Zergman – Your ZvZ has been strong for a while, and you’re finally showing the potential for ZvT competence—but I need to see more.
Bisu – Your play against Light was sloppy, sloppy, sloppy. You only won because Light has a habit of using really stupid builds at times. And I say this as someone with a passionate love for you.
Up – What the hell were you thinking? You had an strong economic advantage against Nada, and instead of just out-massing him, you decided to… to… waste all your money on missile turrets and battlecruisers? Get out of my sight.
FirebatHero – I like you—and you’re a pretty decent player—but you do not deserve your current spot in the OSL. Casy is going to dominate you.
Bifrost – You and I both know that the only reason I even mentioned you in this section of the Power Rankings is because of Desert Fox.
Iris – You are always warm, never hot, and your TvZ is god-awful. That display against Nal_Keke was pathetic.
Added because of SiZ.FaNtAsY's very reasonable request:
July - Your game against GoodFriend was the absolute worst play I have ever seen from a professional BW player. It left such a bad taste in my mouth that I only considered you very briefly for the #10 slot before saying, "I need more."
I understand if July doesn't make the list, but not even a "Close but no cigar"? He made it to MSL for next season I think, and he did really well in the Proleague finals, beating oov, xellos and dominating the wildcards, and he performed really well agaisnt casy too, but casy is a monster. I demand my fatzerg be at least in "Close but no cigar"!
A frustrating bottom 5 indeed. None of them are really deserving, but there isn't anyone better to pick. Nice list as always Etter, will write my thoughts on it later.
Used to be, back in the day, you needed to win more than your Dual group and two OSL group games to be recognized.
I mean, that's all he did right? You have to look at the quality of opposition.
Beating TT, JiHyun, Yellow[Arnc] (on Longinus 2!) and FireBatHero on an island map TvT. That does NOT deserve this kind of attention. Especially when done by a Terran. Come on Etter. He doesn't belong anywhere near that list.
There's been an UpMagic in every OSL since they switched to 24-players. A guy goes 3-0 in their group against lower opponents, and he gets bumped in the elimination tourneys against quality opposition. Think of Bisu from last OSL.
That's what I said.
But anyway, I love your comments as always etter, even though I seldom agree with the ranking. Great read.
On February 02 2007 19:45 [Carlodajin] wrote: AnyTime[gm] and JJu should be on the list...but for djetter they arent performing as expected T_T... I hope they are in the next power rank...
Do you understand what a power rank is at all lol?
Also- I'm glad Yarnc is in it, he deserves it, this list is about the hottest players at the moment (the past month) and he definitely is. I don't think he's that great either overall but this list is hottest in the last month and Yarnc definitely is. I said right from early on that Upmagic would be off the list. His second game against NaDa was pretty good but overall he's just not that good yet...not top 10 in the world good. I used to not like GGPlay but after watching him the past month I agree he is really really good and deserves his spot.
Overall I really really like your list. Saying the 6-10 spots don't deserve to be on the list just proves how far ahead in talent savior and midas are, and less so the other 3 in the top 5. The bottom 5 do deserve their spots as there is no one better to get them. So nice list, if I had to make one it would look almost exactly like this and that's coming from someone that has watched every OSL and MSL game from the past month; I haven't watched every proleague game but I still pretty much know how everyone is doing.
On February 02 2007 20:25 Mirage wrote: Anytime[gm] should be up there :D also july should not being on the close but no cigar...That game vs. goodfriend was horrible.
July did pretty well against Casy and at least made the 16ro of OSL. What has Anytime done lately? Nothing.
I think UpMagic and Hwasin both showed that they just arent up to the level of the rest of the top class pros. UpMagic just cant play a long game too well imo, dude comes up with nice early play but that can only work for so long. And I found it extremely symbolic that the 3rd game of his BO3 vs Nada was on Arkanoid, a map where he simply cannot do something too cheesy. He still tried but;]
Anytime is a joke. When was the last time he won a game? Game 4 vs NaDa? lol -_-;;
OH no wait he won ONE game vs darkelf but he got stomped anyways.
No BoxeR? Yeah, OK, so one game, but it was such an ART game. fake yellow is only on there because of two games, and BoxeR's one game was more artsy than those 2 combined anyways. And BoxeR has gotten so little practise! s2 at least a close, no cigar ^^
Yeah, GGPlay has pretty game, but he was booted out of the only league he was in by FireBatHero, who took him apart. Between those two players, they are only playing in the one league, and FBH > GGPlay. That stupid zergs record from LAST YEAR shouldnt matter, all that should matter is that you have a bias against terrn players because of the maps, and FBH >>> GGPlay all day long. There are no other results that can sway the vote.
Also, what the hell is wrong with Iris, except that he is beating everyone he faces? That MINOR LeAGUE series against a lucky mustashioed keke doesnt matter, this man is going prime time in the OSL, and that should count. More that Light anyways. This shouldnt be on his percieved skill, it should be on his results, and a 2-0 RAPING of gf is a good result.
Lastly, Iris and Zergman are going at it in the OSL. I think Zergman wil take the bo3 series, but whoever wins better be on your list next month etter.
On February 02 2007 22:20 Manifesto7 wrote: What the hell?
Yeah, GGPlay has pretty game, but he was booted out of the only league he was in by FireBatHero, who took him apart. Between those two players, they are only playing in the one league, and FBH > GGPlay. That stupid zergs record from LAST YEAR shouldnt matter, all that should matter is that you have a bias against terrn players because of the maps, and FBH >>> GGPlay all day long. There are no other results that can sway the vote.
Also, what the hell is wrong with Iris, except that he is beating everyone he faces? That MINOR LeAGUE series against a lucky mustashioed keke doesnt matter, this man is going prime time in the OSL, and that should count. More that Light anyways. This shouldnt be on his percieved skill, it should be on his results, and a 2-0 RAPING of gf is a good result.
Lastly, Iris and Zergman are going at it in the OSL. I think Zergman wil take the bo3 series, but whoever wins better be on your list next month etter.
I have a personal grudge against GGplay, so I don't want to argue against you there.
But Iris? Are you serious? His TvZ is the worst I've seen from a Top level Terran...ever. Bar none. Doggi is his daddy in TvZ. This is how pathetic it is. Fine, the games against Keke were in a minor league, but are you implying that he could beat an OSL Zerg in a series? No chance in hell.
I can't stand Iris. The fact that he's #4 Kespa is a damn joke. He's the Silver of Terran's. As soon as he runs out of TvT MUs he'll be a walk over for his first Z or P (who am I kidding, there are non) opponent.
Iris is a complete shmuck. Stealing 1 off games in group stages from random smatterings of Zergs doesn't mean shit to me.
Bottom line, when you need to mention 2-0ing GF as the big thing a player has done this month, it's obvious why he doesn't deserve a spot.
GGplay really should have dropped off though Etter. I know you like him, but he's blown it at almost every opportunity he's gotten in the past month. Maps or not, the guy has been playing like poop in comparison to his other top Zerg counterparts. They have the same map pool as him, so that should be the bar.
Iris is very capable TvP. He can play like shit at times (ie. vs Bisu in MSL), yes, but he also has nice games in the mu (vs Bisu in Proleague for instance).
His TvZ is bad, but not as bad as you make it out to be. And you can't compare him to Silver, because his TvT is brilliant, while Silver's ZvP isn't.
Edit: I'm one of GGPlay's biggest fans on here, but I have to admit, including him in this power rank is very generous of Etter.
Anytime definitely can't be on this list. Scrubbing out of the OSL 0-3 is one thing but losing a bo3 to Darkelf[s.sir] on nice PvT maps is inexcusable.
Mana was comparing Iris to Silver, because they have both have one matchup in which they win (TvT for Iris, ZvP for Silver). The difference is, Iris is one of the very best if not the best TvT players in the world, while Silver is alright ZvP, but not brilliant.
mm Swap light with iris and i think this list, sadly is correct ;;
power rank must be hard during the PL off-season, players like pusan who didnt make the leagues for some slump or some reason (ie group of death) dont get to showcase any games oh well
On February 02 2007 22:20 Manifesto7 wrote: What the hell?
Yeah, GGPlay has pretty game, but he was booted out of the only league he was in by FireBatHero, who took him apart. Between those two players, they are only playing in the one league, and FBH > GGPlay. That stupid zergs record from LAST YEAR shouldnt matter, all that should matter is that you have a bias against terrn players because of the maps, and FBH >>> GGPlay all day long. There are no other results that can sway the vote.
Also, what the hell is wrong with Iris, except that he is beating everyone he faces? That MINOR LeAGUE series against a lucky mustashioed keke doesnt matter, this man is going prime time in the OSL, and that should count. More that Light anyways. This shouldnt be on his percieved skill, it should be on his results, and a 2-0 RAPING of gf is a good result.
Lastly, Iris and Zergman are going at it in the OSL. I think Zergman wil take the bo3 series, but whoever wins better be on your list next month etter.
I have a personal grudge against GGplay, so I don't want to argue against you there.
But Iris? Are you serious? His TvZ is the worst I've seen from a Top level Terran...ever. Bar none. Doggi is his daddy in TvZ. This is how pathetic it is. Fine, the games against Keke were in a minor league, but are you implying that he could beat an OSL Zerg in a series? No chance in hell.
I can't stand Iris. The fact that he's #4 Kespa is a damn joke. He's the Silver of Terran's. As soon as he runs out of TvT MUs he'll be a walk over for his first Z or P (who am I kidding, there are non) opponent.
Iris is a complete shmuck. Stealing 1 off games in group stages from random smatterings of Zergs doesn't mean shit to me.
Bottom line, when you need to mention 2-0ing GF as the big thing a player has done this month, it's obvious why he doesn't deserve a spot.
GGplay really should have dropped off though Etter. I know you like him, but he's blown it at almost every opportunity he's gotten in the past month. Maps or not, the guy has been playing like poop in comparison to his other top Zerg counterparts. They have the same map pool as him, so that should be the bar.
With posts like this your're basically making a fool of yourself.
Dude, Iris was fucking leveled by KeKe, and winning your best MU in the OSL, especially aganst GF, should not give you a spot when your play has never been exhilarating.
Ok, I can see your reasons for everyone else on this list. But GGPlay?? Give me a break. Maps or not, Zergman and Yarnc put up a far better performance, against MUCH better TvZs then FBH.
The mere fact that GGPlay gave up SUCH a big lead (in the second game i believe?) shows how at the moment, he does not deserve to be on this list. Extremely poor and bias choice. You should have put Bisu, FBH or Zergman on the ten spot.
On February 03 2007 07:29 Myxomatosis wrote: Dude, Iris was fucking leveled by KeKe, and winning your best MU in the OSL, especially aganst GF, should not give you a spot when your play has never been exhilarating.
Ok, I can see your reasons for everyone else on this list. But GGPlay?? Give me a break. Maps or not, Zergman and Yarnc put up a far better performance, against MUCH better TvZs then FBH.
The mere fact that GGPlay gave up SUCH a big lead (in the second game i believe?) shows how at the moment, he does not deserve to be on this list. Extremely poor and bias choice. You should have put Bisu, FBH or Zergman on the ten spot.
If you watch GGPlay's performance during games even when he loses his play may be better than Zergman, FBH, or Bisu. After watching the games he's played the past month he looks like he deserves to be on the top 10 to me. He has the skill, just not the results. The three you mentioned have been getting the results but I argue GGPlay has higher skill. I think this is where the biggest argument for this list has always come from, can someone who loses but plays great be higher than someone that wins but doesn't play as good? Etter has made this clear from the start putting Anytime over Nada that he values skill more than results I think. The problem is skill can be really subjective. But it makes for good arguments.
On February 02 2007 22:20 Manifesto7 wrote: What the hell?
Yeah, GGPlay has pretty game, but he was booted out of the only league he was in by FireBatHero, who took him apart. Between those two players, they are only playing in the one league, and FBH > GGPlay. That stupid zergs record from LAST YEAR shouldnt matter, all that should matter is that you have a bias against terrn players because of the maps, and FBH >>> GGPlay all day long. There are no other results that can sway the vote.
