Power Rank 03/03/2007 - Page 11

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MaGic~PhiL Germany. March 19 2007 08:38. Posts 6812

i didnt realize u only ment wasabis ''will lose'' stuff..
as i said twice already.. savior and NaDa are imho both first place right now.. ; D

Last edit: 2007-03-19 08:41:21

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Wasabi United States. March 19 2007 09:17. Posts 3085

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Hot_Bid Administrator March 19 2007 13:52.

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wasabi i don't see how this win suddenly justifies nada jumping over someone who had just beaten nada in a far more important series (OSL Finals) and on much more balanced maps.

let's see nada beat savior in a bo5 with july, yarnc, and savior picking 3 of the 4 maps instead of what happened at shinhan masters?

nada played impressively and much better than he did before vs savior, but OSL finals are just so much more important. this win, factoring in the maps, should have the same weight as superfight3 if it wasn't for the more impressive nada win over iris.

i agree nada should move up, likely above iris, but to put him above the msl or osl winners is placing far too much weight on this result.

it was a very solid invite tournament TvT win and almost an expected TvZ win on TvZ maps even better than the OSL ones. how can you see that as more important than an entire OSL or MSL? Savior. Bisu. Nada. In that order.

Last edit: 2007-03-19 13:56:28

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Wasabi United States. March 19 2007 14:17. Posts 3085

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Mynock March 19 2007 14:32. Posts 4491

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On March 19 2007 13:52 Hot_Bid wrote:
wasabi i don't see how this win suddenly justifies nada jumping over someone who had just beaten nada in a far more important series (OSL Finals) and on much more balanced maps.

let's see nada beat savior in a bo5 with july, yarnc, and savior picking 3 of the 4 maps instead of what happened at shinhan masters?

nada played impressively and much better than he did before vs savior, but OSL finals are just so much more important. this win, factoring in the maps, should have the same weight as superfight3 if it wasn't for the more impressive nada win over iris.

i agree nada should move up, likely above iris, but to put him above the msl or osl winners is placing far too much weight on this result.

it was a very solid invite tournament TvT win and almost an expected TvZ win on TvZ maps even better than the OSL ones. how can you see that as more important than an entire OSL or MSL? Savior. Bisu. Nada. In that order.

Dude... weak.

I mean, seriously... Let me rephrase what you just said in a sentence:

"sAviOr wasn't trying and the maps were gay"

I keep repeating it to you over and over, and you just keep denying it over and over again. Event after event I'm telling you how NaDa can win this and that and then he just goes and does it. Event after event you keep digging up names who NaDa hasn't played against yet, point at them and say "well THAT GUY would surely smack NaDa's ass if they ever play!!" I don't know what kind of grudge you have against NaDa (I just never really understood anti-fan attitude anyway), but I believe you should reconsider where you stand on the matter, because I think you're kinda missing the point of what BW is all about...

A couple more things rendering your arguments kinda pointless:

-sAviOr got his ass handed to him on the map he himself picked.
-How many people were crying about how sAviOr only lost to Bisu because he had no time to prepare between the finals? Well NaDa played two different MU BO5s on the same day and raped both his opponents silly. Do you know why? Cause he CAN.

-Mynock

Last edit: 2007-03-19 14:40:29

Hot_Bid Administrator March 19 2007 14:40.

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i dont think you understood what i said...

casy, iris, and nada each chose one of the shinhan masters maps, thats why the pool was 815/arkanoid/RLT/peaks not longinus/ark/RLT/hh

i was just naming zerg players as an example, like what if the 4 shinhan masters were 3 zerg and 1 terran and they chose 4 z>t maps instead of the ones chosen? is it a surprise that there are very few maps in the shinhan OSLs that are not t>z? or that 3 of the 4 people in the invite are terran?

PS - way to act like an idiot, i didn't attack you in my post i just outlined an argument, yet you come in all angry and condescending and you didn't even carefully read my post to see why i mentioned those other zerg players. i even said it should be savior-bisu-nada, i didn't even mention the other zergs except as examples for choosing maps.

