On May 02 2011 02:15 Elroi wrote:
Bisu's pvp used to be out of this world during his dominant period.
Bisu's pvp used to be out of this world during his dominant period.
we're talking about the present, not 2 years ago
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Cheeseburgered
United States716 Posts
On May 02 2011 02:15 Elroi wrote: Show nested quote + On May 02 2011 02:07 pvzvt wrote: pvt best tough consistency is with stork or at least was consistent in that department pvp horang 2for sure Bisu's pvp used to be out of this world during his dominant period. we're talking about the present, not 2 years ago | ||
Tempest[OEC]
United States417 Posts
On May 02 2011 03:19 Cheeseburgered wrote: Show nested quote + On May 02 2011 02:15 Elroi wrote: On May 02 2011 02:07 pvzvt wrote: pvt best tough consistency is with stork or at least was consistent in that department pvp horang 2for sure Bisu's pvp used to be out of this world during his dominant period. we're talking about the present, not 2 years ago Well currently Horang2's PvP is pretty good but Best also had (keyword "had") a beastly 17 game PvP win streak back in the day. Lol. | ||
ghrur
United States3785 Posts
On May 02 2011 02:20 Mortality wrote: Show nested quote + On May 02 2011 00:49 Mumei wrote: On May 02 2011 00:31 Mortality wrote:No. You must be new to watching progaming if you really think that. Do you mean relative to their time, or are you thinking of a Zerg player who you would pick over Jaedong in a match against a Terran player, if both players were at their peak? Relative to their time of course. Obviously a Zerg player at his peak back in 2006 or 2001 isn't as strong in absolute terms as any A-team progamer today. However, Jaedong has not even yet proved that his current ZvT is at its peak (relative to the competition) right now, let alone better than the past ZvT giants. Yes he's boasting high win percentages lately and his skill set is more well-rounded than ever, hence his consistency when facing strong but not superstar TvZers. But when you get down to it, he's been getting slapped silly by Flash and Light in his most recent battles against them. Group D was the first time he managed to overcome that in a long time now, but no matter how outstandingly awesome JD played, it was just one game. I'd really like to see a series before I jump to any such conclusions. Uhhh, he's only losing to Light in proleague, never in series play. So just one game applies to all those SWL/SPL games too. Series play, JD has never lost to light. To say he's getting slapped around is exaggerating it I think. | ||
Musou
1375 Posts
On May 02 2011 03:30 ghrur wrote: Show nested quote + On May 02 2011 02:20 Mortality wrote: On May 02 2011 00:49 Mumei wrote: On May 02 2011 00:31 Mortality wrote:No. You must be new to watching progaming if you really think that. Do you mean relative to their time, or are you thinking of a Zerg player who you would pick over Jaedong in a match against a Terran player, if both players were at their peak? Relative to their time of course. Obviously a Zerg player at his peak back in 2006 or 2001 isn't as strong in absolute terms as any A-team progamer today. However, Jaedong has not even yet proved that his current ZvT is at its peak (relative to the competition) right now, let alone better than the past ZvT giants. Yes he's boasting high win percentages lately and his skill set is more well-rounded than ever, hence his consistency when facing strong but not superstar TvZers. But when you get down to it, he's been getting slapped silly by Flash and Light in his most recent battles against them. Group D was the first time he managed to overcome that in a long time now, but no matter how outstandingly awesome JD played, it was just one game. I'd really like to see a series before I jump to any such conclusions. Uhhh, he's only losing to Light in proleague, never in series play. So just one game applies to all those SWL/SPL games too. Series play, JD has never lost to light. To say he's getting slapped around is exaggerating it I think. Agreed. Every single series he's played against Light has been ridiculously close. I think JD has the stronger mental mindset for series, but Light just has that knack for TvZ regardless of preparation, so JD's preparation allows him to take down Light, but not without a very difficult fight (2-1 in Ever2007 OSL, Batoo OSL, WCG2010 and 3-2 in Bigfile MSL). However, he has been getting slapped silly by Flash in all but their most recent battle. Up until the infamous Power Outage MSL, JD had been barely holding a winning record against Flash, but then Flash just made him look like any other generic zerg in their last few series. He looked quite dominant in the group D play, but part of it was Flash making uncharacteristic mistakes with his early bio force, similar to how he threw away the games in KAL OSL 1. I'd definitely like to see a JvF finals for this MSL with both players in top condition. | ||