Also, what the hell is wrong with Iris, except that he is beating everyone he faces? That MINOR LeAGUE series against a lucky mustashioed keke doesnt matter, this man is going prime time in the OSL, and that should count. More that Light anyways. This shouldnt be on his percieved skill, it should be on his results, and a 2-0 RAPING of gf is a good result.
Lastly, Iris and Zergman are going at it in the OSL. I think Zergman wil take the bo3 series, but whoever wins better be on your list next month etter.
I have a personal grudge against GGplay, so I don't want to argue against you there.
But Iris? Are you serious? His TvZ is the worst I've seen from a Top level Terran...ever. Bar none. Doggi is his daddy in TvZ. This is how pathetic it is. Fine, the games against Keke were in a minor league, but are you implying that he could beat an OSL Zerg in a series? No chance in hell.
I can't stand Iris. The fact that he's #4 Kespa is a damn joke. He's the Silver of Terran's. As soon as he runs out of TvT MUs he'll be a walk over for his first Z or P (who am I kidding, there are non) opponent.
Iris is a complete shmuck. Stealing 1 off games in group stages from random smatterings of Zergs doesn't mean shit to me.
Bottom line, when you need to mention 2-0ing GF as the big thing a player has done this month, it's obvious why he doesn't deserve a spot.
GGplay really should have dropped off though Etter. I know you like him, but he's blown it at almost every opportunity he's gotten in the past month. Maps or not, the guy has been playing like poop in comparison to his other top Zerg counterparts. They have the same map pool as him, so that should be the bar.
With posts like this your're basically making a fool of yourself.
Perhaps you'de like to enlighten me to Iris' TvZ acheivements.
His TvZ is a joke and I stand behind that. Right now he's facing Zergman (who has shown a ton of weak ZvT in the past) in a bo3 on maps that are quite imbalanced.
When he get's 0-2ed, I'll ask you again why you think Iris' TvZ is worth mentioning at all when discussing professionals.
Iris is still pretty good at TvP though. Beating Bisu isn't any small feat
And will people get off of Yarnc fucking dick. Jeez we know he used Yellow's name in the past. That "o he's fake yellow I hate him" bullshit is FUCKING OLD! OK WE GET IT! God I hate morons who run a simple joke/statement into the fucking ground. Asshats.
I agree with most of Etter's analysis. This time it was hard simply because the bottom 5 were really anyone's picks.
Our top 4, maybe even top 5 were dead on for the same reasons. Much is ridiculous hot, Casy is the best next to Midas and Savior.. and I made up a slot for Ra so he couldn't be #5. lol -_-;; I think Nada got a very deserving spot around the bottom, afterall, OSL win + qualifying so far is VERY nice despite my grudge against it. His games haven't been the best, but Nada's winning after another long hard tournament was won. Yarc... Etter and I disagreed with before, but I promised man, I said the kid had potential and I love him. He's reminding me why he's one of the best Zergs and ZvT's around. His ZvZ is LEAPS better now and his ZvP is still hit and miss at times. Still, I like how etter handled Yarc's rank.
Etter likes Light, I do not. Hwasin's MSL has been decent. and GGplay... hmm... I dunno about #10, but there are so many possible #10's.
Any of the bottom 3 on the list could be a #10, July could be #10, but Casy beat him at his own game, Bisu could, Zergman could... but GGPlay did barely lose to FBH.. fuckn 12 v3.
On February 02 2007 22:20 Manifesto7 wrote: What the hell?
Yeah, GGPlay has pretty game, but he was booted out of the only league he was in by FireBatHero, who took him apart. Between those two players, they are only playing in the one league, and FBH > GGPlay. That stupid zergs record from LAST YEAR shouldnt matter, all that should matter is that you have a bias against terrn players because of the maps, and FBH >>> GGPlay all day long. There are no other results that can sway the vote.
Also, what the hell is wrong with Iris, except that he is beating everyone he faces? That MINOR LeAGUE series against a lucky mustashioed keke doesnt matter, this man is going prime time in the OSL, and that should count. More that Light anyways. This shouldnt be on his percieved skill, it should be on his results, and a 2-0 RAPING of gf is a good result.
Lastly, Iris and Zergman are going at it in the OSL. I think Zergman wil take the bo3 series, but whoever wins better be on your list next month etter.
I have a personal grudge against GGplay, so I don't want to argue against you there.
But Iris? Are you serious? His TvZ is the worst I've seen from a Top level Terran...ever. Bar none. Doggi is his daddy in TvZ. This is how pathetic it is. Fine, the games against Keke were in a minor league, but are you implying that he could beat an OSL Zerg in a series? No chance in hell.
I can't stand Iris. The fact that he's #4 Kespa is a damn joke. He's the Silver of Terran's. As soon as he runs out of TvT MUs he'll be a walk over for his first Z or P (who am I kidding, there are non) opponent.
Iris is a complete shmuck. Stealing 1 off games in group stages from random smatterings of Zergs doesn't mean shit to me.
Bottom line, when you need to mention 2-0ing GF as the big thing a player has done this month, it's obvious why he doesn't deserve a spot.
GGplay really should have dropped off though Etter. I know you like him, but he's blown it at almost every opportunity he's gotten in the past month. Maps or not, the guy has been playing like poop in comparison to his other top Zerg counterparts. They have the same map pool as him, so that should be the bar.
With posts like this your're basically making a fool of yourself.
Perhaps you'de like to enlighten me to Iris' TvZ acheivements.
His TvZ is a joke and I stand behind that. Right now he's facing Zergman (who has shown a ton of weak ZvT in the past) in a bo3 on maps that are quite imbalanced.
When he get's 0-2ed, I'll ask you again why you think Iris' TvZ is worth mentioning at all when discussing professionals.
I'm talking about his TvP but his TvZ is not that bad as like to say on every occasion. Your exaggerating and "witty" comments when it comes to players skill are getting really annoying. You're forcing your views as the facts on every occasion.
Here's some facts. There won't be any protoss players for him to face when Savior kills Much. And Iris just got pwnraped by Keke 2-0 on RLT and Longinus in MBC Survivor League. If you watched those games you'd know Iris is a big dog against Zergman.
Added: For comparison, Nada is 5-3, and FirebatHero is 4-4--and they're both still in.
Nada is 6-3. 8 TvT and one TvP. Just watch all the hell loose on the first zerg he meets, fake yellow. And Nada is 4-1 in MBC cycle. And for the January Nada is 5-1 in OSL and 2-0 in MBC - 87,5 %! Find me one person who thinks 7-1 is a "a combination of maps and good luck" And what "a combination of maps" when all 6 games for January in OSL were mirror TvT?
The problem is, DJEtter, is that if you allow these extenuating circumstances to play a role (he only had TvT on bad maps, he's good in other matchups) then you run the big risk of injecting your own personal bias into the rankings.
Also, Yarnc is so much more impressive than Hwasin
The Power Rank is full of bias, I don't even know where to begin, but I'll try.
Midas is ranked at #2 even though he has been eliminated by Savior in ro16. Your reasoning would be he played well, even taking a game off of Savior. He would have had good odds of making it through had it been anyone else but Savior. What's so ridiculous here is that in the first Power Ranking, Nal_rA was basically in the same situation. He would have had good odds of making it through and even win the whole MSL tournament had it been anyone else but Savior he had to face in a bo5. And even in his series vs Savior he took a game off of him in what many called the game of the year. rA's win vs Savior was even more brilliant than Midas's. But you never even mentioned about this at all. When a player you hate lose, you do not seem to take into account the quality of his opponent, but do when it's with a player you like.
Lets talk about YellOw[ArnC]. His win vs oov (a slumping oov also) was enough for him to be at #7. He belongs at this spot solely because of one matchup only: his ZvT. His other two matchups are subpar, but it's okay to you. Yet, back 2 months ago, Silver was in the same situation, the only difference was instead of ZvT, he excelled in ZvP. He dominated not just one, but four top Ps at the time: Pusan, Nal_rA, Kingdom, Daezang. Silver's other two matchups are also subpar like Yellow is (though his ZvZ isn't anything bad). But he never made the list at all. When a player you hate excels in one matchup, you claim: Try doing something other than cherry-picking your way into an MSL final by winning at your only competent matchup. but when it's a player you like who excels in one matchup, you praise him passionately with a #7 on the list.
Much won over Gorush, and everybody knows Gorush's ZvP has been slumping heavily for a while now. But your only comments are: His games against GoRush were both stylish and dominant
But what happens when a player you hate beats a slumping player? Ra’s had some really good luck lately, though, with a list of cream-puff opponents in the MSL (Bifrost sucks and Xellos is slumping—again).
When a player you like beats another player that's slumping, you never seem to consider it. Yet, when a player you hate beats another player that's slumping, you definitely do.
Also, I don't agree that Xellos is slumping, and I think that your statement that Xellos is slumping is just a statement made from bias due to your dislike of rA in order to discredit him as much as possible to justify the lowest spot on your top 5 list.
You really seem to consider a lot of things to justify stuff for players your like, while you never do with someone you hate. For example, when Light lost 80% of his TvTs and is eliminated, you said that he was eliminated because of bad luck having to play his worst matchup. If Light had better luck he would have gotten better matchups and probably advanced further. However, when a player you don't like, such as Silver, who actually did had better luck by getting the right matchups that you had hoped Light had, you ended up claiming that his results are only due to luck by getting the right matchups, so it's not deserving of a spot on the list.
And GGPlay, I must say I can't fathom how much bias was behind placing him on the #10 spot when there are many others who are much more deserving. I'm not going to repeat anything that has been said before in this thread regarding why GGPlay is not deserving of this spot, so I'll say this: when a player you like did not advance through a league, you try to justify it with reasons such as bad luck, bad maps, tiny mistakes, even combinations of them all. But when a player you hate lose, regardless if there was a reason as glaringly obvious such as having to face Savior in a bo5, you never seem to consider it.
When GGPlay lose to FirebatHero, you justify it by saying: He was literally one attack away from going 2-0 against FirebatHero. Once the maps improve and the Proleague returns, GGPlay should be back in force.
But if it was Nal_rA who lost to FirebatHero in the same fashion, I'm more than fairly confident that you would have booted him off the list entirely with the reasoning that he couldn't even win vs a "cream-puff opponent." - or something similar to that.
Although you make good points, you miss the fact that Etter bases his list more on the way people play their games than on the actual results themselves. This ranking is something you'll never be able to agree with, for you believe statistics are of much more importance than anything else.
It's not an objective ranking, it's Etter's opinion, which is interesting because Etter is one of the most knowledgeable people here when it comes to progaming.
Midas is ranked at two (and noone except you disagrees with it), because it's clear when you watch his games that he's the only one who can truly compete with Savior, the only one nearly on his level.
Similar explanations could be made for most or all of your other points, no, they're not mathematically correct explanations, but they're good, and they're interesting.
The problem is is that the pro scene is so full of chance, and it's difficult to define who is precisely where in the Power Rankings. So unless you have clear-cut rules on how you make your decision, then the whole list is nothing more than a reflection of your 'gut feeling', which is susceptible to the fact that you simply have players you like more than others. Everyone does. So you ought to set down some rules:
* Are you taking into consideration how 'close' a game is? * Are you making allowances for players that are achieving their results only based on one matchup? * Are you factoring in imbalanced maps into consideration or do you accept that everyone plays imba maps? * Do you take "woulda-coulda-shoulda" into account? (Recall how you bumped down rA partly because he "shoulda" been eliminated had Boxer not gone into Air Force) * Would you ease up on an SKT1 player if they do poorly in one league but good in another, considering they can only practice for a single tournament?
On February 04 2007 00:06 Orome wrote: Although you make good points, you miss the fact that Etter bases his list more on the way people play their games than on the actual results themselves. This ranking is something you'll never be able to agree with, for you believe statistics are of much more importance than anything else.
It's not an objective ranking, it's Etter's opinion, which is interesting because Etter is one of the most knowledgeable people here when it comes to progaming.
Midas is ranked at two (and noone except you disagrees with it), because it's clear when you watch his games that he's the only one who can truly compete with Savior, the only one nearly on his level.
Similar explanations could be made for most or all of your other points, no, they're not mathematically correct explanations, but they're good, and they're interesting.
