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On January 16 2017 22:32 Excludos wrote:Would you swap a healer for Thorbjörn by any chance? Her job is much close to what he does than any of the supports. Her only way of "supporting the team" on the first point is through the teleport, which doesn't do such a good job if everyone on the enemy team is still alive as they push in because your team doesn't have enough healing. You're thinking of healing in terms of glowy yellow lights and not game mechanics. There's no functional difference between having 75 shields and an automatic 75 heal after taking 75 or more damage. No difference between max 75 shield regen and max 75 health regen when you're not taking damage.
So how does Sym support? She keeps your team alive longer, same as any healer does. Granted, not as well as other supports do, but she also provides damage blocking and more damage than any other support.
Basically Symmetra's role is to kill the enemy team faster than when you have a different support, and to keep your team alive longer than having only one support.
Torb's armour packs do the same, except you really can't maintain them on your whole team. So answer is no, because he's worse at it, but yes if he was much better at dispensing armour.
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On January 21 2017 05:41 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2017 22:32 Excludos wrote:On January 16 2017 12:46 Eppa! wrote: Symm is so much better with 1 healer? Would you swap a healer for Thorbjörn by any chance? Her job is much close to what he does than any of the supports. Her only way of "supporting the team" on the first point is through the teleport, which doesn't do such a good job if everyone on the enemy team is still alive as they push in because your team doesn't have enough healing. You're thinking of healing in terms of glowy yellow lights and not game mechanics. There's no functional difference between having 75 shields and an automatic 75 heal after taking 75 or more damage. No difference between max 75 shield regen and max 75 health regen when you're not taking damage. So how does Sym support? She keeps your team alive longer, same as any healer does. Granted, not as well as other supports do, but she also provides damage blocking and more damage than any other support. Basically Symmetra's role is to kill the enemy team faster than when you have a different support, and to keep your team alive longer than having only one support. Torb's armour packs do the same, except you really can't maintain them on your whole team. So answer is no, because he's worse at it, but yes if he was much better at dispensing armour.
No, I am thinking about it in terms of game mechanics. Symmetra doesn't keep the team alive, she just gives them a tad more to live off of. If you ONLY take 75 damage, the difference is, as you say, nothing. If you're, say, D'va, and you take 800 damage, the difference between 75 shield and getting constantly healed you will find is HUGE. Symmetra isn't a healer, she's a defensive character with supporting traits. But a large portion of characters have supporting traits. Would you put soldier as a support because of his aoe healing?
You have to look at it from their main function, and the main function of symmetra is not to heal up the team, just as it's not Thorbjørn.
Let's put it another way: If you choose symmetra instead of another healer, you now have two options: Lucio for aoe heal, which is needed if you want to keep most of your team topped up, or Ana, to keep your tanks alive as they sustain large amount of damage. Lucio can't keep tanks alive, and Ana can't focus on the entire team. Symmetra can't do either.
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On January 21 2017 06:02 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2017 05:41 WolfintheSheep wrote:On January 16 2017 22:32 Excludos wrote:On January 16 2017 12:46 Eppa! wrote: Symm is so much better with 1 healer? Would you swap a healer for Thorbjörn by any chance? Her job is much close to what he does than any of the supports. Her only way of "supporting the team" on the first point is through the teleport, which doesn't do such a good job if everyone on the enemy team is still alive as they push in because your team doesn't have enough healing. You're thinking of healing in terms of glowy yellow lights and not game mechanics. There's no functional difference between having 75 shields and an automatic 75 heal after taking 75 or more damage. No difference between max 75 shield regen and max 75 health regen when you're not taking damage. So how does Sym support? She keeps your team alive longer, same as any healer does. Granted, not as well as other supports do, but she also provides damage blocking and more damage than any other support. Basically Symmetra's role is to kill the enemy team faster than when you have a different support, and to keep your team alive longer than having only one support. Torb's armour packs do the same, except you really can't maintain them on your whole team. So answer is no, because he's worse at it, but yes if he was much better at dispensing armour. No, I am thinking about it in terms of game mechanics. Symmetra doesn't keep the team alive, she just gives them a tad more to live off of. If you ONLY take 75 damage, the difference is, as you say, nothing. [b]If you're, say, D'va, and you take 800 damage, the difference between 75 shield and getting constantly healed you will find is HUGE. Symmetra isn't a healer, she's a defensive character with supporting traits Damage only matters if you die (or if, for some reason, you can't top up between fights). And that 75 shield is equivalent to 6 seconds of basic Lucio heal or 2 seconds of amped heal.
