It all came down to this. The final Wings of Liberty GSL finals. Samsung KHAN's RorO had reached the finals on the back of solid play across all three match-up, taking out one former champion after another, earning the respect if not the love of GSL fans everywhere. On the other hand, the KeSPA diehards stood firmly in his corner, championing him as the one who would fulfill a prophecy long foretold. Azubu's Symbol had officially completed his comeback, reaching the final he had seemed destined to reach seasons ago, defeating two other late-blooming hopefuls in Innovation and Curious along the way. Outside the GSL, Symbol had reached many finals before. All of those journeys had ended in runner-up finishes for Symbol, but a Code S championship would exorcise all of his silvery demons.
In the end, the last Code S Wings of Liberty finals ended up being a repeat of the one that came before it. The player from the shadows toppled the (ex-)TSL Zerg, proving that while he may have been less hyped and less liked, he was undeniably better. While many people supported Symbol in their hearts, the numbers showed that RorO was a superior Zerg vs. Zerg player to Symbol in both the long and short term views of their careers. This manifested early on an early 3 - 0 lead for RorO, which proved to be insurmountable. Though Symbol showed grit and perseverance to come back 2 - 3, RorO closed him out in the sixth set. Like his close friend and former teammate HyuN, Symbol finally bit the dust on Cloud Kingdom, the victim of one fatal mistake after a hard fought battle.
Going into this finals, it was clear that it was the least hyped finals in a long time. HotS was looming, fan's tolerance for Zerg had long run thin, and people simply did not feel compelled to watch. Even the ever-enthusiastic casting archon Tastosis could not ignore these facts. But in the end, Symbol and Roro converted some skeptics and proved doubters wrong. They delivered a finals much better than many that had come before it. It was not a storybook ending to the Wings of Liberty era of the GSL, but it was one that paid homage to its roots. A talented but unfulfilled Zerg player from Brood War made the switch, realized his talent, and finally won the glory he had been seeking for years.
Game One: Akilon Flats
Both players opened hatch first, with Symbol going into pool before gas whereas Roro elected to take his gas before the pool. Past the slightly different openings, the game played out mostly the same for the next couple of minutes, with both players going into ling/baneling and adding on their spires shortly after. Both players attempted to poke around with their mutalisks and lings, but they both transitioned into the standard roach/infestor armies after failing to deal any significant damage.
From that point on, the game played out like a standard ZvZ, as both battled with roach-hydra-infestor armies while constantly trying to get ahead economically with extra bases. Symbol gain an edge by mixing in his signature ZvZ nydus worm play, but Roro was on top of his game and denied all attempts.
With neither player able to take an advantage at the muta-ling nor roach-infestor phases of the game, they both moved up to the highly confusing infestor-brood lord late game. Both sides threw down dozens upon dozens of broodlings to wear each other down, without it being clear who was getting the better of the other. Almost forty minutes into the game, with the map being split almost evenly in half, Roro finally managed to land the money fungals that allowed him to severely damage and eventually kill Symbol's brood lords, forcing the GG. (Symbol 0 - 1 RorO)
Game Two: Icarus
Game two started out mirroring game one, with both players opening up hatch first, following up with spawning pools and extractors on the backdoor rich gas geysers. Symbol started up his ling speed and threw down his roach warren slightly earlier than Roro, who was originally planning to go for quick a fast lair but cancelled it upon seeing Symbol's more aggressive opening.
The Samsung Zerg was able to defend the subsequent attack from Symbol with a combination of an evo chamber wall, good transfuses and roaches of his own. RorO's successful defense allowed him to build a huge army of well upgraded roaches that struck while Symbol was cutting corners attempting to catch up, forcing the GG and sending him up 2 - 0. (Symbol 0 - 2 RorO)
Game Three: Bel'shir Vestige
Symbol decided that going hatch first had not worked out the way he'd wanted it to, and switched things up by going pool-hatch instead of hatch first, whereas Roro stuck to what had worked for him in the two previous games. Both players went up to four gases quickly and went up to Lair – Roro at five minutes, Symbol two minutes later. From there, Symbol went into roach/hydra and Roro into roach/infestor with a twist – he kept his opponent completely in the dark about his ambitious tech path.
Roro managed to successfully hide his infestors until Symbol – utilizing a creep highway to get his units and spine crawlers over to the third of his opponent, came knocking. Once he saw the attack coming, he rained fungal growths all over Symbol's army and proceeded to wipe the floor with the Azubu Zerg. A few minutes later, RorO collected his forces and marched on Symbol's third to collect his third victory in a row. (Symbol 0 - 3 RorO)
Game Four: Whirlwind
Match point. Symbol knew that he was down 0 - 3 and that he had no more room for screwups, but he seemed remarkably calm for someone who looked like he was about to lose his first GSL final 0 - 4.
Both players opened up hatch first on the most macro-friendly map in the map pool, following up with spawning pools and going up to four gases each. Roro managed to sneak two lings into Symbol's base that gave him information on everything (which was not much) that was going on inside Symbol's base, surviving inside the base for a long time before finally being killed off. The players continued to mirror each other as they both threw down double evo chambers, lairs and roach warrens at roughly the same time, even expanding to their respective thirds simultaneously.