Never said we should only count actual results and not consider other aspects into determining who belongs in the list. My point is that Jetter considers these aspects only to selected players. There are reasonings given to justify weaknesses for players he likes. Now some of those reasonings may be accurate, that's true, but these same reasonings, apparently, are not applied to players he dislike who fall under the same situation. I have not agreed nor have I disagreed to Midas's #2 spot, I just cited it as example to examine the abundance amount of bias in his ranking that has been shown ever since the first list was created.
On February 04 2007 00:36 Orome wrote: Then you're right. It's horribly biased towards the players Etter thinks are good. That's what makes it an interesting ranking.
Well no, with the bias, it's just Etter's own personal soapbox that he stands on every month or so. I still don't understand why it's just one person's opinion. Pick another person who is knowledgeable about the pro scene, and have them debate it with rival power rankings [like ebert/roeper or something] and that would be more interesting.
I don't see what makes Etter more qualified to talk about progaming than other people on this forum O_Oi I'm sure there are more knowledgeable people. I appreciate the effort he puts into it, and it's less biased than it used to be. .shrug. I suppose the men in red wanted to have this, so it's here for better or for worse.
Okay guys, I'm in semi-total agreement with tfeign Every single one his points are valid, and well.. those issues are inevitable with one person solely in charge of the power ranks... i mean, id probably do the same if i were in charge (obviously id try to keep it to a minimum, like etter does (i think), but the moment anytime screwed up he'd be low on my list, if not off it) However, the problem with more than one person doing power ranks, is that eventually we'll simply end up with a re-hash of the KeSPA ratings etter's bias is one thing which adds debate, and discussion to each ranking. The first ever power rank was highly controversial, but that was good... it created a strong interest in these rankings. However, subsequent rankings have been more... "tame" or less controversial, which obviously means etter is excluding alot of bias from his rankings. I dont know what im trying to say here except, the more people we have doing this; the closer we get to KeSPA
On February 04 2007 01:35 Last Romantic wrote: I still don't understand why it's just one person's opinion. Pick another person who is knowledgeable about the pro scene, and have them debate it with rival power rankings [like ebert/roeper or something] and that would be more interesting.
Having several people do one is a bad idea because it gets tame and isn't opinionated anymore, making it uninteresting. Having two people do it would be an interesting, but it isn't in any way better than this.
I don't see what makes Etter more qualified to talk about progaming than other people on this forum O_Oi I'm sure there are more knowledgeable people.
No. There definitely are people comparable to Etter in knowledge, but none that would be more qualified for this.
Everyone on this forum seems to think they are top experts on Brood War, but they're not. Etter sticks out as someone who really is.
On February 04 2007 01:43 Plexa wrote: I dont know what im trying to say here except, the more people we have doing this; the closer we get to KeSPA
Kespa is an absolutely horrible ranking to evauluate how hot players are, and a power rank with say all the staff participating would look nothing like it.
Guys, it should be pretty obvious that my personal opinion is going to seep into these rankings. The list is partially subjective, meaning that, yeah, what I think about a given player will influence where he gets put. If I watch a player and am genuinely impressed with his current level of skill, I'll certainly overlook a loss or two, especially if there are extenuating circumstances. This doesn't necessarily mean that I "like" the player or that I'm letting the fact that I'm a fan get in the way of my objectivity. My favorite players are Anytime, Bisu, Pusan, July, Casy, and Reach. I'm a fan of those players. I root for them and find them entertaining. But only one of them is in the rankings. If I'd wanted to, I could have pretty easily found a way to justify putting Bisu and July in low slots, but I didn't, because I don't think they're playing all that well. Conversely, I don't find GGPlay particularly entertaining, but I have a high regard for his skill, and anyone who's actually watched his games would have a pretty hard time arguing that he's still in fantastic form.
As to how I'm able to overlook losses for highly skilled players, consider your own experiences with Brood War. Personally, I have lost to some horrible newbies because of dumb luck. It happens. I've won a lot of games for the same reason. Like ilnp said a long time ago, Rekrul is much better than him, but if the two were to play a bunch of games, it wouldn't take too long for ilnp to win one. Hell, it doesn't take me that long to win one. Fayth even managed to take a practice game off of Xellos. That's just the nature of BW. Games will play out differently based upon a lot of factors outside of player skill, so to put one's faith completely in the statistics is as ignorant as going entirely off of one's evaluation of player skill. You have to try to stike a happy medium between the two, and I feel like I do a pretty good job of that. Like I said in the news post, eventually I have to acquiesce to the statistics, but my job is not to overreact just because a player lost a few games in a month. If Savior loses his upcoming series against Much because Much uses some one-shot builds, should I honestly drop him from the #1 slot? Of course not.
Beyond all that, I only have a limited space in which to outline why a player is in his current position, meaning that my little paragraph of rationale is going to be superficial in nature; I have to omit facts, but that doesn't mean that I didn't consider them when formulating the list.
So to address tfeign, I have to say this: you raise a whole lot of issues, and maybe half of them have some degree of validity, but really, you seem to be criticizing the method much more than the finished product. Do you actually disagree with the majority of this month's Power Rankings? If you were in charge, who would make your list, and why? It's pretty easy to call the bicycle I built a piece of crap when yours is locked in your garage. ^^
There cant be an objective power raking list, thats done by one person. There can never be a ''right'' or ''wrong'' powerlist that is made by one person. A poll or whatever would make it even more unaccurate.
Everyone has his favourites and the gamer he hates.. I think its useless to argue about the ranking, because it's made by one person and it cant be objective..
I just dont understand why Nal_rA is put above NaDa. Tell me where NaDa and Nal_rA are right now in the tournaments, plz. And tell me how there last 10 games went and then i want to know why NaDa is 9 and Nal_rA 5.
Evryone likes these.. and dislike those.. you probably see.. i like NaDa's play..
But you did like anytimes. And its funny you even stated it, because there was this weird discussion where many people and i think you , too ( DJES) said anytime would have deserved it, he played better blala.. blala.. Who just couldnt accept the fact anytime did a big mistake in game 5 and the games before one of the two always won in an quite amazing way... whatever.. this is old stuff.. just to round up my post.. its a bit problematic if one person makes these rankings.. but if there were more it wouldnt help that much.
Pretty cool would actually be : 10 very capable people who follow the pro gaming circuit very very closely could make there personal top 10 and ouf of these 10 top 10's u make a single top 10, which would make the ranking a bit more objective.. and if the people really know something about today's pro gamers.. it would be much better , imho = )
Lastly, Iris and Zergman are going at it in the OSL. I think Zergman wil take the bo3 series, but whoever wins better be on your list next month etter.
On February 04 2007 03:05 DJEtterStyle wrote: So to address tfeign, I have to say this: you raise a whole lot of issues, and maybe half of them have some degree of validity, but really, you seem to be criticizing the method much more than the finished product. Do you actually disagree with the majority of this month's Power Rankings? If you were in charge, who would make your list, and why? It's pretty easy to call the bicycle I built a piece of crap when yours is locked in your garage. ^^
That's what I'd want to see. He's claiming bias on something that is, well, partially opinionated to begin with. Any single person here could make a list of their top 10 players, and chances are, very few, if any, of those lists will be identical. However, I believe Etter comes the closest to making a list that many of us can agree upon for the most part. Sure, we'd all like to tweak it a tad bit, swapping this player for that, but at the end of the day, I find Etter's list to be pretty accurate, especially when you read his reasoning behind most the choices.
To that end, yes, tfeign, I would like to see you come up with your own list with your own rationale, and lets see how well it's received.
Come on people, we have this damn debate every power ranking. And that's what makes it so interesting. ^_^
PS. - Anyone else find it ironic that tfeign is complaining of bias? Do I REALLY need to bring up Chojja? And no, that's not a low blow btw, that's me questioning your credibility based on past experience. The power ranks are supposed to be subjective to a degree - if you go by anything else, you end up making misguided claims based purely on numbers rather than other factors... which leads to you thinking Chojja is going to stomp Casy, when everyone else already knew it was the other way around. Don't get me wrong tfeign, I'm huge fan of statistics, but the problem is, you seem to have no idea how to read into them... you're supposed to use them to help infer a conclusion, not base it solely on 'em.
See, the problem, DJE, isn't that you are are inserting personal opinion. There is a difference between a personal opinion list and a biased list. One needn't rely entirely on statistics and instead still have that 'feel' for how good a player is - without being biased.
The difference is that you are allowing your favorite players some slack; you are biased against players you are not a fan of and favor players you like. This isn't a matter of interpreting results differently or inferring different things from the results, it is selectively interpreting certain results to like certain players.
As to how I'm able to overlook losses for highly skilled players, consider your own experiences with Brood War. Personally, I have lost to some horrible newbies because of dumb luck. It happens. I've won a lot of games for the same reason. Like ilnp said a long time ago, Rekrul is much better than him, but if the two were to play a bunch of games, it wouldn't take too long for ilnp to win one. Hell, it doesn't take me that long to win one. Fayth even managed to take a practice game off of Xellos. That's just the nature of BW. Games will play out differently based upon a lot of factors outside of player skill, so to put one's faith completely in the statistics is as ignorant as going entirely off of one's evaluation of player skill. You have to try to stike a happy medium between the two, and I feel like I do a pretty good job of that. Like I said in the news post, eventually I have to acquiesce to the statistics, but my job is not to overreact just because a player lost a few games in a month. If Savior loses his upcoming series against Much because Much uses some one-shot builds, should I honestly drop him from the #1 slot? Of course not.
Problem is, almost every loss can be interpreted to be a product of dumb luck. Whenever I lose a BW game, I too think to myself "man i probably could have had that." almost every game. The only time when I can't is when they are so much better than me that there is really no chance for me to have won - but such huge skill differentials don't exist in Korea.
So when every game can be considered like that, it's misleading and unfair to consider it only for certain players in certain games, and not every player in every game.
Moreover, what appears to be a one-sided blowout could really be the product of a very small mistake early on; what appears to be a very close ZvZ game could very well have long ago been decided by an extra drone and really have been a clear victory not in doubt at all.
So for example:
He was literally one attack away from going 2-0 against FirebatHero.
That's not a product of bad luck. That's just GGPlay not being skilled enough to put it away.
I’m still not willing to give up on GGPlay. He had the second highest winning percentage of 2006 (behind only Savior)
And Boxer had the highest winning percentage of 2001; but if Power Rankings are how good a person is now, then I think that there is no rational way anyone could say GGPlay is the 10th best player in the world right now.
Zergman – Your ZvZ has been strong for a while, and you’re finally showing the potential for ZvT competence—but I need to see more.
He 2-0ed the number 6 player in the world and 3rd best Terran, according to you. How can he be "just showing potential" for ZvT competence?
I agree with almost all of your list. I just don't think there's any reasonable basis for some of your decisions, and I think you can make your job a lot easier if you clearly define "extenuating circumstances". Obviously to some extent you have to make a subjective decision, but at the very least you can outline whether or not you will consider map imbalance, closeness of games, strength of opponent, and dumb luck. And I'm curious how long are you going to leave Midas at number 2? He deserves the spot right now, but even though he won't actually play any worse between now and OSL finals, and no one else still might be able to beat him, it is clearly insane to put him at number 2 ahead of the eventual OSL semi-finalists/finalists.
Because at the point at which you aren't saying "This is a list of players I happen to like" and at least ascribe some objectiveness into it, based on statistics, you have to either choose to never consider maps/luck/how close a game was for any player or always consider it for every player.
Kids, kids... The whole point of the power ranking is that it's based on DJ's very informed opinion. That's what power rank is.
The feature is for us to discuss players and show OUR opinions too. Not bitch about it and cry because the guy with the soap box doesn't agree with you.
Stop being whiney bitches and share your opinions, laugh, dog the other people here in a light hearted way about their picks. Don't take it so damn seriously for goodness sake.
I think anyone that starts bitching about the list should have their own top 10 list at the end of their post (with explanations would be nice). I already said I pretty much agree with this list but maybe I'll make my own later when I have the time.