xarthaz
1704 Posts
On May 02 2011 02:20 Mortality wrote: no one has ever been as high in ELO so on one has ever been as good as JD is now, relative to their own time of course. You can talk about past and present all you want, the fact is that JD is at an all time ZvT world record.Show nested quote + On May 02 2011 00:49 Mumei wrote: On May 02 2011 00:31 Mortality wrote:No. You must be new to watching progaming if you really think that. Do you mean relative to their time, or are you thinking of a Zerg player who you would pick over Jaedong in a match against a Terran player, if both players were at their peak? Relative to their time of course. Obviously a Zerg player at his peak back in 2006 or 2001 isn't as strong in absolute terms as any A-team progamer today. However, Jaedong has not even yet proved that his current ZvT is at its peak (relative to the competition) right now, let alone better than the past ZvT giants. Yes he's boasting high win percentages lately and his skill set is more well-rounded than ever, hence his consistency when facing strong but not superstar TvZers. But when you get down to it, he's been getting slapped silly by Flash and Light in his most recent battles against them. Group D was the first time he managed to overcome that in a long time now, but no matter how outstandingly awesome JD played, it was just one game. I'd really like to see a series before I jump to any such conclusions. Of course comparing JD to flash or light is a fallacy in the first place because those players are not ZvT players, hence they have no say in the ZvT top ranking. | ||
Elroi
Sweden5468 Posts
On May 02 2011 02:20 Mortality wrote: Show nested quote + On May 02 2011 00:49 Mumei wrote: On May 02 2011 00:31 Mortality wrote:No. You must be new to watching progaming if you really think that. Do you mean relative to their time, or are you thinking of a Zerg player who you would pick over Jaedong in a match against a Terran player, if both players were at their peak? Relative to their time of course. Obviously a Zerg player at his peak back in 2006 or 2001 isn't as strong in absolute terms as any A-team progamer today. However, Jaedong has not even yet proved that his current ZvT is at its peak (relative to the competition) right now, let alone better than the past ZvT giants. Yes he's boasting high win percentages lately and his skill set is more well-rounded than ever, hence his consistency when facing strong but not superstar TvZers. But when you get down to it, he's been getting slapped silly by Flash and Light in his most recent battles against them. Group D was the first time he managed to overcome that in a long time now, but no matter how outstandingly awesome JD played, it was just one game. I'd really like to see a series before I jump to any such conclusions. He played Flash and Light literally 20 times in a row (if you only count his vT) last season, of these games he won 10 on some of the worst maps I have ever seen for ZvT. (Sea said notably in an interview that those maps were impossible for zerg to win on if the terran player played correctly). Yes, Jaedong got beaten badly by Flash but Flash has the best TvZ in the history of the game, however you cut it. Who are those old zerg giants that are better than the tyrant? I think the only zerg that can compete with Jaedong in zvt (or in any match up) is Savior. It depends on how you see it: you would like to count only his mini slump in the beginning of this season (were he went something like 0-3 vs Flash and Light) but you don't want to concider his last games because they are too few. If you count further back or more recent games, Jaedong has the best or the second best zvt in the history of the game imo. | ||
Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On May 02 2011 06:31 Musou wrote: Show nested quote + On May 02 2011 03:30 ghrur wrote: On May 02 2011 02:20 Mortality wrote: On May 02 2011 00:49 Mumei wrote: On May 02 2011 00:31 Mortality wrote:No. You must be new to watching progaming if you really think that. Do you mean relative to their time, or are you thinking of a Zerg player who you would pick over Jaedong in a match against a Terran player, if both players were at their peak? Relative to their time of course. Obviously a Zerg player at his peak back in 2006 or 2001 isn't as strong in absolute terms as any A-team progamer today. However, Jaedong has not even yet proved that his current ZvT is at its peak (relative to the competition) right now, let alone better than the past ZvT giants. Yes he's boasting high win percentages lately and his skill set is more well-rounded than ever, hence his consistency when facing strong but not superstar TvZers. But when you get down to it, he's been getting slapped silly by Flash and Light in his most recent battles against them. Group D was the first time he managed to overcome that in a long time now, but no matter how outstandingly awesome JD played, it was just one game. I'd really like to see a series before I jump to any such conclusions. Uhhh, he's only losing to Light in proleague, never in series play. So just one game applies to all those SWL/SPL games too. Series play, JD has never lost to light. To say he's getting slapped around is exaggerating it I think. Agreed. Every single series he's played against Light has been ridiculously close. I think JD has the stronger mental mindset for series, but Light just has that knack for TvZ regardless of preparation, so JD's preparation allows him to take down Light, but not without a very difficult fight (2-1 in Ever2007 OSL, Batoo OSL, WCG2010 and 3-2 in Bigfile MSL). However, he has been getting slapped silly by Flash in all but their most recent battle. Up until the infamous Power Outage MSL, JD had been barely holding a winning record against Flash, but then Flash just made him look like any other generic zerg in their last few series. He looked quite dominant in the group D play, but part of it was Flash making uncharacteristic mistakes with his early bio force, similar to how he threw away the games in KAL OSL 1. I'd definitely like to see a JvF finals for this MSL with both players in top condition. Except that when "just one game" happens 3 times it's no longer "just one game." Does that make any sense? -_- And I already said that he looked great in his game against Flash in Group D but I want to see more of that level of play against S-class TvZers before I say that his TvZ is in the best shape of his career. | ||
Mumei
United States253 Posts
On May 02 2011 06:31 Musou wrote:Up until the infamous Power Outage MSL, JD had been barely holding a winning record against Flash Eh. I think that 14 - 9 through the NATE MSL is a decent lead, myself. | ||
xarthaz
1704 Posts
On May 02 2011 06:51 Mortality wrote: You can think whatever you like, however the most widely accepted statistical method of ELO confirms that JD at tthis point is the best ZvT player of all time, not only in absolute terms, but also in relative terms, as that is what ELO describes.Show nested quote + On May 02 2011 06:31 Musou wrote: On May 02 2011 03:30 ghrur wrote: On May 02 2011 02:20 Mortality wrote: On May 02 2011 00:49 Mumei wrote: On May 02 2011 00:31 Mortality wrote:No. You must be new to watching progaming if you really think that. Do you mean relative to their time, or are you thinking of a Zerg player who you would pick over Jaedong in a match against a Terran player, if both players were at their peak? Relative to their time of course. Obviously a Zerg player at his peak back in 2006 or 2001 isn't as strong in absolute terms as any A-team progamer today. However, Jaedong has not even yet proved that his current ZvT is at its peak (relative to the competition) right now, let alone better than the past ZvT giants. Yes he's boasting high win percentages lately and his skill set is more well-rounded than ever, hence his consistency when facing strong but not superstar TvZers. But when you get down to it, he's been getting slapped silly by Flash and Light in his most recent battles against them. Group D was the first time he managed to overcome that in a long time now, but no matter how outstandingly awesome JD played, it was just one game. I'd really like to see a series before I jump to any such conclusions. Uhhh, he's only losing to Light in proleague, never in series play. So just one game applies to all those SWL/SPL games too. Series play, JD has never lost to light. To say he's getting slapped around is exaggerating it I think. Agreed. Every single series he's played against Light has been ridiculously close. I think JD has the stronger mental mindset for series, but Light just has that knack for TvZ regardless of preparation, so JD's preparation allows him to take down Light, but not without a very difficult fight (2-1 in Ever2007 OSL, Batoo OSL, WCG2010 and 3-2 in