If a Soldier takes 250 damage and lives, it doesn't matter if that extra 51 health came from healing or from shields. He's alive.
But a large portion of characters have supporting traits. Would you put soldier as a support because of his aoe healing? You obviously haven't paid any attention to the current meta where Soldier is the second healer a lot of the time.
You have to look at it from their main function, and the main function of symmetra is not to heal up the team, just as it's not Thorbjørn What does "main function" even mean? What's Zenyatta's main function? His healing is weaker than the others. His damage is worse than (most) other offence heroes. So I guess his main function is damage boosting, but I don't see you giving him flack for not being a support.
Or maybe "main function" is a meaningless term and you need to evaluate heroes as a whole.
Let's put it another way: If you choose symmetra instead of another healer, you now have two options: Lucio for aoe heal, which is needed if you want to keep most of your team topped up, or Ana, to keep your tanks alive as they sustain large amount of damage. Lucio can't keep tanks alive, and Ana can't focus on the entire team. Symmetra can't do either. Ana's healing is enough to heal everyone between fights. And tanks in the middle of fights.
So you treat shield generator as a half-as-good AoE heal in fights, and abuse the fact that you have higher damage and mini-Reinhardt shield that the enemy team doesn't have. No, it's not universal setup, but neither is anything else.
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On January 21 2017 07:21 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2017 06:02 Excludos wrote:On January 21 2017 05:41 WolfintheSheep wrote:On January 16 2017 22:32 Excludos wrote:On January 16 2017 12:46 Eppa! wrote: Symm is so much better with 1 healer? Would you swap a healer for Thorbjörn by any chance? Her job is much close to what he does than any of the supports. Her only way of "supporting the team" on the first point is through the teleport, which doesn't do such a good job if everyone on the enemy team is still alive as they push in because your team doesn't have enough healing. You're thinking of healing in terms of glowy yellow lights and not game mechanics. There's no functional difference between having 75 shields and an automatic 75 heal after taking 75 or more damage. No difference between max 75 shield regen and max 75 health regen when you're not taking damage. So how does Sym support? She keeps your team alive longer, same as any healer does. Granted, not as well as other supports do, but she also provides damage blocking and more damage than any other support. Basically Symmetra's role is to kill the enemy team faster than when you have a different support, and to keep your team alive longer than having only one support. Torb's armour packs do the same, except you really can't maintain them on your whole team. So answer is no, because he's worse at it, but yes if he was much better at dispensing armour. No, I am thinking about it in terms of game mechanics. Symmetra doesn't keep the team alive, she just gives them a tad more to live off of. If you ONLY take 75 damage, the difference is, as you say, nothing. [b]If you're, say, D'va, and you take 800 damage, the difference between 75 shield and getting constantly healed you will find is HUGE. Symmetra isn't a healer, she's a defensive character with supporting traits Damage only matters if you die (or if, for some reason, you can't top up between fights). And that 75 shield is equivalent to 6 seconds of basic Lucio heal or 2 seconds of amped heal. If a Soldier takes 250 damage and lives, it doesn't matter if that extra 51 health came from healing or from shields. He's alive. Show nested quote +But a large portion of characters have supporting traits. Would you put soldier as a support because of his aoe healing? You obviously haven't paid any attention to the current meta where Soldier is the second healer a lot of the time. Show nested quote +You have to look at it from their main function, and the main function of symmetra is not to heal up the team, just as it's not Thorbjørn What does "main function" even mean? What's Zenyatta's main function? His healing is weaker than the others. His damage is worse than (most) other offence heroes. So I guess his main function is damage boosting, but I don't see you giving him flack for not being a support. Or maybe "main function" is a meaningless term and you need to evaluate heroes as a whole. Show nested quote +Let's put it another way: If you choose symmetra instead of another healer, you now have two options: Lucio for aoe heal, which is needed if you want to keep most of your team topped up, or Ana, to keep your tanks alive as they sustain large amount of damage. Lucio can't keep tanks alive, and Ana can't focus on the entire team. Symmetra can't do either. Ana's healing is enough to heal everyone between fights. And tanks in the middle of fights. So you treat shield generator as a half-as-good AoE heal in fights, and abuse the fact that you have higher damage and mini-Reinhardt shield that the enemy team doesn't have. No, it's not universal setup, but neither is anything else.
