|
Remedy
It's good to get something from you ! Welcome back to town
@debears
Thanks for finally answering my questions about the way kush treated you in his post. You seemed very reluctant to do it.
On October 01 2012 03:04 debears wrote:@Djo Show nested quote +On October 01 2012 02:09 Djodref wrote: @debears
Well I would disagree about sheeping. Nobody so far has pointed out the defense you got from kush and the posts where he implies that you are his scumbuddy. So why do you think kush was defending you ?
@everyone
Before going to bed, I would like to state that my guess for the scumteam is now debears/alsn. I think Z-BosoN has the right of it. I'm asking for a vig shot on debears !
Also Remedy is too much of a lurker. I don't think we are going to encounter lylo or mylo situations in this game but I hope that we can get something of him before this...
You have been sheeping. Look at SDM's case on you Show nested quote +On September 30 2012 22:03 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:And to clarify a couple of things about my case on Djo now that I'm up to date on the thread: 1. Latching on to others reads: As newbie scum it's really hard to make original cases. I had first hand experience Cubu and Imcasey in XXVI. The only case Imcasey could make was against our scum buddy Xatalos (that's quite easy because he knew he was scum). We had a similar situation with Debears in XXVII, at least in the beginning where the only case he could make was a defense of Thrawn, which is easy to do because he knew knew he was town (well, he flipped SK, but Debears couldn't know). 2. How can anyone buy into Kush's defense that easily? A newbie town is usually very suspcicious and it was a really silly defense, at the very best null. Using "player" and "people" sounds awkward? How isn't that an obvious lie? + Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 20:12 kushm4sta wrote: 2. My supposed scumslip: huh? What else should I have called you? Player? Person? Maybe but to me those things sound awkward. Townie just seemed like the most non awkward word to use. Innocent until proven guilty. That's how we do it in America bro.
As for the other lurkers, I don't find Remedy suspicious, rather the opposite although his post count is still low. Nothing really stuck out to me the same way Djo did when reading Omn's and Corrosion's filter. Also, the reason why no one is addressing kush's "scum for life" and "I saved you" posts to me is because the argument is pure WIFOM. Kush was scum. For that reason, we have to look at scum motivations 1) He was giving away his partner and throwing the game away. I believe he didn't give up on the game since he was mafia. Otherwise, he would most likely be punished for his actions in the game. Also, he is experienced. He isn't a dumb noob that would give up. He was willing to take the sack as scum last game when people started reading him as scum (although it never came to that). 2) He was attempting to set up someone who had "soft defended" him so that it would lead to a mislynch the next day.This point can be easily turned into WIFOM. Why would you believe the words of a confirmed scum? The purpose of mafia is to disrupt the the town and turn townies against each other. Number two fulfills that purpose.
I agree that kush defending you can be turn into a WIFOM shitfest. But what I get from kush's meta is that he let his emotions speak anyway, regardless if he is town or mafia. I think that's the reason why DarthPunk nailed him so easily. I've been looking at kush's behavior through the thread and I found that it changes after Z-BosoN's case on you.
Please look carefully at the time stamps + Show Spoiler +On September 29 2012 05:29 Z-BosoN wrote:This is the time when Z-BosoN strongly attacks debears and vote for him in the thread. All the following posts are from kush's filter. I think he was desparate to see the game lost for mafia so fast and started to flame and troll. On September 29 2012 05:46 kushm4sta wrote: Hi z bozon. Inconsistencies do not make someone scum. Also it's quite funny how you are so certain this early in the game. To summarize this awesome post: your case is not strong. you are overconfident in your scumread.
Very first reaction to Z-BosoN's vote on debears On September 29 2012 05:52 kushm4sta wrote: hi stutters . its not that I don't give a fuck about this game. its that I don't give a fuck about not making "scumslips".
what questions have I dodged? To need to ask me them with a.question mark apart from the rest of your text.
The only question I see are what are other examples of savvy. I can't find them on my.phone. He fought with Alsn (allison?) though. Maybe you can look into that racquetball is lame.
also you are.not excused cursing.
Flaming stutters On September 29 2012 05:59 kushm4sta wrote: My.top scumread after darthpenguin: haven't given it.much thought. maybe djosef because he is playing the noobs.card pretty hard. and djo guy,.if you want people.to say your name right don't make it random letters please Attacking me because my name is weird ! (This one is a joke by the way) On September 29 2012 06:22 kushm4sta wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 06:17 Z-BosoN wrote:On September 29 2012 05:59 kushm4sta wrote: My.top scumread after darthpenguin: haven't given it.much thought. maybe djosef because he is playing the noobs.card pretty hard. and djo guy,.if you want people.to say your name right don't make it random letters please Then give it more thought. kush seems scummiest honestly ##vote kush The ice on the cake And one hour later On September 29 2012 07:44 kushm4sta wrote: debears I saved you bro...scumteam 4 lyfe He think he was still heated at that time. Also I think he got blamed for it because there is an apology post from him roughly one hour later again. On September 29 2012 08:58 kushm4sta wrote: i apologize btw
Honestly I would feel better if it was a WIFOM trap but I don't think so. Kush directly discredited Z-BosoN when he voted for you and at a time when he wasn't totally derailing. I'm pretty sure that's what made him go ape shit.
|
Oops, the latest post of of DarthPunk reminded me that I forgot to do an important thing after my case.
##Vote: debears
|
Hello guys !
Just a quick post from work.
It looks like either Alsn or debears are going to be lynched today. I'm totally fine with that because they are actually my scumteam right now. I'd prefer a debears lynch because of my cases against him so my vote is on him right now but I guess we are going to end up lynching Alsn for the following reasons:
- Association with kush
- Clustering the thread without scumhunting
- Lack of commitment
Also DarthPunk has made an early vote him so I'm pretty sure town is gonna sheep on him at the end. But please don't do this ! Try to come out with your own decisions Nevertheless, I might need to switch my vote to secure a lynch on Alsn. If so, I'm going to do it 5 hours before the deadline when I go to bed.
Also I'm seriously promising you here a better post regarding why I suspect Alsn.
Now regarding corrosion, I think he is the wagon mafia is going to try to push today so please take your time to read his filter twice (not so long ) with the following glasses:
- He is an evil scum !
- He is newbie town ^^
And decide for yourself
See ya !
PS: I'm hoping for Lesrah to catch up quickly
|
And to be clear with my motivation for my corrosion point, my goal is totally to defend him.
|
He sais he would vote for the guy who was going to do the less amount of scumhunting between Alsn, Debears and me. Probably at the end of N1, iirc.
|
Well, I'm for a debears lynch because I really want to know if the following post was gamethrowing or a WIFOM bomb
On September 29 2012 07:44 kushm4sta wrote: debears I saved you bro...scumteam 4 lyfe
Also I'd like to show everybody than this other one was a real scumslip after all
On September 29 2012 01:55 debears wrote:@Djoref Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 15:22 Djodref wrote: @DarthPunk
For your information, i consider the comments of debears on my posts legitimate. Let me say that I even don't like them. Currently reading the guides and older game analysis. Please pm marv for help. The coaches are great
So if you feel like me, please vote debears !
Also I didn't have the time yet to follow in detail all the cases on Alsn. But the few I've seen is enough for me to vote for him to secure a lynch on him if needed. In this case, I promise again to give my explanations for the support of his lynch. Anyway it looks like we got them all already for me.
And on a side note, I would like people to vote ASAP because I'm not going to be here for the lynch deadline so I can see if can stay on debears or not.
Also is the modkill, if there is one, happening at the lynch deadline or at the end of D2
|
EBWOP: I'm not going to be here for the lynch deadline so I'm not going to be able to check if I can safely stay on debears or not
|
On October 02 2012 19:48 DarthPunk wrote: Are you ok with an alsn lynch?
@DarthPunk
Was this question directed to me ? I think I have already made it clear that I was also ok with an Alsn lynch... Anyway I can't really develop here because I'm on evening shift but I'll be back in 5h to cast my final vote. I'll try to do some scumhunting also if I'm not too tired because I'm getting lazy in this thread.
|
Ok guys I'm almost back home !
I'm going to be posting soon. I'll try to convince you to vote for debears one last time
|
First, I'd like to remind you the cases I've made against debears so far. I'm keeping the most relevant parts only. I'm including one of Z-BosoN because it's similar and adds more depth to the actions of kush towards debears.
