on day 1.
Using the fact that you've created discussion as a reason not to lynch you is not a defence.
Also i love how everyone is jumping on the sick bandwagon. really good play
This just sounds anti-town to me.
I reviewed everyone's filter, and when I looked at my notes afterwards, I had you as the most suspicious based on the reasons already stated. I noticed that in the time I'd put that together, Oneplus and Daymor has posted a similar read.
Okay, so yes, i know that oneplus probably not native english speaker. I have explained the think about wanting to lynch someone multiple times now. He highlights my defensive posting? I called OMGUS on him because he OMGUS'ed. Suddenly i have a defensive reaction. Hit too close to home, did i? Call out a defensive reaction because i truthfully point something out. Also the association between me and Lazer is a result of that OMGUS in his eyes, as well as the fact that we agreed with eachother. Do you know how often people reference other mafia members on day 1 in a newbie game? not often. Therefore it is WIFOM to speculate on a connection case right now, especially in this situation. However, it may be true that Lazer and Crossfire jumped on a potentially weak player in Solohan, but that is unrelated to me except for the fact that i brought up solohan to begin with. The fact that i have provoked discussion is a perfect way to defend myself on day 1, when this many players have said that they want a lurker lynch AND when its completely truthful. And yeah, im being sarcastic and cynical. Pretty much because im mad and i find a lot of this bandwagoning annoying. And as he isnt posting, i'll be voting Solohan50. I never said that i think he is scum for sure or anything, just that the posts were scummy. However, as he is not responding, i will be going for him.
Also the fact that Pure brought up a long analysis like this kinda makes me think that he isnt scum. but thats just a partial read. leaning town for him slightly.
The reason why I think solo is a little suspicious is because he hasn't said much, but with those few words he has said, he has tacitly supported a no lynch by saying + Show Spoiler +
My analysis is based on the Mafia guide that I've been reading which says that lynching Town members generally doesn't give much information. This would be doubly true if we lynch a lurker who hasn't said much, because there's no information about that person. The whole point of the post was to encourage people to post more, so we can avoid having to lynch a lurker. In my eyes, unless we get lucky and the lurker is Mafia, we benefit very little and we're down one more player.
. I disagree with his argument (as well as some others in this thread), hence my two posts saying why we should lynch day 1. If you believe that I jumped to conclusions about him, I disagree. All I did was say that I was only slightly suspicious, which I is why I didn't vote for him.
Now I am curious about you, though. Why vote for me when it seems that you thought lazer or nova was more suspicious? You also say that your entire argument is based on a gut feeling. + Show Spoiler +
On April 16 2012 17:33 Lorant wrote: This suspicion on Crossfire is mainly coming from my gut
I haven't played this game before, but I still know what bad arguments look like. All you did was try to fit my words into your preconceived notion that I am scum. Looking at your post you said that my no lynch talk and my very polite GL HF, were both essentially null, so that leaves your suspicions of me completely resting on that fact that I am a little suspicious of solo. I have explained that above, so I would like to hear your response to my question.
On April 15 2012 00:46 Solohan50 wrote: Yeah, lynching lurkers isn't a terrible idea (it's not spectacular either though), especially if you make it known ahead of time. That (should) inspire everyone to post at least a little bit, giving us more information on Day 1 and hopefully leading to better lynches. With any luck though, everyone will be active and we can avoid having to lynch a lurker. If the lurker that gets lynched Day 1 is Town, then we gain almost no information, because they haven't posted anything.
tl:dr Post, people!
As i am voting for him anyway and theres no reason not to as i am voting for him, heres why i found his 1st post suspicious. Okay, so first, Solohan50 does not present an opinion that is clear and to the point. you cant even tell really if he does support lynching lurkers because of it. The main think in this post is the presence of all the parts i highlighted red. Note how he continuously adds things to make his post seem agreeable and something he can fall back on later. It seems as if he is trying to play so that he cant be suspected for his opinions because he notes how it also isnt good. Trying to be Mister Agreeable is scummy. Also, this post is pretty much recycled opinions from other people.
On April 16 2012 15:35 Lazermonkey wrote: Morning everyone!
So I wake up, read the thread and tbh I'm quite dissapointed in the progress made during the night. We are getting nowhere atm. We really need to stop discuss the possibility of no lynches.
I would also like to add, that although the discussion regarding lynch v no lynch may not mean anything if indeed you cannot vote for a no lynch. It does however provide the opportunity for people to comment and add their perspective as to what they feel about the policy. This provides us with information which we can analyse nd to help show the motivation and logic behind their arguements. So it is far from fruitless.
I agree with you, but this would only occur if everyone had posted really good opinions and cases. We aren't even close to that point right now. The following effects of a no lynch atm would probebly be something in line with:
1. Noone is lynched 2. Mafia most likely get a kill since there is such a small chance that the roleblocker/jailer would hit the right target due to little information. 3. The killed target townie and is a lurker/person who only posted that no lynch is a good opinion. 4. No info is have been archived.
On April 16 2012 11:16 oneplus wrote: Sorry guys i was busy, finally i am able to catch up the thread. Well I am the first one to come out with the no lynch idea, let me explain abit about this. It would be a bit suspicious about me to come out with this but no lynch it's not no pressure for the scums we could see some potential scums coming out and want to lynch some townie in day 1 or he might be happy for no lynch in day 1 and try to go for a no lynch since they will be able to kill at night. From here we might get some information hence no lynch doesn't mean no information at all and it is bad.
##VOTE : No lynch
I'm not sure if noob or scum, but This has been said over 9000 times in this thread. Please post something new...
Also im working on a brief post analysis on Lazer but i have to note
small chance that the roleblocker/jailer would hit the right target
Scum slip scum slip, says that we have a Roleblocker! Not a town role everybody!
On April 16 2012 21:19 Lazermonkey wrote: Wow, that is some really nice analysis, Pure! Here are my random thoughts about it
Up untill this point I was quite sure that Nova wasn't scum, but now I'm starting to question it. An aspect that I think that you havn't brought up is his early game. The one thing that reallty is Pro-town about him is that he really tried his best to get the discussion going. He did some pressures and tried to get the lurkers to speak. He also was very clear about that he didn't like any fluff, although it is true he have been posting lots of posts that havn't really addded anything at all. This could be explained by the fact that we all pretty much agreed upon that lynching lurkers would be possible on day 1 and that he tried to get immune to lynches the very first day be being active. So with that in mind I think that his early game plans isn't very telling. It could've been done outof both perspectives. I'm writing as I am thinking, which is why the text above at first looks very fluffy ^^. Still think it is nice to know.
As for Solohan50, The one thing I thought was that the 2 very short posts he actually made were basically echoing what everybody had said a dozen times before him. For me, this looked like a nice way to put some pressure at him and make him contribute and post some more material, rather than actually saying that he was 100% scum. As for Nova intention tho, I have no idea.
The only thing that is problematic with your post is how late it is. I know this could be because of a thousand reasons but it does in fact make a difference. To me, most of thoose reasons could be broke down into;
1)You are a townie/blue and just havn't had the time to post. 2)You are scum and want to protect your scum-bro macheji, who I think got the most votes atm(although that seems quite unlikely to me as you set him up on your list of lurkers of people that you are fine with lynching). 3)You are scum, macheji is a townie/blue but you would rather kill Nova as you see him as a bigger threat.
I think 1 is the most likely, but all should be considered.
Atm I think the most interesting lynch would in fact be Nova. Not because he is confirmed scum in any way, but because of the possible information we could be given. If he flips town, we really need to think about Pure intention with his post.
## Unvote ## Vote Nova_Terra
Seeing as this is an important post, i want to note a couple things i do not like about it. You note a couple things in this post about my play that seem pro town, and you seem to want to go for an information lynch. You do not vote for an active thought provoking player for information. you vote an active thought provoking player if you think they are scum. And that doesnt seem so much the case here as you are defending some things i do. With the current activity, if you mislynch me you lose a lot more than if you mislynch some lurker. Wouldnt it be interesting if you KNEW i was townie, then made remarks slightly defending me to distance yourself from this lynch, still voted for the easy target without adding anything bad against him, Saw that me and him were being connected and then voted because he knew it would make him seem more town when i flipped, and then said that we would have to look into Pure more when i flip town? Also, as a townie you dont suggest much about blues. You shouldnt. This looks almost like Blue Fishing, which is scummy.
sorry, instead of "me and him were being connected and then voted because he knew that it would make him seem" i mean Me and you were being connected and then voted because you knew it would make you seem. brainfart there
Sheesh, you Euros blew up this thread while I was asleep. :-O
After looking through some filters, we definitely have a fair amount of lurkers floating around. Unfortunately, it's hard to tell if they're just busy people or if they're lurking in a scummy way. So far, the list appears to be:
Crossfire - 3 posts after the game has started, and all regarding Day 1 lynches. Hasn't contributed anything else though. He did post that he was unsure of how you lynch a person on Day 1 at the beginning of the game. His last two posts, however, had a much more confident tone about who and why we should lynch on Day 1. Is this scum that's playing coy, or did he just read up on the subject? Since it's a newbie game, I'm inclined to give him a pass on the change of tone (for now), and assume that he went out and read a Mafia guide or something.
Macheji - Hasn't posted in 2 days. Likely getting modkilled. Not much else to say since he hasn't posted anything.
BlueyD - Has 3 posts since the game started. Tacitly supports Nova based on information from previous games. Gets a little caught up on the No Lynch debate, but provides more analysis than most have.
TheRavensName - A handful of one-liner posts and a safe vote for the lurker who's likely to get modkilled (though to be fair, the modkill wasn't on the table until recently).
Oneplus - He's lurked to a lesser extent. He's come out of hiding in the last day and started becoming more active. Since Mecheji had more votes than oneplus did at the time oneplus reappeared, I'm inclined to say that the lurking wasn't a scumslip. If Oneplus had more votes than Mecheji at the time Oneplus returned, I would be more inclined to say that he started posting due to pressure, but that's not the case.
Therapist - Has only really posted about the No Lynch and hasn't posted since. I'd like to see him post more so I can get more of a feel on him. The confusion about the No Lynch is understandable, but it's hard to get a read when that's all he's posted about.
-----------------------------------
And then there's Nova. He decried spam and fluff posts at the beginning of the game, but a good portion of his posts have been one liners, such as:
On April 16 2012 19:35 Nova_Terra wrote: LOL whaaaat? and what is a FourFace doing in this thread o.o
On April 16 2012 19:39 Nova_Terra wrote: FourFace, what N word?! Newbie? Did I? damn. just meant bad. apologies
On April 16 2012 21:47 Nova_Terra wrote: Also i love how everyone is jumping on the sick bandwagon. really good play
He's also been overly aggressive and defensive, moreso than a Townie should be, even going so far as to say:
On April 16 2012 18:09 Nova_Terra wrote: ROFL. Thats fine, dig your own grave.
I can't tell if that's a veiled threat or if Nova is just an asshole (or both?).
On top of that, his whole argument against me was an argument reminiscient of an old, married couple. I ask what I did wrong, and he responds with "You know what you did wrong!". Hyperbole aside, even after I replied, saying that I didn't know what he found wrong with my post, he continued with his line that he wanted to see what I said first. This seems like he was just trying to waste time with his accusation while not having to bother backing it up. He only started substantiating his argument against me once he had multiple votes on him, some of which stemmed from his accusations of me. This seems like he's being overly defensive and trying to save his own skin once his accusation got him in hot water. Because of this, I'm going to vote for Nova.
No, I posted a logical reason for posting my analysis of that when i did. And i find it funny that you post as soon as i make my vote and note why that post of yours was scummy.
And no, i didnt say that you knew what you did wrong. I said i wanted you to look at your own post which you totally failed to do, and find your own thoughts on it.
I like the huge posts that people are already making in a real attempt at analysis day one. That's pretty awesome, but at the same time, there's no particular reason to bandwagon Nova Terra above others. He's been generating a lot of activity and even inspiring all of these huge posts so far. Without his posting, would there be so much data already in the game? It might be a problem in later days if he clutters the thread, but something needs to be done to break the ice day one and get things going.
Thank you therapist. I find it interesting that most of the bandwagoners disappeared after i defended myself. Still trying to vote me while not making themselves seem susp, i'd guess.
I apologize to my inactivity. But if you look at where I am from, you are all on when I am sleeping or at school sense I am from the states. I just literally got the opportunity to check and had been checking for updates until I went to sleep last night.
That being said, based on what I've been reading, I think both Nova and Soho are both very suspicious... but I feel as though Nova is more contributing and I do agree with his opinion on that first post. Truthfully I also find Therapist as another suspicious entity. To be honest I have no issue with SC2, nor do I have enough of a real read on others at the moment to kill anyone besides Macheji for lurking. We can judge who to lynch after mafia makes a hit. That tends to thin things out a bit.
On oneplus: I’m still a bit suspicious. First post was bad and I expected an idiot, but then oneplus shows himself capable of at least some analysis afterwards – did he get help? I still don’t get why Nova and Lazer insisting on a lynch is scummy at all - I note that I did it as well and I’m not being targeted, so it looked a bit like a case of tunnel vision to me - and after that he mostly falls back on a “what the other guys said is what I was thinking but I couldn’t express it (not actual quote)” line for the rest of his case, and we don’t know if that’s true.
Might be his poor English preventing him from explaining by himself earlier, but I would have liked him to try. Right now we don’t know what he was really thinking when he started pushing. The second language excuse could be entirely true, or it could mostly be convenient.
Still he’s active and not particularly scummy, so I’ll take my vote off of him. ##Unvote
---
On Nova_Terra : To me he looks like a guy who’s not worrying at all about his own safety, which is more of a town element than a scum element.
- I don’t think we can read anything from “Okay, thank god, not mafia :D”. Guy has been scum 2/3 times. Unnecessary but not inconsistent with being town.
- Calling Solo scummy with no explanation: Sounds more like a careless townie move than a scum move to me. Scum are paranoid about getting caught and make cases carefully. I think it was stupid to expect Solo to accuse himself and I also think Nova’s case was weak, but it reads more like bad town than scum to me.
- Voting behavior: Spammy, but not scummy. His meta can be described as “hyperactive” as both scum and town so he really doesn’t need that voting stuff to help him look active. Done with no consideration of the fact that this might make him suspect.
Nova knows how to not be a target (see both games as scum where he lasted to the end), so why isn’t he doing it this time? It could simply be that he’s scum and he’s failing really, really hard this time… or it could be that he’s town and scumhunting, not surviving, is his #1 priority. Not convinced by the case on him.
---
##Vote: TheRavensName
Lurker lynch, in the absence of a really good case. Macheji is less active but he doesn’t seem to be here at all... He might be modkilled/replaced. By contrast, TheRavensName has showed up at different times of the day, but only has a bunch of short posts with zero analysis to show for it.
@Solohan You are correct that I read up a little after asking my pregame question. Below is a quote from greymist in Newbie Mini Mafia. The bolded and italicized part is what caught my attention. This is why I came out hard against no lynches.
On November 13 2011 15:56 GreYMisT wrote: GreYMisT’s Remarks First off, GJ scumteam with your flawless victory! That being said, there were definatly stuff that could be improved on that I noticed from my perspective. Im not going to look at what town could have done to find you guys, but rather how you guys functioned as a team.
The Good: Obviously you won the game without losing a single mafia member. So that’s a plus. Ciryandor also managed to become “confirmed town” pretty much based on his activity level and the length of his posts. IMABUNNEH was also on some peoples town list, and despite everyone thinking near the end of the game that he and xsksc were scum, they somehow managed to avoid a lynch. Overall there was pretty good communitcation in the QT, and everyone was able to agree on a general plan. Mafia was also able to force a no lynch day 1, which is pretty kickass. Also, after night one you forced a LOT of discussion regarding the death of risk, which creates so much WIFOM (ie good for mafia).
In response to everyone voting for nova, I am not sure if he is mafia. I know that he spammed a lot in the beginning, and it made him suspicious, but I don't think the mafia would be that obvious. He has been the most active in the thread even if he hasn't done it in the best way possible. He has more than 3 pages of posts in his filter, while everyone else has less than 1 (Lorant might be the exception if you include his posts as fourface, but i'm not sure). Even if he hadn't had about 1 page of spam posts in the beginning, his amount of activity would instantly cause everyone to look at his case closely because he has the most information available to make a judgment about him. Everything about this nova lynch seems like a bandwagon.
As for my own thoughts on who to lynch; honestly, I don't know who to vote for because as solohan stated in his thoughts on me, I asked what we are supposed to base our day 1 lynch on during the pregame, and I am still not confident in determining who is scum just from day 1 chat.
On April 17 2012 02:41 BlueyD wrote: Oh hey, of course TheRavensName posts 2 minutes before I call him inactive and I don't see it in time. XD
I'll keep the vote on you for now, though. You posted opinions but not justifications.
Its my first game. I apologize. I play mostly the custum map on SC2... rounds last a minute and a half, evidence is not as in depth so I do not know how to express what I feel as well. Give me a little bit of time. I do respect your opinion on that matter however, tips would be helpful.
Seeing as how Macheji will probably be mod killed... I will revoke my vote. Personally I am still pretty against the two or three people who stuck together at the start to propose the no lynch day one policy, seeing as how that always strikes me as scummy/mob. Of those that were proposing, I really think Therapist is the least productive as at least crusading against Nova is a action that probably should have been done with how much he is posting he seems like he is trying to avoid conflicts too much in my opinion. I get the feeling he would vote no lynch more then once if it was an option, at least for the first two days.
So much to say atm. I will start of with the "teaming between me and Nova". This seems to be a hot issue for some. First of, yes I do quote him in my second and third post but if you actually take the time to my response I do in both cases add something new to the table or disagree with him. About the Solohan50 post, I thought it was quite clear that both of his first posts weren't really informative at all. Thus I fealt I didn't need to explain why I was suspicous of him. As for that both of us had a FoS against oneplus, I wasn't even pushing the lynch against him. I even said that I only thought he was a bad townie.
I also have some extra stuff to say about oneplus. I may have been abit harsh on him at first, which I'm sorry about. However I still think his play is the most strange out of all players in this game. First we have two people, Pure and BlueyD, putting up some pressure votes on him. oneplus seems to be absolutly cool about this. When me and Nova both then says that nolynches are bad(fact which seems to be backed up by Greymist, so it at least wasn't taken out of the blue) he gets super mad and start to accusing us both of us with ZERO arguments but that we both pointed a FoS against him. Then he says:
On April 16 2012 18:17 oneplus wrote:Your defending don't make sense at all. Now you are trying to say I am a bad town as I feel suspicious on you =p
When I in fact never even claimed him to be a scum. It then becomes clear that he have already decided that both me and Nova are 100% scum no matter what we say.
On April 16 2012 19:35 oneplus wrote: I got my point of view you cant shut my mouth up and force everyone to believe in you just because you are active?
On April 16 2012 23:32 oneplus wrote: But this is a good move, if you both are scum after you lynch your scummate, you will earn 100% trust from the town.
Basically saying that no matter what, he will still think both of us is scum. And still there are no arguments other that we said that we was accusing him of being mafia(which wasn't even true in my case). If that should be considered an argument that is. He then says:
On April 16 2012 23:32 oneplus wrote:Pure and Daymore has bring out what I am trying to say but I didnt give enough evidence due to my english.
Which is just flat out wrong. Yes Pure and Daymore posted a case against Nova, but they actually used some real arguments instead of saying that me and Nova is scum because we were suspicous of oneplus. About the english, I can understand you to 100% if you say you have a hard time expressing yourself. My english isn't exactly top notch, but who cares? People will in most cases understand you even if do some typos or failgrammar. I think your english is fine. Not one single time have I not understood what you were trying to say in your posts. So please don't blame grammar.
Not only do I think that he is strange but I also think that peoples views on him are quite strange. This for example:
On April 16 2012 19:21 FourFace wrote: If Nova is our leader then I would like to propose a mutiny to Pure-SC2, TheRavensName and Daymor and establish the council of 4 as our new form of leadership organization with BlueyD as a respected outside consultant Nova and Lazermonkey will be treated as outcasts for discouraging oneplus from posting and being generally to harsh on him by calling him the N word.
We never discouraged him from posting, I have no idea why he says the. Not sure if it was his intent or not but He effectivly killed the oneplus discussion which could be explained by that they scumbros. He adds later on:
As for oneplus, I felt like I should take him under my wing because English is evidently not his mother tongue. Nevertheless I expect him to try and make it easy for us to understand him, keep it simple. What I understood about his posts struck me as intelligent and insightful + Show Spoiler +
On April 16 2012 18:34 oneplus wrote: I am not the one who say this. You are the one who said you and lazer accused me? I said you guys sound like a team.
On April 16 2012 18:09 Nova_Terra wrote: Also thats OMGUS because both Lazer and I accused you as doing something scummy. Suddenly we're scummy in your opinion. Smart.
And yeah now you are protecting lazer. In what earth the most active player couldn't be scum? Well I could be wrong if you are town and the scum will be lurking around and clapping his hand to see 2 of us try to attack each others
but he needs to focus on facts and not get carried away by WIFOM.
Which to me doesn't make any sence. He is basically protecting oneplus for no other reason that english isn't his mother tounge.
Conclusion! I'm still not sure whether oneplus is just bad or scum. but imo both him and durant is acting really strange. So lynching oneplus would in one way or another give some info about Durant.
Nova's made two comments regarding Solohan's second post.
EBWOP: Same with His second post which pretty much is in the middle of the discussion and just asks a question instead od adding to said discussion
My point about the second post is that he was here, and instead of adding to the discussion he just asks a question (that he had already asked in beginning).
Solohan's second post:
Are No Lynches even allowed in this game? If they're not, it's a bit of a moot point.
- This was in direct response to Crossfire99's post before his, which was talking about no lynches on day 1. His post does add to what was being discussed at that very moment. It doesn't seem scummy in the slightest.
@Nova_Terra - I've reviewed your analysis of Solohan50's first post. I don't understand your reasoning, it's his first post, he's stating his opinion, why is having an opinion that someone else has had bad? He seems to get across quite clearly to me what he thinks, and I provided my interpretation of that in my original case against you.
@BlueyD - I notice in your analysis of my case against Nova you didn't mention his aggresively defensive stance, which has been used against three people at least so far. This is not generally considered townie behaviour and was a key part of what led me to raising a case against Nova. When you add all the elements together, I asked myself what the motivation for his posts were.
Based on my review, and subsequent case, if Nova is town, he is a terrible townie (3 people finding suspicious behaviour for different reasons in the space of a day).
I believe he's scum, and unless anything more comes to light will keep my vote on him.
This still doesnt explain the vote switch. Also please go over my analysis of a couple of your posts. thats to lazermonkey btw. Seeing as its less than 2 hours before deadline, everyone should be here and ready.
My point about the second post is that he was here, and instead of adding to the discussion he just asks a question (that he had already asked in beginning).
Are No Lynches even allowed in this game? If they're not, it's a bit of a moot point.
- This was in direct response to Crossfire99's post before his, which was talking about no lynches on day 1. His post does add to what was being discussed at that very moment. It doesn't seem scummy in the slightest.
@Nova_Terra - I've reviewed your analysis of Solohan50's first post. I don't understand your reasoning, it's his first post, he's stating his opinion, why is having an opinion that someone else has had bad? He seems to get across quite clearly to me what he thinks, and I provided my interpretation of that in my original case against you.
@BlueyD - I notice in your analysis of my case against Nova you didn't mention his aggresively defensive stance, which has been used against three people at least so far. This is not generally considered townie behaviour and was a key part of what led me to raising a case against Nova. When you add all the elements together, I asked myself what the motivation for his posts were.
Based on my review, and subsequent case, if Nova is town, he is a terrible townie (3 people finding suspicious behaviour for different reasons in the space of a day).
I believe he's scum, and unless anything more comes to light will keep my vote on him.
Asking a question that was asked before the game started is not adding to a discussion. Its not having an opinion that someone else had... its restating exactly what everyone else said regarding that, he could have just said I want to lynch lurkers and be done. instead of rephrasing stuff. And then theres the scummy pleasing everyone thing etc, clarifying everything preemptively whereas you should just say something and stick to it. i think i pointed that out just fine.
On April 17 2012 01:17 Solohan50 wrote: Sheesh, you Euros blew up this thread while I was asleep. :-O
After looking through some filters, we definitely have a fair amount of lurkers floating around. Unfortunately, it's hard to tell if they're just busy people or if they're lurking in a scummy way. So far, the list appears to be:
Crossfire - 3 posts after the game has started, and all regarding Day 1 lynches. Hasn't contributed anything else though. He did post that he was unsure of how you lynch a person on Day 1 at the beginning of the game. His last two posts, however, had a much more confident tone about who and why we should lynch on Day 1. Is this scum that's playing coy, or did he just read up on the subject? Since it's a newbie game, I'm inclined to give him a pass on the change of tone (for now), and assume that he went out and read a Mafia guide or something.
Macheji - Hasn't posted in 2 days. Likely getting modkilled. Not much else to say since he hasn't posted anything.
BlueyD - Has 3 posts since the game started. Tacitly supports Nova based on information from previous games. Gets a little caught up on the No Lynch debate, but provides more analysis than most have.
TheRavensName - A handful of one-liner posts and a safe vote for the lurker who's likely to get modkilled (though to be fair, the modkill wasn't on the table until recently).
Oneplus - He's lurked to a lesser extent. He's come out of hiding in the last day and started becoming more active. Since Mecheji had more votes than oneplus did at the time oneplus reappeared, I'm inclined to say that the lurking wasn't a scumslip. If Oneplus had more votes than Mecheji at the time Oneplus returned, I would be more inclined to say that he started posting due to pressure, but that's not the case.
Therapist - Has only really posted about the No Lynch and hasn't posted since. I'd like to see him post more so I can get more of a feel on him. The confusion about the No Lynch is understandable, but it's hard to get a read when that's all he's posted about.
-----------------------------------
And then there's Nova. He decried spam and fluff posts at the beginning of the game, but a good portion of his posts have been one liners, such as:
On April 16 2012 18:09 Nova_Terra wrote: ROFL. Thats fine, dig your own grave.
I can't tell if that's a veiled threat or if Nova is just an asshole (or both?).
On top of that, his whole argument against me was an argument reminiscient of an old, married couple. I ask what I did wrong, and he responds with "You know what you did wrong!". Hyperbole aside, even after I replied, saying that I didn't know what he found wrong with my post, he continued with his line that he wanted to see what I said first. This seems like he was just trying to waste time with his accusation while not having to bother backing it up. He only started substantiating his argument against me once he had multiple votes on him, some of which stemmed from his accusations of me. This seems like he's being overly defensive and trying to save his own skin once his accusation got him in hot water. Because of this, I'm going to vote for Nova.
##Vote: Nova_Terra
Also gonna note that this is OMGUS and bandwagoning. doesnt add anything new and votes me after i do him.
If i do die tonight i hope that no town forgets who Bandwagoned me, who brought cases up against me, who i called out, and who flips from me. because i bet theres at least 2 scum in there.
As your case stands pure, The major points are: I refer to roles in previous games a lot which is WIFOM and can be thought of either way; you choose to think it makes me scum, cant change that Im defensive; If you check out my meta, as mafia im not defensive as much as i am when town because i take it personally as town. of course, this probably doesnt mean anything to you as you find my meta referencing scummy, so note that i dont seem to care how the posts come out. scum would be all over that trying to round their posts like solohan did. You dont get my points about solohan being scummy; tell me exactly what you need clarification on Lazer and i working together; im actually going hard on lazer, as you can see from my analysis on his scummy posts. If solohan was lynched today, either him or you would be two of my top scum choice for day 2, as you keep pushing for an easy mislynch and seem to be okay with having people vote me without adding much at all, and lazer because of his scummy posts and flip flopping.
All in all, i find that i've cleared up everything i can just fine, you at this point just seem to be stuck on the same two things i cant really do anything to change your mind on. I've presented other options, and posted analysis on posts. Actually, i dont think that anything that i did at this point could change your mind as you seem to be trying hard to tunnel me, but i'll continue trying
WIFOM means Wine In Front Of Me, a reference from the awesome movie The Princess Bride. anyway it means something that can be read both ways and is therefore barely useful for discussion. Someone else can correct me or add if needed. EBWOP is Edit By Way Of Post as you cant edit in a mafia game. Unnecessary, but using it is fine.
At this point, can i ask all non me voters and me voters to switch over to either Crossfire or Solohan50? otherwise, im dead for sure and its damn hard to read anhing from a bunch of 1 votes.
Ah. Yea you missed at least one because I have one for myself if I recall correctly. ##UnVote: ##Vote: Oneplus
Sorry One... You seem to be the more likely of a scum then the others with votes in my eyes... and at least Nova has contributed enough to warrant being spared the first lynch in my opinion.
Nova is someone who is helping us bring out a lot of information at this point and is pretty good for the town I feel. I do not wish for him to be lynched day one. I am going to throw my vote in on oneplus - a player who so far has contributed nothing but a bandwagon on Nova Terra. His reasoning for going after Nova is that he sounds like a leader and is not helping aside from questioning others. Questioning others I feel is exactly what needs to be done at this point - especially on day one, it's good to ask some probing questions and get people to respond. Do you not see that this is the way it has to be, or are you trying to get us to focus on someone else? We shall see, but for now my vote goes for you.
35 minutes to deadline. If you are bandwagoninng me and town you should be reading my defenses and analysis of posts to see why i am still being more useful than many here.
Ugh...this really sucks. I don't think oneplus is scum, but I also don't think nova is scum. Since you have been actively contributing Nova, I am going to vote for oneplus to save you. Sorry, oneplus.
Thank you crossfire. I can tell you with complete honesty that this is the right decision. Even if i was scum, im providing enough info and discussion that i am more useful to the town than others.
So the end of the day is like 15mins away correct?
Only just got to work and access to the thread. So I won't have time to process everything. After quickly skimming through the thread I still like my initial view on Nova. I still find you suspicious, but I can't ignore the fact that you certainly are active, and there is no time to process everything thoroughly before the end of the day.
Well if you want Nova, we could fix that xD. Na just kidding. Glad to see you might survive the midnight hour. Though I think that last thing you posted to Cross was stranged to say town or otherwise. Not exactly damming,. just really weird like a bad joke.
On April 17 2012 05:54 TheRavensName wrote: Well if you want Nova, we could fix that xD. Na just kidding. Glad to see you might survive the midnight hour. Though I think that last thing you posted to Cross was stranged to say town or otherwise. Not exactly damming,. just really weird like a bad joke.
Yep it looks hella weird. probably because my mood changed from pissed to hopeful in a space of like 30 seconds
Guys sorry for beeing so inactive, my latop broke down 2 days ago ( seems to be a problem with lenovo v570 motherboards because it broke down 2 months after i bought it, and i've read alot of topic in wich people complained about this very problem ). I'll read the chat and make a vote, if i have time maybe i'll also try to make a case agaist someone if i see fit. Sorry again.
Sorry. I always have spontaneous thoughts that need to come out right then and there, and then after i realize theres another. etc. But its hard not to post many times in succession when you can spend an hour looking at different thhings and nobody posts within that time frame. especially when you are on the chopping block.
If you are town, I think you will continue to be active which is definitly something we need considering the level of lurkers we have in this game.
At this point I think you have contributed enough to spare you from the Day 1 lynch. As I said I haven't had a chance to really look through the last few pages thoroughly.
I still have my suspicions, but for now I might consolidate the vote on oneplus. To prevent any last minute switching.
The main thing I don't like is still those two posts, they just give me an uneasy feeling. You have certainly done some good work, and I like a lot of the things you have been doing in the thread. But those two posts just mean I have a heard time fully trusting you.
On April 14 2012 23:02 Nova_Terra wrote: Okay, thank god, not mafia :D I want to point something out. Note how both The Leader of the Town and Jitsu The Mafia Specialist died? Thats what we want here. Take someone down with you if you are a townie. Dont die in vain, at least post your thoughts first. I have the utmost confidence in our abilities as a town together to kill the mafia. BUT, until we get the town together, we will suck. So play a team game. Dont decide *SCREW EVERYONE ELSE, i understand exactly whats happening." So lets get this started.
On April 16 2012 02:11 Nova_Terra wrote: What now? Why would i not swap off of a pressure vote when the idea was to get that person to post? are you trying to tell me i should do exactly what i did as scum last game and be like, MEH, He posted, but i want to lynch him anyway? That hardly makes sense. Also, Lynching a lurker provides benefits like being able to see who voted when, peoples stances, and more importantly it sets an expectation that people who lurk will die. as an incentive to post. There isnt positive reinforcement on this game. If you lurk, you die. if you're active, you still might die, but at least you'll be helpful to the town first.