I don't even know what you're trying to argue at this point, you're all over the place with no real goal. Are you trying to argue that Symmetra is a valid pick instead of a healer? By all means go ahead. There is nothing that states you can't pick her instead of a healer. But you're going to have to play around the fact that you now have one less healer. You can have zero healers if you want to and still win if you're either much better than the opponent or they don't know how to play against it. But you're not looking at it from the perspective of SoloQ. You can't have grand strategies in SoloQ..you can barely have strategies at all besides trying to imitate the current meta with the picks. And if you swap out a healer for a symmetra, then you're going to get wrecked, because you simply will not have enough healing in fights. I don't care about "in between fights", you can all cuddle up to soldier and top up in between fights. The problem is during fights. And no healer, including Ana, can keep the whole team alive through sustained fire in the middle of a fight.
My main point was that Symmetra should be moved to defense because she doesn't heal, and people seems to think it's ok to just swap out a healer for symmetra since she's in the support category (and people are way too locked on categories to begin with). What you do in your 6 stack I don't care about. I just care about not dying as a Reinheart because someone thought the 75 extra shield (Which you won't have at the first point anyways) is somehow "healing".
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Would have to move Sombra and Soldier to support then. Would probably even help people understand how Sombra plays.
But currently you really don't want to have Symmetra moved to defense. Because you would end up with Symmetra + 2 healers alot on farpoints. As double support has become a norm. And there is a reason why tripple support is currently no option. And this would be like playing tripple support. Meanwhile solo support is a perfectly valid option.
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First game of Arcade in a while, getting flamed for playing off-meta hero before the match has even started. Why does everyone want every mode outside of Competitive to be Unranked Competitive?
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My 2 cents is that ppl play arcade for the lootbox, and you don't gain lootbox when you lose. i've seen way too much ppl act like it's competitive in mystery heroes just because they need a win for the 3 lb of the week..
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On January 25 2017 17:00 Yosheekee wrote: My 2 cents is that ppl play arcade for the lootbox, and you don't gain lootbox when you lose. i've seen way too much ppl act like it's competitive in mystery heroes just because they need a win for the 3 lb of the week.. And that it annoying the heck out of me. Just because I am not a player who plays Competitive, can't I try things that is not in the current meta
I am in general annoyed at the concept of a metagame in games. I fully support decisions that game developers do to make a game less metagamey, even small baby steps.
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I agree. They should either get rid of the 9 required acrade game for LB, or Make competitive give 3 LB per week as well.. And it's gonna be better any time soon, because of the new event..
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On January 25 2017 17:00 Yosheekee wrote: My 2 cents is that ppl play arcade for the lootbox, and you don't gain lootbox when you lose. i've seen way too much ppl act like it's competitive in mystery heroes just because they need a win for the 3 lb of the week..
