Chrono Trigger Mafia
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
Also, need to mention that I won't be as active in the thread on Turkey Day (US Thanksgiving), no idea why I didn't mention that pre-game. For now I'll support kita for our party leader because he's so damn adorable. ... Plus in 30+ games I've never won a mayoral election. Give me the pity vote! <3 HOW CAN YOU NOT VOTE THIS MAN!? | ||
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On November 21 2012 11:01 Promethelax wrote: I see Acro has sniped me in terms of the idea of any potential leader posting their core group. Has anyone played in a similar set-up before? Or does anyone have the link to Resistance? I haven't read it. Based on the fact that Acro had the same though as me and from our last game together I would currently, put him in my team, along with Acro I would add Marv (come on, wouldn't you?) and as third player I would chose Hapa. Hapa is a guy who over many games I have come to like and respect though I once hated him. He is a great town player and a kinda crappy scum player, seems like the right guy to have along for the ride. TL:DR My team: Acro, Marv, Hapa I'm curious if putting one player who seems like a liability (one of the guys known for trolling or one of the smurfs) onto the team so that we can get a read on them from their actions makes sense? It seems like we won't have lynches but knowing who scum is/is not will help town players direct any and all actions which they have and i assume making sure that non-town players not being on the quest team will be a good thing for us as the OP specifies that they can make it more difficult to achieve our objectives. Barbs against my scum-play aside, I do endorse the idea of voting people who have very distinct scum/town play and are easily identifiable. Not exactly sure who these people are yet, but hey it's an idea =) | ||
Hapahauli
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On November 21 2012 11:06 Promethelax wrote: My post on the end of page twelve just got all covered up. Please go read it. Marv and Hapa, I'd love your thoughts on the idea of whether choosing a party based on player strength or obvious d1 townieness makes more sense and why that is so. ... Well the thing is that we have no idea what the mini-games will be. "Townieness" is obviously a really good thing to have in a party, but I don't know enough of the setup to know if electing a veteran will make much of a difference. What we should be discussing are potentially difficult choices we'll have to make regarding the party vote... is it better to vote: a) Obvious (but inexperienced) town player b) Active and skilled, but difficult to read veteran player TBH I'm rather torn since I don't know much about the setup. Going to have to dive into some of the host's previous games to get a feel for how this will work. | ||
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On November 21 2012 11:17 sandroba wrote: I hereby declare I want to lead you simpletons to victory. My party selection will be as following: I will choose 3 of the less known players who I read as town at the end of the day to compose the party. The reasoning is that this mechanic will greatly favor town in attempting to confirm players. This is better done for players less likely to get shot for 2 reasons: 1) They have less meta information available on them therefore harder to read. 2) Vets/Well known players are likely to get killed n1 if they are town, even more so given a successful mission, mitigating some of the advantage town might get. This serves to both preserve the good/known players and to keep the confirmed/likely town around longer. I'd like everyone to chime in on this subject of party selection and help come to the optimum way of doing things. So you want to form a party of people you and three "obviously town but inexperienced" players you are free to manipulate? Thanks but no thanks. | ||
Hapahauli
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Well to elaborate on that sandro, I don't find it to be a good idea to have a vet + 3 less-experienced players on the same team. The vet will have a lot of persuasive authority over the rest of the team and it probably won't be a very effective way to think through these mini-games. Unless the vet was super-obvious-town or something, I'm wary of such a party setup | ||
Hapahauli
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On November 21 2012 11:22 sandroba wrote: As far as I know I have no way of manipulating them without the use of this thread. Wouldn't that instantly out me in the thread? I typed some sensible stuff and you just twisted it to make it seems suspicious. I wonder why that is. Oh I kinda assumed the party would be working together // communicating in some capacity outside of the general town. I probably should read Resistance and figure out how this works instead of running my mouth | ||
Hapahauli
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On November 21 2012 11:29 sandroba wrote: Well I can tell people are town pretty consistently (even more so than finding who is scum), so I will select less likely to get shot players who I have a town read on to take on the mission .I don't see what's confusing about that. Well the problem is that it requires the town to place a great deal of trust in you. I'm not sure of how distinguishable your meta is, but I'm very hesitant of placing so much trust//power in a person so early in the game. I think scum will shoot certain players, regardless if they are considered town or not by the majority, if they are town quite early. That makes them not so good targets to be "confirmed" early on because it's a waste. If scum chooses to shoot the "likely town" group assuming I succeed in the mission, it preserves the town vets. If they choose to shoot the town vets it preserves the "likely town" group. I hope this helps clear it up. I really don't understand this at all. Do the mini-games "confirm" people as town or something? Otherwise, I really don't get this at all. | ||
Hapahauli
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On November 21 2012 11:36 sandroba wrote: The OP says the sucess of the misson depends on a weighted sum of town/mafia players assigned to it. That means that if a mission was successful most likely at least 3 out of 4 players in were town. Ahhhhhh that makes sense. I thought the missions involved actions from the parties themselves, but it looks like they're just a different voting method of sorts. Gotcha. So yes, it probably does make sense to put in townie people in the missions at all costs. Though I'm still very-weary about letting you make those decisions alone. | ||
Hapahauli
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Hapahauli
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Your point is? It's not like I'm making a read - we're still almost entirely in setup speculation no? | ||
Hapahauli
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On November 21 2012 11:51 Keirathi wrote: It's just a super weird change of opinion from "You're suspicious for even suggesting that." to "Okay, I actually like that idea, let's do it" Ok, but again, your point is? Do you disagree with me or something? If so, speak up. Otherwise, these random passive accusations are pointless and stupid. | ||
Hapahauli
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On November 21 2012 11:53 kitaman27 wrote: ... We also have the option as town to enforce an additional party member selection vote. This limits the power of a single player, but it makes it easier for the mafia to sneak in one of their own in the 3rd of 4th slot. I think I'd rather put faith in the elected leader, to avoid the manipulation, assuming myself or my candidate of choice is elected. I'm not sure if I like the idea of a "general town vote" for a slot. It's just plain unenforcable - the town leader can just disagree, and what are we going to do... lynch the party leader everyone voted because they thought he/she was town? | ||
Hapahauli
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On November 21 2012 12:04 Keirathi wrote: Why are you getting defensive? There was a very simple reasoning for your change of opinion, which was already obvious; you thought events required some interaction from the players. Once you realized they didn't, you happily changed your mind. Of course I knew that, but I called you out anyways to see how you would react, and that wasn't the correct way. My goal is to be narrowing down who I plan to vote as party leader. Yes, I already said I will most likely vote marv, but there are definitely other options. You being one of them. But this exchange pushes you down my list a ways. Damnit you hurt my feelings - you will not be getting my vote either so THERE! But why do you want to vote marv? Did you miss the entire discussion over the last few pages? Ideally we want to vote a veteran who is easy to read and we can be clear on his/her motives. Marv is certainly a veteran, but not someone I can read convincingly enough after 1 day of play to be sure of his motives. | ||
Hapahauli
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Clarity, i would agree with you if Hapa's reaction to Kier's questions had been what I expect from a town Hapa but it wasn't. My short list is a little bit shorter. Why would you vote anyone you don't have a town read on?[Quote] Well what exactly did you expect? I feel like everyone has their own little different version of what my town meta is like =P [Quote]Hapa: what kind of player would get your vote? Not Kier, Not Marv...who?[/Quote] As previously stated, a strong-town player (vet) that has a very distinguishable meta. The player in my mind that fits this the most is Sandro, though it seems pointless to make a decision right now when the day is still young. | ||
Hapahauli
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On November 21 2012 12:16 Promethelax wrote: Clarity, i would agree with you if Hapa's reaction to Kier's questions had been what I expect from a town Hapa but it wasn't. My short list is a little bit shorter. Why would you vote anyone you don't have a town read on? Well what exactly did you expect? I feel like everyone has their own little different version of what my town meta is like =P Hapa: what kind of player would get your vote? Not Kier, Not Marv...who? As previously stated, a strong-town player (vet) that has a very distinguishable meta. The player in my mind that fits this the most is Sandro, though it seems pointless to make a decision right now when the day is still young. | ||
Hapahauli
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On November 21 2012 12:25 Promethelax wrote: I would expect an explanation from you, Hapa, as to why you mind changed. Not an explanation from someone else while you got mad about being asked. My version of your town meta is where you pressure people until they cry and admit that they are scum or poop themselves in fear of your tunnels even though they are town. What's there to explain? If you insist on one, I changed my mind when I finally figured out how the setup worked and realized I was just spouting nonsensical assumptions about the party system. [Quote]hapa: How many games have you played with Sandro that make you aware of, and able to read, his meta? .../QUOTE] None. Truth be told, I haven't even read through any of his games. Someone mentioned on one of the previous pages that he was supposedly easy to read, so I'm just going off that for now. @ Kier [QUOTE]On November 21 2012 12:17 Keirathi wrote: I said I would vote marv, barring a scummy vibe from him. And, yes, I feel I have a decent grasp of when marv is acting scummy. The key is, though, that I thoroughly trust marv's ability to make town reads. In the event that he is scum, though, even a scum marv can't afford to pick other scum without some damn good reasoning that they are town, which I believe could be seen through.[/QUOTE] No, nonononononnono. No. First of all, marv is really aware of this part of his game and already compensated for it (i.e. "town read" on iamperfection in GSL III). Second of all, don't trust a hypothetical scum marv to include town people on the team. Hell for all we know electing a scum member as the party leader could be an auto-mission fail. We need to vote someone as party leader who we are sure is town. Not rationalize picking a vet because he makes accurate "town reads" as either alignment. That's fucking stupid. | ||
Hapahauli
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+ Show Spoiler + @ Prom: On November 21 2012 12:25 Promethelax wrote: I would expect an explanation from you, Hapa, as to why you mind changed. Not an explanation from someone else while you got mad about being asked. My version of your town meta is where you pressure people until they cry and admit that they are scum or poop themselves in fear of your tunnels even though they are town. What's there to explain? If you insist on one, I changed my mind when I finally figured out how the setup worked and realized I was just spouting nonsensical assumptions about the party system. hapa: How many games have you played with Sandro that make you aware of, and able to read, his meta? ... None. Truth be told, I haven't even read through any of his games. Someone mentioned on one of the previous pages that he was supposedly easy to read, so I'm just going off that for now. @ Kier On November 21 2012 12:17 Keirathi wrote: I said I would vote marv, barring a scummy vibe from him. And, yes, I feel I have a decent grasp of when marv is acting scummy. The key is, though, that I thoroughly trust marv's ability to make town reads. In the event that he is scum, though, even a scum marv can't afford to pick other scum without some damn good reasoning that they are town, which I believe could be seen through. No, nonononononnono. No. First of all, marv is really aware of this part of his game and already compensated for it (i.e. "town read" on iamperfection in GSL III). Second of all, don't trust a hypothetical scum marv to include town people on the team. Hell for all we know electing a scum member as the party leader could be an auto-mission fail. We need to vote someone as party leader who we are sure is town. Not rationalize picking a vet because he makes accurate "town reads" as either alignment. That's fucking stupid. | ||
Hapahauli
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On November 21 2012 12:48 TheChronicler wrote: Alright, it's probably just bad. I just wanted to spread it out b/c I don't want to elect a scum person and have them controlling everything. If the leader's scum, we're probably screwed for the mission regardless of what the voting system is. Voting systems in this game seem completely unenforceable. @ Kei On November 21 2012 12:45 Keirathi wrote: You have a point here. We don't actually know what would happen if scum is elected party leader for an event. However, if the consensus is to elect a "vet" as party leader, I trust my ability to read marv correctly more than I trust my ability to read any of syllo/sandro/Toad/whoever correctly. In the event that I feel like marv is giving off scummy vibes, I would be super hesitant to vote to elect any of the other "vets", and would then vote for someone else that I am comfortable reading. I'd like to think I know marv's meta as much as anyone here, but I'm still nowhere near as comfortable as you are reading him on Day 1. He's capable of doing some crazy shenanigans as scum early on. Lastly, I'm a bit surprised you're willing to dismiss voting all those other potential vets without having looked into them. For all we know they could have really transparent metas. | ||
Hapahauli
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On November 21 2012 13:06 goodkarma wrote: ... Goodkarma for President: As your leader, I will do my best to further the policy of choosing the most obvious townies as detailed above. Along those lines, I would elect to choose both sandroba and promethelax for my party. The third is still tentative, as the game has only been going for a short time. Why are you pre-determining who to include in your party right now? Certainly you couldn't have THAT strong of a town read on the both of them. | ||
Hapahauli
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Welcome! As distinguishable as you are, that's not the only thing we're looking for in a party leader. I'd prefer someone with a very strong track-record of accurate D1 town reads. You're definitely someone that can be read early and be a party candidate though. @ Kei You're right, he is capable of pulling off big plays as scum, even day 1. But it's not like I'm giving him a town read already, nor do I plan to vote him until I do. I'm paranoid as fuck when it comes to him, but again, I'm much more confident in my ability to read him than I am any of the other vets, purely because I am extremely familiar with how marv thinks and acts. Err... but you said... On November 21 2012 12:14 Keirathi wrote: --Quote Pyramid Omitted-- I said I would vote marv, barring a scummy vibe from him. And, yes, I feel I have a decent grasp of when marv is acting scummy. The key is, though, that I thoroughly trust marv's ability to make town reads. In the event that he is scum, though, even a scum marv can't afford to pick other scum without some damn good reasoning that they are town, which I believe could be seen through. Do explain good sir. | ||
Hapahauli
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On November 21 2012 13:22 Keirathi wrote: What is there to explain? Both of those things you bolded say the exact same thing :o 1) "I'm not going to vote marv unless I have a town read on him." 2) "I'm going to vote someone unless he's giving me a 'scummy vibe.'" Those two statements mean very different things. The first expresses reservation - that you're not going to vote someone UNLESS you have a town read on them. The second expresses no hesitancy - that you're vote is determined unless marv shows you otherwise. | ||
Hapahauli
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Ah that makes sense. I'm still don't care for such early D1 town reads, but that's just my own attitude and nothing to hold you accountable for. @ Z-Bo On November 21 2012 13:25 Z-BosoN wrote: Oh-oh Kei. That's not something you just go ahead and say to sir. Hapa the interpretator. That guy is such a proser. Ok ok I know I super-tunneled you that one game based on stupid wordings and such, but this one seems a lot more clear-cut no? Like those two statements do not mean the same thing at all. | ||
Hapahauli
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How goes it Dieno? Other than your fluffiness and cuteness, what will you bring to the town as party leader? | ||
Hapahauli
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On November 21 2012 13:31 Keirathi wrote: Okay, I guess I see what you're getting at. Just poor wording on my part, I guess. But really, there is no "neutral" ground for me when it comes to marv. Either I believe that he is town, or he is giving off scummy vibes that give me pause. I still don't understand this. This implies that you would never be unsure about your read on marv - on D1 of all days. Part of me has a really hard time believing that this is the same Kei as in GSL III - the one who was uber reluctant and helpless on D1 to make a read on anyone in the game. On November 21 2012 13:32 iamperfection wrote: also by the way i have a town read on Dienosore no nooby scum gonna come in here like that. Yeah Dieno has to be town. I know I semi-attacked GK for similar reads but hell, I can't resist. He's so cuddly. | ||
Hapahauli
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On November 21 2012 13:51 Keirathi wrote: Quit asking for people to read you and play naturally. You did that shit in GSL 3, where you specifically asked me to give a read of you since I am very good at picking up when you are town or not. Just don't. He's just campaigning to be party-leader // party-member atm - nothing he's doing is remotely out of line or "annoying." | ||
Hapahauli
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On November 21 2012 14:05 Keirathi wrote: It doesn't imply that I would never be unsure of my read on marv at all. I'm much more likely to be paranoid towards marv when he says something fishy (aka 'scummy vibes') than I am for someone like kush, because I know town kush can say really stupid things (no offense kush <3). And, if you remember, day 1 in GSL 3 was a nightmare for me IRL. I had a ton of family shit going on, and I was playing 90% of the game from my phone, which meant I wasn't able to go filter diving, or even devote very much time to the game. I'm not averse to making comfortable day 1 reads, but I generally make them really conservatively. Conservative reads + no time to play meant I was useless. Oh you're totes right on GSL III - completely forgot. Well I still don't understand the marv thing, but I don't think it makes you scummy. And that is my cue to hit the sack - gnite! | ||
Hapahauli
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On November 21 2012 14:06 Z-BosoN wrote: @Hapa Regarding the whole Keir deal, I'm not sure what to make of it yet. I think you are just diving in too deep though... thechronicle sums it up pretty nicely: I don't think that from he posts he necessarily gives off the impression of confidence. Bah you sniped me. I honestly still don't understand it, but doesn't make Kei scummy. In fact I think he's falling more into his town meta, especially with him snapping at iamperfection the way he did. Not a strong read, but one I'm comfortable with for now. Meanwhile, sir Hapa, While we are here, gathered and proud. You stated earlier that the main criteria for our party leader resides in him being a strong town leader. While I agree that is ideal, your view is in contrast to mine. Have you read this post? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382922¤tpage=20#384 Do you agree with my logic? I really think we should focus on a strong - yet easy to pin down - player. This makes sense, even because it is difficult to find a strong player that has a strong townie read on them, as most of the strong players are not so easy to make a solid enough read day one. Let me know what you think. We completely agree with each other no? I'm sure I've mentioned multiple times that my ideal player is a meta-transparent player with a strong track record as town. | ||
Hapahauli
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Hapahauli
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In other news, I'm pretty sure Kei is town at this point. He seems to care about the thread, though he can do that as either alignment. However, what convinces me he's town is a post he made towards iamperfection: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382922¤tpage=23#458 At this point in the game, he was under fire from myself and Z-Boson for a "contradiction" in his attitude on marv. In this position, it's not a natural impulse for scum to go and antagonize another player. Scum here want to buddy people instead of picking other fights. Not only does it go against a general mentality of mafia, but it goes against the more "cooperative" mafia-meta that Kei has. | ||
Hapahauli
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On November 22 2012 08:19 strongandbig wrote: ... As far as I can tell, there are three "real" campaigns (real meaning the candidate actually intends to get elected) - Sandroba, Syllogism, and Toad. All three campaigns are based around the fundamental premise "i'm a vet, i'm town, i have good reads, and i'm self confident enough to take responsibility for my actions." Unless I've missed something, that's pretty much 100% of syllogism's campaign. Sandroba has his "get some noobs semi confirmed" thing Toad says he'll talk a lot Out of those, I gotta say Sandroba's got the lead on talking points, so I have questions for the other two: Syllogism, it's been a pretty long time since you started your campaign. You said you weren't going to lock yourself in to your party or whatever early, but do you have anything more for us by now? Or is it 100% that you're running because you know you're town and you're still not sure of Sandroba? Toad, why do you need to be the party leader to do that stuff you were saying you would do about getting people to talk about reads, and putting yourself under scrutiny so we get a better read on you? Shouldn't you be doing all that anyway, and why is it a campaign point? Oooh that's a helpful summary - thanks for that! At this point I could vote Syllo or Sandro. I wouldn't touch Toad with a stick at this point - I remember in LVII he pitched himself as a player that was really hard to read. I generally find that true about his gameplay, and that's something I don't want in a potential leader. Something just rubs me the wrong way about his early posts. His entire campaign is just "trust me! I'll take responsibility for what I do! I'll be more active" Who cares? None of those are valid reasons to elect someone at all. It reads like an emotional mafia ploy to get votes rather than someone who genuinely thinks they're best for the job. | ||
Hapahauli
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On November 21 2012 18:05 Toadesstern wrote: I'm going to adress the 2.5 major points shortly: Yes I'm going to give you an idea of who I'm considering. I don't know what it's going to be like and I can't promise wether I'll call my exact team early but I'll give reads. I will try and explain the reasoning of the reads and what you're supposed to look into is that reasoning and not the reads themselves. I don't want you to only look at the results of my reads, I want you to look at my and everyone elses train of thought. That's the interessting part. Yes scum can bus themselves but that will lead to mistakes due to confirmation bias. That's the reason it's hard for mafia to fake reads in general. They know they are right or they know that they're wrong so they're approaching the situation completly different. And again, that's what you want to look into. If someone calls someone mafia but isn't able to give reasoning as to why he thinks so or if you think his reasoning is bad your alarmclocks should be ringing. And lastly yes I agree, mafias will most likely try and blend in by pointing out easy to do reads. That is just another reason why we shouldn't let people skate by doing nothing but delivering some weak reads as to why someone is supposed to be town. After all you're going to be right in most cases even if you roll a dice all the time due to the nature of alignment distribution, right? Picking out mafias is harder and is the standard by what we should be judging people. To clarify my opinion of Toad, I wanted to address the bolded point above. It's wrong. Or rather, it's likely wrong in this particular game format. In this game, mafia's goal isn't simply to sit around and try not to look like the scummiest person in the thread. Mafia's win-con is probably heavily weighted to the success and failure of the missions that we run as town. They want to be elected onto parties, and as a result, their goal is to look as townie as possible rather than simply blend in. So when I see toad post something like this, and then talk about how he'll "be more active" and "will take responsibility" - those are talking points I'd expect a mafia would use. Long story short, don't vote Toad. Even if you see eye-to-eye with me, he's a hard guy to read anyway - there's no way we'll have significant hints toward his alignment on D1. | ||
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On November 22 2012 09:41 sandroba wrote: I just woke up and there is 20 more pages, I'll respond to stuff as I read: I'm very confident he is town. We talk about reads and games constantly in skype when we are not playing in it, and we get better results when we work toghether I believe. Is there a reason you consider him so townie? I'm thinking of voting you or him myself, so any reasoning you could provide would help. | ||
Hapahauli
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On November 22 2012 10:31 sandroba wrote: I believe I gave a brief sumary to marv already some 20 pages ago. I've played and talked with him a lot and I'm pretty sure I can tell. We often discuss games toghether so I know what's up with his thought process. Hm ok, I'll look through some of syllo's stuff and see if I agree. Also, thoughts on my thoughts on Toad? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382922¤tpage=52#1024 @ Kita As much as I enjoy flag-waving turkey's, running a joke campaign doesn't help town here. Do you actually believe Sandro/Syllo/etc aren't good candidates? | ||
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On November 22 2012 10:43 Keirathi wrote: Maybe your meta read is right after me playing one game as scum ever, but on the off chance that it's not, wouldn't it make sense for me as scum to be less willing to give out town reads, especially on someone I generally find pretty easy to read correctly as the game goes on? If I was scum and he was town, it would be in my best interest to keep him on the table as a potential scum candidate as long as possible, no? Well it has nothing to do with your stance on iamperfection - it's your willingness to pick a fight with him when you were in a vulnerable position. That, to me, isn't a scum instinct. The argument certainly could be made that you're trying to deflect attention, or that it was "forced," or whatever, but I don't see it in that post. | ||
Hapahauli
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No strong feelings on Acro. Sure he's aggressive, but I don't know enough about his general tendencies towards aggression to call it. Without a specific meta read, aggression is something that can be done by town or scum @ Sandroba I think you're missing my point on Toad. My contention isn't that he's "trying to appear townie" - that's no doubt a pretty stupid reason to suspect someone. My issue is that his campaign focuses on things like "decisiveness" and "activity," which are fairly bad reasons to think someone is a good party leader, let alone sufficient reasons to think someone is town. @ Kita Well it's hard to take you seriously when you accuse your competitors of being "vegetarians." What makes you a superior candidate over Syllo and Sandrob? Give us the cliffs. | ||
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On November 22 2012 11:13 sandroba wrote: @hapa uh sure, I wouldn't want toad as party leader either, if that's your point. Pretty much. @ Z-Bo On November 22 2012 11:13 Z-BosoN wrote: Definitely, but his kind seems to me like pointless agression. Like, what are the town motivations for the post I'm referring to above? It doesn't make any sense to me and I really don't get it. Well we can wait for him to give an answer, but I'm not sold that it's completely "pointless." Criticizing someone's logic in'st a fruitless exercise and is pretty common. Hell townies picking fights for pointless reasons isn't all that uncommon. | ||
Hapahauli
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Strongly disagree with your analysis on iamperfection. His town meta involves plenty of those spammy one-liners. He's someone I'd strongly consider as a D1 option since his scum/town meta is pretty distinguishable. His play is leaning towards his townie side for sure right now. I do agree with your assessment on kush, but for different reasons though. He's said that he doesn't care about who gets voted in for leader, which is pretty questionable. He also posted early that he was lost, confused, and had no reads. Then recently, he seems pretty adamant about lynching nl_Clarity. | ||
Hapahauli
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On November 22 2012 11:29 Acrofales wrote: Mind explaining this a bit better? I am 100% in agreement with Kita about iamperfection. Sure thang. Keep in mind that I've played a ton of games with iamperfection, so I'm more familiar with his meta than most. Iamp's town meta is probably best described as... + Show Spoiler + His town games are hallmarked by a semi-confrontational attitude, flippancy, and general spamminess that all play toward this. His scum play is far more careful. In addition, it's far more lurky. A good example is GSL III Mini. | ||
Hapahauli
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On November 22 2012 11:27 Toadesstern wrote: Long story short: I never said my activity is all I got to offer. I said I am very well a vet myself but said that that activity is the difference between people like Syllo/Sandro and myself when someone asked what's making me a good candidate. Also I'm from Europe, I usually don't like these US-style campaigns other people do in games when there's a mayoral election because I think that's trying to influence people by smoothtalking them. I'm not a better scumhunter than Sandro or Syllo, I'd consider my abilty to successfully identify townies early on as pretty sharp and what I've got is what I've got. I won't promise more than what I said unless it was meant as a joke (this game it wasn't). I'll make it clear here: Yes your right, I'd say the same as mafia, however I'm offering what I can offer to make sure you guys got a good idea about me, I'm cooperating if you will. If that's not enough that's stupid but I guess I can't do a thing about it. Thx for the next guy basicly telling people they should be scared about me because I'm hard to read... that's really helpful. Do you really think that people like Marv, Kita, Syllo, Sandro are so much worse than me in that regard if you compare our abilities as mafias from past games? Because frankly it's hilarious that I get that all the time and yet noone is talking about those "risks" when adressing Syllo or Sandro. Almost like I'm WBG/BC-junior. I agree that I should probably be considering the scum-play of Syllo and Sandro a bit more, and that's something that I'll have to look into more when I have time. However, fact is that you're not an easy fellow to read. And I bring this up because you yourself have referenced and played off of this aspect of your gameplay in the past: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361826¤tpage=52#1029 You're just not a guy that I'm comfortable having in a position of power so early in the game. The "talking point" stuff ("activity" + "decisiveness") also makes me second-guess your motives here. | ||