The parts I don't like are the first statement in the first post (not mafia part) and the overal tone in the first couple sentences in the second post (the part up to "That hardly makes sense").
There , finnaly managed to do it with the time pressure and this busted keyboard.... Copy pasting the # , as shift + 3 on this keyboard is £ . I'll be alot more active in the comming day.
(I'm counting oneplus vote despite beeing in the wrong format. Remember if it's not bolded I wont count it and if it's not exacly like this ##vote: I wont find it when I search. example omeplus who typed ##vote
In the space of 12 hours, Nova's tone has changed completely. From aggressive defense (when he was only aware oneplus suspected him), to a long period of silence and then muted responses to my initial case, to a reasonably patient defense that seemed reasonable but didn't really cover off or satisfy my case against him, but definitely won some people over.
I still have him pegged as scum, especially after his classic scum slip. Here is his quote:
At this point, can i ask all non me voters and me voters to switch over to either Crossfire or Solohan50? otherwise, im dead for sure and its damn hard to read anhing from a bunch of 1 votes.
- What he meant to say was "switch over to either oneplus or Solohan50", but for some reason said Crossfire instead. Why would he have said Crossfire? Because Crossfire is his scum ally, and he was in discussions with Crossfire at the time he posted. This is the most classic case of a scum slip possible.
Now how did Nova respond to this? Did he say a correction straight away? Nope. He didn't say a thing until TheRavensName commented on it, saying it was strange. Nova's response:
Yep it looks hella weird. probably because my mood changed from pissed to hopeful in a space of like 30 seconds
That is a damning as it gets. Crossfire was around at this time as well, because he was posting in the thread also.
I stand by my case against Nova, and I add what I've posted above to it. In addition to this, in my initial case I commented that I believed his accomplises were Lazermonkey and Crossfire. I'm even more convinced of this now.
Look at Lazermonkeys filter around the time I made my case against Nova and linked him to Lazer. Lazer vote flips in an absolutely classic attempt to distance himself from his scum partner. They then go into a back and forth about it, further attempting to distance themselves, but what do you know - they both have their votes on oneplus. As does Crossfire. When it looked safe to bandwagon oneplus, they did it.
I want to go into Lazer's posts in more detail, and I will if I get the chance tomorrow. But the filter is there for you to read it, and I encourage you to.
I've had a brief read through Crossfire's filter and the last bunch of posts are an absolute mess. He seems the least scummy of the three, but Nova's scum slip convinced me I was on the right track.
oneplus is town. I'm convinced of it, and you've bandwagoned onto it and played right into the mafia's hand.
That... is a pretty decent argument actually, the first one of which you have posted SC that makes sense to me in terms of not grasping at straws. Of course, it could have been a bait slip to get Cross killed or save One but it is a decent argument none the less.
An interesting quote from Lazermonkey about oneplus earlier today:
On April 16 2012 18:51 Lazermonkey wrote: I'm convinced that oneplus is a townie atm. His posts are far too stupid in order to be a scum. He might not understand it himself, but he is actually screaming to get lynched atm. Please think about what you piost in the future, if you really are a townie.
...
However, now he's voting to lynch him. I want to go through Lazers posts in more detail but don't really have the time so I'm just going to quote the most telling parts right now.
What's going on here. didnät lol, I'll read to catch up on current events but why was there no lynch yet and when exactly is it going to be? (todays deadline)
You know what? at this point I think I'm willing to believe that Lazer and Nova are working together. As such, I'm gunna change my vote unless something else can convince me in the next 15 minutes. But I'm not too sure about ya Pure.
'There! He's coming out!' a voice cried out in excitement! oneplus moved slowly as he was beeing escorted out the door by two guards holding the prisoners hands tightly tied behind his back. 'Murderer!' you heard someone start! And the echo was soon chanted across the square. 'Murderer! Murderer! Murderer!'. The mob led oneplus up to the platform. 'Any final words?' they asked him. 'It wasn't me, I didn't do it! oneplus stuttered'. But the mob was unstoppable. 'Liar!' they yelled. 'Hang him!'
Congratulations everyone for making it past the Day1 lynch. Although we are one townie short, we can now raise the bar what linguistic standard is concerned. Say what you will about oneplus' performance, he was the weak link in that regard. Hopefully there will be some insight to breadcrumbing the reads all over again with his faction and role in mind. I wish you all a pleasant reading experience and good night.
Fine, i'll post my reasons for the vote. Didn't really want to because the night is comming and the last time i accused somebody at the start of the night i got killed. Here is what i wrote earlier but wanted to keep it to myself until the end of the night I'll catch up on everything and start making cases. I voted for Terra because in my opionion he seems to be trying to hard. The vote/unvote thing bothered me from the start. The matter of fact is that in the beggining it had a positive effect, but in time that kind of posts only start turning people against eachother. I noticed that at a point almost everybody was accusing eachother for various reasons and the conversation went nowhere. More than this people started forming small groups. And i find this a very unhealthy behavior town-wise. In my opinion this was all caused by Nova_Terra. I don't know if it was on purpose or not, but the effect was negative nonetheless. More than this, i saw a post in wich he said ( correct me if i'm wrong here, i went thru everything kinda fast ), that in the last game he got killed for beeing to silent as a mafia. Now his behavior is not closer to normal, but it's the exact same opposite. I think he got mafia again and he tries to act compl different expecting a tottaly different reaction from the people. From what i've noticed, he is not really scum-hunting, he is not thinking on building a case and going after someone that he really belives is mafia, but rather he goes after everybody managing to only create dubt against everybody. Now, that was the reasoning behind my vote. But now that i've read your case-post i am alot more sure of my vote. If i don't die tonight, i am voting for him again.
macheji said: (about nova) More than this, i saw a post in wich he said ( correct me if i'm wrong here, i went thru everything kinda fast ), that in the last game he got killed for beeing to silent as a mafia.
Yeah, you did read wrong. Nova is a spammer, both as town (his first game) and as scum (last 2 games), so I really doubt he said that.
---
To Nova_Terra: I noticed something while reading through the last few hours of the thread, and it has to do with your reaction when macheji appeared 4 minutes before what we both thought was the deadline. Context: macheji has not yet voted, and will surely get modkilled during the quickly approaching nightpost.
Just compare my reaction…
On April 17 2012 05:57 BlueyD wrote: O_o macheji VOTE NOW or you get modkilled in 3 minutes!
To yours:
On April 17 2012 05:58 Nova_Terra wrote: Beauuuuutiful timing my macheji. a modkill now would suck.
It surprises me that your post lacks the urgency of mine. In your mind he’s got 2 minutes to vote and not get modkilled, and yet you’re not urging him to vote. I was panicking there and just hoping he’d hurry up and vote already and not just die stupidly on us. But you’re just... happy he’s there? He’s not exactly saved yet and you’re making no effort to keep him alive. Care to explain?
No, i meant Crossfire and not Solohan in that other post. That was correct. Then, he decided to not bandwagon me, which makes me find him more inno because of. As soon as i saw Macheji post, i immediately assumed he was voting. then when i realized he wasnt, i stratee getting more woreied, which my other posts refect.
Also, TheRavensName switched from oneplus because he thought that lazin and i are a team. What? i've been posting analysis on his scummy posts and we have been frequently referencing eachother which is a scummy thing to do. And hes my best scumread. your argument for switching doesnt hold much it seems. Thats scummy.
Apologies for clutter but i need a third post before school. At this point i would urge a medic or jailkeeper to think about protecting Pure. As it stands, there are high chances of his death that stem from him making cases, and him tunneling me.
It's a sad night, knowing an innocent townie was lynced and that it could have been prevented. I've spent some time reviewing how oneplus ended up getting lynched and have the following analysis.
The initial pressure vote on oneplus - voted in order to get more post activity: - Pure-SC2 (Pressure vote - removed later when I made my case against Nova and voted for him) - BlueyD (Pressure vote - removed but stated he was still suspicious, moved vote to TheRavensName as he was lurking)
=======
Following these votes, oneplus identifies a link between Lazermonkey and Nova which provokes a strong reaction from them both and a very interesting back and forth conversation occurs here. I'd recommend everyone re-read this knowing now that oneplus is a townie.
It was after this exchange that I posted my case against Nova, and had independently identified a link between Lazer and Nova.
Once the dust settled on Lazermonkeys quick vote flip onto Nova (following my case and association between Nova and Lazer), he initiates the vote that leads to oneplus's lynching.
=======
The votes on oneplus that lead to his lynching:
- Lazermonkey (April 17 2012 04:04): This is the initial vote on oneplus following the pressure vote. Summary of his reasoning is: - Oneplus gets super mad accusing both him and Nova with no reasoning (Ed: he quotes oneplus saying that Nova's defending doesn't make sense at all, something I agree with. KEYNOTE: In Lazer's post he responds to this quote as if oneplus said it to him, when he actually said it to Nova. Why is he responding to something said to Nova? This post needs further analysis). - That oneplus will think of him and Nova as scum regardless of what they say - Quotes FourFace/Lorant's bizarre purposefully silly post (which was from his smurf account) as evidence that other people think oneplus is strange. (Ed. Lorant, did you think oneplus was strange?) - Concludes that he is not sure whether oneplus is bad or scum, makes an association between oneplus and Lorant and states that lynching oneplus would give info about Lorant (though calls him durant which is confusing).
- TheRavensName (April 17 2012 05:17): Little over an hour after Lazermonkeys vote described above, TheRavensName votes oneplus. His reasoning: - "Sorry One... You seem to be the more likely of a scum then the others with votes in my eyes... and at least Nova has contributed enough to warrant being spared the first lynch in my opinion."
- Therapist (April 17 2012 05:25): Less than 10 minutes later, Therapist adds his vote to Oneplus. His reasoning: - He does not wish Nova to be lynched because he is bringing out information and is good for town. - Oneplus has contributed nothing but a bandwagon on Nova Terra (Ed: Did you even read his posts? He suspected Nova before I posted my case and identified a link between Nova and Lazer)
- Nova_Terra (April 17 2012 05:28): Three minutes later, Nova adds his vote to oneplus. His reasoning: - "okay, i will relent on solohan for now to consolidate a decent vote."
- Crossfire99 (April 17 2012 05:45): 17 minutes later, Crossfire adds his vote to oneplus (it's not bold, but obviously he's voting for oneplus. His reasoning: - He doesn't think oneplus is scum, but he also doesn't think Nova is scum. Since Nova has been actively contributing, he is going to vote oneplus to save Nova. (Ed: Interesting choice of words if you read his post. He is voting for someone he doesn't believe is scum to save Nova).
- BlueyD (April 17 2012 05:49): 4 minutes later, BlueyD provides a vote count, and adds his vote to oneplus. His reasoning: - It's between Nova and oneplus (useless keeping his vote on anyone else), and he's got more suspicions on oneplus than Nova.
- Daymor (April 17 2012 05:58): 9 minutes later, Daymor adds his vote to oneplus. His reasoning: - He has his suspicions on Nova, but thinks he's contributed enough to spare him from a day 1 lynch. - He consolidates the vote on oneplus to prevent any last minute switching. (Ed. He doesn't say he has any suspicions on oneplus).
- Crossfire99 (April 17 2012 06:00): 2 minutes later Crossfire unvotes oneplus, and then votes him again in the same post. - What on earth is this? His vote is already on oneplus and I can't for the life of me work out what this means, other than it looks very odd to me. I'd be interested in what anyone else thinks on this. Note: The time of this post was right at the expected deadline at the time it was made - the mods clarified that it was actually another 2 hours until the deadline.
- TheRavensName (April 17 2012 07:47): 13 minutes before the deadline, TheRavensName removes his vote from oneplus, and votes Nova. His reasoning: - At this point he believes Lazer and Nova are working together, and changes his vote unless something else can convince him in the next 15 minutes.
The day ends, and innocent townie oneplus is lynched with 6 votes.
Of the 6 people that voted for him: - Four have stated no scum related reason for voting oneplus (Daymor, Crossfire, Nova, Therapist) - One is not sure whether he is scum or bad town (Lazermonkey) - One is more suspicious of him than of Nova (BlueyD)
Of the 6 people that voted for him, 4 of them did not have any scum related reasons for voting oneplus. That is a very disappointing realisation. He certainly wasn't a lurker when you consider his input over the 59 (?) hour day.
Of the 6 people that voted for him, I have strong town leanings towards 2 of them, mild town leanings towards 1 of them, mild scum leanings on 1 of them and strong scum readings on 2 of them.
That's my analysis of what happened that led to oneplus's lynch.
He was an easy target because of his poor English. Please go and re-read his posts, look at his interactions with others and do your own analysis, then post it for everyone to see.
On April 17 2012 19:21 Pure-SC2 wrote: The lynching of innocent townie oneplus
It's a sad night, knowing an innocent townie was lynced and that it could have been prevented. I've spent some time reviewing how oneplus ended up getting lynched and have the following analysis.
The initial pressure vote on oneplus - voted in order to get more post activity: - Pure-SC2 (Pressure vote - removed later when I made my case against Nova and voted for him) - BlueyD (Pressure vote - removed but stated he was still suspicious, moved vote to TheRavensName as he was lurking)
=======
Following these votes, oneplus identifies a link between Lazermonkey and Nova which provokes a strong reaction from them both and a very interesting back and forth conversation occurs here. I'd recommend everyone re-read this knowing now that oneplus is a townie.
It was after this exchange that I posted my case against Nova, and had independently identified a link between Lazer and Nova.
Once the dust settled on Lazermonkeys quick vote flip onto Nova (following my case and association between Nova and Lazer), he initiates the vote that leads to oneplus's lynching.
=======
The votes on oneplus that lead to his lynching:
- Lazermonkey (April 17 2012 04:04): This is the initial vote on oneplus following the pressure vote. Summary of his reasoning is: - Oneplus gets super mad accusing both him and Nova with no reasoning (Ed: he quotes oneplus saying that Nova's defending doesn't make sense at all, something I agree with. KEYNOTE: In Lazer's post he responds to this quote as if oneplus said it to him, when he actually said it to Nova. Why is he responding to something said to Nova? This post needs further analysis). - That oneplus will think of him and Nova as scum regardless of what they say - Quotes FourFace/Lorant's bizarre purposefully silly post (which was from his smurf account) as evidence that other people think oneplus is strange. (Ed. Lorant, did you think oneplus was strange?) - Concludes that he is not sure whether oneplus is bad or scum, makes an association between oneplus and Lorant and states that lynching oneplus would give info about Lorant (though calls him durant which is confusing).
- TheRavensName (April 17 2012 05:17): Little over an hour after Lazermonkeys vote described above, TheRavensName votes oneplus. His reasoning: - "Sorry One... You seem to be the more likely of a scum then the others with votes in my eyes... and at least Nova has contributed enough to warrant being spared the first lynch in my opinion."
- Therapist (April 17 2012 05:25): Less than 10 minutes later, Therapist adds his vote to Oneplus. His reasoning: - He does not wish Nova to be lynched because he is bringing out information and is good for town. - Oneplus has contributed nothing but a bandwagon on Nova Terra (Ed: Did you even read his posts? He suspected Nova before I posted my case and identified a link between Nova and Lazer)
- Nova_Terra (April 17 2012 05:28): Three minutes later, Nova adds his vote to oneplus. His reasoning: - "okay, i will relent on solohan for now to consolidate a decent vote."
- Crossfire99 (April 17 2012 05:45): 17 minutes later, Crossfire adds his vote to oneplus (it's not bold, but obviously he's voting for oneplus. His reasoning: - He doesn't think oneplus is scum, but he also doesn't think Nova is scum. Since Nova has been actively contributing, he is going to vote oneplus to save Nova. (Ed: Interesting choice of words if you read his post. He is voting for someone he doesn't believe is scum to save Nova).
- BlueyD (April 17 2012 05:49): 4 minutes later, BlueyD provides a vote count, and adds his vote to oneplus. His reasoning: - It's between Nova and oneplus (useless keeping his vote on anyone else), and he's got more suspicions on oneplus than Nova.
- Daymor (April 17 2012 05:58): 9 minutes later, Daymor adds his vote to oneplus. His reasoning: - He has his suspicions on Nova, but thinks he's contributed enough to spare him from a day 1 lynch. - He consolidates the vote on oneplus to prevent any last minute switching. (Ed. He doesn't say he has any suspicions on oneplus).
- Crossfire99 (April 17 2012 06:00): 2 minutes later Crossfire unvotes oneplus, and then votes him again in the same post. - What on earth is this? His vote is already on oneplus and I can't for the life of me work out what this means, other than it looks very odd to me. I'd be interested in what anyone else thinks on this. Note: The time of this post was right at the expected deadline at the time it was made - the mods clarified that it was actually another 2 hours until the deadline.
- TheRavensName (April 17 2012 07:47): 13 minutes before the deadline, TheRavensName removes his vote from oneplus, and votes Nova. His reasoning: - At this point he believes Lazer and Nova are working together, and changes his vote unless something else can convince him in the next 15 minutes.
The day ends, and innocent townie oneplus is lynched with 6 votes.
Of the 6 people that voted for him: - Four have stated no scum related reason for voting oneplus (Daymor, Crossfire, Nova, Therapist) - One is not sure whether he is scum or bad town (Lazermonkey) - One is more suspicious of him than of Nova (BlueyD)
Of the 6 people that voted for him, 4 of them did not have any scum related reasons for voting oneplus. That is a very disappointing realisation. He certainly wasn't a lurker when you consider his input over the 59 (?) hour day.
Of the 6 people that voted for him, I have strong town leanings towards 2 of them, mild town leanings towards 1 of them, mild scum leanings on 1 of them and strong scum readings on 2 of them.
That's my analysis of what happened that led to oneplus's lynch.
He was an easy target because of his poor English. Please go and re-read his posts, look at his interactions with others and do your own analysis, then post it for everyone to see.
I gotta say.. personally I didn't think his English was that bad in my opinion. I never had that much trouble understanding what he said anyways. Maybe my grasp is weak enough for that though. It did feel a lot like it was just a very crutch excuse when I voted for him at the time, like it was: well I can't post that much cause I'm not very good at English... but I know several people commented it wasn't that bad and had no issue understanding him. Its part of the reason I had those initial scum readings on him.
On April 17 2012 14:03 Nova_Terra wrote: Also, TheRavensName switched from oneplus because he thought that lazin and i are a team. What? i've been posting analysis on his scummy posts and we have been frequently referencing eachother which is a scummy thing to do. And hes my best scumread. your argument for switching doesnt hold much it seems. Thats scummy.
Thats true. But then again you also still voted together despite the fact you were pretty much guaranteed to get lynched until I pretty much got Oneplus killed. Hell you woulda died anyways if he swapped his vote. If he really thinks your scum he would have hanged you last night. Or its just a ploy to make him look good.
On April 17 2012 20:17 TheRavensName wrote: I gotta say.. personally I didn't think his English was that bad in my opinion. I never had that much trouble understanding what he said anyways. Maybe my grasp is weak enough for that though. It did feel a lot like it was just a very crutch excuse when I voted for him at the time, like it was: well I can't post that much cause I'm not very good at English... but I know several people commented it wasn't that bad and had no issue understanding him. Its part of the reason I had those initial scum readings on him.
Yes, but your scum readings were wrong - he was innocent town.
Also, you didn't make any comments at all about the voting on oneplus. Is that really all you have to add following the day 1 lynch?
Before I head to bed I will throw up a quick post from my notes regarding the lynch on Oneplus, bare in mind that these are my notes, hopefully they make sense to you guys as well. NOTE: This has been copied directly from Google Docs, so the formatting might be a bit ugly, I will try clean it up but it's late and I want to go to bed.
ONEPLUS (Townie) - excuse for poor english - explanation of odds on random lynching - wants a town leader - argument with both @Nova & @Lazer - kind of OMGUS reaction to @Nova - thinks that maybe Lazer is bussing Nova - says Lazer changes his vote too sudden
** Initial post included an excuse for poor english, I really don’t like people posting excuses, especially in their opening posts, sets a bad precedent. But this excuse isn’t really related that much to gameplay so it is slightly more acceptable. Especially considering it appears english is not his primary language. ** Wants a town leader, not a huge fan of that idea, I would prefer everyone to work on their own and contribute to the towns goals as a group rather than relying on 1 figurehead to guide us around like sheep. ** Odds on random lynching, not terribly informative, anyone can do this basic math. ** Argues with @Lazer and @Nova who at that point I had scummy reads on, he does make some sense here and there but it can be hard to read and decipher at times. Forces a reaction out of both @Nova and @Lazer, claiming OMGUS for their pressure votes on him. But @oneplus had pressure votes on him from other players too, yet he only singled out @Nova and @Lazer. Thinks there is a connection between the two. But if you look @Lazer, you can see he has a town read on @Nova (prior to @Pure-SC2’s case), but i don’t know how invested into an argument you would get to protect a modest at best town read, but again that’s WIFOM. ** Thinks that @Lazer might be bussing @Nova, could be possible. States that @Lazer changed his vote too suddenly.
PEOPLE THAT VOTED FOR ONEPLUS
BlueyD ** From his posting history he seems to have a town read on @Nova, he has stated a few times that some of @Nova’s actions push him towards town, ie not worrying about his own safety and accusations and pressure on @Solohan. ** His lynch switch doesn’t raise significant eyebrows either. His vote would have been wasted had he not switched. If he is town he would try protect his town read (@Nova), if mafia almost anything can happen, although I imagine bussing your teammates at this stage would be retarded.
Crossfire99 ** Uses the phrase ‘to save @Nova’ rather than to lynch @oneplus. To me that signals that he is leaning town on @Nova, or is at least on the same page as @Nova. @Pure-SC2 thinks they could be scum teammates, definitely a possibility. I basically came to the same conclusion in regards to the lynch so can’t be too critical. ** Should make a point of pressuring him for his point of view, he doesn’t really seem to put his ‘money’ anywhere, almost looks like he will take whatever comes his way. I certainly expect more from him if he is to remove any scum suspicions.
Lazermonkey ** Seems to buddy up to @Nova, maybe he feels @Nova’s activity and pressure voting (which he states he likes) make him a townie read? This is confirmed in his post about switching his vote to Nova. @Pure-SC2 posted a good case on @Nova, which apparently was all the convincing @Lazer needed to switch. Although it’s a rather meek acceptance, slightly defends @Nova while still voting for him. Then finally says something along the lines of ‘if @Nova is townie gotta look @Pure-SC2’, counter-wagon maybe? ** Was convinced @oneplus was bad town (I think during their spat), yet is happy to vote for a bad town as opposed to anyone else. Kind of OMGUS.
Nova_Terra ** Seems to be rushing some posts, I would think that is more a sign of townie-ness being unafraid to post your thoughts immediately without fear. I know when I was Mafia I was careful to review and preview my posts before submitting them. No reason to think other players wouldn’t do the same. ** Didn’t sway from his town read on @oneplus. Only switched his vote as an effort to save himself which makes sense. I like how he sticked with his read on @oneplus, It’s perfectly acceptable to vote for someone else you have a read on to save yourself. Noone is going to lie down and accept a lynch when they don’t need too. He is also clearly more active than @oneplus, so it isn’t a bad idea to keep him around. There should be more than enough posts to analyse his play on. ** After my early suspicions of @Nova, I think he did a decent job of defending himself, he threw in a few posts which were a bit un-necessary (rude, put-downs etc). He was reasonably aggressive on his defense, a few people came in to post messages of support so either a lot of people have town reads on him, or his scum team and a few sheep came in to save him. ** Says he has a town read on @Pure-SC2, I think for almost anyone in the thread he is the most obvious town read. Would be very shocked if he were to flip Mafia at this point, however it is still early. @Nova was probably the easiest target due to his excessive posting. I wouldn’t think someone as Mafia would give a town read on someone who posted a good case on them, but that is simply WIFOM and nothing more at this stage.
Therapist ** Softly defends @Nova, saying that it’s a bandwagon that is forming. There were a reasonble number of people around at the time, if it was truely an easy bandwagon, why did more people not jump on? Several have town reads on @Nova, or at least state as much (@Crossfire & @BlueyD, @Lazer initially also, prior to @Pure-SC2’s case), his soft defense would suggest that he has either a town read on @Nova or is possibly a teammate? ** Doesn’t see a reason to bandwagon @Nova, but is willing to basically bandwagon @oneplus. Seems slightly hypocritical, but it could simply be because he has a town read on @Nova. Need more information.
Although his vote did not end on oneplus I will also include my noted on TheRavensName, because he switched late
TheRavensName ** Seems really indecisive, not contributing much in terms of post quantity or quality ** Early on states he has no issue with @Pure-SC2’s case, then @Pure-SC2’s post about the scumslip convinces him, then when he changes his vote to @Nova he isn’t sure about Pure-SC2 again. ** Throws his suspicions around without really providing any information why, doesn’t provide any reads either. ** Last minute of the oneplus lynch he switches off, this change of vote made absolutely no difference at all to the outcome, did it with 15mins to spare. To me that seems to indicate him trying to distance himself from the lynch target. Does he maybe know something we don’t? Possible, but certainly need more information and activity to determine whether this is the case.
CONCLUSION
I know this is a lot of information to digest and I am not sure how much of it people will agree or disagree with. In case I can't get online prior to the deadline tomorrow here is the link.
Also included in this mess if you have a look at my notes about @Nova_Terra it states in their why I was willing to take my vote off him to an extent. I will also briefly explain again here why I changed.
Nova_Terra has by far posted the most content in the thread so far, that's easy to see. At the time of the vote, I didn't have the time to thoroughly analyse roughly pages 10-14 prior to the lynch deadline. I skimmed through and noticed Nova_Terra had been incredibly active during this time so i chose to spare him so i could read through his posts to see what I thought of him. As you can see from my notes he is slowly erasing my earlier doubts about him. I am not yet willing to 'confirm him town' but he is trending that way.
I'm very busy today and won't be fit to debate anything until the day after tomorrow. If someone from the council of 4 is shot, he will either be replaced by the most active and sound player from the outer circle (i.e. everyone - (minus) Lazer & Novaplayer) or not .. that is for the council to decide halfway through Day2 which won't be like Day1 + Show Spoiler +
.. chaotic, breeding baseless and silly argumentation like I didn't want to vote for that guy so I voted for the other guy
. We will establish who is most suspicious prior to the deadline and synchronize our votes with a pre-vote (If there's a tie we seek the advice of our outside consultant (BlueyD).
Mid-nighttime is not the time to be making huge cases. Everyone prepare a statement and post it 2-3 minutes before daybreak to make sure mafia night action has been sent (hopefully the hosts don't mess it up).
Also i am very frustrated about the deadline because I had joined this game in the understanding that i would be able to be awake for the deadline. Now, i'm going to be giving myself 4 hours to sleep at night, as i have to be here for deadline.
I gotta be honest, I'm not too sure whats up with this council that got established, and I don't really want in on it. Now as to why I switched, personally I thought Pure made a decent argument. I don't regret anything about oneplus even though he did die, he is not much a loss; similiar to how my death would be. I do not reget voting Oneplus, at the time it seemed like the correct decision based on what people were bringing up and what others were reading into the situations. Pures argument about slips and the like is what convinced me to swap sides. I do think Nova and Lazer were quick to abandon their arguments in favor of hanging One, especially considering Lazer had said One seemed townie to him. Makes no sense to vote someone you are almost certain is townie to save someone who you arn't sure of (something he did say himself) and Nova's manerisms was enough to make me suspicious enough to change my vote.
I understand this does make me look fishy and suspicious; which is fine. I think me sort of getting one killed, sense I was the second person before the mass to vote for him, may have revealed a bit if nothing else. I do regret it but I think it may have gotten us a good day of information to process, which it seems no one has wasted time on doing.
Ill be making a statement that says my current best scumread/reads and my current townreads. not sure if thats what exactky what FF wants, but thats what i think will help best if i die.
TheRavensName, i still think your vote switch was to try to jump off of a bandwagon to make yourself seem inno. At that point in time, i had been posting analysis and defending myself much better, and therfore your defense of your flop doesnt make sense to me. Also, although there are many reasons that Lazer is suspicious, I do want to note that i think it is completely valid to vote for the person who isnt useful and is a pain to deal with day 1 instead of someone who has a slightly higher chance of being scum.
Personally, I am very concerned by these factions that seem to have been drawn and I think it may be harmful in the long run. Either one will almost certainly at least contain two of three scums. On one hand we have Nova and Lazer, people say Crossfire but I don't see it quite as much as the other two, while on the other hand we have Lorant's council of Four (Which I think should be three, I don't see myself on it and my name was thrown out at the start.) I think these really early alliances are a terrible idea and need to be watched by those on the outside, as well as those on the inside. There is almost no reason for people to have formed these so early and so easily, maybe they had a good read, or maybe they are mob and trying to stick together to make collective argument. It is far too early for such groupings. Nova and Lazer are very active and its a very small one, so it seems kind of safe, where as the council is made of people who supported the no lynch and against Nova immeditly... plus me for some reason despite being against both of these things and not wanting a part. Now The first one strikes me as odd because of how shifty and against each other yet agreeing the first pair is, while the other is composed of people that give me intial on the surface scum readings.
Just in conclusion, watch the members of both groups... they are the ones who will start or continue band wagons.
You are welcome to think that Nova. As I have said before I am not use to such detailed and calculated decisions and analysis. This is your third game in such a format and my First. An average game that I've played has been twenty minutes... much shorter then even a single day. I feel as though I am a bit of a disadvantage compared to the everyone else, who seems to have this as their second or third game, (or first on a smurf.)
Once again I am in no group with lazer.... But i do find it interesting that people like FF continuously make us out to be one, a rival one. And thats bugging me because the fact is, if some alliance is going against me, im gonna be mad. and when i get mad its gonna be SEE hes defending his Alliance. or thats what it keeps looking like its gonna be.
I as well came into this from sc2 mafia and real life mafia. 4 games later, I still find my play far inferior to others that have played less. Just try hard and you will do fine, or flip scum if you cant . The disadvantage is in your head. think of yourself of the same level as anyone else. dont let it stop you. That being said i expect some good analysis from you day 2.
No alliance, especially not exclusively against you, just a leadership conglomerate. Personally I think Pure-Sc2 is scummy but it could be just a gut feeling again. Nevertheless I think posting the way he does should be encouraged, hence the willingness to compromise personal opinion for the sake of empowering discussion and argumentation. If you'll adopt this philosophy there's perspective for you to join our ranks, especially with Raven abdicating his position a vacancy must be filled.. maybe 2 if one of us remaining members dies.
Hmm, interesting. I am not interested in joining a "leadership conglomerate" even if i did/adopted thoseprinciples you decided on. I thinkits a bad idea, and if one single scum was in it it would wreck everything massively. and then what happens when suspicions are made against someone in the conglomerate? And i dont even think that anyone officially accepted your offer as of yet.
On April 18 2012 00:29 Lorant wrote: I'm very busy today and won't be fit to debate anything until the day after tomorrow. If someone from the council of 4 is shot, he will either be replaced by the most active and sound player from the outer circle (i.e. everyone - (minus) Lazer & Novaplayer) or not .. that is for the council to decide halfway through Day2 which won't be like Day1 + Show Spoiler +
.. chaotic, breeding baseless and silly argumentation like I didn't want to vote for that guy so I voted for the other guy
. We will establish who is most suspicious prior to the deadline and synchronize our votes with a pre-vote (If there's a tie we seek the advice of our outside consultant (BlueyD).
Mid-nighttime is not the time to be making huge cases. Everyone prepare a statement and post it 2-3 minutes before daybreak to make sure mafia night action has been sent (hopefully the hosts don't mess it up).
Also assuming that Novaplayer is in fact me, how is this not Against lazer and myself?
You mean if a single scum is in our council he will manipulate everyone into voting unanimously against townies. That's gotta be one persuasive fellow, but even then his argumentation will be there for everyone to inspect. I'd much rather have us fight out a persuasion war than have people get away with making no sense at all and fucking up the votes. At least this way we can counter chaos with our joint efforts to establish order.
Well you two accused oneplus of being noob despite his excellent efforts to make sense out of the information and possibilities he had at that time.. he lost respect and became an easy target, mainly due to your lack of responsibility, he regarded you as a leader and broke his trust and tried to rape his self-esteem. That's why I don't want you to be considered a leader anymore.