+ Show Spoiler +Here you can find how he defends his scumslip. My point is that he is very reluctant to acknowledge his reference to marv. But I guess you already have all your opinion about this one.On September 30 2012 23:46 Djodref wrote:Ok now concerning debears, I'm going to focus on one point : his scumslip ! Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 01:55 debears wrote:@Djoref On September 28 2012 15:22 Djodref wrote: @DarthPunk
For your information, i consider the comments of debears on my posts legitimate. Let me say that I even don't like them. Currently reading the guides and older game analysis. Please pm marv for help. The coaches are great I know this point not new and debears has already addressed it but I would like to point out the way he addressed it. First this slip might not be as evident as Kush's one but it is one nevertheless. The same way kush knew Darth was town, debears also know I'm town is because he is mafia ! For the people suspecting me, please consider this post written by a town Djodref ^^ Debears didn't write "Get some help from the coaches !", he wrote me to get help from the town coach because he knows I am town. Now please have a look on how he answered me when Omniscient asked him about it + Show Spoiler +On September 29 2012 03:28 debears wrote:@Omniscient Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 02:17 Omniscient4983 wrote:On September 29 2012 01:55 debears wrote:@Djoref On September 28 2012 15:22 Djodref wrote: @DarthPunk
For your information, i consider the comments of debears on my posts legitimate. Let me say that I even don't like them. Currently reading the guides and older game analysis. Please pm marv for help. The coaches are great So you're confirming him town? No. I am trying to help a newbie get into the swing of things. Last game, there was a large portion of lurkers, and it destroyed the game atmosphere. If he gets help and posts more quality, we have a much better read on him. He denies it right away and gives a town motivation for his post. But then he starts talking about lurkers. I think lurkers and newbies are two different things and he was trying to divert everybody with this line. After that I give my guess on a kush/debears/corrosion scumteam and call him a scum by association in the light of Z-BosoN case against him. Here is his answer to my post. By the way, I asked him at this time what was his read on me but I should have ask directly "how do you know I am town?" + Show Spoiler +On September 29 2012 15:21 debears wrote: @djo
What parts of his case specifically do you believe?
His main case against me is contradiction. Look at my case against thrawn in the last game. What was the main point of that argument? Inconsistency. Its an easy point for scum to point out.
There are two possibilities for kushvin my eyes 1) a mafiab tryingbto pity his way out off a lynch 2) a townie acting likeva total noob with accusations against him.
Which has less assumptions? Number 1.
My problen with the scum by associstion is the case that i was defendung kush earky on. That us false i was trying ti communicate ti darth that his reasoning wad based off such a strong s assumption early in the game. In fact, I'd say that z-bosons case against me is the same. He looks at the mafia side only, which to me is a indicator of mafia. I can't make a case dur to drinking and being on my phone.
My read in you is that you are sheeping onto cases. I don't like it because i did the same.
Why do you think i would refer you to a coach? What are the townie and mafia motivations behind it.
@z-boson
The same question stated the line above refers to you
He doesn't want to give a clear answer on his read about me. What does it mean that I'm sheeping onto cases ? I think it was too dangerous for him to pronounce himself about my alignment due to his previous slip. I asked him why he directed me to marv and answer by a question because he cannot afford to be transparent on this subject. Here is the part which I find the most interesting and which I'm going to develop even further. This is an analysis of kush's behavior regarding what is happening to debears in the thread. The most important post in my view is in the first spoiler of the next postOn October 01 2012 00:03 Djodref wrote:I would like to add some digging I have been doing in kush's filter to add more material to my case on debears. Here is a post where our great mafia player Kush defends debears from to case of Z-BosoN + Show Spoiler +On September 29 2012 05:46 kushm4sta wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 05:29 Z-BosoN wrote:All right, I went through debears filter now, and I'm confident he is scum. Let's go through this more carefully now. His first post: On September 28 2012 11:05 debears wrote:Lol. Kush already going at it. Hey guys. I'm debears. This is my second game ever of mafia. I have a couple of things to add: + Show Spoiler +Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 09:18 DarthPunk wrote:On September 28 2012 09:10 Z-BosoN wrote:On September 28 2012 08:43 DarthPunk wrote: It is not impossible to find scum on the first day. Policy lynches get you no info, you are most likely going to hit a townie, and you end up in the same position the next day minus 2 town. @Djodref your 'day plan' is unnecessary. Scum hunt, vote for your top scum read and everything else will fall into place. After LVII I'm rather liking the idea of policy lynches, in extreme cases. Killing lurkers in a lurker-infested town, for example, is something I'm inclined to agree on. If the town proves itself active, then whoever proves himself scummier will occupy the noose. Given that this is a newbie game, scums are generally more scared to post. While that is a general tendency, I don't agree with mass posters being cleared right off the bat, even if their posts seem meaningful. What I suggest in this game, is that people read. From my few games, much time is usually wasted discussing things that have not been read properly. On September 28 2012 06:56 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: Cool, we're on. Pretty bad timing though, I'm off to bed and then I've got a day at uni before I can really start posting. I hope to God when I get back we've moved past the lurker policy discussion. My message to newbies: the best way for you to clear yourself is to post a lot. Don't post just for the sake of posting though, that'll make you look like scum because posting for the sake of posting is what scum do. This is a rather useless post. Newbie towns want to scumhunt. Newbie scum want to look like they are scumhunting. That =/= posting a lot but not for the sake of posting, or whatever you meant. And please tell me, what do you mean? You say you hope to have moved past the lurker discussion, and yet you are telling people to post a lot? In my eyes you are telling people not to lurk because that will make them seem scummy. It seems to me that you are indirectly stating your views on lurkers despite openly saying you don't want to talk about them. Meh. Don't like lurker policy lynches at all. It just tells scum: Post. and your safe. I have read every post so far as scummy and I don't see SDM's post as more or less scummy than the others. But posting a lot will let people get a good read on you so you should 100% be doing this as town. And then if all the townies are posting you force scum to. Which makes it much easier to nab them also. SO. Post a lot if you are town. You make scum uncomfortable and facilitate town reads on yourself and scum reads on scum. You also clutter the thread if you just post alot. Let me specify. Post quality as often as you can. That means reread the thread and build good cases. One liners don't do much good. Cases with multiple quotes and a few sentences of explanation per quote are good (most of the time). Also, USE YOUR COACHES TOWN. Thrawn pmed Hapa over 50 times last game and he had the best town performance. That isn't a coincidence. @Kush I don't like the way you are starting off this game kush. It's eerily similar as last game when you were mafia. You mention you're deathless streak, nk, and your scummy meta without anyone bringing it up. You should know that I most likely know you're trends better than anyone else in this game. The only difference between this game and last is that you have engaged in a flame war with Darth this game, which is unhelpful to our town. FOS Kush@everyone One more thing: Feel free to accuse and build cases on anyone you want for the first 24 hours. However, let's start tunneling for the second 24 hours. Also, I would like everyone to start considering a lurker (in your head) once we hit the second 24 hours as a backup. If we get close to the lynch deadline, and there are no scummy candidates, feel free to post a good case on which lurker would be the best candidate. First of all, his "I want town to win!!" post telling town to use their coaches. He then FoS's Kush, due to the fact that he's playing a similar game as the one he was scum. He says that DP + kush flame war is bad for the town, but doesn't attack Darthpunk, probably because he finds kush to be more scummy looking. Now, from a townie perspective, what does debear want? Information in order to lynch kush, as he pointed a FOS mostly based on a meta read. But suddenly, towards darthpunk: snip --You could also say that you are too convinced in your reasons. What I am cautious of at this point is that you stated directly before the game that you were after kush if he plays like he has in his past 3 games. I feel like that may be clouding your judgement in this situation.
Our main goal is to lynch mafia. Yes, kush has said some scummy things. However, I'm not gonna go around parading this early saying "kush is scum. Kush is scum. OMFG".
Also, let the man defend himself instead of trying to rally everyone active behind your cause so early. If he is scummy, the votes will come. He is defensive towards kush. That's not how townies think. While I agree that DP is a bit overboard on kush, I don't agree that he failed to give arguments as to why he thinks that is so. A townie with a FOS on someone will want to deal with the arguments first. He doesn't do that, and suddenly becomes defensive on Kush. He says, later: I'm not defending him as much as I'm trying to tell you that you are going overboard right now. You don't have to rush in annointing him scum. He is more bothered by DPs certainty than by his actual arguments. Inconsistency #1. He then comes up with two cases. One against me, and one against Djoref: @Boson + Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 09:10 Z-BosoN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 08:43 DarthPunk wrote: It is not impossible to find scum on the first day. Policy lynches get you no info, you are most likely going to hit a townie, and you end up in the same position the next day minus 2 town. @Djodref your 'day plan' is unnecessary. Scum hunt, vote for your top scum read and everything else will fall into place. After LVII I'm rather liking the idea of policy lynches, in extreme cases. Killing lurkers in a lurker-infested town, for example, is something I'm inclined to agree on. If the town proves itself active, then whoever proves himself scummier will occupy the noose. Given that this is a newbie game, scums are generally more scared to post. While that is a general tendency, I don't agree with mass posters being cleared right off the bat, even if their posts seem meaningful. What I suggest in this game, is that people read. From my few games, much time is usually wasted discussing things that have not been read properly. Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 06:56 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: Cool, we're on. Pretty bad timing though, I'm off to bed and then I've got a day at uni before I can really start posting. I hope to God when I get back we've moved past the lurker policy discussion. My message to newbies: the best way for you to clear yourself is to post a lot. Don't post just for the sake of posting though, that'll make you look like scum because posting for the sake of posting is what scum do. This is a rather useless post. Newbie towns want to scumhunt. Newbie scum want to look like they are scumhunting. That =/= posting a lot but not for the sake of posting, or whatever you meant. And please tell me, what do you mean? You say you hope to have moved past the lurker discussion, and yet you are telling people to post a lot? In my eyes you are telling people not to lurk because that will make them seem scummy. It seems to me that you are indirectly stating your views on lurkers despite openly saying you don't want to talk about them. Boson, please try not to read too hard into a person's very first posts and make something out of nothing. It is pretty clear what sonic was saying. He wants newbies to post so that they don't get grouped under the lurker corral that usually follows up later. Last game, we had lurkers galore and it really messed up the town. Also, you mention that his post is useless. Now I will examine your two other posts in terms of uselessness. On September 28 2012 09:12 Z-BosoN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 09:01 kushm4sta wrote:On September 28 2012 08:34 DarthPunk wrote:On September 28 2012 06:58 kushm4sta wrote: @sonic getting everyone's thoughts on lurker policy is important. Don't argue about it but share your views on the matter please.. No it's not. It is simply a mechanism to get the discussion going and allows scum to seem to participate and to potentially mislynch an inactive townie. Any more talk of policy will get you FoS'd. Sorry but who appointed this asshole boss? you get people's thoughts on lurker policy, so you can catch them deviating from it later and question them about it. And why are you that scared of a FOS? A one-liner. A question that really doesn't accomplish anything. In other words, a useless post. Also, your next post doesn't address his response although he responded right after and you posted within 30 minutes of his response in a pretty light thread. On September 28 2012 09:43 Z-BosoN wrote: @DP
Saying we will lynch lurkers is one thing. Deciding whether a lurker should die later at day two is another. What I said is I'm inclined to lynch a lurker if there aren't better choices, not that we will 100% lynch a lurker.