Here, Magic Phil, I think justifying Ra over Nada on the list is pretty easy. Nada, Wild Card, barely lived, had a rought TvT with Donger before he barely qualified on Arkanoid. His games vs Upmagic were close, and many agreed he was as likely to lose as he was to win. His groups weren't too hard, Oov, Much, Donger, Him, but he barely qualified then beat down Up for first round. Ra has made the millionth semi in a row for him, beat Canata, Bisu, Xellos, and Bifrost. The man is undefeated, UNDEFEATED, cept vs Savior so far in MSL. I mean... duh? And He's poised to beat Bisu and take on Savior for ANOTHER PvZ final hopelessly... but honestly, if it wasn't for Ra, would we as Toss users ever have hope? Maybe Savior will lose to Much or Ra T.T
Also, to defend Etter, I wanna point to "little things" in a person's game and togetherness and other things that effect thoughts into ranking them. How often do you see Savior smile when he wins. Never? Did you see Savior when he beat Midas? He was smiling, VERY VERY content, and even put his face in his hands and was smiling.
When July and Casy played, Casy wrote a new page for terran tricks, playing the pimpest play in forever. People dismiss it but what was July gonna do? Run his lings in to scout and die before seeing a scv? Move the ovie in after it sees SCVs mining? I mean... that play.. SICK. Yarc's Muta's are Savior's Mutas. Sure it's his opinions, but consider the players on the list and why they are there. Based on their games and results, you can justify a lot of them. Even Hwasin has made MSL semis. Ra made it without losing cept to Savior. Midas is #2 because he is the world's best Terran who met the world's best Zerg and lost. Honestly... I dunno if Casy can beat Savior. I'd hope so, I believe so, but no matter how hot Casy's chances, I put him as even at best or a dog against Savior and Midas. If you watched Midas' games in group stages, and Savior's, and Casy's... no one has put on a show as dominating as these 3 besides maybe Much lately... I mean.. honestly, it's just true.
You can talk about bias and such, but make your own list and I bet you if it's taken with any seriousness it will look very similar to Etter's list. Maybe Chojja and Boxer will be #3 or something for others, but besides maybe Nada being higher, Light being replaced, GGplay being ousted by someone, I mean.. maybe an OSL 8 rounder shoulda been put into the top 10... but really.. is Zergman that hot?
#1 Savior No arguing that one. He just doesn't lose. #2 Midas Even if I do agree he's the 2nd strongest player right now, he blew it against Savior. I would rank him 3rd not 2nd. Casy deserves this spot right now even if he hasn't played ant TvP #3 Casy Ranked 2, jsut for his pimp move vs July ! (but 2nd or 3rd switched with Midas is only details) #4 Much He doesn't deserve this spot. Sure his last 2 games were nice but since the last Power Ranking he only lost games except for these 2. He lost in PL, He lost almost all his games in MSL and he lost vs Oov in OSL groups. I would see him 6th. #5 Ra Ok with me #6 Hwasin Seeing him crushed 2-0 in his best Mu by Zergman can't make him #6. And it's not his win vs Light (can't say he won, he just didn't play as bad) that will make up to it. He did pass his groups in OSL and is still qualified in MSL but he's just one place short on my list -> 11th #7 Yellow[Arnc] 7th or 8th looks good #8 Light No no no no ! Ok he only got to play his worst MU (+1 TvP), but he lost it all ! Until I see him win a few games, he's not on mt list ! #9 Nada Hard start in OSL but came back afterwards only thanks to his TvT. Qualified for next MSL. Ok for 9th #10 GGplay No ! Yes he had nice stats in PL, but his last games wern't up to it. He lost vs FBH, is no where near MSL qualification and there are no PL to help him out on this one -> He's out !
My list :
1 Savior 2 Casy 3 Midas 4 Up 5 Ra 6 Much 7 July 8 Yellow[Arnc] 9 Nada 10 Bisu
Up : "ok" he lost vs Nada 2-1 and you might not have liked his last strat, but those are the only games he lost... He's probably soon in MSL and showed great strats so far. It may not help him in a few months once everyone will be used to it but for now it works, he wins ! Number 4 for him !
July : He saved his team's ass in both finals (vs Xellos and Oov). Qualified for next MSL beating Anytime and only lost 2-1 to Casy !! He deserves a spot in here !
Bisu: Still strong in MSL, only defeated 1 game vs Ra.
1 Savior 2 Casy 3 Midas 4 Up 5 Ra 6 Much 7 July 8 Yellow[Arnc] 9 Nada 10 Bisu
Up at 4??? Whaaaaaaaaat? Losing to an out of shape (relatively) Nada, and not present in either leagues shouldn't even GIVE you a place on the list, let alone the off chance of you being in the MSL.
Edit: My List: 1. Savior 2. Midas 3. Casy 4. rA 5. Much 6. Bisu 7. Yarnc 8. Hwasin 9. Nada 10. Zergman
1 Savior 2 Casy 3 Midas 4 Up 5 Ra 6 Much 7 July 8 Yellow[Arnc] 9 Nada 10 Bisu
Up at 4??? Whaaaaaaaaat? Losing to an out of shape (relatively) Nada, and not present in either leagues shouldn't even GIVE you a place on the list, let alone the off chance of you being in the MSL.
Edit: My List: 1. Savior 2. Midas 3. Casy 4. rA 5. Much 6. Bisu 7. Yarnc 8. Hwasin 9. Nada 10. Zergman
eh. bottom 5 was very hard.
Nada did start slumping after his OSL win (losing his 1st 2 games in his OSL group, not qualifying for MSL, losing his match vs Savior and not doing well in PL). But that time is over ! In January the only game he lost was vs Up and he finished 2-1. Nada is not slumping anymore, the curse is over
I don't know how 7-1 (87,5 %) is "a slump" and is enough for only 9th place. As far as majority here thinks this is OK, I consider something is really wrong with me.
Nada is not slumping but he doesn't go higher then #9 on my list because when you look at the people he faced, they are not the scariest players ever : Dongrae, FirebatHero, Light, ShinHwa, Up and Silver today.
I support your views on ggplay. His games were absolutely beautiful, and the some of the greatest pieces of ZvT art I've seen this year. He played so well vs. FBH (not including hitchhiker), but on the flip side, how do you think he lost? I think FBH did a terrific job of weathering the storm in the reverse temple game, and if his play was anything less than brilliant, he wouldn't have been able to capitalize on ggplay's mistake.
I would have put FBH somewhere in the 6-10 portion of the list. I dunno where.
Hmmmmmm making my own top 10 ^^. Top 5 I agree with Etter 101% except again savior should be higher. Now the bottom 5 I would rate it like this ^^.
6.Hwasin >.< Like Etter said, I don't like hwasin either.... I don't think he's good, but not bad either. He got owned by zergman in his strongest match up in my opinion and that's bad TT_TT. However, he managed qualify for BOTH MSL, and OSL in the first place which is why he is above the players in my list 7. Bisu Even though he plays agressive, if he has a strong start, he'll never lose. You think he will give up the lead, but he manages to win in the end^^. I thought he would make it far this OSL too, but he did very poorly in Dual tournament TT_TT. Also his 2 losses in the Final and Grand final in Proleague was a big no no 8. Fake Yellow I hate this guy too, but what can I say, he man-handled a manly terran. I don't know about his other performances, but he is starting to look good too. I really don't know a lot about this guy, but he IS in the OSL and beat a terran I thought was invincible so.... There you go^^. 9.Nada What's the curse again? Wtf is a curse Nada? I know, you never experienced it ^^. Even though he struggled early in the OSL, come on~~ He dominated the wildcards, and now dominated all the terrans in the OSL. Now, many people say Casy is the favorite, but I think Nada is. Why? This OSL is full of terran, and even though they were crappy opponents his record in TvT effin owns. Nada is my bet. That is if Savior is eliminated ^^. 10. Hmmmm I have three choices FBH, Zergman, Julyzerg(fatzerg because I love him) But winnnnnnnneeeeeeerrrrrrrrr goes toooooooooooooooooooo Zergman!!!! Why? This OSL is full of shit. What i mean is Terran maps..... Zergman beating a great TvZ player in a TERRAN map is a big thing to do. Of course FBH looked really good agaisnt GGplay but it was from terran maps and it was 2-1. That is why it goes to Zergman even though I hate you.
My Close but No cigar ^^
Iris - I don't know why but you win so there craterface FBH - We'll see, but the only thing that comes to my mind when i see you is when you cried at your loss from Buffaloface July - WHY DID YOU LOSE to casy even though you owned proleague and got owned by Badfriend. I Love you, but after you lost, I can't put you in #10. Up - I had to put you because even though your not in any leagues like Fatzerg, you were doing really well. I just don't know why you switched to BC's TT_TT. GGplay - Again you're not in any leagues but you did really well agianst FBH, but it's not your fault, it's the mapmakes fault so until next season bai bai.
Now I think there still is a little bias in my list, and that is putting Bisu up so high ^^. So I think my list is pretty accurate in my eyes besides Bisu in there but I love him as much as I love fatzerg. so comment away. Oh, and tell my why bisu deserves to be lower or out of it, and don't just say oh he sucks, because my auto-reply like physcian is "screw you."
Edit: Oh and what do you think about this list Etter?
1. Nal_Ra He's protoss, Djetter hates him, and he has style....hes got it all
2. Nada He proved the curse wrong, What a feat by this beast. Keep chippin away.
3. Savior jesus save us from this dictator
4. Casy He has four letters in his name.
5. Midas Wow, his name is really symbolic. seeing him lose is like watching your 15 DAs get nuked. You want to choke yourself. Mi DAs!
6. Gorush Well he did get raped by Much, one of the worst PvZ players that are strong on the scene. But he has a cool haircut so i think i can forget about it.
7. Yellow[arnc] LOL FAKE YELLOW IMPERSONATOR ROFL SO LAME GO PLAY MARIO KART NOOB! oh wait that isnt funny anymore.
8. Iris Houston, we've got a problem. We found the real moon on this guy.
9. Hwasin Ok so you lost vs 1 hatch lurk on arkanoid. Understandable. wait a second..
10. Mingu a 30 % winning record in all his matchups combined isnt enough for me to put him any lower on this list.
On February 06 2007 15:33 SiZ.FaNtAsY wrote: Hmmmmmm making my own top 10 ^^. Top 5 I agree with Etter 101% except again savior should be higher. Now the bottom 5 I would rate it like this ^^.
Edit: Oh and what do you think about this list Etter?
It's pretty good. Zergman was my "tough call" for #10. It came down to him and GGPlay, and I'd rather show the preference to the player who has shown some serious skills for the past, well, long time, rather than the player who managed, through two hyper-aggressive builds, to win a ZvT series on some tough maps. I know Zergman won 2-0--and that's commendable--but I don't feel like he "showed" very much. So I'm playing it safe with him.
As for your subsitution of Light and Bisu, I don't think it's warranted, but you can make a case for it, what with Bisu making the semifinals. Bisu has shown, especially lately, what I think is a trend among the younger players (Hwasin was the one who brought it to my attention): a great early and mid- game, but flakey late game management. The reason he wins is that he's usually able to build up such a strong foundation within the first 10-15 minutes that he can "hang on" for the finish. Bisu seems to get weaker as games go on, whereas many more "old school" gamers definitely get stronger.
But really, I wouldn't argue very hard with anyone whose bottom five consisted of some mixture of Hwasin, Yarnc, Light, Nada, GGPlay, Bisu, July, Zergman, Iris, Up, FirebatHero, and Pusan. You can make a case for any of them, and because all of them have either recently stumbled or just not shown very much lately (or not had the chance to), it's very easy to pick and choose based upon what you've thought of their play as of late.
On February 06 2007 15:33 SiZ.FaNtAsY wrote: Hmmmmmm making my own top 10 ^^. Top 5 I agree with Etter 101% except again savior should be higher. Now the bottom 5 I would rate it like this ^^.