Do you know Kohbee? .. You're like Kohbee and there's no point in talking to you as if you could understand the impediment of constructive atmosphere that your lack of self-awareness is producing.
Ahh. Well it was more of a continuation of another's thoughts Nova. Personally I'm more suspicious of him then you.
Anyways Lorant, what Nova is trying to say if one Scum is on your council, the entire group is going to be pretty heavily dammed in the eyes of everyone else. Thats the risk that happens with every alliance... and its why forming them on day/night 1 is a terrible idea.
On April 18 2012 06:44 Lorant wrote: Well you two accused oneplus of being noob despite his excellent efforts to make sense out of the information and possibilities he had at that time.. he lost respect and became an easy target, mainly due to your lack of responsibility, he regarded you as a leader and broke his trust and tried to rape his self-esteem. That's why I don't want you to be considered a leader anymore.
Where did this come from And yes, i still find his logic to have multiple fallacies and be newbie play. which is understandable given thatit is a newbie game. If he wanted to look at me as a leader, thats his decision. I havent been trying to play as a leader nor have i tried to claim to be one. I tried to rape his self esteem? no, thats false. My point is that it is a purposely made exclusion of Lazer and I, where i believe you just said it wasnt.
On April 18 2012 06:46 Lorant wrote: Do you know Kohbee? .. You're like Kohbee and there's no point in talking to you as if you could understand the impediment of constructive atmosphere that your lack of self-awareness is producing.
Rofl wait. I ask a question regarding your Strange council idea, and you tell me that it is worthless to talk to me because i dont understand what i am doing. and then relate me to someone else. wtf
The idea of a council is extremely strange. There are already two factions in this game - Town and Mafia. By creating a council, are you not creating a THIRD faction? So far it seems that creating a council that excludes others serves ONLY to piss people off and get people arguing back and forth. What is the point of this? Why not just play as one faction - TOWN. I'm for dropping all this distracting council stuff and just focusing on the task at hand - establishing your own innocence and hunting scum.
On April 18 2012 06:49 TheRavensName wrote: Ahh. Well it was more of a continuation of another's thoughts Nova. Personally I'm more suspicious of him then you.
Anyways Lorant, what Nova is trying to say if one Scum is on your council, the entire group is going to be pretty heavily dammed in the eyes of everyone else. Thats the risk that happens with every alliance... and its why forming them on day/night 1 is a terrible idea.
Yes, that is one of the reasons i meant in that it is a terrible idea.
On April 18 2012 06:57 Therapist. wrote: The idea of a council is extremely strange. There are already two factions in this game - Town and Mafia. By creating a council, are you not creating a THIRD faction? So far it seems that creating a council that excludes others serves ONLY to piss people off and get people arguing back and forth. What is the point of this? Why not just play as one faction - TOWN. I'm for dropping all this distracting council stuff and just focusing on the task at hand - establishing your own innocence and hunting scum.
Im wondering if the entire purpose of this was to piss me off. Because if he knows my meta in any way shape or form, i'll somehow rage out and die. Also his replies to me seemed as if they knew exactly what would make me mad.
An apathetic and Lazy town just plays into the mafia's hands. So far, there has been huge potential to make progress and only a few have even got involved.
The key lurkers right now based on my filter review: Therapist Macheji Lazermonkey (since his vote on oneplus) Crossfire (since the night post)
Also TheRavensName, Lorant and BlueyD. You really need to contribute more, including some of your own analysis and scum reads. Spend the time to read peoples filters and make your own opinions.
Well I'm a touch hesitant. My last scum read didn't go too well. But I'll make a post if I come back and I'm still alive (I don't know when the deadline is.) I have to go out for about an hour and a half or so.
Also TheRavensName, Lorant and BlueyD. You really need to contribute more, including some of your own analysis and scum reads. Spend the time to read peoples filters and make your own opinions.
I want to say right now that pure pretty much said my thoughts right here. These are three out of the 4 players that i find most suspicious right now. I'll be voting immedietely after deadline so you can see where i stand. assuming i live, of course.
I wouldn't say things like that Nova. It gives Mafia a good idea who to avoid killing but can still get lynched. Theres about six people that are safe railroads at this point. Though I think at least two of them would be streching, and it would be your 3rd and my suspect on your 4th.
In case of my death, my top four suspicions in order are 1. Lazer 2. TheRavensName 3. BlueyD/Lorant. My best town read is Pure. I think a Lazer lynch would be the best option if i died tonight.
Nova said: As soon as i saw Macheji post, i immediately assumed he was voting. then when i realized he wasnt, i stratee getting more woreied, which my other posts refect.
1. Macheji hadn’t voted, surely you saw that, so I can only imagine your post means “I thought he’d vote really soon.” 2.
I'll read the chat and make a vote, if i have time maybe i'll also try to make a case agaist someone if i see fit.
4 minutes to read the thread and vote, and he was considering maybe making a case? The guy had no idea that the lynch was (we thought) so close. “I’ll vote really soon” was obviously not in his list of priorities, and I can't see how you would think it was. Let's just ask him: To macheji: When did you think the lynch was before you read “vote now!” in the thread?
3. Back to Nova, whose more worried posts share one particularity: They both happen after what we thought was the deadline, when votes are typically not counted anymore.
That’s not a convincing reason to me at all. Sounds a bit scummy to me.
On Lazer and Nova: Suspicious of both at this point, probably at LEAST one scum between the two. Not sold on both being scum though, I think there’s a good possibility of scum + fool buddy here – I say we look to see if 1 the 2 was trying to buddy up with the other before the connection was pointed out, and lynch that one first. Town don’t try to buddy up because they don’t want to fall on a scum. Scum know their buddy is town.
I wanted to read both filters and compare but I gave up for the moment, didn’t have this much time this afternoon. STOP SPAMMING NOVA. You have 6 pages of posts already… -_-
On Daymor: On the good side, he’s contributing, but I’m not a big fan of how he changed his stance on both lynch vs no-lynch and Nova vs oneplus, though he did have reasons that don’t seem too far-fetched both times. I’m going to say cautiously leaning town for now, but if I die you guys have to watch for more flip-flops as I’m doing now and see if they mean anything.
To Lorant:Council is stupid or scummy, I don’t see the point in it, I don’t see the point in even talking about it besides wasting space. It can’t make people more logical than now, it can only make them more sheepish. You need to tell us why you feel Pure is scummy, by the way. ‘Gut feeling’ won’t do.
A lot of good stuff in Pure’s and Daymor’s posts already, so I tried to go where they didn’t.
Gotta go right after the flip if I want to catch the next bus back home, will see if I can analyze some more later tonight.
I'm not sure what is going to happen as we flip into the next day, so I'm going get my reads out there so everyone is clear on my stance and they can do what they want with it.
My case against Nova: I still believe in it, but he has done a good job defending himself once he changed his approach, and has enough support that he's not likely to get lynched at this point. I will be highlighting any further suspicious behaviour from Nova as I see it. Qudos to Nova for adjusting his approach.
Putting my case against Nova aside for now....
The case against Lazermonkey
I won't be as detailed with this as I was in my case against Nova. However I will state the main reasons why I find him suspicious.
Soft support of Nova with no stated reasoning - Agrees with Nova's stance on Solohan without stating any reasoning. This in itself isn't condemning, but was what initially had me noting him as suspicious.
Lazermonkey's vote flip following my case against Nova (which included a link to him): - This ia stereotypical scum behaviour. Once a link to Nova was raised (regardless of whether Nova is scum or town), Lazer flipped on him very quickly, going from supporting him, to voting for him to be lynched. - During the post he made where he switched vote to Nova, he stated he thought Nova's early game was good - then why is he voting for him? - He made sure to state the possibility that I might be scum, even though he liked my case against Nova. He is positioning himself to be able to play this out either way, which I find suspicious. - What is his motivation for this statement?
Atm I think the most interesting lynch would in fact be Nova. Not because he is confirmed scum in any way, but because of the possible information we could be given. If he flips town, we really need to think about Pure intention with his post.
- If you are looking for scum like behaviour, this is it. It's not some random read based on gut feel, this is based on how he reacted when the pressure of being linked to someone who had a case made against them.
Leads a lynch vote against oneplus, even after stating he thinks he is a townie - Some quotes from Lazer about oneplus:
I'm convinced that oneplus is a townie atm. His posts are far too stupid in order to be a scum.
I wasn't even pushing the lynch against him. I even said that I only thought he was a bad townie
- He then leads the vote against oneplus anyway. - Also makes a connection between oneplus and Lorant as "imo both him and durant is acting really strange" (Durant actually meaning Lorant). This was because Lorant offered to help with oneplus's english, which actually seemed townie to me.
Other than a comment to the admins, his filter has remained completely silent since voting for oneplus.
Lazermonkey has moved to number 1 on my scumlist. Nova is still leaning strong scum for me, and would be my second choice to lynch.
Crossfire is 3rd on my scum read at this time, and of the three is my least strongest read. However there are a few things that stand out, so I'm putting them out there.
Switched vote to oneplus to "save" Nova - This essentially relates to Nova, but I found Crossfire's choice of words suspicious when he flipped his vote to oneplus.
Ugh...this really sucks. I don't think oneplus is scum, but I also don't think nova is scum. Since you have been actively contributing Nova, I am going to vote for oneplus to save you. Sorry, oneplus.
Crossfire's phantom vote at the "original" deadline for day 1 - I found this extremely odd. Right at the original deadline (before the admin realised the mistake and added 2 hours), Crossfire made a post Unvoting and Voting oneplus. (please review this yourself) - This is after he already has a perfectly formatted, bold post voting for oneplus (made at 5:47 - i.e., 13 minutes earlier) - Why is this post made? Is it a mistake? Was he meant to unvote oneplus and move it to someone else but messed it up? While I can't make a solid read here it does ring suspicious to me.
What do you think?
His filter has been silent since the end of day 1.
Sorry for being afk, I've been really busy these past 24 hours. I believe someone was wondering what was going on with my crazy voting. Basically, I screwed up the voting format twice and wasn't sure if I had to unvote incase the mods thought I was trying to vote too many times. Hopefully I will get the voting format correct during day 2 (if I live through the night).
Because I've been afk for the last 24 hours, I didn't get a chance to read through everyone's filter after all the votes were counted. Right now I will focus on 2 things: this council thing and Nova, since he seems to be the popular one and the person I feel most confident in my read.
Council: I don't understand how this works because only mafia are allowed to have outside communication, so there is no privacy in this council. Also, I feel this council just divides the town into more factions unnecessarily, which isn't good.
Nova: I feel that Nova is a loud, opinionated, argumentative townie (no offense Nova). This is evidenced in his abundance of posts, a lot of which seem to be stream of consciousness (not sure I am using that right, but basically spitting out every thought, sometimes many posts consecutively). Because he is also argumentative, he seems to attract the ire of many townsfolk, who misinterpret his actions as having mafia motives.
I'll try to do my filter review on everyone before I go to sleep tonight.
Apologies for clutter but i need a third post before school. At this point i would urge a medic or jailkeeper to think about protecting Pure. As it stands, there are high chances of his death that stem from him making cases, and him tunneling me.
This post is scummy, all it does is add confusion while trying to make it look like you actually care about my fate (regardless of what alignment you are or what you actually think).
If town has a medic or jailkeeper, they will base their decisions on their own reads as they should. No one should be trying to direct them and doing so is a scum tell.
This is scummy and adds confusion because: - If the medic/jailkeeper read you as scummy (and let's say you are town), that means they would not follow your advice and look to protect someone else so it's achieved nothing other than adding a whole bunch of confusion. - If the medic/jailkeeper read you as scummy (and you are scummy), that means they would not follow your advice and look to protect someone else so it's achieved nothing other than adding a whole bunch of confusion. - If the medic/jailkeeper read you as town (and you're actually scum), they will follow your advice while you/mafia take down someone else. - If the medic/jailkeeper read you as town (and you are town), they will follow your advice while the mafia know you aren't mafia and hit someone else
Crossfire99 sat patiently in his office. He sucked on the cigar hanging from his lips. “No way those Radfield boys are going to get me…” he thought.
BREAKING NEWS!!!
Anchor Qatol: This just in. On the corner of 5th and 82nd on Liquidia City, gunshots have reportedly been heard being fired in a high rise office building! We now go to our reporter in the field, Incognito, for more information. Incog? Reporter Incognito: Thank you Qatol. Just moments ago, police received reports of gunshots fired in this office building in Liquidia. No information has officially been released yet, but there are rumors of foul play a foot. The victim? Crossfire99. He was peppered with submachine gun fire from close range as he was sitting in his office. No suspects have been found yet, and the police are openly investigating this murder. Back to you, Qatol. Anchor Qatol: Thank you Incog. A thrilling story. Up next, Woman Uses Hamburger to Fight Off Mugger. Learn her special Martial Arts techniques, Crouching Cow Hidden Ketchup, at 10:00. Qatol, signing off. + Show Spoiler +
Credits to Jitsu for the daypost
Crossfire99 the Vigilante has been killedIt is now Day 2, The Day ends in 48 hours
Pure, note my word choice when i said i urge a medic or jailkeep to think about protecting you. This is not trying to direct them, this is making sure they know what another townie thinks would be smart so they can add that to their thoughts. ofc if they find me scummy then that will probably be ignored. However, just the thought of a likely protection on you could be enough to keep one of our most pro town players safe, and that was a major purpose of this post.
I thought vigilante and wrote townie sorry. I'm sort of sleep deprived. I had an important exam today which is why I've been a bit of a screwup as your host the last days.
We have a serious lurker problem. The following people need to considerably step up their level of contributions and help town out;
Lurking particularly badly - Macheji - Solohan50
Lurking but posting enough to get by - Therapist - TheRavensName
Contributing, but want more - BlueyD - Lorant
Crossfire dying doesn't surprise me all that much, I was thinking that Mafia would probably target either a lurker, Pure-SC2, Nova_Terra or possibly myself.
Why did I not find his death surprising? Crossfire had been lurking fairly hard to start the game, he was unwilling to take a stand on anything really. His posts were wishy-washy-ish. Suspected a few people here and there but never built a solid case, defended himself from Lorant a little bit, although he wasn't in significant danger.
All this gives the impression that he wasn't really trying to ruffle any feathers and fly beneath the radar. Now in my mind, when I think about who could possibly have those motivations, it would either be a Blue or a Mafia. As it turns out Crossfire was a Vigilante, now why does this make him a good target? Easy, the Mafia are all well aware of who each other are, and I would imagine either 1-2 would be lurking trying to avoid as much responsibility and suspicion as possible.
So for them to shoot into the Lurkers, I figure the odds are they will either pick off a dis-interested townie or a blue trying to hide, neither of which are a bad result for Mafia.
This is why I think we really really need to start pushing these lurkers to step up and take some responsibility, yes this is still early days. But we have had like 80hours to contribute, that's over three days and some people have posted less than 10 times.
That is pathetic, if you are town what reason do you have for trying to blend into the background and contribute absolutely nothing? I honestly can't find any.
My Proposal
I think we should seriously consider lynching into this group of lurkers. At the moment I still think @Lazermonkey will be a good lynch, but he will be around the day after also. And the longer we let these lurkers contribute absolutely nothing towards the town's success the more detrimental it will be. If it comes to Day 3 and we still have people barely contributing, you are fast approaching the point where you have to lynch right or we lose.
Feedback Please note, this is just my observations of where we currently stand, I would really appreciate some feedback and opinions of what you guys think.
Clearly the fact that we have a lurker problem is not really in dispute. I admit this is a bit of a radical plan, but I think if we can fix the lurker problem sooner rather than later, we will have more posts to analyse from which we can hopefully pick up information from.
Macheji - Has only one post of note and no real analysis so far. I really need to hear more from him before I can say for sure. I can certainly understand the lurking through Day 1 because of the broken laptop, and he says he posted against his better judgement on Night 1, but did so nonetheless. If the lurking continues through Day 2 and longer, however, then I would find it quite suspicious. For now though, I'll consider it a null read.
Therapist - Relatively close to the notes for Macheji, minus computer breakage. Has more posts, but not a whole lot of analysis either. I'll consider it a null read as well, for now, but I will definitely be leaning towards scum if the lurking continues.
TheRavensName - His vote switch at the end has me a little concerned. At that point in the game, it made absolutely zero difference in the outcome, but it would allow a player to distance himself from the lynching of a Townie (oneplus). He also didn't seem to back up this vote switch with much besides:
On April 18 2012 04:58 TheRavensName wrote: Now as to why I switched, personally I thought Pure made a decent argument. I don't regret anything about oneplus even though he did die, he is not much a loss; similiar to how my death would be. I do not reget voting Oneplus, at the time it seemed like the correct decision based on what people were bringing up and what others were reading into the situations. Pures argument about slips and the like is what convinced me to swap sides.
Combine that with a fair amount of posts, but little analysis, and I'm leaning towards either scum or just bad gameplay.
Lorant - This is one that confuses me a bit. Between the FourFace posts and everything else, this took me awhile to sift through. He has posted a couple of good analysis posts and also calls for votes based more on evidence, rather than minor things. On the other hand, the Crossfire vote is strange and had absolutely zero effect, which would be a good place to hide if you're scum that doesn't want to get caught up in a heated vote. There's also the crazy idea about have 4-man counsel, which I feel is really bad for Town. I find it especially odd because the idea of having a leadership counsel follows this post that says leaders are bad:
On April 16 2012 21:16 Lorant wrote: It is natural to consider someone who posts a lot to be your leader. I have a general advice to all the players, don't do that. Being able to juggle with ideas in multiplayer is a more valid qualification than writing everything you can think of right away in order to satisfy your itchy fingers. + Show Spoiler +
If you feel like the latter kind of person you should leave this thread neat and go typerace instead. typeracer
I honestly can't tell if these contradictions are a ploy to distance himself from Nova/Lazer, if it's an elaborate scum trap, or if it's just the rantings of a delusional FourFace townie. My read on this is...confused.
I have time for one very brief post before school, I did fully intend to vote immediately after daypost, but once it actually got to the daypost i just wanted to fall asleep. Im very interested in why mafia went for a bluekill on crossfire. im thinking that this could be a sign that we are totally off. Also im very surprised that lazer hasnt defended himself. im still trying to decide of that makes him more townie.
Pure’s case on Lazer is very good in my opinion. Just want to add something on the whole Nova-Lazer connection:
- Nova is the first of the Nova-Lazer pair to agree to lurker lynch - Nova is the first to call Solo scummy - Nova has his vote on macheji when Lazer puts his on the same player - Nova asks Solohan to find his own suspicious behavior, Lazer says Solo should respond - When oneplus calls them out, Lazer is the one who first turns on the other.
These aren’t really buddies. This is Lazer trying to ride on Nova’s wave, and he gets off the wave right as Nova gets suspicious in some people’s eyes. This is not something we can really hold against Nova in my opinion. This is certainly something that makes Lazer suspicious.
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Just… Wow, Lorant…After you made a big deal about Nova “betraying the trust” of oneplus and being unfit as leader and trying to take the aforementioned leadership for a 4 man council handpicked by you, you post a joke end-of-night post. I don’t know what to make of this. Looks a bit scummy to me, but on the other hand, that post is such a joke… It’s too easy. You even bring up the stupid council-of-4 again after people have attacked you for it.
Please stop fooling around and play the game. Defend yourself.
1. I’ll ask you to explain why you left us nothing (not even a quick list of reads) in case of your death, and I’ll ask you what your current scumreads are.
2. Also, in case it got buried, I’ll say it again: I’d also like you to explain why you flagged Pure_SC2 as scum. I mean, reasons other than ‘your gut’.
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To Daynor: That’s an interesting suggestion. We do have a lurker problem, but I think your solution is too radical unless we can get a really good case on a lurker. I remind you, that if we mislynch we’re at 5vs3 (MYLO) tomorrow, and with mandatory lynching MYLO is essentially the same as LYLO.
I think we should concentrate on getting the most scummy person now that we have a lot of info out. I also do think we should start making cases on our less active players. I will do that tomorrow, for now I have to sleep.
Thanks for providing some input on my suggestion, still want to hear from others as well. Of the lurkers I reckon either Solohan50 or TheRavensName would be the ones I am most concerned with, and I could quite possibly form a case against both that I would be happy enough to present, but at this stage I am not sure how wise it would be to post cases for multiple individuals, we should probably try come to a unified conclusion.
Currently I do still have Lazermonkey as my strongest scum read, so I would be more than happy to post my case on him and also push the lynch in that direction. But at this stage i feel we really need to motivate the lurkers to contribute. Lynching one provided the case is solid I think would accomplish this fairly well.
On Lorant
Based on Day 1, I was happy to read him as leaning town, but some of his more recent posts are starting to push me away from that direction. One of the issues is the point you raised, he pushes everyone to post some analysis prior to daybreak here.
On April 18 2012 05:29 Lorant wrote: Post what you'd like others to hear in case you die.
Says he will go off and prepare his statement.
On April 18 2012 06:48 Lorant wrote: A little disturbance in eloquence there but it's alright, now I'll leave you talking to yourself while I'm preparing for my statement.
Then returns at the deadline to post a playlist. So he was there and I personally haven't looked at the playlist, but I imagine it would have taken a similar amount of time to make as posting some brief thoughts on his reads. To have such dis-interest in providing anything prior to the deadline, I can't help but get the impression he either knew he was safe, or simply doesn't care about the town. Either of those outcomes is a problem.
If he posted that for any other reason I would really love to hear it.
'The Council'
Several people have mentioned their dis-approval of this idea, I personally am not terribly keen on the idea either. It gives me the impression of a stalling tactic a way to waste time and discussion, and to that extent I think it has succeeded.
In amongst the rubbish, he does raise some points which I find reasonable; - Establishing order as he puts it, to me means a good atmosphere. Yeah sure, that's fine. - The idea of a council as far as a group of people contributing to the construction and refinement of a case on a possible lynch target, that is also fine. - Arbitrarily assigning players onto said council? That's where it starts to get a bit stupid again.
@ BlueyD, about Nova_Terra
I notice you had a town read on Nova early in the game, you stated as much and provided some defense for him when he was a lynch target.
I myself am starting to lean towards Nova_Terra being more town than Mafia. I just want to know, has your opinion changed? I have in my notes that you believe one of either @Lazer or @Nova is mafia but not both.
I agree with you on the lurker problem we have, though it's good to see Solohan's input today and think he had some good analysis there.
Of the three other lurkers (Macheji, Therapist, TheRavensName), the only one I have a slight read on is TheRavensName. I haven't looked at this closely, but am aware he switched votes out late when it didn't make a difference, and voted Nova while not being sure of me - which seems like a strange thing to do.
I'm really not sure about a lurker vote right now, as we have several other actual leads to go on. We are into day2, we've lost 2 town and I'm not sure we are in a position to lynch someone we don't have a read on.
I've not included Lazer there, but he hasn't posted since his oneplus vote, and is lurking hard right now. It makes me think someone has told him to stop posting in order to get out of the spotlight which further adds to my suspicion. Nova stated he thought that this made him seem more town. @Nova, why is this?
Reading all your cases is enjoyable, wasting space to argue about the council is not so stop that. I'd like to try a different approach than posting cases, I'll be looking at agenda to find what's crackalackin in that collective little scum head. I'll be defending myself against the accusations in a subsequent post right after this one.
Why would scum shoot Crossfire99 (clues found in his filter)
a.To reinforce what he said. Scum sought out someone who said exactly what they want to achieve (who they want to kill) so they bring his posts to the spotlight.
On April 17 2012 05:45 Crossfire99 wrote: Ugh...this really sucks. I don't think oneplus is scum, but I also don't think nova is scum. Since you have been actively contributing Nova, I am going to vote for oneplus to save you. Sorry, oneplus.
##Vote: oneplus
My question is would scum kill someone who accused them directly? I think it would be hideous, they'd much rather mold the kill into an instrument to get the next mislynch+ Show Spoiler +
Who made a wastebasket case against him? Me. Who voted for Crossfire? Me. Who did Crossfire ask about the reason to vote for him instead of those who had been called out as suspicious? Me. I'm pretty fucked .. this is exactly why I should be confirmed town BUT since I'm the one pointing this out I could also have masterminded this to trick all of you. So I'm not confirmed town at all but the suspicion on me is a game that has advanced to a higher level.
and throw in a subtle town confirmation on one of them+ Show Spoiler +
but I also don't think nova is scum. Since you have been actively contributing Nova, I am going to vote for oneplus to save you
b.Bluesniping Crossfire may have given himself away with this post, note the bold part
On April 15 2012 11:37 Crossfire99 wrote: I disagree with the idea of a no lynch day 1. I agree that we most likely won't get a mafia, but that doesn't mean a mislynch is entirely bad. If there isn't a lynch day 1, no one takes a stand on the lynch, and we don't learn much because there is no discussion of who to lynch. This also means that the power roles will be at a disadvantage because their choices for their night 1 actions will be mostly random due to the lack of information. With a lynch, everyone has to take a side, so even if this only provides a small amount of information, it is information the power roles can use to narrow down the targets of their actions.
Basically, I think we must lynch someone day 1.
Personally I think this was the best kill I've ever seen in a mafia game. Even better if those who kept the lynch-or-nolynch-on-day-1 debate going were in fact scum to fish for blue reaction, and wheel it in like they did.
My suspicion up to this point is on solohan because Crossfire was constantly referring to him .. so I think he could've noticed the blueslip more easily. The fact that he didn't tell town about this makes me think he's scum. So this is more of an anti-scumslip. Outing himself as scum by not giving out info that he could've gotten through analysis and observation. Same story with Therapist. So that's the direction I'd like to tunnel today.
I agree it was good to see Solohan's thoughts, but he is basically coming in, posting enough to avoid suspicion and appear he is contributing then disappearing into the shadows again. Just like many of the other lurkers. This is the main problem I have with them.
I really do believe that there is at least one, possibly two mafia just hiding amongst the lurkers. Surely after the volume of posts in the thread there should be more than information to make a case on anyone (except Macheji who has posted so little he needs to be pressured), whether that case be town or mafia. Before the end of the day I want to see these people contributing. If you are town there is zero reason to not contribute something, it doesn't matter if you get the wrong read, it's your logic and reasoning that we want.
I agree that TheRavensName is probably the most suspicious, but that is also because he has posted more than most of the other lurkers. That is precisely the reason they are lurking. They don't want to incriminate themselves. At some point we are going to have to lynch into the lurkers. But I do appreciate the fact that you think we need a solid case before we do so, I completely understand and think the same.
As stated earlier, I still think Lazermonkey is my favourite lynch target. Would like to see something from the other people too.
1. About the statement. I meant to troll. There's no reason to hide my true nature now that it's clear I'm FourFace.
2. Council or no council, that is the question. To council is to do and to do is to council. I honestly believed we could get more quality discussion if we had a conglomerate of active people synchronizing their votes based on the quaity of each member's argumentation. For various reasons already stated .. the argumentation would be "out there" for everyone to see AND generating an additional dimension of information which is: who is compliant to drop his personal accusation of a suspect in favor of a heavier vote on another suspect and why/to what degree. The council would also be a counterweight to all the baseless voting that has been going on Day1. So everyone outside the council - + Show Spoiler +
@BlueyD I tought the lynch was in a couple of hours. Because of the tehnical issue i couldn't look into the timing exactly but i knew it was sometime that night, since the ''i'll post a case if i have time''. I had no ideea it was in a couple of minutes.
Alright, I'm going to try being a good player so heres a little thing I noticed based on Solohan's filter, which makes me think Nova might have been on the right track with him
1. He starts off making a decision that lynching lurkers is okay, but then starts to embrace the no lynching immediately but unlike the others only makes that one post about it then avoids the topic, probably enough to bait his fishing out that it wasn't necessary (Crossfire even makes a post DIRECTLY against his argument for it, which Solohan acknowledges was posted, but makes no real comment on it.) 2. He starts off with a case against Nova, after he had already voiced suspicion on Solohan, and then literally doesn't post again until after the vote. At this point heat on him wasn't that high except from Nova, but I think that makes it a little more suspicious sense it seemed like he wanted to get in, get his vote on someone he thought would get killed, then hide out so he couldn't get cross examined. 3. His next post is not only after the vote, but the entire night cycle. And he posts against the lurkers, no mention of his case against Nova again. He was fairly convinced that Nova was Scum the day before and made no motion of addressing that. I think just accusing the lurkers as opposed to more active people is a touch too safe. 3B. Personally, even if I'm just reading it wrong, I find the fact he thinks that I swapped my vote to his side, a person he voted for and made no discussion on anyone else, makes me suspicious. I notice he seems to only voice suspicion about people who other people have been, such as myself and Nova. Its a touch too safe in my opinion.
I've spent some time today reviewing Lorant's posts as I've been confused by his posts and don't have a read.
One thing we know, he is not a newbie and is playing under a smurf account (as he was previously FourFace). The FourFace post looks accidental, but I think we have to keep in mind that he might have had some reason for intentionally posting from that account and outing his "smurf".
Either way, he is not a newbie. I don't know anything about his history as "FourFace", but Nova seemed to know the name and have some association with it. Is this relevant? No idea. @Nova, maybe you could tell us what your feel is towards FourFace?
Lorants initial posts: - Nothing much going on here, favours a lurker lynch, recommends keeping a journal, kinda fluffy really. Makes a good point on Nova's stance on Solohan which I didn't register prior to this review
Contributes to day 1 vote: - First post of real substance is a vote for Crossfire. Mainly based on gut feel, and due to Crossfires number of posts on the no-lynch policy and sheeping Nova on Solohan. Says he will remove his vote if Crossfire adds a single valid argument about Solo being scummy.
He then makes his FourFace post (which he doesn't realise until Nova points it out) - This post raises the left field suggestion of the council, and he drops the names of who he sees in this council and again he's essentially attempting to lead this here as he states "Our" first order if business shall be to review his suspicions of Crossfire. - I've gotta admit, I didn't take this post seriously as I thought it was just a ridiculous throw away post to provoke some reaction and only revisited it once I realised he was actually serious. I really don't know how to read it. - His explanation for smurfing is that he wanted to move away from his FourFace meta (doing crazy stuff to make people believe he's town).
He then contributes some analysis and response to my case on Nova, and fingers Lazer early on - This is after Daymar and I had posted suspicions on Lazer - Advises all players to not follow someone who posts a lot as a leader - Condemns Lazer for calling Solohan scummy without having gathered enough evidence to help town make an opinion on him.
Recommends everyone to prepare a statement and post it 2-3 minutes before daybreak - Good advice I think, but this is quite an interesting post to note based on what occurs later
Personally states me as Scummy, doesn't elaborate and states it could be just a gut feeling. - Implies that while he finds me scummy, he thinks the way I post should be encouraged so he is willing to compromise his personal option of me for the sake of empowering discussion. No further details provided on why he finds me scummy. @Lorant, what do you find me scummy?
Lorant gets into a back and forth with Nova - and this back and forth needs further analysis I think. - Some interesting points here, but he comes across quite melodramatic and is set on his council idea, and arbitrarily adjusts who is/isn't in it. - Seems to be trying to lead people into the council idea (while stating he doesn't want Nova to be considered a leader anymore). Interesting to remember here that he advised everyone earlier to not follow someone who posts a lot as a leader. - Blames Nova/Lazer for the lynch on oneplus. This is reasonable to me based on what happened.
Lorant provides his night statement - This is a joke and a poor joke at that. I'm really not sure how to take this, and even more so I'm not sure how he intended it to be taken, - After requesting everyone to prepare a statement, and stating himself he is preparing his own statement, this is an insult to the town I feel.
Lorant provides some analysis - I found this interesting, as he had some different angles for looking at things. - His points on why Crossfire was taken out were good, specifically the bluesniping section. - Adds more confusion though with his comments about how he made a case against Crossfire and how that looks bad for him, then goes on to say how because he's pointing this out that he could have masterminded it all to trick us. - Fingers Solohan
Finally - a strange post about the council - Again trying to lead into the council (he's set on this idea), offering a be in or be out stance.
Overall, I find there is way too much smoke and mirrors around Lorant right now and it makes me feel suspicious towards him. I definitely had an early town reading against him but I don't any more.
His council idea actually has some merit for me, and can see why doing something like this may provide a clearer way to lead voting, but its based on the assumption that even if a scum member is in there, there will be more town members making the scum element less influential. But what if it includes 2 scum? or 3? It sets up a chance for them to lead the voting under the guise of the council and as such I don't think it's the right approach.