@Stutters
I'd like to see more posts from you. In XXIV you showed you were capable of making decent posts as town, so I encourage you to post eve more here.
@kush
What's your view on darthpunk? You said you don't like his coldness, but you don't like it in a "he's scum" sort of way? Yet again, nothing of substance here. You go more in depth about semantics (is that the right word I'm looking for?) about lynching lurkers and lynching lurkers at day two. Second, you call out stutters, who has already been warned by others and most likely the mods for no reason this early in the game. Finally, two sentences, two questions going on about the exact wording of kush's statements. It sounded like before the game you had stated that you have played in multiple games. Is that true? For someone who is telling other people to not post useless posts, you aren't doing a good job of it yourself. Looks more like you are trying to just be active while off the radar. In other words, you are a semi-active lurker who has bad post quality. Sounds like characteristics of a certain alignment. @Djoref+ Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 08:51 Djodref wrote: @Darthpunk
Nevermind you look just more confident to get a scum on D1 than me.
Regarding my plan, I think we need general directions to follow because of the majority lynch. It is a way to gather everybody around 2-3 suspicious players and secure a lynch. I'm assuming everyone agree on a no-lynch to be stupid.
Djoref, I don't like that statement at all. That's the second post you bring up about the likelihood of lynching a townie d1. As town, you should never have that mentality. I would probably less likely to bring this up if you were a total nooby. However, you said you "know Kush's meta" which means you have some decent understanding of the game for a noob. By saying this, it seems that you are setting yourself an excuse to be indecisive later in the day when the lynch voting comes around. Alone, it isn't much. However, your other posts don't help. On September 28 2012 08:44 Djodref wrote: @Darthpunk
Considering that we are likely to lynch a town on D1, don't you think it's a lesser wrong to get rid of someone inactive ? Inactivity means no scumhunt and room to hide for the mafia...
After playing mafia last game, I feel like heavy lurking is a bad play for mafia. It puts too much pressure on you are as a scum. Instead, posting lightly without much substance is more mafia indicative. Yet again, I feel you are just looking like you are contributing without saying much. Especially when you already covered your thoughts in a previous post. On September 28 2012 08:36 Djodref wrote:Hello everybody ! About meThis is my first game ever on forum but I've been playing on SC2mafia and also irl. But I've been lurking on the TL Mafia forum for a while (so I know your meta kush^^) and I decided to join this newbie game. I'm also a French guy and I live in Korea so my english is not on top and it's going to ne difficult for me to be around at deadline (5.00 am KST). Lurker policyFrom the games I've seen, unless you have a golden scumslip on d1, it's very difficult to lynch a scum the very first day. So I have no problem ending up voting for the most suspicious lurker at the end of the day. I define most suspicious lurker as a semi-lurker just trying to blend in.Day PlanI don't think to be able to be around for the first deadline so I would like to propose a day plan to secure a lynch as we are using a majority vote. First 24 hours to find lynch candidates while scumhunting and next 20 hours to decide who is the scummiest. Last 4 hours to consolidate the vote or switch to a lurker. Please discuss Notice how you are just repeating points? It isn't helpful to us. Next post On September 28 2012 11:09 Djodref wrote:@Kush Was it also a joke ? How can you be so sure you are not going to be NKed ? A two sentence, two question post. I don't like these. They are worthless. Also, this question came quite a bit later after darthpunk already was asking questions about joking. You seem to be sheeping onto darth's case against kush. On September 28 2012 11:53 Djodref wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 11:22 kushm4sta wrote:
Because the most active townie is tunneling me?
I would also like to hear you explanations about this specific part. I don't have a read on Darth on the moment considering he has only been hard tunneling you. As you said yourself you have a scummy meta so you are an easy target for early game to put pressure on. So what makes him so much town ? Yet again, this post is just repeating what darth is saying. Another question. I don't like this. Your early posts are indicative of a semi-active scum. Sheeping, question posts, and rehashing things already said multiple times. Notice the similarity between the two. He attacks us for asking questions (later on denies that they provide any discussion whatsoever), and falls into the same "semi-active lurker" category he's sniffing about. I will ignore the quality of his arguments, which I personally think are horrible, and will look more towards their similarity. From his case against me:A one-liner. A question that really doesn't accomplish anything. In other words, a useless post. Also, your next post doesn't address his response although he responded right after and you posted within 30 minutes of his response in a pretty light thread. For someone who is telling other people to not post useless posts, you aren't doing a good job of it yourself. Looks more like you are trying to just be active while off the radar. In other words, you are a semi-active lurker who has bad post quality. Sounds like characteristics of a certain alignment. From his case against Djoref:A two sentence, two question post. I don't like these. They are worthless. Also, this question came quite a bit later after darthpunk already was asking questions about joking. You seem to be sheeping onto darth's case against kush. Your early posts are indicative of a semi-active scum. Sheeping, question posts, and rehashing things already said multiple times. See the similarity, especially the bolded part? It seems that he has this "semi-active scum" cake recipe that he is using to sniff out scum. He also calls us out on our posting quality, in my case saying it is bad. I won't address his next post towards me because I've already done so, and because it doesn't increase his scumminess , as "bad cases =/= scum" (although it pisses me off). Anyways, now to the main stuff. He has a case against me and Djoref, for pretty much the same reasoning. Yet, check out what his next post on Djoref is: On September 29 2012 01:55 debears wrote:@Djoref On September 28 2012 15:22 Djodref wrote: @DarthPunk
For your information, i consider the comments of debears on my posts legitimate. Let me say that I even don't like them. Currently reading the guides and older game analysis. Please pm marv for help. The coaches are great Wtf??? What ?? Where is his case against Djoref?? He goes from a scummy-looking sheep with one liners to a "townie who should pm marv for help"? Could he have forgotten that Djoref was one of his main suspicions? Inconsistency #2
Note that I no longer think that his defense of SDM is scummy. I've gone over that a few times and I admit that it can also come from a townie perspective. To summarize, here are the main inconsistencies in his play that scream to me SCUM: 1) He had a FOS on kush, then hurried on to defend him, in the manner I've shown above. I cannot fathom for the life of me having a FOS on someone and suddenly feel like I have to address an exaggeration on that person before I actually address the case. 2) He completely absolves Djoref for absolutely no reason. Townies do not throw around suspicions only to insta-drop them. 3) The other supporting arguments I've shown above.debears is SCUM!##vote debears Hi z bozon. Inconsistencies do not make someone scum. Also it's quite funny how you are so certain this early in the game. To summarize this awesome post: your case is not strong. you are overconfident in your scumread. This one speaks for itself. I believe Kush was still trying to play seriously at this time and tried to defend his scummate. But here are also these two horrible posts Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 07:44 kushm4sta wrote: debears I saved you bro...scumteam 4 lyfe He did this one no so much after voting for himself so I guess he was in full troll mode at this point. He was still attacking Z-BosoN on his "stupid" case. I think he purely gamethrew by seeing two scums nailed so fast in this game. And this one just before admitting he was scum. Given kush character, I could imagine him giving his scum partner like this. I'll be sad if it turns out to be true they are just to much elements pointing into this direction. The two following posts are an attempt to understand the state of mind of kush before and while he blew up. I hope Z-BosoN doesn't mind me to borrow one of his posts. I think they really both go in the same way and they really make a lot of sense to me.On October 01 2012 10:03 Djodref wrote:RemedyIt's good to get something from you ! Welcome back to town @debearsThanks for finally answering my questions about the way kush treated you in his post. You seemed very reluctant to do it. Show nested quote +On October 01 2012 03:04 debears wrote:@Djo On October 01 2012 02:09 Djodref wrote: @debears
Well I would disagree about sheeping. Nobody so far has pointed out the defense you got from kush and the posts where he implies that you are his scumbuddy. So why do you think kush was defending you ?