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On November 22 2012 11:40 Toadesstern wrote: Just to get this straight Hapa: I don't want people to judge me or someone else solely by the plattform we are running. A single d1 post that is meant as your platform for running an election that proves you're town doesn't exist, therefore I'm not even trying to do such a thing, as is noone else. I gave you an idea about what I thought about the game, how we should approach the game, how I think we should be focussing on scumhunting rather than talking about townreads all game long and that's it. That doesn't make me mafia or town in the slightest. What should bring you to the conclusion that I'm town are the posts I did that are not based on the election because as you, what I posted in my "campaign" isn't clearing me as town, nor was it supposed to. I totes get that a campaign, much less your initial post, isn't alignment indicative. However it can give me hints towards your alignment and I thought it was a scummy approach to things. As for your "non-campaign" posts, nothing in there remotely brings me to the "conclusion" that you're town. I have no idea how that's a realistic expectation. | ||
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On November 22 2012 11:36 Hapahauli wrote: Sure thang. Keep in mind that I've played a ton of games with iamperfection, so I'm more familiar with his meta than most. Iamp's town meta is probably best described as... + Show Spoiler + His town games are hallmarked by a semi-confrontational attitude, flippancy, and general spamminess that all play toward this. His scum play is far more careful. In addition, it's far more lurky. A good example is GSL III Mini. Holy balls just realized my picture link was broken =( http://imgur.com/gallery/5vQxV @ GK Yeah I completely agree with you there. Candidates need to be putting forth their proposed "teams" so we can get some voting info. | ||
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Anywho, I'm liking syllo and sandro alignment-wise, but I'm not going to vote until I see some teams proposed. I'm probably leaning towards syllo at this point based on his reent posts. However, as much as I respect syllo as a player, I'm not going to put blind-faith in his analysis by casting a vote for him now. | ||
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On November 23 2012 02:47 marvellosity wrote: syllo said he would not reveal his team... Which is why I haven't voted him yet. I was under the impression that he may reveal his team later on in the cycle, and based on that I'll cast my vote. | ||
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On November 23 2012 02:52 marvellosity wrote: where did you get that impression from? I thought he had stated quite clearly he would not. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382922¤tpage=63#1256 Oh hmmm I misread his post a bit there. Well darn I'll have to think about this. | ||
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Even if I don't convince you to vote for me, I hope whoever is running considers some of the town-candidates I put forth in this post. Why I oppose Syllogism On November 23 2012 00:18 syllogism wrote: I can't explain it better than I have. It doesn't feel like he cares about figuring things out and there is no sense of urgency despite him being one of the most likely people to be elected. He has made no attempts at figuring out who mafia is and it seems to me he is hiding behind the fact he doesn't have to. There is being lazy and then there is just not caring. My other reasons rely on my knowledge of how he thinks and some of the things he has said feel off; can't elaborate more on that. Yes, I might gain more votes by making my reads public. I would also gain more reads by pretending to be completely confident in my reads; I'm not. I have not finalized my team yet (right now I've 2 whom I'm likely to take and a few possibilities for the third) and may not finalize it until the end. An honest assessment as to why I'm not going to is a combination of considering it optimal play (if I get the votes), being lazy and because sometimes my town reads rely on things other players may find flimsy or the reasons are otherwise difficult to explain (tone, whether the person feels earnest). If I were mafia, there would be absolutely no reason not to make the list of people I intend to pick public. I really object to the rationale in this post after thinking it over. Syllogism pitches non-disclosure of his team as "optimal play" which is garbage logic. We, as a town, gain so much less information from the voting process if we all sheep onto Syllo. He's suggesting that disclosing his reads would somehow be "less-optimal", and I can't for the life of me figure out why. In addition, as mafia, he would have plenty of incentive not to disclose his "list" - mafia don't want to provide analysis if they don't have to. Syllo's entire platform is "trust me," and I'm not willing to put D1 in the hands of such a player. Why oppose Sandrob http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382922¤tpage=71#1413 I agree with a lot of what nl_Clarity said in this post. Sandrob campaigned really early and earnestly for his position, and then has all but disappeared from the thread. Sandrob hasn't contributed anything resembling a read, and this is not someone I want to be party leader D1. Why I oppose Kita Absolute joke campaign. My Proposed Party: nl_clarity Clarity has been one of the most engaged players in the game so far. He seems to truly care about what is happening and has the activity/content to back it up. This is the opposite of his scum-play in Newbie XXX (where he was far more distant in the early day), and I consider him strongly town. GoodKarma I really like the content he's posted so far, and I think it's far enough of a departure from what I've seen him to as scum to trust him. As scum he tries to blend in a lot more (Mafia LVII, Newbie XXIII), and him campaigning for party leader is the polar opposite of this. Dienosore He seemed to have claimed here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382922¤tpage=51#1017 I have no reason to disbelieve him at this point, and he would need to have coconut-sized balls as a hypothetical scum playing his first game. Others I have considered Keirathi - I still consider him town, but I have stronger reads on the above three players iamperfection - someone who seems to be town based on my meta read on him. However, I ultimately decided against this since I feel he's capable of faking his meta in the early days. What's more telling about his allignment is if he can keep up his antics. | ||
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On November 23 2012 03:43 marvellosity wrote: no thanks, s&b. Hapa, I don't really care for why you oppose people, but I have no idea whether you are town or scum or not, so I could not vote you. So who exactly are you supporting at this point? I don't pretend to be easy to read or "obvious town" at this point due to my relative inactivity this game. However, I do firmly believe I'm a better candidate than the others, and my post should show that I care and am thinking about the situation at hand. And even if you don't want to vote for me, I want to hear some opinions on my proposed party//reads. | ||
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On November 23 2012 03:46 Keirathi wrote: Hapa, I already explained why a candidate keeping his party hidden was a good idea. Yeah I saw that Kei, and I think it's really really stupid. Being scared of a possible D1 mafia manipulation isn't a good reason to sheep blindly on a player. It's like wanting to no-lynch on D1 in a normal game because there's a supposed "low chance of hitting scum." You lynch D1 anyway because of the amount of information we gain from the votecounts. Syllo is proposing an "optimal" strategy that completely neuters the amount of information we'll gain from the voting. This is fucking retarded. | ||
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On November 23 2012 03:56 Acrofales wrote: We still know the party, we just don't know his reason for picking them. If you mean that we are voting for 1 person, rather than 4, it has its advantages and disadvantages. Less easily manipulated by scum (assuming the chooser isn't actually scum himself), but gives less of a basis to vote on. Do you think Syllo is not town? I have no idea and that's the problem. Syllo hasn't done anything. He hasn't provided reads, and his only major contribution has been his "trust me I'll do everything" campaign. The only person who I've seen give something resembling a "read" on Syllo is Sandrob, who discussed in vague terms how he thought Syllo was town based on skype convos or something. That's an absurd reason to trust someone at this point in the game. Honestly, I'd insta-lynch someone for doing what Syllo's doing in any other game, but the circumstances in this set-up are quite unique and make me lean more null to him. | ||
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On November 23 2012 04:03 Hopeless1der wrote: I disagree that it completely neuters the information, and I'm moving my vote to syllo. This is completely different from a no-lynch, as you must be aware. We get to know his party. If his party fails, he will explain his reads. If they succeed, then blind faith successful, town wins the event. I respect that you want his reads upfront and feel it would make for a more informed choice of elected leader, but it is Day 1 after all, and while I think you are town Hapa, I like the plan that syllo and djo have put forth about withholding information from the scumteam to prevent harm to our possible success. It is my opinion that this game is more heavily geared towards winning the theme than winning the mafia game, and that means succeeding at events. I think syllo is just as capable as you at picking townreads, and just as likely to be town as you are. This means that from a party leader perspective, syllo provides a better chance at succeeding in the event than you currently do. ##Unvote: sandroba ##Vote: syllogism This is so fucking retarded. Like you've got to be kidding me. It's amazing that players are thinking like this and are a-ok with Syllo's "system" in complete blind faith. This "voting" isn't just about determining Syllo's allignment - it's about seeing who votes for who. This gives a bunch of players to herp-derp and vote syllo (just like you're doing) with zero rationale. We want to be able to draw lines between votes and reads. I want to know who thinks who is town, and the parties that players are supporting. THAT"s the information we value here! Because if we fail this mission, we're not going to know jack shit. Syllo explaining his choices after the fact is completely worthless, and this gives a perfect veil for mafia to hide under without making any reads. | ||
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Give us your team. It appears you've finalized things and you withholding it has absolutely no pro-town purpose at this point. You're the vote-leader as it stands, and there's no reason why your reads shouldn't be out there. | ||
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On November 23 2012 04:15 Djodref wrote: @ Hapa I disagree with you. This is just a matter of time. In 6 hours or so, we are going to know who were the party members and if the event has failed or not. Syllo giving explanations before and after is just going to help us to assess our read on syllo. No goddamnit NO. NONONONONONON. These votes aren't about determining Syllo's allignment. They're about determining the other players! Those who vote and do not vote for syllo. In a normal mafia game, we would make reads on D2 and beyond with information of where people stand on player allignments. We would know who thought who was town/scum/etc. We don't get any of this in this system! A bunch of people are going "I think syllo is town, and I'll vote for him." This is stupid and rediculous compared to the alternative, where players will have to think entire teams of players are town rather than syllo. I mean holy shit, do you really want to vote/trust a guy who's saying things like this? On November 23 2012 04:08 syllogism wrote: I guess if Sandroba is mafia, what I said about marvel's play not making strategical sense from mafia point of view is moot. In addition, he doesn't seem worried about dying in the near future, considering his hp related remark and him already announcing that he may run for an election in the future. Regardless, it's not relevant now and I am not going to go through his filter to determine whether it makes sense content-wise. That's not important right now though and a content based evaluation has to be made when it is. I've a team ready. Not entirely satisfied with it as usually figuring out 3 virtually certain townies is easier; perhaps it's the format or the players complicating things or me just not being familiar with a lot of people here. Around 4 hours until deadline, is this correct? | ||
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On November 23 2012 04:17 Hopeless1der wrote: A failed mission would be terrible, but it gives us information and if you refuse to acknowledge that, then you're "fucking retarded". I think mission success is of paramount importance and that syllo is the best horse to back in order to achieve that. The voting doesn't determine syllo's alignment, it says we all think he's town and a good candidate. If you believe syllo is not town, I'd love to hear about it, but for reasons other than "he won't tell me who is on his team". It gives us LESS information. All we will know is that Syllo is wrong. We won't know anything else, because everyone sheeped on syllo based on a misguided notion of trust rather than making any reads. | ||
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On November 23 2012 04:15 syllogism wrote: The only way me providing information regarding my picks gives you more information is if mafia decides to fight harder against my election due to my team being all town. I don't find it particularly likely that mafia would have behaved any differently today, unless perhaps if I had revealed my team much earlier. Revealing the team right now or even a few hours ago would have achieved nothing as I've been pretty much inevitable for longer than that. The reasons against disclosing the team, however, still stand. You don't need more information about me than can be found by reading my posts. I'm town and whether town reached the correct conclusion based on blind faith or deduction isn't relevant. So what are these "reasons" for non-disclosure? As far as I'm concerned, there aren't any. I want to be able to hold people accountable for the teams they support rather than having a worthless D1 because a bunch of people decided to sheep you. | ||
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On November 23 2012 04:23 Djodref wrote: I was not talking only about syllo alignment. Tomorrow, we are going to know the tickect and the party members and if the event have succeeded or not. We can process all the info tomorrow. Regarding his confidence in his read, I have no problem with that. Only scum and DarthPunk are 100% sure of their reads We're voting a player who is not satisfied with his reads and we're entirely comfortable in resigning our fate to that with no explanation. Holy christ. | ||
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On November 23 2012 04:23 Hopeless1der wrote: I agree, it gives less information, but I want to succeed at the events more than I want to find mafia right now. There are so many unknowns in this game, and I'm playing a hunch that the theme is more important than people are giving credit for. WHAT DOES SYLLO WITHHOLDING READS HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH "SUCCESS"?!?!?!?!?!??!??!!? | ||
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On November 23 2012 04:24 syllogism wrote: I don't believe you are entirely confident with your team either. I'm capable of honest self assessment and I don't see why you are attempting to use me being transparent about my thoughts in an attempt to discredit me. It doesn't particularly make sense for mafia to attack me at this stage though. No I'm not 100% confident, however I'm willing to put my reads out there to see how players respond. I want to get information. You want to be lazy and withhold everything for reasons I for the life of me can't figure out | ||
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On November 23 2012 04:25 Hopeless1der wrote: MAFIA MIGHT BE ABLE TO KILL/ALTER THE SUCCESS IF THEY KNOW THE PARTY MEMBERS HERPA FUCKING DERP YEAH THAT TOTALLY MAKES FUCKING SENSE WHEN SYLLO IS THE UNDISPUTED VOTE LEADER. You think mafia are going to kill party members if they know them? How do you know mafia have the power to do this during the Day? | ||
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Yeah but you're suggesting that mafia can insta-gib players on the party? We don't know if mafia has a traditional kill mechanic. We don't know anything about how kills/damage/whatever work. | ||
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On November 23 2012 04:34 Acrofales wrote: Night actions are resolved AFTER the mission. Mementos already stated that. Herpa fucking derp yourself. And this. No idea why I didn't type this. | ||
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On November 23 2012 04:34 Clarity_nl wrote: I think hapa is acting like his town self more and more. Hapa instead of us convincing we shouldn't vote cyllo, perhaps convince us to vote for you? I've offered my reasons. I've offered my party. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382922¤tpage=73#1444 Do you agree with me? Then vote me. I'll be voting for myself: ##Vote Hapahauli Right now I'm trying to show you guys that putting blind faith in Syllo is stupid. There's no sane reason for him to withhold reads. There's no threat to members on the party. There's no risk of "mafia manipulation" or whatever the fuck he things the "reasons" are. | ||
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On November 23 2012 04:31 Acrofales wrote: I don't think you're doing his filter justice with this post. He has given a rather important scumread. Whether it's right or not I am having a hard time determining, but the fact that Sandro isn't in here telling Syllo he's bad/stupid/scum for not recognizing him as town is almost MORE telling than the read in itself. I haven't seen Sandro allow people to call him scum as town without a fight. Now Sandro would not be my first choice for a lynch, and I would generally be opposed to a D1 lynch based on this little information, but I am not getting the town vibes that Sandro usually throws off in spades, which, combined with Syllo's read is quite telling. I am not the only one in the thread feeling that way. Granted, Syllo could be scum and very manipulative, managing to get us all to switch off Sandro, but that would be a completely new meta for him. The only scumgame I played with him, he disappeared from the thread and called everybody stupid. Town was onto him pretty early. He has not played like that at all this game. Well I'm not super-familiar with Syllo's meta, and fact is, he hasn't done much this game at all. And I still can't reconcile how withholding his team is a good idea, much less how everyone else seems to blindly accept it. | ||
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On November 23 2012 04:45 Clarity_nl wrote: Could you expand on your goodkarma town read? I've seen him play two mafia games: Mafia LVII: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361826&user=81106 Newbie XXIII: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=355874&user=81106 He also played a mafia game in Rockband Mini, but replaced after a few posts. Not worth mentioning. In these games, his behavior rides along the lines of "mafia wanting to blend in." He doesn't post often, and when he does, it is only when he's asked to do so or to sheep on the "analysis" of a popular scumread. He overall really tries to not to get noticed, and his mentality in this game is the exact opposite. | ||
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Well I hope that Syllo is town for our sake | ||
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Who are you currently supporting? I've seen you tear down a bunch of campaigns, but you've proposed no alternative yourself. @ Cave Johnson On November 23 2012 05:12 CaveJohnson wrote: I'm just taking the enemy of my enemy approach with this election. Might be worth doing the same for consolidation Yes let's sheep a guy without thinking about his alignment because we think the other guy is scum. Nevermind making a read on the guy we're voting, let's just consolidate. Someone needs to shoot/attack/kill/whatever this guy. | ||
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On November 23 2012 05:40 Promethelax wrote: Hapa, you will not get my vote today. You come to late to change this election and I don't like that you push us away from Sand/Syllo but don't mention Kita except as a 'joke' It is a joke. Give me a reason to take him seriously and I will do so. Also, you need to hash out your read on me because I have no idea WTF you're thinking. You mentioned I'm "easy to read," that you are comfortable reading me and whatnot, but your rationale thinking I'm "suspicious" or whatever is absurd. For example, you mentioned that I'm not the "confrontational town hapa" when in fact I'm also super-confrontational as scum. Then I see things like this, where you don't mention a damn thing about the important parts of my candidacy (namely my proposed partY) and go off on how you just don't like my attitude on Kita or some crap like that. | ||
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On November 23 2012 07:02 Clarity_nl wrote: Hapa are you willing to switch out GK for someone else you find townie? Will vote for you if you do, as long as your choice doesn't suck. Well not really, since I strongly believe GK to be town. Who else would you suggest? | ||
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On November 23 2012 07:05 Clarity_nl wrote: Phagga. Is your meta read on GK really that strong? Other then meta you don't seem to have much reasoning. I'm pretty comfortable with the meta read. I really don't know much about Phagga - can you give me the rundown? | ||
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On November 23 2012 07:12 Clarity_nl wrote: His thinking process has just seemed very townie all game so far. I can see where you're coming from, and a lot of his posts are "agreeable". That being said, I don't have the strong feelings about them one way or the other. I don't get an overwhelming sense of genuinity from him. Also, he's never played a scum-game to my knowledge, so I have no baseline to measure this against. I dont' know what he's capable of, and if his play isn't giving me strong feelings one way or the other, I'd rather have GK on the team. | ||
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His "disinterest" seems pretty null, as his "I'm not comfortable in themed games and I'm hoping to be lazy" is fairly similar to what I was thinking toward the beginning of the game. I'm pretty sympathetic to it. That being said, marv seems waaaaay too comfortable with sheeping syllo at this point, and knowing the control-freak that marv is in mafia games, I'm having trouble connecting the mentality. I'm leaning scum on marv at this point. Regarding SnB: I think he's falling into his less-careful town meta a bit, and his posting style seems more similar to his town games (i.e. Mario Mini) rather than the more careful scumgames (Mafia LVII, DeathNote Mini). I'm leaning town on him, but these things can be faked as well. Definitely not someone I'd be comfortable putting in a party right now though. | ||
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On November 23 2012 07:30 marvellosity wrote: check out bureaucracy. I even PMed syllogism after that game to ask his advice on stuff. Me voting for syllogism is entirely unsurprising. your entire point makes no sense because me liking control is definitely not something that i only do as town. I don't see how I'm 'sheeping' him by the way. Unless everyone who is voting for someone who is not themself is 'sheeping'. Well you are "sheeping" him. You're putting what seems to me like blind faith in him, and this is something I'd associate more with your "lazy" scum-play than your town play. I also have no idea how people (including you) are reading Syllo so strongly as town. | ||
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I'll be out for most of the night to see family. Hopefully I'll see y'all after the deadline. Peace out. | ||
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Also, I did not get hit last night so yay! I'll have to think over the lynch some over the night. CaveJohnson is my top scumread atm, but that could change after a thorough read-through of the filters. | ||
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Anywho wanted to get to some of the more major suspicions in the thread atm. Regarding GoodKarma I still think GK is town. Primarily because of how he shut down his campaign and consolidated onto Syllo. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382922¤tpage=65#1292 GoodKarma's campaign was gaining some traction at this point, and it would have been perfectly reasonable for him to continue on with it. His actions make very little sense from a scum perspective, as scum conceding a campaign with decent traction (and guaranteeing a strong town player control of D1) would be pretty stupid. It's possible to interpret his actions as a scum player sheeping onto another campaign due in order to not stand out, however, I find the former explanation much more convincing. If GK really wanted to hide, I doubt he would have campaigned. Regarding TheChronicler http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382922¤tpage=17#331 He opens his game with a really strange proposal to be elected, planning to elect a team of three people who will then elect the party... strange. He's very obsessive about this "information" point and bolds it green a lot, even in future posts. He seems to want to treat this as a more "classical" mafia game - objecting to giving out town reads and wanting people to give stances. One could interpret this as a "stupid townie idea" however he has very little conviction when pushing it. He seems really ready to accept his idea was bad when contested only a little. Other than that, I think Acro's post pointing out his "reasoning" for voting Syllo was spot on. He never calls Syllo town - he just offers strange/irrelevant justifications to vote him. Regarding CaveJohnson Looking at his filter on it's face show's a player that's done pretty much nothing all game. However, Drazerk is apparently pretty "trolly" as town from what I've been reading in the thread. Notably, he really doesn't seem to give much of a shit about defending himself, and strikes me a a townie trait. Leaning town on him all things said and done. Will have to look into his meta more however. Regarding Sandroba Along similar lines as the read on GoodKarma, him completely abandoning his campaign and sheeping on Syllo doesn't make much sense from a scum perspective. Why guarentee a strong town player complete control over party selections? Makes no sense as scum. While his activity dipped down today, the day is still young, and I can't blame people for lack of activity on Thanksgiving. I'm not ready to vote Chronicler yet because I have other people to consider. Promethelax sticks out in my mind as someone who needs a lookin-over. Too many damn filters in this game. >> | ||
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On November 24 2012 06:28 marvellosity wrote: uh, what I was getting at is this: I find kita's play scummier than sandroba's, but as you know sandroba so well you find it easier to discern sand's alignment. I'm curious what you think kita has done to deserve NOT being lynched. Oooh Kita is also another guy to consider. One thing that really stuck out to me is the "conditional damage" that is on him: On November 23 2012 09:04 kitaman27 wrote: Well done I've been targeted with the guessing game. If I don't properly predict the lynch result within the next 24 hours I am hit with 200 hp of damage. I guess this is one of the ways mafia can damage people? :p First of all, attacks seem to be highly themed in this game. Kush's "Nirvana Strike" had a very specific name linked to the Chrono Trigger theme. Something like "the guessing game" is so uncharacteristically un-themed. In addition, it's just a really damn strange damage ability that seems farfetched at best. In addition, I didn't like kita's campaign very much. Posts like this... http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382922¤tpage=54#1062 ...are just weird to me. His first impulse to campaign wasn't to propose a party - it was to spread passive suspicion amongst a bunch of players. I don't like it, and I think his behavior has been scummy so far. | ||
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I'm not sold on Sandro or your 2nd case on him. Your 2nd case talks a lot about "faking enthusiasm," but his change in eagerness is explainable in many other ways as well. Also, I believe that him giving up the election at the end doesn't make sense with scum objectives: Regarding Sandroba Along similar lines as the read on GoodKarma, him completely abandoning his campaign and sheeping on Syllo doesn't make much sense from a scum perspective. Why guarentee a strong town player complete control over party selections? Makes no sense as scum. While his activity dipped down today, the day is still young, and I can't blame people for lack of activity on Thanksgiving. Whaddy'a think? | ||
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On November 24 2012 06:49 Clarity_nl wrote: I understand your argument when it comes to him giving up his campaign, but this can be explained in a couple of different ways. Some scummy some townie, most for either. My point is that his behavior this game has not made sense to me at all until I looked at it from this angle. Well I think his campaign-actions are more likely townie than the alternatives. Also, I don't think lynching someone for losing interest on D2, especially over the holidays, is a good idea. I really want to see more from Sandroba before I'd consider lynching him. | ||
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On November 24 2012 06:54 syllogism wrote: I don't think Sandroba is in the US currently and I believe very few people celebrate thanksgiving in Brazil. Also some of you people aren't giving my ability to read sandroba nearly enough weight Oh he's in Brazil? Well that's something to consider. I'd rather give Sandroba more time. A lot of the meta stuff is explainable by RL things, and isn't enough for me to draw a pattern of "scumminess." | ||
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Also, TheChronicler's defense seems to be townie, even if "erratic" - instantaneous replies, and he doesn't seem very concerned about suspicion on him. | ||
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On November 24 2012 07:21 syllogism wrote: And hapa wasn't talking about his earlier disappearance, but his current one. It's fairly suspicious that hapa attempted to defend sandroba based on it being thanksgiving as it indicates that he didn't even bother checking where sandroba is from, but perhaps it's just american to expect thanksgiving to be a more global thing. 'MURICA! Naw it's just me being stupid. I'll have to look into Sandroba more. I'm really just not convinced, especially given that he basically handed you the election on a silver platter at the end of the game. | ||
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On November 24 2012 09:37 CaveJohnson wrote: Sorry VE I can't allow you to do that... ##Spicy Jerky: VisceraEyes Can you specify what exactly this is? I though it was a joke, but this apparently is an "item" in Chrono Trigger. | ||
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How much have ya been following the game VE? Enough to come up with a read or two? | ||
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Well... what about that even makes me scummy? "Recalcitrant" would better describe a townie than a scum player no? It looks like you skimmed over all my objections to Syllo's candidacy on D1 and just focused on select rhetoric I used as opposed to my actual arguments. Rather ironic that you accuse me of "misrepresenting" syllo's candidacy while misrepresenting my opposition. If you're town, I hope we're not getting the Liquid City iteration of VE. If you're scum, please carry on. | ||
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Looking back at him "resigning" his candidacy again, he pretty much only did it when it was clear Syllo was going to win, and did it in complete silence in the voting thread. ##Vote Sandroba | ||
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Welcome back - Prom and Kita I can sympathize with... but clarity? That seems pretty far-fetched. Can you give us a rundown? I read clarity as really strongly town. | ||