Bigfile MSL). However, he has been getting slapped silly by Flash in all but their most recent battle. Up until the infamous Power Outage MSL, JD had been barely holding a winning record against Flash, but then Flash just made him look like any other generic zerg in their last few series. He looked quite dominant in the group D play, but part of it was Flash making uncharacteristic mistakes with his early bio force, similar to how he threw away the games in KAL OSL 1. I'd definitely like to see a JvF finals for this MSL with both players in top condition. Except that when "just one game" happens 3 times it's no longer "just one game." Does that make any sense? -_- And I already said that he looked great in his game against Flash in Group D but I want to see more of that level of play against S-class TvZers before I say that his TvZ is in the best shape of his career. See for yourself: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/players/detailed_elo.php?historyStorageField={"DhtmlHistory_pageLoaded":true,"":{"tblt":"1526"},"tblt-1526-1-7-DESC":null}§ion=korean&race=Z#tblt-1469-1-5-DESC | ||
Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On May 02 2011 06:51 Elroi wrote: Show nested quote + On May 02 2011 02:20 Mortality wrote: On May 02 2011 00:49 Mumei wrote: On May 02 2011 00:31 Mortality wrote:No. You must be new to watching progaming if you really think that. Do you mean relative to their time, or are you thinking of a Zerg player who you would pick over Jaedong in a match against a Terran player, if both players were at their peak? Relative to their time of course. Obviously a Zerg player at his peak back in 2006 or 2001 isn't as strong in absolute terms as any A-team progamer today. However, Jaedong has not even yet proved that his current ZvT is at its peak (relative to the competition) right now, let alone better than the past ZvT giants. Yes he's boasting high win percentages lately and his skill set is more well-rounded than ever, hence his consistency when facing strong but not superstar TvZers. But when you get down to it, he's been getting slapped silly by Flash and Light in his most recent battles against them. Group D was the first time he managed to overcome that in a long time now, but no matter how outstandingly awesome JD played, it was just one game. I'd really like to see a series before I jump to any such conclusions. He played Flash and Light literally 20 times in a row (if you only count his vT) last season, of these games he won 10 on some of the worst maps I have ever seen for ZvT. (Sea said notably in an interview that those maps were impossible for zerg to win on if the terran player played correctly). Yes, Jaedong got beaten badly by Flash but Flash has the best TvZ in the history of the game, however you cut it. Who are those old zerg giants that are better than the tyrant? I think the only zerg that can compete with Jaedong in zvt (or in any match up) is Savior. It depends on how you see it: you would like to count only his mini slump in the beginning of this season (were he went something like 0-3 vs Flash and Light) but you don't want to concider his last games because they are too few. If you counte further back or more recent games, Jaedong has the best or the second best zvt in the history of the game imo. It's a lot more than one game that Jaedong has won. If it was Fantasy or Baby instead of Jaedong I bet you'd be all over the place now lol. Flash best TvZ ever? In an absolute sense, but in a relative sense I'd actually put him dead last among the bonjwas (that is to say, 4th best TvZ in history). The best ZvTer ever is still unambiguously Savior, who convincingly defeated the most fearsome TvZ line-up on the worst maps and changed the match-up more than any player since Yellow and more than any player that followed him. #2 is a toss up with Jaedong a top contender, but Yellow, July, and Gorush should not be counted out. I will count out Yarnc on the grounds that he impacted the match-up very little and never faced a top TvZer in bo5. And quit acting like I anti-fanboyishly hate Jaedong. That kind of fanboyish bullshit is ridiculous. Although I have acknowledged liking Fantasy more than TBLS, I have always been one of the first to be willing to toss him off the ranking when he under-performs. Back in December last year I took flak for saying that he shouldn't be on the January 2011 ranking and in case you've been following, This was not long after fantasy had ELO peaked. So who the fuck are you to criticize me when I've never seen you do anything but wank on Jaedong? I appreciate what these giants have done because I have been watching progaming from the beginning and I've seen the tremendous changes that have happened to this game and how it's played. In fact, one could argue that the greatest ZvTer ever is in fact not Savior or Jaedong, but Yellow. I do not think any Zerg player has done as much for that match-up as Yellow has. That's something that statistics and results simply cannot capture, but even if we look at statistics, Yellow sustained an incredibly high win-rate despite facing Boxer and Nada so many times, and not always on favorable maps. | ||
Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On May 02 2011 06:55 xarthaz wrote: Show nested quote + You can think whatever you like, however the most widely accepted statistical method of ELO confirms that JD at tthis point is the best ZvT player of all time, not only in absolute terms, but also in relative terms, as that is what ELO describes.On May 02 2011 06:51 Mortality wrote: On May 02 2011 06:31 Musou wrote: On May 02 2011 03:30 ghrur wrote: On May 02 2011 02:20 Mortality wrote: On May 02 2011 00:49 Mumei wrote: On May 02 2011 00:31 Mortality wrote:No. You must be new to watching progaming if you really think that. Do you mean relative to their time, or are you thinking of a Zerg player who you would pick over Jaedong in a match against a Terran player, if both players were at their peak? Relative to their time of course. Obviously a Zerg player at his peak back in 2006 or 2001 isn't as strong in absolute terms as any A-team progamer today. However, Jaedong has not even yet proved that his current ZvT is at its peak (relative to the competition) right now, let alone better than the past ZvT giants. Yes he's boasting high win percentages lately and his skill set is more well-rounded than ever, hence his consistency when facing strong but not superstar TvZers. But when you get down to it, he's been getting slapped silly by Flash and Light in his most recent battles against them. Group D was the first time he managed to overcome that in a long time now, but no matter how outstandingly awesome JD played, it was just one game. I'd really like to see a series before I jump to any such conclusions. Uhhh, he's only losing to Light in proleague, never in series play. So just one game applies to all those SWL/SPL games too. Series play, JD has never lost to light. To say he's getting slapped around is exaggerating it I think. Agreed. Every single series he's played against Light has been ridiculously close. I think JD has the stronger mental mindset for series, but Light just has that knack for TvZ regardless of preparation, so JD's preparation allows him to take down Light, but not without a very difficult fight (2-1 in Ever2007 OSL, Batoo OSL, WCG2010 and 3-2 in Bigfile MSL). However, he has been getting slapped silly by Flash in all but their most recent battle. Up until the infamous Power Outage MSL, JD had been barely holding a winning record against Flash, but then Flash just made him look like any other generic zerg in their last few series. He looked quite dominant in the group D play, but part of it was Flash making uncharacteristic mistakes with his early bio force, similar to how he threw away the games in KAL OSL 1. I'd definitely like to see a JvF finals for this MSL with both players in top condition. Except that when "just one game" happens 3 times it's no longer "just one game." Does that make any sense? -_- And I already said that he looked great in his game against Flash in Group D but I want to see more of that level of play against S-class TvZers before I say that his TvZ is in the best shape of his career. See for yourself: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/players/detailed_elo.php?historyStorageField={"DhtmlHistory_pageLoaded":true,"":{"tblt":"1526"},"tblt-1526-1-7-DESC":null}§ion=korean&race=Z#tblt-1469-1-5-DESC Firstly, I don't need to be told about ELO since I visit TLPD literally daily. Secondly, ELO is not an infallible measure of accomplishment from a purely statistical standpoint. ELO does a better job measuring skill under circumstances where a larger number of games are played against a more diverse set of opponents who have all been in the system long enough so that their ELO ratings give a somewhat accurate representation of their skill (e.g. Savior actually lost ELO points when he beat Iris and Hwasin in bo5's even though they were both S-class because neither of them had an ELO rating accurately reflecting their skill at that time). As quickly as SC metagame shifts today, things today are changing at a snails pace compared to how they used to. Thirdly, taking into account ELO inflation -- a phenomenon that has been well documented (roughly 30 points of inflation have occurred over time), Yellow is probably still #1. Fourthly, ELO does not measure -- CANNOT measure -- abstract notions about how a player has impacted a match-up. Make no mistake that Jaedong has done a lot, but Starcraft did not begin with Jaedong by any stretch of the imagination. | ||