@everyone
Before going to bed, I would like to state that my guess for the scumteam is now debears/alsn. I think Z-BosoN has the right of it. I'm asking for a vig shot on debears !
Also Remedy is too much of a lurker. I don't think we are going to encounter lylo or mylo situations in this game but I hope that we can get something of him before this...
You have been sheeping. Look at SDM's case on you On September 30 2012 22:03 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:And to clarify a couple of things about my case on Djo now that I'm up to date on the thread: 1. Latching on to others reads: As newbie scum it's really hard to make original cases. I had first hand experience Cubu and Imcasey in XXVI. The only case Imcasey could make was against our scum buddy Xatalos (that's quite easy because he knew he was scum). We had a similar situation with Debears in XXVII, at least in the beginning where the only case he could make was a defense of Thrawn, which is easy to do because he knew knew he was town (well, he flipped SK, but Debears couldn't know). 2. How can anyone buy into Kush's defense that easily? A newbie town is usually very suspcicious and it was a really silly defense, at the very best null. Using "player" and "people" sounds awkward? How isn't that an obvious lie? + Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 20:12 kushm4sta wrote: 2. My supposed scumslip: huh? What else should I have called you? Player? Person? Maybe but to me those things sound awkward. Townie just seemed like the most non awkward word to use. Innocent until proven guilty. That's how we do it in America bro.
As for the other lurkers, I don't find Remedy suspicious, rather the opposite although his post count is still low. Nothing really stuck out to me the same way Djo did when reading Omn's and Corrosion's filter. Also, the reason why no one is addressing kush's "scum for life" and "I saved you" posts to me is because the argument is pure WIFOM. Kush was scum. For that reason, we have to look at scum motivations 1) He was giving away his partner and throwing the game away. I believe he didn't give up on the game since he was mafia. Otherwise, he would most likely be punished for his actions in the game. Also, he is experienced. He isn't a dumb noob that would give up. He was willing to take the sack as scum last game when people started reading him as scum (although it never came to that). 2) He was attempting to set up someone who had "soft defended" him so that it would lead to a mislynch the next day.This point can be easily turned into WIFOM. Why would you believe the words of a confirmed scum? The purpose of mafia is to disrupt the the town and turn townies against each other. Number two fulfills that purpose. I agree that kush defending you can be turn into a WIFOM shitfest. But what I get from kush's meta is that he let his emotions speak anyway, regardless if he is town or mafia. I think that's the reason why DarthPunk nailed him so easily. I've been looking at kush's behavior through the thread and I found that it changes after Z-BosoN's case on you. Please look carefully at the time stamps + Show Spoiler +On September 29 2012 05:29 Z-BosoN wrote:This is the time when Z-BosoN strongly attacks debears and vote for him in the thread. All the following posts are from kush's filter. I think he was desparate to see the game lost for mafia so fast and started to flame and troll. On September 29 2012 05:46 kushm4sta wrote: Hi z bozon. Inconsistencies do not make someone scum. Also it's quite funny how you are so certain this early in the game. To summarize this awesome post: your case is not strong. you are overconfident in your scumread.
Very first reaction to Z-BosoN's vote on debears On September 29 2012 05:52 kushm4sta wrote: hi stutters . its not that I don't give a fuck about this game. its that I don't give a fuck about not making "scumslips".
what questions have I dodged? To need to ask me them with a.question mark apart from the rest of your text.
The only question I see are what are other examples of savvy. I can't find them on my.phone. He fought with Alsn (allison?) though. Maybe you can look into that racquetball is lame.
also you are.not excused cursing.
Flaming stutters On September 29 2012 05:59 kushm4sta wrote: My.top scumread after darthpenguin: haven't given it.much thought. maybe djosef because he is playing the noobs.card pretty hard. and djo guy,.if you want people.to say your name right don't make it random letters please Attacking me because my name is weird ! (This one is a joke by the way) On September 29 2012 06:22 kushm4sta wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 06:17 Z-BosoN wrote:On September 29 2012 05:59 kushm4sta wrote: My.top scumread after darthpenguin: haven't given it.much thought. maybe djosef because he is playing the noobs.card pretty hard. and djo guy,.if you want people.to say your name right don't make it random letters please Then give it more thought. kush seems scummiest honestly ##vote kush The ice on the cake And one hour later On September 29 2012 07:44 kushm4sta wrote: debears I saved you bro...scumteam 4 lyfe He think he was still heated at that time. Also I think he got blamed for it because there is an apology post from him roughly one hour later again. On September 29 2012 08:58 kushm4sta wrote: i apologize btw Honestly I would feel better if it was a WIFOM trap but I don't think so. Kush directly discredited Z-BosoN when he voted for you and at a time when he wasn't totally derailing. I'm pretty sure that's what made him go ape shit. Here is the post I really like from Z-BosoN. Really easy to readOn October 02 2012 14:52 Z-BosoN wrote:Hold up. Not retarded. I wasn't going to dive too much into this because I feel a little bad using a possible mod-warning for arguments. Let's take a look at what happened. @6:56 - kush begins going apeshit, throwing thoughtless postsShow nested quote +On September 29 2012 06:56 kushm4sta wrote: wow only 2 votes. it seems like everyone wants to lynch me and I make imo the vest case and no one even cares because they want to lynch me so bad. Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 06:57 kushm4sta wrote: it seems like I am.beyond helping myself. why would I want to help a town that is going to lynch me Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 07:08 kushm4sta wrote: sorry guys I'm being stupid. moretryhard coming regardless of if you lynch me. also zbosom your case sucks really bad lol. everyone is thinking it. I'm not afraidbto hurt your feelings though. Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 07:32 kushm4sta wrote: zboso I dead will be more valuableble than you alive...dat debears case And finally: Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 07:44 kushm4sta wrote: debears I saved you bro...scumteam 4 lyfe 50 minutes later...@8:35: whole different tone. Apologetic, calm.Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 08:35 kushm4sta wrote: OFC I can remedy. You are the remedy for my sadness. What I meant is at the last second every consolidates on 1 afker because they can't decide on someone active to lynch. It keeps pressure on scum because scum feel like they still have a chance of being lynched, rather than if you just say from the beginning "yeah we're gonna lynch an afk" Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 08:39 kushm4sta wrote: It felt hopeless honestly. See my drive to do well is inherently connecting to self survival and when I think I'm going to die that drive goes away. Everyone said they wanted to lynch me... it was either me or an afker and it was definitely going to be me. @9:28: Then, he slowly regresses to his dumb desperate self, insulting my case and so forth.:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 09:28 kushm4sta wrote: darth is going to be so happy when he gets back Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 10:05 kushm4sta wrote: all vote kush then you can afk until d2
Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 11:33 kushm4sta wrote: he thinks your base on debears is bad.. I know you try harded on it and I'm sorry dude. Just wait he's going to think it's bad.
It all came right after that post. I'm not going to go into details, won't use it as an argument, but it's not like I can just ignore it. At a glance, Alsn's posting seem much scummier than yours. I'm almost certain one of you, if not both of you are scum at this point. It's just that, you being scum, it all fits, including some other thoughts of my own. Regardless of what you come out as, he's likely gonna come off lynched day 3, and I will see to that. ##Vote debears
So here was the introduction. If you are not familiar with these posts, I encourage you to read them carefully. If you don't have time and want to get to the new part, just skip the previous spoiler.
|
@Alsn
This was just an introduction to this case.
@Everyone
Please pay attention to this post from kush, it occurs 15 minutes after Z-BosoN case and vote on debears, in response to it. At this time we have two votes (SDM and Stutters) on him (Darth did unvote him before). So far, he was still trying to avoid a lynch and defending himself quite reasonably.