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On November 24 2012 12:01 sandroba wrote: Pretty much his forged nonsensical cases against me, deliberately misinterpreting things to make me look scummy. I'm not quite sure yet because he could be really bad and have confirmation bias, trying to fit every single post I make in his theory. Oh come on... you're straight up OMGUS Clarity? I mean the guy is a relatively new player and has an 11 page filter... | ||
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On November 24 2012 12:09 Z-BosoN wrote: Hapa, what do you think of iamp? I'm missing a lot of him. He kept up a lot of posts in day one, but now is being waaay lurkier than his townie self usually is. It's kinda similar to his play in GSL III at the moment. He kept up with his mentality/activity well early on, but couldn't maintain his attitude in later days. It's similar on its face, however, I don't think it's damning yet. If he keeps up his inactivity, he may very well deserve a vote. | ||
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On November 24 2012 12:27 Acrofales wrote: Having lots of 1-liners is a town tell how? Don't get me wrong. I have no clue about clarity's alignment right now. Last time I read his filter I was null and I have plenty of homework tomorrow. But what the fuck does the length of his filter have to do with it? You want a giant filter? Look at Drazerk in HRM. I believe he reached 25 pages of rhyme. Yes, he was scum. It's not just the filter size - it's his level of engagement in the thread. In addition, his filter isn't simply "11 pages of one-liners" - there's some solid analysis in there. | ||
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I think his stances on marv are rather reasonable. Many players in the beginning did not understand how the "party" system worked and were proposing various vets as teams. I think that's the case with Prom's involvement of Marv on the team. Him "prodding" marv with suspicion is a bit strange, but again, is excusable. What starts to get sketchy in his filter are his voting actions. His voting rationale is really questionable all around. He votes Acro for the sake of opposing Syllo and Sand for no other reason than they were popular candidates: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382922¤tpage=40#795 He then votes Kita for equally strange rationale: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382922¤tpage=56#1104 ... I did not address Syllo because he did not seem to be a credible candidate to me at that point. I'm not going to vote Acro as he did not try to generate momentum from my vote on him and I will be voting somewhere else instead. ... My vote will be on Kita, the candidate I trust. The reasons I trust him 1) I am in his party and know that I am town. That leaves only three others in the party and I have a town read on all three. 2) I am very unhappy with how into Syllo/Sand this thread is. The lack of a real campaign away from theirs worries the shit out of me. Mafia would want to be leader or in the party and the only way that is confirmed is if one of them is mafia. Ergo ## vote: kitaman Firstly, his reasons for voting kita are really bad. He trusts kita only for the reasons that Prom is included in the party. That's really really weak and has no bearing on whether or not kita is town. Secondly, he dismisses Syllo as a candidate for absolutely no reasoning. Thing is, he never talks about why Syllo is a bad candidate in his filter. He just has this unexplained "suspicion" that either one of Syllo/Sandrob is scum. In fact, his later posts make no sense with this mentality: On November 23 2012 05:40 Promethelax wrote: Hapa, you will not get my vote today. You come to late to change this election and I don't like that you push us away from Sand/Syllo but don't mention Kita except as a 'joke' I agree with you that we should not be voting Sand based on his unopposed candidacy and I didn't want to vote Syllo since he seemed intent on bringing Sand with him on the mission. I still prefer Syllo over Sand and will vote him if things get tight, as it is though I am more comfortable with Kita than either of them, his town reads are still strong to me even though he is not as townine in my mind as any of the three he chose to take with him. In my catching up I saw Kita post something asking why I was voting him if I didn't think he was the best leader. I thought I had made this clear, he was the best leader with a chance of success. If that wasn't clear my apologies, my intention was to communicate that Kita was the least of the evils which were available to me. ... Bolded part is relevant here. There is all sorts of stuff wrong with that statement. He is really convinced that one of Syllo/Sand is scum in previous posts... http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382922¤tpage=56#1113 I will bet that at least one of Syllo/Sand is scum. I think I explained well enough earlier and I'm sticking with that. If you need clarification I can give you that. ...yet he's really at peace with the idea of voting Syllo. This doesn't make sense, since he believes that Syllo would take along Sandrob on his team. If he's "convinced" that one of them is scum, he should be really objecting to them as opposed to resigning himself to voting the lesser of two evils. | ||
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##Vote: Promethelax 1)Prom's attitude on "Consolidation" Early in D1, he shows a desire to consolidate the campaigns: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382922¤tpage=15#289 On November 21 2012 11:44 Promethelax wrote: I propose that we limit the leader voting to a small pool of players (~3-5) that way they can run true campaigns for the position and all others run campaigns to be chosen as a member of their party. That is if the vote were between Me, Marv and Clarity each of us would say why you should vote us and everyone else would try to show what it is they bring to the team. If we could limit the leader voting after 24 hours to a small pool we will be able to have a more productive d1, think of this as similar to a lynch consolidation but doing it early enough that everyone still has a chance to make a difference and no votes are left on players who have no chance of becoming leader. However when things are "consolidated" on Syllo and Sandrob, he is really bothered by this, and starts voting other candidates basically for the sake of creating opposition. Some notables: On November 22 2012 02:22 Promethelax wrote: You know catching up with this thread is a million times worse than I was hoping, remember how I said that I was toning down the amount which I am posting? Could you all do me a favour and consolidate too. Thanks. After reading the last ~20 pages I have come to a conclusion as to who I want to vote. It isn't Sylo and it isn't Sand. Their abilities are, no doubt, incredible but I don't like the way Sand took over the thread early and no one challenged him. I feel that a mafia player would in fact have tried to take over. (Remember Matt's reed of Decundo in PP) as such I'll be voting away from the two of them and towards someone who I read as town right now and who is known for having good reads. ## Vote: Acro Come on boys, lets do this right and make Sand have to fight for his nomination. I'll be out again for a few hours. See ya'll soon. ... My vote will be on Kita, the candidate I trust. The reasons I trust him 1) I am in his party and know that I am town. That leaves only three others in the party and I have a town read on all three. 2) I am very unhappy with how into Syllo/Sand this thread is. The lack of a real campaign away from theirs worries the shit out of me. Mafia would want to be leader or in the party and the only way that is confirmed is if one of them is mafia. Ergo ## vote: kitaman 2) Prom's Attitude on Syllo Since Syllo is pretty much confirmed town at this point, it's worth looking at Prom's attitudes from that perspective. I mentioned in my previous post that Prom didn't view Syllo as a "credible" candidate. In addition, he has a general suspicion that one of Sandrob/Syllo is scum. But he NEVER explains this. Here are all the mentions of Syllo in his filter: ... After reading the last ~20 pages I have come to a conclusion as to who I want to vote. It isn't Sylo and it isn't Sand. Their abilities are, no doubt, incredible but I don't like the way Sand took over the thread early and no one challenged him. I feel that a mafia player would in fact have tried to take over. (Remember Matt's reed of Decundo in PP) as such I'll be voting away from the two of them and towards someone who I read as town right now and who is known for having good reads. ... ... I did not address Syllo because he did not seem to be a credible candidate to me at that point. I'm not going to vote Acro as he did not try to generate momentum from my vote on him and I will be voting somewhere else instead. ... My vote will be on Kita, the candidate I trust. The reasons I trust him 1) I am in his party and know that I am town. That leaves only three others in the party and I have a town read on all three. 2) I am very unhappy with how into Syllo/Sand this thread is. The lack of a real campaign away from theirs worries the shit out of me. ... Kier: I've been thinking of that as well (encryption could solve this problem ) but the hell with it. I have town reads on everyone Kita plans on picking. I know I am town. I am very worried about Sand/Syllo. I was planning on voting away from them and won't vote for them even if Kita changes his party to exclude me. ... Oats: my scum reads, or non-town reads really I'm betting on a three party system, are pretty minor (if I were Marv they'd be pink or something) Hapa reads as non-town to me he has not been the assertive, pushy in my face townie I expect and I don't like it. I will bet that at least one of Syllo/Sand is scum. I think I explained well enough earlier and I'm sticking with that. If you need clarification I can give you that. GK: it seems to me that scum want to be elected leader (an assumption but ah well, I have to go with what I have) or at least be a party member, since there were only two candidates who seemed like they would take each other in thier parties I was deeply unhappy. If scum wants be leader (which I believe) than one of Sand or Syllo must be scum. Otherwise a strong candidate would have appeared to oppose them, since that had not appeared I assumed that mafia was content with what we were doing and I was not content with that. ... Kita may not be the best leader but he is better than Syllo/Sand (though I would vote Syllo over sand) and I hate the party you chose. I think that Kita has a chance to be party leader and has a better chance of being town than Sand or Syllo. His town reads also agree with mine. Hapa, you will not get my vote today. You come to late to change this election and I don't like that you push us away from Sand/Syllo but don't mention Kita except as a 'joke' I agree with you that we should not be voting Sand based on his unopposed candidacy and I didn't want to vote Syllo since he seemed intent on bringing Sand with him on the mission. I still prefer Syllo over Sand and will vote him if things get tight, as it is though I am more comfortable with Kita than either of them, his town reads are still strong to me even though he is not as townine in my mind as any of the three he chose to take with him. That's all the stuff from D1. There's no significant explanations. No nothing. He appears to be trying to discredit Syllo for no significant reasoning. | ||
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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382922¤tpage=112#2236 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382922¤tpage=113#2241 | ||
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On November 25 2012 02:24 Clarity_nl wrote: Hapa your case on Hapa focusses a lot on his opposition to syllo getting elected, from a scum perspective I don't see this making sense unless there is a scum running at that time and Prome is indirectly supporting that person. From the way the elections went only Sand and Kita were in the running at one point or another, are you willing to say that if Prome is scum one of these two is as well, and if so whom? I realize it is, in a way, an association case with a flip, but I'm curious what you think about this. Well that's based (as you say) on associative tells and that's not very good reason to not suspect someone. In addition, there's plenty to suggest from previous games (such as Resistance) that only 1 scum is needed in the party for the mission to fail. Prom (as scum) has plenty of incentive to support a person (kita) who wanted to take him on his team, regardless of allignment. The stuff on Syllo is valid because he tears him down for no reasoning. He just pushes passive suspicion on Syllo, which is really scummy, especially since we know that Syllo is town. | ||
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Solid stuff on kita. Still like Promethelax more, but man I've never been so comfortable with so many lynch options. Prom, Sandro, and Kita look like they all have a pretty high chance to flip red to me o-O | ||
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On November 25 2012 03:11 strongandbig wrote: I don't like the case on prone from hapa I don't see the scum motivation, the case boils down to "this guy voted weird get him" Yes my entire case is about that, and not that he provided absolutely no reasoning for anything he was talking about. | ||
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I think Acro nailed it. On November 25 2012 05:08 Acrofales wrote: Sandro upped and left. He is not here (or faking not being here). Sure, that is damning, because it's sandroba, but on exactly the same basis we could be lynching SnB, hopeless1der, Promethelax, VE, Adam or iamperfection. Yes, we hold Sandroba to a higher standard... and Syllo has a meta-based scumread on him. However, I am not comfortable sheeping Syllo. If he's wrong, we're screwed and have absolutely nothing useful. Toad, on the other hand has been here. He has been posting, quite actively at times. Yet, he has DONE jack shit. That is far more damning than going afk imho. There's just nothing in Toad's filter that looks like scum-hunting. He never commits to a read, never builds a case, and just passively comments on a bunch of other people. I find it hard to believe that he's so scared of taking some HP damage to completely ignore town objectives (scumhunting) for 3-4 days. As for the other candidates, I still wouldn't mind a Sandro or Prom lynch. However I think Toad has the highest chance of flipping here - as Acro said, he's been active and present, yet hasn't done anything. | ||
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On November 25 2012 05:59 Clarity_nl wrote: You're the second to mention a modkill on Sandro. Did I miss something? Voting is mandatory - he hasn't voted and time is ticking down | ||
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I took 100 damage - no flavor, no nothing, just 100 damage Anywho, Syllo seemed to work out for us last time around. I wouldn't mind voting him again unless someone comes up with a better solution. ##Vote: Syllogism | ||
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Hapa: you ignored everything I said in response. I think you know better that my actions follow the way I think about the game which, as should be obvious, is not always the dominant way of thinking. Since you haven't responded to me I don't have more to add except that you are a top scum read for me now. I've never seen you, as town, push that someone is scum but also refuse to engage with them. You are more hands on. I expect this disengaged sort of attack from Zbo but not from you. Where did you address my posts? You didn't. And how the fuck are you blaming me for not engaging you when you go AWOL for long periods of time? So let's "engage." Respond to my posts and lets go from there. You still haven't and I'm waiting. | ||
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On November 25 2012 10:12 GreYMisT wrote: Everyone I am very sorry for this, It should have been included in the daypost but I rushed it. Luckily I caught it only an hour in and this shall be editied in. In addition to the party only being able to contain half of the same players as the previous party, the same party leader may not be elected twice in a row. This means syllogism is ineligible to be elected as leader. This was supposed to be explained via flavor but you know... Again very sorry that this information was not presented to you guys immediately. Awww 'dat sucks. One thing we have to think about is if it's worth going all-out to maximise chance of success on the mission (using two members of the former party), or taking more of a risk to possibly confirm a couple of more people as town. I'm undecided on this. Either way, I want to run for party leader My team would be nl_clarity, marvellosity, and one other from the party pool from last mission. I might consider replacing one of the two new guys, but I'm pretty convinced they're both town, and we get the chance to confirm some extra people if the mission succeeds. | ||
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I think he's town, and I trust his town-reading ability more than any possible alternatives at this point. | ||
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On November 25 2012 10:30 goodkarma wrote: Keep in mind there are other ways of going about this. Working under the premise that the successful team day one is all but confirmed town, we can cherry pick from that to form a team as quickly as possible. Pick a decent townie (like Keir), and then use the member whose judgement is arguably strongest (syllo) to determine the remainder of the party to be selected. Sure, it involves lots of sheeping, but it is a very sound way of removing any potential for mafia manipulation in the selection process. Well I think there's more consideration than just to create a team that's as "safe" as possible. One of the functions of running these missions is to confirm people as town. In that regard, I don't mind electing players that I'm strongly reading as town, as opposed to "confirmed" townies (via previous mission). We can confirm strong town reads if success, or a possible failure could alert us to a dangerous scumplayer. | ||
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On November 25 2012 10:32 TheChronicler wrote: 200 gold Popcorn You target 2 players. You will be told if they are the same alignment or different. Night Results: toadesstern and sandroba, same. Ooooh, popcorn indeed. | ||
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On November 25 2012 10:34 Oatsmaster wrote: Chronicler. Hmm is there a scum reason for doing this? YES THERE IS. Toad was under pressure last cycle, chronicler was also under pressure. So fake a 'dt' check and BAM TOAD IS SCUM Well we can look at this multiple ways. 1) Chronicler is town and is telling the truth. Pretty likely IMO. 2) Chronicler is town and is lying. Nonsensical, given that Toad is a very likely target in future days. 3) Chronicler is scum and is telling the truth. Possible bus. Worth considering, but not too likely IMO. 4) Chronicler is scum and is lying. Very unlikely, given that toad hypothetically flipping green would get TC under very heavy fire. Also completely unnecessary in order to get Toad killed. | ||
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On November 25 2012 10:37 goodkarma wrote: Really? I thought the function of these missions was winning... We can only have half the party from last time anyway, so some confirming will be involved. But why not leave the reigns in the hands of people we (pretty much with absolute certainty) know to be town? I see no down-side. Well I honestly don't know what the success/failure of a mission determines behind the scenes. However, missions can confirm people as town, and we also need to consider that aspect of it when making a decision. | ||
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On November 25 2012 10:39 Promethelax wrote: in case it wasn't clear (I was pretty high so maybe it wasn't) I didn't feel that Sand and Syllo presented differing platforms both had the other on the ticket, I thought, hence why I referred to them as Obama/Romney. The idea being that voting for one was the same as voting for the other. That's not a "response" - that's you replying to a very select portion of my suspicions and burying it in a long post (in a spoiler, rofl) where noone can see it. There are several things I want to hear about: 1) Why were you so at peace with the idea of voting Syllo, when you were convinced that one of Sandrob/Syllo was scum AND you thought Syllo would include Sandrob in his party? 2) Why were you trying to push "consolidation" early in the thread, then attacked Sandrob/Syllo for the sake of opposition? 3) Why didn't you treat Syllo as a "credible candidate"? (Also, funny that you accused me of not taking kita seriously in one of your previous posts as scummy). | ||
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On November 25 2012 10:43 goodkarma wrote: I also read Marv as town, but I don't know how I feel about him being put in a party. From what I've heard, he has a crazy good scum game, so perhaps choosing another person would be best... Also: Could you clarify once and for all what your early game comment about having a low success modifier was about? Marv rolled a loooooong string of scumgames recently, and I'd expect his scum-play to be much more demotivated (i.e. GSL III Mini). Marv currently is much more engaged and active than I'd expect from his scum play. In addition, including him on the team would help us avoid a potential late-game disaster if we somehow fail the mission (I.e. it would alert us to him being scum if we failed, yet included other strongly townie guys on the team). | ||
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On November 25 2012 10:46 goodkarma wrote: All that winning gave us last time was the chance to lynch. If that's all that happens when things go well, then, yeah, I'd rather not learn what happens when we fail... Hint: I doubt we'll be able to lynch. Wait what? How do you know what success/failure of a mission does? Mission success wasn't explicitly linked to a lynch day in any host-post I saw. | ||
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On November 25 2012 10:52 Hapahauli wrote: Wait what? How do you know what success/failure of a mission does? Mission success wasn't explicitly linked to a lynch day in any host-post I saw. | ||
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On November 25 2012 11:17 goodkarma wrote: I don't understand what you want to know from this question... I have no psychic abilities that forsee what Greymist might do to us if we fail, if that's what you're getting at. And if you were to look at my comments, I believe I have clearly conveyed that. Well you seemed to come up with this idea out of thin air, so either I missed something in Greymists filter or you made that comment having either a) extra knowledge that town wouldn't know or b) a bad assumption. Either way, I want to know. | ||
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On November 25 2012 11:44 Acrofales wrote: Eh, that idea was bouncing around all day. Not sure who mentioned it first. GK states it with a weird amount of certainty, but the idea wasn't new. Oh hm I phrased that a lot more accusatory than I intended. Well the point is that it's a bad assumption and it plays into our conversation from a few pages back. It looks to me like the cycles are pre-determined and just follow the story. In this case, we don't have to "sell out" for succeeding the mission by including as many confirmed townies as possible. I'd rather include some strong town reads (such as marv) to confirm them. In the event that the mission fails, it doesn't look like we lose anything (on the surface), and in addition, we can be alerted to a potential threat (i.e. marv playing a really good scumgame). | ||
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On November 25 2012 11:57 Oatsmaster wrote: So this is a binary situation if im not wrong, Either Toadsstern is scum/ Chronicler is scum I dont really see how Toadsstern's role is necessarily town oriented though :/ Yeah, I think it's more likely that "Johnny" is a mafia role. Last flip, "Spekkio" is a mafia role despite being a "good guy" in the story. Johnny to me seems similar - he's not a "bad guy" in the CT story by any measure, but he does fight with your party (well... race) and thus is similar to Spekkio. | ||
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On November 25 2012 12:22 Hopeless1der wrote: Oh, you're his scumbuddy? Because that's really the only way I see that statement being both an insult and true. You seem to be forgetting a bunch of things regarding that claim. 1) Toad is scummy as shit. 2) The role isn't necessarily blue - it could be red 3) The role is much more powerful than the other town-alligned roles we've seen so far. | ||
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On November 25 2012 12:27 Hopeless1der wrote: I'm more just prickly that Acro feels the need to straight up insult me with no further reasoning than he's lying. I haven't actually made up my mind about who I believe yet. I'm with Acro on this one - it looks pretty obvious that he's lying. Question is whether or not he's third party or mafia. I'm inclined to believe mafia due to Chronicler's night action, as well as Toad's lack of scumhunting D1. Hell he targeted me with a 100hp attack... without ever having a scumread on me? Totally town. | ||
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On November 25 2012 12:50 Adam4167 wrote: That team is adequate. Dienosore and Oats were successful on the day 1 mission. Clarity, as I stated previously, was obviously scum when he rolled scum in Newbie Mini XXX. Looks much closer to his Mario Mini play style, where he was town. Add on top of that, he was sandrobas' attempted mislynch. Phagga looks just as townie as the last time I mentioned him. ##Vote: Dienosore I'm a bit skeptical about Phagga, and you haven't mentioned him much in your filter. I'm much more null on him than you are - can you give me the run-down about why he's so townie? | ||
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On November 25 2012 12:57 Toadesstern wrote: except for the part where I take 500 fucking damage if I don't get a vote on me every cycle... Cool. So that changes things why exactly? Hell I have a hard time you're telling the truth about that ability. Secondly, you still have yet to explain this: On November 25 2012 11:55 Hapahauli wrote: Just to get this straight Toad - you targeted me with 100 damage despite never mentioning me as a scumread in your filter? Ok buddy. | ||
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Your recent defenses seem reasonable, so I'll drop things for now. Toad and Kita are far higher on the radar for me at the moment. Also I'm not too sold on the idea that Prom's "powerful" role makes him scummy. He didn't have to disclose his powers, and could have easily lied about them to make 'em seem more reasonable. Instead, he seems pretty forthcoming about things, and that doesn't seem scummy. Regarding the Party Is there a consensus on the party atm? Are we consolidating votes on Oats? | ||
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On November 26 2012 09:39 Z-BosoN wrote: Hey hapa my case on hopeless. I think he's scum I tend to agree with you here, but for different reasons. He's playing differently from Mario Mini - while my view of that game is skewed (I was scum after all), there are some noticeable mentality differences between the two games. @Z-Bo's Case I assure you, I am not filthy filthy scum, but let's face it, you're not going to take my word for it. You'll learn I'm very lazy and/or terrible at this game, so that portion of your case shouldn't hold much weight. However, I have definitely shown mafia motivation in my dealing with sandroba and I would not be upset in the slightest were I to be lynched, aside from the (currently unknown) fact that I am town. I don't know that I can really defend myself, but if you are interested in why I did something or how I came to a particular conclusion, please ask me and I'll answer it directly. This initial response to your case is really strange to me. First of all, why would a townie every accept that they're showing mafia motivation? It's the most ridiculous possible defense - a townie never has doubts that he has town motivation, whereas Hopeless seems to be at peace with his own "scumminess." Him being accepting of his "scummy" behavior is also inconsistent with his past town game (Vigi in Mario Mini Mafia). He's overall much more confrontational while defending himself and never accepts that he's scummy despite having serious suspicion on him. Examples: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=381440¤tpage=51#1010 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=381440¤tpage=46#919 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=381440¤tpage=43#841 Read each of those posts and note the language, the attitude, and how confident/confrontational he is. It's completely different from this game, where he's constantly admonishing his own behavior as "lurky", "poor", etc. This sudden vote on TC by Hopeless strikes me as really strange (and forced): On November 24 2012 06:43 Hopeless1der wrote: you mean you'd lynch for reasons OTHER than being scum? ##Vote: TheChronicler p.s. I've been skimming the thread, Chronicler is very scummy looking, I'll be back in 5ish hours to, you know, actually play the game instead of sitting by the sidelines. He suddenly jumps on TC for a seemingly innocuous comment, never explains himself, then goes awol from the thread. It's just too weird, and it seems like Hopeless just tried to jump on something to make it look like he contributed. Him buddying Toad (right after toad's "Johnny" claim) was pretty strange, as well as him immediately begging for healing. On November 25 2012 12:01 Hopeless1der wrote: Hey Tooaaaadddd...Can i haz ur heal? I'll give this vote I found. Look! ##Unvote: Oatsmaster ##Vote Toadesstern It's just really "off" behavior - I'd expect a little more skepticism from townie Hopeless, as "general suspicion" is more of a townie trait than immediately trusting a strange blue-claim. | ||
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On November 26 2012 10:12 Clarity_nl wrote: I actually didn't notice that last quote, Hapa. Did hopeless ever claim being damaged? With that, I'm off to bed. Sorry for a lazy day, it's not a lynch cycle so we have some time, tomorrow it's back to serious scumhunting. Sorry zbo for the confusion I just genuinely did not see what you were getting at. Now that you mention it, I didn't see anything in his filter about him taking damage. Hmm. | ||
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On November 26 2012 10:14 marvellosity wrote: your case definitely pushes me over to the scum side for hopeless, hapa. must be the way you tell 'em Like honestly I'm not all too-convinced about Hopeless being scum yet. He is pretty damn lazy in his townie meta, and I'd be hesitant to lynch him just on "lack of scumhunting", because he has a lower standard than the rest of us. I'm also not sure if the mentality deviations he's showing are necessarily scummy deviations. Though I'm certainly leaning towards it. More waiting for Hopeless's response though. | ||
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In addition, you mentioned self-inflicted damage. Why didn't you disclose this? | ||
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On November 26 2012 10:16 Hopeless1der wrote: btw hapa, as far as general suspicion goes, have you seen what I've put forward recently? Yes, I read it briefly: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382922¤tpage=166#3310 Two things... 1) I really don't get that line of analysis. What about that particular voting pattern makes it likely for scum to have done that? You don't explain why scum would vote Sandroba then not vote to lynch him the next day as compared to other alternatives. I don't feel that it is a super-likely voting pattern. 2) I would go after Acro before Z-Bo, presumably once both Toad and I end up dead for being way more likely to be scum. ...the fuck? Like I don't even understand this line of defense. You think you're "more likely to be scum" than Acro and Z-Bo? What. In. The. Hell. | ||
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On November 26 2012 10:33 Promethelax wrote: what he is saying is that he thinks the rest of town sees him as more likely to be scum. If you read his posts in Draz's voice they follow an internal logic at least. Yes, but the self-criticism is still really strange when compared to his past games. Like his activity this game is actually an improvement over other games I've seen him play in. In those other, less-active games, he's far less apologetic for his behavior. Even as a blue role (vigi in Mario Mini), he was pretty un-apologetic about his early-game lurkiness. | ||
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On November 26 2012 10:36 Promethelax wrote: Hapa, now that you are here, I'm curious as to why you wanted Marv to lead the party over the 'confirmed' town players. I get that you think his reads are better (which is factual) but I don't see the benefit of him leading the mission and, if it was up to me, he wouldn't even be on it. Well because I read him pretty strongly as town based on his interest level and general tone (inquisitive, sardonic, etc). I initially voted marv 'cause I trusted him to put a party together more than the other more "confirmed" townies. I'm pretty comfortable with how things are going now, since the parties seem to be nearly identical to I was proposing earlier. | ||