Elroi
Sweden5468 Posts
On May 02 2011 07:14 Mortality wrote: Show nested quote + On May 02 2011 06:51 Elroi wrote: On May 02 2011 02:20 Mortality wrote: On May 02 2011 00:49 Mumei wrote: On May 02 2011 00:31 Mortality wrote:No. You must be new to watching progaming if you really think that. Do you mean relative to their time, or are you thinking of a Zerg player who you would pick over Jaedong in a match against a Terran player, if both players were at their peak? Relative to their time of course. Obviously a Zerg player at his peak back in 2006 or 2001 isn't as strong in absolute terms as any A-team progamer today. However, Jaedong has not even yet proved that his current ZvT is at its peak (relative to the competition) right now, let alone better than the past ZvT giants. Yes he's boasting high win percentages lately and his skill set is more well-rounded than ever, hence his consistency when facing strong but not superstar TvZers. But when you get down to it, he's been getting slapped silly by Flash and Light in his most recent battles against them. Group D was the first time he managed to overcome that in a long time now, but no matter how outstandingly awesome JD played, it was just one game. I'd really like to see a series before I jump to any such conclusions. He played Flash and Light literally 20 times in a row (if you only count his vT) last season, of these games he won 10 on some of the worst maps I have ever seen for ZvT. (Sea said notably in an interview that those maps were impossible for zerg to win on if the terran player played correctly). Yes, Jaedong got beaten badly by Flash but Flash has the best TvZ in the history of the game, however you cut it. Who are those old zerg giants that are better than the tyrant? I think the only zerg that can compete with Jaedong in zvt (or in any match up) is Savior. It depends on how you see it: you would like to count only his mini slump in the beginning of this season (were he went something like 0-3 vs Flash and Light) but you don't want to concider his last games because they are too few. If you counte further back or more recent games, Jaedong has the best or the second best zvt in the history of the game imo. It's a lot more than one game that Jaedong has won. If it was Fantasy or Baby instead of Jaedong I bet you'd be all over the place now lol. Flash best TvZ ever? In an absolute sense, but in a relative sense I'd actually put him dead last among the bonjwas (that is to say, 4th best TvZ in history). The best ZvTer ever is still unambiguously Savior, who convincingly defeated the most fearsome TvZ line-up on the worst maps and changed the match-up more than any player since Yellow and more than any player that followed him. #2 is a toss up with Jaedong a top contender, but Yellow, July, and Gorush should not be counted out. I will count out Yarnc on the grounds that he impacted the match-up very little and never faced a top TvZer in bo5. And quit acting like I anti-fanboyishly hate Jaedong. That kind of fanboyish bullshit is ridiculous. Although I have acknowledged liking Fantasy more than TBLS, I have always been one of the first to be willing to toss him off the ranking when he under-performs. Back in December last year I took flak for saying that he shouldn't be on the January 2011 ranking and in case you've been following, This was not long after fantasy had ELO peaked. So who the fuck are you to criticize me when I've never seen you do anything but wank on Jaedong? I appreciate what these giants have done because I have been watching progaming from the beginning and I've seen the tremendous changes that have happened to this game and how it's played. In fact, one could argue that the greatest ZvTer ever is in fact not Savior or Jaedong, but Yellow. I do not think any Zerg player has done as much for that match-up as Yellow has. That's something that statistics and results simply cannot capture, but even if we look at statistics, Yellow sustained an incredibly high win-rate despite facing Boxer and Nada so many times, and not always on favorable maps. You are right when you say that it is almost impossible to compare older players with newer ones. At least