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On November 03 2012 04:09 gonzaw wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 10:12 Keirathi wrote: lol @ gonzaw
What did you expect me to do? I said 3 hours ago that I was going to vote for BKE unless people would consolidate onto you. Yea, my vote was at the end of the day, but its not like I didn't say I wasn't going to consolidate if I needed to. The only other option was to just not vote and get modkilled; is that what you wanted? I don't understand the faux anger. How about not coming with a "ninja-vote" right before the deadline and vote before that? When I was skimming the thread I was too busy trying to figure out the Mementos/BKE issue so I didn't pay much attention to it, but I kind of thought you were getting modkilled/replaced like that Djingu guy. Why didn't you vote BKE when you made that huge post saying you wanted to lynch BKE for instance? Why did you wait until the last second to vote? Because I wanted to see if there was any support for lynching you instead.
You still haven't responded to BH's case (or my addition points), btw.
Why did you spent so much time tunneling day 1, when your townie meta is to be suspicious of EVERYONE while gradually making town reads?
Also, I suggest you read http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=376602&user=265522
Hell, you should probably read Aperture again too, and compare it to Liquid City which was running at the EXACT SAME TIME. Aperture was an anomaly in my play style, not the norm.
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Keirathi, here's the post I made yesterday in response to BH's case about Adam.
On November 02 2012 00:32 strongandbig wrote:
Just read through his filter a couple of times, it's not very long.
K, here's one thing - he starts off with his "meta argument" on BKE, but then drops the read for no reason when he moves on to mementoss. Later, he says "BKE isn't scum to him," I would very much like to know what in BKE's filter gave him that impression because (as I outlined in my previous post) BKE's filter looks pretty terrible to me, and the worst parts are the parts that came after Adam's "meta read".
Mementoss case, I find pretty unpersuasive, I think that comparing pre-game and in-game enthusiasm levels is a valid tactic. "Not posting much of value" or "not having strong opinions" can be a decent case to make if it's clear and pronounced but it's hardly unique to Mementoss at the moment, I would contend that BKE, Djagulingu, maybe hopeless also fall into that category.
Oh, something else - he promises very early on to be like super active, but he is far less active than many other people.
Putting the shoe on the other foot, however, his claims about the meta component to your case are pretty compelling. Qualifying that - I know your case is not mainly based on meta anymore. Really, however, unless you disagree with him that his more recent games are different from your claim about his meta, it should be recognized that that element of the case on him is weak.
Something else you argue - he did originally take a position against BKE and later backtrack on it. Though I've said above that I don't understand why he backtracked, and though I really want to hear his reasoning, and though I think it's scummy to backtrack from one position and jump on another one without explaining yourself, I do think that at least taking a position is better than not taking a position, even if there is scummy backtracking.
After this post, Adam has posted a few more times. Most of the "word volume" in there was in a couple of big posts about Gonzaw's vote on Mementoss. The main thing is a connection theory, I guess, based on the argument "mementoss is scum, gonzaw withheld his vote on mementoss until he was sure that it wouldn't get mementoss lynched."
The problem with this is - I find his mementoss case not compelling, but he's still using it as the basis to build theories.
(that said - his gonzaw stuff is actually pretty interesting. Regardless of mementoss's alignment, it is pretty odd how Gonzaw withheld his vote like that. Even without the connection theory, there could be scum motivation there - maybe Gonzaw felt obligated to vote mementoss given his earlier posts, but didn't want to be held responsible for voting a townie?)
Then there's this post from Adam, which is scummy as all fuck IMO:
On November 02 2012 17:43 Adam4167 wrote: And as I have said, if you would like my opinion on a specific player, then simply ask. I do not post my thoughts for the sake of just posting as I find it needlessly inflates the thread.
If I was someone else thinking 'damn this Adam guy is scum' I'd be wrong, since he's not.
like a few things - "I don't post thoughts for the sake of just posting," if he was Gonzaw then this would be a valid sentiment but from the vast majority of players, more thread presence as a townie makes it easier to establish your innocence and helps the town.
Second, "if you want me to talk about anyone specific then ask" - I could be going against popular opinion here, but I think that while trying to get specific players to talk about each other is a townie thing to do - well, at least if you choose the two players correctly - I don't think just going "If you push me on something then I'll talk about it, but otherwise I'm gonna keep my mouth shut" is a very town thing to do.
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On November 03 2012 04:12 gonzaw wrote: S&B you know that just saying "give me points" is not that convincing? If you don't tell us what those points do or how they work then we can't know shit how you will use them.
If you are scum you can easily tell everybody to "give you points" and then keep them or do something anti-town with it and we would never know about it. It could even be a ruse and, like the show states, the points don't matter and you are making a big deal out of it just to spread confusion.