Roro then elected to go into the infestor tech that had almost single-handedly won him the last game, whereas Symbol decided to get tricky with a nydus network and burrow tech. At the same time, Symbol made sure his presence was felt out on the map as he denied creep spread from Roro by killing off a queen and even managing to take down his opponent's third base.
While Symbol dealt RorO a painful blow by killing the third base, his truly big break came immediately after. As Roro's forces were occupied trying to resecure the expansion, Symbol was able to get a nydus worm up inside RorO's main. Moments later, Symbol's units were flooding Roro's base, taking down the lair and crippling the Samsung Zerg's economy. Symbol, having finally gotten himself into a good enough position, proceeded to throw down to more manner nyduses to put the final nail in the coffin and force the GG, bringing the series to 1 - 3. (Symbol 1 - 3 RorO)
Game Five: Neo Planet S
Game five of the series started off just as standard as the previous four, with Symbol going pool first and Roro going for hatch first. Roro followed up with quicker ling speed and a roach warren, with Symbol also adding on a baneling nest. Around the six-minute mark, Roro moved across the map to put on some ling/roach aggression, but Symbol was able to deflect the attack with clutch transfuses and good surrounds, following up by taking out Roro's reinforcing lings with banelings.
It was then Symbol's time to put on aggression, moving across the map with lings and banes and morphing yet more outside the natural of Roro. He was able to get past the evo/roach wall and take out some larvae alongside a queen. Soon after, Symbol's reinforcements joined the battle, breaking down the wall and flooding Roro's natural, taking out every drone and forcing the GG, putting the series at 2 - 3. (Symbol 2 - 3 RorO)
Game Six: Cloud Kingdom
Coming into game six, Symbol was looking like he might pull off a comeback á la Squirtle in Season 2 of 2012. With everything on the line, both players decided to play it standard once more as they opened up hatch first, with Roro taking the quicker gas and Symbol the quicker pool. Both players played the game out mostly the same after that point, going up to three bases with equal tech and upgrades while trading minor blows with zerglings and roaches.
Symbol, having scouted Roro's infestation pit, knew that the Samsung Zerg was upgrading his pathogen glands and had infestors about to pop out. In a candidate for one of the best plays of the year, Symbol cleverly contaminated the infestation pit right before the upgrade finished, and so the infestors popped out without the extra energy. Soon after, Symbol went for a ling runby on Roro's fourth, killing it before it could be cancelled.
Roro was put in a rough spot, but he was able to even up the game once his hydralisks were out. His troops pushed Symbol all the way back across the map, even taking out the Azubu Zerg's third and fourth bases in the process. However, Symbol was quick to strike back, catching and killing several of RorO's burrowed infestors in the middle of the map. On equal supply, Symbol went for another attack to deny Roro's fourth base, succeeding and forcing a cancel. .
After a constant back and forth where neither player was able to take a lead that stuck, Symbol finally made a mistake that would have lasting and dire consequences. Symbol split his forces – or perhaps it was RorO that split Symbol's forces – and a portion of his hydras and roaches attacked into Roro's natural while the rest of his army fought and died against Roro's bigger army in the middle of the map. Roro cleaned up both the main army of Symbol and the attack in the natural that did all too little, and proceeded to counterattack immediately.
Even without being able to see the 80 supply difference, Symbol knew he was in serious trouble. But there was little he could do with low-energy infestors as a roach/hydra army marched into his third, took it down and proceeded to knock down the natural. With no economy and no army, the former-TSL Zerg surrendered the series to Roro, ending the final Wings of Liberty GSL. (Symbol 2 - 4 RorO)
-.-' not sure what to say... congrats to roro but blah what a bad finals to end WoL I wonder if Roro will be as forgotten as jjajki or Sniper. I'm sure there are a lot of Khan fans out there but other than them..
On March 11 2013 08:26 ShowTheLights wrote: -.-' not sure what to say... congrats to roro but blah what a bad finals to end WoL I wonder if Roro will be as forgotten as jjajki or Sniper. I'm sure there are a lot of Khan fans out there but other than them..
Please. People keep saying "Oh man I've already forgotten about Sniper" yet are all to happy to tell us how often they forget about him.
Also you assume instantly Roro will tank? Why? What in his play indicated he wasn't of a champion calibre besides any bias you might have against his race?
No-one forgets GSL champions. You are already in the history books for winning it.
Congrats Roro! I look forward to more great play from him.
The games were really good, not sure why it was a bad finals? Because people hate Zergs nowadays? That's quite understandable, but that doesn't make the games worse. Also, the lack of interest from many people is also the fact that a HotS tournament was occuring and that HotS is around the corner.
Gratz to RorO, what a humble and awesome guy. Disappointed for Symbol, but he did so well to make it to the finals and has a bright future. Game 6 was awesome to watch.
lol people are so butthurt that roro won and that it was a zvz. how often did we have a zvz finals? 3? thats too many for you? and roro was just the better fucking player. deal with it.
Wow the results are exactly what everyone predicted they would be, including myself. Sure glad I watched IEM instead.
he did so well to make it to the finals and has a bright future.