On September 29 2012 05:46 kushm4sta wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 05:29 Z-BosoN wrote:All right, I went through debears filter now, and I'm confident he is scum. Let's go through this more carefully now. His first post: On September 28 2012 11:05 debears wrote:Lol. Kush already going at it. Hey guys. I'm debears. This is my second game ever of mafia. I have a couple of things to add: + Show Spoiler +Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 09:18 DarthPunk wrote:On September 28 2012 09:10 Z-BosoN wrote:On September 28 2012 08:43 DarthPunk wrote: It is not impossible to find scum on the first day. Policy lynches get you no info, you are most likely going to hit a townie, and you end up in the same position the next day minus 2 town. @Djodref your 'day plan' is unnecessary. Scum hunt, vote for your top scum read and everything else will fall into place. After LVII I'm rather liking the idea of policy lynches, in extreme cases. Killing lurkers in a lurker-infested town, for example, is something I'm inclined to agree on. If the town proves itself active, then whoever proves himself scummier will occupy the noose. Given that this is a newbie game, scums are generally more scared to post. While that is a general tendency, I don't agree with mass posters being cleared right off the bat, even if their posts seem meaningful. What I suggest in this game, is that people read. From my few games, much time is usually wasted discussing things that have not been read properly. On September 28 2012 06:56 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: Cool, we're on. Pretty bad timing though, I'm off to bed and then I've got a day at uni before I can really start posting. I hope to God when I get back we've moved past the lurker policy discussion. My message to newbies: the best way for you to clear yourself is to post a lot. Don't post just for the sake of posting though, that'll make you look like scum because posting for the sake of posting is what scum do. This is a rather useless post. Newbie towns want to scumhunt. Newbie scum want to look like they are scumhunting. That =/= posting a lot but not for the sake of posting, or whatever you meant. And please tell me, what do you mean? You say you hope to have moved past the lurker discussion, and yet you are telling people to post a lot? In my eyes you are telling people not to lurk because that will make them seem scummy. It seems to me that you are indirectly stating your views on lurkers despite openly saying you don't want to talk about them. Meh. Don't like lurker policy lynches at all. It just tells scum: Post. and your safe. I have read every post so far as scummy and I don't see SDM's post as more or less scummy than the others. But posting a lot will let people get a good read on you so you should 100% be doing this as town. And then if all the townies are posting you force scum to. Which makes it much easier to nab them also. SO. Post a lot if you are town. You make scum uncomfortable and facilitate town reads on yourself and scum reads on scum. You also clutter the thread if you just post alot. Let me specify. Post quality as often as you can. That means reread the thread and build good cases. One liners don't do much good. Cases with multiple quotes and a few sentences of explanation per quote are good (most of the time). Also, USE YOUR COACHES TOWN. Thrawn pmed Hapa over 50 times last game and he had the best town performance. That isn't a coincidence. @Kush I don't like the way you are starting off this game kush. It's eerily similar as last game when you were mafia. You mention you're deathless streak, nk, and your scummy meta without anyone bringing it up. You should know that I most likely know you're trends better than anyone else in this game. The only difference between this game and last is that you have engaged in a flame war with Darth this game, which is unhelpful to our town. FOS Kush@everyone One more thing: Feel free to accuse and build cases on anyone you want for the first 24 hours. However, let's start tunneling for the second 24 hours. Also, I would like everyone to start considering a lurker (in your head) once we hit the second 24 hours as a backup. If we get close to the lynch deadline, and there are no scummy candidates, feel free to post a good case on which lurker would be the best candidate. First of all, his "I want town to win!!" post telling town to use their coaches. He then FoS's Kush, due to the fact that he's playing a similar game as the one he was scum. He says that DP + kush flame war is bad for the town, but doesn't attack Darthpunk, probably because he finds kush to be more scummy looking. Now, from a townie perspective, what does debear want? Information in order to lynch kush, as he pointed a FOS mostly based on a meta read. But suddenly, towards darthpunk: snip --You could also say that you are too convinced in your reasons. What I am cautious of at this point is that you stated directly before the game that you were after kush if he plays like he has in his past 3 games. I feel like that may be clouding your judgement in this situation.
Our main goal is to lynch mafia. Yes, kush has said some scummy things. However, I'm not gonna go around parading this early saying "kush is scum. Kush is scum. OMFG".
Also, let the man defend himself instead of trying to rally everyone active behind your cause so early. If he is scummy, the votes will come. He is defensive towards kush. That's not how townies think. While I agree that DP is a bit overboard on kush, I don't agree that he failed to give arguments as to why he thinks that is so. A townie with a FOS on someone will want to deal with the arguments first. He doesn't do that, and suddenly becomes defensive on Kush. He says, later: I'm not defending him as much as I'm trying to tell you that you are going overboard right now. You don't have to rush in annointing him scum. He is more bothered by DPs certainty than by his actual arguments. Inconsistency #1. He then comes up with two cases. One against me, and one against Djoref: @Boson + Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 09:10 Z-BosoN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 08:43 DarthPunk wrote: It is not impossible to find scum on the first day. Policy lynches get you no info, you are most likely going to hit a townie, and you end up in the same position the next day minus 2 town. @Djodref your 'day plan' is unnecessary. Scum hunt, vote for your top scum read and everything else will fall into place. After LVII I'm rather liking the idea of policy lynches, in extreme cases. Killing lurkers in a lurker-infested town, for example, is something I'm inclined to agree on. If the town proves itself active, then whoever proves himself scummier will occupy the noose. Given that this is a newbie game, scums are generally more scared to post. While that is a general tendency, I don't agree with mass posters being cleared right off the bat, even if their posts seem meaningful. What I suggest in this game, is that people read. From my few games, much time is usually wasted discussing things that have not been read properly. Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 06:56 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: Cool, we're on. Pretty bad timing though, I'm off to bed and then I've got a day at uni before I can really start posting. I hope to God when I get back we've moved past the lurker policy discussion. My message to newbies: the best way for you to clear yourself is to post a lot. Don't post just for the sake of posting though, that'll make you look like scum because posting for the sake of posting is what scum do. This is a rather useless post. Newbie towns want to scumhunt. Newbie scum want to look like they are scumhunting. That =/= posting a lot but not for the sake of posting, or whatever you meant. And please tell me, what do you mean? You say you hope to have moved past the lurker discussion, and yet you are telling people to post a lot? In my eyes you are telling people not to lurk because that will make them seem scummy. It seems to me that you are indirectly stating your views on lurkers despite openly saying you don't want to talk about them. Boson, please try not to read too hard into a person's very first posts and make something out of nothing. It is pretty clear what sonic was saying. He wants newbies to post so that they don't get grouped under the lurker corral that usually follows up later. Last game, we had lurkers galore and it really messed up the town. Also, you mention that his post is useless. Now I will examine your two other posts in terms of uselessness. On September 28 2012 09:12 Z-BosoN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 09:01 kushm4sta wrote:On September 28 2012 08:34 DarthPunk wrote:On September 28 2012 06:58 kushm4sta wrote: @sonic getting everyone's thoughts on lurker policy is important. Don't argue about it but share your views on the matter please.. No it's not. It is simply a mechanism to get the discussion going and allows scum to seem to participate and to potentially mislynch an inactive townie. Any more talk of policy will get you FoS'd. Sorry but who appointed this asshole boss? you get people's thoughts on lurker policy, so you can catch them deviating from it later and question them about it. And why are you that scared of a FOS? A one-liner. A question that really doesn't accomplish anything. In other words, a useless post. Also, your next post doesn't address his response although he responded right after and you posted within 30 minutes of his response in a pretty light thread. On September 28 2012 09:43 Z-BosoN wrote: @DP
Saying we will lynch lurkers is one thing. Deciding whether a lurker should die later at day two is another. What I said is I'm inclined to lynch a lurker if there aren't better choices, not that we will 100% lynch a lurker.
@Stutters
I'd like to see more posts from you. In XXIV you showed you were capable of making decent posts as town, so I encourage you to post eve more here.
@kush
What's your view on darthpunk? You said you don't like his coldness, but you don't like it in a "he's scum" sort of way? Yet again, nothing of substance here. You go more in depth about semantics (is that the right word I'm looking for?) about lynching lurkers and lynching lurkers at day two. Second, you call out stutters, who has already been warned by others and most likely the mods for no reason this early in the game. Finally, two sentences, two questions going on about the exact wording of kush's statements. It sounded like before the game you had stated that you have played in multiple games. Is that true? For someone who is telling other people to not post useless posts, you aren't doing a good job of it yourself. Looks more like you are trying to just be active while off the radar. In other words, you are a semi-active lurker who has bad post quality. Sounds like characteristics of a certain alignment. @Djoref+ Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 08:51 Djodref wrote: @Darthpunk
Nevermind you look just more confident to get a scum on D1 than me.
Regarding my plan, I think we need general directions to follow because of the majority lynch. It is a way to gather everybody around 2-3 suspicious players and secure a lynch. I'm assuming everyone agree on a no-lynch to be stupid.
Djoref, I don't like that statement at all. That's the second post you bring up about the likelihood of lynching a townie d1. As town, you should never have that mentality. I would probably less likely to bring this up if you were a total nooby. However, you said you "know Kush's meta" which means you have some decent understanding of the game for a noob. By saying this, it seems that you are setting yourself an excuse to be indecisive later in the day when the lynch voting comes around. Alone, it isn't much. However, your other posts don't help. On September 28 2012 08:44 Djodref wrote: @Darthpunk
Considering that we are likely to lynch a town on D1, don't you think it's a lesser wrong to get rid of someone inactive ? Inactivity means no scumhunt and room to hide for the mafia...