6.Hwasin >.< Like Etter said, I don't like hwasin either.... I don't think he's good, but not bad either. He got owned by zergman in his strongest match up in my opinion and that's bad TT_TT. However, he managed qualify for BOTH MSL, and OSL in the first place which is why he is above the players in my list 7. Bisu Even though he plays agressive, if he has a strong start, he'll never lose. You think he will give up the lead, but he manages to win in the end^^. I thought he would make it far this OSL too, but he did very poorly in Dual tournament TT_TT. Also his 2 losses in the Final and Grand final in Proleague was a big no no 8. Fake Yellow I hate this guy too, but what can I say, he man-handled a manly terran. I don't know about his other performances, but he is starting to look good too. I really don't know a lot about this guy, but he IS in the OSL and beat a terran I thought was invincible so.... There you go^^. 9.Nada What's the curse again? Wtf is a curse Nada? I know, you never experienced it ^^. Even though he struggled early in the OSL, come on~~ He dominated the wildcards, and now dominated all the terrans in the OSL. Now, many people say Casy is the favorite, but I think Nada is. Why? This OSL is full of terran, and even though they were crappy opponents his record in TvT effin owns. Nada is my bet. That is if Savior is eliminated ^^. 10. Hmmmm I have three choices FBH, Zergman, Julyzerg(fatzerg because I love him) But winnnnnnnneeeeeeerrrrrrrrr goes toooooooooooooooooooo Zergman!!!! Why? This OSL is full of shit. What i mean is Terran maps..... Zergman beating a great TvZ player in a TERRAN map is a big thing to do. Of course FBH looked really good agaisnt GGplay but it was from terran maps and it was 2-1. That is why it goes to Zergman even though I hate you.
My Close but No cigar ^^
Iris - I don't know why but you win so there craterface FBH - We'll see, but the only thing that comes to my mind when i see you is when you cried at your loss from Buffaloface July - WHY DID YOU LOSE to casy even though you owned proleague and got owned by Badfriend. I Love you, but after you lost, I can't put you in #10. Up - I had to put you because even though your not in any leagues like Fatzerg, you were doing really well. I just don't know why you switched to BC's TT_TT. GGplay - Again you're not in any leagues but you did really well agianst FBH, but it's not your fault, it's the mapmakes fault so until next season bai bai.
Now I think there still is a little bias in my list, and that is putting Bisu up so high ^^. So I think my list is pretty accurate in my eyes besides Bisu in there but I love him as much as I love fatzerg. so comment away. Oh, and tell my why bisu deserves to be lower or out of it, and don't just say oh he sucks, because my auto-reply like physcian is "screw you."
Edit: Oh and what do you think about this list Etter?
On February 06 2007 15:33 SiZ.FaNtAsY wrote: Hmmmmmm making my own top 10 ^^. Top 5 I agree with Etter 101% except again savior should be higher. Now the bottom 5 I would rate it like this ^^.
Edit: Oh and what do you think about this list Etter?
It's pretty good. Zergman was my "tough call" for #10. It came down to him and GGPlay, and I'd rather show the preference to the player who has shown some serious skills for the past, well, long time, rather than the player who managed, through two hyper-aggressive builds, to win a ZvT series on some tough maps. I know Zergman won 2-0--and that's commendable--but I don't feel like he "showed" very much. So I'm playing it safe with him.
As for your subsitution of Light and Bisu, I don't think it's warranted, but you can make a case for it, what with Bisu making the semifinals. Bisu has shown, especially lately, what I think is a trend among the younger players (Hwasin was the one who brought it to my attention): a great early and mid- game, but flakey late game management. The reason he wins is that he's usually able to build up such a strong foundation within the first 10-15 minutes that he can "hang on" for the finish. Bisu seems to get weaker as games go on, whereas many more "old school" gamers definitely get stronger.
But really, I wouldn't argue very hard with anyone whose bottom five consisted of some mixture of Hwasin, Yarnc, Light, Nada, GGPlay, Bisu, July, Zergman, Iris, Up, FirebatHero, and Pusan. You can make a case for any of them, and because all of them have either recently stumbled or just not shown very much lately (or not had the chance to), it's very easy to pick and choose based upon what you've thought of their play as of late.
Hmm i dno about up really... like nada said, hes not a new boxer; his strategies are simplistic not boxer-esq. That aside, he lost 2 series, one preventing his entry to MSL and another ending his OSL run.. I just feel like he simply a terran version of ever)p(TT
Victory Oov. Strongs Show. Victory FBH. Strong Show. Victory Nada Not bad Show. Victory Yarc. Sexy Show. Loss Shinhwa, Ugly Show. Loss Canata, Ugly Show. Loss Nada Not bad Show.
On February 06 2007 15:33 SiZ.FaNtAsY wrote: Hmmmmmm making my own top 10 ^^. Top 5 I agree with Etter 101% except again savior should be higher. Now the bottom 5 I would rate it like this ^^.
Edit: Oh and what do you think about this list Etter?
It's pretty good. Zergman was my "tough call" for #10. It came down to him and GGPlay, and I'd rather show the preference to the player who has shown some serious skills for the past, well, long time, rather than the player who managed, through two hyper-aggressive builds, to win a ZvT series on some tough maps. I know Zergman won 2-0--and that's commendable--but I don't feel like he "showed" very much. So I'm playing it safe with him.
As for your subsitution of Light and Bisu, I don't think it's warranted, but you can make a case for it, what with Bisu making the semifinals. Bisu has shown, especially lately, what I think is a trend among the younger players (Hwasin was the one who brought it to my attention): a great early and mid- game, but flakey late game management. The reason he wins is that he's usually able to build up such a strong foundation within the first 10-15 minutes that he can "hang on" for the finish. Bisu seems to get weaker as games go on, whereas many more "old school" gamers definitely get stronger.
But really, I wouldn't argue very hard with anyone whose bottom five consisted of some mixture of Hwasin, Yarnc, Light, Nada, GGPlay, Bisu, July, Zergman, Iris, Up, FirebatHero, and Pusan. You can make a case for any of them, and because all of them have either recently stumbled or just not shown very much lately (or not had the chance to), it's very easy to pick and choose based upon what you've thought of their play as of late.
Hmm i dno about up really... like nada said, hes not a new boxer; his strategies are simplistic not boxer-esq. That aside, he lost 2 series, one preventing his entry to MSL and another ending his OSL run.. I just feel like he simply a terran version of ever)p(TT
He really got dominated by Canata, but these games wern't played yet when the Power Rank came out
On February 05 2007 01:36 One Page Memory wrote: I don't know how 7-1 (87,5 %) is "a slump" and is enough for only 9th place. As far as majority here thinks this is OK, I consider something is really wrong with me.
NaDa is 4-0 this month, but don't you worry! This will merely be enough to promote him into the prestigious #8 or so, because - obviously - his hair is so ridiculous, his name is Lee, and besides - DJetter doesn't like the way he ties his shoes - how can you expect DJetter to award him anything better than that?? :/
NaDa will be lucky to win his 4th OSL and get into #7...
"Yeah I know he just won his 4th OSL... It's just that... it's somehow not really convincing, you know... I just don't like the way he sends his first SCVs out, really. 7th place will be enough for him I think"
PS.: Please pardon my blatant sarcasm against a fellow staff member
You aren't even actively following the pro leagues anymore, why do you think you know better?
Nada has just hasn't been playing convincingly last month. Silver wasn't in the first power rank even though he'd made it to the MSL finals, same reason there. You can win games and still not play too well.
I'm not sure why I'm even responding, according to you Nada would be #1 every power rank. :p
On February 07 2007 13:01 Orome wrote: You aren't even actively following the pro leagues anymore, why do you think you know better?
Nada has just hasn't been playing convincingly last month. Silver wasn't in the first power rank even though he'd made it to the MSL finals, same reason there. You can win games and still not play too well.
I'm not sure why I'm even responding, according to you Nada would be #1 every power rank. :p
Yes actually I'd just book the #1 spot for NaDa, but that's besides the point!
Not playing convincingly? 4-0 is not convincing? -_- Every word the Master speaketh is gospel! You're just deaf to His words. Not convincing?? What do you know of the ways of the Lord? What he does is up to Him and no one else.
Btw I'm hurt by you saying I'm not following anything and discrediting me like that I have been following every league very actively (watching games live ever since the sc2.org - may NaDa's eternal blessings fall on ilovecat's soul - and getting all the VODs if I missed something) for the last 1.5 ~ 2 months, so I'm quite certain I know well enough to judge.
And yes, all in all #9 is plain disrespectful, I dare say - heresy - againsts His name.
Did you watch any of Nada's games in December? As I said in the January rankings, he went 3-6 after his OSL win, getting smacked the hell around by practically everyone of note. His only wins were a TvZ on Desert Fox and two no-name Ps.
He managed to get through the truly skilled Survivor group of PokJu[S.G], Jy, and HiyA[fOu] at 2-1--impressive (2/3 of his wins for December!). Then I watched him advance through the group stages/wildcard because--get this--he had better TvT than Dongrae and Light--again, impressive. Did you watch his game against Much?
Beating Up was nice, because Up was the first real opponent that Nada didn't crumble against against (excluding his TvT against FBH in the wildcards) since his OSL win. So yeah, that's worthy of the #9 slot. If he keeps winning, I'll keep moving him up (and he has been winning), but you can't honestly expect me to start suckling his teats Mynock-style just because he beat one promising but unproven player (2-1, no less) and a bunch of scrubs.
On February 02 2007 22:20 Manifesto7 wrote: What the hell?
Yeah, GGPlay has pretty game, but he was booted out of the only league he was in by FireBatHero, who took him apart. Between those two players, they are only playing in the one league, and FBH > GGPlay. That stupid zergs record from LAST YEAR shouldnt matter, all that should matter is that you have a bias against terrn players because of the maps, and FBH >>> GGPlay all day long. There are no other results that can sway the vote.
Also, what the hell is wrong with Iris, except that he is beating everyone he faces? That MINOR LeAGUE series against a lucky mustashioed keke doesnt matter, this man is going prime time in the OSL, and that should count. More that Light anyways. This shouldnt be on his percieved skill, it should be on his results, and a 2-0 RAPING of gf is a good result.
Lastly, Iris and Zergman are going at it in the OSL. I think Zergman wil take the bo3 series, but whoever wins better be on your list next month etter.
I have a personal grudge against GGplay, so I don't want to argue against you there.
But Iris? Are you serious? His TvZ is the worst I've seen from a Top level Terran...ever. Bar none. Doggi is his daddy in TvZ. This is how pathetic it is. Fine, the games against Keke were in a minor league, but are you implying that he could beat an OSL Zerg in a series? No chance in hell.
I can't stand Iris. The fact that he's #4 Kespa is a damn joke. He's the Silver of Terran's. As soon as he runs out of TvT MUs he'll be a walk over for his first Z or P (who am I kidding, there are non) opponent.
Iris is a complete shmuck. Stealing 1 off games in group stages from random smatterings of Zergs doesn't mean shit to me.
Bottom line, when you need to mention 2-0ing GF as the big thing a player has done this month, it's obvious why he doesn't deserve a spot.
GGplay really should have dropped off though Etter. I know you like him, but he's blown it at almost every opportunity he's gotten in the past month. Maps or not, the guy has been playing like poop in comparison to his other top Zerg counterparts. They have the same map pool as him, so that should be the bar.
With posts like this your're basically making a fool of yourself.
On February 07 2007 14:55 DJEtterStyle wrote: but you can't honestly expect me to start suckling his teats Mynock-style just because he beat one promising but unproven player (2-1, no less) and a bunch of scrubs.
Although I agree with your logic, I find it funny to see that coming from someone who keeps ranking ggplay for no reason beside pure fanboyism (or w/e the spelling is)
Yep. Look, I acknowledge my sentiments towards NaDa. I also acknowledge that for this exact reason I personally would do a horrible job at a power rankings (who wants to read 10 different paragraphs for reasons why NaDa is #1 to #10). The problem is DJetter won't accept that he's no different from any of us.
I don't care whose teats you suck, as long as you don't try to pass it off as an objective opinion - other than that - whatever floats your boat - that's what progaming is all about, no?
On February 08 2007 16:32 Myxomatosis wrote: if rA falls off this list while GGPlay stays on next month, this feature should be removed. --
I'm glad you were able to come to that conclusion eight days into the month. You're clearly an individual who considers all the facts before forming an opinion.
On February 08 2007 03:35 Mynock wrote: he problem is DJetter won't accept that he's no different from any of us.