ROFL no at least not in starcraft. He will always be a Kong this tournament was his last chance. No one had as many opportunities and consistently squandered them the way Symbol did. He had his chances the GSL, Homestory Cup, MLG and even special tournaments like Iron Squid. None of the players he lost to were even the best. He lost championships to Roro, Snute, MMA, and Violet good players but none are an excuse.
not a good final to end WoL, imo. also glad i focused more on IEM. im happy hots is finally here to replace wol, just about time; i think all of sc2 fans need something new (1 year of bl+inf really hurts).
Roro contaminated Symbol's +2 attack and pathogen glands within seconds of each other, not the other way around. Roro was using contaminate really well the entire series. Some interesting games but still ZvZ in the end
Great finals, good writeup! I could be wrong but I believe there is a mistake in this part: "Symbol cleverly contaminated the infestation pit right before the upgrade finished, and so the infestors popped out without the extra energy." I believe that RorO was the one to contaminate Symbol's infestation pit which was near the ramp at his expansion right before the infestors finished but it didn't do much of an effect since they never engaged for a while so the infestors got their full energy lol
I was honestly incredibly entertained by this series. Incredibly good plays from both sides really went a long ways to make ZvZ interesting in my opinion. Especially the multiple uses of contaminate! really awesome. Sad Symbol didn't win but Roro was simply better where it counted.
I have to say that though it is impressive that RoRo won, I think that the way in which he won is closer than we give Symbol credit for right now. It is cool that RoRo got a win, but, though I'm a Khan fan , we will have to see if he can transition effectively to HotS to continue to compete well. Also, on a side note, fuck people who say they have "forgotten" about Sniper. Sniper is still great, and people who say that literally just bring him up because he is set in their minds as an amazing player.
I think it was pretty decent for a zvz, although we've also seen better. Game 1 was hilarious, it was like a parody of the popular stereotype of zvz, with a 5-minute standoff b/w two armies of broodlord/infestor firing hundreds of broodlings at each other until finally one side cracked. It was so absurd it was somehow entertaining. It was an entirely fitting way to sign off Lings of Liberty.
On March 09 2013 07:01 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: TeamLiquid Writer Predictions Fionn: Symbol 4 - 2 RorO Kollin: Symbol 4 - 2 RorO monk: RorO 4 - 3 Symbol Stuchiu: RorO 4 - 2 Symbol Waxangel: Symbol 4 - 1 RorO Zealously: Symbol 4 - 3 RorO
Personally, I don't see how Symbol isn't the underdog here. His zvz has been abysmal, recently losing 4-0 to Snute in the HSC finals, 3-0 to Scarlett at IS2. The only exception was his victory over Curious, but then Curious basically just did the same two strategies (mutas into roach/infestor or roach/infestor) over and over the entire series. Symbol played well but it was also a disappointing showing from Curious. Symbol has made a leap of improvement this GSL, but I question how far you can improve a weak matchup in such a short span of time.
Roro's zvz on the other hand is already world class. He has a 62% win, and 71% in Proleague. He beat Life this GSL, who is often considered the best zvz'er and best player in the world (Life also 2-0'd Symbol earlier this GSL.) He shifts between all-out aggression and standard macro effortlessly. His preparation and scouting are meticulous, as we have seen earlier. He's unpredictable, he adapts his play to his opponents' weaknesses. His own play is tight with no obvious weaknesses for others to exploit. His results have been on a steep upward trajectory. In short, he is a complete player.
On paper, Roro has to be considered the favourite. Of course that hasn't meant squat this GSL. In fact, it's meant reverse squat. Almost every single round Symbol has been counted out, and every single time he has squeaked past. He just barely made it to code S in the first place on wildcards. The list of players who were supposed to send Symbol home on his way here is noteworthy: Creator, MKP, Squirtle, Innovation, and Curious.
Will Symbol pull off one last upset and complete the trend this GSL of underdogs upsetting favourites? All I can say is, between the Roro we have seen so far, and the Symbol we have seen so far, Roro is a cut above.
Gj to both of then, kind of a lame way to end wings after all the legendary tvz's of past finals, but with HotS coming, it's probably the last time zergs are gonna know what it feels like to dominate
I am honestly surprised to see that people dislike Roro so much. I really don't understand where this comes from. I thought he was actually quite popular after doing so well in WCS Korea back then. Of course he wasn't in the spotlight for a little while after that because they only put him into code A and he didn't do so well in his first code S but I really don't understand when and why people suddenly started to hate him.
I also don't like that people always just mention Jjakji and Sniper when they talk about champions to be forgotten. How is Seed any better? Maybe he is a likeable person but I would say the same about Jjakji as well. I feel sad for Jjakji that he never really got to show himself at a tournament like MLG or IEM despite winning a GSL (I know he will play at the next MLG but this one is only single elimination and he got a tough bracket).
Game one was pretty good, with the hilariously long Brood War and the great ling runby that essentially won RorO the game. Game two had a really awesome, nail-biting defence by RorO.
Certainly not the best GSL final, but it was in no way bad.
I am sure I made a bet with someone about when the first GSL champion would be a Kespa player. If only I could remember what I said and who I made the bet with ...