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On November 26 2012 10:32 marvellosity wrote: his self-pity is remarkably tedious, i will say that. Gah I'm so torn on how to interpret it though. Like on the one hand, the self-pity is pretty similar to his Newbie XX mafia game. If you remember my case from that game... http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=349066¤tpage=12#230 ... he was very apologetic and passive, somewhat similar to his tone this game. Howwwweva, he's constantly calling attention to himself and his own lurkiness, which can be interpreted as town. Confuzzled I am. | ||
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Well first-off, while I'm interested in hearing your responses, I'm more interested in seeing you scumhunt. But that being said, there are some things I want to hear about: On November 26 2012 10:28 Hopeless1der wrote: I supported sandroba for party leader and I've failed to do anything in terms of scumhunting, I go on to defend sandroba from a lynch, and of course he flips scum. If you weren't getting scumvibes from me, you're giving me too much credit (or too little ) The townie motivation is...I thought I was right. I was clearly wrong as evidenced by sand's flip. This kind of thing can't be adequately defended against because I hadn't put any effort into the thread and it would come down to "because I said so" as my defense. Its a waste of time, and I'd rather acknowledge the fact that I look scummy and move on. P.S. This was not a ploy like the one I pulled day 1 in Looney, this is me being bad. The fact that I went after Z-Bo is because of the day 1 voting, he just happened to have the case against me at the time. The issue here is that you see "mafia motivation" in your own actions, which is really odd, given that a townie-Hopeless would have less doubts about his actions. Perhaps it was a poor choice of words, but it is a notable choice nonetheless. On November 26 2012 10:45 Hopeless1der wrote: For Toad, on the off chance that he was telling the truth, I didn't want him taking damage. Otherwise, redcheck = lynch, and he's dead regardless of the damage he may take. It might have made it happen sooner if we aimed damage at him, but that's like playing into modkills. Secure the lynch if you want scum. If a vig helps you along the way, cool, but play to lynch imo. TC - He was getting pushed by Acro and Z-Bo and I thought he came off looking scummy. I didn't want to lynch sandroba, and TC insisted he was never planning on giving townreads or even using townreads to make his party, and waffled whether or not his plan was bad a couple times. I found it scummy, and the post I voted off of was him saying he'd vote for reasons that are not necessarily connected to being scum (number of votes someone has). As to the damage, its not like its possible to confirm it, so why claim it? I didn't know what Toad would do, but he admitted to having a heal, and I would like one, so what the hell, might as well ask. Uhh... that bolded part makes no sense. You didn't believe TheChronicler's check on Toad, but you believed Acro's check on toad. This would be fine and dandy if Acro wasn't your top scumread right now. Please explain. Also, who's your top scumread atm? | ||
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On November 26 2012 11:05 Hopeless1der wrote: Toad claimed in response to TC's check: + Show Spoiler + On November 25 2012 11:50 Toadesstern wrote: When did you check Sandroba and when did you check me? Sandroba just flipped frame busdriver, just asking because I'm not mafia. I'm Johnny the attention-whore robot. I'm leader of a gang and therefore got the biggest ego in town. If I don't get 1 vote per day I take lots and lots of dmg. I don't want to get too much into detail there but I would have taken 500 damage yesterday had noone voted for me. Not entirely sure because of my internet going out but I wasn't able to ask Greymist because of that so I just wanted to be safe because my role already got changed once... Besides being able to literally kill myself I can use one of my machines and charge them for healing powers. I can only charge or heal, not both per night. I hit myself n1 for 100dmg and I should have targeted Hapa this cycle for 100 dmg getting a 2nd charge. Not sure if I can actually copy & paste my role, so I just described it and the best way to play it probably would have been to outright claim it d1 but I wanted to play it out, therefore I tried to be somewhat okayish d1, getting at least 1 vote (thx oats :3 ) and lurked d2, hoping that would do the trick to get a vote on me. It didn't so I started to behave more and more retarded by the minute until I had people voting for me :p Things that I have posted before: My role says I need to be voted at least once a day. That's why I said I assumed you can't vote yourself. Greymist told me to change it to "you need to be voted once per cycle by someone OTHER than yourself" Again, would have been best to outright claim it but I wanted to play it out. I had a bullshit postingrestriction last game as well and it freaked me the fuck out that I wasn't allowed to post for 48hours straight when I wanted to so badly. This time I just when chilling and thought I'll live with it instead of stressing me out how horrible this role is. So again: When did you check me and Sandro? And sorry for playing the way I did but I really had to. I don't assume you'll stop lynching me because I might as well make up some ridiculous bullshit and had this planned since the very first hour of the game I guess... Anyway don't listen to Kita, don't lynch Draz. I'm going to use my 200HP heal on someone tonight, I don't think I'll be able to gather another charge if the next cycle is a lynch again and we (somehow oO) got a red check on me after how I played :p He 'explains' how he doesn't need the vote to stick here: + Show Spoiler + On November 25 2012 14:18 Toadesstern wrote: am I allowed to quote my pm? It says at any point during the day included in the party or get a vote. I asked Greymist about it d1 and he said a single vote on me is enough as long as it's someone elses. I don't need to be in the party and it doesn't have to be like that at the end of the cycle because of the "at any time during the day". Did Chronicle claim to check me n1 or was it n2 as well? I mean if it's n1 there's no point in talking and you'll lynch me either way and I'll just ask you to watch at him after I flip. I highly doubt you're going to stop lynching me even if he says / said n2. I just claimed to get you know, 4 days ahead of time (assuming lynches and events alternate) instead of the moment I flip and have huge chaos. Right now there's not much I can ruin because people will vote for a someone out of the d1-party anyways. It was more a matter of 'what if Toad is telling the truth' than whether or not I believed TC's claim (or Acro's). Very rarely is it a good idea to ignore a claimed redcheck (grush notwithstanding) but its a themed game, crazy shit happens. My scumreads on either Acro or Z-Bo are very dependent on Toad flipping town. If he flips Queen Zeal like Acro says, I eat my words and try to find scum elsewhere, but one thing at a time. I've yet to go through properly, but I remember Z-Bo being suspicious of Toad because his posting didn't match his LVII game where Toad was an assassin. If he was right, he called it really early and I'd call it an unlikely bus. Ok the bolded makes absolutely no sense with your previous posts. I think it is very likely that at least 1 scum gave support to sandroba for party leader before the swap to syllo. During the lynch cycle, the following players voted to lynch sandroba that had previously voted him to be party leader:
Acro and Z-Bo voted for Toad, I parked my vote on TheChronicler and then lurked. To me, that points to one of me, Acro or Z-Bo being scum, and considering draz's moment of inspired thought: + Show Spoiler + On November 26 2012 02:10 CaveJohnson wrote: 09:30 - Flip 09:51 - Acro's first post after flip 10:32 - TC's roleclaim and his first post after flip 13:20 - Acro's roleclaim Why would anyone believe Acro? the only interesting thing is he gave us an actual role name but if I was scum in that situation I would know to throw toad under the bus. Doing it after TC's role claim was pointless. If you get a red flip you claim ASAP 1-1 trades are always good for town. No exceptions. Acro's claim SHOULD have been before TC's if it was real. Your "scumread" on Acro isn't dependent at all on Toad flipping town. It's not even part of your analysis. Hell I'm looking through your filter and I'm seeing all sorts of strange regarding your attitude on Toad. I'll post that in a minute, but I do want to know why you're suggesting your suspicion on Z-Bo/Acro is conditional on Toad flipping town. | ||
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Man...Fuck you Acro, its not fair to call me an idiot when you ROLE+ALIGNMENTCOP a player. ##Unvote: Toadesstern ##Vote: Oatsmaster Robo for president Hopeless immediately has no doubts about Acro's powers. His confidence and complete lack of doubt hints that he has no doubts about Acro's alignment either. On November 26 2012 01:46 Hopeless1der wrote: you think acro faked his copclaim as well? Continuing on, he questions (basically criticizes) Djo with Acro's "claim," again showing absolute confidence in the claim. On November 26 2012 02:36 Hopeless1der wrote: That doesn't sound like your super convinced toad is scum =\ Hopeless criticizes risk for not finding Toad scummy... | ||
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On November 26 2012 11:28 Hopeless1der wrote: I'd say its probably worth another go, and I didn't really think about who could benefit more than me. I'm not a greater asset, now that you ask. And as for the 500hp vig shot, yes in hindsight probably not the best move if we could finish him off. @Hapa: + Show Spoiler + On November 26 2012 11:19 Hapahauli wrote: Ok the bolded makes absolutely no sense with your previous posts. Your "scumread" on Acro isn't dependent at all on Toad flipping town. It's not even part of your analysis. Hell I'm looking through your filter and I'm seeing all sorts of strange regarding your attitude on Toad. I'll post that in a minute, but I do want to know why you're suggesting your suspicion on Z-Bo/Acro is conditional on Toad flipping town. Acro has a 1-shot role+alignment check on Toad. Its referencd in the post you quoted, through another quote via Draz, I neglected to emphasize it. I still ended with the conclusion that both Toad and I would flip town, and my hopes that our flips would be followed by pressure on Acro/Z-Bo. Wait you concluded that Toad would flip town? Where? | ||
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On November 26 2012 11:37 Hapahauli wrote: Wait you concluded that Toad would flip town? Where? I need your response to the above. I can't find where you "conclude" this. Secondly... http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382922¤tpage=172#3435 Why were you so confident in Acro's claim early on? Also, why were you so seemingly confident that Toad was scum early on in the cycle? | ||
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On November 26 2012 12:24 marvellosity wrote: your original case a couple pages ago is still the most persuasive thing. A lot of the contradictions that have been pointed out are actually consistent with his convoluted line of thinking, so i don't think they're as damning as they look outwardly. While I agree that the "contradictions" can be explained if we accept that his read was indeed "conditional" (but unmentioned), I'm pretty convinced that the bolded (below) is a scumslip (re: toads alignment). In fact a lot of his recent actions seem to be setting up for Toad to flip non-mafia. I think it's a very legitimate possibility that Toad is a third party role or something. Though this would rely on mafia framing Toad both N1 (Chronicler check) and N2 (Acro check). On November 26 2012 11:28 Hopeless1der wrote: I'd say its probably worth another go, and I didn't really think about who could benefit more than me. I'm not a greater asset, now that you ask. And as for the 500hp vig shot, yes in hindsight probably not the best move if we could finish him off. @Hapa: + Show Spoiler + On November 26 2012 11:19 Hapahauli wrote: Ok the bolded makes absolutely no sense with your previous posts. Your "scumread" on Acro isn't dependent at all on Toad flipping town. It's not even part of your analysis. Hell I'm looking through your filter and I'm seeing all sorts of strange regarding your attitude on Toad. I'll post that in a minute, but I do want to know why you're suggesting your suspicion on Z-Bo/Acro is conditional on Toad flipping town. Acro has a 1-shot role+alignment check on Toad. Its referencd in the post you quoted, through another quote via Draz, I neglected to emphasize it. I still ended with the conclusion that both Toad and I would flip town, and my hopes that our flips would be followed by pressure on Acro/Z-Bo. | ||
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But yeah lynching Toad at the next opportunity is probably the more-sane option. | ||
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Also I came to a bit of a conclusion on Hopeless: 1) If Toad somehow magically flips non-mafia, Hopeless needs to get insta-lynched for repeatedly speculating so. 2) If Toad flips scum, I think Hopeless is town (or at the very least non-mafia). Him constantly speculating that Toad might flip green (in this scenario) is a really odd path of analysis for someone to take if they knew Toad was mafia. Possibly mafia attempting to contribute, but even then, it's still not something I'd expect mafia to do. Also, he was reasonably quick to defend himself, and his statements seem consistent with a mentality (albeit a strange one). | ||
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On November 27 2012 04:06 Clarity_nl wrote: Why is everyone so much smarter than I am. ... so you unequivocally agree with me? | ||
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Huh? What does that have to do with anything? | ||
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On November 27 2012 04:16 Clarity_nl wrote: Yeah, it makes sense. Not to call him confirmed or anything if toad flips red but it would clear him in my book. I'd be hesitant to completely clear him, since there are still some really strange things in his filter (and a lack of scumhunting). Like I can totally see mafia doing what he's doing, but I don't find it very likely if Toad is indeed red. | ||
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On November 27 2012 04:19 Hopeless1der wrote: Toad needs to flip Queen Zeal specifically, or Acro was misinformed in some way. Uh yeah, well that much is obvious. But even then, that doesn't say much about Acro really. | ||
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Oh well. @ Hopeless Curious - did Toad end up healing you? | ||
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Lastly, it looks like lynches aren't every other cycle. We need to think about focus-firing players as a town and/or using damage abilities that we have available. | ||
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My party will be Dienosaur, Kei, and either Chronicler or Acro If you for whatever reason do not feel safe with Chronicler/Acro, I can add Oatsmaster in that slot. Why you can trust me I think the parties I proposed above are as near confirmed town as we can get in this situation. Given this player pool, you can trust me. Why? Because if we failed the mission, I would be holding a neon-sign saying "LYNCH ME." This is suicidal for me to do as scum. | ||
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On November 27 2012 10:10 Keirathi wrote: I see no reason to put 2 non successful party members in the party today (You, and Chronicler/Acro). And, you couldn't replace Acro/Chronicler with Oats. The only possible way you could replace them would be with syllo. Oh I totes confused names for some reason. Yes Syllo instead of Chronicler/Acro. Whaddya think? I'm in a position where I'm not under suspicion, and I (as hypothetical scum) would only have everything to lose by presenting myself like this. | ||
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On November 27 2012 10:15 Promethelax wrote: you have nothing to lose at all. Note how Toad confirmed himself as scum and is still around. NO ONE VOTE TOAD! Sure I would. A team of Syllo, Dieno, Kei would be basically confirmed town. If we failed the mission with me as leader, I'd be immediately outing myself as scum. I'm only doing this because I indeed have nothing to lose since I'm town. | ||
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On November 27 2012 10:19 Promethelax wrote: buddy, being confirmed scum doesn't hurt you. look at Toad. Well it will hurt him when town focus-fires him down next cycle. On November 27 2012 10:18 strongandbig wrote: maybe scum can "decide whether to sabotage the party or play along" maybe the scum team knows something we don't and is freaking out about our winning three in a row never trust greymist man From everything I've read in Greymists' filter, all players have a hidden modifier and scum has no choice in "playing along." It's entirely possible that the missions do something behind the scenes, but I don't know, and that's not my intention here. If no one trusts me, I'll just drop things and move on, but it's not like I'm some random 1-2 page filter lurker proposing to be party leader. I'd like to think that I look townie on my own merits, but that's up to you folks to decide. | ||
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On November 27 2012 10:26 Keirathi wrote: I think the point is that after we lynch Toad during the next lynch cycle, that we may never even HAVE another lynch cycle. Meaning that even if you outed yourself as scum, we wouldn't necessarily have a way to do anything about it. I can't imagine that town collectively doesn't have enough abilities to dispatch of Toad in a cycle if we focus him down. I'd like to think that the game is balanced well enough that being 99.9% confirmed scum is pretty darn bad. Oh well. I'll be sitting here lonely and sad since I'm not going to be included on the mission. =( | ||
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On November 27 2012 10:59 Promethelax wrote: he voted and posted, you haven't been reading the thread (also obvious in your mixing up names event). This is not your town play. You are not town. You should not be a member of this party. Oh did he? I must have completely missed him then. But if you're going to call me scum, put up or shut up. I've been dealing with these passive accusations by you the entire game and they're getting old real fast. | ||
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On November 27 2012 11:04 Promethelax wrote: it isn't a case. It is: you are better than this. This is not your town play. You have been in and out, not laying heavy pressure on people, not trying to be the guy who takes control and skating by. These accusations aren't passive your play does not match your town play. It doesn't match your scum play either but after mario I assume you've been working on that. Oh shut the fuck up Prom. Do you have a case or will you keep up with this OMGUS stuff? Hell I misread stuff as town all the time, and apparently my play is not "good enough" simply because I missed VE's silent vote on Oats in the voting thread. So tell me - apparently you've been hiding this secret thought that I've been scum, yet you've never made a case on me, and even agreed with my case on Hopeless less than 24 hours ago. Describe to me how that's a town thought process. | ||
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1) I'm "easy to read" On November 21 2012 11:01 Promethelax wrote: ... Based on the fact that Acro had the same though as me and from our last game together I would currently, put him in my team, along with Acro I would add Marv (come on, wouldn't you?) and as third player I would chose Hapa. Hapa is a guy who over many games I have come to like and respect though I once hated him. He is a great town player and a kinda crappy scum player, seems like the right guy to have along for the ride. ... 2) Passive Suspicion Clarity, i would agree with you if Hapa's reaction to Kier's questions had been what I expect from a town Hapa but it wasn't. My short list is a little bit shorter. Why would you vote anyone you don't have a town read on? 3) More Passive Suspicion I would expect an explanation from you, Hapa, as to why you mind changed. Not an explanation from someone else while you got mad about being asked. My version of your town meta is where you pressure people until they cry and admit that they are scum or poop themselves in fear of your tunnels even though they are town. hapa: How many games have you played with Sandro that make you aware of, and able to read, his meta? Clarity: I see your reasoning and agree with it, I just don't have that town feel from Hapa. (as Hapa knows I never have a town feel from him). 4) More Passive Suspicion Marv: while Hapa is a cute little hedgehog he is usually a responsive one. Not getting a scum read from his behavior but I am uncomfortable with him not explaining himself and getting defensive instead. 5) More Passive Suspicion Hapa reads as non-town to me he has not been the assertive, pushy in my face townie I expect and I don't like it. 6) More Passive Suspicion Hapa, you will not get my vote today. You come to late to change this election and I don't like that you push us away from Sand/Syllo but don't mention Kita except as a 'joke' 7) More... My read on Hapa: not assertive enough to meet either of his metas, there were some early posts which rang false to me and I do not trust him. Too early for me to say scum but not to early for me to have you far from my green list. 8) I'm Prom's top scumread Hapa: you ignored everything I said in response. I think you know better that my actions follow the way I think about the game which, as should be obvious, is not always the dominant way of thinking. Since you haven't responded to me I don't have more to add except that you are a top scum read for me now. I've never seen you, as town, push that someone is scum but also refuse to engage with them. You are more hands on. I expect this disengaged sort of attack from Zbo but not from you. 9) Despite all of the suspicion, buys into my case on Hopeless On November 26 2012 11:38 Promethelax wrote: He didn't even conclude that. When I directly asked him he said that Toad would most likely flip scum. Okay Hapa, I'm buying your case more and more the more he talks. 10) Calls me scum On November 27 2012 10:59 Promethelax wrote: he voted and posted, you haven't been reading the thread (also obvious in your mixing up names event). This is not your town play. You are not town. You should not be a member of this party. 11) Calls me not-town again despite acknowledging that my play is not like my scumplay... On November 27 2012 11:04 Promethelax wrote: it isn't a case. It is: you are better than this. This is not your town play. You have been in and out, not laying heavy pressure on people, not trying to be the guy who takes control and skating by. These accusations aren't passive your play does not match your town play. It doesn't match your scum play either but after mario I assume you've been working on that. 12) Backs off his "you're not town" rhetoric... On November 27 2012 11:13 Promethelax wrote: your case on Hopeless was good. I don't know that you are scum. I know that you are too far from your townie self for me to trust you. It isn't just the misreading/missing that I don't like. You are a guy who gets his reads from putting pressure on people which you have not done this game. So out of all of this, what have we learned? Promethelax has been pushing suspicion on me the entire game with virtually no rationale. The timing of post #8 in the sequence is especially telling - I was Prom's top scumread twodays ago: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382922¤tpage=135#2687 Despite this, he never built a case on me, never did anything to push his suspicions on me, hasn't asked people to comment on me... no way this is a town mentality. | ||
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On November 27 2012 11:33 Promethelax wrote: sorry Hapa maybe that wasn't clear. I don't know that you are scum. I am pretty sure you are not town. Not town =/= scum. Dien: poll=bad idea no way to old people accountable for their votes/choices Oh give me a break. You, of your own admission, are sure that I'm not town, and have not yet once built a case on me? That's a load of shit. Ya know what, let's have a scavenger hunt through Prom's filter. Prom has 12 pages of filter, and hasn't made a single case. He's never made any attempts to analyze posts, and his filter is devoid of scumhunting beyond pushing passive suspicion. Promethelax is scum. There's no sane way that you have this little scumhunting in 12 pages of filter. Much less that you are "sure that I'm not town" and haven't pushed your case to other players or even made a case on me. G | ||
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On November 27 2012 11:35 Promethelax wrote: also a top scum read is different than totally my top scum read this guy 100%. I think you understand what an indefinite article is. I was your TOP SCUMREAD. That's a pretty fucking significant statement. So you're telling me you never bothered to pursue or push your "TOP SCUMREAD" for TWO DAYS? Yeah ok buddy. | ||
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On November 27 2012 11:54 Promethelax wrote: you were a top scum read. Why would I bother to push my read on you as scummy, you were scummy and I could do nothing about it. Until you started pushing yourself as a leader (again) when I brought that back up because you should not be leader and, were it up to me, you'd also not be in the party. No one who is new to the party should be the leader. That is fucking dumb. We have guys who have been partially confirmed by the game mechanics and we have to choose someone to receive a reward which helps town, do we set one of the partially confirmed guys up to take it or do we give it to the other guy who really wants to be a leader? I'm going through your filter now. Town. Please read this. Please. | ||
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On November 27 2012 12:08 Promethelax wrote: My read didn't matter. You were scummy and I did not use my ability to protect you. Now, when you tried to put yourself in a party I opposed you. Similar to when, in a normal game, we would propose lynch candidates in this game we oppose quest members. I oppose you for quest member. When we had a chance to lynch I was more confidant in Sand being scum than you being scum. Your insistence that scum would not want to push themselves onto the party because 1 for 1 is dumb and you know it. re-reading your filter I don't think I can make a strong case on you Hapa. The thing is I also can't make a strong town case for you. I'm battling my usual Hapa=scum mentality but I can't decide which way I've erred. Either way you are not my top scum read right now. Toad is scum. After Toad there are a few people I would am looking at: you, Syllo, Zbo and the TC/Hope/Acro triangle. ROFL wow. You push me a scummy and not-town the entire game, and then the second I confront you to come up with acutal analysis, you completely change your mind and cop out. | ||
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On November 27 2012 12:13 Keirathi wrote: There was no lynch. I don't particularly see a problem with your whole "He wasn't pushing his scum read" thing when he had no avenue for getting you killed. There are a lot of people that aren't pushing scum reads and you're just singling him out because he said he didn't want you in the party. FWIW, I have a very slight town read on Prom. Not enough to bet on it or anything, but that's the way I'm leaning right now. And I still wouldn't ever lynch him over toad, and someone out of the whole TC/Acro/Hopeless debacle. Well of course I wouldn't lynch him over toad, but I'd strongly consider lynching him next. I understand that there was "no avenue" to kill me, but the real issue here is that 1) He called me a top scumread and didn't ever push his suspicions. He was apparently comfortable keeping this to himself and keeping it as quiet as possible? When you call someone a top scumread as town, what is your first instinct? To not do anything? No way. 2) There's basically nothing else in his filter resembling scumhunting. He pokes, prods, and asks a bunch of questions. But he has no cases, barely any analysis, and really barely anything of substance beyond his defenses. On November 27 2012 12:14 Promethelax wrote: look, if I was scum I'd cherry pick your filter and build a damn good case. I'm giving you my honest read. Which is: confused. You can't build one cause there isn't a case to be built. | ||
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On November 27 2012 12:24 Promethelax wrote: I am not building one because the one I made didn't convince me. there are things in your favour and things that point to you being scum. I am not going to make a case that I'm not convinced of (though I tried to in ACME) my gut read on you is anti-town and there are things to back that up. My case comes out null though and therefore I am not going to push you. Do you really think that I am such a bad scum player that when pressured I would make no case? Go look at XIX, I can make one hell of a convincing case as scum. There is nothing to be gained by not making one if I am scum. Apparently yes. I really don't care what you say you could have done. Your actions right now are scummy as hell, regardless of what "alternatives" you point to. You've made no cases. You've barely scumhunted. When I confronted you about your read on me, you immediately backtracked and had nothing to show for it. | ||
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On November 27 2012 12:31 Keirathi wrote: @Hapa: I find it strange that rather than asking me to expand on my town read on Prom, you decided it would be a better idea to repeat to me your reasonings that he is scum. Like I wasn't able to read them 15 posts ago. I re-explained it because it seems like you missed the point. Apparently you didn't, read my post, and still think he's "slightly-town." Really didn't think that was possible. Needless, it should be implied that I pretty strongly disagree with your read. So do elaborate. | ||
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On November 27 2012 12:32 Promethelax wrote: watch out Kier, you've been passively accusing him all game. That probably makes you scum and stuff. If he'd been doing it for 12 pages, and called me his top scumread w/out making a case, I'd agree. | ||
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On November 27 2012 12:42 Keirathi wrote: It's mostly meta things that Prom has done as town and scum. For one, the day 2 "gambit" that secured sandroba's lynch (at least for me). Town Prom loves pulling silly gambits that have the potential to backfire horrendously (just look at his two gambits in ACME; they were terrible and got townies lynched [no offense prom]). The whole "sandroba: why did you target syllo" is definitely something town Prom would do. Yes, but are these unique to his town play? In a couple of obs QT conversations, I've seen him talk about how much he loved exciting plays and "gambits" in scum-games as well. This is not alignment indicative. And the reason I don't think scum Prom would have done it is because of his scum play in newbie XIX. He played all-or-nothing for the entire game, and by the end was entirely linked with both of his partners. I'm sure he's a better player now than he was then, and sandro could have said "Hey Prom, bus me!" in scum QT, but my gut is still that that isn't the way he would have done it. I'm not getting what you're saying here. Prom did vote Sandro, but very late and only after a bunch of players lead the charge on Sandro. | ||
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On November 27 2012 12:38 Promethelax wrote: man, definite article and indefinite article mean totally different things. You were one of my top scum reads (ergo: "a top scumread). Looking back through your filter instead of looking at how your play feels I have more of a null read on you. As I mentioned there are good reasons to point to your scumminess and good reasons which point towards your townieness. You still have given none of those reasons. So give me a breakdown of your attitude on me. Why null as opposed to alternatives? | ||
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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382922¤tpage=40#795 I just stumbled across it and it does give me pause. I'm not sure what motivation Prom would have about tearing down Sandro's campaign at this stage of the game. Sandro's campaign wasn't doing all that bad at this point. On a side note, I really need to go back and look over the votes from D1. That's something that's been pretty absent from our analysis thusfar. | ||
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On November 27 2012 13:14 Keirathi wrote: I'm talking about day 2. Sandro claimed that he was roleblocked, and Prom said "Sandro, why did you target syllogism?" Then Sandro answered that he used Shadow on syllogism. That was a major factor in me voting for Sandro, because at the time, I thought Prom was implying that he was some kind of watcher/tracker, and that Sandro had targetted Syllo even though he claimed to be roleblocked and was therefor lying. Then, of course, Prom explained his ability the next day, and it was nothing like that, just a gambit/hunch that sandro had targetted syllo. Now, does that seem like a normal way to bus, if your scum team is telling you to bus in the QT? I don't. It would have been much more natural to either just sheep onto the wagon or make up a case. Well it looks like Promethelax voiced his initial suspicions of Sandro in this post: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382922¤tpage=114#2276 ...where he insta-votes him and is really confident he's scum. All that you describe is after the fact, after Prom is "convinced" that Sandro is scum. All that reads super-strange to me, and reads as really really forced. I can see where you're coming from though that it is a very unnecessary release of information on his part. I have some thinking to do about that. | ||