After playing mafia last game, I feel like heavy lurking is a bad play for mafia. It puts too much pressure on you are as a scum. Instead, posting lightly without much substance is more mafia indicative. Yet again, I feel you are just looking like you are contributing without saying much. Especially when you already covered your thoughts in a previous post. On September 28 2012 08:36 Djodref wrote:Hello everybody ! About meThis is my first game ever on forum but I've been playing on SC2mafia and also irl. But I've been lurking on the TL Mafia forum for a while (so I know your meta kush^^) and I decided to join this newbie game. I'm also a French guy and I live in Korea so my english is not on top and it's going to ne difficult for me to be around at deadline (5.00 am KST). Lurker policyFrom the games I've seen, unless you have a golden scumslip on d1, it's very difficult to lynch a scum the very first day. So I have no problem ending up voting for the most suspicious lurker at the end of the day. I define most suspicious lurker as a semi-lurker just trying to blend in.Day PlanI don't think to be able to be around for the first deadline so I would like to propose a day plan to secure a lynch as we are using a majority vote. First 24 hours to find lynch candidates while scumhunting and next 20 hours to decide who is the scummiest. Last 4 hours to consolidate the vote or switch to a lurker. Please discuss Notice how you are just repeating points? It isn't helpful to us. Next post On September 28 2012 11:09 Djodref wrote:@Kush Was it also a joke ? How can you be so sure you are not going to be NKed ? A two sentence, two question post. I don't like these. They are worthless. Also, this question came quite a bit later after darthpunk already was asking questions about joking. You seem to be sheeping onto darth's case against kush. On September 28 2012 11:53 Djodref wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 11:22 kushm4sta wrote:
Because the most active townie is tunneling me?
I would also like to hear you explanations about this specific part. I don't have a read on Darth on the moment considering he has only been hard tunneling you. As you said yourself you have a scummy meta so you are an easy target for early game to put pressure on. So what makes him so much town ? Yet again, this post is just repeating what darth is saying. Another question. I don't like this. Your early posts are indicative of a semi-active scum. Sheeping, question posts, and rehashing things already said multiple times. Notice the similarity between the two. He attacks us for asking questions (later on denies that they provide any discussion whatsoever), and falls into the same "semi-active lurker" category he's sniffing about. I will ignore the quality of his arguments, which I personally think are horrible, and will look more towards their similarity. From his case against me:A one-liner. A question that really doesn't accomplish anything. In other words, a useless post. Also, your next post doesn't address his response although he responded right after and you posted within 30 minutes of his response in a pretty light thread. For someone who is telling other people to not post useless posts, you aren't doing a good job of it yourself. Looks more like you are trying to just be active while off the radar. In other words, you are a semi-active lurker who has bad post quality. Sounds like characteristics of a certain alignment. From his case against Djoref:A two sentence, two question post. I don't like these. They are worthless. Also, this question came quite a bit later after darthpunk already was asking questions about joking. You seem to be sheeping onto darth's case against kush. Your early posts are indicative of a semi-active scum. Sheeping, question posts, and rehashing things already said multiple times. See the similarity, especially the bolded part? It seems that he has this "semi-active scum" cake recipe that he is using to sniff out scum. He also calls us out on our posting quality, in my case saying it is bad. I won't address his next post towards me because I've already done so, and because it doesn't increase his scumminess , as "bad cases =/= scum" (although it pisses me off). Anyways, now to the main stuff. He has a case against me and Djoref, for pretty much the same reasoning. Yet, check out what his next post on Djoref is: On September 29 2012 01:55 debears wrote:@Djoref On September 28 2012 15:22 Djodref wrote: @DarthPunk
For your information, i consider the comments of debears on my posts legitimate. Let me say that I even don't like them. Currently reading the guides and older game analysis. Please pm marv for help. The coaches are great Wtf??? What ?? Where is his case against Djoref?? He goes from a scummy-looking sheep with one liners to a "townie who should pm marv for help"? Could he have forgotten that Djoref was one of his main suspicions? Inconsistency #2
Note that I no longer think that his defense of SDM is scummy. I've gone over that a few times and I admit that it can also come from a townie perspective. To summarize, here are the main inconsistencies in his play that scream to me SCUM: 1) He had a FOS on kush, then hurried on to defend him, in the manner I've shown above. I cannot fathom for the life of me having a FOS on someone and suddenly feel like I have to address an exaggeration on that person before I actually address the case. 2) He completely absolves Djoref for absolutely no reason. Townies do not throw around suspicions only to insta-drop them. 3) The other supporting arguments I've shown above.debears is SCUM!##vote debears Hi z bozon. Inconsistencies do not make someone scum. Also it's quite funny how you are so certain this early in the game. To summarize this awesome post: your case is not strong. you are overconfident in your scumread.
And now, we have 2 possibilities. Either debears is town or debears is mafia.
- debears is town: it could have given kush a good chance of a counterwagon. It was almost the only real possibility for him to shift the focus away from his scumslip. DarthPunk had him even unvoted at this time because people were expressing too much doubts (me included). But instead of jumping on this golden occasion, he trashed this case. Does it make any sense from a mafia point of view ?
- debears is his scummate: he is already under pressure with two votes. His buddy has already one vote on his own. Kush doesn't hesitate and goes all flame against Z-BosoN according to his scum meta.
For me, only the second one makes sense. Also with two members of the mafia already under pressure this early in the game and kush certainly realizing his scumslip is going to cost him his life, he gives up. I don't see any other reason why he had gone so much into self-pity with only 2 votes against him. The case and the vote on debears from Z-BosoN made it also happened.
Now I understand that I'm getting too much into kush's mind but think about it twice and I hope you are going to realize how much it makes sense. Honestly, did you expect kush to blow up like this ?
And now, back to debears himself. When I made my first cases against him which I have spoiled in my introduction of this post, I was really eager to hear him comment on kush's defense of him and also the WIFOM bombs that kush has planted on him. First of all, he didn't reply on this point and I had to ask him again to obtain the following answer.
On October 01 2012 03:04 debears wrote:@Djo Show nested quote +On October 01 2012 02:09 Djodref wrote: @debears
Well I would disagree about sheeping. Nobody so far has pointed out the defense you got from kush and the posts where he implies that you are his scumbuddy. So why do you think kush was defending you ?
@everyone
Before going to bed, I would like to state that my guess for the scumteam is now debears/alsn. I think Z-BosoN has the right of it. I'm asking for a vig shot on debears !
Also Remedy is too much of a lurker. I don't think we are going to encounter lylo or mylo situations in this game but I hope that we can get something of him before this...
You have been sheeping. Look at SDM's case on you Show nested quote +On September 30 2012 22:03 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:And to clarify a couple of things about my case on Djo now that I'm up to date on the thread: 1. Latching on to others reads: As newbie scum it's really hard to make original cases. I had first hand experience Cubu and Imcasey in XXVI. The only case Imcasey could make was against our scum buddy Xatalos (that's quite easy because he knew he was scum). We had a similar situation with Debears in XXVII, at least in the beginning where the only case he could make was a defense of Thrawn, which is easy to do because he knew knew he was town (well, he flipped SK, but Debears couldn't know). 2. How can anyone buy into Kush's defense that easily? A newbie town is usually very suspcicious and it was a really silly defense, at the very best null. Using "player" and "people" sounds awkward? How isn't that an obvious lie? + Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 20:12 kushm4sta wrote: 2. My supposed scumslip: huh? What else should I have called you? Player? Person? Maybe but to me those things sound awkward. Townie just seemed like the most non awkward word to use. Innocent until proven guilty. That's how we do it in America bro.
As for the other lurkers, I don't find Remedy suspicious, rather the opposite although his post count is still low. Nothing really stuck out to me the same way Djo did when reading Omn's and Corrosion's filter. Also, the reason why no one is addressing kush's "scum for life" and "I saved you" posts to me is because the argument is pure WIFOM. Kush was scum. For that reason, we have to look at scum motivations 1) He was giving away his partner and throwing the game away. I believe he didn't give up on the game since he was mafia. Otherwise, he would most likely be punished for his actions in the game. Also, he is experienced. He isn't a dumb noob that would give up. He was willing to take the sack as scum last game when people started reading him as scum (although it never came to that). 2) He was attempting to set up someone who had "soft defended" him so that it would lead to a mislynch the next day.This point can be easily turned into WIFOM. Why would you believe the words of a confirmed scum? The purpose of mafia is to disrupt the the town and turn townies against each other. Number two fulfills that purpose.
Notice how he doesn't address the defense of kush to comment only on the WIFOM. He really cannot mention or comment on that point. It incriminates him too much. And on a side note, I came at him with pure WIFOM arguments and he doesn't even have the decency of OGMusing me ? My guess is that he cannot build a case against me for two reasons:
- his scumslip about me being town. When I get lynch and turns out town, people are going to remember this scumslip.
- he doesn't want to be called mafia for OMGusing. But I would totally deserve it honestly. If someone was tunneling me as much as I tunnel debears, I bet I would have do some OMGus.
Just look how he is all washy-washy about me. I'm betting he would love someone to build a case against me ^^
On October 01 2012 15:16 debears wrote:
Djo - Hard to read. He goes back and forth. I don't like how he is latching to kush's posts about saving me and the scum team for life. He would be assuming that kush was throwing the game or he is entering a WIFOM disaster. Null but he's not helping himself
But don't worry guys, I'm tunneling for a greater good. Because debears is Mafia !
|
Ok guys, forget about my case right now and keep it for tomorrow. I'm going to switch my vote on Alsn because I'm pretty sure there is enough people right now on this thread to react if mafia tries to cause a last second no-lynch. I promised you some explanations for such a switch so I'll just write them before going to bed but don't expect me to participate anymore than that. I've been working more than 12 hours today and it's already 3am in Korea...
##Vote: Alsn
|
@debears
If you are really town, please find me an explanation why kush and the mafia team didn't try to create a counter wagon on you with the help of the Z-BosoN case ?