Anyway, how long has it been since Kespa officially joined the party? 9 months? A year?
re: anyone talking about people bitching about sniper being forgettable. No one is going to forget sniper or roro won a GSL, what they are gonna forget is the games played... I can't think of a single Sniper game from his championship run that I would recommend anyone watch, same for Roro's run. Its not about forgetting or remembering they won or if they deserved to win or not (they obviously did) its the fact that they were so goddamn boring that makes the event of their winning nothing to really talk about. Sure, part of it is that BL/Infestor stayed dominant for as long as it did and that's not these champion's fault but winning through straight-up metagame+superior mechanics without more than maybe one inspired game out of 50 is boring and forgettable.
tldr; Sniper/Roro are not forgettable as champions but the games they played to get there totally are.
On March 11 2013 08:26 ShowTheLights wrote: -.-' not sure what to say... congrats to roro but blah what a bad finals to end WoL I wonder if Roro will be as forgotten as jjajki or Sniper. I'm sure there are a lot of Khan fans out there but other than them..
i think everyone would be forgotten who wins just code s. I mean they run so often, how can we not.
Sure this isn't as climactic as one would want for the final WOL tournament ever, but oh well, Roro was tested in every matchup and dominated, gj to him.
On March 11 2013 08:42 UrsusRex wrote: Wow the results are exactly what everyone predicted they would be, including myself. Sure glad I watched IEM instead.
he did so well to make it to the finals and has a bright future.
ROFL no at least not in starcraft. He will always be a Kong this tournament was his last chance. No one had as many opportunities and consistently squandered them the way Symbol did. He had his chances the GSL, Homestory Cup, MLG and even special tournaments like Iron Squid. None of the players he lost to were even the best. He lost championships to Roro, Snute, MMA, and Violet good players but none are an excuse.
Lolwut? Why all the vitriol? And your logic doesn't work at all. You assume that all of his finals appearances were just opportunities that were handed to him; he earned them, which is an achievement it itself. Also, at the end of 2011 MKP had lost three times in the GSL finals, so by your logic he had no future. He then immediately went on to win 2 MLGs... sounds like he had a future.
On March 11 2013 08:42 UrsusRex wrote: Wow the results are exactly what everyone predicted they would be, including myself. Sure glad I watched IEM instead.
he did so well to make it to the finals and has a bright future.
ROFL no at least not in starcraft. He will always be a Kong this tournament was his last chance. No one had as many opportunities and consistently squandered them the way Symbol did. He had his chances the GSL, Homestory Cup, MLG and even special tournaments like Iron Squid. None of the players he lost to were even the best. He lost championships to Roro, Snute, MMA, and Violet good players but none are an excuse.
Yellow says hi.
Increase your post count before you actually talk shit about ppl getting medals.
On March 11 2013 08:46 peekn wrote: The elephant has been noticed.
i think the conclusion to elephant in the room should be stated that BW players are very good at sc2, but the correlation is no where near linear and most often the mid tier to low tier bw pros are the best in sc2
On March 11 2013 09:21 Evil_Sheep wrote: I think it was pretty decent for a zvz, although we've also seen better. Game 1 was hilarious, it was like a parody of the popular stereotype of zvz, with a 5-minute standoff b/w two armies of broodlord/infestor firing hundreds of broodlings at each other until finally one side cracked. It was so absurd it was somehow entertaining. It was an entirely fitting way to sign off Lings of Liberty.
On March 09 2013 07:01 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: TeamLiquid Writer Predictions Fionn: Symbol 4 - 2 RorO Kollin: Symbol 4 - 2 RorO monk: RorO 4 - 3 Symbol Stuchiu: RorO 4 - 2 Symbol Waxangel: Symbol 4 - 1 RorO Zealously: Symbol 4 - 3 RorO
Personally, I don't see how Symbol isn't the underdog here. His zvz has been abysmal, recently losing 4-0 to Snute in the HSC finals, 3-0 to Scarlett at IS2. The only exception was his victory over Curious, but then Curious basically just did the same two strategies (mutas into roach/infestor or roach/infestor) over and over the entire series. Symbol played well but it was also a disappointing showing from Curious. Symbol has made a leap of improvement this GSL, but I question how far you can improve a weak matchup in such a short span of time.
Roro's zvz on the other hand is already world class. He has a 62% win, and 71% in Proleague. He beat Life this GSL, who is often considered the best zvz'er and best player in the world (Life also 2-0'd Symbol earlier this GSL.) He shifts between all-out aggression and standard macro effortlessly. His preparation and scouting are meticulous, as we have seen earlier. He's unpredictable, he adapts his play to his opponents' weaknesses. His own play is tight with no obvious weaknesses for others to exploit. His results have been on a steep upward trajectory. In short, he is a complete player.
On paper, Roro has to be considered the favourite. Of course that hasn't meant squat this GSL. In fact, it's meant reverse squat. Almost every single round Symbol has been counted out, and every single time he has squeaked past. He just barely made it to code S in the first place on wildcards. The list of players who were supposed to send Symbol home on his way here is noteworthy: Creator, MKP, Squirtle, Innovation, and Curious.
Will Symbol pull off one last upset and complete the trend this GSL of underdogs upsetting favourites? All I can say is, between the Roro we have seen so far, and the Symbol we have seen so far, Roro is a cut above.