On March 19 2007 14:17 Wasabi wrote:
Yeah, you just had to post something, do you?
...
Yeah, go, find holes in whatever I just said and counter it, right? I won't bother arguing after this post, really. Arguing over freaking progamers is like a retard marathon.

my argument was that the shinhan masters maps were even more t>z than the OSL finals, and it's not a surprise nada could win on 3 z>>>t maps and 1 z>=t map. remember superfight3, the map pack was arcadia, arkanoid, blitz, tau? where arkanoid was the "terran map" in that pack, where nada was supposed to win? now arkanoid is the "zerg map" lol. it just shows how tilted the maps are and how impressive savior's OSL win and win over casy are.

please gain some basic reading comprehension before pressing post ok?

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Hot_Bid Administrator March 19 2007 14:44.

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On March 19 2007 14:32 Mynock wrote:

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Dude... weak.

I mean, seriously... Let me rephrase what you just said in a sentence:

"sAviOr wasn't trying and the maps were gay"

mynock, i didn't say savior wasn't trying, i even said nada played much better than he did during OSL finals and should be moved ahead of iris, contrary to what i thought earlier =P and my post was mainly about placement between nada/savior/bisu in the PR, not about shinhan masters as you nicely summarized in your one inaccurate sentence.

i just don't think shinhan masters win on these maps should overrule the OSL finals win by savior or MSL finals win by bisu, you really want to disagree with that? thats just like saying we should put savior ahead of everyone because he won the superfights. its NOT AS IMPORTANT.

you are overly harsh on me i believe, i am not a nada anti-fan and i never made all those excuses you attribute to the masses =( i mean, "missing the point of what BW is about"? i think you take a look at the last 1000 posts and threads ive created and you really think im missing the spirit of progaming competition?

i basically agreed with you that nada should be moved up but not above the big league winners, is it really that biased? i dont recall every constantly arguing with you about nada or doing any of those things in that big paragraph you wrote.

i think you were just looking to jump on me for something, but w/e.

also, what map would you have picked if you were savior facing 3 possible zvts? there are very slim pickings for Z in the Shinhan starleagues, and its no surprise it was 3 terrans and 1 zerg in the final masters.

Last edit: 2007-03-19 14:51:38

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Mynock March 19 2007 14:59. Posts 4491

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No I wasn't trying to jump on you, that was not the point at all. I just want you to see for yourself how your arguments don't even work. You're denying the greatest player (both statistically, and arguably overall style-wise) player ever to play BW his skills. I don't understand why that is at all, especially since the PowerRank is supposedly to determine the MOMENTUM a player has. To determine the hottest player. When Bisu loses to Casy, and Casy loses to sAviOr, and both sAviOr and IriS lose to NaDa, I don't really think the MSL and OSL seem all that important in determining who's the King of the Hill ATM. And if it is, NaDa was second in OSL. That, and his current performance doesn't place him above Bisu and IriS?

We've been through the same stuff already with IriS at the beginning of the month, now what happened since then? A powerhouse that is IriS, he who tore through GoRush, Midas, Goodfriend - he was defeated easily by NaDa, who then went on to rape the strongest player to date.

And you come up with "i agree nada should move up, likely above iris"? What is the unlikely scenario then, in which he doesn't move up above IriS? Like I said, this is a weak argumentation.

NaDa WAS above IriS according to my arguments in the begin of the month already. Phil is the one in the right here the most - sAviOr and NaDa are tied right now in terms of sheer power. Others are not even close. And Bisu is a big question mark which will either straighten up into an exclamation one, or shrink to a dot the last day of this month.

-Mynock

Hot_Bid Administrator March 19 2007 15:07.

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i disagree that nada was above iris earlier this month. iris definitely had more momentum, power, whatever. now? nada has proven differently and should be moved up. i already said i agreed with this, i don't understand why you continue to bring it up.

the fact that we're contesting about 3 slots, you're arguing for 1.savior/nada and 2. bisu and i'm arguing for 1.savior 2. bisu 3. nada, it's really close... PR is for an entire month and we can't base it solely on one event right? the three most recent things are OSL finals, MSL finals, and this invite tourney. are we supposed to just forget what happened and go with these results, on clearly biased maps, as the sole indicator of player strength?

again, we are REALLY CLOSE in opinion. all the hyperbole about anti-fans and personal attacks aren't necessary.

how is this:

not jumping on me? i didn't even do ANY of those things you said in that paragraph lol

mynock just because someone disagrees with you slightly doesn't mean they do not understand what the spirit of competition is.

Last edit: 2007-03-19 15:10:32

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Mynock March 19 2007 15:25. Posts 4491

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I so hate arguing with staff members on (really) trivial matters.