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On November 27 2012 13:20 Keirathi wrote: EBWOP: Again, I don't necessarily have a strong read on Prom. Maybe he is scum, maybe he's not. But we have 2 red checks that are our number 1 and 2 priorities, and I doubt we'll get a third lynch cycle, so this discussion is kind of pointless. Uhh did I miss something? Who's our 2nd red check? | ||
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On November 27 2012 13:22 Keirathi wrote: TC has a parity check on Acro and Hopeless. They are different alignments. Ohhhh. So Hopeless is scum then. Well guess my last thing on him was quite wrong then. | ||
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On November 27 2012 13:27 Keirathi wrote: I'm pretty on the fence about which one of the two are scum. I mean, a case can definitely be made for Hopeless being scum. Hell, they HAVE been made. But I could make a case that Acro is scum too :o Not to mention the fact that TC checked Acro vs Hopeless is weird as fuck to begin with. Well the check makes sense given Hopeless's rather strange attitude toward Acro (and Z-Bo). Given the two, I'd take Acro as the townie in a heartbeat. There is of course the outside chance that there's a mafia-framer type ability somewhere, but thankfully all this is after we lynch Toad ofc. | ||
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On November 27 2012 13:34 Keirathi wrote: Yes, checking Hopeless makes sense. Checking him against someone who's still an "unknown" rather than against one of the near-confirmed town people is what doesn't make sense. Why not check him against, say, Dieno? And there are just too many weird things about Acro for me to ignore. Do tell. To me he seems pretty engaged with things. I don't know what he's capable of as scum, but his filter looks pretty townie at first glance. | ||
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On November 27 2012 13:49 Keirathi wrote: First, the whole One-Shot Role Cop with a red check on Toad, but doesn't claim it until AFTER TC comes in claiming a parity check with Toad being scum. One-Shot Cop with a red check is an insanely easy way to claim towncred, especially if your teammate has already been outed and likely to be lynched. I will admit that he could have just been thinking "oh, there's no lynch today, so no real reason to claim right now" if he was town and then only claimed he also had a red check on Toad because TC had already claimed. It's hard to determine which one is more likely though, so its a minor point, but I'm paranoid Then, he refused to be put into the party yesterday. And refuses to explain why. I'm not the only one who thought that was fishy. Again, a minor point, but it makes me second guess my earlier town read, because I don't see much motivation for a person who knows that he is town to flat out refuse to be in the party, without giving some kind of explanation. And then, of course, the parity check. Like I said, none of the things in and of themselves are super strong points, but how many little "weird, logically improbable" things does it take before that person becomes scum? Those are fair points. Especially the party thing - goes back to what I was running my candidacy on, being the lone scum in a pool of confirmed townies is pretty bad news. I'm really unsure about why Acro wouldn't claim his mechanic - generally it's pro-town to reveal those things (somewhat like a self-aware miller claim). Well that's enough to sleep on I suppose. Acro, Prome, and Z-Bo are all on the to-do list for tomorrow. Gnite! | ||
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On November 27 2012 17:51 Clarity_nl wrote: Hapa can you confirm that you took 100 damage last cycle, and 50 this cycle, please? Confirmed. Toad claimed he hit me the first time. I'm not sure where the second bit came from. | ||
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On November 27 2012 23:31 Clarity_nl wrote: I healed him this cycle and he didn't mention it. What do you think of that? Oh thanks buddy <3 Though that just means I took more than 50 damage, which is certainly :sadface: but oh well. | ||
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On November 27 2012 23:39 Clarity_nl wrote: I asked the host if you still get notified of your heal or not, waiting for a response. I'm all out of heals now though, guys, so you're on your own TT Well if you indeed healed me, I only received 1 pm from the host tonight stating the damage I took (50). We'll wait for the hosts to confim things, but that's what happened on my end. On November 27 2012 23:05 Keirathi wrote: You do have a reasonable argument, although I think Hapa's is stronger. But you completely ignored my counter-argument of why I had been thinking Prom was town (granted, I said it to Hapa rather than you, but point still stands). I just don't see how the "facts" damn him to being scum. I see a possible scum explanation, and a possible town explanation, and I don't plan for this to turn into the "Shut up and sheep Syllo" show. It was like pulling teeth to even get you to explain to begin with. I'm not sure which direction I would lean on Prom right now. right now. Mostly null, I guess. But again for the millionth time, HE'S NOT A PRIORITY TARGET. WE HAVE TWO RED CHECKS TO DEAL WITH FIRST. I think we all know that Toad needs to die first, as well as one of Acro/Hopeless. However, that doesn't mean we shouldn't be hunting for scum in the meantime. Just because we have a satisfying answer for the next lynch doesn't mean we should shut down our scumhunting efforts outside of them. | ||
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On November 27 2012 23:42 iamperfection wrote: which means hapa wasn't dmg cycle 1 I assure you I was. If you don't believe me, I claimed 100 damage pretty early on in the cycle and Toad mentioned he shot me as a "+EV shot" or something (before he was confirmed scum to the thread). So where's the theory here? That Toad and I are scumbuddies? That he didn't just shoot me in self-preservation after I was one of the few to press for his lynch D2? | ||
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On November 27 2012 23:48 iamperfection wrote: then why didn't you report my heal? Because I didn't receive notification of a heal >> So either a) You didn't heal me (but I don't know why you'd lie about that) b) I took more than 100 damage | ||
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I took 0 damage D1, 100 damage D2 50 damage D3 Forgot D1 existed for some reason >> All I know is that I received a PM after Day 2 stating I took 100 damage Then I received a PM after D3 stating I took 50. I'm grateful that you guys healed me, but either I didn't receive the heal or I simply took a but-load of damage on those days. I'm thinking the latter. | ||
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On November 28 2012 01:18 syllogism wrote: I don't see why mafia would shoot you for massive damage on those two days, when their main priority should be eliminating semi-confirmed townies. I can't believe you two were healing him anyway, but I perhaps he didn't believe it either. Hapa definitely shouldn't be on a team until this is sorted out. Well both of those guys (clarity and iamp) have town reads on me, so the heals make sense from that perspective. From what I understand: Post-D1: I took 0 damage. Either iamp's claimed heal was completely wasted OR it nullified any damage directed towards me. Post-D2: I took 100 damage. No one healed me (or no one has claimed so), and Toad claimed he shot me for 100. Post-D3: I took 50 damage, and nl_clarity healed me for an undisclosed amount, indicating that I took more than 50 damage. | ||
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Day 1, I wasn't particularly active as compared to my normal play as either allignment. This is consistent with me not getting shot or taking minimal damage. Day 2, I was a tad more active and was one of the first votes on Toad. This is consistent with Toad wanting to eliminate me. Day 3, I've been much more active, making cases on Hopeless and Promethelax. I could have been "rewarded" for this by getting targeted by mafia. | ||
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On November 28 2012 01:27 iamperfection wrote: you are not listening. say you took 20 dmg and i healed you. You would get you took 20 dmg and you were healed you took no damage cycle1 Oh ok, so that narrows things down on D1, and I didn't take any damage. | ||
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On November 28 2012 02:08 Hopeless1der wrote: Him being scum is unlikely, regarding that last line? He was amongst the first to build a case and push Toad: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382922¤tpage=127#2523 He did so before it was popular, and really aggressively pushed him as a lynch option on the D2 lynch. I find it incredibly unlikely that he was scum and did so. | ||
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On November 28 2012 02:07 GreYMisT wrote: IF you take 150 damage and are healed for 100 damage in the same night, you will be told You took 50 damage You were healed. Oooh interesting. So I didn't receive anything about getting healed, and healing actions towards me didn't go through for whatever reasoh. | ||
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Acro made a comment on wanting to hear an explanation about you healing me D1, and I'm inclined to agree. You had a really strong town read on me D1... On November 23 2012 05:27 iamperfection wrote: From phone I saw hapas post he has my sword this is town hapa [b]## vote hapa [b//] ...however it's pretty unexplained. Is you being drunk Thanksgiving the only explanation you have for this (both the town-read and the heal)? Needless to say it's not very convincing. | ||
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In addition, his day 1 actions line up pretty well with what I'd expect scum to do. Strong early support for Sandroba's candidacy, barely any mention of other candidates (other than a lone, slimly-discussed vote on Goodkarma), and a strong early buss of Sandroba on D2. | ||
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Overall, I think we're starting to focus too much on players that are drawing attention to themselves rather than looking for people not in the spotlight. Players like Acro and Hopeless are really engaged with the thread atm, and while I'm waffling wildly on them (especially Hopeless), I'm starting to think this is a town trait. | ||
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On November 28 2012 03:42 Keirathi wrote: Hey, you forgot about me! In all seriousness, I'm not really sure what to do about you. I mentioned the things I found off about your play this game to Hapa. And third party could definitely explain them. My problem, of course, is that so could scum. In a game with a limited amount of lynches, as it seems, third party survivor makes a ton of sense for scum to fake-claim. Anyways, does your role PM specifically mention someone "hunting" you, so to speak? If so, why the hell did you claim at all? If not, why is your default assumption that there is someone looking for you? I think Toad fits a 3rd party read to a T. The guy is incredibly active, and largely pro-town, with some slightly "off" things in his filter. That's a really classic example of a third party. But since we all think that Toad is 99.9% scum, consider this: Acro was the first person to build a significant case and push Toad's lynch. On top of this, he did this on D2, when Sandroba was the consensus lynch. There is no conceivable way that Scum would turn down an easy bussing opportunity to bus another of their teammates. Makes no damn sense from a mafia perspective. | ||
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On November 28 2012 03:58 Acrofales wrote: Herpaderp. PARITY CHECK. SAME as Sandroba. The 0.1% chance is in the event that he got double-framed or something. Super super unlikely yes, but just acknowledging the remote possibility. You seem to be arguing semantics though, since I wouldn't dream of lynching/killing anyone else before him. | ||
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I"m curious, do you think risk is scum? I'm generally worried about going after "lynch-bait" type players, but his play does seem genuinely scummy, especially weighing his crazier//less-consistent town games. | ||
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On November 28 2012 04:04 Keirathi wrote: I assume you meant Acro in that first sentence, not Toad, right? Oh fuck yes Acro. Acroacroacro. | ||
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On November 28 2012 07:10 iamperfection wrote: Uh the truth is unsatisfying? Deal with it. I regret that decision i should have healed sylo. My other 2 heals make perfect sense. I had a extremely strong town reads on clarity_nl and Marv. They both reported being healed. So i dont really care for what your getting at. if you think im scum explain it please. Was just curious and probing. Went through your filter in the last few hours and I'm pretty sure you're town. Have some reads on the lurkers pending for a post tonight. | ||
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2) VE - Shoot him dead. I actually think he might be more likely to be town than scum given his enthusiasm for playing scum. But if an elimination-based approach for finding scum is to work, he has to go. He has not posted enough to make a meaningful read... ^ That's pretty damn scummy right there. | ||
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On November 28 2012 10:19 VisceraEyes wrote: Yeah well - Kush proved that town say stupid as fuck things EXACTLY LIKE THAT in Liquid City so I subtracted that particular nonsense from the equation. It's scummy, but town say that shit too. I was focused more on the association it implied with SnB. Goodkarma is a good town player. He isn't Kush, or even close to that. | ||
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We have to try to kill Toad tonight! [/big] Any other ideas are fucking retarded. We don't know when the next lynch cycle is, and we can't risk leaving him alive forever. Furthermore, there's a good chance we can kill him - we don't know if he's at full heath or not, and there's a decent chance that we have enough collective damage to dispatch of Toad at full health. Even if we get a lynch tomorrow (which we have no way of knowing), having toad potentially alive would be really bad. We would not get any discussion done. | ||
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GK will have to do some overtime scumhunting over the next few days to convince me otherwise. | ||
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On November 29 2012 05:44 Keirathi wrote: [/big]Good god no. Don't be fucking stupid Hapa. We already know that scum had a bus driver. H1 claimed an ability that makes him completely untargetable. We have no idea what kind of protective roles scum could have. By making that claim, you've basically guaranteed that they'll use everything at their disposal to keep him alive, and waste what...2? 3? 4-5? town abilities in the process. It may have been a good idea if you didn't scream for everyone to do it, but now its just god awful retarded. Yes, let's live in fear of hypothetical scum abilities. We never know until we try, and frankly it's worth a shot. | ||
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##Vote (Party Leader) - Clarity_nl ##Lynch - Toadsstern My Reads Having that out of the way, I wanted to devote a longer post towards hashing out some of my thoughts on the game. I feel that the town right now is rather poorly focused, or at the very least, looking in the wrong direction for scum. GoodKarma (Slightly Town) While his early-game play was lacking (and pretty "scummy"), his recent defense is more than I'd ever expect from scum-GK. He's been incredibly forthcoming with his replies, and has been replying on very short time-stamps. When compared to the other scum-games I've seen out of him, it's very markedly different. In Newbie XXIII, he makes under ~10 posts on Day 1, and when a strong last-minute bandwagon forms on him, he is too scared to reply to the thread and gets himself lynched. In Mafia LVII, he makes a couple of longer posts with suspect logic, then peaces out from the thread for a couple of hours before making his next substantial reply. I have a hard time believing that GK could have transformed his scum-play so drastically in such a short time. He's being much more brave and forthcoming than anything I've seen in his scum-meta. Sure it's possible that he stepped-up his game and I won't discount that. However, he's showing no "guilt" or hesitation in his replies, and I believe they are coming from a townie (or atleast a non-mafia) GK. Hopeless1der (Town) In a similar vein towards GK, I have a hard time believing that scum-Hopeless would have defended himself as actively as he did in response to very heavy suspicion against him. In addition, he seems much more interested in this game than anything I've seen out of him. I've already posted my thoughts on him, and I think they still apply. On November 27 2012 03:50 Hapahauli wrote: ... Also I came to a bit of a conclusion on Hopeless: 1) If Toad somehow magically flips non-mafia, Hopeless needs to get insta-lynched for repeatedly speculating so. 2) If Toad flips scum, I think Hopeless is town (or at the very least non-mafia). Him constantly speculating that Toad might flip green (in this scenario) is a really odd path of analysis for someone to take if they knew Toad was mafia. Possibly mafia attempting to contribute, but even then, it's still not something I'd expect mafia to do. Also, he was reasonably quick to defend himself, and his statements seem consistent with a mentality (albeit a strange one). Promethelax (awefhkdsjfasdfb, Town) His play has confounded me so far. I find his attitudes and suspicions towards me "scummy", but like the two people above, he's defended himself without any hesitation or sense of guilt. Of everyone mentioned so far, I feel that he would be the most capable of this as scum, but I find it unlikely. He also seems to care about scum-hunting and is really engaged with the thread. Whatever his rationale for his previous stances on me are, I feel they make sense as part of his mindset. The context of his play also really townie, and I read it as such. | ||
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My (Scum) Reads/Observations Observations As I mentioned previously, I think town is focusing too much on "spotlighted" players. We're trying to hunt for players actively drawing attention to themselves as opposed to looking for players who are trying to hide. Secondly, there is this seemingly inexplicable trend of several players having townie reads on Phagga. They make absolutely no sense to me. I actually feel Phagga's play has been scummy thusfar, and all of this seems like a way to set him up as an end-game player. But more on that in a minute. Phagga I think this is a very typical scum-player who never sticks his neck out and tries to appear agreeable. There's nothing in his filter that makes me think that he's town. He never takes a controversial stance, he's never confrontational unless the odds are stacked on his side (i.e. tunneling GK recently)... I strongly feel that he's trying to blend in with the crowd. Phagga's Super-Scummy Day 1: I like Sandroba's plan, his logic is sound. However, I find it dangerous to derive a town read from it, nothing is stopping scum to put up this plan to get themselfes elected. So first he agrees with Sandro's initial candidacy, but is hesitant. This is seemingly normal, but then things start to get strange. On November 22 2012 18:52 phagga wrote: @Goodkarma If you trust Sandro so much, why do you not vote him? If GK thinks Sandro is so townie that you includes him in your team, why should I vote you instead of Sandro? What do you say to the following: You are scum, you include a town sandro to make his team more townie, hoping to catch more votes like that. Goodkarmas candidature comes surprising, and I first liked his approach for the candidature. However, I voiced my suspicion of him yesterday, and his choice of Sandro for the team looks like a joke, as you can see in my questions to him. First he questions GoodKarma for some really really strange reasons. He insinuates that Sandro is townie, and therefore... GK is scummy... what? Nothing about this is coherent and it all reads as extremely forced. But perhaps more damning is that he never talks about a read on Sandroba outside of the three above quotes. Never reads him as town, scum, or anything. He's seemingly null on him, but then conjectures into association cases assuming that he's town. But then despite assuming that Sandroba is town in his analysis about "scum" GK, he votes kita: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382922¤tpage=58#1155 ... Kita was always in the back of my head because I liked his opening post. I was aware that he went MIA for a while, but I still thought that his candidature was serious. So when I realized that barely anyone talked about him, I thought I'd use Acros post to see if I could get some info on what people thought about him. Also, as I wrote earlier, I do think more competition is needed, and since Toad is out of the race, that leaves Kita as the most promising competitor to Sandro/Syllo. Regarding his proposed team: Dieno has claimed after I talked about the possibility to be 3rd party, and the way is behaving I think I could meanwhile accept him in the party, although there are other players that I would prefer. Prom is the one I feel really unsure about. I hope Kita thinks that one over. Nevertheless, for the time being, he gets my vote. ##Vote Kitaman ... I cannot make out a coherent or sane rationale here for voting Kita. He's not voting because he thinks Kita is town - he's voting because he wants "competition" and that he likes Kita's first post. He doesn't mention that kita is townie (strange... right?), and supports him despite having some serious misgivings about Promethelax. This is all pretty funny, given that he mentions he has a town read on Syllo in the same post. But finally, after all is said and done, he votes Syllo at the very end of the day to cover his tracks (when it's really clear that Syllo is going to win the election): On November 23 2012 07:57 phagga wrote: Kita has not answered my question regarding his team. I would have very much liked to know if he still sticks with his old team and why. Alas, I am leaning slightly town on Kita, but feel better with Syllo. I have a stronger townread on him. I trust him to make good townreads for picking people. Therefore, my vote goes to Syllo. ##Unvote ##Vote Syllogism Phagga's "Bussing" of Sandroba Phagga's D2 filter reads as scum trying to push suspicion on easy candidates. When his cases ultimately go nowhere, he falls back and votes Sandro when it's clear that Sandro is going to get lynched. He first opens up with a completely unexplained vote on Cave Johnson: On November 23 2012 18:05 phagga wrote: My list with reads on everyone has one person painted in bright red: CaveJohnson. That's were my vote goes for now. However, my list is not up to date. I will try to go through several filters and update it, so I might make a more definite vote before Kita has to make his prediction. People who are also red in my list: - Goodkarma, although I REALLY have to go through his filter now. Have not done that yet. - BioSC, lurking hardcore although he was very excited pregame, as someone mentioned Other people I want to look into/know more about: - Sandroba, I read his filter yesterday. I want to hear more from him and what he says about the current accusations - Hopeless1der, I have "looks shady, check filter" note on him, but I don't know why anymore. Will clear this up. ##Vote CaveJohnson There is no analysis here. None. He votes Cave Johnson, and lists off four other names that he finds "scummy." He then builds a nonsensical case on GoodKarma: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382922¤tpage=99#1965 I urge you to read the above, because it's completely substanceless. There is nothing in his analysis of GK that points to a scum GK. He basically suspects GK for "emotional detachment." Not scummy behavior, not anything. Just "emotional detachment." Then FINALLY, after it's clear that Sandro is going to get lynched: On November 25 2012 07:53 phagga wrote: Not finished with reading everything. Not feeling sure enough with Toad yet. I can agree to a Sandro lynch. His reluctance to defend himself, the way he talked about his scumreads (only mentioning names, barely any reasoning) and his lurking when under pressure are enough reasons for me to justify a vote. ##Unvote ##Vote Sandroba He's completely OK with lynching sandro. This is despite never following up with his reads on Cave Johnson or GoodKarma at all. No analysis. Nothing. I could go on, but I think that should sufficiently paint the picture of him as scum. That was longer than I expected, and I'm a bit tired of typing, so I'll post my other scumreads later tonight. | ||
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On November 30 2012 06:40 syllogism wrote: Hapa: that post reads like it was written out of obligation rather than out of genuine interest. Anyway, hope you realize you are never going to be included in the party until a role that explains why you didn't receive a PM about the heal flips. Clarity: did you get an answer regarding full hp healing yet? Actually yes, I did feel quite "obligated" to write it in a sense. I've been super-busy with school and haven't been able to sit down and provide any analysis. So I finally forced myself to sit down and type out my thoughts instead of lurking. As for me being a part of the party, well no I don't expect to be included. I also have no idea why you're obsessed with my lack of a heal PM. Fact is, I didn't receive any notifcation of a heal. Sure I could BS some shit about why, but that's not in the best interests of the town. Secondly, say I am lying about the PM (which I'm not) - what possible motivation could I have here to lie about not getting healed? If I knew I received the PM about me getting healed and I was scum, why would I intentionally lie about something that could be easily verifiable? It makes no sense, and I have no idea why you're pursuing the idea. Oh also since I forgot to mention: I didn't take any damage last cycle. | ||
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On November 30 2012 06:26 Clarity_nl wrote: Hapa, you say you found GK scummy on day 1, but when you came in late for the election you proposed him in your party, why? + Show Spoiler + On November 23 2012 03:38 Hapahauli wrote: Fuck it, I'm running for party leader. After sitting down and looking at Syllo and Sandrob, I'm just not very happy with how things are going. They were two players who pushed to be leaders early on, then we as a town today really sheeped on to them as opposed to truly thinking things through. I'm guilty of that myself. Even if I don't convince you to vote for me, I hope whoever is running considers some of the town-candidates I put forth in this post. Why I oppose Syllogism I really object to the rationale in this post after thinking it over. Syllogism pitches non-disclosure of his team as "optimal play" which is garbage logic. We, as a town, gain so much less information from the voting process if we all sheep onto Syllo. He's suggesting that disclosing his reads would somehow be "less-optimal", and I can't for the life of me figure out why. In addition, as mafia, he would have plenty of incentive not to disclose his "list" - mafia don't want to provide analysis if they don't have to. Syllo's entire platform is "trust me," and I'm not willing to put D1 in the hands of such a player. Why oppose Sandrob http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382922¤tpage=71#1413 I agree with a lot of what nl_Clarity said in this post. Sandrob campaigned really early and earnestly for his position, and then has all but disappeared from the thread. Sandrob hasn't contributed anything resembling a read, and this is not someone I want to be party leader D1. Why I oppose Kita Absolute joke campaign. My Proposed Party: nl_clarity Clarity has been one of the most engaged players in the game so far. He seems to truly care about what is happening and has the activity/content to back it up. This is the opposite of his scum-play in Newbie XXX (where he was far more distant in the early day), and I consider him strongly town. GoodKarma I really like the content he's posted so far, and I think it's far enough of a departure from what I've seen him to as scum to trust him. As scum he tries to blend in a lot more (Mafia LVII, Newbie XXIII), and him campaigning for party leader is the polar opposite of this. Dienosore He seemed to have claimed here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382922¤tpage=51#1017 I have no reason to disbelieve him at this point, and he would need to have coconut-sized balls as a hypothetical scum playing his first game. Others I have considered Keirathi - I still consider him town, but I have stronger reads on the above three players iamperfection - someone who seems to be town based on my meta read on him. However, I ultimately decided against this since I feel he's capable of faking his meta in the early days. What's more telling about his allignment is if he can keep up his antics. I think you misread me there. I'm saying his play in the "early game" was lacking and scummy. I quite liked his play D1. However, his activity dropped off a cliff shortly thereafter and that was the thing I found scummy in his "early game" play. | ||
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On November 30 2012 07:04 Clarity_nl wrote: You have no reason to lie if you actually got healed. But if you are scum you have reason to lie about taking damage. And if you did not take damage you would not get notified about heals, does that make sense? Oh I guess that makes sense. I assure you I'm not lying about the damage, but that's probably not too convincing on it's face. So I urge you to trust me on my scumhunting instead, especially my more recent case on Phagga. I'm pretty convinced I've caught a scum, and I'd appreciate your comments. | ||
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On November 30 2012 07:04 syllogism wrote: I'm not pursuing that idea at all and you would know if you had actually read what I said and the related earlier discussion. Yeah Clarity explained it - I still really don't get why you think I'd lie over some silly little damage numbers but whatever floats your boat. But can we please turn to more important things? Like Phagga for instance. | ||
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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382922¤tpage=251#5017 Read. Reply. That took me way too long to type to put up with this shit. | ||
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If you think I lied, vote me and shut the fuck up about it. If you think I didn't, then will someone please comment on my goddamn Phagga case. If you don't know, then read my goddamn Phagga case and make a decision based on my behavior rather than retarded speculation about night actions when we have no fucking idea what mechanics/scum-abilities/town-abilities/etc are going on behind the scenes. . | ||
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Yeah, right, fuck you. Seriously, I made my post 2 days ago, waited for your reaction, and know you come in, disregard it, call me scum and then let yourself get replaced out without me having the possibility to discuss it out with you? Fuck you, I'm not gonna play with you again, ever. "Oh noes someone built a case on me! Fuck you i'll never play with you again!" | ||
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On November 30 2012 07:39 Hopeless1der wrote: You don't care that a fucking HEAL WENT MISSING? I realize the implications for yourself, but no matter who is being questioned, this is still important to the town to try to figure it out. Phagga looks scummy from the case you've built. He's in the thread and I'd expect he'll reply. I need to read his filter myself and then I'll revisit, I need to do the same with Prox's case on GK. I won't have time to do so properly today. I have an existing scumread on Z-Boson that I need to go over as well. I'll make my reads known before this cycle ends. No I really don't. I didn't get healed and that's a fact. The issue I'm having is that a bunch of players are sitting around and pondering it without making a decision on it. The attitude seems to be "hmmm this could possibly maybe be suspicious I think." No one's come to a conclusion, and quite frankly I'm sick of being discredited for telling the truth about my night actions. | ||
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On November 30 2012 07:42 phagga wrote: @Hapa I'm pissed because he builds a case on me, does not answer my questions and then leaves the game off before I have a chance to discuss both things with him. That's just not sportsmanlike. I suppose that's fair. So you mind discussing this with me? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382922¤tpage=251#5017 | ||