Lorant, for me, you need to cut the smoke and mirrors, stop messing us around and play straight. I'll be keeping a closer eye on your filter.smurf
Oh man, 9 pages in and i have a full paper of notes. Most of them on Nova_Terra and Lazermonkey. I saw an obvious connection between the two of them. Share briefly with Pure-Sc2 , but tbh i find Pure-SC2 very ''town'' atm , not sure what that was about ( ganging on solohan w/o any evidence ) . I have to decide if i should make a list with everybody or just post my scum conclusion and post a case vs 1,2 people. What do you guys prefer ?
On April 18 2012 20:59 Macheji wrote: Oh man, 9 pages in and i have a full paper of notes. Most of them on Nova_Terra and Lazermonkey. I saw an obvious connection between the two of them. Share briefly with Pure-Sc2 , but tbh i find Pure-SC2 very ''town'' atm , not sure what that was about ( ganging on solohan w/o any evidence ) . I have to decide if i should make a list with everybody or just post my scum conclusion and post a case vs 1,2 people. What do you guys prefer ?
Go through it all and make your own decision. That should be based on what you think would be most beneficial to town.
Okay, I'm here for about 10 minutes. I want to note Crossfires death. There are 3 noticeable interpretations that i have noticed so far. 1. Crossfire was killed because he was going hard on Solohan, so that would either help protect solohan from future cases by Crossfire against him or throw WIFOM against solohan, 2. Crossfire was killed because Lorant voted for him and went hard on him instead of going over anything else, and its either a way to frame Lorant or Lorant protecting himself and noting it smartly, 3. Crossfire was killed because he was an easy blueread.
The thing that is noticeable to me here is that, 2 of these 3 interpretations dont really seem to be a result of mafia being suspected by Crossfire. Also the 1 left over i find to be the most unlikely. Therefore; Mafia didnt feel threatened enough by anyone else that they decided they could frame somebody or more likely kill a blue. So i am now worried about our reads having been very wrong.
Also, Lazer hasnt posted like, at all, recently. I think that he would have responded quickly to our pressure on him if he was mafia. WIFOM, but to me it seems like someone with a personal issue or a townie who is just bored of the game, based on experience. I wish to wait for a defense and explanation before voting him.
I am frustrated that i forgot about solohan50 in the way i did after voting oneplus. Solohan needs to fix his play up, and post something very enlightening. So for the time being, ##Vote: Solohan50 This is not final, but it will stand until Solohan posts something of good value or someone else does something scummy enough to turn me off of solohan. I really hope that Solohan tries hard to post a good filter based case.
The time for voting to put pressure is over. You are creating enough chaos. You are promoting 3 theories, you doubt them in your post and then you propose a lynch ? We need cases, transparency, not chaos. I'm reading and reading and most of the conversations are garbage you stirred up.
Are you telling me that i shouldnt pressure a player who is scummy and isnt doing enough with a vote? Thats not creating chaos. its forcing him to protect himself. Back up your last point with filter
I'm sorry for not posting in a while now. Been busy IRL and stuff. reading the post through atm, will try to post something in a couple of hours as I'm not at home untill ~5 hours...
I'm dizzy after the first 10 pages so i'll stop here for the moment. I may come back later today to finish and make a new post. So far. + = town - = mafia Daymor (+/--)-> In the start he favored both no-lynching / Lynching me. At the moment , lynching me gave no information. So he was ''divided'' between getting no info from a no-lynch to lynching the guy whos death would bring the less info(-). Also, from what i've seen, i've got the impresion he is a very guilable, easily to be impressed person that changes mind-stances often(+/-). Lorant ( +/--- )-> Gave a good very good town advice in the start ( the journal thing ) +. Proved to be a smurf of fourface that ''likes to do crazy things so town does not think he is mafia'' -> Creates this thing called The Coucil of Four ( crazy thing -- )to rise against Nova_Terra but dosn't really accuse him of anything, this seems a bit dubious , like a false conflict ( - ) Crossfire ( ++ )-> I know now he's dead, bear with me ( did not know the name of the guy that got killed last night when i made this so that i don't get subjective)... Made a post regarding the fact that people , especially blues will have no info if there is a no-lynch , this was a giveaway for me ( ++ ) [b]NovaTerra (++/--------[/b )]> oh man, oh man... .... Ok here we go. Accuses Solohan of appology post -> makes appology post moments later ( --- ). Made alot of accusations w/o arguments(-)(ex vs solohan, therapist ). Spamming, atleast 6 posts in the first 7 pages saying the same thing(-). From page 8, 18:25, when he is beeing accused he start to seem very troubled, he makes post-after-post, very twitchy. He goes crazy about him beeing the most active person. He gets even more crazy when someone mentions him beeing in the same team with Lazer.At first it seemed like an ok reaction, the guy was mad because he was wrongfully accused, but why get even more stirred up when beeing named a teammate of Lazer, that's something kinda specific to be generally mad against. Also, when Oneplus attack him he tells him he is digging his own grave, he was so sure about it, like he had some power the rest of us do not. Also when Oneplus attacks him in one post he says he is not impressed... he's not impressed of what ? When someone innocent is beeing accused of something, does it ever occure to him to say that he is not impressed with the case against him ? I am acc thinking of those real-life gangsters or white-collar criminals that laugh on the tv when they are beeing accused. ( -- ) . In another post he is accusing bandwaggoning when people started voting for him, but he had no problem with people bandwaggoning when there were like 4 voting me for beeing inactive or for 4 more to vote for oneplus when he got killed. ( - ) . He is by far the most frequent poster ( ++ ), but his posts lack any real information ( already rated this ) . Also it's clear in his mind that mafias are people that generaly don't want attention, so he may meta this and try to hide the poop in plain sight. He even says at a point that '' you do not vote for an active thought player for info'' when someone suggested his lynch in order to get information. Lazermonkey ( ---- ) > Agrees with Nova_Terra on solahan beeing scummy even tho there were 0 arguments Why ? ( - ) Calls therapist scum again w/o evidence Votes for me -> Side with N_T vs oneplus -> is accused on multiple front of mafiateam with N_T-> says he is conviced oneplus is town -> Votes N_T without revealing to much -> In the end votes oneplus ( --- ) Therapist ++ > I only see i noted that he gave me the impression that he really does not want a misslynch ( ++ ) TheRavensname ( +/- ) > a bit wierd that at page 6 he accuses Nova_Terra of beeing to lynch happy ( +/-). 1 hour later he votes me and Nova_Terra + Lazermonkey ( the ''double'' at that point) soon fallow. Pure-SC2 ( +++/-- ) At a moment he accused Solahan for beeing a scum, fallowing N_T and LM, when there were no arguments or evidence. THe only thing i noticed about Solahan until that post was that he was a bot noobish at this game. Later on he goes after oneplus because he said N_T and LM are scummy without any arguments/evidence. ( -- ) But, to be honest Pure-SC2 has made alot of valuable posts since then. I found them clear, argumented, transparent and it seemed to me like he added alot to the game ( +++ ) . Still the mark of doubt remains.
Also this just came to me.... The voting was really close, and a townie died. So there must be mafias among the voters so they manage to incline the vote.( and it does not surprise me N_T and Lazer are there ) Atleast 1 , maybe 2.... Now , the voters were .. Nova_Terra, Therapist, Crossfire, BlueyD, Lazermonkey Crossfire died... So that leaves us with Nova, Therapist, Blue and Lazer. Now atleast one of these are mafias. I am inclied to go for either Nova_terra or Lazer.... There is a slight chance Nova_Terra is just jilted by nature and Lazer mafia-sheeped him ... but a slim chance. I am almost sure one of them, or both, are mafia.
On April 18 2012 22:43 Macheji wrote: [b]NovaTerra (++/--------[/b )]> oh man, oh man... .... Ok here we go. Accuses Solohan of appology post -> makes appology post moments later ( --- ). Made alot of accusations w/o arguments(-)(ex vs solohan, therapist ). Spamming, atleast 6 posts in the first 7 pages saying the same thing(-). From page 8, 18:25, when he is beeing accused he start to seem very troubled, he makes post-after-post, very twitchy. He goes crazy about him beeing the most active person. He gets even more crazy when someone mentions him beeing in the same team with Lazer.At first it seemed like an ok reaction, the guy was mad because he was wrongfully accused, but why get even more stirred up when beeing named a teammate of Lazer, that's something kinda specific to be generally mad against. Also, when Oneplus attack him he tells him he is digging his own grave, he was so sure about it, like he had some power the rest of us do not. Also when Oneplus attacks him in one post he says he is not impressed... he's not impressed of what ? When someone innocent is beeing accused of something, does it ever occure to him to say that he is not impressed with the case against him ? I am acc thinking of those real-life gangsters or white-collar criminals that laugh on the tv when they are beeing accused. ( -- ) . In another post he is accusing bandwaggoning when people started voting for him, but he had no problem with people bandwaggoning when there were like 4 voting me for beeing inactive or for 4 more to vote for oneplus when he got killed. ( - ) . He is by far the most frequent poster ( ++ ), but his posts lack any real information ( already rated this ) . Also it's clear in his mind that mafias are people that generaly don't want attention, so he may meta this and try to hide the poop in plain sight. He even says at a point that '' you do not vote for an active thought player for info'' when someone suggested his lynch in order to get information.
In the future, please use actual examples from filter to prove your points. I dont recall accusing Solohan of an apology post and then making an apology post right after. I dont recall ever making an accusation against therapist, and i still feel that me noting that Solohans first post was scummy and wanting him to give his thoughts regarding it first was perfectly valid, and i did have an argument. Of course i get crazy when people continue to say that im in a team with Lazer; I made good analysis on him and find him reasonably scummy. A day 1 bussing plan is possible sure, but likely in a newbie game? not so much. Oneplus' attack and case for voting me were bad, and therefore i was not impressed. Thats fine if you choose to think of me as a gangster or white collar criminal, doesnt bother me. There was excessive bandwagoning on me that mattered; When someone makes a case and others bandwagon without adding anything really, that is much much worse than a group of people deciding on a pressure vote to make a lurker post. At the point when i was going to be lynched, it was a perfectly acceptable decision for me to get a vote running on someone else who wasnt really adding anything, townie or not. I havent had much time to make cases as i keep spending a lot of my time having to defend again and again, but i have posted a few scummy post analysis. Its true that mafia are ***generally*** people who dont like to draw attention to themselves, and until i try to meta that and "hide the poop in plain sight" that point is moot. I stand by my quote from earlier, and it appears here that you are taking it out of context to make your case seem better. right now in your +/- system i would give myself around ++++/-----. Pluses being most active player by far, posting filter based analysis, and maintaining town meta from previous games (sure it can be WIFOM'ed, but the truth is that is much harder to do as scum). minuses are from not having much content other than defense and defensive analysis, being cynical in responses, on the wrong side of a townie lynch. The other side was still a townie (me) lynch, but seeing as he actually flipped, yeah.
In light of recent posts, I'm briefly revisiting the conclusion of my analysis of the lynching of Oneplus
Of the 6 people that voted for him: - Four stated no scum related reason for voting oneplus (Daymor, Crossfire, Nova, Therapist) - One is not sure whether he is scum or bad town (Lazermonkey) - One is more suspicious of him than of Nova (BlueyD)
Of these 6, one was confirmed town (Crossfire), and two I have leaning town (Daymor and BlueyD).
Including TheRavensName (who vote switched off Oneplus 13 minutes before the deadline), that leaves 4 others who voted for him leading to his lynch, and I believe likely includes at least 2 mafia. These 4 are: Lazer, Nova, Therapist and TheRavensName.
I note that Solohan (who is generating heat at the moment for his mostly lurkerish behaviour) was never part of the vote on Oneplus - he voted for Nova and kept it on him.
To Daymor: History of my read on Nova, since you asked. - Leaning town at the start for reasons already mentioned - A few of his actions near the vote seemed dumb or scummy: 6 posts in a row, lack of urgency as macheji was about to be lynched, telling the docs what to do at night. Nova gained a few scumpoints there. - I also thought the Lazer case was good at that point, but I figured it would be really dumb for Lazer and Nova to band together so close if both are scum. Realized this line of thought wasn’t very useful because it could be WIFOMed. - I then decided it was better to see if this was partnership or leader-follower instead of WIFOMing. I found out Nova had his own opinions and Lazer was the parasite here. This means Nova is not to be faulted for the connection between those 2, Lazer is.
So at the moment, I would again say Nova is more likely to be town than scum. Nova is not a lynch target for me at the moment. Lazer, though, is very suspicious.
---
Lorant has dodged my question of why he thought Pure was scum, other than ‘gut feeling’. I want that question answered. I really, really want that question answered.
On April 18 2012 22:36 Pure-SC2 wrote: Three people have now posted suspicions on Solohan.
Solohan, what do you have to say towards the suspicions against you?
Well, the biggest complaint seems to be that I don't post enough, which I definitely understand. Unfortunately, with the way this game is laid out, I don't really have a chance to get in on the action when everyone else is online. I live in California, with the majority of players being in Europe. That puts almost everyone at least 5 or 6 hours ahead of me (if not more; I'm not terribly good with what time zones are where), meaning that most people are posting and getting really active while I'm asleep or at work. I occasionally have the opportunity to post from work, like now, but it's not guaranteed that I have that opportunity everyday. I've been trying to post when I get home from work and give as much analysis as I can, but I can't help it if people don't feel that's active enough.
That said, I did find at least thing weird, which is Daymor's accusation of me in this post:
On April 18 2012 11:53 Daymor wrote: We have a serious lurker problem. The following people need to considerably step up their level of contributions and help town out;
Lurking particularly badly - Macheji - Solohan50
Lurking but posting enough to get by - Therapist - TheRavensName
Contributing, but want more - BlueyD - Lorant
Note my position in relation to Therapist and TheRavensName on this list. While, numerically, I may not have as many posts as Therapist and TheRavensName, both have posted very little in the way of analysis (Therapist moreso than Raven). I feel like my analysis has contributed more than either of these players. Despite that, I'm said to be lurking particularly badly, while both of them are posting enough to get by. I don't really know what to think of this yet, but I definitely find it weird.
I won't be home for another 5 hours or so, but I'll look through some more filters and see if I can come up with some more analysis tonight.
First of, I realise that my play have been quite suspicious up untill this point. I don't really know how to response to this tho. Some of you may not like that I blame my inexperience, but it does play a factor in here. This is in fact my first game ever of forum mafia. As for my voteswitch on oneplus, after Pure's post about Nova I was overwhelmed. I thought there was a very big chance of Nova being scum at that point. But I really liked his defense and he had been contributing as oposed to oneplus. At the same time oneplus never failed to amaze me with loads of scummy posts. I still wasn't quite sure whether he was a bad town or actually scum and at that point where I voteswitched, I was basically fliping a coin in order in order to decide which one I would go for. I also didn't like the way everyone seemed to bandwagon Nova so easy, althought admittedly I was one of thoose who voted for in the beginning.
Now as for my own scumreads, here we go:
Macheji - started the game out as a lurker, has a couple of posts which doesn't contribute at all(which doesn't tell to much because it was just a few hours into the game). Then he doesn't say anything for a long time. Obviously this was due to his computer, as a don't really think you would lurk so hardcore that you are basically minutes from being replaced. He then puts his vote on Nova, which doesn't have an impact at all as it made the vote go from 6-3 to 6-4. His resoning behind this vote was that he didn't like the way Nova pressured with his votes in the early game, found in this post:+ Show Spoiler +
On April 17 2012 09:46 Macheji wrote: Fine, i'll post my reasons for the vote. Didn't really want to because the night is comming and the last time i accused somebody at the start of the night i got killed. Here is what i wrote earlier but wanted to keep it to myself until the end of the night I'll catch up on everything and start making cases. I voted for Terra because in my opionion he seems to be trying to hard. The vote/unvote thing bothered me from the start. The matter of fact is that in the beggining it had a positive effect, but in time that kind of posts only start turning people against eachother. I noticed that at a point almost everybody was accusing eachother for various reasons and the conversation went nowhere. More than this people started forming small groups. And i find this a very unhealthy behavior town-wise. In my opinion this was all caused by Nova_Terra. I don't know if it was on purpose or not, but the effect was negative nonetheless. More than this, i saw a post in wich he said ( correct me if i'm wrong here, i went thru everything kinda fast ), that in the last game he got killed for beeing to silent as a mafia. Now his behavior is not closer to normal, but it's the exact same opposite. I think he got mafia again and he tries to act compl different expecting a tottaly different reaction from the people. From what i've noticed, he is not really scum-hunting, he is not thinking on building a case and going after someone that he really belives is mafia, but rather he goes after everybody managing to only create dubt against everybody. Now, that was the reasoning behind my vote. But now that i've read your case-post i am alot more sure of my vote. If i don't die tonight, i am voting for him again.
Some strange things are found in this post such as: Now, that was the reasoning behind my vote. But now that i've read your case-post i am alot more sure of my vote. If i don't die tonight, i am voting for him again. Not sure what to think about this. "if I don't die tonight" could be a possible scumslip. And the fact that he was so willing to vote against Nova again seems strange, why would you decide who to vote for now, when it is almost 72h before next lynch?
Another pearl I found in this post was this Small line: More than this, i saw a post in wich he said ( correct me if i'm wrong here, i went thru everything kinda fast ), that in the last game he got killed for beeing to silent as a mafia.
Very instresting post. Nova even himself claimed that he is spamming alot as mafia, which is easily confirmed if you check his post history. I guess It's possible that he actually was going through everything very fast and missed this. But another possibility is that this post was a way of trying to spread false rumors about Nova with the possibilty of falling back by saying: "Oh, I must have missread that".
Not to long ago he posted a long post about most in this game. This post was good in the way that it did show his opinions on several persons. However, it was more of a summary than anything else and didn't add much to the discussion. Also I think his logic was flawed for in some ways, for example giving Therapist (++) only for saying he didn't want to misslynch. And I'm not just saying that cuz I'm mad that I got (----) : ).
As you may have noticed I have been refering to Nova in alot of cases. Say what you want about him, he does create some good discussions.
As for other honorobel mentions: Therapist - lurking like a boss atm. Said he liked long posts, but is yet to post one himself. Only playing safe cards, could be because he his scum, could be because he is scared townie.
Nova - I'm leaing towards town in him. I think he is contributing alot. I also liked Fourfaces/Durants post on that the kill on Crossfire somewhat proves that Nova is innocent because Cross unsure of whether Nova was scum or townie.
On April 19 2012 05:24 Nova_Terra wrote: Hmm. welcome back lazer. Please try to prepare a case/ analysis on somebody other than solo, if you can. it would be most appreciated.
Is it just me or do people seem to show up when the cases start getting mentioned?
I noticed that Lazer and Nova were picking on solo for presumably being scummy, especially his first post. Since Nova didn't want to divulge what was so scummy about him and Lazer didn't have anything concrete either there was this vacuum. Along comes Pure-SC2 and attempts to make this vacuum look like an interesting point raised regarding solohan, and then he says it's odd that he didn't read the rules which imo wrongfully discredits solohan, it could even make a suspicion on solohan seem reasonable. I noted this in my journal in the following manner:
I do think it's odd that he wouldn't have read the rules (it's clearly stated on the front page). I'd like to see him add more to his very short filter.
@Solohan - how do you respond to Nova reading your first post to be scummy?
*******End of excerpt
I noticed right away that solohan has in fact read the OP and that the question he was asking + Show Spoiler +
can we vote for a nolynch?
, which apparently was the core of everyones suspicion a.k.a. vacuum on him, was totally justified at that time. Pure-SC2 failed to realize this and caused some confusion that could've amounted in solo getting lynched. We later got to see how easy it can happen with oneplus. Nova actually did point out some stuff but that's pretty weak so there was a reason he didn't post it right away and made so much fuss about it for dramatic effect.
I continued in my journal:
(...) Not sure what to make of this, will see how he reacts.
This is all very easy discussion for scum to mimic but it has it's mysterious intricacies. Will have to reread this part after someone flips; I'll also pay attention to their habit to post to check consistency (not sure about Daymor's use of his native language either)
*******End of excerpt
So here we are and we got to know Pure-SC2 as a posting machine, very attentive and accurate about everything everybody has ever written. Well I got to know Pure-SC2 as a derp who insisted that solohan lacked attention and failed to read the OP, when these traits actually applied to himself, first. The shift for me was great, the rupture in consistency was huge.
And he wants others to do the same which is even worse. If you're townie and you're not too scared of taking a hit to spare the blues that's your decision. But don't get others involved. Daymor followed his example and published his whole google doc.
My gut feeling basically is that I'm scared. I'm pretty scared that Pure-SC2 is playing good scum while Nova is bad scum. If so, they tried to control the thread from the very beginning and establish Nova as leader and it would've worked because Nova could've posted Pure's observation/analysis making him look capable. Pure's case on Nova was trivial and he would've switched his vote but oneplus already had 6 votes and Nova only 4. After Raven switched it would've been way to scummy for Pure to switch too. Now what's happening is that Pure is the capable one and Nova might be covering his back like a dog, grunting at everyone who even considers his strongest town read scummy. I don't know which is worse (hard to counter), this or a leader Nova with Pure's posting. So this is basically what I'm afraid of. Nothing more, nothing less. Irrational .. maybe
But rationally speaking Pure might be doc fishing at this point. He purposefully put everyone in danger by posting in the middle of the night and at the same time he drew the medics attention.
In conjuncture with the Pure/Nova scum constellation take a look at Nova's night testament
On April 18 2012 07:58 Nova_Terra wrote: In case of my death, my top four suspicions in order are 1. Lazer 2. TheRavensName 3. BlueyD/Lorant. My best town read is Pure. I think a Lazer lynch would be the best option if i died tonight.
Hmm.. do you notice anything bizarre? Isn't solohan supposed to be on that list? His super-scummy first post and everything.. remember?
Oh and talking about Nova bulldogging for Pure. Check out how he's on my ass after I say Pure is scummy. He doesn't even care why he just wants to take me apart with the council stuff and whatnot.
Im wondering if the entire purpose of this was to piss me off
FF brings up some good points. i'll go through it tomorrow, but right now i have to ask How the hell did you jump to the conclusion that the reason i was on your ass about the council idea was because you thought pure was scummy? And yeah, i already noted that i forgot about solohan >.> also how am i covering pures back like a dog and grunting at anyone that dares to go against him? once again, Dont make points that describe something in an opinionated manner without at least posting filter to back that up. and linking to my being on your ass for something totally unrelated doesnt count.
However i am happy that you are going after pure. very very interested in what this brings about, and currently i have a more townie read on you than before.
However i am happy that you are going after pure. very very interested in what this brings about, and currently i have a more townie read on you than before.
No, BlueyD was interested and he urged me to back up my arguments against Pure. After I said Pure was scummy to me you didn't care at all and proceeded to 1 on 1 me about the fucking council.
The voting rules on the front page are very clear to me.
4. You may not vote for yourself. You may not vote for anyone dead or outside the game. 5. This game uses Plurality Lynch. Whomever has the most votes at the end of the day is lynched. In the event of a tie, the player who received the most votes first will be lynched. 6. Voting is mandatory. You may NOT abstain.
There is no mention of an option to vote no lynch, so there is not much more to say here. I stated what I believed to be true and I stand by it.
Regarding the night post, I wanted to get my analysis of oneplus's lynching across so that town had as much information to work with as possible. I figured I was a good target for a mafia kill so it made sense to me.
And yes, I wanted people posting. I wanted to get as much info out there as possible for the towns benefit, not to purposefully put everyone in danger like you assumed in your post.
Comparison to his only prior TL Mafia Game (‘Meta’ analysis)
Here is the filter from Macheji’s other previous Mafia game on Team Liquid, Bastard Mafia.
Now given that we are all fairly new and still learning I do not really want to put too much stock into ‘meta’ analysis based on only one past game, but from just having a quick glance at the two I can notice a distinct difference between the two.
Currently in this game Macheji is not really contributing all that much information at all and lurking fairly extensively, however in Bastard Mafia in which his role was a Bodyguard, you can see his is posting more in terms of content in each post. And looking at the timestamps you can see that both games have spanned a similar length of time.
Now onto the more relevant performance in this game
In the early portion of the game it is very challenging to present any real read on Macheji simply because his lack of activity prevents any such analysis from occurring. Upon his return he provides a reason for his absence, don’t have a problem with that.
He states he doesn’t want to post during the night for fear of being killed here;
On April 17 2012 09:46 Macheji wrote: Fine, i'll post my reasons for the vote. Didn't really want to because the night is comming and the last time i accused somebody at the start of the night i got killed.(...)
He contributes his preliminary thoughts anyway, this is his first post of any real substance. He lays his suspicions towards Nova_Terra, which at that point in time was probably the easiest target, I don’t think this means too much at this point in the game as his opinions seemed to support his train of thought. He then declares 72hrs prior to the next lynch;
On April 17 2012 09:46 Macheji wrote: Now, that was the reasoning behind my vote. But now that i've read your case-post i am alot more sure of my vote. If i don't die tonight, i am voting for him again.
Clearly he has a scum read on @Nova_Terra, but being willing to tunnel Nova_Terra before the day even breaks is a bit of a red flag to me. It’s good that he seems to be convinced of his read, but don’t just blindly tunnel someone, provide us with some more information as to why you are making this decision.
A minor grievance, but I do not like this statement either;
On April 18 2012 20:59 Macheji wrote: Oh man, 9 pages in and i have a full paper of notes. Most of them on Nova_Terra and Lazermonkey. I saw an obvious connection between the two of them. Share briefly with Pure-Sc2 , but tbh i find Pure-SC2 very ''town'' atm , not sure what that was about ( ganging on solohan w/o any evidence ) . I have to decide if i should make a list with everybody or just post my scum conclusion and post a case vs 1,2 people. What do you guys prefer ?
If you are town, surely you don’t need to be told what to contribute to discussion, everything is all laid out in the thread. Post any thoughts and analysis that you believe will assist the town in winning the game. The statement gives me an impression of ‘I want to do enough to be ok’.
Macheji’s big post about his reads
On April 18 2012 22:43 Macheji wrote: I'm dizzy after the first 10 pages so i'll stop here for the moment. I may come back later today to finish and make a new post. So far. + = town - = mafia Daymor (+/--)-> In the start he favored both no-lynching / Lynching me. At the moment , lynching me gave no information. So he was ''divided'' between getting no info from a no-lynch to lynching the guy whos death would bring the less info(-). Also, from what i've seen, i've got the impresion he is a very guilable, easily to be impressed person that changes mind-stances often(+/-). Lorant ( +/--- )-> Gave a good very good town advice in the start ( the journal thing ) +. Proved to be a smurf of fourface that ''likes to do crazy things so town does not think he is mafia'' -> Creates this thing called The Coucil of Four ( crazy thing -- )to rise against Nova_Terra but dosn't really accuse him of anything, this seems a bit dubious , like a false conflict ( - ) Crossfire ( ++ )-> I know now he's dead, bear with me ( did not know the name of the guy that got killed last night when i made this so that i don't get subjective)... Made a post regarding the fact that people , especially blues will have no info if there is a no-lynch , this was a giveaway for me ( ++ ) NovaTerra (++/--------)> oh man, oh man... .... Ok here we go. Accuses Solohan of appology post -> makes appology post moments later ( --- ). Made alot of accusations w/o arguments(-)(ex vs solohan, therapist ). Spamming, atleast 6 posts in the first 7 pages saying the same thing(-). From page 8, 18:25, when he is beeing accused he start to seem very troubled, he makes post-after-post, very twitchy. He goes crazy about him beeing the most active person. He gets even more crazy when someone mentions him beeing in the same team with Lazer.At first it seemed like an ok reaction, the guy was mad because he was wrongfully accused, but why get even more stirred up when beeing named a teammate of Lazer, that's something kinda specific to be generally mad against. Also, when Oneplus attack him he tells him he is digging his own grave, he was so sure about it, like he had some power the rest of us do not. Also when Oneplus attacks him in one post he says he is not impressed... he's not impressed of what ? When someone innocent is beeing accused of something, does it ever occure to him to say that he is not impressed with the case against him ? I am acc thinking of those real-life gangsters or white-collar criminals that laugh on the tv when they are beeing accused. ( -- ) . In another post he is accusing bandwaggoning when people started voting for him, but he had no problem with people bandwaggoning when there were like 4 voting me for beeing inactive or for 4 more to vote for oneplus when he got killed. ( - ) . He is by far the most frequent poster ( ++ ), but his posts lack any real information ( already rated this ) . Also it's clear in his mind that mafias are people that generaly don't want attention, so he may meta this and try to hide the poop in plain sight. He even says at a point that '' you do not vote for an active thought player for info'' when someone suggested his lynch in order to get information. Lazermonkey ( ---- ) > Agrees with Nova_Terra on solahan beeing scummy even tho there were 0 arguments Why ? ( - ) Calls therapist scum again w/o evidence Votes for me -> Side with N_T vs oneplus -> is accused on multiple front of mafiateam with N_T-> says he is conviced oneplus is town -> Votes N_T without revealing to much -> In the end votes oneplus ( --- ) Therapist ++ > I only see i noted that he gave me the impression that he really does not want a misslynch ( ++ ) TheRavensname ( +/- ) > a bit wierd that at page 6 he accuses Nova_Terra of beeing to lynch happy ( +/-). 1 hour later he votes me and Nova_Terra + Lazermonkey ( the ''double'' at that point) soon fallow. Pure-SC2 ( +++/-- ) At a moment he accused Solahan for beeing a scum, fallowing N_T and LM, when there were no arguments or evidence. THe only thing i noticed about Solahan until that post was that he was a bot noobish at this game. Later on he goes after oneplus because he said N_T and LM are scummy without any arguments/evidence. ( -- ) But, to be honest Pure-SC2 has made alot of valuable posts since then. I found them clear, argumented, transparent and it seemed to me like he added alot to the game ( +++ ) . Still the mark of doubt remains.
In this post I find a few things that concern me when I read through, apart from the inconsistency in terms of how he is dishing out his reads, the main one I note is Therapist, who he gives a town/leaning town read to because he stated he didn’t want to mislynch. Personally I don’t think this statement is any kind of tell. Stating you don’t want to mislynch isn’t difficult and cannot be proven false either, it’s a no risk statement in my opinion.
His two strongest scum reads are Lazermonkey and Nova_Terra, while not terribly surprising as both have copped their fair amount of suspicion. It almost seems like the easy way out to me, there has been a substantial amount posted in regards to why both are found to be suspicious.
As such the whole post really seems like more of a summary of the current position rather than anything that is distinctly his, with the exception of a few parts in his review of Nova_Terra.
Why omit BlueyD and Solohan50 from the analysis?
I am not sure whether this means anything or not, I wouldn’t mind some opinions on this matter. But it certainly does seem a bit strange to me, he posts a few notes on every player except these two and oneplus who was the victim of the first lynch.
Alarm Bells
On April 18 2012 22:43 Macheji wrote: NovaTerra (++/--------)> (...)He goes crazy about him beeing the most active person. He gets even more crazy when someone mentions him beeing in the same team with Lazer.At first it seemed like an ok reaction, the guy was mad because he was wrongfully accused, (...)
On April 18 2012 22:43 Macheji wrote: NovaTerra (++/--------)> (...) Also when Oneplus attacks him in one post he says he is not impressed... he's not impressed of what ? When someone innocent is beeing accused of something, does it ever occure to him to say that he is not impressed with the case against him ? (...)
So in his case against Nova_Terra, not once but twice does he briefly mention Nova_Terra’s innocence or that fact he is being wrongfully accused. The only people who know of Nova_Terra’s innocence are Mafia & Nova_Terra. It could possibly mean nothing, but the fact that he is essentially calling his strongest scum read ‘innocent’ is quite alarming.
While I appreciate that he has stepped up and provided with some of his thoughts, most are in a heavily summarised manner and I do not feel they add too much insight except maybe his post on Nova_Terra.
Summary
I admit, this was a fairly hard case to build due largely to not having much content with which to work.I would be happy to lynch Macheji based off this information as between not contributing and the alarm bells in regards to his case against Nova_Terra I feel comfortable enough sticking with it.
Please express your thoughts on this case, I know it may be a little thin
Raven, you asked me to respond, so I shall do so for my fellow USA-ian.