Roro 4-2 Symbol
While I agreed with your prediction, I disagreed with your logic. Had I seen this post before the finals, I would have said something along the lines of: "RorO was 2-0'd by IdrA. What's your point?"
Symbol, having scouted Roro's infestation pit, knew that the Samsung Zerg was upgrading his pathogen glands and had infestors about to pop out. In a candidate for one of the best plays of the year, Symbol cleverly contaminated the infestation pit right before the upgrade finished, and so the infestors popped out without the extra energy. Soon after, Symbol went for a ling runby on Roro's fourth, killing it before it could be cancelled.
Isn't Roro the one who contaminated Symbol's Infestation Pit?
On March 11 2013 09:40 Fischbacher wrote: I honestly feel this final is being undersold.
Game one was pretty good, with the hilariously long Brood War and the great ling runby that essentially won RorO the game. Game two had a really awesome, nail-biting defence by RorO.
Certainly not the best GSL final, but it was in no way bad.
I think recaps for SC2 reflects the fanbase, which are likely more casual and don't really care to read details. It was generally more geared towards hardcore fans before.
By beating Fantasy twice in OSL, Jangbi made Samsung Khan leave the Kong Line for ever.
It just feels a bit weird to see RorO having a winrate higher than 50%. I am almost crazy enough to dare that we can finally have him in Fantasy PL, but I still wouldn't pick him.
Lolwut? Why all the vitriol? And your logic doesn't work at all. You assume that all of his finals appearances were just opportunities that were handed to him; he earned them, which is an achievement it itself. Also, at the end of 2011 MKP had lost three times in the GSL finals, so by your logic he had no future. He then immediately went on to win 2 MLGs... sounds like he had a future.
I've never seen anything from Symbol that leads me to believe he has the resilience of players like Marine King or Jangbi from broodwar. I didn't mean to sound vitriolic this is just a player that has disappointed me so many times and after watching Snute win a championship off if him it made this result so predictable. I predicted the finals would be one sided and Symbol would easily be overcome and have a non exciting match series. All of my predictions came true. I just have no faith left in symbol and the very act of watching his matches in a tournament feels like an exercise in futility since you already whats coming. I suppose you would call me cynical and tell me I don't know what his new HotS career will bring and he could even become a champion. You would even be right but I still wouldn't really believe it.
With all the other rising stars and Kespa's rise and their lack of experience in HotS I think we will see less of players like Symbol. That is just my sober assessment of what will come. I could totally be wrong though. God knows some of the things I thought about liquid hero a year ago would have made me look about as prophetic as Artosis.
Symbol, having scouted Roro's infestation pit, knew that the Samsung Zerg was upgrading his pathogen glands and had infestors about to pop out. In a candidate for one of the best plays of the year, Symbol cleverly contaminated the infestation pit right before the upgrade finished, and so the infestors popped out without the extra energy. Soon after, Symbol went for a ling runby on Roro's fourth, killing it before it could be cancelled.
Isn't Roro the one who contaminated Symbol's Infestation Pit?
Ya I'm pretty sure that was Roro who made that "play of the year."
On March 11 2013 09:40 Fischbacher wrote: I honestly feel this final is being undersold.
Game one was pretty good, with the hilariously long Brood War and the great ling runby that essentially won RorO the game. Game two had a really awesome, nail-biting defence by RorO.
Certainly not the best GSL final, but it was in no way bad.
I think recaps for SC2 reflects the fanbase, which are likely more casual and don't really care to read details. It was generally more geared towards hardcore fans before.
I always feel like the BW write-ups where a lot better. Never really got into BW, but every time I read a battle report I just feel compelled to watch the games.
The TL forum is being run by nazis. Nowhere else do you get banned for saying your opinion. If for example i say that ROOTCatz is a terrible player who hasn't done nearly anything playing the game i'll get warned or banned
Lolwut? Why all the vitriol? And your logic doesn't work at all. You assume that all of his finals appearances were just opportunities that were handed to him; he earned them, which is an achievement it itself. Also, at the end of 2011 MKP had lost three times in the GSL finals, so by your logic he had no future. He then immediately went on to win 2 MLGs... sounds like he had a future.
I've never seen anything from Symbol that leads me to believe he has the resilience of players like Marine King or Jangbi from broodwar. I didn't mean to sound vitriolic this is just a player that has disappointed me so many times and after watching Snute win a championship off if him it made this result so predictable. I predicted the finals would be one sided and Symbol would easily be overcome and have a non exciting match series. All of my predictions came true. I just have no faith left in symbol and the very act of watching his matches in a tournament feels like an exercise in futility since you already whats coming. I suppose you would call me cynical and tell me I don't know what his new HotS career will bring and he could even become a champion. You would even be right but I still wouldn't really believe it.
With all the other rising stars and Kespa's rise and their lack of experience in HotS I think we will see less of players like Symbol. That is just my sober assessment of what will come. I could totally be wrong though. God knows some of the things I thought about liquid hero a year ago would have made me look about as prophetic as Artosis.
fair enough. I just feel that at some point his clutch team-league skills should make him come through in a finals. But I see your point.