It's unlikely but it's possible, and I can't know if that's what's happening or not
I will tell you tomorrow exactly what I did with the points.
However, I will not tell you in advance - the reason why should be pretty obvious.
I think I've been pretty open and engaged with the thread, and the only reasons not to give me points are if you think you can do better with them or if you think that I'm scum. I don't think anyone can do better with them than I can, and I know I'm town and hope that other people know that as well.
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On November 03 2012 04:15 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 04:09 gonzaw wrote:On November 02 2012 10:12 Keirathi wrote: lol @ gonzaw
What did you expect me to do? I said 3 hours ago that I was going to vote for BKE unless people would consolidate onto you. Yea, my vote was at the end of the day, but its not like I didn't say I wasn't going to consolidate if I needed to. The only other option was to just not vote and get modkilled; is that what you wanted? I don't understand the faux anger. How about not coming with a "ninja-vote" right before the deadline and vote before that? When I was skimming the thread I was too busy trying to figure out the Mementos/BKE issue so I didn't pay much attention to it, but I kind of thought you were getting modkilled/replaced like that Djingu guy. Why didn't you vote BKE when you made that huge post saying you wanted to lynch BKE for instance? Why did you wait until the last second to vote? Because I wanted to see if there was any support for lynching you instead. You still haven't responded to BH's case (or my addition points), btw
I kind of forgot about them (with the whole BKE/Mementos thing), but I already told BH that in an early post. If you guys are just "oh gonzaw doesn't seem like town, he doesn't seem to play like I know he'd play as town" I'll ignore it. People do that shit against me every single game. Again, read Aperture 2 where like half the game FoSed me for similar reasons.
It's also something I can't respond to (the "you are not playing like you do as town!") because I am playing like I do as town so I can only think you guys are not reading very well or want to find any reason whatsoever to FoS me.
Why did you spent so much time tunneling day 1, when your townie meta is to be suspicious of EVERYONE while gradually making town reads?
If you look back I wasn't in the thread a long time. When I woke up and started the game it was pretty late (few hours from mid-D1). I thought you were scum and wanted people's opinion on it, but well instead got into an argument with BH about Adam and BH making that stupid "case" on me. After that I went to sleep and the next day I went to uni. You can't blame me for there not being anything interesting in the game and there not being active people to ask questions and pressure (when I was active only BH, Xfire and Hopeless were active I think, except that time mementos popped up). I also clearly am not "tunneling" you if you read my posts correctly. Saying that is a lie, I never tunnel anybody as town(i may be biased though, but I seriously don't think I've tunneled people for the sake of it, unless they were scum), just find them scummy as fuck and want peoples opinions on said player to make up my mind, and post my thoughts on said player and vote the player most likely to flip scum.
Hmm, okay I'll read them. I never read those games in Can't Believe and Aperture and didn't have much trouble figuring you out as town , but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here.
@S&B: What do you think of Keirathi, and also Mementos considering what happened on D1?
If you also find Adam's "theory" "interesting" then again, read the post where I post my thought process about it (since I couldn't post in-thread because of the restriction). If you have any doubts about it ask, but if you find Adam's theory interesting at least consider the post he conveniently ignored.
I take it you are still serious with the points thing? If what BH said is true and you can use the points to kill someone I may consider giving them to you if you discuss with us who to shoot.
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EBWOP:
Ninja'd.
Hmm, I'll think about the points thing.
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Okay, I gave S&B 500 points.
I can't do anything with them, and I think S&B is probably town. Or at least, nothing he has said this game has made me think otherwise.
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On November 03 2012 04:53 gonzaw wrote: I also clearly am not "tunneling" you if you read my posts correctly. Saying that is a lie, I never tunnel anybody as town(i may be biased though, but I seriously don't think I've tunneled people for the sake of it, unless they were scum), just find them scummy as fuck and want peoples opinions on said player to make up my mind, and post my thoughts on said player and vote the player most likely to flip scum.
Maybe tunneling is a bit strong of a word. But, the only person you questioned/accused for 90% of the day was me. Looking back through Not Themed, and Aperture, you were suspicious of everyone and questioning them constantly. You did finally settle on town reads on people and left them alone, but you didn't focus 90% of your attention onto one person at any point of day 1 in those games.
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Okay I've received enough points from Keirathi and one or more anonymous donors to ensure that I will not die tonight. Remember, the more you give, the more hurt we can put on the scums!
but in all seriousness - I've thought about this a lot and I'm pretty much sure that giving me points is the optimal move for town.