1. If you read my posts closely, I never said that I was for a No Lynch; people seem to assume I did, but I did not say I wanted a No Lynch. My first post says that lynching a lurker isn't a bad idea, but I would prefer if people talked and we lynched someone we had more info on. I was trying to avoid a situation like what happened with OnePlus. My second post was simply a quick message trying to get people to stop talking about No Lynch, or to at least find out if it was an option before we devoted all of Day 1 to it (Note the part "If it's not, then it's a moot point). I reiterate this thought in the third post, saying that all of the talk about No Lynches were clogging up the thread, and the topic would especially be clogging up the thread if No Lynches aren't allowed (which they weren't).
2. As I said in an earlier post, I can't always post while I'm at work, and I was lucky that I was able to get my vote post in while I was there. The deadline for voting is 4pm for me, which is when I get out of work, followed by an hour drive home. I'm not always able to post at work, which is why the majority of my posts happen around this time. You're welcome to think my timing is nefarious if you'd like though.
3. At this point, I haven't decided if my case for Nova is strong enough to post. A lot has happened since the vote and Nova has toned down his spam, as well as provided some defense that I still need to read though. Honestly, by the time I got through Lorant's filter for my last post and tried to figure out what sort of insanity was going on there, there was no way I could read through Nova's 7 pages of posts.
On to my reads:
Pure-SC2 - I'm leaning Town on Pure. His posts have all been on-topic and well thought out. He is by far the biggest asset we have, with consistent analysis and activity. Frankly, if Pure is mafia, I think we're completely fucked this game.
Lorant - His play continues to baffle me, with his vote-change from Nova to Pure-SC2 being the latest thing. His posts don't seem to accomplish much besides wreak chaos and make reads that much harder. Between the council thing, this latest vote-switch, the FourFace stuff, and also bringing back all the talk of No Lynch, I'm leaning towards scum.
TheRavensName - I find it very strange that he brings up a case against me that involves the No Lynch at roughly the same time Lorant does. While it could be a coincidence, I believe this might be a concerted effort to derail the thread and start talking about No Lynch some more. It would be an effective way to divert attention, as well as bog down the thread with more meaningless discussion. I'm leaning towards scum.
Nova - After reading through his massive filter (Side note - 7 pages? Really?), I'm willing to rescind my scum vote for now. While he was ridiculously spammy on Day 1, he has since toned it down a bit since Day 1 and has been causing less havoc in the thread. He also incited a lot of discussion on Day 1, some of which was good and some of which was bad. At this point, unless he does something else scummy, I'm leaning towards that idea that he's a Townie with ADD; one who can't follow the most basic rule in the Newbie Mafia Guide, which says "You don't need to post every thought you have". His activity level is too high for all but the ballsiest mafia players, and I think he's done a decent job of reigning in the spam and giving decent analysis.
Lazer - As others have noted, I find it strange that Lazer voted for Oneplus even though Lazer said he believe Oneplus was Townie. The way he "teamed" up with Nova, while contributing very little to the case against me, as well as the fact that he's been very lurky since the end of Day 1 is also strange. By themselves, I wouldn't be too worried about it. His actions to the end of Day 1 were weird, but not overly alarming. What I find weird is his return post, which has been his only real post since the end of Day 1. He claims that he has been acting scummy but it is due to being inexperienced, which I can buy, since this is a newbie game. After that though, his only reads are on Mecheji, Therapist, and Nova, and only one of those reads is really significant. The only real analysis post is towards Mecheji. The problem is, the analysis doesn't make much sense to me. Here's what Lazer posted:
On April 19 2012 04:59 Lazermonkey wrote: Now as for my own scumreads, here we go:
Macheji - started the game out as a lurker, has a couple of posts which doesn't contribute at all(which doesn't tell to much because it was just a few hours into the game). Then he doesn't say anything for a long time. Obviously this was due to his computer, as a don't really think you would lurk so hardcore that you are basically minutes from being replaced. He then puts his vote on Nova, which doesn't have an impact at all as it made the vote go from 6-3 to 6-4. His resoning behind this vote was that he didn't like the way Nova pressured with his votes in the early game, found in this post:+ Show Spoiler +
On April 17 2012 09:46 Macheji wrote: Fine, i'll post my reasons for the vote. Didn't really want to because the night is comming and the last time i accused somebody at the start of the night i got killed. Here is what i wrote earlier but wanted to keep it to myself until the end of the night I'll catch up on everything and start making cases. I voted for Terra because in my opionion he seems to be trying to hard. The vote/unvote thing bothered me from the start. The matter of fact is that in the beggining it had a positive effect, but in time that kind of posts only start turning people against eachother. I noticed that at a point almost everybody was accusing eachother for various reasons and the conversation went nowhere. More than this people started forming small groups. And i find this a very unhealthy behavior town-wise. In my opinion this was all caused by Nova_Terra. I don't know if it was on purpose or not, but the effect was negative nonetheless. More than this, i saw a post in wich he said ( correct me if i'm wrong here, i went thru everything kinda fast ), that in the last game he got killed for beeing to silent as a mafia. Now his behavior is not closer to normal, but it's the exact same opposite. I think he got mafia again and he tries to act compl different expecting a tottaly different reaction from the people. From what i've noticed, he is not really scum-hunting, he is not thinking on building a case and going after someone that he really belives is mafia, but rather he goes after everybody managing to only create dubt against everybody. Now, that was the reasoning behind my vote. But now that i've read your case-post i am alot more sure of my vote. If i don't die tonight, i am voting for him again.
Some strange things are found in this post such as: Now, that was the reasoning behind my vote. But now that i've read your case-post i am alot more sure of my vote. If i don't die tonight, i am voting for him again. Not sure what to think about this. "if I don't die tonight" could be a possible scumslip. And the fact that he was so willing to vote against Nova again seems strange, why would you decide who to vote for now, when it is almost 72h before next lynch?
Another pearl I found in this post was this Small line: More than this, i saw a post in wich he said ( correct me if i'm wrong here, i went thru everything kinda fast ), that in the last game he got killed for beeing to silent as a mafia.
Very instresting post. Nova even himself claimed that he is spamming alot as mafia, which is easily confirmed if you check his post history. I guess It's possible that he actually was going through everything very fast and missed this. But another possibility is that this post was a way of trying to spread false rumors about Nova with the possibilty of falling back by saying: "Oh, I must have missread that".
I don't really think that "If I don't die tonight" is a scumslip; I think it's pretty clear he's posting in case he gets hit by the mafia. Also, on the second part, I would assume that Mecheji just misread. I would be willing to give the second claim more credence if there was more analysis, but that's all there is. All in all, it seems like a really weak case, especially for it being the only case that Lazer has posted since Day 1.
I believe his attack on Mecheji might be an OMGUS reaction to being accused by Mecheji. Lazer also specifically states he is not doing it because of Mecheji's attack, but I feel that debating whether that's true or not is WIFOM. I believe that Lazer may have chosen to reply to Mecheji's post in an attempt to defend himself, while allowing him to not have to go head-to-head with Pure-SC2, who is also forming a scumread on Lazer.
I didn't have a laptop problem when i was in Bastard mafia. I was going on the forums every 2 hours and such so i was able to make clearer cases ( I made a clear case vs the SK and he was killed the next day, too bad he killed me during the night ). This time arround i missed for about 48 hours and had to read alot in a small ammount of time. That's the differance between the 2 games. Once i get on time with everything you'll see the same behavior. I omitted solohan and BlueyD because my case revolved on the first 10 pages and i just didn't find anything noteworthy ( Solohan's name does come up in my statements against some people, but his posts were just vague and uninteresting , un-noteworthy in my opinion ) WTH Alarm Bell, that's the most ridiculous thing ever... I am either getting close and you're trying to stop me or your statemt is plain stupid. First paragraph is taken out of context... I was pressuming the first sentance to be wrong, so that i put an accent on the second one, to show you that there are two presuptions of innocence (lower chances ). The second parahraph again, it was an imagination exercise, like when you do a math problem and you take the absurd presuption... in case he is innocent , would he act this way. Never did i tell he is innocent... You alarm bell, the backbone to you argumentation, is a taken-out-of-context dressed in another clothes silliness.
So far you have 2 points the Mafia guide states as scum reads -> Guilable vote-changing happy behavior, taking things out of context...
All your arguments are silly, do you even belive in them...
The fear of getting killed... yes, i was afraid to post during night because that's what i've done the last time, and i was right, and i was killed by the SK... Somebody, can't remember who asked me for the info so i've done it. Then, i asked how would you guys prefer me to do the post. So that i can make it as easy it can be to be read/understood by the rest of the people. So it can offer the best and most clear information. Yeah, and my scum reads are mostly N_T and Lazer. I still have some other people in mind but they don't come close to this 2... Does it matter other people think of them aswell... I have brought new things to the table and i dare say my case was really transparent. N_T says i don't give quotes, i tought of doing that but tbh at the ammount of posts he done that would have made my case a fucking book ( considering i make a post about 10 pages )... I will make another one for the next 10 and then i'll be on ''real-time'' 100%.
And also, when i was unable to posts, i saw there were some posts accusing me of lurking. But there was no real danger for me... First time there were 4 guys voting for me, they changed , Oneplus townie died, then people starting talking again, and now you are arguing with eachother , going after solohan and what not... once in a while someone says macheji is lurking, but no big deal... I could have kept on not posting ( this time without a reason ) for quite some time until you ran out of people to flame and lynch for i don't know what bullshit reason ( like your post and oneplus's lynch). What reason would I have to come out of my what seemed a safespot into the what seems a battlefield , only to make a post that gives some info on about 6 people and brings new stuff to the lynch Nova_Terra - Lazermonkey ideea ?
Now, I find your post against me wrong on every level ( except my behavior that really was different from last game, but i think i made the reason clear enough already ) . The things taken out of context jump up the most. Assuptions Assuptions and blown out of proportion quotes... You even tried to find wrong when i was trying to be altruistic and asked the other people how would they prefer i make my cases so that they can be as transparent and easy to understand as possible. Now, you are either extremly paranoid, guillable, naive person , or you are scum ( as defined by 3 points in the mafia guide )
Also , Daymor, I just noticed , who did you vote for ? Did everybody just missed this ? There was a misstype by the Game Host , Daymor voted for me->Nova_Terra->Oneplus ( to prevent vote swithcing )
If you are town, I think you will continue to be active which is definitly something we need considering the level of lurkers we have in this game.
At this point I think you have contributed enough to spare you from the Day 1 lynch. As I said I haven't had a chance to really look through the last few pages thoroughly.
I still have my suspicions, but for now I might consolidate the vote on oneplus. To prevent any last minute switching.
##Unvote: Nova_Terra ##Vote: oneplus
After oneplus the townie gets lynched he makes a post about The people that voted for Oneplus , naming BlueyD, Nova_Terra, Lazermonkey, Crossfire, even Theraven that switched... He does not inclued himself.+ Show Spoiler +
Before I head to bed I will throw up a quick post from my notes regarding the lynch on Oneplus, bare in mind that these are my notes, hopefully they make sense to you guys as well. NOTE: This has been copied directly from Google Docs, so the formatting might be a bit ugly, I will try clean it up but it's late and I want to go to bed.
ONEPLUS (Townie) - excuse for poor english - explanation of odds on random lynching - wants a town leader - argument with both @Nova & @Lazer - kind of OMGUS reaction to @Nova - thinks that maybe Lazer is bussing Nova - says Lazer changes his vote too sudden
** Initial post included an excuse for poor english, I really don’t like people posting excuses, especially in their opening posts, sets a bad precedent. But this excuse isn’t really related that much to gameplay so it is slightly more acceptable. Especially considering it appears english is not his primary language. ** Wants a town leader, not a huge fan of that idea, I would prefer everyone to work on their own and contribute to the towns goals as a group rather than relying on 1 figurehead to guide us around like sheep. ** Odds on random lynching, not terribly informative, anyone can do this basic math. ** Argues with @Lazer and @Nova who at that point I had scummy reads on, he does make some sense here and there but it can be hard to read and decipher at times. Forces a reaction out of both @Nova and @Lazer, claiming OMGUS for their pressure votes on him. But @oneplus had pressure votes on him from other players too, yet he only singled out @Nova and @Lazer. Thinks there is a connection between the two. But if you look @Lazer, you can see he has a town read on @Nova (prior to @Pure-SC2’s case), but i don’t know how invested into an argument you would get to protect a modest at best town read, but again that’s WIFOM. ** Thinks that @Lazer might be bussing @Nova, could be possible. States that @Lazer changed his vote too suddenly.
PEOPLE THAT VOTED FOR ONEPLUS
BlueyD ** From his posting history he seems to have a town read on @Nova, he has stated a few times that some of @Nova’s actions push him towards town, ie not worrying about his own safety and accusations and pressure on @Solohan. ** His lynch switch doesn’t raise significant eyebrows either. His vote would have been wasted had he not switched. If he is town he would try protect his town read (@Nova), if mafia almost anything can happen, although I imagine bussing your teammates at this stage would be retarded.
Crossfire99 ** Uses the phrase ‘to save @Nova’ rather than to lynch @oneplus. To me that signals that he is leaning town on @Nova, or is at least on the same page as @Nova. @Pure-SC2 thinks they could be scum teammates, definitely a possibility. I basically came to the same conclusion in regards to the lynch so can’t be too critical. ** Should make a point of pressuring him for his point of view, he doesn’t really seem to put his ‘money’ anywhere, almost looks like he will take whatever comes his way. I certainly expect more from him if he is to remove any scum suspicions.
Lazermonkey ** Seems to buddy up to @Nova, maybe he feels @Nova’s activity and pressure voting (which he states he likes) make him a townie read? This is confirmed in his post about switching his vote to Nova. @Pure-SC2 posted a good case on @Nova, which apparently was all the convincing @Lazer needed to switch. Although it’s a rather meek acceptance, slightly defends @Nova while still voting for him. Then finally says something along the lines of ‘if @Nova is townie gotta look @Pure-SC2’, counter-wagon maybe? ** Was convinced @oneplus was bad town (I think during their spat), yet is happy to vote for a bad town as opposed to anyone else. Kind of OMGUS.
Nova_Terra ** Seems to be rushing some posts, I would think that is more a sign of townie-ness being unafraid to post your thoughts immediately without fear. I know when I was Mafia I was careful to review and preview my posts before submitting them. No reason to think other players wouldn’t do the same. ** Didn’t sway from his town read on @oneplus. Only switched his vote as an effort to save himself which makes sense. I like how he sticked with his read on @oneplus, It’s perfectly acceptable to vote for someone else you have a read on to save yourself. Noone is going to lie down and accept a lynch when they don’t need too. He is also clearly more active than @oneplus, so it isn’t a bad idea to keep him around. There should be more than enough posts to analyse his play on. ** After my early suspicions of @Nova, I think he did a decent job of defending himself, he threw in a few posts which were a bit un-necessary (rude, put-downs etc). He was reasonably aggressive on his defense, a few people came in to post messages of support so either a lot of people have town reads on him, or his scum team and a few sheep came in to save him. ** Says he has a town read on @Pure-SC2, I think for almost anyone in the thread he is the most obvious town read. Would be very shocked if he were to flip Mafia at this point, however it is still early. @Nova was probably the easiest target due to his excessive posting. I wouldn’t think someone as Mafia would give a town read on someone who posted a good case on them, but that is simply WIFOM and nothing more at this stage.
Therapist ** Softly defends @Nova, saying that it’s a bandwagon that is forming. There were a reasonble number of people around at the time, if it was truely an easy bandwagon, why did more people not jump on? Several have town reads on @Nova, or at least state as much (@Crossfire & @BlueyD, @Lazer initially also, prior to @Pure-SC2’s case), his soft defense would suggest that he has either a town read on @Nova or is possibly a teammate? ** Doesn’t see a reason to bandwagon @Nova, but is willing to basically bandwagon @oneplus. Seems slightly hypocritical, but it could simply be because he has a town read on @Nova. Need more information.
Although his vote did not end on oneplus I will also include my noted on TheRavensName, because he switched late
TheRavensName ** Seems really indecisive, not contributing much in terms of post quantity or quality ** Early on states he has no issue with @Pure-SC2’s case, then @Pure-SC2’s post about the scumslip convinces him, then when he changes his vote to @Nova he isn’t sure about Pure-SC2 again. ** Throws his suspicions around without really providing any information why, doesn’t provide any reads either. ** Last minute of the oneplus lynch he switches off, this change of vote made absolutely no difference at all to the outcome, did it with 15mins to spare. To me that seems to indicate him trying to distance himself from the lynch target. Does he maybe know something we don’t? Possible, but certainly need more information and activity to determine whether this is the case.
CONCLUSION
I know this is a lot of information to digest and I am not sure how much of it people will agree or disagree with. In case I can't get online prior to the deadline tomorrow here is the link.
Also included in this mess if you have a look at my notes about @Nova_Terra it states in their why I was willing to take my vote off him to an extent. I will also briefly explain again here why I changed.
Nova_Terra has by far posted the most content in the thread so far, that's easy to see. At the time of the vote, I didn't have the time to thoroughly analyse roughly pages 10-14 prior to the lynch deadline. I skimmed through and noticed Nova_Terra had been incredibly active during this time so i chose to spare him so i could read through his posts to see what I thought of him. As you can see from my notes he is slowly erasing my earlier doubts about him. I am not yet willing to 'confirm him town' but he is trending that way.
Then 0 posts during the night, then post about lurkers ( an already super used post )...
Very good post by Daymor. I am in full agreement with many of the points. even if he has a laptop problem, meta changes are concerning. Good catch on his scumslips too. One of the most concerning things to me is how he seems to feel the need to try to stay safe. Its as if he is worried to post, which is a scum behavior. also asking people what to do is a very scummy behavior, makes you seem eager to please, and this is comparable to when i did that as scum. His defense is pretty bad, saying things are silly and deciding not to defend much. Also its not hard at all to post 1 quote showing my "apology post" after i "accused solohan of an apology post". So therefore Machejis analysis is either pure lazy or trying to show things that arent correct to make a better case.
also i find it interesting that Macheji went from lurking to full on post as soon as he was accused. coincedence is probable, but still something of note.
My scumreads right now are the 3 Ls: Lazer, Lorant, and a Lurker.
See Pure’s case and my own comments on Lazer, this case need not be remade. This is the scum I’m most sure of, and so...
##Vote: Lazermonkey
I’ll concentrate on sniffing out the remaining 2 scum. Here’s a case for you:
---
Lorant’s play is just insane, and apparently that’s his metagame… But it also contradicts itself.
[about Nova and Lazer vs oneplus] (…) he lost respect and became an easy target, mainly due to your lack of responsibility, he regarded you as a leader and broke his trust and tried to rape his self-esteem. That's why I don't want you to be considered a leader anymore.
No alliance, especially not exclusively against you, just a leadership conglomerate.
But then…
(…) Personally I think Pure-Sc2 is scummy (…)
1. About the statement. I meant to troll. There's no reason to hide my true nature now that it's clear I'm FourFace.
Bolded parts for emphasis. Let’s break this down: Leadership shouldn’t be in the hands of Nova the trustbreaker. It should go to a council on which one is himself (the guy who gets us all to post analysis 2 minutes before the end but trolls town with a jokepost himself – also a breach of trust) and one is someone whom he thinks is scummy. We have here a man full of contradictions.
Lorant’s case on Pure is bad, by the way:
- It is usually true that games with ##No Lynch mention the option in the rules, and I don’t think Pure can be faulted for thinking that no mention in the rules = option is not there, even if that was not clear to others. He was right, by the way.
- The nightposting thing I’m not sure of. We didn’t really discuss the advantages and disadvantages of keeping the night mostly silent; we just did it when Lorant suggested it (Pure included, he did hold back a lot of info), and it might have been a bad move after all. In my other games we just posted at night with no fear and there sure was more information going around. This actually might be a part of why some people lurked – didn’t want to post because there was a town agreement not to, but couldn’t be there at dawn so didn’t post much or at all.
- The rest is his gut feeling again, and fear. He’s not making a case saying “this is the most likely scenario”, he’s making a case saying “this is the worst case I can think of.” This is not how people who want to catch scum think.
---
Remains the third L – the Lurker. That would be either Solohan50, Macheji, Therapist or TheRavensName. Hard to tell which, though. I’ll consider Daymor’s case for tonight:
For Daymor, on Macheji: Interesting case. The first 2 posts you point out do seem scummy/bad, 3rd post sounded to me more like “I don’t know how to use my time efficiently” and is mostly newbish.
On the long post: I did note he had a ++ on therapist which seemed weird to me – therapist is a major lurker right now and there’s no particular reason to see him as townie. I also noted he gave a ++ to crossfire and said he didn’t know of the death at the time of writing – that’s dubious, since he sure knew about the death when he wrote “I didn’t know about the death” – so why give us an outdated read instead of a current read on why he was killed? That’s not helpful.
On your “alarm bells”, I liked the first, not the second. Here’s my interpretation of that one:
(...) Also when Oneplus attacks him in one post he says he is not impressed... he's not impressed of what ? When someone innocent is beeing accused of something, does it ever occure to him to say that he is not impressed with the case against him ? (...)
It reads better as “imagine an innocent, would he act like this?”, with the answer likely being “no” in Macheji’s mind. Note that as the guy who dismissed a case with "LOL" last game, I don't agree with macheji's opinion here.
Nova_Terra ... just lol )... Did you even read my post ?
BlueyD did you read my posts ? I think i made myself clear enoguh but it seems you both responded to Daymor's post but not mine .... I am comming now because i have my laptop back... I made a post less than 12 hours ago about various people, and i made a defence post now... So your point is invaild...
Am I really the only one that sees the bullshit Nova_Terra is generally throwing arround ? And i don't really know, maybe is cuz i know i'm town, fact that you guys can't be sure of, but Daymor's post is complete garbage, i practicily nullified every point he made ? But as it seems nobody responded to my post, i'm not even sure anybody read it ( well, atleast L_M and BlueyD )
What do you ( Nova_Terra , BlueyD for the moment, as you are the only guys here ) think of my points on Daymor's accusation, and about how he voted for Oneplus aswell but somehow his vote went under the radar ( also his post on the people that voted for Oneplus that he dosn't include himself in )
Just to be clear, i gave + for what seemed town ( about 5 posts trying to tell people why we shouldn't lynch ,and i don't know, the way he said it made me belive he really ment it ) and - for what seemed scum... I did not note lurking. If you may, add (--) then to the equation. In his case it was subjective, i agree he's a bit of a lurker but we just started the game, and can't really say a person is lurking because he's been inactive for 1 day. In my opinion maybe the so called lurkers are calculated persons that don't want to throw accusations arround creating more chaos than necesary. In my opinion lurking gets alot of -'s the more days poss.
And again, i don't know, Nova_Terra says i made a post now that i am beeing attacked... Even tho this is false ( my first post was the reason i was attacked ). Also, he knows about the post, but it's clear he just browsed it, didn't really look what i had to say ( as i explained my inactivity, choice of posts. Then he says i try to keep myself safe, when again, i posted as soon as i had my laptop, even tho i WAS SAFE by beeing inactive... Just think, how many people wanted to vote me when i was inactive, how many people were talking serious about me, and how many do now, WHY would i expose myself to that.... And after this, he says i try to keep myself safe... please ) . He picked on some random stuff he found as fast as he could and threw them out. This behavior may have something to do with the fact i attacked him in the past, or the fact he's hiding something and i seem to be the guy that goes after him the most.
Now, another thing i notice is that every time i look back i see N_T agreeing with somebody, saying they had a good ideea or repeating what they said. In the start the he's spam was about the lurker/get activity thing, after was pure chaos... 7 pages of posts but nothing really great... I mean, 7 pages ? Really.... Other people brought more to the table with 2 pages... Hell, I think even I brought more, and if i didn't i surely will before not too long.
Examples :
Haha. Very very true.could be a coincedence though. we'll see eventually i guess
FF brings up some good points. i'll go through it tomorrow, but right now i have to ask How the hell did you jump to the conclusion that the reason i was on your ass about the council idea was because you thought pure was scummy? And yeah, i already noted that i forgot about solohan >.> also how am i covering pures back like a dog and grunting at anyone that dares to go against him? once again, Dont make points that describe something in an opinionated manner without at least posting filter to back that up. and linking to my being on your ass for something totally unrelated doesnt count.
However i am happy that you are going after pure. very very interested in what this brings about, and currently i have a more townie read on you than before.
Very good post by Daymor. I am in full agreement with many of the points. even if he has a laptop problem, meta changes are concerning. Good catch on his scumslips too. One of the most concerning things to me is how he seems to feel the need to try to stay safe. Its as if he is worried to post, which is a scum behavior. also asking people what to do is a very scummy behavior, makes you seem eager to please, and this is comparable to when i did that as scum. His defense is pretty bad, saying things are silly and deciding not to defend much. Also its not hard at all to post 1 quote showing my "apology post" after i "accused solohan of an apology post". So therefore Machejis analysis is either pure lazy or trying to show things that arent correct to make a better case.
also i find it interesting that Macheji went from lurking to full on post as soon as he was accused. coincedence is probable, but still something of note.
I want to say right now that pure pretty much said my thoughts right here. These are three out of the 4 players that i find most suspicious right now. I'll be voting immedietely after deadline so you can see where i stand. assuming i live, of course.
Takes credit for saving someone
Pure, note my word choice when i said i urge a medic or jailkeep to think about protecting you. This is not trying to direct them, this is making sure they know what another townie thinks would be smart so they can add that to their thoughts. ofc if they find me scummy then that will probably be ignored. However, just the thought of a likely protection on you could be enough to keep one of our most pro town players safe, and that was a major purpose of this post.
and it appeas that worked. Bye crossfire
... Crossfire was a cop -_- ... IT WORKED... THANK the gods i somehow ( really ? ) saved Pure and a blue cop died -_-
After my big post he says this
right now in your +/- system i would give myself around ++++/-----. Pluses being most active player by far, posting filter based analysis, and maintaining town meta from previous games (sure it can be WIFOM'ed, but the truth is that is much harder to do as scum). minuses are from not having much content other than defense and defensive analysis, being cynical in responses, on the wrong side of a townie lynch. The other side was still a townie (me) lynch, but seeing as he actually flipped, yeah.
... So you agree parts of your posts are dubious... but you give yourself 4+ because you are active, and you act like you did when you were townie in other games, filter based analysis.. Well ok then, filter based + , Active -> But then you say you don't really have alot of contect ( your words ) so active, but BAD ACTIVE, then you say you keep your meta... Mentaining town meta... That can be taken either way, you either do act like this when you are town, or you just got mafia and you said this will be a good argument sometime.. so in reality this is more like meh... In conclusion you agree with most of the bad things I said about you, you say you are active and then you say you don't do much contect ( then why spam the thread ).... Why should i really belive you are town then when you contradict yourself so blatantly..
P.S. I admit i made a mistake at a point ( the thing about N_T beeing inactive when mafia, scratch that point from my case, I have been proven wrong and i'm sorry about it )
@BlueyD ... The thing about Therapist was kinda subjective, his posts just gave me the impresion he is really afraid of a myslynch and he was really trying to find a way to avoid it. The lurker part regarding day1 and on i explained earlier. About crossfire. Ok maybe i wasn't clear enough... When i started the post, i knew somebody was killed, that a blue cop was killed, i knew about the murder, but i did not know the name of the victim... I just did not remember exactly, it's not that i didn't write in the first days, i also didn't read, so i wasn't familiar with the names, so i didn't memorize the name of the victim. I also didn't look while i was making the post because i wanted to go on things in chronological order... After i finished writin, just before posting i looked after the name of the killed person to see if it influences my post in any way... I had a slight satisfaction when i noticed i was right about him... Hope this clears it up for you.
And considering my last posts were ignored I kindly ask of you guys to check my lasts posts. I belive i made a really good case against N_T and i don't want it to get spammed into oblivion. Also can anyone please tell me when is the deadline ?
Yes, i read your defense. i only have time for a quick post for a while. in my recent posts i have not only agreed with people but added things related to them and went over defenses like yours. i suggest YOU read my posts in closer depth if you cannot see that. Once again, the longer i am forced to defend vs stuff like that, the longer i wont be able to post analysis.
Most of your posts are ''quick'' posts... or '' i am leaving for school '' posts. Can you make 1 post with more than 4 sentences ? Or with new arguments ? Or with new insights ? You have posted 0 analysis so far... Or if you posted 1 or 2, it got lost in the sea of spam you made. The biggest problem i had reading through the thread was managing to be able to fallow conversations between your bullshits of ''vote lurker'' , '' a agree '' , '' just quick post '' , '' i agree'' , '' he sounds scummy'', '' oh you attacked me, well you are a scum then '', '' i agree'', 'quick post i gotta go'' , '' quick post i just got home'' , '' quick post i just took a shit and i think X is scum and i agree with Y ''.... If you don't have time to make a post don't do it... You haven't made this kind of post just now, you've done it numerous time... I stay for 20 minutes to write something and then you come read it in 30 seconds, reply with a lame ass post that bassicly says you do not agree while invoking some weak reasons that i have no problem pointing their flaws out... and your excuse is you didn't have time. It seems i had no problem defending against accusations and making a caseafter i studied pathologic surgery for 6+ hours , haven't slept a night, read thru 10 pages of this thread. You accused and accused me of lurking time and time again... but bassicly you have done the same... but on exatasy... What you did was come every 30 minutes, fast read everything , make a 2 sentece post on how you agree, or disagree with something, or post a fuck lurkers post, and gone.
Considering the numerous posts and the fact i acc am starting to get mad with his responses. I am voting for Nova_Terra In short ... for spamming, for not contributing with almost anything, for his reaction when Crossfire died, for sheeping and for all the other reasons in my +/- post and in general for creating chaos and making this thread ''foggy'' . Every 3-4 posts i see a N_T post that helps me in abs no way.
Also, for more details on my decision please refere to my previous posts, mostly on page 21. I find there abs no reason to quote myself and fill the thread space more than necessary. And i ask you to do the same, we have to clean this place up. You guys may have taken it 1 at a time but i'm telling you, It's extreamly hard to read thru it, something is wierd. I catched up on 8 pages of Bastard Mafia today in about the time i finished 2 here. And they are winning the game. We on the other hand have 0 real persons we are actively seeking as a group. Every 2 pages the target changes w/o there beeing a clear conclusion to the discusion.
Lorant - His play continues to baffle me, with his vote-change from Nova to Pure-SC2 being the latest thing
I find it surprising that you find this baffling, considering that the case I posted had Pure-SC2s name on it in the title.
@BlueyD Despite what you think of my case on Pure-SC2 I'd prefer scum agenda analysis over case analysis any day. You made a decent attempt of that saying I tried to give lurkers a town argument to lurk at night .. well maybe I did, that's because I think whatever you want to post at night you should keep to thyself until the last minute.. so everything a player wants to say at night he can do so in a last minute testament or even the day after and it's basically the same amount of info from that player. I didn't really have anything to post at that time as I was busy with my audio mixing and other stuff that seemed more interesting at that time. But I promise to make up for this at the end of night2, considering you don't lynch me for whatever reasons you have to lynch me. But if you do lynch me.. find it in your heart to forgive me for accusing your hero Pure-SC2, ok?
@Daymor - I believe the biggest lurker problem is Therapist, and he seems to be flying along well under the radar at the moment.
My comments on your case against Macheji: - I think if we take him at his word regarding his laptop issues (which true to his word he's posting more now), then it looks pretty similar to his Bastard mafia filter. - Your second point focuses on his contribution in this game so far, and I don't get much from your analysis here. He has a scum read on Nova and sticks with it, and asks a question about what he should post. I agree with you that he shouldn't be asking what to contribute, and I stated that to him pretty soon after he posted, which he subsequently followed so no issue for me there. - His analysis post about his reads was a bit frustrating for me, because it was only based on the first 10 pages and the thread had moved on a lot from that point. The biggest notes I had from this is that he made some factual errors in his review, but felt to me like it came from rushing things and not looking into things properly, rather than scummy. - It looks like you misread the quotes under your Alarm Bells section - do you see that?
@Macheji - My comments to you would be to take a bit more time over your posts, and only state something that you know is true (and can back it up with quotes). There are a few things you've stated so far that are flat out wrong and it really affects your credibility.
I think you've raised some good points regarding Nova, specifically about the agreeable nature of his posts, something Nova himself considered scummy in Solohan's first post.