And you stated that you respect kush as player. So please explain me why he's cracking under the pressure after two votes against him ?
|
[b]Please modkill Lesrah hard ![b][/green][/green]
|
|
I would like to get some sleep now so I'm not going to go through the filter of Alsn nor the whole thread right now to find my own points againts him. I must admit that I'm just sheeping on this last vote and I'm disappointed that we couldn't lynch debears instead.
First let me say that I'm getting a very strong town read on Z-BosoN and I really like his posts and his cases. I might be too gullible for a newbie but he definitively has an influence on my thinking process while I read the thread. Like him, I'm pretty much sure that debears/Alsn is our scumteam but I spent much more thinking time into debears.
So, here are the main reasons why I think Alsn deserves also a lynch: [list] [*]Townies should be concise. He obviously fails at it. I feel like he is trying to cluster the thread on purpose [*]Townies should scumhunt. They are not afraid of making bold accusations. He lacks these townies traits. [*]Association case with Kush. Please refer to the following post from Z-BosoN + Show Spoiler +On September 30 2012 17:13 Z-BosoN wrote:So I woke up a couple of hours earlier than I should have. Instead of going back to sleep, I decide to go read some filters. Sometimes I hate this game rofl. Anyways, I will agree with one thing DP said, alsn is scummy as shit. Look at his stance on kush throughout the thread. Brief timeline here: ACT I - Kush. If you are scummy like last game, I will lynch you no matter what.+ Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 16:54 Alsn wrote:Hey everyone, just woke up and was about to check when the game was supposed to start. Imagine my surprise when it's already started! Although looking closely the game started as I went to sleep, so I wouldn't have been able to participate until now either way. So in any case, I'm Alsn, I like logic. My previous mafia games so far amount to a single one, a game where I was NKd N1 as Vanilla Townie. My filter for that game can be found here. Other than that I have only ever played SC2 Mafia in any significant amounts(a game while using the same core rules, plays extremely different due to the time constraints and limits on discussion). If you are interested, I was also active in the /obs QT discussion of NMMXXVII which can be found here. So, with that out of the way, I read the first few posts and saw that this game continues the trend of lurker policy lynching. I agree that there needs to be pressure on scum to actually post, since without scum posts to analyse all the scumhunting in the world will almost certainly only turn up townies(due to lurkers generally being null reads). That said, I followed Tl Mafia LVII wherein there was a lot of discussion about lynching "trolly meta" players and I would like to take that one step further. Kush, while I realize that you have a posting style which by its nature is very confrontational and inflammatory, I feel that unless you actually provide some concrete analysis without using almost purely OMGUS argumentation that it is in town's best interest to just straight up lynch you right away. Simply put, unless your cases actually provide substance then I think you will just be a late game liability for town, mostly giving everyone a null read and potentially forcing people to make a town or scum read on you without having much of an idea what you are. So to sum up, kush, I can definitely forgive you for your "style" of posting but I will not under any circumstance forgive you for posting shitty content, just like I will not forgive anyone else for doing so either. Understand that I'm not singling you out as a target, I'm using your history as an example for what I consider scummy play. Now, on to actually read the thread and see if I can respond to something. ACT II - It is as we feared. Kush has defiled us all. FOS Kush+ Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 17:56 Alsn wrote:Wow, upon reading the thread I realise that kush has been following the exact pattern I just now specified to be the way not to play if he wanted to absolve himself in my eyes. In fact, I could go back to my initial posts to him in NMMXXV saying almost the exact same thing. As such, I think I have no choice but to cast a: FoS kushm4stakush, in order for me to let up, I want you to stop it with your ridiculous knee-jerk play and actually point out why you think other people are scummy as opposed to why you yourself is so obviously town. While the following idiom is quite ironic in a forum game, actions speak louder than words and you defending yourself is just that, meaningless words. Start proving to everyone that you are concerned with finding scum instead of worrying about your silly streak. That being said, I think everyone else is jumping the gun here, kush is an extremely easy target to pick on, especially since he almost never seems to think before he posts. The scumslip that Darth and others pointed out can definitely be seen as damning. However, I am not inclined to agree with the following post from Darth: Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 13:46 DarthPunk wrote:I am not flaming Kush. I am legitimately scum hunting. The contrast in this situation, to the one with shiao, are so stark that there is no point even bringing it up. You will know when I am flaming when you see it, and even then it is not really that big a scum tell. I can tell the difference between Scummy town and actual scum, and it is not 'illogical' to be able to do this. Kush right now is not scummy town. He has slipped HUGELY. He is conforming to his previous scum meta. Seriously...
There is no explanation for his town read on me. The only reason he would say that is if he was scum. This last part seems to overly simplify the matter to me. The only reason? I myself can see a few reasons, but I would like kush to reply himself before I comment further as I don't want to give him an easy out. I can state for the record that unless kush shapes up considerably, I'm all in favour of lynching him. Simply because him playing like his normal self would be a liability for town later on due to his inclination to just defend himself over hunting scum. However, I definitely want to give him the benefit of the doubt and allow him to actually try and show that he has town's best interest in mind. So until then, while I definitely would like everyone to share their reads on kush so far, that is not enough for D1. We need to start exploring different possibilities because if we decide to lynch kush and he flips green, spending all of D1 talking about him will put us back at square one minus two townies. I'll make another post within an hour or two on another topic as I think I've made myself perfectly clear on where I stand on kush, but right now I need breakfast. ACT III - DarthPunk, you are going overboard on kush. I find you using ridiculous logic. How are you so sure of this and that? Hm.... I'll go with you being townie, ya know, for throwing yourself out there.+ Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 22:03 Alsn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 21:38 DarthPunk wrote:On September 28 2012 21:31 Alsn wrote: he has pointed out that he doesn't agree with your tunneling of kush. I find it astonishing that you 'interpret' debears' post that way in context of your view of Z-Boson. The way in which you paraphrase things whilst obscuring the truth/ put your own angle on things has me very concerned. Astonishing how? I would like you to explain what's so amazingly pro-town about tunneling kush from the very beginning. I find the risks of that approach to be very high from a town perspective. There are two scenarios: A) He flips green, and unless he during the day completely changed his character we will have almost no way of distinguishing who among the people who pushed for his lynch were scum and who were town. B) He flips scum, at this point I just don't find that likely enough to risk A) happening. That fact alone is enough for me to see that post of debears as entirely reasonable, since both of you at the time were basically calling out kush for every single post he was making(for good reason, but not if that's the only thing you are doing). + Show Spoiler +On September 29 2012 00:24 Alsn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 22:39 DarthPunk wrote:On September 28 2012 22:03 Alsn wrote:On September 28 2012 21:38 DarthPunk wrote:On September 28 2012 21:31 Alsn wrote: he has pointed out that he doesn't agree with your tunneling of kush. I find it astonishing that you 'interpret' debears' post that way in context of your view of Z-Boson. The way in which you paraphrase things whilst obscuring the truth/ put your own angle on things has me very concerned. Astonishing how? I would like you to explain what's so amazingly pro-town about tunneling kush from the very beginning. I find the risks of that approach to be very high from a town perspective. There are two scenarios: A) He flips green, and unless he during the day completely changed his character we will have almost no way of distinguishing who among the people who pushed for his lynch were scum and who were town. B) He flips scum, at this point I just don't find that likely enough to risk A) happening. That fact alone is enough for me to see that post of debears as entirely reasonable, since both of you at the time were basically calling out kush for every single post he was making(for good reason, but not if that's the only thing you are doing). I was not just looking at Kush. I was looking at the reactions to my case on kush also, Namely debears. As far as I am concerned Kush is scum and therefore it is best for town to lynch him. I like to focus on one thing at a time. Especially when he is incredibly scummy and has SCUM SLIPPED It is a common scum hunting technique and has been recommended in Several postgames. Obviously It was not to the exclusion of all others because I am now looking at you and debears. If there was nothing to go on I would have changed tac. Turns out he is scum. So I try and get him lynched. Savvy? On September 28 2012 22:03 Alsn wrote: That fact alone is enough for me to see that post of debears as entirely reasonable, since both of you at the time were basically calling out kush for every single post he was making(for good reason, but not if that's the only thing you are doing). So you don't find Kush likely to flip scum? good to know. Z -Boson hardly called out kush. I made a case. I was not tunnelling. (but I see that is the misconception you are trying to present) If by some miracle he flips green there is still a lot of info to go off. Your premise iswrong and thus your conclusions are wrong. I was calling out Kush for good reason? and at the same time Debears was entirely reasonable in shutting that down? ##FoS ALSN Given the evidence so far no, I don't, and frankly I don't see why that's so hard to believe. Given his history, it should be easy to see for anyone that while he has different town and scum metas(as pointed out by Hapahauli in the obs QT of NMMXVII), his comments so far this game is entirely in line with the way he usually posts during D1. Basically just writing up whatever is on his mind. That to me doesn't really increase or decrease the chances of him flipping either way(but the setup of the game says all else