The fact that you only gain lootboxes by winning is pretty retarded when you think about it. Some times people leave when they realise they're about to lose, so you enter a game and immediately lose, just wasting your times. Then there's the times where you can capture the flag to make it a draw..but why would you? You don't win anything. All you do is make your opponents also not win anything. And, of course, it makes the casual modes a lot less fun when you feel like you have to win to get anything out of it.
edit: Incidentally, I've lost 8 ctf games in a row now. Not feeling the fun here.
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On January 25 2017 21:57 Yosheekee wrote: I agree. They should either get rid of the 9 required acrade game for LB, or Make competitive give 3 LB per week as well.. And it's gonna be better any time soon, because of the new event.. In Hearthstone they have it so that three wins across any of the main modes gives you gold. I don't see why OW can't do something similar. If they don't, we might as well have all modes be variants of Unranked Competitive.
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The 3 loot boxes for Arcade are the only thing keeping Arcade from being a ghost town. Remember how dead Brawls were?
Nothing wrong with having an incentive to play non-standard modes, and nothing wrong with having an incentive to actually try in them. Can't make everything perfect for everyone, hence why the qq for Quick Play is the "lol its just quickplay" people, and the qq for Arcade is "so many tryhards".
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brawls were dead because QM was the fasted way to obtain boxes. So everyone got pulled into QM. Just like everyone got pulled out of QM, when there were exp farm brawls.
And don't give lootbox rewards for ranked, that would turn the lower levels into a true hell, with people going there for lootboxes haha.
Anyway don't play Mystery Heroes for lootboxes, it takes the longest time. The old Quickplay mode is the fastest.
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wasn't the roadhog hook suppose to be fixed? I just got pulled around 2 solid objects and a wall...
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On January 26 2017 03:17 WolfintheSheep wrote: The 3 loot boxes for Arcade are the only thing keeping Arcade from being a ghost town. Remember how dead Brawls were?
Nothing wrong with having an incentive to play non-standard modes, and nothing wrong with having an incentive to actually try in them. Can't make everything perfect for everyone, hence why the qq for Quick Play is the "lol its just quickplay" people, and the qq for Arcade is "so many tryhards".
Nothing wrong with incentives, the only issue is incentives to win, instead of just play.
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On January 26 2017 08:20 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2017 03:17 WolfintheSheep wrote: The 3 loot boxes for Arcade are the only thing keeping Arcade from being a ghost town. Remember how dead Brawls were?
Nothing wrong with having an incentive to play non-standard modes, and nothing wrong with having an incentive to actually try in them. Can't make everything perfect for everyone, hence why the qq for Quick Play is the "lol its just quickplay" people, and the qq for Arcade is "so many tryhards". Nothing wrong with incentives, the only issue is incentives to win, instead of just play. Again, then you just end up with people QQing about Arcade mode being full of idiots Mei-walling their own spawn or running melee Torb because "it's just Arcade mode".
Which, I mean, might be the environment you prefer, but it'll still piss off another section of the player base.
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I really thought Winston was going to get better now that triple tank is dead. Turns out I was wrong. There's never been this much damage in the air, and he dies immediately no matter what the fuck you try.
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who said tripple tank is dead. Quad tank just doesn't work anymore, because Hogg can't hook everyone anymore. I mean if you want to play Winston you need a Zarya ... and the general Rein and thats already 3 tanks again. Or the enemy has a Genji, which solves the high damage issue with the enemy team by itself.
On January 26 2017 08:08 Excludos wrote: wasn't the roadhog hook suppose to be fixed? I just got pulled around 2 solid objects and a wall...
If you don't move and the Hogg has vision of you it still works. Only other reason is high ping.
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On January 27 2017 05:25 FeyFey wrote:who said tripple tank is dead. Quad tank just doesn't work anymore, because Hogg can't hook everyone anymore. I mean if you want to play Winston you need a Zarya ... and the general Rein and thats already 3 tanks again. Or the enemy has a Genji, which solves the high damage issue with the enemy team by itself. Show nested quote +On January 26 2017 08:08 Excludos wrote: wasn't the roadhog hook suppose to be fixed? I just got pulled around 2 solid objects and a wall... If you don't move and the Hogg has vision of you it still works. Only other reason is high ping.