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I'm unsure about whether people should claim giving points in the thread. On the one hand, plausible deniability could be an asset later. On the other hand, if a lot of people claim giving points in the thread, it could put pressure on scum to do the same, which would be sick and awesome.
If you decide to give points publicly, you should do so using ##give points. That way we know that you're not just lying and saying you gave points, and taking credit for an anonymous donation. I can confirm however that I received an increment of 500 points, and since no one other than keirathi has claimed it yet I am pretty sure it was actually from him.
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On November 03 2012 04:24 strongandbig wrote:Then there's this post from Adam, which is scummy as all fuck IMO: Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 17:43 Adam4167 wrote: And as I have said, if you would like my opinion on a specific player, then simply ask. I do not post my thoughts for the sake of just posting as I find it needlessly inflates the thread.
If I was someone else thinking 'damn this Adam guy is scum' I'd be wrong, since he's not. like a few things - "I don't post thoughts for the sake of just posting," if he was Gonzaw then this would be a valid sentiment but from the vast majority of players, more thread presence as a townie makes it easier to establish your innocence and helps the town. Second, "if you want me to talk about anyone specific then ask" - I could be going against popular opinion here, but I think that while trying to get specific players to talk about each other is a townie thing to do - well, at least if you choose the two players correctly - I don't think just going "If you push me on something then I'll talk about it, but otherwise I'm gonna keep my mouth shut" is a very town thing to do.
This is not scum motivated. I will comment on things in the thread that I feel are worth mentioning, I will respond to direct questions when they are posed to me. I hate reading 15+ page long filters and I hate reading gigantic posts of waffle which contain every single thought that passes through a persons brain.
I will point you to the guide stuck at the top of this forum written by incognito and other exceptional players at this game:
On January 09 2012 15:49 Incognito wrote:Posting in the Thread A. General Posting Strategy Being an obvious innocent is worth a lot more than being an active but confused poster. Don’t babble. If you speak without having a clear goal in mind, you impede the town and decrease everyone else’s productivity. This paralyzes town analysis and decision-making and allows mafia to hide in the chaos. You don’t have to be a super-active poster to prove your innocence or be useful to the town. You do not need to be useful in an active and eye-popping way. Perhaps due to historical inactivity, TL Mafia players seem to have an unnatural urge to post everything that comes to mind in an attempt to avoid inactivity and keep the ball rolling. However, there are worse things than inactivity, and a game can hardly be called active if it is only the same 8 people repeating themselves in the thread. Your primary goal should be post quality rather than quantity. The game thread is not twitter. You don’t have to reply to every post or question you see with “@PlayerName”. Don’t try to say everything. Don’t respond to every point. (This means don’t post an analysis quoting all of your target’s posts!) This muddles your agenda and clutters up the thread. Stick to the important points.
Your concern to want me to post more is genuine though, so have my points:
##Give 1000 Points: strongandbig
If this gets me killed, then so be it. Hopefully you reread the thread with my flip in mind and use that information correctly.
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sorry im raelly drunk will wait dopmt to make opinos
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Nightpost will be late. Night still ends in 30 mins
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causwe evrytin gunna be alright
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To that mess of a post that gonzaw posted:
-Stop making gigantic posts, they are nigh on unreadable and a pain in the ass to quote.
-Yes, I retold exactly what you did with my interpretation of why you did it, that's called behavioural analysis, its an important part of forum mafia.
-You are trying to pin the BKE lynch on me? I was voting in the right direction, for Mementoss. I made my thoughts on both BKE and Mementoss crystal clear.
-That giant post of your 'thought process' stinks of insincerity. You clearly see that yesterdays lynch is to be decided by whoever is going to put down the next vote between you and kierathi, you say as much in the 4th line, but rather than take the lead and wear the consequences you sit on your vote for an hour and do nothing with it. Your posting restriction did not prevent you from being active in the voting thread and putting your vote on Mementoss, in line with YOUR OWN READS. At the time I thought it unnecessary to try and convince you to follow your own reads because they're your own freaking reads, and I expected you to follow them.
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I heard some feeling now I can ease the pain
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I cannot hear what your saying, when I have a child, I had a feeling, my hanf feelin like 2 baloons
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I have become cnforbatlyu numb
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Well I had a more lengthy post typed up but when TL went down I lost it. General gist of it was I don't quite see how it makes more sense to suggest viging Adam over the guy who waited until his vote was meaningless before casting it and not really putting up a fight to try and get his target chosen. I haven't checked his previous games yet so that might be in line with his meta but through my first read of the thread that really stood out the most.
I'm willing to give my trust to SnB atm because that seems like it would be something hard to fake. I don't quite get what the difference between doing 500 or more points is though.
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