being equal, 75% of the players are green, 25% are scum) Yes, you called him out for good reason because his arguments(like so many times before this game) make little to no sense. But right now the only thing I really agree actually points to him being scum is what you call his scum slip. I just do not agree with you of just how damning that statement is. The first thing that sprang to mind when I saw you quoting that was simply that townie was an odd word to use, why not use player? But a confirmed scum slip? Come on, it's not like he said something that is entirely outside the realm of possibility for a town player to say. "Townie" wouldn't be the word I'd use, but I just can't see it as that obvious a scum slip. I'll accept that you are not necessarily wrong for thinking so however. Given that there are no other developments then sure, I'll admit that there's at least a higher chance of kush being scum than a random lurker being scum. But I would really like it if we could at least try to get better odds than that. Best case scenario for me would be actually having everyone talk, present cases and opinions and if no one else presents themselves as scummy, then and only then will I roll the dice on kush. Remember, there are 3 scum, not only one. Who knows, if he's scum as you say, he might look even scummier by lynch time. The case being what it is with kush, I can see now that what you were doing wasn't tunneling per se. However, I think you are doing the very thing you are accusing me of doing where you say debears was trying to "shut down" the case against kush. Like I've said several times now, that's not at all how I interpreted it, only that we shouldn't limit ourselves to a single discussion topic which at the time I felt debears was trying to suggest. Something that I happen to agree with. Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 22:39 DarthPunk wrote:I made a case. I was not tunnelling. (but I see that is the misconception you are trying to present) If by some miracle he flips green there is still a lot of info to go off. Your premise iswrong and thus your conclusions are wrong. This statement makes little sense to me. You say you were not tunneling, which I can now appreciate as probably true, but up until recently was not clear at all to me(and probably not to anyone else either). You had made quite a lot of posts in a row with kush as the only topic, as well as trying to convince others in the thread that he absolutely, 100%, no doubt whatsoever must be scum. I didn't find it unreasonable that someone would point that fact out to you. My "premise" was simply that if I find an argument reasonable, someone else trying to poke holes in that argument might not have the same motivations as myself, thus they are suspicious. The bolded line is ridiculous however, especially in context with the sentence before it. What makes you so sure that we would have "a lot of info to go off" in the case of everyone tunneling kush and us lynching him? My A) vs. B) scenario that you are referring to was dependent on the hypothetical scenario of everyone tunneling kush(which I already explained seemed to be where things were going at the time). I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you misunderstood what I was trying to say instead of deliberately using a red herring to try and discredit me. With that in mind, based on your willingness to put yourself out there, I have a slight town read on you. INTERLUDE --- kush goes ape shit. Ravages town with his treachery. Denies every chance he has to be saved, and wails incessantly. The ACT I prophecy was correct. However... ACT IV - It is as I feared. Everyone is voting for kush with little discussion. I dislike this lynch. I'm ok with lynching kush, but I wanna lynch my biggest scum read. You know, the one I don't have. Also, I think that scum wouldn't just go ahead and bus. You know, they would probably most likely trying to find another solution other than bussing. You know, like the thing I'm trying to do right now.+ Show Spoiler +On September 29 2012 18:17 Alsn wrote: First, I'd like to start things with stating so far D1 has pretty much lived up to my exact nightmare scenario that I speculated about when arguing with DP yesterday. Everyone is voting kush with only very little discussion about any other topic(mainly, the debears-boson exchange).
Looking at the vote count, the last official count says 7, and now corrosion added his vote for a total of 8. With myself that would be 9, the exact number of town in this game. From my point of view, unless kushm4sta, Djodref and Lesrah are the 3 scum, there are scum pushing this lynch.
Given that, I'm really starting to dislike this lynch. I agree however that kush has been mostly concerned with defending himself against perceived injustice rather than actually trying to hunt scum, this still does not convince me that he is scum. Lynching scum with an overwhelming majority D1 just seems like way too improbably. Sure, if we had to fight tooth and nail to get 7 votes, I might buy it, but that's not the case. It seems to me there must be scum sheeping onto this lynch.
Like I've stated before I can go along with the kush lynch, but I'd rather try and lynch my top scum read at this point and with the current developments, I see a kush lynch more as a last resort than my main scum read. Unfortunately, this argument is only available to people who have yet to vote and are town, as well as to scum since other than myself only scum are aware of my alignment. For everyone else, the "unless a, b and c are scum" argument will include me.
My argument is at least enough to convince myself, so I'll be scouring the thread for the next couple of hours to see if my "gut scum reads" so far have any merit and if so push that/those case(s) instead. If it turns out that they are going nowhere, I will vote kush. But I still feel we have enough time to at least have a discussion on the topic of "just wtf is going on here?!". On September 29 2012 18:28 Alsn wrote: A quick addendum, I'm aware that scum pushing the lynch does not exonerate kush since they could be bussing him. However, given the assumption that kush is scum and there are active scum among the voters, I just find it more likely that they would try and find another solution than bussing, especially since it's D1. That's my main reason for not being convinced that kush is scum. ACT V - The resolve. I've had a vision. It is inevitable, kush must be lynched. I have realized the errors of my ways and it is imperative that kush is lynched.+ Show Spoiler +On September 29 2012 21:15 Alsn wrote: I've been doing some soul searching and I'm starting to agree that it's not worth it to try and push any other cases right now.
Mostly because my entire premise was that I was thinking it to be unlikely for kush to be scum. I realise that after trying to put into words why I think that is so, I have nothing other than the fact that I "feel" him to be town, which is a really stupid reason for absolving him. I thought I could back it up by saying he's been pressured to hard, there's no way he's responsible for not scum hunting. But in the end, I can't find a logical reason to forgive him if I exclude my own gut feeling from the equation.
I think now that my best option is to hold on to whatever small reads I have(because while I have some suspicions, I don't think they are rock solid) until after the lynch is over. Because at least then, we will have more information.
So for now, although my gut is screaming at me, I'll commit to voting for kush, mostly because most of what I said about BosoN has returned somewhat satisfactory answers, I really don't like the way a lot of people got away with not basically posting anything at all(I'm looking at you, Djodref, corrosion, Omniscient, RemedySC). I think that's probably what irks me the most, the thing I was most hoping would not happen, did happen.
##Vote: kushm4sta sup scum? anyone?
Well, I cannot think of any more point now. Going to bed...
|
On October 03 2012 03:20 debears wrote: @Djo There are 3 possibilities I see from a mafia side.
1) The mafia planned a bus and stuck with the plan 2) The mafia was afk at the time the case started to really build up 3) The mafia were afraid of starting a counter wagon
The most likely one to me are 2 or 3, but speculating is just WIFOM. We don't know.
Well I don't see why kush should feel the urge of defending you in the cases 2 or 3. I still think that my explanations make more sense.
So I see only 2 possibilities right now:
- you are scum
- the scumteam decided to bus kush really early game and set you up as their first opportunity
I hope you don't mind if I keep on pushing your lynch to have my answers By the way, I admire the patience you are showing towards me ^^
If you turn out to be town (my estimate is a 5% chance), I would be glad to reconsider all my town reads and to apology.
|
Good morning everybody !
[joke]
Please have a look at my last post about Lesrah. I've just corrected the formatting
On October 03 2012 03:10 Djodref wrote: Please modkill Lesrah hard !
I think I deserve some town credit for this post. I also was the one asking the most for news about Lesrah in this game !
[/joke]
On a serious note, I think it adds more weight to my explanations about kush state of mind and why he exploded. Could you imagine yourself win a game when you have two votes and serious scumslip against you, your partner has also one vote and the last one is just the lurkiest player you have ever seen (all this in the first 24h of the game) ?
I'm almost sure he was genuinely cracking now. He was so proud of his unkilled, undefeated streak. That made him gamethrow and give away his partner. So, debears, how about you concede now ? This game is kinda lame anyway...
@Alsn
I'm sorry, I should not have been sheeping like this. Rest in peace !
|
@debears
I'm not going to be stupid so I'm going to prepare for the eventuality of you being town. We are now 8 townies against one scum so I guess it's not going to be easy to find him if it's not you. By the way, who is the last scum on your opinion ?
I'm going to look closely on the players who would have benefited from a hypothetical strategic bus of kush. Would you at least agree that it's very unlikely that kush wasn't strategically bussed if you are not scum ?
@everyone
Please somebody kill debears tonight, I don't want to lose my sanity into the dark shadows of WIFOM...
|
On October 03 2012 13:12 debears wrote:@Shady Show nested quote +On October 03 2012 10:01 Shady Sands wrote: Alright, since Lesrah wasn't posting through D2 then that means that if debears was the other scum there was no other scum trying to stop his lynch. Hence the lack of opposition to his lynch becomes less of a town-tell to me. This, coupled with the earlier case on him (which he hasn't adequately responded to, imo) makes me view him as scum.
## Vote debears
Heading out for the night. If I don't make it back by daypost, cop please check omni or remedy and remember it is possible GF is last mafia. That's all, glhf. If you believe I'm the last scum, why wouldn't you nightcheck me?
@debears
It looks like you are throwing a WIFOM question to the guy who has just voted you. Are you trying to confuse him ? Also are you trying to make some blue slipping ?
I would also like to remind you that Shady has replaced corrosion who was one of your scumreads. How can you even imagine that he could be cop ?
|
|
|
|