The roadhog was pushed by phara, but the hook didn't break even tho he got pushed behind a solid wall (and, like I said, the two solid objects between me and him on top of it). According to new hook rules, it should have broken. It did not. So unless he had like 1000 in ping, it's still bugged. It's much better than before, but I hear other people complaining as well. It went from consistently broken to inconsistently fixed.
Also, I should point out that you can play anything in this game. Stop saying things like "This combo can still win games even if it's not optimal". Yes, you can win games with 5 tanks if you're coordinated enough. That's not the point. The point is to play a combination that gives you an edge, and triple tank right now is nowhere near as good as it used to be exactly because what made it work in the first place, Roadhog's hook, can't be abused as much to get free kills.
What that means is that people are going to go back to the old 2-2-2 that was never not good to begin with, and is now even better, and thusly a lot more damage is going to be flying around. I thought Winston would be better because he'd have more targets for his canon, which really only works on squishies. but unfortunately the "jump in, shield, jump out as soon as you can" tactic doesn't work anymore because there's enough damage around to obliterate the shield in half a second. So while he's my favorite character play-wise, you have to be so careful with him not do die it's hard to do anything useful.
Not sure how I would buff him either. Even a small buff could make him incredibly powerful. But maybe more health on the shield would do it.
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On January 27 2017 05:32 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2017 05:25 FeyFey wrote:who said tripple tank is dead. Quad tank just doesn't work anymore, because Hogg can't hook everyone anymore. I mean if you want to play Winston you need a Zarya ... and the general Rein and thats already 3 tanks again. Or the enemy has a Genji, which solves the high damage issue with the enemy team by itself. On January 26 2017 08:08 Excludos wrote: wasn't the roadhog hook suppose to be fixed? I just got pulled around 2 solid objects and a wall... If you don't move and the Hogg has vision of you it still works. Only other reason is high ping. The roadhog was pushed by phara, but the hook didn't break even tho he got pushed behind a solid wall (and, like I said, the two solid objects between me and him on top of it). According to new hook rules, it should have broken. It did not. So unless he had like 1000 in ping, it's still bugged. It's much better than before, but I hear other people complaining as well. It went from consistently broken to inconsistently fixed. Also, I should point out that you can play anything in this game. Stop saying things like "This combo can still win games even if it's not optimal". Yes, you can win games with 5 tanks if you're coordinated enough. That's not the point. The point is to play a combination that gives you an edge, and triple tank right now is nowhere near as good as it used to be exactly because what made it work in the first place, Roadhog's hook, can't be abused as much to get free kills. What that means is that people are going to go back to the old 2-2-2 that was never not good to begin with, and is now even better, and thusly a lot more damage is going to be flying around. I thought Winston would be better because he'd have more targets for his canon, which really only works on squishies. but unfortunately the "jump in, shield, jump out as soon as you can" tactic doesn't work anymore because there's enough damage around to obliterate the shield in half a second. So while he's my favorite character play-wise, you have to be so careful with him not do die it's hard to do anything useful. Not sure how I would buff him either. Even a small buff could make him incredibly powerful. But maybe more health on the shield would do it. I would argue that Dva's nerf also helpled break up the quad tank meta. Trio tank still works though, which I think is acceptable.
Winston is viable, but like you said, you need to be careful when you dive in.
His shield doesn't absorb as much, and he needs another tank to dive in with him, or the entire team to dive together. A solo Winston diving in is deader than a dva or rein charging in. At least Dva and Rein have better dmg mitigation. Winston's mitigation is abysmal compared to his counter-parts.
With that said, I agree with most of what you're saying. I think 2-2-2 will make a comeback.
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