The (funny) difference is that I'm actually harder on players that I really like. I still haven't forgiven Anytime for slumping the way he did after the finals. After his games against DarkElf, I've seriously--for the next couple months, anyway--just given up on him. If you were to tell me, today, that Anytime was playing against Savior in a Bo5 at 3:30 AM my time, I would just go to bed, confident that Savior would 3-0 him. I'd download the VODs to check on the play, but the result would hardly even matter to me; Anytime's play as of late has been awful. So yeah, I am different from most of you--from 99% of you, anyway. I'm not so naive as to believe that there aren't people out there that could do this job just as well as I can, but chances are you're not one of them, due to either ignorance or insufficient mental faculties. So relax, enjoy the PR, and do your best to refute my list.
Like to said to tfeign, it's easy to attack the PR when you don't provide your own. Show what you can do, and chances are that it'll, for the most part, correspond to the list that I've created. I can deal with dissent, but these ridiculous attacks upon my character piss me off.
First of all, let me clarify a few things for you.
The problem is DJetter won't accept that he's no different from any of us.
This is not a personal attack. This is criticism. (Which you have serious problems dealing with judging from all our short lived encounters so far.)
chances are you're not one of them, due to either ignorance or insufficient mental faculties
Now this is a personal attack. (You just called me stupid? I don't even want to waste my time refuting such idle banter on your part, I beg your pardon...)
you can't honestly expect me to start suckling his teats Mynock-style
This is another example of a personal attack if you didn't get it yet. Not too elaborate, but I'm used to not expecting much anyway.
But let me show you a few prime examples of personal attacks and arrogant insults towards people who have accomplished far more than you have or ever will:
He’d make a great girlfriend, given that he’s a choker, but alas, I can’t give out spots based upon probable skill at fellatio.
Outrageous. No self-respecting human being could possibly utter such nonsense in regards of one of the best players of a sport he's supposedly a connoisseur of. In a public report no less!
If I did that, TossGirl would be #1 every month, and that would be no fun at all.
Do you even know what constitutes humor and what is plain profanity? Chances are you don't.
I hate Ra. He gives Protoss players everywhere a bad name.
Given that it's exactly the opposite I'm inclined to believe that either it's an other attempt at a poorly constructed joke or your ineptitude of proper judgment.
So I’m throwing him a bone and giving him my coveted #9 spot
Disrespectful and arrogant again. As if anybody actually cares what you do or don't. Especially on your list.
You're writing reports on an international site, not chatting on MSN. Pull yourself together please, will you?
I give him no more than a Twinkie’s chance in July’s hands against Savior.
Yes we get it - July is overweight. These jokes are not only old and not funny, they are absolutely insulting.
Iris - Grab an Oxy pad or eight and we'll see how you're doing in a month.
Ridiculous. Who do you think you are?
July - You're close, but not close enough for me to toss you the Twinkie that is a spot in my top ten.
Find a new joke please.
Midas was dumb enough to choose Savior twice. The decision was both stupid and disrespectful to the fans
What do you know about stupid? Is insulting some of the best players in the world so smart? No it's not.
My opinions are more valid than yours because my name is blue.
You my friend is arrogant and not very competent at it either. It seems to me you believe yourself to be the next Mensrea. Well let me tell you you're not. Such arrogance *might* be acceptable after certain levels of accomplishment, however you can't show them off yet, now can you? Maybe later on, when you put something on the table you can slip in a thing or two. As it is right now you're just acting highly unprofessional.
But let's not stop here, and take a look at a couple of your ranking decisions:
Nada is off the list because he’s 3-6 since his OSL win, and those three wins have been against crappy opponents on imbalanced maps. He managed to “take down” Soo on Arkanoid, Pokju on Blitz, and Jy on Desert Fox. Then he lost to oov, Much (twice), Pokju, Daezang, and—get this—Mingu. And this is going to continue for at least a few months; it’s the OGN Curse, after all.
You've been wrong. Absolutely wrong.
Iris – You are always warm, never hot, and your TvZ is god-awful. That display against Nal_Keke was pathetic.
Ah? OK.
As for GGPlay, I have to respond to a few comments from last month with a question: what slump? A cheese loss against Pusan on Blitz, a ZvZ loss to Magma, and a bunker rush from ForGG is enough to call him slumping? The guy is still a beast across the board, and it’s going to take a lot more than the above games to convince me otherwise.
Wrong again. Deal with it accordingly.
it took the ever-sexy Anytime to knock GoRush out of the OSL
Watch his games from this most-recent OSL. Then watch Nada’s. Then come back here and tell me, with a straight face, that Nada played better. Hint: he didn’t.
I suppose winning an OSL, despite his cream puff list of opponents until the finals, warrants a reward of this magnitude. But if he loses any more games to people like Mingu, you know where his ranking is going.
You being unbiased is like Mahatma Gandhi going on a massacre spree while on crack. Not to mention you actually had the audacity to try and explain your way out of putting NaDa who defeated Anytime in an OSL final BELOW Anytime. From that moment on I knew the PR isn't worth much, but was always hoping for things to change as you get more into it. Well you never did.
I could quote you to no end just from these 3 last PRs, but why should I waste any more of my time on it?
All in all, I think you either have to shape up to your incredible level of arrogance based on absolutely nothing, or actually start looking for a way to put players in their right spots (why, look at two of the current OSL top4 finishers: one is #9 and the other one is off the charts completely, that's quite a miss on your side, yes? In the meantime your #4, 5 and 7 crashed and burned, and what GGPlay is doing there is completely beyond me) other than based of your personal preferences. See, from day one I was opposing this whole getup, as I was able to spot the inherent flaws right away. It's a shame for the idea, I think rea could have probably pulled it off for one. Nobody listened to me then, and without any tries or discussion the thing started rolling. Well, I see Mani likes the "discussions" the rankings sprouts, so what can I say... Be happy I guess, I don't think I will bother taking a look at the top right corner of the site anymore, let alone partake in any of these "discussions" if things stay the same.
But still I ask you personally, DJ: stop with the outrageous insults please. You're not doing yourself any justice with them.
Most of the current newswriters on TL share a similar writing style -- exaggeration and hyperbole appear frequently. It's not a bad thing, but I think it has its limitations. For me, one thing that ruins a good battle report (or, in this case, PR) are jokes made in bad taste. Among the forum comments, you expect derogatory remarks made in the form of cliché metaphors, however, I think it is reasonable for the staff to keep in consideration some of the basic practices of amateur journalism when they write their reports. I think Etter is a reasonably prolific writer (as far as it is possible to judge this from casual posts on a forum), and I enjoy reading this new feature, however the over-used jokes appear mean-spirited, regardless of the author's intent or mindset when writing them.
This is just my opinion, offered for constructive purposes. I know that I'm in the minority on TL with regards to my writing tastes, however I felt it may be appropriate to voice them here given Mynock's criticism.
On February 09 2007 07:40 Mynock wrote: But still I ask you personally, DJ: stop with the outrageous insults please. You're not doing yourself any justice with them.
Please keep them up, otherwise I will stop reading. FOR REAL ANDREW, FOR REAL.
On February 09 2007 07:40 Mynock wrote: But still I ask you personally, DJ: stop with the outrageous insults please. You're not doing yourself any justice with them.
Please keep them up, otherwise I will stop reading. FOR REAL ANDREW, FOR REAL.
Join the OSL/MSL channels on sc2.org during them leagues and you will have your fill for weeks on. The constant topics of discussion include such ever-important questions as how much make-up will melt down from Iris before half his pimples are revealed by the end of the game, how many chokopies July consumed before the matches, or which bar did SaviOr get his herpes from.
On February 08 2007 16:32 Myxomatosis wrote: if rA falls off this list while GGPlay stays on next month, this feature should be removed. --
I'm glad you were able to come to that conclusion eight days into the month. You're clearly an individual who considers all the facts before forming an opinion.
oh give me a break, all of my other criticism has been more or less thought out whenever I posted in the list, out of curiosity, though, what leagues are GGPlay going to play in between now and march for a spot on the list. Same thing with rA, pretty much nothing right? So it's not like he is going to have anything to show for next month anyway. It was probably presumptious to say that this feature should be removed, because I like it a lot and the controversy it brings. However, the GGPlay bias annoyed me this month more than anything in the preceding features.
much and ra are too high imho.. a power ranking for such short periods of time is always bound to be inaccurate as hell.. you should set clear rules about how you rate the gamers.. like give every player a ''POWER RATING'' ( i.e : Savior 10 NaDa 9 Iris 5 OR you could even devide it in match up ranks : Savior ZvP 10 Savior ZvT 9 Saivor zvz 8 ; NaDa TvP 9 NaDa TvZ 9 NaDa TvT 9 ) PLZ note, that these rankings are examples and it might be very hard to give an accurate ranking.
Now you make a ranking of every pro playing right now. You could change it from 1 to 10.. to 1 to 20 or whatever in order to make it more accurate..
So basicaly now you invent some kind of ''ladder'' with a ranking ''system'' and now you could always update it for.. lets say 1 or two months or maybe limited by a certain number of games being played. I dont know exactly how we could make it, but thats something u can think about if u take the time.. and with quite huge effort you could make such a system, very well, imo.
I hope u got my idea and with this idea you basicaly get some more objective results, imho.. You could even change a players ''powerranking'' in his different match ups by looking for every game in every certain match up he played so far and changing it accordingly to his success.
This is VERY much work and i can easily understand if no one would ever want to do it, but if you understood my idea you should at least find it a little bit interesting and worth thinkin about it.
And please never say someone played better than the other if the one who is supposed to have played better actually lost. ( i.e Anytime vs NaDa ) . Anytime lost because he was worse. I dont care if it were strategical mistakes, macro faults or micro .. or what ever. IF someone loses be it for his own faults or for the strength of his opponent or what so ever.. its stupid and totally unheard to call the other player the better gamer. Thats just like saying : This guy A did a beatuiful reaver drop and killed with superb micro all the units, when at the same time he doest horrible macro faults and loses .. its the WHOLE and complete game with all its litte faccetts, and the winner of the game is the one who did the least faults or did force the most faults of his opponent.
On February 09 2007 11:10 omgbnetsux wrote: Power rankings are, by nature, subjective. You have an objective ranking. Its called KeSPA.
we've been over this a dozen times -.- at the point at which you try to ascribe any objectivity whatsoever to it - i.e., by calling it a "Power Ranking" and not "DJEtter's Ten Favorite Players" - you lose the right to hide behind 'subjectivity' and 'personal opinion' in every decision, and you need to present at least some form of justification and rationalization for the decision
That was a response to the person above me calling for objective measures in a Power Ranking. Needless to say, Sir Etter provides justification and his personal rationalization for his decisions, both of which are subjective. What's your point?
On February 09 2007 10:43 MaGic~PhiL wrote: much and ra are too high imho.. a power ranking for such short periods of time is always bound to be inaccurate as hell.. you should set clear rules about how you rate the gamers.. like give every player a ''POWER RATING'' ( i.e : Savior 10 NaDa 9 Iris 5 OR you could even devide it in match up ranks : Savior ZvP 10 Savior ZvT 9 Saivor zvz 8 ; NaDa TvP 9 NaDa TvZ 9 NaDa TvT 9 ) PLZ note, that these rankings are examples and it might be very hard to give an accurate ranking.
Now you make a ranking of every pro playing right now. You could change it from 1 to 10.. to 1 to 20 or whatever in order to make it more accurate..
So basicaly now you invent some kind of ''ladder'' with a ranking ''system'' and now you could always update it for.. lets say 1 or two months or maybe limited by a certain number of games being played. I dont know exactly how we could make it, but thats something u can think about if u take the time.. and with quite huge effort you could make such a system, very well, imo.
I hope u got my idea and with this idea you basicaly get some more objective results, imho.. You could even change a players ''powerranking'' in his different match ups by looking for every game in every certain match up he played so far and changing it accordingly to his success.
This is VERY much work and i can easily understand if no one would ever want to do it, but if you understood my idea you should at least find it a little bit interesting and worth thinkin about it.