On March 11 2013 12:40 Nedved wrote: The TL forum is being run by nazis. Nowhere else do you get banned for saying your opinion. If for example i say that ROOTCatz is a terrible player who hasn't done nearly anything playing the game i'll get warned or banned
Saying your opinion won't get you banned. Martyring will.
RorO has destroyed my anti team in BW, and fortunately I was smart enough to never put him on my anti team in SC2. He is legit now. Congrats to him, and it does make me very happy to see a current Kespa player win GSL.
On March 11 2013 12:40 Nedved wrote: The TL forum is being run by nazis. Nowhere else do you get banned for saying your opinion. If for example i say that ROOTCatz is a terrible player who hasn't done nearly anything playing the game i'll get warned or banned
On March 11 2013 12:40 Nedved wrote: The TL forum is being run by nazis. Nowhere else do you get banned for saying your opinion. If for example i say that ROOTCatz is a terrible player who hasn't done nearly anything playing the game i'll get warned or banned
You would probably get banned, because you're martyring. And the rule on TL is no caster/player-bashing, so if your opinion is being disrespectful towards casters/players, then you deservedly get banned. There haven't even been any bans in this thread.
EDIT: and just saying, you don't technically have any "rights" on TL, if the mods don't like you or the way you post, they'll ban you, because "We will make all attempts to treat everyone with due respect and to accommodate everyone's wishes as far as reasonably possible. But, this is a private site. We are not funded by any governments. This means we run the site the way we see fit. We are not obligated to observe anyone's notions of "free speech" or even "fairness."".
On March 11 2013 08:26 ShowTheLights wrote: -.-' not sure what to say... congrats to roro but blah what a bad finals to end WoL I wonder if Roro will be as forgotten as jjajki or Sniper. I'm sure there are a lot of Khan fans out there but other than them..
Please. People keep saying "Oh man I've already forgotten about Sniper" yet are all to happy to tell us how often they forget about him.
Also you assume instantly Roro will tank? Why? What in his play indicated he wasn't of a champion calibre besides any bias you might have against his race?
No-one forgets GSL champions. You are already in the history books for winning it.
Congrats Roro! I look forward to more great play from him.
On March 11 2013 08:26 ShowTheLights wrote: -.-' not sure what to say... congrats to roro but blah what a bad finals to end WoL I wonder if Roro will be as forgotten as jjajki or Sniper. I'm sure there are a lot of Khan fans out there but other than them..
Please. People keep saying "Oh man I've already forgotten about Sniper" yet are all to happy to tell us how often they forget about him.
Also you assume instantly Roro will tank? Why? What in his play indicated he wasn't of a champion calibre besides any bias you might have against his race?
No-one forgets GSL champions. You are already in the history books for winning it.
Congrats Roro! I look forward to more great play from him.
I agree.
Also the only reason people "forgot" about Sniper is the fact that the GSL finals happened at the same time as (but before the finals of) IPL5 "and" the World Championship (which wasn't a big deal since it was a show match but still). Not only that, the GSL finals lead to the 2012 Blizzard Cup almost immediately. It was really a packed two months.
Not only that, Sniper is infamous for taking out fan favorites (so he does have a decent amount of anti-fans which like to downplay his achievements).
This negativity ZvZ bandwagon is appalling. I said this before in another thread but the ZvTs with Symbol vs Innovation and RorO vs Taeja were all bad. Had those series been the finals, people would just whine Zerg imba or something.
(The RorO vs Symbol series was refreshing IMO unlike the ZvTs we've seen a dozen times with Z rolling over T... now one of the Zs can roll over each other. We've seen way more ZvTs in WoL than ZvZs. ZvZs have a lot of potential is IMO, way better than PvP or PvZ.)
I actually can't wait for HotS now because everyone will complain about Terran being IMBA again (at least during the days of T is IMBA, no one was excessively using the "lol ZvZ" [or in this example, T being imba] as an excuse to hate on any player). (At first I dislike HotS bringing T imbalance whine back but it's better than "Patchzerg" or "lets hate on a player because they play Zerg". Again at least with T imba whining, people aren't really hating on any players.)
If this ZvZ was Life vs DRG or something (which would be a good storyline honestly, since they did have the dreamhack finals together) there would probably almost be no one complaining.
The ZvZ negativity seems like an excuse to hate on the players (specifically non-fan favorite players). I said this before (in sort of a joking fun manner but now I'm srs) but RorO could potentially be the Rain of Zerg. If Innovation was the Rain of Terran, does that make RorO the Rain of Zerg... <speculation> <speculation>?!!!111
Also anyone is a "Rain" if:
1. They're not TBLS or any big name from BW.
2. They're KeSPA
3. They come out of no where (like Rain) and basically own up when they first (or in RorO's case, the second) time they appear in GSL or any major tournament. (Speaking of that, funny thing is a lot of people forgot that Innovation made it to the Ro4 in GSL Season 5. Again, it's another case of people forgetting GSL Season 5 mostly because of how "crowded" the tournaments were at the time, with IPL happening at the same time and IPL's finals happening a day after the GSL finals at the same place.)
RorO could be a candidate for the next Rain here... (Also I know Rain himself hasn't been in dominating form for a while but he's still has time to make a comeback.)