Also, your mention of him taking credit for "saving" me was interesting to point out. His whole attitude about directing blues and his response to my reading of it didn't satisfy me, and you rightly highlighted his smug response once it was revealed Crossfire was killed.
@Nova - You keep making these veiled threats about how defending yourself is preventing yourself from making longer analysis posts. Well, you keep doing things that raise peoples suspicions of you, so it's your own fault really. And if you genuinely are town, you should be focused on scumhunting anyway and posting your own analysis of your scum reads as a matter of priority!
The fact that you are so focused on your own defence (while holding back on your own analysis) is suspicious in itself.
I've got a lot more to say, but am going to take some time to process a few of the other posts.
A quick note on the Therapist: His only real statements this game was to vote for Oneplus, to say he thinks Nova is bringing out a lot of information, and that he doesn't like the council idea. He hasn't posted a single read on anyone else, nor any analysis.
There is so much confusion, trolling and general chaos in Lorants posts. I had a town leaning read on him prior to the FourFace disclosure, and from there it's just gone weird.
What is the motivation behind his posts? I think he gets his enjoyment from throwing our curve balls and confusion. At the moment I feel we are all some mild amusement for Lorant and he doesn't seem to really care either way.
Could be town, could be scum. I don't know. Definitely a person of suspicion for me, purely due to the chaos.
Did anyone actually check out the play list he linked which meant "I didn't really have anything to post at that time as I was busy with my audio mixing and other stuff that seemed more interesting at that time." ?
I did. It included 5 songs, the original diablo town theme song overlayed with another song (which together sounded terrible by the way), and then 4 other songs, one I recognised from my commodore 64 days. I feel like this is one big troll.
@ Macheji - I am glad to see you are posting, that is promising. I hope you continue to post when you have things that are worth contributing.
For clarification purposes yes I did vote for oneplus on the day one lynch, my reasons are included in that huge post in regards to lynch analysis, mainly in the @Nova_Terra section if you actually read it. But to summarise, I jumped on shortly before the deadline reviewed the thread and noticed Nova_Terra had made a significant number of posts and i did not have the time to review and analyse everything. In comparison oneplus did not make nearly as many posts, so I decided to take my vote off Nova_Terra as I value someone who is actively contributing posts as that helps analysis etc significantly more than someone who doesn't provide much.
@Pure-SC2 - I agree the case is a bit of a stretch, to the extent that it encouraged Macheji to post I am happy. Macheji is not my strongest scum read, nor do I believe the case was strong enough to lead a lynch, so I do plan on ending the day with my vote on someone else.
I think at least a couple hours before the lynch we should try to lock in a solid lynch target. Lazermonkey has been the person I have had the strongest scum read on for the last couple of days. I haven't really had the chance to look at his most recent post, but he is probably the candidate that I would most like to lynch.
@Daymor... I was talking about the list strictly. Yeah i understand your reasoning. And also your post only made me make the defence post, the rest would have came independent of your action as I was preparing a case against N_T anyway. To be honest, now that i think about it your post acc put things in motion because N_T as he always does sheeped your post and back it up.
Also, i really am keeping to what i said. I agree with Pure-SC2 that i said something that proved to be wrong , like i said N_T acted on a mafia game, but i already admited that in a previous post. My credibility may be affected, i do agree, but credibility only aplies if i'll ever make another post w/o a link/quote etc... But as far as you can see my later ones included the such, and are no longer things you have to trust me , but palpable things, that have no connection to me except the fact i've thrown them in discusion.
As i said before, my lack of activity was really due to the laptop. When i'll get the bill, if i'm allowed, i'll even post a picture so you guys can see i really got it in repair. Also if i didn't use quotes/links in some posts that's because i had to do in 1 day what you guys done in 4. I felt i had to say the things i said about N_T as i read him as scum, in the start it really was a bit rushes but as you can observe with every post i get more and more organized ... the reason beeing i am getting a more clearer view.
I would like to note that the fact my first post was only based on the first 10 pages may be an handicap, but that does not make it true. The backbone were N_T and Lazermonkey accusations, and my future posts will probabably still be about this as i feel there is something fishy with them, and i find the first 10 pages to reflect their future behavior perf... Nothing really changed... even more... in the next 22 i found even more arguments for a N_T lynch, and nothing to really change my mind.
On April 19 2012 19:45 Pure-SC2 wrote: Did anyone actually check out the play list he linked which meant "I didn't really have anything to post at that time as I was busy with my audio mixing and other stuff that seemed more interesting at that time." ?
I did. It included 5 songs, the original diablo town theme song overlayed with another song (which together sounded terrible by the way), and then 4 other songs, one I recognised from my commodore 64 days. I feel like this is one big troll.
It takes one to know one. You are trolling me at this point saying my mix which I posted is shit. I also never posted a playlist you derp, you yourself seemed to be motivated enough to go beyond the link to that one song and listen to every song on the profile. I think this is the second time someone says the link was to a playlist. Forcing this response out of me is entirely your fault and your response to my case and scum-agenda hypothesis is horribad. You keep sterilizing everyone's post until it says nothing really indicative of alignment. If you're such a great player and a big asset to us .. why don't we have a clue who to vote for. I don't say you should change the way you do observations, I'm just saying it's not that big of a help to actual scumhunting. We don't need people to make resumes of everyone with a subjective twist to them like saying my mix is shit and I'm a troll. Way to go .. you try to offend me but you still don't know if you should vote for me or not. I hate your species .. the internet-user species that thinks it's ok to insult ones ideas and investments. You also repeated a gazillion times that there's a lot of smoke and mirrors, chaos, enjoyment from throwing our curve balls and confusion around me yahdiyahdiya. Stop trying to be boring and frocing people to not want to read your posts anymore
On April 19 2012 19:45 Pure-SC2 wrote: What is the motivation behind his posts? I think he gets his enjoyment from throwing our curve balls and confusion. At the moment I feel we are all some mild amusement for Lorant and he doesn't seem to really care either way.
Way too easy. A town player seeking constructive analysis would never post such a thing simply to discredit a player who has obviously spent some time and effort reading and making intellectual investments into the game. Now go make a decent analysis about my motives or stfu if you can't respect a player who is trying to figure out the game by looking at scum agenda instead of making endless resumes and derrogatory, subjective bycomments to provoke emotional responses.
I repreat .. Pure-SC2 made me post this and he also made you read this. It's time you start hating him too.
altu.. ce playlist frate, e o medie. Macheji is by far the most leisurely troll. He took the core element that pissed me off the most and repeated it just now. It's not a playlist ffs.
hahahahaha....Yeah i know it's just one song, i love that song, i know all the lyrics to it ), i have it on my stick that i listen to in the car... Dunno if your trolling or not but i had no intention to insult you ... I was just pointing that this topic is stupid and it only clouds the thread... You know... wtf blabla as in let's stop this ridiculous conversation . Ok, comic relief over, let's get back to Live Love Lynch.
You have mentioned a couple of aspects of Pure's play here + Show Spoiler +
On April 18 2012 20:59 Macheji wrote: Oh man, 9 pages in and i have a full paper of notes. Most of them on Nova_Terra and Lazermonkey. I saw an obvious connection between the two of them. Share briefly with Pure-Sc2 , but tbh i find Pure-SC2 very ''town'' atm , not sure what that was about ( ganging on solohan w/o any evidence ) . I have to decide if i should make a list with everybody or just post my scum conclusion and post a case vs 1,2 people. What do you guys prefer ?
On April 18 2012 22:43 Macheji wrote: Pure-SC2 ( +++/-- ) At a moment he accused Solahan for beeing a scum, fallowing N_T and LM, when there were no arguments or evidence. THe only thing i noticed about Solahan until that post was that he was a bot noobish at this game. Later on he goes after oneplus because he said N_T and LM are scummy without any arguments/evidence. ( -- ) But, to be honest Pure-SC2 has made alot of valuable posts since then. I found them clear, argumented, transparent and it seemed to me like he added alot to the game ( +++ ) . Still the mark of doubt remains.
.
Would you say that it's possible that he gets all those pluses with the help of his scumbuddies (resume-ing everything like that does seem a little bit too much for one player)? Which leaves us with the two minuses plus what I've pointed out about the doc fishing. Would you be terribly appalled by a Pure lynch today?
@Lorant - I thought when you linked your mix, it related to all the songs there (which I classed as a play list). Re-reading your original post (based on your recent post) I see you just meant that song. And apologies for my criticism if it offended, I took it as a joke towards us considering you told us you were preparing a statement that you never provided.
For the moment i am kinda set on Nova_Terra... Who knows what the future unfolds. I'm trying and trying to make you guys see he's the best lynch atm... So many clues and arguments... and if even, tho there is a small chance i'm wrong, i'm wrong, we atlest get rid of sheep spammer that added next to nothing in his 7 pages of posts. Just think about it, he made 7 PAGES of posts, out of the 22 we have... So he made 1/3 of the posts here... NOW , DO YOU guys consider that is normal... do you guys consider he gave enough info to justify the usage of 1/3 of the pages here ?
I know, his only excuse is that he has to dodge accusations, but all he says is urging everyone to back up everything with quotes. Would you back off him if he did come up with a reasonable post/analysis/case by the end of the day and go for SC2 instead?
No. It's too late. Again, 1/3 of the posts here are his, and he is also one of the guys that gave the less information. One flower does not make spring. And also in my eyes he by far the best lynch target... Almost text-book
Also, Pure is not the next guy i have in mind to go after anyway. Now, again, who knows what the future unfolds, but at the moment he's just not that up in my scum-hunting priorities... There are just way to many presumptions for me to start accusing him and i don't understand what's this grudge you have on him. There are cleary other people that look alot more scumy than him that you could go after at the moment. If you can't be sure of anything ( and i dare say we can't really be sure of anything) it's best to use ocam's razor ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor ).
I'm not as fixed at him as you might think. I'm basically willing to compromise between SC2, Nova, Therapist and solohan because I think they're the prime suspects that could've come up with shooting Crossfire to incriminate me.
Btw Daymors ALARM BELLS make for poor dramatic effect with no substance to back it up.
On April 18 2012 22:43 Macheji wrote: NovaTerra (++/--------)> (...)He goes crazy about him beeing the most active person. He gets even more crazy when someone mentions him beeing in the same team with Lazer.At first it seemed like an ok reaction, the guy was mad because he was wrongfully accused, (...)
On April 18 2012 22:43 Macheji wrote: NovaTerra (++/--------)> (...) Also when Oneplus attacks him in one post he says he is not impressed... he's not impressed of what ? When someone innocent is beeing accused of something, does it ever occure to him to say that he is not impressed with the case against him ? (...)
So in his case against Nova_Terra, not once but twice does he briefly mention Nova_Terra’s innocence or that fact he is being wrongfully accused. The only people who know of Nova_Terra’s innocence are Mafia & Nova_Terra. It could possibly mean nothing, but the fact that he is essentially calling his strongest scum read ‘innocent’ is quite alarming.
While I appreciate that he has stepped up and provided with some of his thoughts, most are in a heavily summarised manner and I do not feel they add too much insight except maybe his post on Nova_Terra.
When someone innocent is beeing accused of something, does it ever occure to him to say that he is not impressed with the case against him ? - you didn't say someone innocet = nova.. you say the opposite. I don't kow why Damor would take it out of the context like that and decorate it with some bells.
Anyway. How do you feel about Therapist, BlueyD, TheRavensName and Lazermonkey? Their level of contribution in particular.
@Lorants Nova/Pure post - you seem to link together Nova and Pure in an almost conspiracy-like way. While I agree it's is possible that both players could be mafia there is a huge possibilty that both are scum, both being scum is a completly different matter. Tbh after looking back at the day 1 lynch I'm quite convinced they cannot be the scumpair. Look here for example: + Show Spoiler +
On April 17 2012 06:32 Pure-SC2 wrote: Some interesting developments this evening.
In the space of 12 hours, Nova's tone has changed completely. From aggressive defense (when he was only aware oneplus suspected him), to a long period of silence and then muted responses to my initial case, to a reasonably patient defense that seemed reasonable but didn't really cover off or satisfy my case against him, but definitely won some people over.
I still have him pegged as scum, especially after his classic scum slip. Here is his quote:
At this point, can i ask all non me voters and me voters to switch over to either Crossfire or Solohan50? otherwise, im dead for sure and its damn hard to read anhing from a bunch of 1 votes.
- What he meant to say was "switch over to either oneplus or Solohan50", but for some reason said Crossfire instead. Why would he have said Crossfire? Because Crossfire is his scum ally, and he was in discussions with Crossfire at the time he posted. This is the most classic case of a scum slip possible.
Now how did Nova respond to this? Did he say a correction straight away? Nope. He didn't say a thing until TheRavensName commented on it, saying it was strange. Nova's response:
Yep it looks hella weird. probably because my mood changed from pissed to hopeful in a space of like 30 seconds
That is a damning as it gets. Crossfire was around at this time as well, because he was posting in the thread also.
I stand by my case against Nova, and I add what I've posted above to it. In addition to this, in my initial case I commented that I believed his accomplises were Lazermonkey and Crossfire. I'm even more convinced of this now.
Look at Lazermonkeys filter around the time I made my case against Nova and linked him to Lazer. Lazer vote flips in an absolutely classic attempt to distance himself from his scum partner. They then go into a back and forth about it, further attempting to distance themselves, but what do you know - they both have their votes on oneplus. As does Crossfire. When it looked safe to bandwagon oneplus, they did it.
I want to go into Lazer's posts in more detail, and I will if I get the chance tomorrow. But the filter is there for you to read it, and I encourage you to.
I've had a brief read through Crossfire's filter and the last bunch of posts are an absolute mess. He seems the least scummy of the three, but Nova's scum slip convinced me I was on the right track.
oneplus is town. I'm convinced of it, and you've bandwagoned onto it and played right into the mafia's hand.
So Pure is posting and saying that Nova is STILL one of his prime scum-suspects. And this is 1 1/2h from lynch time where Nova is one vote from getting lynched, assuming that person changed his vote from oneplus to Nova. Obviously he still had the possibilty to change his own vote in order to save Nova, but that would seem REALLY fishy since he even posted a long post about why he disliked Nova.
Yeah Lorant i already stated that about Daymor in my post from page21 @ 13:44
WTH Alarm Bell, that's the most ridiculous thing ever... I am either getting close and you're trying to stop me or your statemt is plain stupid. First paragraph is taken out of context... I was pressuming the first sentance to be wrong, so that i put an accent on the second one, to show you that there are two presuptions of innocence (lower chances ). The second parahraph again, it was an imagination exercise, like when you do a math problem and you take the absurd presuption... in case he is innocent , would he act this way. Never did i tell he is innocent... You alarm bell, the backbone to you argumentation, is a taken-out-of-context dressed in another clothes silliness.
So far you have 2 points the Mafia guide states as scum reads -> Guilable vote-changing happy behavior, taking things out of context...
All your arguments are silly, do you even belive in them...
... He even admited the case was weak
@Pure-SC2 - I agree the case is a bit of a stretch, to the extent that it encouraged Macheji to post I am happy. Macheji is not my strongest scum read, nor do I believe the case was strong enough to lead a lynch, so I do plan on ending the day with my vote on someone else.
That dosn't mean this will be forgotten. If i'll ever have a reason to doubt Daymor in the future, i will, if nobody else will, bring this up in a real case.
On April 18 2012 07:59 Pure-SC2 wrote: I'm not sure what is going to happen as we flip into the next day, so I'm going get my reads out there so everyone is clear on my stance and they can do what they want with it.
My case against Nova: I still believe in it, but he has done a good job defending himself once he changed his approach, and has enough support that he's not likely to get lynched at this point. I will be highlighting any further suspicious behaviour from Nova as I see it. Qudos to Nova for adjusting his approach.
Putting my case against Nova aside for now....
The case against Lazermonkey
I won't be as detailed with this as I was in my case against Nova. However I will state the main reasons why I find him suspicious.
Soft support of Nova with no stated reasoning - Agrees with Nova's stance on Solohan without stating any reasoning. This in itself isn't condemning, but was what initially had me noting him as suspicious.
Lazermonkey's vote flip following my case against Nova (which included a link to him): - This ia stereotypical scum behaviour. Once a link to Nova was raised (regardless of whether Nova is scum or town), Lazer flipped on him very quickly, going from supporting him, to voting for him to be lynched. - During the post he made where he switched vote to Nova, he stated he thought Nova's early game was good - then why is he voting for him? - He made sure to state the possibility that I might be scum, even though he liked my case against Nova. He is positioning himself to be able to play this out either way, which I find suspicious. - What is his motivation for this statement?
Atm I think the most interesting lynch would in fact be Nova. Not because he is confirmed scum in any way, but because of the possible information we could be given. If he flips town, we really need to think about Pure intention with his post.
- If you are looking for scum like behaviour, this is it. It's not some random read based on gut feel, this is based on how he reacted when the pressure of being linked to someone who had a case made against them.
Leads a lynch vote against oneplus, even after stating he thinks he is a townie - Some quotes from Lazer about oneplus:
I wasn't even pushing the lynch against him. I even said that I only thought he was a bad townie
- He then leads the vote against oneplus anyway. - Also makes a connection between oneplus and Lorant as "imo both him and durant is acting really strange" (Durant actually meaning Lorant). This was because Lorant offered to help with oneplus's english, which actually seemed townie to me.
Other than a comment to the admins, his filter has remained completely silent since voting for oneplus.
Lazermonkey has moved to number 1 on my scumlist. Nova is still leaning strong scum for me, and would be my second choice to lynch.
BlueyD added the following additional analysis on Lazermonkey: + Show Spoiler +
Pure’s case on Lazer is very good in my opinion. Just want to add something on the whole Nova-Lazer connection:
- Nova is the first of the Nova-Lazer pair to agree to lurker lynch - Nova is the first to call Solo scummy - Nova has his vote on macheji when Lazer puts his on the same player - Nova asks Solohan to find his own suspicious behavior, Lazer says Solo should respond - When oneplus calls them out, Lazer is the one who first turns on the other.
These aren’t really buddies. This is Lazer trying to ride on Nova’s wave, and he gets off the wave right as Nova gets suspicious in some people’s eyes. This is not something we can really hold against Nova in my opinion. This is certainly something that makes Lazer suspicious.
Lazermonkey has made one posting contribution since leading the lynch vote on Oneplus, I've included this here:
On April 19 2012 04:59 Lazermonkey wrote: Sorry for inactive for some time now.
First of, I realise that my play have been quite suspicious up untill this point. I don't really know how to response to this tho. Some of you may not like that I blame my inexperience, but it does play a factor in here. This is in fact my first game ever of forum mafia. As for my voteswitch on oneplus, after Pure's post about Nova I was overwhelmed. I thought there was a very big chance of Nova being scum at that point. But I really liked his defense and he had been contributing as oposed to oneplus. At the same time oneplus never failed to amaze me with loads of scummy posts. I still wasn't quite sure whether he was a bad town or actually scum and at that point where I voteswitched, I was basically fliping a coin in order in order to decide which one I would go for. I also didn't like the way everyone seemed to bandwagon Nova so easy, althought admittedly I was one of thoose who voted for in the beginning.
Now as for my own scumreads, here we go:
Macheji - started the game out as a lurker, has a couple of posts which doesn't contribute at all(which doesn't tell to much because it was just a few hours into the game). Then he doesn't say anything for a long time. Obviously this was due to his computer, as a don't really think you would lurk so hardcore that you are basically minutes from being replaced. He then puts his vote on Nova, which doesn't have an impact at all as it made the vote go from 6-3 to 6-4. His resoning behind this vote was that he didn't like the way Nova pressured with his votes in the early game, found in this post:+ Show Spoiler +
On April 17 2012 09:46 Macheji wrote: Fine, i'll post my reasons for the vote. Didn't really want to because the night is comming and the last time i accused somebody at the start of the night i got killed. Here is what i wrote earlier but wanted to keep it to myself until the end of the night I'll catch up on everything and start making cases. I voted for Terra because in my opionion he seems to be trying to hard. The vote/unvote thing bothered me from the start. The matter of fact is that in the beggining it had a positive effect, but in time that kind of posts only start turning people against eachother. I noticed that at a point almost everybody was accusing eachother for various reasons and the conversation went nowhere. More than this people started forming small groups. And i find this a very unhealthy behavior town-wise. In my opinion this was all caused by Nova_Terra. I don't know if it was on purpose or not, but the effect was negative nonetheless. More than this, i saw a post in wich he said ( correct me if i'm wrong here, i went thru everything kinda fast ), that in the last game he got killed for beeing to silent as a mafia. Now his behavior is not closer to normal, but it's the exact same opposite. I think he got mafia again and he tries to act compl different expecting a tottaly different reaction from the people. From what i've noticed, he is not really scum-hunting, he is not thinking on building a case and going after someone that he really belives is mafia, but rather he goes after everybody managing to only create dubt against everybody. Now, that was the reasoning behind my vote. But now that i've read your case-post i am alot more sure of my vote. If i don't die tonight, i am voting for him again.
Some strange things are found in this post such as: Now, that was the reasoning behind my vote. But now that i've read your case-post i am alot more sure of my vote. If i don't die tonight, i am voting for him again. Not sure what to think about this. "if I don't die tonight" could be a possible scumslip. And the fact that he was so willing to vote against Nova again seems strange, why would you decide who to vote for now, when it is almost 72h before next lynch?
Another pearl I found in this post was this Small line: More than this, i saw a post in wich he said ( correct me if i'm wrong here, i went thru everything kinda fast ), that in the last game he got killed for beeing to silent as a mafia.
Very instresting post. Nova even himself claimed that he is spamming alot as mafia, which is easily confirmed if you check his post history. I guess It's possible that he actually was going through everything very fast and missed this. But another possibility is that this post was a way of trying to spread false rumors about Nova with the possibilty of falling back by saying: "Oh, I must have missread that".
Not to long ago he posted a long post about most in this game. This post was good in the way that it did show his opinions on several persons. However, it was more of a summary than anything else and didn't add much to the discussion. Also I think his logic was flawed for in some ways, for example giving Therapist (++) only for saying he didn't want to misslynch. And I'm not just saying that cuz I'm mad that I got (----) : ).
As you may have noticed I have been refering to Nova in alot of cases. Say what you want about him, he does create some good discussions.
As for other honorobel mentions: Therapist - lurking like a boss atm. Said he liked long posts, but is yet to post one himself. Only playing safe cards, could be because he his scum, could be because he is scared townie.
Nova - I'm leaing towards town in him. I think he is contributing alot. I also liked Fourfaces/Durants post on that the kill on Crossfire somewhat proves that Nova is innocent because Cross unsure of whether Nova was scum or townie.
The following is my take on his post here: - Apologises for inactivity - Confesses that his play has been suspicious, and blames it on inexperience. - Didn't like the way everyone bandwagon'd Nova even though he did it himself * These points are essentially his response to all the suspicion against him at this stage, and I don't believe they go near addressing those suspicions against him.
Provides his scumreads: - Mostly focused on Macheji, and how he doesnt like Macheji's case against Nova. Does quote the point where Macheji was wrong about Nova's previous - Highlights Therapists lurky behaviour (something I very much agree with) - States he is leaning town on Nova, though I don't get his statement where he says that Lorants post on the Crossfire kill somewhat proves Nova is innocent. I believe this is a miss-read, as Lorant was saying that he believed the mafia led kill on Crossfire was done in part because Crossfire potentially provided a subtle confirmation that one of the Mafia (Nova in this instance) was town - which is the opposite of what Lazer thought it meant. * He references Nova many times in this post.
There is a chance that he is just terrible town, who panicked when he got linked with Nova and reacted to it, then inadvertently led a lynch on someone he considered town before disappearing due to the heat he was under.
I have made note of Therapists lurky behaviour earlier today, he is flying way under the radar, so I do agree with Lazers comments on him.
But, in terms of my scum reads to date, he rates highest and I feel that in lynching Lazer, we'd be lynching based on a solid set of reasoning - which seems logical to me.
I will not do that. It will not put my N_T case in the background. I already said for the moment i want N_T lynched and that's what i'm going for. I really do think it's for the best in every possible outcome. I do have some suspicions , i have even stated some and the people responded, it sparked conversations. I do not want to go deeper on some people without beeing atlest somewhat sure they are scum and i also do not want to divide the players into 2 different factions. For the moment i consider i said and done enough and will fallow up with trying to get a N_T lynch. This does not mean that if i notice something really scummy i'll keep it to myself, ofc not, but i'll just be carefull with the information. People throw stupid case points way to much and switch from one player to another to fast in my opinion. Most of the cases led nowhere because people hurried to make them w/o really beliving in them , hence the reason most of them got abandoned and forgotten. This only leads to people getting lynched over a post that looks better than others and some heat of the moment-bandwagon. I made my claim, my case, i reinforced and reinforced it and i'm going on with it. Anyway , don't worry, i'll post every tought i have before the night is over so i'm sure that if i die i'll atlest be able to share and get out as much information as i can
See, that's exactly what i'm talking about Pure-SC2 , that's what we should do... dig into someone and pile up the evidence... In the end they all either fit, or crumble under an absurdity. The thing is I have a similar theory on Lazermonkey and at a moment i tought to go after him. I had a hard time deciding but i tought that N_T seems a bit more scummy, and that per general he is making this game harder for us. He has no reason to still be here and i'm sorry i couldn't be active the first days to be able to protect oneplus wich i didn't find really scummy, but i tought had serious communication problems, and to be able to attack N_T more, as the voting was so close maybe I could have made a differance. But what's done is done.
Btw, third time i ask ,can someone tell me when the deadline is ?
Or maybe, all it would do is tunnel one townie, me, and then we would end up screwed because we would have nothing else other than 1 person tunnelled. and dead.
Confesses that his play has been suspicious, and blames it on inexperience.
Stop it, just stop. He confesses that his play has been suspicious ??! NO! He says he doesn't quite know how to defend against the allegations. Jesus ..
leave me a bit of time. My case is being worked on. -try to focus on some other analysis on some other players to. or check peoples motivations. Why do you think that we need to focus the evidence on 1 person Macheji? never do that. its scummy to try to limit the lynch down to 1 person.
On April 19 2012 23:00 Nova_Terra wrote: leave me a bit of time. My case is being worked on. -try to focus on some other analysis on some other players to. or check peoples motivations. Why do you think that we need to focus the evidence on 1 person Macheji? never do that. its scummy to try to limit the lynch down to 1 person.
Do you think it is wise to urge Machji to focus on analyzing other players and saying he is scummy for trying to limit the lynch down to 1 person... when you are that person? Or even begging for time to post your case that is "being worked on".. by whom? I hope not you because that would mean you are town.. and a second mislynch would be imminent.
I mean that i am working on a case. And yes, its scummy to try to limit a lynch to 1 person. especially when that person is town, and knows it. Therefore, i will try to get us back into the right direction AKA off of tunneling 1 person, me.
I'm at work, so I have to be brief. I made a case for Lazer last night, and it appears that I'm not the only one who is suspicious of him. I notice both Pure and BlueyD have made good cases about him as well, which only bolsters my confidence. Because of this, I'm going to vote for Lazer.
Heres what happened last game. Last game, he got called on for being way to aggressive and made these big hard to understand posts. So, he came into this game saying that he was going to change it up.
Well, what has happened this time around. 1. Hes been lurking/not posting much at all 2. He keeps insisting that we should get rid of a lurker because they're a big problem 3. His meta is totally different. not just in that hes not as aggressive; His posts dont really have ANY analysis of his own, and he hasnt been pressured at all. This is NOT an acceptable meta change.
Initial question for BlueyD: If you were/are having a "Lurkers must die" stance, Why did you have so much of a problem with Macheji possibly getting modkilled? You have to say that he was lurking and posting nothing useful in the beginning. If you still want a lurker lynch after day 1, why would that have been such a big deal? you also mention that we would be 5-3 if we mislynch. 4-3 isnt really any different as its LYLO.
This game, BlueyD and Therapist are the ultimate "Slip-by-ers." I think BlueyD even more so.
On April 15 2012 00:33 BlueyD wrote: Do your own analysis, and if you think you have a better case than what's being discussed then POST IT.
Here goes. In the beginning of the game, BlueyD does standard play. telling town how to do things. we all do this, thats okay.
On April 15 2012 13:12 BlueyD wrote: On Nova's voting behavior: Nova played in my previous 2 games so he saw what happened there: First wave of D1 votes came in late, we had very little time to do post-voting analysis, and the resulting situation was chaotic. The intention here is probably just to try and put on 'real' pressure on lurkers earlier so the latter parts of the day is cleaner. A bit spammy but not a scummy move.
---
To oneplus: Just 2 questions aimed at you to show you why 1. saying no-lynch is bad, and 2. having a leader is very bad.
1. How do we pressure scum D1 if we agree to no-lynch? 2. What if the ‘town leader’ who makes the decisions for you is actually scum?
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era was very active last game, though more in terms of quantity than in terms of quality. Haven’t seen him post since the start of this game yet, though, so my first vote goes to him.
##Vote:era
Now its time to begin looking at one of the most common things in blueyD's filter. soft defense. From now on, i'll bold all the soft defense in his filter. There is a good amount of Buddying going on.
On April 16 2012 10:26 BlueyD wrote: I wanna see more from Macheji and oneplus. Oneplus hasn’t replied to me, so: ##Vote: oneplus
We lost too much time and space arguing about lynch vs no-lynch already. We have to lynch, and that’s it. Enough about policy, now let’s look at people.
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Specifically, the people who sided for a no-lynch, or 'not against'.
On therapist: His stance seems to me like an overreaction to last game, but at least there was a developed thought process behind it. Needs to let go of policy discussion and contribute on analyzing people now, though. On oneplus: Asked for a no-lynch in his one and only post, and he’s inactive as well... Can’t read more into him until he posts again. On Solohan: Was already enquiring about the possibility of a no-lynch before he knew his role, so I’m inclined to say he actually thinks no-lynch is a move a town should consider seriously, which makes him... bad.
To clarify, I would prefer to No Lynch if that is an available option, (…)
Now that’s more interesting. This guy’s opinion managed to go from “lurker lynch” to “no-lynch ok” to “no-lynch preferable”. That’s the wrong direction for a townie entirely.
I find this post a bit funny, as it starts off with BlueyD saying that we need to forget about all of the discussions with no-lynches. then he bases his entire post on said no-lynch discussion. This seemed to me like a move to throw a bit of suspicion on a couple people, and if they defended their opinion he could just say no more discussion on no-lynch. So this post is pretty much a post that makes him look contributing, allows him to seem as if hes analyzing, and doesnt really say anothing other than Therapist-post more oneplus-null read Solohan-bad Daymor-wrong idea. Just casting suspicion without really saying anything (and contradicting himself from beginning of post).
On April 17 2012 02:39 BlueyD wrote: On oneplus: I’m still a bit suspicious. First post was bad and I expected an idiot, but then oneplus shows himself capable of at least some analysis afterwards – did he get help? I still don’t get why Nova and Lazer insisting on a lynch is scummy at all - I note that I did it as well and I’m not being targeted, so it looked a bit like a case of tunnel vision to me - and after that he mostly falls back on a “what the other guys said is what I was thinking but I couldn’t express it (not actual quote)” line for the rest of his case, and we don’t know if that’s true.
Might be his poor English preventing him from explaining by himself earlier, but I would have liked him to try. Right now we don’t know what he was really thinking when he started pushing. The second language excuse could be entirely true, or it could mostly be convenient.
Still he’s active and not particularly scummy, so I’ll take my vote off of him. ##Unvote
--- On Nova_Terra : To me he looks like a guy who’s not worrying at all about his own safety, which is more of a town element than a scum element.
- I don’t think we can read anything from “Okay, thank god, not mafia :D”. Guy has been scum 2/3 times. Unnecessary but not inconsistent with being town.
- Calling Solo scummy with no explanation: Sounds more like a careless townie move than a scum move to me. Scum are paranoid about getting caught and make cases carefully. I think it was stupid to expect Solo to accuse himself and I also think Nova’s case was weak, but it reads more like bad town than scum to me.
- Voting behavior: Spammy, but not scummy. His meta can be described as “hyperactive” as both scum and town so he really doesn’t need that voting stuff to help him look active. Done with no consideration of the fact that this might make him suspect.
Nova knows how to not be a target (see both games as scum where he lasted to the end), so why isn’t he doing it this time? It could simply be that he’s scum and he’s failing really, really hard this time… or it could be that he’s town and scumhunting, not surviving, is his #1 priority. Not convinced by the case on him.