And please never say someone played better than the other if the one who is supposed to have played better actually lost. ( i.e Anytime vs NaDa ) . Anytime lost because he was worse. I dont care if it were strategical mistakes, macro faults or micro .. or what ever. IF someone loses be it for his own faults or for the strength of his opponent or what so ever.. its stupid and totally unheard to call the other player the better gamer. Thats just like saying : This guy A did a beatuiful reaver drop and killed with superb micro all the units, when at the same time he doest horrible macro faults and loses .. its the WHOLE and complete game with all its litte faccetts, and the winner of the game is the one who did the least faults or did force the most faults of his opponent.
so far
PhiL
I agree with everything Phil said. That would take an extreme amount of work but if someone is willing to do it I say we let them do so. This would mean watching EVERY SINGLE televised game and analyzing closely. AND making a rating system and keeping track of it. This would take a lot of effort, would anyone actually want all this work?
On February 09 2007 11:10 omgbnetsux wrote: Power rankings are, by nature, subjective. You have an objective ranking. Its called KeSPA.
You should have said why KeSPA its objective... KeSPA Rankings follows the path of Winning Percentage... The more you win...the higher you will be... On a personal note...I like what Mynock said... If this ranking wasnt so disrespectful to Korean Progamers...I would also like it...
At the time of the list, I honestly think Much was the 4th strongest looking player in the world. He went through tough competition and even won PvZ, and being the only toss in the OSL, put ona killer show. You guys forget the last week had a lot of games involving a lot of these guys.
Power Rankings are just a combination of knowledge, a slight bias and a bit of flaming for fun, this combination makes up for a good, what more do you want?
On February 09 2007 11:10 omgbnetsux wrote: Power rankings are, by nature, subjective. You have an objective ranking. Its called KeSPA.
You should have said why KeSPA its objective... KeSPA Rankings follows the path of Winning Percentage... The more you win...the higher you will be... On a personal note...I like what Mynock said... If this ranking wasnt so disrespectful to Korean Progamers...I would also like it...
kespa is also dumb at the same time because it takes so long for people to rise up/fall down (ie. JJu at #3 one higher than last month, Chojja in top 10 etc.) So power rankings has its own advantage as well.
Interesting thought - suppose Savior runs right over all the other opponents and completely embarrasses them en route to winning the OSL. Suppose that you had to do Power Rank right after that, ignoring like the MSL stuff.
How high would you rank Midas? Is it justifiable to give him second even though he's in ODT and at least 7 other people finished ahead of him in OSL? I'm really curious what you guys think of that.
On February 09 2007 12:56 omgbnetsux wrote: That was a response to the person above me calling for objective measures in a Power Ranking. Needless to say, Sir Etter provides justification and his personal rationalization for his decisions, both of which are subjective. What's your point?
He does, I just don't agree with the rationalization for some of it =)
If Savior proceeds to embarass everyone, Midas did go 2-2 with him overall this OSL. It's hard to take Midas down a lot if Savior proceeds to crush everyone. Iris will lose anyways so Nada or Casy will take on Savior, meaning they will probably rise in rank a lil bit next PR. Hell, Casy can honestly go to #2 if he beats Nada and is ready to take on Savior...
Midas is a hard case this month because he fell to the #1 ranked, and very narrowly, leaving upcoming performances in the air...
The relevant question that I debated with Aphelion is whether or not you'd think the same way if Savior had lost to Midas and Midas went on to win OSL...judging strictly from OSL, would he be any lower than no.2 or maybe no.3?
Again, I will say that anyone in the top 10 to 20 are capable of beating the other. The only standouts at the moment are Savior, and dare I say it, NaDa. Rankings are just for funsies anyway.
It's really like the current tennis situation. There's Federer, and dare I say it, Nadal. The rest are capable of beating each other.
such a comparison is insulting to federer, who has been number one in the world every week for 2 years, reached 16 of 17 finals in tournaments he played in 2006, and has been 246-15 since the end of 2003
I'm going to get flamed but I think Midas is seriously overrated. Yes he has amazing game mechanics but his mental strenght is just very poor and that's as important as skill when playing at high lvl. Midas just can't take the heat eventhough he's such a juggernaut when his pants are dry. I would rank him 5 or 6th personally but that's just me.
Fair enough. I can deal with people saying Midas should be lower. I personally would keep him at #2, but if you guys honestly think he didn't push Savior to win, or that the victory was incredibly significant to Savior, you are wrong. I keep him at #2 because I remember Savior's expression post game, and how close... HOW CLOSE he was from OSL elimination. Please don't forget, Savior is barely in the OSL cuz Midas barely lost.
Of course that doesn't take away future merit in his Much Stomp and future Iris-stomp.
Also, I can understand people's love of Nada, but when this PR was made, he was up against Yarc on maps that we expected every Z to really struggle and lose with. Also, Nada didn't even do well in group stages, finishing 3rd with a losing record. He did well in WildCards but... who's a challenge in Wild Cards to anyone who should be on PR? All the players on the list are favorites at the wild card stage imo.
So far, honestly, I consider Yarc vs Nada the only tough series Nada's played so far. Yarc killed Oov, but I'm not sure how much that means right now. However, after seeing the games, Savior seems so much a favorite imo. However, this could be because I consider Midas one of the best TvZ's, and a lot of people say no but look at his record vs Savior. No other terran comes CLOSE to Midas' record against Savior. They are so close to break even, Savior is pulling like 60% or 55% against Midas. Sorry, no one else is near that. Everyone else is 30% or worse vs Savior pretty much.
I hate Midas for doing what he did... but who's to say he never had a chance? If he did win, you know he is in the finals of the tournament, and up against the weaker bracket half. Plus, honestly, can you rank 4 people better than Midas atm? I honestly cannot.
On February 10 2007 07:54 TheGreatOne wrote: Bet you feel silly now that you didnt put bisu at 10th
And to defend etter, although there is no need to defend here. I believe Bisu pulled out a "???!!! Nice!" series out against Ra. However, who HONESTLY expected that. EVERYONE was very surprised. Bisu played great, and Etter said he was nearly on the PR, and that the bottom 3 on this list could be very inter-changable. Or maybe I said that... but you get the point. I thought about it, but watching Bisu play before vs Ra was.. so-so.
Come on -_-;; He's a protoss... You can't put 3 toss on the list when they suck -_-;;. No Toss representation this season. GJ Bisu.
Im curious if Jaedong should make it there. He has not shown up in OSL MSL yet, but his pro league results are amazing. I think he is a player to look at.
On February 11 2007 16:35 SuperJongMan wrote: Also, Nada didn't even do well in group stages, finishing 3rd with a losing record.
I thought PR is monthly issue. If so group stage in OSL is previous month (December) and should not be considered.
He did well in WildCards but... who's a challenge in Wild Cards to anyone who should be on PR?All the players on the list are favorites at the wild card stage imo.
Well, Nada beat Light, who happens to be above him!
"and a combination of maps and good luck might be enough for him to continue advancing, but his skill is much, much lower than it was last season." - DJEtterStyle
January Nada has played these games: Nada > Shinhwa Nada > Shinhwa Nada > Dongrae Nada > Dongrae Nada > Firebathero Nada > Light Nada > Upmagic Nada < Upmagic
I truly don't understand "combination of maps and good luck" part. 6 out of 8 games were TvT, and AFAIC one game vs Shinhwa was on pretty balanced Blitz X. And we're not discussing if Nada's power is less or more than it was last season, but where is Nada's skill now toward other PRO's. I find 9th place is not right.
On February 11 2007 16:35 SuperJongMan wrote: Also, Nada didn't even do well in group stages, finishing 3rd with a losing record.
I thought PR is monthly issue. If so group stage in OSL is previous month (December) and should not be considered.
Yes, it's a monthly issue, but obviously results and skill displays from the past will matter in ranking the players. Savior has been the best for so long, he can afford to have a slightly worse month (like the last) and still be ranked 1. Midas might not play a single televised game this month, but he could still be on the power rank.
He did well in WildCards but... who's a challenge in Wild Cards to anyone who should be on PR?All the players on the list are favorites at the wild card stage imo.
Well, Nada beat Light, who happens to be above him!
Light is #8 (which I consider to be a bit high as well btw) because of his TvP and TvZ, both of which are very good. TvT is his weak spot, and Nada's best mu right now, so him losing to Nada is no surprise. Light also lost to Hwasin. :p
I truly don't understand "combination of maps and good luck" part. 6 out of 8 games were TvT, and AFAIC one game vs Shinhwa was on pretty balanced Blitz X. And we're not discussing if Nada's power is less or more than it was last season, but where is Nada's skill now toward other PRO's. I find 9th place is not right.
Although he had good results, if you look at the games individually, he did not play very well in most of them. He played scared, and was lucky to win in more than one of those games. I think I've said it somewhere in this thread before, Silver had a huge win streak during the first month of the power rank, reaching the MSL finals and winning in Proleague, and he wasn't even in the PR.
On February 12 2007 03:03 One Page Memory wrote: I truly don't understand "combination of maps and good luck" part.
You have to read what I wrote. Those things might be enough for him to continue advancing. I was not calling his past wins luck-based. The maps, being good for Terran, meant that there was a high probability that he would, in his upcoming games, get favorable matchups (such as a Bo3 TvZ on Longinus, HitchHiker, and RLT). That's where the luck comes in.
Beyond that, his streak of TvT wins was against a bunch of sort of "meh" players. Jesus, I hope Nada can still handle Dongrae and Light (whose TvT has always been his Achille's heel). The only semi-capable TvT player he beat before Up was FirebatHero, and winning those games is what got him on the PR.
As the tournament has gone on, however, Nada's been playing better and better. He'll probably move up again next month, even though I'm expecting him to lose to Casy 3-1.
Added:
And PR is a monthly update, not a monthly consideration. I certainly weigh current results more heavily than ones from the past few months, but I look at more than the 4-10 games that a player might play over the course of 30 days. I usually go back a few months, but I do try to keep a "short memory" on players whenever possible.
this time the rankin will change drasticaly NaDa will move up very much, Bisu will come in and ra will probably drop down very very much Yellow, GGplay will get removed completely Casy will drop down a bit .. NaDa will be at 3 or 4 now.. Casy at 7 or 8..
Why would Casy be 7 or 8 for you? I would personally still keep him top 5... probably #4 or so. Which is what he is ranked on MSL's fast rank. Savior, Midas, Nada, Casy is the temporary korean ranks top 4 btw, which I think is very close to ours, except Nada just won against Casy and was ahead by 1 point or something...
Yes, I would keep Casy high on the list. That was such a beautiful series by both, the fact that he lost isn't too important. Also depends on the 3rd/4th place games as well of course.
chances are you're not one of them, due to either ignorance or insufficient mental faculties
Now this is a personal attack. (You just called me stupid? I don't even want to waste my time refuting such idle banter on your part, I beg your pardon...)
you can't honestly expect me to start suckling his teats Mynock-style
This is another example of a personal attack if you didn't get it yet. Not too elaborate, but I'm used to not expecting much anyway.
But let me show you a few prime examples of personal attacks and arrogant insults towards people who have accomplished far more than you have or ever will:
He’d make a great girlfriend, given that he’s a choker, but alas, I can’t give out spots based upon probable skill at fellatio.
Outrageous. No self-respecting human being could possibly utter such nonsense in regards of one of the best players of a sport he's supposedly a connoisseur of. In a public report no less!
I hate Ra. He gives Protoss players everywhere a bad name.
Given that it's exactly the opposite I'm inclined to believe that either it's an other attempt at a poorly constructed joke or your ineptitude of proper judgment.
My opinions are more valid than yours because my name is blue.
You my friend is arrogant and not very competent at it either. It seems to me you believe yourself to be the next Mensrea. Well let me tell you you're not. Such arrogance *might* be acceptable after certain levels of accomplishment, however you can't show them off yet, now can you? Maybe later on, when you put something on the table you can slip in a thing or two. As it is right now you're just acting highly unprofessional.
But let's not stop here, and take a look at a couple of your ranking decisions:
Nada is off the list because he’s 3-6 since his OSL win, and those three wins have been against crappy opponents on imbalanced maps. He managed to “take down” Soo on Arkanoid, Pokju on Blitz, and Jy on Desert Fox. Then he lost to oov, Much (twice), Pokju, Daezang, and—get this—Mingu. And this is going to continue for at least a few months; it’s the OGN Curse, after all.