that is what you say whenever something indicates that the newer player has surpassed the older one. But you still claim that the older players were more dominant... Sure higher win percentage isn't everything: the game is more figured out now so it is also less volatile. The best are more dominant. But this also makes it harder for the younger players to change the meta game as much as the older ones. I'm sorry that I said that you would have reacted differently if it was Fantasy or Baby and not Jaedong: I actually edited that part out almost immediately after posting. You are usually fair and knowledgeable in your judgments. But you have an unpleasant habit of giving credit to some players while only using negative words. You wouldn’t say, for instance, that Yellow got “slapped silly” by Boxer. | ||
Mumei
United States253 Posts
On May 02 2011 07:14 Mortality wrote:Flash best TvZ ever? In an absolute sense, but in a relative sense I'd actually put him dead last among the bonjwas (that is to say, 4th best TvZ in history). The best ZvTer ever is still unambiguously Savior, who convincingly defeated the most fearsome TvZ line-up on the worst maps and changed the match-up more than any player since Yellow and more than any player that followed him. #2 is a toss up with Jaedong a top contender, but Yellow, July, and Gorush should not be counted out. I will count out Yarnc on the grounds that he impacted the match-up very little and never faced a top TvZer in bo5. Yeah, you're definitely using "best" differently than how I would use it. - when I use the term "best" I mean in absolute terms - if you have [Zerg] vs [Terran], and you were picking a Zerg player to play against the Terran opponent, without knowing who it was, who would you pick? You define "best" the way I define "greatest," I think. Going by your definition, I'd probably agree with you. I appreciate what these giants have done because I have been watching progaming from the beginning and I've seen the tremendous changes that have happened to this game and how it's played. In fact, one could argue that the greatest ZvTer ever is in fact not Savior or Jaedong, but Yellow. I do not think any Zerg player has done as much for that match-up as Yellow has. That's something that statistics and results simply cannot capture, but even if we look at statistics, Yellow sustained an incredibly high win-rate despite facing Boxer and Nada so many times, and not always on favorable maps. Yellow did amazingly in that respect - he still had a 60.59% record about four years into his career and 69.72% against Terrans besides Boxer (16 - 23), Nada (10 - 7), and iloveoov (1 - 4) - which is even more amazing when you think of the time period that took place in (January 2001 through December 2004, which meant that it was before a lot of developments in ZvT play.) | ||
Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On May 02 2011 07:45 Elroi wrote: You wouldn’t say, for instance, that Yellow got “slapped silly” by Boxer. Yes I would. Because he did. Although he did even up the score. Jaedong slapped Flash silly in Group D. And that's one of the main reasons for why JD is going to be #1 on this ranking. (Technically Bisu also slapped Flash silly, but Flash slapped him right back.) That doesn't change the fact that this was JD's first win over an S-class TvZer since the start of last season in October of last year (1-4 record IIRC without looking at TLPD). And while his win percentage may be higher if we only look at 2011, that's could just be because 2 of those losses happened last year. Changing the snapshot of time does not necessarily mean that anything has changed with the player. JD has to prove it. He's on the road to doing so. If we're talking best in absolute terms, then that basically boils down to "whoever is best right at this moment." Players don't usually get worse at this game. Rather, the competition catches up. That's why I never bother talking about best in absolute terms. In absolute terms, Yellow's ZvT today is light years beyond where it was back in 2001-2003 when he was at his most dominant. You probably wouldn't even rate Yellow as a top 20 ZvTer right now. | ||
TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
Back to matchups, I'd say Flash has the best matchup of any terran of any time because he's put up a career's worth of +70% winrate and during his bonjwa run he was clearly far, far above that statistic during his 2009-2010 era. And it's not like he wasn't playing top talent since he did to Jaedong what Nada did to Chojja. Jaedong clearly has the best ZvZ ever and is arguable with Savior's ZvT. I thought, for about half a year, his ZvP was right up there in unbeatability with Savior as well. Jaedong's clearly going to go down as more successful than Savior by the time his career is over with, though, so I'm not sure how well that translates, either. | ||
infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
Just by watching the games JD right now is playing the most impressive ZvT i've seen, it definitely feels like he reached a new level in it... putting aside statistics and just going by what we see in the games, thats how i feel about it. But hopefully we'll have a series of it against a top player to really see it. It's hard to compare Yellow to modern Starcraft considering how much it's advanced. It's definitely true that he seems to figure out 1 matchup at a time so i hope his other matchups have not suffered. edit: Saviors dominance was all about just how he felt unbeatable and peoples perception of him rather than just stats.. i think JD's stats have been superior for quite a long time. | ||
Mumei
United States253 Posts
On May 02 2011 09:32 TwoToneTerran wrote:Back to matchups, I'd say Flash has the best matchup of any terran of any time because he's put up a career's worth of +70% winrate and during his bonjwa run he was clearly far, far above that statistic during his 2009-2010 era. Flash's first standard league game was April 13, 2007. So starting from then: Wins Losses Year 1 being April 13, 2007 through April 13, 2008; Year 2 being April 13, 2008 through April 13, 2009, and so forth. His third and fourth years have been insanely impressive. And if you take snapshots, like between October 15, 2009 through May 5, 2010, when he won 82% of the 100 games he played, he looks even better. The only years from other players that really compare are Nada's first year (24 - 8; 75%) or iloveoov's first year (42 - 14; 75%). So yes. Far above that. | ||
TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
And I think that after his double title win against Jaedong, Flash did it more convincingly than any other player besides maaaaybe Nada, and even then I think Nada had an easier time at it considering how many fewer games they had to play back then. | ||
Gummy
United States2180 Posts
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VGhost
United States3602 Posts
On May 02 2011 09:57 Mumei wrote: Show nested quote + On May 02 2011 09:32 TwoToneTerran wrote:Back to matchups, I'd say Flash has the best matchup of any terran of any time because he's put up a career's worth of +70% winrate and during his bonjwa run he was clearly far, far above that statistic during his 2009-2010 era. Flash's first standard league game was April 13, 2007. So starting from then: Wins Losses Year 1 being April 13, 2007 through April 13, 2008; Year 2 being April 13, 2008 through April 13, 2009, and so forth. His third and fourth years have been insanely impressive. And if you take snapshots, like between October 15, 2009 through May 5, 2010, when he won 82% of the 100 games he played, he looks even better. The only years from other players that really compare are Nada's first year (24 - 8; 75%) or iloveoov's first year (42 - 14; 75%). So yes. Far above that. I used a slightly different metric looking at TLPD (the "all but special leagues" one) and compared our current top 12 ELO in terms of progress in career from year to year. Flash 64.42 69.80 76.43 76.92 (8-4) (Numbers in parentheses are record in current career year.) Things I noted especially: - Stork and Sea have been playing for ages. We're talking almost done 7 years for both players. And apart from Sea's 5th year slide, both have been really consistent. Which once again raises the question of when Sea will ever win a league. :/ (Or does it make Stork's win a fluke?) - We thought Bisu was slumping last year but what on earth happened to him in 2008? 2007 (his second year playing) - he beats sAviOr, wins 2 MSLs. Then he fell off the face of the planet until the next fall. - Flash is the only player here to have improved (by this metric) four consecutive years AND every year of his career. Can it possibly continue? Also, Stats is on the same path of continual improvement (though he's clearly not the same kind of prodigy). What's in the water in the KT house? - ZerO shows amazing play sometimes but maybe he's just not S-class good. Of the other players here his career so far looks most like Mind's, but without the starleague run. None of this actually affects this month's PR, of course, but it's an interesting comparison. | ||
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