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On November 30 2012 07:46 iamperfection wrote: hapa wouldn't it have been much easier and less sticking his neck out to bus sandro right from the get go? It seemed like the only 2 real candidates for lynch were sandro and to lesser extend toad. Do you interpret his suspicion of CaveJohnson and GoodKarma as sticking his neck out? I certainly don't. He votes CaveJohnson for literally no rationale. He calls him "bright red" on his list, but never elaborates, while listing rationale to call 4 other people scummy (including Sandro, keeping his options open). That's not "sticking your neck out" at all. The GK case is similar - completely substance-less. If he actively pushed his suspicions, I'd agree with you. But he doesn't. He pushes two suspicions and then votes Sandro without complaint when it is convenient for him to do so. | ||
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My list with reads on everyone has one person painted in bright red: CaveJohnson. That's were my vote goes for now. My vote is currently on CaveJohnson. Not finished with reading everything. Not feeling sure enough with Toad yet. I can agree to a Sandro lynch. His reluctance to defend himself, the way he talked about his scumreads (only mentioning names, barely any reasoning) and his lurking when under pressure are enough reasons for me to justify a vote. And even then this could be excusable... but he never mentions CaveJohnson as a scumread ever again in his filter. He's scum that forgot about one of his suspicions. In fact, the next time he metnions him, he's cooperative towards him: On November 29 2012 07:38 phagga wrote: CaveJohnson, I have 600 max HP, if you use me as Target A, I will be able to use this skill next night as well. Your action goes through normally, I get the same skill to use next night. If you trust me to be town, make me Target A instead of Acro. | ||
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Regarding "Odds on your side" Your suspicions on GoodKarma ebb and flow with the general attitude on the thread. You initially find GK scummy, then when that doesn't gain any traction, you read him as null and soft defend him: On November 26 2012 07:27 phagga wrote: Ok, I've updated my read on GK and I would no longer lynch him. When the D2 lynch came to a close, he asked people to consolidate on either sandroba or Toad. He tried to shut down any discussion that would bring in new candidates. considering that Sandro is confirmed scum and Toad is very very likely scum, I don't see the mafia motivation behind is behaviour. also, the way he acts D3 seems more pro-town than on the first day. All in all, I put GK on null for the moment. On November 26 2012 07:31 phagga wrote: Why? Scum would benefit in this situation when the thread derails/new candidates are brought forths, so I don't see the scum motivation in doing what GK did. tl;dr, i said I doubt GK is scum partially because of his behaviiour before the D2 lynch, z-boson says it could have been a buss, we disagree a bit. Then when suspicion starts to shift on GK again, you up your rhetoric and start railing him. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382922¤tpage=222#4436 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382922¤tpage=225#4481 ... which is also kinda comical because you seemingly forgot that you 180'd your read on GK: @Prom I haven't read your case completely yet, but there are good points in it. However, I might have confirmation bias as I was already leaning scum on GK beforehand. Regarding your Stance on Sandro Wrong. I wanted to get GKs reaction. I did not have a scum read on him yet. I also did not have a town read on Sandro. It was hypothetical. That's the very reason why I worded it exactly this way: "What do you say to the following". If I thought that he was scum I would have written that completely different. And yes, I still find it strange that he likes Sandros approach to the game, that he thinks Sandro is town, but that he wants to be leader himself with sandro on his team and a different appraoch? Why should I vote him then when he said himself that Sandros approach was good? That was the confusion behind it. I beg to differ. Your entire line of questioning against GK was under the assumption that Sandro was town. Why do I HAVE to mention that? It's obvious that he is at least a slight town read for me when I vote him over Syllo who I also lean town. At least I thought it would be obvious.... Also, I wrote clearly why I do not vote Syllo: I was leaning town on him, but I have no idea how he plays, so I feared in the back of my head that he might be mafia and I'm too blind to see it. Hence Kita. The thing is you never attempted to make a read on Sandro at all. In addition, you seemingly liked his ideas, thought he was slightly town, yet you were comfortable voting Kita despite having huge reservations about one of his party members (Promethelax). Regarding your stance on Cave Johnson On November 30 2012 08:14 phagga wrote: He improved. There was no need push him anymore on D3. Also, i was absent of the thread for most of D2 (which I announced beforehand). Regarding the last post, yes, I was pretty sure at that point that he is at least not scum. However, i was overeager when I wrote that post, I should have gone into this more cautiously, not revealing that much about me. I find it inconceivable that you thought CaveJohnson improved so much that you all of a sudden trusted him here. You went from convinced he was scum, to not mentioning him for days, to being super-cooperative with him. Cave maintained his "trolliness" throughout. On November 30 2012 08:27 phagga wrote: Regarding the bolded, it was specifically the conversation about acro that made me rethink my stance on it. In his filter from here on: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17025482 Also, several players stated that drazerk often plays irritating as town and scum. Many called him a coinflip. I took this into consideration. So my read changed from scum to null. Thing is, you didn't go from scum to null - you went from scum to seemingly complete trust in his ability. I can't rationalize that from a town perspective. | ||
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On November 30 2012 08:19 Keirathi wrote: How about this for a "conclusion". The most logical explanation is that either you were lying about taking damage, or Clarity was lying about healing you. Clarity is pretty obviously town, so I don't think he's lying. That leaves you. You are probably scum. There are some possible outside explanations (an ability that makes you untargetable and the person targeting you isn't notified of that; host error) that don't seem particularly likely. You haven't really jumped out at me as super-pro townie though, which is probably partly an effect of your lesser time availability, but the combination of the two has me leaning scum on you. Well then fuck you. | ||
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On November 30 2012 08:45 Clarity_nl wrote: Hapa that happens in normal games too, framer mechanic. Why are you mad that Keir just said he is leaning scum on you, like seriously. Someone calls you scum in the game of mafia and your response is "fuck you"? If someone found me scum based on actual rationale (i.e. building a case, behavior, etc), I'd be totally cool with that (well not really, but I'd be less dismissive). But most of this is substantiated on the idea that I'm somehow lying about damage, which is a) false and b) a completely ridiculous line of reasoning. | ||
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On November 30 2012 08:53 Clarity_nl wrote: No one is calling you scum except for keir, and he said LEANING scum. Yet you're screaming and shouting as if we're all ready to lynch you. It's such an overreaction I can't even begin to explain it. I think there is a reasonable chance that you lied about being healed, there's also a reasonable chance there was a position swap mechanic or something along those lines. It is however, not a ridiculous line of reasoning. Well put yourself in my shoes. Every time I pop into the thread recently, I have to deal with a discussion based entirely on night-action mechanic speculation. Apparently being open about the damage I took has been twisted into being scummy, and it pisses me off. If you want to call it an overreaction, go for it, but I'm really really pissed by all of this. Hell people seem more happy to talk about stupid things like this instead of a giant fucking case I posted on Phagga. Particularly, it blows my mind that people are ignoring this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382922¤tpage=253#5045 All of this is just some stupid safety-blanket people want to cling to instead of looking for behavior and other things that actually matter. | ||
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On November 30 2012 09:02 iamperfection wrote: we read its just hard to trust the speaker. You can complain about it all you want but which you gonna do Just read the fucking case and see if you agree with my analysis. Hell for all you know I'm bussing my "scumbuddy" or whatever, so pay freggin attention. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382922¤tpage=253#5045 Read this and tell me that he's town. I've offered you so much evidence against the fact, and as far as I can see, you're either maddeningly lazy or scum. Unfortunately, I think you're the former. | ||
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Oh, you imply that I hit on GK only because other people now wrote about him too? Wrong. Can I prove it? no. But in similar way I can say that you just started building a case on my after z-boson came at me. All I can say about that is that I really saw things I did not like and tried to point them out. I also think I do have some points that others did not mention. Others have written about GK too? Well, bad luck, there is a case about almost everyone in the game floating around by now, if it is about that I cannot go after anyone. Thing is, this is not just about GoodKarma. This is a well-established pattern of doing things that are "convenient." In addition to the stuff on GoodKarma, you also voted for Syllo when it was popular to do so. You also voted to lynch Sandrob under the same circumstances. It is the pattern, and not just your individual stance on GoodKarma that is damning. GK saw Sandro as town. If GK were scum, he would at least know that Sandro is not scum. GK wants to have sandro in his team. I don't like the reasoning of GK, I think its contradicting. I therefore make the hypothesis that if GK is scum, he takes Sandro (whom he knows not to be scum) on his team to look more townie. That's the whole story. I did not say anywhere in that post that I think that Sandro is town. Hell, i even write one paragraph earlier: " If GK thinks Sandro is so townie that you includes him in your team" (it should actually say "you" instead of "GK", but whatever). What about GK's previous analysis was "contradictory?" He wanted someone he thought was town on his team - that's pretty straightfoward to me. Eh, contradiction? I never attempted to make a read on Sandroba but wrote that he was slightly town? Also, I wrote why I voted kita. Because I don't know how Sandro and Syllo play, I therefore did not trust them. Not a contradiction. You never made a read on sandroba in your filter. In your defense, you mentioned that it was "implied" that you thought he was slightly town. And I absolutely don't buy your reasoning on Sandro and Syllo, since it's doubtful you knew how Kita played either. I read his (ed: CaveJohnson's) post like 30 minutes before deadline. I saw a chance for town to get a cool ability twice instead of only once. I got overexcited, posted to open without thinking. I really really doubt you magically "forgot" all your feelings about CaveJohnson after having him "bright red" in your "notes." I also doubt that you "forgot" to mention you read on him at all between D2 and now after heavily pushing for his lynch on D2. | ||
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On November 30 2012 09:16 Promethelax wrote: I read it. It wasn't the most convincing thing ever. I wish Phag posted more and some of his d1 stuff is incriminating but I feel like I couldn't build a case that would convince me he is scum. How in the hell... Just look at his D2 actions: On November 23 2012 18:05 phagga wrote: My list with reads on everyone has one person painted in bright red: CaveJohnson. That's were my vote goes for now. However, my list is not up to date. I will try to go through several filters and update it, so I might make a more definite vote before Kita has to make his prediction. People who are also red in my list: - Goodkarma, although I REALLY have to go through his filter now. Have not done that yet. - BioSC, lurking hardcore although he was very excited pregame, as someone mentioned Other people I want to look into/know more about: - Sandroba, I read his filter yesterday. I want to hear more from him and what he says about the current accusations - Hopeless1der, I have "looks shady, check filter" note on him, but I don't know why anymore. Will clear this up. ##Vote CaveJohnson Read this and tell me it isn't a horrendously scummy post. He votes CaveJohnson for no reasoning. In fact he's never given any reasoning about his CJ read. He then proceeds to list 4 other potentially "scummy" players. Interestingly, his description of Sandroba is much milder than the others. He then affirms his vote on CJ (twice) before settling on Sandroba at the very end when it's clear Sandroba is going to get lynched. He never mentions CJ again until this: On November 29 2012 07:38 phagga wrote: CaveJohnson, I have 600 max HP, if you use me as Target A, I will be able to use this skill next night as well. Your action goes through normally, I get the same skill to use next night. If you trust me to be town, make me Target A instead of Acro. Where all of a sudden he's completely trusting of CJ's ability. Explain that 180 from a town perspective. Yet apparently you don't think he's scummy. Mmmmkay. | ||
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On November 30 2012 09:32 Promethelax wrote: I would be super excited about taking that ability if it was possible and I had an ability which copied abilities directed at me I'd want a huge awesome sauce vig shot. Though Phag is an idiot for wanting it when he had 600 hp. Well duh yeah, but that doesn't change the fact that he thought CJ was scum throughout D2, never mentioned otherwise, then unequivocally trusts his ability in a last-minute scramble for night-actions. | ||
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On November 30 2012 09:41 GreYMisT wrote: Bit late but 0 Oh snaaaaaaap. What's goin down? | ||
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On November 30 2012 09:42 iamperfection wrote: i could buy it i post thoughts and change reads all the time. Also that would be a pretty cool ability to steal if he is telling the truth. What does this even mean? I mean sure he could be excited as town, but that doesn't make him not scum. Do you honestly find it likely that he 180'd on his "bright red" read on CJ in his notes and immediately trusted a really strange-named ability? Much less an ability/item that isn't present at all in ChronoTrigger wikis, etc? | ||
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On November 30 2012 09:48 iamperfection wrote: got anyone else besides phagga hapa? I'd say Risk.nuke on the basis that his play is far too clean this game than what I'm used to. It feels like he's actively covering his tracks. As far as another read, I'm much more torn on it. Adam I considered because he pushed the idea that Phagga is town early on for reasons I don't understand. However, his play (even though lurky) seems to match up with his town mentality more than his scum mentality. Put a gun to my head and he's my next read out of everyone else. StrongandBig I considered because of his "I think Phagga is town but not enough to be on a party" case, which was just really weird. However on meta, SnB is behaving more towards his townie self. CaveJohnson Is just Drazak and is trolly. Completely null. VE//Z-Bo are just lurky and null to me. Z-Bo's recent post (dumping all his reads before getting replaced) strikes me as a town-mentality (and it helps that he agrees with me on Phagga). So I guess I'm slightly town on Z-Bo (or whoever the replacement is). VE... completely null. This is so uncharacteristic for him as either allignment. | ||
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On November 30 2012 09:55 Acrofales wrote: @Hapa: I found your case on Phagga bad. No matter how long you spent on it. Yes, I have my reservations about Phagga, but none of the stuff you mention. What part of this isn't scummy? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382922¤tpage=254#5075 Or this? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382922¤tpage=253#5045 Please rationalize his stance on CJ from a town perspective. Good luck with that. Add that to the fact that I also have my reservations about you, and we are really getting somewhere. I read you as marginally green on D2, but all the reasons I was extremely suspicious of you at the end of D1 are coming crashing back with a vengeance. Also, you are claiming "I took damage and didn't get healed". Clarity is claiming "you either took no damage, or got healed". One of you is lying, or you got targeted by a bus driver/something else dodgy. Your trying to yell over it that we should not look at you, but at Phagga is making all the alarm bells in my head go off at the same time. I am looking at you. Town should probably also be looking at you. I find you a very unlikely target for a bus, I think Clarity is not lying. That leaves you lying. Convince me you were not. Well the shitty thing is that there's no way for me to prove my stance here short of screenshotting my PMs. I told you exactly what happened on my end, and as far as I'm concerned that is that. | ||
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On November 30 2012 10:53 Acrofales wrote: I was talking about your original case. There was 0 mention of his shoddy vote on Drazerk except in passing. That was the case that took you "so long to make" and everybody was ignoring. I had a little mark on Phagga for doing noting D2 except placing a throwaway vote on Drazerk. Looking back, that vote looks even worse in retrospect, so bringing that up is good. However, your first case was just plain terrible. There was very little that requires a scum perspective to explain his D1. In fact, I had him pegged as a slight town read after D1. The "bussing" of Sandroba also is a null read. He was the umpteenth person to sheep Syllo for no-to-very-little reasoning. I have explained what I think of Sandroba votes for no-to-little-reasoning in both my discussion of risk.nuke and my discussion of GK. I feel no need to do so again. I do feel that CJ was complete and utter lynch bait D2 (as Drazerk often is) and scum could easily jump on him (assuming he's not scum himself, which is always a possibility until the endgame post is made or he dies and flips). It's like any other "easy" mislynch that scum like to push, like Kush, Grush, BM, Bluelightz or Risen (yes, I went there). Therefore a Drazerk vote with no reasoning whatsoever is pretty bad. Of course, town also vote for the easy lynchbait, which is why they are so easy for scum: they automatically draw town votes with their play. + Show Spoiler [Drazerk history] + The main difference between Drazerk and the rest of that list is that Drazerk actually doesn't get mislynched (or lynched at all for that matter). He has some magic quality that makes him look terrible and then slip off everybody's scumometer. Well it's good that you atleast agree with me. I thought I communicated his stance on CJ pretty well in my original case, but w/e. But I do think my original case plays to this idea that Phagga is sitting back and blending in. | ||
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Syllo and Acro are pushing this idea that I'm scum by process of elimination - that I'm the "answer" to the scum strategy. I agree with the strategy, but you're dead wrong about my alignment. Instead, y'all need to take a look at Phagga. In my mind, he's done absolutely nothing to prove himself as town, yet several players have been inexplicably pushing him as a town read. For example, both Adam and SnB have came out of nowhere to push him as a townie - this doesn't seem strange to you at all? Now I'm not sure exactly what I can say to defend myself, because all this stuff is speculation garbage that I can't do anything about. In fact I'm kinda disturbed that Syllo, of all people, is more content to rely on setup speculation to scumhunt whilst completely ignoring some huge red flags in Phagga's play. Regarding Phagga's Responses I'm not satisfied with them. He didn't sufficiently address why he 180'd on CaveJohnson. He's saying that he marked him as null somewhere between D2 and now without ever mentioning it in the thread. And even if he marked him as null, that doesn't explain why he had no distrust whatsoever for CJ's ability-claim. And to soapbox on scumhunting a bit, I feel that a lot of scum in non-newbie games can be found by looking for players floating under the radar. I've found a lot of success in recent games looking for players who've given me no reason to think they're town. These "null" players are often scum. Phagga fits this very well, and I'm shocked at how he's being ignored by virtually everyone in the thread. | ||
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Regarding that whole "GoodKarma Contradiction" thing on the D1 party elections, I have no idea where the hell you're going with it, or how him putting one of his town reads on his party is scummy. You keep saying that people had no reason to vote for GK over Sandroba, but how is that a contradiction on his part? That's just your opinion. | ||
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On December 01 2012 06:47 Clarity_nl wrote: His anger makes much more sense if he is scum who "got caught" by mechanics, that might be why it felt genuine. Yes. Being scum is the only possible way I could be angry about this. I'm not just a really fucking frustrated townie. That's inconceivable. | ||
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On December 01 2012 07:41 Acrofales wrote: Did you ask Greymist if there was an error in your PM? Nope. I'll try, but I doubt it will go anywhere. | ||
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On December 01 2012 07:44 iamperfection wrote: hapa your one of the few players we have no idea about your role is there a reason? I don't feel that it's necessary for me to claim. I thought about it (given all this suspicion on me), but ultimately I feel that it's a) not necessary unless I'm in danger of getting lynched and b) it's information that would only help scum at this point On December 01 2012 07:44 phagga wrote: *sigh* Why the hell are people not reading my posts? It stands right there that contradiction was the wrong word, and it explains how I felt about it, and why, and it even shows that I am not the only one that thought this way. Just go back an read it. I read it, and I don't get it. It reads as a really stupid suspicion on GK for including one of his town reads in his candidacy. | ||
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On December 01 2012 07:45 Clarity_nl wrote: Because that is exactly what I said, and you understood me 100% correctly. Well I apologize for being reactive, but it is what it is. | ||
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On December 01 2012 07:50 iamperfection wrote: so it would shed no light on what has been happening at all and it doesn't explain the heal that i received on d2 correct? No my abilities wouldn't explain anything about the lack of heals. | ||
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Even if we drop the "changing stance on CJ" thing, fact is, he still voted CJ on no rationale whatsoever. He suspected CJ throughout D2 and never made any attempts to analyze his behavior. Hell his filter is devoid of actual scumhunting. Any "cases" that he builds are full of fluff and nonsensical analysis. | ||
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On December 01 2012 08:02 strongandbig wrote: he voted drazerk because he was playing like drazerk then he unvoted him when we found out he is drazerk totally illogical fixed. | ||
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Also, there apparently was some host error regarding my Cycle 3 PM. I received a PM stating I took 50 damage, as opposed to a PM stating that I took no damage and got healed. Hopefully I can get one of the hosts to confirm this. But it's all a bit shellshocking considering I've been arguing about this damn thing for daaaaaaaaaays. Bossfight Speculation From what I remember from the game, "Flea" has extremely high magic resistance. Therefore, it's probably best to attack with some sort of "physical" form of damage. Slash has no resistances that I know of, but the sword behind him on the wall is relevant in the bossfight in-game. After you do enough damage to him, he picks it up and starts doing more damage with his attacks. I'm not sure what this means for the event though. | ||
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On December 01 2012 09:25 Hapahauli wrote: I was roleblocked last night. Does any townie want to claim it, or was it a scum RB? Also, there apparently was some host error regarding my Cycle 3 PM. I received a PM stating I took 50 damage, as opposed to a PM stating that I took no damage and got healed. Hopefully I can get one of the hosts to confirm this. But it's all a bit shellshocking considering I've been arguing about this damn thing for daaaaaaaaaays. So no I can't get this confirmed apparently since it's an outside-the-game factor. However, I hope atleast that the 100 damage I received from Toad helps corroborate my story, given that it fits with the ability | ||
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On December 01 2012 09:27 goodkarma wrote: Slash: Based off a boss guide on gamefaqs, slash has two phases: unarmed and armed (with his sword). You loot his sword after beating him... With his sword he has stupidly high physical defense, so charging him would be terrible. So that leaves two options: 1) Grab the sword 2) use a tech attack I'm not sure of what the success rate would be for just grabbing his sword (you can't do this in the game), but using a tech attack would be far better than just running at him (and presumably using physical attacks). Therefore, I would propose using a tech attack. Better to directly try to kill the boss. You can grab his sword after... As for Flea: Here, apparently magic attacks aren't so hot... Since our Frog doesn't have the powered-up Masamune, I'm unsure what kind of damage he could muster. And as for Robo, he isn't really the strongest physical damage character... Even without the Masamune, I would think attacking with Frog would be best here. Link to gamefaqs: http://www.gamefaqs.com/snes/563538-chrono-trigger/faqs/8268 type "in boss: (insert boss name here)" to quickly find the boss fight description. Slash: The Tech Attack seems intuitively a less-risky option. I'm inclined to go for the pure damage here. Flea: We also should consider that her first form is "fake," and killing that form mana-drains whoever hit her last. What this means... I have no idea. Even so, I still like the idea of Toad giving her a whack. | ||
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On December 01 2012 09:37 Keirathi wrote: What the hell. That's literally bullshit if you were sent the wrong PM that is 100% cause for a lynch but the host won't admit it to the thread. Without host confirmation, I would still want to lynch you because what other option do you have besides lying? Did Hapa receive the wrong PM cycle 3? I'm really angry about it, and any peer pressure dedicated towards supporting my cause is appreciated. However, I do see the hosts' point - a host confirmation would confirm that I'm telling the truth about my night actions. While I don't see how it would be "gamebreaking" or even alignment-indicative for that matter, it's still nonetheless gives me an advantage over other players (confirming my night results). | ||
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##Slash “C” ##Flea “C" I'm pretty comfortable with these, and I feel we should take care of this as quickly as possible so we can get back to scumhunting. | ||
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On December 01 2012 09:57 Keirathi wrote: Why is everyone content to spend the last bit of MP on a tech attack vs Slash? What if we need that MP for the second part of the day (since the first part apparently only lasts 24 hours)? I think this is fair. What other option would you propose though? The "grab the sword" thing screams "IT'S A TRAP" to me. Perhaps plain charging in is the best option? Slash's first form (in the game anyway) isn't particularly threatening. On December 01 2012 09:53 Clarity_nl wrote: ... The situation with your cycle pms is regrettable hapa. I don't think there's much more to say about that. I guess it would be an easier pill to swallow had you asked the hosts to confirm your cycle 3 pm much much earlier. I don't think the issue needs any more discussion though. ... Yah, host-error really hadn't crossed my mind until someone mentioned that I should PM GreYMisT just in case. And well... that's that. As far as whether you can trust me on this or not, that's unfortunately up to you guys and not me. I'd like to think that y'all are reasonable people and can see where I'm coming from. | ||
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On December 01 2012 10:06 iamperfection wrote: why is grabing the sword a bad idea for slash it sounds like he gets better with it? Can you try that in the actual game? No you can't do it in-game. You enter the boss-room, fight him for a bit, and then he grabs the sword mid-way through the fight when you do enough damage to him. You do gain the sword after the fight though. I'm just generally hesitant of actions that seem too good to be true really. | ||
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##Flea: C I talked myself into changing my vote for Slash. Charging in seems like a reasonable option considering a possible transformation here, as well as concerns about saving MP. Crude, but it seems like it would be effective. | ||
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On December 01 2012 19:31 syllogism wrote: Also I don't believe hapa's claim about a host error. They have been reading the thread and there is very little doubt that they have known about the issue for quite a while. It wouldn't have taken this long to notice the problem. Greymist even answered a question regarding how damage and healing is displayed in PMs when we were discussing hapa's missing PM. If you are mafia, which I think is likely, I think it's pretty cowardly to attempt to hide behind a host error. You could have asked him about how healing mechanic works, but did not. Furthermore, I think any major, game affecting host errors should be acknowledged in some manner. Syllo. You are a piece of shit. I believe in playing to win, and I make no secret of that, but I would never lie about something like host error. Lying about host PM's would be even more of a dick move than what you're doing now, and I will never stoop to your level. But to sit there and call me a fucking coward is beyond what I can take. Me a coward? Your entire fucking case against me boils down to a stupid PM and "lol someone like hapa has to be scum 'cause idunno." THAT's being a fucking coward, parading around a worthless case and hiding behind worthless reads and being unwilling to do any analysis whatsoever. I will have some very select words for you post-game. | ||
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Go fuck yourself. | ||
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~2:35 in this video = path in the actual game: + Show Spoiler + B seems to match up the best with the pattern (there are differences, but overall it's similar), therefore my vote's on B. Magus: His special attack in game hurts like a bitch. I'm all for taking the risk-averse option here and making sure no one in our party dies. Option A is my vote. | ||
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Phagga hasn't done anything to absolve him in my mind, therefore: ##Vote Phagga | ||
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On December 03 2012 09:37 Hopeless1der wrote: Damage portion claim. Also, I'm indefinitely VT, either through too many actions or not enough HP. (My flavor is drinking, I'm too hungover/my keg is empty) Well if my town reads are going to start shooting me, I may as well claim: I'm Lucca. My abilities aren't particularly powerful, but I don't see the need to reveal them. | ||
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On December 03 2012 09:49 iamperfection wrote: what time period do you want to go to hapa? I really don't care tbh. I'm fond of the "end of time" personally, but that has nothing to do with logic and everything to do with aesthetics. | ||
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On December 03 2012 09:47 CaveJohnson wrote: Well we all know at some level one of the main party members are going to be missing for safe claim purposes... No one really knows that, unless there's something you'd like to enlighten us about your "claim?" | ||
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On December 03 2012 09:54 iamperfection wrote: i actually agree with cave i could see grey easily say something like hey lucca not in the game if you want to sue as fake claim but that doesn't mean hapa. Did you crumb your name at all hapa? i did by the way in a very clever way No I didn't. Why does that matter? | ||