---
##Vote: TheRavensName
Lurker lynch, in the absence of a really good case. Macheji is less active but he doesn’t seem to be here at all... He might be modkilled/replaced. By contrast, TheRavensName has showed up at different times of the day, but only has a bunch of short posts with zero analysis to show for it.
More soft defense. I think BlueyD realizes that the way to make townie-Nova not suspect someone is to say that hes not scummy.
Nova said: As soon as i saw Macheji post, i immediately assumed he was voting. then when i realized he wasnt, i stratee getting more woreied, which my other posts refect.
1. Macheji hadn’t voted, surely you saw that, so I can only imagine your post means “I thought he’d vote really soon.” 2.
I'll read the chat and make a vote, if i have time maybe i'll also try to make a case agaist someone if i see fit.
4 minutes to read the thread and vote, and he was considering maybe making a case? The guy had no idea that the lynch was (we thought) so close. “I’ll vote really soon” was obviously not in his list of priorities, and I can't see how you would think it was. Let's just ask him: To macheji: When did you think the lynch was before you read “vote now!” in the thread?
3. Back to Nova, whose more worried posts share one particularity: They both happen after what we thought was the deadline, when votes are typically not counted anymore.
That’s not a convincing reason to me at all. Sounds a bit scummy to me.
On Lazer and Nova: Suspicious of both at this point, probably at LEAST one scum between the two. Not sold on both being scum though, I think there’s a good possibility of scum + fool buddy here – I say we look to see if 1 the 2 was trying to buddy up with the other before the connection was pointed out, and lynch that one first. Town don’t try to buddy up because they don’t want to fall on a scum. Scum know their buddy is town.
I wanted to read both filters and compare but I gave up for the moment, didn’t have this much time this afternoon. STOP SPAMMING NOVA. You have 6 pages of posts already… -_-
On Daymor: On the good side, he’s contributing, but I’m not a big fan of how he changed his stance on both lynch vs no-lynch and Nova vs oneplus, though he did have reasons that don’t seem too far-fetched both times. I’m going to say cautiously leaning town for now, but if I die you guys have to watch for more flip-flops as I’m doing now and see if they mean anything.
To Lorant:Council is stupid or scummy, I don’t see the point in it, I don’t see the point in even talking about it besides wasting space. It can’t make people more logical than now, it can only make them more sheepish. You need to tell us why you feel Pure is scummy, by the way. ‘Gut feeling’ won’t do.
A lot of good stuff in Pure’s and Daymor’s posts already, so I tried to go where they didn’t.
Gotta go right after the flip if I want to catch the next bus back home, will see if I can analyze some more later tonight.
The part that needs the most note here is how BlueyD throws suspicion on 4 people in one post. Says that Lazer or I is scum, but doesnt post anything related to who. If he had died here, all we would have is two people that BlueyD thought were scummy and 1 was mafia. Next, he notes Daymor again for flip flop behavior, and then notes lorant for a stupid or scummy council idea and, as FF puts it, bulldogs for Pure. BlueyD still hasnt posted any original analysis that isnt contradicting. just some suspicion throwing overviews, setting him up for an easy town lynch later.
On April 18 2012 14:10 BlueyD wrote: Pure’s case on Lazer is very good in my opinion. Just want to add something on the whole Nova-Lazer connection:
- Nova is the first of the Nova-Lazer pair to agree to lurker lynch - Nova is the first to call Solo scummy - Nova has his vote on macheji when Lazer puts his on the same player - Nova asks Solohan to find his own suspicious behavior, Lazer says Solo should respond - When oneplus calls them out, Lazer is the one who first turns on the other.
These aren’t really buddies. This is Lazer trying to ride on Nova’s wave, and he gets off the wave right as Nova gets suspicious in some people’s eyes. This is not something we can really hold against Nova in my opinion. This is certainly something that makes Lazer suspicious.
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Just… Wow, Lorant…After you made a big deal about Nova “betraying the trust” of oneplus and being unfit as leader and trying to take the aforementioned leadership for a 4 man council handpicked by you, you post a joke end-of-night post. I don’t know what to make of this. Looks a bit scummy to me, but on the other hand, that post is such a joke… It’s too easy. You even bring up the stupid council-of-4 again after people have attacked you for it.
Please stop fooling around and play the game. Defend yourself.
1. I’ll ask you to explain why you left us nothing (not even a quick list of reads) in case of your death, and I’ll ask you what your current scumreads are.
2. Also, in case it got buried, I’ll say it again: I’d also like you to explain why you flagged Pure_SC2 as scum. I mean, reasons other than ‘your gut’.
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To Daynor: That’s an interesting suggestion. We do have a lurker problem, but I think your solution is too radical unless we can get a really good case on a lurker. I remind you, that if we mislynch we’re at 5vs3 (MYLO) tomorrow, and with mandatory lynching MYLO is essentially the same as LYLO.
I think we should concentrate on getting the most scummy person now that we have a lot of info out. I also do think we should start making cases on our less active players. I will do that tomorrow, for now I have to sleep.
BlueyD jumps on the Pure vs Lazer bandwagon, which was set up well by his previous post. no problem for him because of it. Then he notes that i am probably not an accomplice, which kind of makes me feel good as *someone* doesnt feel that i am Lazers accomplice. BlueyD Knows how i play from the previous games. He knows that if he defends me somewhat, i will be much less suspicious of him, because of my ego. Then BlueyD grunts more at Lorant, telling him to get away from Pure. I think that he is trying to set up for a different possible lynch here. Next post is just a response to Daymor And finally,
On April 19 2012 15:04 BlueyD wrote: My scumreads right now are the 3 Ls: Lazer, Lorant, and a Lurker.
See Pure’s case and my own comments on Lazer, this case need not be remade. This is the scum I’m most sure of, and so...
##Vote: Lazermonkey
I’ll concentrate on sniffing out the remaining 2 scum. Here’s a case for you:
---
Lorant’s play is just insane, and apparently that’s his metagame… But it also contradicts itself.
[about Nova and Lazer vs oneplus] (…) he lost respect and became an easy target, mainly due to your lack of responsibility, he regarded you as a leader and broke his trust and tried to rape his self-esteem. That's why I don't want you to be considered a leader anymore.
1. About the statement. I meant to troll. There's no reason to hide my true nature now that it's clear I'm FourFace.
Bolded parts for emphasis. Let’s break this down: Leadership shouldn’t be in the hands of Nova the trustbreaker. It should go to a council on which one is himself (the guy who gets us all to post analysis 2 minutes before the end but trolls town with a jokepost himself – also a breach of trust) and one is someone whom he thinks is scummy. We have here a man full of contradictions.
Lorant’s case on Pure is bad, by the way:
- It is usually true that games with ##No Lynch mention the option in the rules, and I don’t think Pure can be faulted for thinking that no mention in the rules = option is not there, even if that was not clear to others. He was right, by the way.
- The nightposting thing I’m not sure of. We didn’t really discuss the advantages and disadvantages of keeping the night mostly silent; we just did it when Lorant suggested it (Pure included, he did hold back a lot of info), and it might have been a bad move after all. In my other games we just posted at night with no fear and there sure was more information going around. This actually might be a part of why some people lurked – didn’t want to post because there was a town agreement not to, but couldn’t be there at dawn so didn’t post much or at all.
- The rest is his gut feeling again, and fear. He’s not making a case saying “this is the most likely scenario”, he’s making a case saying “this is the worst case I can think of.” This is not how people who want to catch scum think.
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Remains the third L – the Lurker. That would be either Solohan50, Macheji, Therapist or TheRavensName. Hard to tell which, though. I’ll consider Daymor’s case for tonight:
For Daymor, on Macheji: Interesting case. The first 2 posts you point out do seem scummy/bad, 3rd post sounded to me more like “I don’t know how to use my time efficiently” and is mostly newbish.
On the long post: I did note he had a ++ on therapist which seemed weird to me – therapist is a major lurker right now and there’s no particular reason to see him as townie. I also noted he gave a ++ to crossfire and said he didn’t know of the death at the time of writing – that’s dubious, since he sure knew about the death when he wrote “I didn’t know about the death” – so why give us an outdated read instead of a current read on why he was killed? That’s not helpful.
On your “alarm bells”, I liked the first, not the second. Here’s my interpretation of that one:
(...) Also when Oneplus attacks him in one post he says he is not impressed... he's not impressed of what ? When someone innocent is beeing accused of something, does it ever occure to him to say that he is not impressed with the case against him ? (...)
It reads better as “imagine an innocent, would he act like this?”, with the answer likely being “no” in Macheji’s mind. Note that as the guy who dismissed a case with "LOL" last game, I don't agree with macheji's opinion here.
Lazer, Lorant, and a Lurker. more like Easy, protect ally, and Easy. He doesnt add anything to lazer as Pure said it all, apparently. The only thing i consider original analysis in his filter is this part on Lorant. Although it is based on him having insane and stupid ideas (which are prevalent in most of FF's games) , and more growling at Lorant for not backing up his case on BlueyD's master, Pure, who coincedentally hasnt been mentioned or given a good read on by BlueyD the entire game. And the last bit, Lurker. Nothing to say here. He thinks its a good idea to maybe lynch a lurker in a situation which could either make us lose in LYLO or get us into LYLO. So, TL; DR: BlueyDs post lack analysis that is original. In fact, in all of the minor analysis he's done, all of it seems to be spurred by something/someone else. He sets town up to lynch different people, and casts suspicion on many while soft defending those who will think highly of them for it. He has a brief contradiction early on, and huge meta difference from last game. And seems to want to follow pure who he hasnt posted anything on to the grave. Also pretty inactive. In newbie games, three types of scum are prevalent: Lurker, Semi-Lurking question giver/agreeer, and Controller. BlueyD is the Semi Lurker. so ##Unvote ##Vote: BlueyD
And finally,
On April 19 2012 23:44 Solohan50 wrote: I'm at work, so I have to be brief. I made a case for Lazer last night, and it appears that I'm not the only one who is suspicious of him. I notice both Pure and BlueyD have made good cases about him as well, which only bolsters my confidence. Because of this, I'm going to vote for Lazer.
##Vote: Lazermonkey
First of all i was the first to note suspicions of lazer and back them up, seems like everyone forgot Solohan, you are so close. So so close. you seem to have noticed it but thought about it wrong. Pure made a case, BlueyD said its great and didnt add to it, and voted for the easy townie. This bolsters your confidence? They're going for the easy townie.
Then right before the night post you state: 1. Lazer 2. TheRavensName 3. BlueyD/Lorant. You say a lazer lynch would be the best option if you died during the night.
Then at the start of this day you voted Solohan.
Now you make a case and switch to BlueyD.
So, what happened to your suspicions of Lazer (your previous number 1) and Solohan (who you've been on since his first post)? Especially when a vote for Lazer is already well established?
Why are you now more suspicious of BlueyD than you are of Lazer?
Therapist at the moment is the big lurker problem. He remains a complete unknown and has offered no reads other than a soft defence of Nova and a lynch vote on oneplus. His only other contribution is saying he doesn't like the council idea.
I'm not sure what we do with this right now. What does everyone think?
Well, i had a hard time believing that Lazer was that bad of scum if he was. also, the fact that so many people agreed with him being hella scummy etc lead me to believe that it was an easy town lynch. he had been set up by people for some time to be thought of as scummy. Solohan is still scummy. not as much as BlueyD for me however.
On April 20 2012 00:40 Pure-SC2 wrote: @Nova - Your suspicions are all over the place.
Solohan then Lazer.
Then right before the night post you state: 1. Lazer 2. TheRavensName 3. BlueyD/Lorant. You say a lazer lynch would be the best option if you died during the night.
Then at the start of this day you voted Solohan.
Now you make a case and switch to BlueyD.
So, what happened to your suspicions of Lazer (your previous number 1) and Solohan (who you've been on since his first post)? Especially when a vote for Lazer is already well established?
Why are you now more suspicious of BlueyD than you are of Lazer?
I suspect him because he behaved like scum, which is something several people (including yourself) could see. He wasn't set up by people to be thought of as scummy, he behaved scummy and therefore he is suspicious.
It's hard to disagree with the fact he vote switched the moment he was linked with you and a good case was made against you.
It's hard to disagree with the fact he led the vote on oneplus, even after stating several times he thought he was town.
It's hard to disagree with the fact that he disappeared after making the vote against oneplus, and that he didn't offer any real defence to the suspicious against him when he re-appeared.
And you're now reading him as town I take it? Based on this quote that seems to be the case:
Solohan is playing like he did last time as scum. His excuses are less original though.. last time he said his car broke down somewhere in the desert around Vegas. I wouldn't mind voting for him.
Nova said he likes reading my games so I assume he read Newbie Mini Mafia VI which I have linked above. He could be playing on Kohbee's meta as an excuse for his reckless style. I don't buy it though. Kohbee (the DT) was even more obnoxious, you can't even come close to that. I expect you to claim DT when things look tough, It wouldn't influence my vote on you, though. *As a sidenote to this.. Therapist, Solohan and myself were in that game so there's a real chance he made this inquiry, making the conscious decision to mime Kohbee. Hells yeah I'd would vote for him
Therapist, he doesn't play like he did in VI (townie), he was one of the first to accuse someone for accusing someone and stick with the vote to the end while discussing and confirming it along the way. I expected him to have learned from his mistakes and not vote for the loudest player but never would I have anticipated a vote on oneplus from him. Vote for him .. sure, this is not the Therapist I've come to know and like in VI
BlueyD I really don't know/care about him ..which makes me think he's scum due to the fact that as a scumteam you'd probably want to spread out and infiltrate each layer of town. An ideal scumteam is probably a super active player (SC2) a lurker (Therapist/solohan) and someone who's under the radar, posting stuff but not too much and not too little... let's say an average Joe. BlueyD would be an average Joe in my book. I wouldn't vote for him just yet though.
Macheji His tunneling of Nova could me scum's ticket to a second mislynch. It could also be this unshakable guy who wants to get this done so we can move on, but I never really understood what info we'd get from a Nova lynch. If he flips town.. what? If he flips scum .. what then? He didn't really make any cases he just said SC2 is confirmed town for him and he named a couple of people in his testament, including myself and not including solohan for some reason, that he finds suspicious. All we can hope for is the instrument that will provide info on who was against and pro and for what reason .. last minute voteswitching etc. But we kind of had all that last time with oneplus and it didn't really pay off, did it? Vote for you? Not today
Pure-SC2, lynching this guy would give us a shitload of info if he flips scum HOoooooolly shit. Everything he said .. imagine going through that knowing he was scum. Wow, it blows my mind. If he flips town .. :sound of jackass But then at least people will have to read the thread if they want discussion instead of just reading his resumes
Daymor he's ok but that Alarm bells thing on macheji was pretty derpy, but he seems to be capable of finding his way in this game.
On April 17 2012 05:58 Daymor wrote: If you are town, I think you will continue to be active which is definitly something we need considering the level of lurkers we have in this game.
At this point I think you have contributed enough to spare you from the Day 1 lynch. As I said I haven't had a chance to really look through the last few pages thoroughly.
I still have my suspicions, but for now I might consolidate the vote on oneplus. To prevent any last minute switching.
##Unvote: Nova_Terra ##Vote: oneplus
Was it worth it? I told you Nova outlasted his use to us after Day1. Did he post any cases .. I've just finished reading his case.. soft defending and shit .. it's not stellar. Did he at least defend himself adequately? + Show Spoiler +
Lazermonkey I have no idea what to make of this guy. He says it's his first game but he doesn't hesitate calling oneplus noob and bad townie. His sentences are bad so it's likely that some points against him stem from that so.. same advice for you .. keep it simple. + Show Spoiler +
Conclusion!
I'm still not sure whether oneplus is just bad or scum. but imo both him and durant is acting really strange. So lynching oneplus would in one way or another give some info about Durant.
I read a small portion of that game before i decided to focus on my own If an ideal scumteam would be Pure, a lurker, and an average joe who had a decent case against him at least, why not try for it? Its our best info option. And has a high chance of success if you are that suspicious on Pure. assuming you're town.
On April 20 2012 01:05 Pure-SC2 wrote: It's hard to disagree with the fact he vote switched the moment he was linked with you and a good case was made against you.
It's hard to disagree with the fact he led the vote on oneplus, even after stating several times he thought he was town.
It's hard to disagree with the fact that he disappeared after making the vote against oneplus, and that he didn't offer any real defence to the suspicious against him when he re-appeared.
Yes, as i said, These are such bad moves i cant actually comprehend that a mafia would choose to do that.
What's the connection between Pure and Bluey? If it's this part of your case
BlueyD jumps on the Pure vs Lazer bandwagon, which was set up well by his previous post. no problem for him because of it.
I don't get it. What Pure vs Lazer bandwagon? I believe he was the first to vote for Lazer and there are only 2 votes on him as of yet.. and both him and Pure gave reasons for their voting.
On April 20 2012 01:05 Pure-SC2 wrote: It's hard to disagree with the fact he vote switched the moment he was linked with you and a good case was made against you.
It's hard to disagree with the fact he led the vote on oneplus, even after stating several times he thought he was town.
It's hard to disagree with the fact that he disappeared after making the vote against oneplus, and that he didn't offer any real defence to the suspicious against him when he re-appeared.
Yes, as i said, These are such bad moves i cant actually comprehend that a mafia would choose to do that.
Well, call me crazy, but I want to push for a vote on the person with the most suspicious behaviour so far.
Pure vs Lazin meaning Pures case that everyone started agreeing/bandwagoning on vs Lazer. BlueyD kept setting up things that would agree with pure later, and kept bulldogging for him, as you put it.
- I did call meta change before I got my role. If I took a big step back, it’s because my first 2 games had me attacking all over the place, causing unintentional chaos, and being the juiciest target at LYLO both times, which led to scum victories (though I was never lynched after all, but no one would listen to me).
- A lurker getting modkilled is worse than a lurker getting lynched because you can get information off of the lynch from where people’s votes went. With a modkill you just lose a player for no reason.
- There is a big difference between ‘arguing for and against no-lynch’, and ‘looking at people’s behavior surrounding said issue’. I note that Nova’s case on Solohan relied a lot on said ‘behavior surrounding the issue’, so I don’t see why me commenting on it is scummy. I did focus my analysis on one side of the aisle because that’s the side I thought to be most suspicious, but I did not argue for or against nolynch, which is the real waste of time.
- Real life reasons right now keep me from being here at day apart from lunchtime, and my day is when the majority of player seems to be active. I still try to get out at least a good post at lunchtime and another at night.
- I will remind town I did not only defend Nova; I also attacked him for the macheji modkill stuff. I don’t think I can be accused of stroking his ego with that post, can I?
- As for Nova’s assertion that I don’t say which of Lazer or he is scum at the daybreak post, I note that I did provide a hint as to how town should find out. I simply didn’t have time to carry that analysis out right there, but I later returned and did exactly what I said should be done. I should not be blamed for doing exactly what I said I would do to judge who of Lazer and Nova was most likely to be scum.
- Me asking Lorant for his case on Pure should not be suspicious at all given that he mentioned Pure being scummy in passing, with zero analysis, and Pure was and is my best townread (for logical argumentation and pushing the right person).
- My last post’s ‘defense of Pure’ is to be read mostly as an attack on Lorant, whose case was utterly unconvincing and made in a spirit of ‘what could be the worst possible scenario’ – and worst case scenarios are unlikely to actually be true and more likely to lead to a townie lynch, so I’m inclined to think of people who post them as scummy.
- Thinking there is a scum among the lurkers is not the same as advocating a lurker lynch. I even put a vote on Lazermonkey in the same post, so this accusation by Nova is entirely silly, unless of course he means I’m scummy because I would eventually lynch a lurker... I note Nova also thinks there’s a lurker in the scumteam and presumably he wants to lynch him at some point, so why am I being called scummy for this? This is the same behavior as mine.
My lunchtime is over, someone look into the Nova-Lazer connection as seen in the last few hours, Nova seems to be defending Lazer now.
I did call meta change before I got my role. If I took a big step back, it’s because my first 2 games had me attacking all over the place, causing unintentional chaos, and being the juiciest target at LYLO both times, which led to scum victories (though I was never lynched after all, but no one would listen to me).
Once again, even so, this is not an acceptable meta change. And i think you know better too.
- A lurker getting modkilled is worse than a lurker getting lynched because you can get information off of the lynch from where people’s votes went. With a modkill you just lose a player for no reason.
fair enough
There is a big difference between ‘arguing for and against no-lynch’, and ‘looking at people’s behavior surrounding said issue’. I note that Nova’s case on Solohan relied a lot on said ‘behavior surrounding the issue’, so I don’t see why me commenting on it is scummy. I did focus my analysis on one side of the aisle because that’s the side I thought to be most suspicious, but I did not argue for or against nolynch, which is the real waste of time.
you used the phrase, "about lynch vs no-lynch" which definitely shows a contradiction. Therefore you commenting on people because of it was scummy. However, if we rephrase it like that all it was was casting a bit of suspicion on people. Not as scummy there, but still some.
- Real life reasons right now keep me from being here at day apart from lunchtime, and my day is when the majority of player seems to be active. I still try to get out at least a good post at lunchtime and another at night.
I see and understand the problem, but the posts that you do make still dont contain your own self-provoked analysis. which is suspicious.
- I will remind town I did not only defend Nova; I also attacked him for the macheji modkill stuff. I don’t think I can be accused of stroking his ego with that post, can I?
Exactly my point. goes from soft defense to starting to have a plausible "reason" to vote for me the next day. I think the motivation behind those posts against me there are to set up another likely lynch possibility.
- As for Nova’s assertion that I don’t say which of Lazer or he is scum at the daybreak post, I note that I did provide a hint as to how town should find out. I simply didn’t have time to carry that analysis out right there, but I later returned and did exactly what I said should be done. I should not be blamed for doing exactly what I said I would do to judge who of Lazer and Nova was most likely to be scum.
Then what you did was make this point to let other people do some dirty work before you, and then come back and add a couple points onto whichever the victim was. You didnt say when you would be able to, and didnt try to do anything but make an implied suggestion that someone else do that. Also, this could have the added benefit if say, Pure and you, were mafia, as he would be able to take some credit off of this, and you as well.
- Me asking Lorant for his case on Pure should not be suspicious at all given that he mentioned Pure being scummy in passing, with zero analysis, and Pure was and is my best townread (for logical argumentation and pushing the right person).
Asking for his case, sure. Never saying anything about pure really until he is questioned, then bulldogging, is suspicious.
My last post’s ‘defense of Pure’ is to be read mostly as an attack on Lorant, whose case was utterly unconvincing and made in a spirit of ‘what could be the worst possible scenario’ – and worst case scenarios are unlikely to actually be true and more likely to lead to a townie lynch, so I’m inclined to think of people who post them as scummy.
I still interpret it as a bit more bulldogging and going along with pure.
- Thinking there is a scum among the lurkers is not the same as advocating a lurker lynch. I even put a vote on Lazermonkey in the same post, so this accusation by Nova is entirely silly, unless of course he means I’m scummy because I would eventually lynch a lurker... I note Nova also thinks there’s a lurker in the scumteam and presumably he wants to lynch him at some point, so why am I being called scummy for this? This is the same behavior as mine.
At this point in time, saying that those 3 people/groups are your scumreads makes me assume that you would still lynch a lurker. Also, that post gives you a wide variety of options to go to if you were scum and a way to convince town. The semi-lurker and controller in the ideal scum team should be taken down first. And yes, i am saying that Lazer is the incorrect lynch for today. If we lynch blueyD and are wrong, we lynch Lazer the next day and have a tonnnnnn of info. If we lynch lazer and are wrong, what do we do then? That is the question i ask you all.
Will be writing a long post as fast as I can. but first off:
@Pure - I don't know really what to say anymore. I feel like I've responded to all your questions, but you still say I have many more things to answer. Can you be a little more specific? I did say why I voteswitched, I did say why voted on Nova etc. The arguments you use against me now are basically the same as when you made your first case against me. I answer the post and you post the same thing again.
I don't know what to say about Solohan50 atm. I read through his filter from last game(where he played mafia) and it seemed to be alot like this one. A short summary would be: Lurking haaard, being very defensive and is never the first one to accuse a person. Half of his posts are excuses for not being there/not posting enough/posting fluff. The other half is posting and kicking on people that are already lying.
So let's compare to this game. His first posts are not very telling at all. He is talking about no lynches etc. and isn't adding anything at all. His first major accusation is of Nova. But this is way after Pure first case on Nova and at the point of voting he is the third person to put his on Nova and doesn't really contribute much to the case. He has an easy time to blend in the case against Nova.
Then he is posting a bit about people he is suspicious about, but Nova isn't on this list, why? Instead he plays the safe cards and is basically saying that he thinks the lurkers should post more. He then has a defensive post about why he isn't able to post: because he lives in the US. still havn't really contributed.
He is then starts to accuses me, but at that point there have already been 2(or more?) major cases against me. His arguments on why I am scum were the same as Pure/Nova/whatevs. He says that my case on Macheji is weak but he is yet to post one good of his own. Anyway, after his case against me he DOESN'T vote for me. In fact he doesn't even claim that I actually am scum. Only that my play have been suspicious. It's first a whole day later that he actually decides to put the vote up against me. This is after the true shitstorm have hit me in the face, and Solohan can easily blend in with everyone accusing me of being scum.
All this looks very similar to last game where he in fact was a mafia. Basically lurking and playing really really safe which doesn't look like a townie to me.
1 Vote(s) on Macheji from Daymor 1 Vote(s) on Nova_Terra from Macheji 1 Vote(s) on BlueyD from Nova_Terra 1 Vote(s) on Solohan50 from Lazermonkey 3 Vote(s) on Lazermonkey from BlueyD, Pure-SC2, Solohan50
Have yet to fire their votepistol: TheRavensName, Lorant, Therapist
Someone please translate the case on Lazermonkey for me from case analysis to scum agenda analysis. You've been mentioning a lot of
partnership or leader-follower instead of WIFOMing. I found out Nova had his own opinions and Lazer was the parasite here. This means Nova is not to be faulted for the connection between those 2, Lazer is.
. But what exactly does that achieve for scum? I can't imagine Lazer going like hellooo scumteam .. I'm going to get connected to Nova so I can be his buddy .. and then when people point this out I'm going to say he's actually scummy HHAAHA!!! what a devilish ploy.
Look, if there was any indication that mafia is dumb I wouldn't hesitate to vote for Lazer .. as he's got the dumbest behavior out there. But shooting Crossfire was genius so there's at least one guy who is not a total dumbass and he could all by himself prevent his fellow mafia to do stupid shit like Lazer has done, by telling them to be consistent. If SC2 doesn't switch to his secondary target or someone else.. even me, then I am 95% convinced that he is scum. This makes no sense.
actually, i cant tell what has happened here. 3 of my top 4 suspicions voted for lazer. I kinda doubt they mafia would be stupid enough to all vote together one after the other...
It looks like we both agree (and Nova as well) that Lazer is an idiot, and his behaviour was scum like (you didnt explicitly state this Lorant, but I get the impression you agreed). That is what I'm basing my scum read on, and my vote. It's pretty simple really.
You don't have to agree with my case on him, but I'm basing it on what I can establish from everything I've read so far. It's a solid, tangible lead based on his behaviour.
You seem to imply that because he was dumb enough to act so scum like, that he couldn't possibly be scum. This is the same opinion voiced by Nova. Of course you can have stupid scum, and I believe that's what we have here.
Going to bed now, hope that I survive the night. Don't think so tho :S. Pure seems to act strange at this point, doesn't answer my post even tho he is accusing me etc. Will keep my vote on Solohan tho. Hope to see you tomorrow ^^
On April 20 2012 06:17 Lazermonkey wrote: Going to bed now, hope that I survive the night. Don't think so tho :S. Pure seems to act strange at this point, doesn't answer my post even tho he is accusing me etc. Will keep my vote on Solohan tho. Hope to see you tomorrow ^^
Sorry, but there isn't much to say.
You can't change the actions that led me to vote for you, and claiming inexperience as a reason just doesn't cut it for me. We're all inexperienced, it's why this is a newbie game.
You've had the most suspicious behaviour to date, and at this stage with the information available, I made my vote based on that.
Therapist and Raven .. you will be modkilled if you fail to vote in 25 minutes. I'm going to vote in the last second so don't even bother waiting for me.
On April 20 2012 06:26 Lorant wrote: Pure, tell me why you think Lazer is scummy from a scum agenda POV. Be creative and for the love of God just find something.
It's not about the overall scum agenda, so I don't think you can find what you are looking for from me.
He made a mistake on day 1 with his switch on Nova, he then initiated an unsubstantiated lynch vote onto oneplus, dissapeared, and then returned with weak cases on first Mechiji and then Solohan. The case notes and my reasoning are there to see.
Am I 100% certain that he is mafia? No. But he is my strongest mafia read so far and I haven't identified with any other cases at this time. For what it's worth, Nova is still high on my list but see no point pushing that yet.
Pure, one thing that is continuing to concern me is the fact that you refuse to mention or aknowledge other cases, and you continue to tunnel. Are they inferior to your own? why do you have this stance? The longer you keep this up the more i think you are scum.
Going to bed. i assume i'll see lazer the townie dead when i get up, but if any townie feels like rallying and actually killing a likely scum, try pure. gl
I know I'm really inactive. I'm just really busy lately. Sorry I'm not gonna be much good in this game, but I am going to throw a vote in so I don't get modkilled. Not based on anything in particular except my fairly blind faith in Nova at this point.
Ok, I mentioned earlier that I don't intend to have my vote end the day on Macheji, and that is still my plan. I like that he has been contributing and I can certainly see a decent amount of effort going into his posts.
@Lorant - In regards to your question about sparing Nova_Terra from the lynch and my position after the fact. I personally did not have a solid read on oneplus at the time, but looking back on it the fact that he was willing to stick his neck out is probably something I should have picked up on.
I do think that Nova did a decent job of defending himself, the one thing I got from it is he is at least invested in the game, I saw less of that from oneplus.
Your case on Pure-SC2
Similar to BlueyD's perspective I don't really find your case terribly convincing, there are a few issues I have with your case and your more recent play, I don't intend to turn it into a case at the moment, but I will list a few of the bigger things that I find concerning;
On April 16 2012 21:16 Lorant wrote: @Pure-SC2 in response to your case on Nova. We'll have to see what his suspicion of solohan is, but I'd still like Crossfire to answer the same question .. preferably before Nova. If crossfire has an argument to offer Nova will just have to find another one.
It pains me to say this but Nova has outlasted his use to town already. He did good with the voting (although that was symbolic, not sure if it had any palpable effect) and he has shown us an anti-example of how a leader should not act. I doubt we can expect him to make substance-packed, easy to follow cases but I would love to be positively surprised.
On April 19 2012 06:21 Lorant wrote:
My gut feeling basically is that I'm scared. I'm pretty scared that Pure-SC2 is playing good scum while Nova is bad scum. If so, they tried to control the thread from the very beginning and establish Nova as leader and it would've worked because Nova could've posted Pure's observation/analysis making him look capable. Pure's case on Nova was trivial and he would've switched his vote but oneplus already had 6 votes and Nova only 4. After Raven switched it would've been way to scummy for Pure to switch too. Now what's happening is that Pure is the capable one and Nova might be covering his back like a dog, grunting at everyone who even considers his strongest town read scummy. I don't know which is worse (hard to counter), this or a leader Nova with Pure's posting. So this is basically what I'm afraid of. Nothing more, nothing less. Irrational .. maybe Oh and talking about Nova bulldogging for Pure. Check out how he's on my ass after I say Pure is scummy. He doesn't even care why he just wants to take me apart with the council stuff and whatnot.
1) Initially, I get the impression that you are at least somewhat agreeable to Pure's case, you don't really ever state you thought it was good or anything. But you state that Nova_Terra 'has outlived his usefulness' as you put it, so a similar opinion is certainly there.
Between the two posts, I think it's fairly clear you haven't changed your position in regards to Nova_Terra, but you have in regards to your perception of Pure's case, it went from a more neutral stance to being 'trivial'. Nowhere in that first post in response to Pure's case could I find a solid stance on it either way. So I say neutral because you have come to the same conclusion.