As for GGPlay, I have to respond to a few comments from last month with a question: what slump? A cheese loss against Pusan on Blitz, a ZvZ loss to Magma, and a bunker rush from ForGG is enough to call him slumping? The guy is still a beast across the board, and it’s going to take a lot more than the above games to convince me otherwise.
Watch his games from this most-recent OSL. Then watch Nada’s. Then come back here and tell me, with a straight face, that Nada played better. Hint: he didn’t.
I suppose winning an OSL, despite his cream puff list of opponents until the finals, warrants a reward of this magnitude. But if he loses any more games to people like Mingu, you know where his ranking is going.
You being unbiased is like Mahatma Gandhi going on a massacre spree while on crack. Not to mention you actually had the audacity to try and explain your way out of putting NaDa who defeated Anytime in an OSL final BELOW Anytime. From that moment on I knew the PR isn't worth much, but was always hoping for things to change as you get more into it. Well you never did.
I could quote you to no end just from these 3 last PRs, but why should I waste any more of my time on it?
All in all, I think you either have to shape up to your incredible level of arrogance based on absolutely nothing, or actually start looking for a way to put players in their right spots (why, look at two of the current OSL top4 finishers: one is #9 and the other one is off the charts completely, that's quite a miss on your side, yes? In the meantime your #4, 5 and 7 crashed and burned, and what GGPlay is doing there is completely beyond me) other than based of your personal preferences. See, from day one I was opposing this whole getup, as I was able to spot the inherent flaws right away. It's a shame for the idea, I think rea could have probably pulled it off for one. Nobody listened to me then, and without any tries or discussion the thing started rolling. Well, I see Mani likes the "discussions" the rankings sprouts, so what can I say... Be happy I guess, I don't think I will bother taking a look at the top right corner of the site anymore, let alone partake in any of these "discussions" if things stay the same.
But still I ask you personally, DJ: stop with the outrageous insults please. You're not doing yourself any justice with them.
-Mynock
wow.. don't get into a debate with this man. =)
+1
Especially about NaDa and MiDas. Both have been awesome in the current OSL
~_~ Did you need to quote 3 pages to say a 2 liner? Thar argument sucked. I personally lost a lot of respect for Mynock seeing that shab nonsense.
And I think even if Nada does take #1 OSL, Savior is #1 overall. I mean, finals of OSL + MSL??? How is that not amazing given the maps and Zerg representation. The only other zerg to make it far was Yarc and Nada stopped him.
I think Mynock's wall of text was more of a joke than anything else. I don't know if I'm right, but it just seems over-the-top to me.
Also, Zergman made it to quarterfinals and lost 1-2 just as Yarnc did (admittedly to a less qualified opponent, but now we all know his TvZ is pretty damn good). But yeah, savior will probably still be #1.
Bias is ok. As long as it's not "Power Rank" but "DJEtterStyle Power Rank". But we all know what it is, so I think everyone's just calm about it. That's ok. But for fuck's sake discussing Midas' fellatio skills is not what should be on the front page, neither PLEASE LOSE nor Good-fucking-Friend. That's plain improfessional. And if it is planned to be an amateur rating, what the hell is it doing on the front page? That is where I agree with Mynock completely. Some might find that funny, but I guess TL.net shouldn't make an orientation towards people who can't dissociate healthy humor from childish insults.
Don't overestimate your power Etter, you're good, but being humble is a virtue. Currently I can't even imagine how much poison is going to be spit on Nal_Ra after his MSL semis.
On February 22 2007 21:10 Last Romantic wrote: If NaDa wins we can expect him as number 1 :D super.
Doubtful. If Savior wins even one final, I've got to keep him at #1. But if he loses both finals and Nada just plain outclasses him, we just might have a new name at that top spot...
On February 23 2007 00:40 MaGic~PhiL wrote: that is because the ranking is about current force/power if it was about all time or last 2-3 years it would be NaDa, anyway..
2 years? 2 years ago, Nada won Iops and was finalist in MSL agaisnt Gorush. Then he failed to qualify for a year and a half, for any osl or msl. He came back in pringles 2 and Shinan 2, was eliminated early in the first and won the second.
During that time, Savior won 3 msl and was finalist once.
Things are not as simple as you're making them look like. =)
On February 23 2007 00:40 MaGic~PhiL wrote: that is because the ranking is about current force/power if it was about all time or last 2-3 years it would be NaDa, anyway..
On February 22 2007 21:10 Last Romantic wrote: If NaDa wins we can expect him as number 1 :D super.
Doubtful. If Savior wins even one final, I've got to keep him at #1. But if he loses both finals and Nada just plain outclasses him, we just might have a new name at that top spot...
agreed with this (after the fact haha considering it's been played)
but the only way i would have moved savior out of the #1 spot would be if he lost both finals in a poor fashion (if he lost both but it was close series he'd still be #1)
that's what i'm thinking right now, based off of OSL at least. midas might drop lower than nada, or even casy, but definitely still within top 5 given how well he could fight savior and how poorly nada did against savior. as for casy....that 3-0 left much to be desired
On February 26 2007 08:50 GrandInquisitor wrote: 1. Savior 2. IriS 3. Midas 4. NaDa 5. Casy
that's what i'm thinking right now, based off of OSL at least. midas might drop lower than nada, or even casy, but definitely still within top 5 given how well he could fight savior and how poorly nada did against savior. as for casy....that 3-0 left much to be desired
next time Iris has to be on the list, he fucking impressed me especially against savior AND casy, I am really expecting much from him in his near future... honestly I didn't expect him to be that good O_o
Savior - Iris - Definately imo February's 2nd hottest player. Nada - Yeah, definately third... depends. If Bisu does a 2-3 vs Savior, I'd gladly move Nada down. Bisu - Regardless of MSL finals, he'd beat Casy -__-;; and he made it to a finals. Casy - Man... way to blow up... again. Hwasin - 3-2 vs Savior? Not bad. Interchangable. Midas - Sucker. Yarc - Whatever, you want more T's? Boxer...
On February 28 2007 16:23 Wasabi wrote: lol now Nada as 9th is just laughable. Nobody saw Nada managing to reach the finals, eh?
On February 06 2007 15:33 SiZ.FaNtAsY wrote: 9.Nada What's the curse again? Wtf is a curse Nada? I know, you never experienced it ^^. Even though he struggled early in the OSL, come on~~ He dominated the wildcards, and now dominated all the terrans in the OSL. Now, many people say Casy is the favorite, but I think Nada is. Why? This OSL is full of terran, and even though they were crappy opponents his record in TvT effin owns. Nada is my bet. That is if Savior is eliminated ^^.
Seeing Nada in this OSL finals was like trying to predict Casy in OSL finals on the first Shinhan. They were not looking that strong until WildCards and after.
On March 01 2007 05:10 SuperJongMan wrote: Seeing Nada in this OSL finals was like trying to predict Casy in OSL finals on the first Shinhan. They were not looking that strong until WildCards and after.
Oh stop it already -_-
I said NaDa vs SaviOr finals and look how off I was? Not really. Yeah call me a fanboy, whatever.
Thing is, there are people who believe and those who don't. You don't, we get it already, really.
NaDa still rulz tho. And I believe. Denying his skill is just laughable.
I didn't deny anything. I said it's hard to predict Nada in the finals.
There are so many reasons I can give for this including his less spectacular victories compared to a lot of others who were showing heat, including Midas.
He was last OSL's winner so you rarely expect a repeat performance. He did something unheard of 6 years, who woulda predicted that? I'm saying your prediction seems more unreasonable than mine. And I never ragged on your boy so let it go.
On March 01 2007 05:44 SuperJongMan wrote: I didn't deny anything. I said it's hard to predict Nada in the finals.
There are so many reasons I can give for this including his less spectacular victories compared to a lot of others who were showing heat, including Midas.
He was last OSL's winner so you rarely expect a repeat performance. He did something unheard of 6 years, who woulda predicted that? I'm saying your prediction seems more unreasonable than mine. And I never ragged on your boy so let it go.
I said nothing untrue.
It's hard to predict anything and there's no criteria to judge whose prediction is "more reasonable" or "less reasonable". It's all mental masturbation. Just look at Etter's writing -- he has horrible prediction power and yet he can justify everything he says. Discussion here isn't about getting close to the truth of things at all. It's all about making it seem like you know what you're talking about. The underlying reason why people are here is for love of the game and this mindless babble is just one manifestation of it. It doesn't mean there's any value to any of it.
On March 01 2007 05:44 SuperJongMan wrote: I didn't deny anything. I said it's hard to predict Nada in the finals.
There are so many reasons I can give for this including his less spectacular victories compared to a lot of others who were showing heat, including Midas.
He was last OSL's winner so you rarely expect a repeat performance. He did something unheard of 6 years, who woulda predicted that? I'm saying your prediction seems more unreasonable than mine. And I never ragged on your boy so let it go.
I said nothing untrue.
It's hard to predict anything and there's no criteria to judge whose prediction is "more reasonable" or "less reasonable". It's all mental masturbation. Just look at Etter's writing -- he has horrible prediction power and yet he can justify everything he says. Discussion here isn't about getting close to the truth of things at all. It's all about making it seem like you know what you're talking about. The underlying reason why people are here is for love of the game and this mindless babble is just one manifestation of it. It doesn't mean there's any value to any of it.
You're missing the point. Sports are fun to watch because they're unpredictable; on any day, due to any combination of things, one team or individual can beat another team or individual. That's why we keep watching. The point, then, isn't to be clairvoyant: it's to be intelligent and reasonable in your assessment of the situation. Consider this completely hypothetical football example:
Football Guy: "If it rains on Sunday, as is predicted, I give the Ravens great odds to take this game. They've got a big, fast defense that can handle the muck much, much better than the Chargers offense, and because the Raven offense is run-based, they've got the advantage there, too."
Now if the Ravens do not, in fact, have a "big, fast defense," the Chargers have an equally competent defense, the Ravens offense isn't as dependant upon the run as Football Guy would like to believe, or the Chargers offense is just that good, we end up with a lot of points of pre-game debate. And the fact that Football Guy imported the weather as a potential factor is an interesting addition to the debate, no matter if you agree with the rest of his statement or not.
But let's say it rains and the Chargers still win. Does that mean that Football Guy was any less right in his assessment? Of course not. Maybe the Chargers manager, who always previously valued skill over conditioning, ran his guys ragged in practice in anticipation of the bad weather, or maybe the Ravens runningback got injured in the first quarter. There are too many factors that go into any particular sporting event to pinpoint exactly what went right or wrong, which is why you don't see professional sports writers saying, "neener neener neener look at last week when my team won and yours lost lol ur bad at ur job !!~!!~!11~!"
The "value" to pre-game discussion is that it makes people think critically about a game that they love. It, ideally, forces them to look past who they want to win and justify, at least to themselves, who they think is actually going to win and what it's going to take for their favorite players to win. Increased understanding of a sport almost always makes it more enjoyable to watch, because you see things that others simply don't, and discussion of maps and matchups and players does just that: increases understanding of professional StarCraft. It's all in the name of making this spectator sport more fun and accessible.
Anyway: the new Power Rank will be up shortly after the MSL finals, and nothing but Bisu's position will be affected. His fate is in his hands!
as much as I dislike savior, I still think it an iffy propostion at best to bump him out of #1
Regardless:
1. Savior (mayyyyyyyyyybe Bisu if you want to consider how amazing 3-0ing best PvPer and best PvZer is, and how close Savior was to losing to Hwasin/IriS/Midas, but I think we should still respect him enough to leave him #1) 2. Bisu 3. IriS (Played better against Savior than NaDa did, that's for sure, and humiliated Casy) 4-8. Casy/Midas/NaDa/Hwasin
1. Savior (you just have to consider last few months with the superfight etc.) 2. Bisu 3. Iris (same reasons as GI) 4. NaDa 5. Casy 6. Hwasin 7 - 10 (Midas/Ra/Yarnc/Zergman/Much/FBH)
I almost don't know if Midas should even be on the list at all, but I really do feel that Iris should be high than Nada. Nada's play was just terrible in the final, whereas Iris nearly beat Savior and absolutely DISMANTLED Casy. Wasabi, Casy should definitely be higher than Midas. It's kinda hard to decide where to put any of the zergs who arent savior and any of the tosses who aren't bisu.