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So bread-crumbing seems irrelevant here, given that it would only prove that I had a fake-claim and not a real one. However do you really think a heavily-themed CT game would not have one of the main fucking characters in the game as a town role? | ||
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On December 03 2012 10:03 iamperfection wrote: theres a lot of "main" characters from what i can tell. Lucca's a main-main character. | ||
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On December 03 2012 10:08 Acrofales wrote: Well, I asked for a fake claim on D2 and got one. It wasn't automatically supplied. Also, if you breadcrumb your role D1 then it's usually okayish evidence. You usually only ask for a fakeclaim when you feel the necessity to claim (or you can see it coming) and you have some idea what you want to claim as. Oh was it not? Well that sucks then. I never breadcrumb my roles as blues in any game, as I generally dont' plan on getting shot as night as town for host-PM errors. | ||
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On December 03 2012 10:15 Keirathi wrote: I'm inclined to believe that Hapa is telling the truth about the host PMs because I trust that Hapa is an honorable player. If he's the kind of person that would lie about something like that to win a game, then fuck that and I'll never play with him again. I don't necessarily think that he's town again (it's hard to put aside the bias I already have), but the missing heal thing doesn't condemn him to me. I'll have another look through his filter again later, though. <3 While you're there, please keep in mind some of my actions this game and see if they make sense from a scum perspective: 1) I was the first player to aggressively contest Toad's candidacy for party leader. 2) I was amongst the first to vote Toad on the D2 lynch (the 2nd player I think) and pushed for his lynch. Does it make sense for mafia to turn down an easy bussing opportunity (Sandro) in order to put heavy suspicion on another scumteam member? 3) Toad claimed to shoot me for 100 damage (BEFORE he gave up on the game and BEFORE Acro's check). If I'm lying about the 100 damage, who else could Toad have plausibly targeted? | ||
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On December 03 2012 10:29 Promethelax wrote: Keir: you and I agree on Hapa I see. I still think that the hos error makes him look scummy but I do not belive that he is lying about it and, like you, would probably choose to not play with him again if he is. Hapa: in an hp game shooting someone for a little is not a bad way of distancing scum from scu. I don't se that as a town tell and I see you not seeing that as slightly scummy. I'm having trouble reading you here because of the contradiction in my gut read on you and my reading read. (scum / null, respectively). Clarity: the night you claimed 125 damage after my sheild was on you you took 325 but my shield blocked 200. Roleblocks please claim. Ok ignore the Toad shooting - why would I put such heavy suspicion on Toad and visibly want to lynch him on D2, when Sandroba was an easy bussing option? You're saying that myself (as hypothetical scum), would have turned down an easy lynch in favor of putting suspicion on ANOTHER of my scumbuddies? That makes no sense from a scum-perspective. | ||
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On December 03 2012 10:34 Promethelax wrote: in a normal mafia game that makes no sense. In this one I'm not so sure, getting major distance from each other and leading/getting into parties seems like the way for mafia to win. Boy do you have your conspiracy-theory thinking cap on. | ||
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The "meta read" from what I've gathered seems to be this: I'm active as scum and town, but I'm less active here. Therefore people are confuzzled. On the one hand, I understand that, but on the other hand, players seem to be going to lengths to stretch their imaginations to make sense of my actions from a scum perspective. Like Promethelax's post regarding my early game pushing of Toad: On December 03 2012 10:34 Promethelax wrote: in a normal mafia game that makes no sense. In this one I'm not so sure, getting major distance from each other and leading/getting into parties seems like the way for mafia to win. Like how many freggin assumptions are in this post? 1) This mechanics in this game are sufficiently different enough for "scum-hapa" to completely defy sane mafia strategy as defined in normal games. 2) That missions are paramount to the success of scum. Perhaps they are, but we have no information to the fact yet. In fact, Toad's flipped ability (summoning lavos early by gaining points from mission failures) could be the only scum benefit from missions for all we know. I could go on, but all of this is just ridiculous. /rant | ||
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On December 03 2012 11:20 Promethelax wrote: Haps, the mechanics in this game are different than in a normal game. We win by defeating lavos, not by lynching all scum. Therefore it does not hurt scum the same way to lose members. I think (though obviously am not sure) that scum could gain a great benefit by busing their teammates super hard early game to get on the party. The fact that you refuse to acknowledge this difference from a regular game is worrying to me, you are a smart guy and the fact that you are not being paranoid about this game doesn't sit well with me. Oh please. You act like lynching scum isn't a major objective of the game. If you think a double-bus is a viable strategy as scum on day freggin two... I dont' care if it's a heavily themed game - I'm at a loss for words. | ||
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On December 03 2012 11:35 Promethelax wrote: double bus when we didn't have another lynch for three cycles and you get to make these arguments...makes sense to me. Sure I'm paranoid because of how I think scum should be played and I usually suspect better players of being scum just by virtue of being better players. Look, you and Imp and I are shitting up the thread and it is time to stop it. If we are all town (imp is in my town column and you could be town) we need to step it up and instead of chasing each others' tails get back to the business at hand. Hapa, why is Phag the most scummy player in this game? I've outlined it. He's blending in. He's doing incredibly non-controversial things and hasn't been scumhunting. Day 1: He does nothing, shows some weak reasoning for supporting kita, then sheeps the vote on Syllo at the very end of the day. Day 2: Same pattern. He throws suspicion on CaveJohnson (whom he never made a case on), builds a nonsensical case on GoodKarma, then sheeps the vote on Sandroba at the very end of the day. His later days have been much the same - he's done barely any scumhunting, and whatever "scumhunting" he does is really weakly reasoned, nonsensical, and fluffy. What in his filter makes you think he's town? | ||
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On December 03 2012 11:35 Promethelax wrote: double bus when we didn't have another lynch for three cycles and you get to make these arguments...makes sense to me. Sure I'm paranoid because of how I think scum should be played and I usually suspect better players of being scum just by virtue of being better players. Look, you and Imp and I are shitting up the thread and it is time to stop it. If we are all town (imp is in my town column and you could be town) we need to step it up and instead of chasing each others' tails get back to the business at hand. Hapa, why is Phag the most scummy player in this game? I'M FUCKING SHITTING UP THE THREAD?!?!?! I'm trying to defend myself against retarded suspicions against me. I'm practically banging my head against a wall trying to rationalize how the hell you think my actions on D2 can even be rationalized from a scum perspective. Hell you just made another nonsensical assumption - that somehow I would have known that we wouldn't have a lynch for 3 cycles. Give me a break. | ||
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On December 03 2012 11:46 Promethelax wrote: thank you for proving my point. We, as a whole, need to stop this. Yes, you are shitting up the thread. Now stop it. VE=scum. Why the fuck should I stop? I'm showing you things in my filter that should strongly show that I'm town, but you're dismissing them on insane assumptions and conspiracy theories. I'm not going to stop unless you stop being retarded. | ||
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On December 03 2012 11:50 Promethelax wrote: Because VE has done something no townie VE would do. He has waited for others to make cases and made his own cases to sheep those. He also listens to the cases of the people he thinks are scum. (He had Hapa as scum but Hapa made a case on me so I was scum. I made a case on GK so VE made a case on GK). VE=Scum. Well the problem is that "sheeping" can be attributed to other things here. Being less active or even just catching up with the game can lead to what you're describing. I'm kinda interested to see how he replies, but overall I'm hesitant to draw conclusions from what seems like really really uncharacteristic behavior from him as either alignment. | ||
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On December 03 2012 12:01 Promethelax wrote: No, no no. You don't get it. A town VE would be direct and say lolol no idea whats going on dude over here seems scummy. It is the way he asks to be forgiven for not reading the thread and only makes easy cases on players who already have cases on them which says scum. So a personality difference then? Yeah I can see that. I'll look through his filter a bit. | ||
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On December 03 2012 12:12 Keirathi wrote: VE just flipped scum in Paranoia and didn't do any of those things, so meh. Yeah I'm with Kei on this one. His personality is different from both his town and scum metas. If this weren't VE, I'd find his behavior really scummy. However, it's VE, and this is so different from anything I've seen from him. | ||
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On December 03 2012 12:33 Promethelax wrote: Kita: please tell us VE's actions. Hapa, Kei, I'll bow to you both on this one as having a better understanding of VE than I; however I still find him scummy and I'l unvote him if/when he provides something. Austin: I don't really like how you popped in to defend VE and vanished again. Nothing to add? I've never played a game with VE (other than Liquid City, in which we never talked to each other), but from what I've /obs'd in his games, his typical scum-games are really wild. Mad Men mafia is a pretty good example. | ||
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On December 03 2012 15:34 syllogism wrote: And yes, one (or more) of the main characters is almost certainly mafia unless you think the game can be won on day 1 with a mass claim. Hapa should claim all his abilities and actions tomorrow. I don't see what good it does, but it doesn't do much harm either I suppose: 1) Flame Resistant Coating - I prevent all fire damage to a target for two cycles (the cycle used and then the next one) 2) Flamethrower - I do 100 damage to my target, followed by 75 damage to his/her target, and 50 damage to the target's target. Night 1 - Used Flame Resistant Coating on myself Night 2 - Used Fame Resistant Coating on Marvellosity Night 3 - Flamethrower on Toadsstern Night 4 - Flamethrower on Toadsstern Night 5 - Flame Resistant Coating on nl_clarity, but roleblocked Night 6 - Flame Resistant Coating on nl_clarity, but roleblocked Notable on Night 3, is that the only person who claimed to take exactly 75 damage was Hopeless. Toad could have very well targeted someone else (perhaps someone who took a bundle of damage). Night 4, a bunch of people took 75, so no help there. Night 5 is relevant in particular, because Syllo, you mentioned that you have some sort of RB+Tracker role. However, I did attempt to protect clarity, so I'm not sure what happened there. Perhaps I was roleblocked by another player, but that's what I attempted every night. On December 03 2012 15:09 syllogism wrote: Hey guys S&B attempted to visit Djodref This is pretty lynchable. ##Vote StrongandBig | ||
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On December 03 2012 15:52 syllogism wrote: Flamethrower is incredibly anti-town even with the potential to track actions. Also you know toad flipped a role that had a night action to inflict 100 damage, so shouldn't you have been looking for players who took 175 damage and not 75?! Well yes that does make more sense lol. For some reason I didn't account for Toad's ability in my notes. Go figure. But yeah Flamethrower is pretty neutered damage ability. That's why I've been pretty hesitant about using it. | ||
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On December 03 2012 16:50 syllogism wrote: Hapa I can symphatize if you really took 50 damage, thanks to your flamethrower, on the night that clarity healed you, but your damage occured after all the other actions, so you weren't healed. I can see how you could consider that a mod error even though it may not be. Going to wait until S&B flips until attempting to figure out whether what Prom just said makes any sense I talked to GreYMisT and he explicitly said I received the wrong PM. He said I took no damage on that night, and should have received a message stating that I was healed. It's straight-up mod-error, and not my perceptions of what transpired over the night PM's. Anywho, I'm probably going to punch a hole through my wall if I have to talk about N3 role PM's any more. G'gnite. | ||
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On December 03 2012 23:10 Promethelax wrote: Actually. Okay. So I am pretty mad about hosts not PM'ing me for half the cycle but i think that proves my earlier point, they saw me blundering around the thread saying fucking stupid things because I didn't know that my seed was activated and they sent me a pm. They didn't do that for Hapa for multiple cycles because they assumed he was lying for a reason. Hapa=scum, VE=scum, SnB=scum. GK might just be bad. He is downgraded on my list of scum reads. Making insane assumptions when it's convenient for you isn't scumhunting. It's called having confirmation bias. So basically you're calling me scum based on host WIFOM. That sounds legit. I'd still like to point out that there still isn't an actual case on me beyond this crap. Apparently no one can find anything in my filter that makes me scum. Conclusion? I'm somehow scum 'cause uhh..... HOST WIFOM. Excuse me while I hit my head with a brick. | ||
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I don't think syllo is lying, but as stated previously, I did attempt to protect nl_clarity. The only way I can think of how this works is if I was roleblocked by another player. On December 04 2012 00:08 syllogism wrote: Absolutely, I didn't mean to criticize your choices so far. 1However, you should read Hapa's claim again to see if it makes sense, even if you don't find a problem with the rest of his play. He claims his ability does 100 damage to the person he targets and then 75 to the target of his target and finally 50 to the next in the chain. He claims he targeted Toad twice with this amazingly towny ability, even knowing that Toad has a damaging ability. Essentially he says he inflicted 100 damage on someone he thinks mafia (Toad) while at the same time not caring about the fact the rest of his damage would likely hit town (125 overall). 2He also never attempted to figure out who Toad had been targeting with his 100 damage draining ability, as evidenced by the fact that today he was still under the impression that Toad's target would have taken 75 damage (instead of 175, since Toad's own ability does 100 damage). 1) I didn't know Toad had a damaging ability. I weighed the risks and rewards of getting rid of toad early (and thus allowing more discussion on scumhunting - did you not see ALL my rantings on the subject earlier in the game?) vs. collateral damage. I firmly believe I acted in the best interests of the town in shooting toad. I really dont' care if you disagree. 2) I did attempt to figure it out. All this proves is that I had a brainfart. | ||
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On December 04 2012 00:37 syllogism wrote: So hapa can you shoot VE this cycle Can do | ||
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On December 04 2012 00:23 syllogism wrote: Well he would have needed a completely different claim to explain why he stayed home. I can't explain why other than that he made a mistake or thought that claiming this would be more believable. Attempting to explain why mafia make mistakes is pointless. If S&B is mafia, he could have made a much more believable claim but did not. He could have visited phaga as instructed, but did not. Well it's clearly not a "mistake" since I directly acknowledged your RB+Track of me on Night 5 in the post I claimed my abilities in. And I really don't understand how you can interpret this as "scummy" when I have so many easy options available to me to corroborate my claim. For example, I could simply claim that I missed sending in my actions that night. Instead, I acknowledged your check and contested it. Why the hell would I do that as scum vs. an almost-confirmed town track? It's cause I'm telling the truth. On December 04 2012 00:27 Hopeless1der wrote: I can confirmation bias those points into being scummy with little effort. That doesn't prove anything. In fact, its a point against Hapa in my opinion to display those points as though scum would never do them. That said, while I have my reservations about him, I have no interest in pursuing his lynch until later this game, if at all. SnB gets my vote for now unless someone can account for why he may have targeted djodref against his will. Anything short of a redirect claim means he gets the lynch. I'm going to get around to that case on Z-Boson I promised like 4 cycles ago tonight. ##Lynch: StrongandBig ##Epoch: End of Time I haven't thought much about where I want to go yet. At least Spekkio's already dead so there shouldn't be any more scum getting potential era bonuses by going there. So apparently defending myself is a point against me in Hopeless's mind. This is wonderful. Fact is, I brought up those points because there are no points for me to respond against. There's no case against me, and I have to defend myself against a mix of host-wifom and people idly saying I'm suspicious. | ||
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On December 04 2012 02:18 syllogism wrote: No, I don't trust you at all, but I received a correction Speaking of which, can you give me a sane reason you find me suspicious? Because this is like day ten-billion of a bunch of people thinking I'm scum without a case on me to speak of. | ||
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On December 04 2012 02:26 syllogism wrote: Why did you say you didn't know Toad had a damaging ability when he claimed shooting you? Why does a town aligned player have a role that even when used on mafia, it is is likely to do more damage on town aligned players than on mafia? If the answer is that it can be used to "confirm" night actions, why did you not attempt to use it like that? Anyway, I'm not trying to convince you of anything. We'll see how things have developed once your alignment becomes more relevant. Oh huh, the Toad thing is funny. That actually never crossed my mind. For most of D3, I was running on the hypothesis that Toad had some sort of framer ability and used it on Hopeless. Needless to say that's wrong, and I never really drew the connection. As for my "anti-town" ability - why don't you PM GreYMisT and ask him why he designed my ability the way he did? My guess is that the "collateral damage" is a balancing effect. Having straight-up 100 damage shots would be pretty overpowered from the town roles I've seen flipped so far. As as using it to "confirm" night actions - I've been hesitant to use the ability precisely because of the collateral damage. My usage of it was limited to hitting confirmed scum to try and burst them down, and see if I could draw any connections. And I did try to draw connections, but had a brainfart in accounting for Toad's 100 damage ability. | ||
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On December 04 2012 02:35 syllogism wrote: No, straight up 100 damage shots aren't overpowered at all. Oh here is a question. Do you get some kind of bonus in your native era? Is this era 1000 AD? My role mentions that I'm from 1000 AD, but doesn't mention any bonus. | ||
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On December 04 2012 02:48 syllogism wrote: Hapa: but you thought hopeless was mafia in cycle 3 and we had already seen a framer role flip (sandroba) Me and my confirmation bias thought Toad was framing his scumbuddy to check out as green. Rational in retrospect? No. But it's what I was thinking at the time. As for Sandroba flipping, so what? That says nothing about the abilities of other players. | ||
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On December 04 2012 04:01 iamperfection wrote: s&b does have a point about a possible bus driver type role. I mean it's possible, but too many things are adding up against SnB. He has a really strange role-claim, and he hasn't done anything to establish himself as townie. I also found his "Phagga is town but not town enough for me to include him in a party" case as pretty sketchy. | ||
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On December 04 2012 04:26 strongandbig wrote: do those ever actually help? i can if you really think it would help, but usually all those things do is make the person posting them look like a scum desperate to put together something that looks like a contribution Well if you are town, any effort/analysis to prove that would help. | ||
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On December 04 2012 07:16 GreYMisT wrote: Please Don't. Ask me in thread how something functions and I will tell you to the best of my ability. But please don't dig up things im saying in other threads as a way to "solve" this game. This is your final warning. Do action resolutions work as-described by the post that Acro quoted? | ||
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On December 04 2012 08:57 CaveJohnson wrote: There are no events at the end of time. Why risk any damage on players being greedy at the end game leading to failed events. We need to play it safe and play sensibly at that is why EoT is obviously the best choice. How do we know that? I mean I want to go to EoT for the hell of it, but I don't know how you would come to the conclusion that the EoT is some magical safe-zone. | ||
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I'm parsing through your Z-Boson case and I don't agree with it at all. Your 3rd section (about his voting actions on D2) rather strongly indicates that he's town to me. So Z-Boson has put heavy pressure on StrongandBig (who we're all expecting to flip scum) in the very early game. Then hypothetical scum-ZBo turns down a really easy bussing opportunity (Sandro) to... vote ANOTHER of his teammates? I'm not buying it. He's a bit all-over the place, but it's not scummy at all. He definitely could be scum but I think his early-game actions speak against it. Furthermore, calling damage-night actions on a replacement is a pretty bad idea. Especially austin, who IMO is pretty easy to read. | ||
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On December 04 2012 15:05 Keirathi wrote: Off-topic and not entirely relevant, but why do you think austin is easy to read? His only scum game was Aperture 2, and I thought you didn't follow that game? I read through it somewhere towards the end of GSL III Mini. Austin brought it up to me while I was trying to make a meta read on him. Austin has a very peculiar way of thinking as town that is often on early display in his games. His scum-game (Aperture 2), while reasonably active, also shows a pretty different analysis-mentality. | ||
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On December 04 2012 15:23 Keirathi wrote: I recently said I didn't think you were scum based on the mod PM thing, which pushed you back to null. Your point about voting Toad day 2 rather than Sandro has some townie merit, but you have some things that keep you kind of in the neutral zone for me (the Prom case, trying to force yourself into the party leader after we had successful parties...I think there was something else, but honestly its too late to go look back through your whole filter). Well that's better to hear I suppose. May as well address the concerns since you mentioned them: Prom Case: At the time I thought his pushing of me was scummy. Probably a more than bit of blind rage/OMGUS on my part, but that's part of the way I scumhunt. A couple of times a game, I'll OMGUS/Tunnel someone until I think they're town or scum. This game, I've garnered town reads on Hopeless, Promethelax, and GK (not much of a tunnel, but suspicion nonetheless on GK) from this. We'll see where Phagga goes. Speaking of Phagga, I'm currently having some reservations that push me closer back to null on him. While I still find his stuff on CJ and his early-game really scummy, he's had several opportunities to discredit me and push suspicion on me with other players taking the lead, and has taken no part in it. Something to sleep over I suppose. My "Party Leader" Stuff: Several people at that point in the game had a "townie/slight-townie read" on me, so I was hoping to get on the party, succeed, and live the stress-free confirmed-townie life that you and others are living right now. Night PM shenanigans got in the way of that however, so I'm stuck here running in circles. | ||
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On December 05 2012 07:53 CaveJohnson wrote: safer option than 600AD Huge bonuses for a few of the main cast Lots of people already from 1000AD can get bonuses Well I'm part of the main cast, and nowhere does it suggest that I get a bonus in my PM. You seem to be speculating a lot about how the hosts designed things, and I really hate playing that game. | ||
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Also, I was healed and my damage shot went through to VE (though meaninglessly I suppose) | ||
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This lynch comes down to Phagga or one of the trolls to me. Phagga's recent posting makes me think he's town (speculating that SnB could flip third party, wanting to lynch GK over SnB, etc). I have no idea what to make of Drazerk, and I read risk as pretty scummy. | ||
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On December 05 2012 09:20 Promethelax wrote: I'm not a big fan of Risk's play. I'd love a transcript of the qt though to judge for myself. I don't get why Syllo won't share it with us. My only reservation with Risk is that he's often a very easy mislych in games that he's town. However in this game, his play just feels waaaay to clean from what I've seen of his game. It looks like he's really trying to be careful and blend in. But at this point it's process of elimination. I have reasons to think just about every other player (save Drazerk) is town/third-party. Risk... not so much. | ||
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On December 05 2012 09:24 kitaman27 wrote: Do you get the feeling that he is playing careful or not playing at all? Could you give examples that made you lead to this conclusion please? Well in town games I've seen him play (i.e. Liquid City), he really didn't give much of a shit about the game, and was posting seemingly "scummy" things left and right. At one point he posted something like "I'm going to wait after the Night Deadline to make a case on (playername) because I'm lazy". In this game, he's inactive per usual, but his play is remarkably... clean. He has none of those stupid comments that plague his other games. He's also feels more detatched than normal. But also his actions line up really well with what I'd expect mafia to do: Day 1) Strong early support for Sandroba. Then switches to GoodKarma (who has Sandroba on his team). Day 2) Strong early vote on Sandroba He also voted both SnB and Toad quickly and decisively. His SnB vote also reads as pretty weird to me: On December 03 2012 17:00 risk.nuke wrote: ##Vote strongandbig Hapas first ability sound like bogus. The second sound like scum. This kind of post is what I feel scum would make. He votes SnB without a word of the previous pages of conversation, then calls me scum. Being so willing to jump on another player in such a situation strikes me as scummy. Furthermore, both SnB and VisceraEyes have pushed suspicions on me fairly aggressively, and it lines up real neat with a mafia "strategy." | ||
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On December 05 2012 10:12 goodkarma wrote: This flip provides an abundance of information. Kita can be nearly "confirmed" as not scum by simply asking around and confirming that no one else was playing the guessing game the days he claimed to be + Show Spoiler + (I mean maybe they opted not to use their ability multiple nights so he could do this but I find that incredibly unlikely and suboptimal...) Cave claimed to take headbutt one night. I'm actually not inclined to buy into this as "confirmation" he isn't scum. Headbutt has the unique ability of hardly doing any damage at all. The other of strong's abilities can only be used when a role name is known, making strong effectively in a position of uselessness if he doesn't have a role to go off of. I could completely picture Cave fake claiming headbutt, or even actually taking 1HP headbutt damage + Show Spoiler + (on a night where scum didn't have a role name to target) If VE's afk lurk modkill is any indication, scum is disheartened and have given up on this game. Looking for the last one (assuming 5 scum setup) may be as easy as seeing who else has stopped caring. In this context, I can understand how some have decided risk is a good lynch candidate for today. However, I still have reservations. Did it occur to anyone else how absolutely crazy it would be for a mason-type role to be scum-affiliated? I have yet to see this in a game... That aside, I've already discussed how I feel about a risk lynch. I'm still against it. I will be reassessing my reads either tonight or tomorrow morning and making my case for who I feel we should lynch. Can you post the logs from the QT (especially those regarding risk). Also, Mad Men Mafia had some sort of mafia-mason from what I remember. | ||
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Haven't you found risk's behavior regarding the circle rather odd? On November 30 2012 02:07 risk.nuke wrote: I saw it as more valuable to try and create a town masoncircle. I adviced GK not to claim in the qt but he did it anyway. After that I only wanted to invite near-confirmed townies. First off, inviting near confirmed towns to a circle is really pointless. If the purpose of a mason circle is to get extra information, what information would you need from confirmed townies? Secondly... why would he invite you? What reasons does he have for believing that you were town based on your early game play? | ||
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On December 05 2012 10:26 goodkarma wrote: Another question worth asking is: If risk is really scum, why would he use his abilities to mason more townies when he could be smashing them in the face with his damaging ability? This doesn't make sense to me... Well does he have a damaging ability? We don't know that for sure. Also, the circle from what I understand is you, risk, and Syllo. Why hasn't he added anyone else to the circle since? Perhaps he's using other abilities and whatnot. | ||
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Thanks! @ Hopeless I posted my thoughts earlier. I really don't see how Z-Boson was scummy at all. Nor do I see any scumminess in austin's play. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382922¤tpage=307#6133 | ||
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59 risk7nuke 11-27-2012 10:43 AM ET (US) I invited Goodkaram because I had a townread on him. The mainreason I picked him over others were the way his posts were logical and constructed so I deemed we'd be able to have good discussion in this qt. It never really got to that due to mutual distrust and time difference. There is more to my role, I wasn't intending to claim this but I don't think it matter holding it back now. I am a conditioned vigilante. I am a fighting robot. Instead of inviting someone to my tent I can attack one player in my tent for 200 damage. Also, Syllo get your head of your arse please. Whether you like it or not you're a leader to this town now. Act like one instead of a little girl bitch. This makes no sense whatsoever. Why the hell would you invite a bunch of town-reads to a circle that completely neuters your damage ability. I'm not buying it. | ||
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On December 05 2012 10:49 Hapahauli wrote: This makes no sense whatsoever. Why the hell would you invite a bunch of town-reads to a circle that completely neuters your damage ability. I'm not buying it. To add to this, if his ability is as advertised (shoots people in his tent), it makes perfect sense from a scum perspective to invite a bunch of your town-reads and pelt them with 200 dmg shots. | ||
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On December 05 2012 10:55 austinmcc wrote: Spoilers ftw. Found this informative as I'm reading through:Magus, given that you can pick him up as a party member or not, sounds like it's something Grey could work with. Either as a traitor, 3rd party, something. And we failed the Magus event. Has anyone namechecked Drazerk and Acro? Stuff like magus being ripe for flavor in this game + us failing the event + 'hai guyz i got a bunch of magical powerz' gives me a bad feeling Eh. Speculating about the last role-name is pretty useless here. Really more interested to see you analyze Acro+Drazerk (risk too) rather than be suspicious of them based on an incomplete list of boss names. | ||