2) In reference to your case against Pure-SC2, this part I don't think contributes anything towards your argument or provide a solid reason why he should be lynched;
On April 19 2012 06:21 Lorant wrote: My gut feeling basically is that I'm scared. I'm pretty scared that Pure-SC2 is playing good scum while Nova is bad scum. If so, they tried to control the thread from the very beginning and establish Nova as leader and it would've worked because Nova could've posted Pure's observation/analysis making him look capable. Pure's case on Nova was trivial and he would've switched his vote but oneplus already had 6 votes and Nova only 4. After Raven switched it would've been way to scummy for Pure to switch too. Now what's happening is that Pure is the capable one and Nova might be covering his back like a dog, grunting at everyone who even considers his strongest town read scummy. I don't know which is worse (hard to counter), this or a leader Nova with Pure's posting. So this is basically what I'm afraid of. Nothing more, nothing less. Irrational .. maybe
This section starts by stating your gut feeling, and that you are scared. Then to support this statement instead of really introducing anything I would consider tangible you introduce a big WIFOM and speculation basically stating 'if this, then that' etc.
Your perspective is certainly vastly different to mine, but I have a hard time taking that seriously when you support the argument with nothing tangible other than speculation and what essentially amounts to fear-mongering.
As for today's vote
I still have a town read on Pure, and Lorant's case doesn't really change that perspective at all. My strongest scum read is still Lazermonkey. His more recent posts I feel have been better, but I still trust my earlier opinions on him from this post.
On April 20 2012 06:17 Lazermonkey wrote: Going to bed now, hope that I survive the night. Don't think so tho :S. Pure seems to act strange at this point, doesn't answer my post even tho he is accusing me etc. Will keep my vote on Solohan tho. Hope to see you tomorrow ^^
nah.. if Lazermonkey isn't scum, then Pure isn't the cool scum guy who proposed the shot on crossfire. I want to know who the cool scum guy is .. Nova, are you the cool scum guy? Therapist? Solohan, Bluey, Raven who got modkilled? Has the cool scum guy left the game now? I will read the scum QT and if there has never been a cool scum guy I am disappoint. Was the shot on crossfire luck? Am I unable to find scum because they're way to stupid for me to come up with their agenda? Am I too stupid? Cool scum guy .. I am going to find you and then I'm going to lynch you .. unless you kill me first.
Fuck... too busy today to log in.till a bit ago and I've been reading the 8 pages that got posted while I was away. I thought we had way more time. The last deadline was way later it seemed. Sorry. Feel free to mod kill me.
Although I got some bad vibes from some of the stuff you posted. I think you are a townie. And considering tonight we will already be down to 5-3 and Lynch or Lose (LYLO).
You getting modkilled will end the game now, if my read is right.
Yeah I think you make sense aye. For now I would probably tag my scum team as Lorant and two of these three Nova, Solohan, Therapist. Probably side more towards Nova and maybe Solohan.
Yeah, a few people have certainly pointed a few things out here and there about finding Lorant confusing. I can't argue with that, I thought his case against Pure was lacking in a few areas.
Well, here's to hoping you don't get modkilled, your vote couldn't have changed the outcome of the vote anyway. If you had voted for Pure-SC2, Lazer would still have been lynched as he was the first to reach 4.
So there is a decent chance you just get a warning, so I might cya round later in the game.
For now I am going to go have my lunch, getting hungry.
Lorant why does crossfires death mean that pure isnt the cool scum guy? crossfire was just a blue that got hit because he was the easies blue read and we were all way off at the time.
The events of the last day have led me to do a re-evaluation. I've been so focused on trying to find solid scum-like behaviour, that I haven't been looking at the big picture. Now that Lazermonkey has flipped town, I'm hoping to use this knowledge to help us get some real leads on the mafia because I have to admit, I think I've been played.
How I see it, the only real information we have right now is who voted for who, and seeing if that tells us anything, and trying to find the motivation. In my initial analysis of Oneplus's lynch, I excluded my suspicions from people I read as town, and to a certain extent didn't put much weight into cases made against them. Based on last nights lynch result, it's time I stopped leaning anyone as town and look at everything as objectively as possible.
So for starters, the voting.
Day 1:
Voted for OnePlus: Daymor, Crossfire, Nova_Terra, Therapist, Lazermonkey, BlueyD, (TheRavensName as well, but he switched off 13 minutes prior to deadline)
Voted for others: Pure-SC2, Solohan50, Macheji, TheRavensName, OnePlus voted for Nova_Terra Lorant voted for Crossfire
Day 2:
Voted for Lazermonkey: BlueyD, Pure-SC2, Solohan50, Daymore
Voted for others: Nova_Terra, Lorant and Therapist voted for Pure-SC2 Macheji voted for Nova_Terra Lazermonkey voted for Solohan50 TheRavensName - missed the voting window
I think that at least 2 mafia voted for Oneplus, and at least 1 voted for Lazermonkey. Interestingly, BlueyD and Daymore voted for both. I also think that the mafia team wouldn't all be voting on the same target.
Therapist: Turns up 40 minutes before deadline (after 2 days absence) and puts an unsubstantiated vote on Pure-SC2 (me), due to "fairly blind faith in Nova". He is the ultimate non-contributing lurker at the moment.
@Lorant - I think getting a hit on blue Crossfire was luck. I don't think he was targeted specifically because he was blue, but of course I could be wrong. My WIFOM thoughts at the time was that he was hit to discredit me, as I had fingered Nova->Lazer->Crossfire as suspicious. Now that we know Lazer was town, this seems even more likely to me.
One thing I don't understand, why did Daymore post a link to his whole google doc of notes? On my initial read through I thought it was great as I could see he had very similar reads to me, and considered me town, etc etc. But later on I thought it seemed a little strange to link the doc like that.
On April 20 2012 10:37 TheRavensName wrote: Am I dead Risk?
No, but this is a warning to everyone. The next person who misses to vote will be modkilled. Remember there is no harm in voting early if you're not sure you will be back in time for the deadline.
On April 20 2012 06:49 Nova_Terra wrote: Pure, one thing that is continuing to concern me is the fact that you refuse to mention or aknowledge other cases, and you continue to tunnel. Are they inferior to your own? why do you have this stance? The longer you keep this up the more i think you are scum.
This is a fair question Nova. I've read everyone's cases and found many of them to be quite weak, some have contained plain incorrect information and some are based purely on WIFOM and past game meta. I didn't find anything in them that convinced me that there was someone better to vote for than Lazer.
You are right, in that I've tunnelled both yourself and Lazer quite strongly since the beginning and in hindsight can see the problems with this. In the lead up to the deadline last night I became more and more convinced that Lazer was going to flip town, but couldn't see anyone I would rather vote for in his place. At the least I felt that we would have 2 days of voting behaviour to look at in order to learn something from and develop leads.
I'm revisiting everyone's cases today to see if I missed anything on my first read through, plus am planning to look into some of my own leads and see if anything lines up.
@Pure-SC2 - Your question regarding why I posted my whole google doc is fairly easy to answer. Initially I was under the impression that the deadline would be 9am my time. As such I would be at work and wasn't sure if I would be able to get all my thoughts together in a clear concise manner.
So I was tossing up between posting my google doc or trying to summarise everything within 30mins. So I decided to post my link before I went to bed. Then when the deadline got extended, well yeah. I probably didn't need to post the whole doc because I could have summarised it.
But yeah in all honesty I am scratching my head as to what to do now. Mislynch and we pretty much lose.
Anyway here are some quick thoughts, obviously I have a town read on Pure-SC2, so with the result of the lynch as it stands, the two candidates in my mind are two townies. So Mafia have no need to be worried at all. So therefore similar to you I think 1 may be on Lazermonkey because a lot of people thought he has scummy tendencies, so it would be easy to blend in. Then the rest would be scattered, and then from there you can't really do too much more.
It's not exactly credible in the first place anyway, since it's purely speculation and WIFOM. But those are my thoughts anyway. It seems Newbie Town's always have issues anyway. I was reading up on the game prior to this one, The VIII one, I think it was Mattchew who was a coach said a lot of newbie town fall into the confirmation bias trap. They have a read, stick to it just to see if they are right or not. I thought it was an interesting bit of insight and most certainly is true of me.
I had a scum read on Lazer and wanted to see his flip, and when I did my heart just sank, just sat there shaking my head. It's frustrating, because I did re-read his filter just 1hr or so before the lynch and the thinks I picked up early on didn't concern me as much any more and I started to get a slight impression he may be town. But my options where lynch him who I at least had suspicions against or lynch you who I am about the only read I am convinced of.
Anyway that's enough for a late night rambling. Time for bed.
Looking back at the voting patterns, one thing came to mind. I'm starting to get a stronger town leaning on Nova (he's flipped around so much), and I'm wondering if the mafia is hiding behind us both, i.e., they spread their sheeping across us both since we seem to be the most vocal and can support us when then know we suspecting townies in order to lend weight to our suspicions.
And again.. WHAT THE FUCK is up with these discussions right now? Do you people have a verbal bladder problem, well suck it up and hold it until 3 minutes before the deadline ffs.
I haven't really looked @ Nova too much lately, mainly because his filter is probably up to 9 pages now. And that's a big effort. Lately I have been leaning town, but every now and again I see him do things that I just don't like.
I think the mafia kind of have it easy in Newbie games aye. Because by it's very nature there are a handful of dumb decisions made, and they only have to maybe slip in for a couple seconds, bring what they want back into the discussion and sit back and let town go the wrong way.
So I can definitely see them sitting back and not really having much to do at all.
But given our current situation, where we essentially must lynch scum or lose. We can't really go after the lurkers, because the risk of missing is huge because we don't have much on them (I think about 4 or so people fall into this category). That leaves us with a tiny pool of players that are contributing on a level that allows us to form solid reads. I don't think all 3 scum would be lurking (although it is possible).
So I definitely think we have a huge task ahead of us.
There's no point in it is there? What you have to say now you could just right in a txt or something and post it later on when we will actually be discussing a lynch. We'll have 48 hours at our disposal + the info from night actions. So .. the hell .. stop giving scum the right idea on who to shoot next.
With the amount of lurkers etc in this game at the moment, scum have all but won. At some point we will have to try lynch into that group of people who aren't contributing anything. Because you can bet there will be at least one scum in there.
Maybe I should just go to bed and clear my head a bit. Just frustrating, because even with all the effort i have tried to put in I still haven't really got anywhere.
Don't give up, mate. DT will post his investigation and who he's checking tonight (2 minutes before dawn - not 1 second sooner). Tomorrow we'll have a scum lynch .. I guarantee.
Ok, sorry. But I think what Nova said was more questionable than the testicle image. I wouldn't be surprised if soemone got fired if their boss would have any idea how silly it was.
Uhh, seeing as 1. BlueyD is scum and 2. people keep saying that im stronger and stronger town in their minds, I would think that i am the most likely choice to die
Pure-SC2 is not people. He's just Pure-SC2 .. 1 guy. Far from being everybody or even people (plural). Maybe Therapist too, who's been the main joke of yesterdays stand up comedy voting show.
Screw this, im sick and im not waiting for another 3 hours until deadline. i want to actually get a decent night sleep for once. all i have to say is that im pretty sure BlueyD is scum, unsure on pure, as one of his recent posts seemed really heartfelt. I think Lorant is being too much of an ass to be mafia, but who knows, he is FF >.> Daymor is a possibility. we will see i guess. Lynch Bluey if/when i die. Farewell
Therapist’s vote is suspicious. Guy gives the stupidest reason for a vote I’ve ever seen, and the timing just happens to be 30 minutes before day ends? His past posts had no real analysis in them, it’s a bunch of talk about lynch vs no lynch day 1 and then nothing of substance. If we lynch a lurker, it should be this one.
I want to turn to our friendly neighbourhood Daymor for a second, to point out that after going from “lurker lynch” to “no lynch” day 1, his call on day 2… was “lurker lynch” again! It’s true that we had a massive lurker problem on day 2, but that wasn’t less true on day 1.
On the plus side, it did get macheji to post. But I’m seeing another advantage for Daymor himself here: He gets to delay his real vote until he sees where the wagons go.
His strange lurker list at the very start of day 2 where, in a very questionable read, therapist did not get placed in the top category:
Lurking particularly badly - Macheji - Solohan50
Lurking but posting enough to get by - Therapist - TheRavensName
Contributing, but want more - BlueyD - Lorant
The case on macheji:
I’ll note this contradiction by Daymor:
I would be happy to lynch Macheji based off this information as between not contributing and the alarm bells in regards to his case against Nova_Terra I feel comfortable enough sticking with it.
But afterwards, he backs off (admittedly after Macheji contributes) and says his case was not worthy after all:
Macheji is not my strongest scum read, nor do I believe the case was strong enough to lead a lynch, so I do plan on ending the day with my vote on someone else.
Note he does not switch his vote off immediately to either another lurker or a more supported case. That takes another 11 hours.
Daymor’s vote was also the safety vote on Lazer, which helped keep Pure alive, but I don’t know if that has any significance. Anyway I think it’s possible we have a Daymor-Therapist duo here. Don’t know who would be the third yet.
---
I cannot be here sunday afternoon due to a large student protest and will in all likelihood not be back at my computer in time for the vote, so I’ll have to put a vote I’m comfortable with as my final vote Sunday morning, at most. I should be here most of saturday, though.
Okay, so it turns out that i was lying about leaving because it might have made mafia think twice about my death. Maybe. anyways, i'm Cop And i highly reccommend for any mafia here to doubt/counterclaim my claim. if i survive the night, i will explain why i am cop tomorrow. first night check was Town on Lazer, and now i am checking Pure. Why pure? Im reasonably sure blueyd is scum. if i check pure, we get much more info before i die. if i dont die now. Anyways, if i live, if pure gives a town read we should vote bluey. if scum, we go pure. then I die, and trust that the other towns can pull it off. Also we cannot discredit the possibility of a godfather. Gl hf guys.If i die, i do definitely want BlueyD to die. But, pure and daymor also scare me sometimes. think hard my townie friends. Nova out
Did a lot of reading today. Saw an anti-connection between the two main sheep, BlueyD and Solohan. They seem to essentially ignore each other, BlueyD seems to have sheeped both me and Nova, Solohan seems more anti Nova and pro me.
Therapist is either very suspicious or just highly inactive town who loves Nova. I'm leaning suspicious.
Nova I'm leaning town on, but damn he has said a lot of scummy things.
Lorant, keep the scum analysis coming.
Daymor's my strongest town read, but thats just based on the fact he seems to think like me.
I'd still like Therapist to respond to this question of mine some time this week, if he's not too busy of course. Stupid people might dismiss it because it's about the nolynch subject that we are oh' so tired of hearing about. But for me this is important to confirm whether he's scum 100% or just 80% or so.
On April 16 2012 10:53 Daymor wrote: I would also like to add, that although the discussion regarding lynch v no lynch may not mean anything if indeed you cannot vote for a no lynch. It does however provide the opportunity for people to comment and add their perspective as to what they feel about the policy. This provides us with information which we can analyse nd to help show the motivation and logic behind their arguements. So it is far from fruitless.
Personally, I didn't get shit out of the nolynch discussion. So what did you two get.. it sounds to me that you were just faking enthusiasm for the perspective of an analysis source. I knew right away that nothing about it is going to matter discussion-wise. Unless you can provide us with some valuable insight that you've gained from it I suggest you explain yourself, why did you both say that when it's clearly not true? And don't even think about telling me you've honestly believed that you could make reads upon taking in consideration who was pro / against a lynch, lynch a lurker / scummy player etc because that's just manure. It also sounds to me like some sort of shifty justification for the bluefishing that has been going on, judging by the first nightkill.
it is far from fruitless
but only for scum.
In case I die tonight, I want to urge my fellow townies not to trust a case if it's not backed up by scum agenda analysis. Scum is organized and always has some tactic or gambit to win the game. Town is not and if you're a new player and have never read a scum QT before you can't imagine what to look for. You'll have to improvise and imagine how you would've reacted if it was you chatting in the scum QT To give an example of a good scum agenda analysis... with me as subject of investigation.
Now that we know that Lorant is FourFace, by accident or not, we can imagine a probable scenario where he could've walked into the scumQT like this: "Aloha scumteam. I am Lorant, a smurf. My aka is FourFace and I've played 3 games thus far, VT 3 consecutive times. If I out myself as Fourface.. I will most likely not get banned and receive a warning instead and then my meta allows me to say whatever the fuck I want. I can clog up the thread, I can say the craziest shit about anyone and I can troll without anyone seriously considering me a primary lynching candidate, they'll most likely even consider me confirmed town for it. This being a newbie game, people are actually going to take me seriously and I have a good chance to infiltrate the leading circle of respected players, where my deceptions - cleverly disguised as scum agenda analysis - will throw town off of suspecting our lurker and our average Joe. I will also discredit any case, regardless of whether it's on one of us or not, by saying there's no scum motivation to it, thus demoralizing the most active players and seed discontent when they are involved in a mislynch."
Question is .. would he have outed himself as FourFace if he had been town. In previous games he got pissed off when people didn't take him seriously due to his trollish nature, so as town he would've been better off being plain ol' Lorant the newbie. As scum however he had all the meta he needed to do whatever he wants. The simple fact alone that he is smurfing would be enough to convince people that it's the usual FF play doing his thing. What crazy things did he do besides smurfing anyway. His play up to this point seems rather mild when compared to his first game where he practically went apeshit with doc claim, rickroll, editing his posts twice and more.
Lorant. Could have deliberately ordered the killing of Crossfire, his nr1 contester, and then make it look like this genius ploy to frame him. Calling his own actions genius .. doesn't that sound just like what a multiple personality troll would do to get his kicks out of the game. He was after all the first one to mention bluesniping, what a flashy word for something that could've been pure luck and left at that if it wasn't for FF with his 4 giant egos. He could've gone through Crossfire's filter afterwards just to find some tiny indication that he has in fact given himself away as blue and that FF is oh' so intelligent to have noticed this.
Nova clearly stated even before the game that he is going to get mad and retaliate if someone insults him. FF has done just that, deliberately to provoke him and cause chaos.
The probablity of Godfather framer and miller are low there's 1 scum for every 3 townie .. it would be imba if there isnt' a DT with 100% legit investigations
Well, I'm reasonably convinced on your BlueyD case Nova. After Lorants posts yesterday and the misslynch on Lazer, I realised I had been trying to look for the obvious things.
BlueyD's filter reads like someone playing the pro-town sheep mafia style. His comments on Therapist throw me a bit though.
Pure, now me and you work together, mmmmkay? FF..... dunno what to say about you being roleblocked. i think youre trying to make yourself seem inno after all this shit. well find out.
There's nothing to find out officer. Now it's us 3 and we got 5 people from which to extract 3 scum. No turning back, this is it. We have to trust ourselves it's LYLO.
BlueyD, look at my filter.... i'll still explain why theres no chance im not cop. just seriously, my claim should be pretty obvious upon reading my filter.
yep. and the fact that i purposely didnt try to take control of anything and kinda seemed like the town idiot for a while. kept scum offa me. and i didnt make any dangerous cases except vs you.
On April 21 2012 08:19 Nova_Terra wrote: yep. and the fact that i purposely didnt try to take control of anything and kinda seemed like the town idiot for a while. kept scum offa me. and i didnt make any dangerous cases except vs you.
That kind of makes sense, actually. Ok, you're the cop. They're gonna roleblock you until we get the roleblocker so yeah. Good night. But why the fuck would you check Lazermonkey? And how come you didn't manage to convince us he's town. OMGUS Good night
Yeah this is not going well... I think we can find an answear if we analyze the votes good enough. I'll do that when i wake up ( 5 in the morning here ) . There are deff, mafia amongs the ones that voted for the townies, and i bet there are mafias among the people who's vote did not influence the lynch. My future case will acc revolve arround the people who voted for townies/ people who voted for someone else except the 2 highest voted targets and exactly why they done that... I mean, if alot of people think X is mafia, and vote for him... you should have a damn good reason to be the only guy that voted for someone nobody else tought to vote. There's a case there somewhere , i can feel it .
And btw, goddamn Lazer's play was WEAK. Daymor's aswell , i acc had them both high in my scum list...
I've got a busy weekend so won't be around as much as I've been. Hopefully a few people can get some discussion going, as there are a lot of people staying silent after the latest revelations.
I think Daymor's play was as pro town as could be, not weak at all apart from a few mistakes in his analysis (mainly of you) so that may be why it seems weak to you. Lazers was unfortunately bad, and I just wish I hadn't been so focused on his mistakes, but I had my initial read that I couldn't shake off, until my doubts right before the voting deadline.
Lazer screwed himself over enough that i couldnt really do anything to save him aside from claim, which i didnt want to do. if they DO have a rb, then thats great news, and pure is town.
Now heres my proof of being cop all game instead of calling it to win as scum.
On April 16 2012 02:35 Nova_Terra wrote: I am here for another few hours tonight. am hoping to see a lot more activity within the next day. more activity, more posting analysis, etc. Course, this does not mean that fluff posting is okay. on to more important matters, next we should go after people who dont seem really dumb but are making posts with a strange motivation behind them. purpose behind the posts is a huge teller as to what the players alignment is. Please feel free to question me while i am here.
Message # 1. I am Cop
On April 19 2012 23:00 Nova_Terra wrote: leave me a bit of time. My case is being worked on. [blue-try to focus on some other analysis on some other players to. or check peoples motivations. Why do you think that we need to focus the evidence on 1 person Macheji? never do that. its scummy to try to limit the lynch down to 1 person.
[/blue] Message # 2. LM-town Also, the first breadcrumb was before i was under any suspicion on day 1.
Voted for OnePlus: Daymor, Crossfire, Nova_Terra, Therapist, Lazermonkey, BlueyD, (TheRavensName as well, but he switched off 13 minutes prior to deadline)
Voted for others: Pure-SC2, Solohan50, Macheji, TheRavensName, OnePlus voted for Nova_Terra Lorant voted for Crossfire
Day 2:
Voted for Lazermonkey: BlueyD, Pure-SC2, Solohan50, Daymor
Voted for others: Nova_Terra, Lorant and Therapist voted for Pure-SC2 Macheji voted for Nova_Terra Lazermonkey voted for Solohan50 TheRavensName - missed the voting window
Nova, I've done my own checks, and follwing the night you did switch your stance on Lazer and I think did a good job of pushing your town stance on him without making it too obvious.
Backed up with the breadcrumbing and your check on me and I'm on board.
The mafia have been defeated. Solohan50 Therapist. BlueyD - Roleblocker Mafia Headquarter.
Town have cleansed the town of Radfields men and achived victory. Pure-SC2 Macheji TheRavensName oneplus Lynched day 1. Lazermonkey Lynched Day 2. Lorant Daymor Killed Night 2. Nova_Terra - Cop Crossfire99 - Vigilante Killed Night 1.
Yeah we had to take it up the ass for 2 days and nights but scum was like shit, game over after that. GG Nova, Pure and everyone except me who didn't do shit right this game. Cya.
After finally getting confident of Nova's cop stance, That was my three, which I hinted at last night.
Hehehe, shame it ended early, but think we woulda had it.
My big question mark was Lorant, but I did think he was town. I had this fear that Nova had pulled the ultimate fake on me with the breadcrumbing, calling Lazer town and then his read on me, but felt stronger that he was what he said.
I was going to push for BlueyD and saw the anti-connection between him and Solohan, and Therapist was just suspicious. So it was BlueyD, see how Solohan responded, and move onto Therapost.
That was my first mafia game and wow was it interesting. Was a bit dissapointing we didn't get more discussion going, and I completely misread things at first. It was actually Lorants posts that changed the way I was looking at this, as well as watching Newbie VIII from the start, and seeing that finish yesterday and reading my first scum QT, it was like ahhhhhhhhhh, I see what I'm doing wrong.
Very cool, reading the scum QT. I knew i was right on withh BLueyD and his frequency of posts in QT was funny cause i figured that that was the case. Very flattered by QT <3 Solohan and therapist, you guys need to work on your day 1 play. i was still null read on therapist, but solohan was and continued to be one of my highest scum reads. BlueyD, Your meta screwed you. There wasnt anything you could have done after my case on you to stop me going after you except flipping really. Im just lucky that i have this spammy meta all around cause i would get labeled so easily otherwise. Also none of you said anything important that stuck in my mind. which seems suspicious
Farewell, hope to see you guys around as this was my last newbie game D:
When i saw the endgame post i figured town had been MKed hahahahahah risk. nuke, I was dissapointed by lack of flavor, timing, periodic counts, clarification on lynch time, etc. Just my $0.02. But thanks for hosting anyway
Was way off on some of my reads. Just looking at the wrong things I guess.
Guess it's just one of those things that comes with experience, was a interesting experience no doubt. But my time zone would make it difficult to play in any more I think.
Knowing what I know now though, if I do ever play again. Definitely gunna be pushing those lurkers lynches. Jesus Christ.
Daymor, check when games come up to see the deadlne and if you can make it. Lol FF, i am also dissapoint. I have a question for you, will post it in an hour or so.
Pure, the main reason i thought you were scum after night one, your main suspicions were all town(two of them blues, actually) and therefore i figured you were just scum. your play seemed scummier around the middle of the game, but aside from that you played very well. EDITwoohoo edit!) Its totally fair that people are told they are roleblocked, but Host should have said it in the OP.
I think the mafia did a really poor job of picking there targets. They got lucky on the blue hit day 1, unless they blue sniped? If they were scared of medic on Pure they should have killed daymour day 1 imo. I think they killed crossfire to discredit pure, but in the same sense it gave positive WIFOM to nova who most people suspected.
Then the hit on day 2 coulda been on either Pure or Nova after nova was gaining ground on town credit. Should be taking out the best analysts firsts. Not planting WIFOM ticks in everyones mind imo. After taking out the vig it was likely town didn't have a medic. But the mafia had it rough they had 2 inactives basically. Bluey had no team to work with which is annoying.
I followed the whole game, Pure good job analysing/activity (even though all three reads were wrong day 1-cross nova lazer) but you were too stubborn to look at other peoples cases. The case on lazer was good, but the case on blueyd was better.
Nova good job breadcrumbing and not dieing as cop 2 days of checks allowed town to win this.
So FF/Lorant, first you think in playing like an idiot, and then say you expect me to claim DT when its tough.
On April 20 2012 01:05 Lorant wrote:
Nova said he likes reading my games so I assume he read Newbie Mini Mafia VI which I have linked above. He could be playing on Kohbee's meta as an excuse for his reckless style. I don't buy it though. Kohbee (the DT) was even more obnoxious, you can't even come close to that. I expect you to claim DT when things look tough, It wouldn't influence my vote on you, though. *As a sidenote to this.. Therapist, Solohan and myself were in that game so there's a real chance he made this inquiry, making the conscious decision to mime Kohbee. Hells yeah I'd would vote for him
And then you realized you fucked up majorly because you checked my filter and realized i was dt, but had already almost screwed me by pretty much saying that i would claim DT and that my meta was the same as a DT in a different game (which is totally unintentional, btw) and then made it seem as if you were DT to take the hit for me.
On April 20 2012 21:04 Lorant wrote: Don't give up, mate. DT will post his investigation and who he's checking tonight (2 minutes before dawn - not 1 second sooner). Tomorrow we'll have a scum lynch .. I guarantee.
Correct? or am i accidentally giving you bonus credit? Because thats pretty damn smart.
Also BlueyD im impressed by your leadership in the mafia QT just started reading. You had a few blunders but it was your first time scumm, and its because I know you meta
You know at this point I'm not too sure on my reads. All I know is Soho, therapist(my initial suspicion.) and Maj are still lurking pretty hard it seems. Lorant is a massive troll. Blue and pure I still not too sure about. Nova is about the only one I think is innocent at this point. So uh... lets just throw a vote out there for now so I don't forget and I'll read through later sense I'm on my way out for a few.
On April 21 2012 23:24 TheRavensName wrote: You know at this point I'm not too sure on my reads. All I know is Soho, therapist(my initial suspicion.) and Maj are still lurking pretty hard it seems. Lorant is a massive troll. Blue and pure I still not too sure about. Nova is about the only one I think is innocent at this point. So uh... lets just throw a vote out there for now so I don't forget and I'll read through later sense I'm on my way out for a few.
Uh sorry nova. I gotta be honest I wrote that when theres only the first post on 31 page and just submited it before I walked out. I didn't see it ended till literally a second ago when I wondered how we only added one page.
- I had to call ALL the shots and plans and barely had time for my own stuff. I don't think the other 2 guys told me "no, that's a bad idea" once. :-/
- therapist, from the beginning, DID NOT CARE and he should probably have been replaced. the plan had him as the guy on the other side of the table, but he didn't even keep up with the thread and his last votepost was just stupid
- with solohan also getting to the "don't care" phase and telling me he wasn't going to play this out, this game was over and my death was in vain
- I had time to keep up with the thread at work and make small posts in the QT, not much time to do bigger posts in the real thread
- I planned to claim jailkeeper (had a breadcrumb) but learned afterwards that people who get roleblocked (and, I imagine, those who get jailkept) apparently get PMed "you got roleblocked!" even if that had no impact on the outcome. Question to veterans: Is this normal procedure?
So FF/Lorant, first you think in playing like an idiot, and then say you expect me to claim DT when its tough.
On April 20 2012 01:05 Lorant wrote:
Nova said he likes reading my games so I assume he read Newbie Mini Mafia VI which I have linked above. He could be playing on Kohbee's meta as an excuse for his reckless style. I don't buy it though. Kohbee (the DT) was even more obnoxious, you can't even come close to that. I expect you to claim DT when things look tough, It wouldn't influence my vote on you, though. *As a sidenote to this.. Therapist, Solohan and myself were in that game so there's a real chance he made this inquiry, making the conscious decision to mime Kohbee. Hells yeah I'd would vote for him
And then you realized you fucked up majorly because you checked my filter and realized i was dt, but had already almost screwed me by pretty much saying that i would claim DT and that my meta was the same as a DT in a different game (which is totally unintentional, btw) and then made it seem as if you were DT to take the hit for me.
On April 20 2012 21:04 Lorant wrote: Don't give up, mate. DT will post his investigation and who he's checking tonight (2 minutes before dawn - not 1 second sooner). Tomorrow we'll have a scum lynch .. I guarantee.
Correct? or am i accidentally giving you bonus credit? Because thats pretty damn smart.
I'm insane, I don't know what I'm doing but sometimes it helps.
GG. I am glad we won. Lorant/FF, do you always act that crazy/ridiculous? I was about to put in a last minute vig hit on you night 1, when I saw you pull that BS I'm not doing analysis even though I told everyone to do it. But I figured I better be safe rather than sorry, and was confident I wasn't getting shot night 1. Lol.
Any advice for my play? I know I wasn't too active this game, so I will have to be more active in my next game. Also, that breadcrumbing that Lorant/FF saw was unintentional. I just logically thought that made sense and would have posted that if I was town.
On April 21 2012 23:45 BlueyD wrote: - I planned to claim jailkeeper (had a breadcrumb) but learned afterwards that people who get roleblocked (and, I imagine, those who get jailkept) apparently get PMed "you got roleblocked!" even if that had no impact on the outcome. Question to veterans: Is this normal procedure?
I'd like to know this as well. Since Lorant popped green, there's no way he should've known that he was roleblocked.
I know there are alot of things I could had done better this game. The deadline for example became a mess and that is all my fault. Aswell since it's a beginners game I should probably had included coaches in the role pm's aswell as explained the roles further in the OP to avoid for example the confusion the roleblocker caused.
Thank God it ended... I had a sick schedule this last few days and also for the next few days... parties, i was in a fight and i'm cut on my right arm, my left arm hurts from a anti-tetanos shot , my head hurts ,i had to go to the dentist, to the hospital to X-ray my head ... had a hangover most of the days and when i wasn't i was studying for pathologic surgery... Wich i lagged behind and have alot of catch-up to do... Tommorow i restart school and i have to be at the hospital from 8:30 in the morning till 14:00 and then come back home to study.. Go at the dentist again and X-ray my jaw because i have a flawed 3rd molar that may need extraction. I met a girl thursday night and i'll also have to go out with her until the next friday when i'll go to the seaside ( Romanian ''holiday'' that is largely definded but ALOT of parties all over Romania, especialy at the seaside ) and i say have to go because if i'll lag in meeting her again i'll prolly lose my chance... Had to come back here to post something, i hate letting people down... Well, i wasn't a real asset tbh as i was wrong on many of my posts, i wanted to kill the cop :p... but that may have something to do with my general schedule ... Anyway, my next game will prolly be in a month or so , after my big exam... This game really does require a time investment.