On March 11 2013 13:26 Goldfish wrote: I actually can't wait for HotS now because everyone will complain about Terran being IMBA again (at least during the days of T is IMBA, no one was excessively using the "lol ZvZ" [or in this example, T being imba] as an excuse to hate on any player). (At first I dislike HotS bringing T imbalance whine back but it's better than "Patchzerg" or "lets hate on a player because they play Zerg". Again at least with T imba whining, people aren't really hating on any players.)
Heh, you actually make a good point. And I also liked TvT better than ZvZ, so all in all, if imbalance there must be, let it be Terran .
Also, while I may favour Protoss overall, I hope we never see a Protoss era. Adun have mercy.
I legitimately enjoyed watching this series. Normally ZvZ is a bore for me, but there was something about these games. Maybe it was the whole "end of WoL" thing, but I honestly loved seeing the amount of things that were going on in, for example, game 1, or watching the Nydus play on Whirlwind. Regardless, I enjoyed watching the games and think that this series was a good note to end Wings of Liberty on.
On March 11 2013 13:26 Goldfish wrote: I actually can't wait for HotS now because everyone will complain about Terran being IMBA again (at least during the days of T is IMBA, no one was excessively using the "lol ZvZ" [or in this example, T being imba] as an excuse to hate on any player). (At first I dislike HotS bringing T imbalance whine back but it's better than "Patchzerg" or "lets hate on a player because they play Zerg". Again at least with T imba whining, people aren't really hating on any players.)
Heh, you actually make a good point. And I also liked TvT better than ZvZ, so all in all, if imbalance there must be, let it be Terran .
Also, while I may favour Protoss overall, I hope we never see a Protoss era. Adun have mercy.
Is TvT really better? Because I remember a ton of complaints about TvT being a borefest back in the GomTvT days. I personally find marine/tank TvT to be similar to roach/infestor ZvZ in terms of watchability.
To me, all matchups are boring when you've seen enough of them, and interesting if you're watching for the first time in a while. ZvZ overload may have been short, but it's way too oversaturated due to the number of foreign zergs on the scene. There were never more than a couple of Ts or Ps in the foreign scene at any given time. But it's filled with zergs in the past year or so.
Now I may be a Zerg player, but I found this final a fantastic show of great macro (G1), great response play (G2,5), great tactical play (G4,3), and a great demonstration about how the slightest of mistakes can kill you (G6)
On March 11 2013 13:26 Goldfish wrote: I actually can't wait for HotS now because everyone will complain about Terran being IMBA again (at least during the days of T is IMBA, no one was excessively using the "lol ZvZ" [or in this example, T being imba] as an excuse to hate on any player). (At first I dislike HotS bringing T imbalance whine back but it's better than "Patchzerg" or "lets hate on a player because they play Zerg". Again at least with T imba whining, people aren't really hating on any players.)
Heh, you actually make a good point. And I also liked TvT better than ZvZ, so all in all, if imbalance there must be, let it be Terran .
Also, while I may favour Protoss overall, I hope we never see a Protoss era. Adun have mercy.
Is TvT really better? Because I remember a ton of complaints about TvT being a borefest back in the GomTvT days. I personally find marine/tank TvT to be similar to roach/infestor ZvZ in terms of watchability.
To me, all matchups are boring when you've seen enough of them, and interesting if you're watching for the first time in a while. ZvZ overload may have been short, but it's way too oversaturated due to the number of foreign zergs on the scene. There were never more than a couple of Ts or Ps in the foreign scene at any given time. But it's filled with zergs in the past year or so.
People will complain about everything. Not "anything". "everything".
Everyone's threshold for matchups or playstyles is different. I for example struggle to enjoy PvP because I can't get past the horror of it's 4gate, collosus wars or die state for the majority of WoL, yet I know a lot of people have been enjoying it a lot since then and we started getting a lot more interesting plays there. But my PvP threshold wasn't from quantity but quality. For all the ZvZ complaining I'm still nowhere near a quantity threshold. For every ZvZ I've still seen about 5x more TvZs.
P.S. I just finished watching the finals. They were pretty dam good ZvZ games. I don't think any of them were recommended "No". And that's even without fan favourite bias for a change.
On March 11 2013 13:26 Goldfish wrote: I actually can't wait for HotS now because everyone will complain about Terran being IMBA again (at least during the days of T is IMBA, no one was excessively using the "lol ZvZ" [or in this example, T being imba] as an excuse to hate on any player). (At first I dislike HotS bringing T imbalance whine back but it's better than "Patchzerg" or "lets hate on a player because they play Zerg". Again at least with T imba whining, people aren't really hating on any players.)
Heh, you actually make a good point. And I also liked TvT better than ZvZ, so all in all, if imbalance there must be, let it be Terran .
Also, while I may favour Protoss overall, I hope we never see a Protoss era. Adun have mercy.
Is TvT really better? Because I remember a ton of complaints about TvT being a borefest back in the GomTvT days. I personally find marine/tank TvT to be similar to roach/infestor ZvZ in terms of watchability.