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I think that, unless I see a game where risk afks out as mafia, then his weird drop-off in activity points towards him being town for me. Don't think that a game as an SK is a great comparison. This is a pretty suspect way of thinking here. Just because risk hasn't late-game lurked as mafia doesn't mean he's incapable of doing it as mafia. Secondly, having a town read on someone based on late-game lurking just seems suspect in general. | ||
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On December 05 2012 11:57 Adam4167 wrote: Well that night post went about as good as one can ever go. This is why hope is pushing Austin Right now, my list looks (not-so-surprisingly) like Acros. After reading Hope's case on Z-boson and revisiting my own, I just cant see how that came out of a town player. Anyone that's more familiar with Z-BosoN, is his logic usually sound? Does he usually make decent sense when hes town? Is he at least easy to follow? Z-Bo is a newer but fairly solid player. Like anyone he's capable of making the occasional bad case, but his logic is usually sound. I saw nothing in his behavior that was deviant from his normal town play other than relative inactivity - though he replaced out so I don't think that's alignment indicative. | ||
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On December 05 2012 12:02 Adam4167 wrote: Yeah townies can be wrong, it happens. I was more asking has he done something like say someone is playing to their town meta and then in the next breath called a vigi shot on them? Oh, uh where was that? | ||
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On December 05 2012 12:10 Adam4167 wrote: Yeah I cant wrap my head around it, either way. We either have a town Z-boson that wants to vig someone who is playing to their town meta, or a scum Z-boson in some lopsided bus attempt, where he calls s&b town but still wants him dead. I don't think he's calling SnB town - he's just saying that SnB is showing some parts of his town meta. That's a lot less severe than you're suggesting IMO, and I lean to Z-Bo town in this case. Scum saying that one of their scum-buddies is showing town traits and then wanting him dead makes even less sense. | ||
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On December 05 2012 15:35 Adam4167 wrote: I missed this post earlier. With all the crap that was going on in the thread at the time (Toad v Keirathi), (Syllo v Sandro) ect, his number one scum read is someone 'showing parts of their town meta' and this warrants a vigi shot on them? I think that's insane. When I see someone showing parts of their town meta, I assume that person is most probably town and look somewhere else! Or you question them further to consolidate that town read. Its the logical thing to do - you've done it dozens of times in your mafia career (I assume). You do not make this person your number 1 scum suspect and want to blow their head off. Yeah but again, while it doesn't make much sense from a town perspective, it makes even less sense from a scum perspective. Like that's the most nonsensical way ever to bus a teammate. | ||
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On December 05 2012 15:31 syllogism wrote: Oh wait, I guess risk didn't actually invite VE last cycle as he promised and instead punched me. The punch just doesn't do 200 damage. That's what I'm thinking. His circle + ability makes no sense from a town perspective given how he used it. Makes plenty of sense from a scum perspective though. | ||
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On December 05 2012 15:53 syllogism wrote: However, 450 is a weird amount of damage to take. Did anyone else target me? Well given that no one else has claimed damage so far, it suggests to me that there are two mafia left (or that 1 mafia - perhaps risk - has a 450 damage shot, but I find that unlikely). | ||
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On December 05 2012 15:45 Adam4167 wrote: I find it more likely to be some kind of poorly executed bus attempt. I cannot see any way for it to be coming from a town-brain. I went back and tried to read his quote, and I'm reading his comment as far less severe than you are. The relevant line: Strong town read on marv? Really? If marv hadn't told be beforehand he wasn't gonna take this game seriously, I would have gone with scum read on marv. He spends a ton of time arguing with cave fellow for no reason at all, the guy is and has been a lost cause since he began posting. He's not nearly as active and as involved as his other games. He's not willing to run for party. I've reread his filter and there is nooooo way you can get a town read on marv that fast, with that kind of bad reasoning. Someone else had a town fast, with zero reasoning. Especially SNB, who's played with him a ton of times. SnB's filter though seems pretty much like his town filter from last game, in terms of low activity and post coutn, but I haven't played with him much. Marv, do you have any meta read on him? I think he's saying that SnB's activity and post-count line up with his town meta, and suggesting that his post-count/activity aren't alignment indicative. Then he is finding him scum for other reasons. It checks out to me as OK logic-wise. I'll admit I'm not considering Z-Bo as much as I should, namely because I'm pretty convinced that risk is scum. However given Syllo's 450 damage claim, there's probably another mafia running about, and it could very well be Z-Bo/austin. Austin's recent "I'm thinking about lynching the 3rd party" post is kinda sketchy. | ||
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On December 05 2012 16:58 syllogism wrote: It's also worth noting that none of the flipped mafia, sandroba aside, have had an ability that could in any way be interpreted as inflicting fire damage. Sandroba's fire based ability deals damage over 4 cycles, so fireproof coating would only prevent 100 damage (since it lasts for two cycles). That sure is an amazingly useless ability to have, Hapa. Yeah =( I mean for all we know the next 1 or 2 scum could have something fire-related, but sigh. I could also theoretically prevent myself from doing collateral damage or something if I get lucky =/ | ||
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... The really dodgy ones, imho are: Kita's damage to CJ that is not backed up by CJ's claim. CJ's betrayal where nobody claims he was hit by his own spell, or even claims to have targeted CJ. Hapa's flame protection. Zbo not claiming anything at all ever. The other players have at least a plausible story in combination with the mechanics they claim. I'm not sure why you call it "dodgy", since apparently I'm one of your stronger town reads. It's not like I'm fake-claiming or anything. | ||
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Interested to hear full role-claims (names included) from Drazerk and Austin | ||
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On December 06 2012 01:22 Acrofales wrote: I have not seen any fire damage. Sandroba's dot is possibly related to that but even that doesn't specify it's fire damage. It *might* be related to Lavos, but then the wording you have seems too obtuse: why would Greymist drop 1 hint to 1 person about this? In other words, your claim is just plain weird. That's why it's dodgy. I have you as town because I thought your defense was genuine the last time you got into trouble. I thought your tunneling GK was also genuine. However, both can be faked by good scum. So yes, the claim is dodgy. That doesn't automatically make you scum, it just means there's something that needs explaining. Well it's something that really can't be explained until we flip scum(s). There's apparently an unaccounted for incremental damage (burn?) ability, so that might make my ability a little less useless. On December 06 2012 01:23 Acrofales wrote: Oh, if we're trying to explain the unexplainable: what the hell was that countdown? I still think it was kita related, though I doubt we'll know the specifics until post-game. | ||
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On December 06 2012 01:26 syllogism wrote: By the way I attempted to rb+track VE on n2, so if I was, hypothetically, targeted by a flamethrower, that would explain why Kita took 50 damage since VE allegedly used his guessing game ability on kita. Really... that's quite a stretch there. | ||
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None of the flipped scum have attempted to put significant suspicion on each other in the thread (save clear bussing attempts), and for some reason you think that this pattern was completely defied in my case. | ||
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On December 05 2012 22:39 phagga wrote: I've calmed down. My temper sometimes gets the best of me when I feel attacked/manipulated, guess I went a bit overboard yesterday. Sorry for that. I'll reevaluate some of my reads. Regarding risk, I've written yesterday that from his behaviour early game, i don't think he is scum. I am however worried by his heavy lurking for the last 5 days and his unwillingness to participate. I will look into this as well. For the time being: ##Vote: Goodkarma I realize you're angry at GK for his suspicion on you, but it's pretty clear that he's not scum at this point. Even if you don't like his filter, read through the filters of the flipped scum (SnB and VisceraEyes) and look at how much suspicion they put on GK. I find it very hard to imagine that they'd aggressively push a teammate in a situation where they took significant early-game losses. | ||
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On December 06 2012 01:47 Hapahauli wrote: Syllo, can we take care of this "you being suspicious of me" thing right now? Because we have a situation where the last two flipped scum (SnB + VE) have both attempted to put heavy suspicion on me in their filters. Combined with the points I've made earlier (my actions regarding Toad in particular), how on earth do you not see that I'm town at this point? None of the flipped scum have attempted to put significant suspicion on each other in the thread (save clear bussing attempts), and for some reason you think that this pattern was completely defied in my case. | ||
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On December 06 2012 02:40 syllogism wrote: How did hapa take 100 damage on n2 then? I guess it's possible he took 175, but how Unflipped scum? Possible town shot as well, but no one claimed it yet. But I'll keep spamming this until you answer it: On December 06 2012 01:47 Hapahauli wrote: Syllo, can we take care of this "you being suspicious of me" thing right now? Because we have a situation where the last two flipped scum (SnB + VE) have both attempted to put heavy suspicion on me in their filters. Combined with the points I've made earlier (my actions regarding Toad in particular), how on earth do you not see that I'm town at this point? None of the flipped scum have attempted to put significant suspicion on each other in the thread (save clear bussing attempts), and for some reason you think that this pattern was completely defied in my case. | ||
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On December 06 2012 03:03 Acrofales wrote: If I say that, it is ridiculously easy to guess my rolename. Is that a bad thing? I mean if you're fearful of another player killing you, certainly you claiming third party and being so overt about it would have ended with you dead already. | ||
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On December 06 2012 03:09 Acrofales wrote: Absolutely true. The fact that I took 0 damage for a few cycles despite claiming is making me less paranoid about there being someone wanting to kill me. However, if there are more SnB-like abilities out there, I prefer they hit other people than me. Call it a survivor mentality Are you Ozzie? | ||
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On December 06 2012 03:18 Promethelax wrote: Magnus makes way more sense. His secondary would be to be included in a party or to outlast frog. Both of those make sense lore wise and have been accomplished. Well all his spells backfiring doesn't make much sense with Magus lore-wise. In addition, I doubt his second win-con is to be included in a party, since he was resistant to the idea earlier and was only included in the randomly-generated one. | ||
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On December 06 2012 01:47 Hapahauli wrote: Syllo, can we take care of this "you being suspicious of me" thing right now? Because we have a situation where the last two flipped scum (SnB + VE) have both attempted to put heavy suspicion on me in their filters. Combined with the points I've made earlier (my actions regarding Toad in particular), how on earth do you not see that I'm town at this point? None of the flipped scum have attempted to put significant suspicion on each other in the thread (save clear bussing attempts), and for some reason you think that this pattern was completely defied in my case. | ||
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On December 06 2012 03:23 Acrofales wrote: The point of my claim was so you guys could use the claimed abilities when trying to solve the game, not so you can indulge in pointless speculating about my name, which will get you nowhere as I won't confirm or deny anything. Well in my mind, clearly no one is hunting you, so I have no idea why you aren't willing to claim. Hell we're curious dammit! | ||
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On December 06 2012 06:02 syllogism wrote: I've to say it's a really stupid claim to make if he is mafia (don't blame him though, I would want this to end by this point as well), but still as a town aligned player you would absolutely love to "confirm" your actions by healing players instead of using a shield. None of his actions so far are actually confirmable and healing is strictly better than shielding. It's a cry for help, maybe we should lynch him today. Idunno. I'm pretty convinced that risk is scum, but if there's a second one lurking about, it's probably austin/Z-Bo. Austin going off on Acro is completely nonsensical at this point. | ||
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Can you give us a list of your actions/effects so far night by night? It's all pretty confusing to parse through in your filter. | ||
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Doesn't seem like there is any way that Chrono is a fake-claim either. | ||
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Hopeless Pretty sure he's not scum. His reactions towards cases against him have been really townie overall. He also seems more engaged in this game than I've ever seen him. Also, him shooting me for 222 makes him town in my eyes. Scum don't want to shoot potential mislynch targets - they want to waste lynches on them. His shot on me doesn't make too much sense strategically from a scum perspective. Adam His meta overall is pretty lurky, though he seems to be even more lurky and disinterested in his scum games. This game, he's been fairly engaged, and I tend to agree with a lot of what he's been saying. I think he's town. Phagga He hasn't done very much, but my gut just says town here for some reason. He very calmly and collectedly defended himself against my cases on him, and him speculating that SnB could flip third party seemed very odd from a scum perspective (it didn't read as fake either). I still think he's possibly scum, but I find it more likely that austin will flip red. Austinmcc/Z-Boson There are a couple of factors against him atm: 1) The shield on me N1 and the unaccounted 75 damage on myself. I'm hesitant to draw too much from this (still unflipped scum abilities after all), but it is certainly one thing to consider. Also, I'll ask the mods to confirm my damage PM from N2. 2) Austin being fixated on lynching Acro. This strikes me as pretty scummy - it reads like he's trying to push forward a 3rd party lynch rather than scumhunting. 3) Z-Bo's seemingly weak logic for reads (such as his SnB case). 4) Soft defending risk.nuke However, there are some significant points in his favor 1) It's pretty much confirmed that Austin healed Z-Boson. 2) His claim seems pretty believable flavor and power-wise. I don't think the points in his favor are enough to save him at this point. It's very plausible that scum have a healer, and the claim could well be fake. There's more against him than the other options, and I'll vote him until he shows me otherwise. ##Vote Austinmcc | ||
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What's your current stance on GK? | ||
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On December 07 2012 17:35 Oatsmaster wrote: I claim the 75 on phagga Wait wut? Since when do you have a 75 damage ability? What are all your abilities? | ||
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On December 08 2012 06:03 phagga wrote: could you please elaborate on that? i don't see anything in Toads or Sandros filter that they tried to kill GK, and your spreadsheet does not point to this either. Toad and Sandro no, but both VE and SnB tried pretty hard to kill him. Seems sufficient enough to label GK as town. | ||
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##Vote Phagga Austin convinced me | ||
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I really think we should be lynching Phagga today. Austin's case is pretty good, and my readthrough of Phagga's play in recent days is somewhat alarming. Phagga's contributions as of late are a town case on Hopeless and very questionable tunneling of GoodKarma (whom he now thinks is town). That's basically it - he's been very reluctant to give scumreads or even scumhunt for that matter. The closest thing to scumhunting in his filter in recent days is the following: On December 08 2012 19:40 phagga wrote: since I have obviously been doing a bad job of putting all my relevant thoughts into the thread, let's try this differently. I got a bunch of people where I am pretty sure that they are town or playing in towns interest so far (Acro). Here are the ones that are left over: - Goodkarma - Hopeless1der - Austinmcc - Adam - Hapa (From all listed here, he is the least probably scum) Now, the point is, if GK is not scum (which I am slowly starting to think because of his night actions and behaviour around them, as well as the convo in the tent), then who else is? Hapa probably not, on Hope I just made an update that shows that I doubt he is scum. That leaves Adam and Austin. These are therefore the guys I am concentrating on next, so you will get more what I think of them before the deadline. Phagga seems to be playing the delay game. He hasn't posted anything on Austin/Adam, and his play is yet again following a pattern of getting ready to plop down a last-minute non-controversial vote on a candidate when the lynch is almost decided. Also, his town cases conflicts with his earlier in-game stance on scumhunting/townhunting: On November 21 2012 16:54 phagga wrote: Ok, looks like I need to clarify myself. Townhunting is stupid. Do you know why? Because scum can fake it to no end, since they know who is not scum. Talking about who is townie makes it much easier for scum to blend in, which then makes it much harder for town to choose the right people for their teams. Yes, there may be multiple factions in this game. Still, if we force scum to scumhunt they are more likely to trip as if they can just give their townreads out. So, no, I disagree that this game revolves around townhunting. We find out who is townie by scumhunting, not by townhunting. Things aren't adding up. His play so far has been the definition of blending in. It's the scummiest thing in the thread atm, and Phagga should be held accountable for it. | ||
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You still don't have a concrete scumread 3 hours before the deadline, and it's quite disturbing. | ||
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To elaborate: This will be the 4th (5th?) lynch cycle where you beat around the bush and post very irrelevant content until the very end of the cycle. Then at the end of the cycle, you neatly package together a non-controversial vote on someone. If this was once or twice, I wouldn't think much of it. However this is a pattern. Day 1 (Party vote): You support kita because you "liked one of his posts" then sheep the vote on Syllo at the very end of the day. Day 2 (Lynch vote): You call CaveJohnson scum for very little rationale, make a "case" on GoodKarma, then end up sheeping the vote on Sandro at the end of the day. Day 3-5 (Bunch of non-controversial votes on party-leaders/lynching Toad, material doesn't apply to my suspicions.) Day 6 (Lynch): You spend the entire day tunneling GoodKarma. This is the only aberration from your pattern, but tunneling a candidate who had no chance in hell of getting lynched isn't being useful by any measure. On December 03 2012 17:18 phagga wrote: That post sounds like scum. you have posted almost nothing in the last 72 hours, and all you do is trying to judge a player on is claimed abilities. Hapa has posted a lot in the last few hours, why don't you comment on that? You attack risk for calling me scum. This is seemingly a strong accusation, but you are very wishy-washy on him the next day. Day 7 (Lynch): Wishy-washy on risk, you still think that GK is the scummiest candidate, build a town-case on Hopeless, then you vote risk at the very end of the day. [h] Today (Lynch): Now we're following the exact same pattern. You've voiced your opinions that GK is town and that one of Adam and Austin is scum. Yet we haven't heard anything resembling analysis on either player. We're now 2.5 hours before the deadline, and once again you're setting up for an inconsequential last-minute vote. | ||
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Over the last 3-4 cycles, the only things you have posted of substance are: a) Defending yourself against my initial case b) An aggressive tunnel of GK (that went waaaaaaay too far) That's it. The only other things that you could possibly label as "analysis" are... ...A bunch of super wishy-washy reads on Austin and risk http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382922¤tpage=302#6031 ... a town case on hopeless long after everyone thinks Hopeless is town: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382922¤tpage=333#6655 | ||
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Austin has offered us some very solid analysis and has been very open to defending to himself and replying to our accusations. Phagga... has done... what has he done? He's defended himself against austin's case (and now my case)... and that's basically it. The only thing resembling scumhunting in his filter for this cycle is this list of players: On December 08 2012 19:40 phagga wrote: since I have obviously been doing a bad job of putting all my relevant thoughts into the thread, let's try this differently. I got a bunch of people where I am pretty sure that they are town or playing in towns interest so far (Acro). Here are the ones that are left over: - Goodkarma - Hopeless1der - Austinmcc - Adam - Hapa (From all listed here, he is the least probably scum) Now, the point is, if GK is not scum (which I am slowly starting to think because of his night actions and behaviour around them, as well as the convo in the tent), then who else is? Hapa probably not, on Hope I just made an update that shows that I doubt he is scum. That leaves Adam and Austin. These are therefore the guys I am concentrating on next, so you will get more what I think of them before the deadline. Apparently he wants to call this "scum-hunting," but I don't buy it at all. No analysis, no nothing. | ||
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On December 09 2012 06:16 syllogism wrote: What is the solid analysis austin has offered us? All I can see is him talking about people who even mafia probably thought are third parties (drazerk/acro) and a lot of role speculation? I can't particularly fault him for latter, but his defense is completely different from the spirited one he gave in Paranoia mafia. His giant case on phagga http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382922¤tpage=343#6852 Also, the nature of the accusations against him this game are far different than last game. He's being forced to answer for Z-Bo's night actions, which are really impossible for him to talk about. | ||
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On December 09 2012 06:16 phagga wrote: You say I only make non-controversial votes, but when i vote GK on D6 alone you say it's not usefull to vote on a candidate who does not get lynched, so what now? You are full of confirmation bias, you don't even realise how you are contradicting yourself in your reasoning (again). Also, I've explained why my vote on Sandro was late (weekend), but you ignore it. I also explained why I switched my vote off kita (he got inactive and was not answering my question). Risk promised a case and a defense, which never came, which was why I was waiting. Again, 1 or 2 last-minute inconsequential votes = no big deal. However, we're on our 4th now, and that's a problem. As for the GK vote, I'm not contradicting myself. The GK vote wasn't "uncontroversial." There was still some suspicion on GK, and he would have been a possible (yet unlikely) lynch candidate if it wasn't for SnB getting outed through night actions. Point is that the GK stuff on that day is pretty null. You're not sticking your neck out by any means here. Lastly with risk, I thought I laid it out pretty clear. You call one of his posts very scummy, then seemingly forgot about it and took very wishy-washy opinions on risk for the next day. You even called him slightly-town at one point. | ||
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On December 09 2012 06:24 phagga wrote: You are aware that he is rehashing a lot of your points in his case, right? I think that's fair. However he's still done much more than you have so far. On December 09 2012 06:25 syllogism wrote: That doesn't read like a real case to me and it's conveniently about the only person who we can possibly lynch over him. Does he truly think think that "vote limping" on mafia is indicative of someone being mafia in this game considering mafia bussed sandroba, there was a red check on toad (and s&b basically) and risk wasn't even playing? What reasoning should he have contributed exactly? Were other, town aligned people "guilty" of this too (the answer is yes). Well I read into it differently Syllo. Also, the issue of "vote limping" isn't as simple as you make it sound. 4 times Phagga has offered irrelevancies throughout the day, only to "limp" on the vote at the last minute. It screams mafia blending-in to me. | ||
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On December 09 2012 06:50 phagga wrote: Two things: The reason why I vote austin is BECAUSE after working through hopes and Adams filter, I feel they are town. That may come late, but whatever. This practically only leaves austin as possible scum. If you don't like how I got to that conclusion, bad luck. It helped me nailing down the person I think is scum, this is why I played this way. Second, Austins case has no single new accusation in it. It has all been there. How can you come and say this is more than I have done when all he has done is rehashing points others brought up? I really don't see it. Because it's more what you've done. How can you say you've done more than him? And there's still the fact that you've offered no analysis on Austin or Adam. I don't care what you have "claimed" to do behind the scenes, because that's completely unverifiable, and I don't believe you at all. The only scumread you've ever offered analysis on the entire game is GoodKarma. That's it. | ||
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On December 09 2012 07:49 syllogism wrote: And where did that extra 75 damage on keirathi come from, since he had a 75 damage shield on him too? Who knows? Unflipped scum perhaps. There are so many hidden factors here between whatever-the-fuck Drazerk was doing, as well as possible factional scum KP. | ||
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Well I'll have to think some about the next one. I still think austin is town, which is a problem, because I think everyone else is town. | ||
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Kita still stands. So we have a problem. Pretty doubtful that scum is Austin. | ||
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Regarding lynching austin... eh. It seems like there are two separate KP's going around - perhaps 1 factional and 1 individual mafia? Still can't make heads or tails for why it was split though. | ||
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##Vote Austinmcc | ||
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As for myself, my fire-damage protection ability is worthless (Lavos apparently doesn't do fire damage, period.). However, my flamethrower ability is a straight-up 100 damage shot when targeting Lavos - no collateral damage. | ||
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On December 10 2012 13:01 goodkarma wrote: If there's one alternative scum suspect other than austin I would say it would have to be Hapa. The guy has been fairly disinterested for a long stretch here, which is neither town nor scum indicative given how tired we all are of this game... However, what's stood out most to me about his play is that the only suspect I clearly recall him pressuring was phagga. A large chunk of this game he's been subjected to the rather bad "Your night actions don't check out. Therefore, scum..." argument (bad because there was no scum motive for it). I had no problem with him defending his actions, but the zeal with which he did it did stand out to me. I mean, on a day where no one was seriously pushing to lynch him he repeatedly commented on how he wanted a case to defend against and in the process did little to no scumhunting at all... Add to that the scumshot that Hapa allegedly took at a time where he clearly was not the optimal target for scum (why not syllo or dieno???) and things feel a bit off. Further, it's been commented before that flamethrower is a rather ridiculous ability for town to have due to all the secondary damage town would likely take. Speculation to be sure, but something to think about. If for whatever reason austin really is town, and the last scum really has done a good job of "blending in," then Hapa's filter would be the first filter I'd dive into. I bet Hapa will angrily ask for a case to defend against now, but I just wanted to throw this out there as something to think about. + Show Spoiler + Sadly, my motivation too is pretty low right now given the length of this game T.T... *angrily asks for a case* But seriously... SnB, VE, and Risk tried to get me lynched. Therefore I clearly should be a scum suspect. | ||
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Anywho, protected iamperfection last night, though I'm not sure what good it did. Will be targeting Lavos with flamethrower for the next however many cycles. | ||
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On December 11 2012 08:53 Keirathi wrote: So what the heck are we supposed to be doing? Nothing except sending in action PMs? Well that and organizing how we end up fighting lavos I suppose. Seems pretty straightforward though - have someone RB toad every night and everyone else pile on Lavos. | ||
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On December 11 2012 09:03 TheChronicler wrote: Lol wtf am I supposed to do? Have any damaging/healing/whatever abilities? | ||
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On December 11 2012 15:25 syllogism wrote: I don't understand how Oats took 400 damage unless there is, in fact, 7 mafia. Hapa who did you give fireproof coating to? iamperfection | ||
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Looks like we're on pace to murder Lavos in 3 days | ||
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On December 13 2012 05:05 Promethelax wrote: Possibility! Lavos has fire resistance so hapa does less damage. Nah doubt it. I mean if you want to call an RB/Track on me, go for it and you'll see that I'm targeting Lavos (impossible for scum). I'd care more about all this normally, but we'll win with or without my damage at this point. | ||
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GG though! | ||
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On December 13 2012 10:29 Adam4167 wrote: That phagga lynch really chapped my ass. I saw it coming, knew it was stupid and wrong, posted as much, went to bed with Austin being the leading votegetter by a mile, wake up and phagga is dead. Even worse that literally everyone involved was town, except austin. Yeah I'm still pretty pissed at myself for that. Part of me thought that scum would have all but given up by that time in the game. On the lynch day, Austin was trying to get Phagga lynched, and Phagga wasn't too active. Made me ignore a lot of really townie things in his filter (like not understanding that SnB was claiming scum when he voted to go to AD 1999) | ||
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On December 13 2012 16:08 gonzaw wrote: Who the hell is Schala? EDIT: The SNES and another version have different names I think I take it you mean "Ayla" then? Schala is Queen Zeal's daughter and Magus's older sister. http://chrono.wikia.com/wiki/Schala | ||
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