TvT is isn't good. It's interesting. It's boring, but you learn a lot, and can see some interesting positional plays. It's just way too long. HotS should fix that a little, I hope. I agree on protoss. At least ZvZ is exciting and not decided only by build order choice. I don't think mirror matchups are the problem, really. TvP is my least favourite matchup :D
The victory by a veritable "new kid on the block" shows that just because you're the bully on the block does not mean that it will remain your territory. All that aside, I actually hoped that Symbol would take the win. After that 3-0 deficit of Symbol I lost all hope of him coming back, but at least he showed some courage by making an honourable last stand.
On March 11 2013 09:21 Evil_Sheep wrote: I think it was pretty decent for a zvz, although we've also seen better. Game 1 was hilarious, it was like a parody of the popular stereotype of zvz, with a 5-minute standoff b/w two armies of broodlord/infestor firing hundreds of broodlings at each other until finally one side cracked. It was so absurd it was somehow entertaining. It was an entirely fitting way to sign off Lings of Liberty.
On March 09 2013 07:01 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: TeamLiquid Writer Predictions Fionn: Symbol 4 - 2 RorO Kollin: Symbol 4 - 2 RorO monk: RorO 4 - 3 Symbol Stuchiu: RorO 4 - 2 Symbol Waxangel: Symbol 4 - 1 RorO Zealously: Symbol 4 - 3 RorO
Personally, I don't see how Symbol isn't the underdog here. His zvz has been abysmal, recently losing 4-0 to Snute in the HSC finals, 3-0 to Scarlett at IS2. The only exception was his victory over Curious, but then Curious basically just did the same two strategies (mutas into roach/infestor or roach/infestor) over and over the entire series. Symbol played well but it was also a disappointing showing from Curious. Symbol has made a leap of improvement this GSL, but I question how far you can improve a weak matchup in such a short span of time.
Roro's zvz on the other hand is already world class. He has a 62% win, and 71% in Proleague. He beat Life this GSL, who is often considered the best zvz'er and best player in the world (Life also 2-0'd Symbol earlier this GSL.) He shifts between all-out aggression and standard macro effortlessly. His preparation and scouting are meticulous, as we have seen earlier. He's unpredictable, he adapts his play to his opponents' weaknesses. His own play is tight with no obvious weaknesses for others to exploit. His results have been on a steep upward trajectory. In short, he is a complete player.
On paper, Roro has to be considered the favourite. Of course that hasn't meant squat this GSL. In fact, it's meant reverse squat. Almost every single round Symbol has been counted out, and every single time he has squeaked past. He just barely made it to code S in the first place on wildcards. The list of players who were supposed to send Symbol home on his way here is noteworthy: Creator, MKP, Squirtle, Innovation, and Curious.
Will Symbol pull off one last upset and complete the trend this GSL of underdogs upsetting favourites? All I can say is, between the Roro we have seen so far, and the Symbol we have seen so far, Roro is a cut above.
Roro 4-2 Symbol
While I agreed with your prediction, I disagreed with your logic. Had I seen this post before the finals, I would have said something along the lines of: "RorO was 2-0'd by IdrA. What's your point?"
Kinda funny the way Sc2 works sometimes.
The point was that we had lots of recent games to watch that showed Symbol's zvz wasn't all that good, and we had lots of recent games that showed Roro's zvz was very good. And that showed in the results.
On March 11 2013 09:36 ticklishmusic wrote: why in the world would symbol put down manner nyduses (nydii?) if he won his first game after being three down?
it was really sad to see WoL end like this.. the finals often are really bad, but this one might have topped them all now at least we can look forward to another year of terran rule since its Blizzard and new units/addons hopefully we will get better GSL finals from now on
On March 11 2013 08:26 ShowTheLights wrote: -.-' not sure what to say... congrats to roro but blah what a bad finals to end WoL I wonder if Roro will be as forgotten as jjajki or Sniper. I'm sure there are a lot of Khan fans out there but other than them..
Please. People keep saying "Oh man I've already forgotten about Sniper" yet are all to happy to tell us how often they forget about him.
Also you assume instantly Roro will tank? Why? What in his play indicated he wasn't of a champion calibre besides any bias you might have against his race?
No-one forgets GSL champions. You are already in the history books for winning it.
Congrats Roro! I look forward to more great play from him.
I guess forgetting wouldn't be the right term to use here, but less memorable. It is quite easy to understand jiakji's situation as that gsl is one of the least watched gsl so far. Sniper played on one of the largest foreign stages and yet we somehow dont associate him as a gsl champion much like that of jiakji. Similar cases happened in bw too, does anyone still remember hydra winning msl or the final with calm vs kwanro(i dont remember who won that one lol). I guess they are just not as hyped. It might be the same thing here. As it is the last GSL of WoL i don't think people paid much attention to it. Compounded with the increasing popularity of other e-sport games, this gsl isn't just on par in term of hype i guess.=(
PS: aside from jiakji's case, every other less memorable finals has been non tvt mirror matchups, not saying tvt mirror is any better, but at least the terran tend to produce more popular players(oov,nada,boxer,mma,mvp,flash)
glad the era of code zvz is over, although i am happy for Roro on having achieved a level of success he never did in brood war. I just find it amazing how much a lot of the kespa crew has come in such a short amount of time.