It all ends up in peace talks over secure channels anyways, which is no different this time around either.

OK, I got your point and will consider it. But please do consider mine as well. Unless we're in disagreement that the PR should depict the possibilities of the players to achieve results, as opposed to depictig their already earned results based on the previous month's performance.

Edit: In light of above paragraph it seemed to me that you were suggesting that Bisu would prevail over NaDa were they face now, since his MSL win suggests so. Hence you want him to be above NaDa, since according to you, Bisu has more momentum. If that was not your implication I humbly withdraw my statement. However then I don't understand what your reasoning for keeping Bisu at #2 is.

-Mynock

Last edit: 2007-03-19 15:28:25

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New York City. March 19 2007 16:19. Posts 8378

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You can't judge Bisu vs NaDa based on their performance against Savior because it's TWO DIFFERENT MATCHUPS. All we know is, Bisu is better at PvZ vs savior than NaDa is at PvZ vs savior, and a child could have told you that. What was the last PvT Bisu played or TvP NaDa played?

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Last Romantic United States. March 19 2007 17:12. Posts 20301

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NaDa's PvZ is actually not bad XD his PvT better I think.

I haven't seen Bisu's other races.

But if they were to play all 9 MU, I think NaDa would come ahead ^^; not that it matters.

On March 18 2007 23:56 ManaBlue wrote:
Savior is simply being hit by the OSL curse. We all know better than to deny it's power after seeing it happen time and time again.

Savior will need time to recover now.

OSL curse to justify power ranking doesn't work, really. Also, NaDa demolished that thing, so it's over and done with.

I want to wait till after superfight 5 to make better decision. At the moment, I think NaDa's 3-1s are pretty convincing, whereas sAviOr's 0-3 and 1-3 are pretty ugly. However, sAviOr DID 3-1 Casy [who is arguably not doing that well b/c of 0-3 vs Iris] which is a solid achievement.

It's such a rock paper scissors thing.

However, NaDa's win over sAviOr was really quite convincing. All three wins of NaDa were incredibly one sided, even the one on Arkanoid.

As for the whole thing about T>>>>>Z maps, I don't think so. 815 and RT may be bad, like 60-40, but peaks is about 50%, and Arkanoid is HEAVILY Z favored at well over 70/80 % for Z.

It works out to be about even. Now if the maps were NFZ, HoV, Neo Jungle Story perhaps you could argue map imba is good reason for the results.

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vnlegend United States. March 19 2007 19:35. Posts 1384

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Nada's wins over Iris and Savior were convincing. But I think he had an advantage in the finals because he was able to rest while Savior played. He also saw how Casy beat Savior with a bunker rush on 815, which is the same strategy that he later used.

The maps in the Shinhan masters were definitely favored for the T. Since 3 Terrans came, they obviously would pick maps that favor them. There's no point in even arguing this. You just don't pick maps that wouldn't favor you. Unfortunately, for Zergs, New Peaks couldn't give any advantage to Zerg at all. This shows how nicely balanced the maps are.

815 is extremely bad because there's only 1 gas, cheap for m/m and severely limit Zerg's choices. RLT is also T favored. Arkanoid is Z favored only at the lower levels of play, not at the highest levels. Both Nada and Iris were able to beat Savior on this map. Zerg depends on a way to hold off the Terran until their tech kicks in.

On Arkanoid, the Terran has an easy way to expand and can open any of 3 fronts, effectively negating any sunken stalling by the Zerg. It also makes any ling backstab basically impossible because of the narrow paths and Terran can simply control all the opened passages. I think this was the reason that Savior didn't make mutas and instead felt he needed to get lurkers and early defilers. I thought mutas would've been better on this map, though Savior maybe couldn't get them in time. The lack of an early spire and scourges allowed Nada to accumlate vessels and wear him down, despite Savior's swarm stall.

Lately Savior's strategy has been changing though. He doesn't build sunkens anymore, probably because Terrans are figuring out his tech timings, and instead prefers to make zerglings, which can both attack and defend. A lot of people call him stupid for not having sunkens, but sunkens are static defense. It's like stalling and waiting to die to tanks. So given the same amount of minerals, I think zerglings are a better choice for open maps than sunkens.

It will be interesting to see how Savoir adapts to the new Terran changes.

Marines > everything

Last Romantic United States. March 19 2007 19:52. Posts 20301

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no-sunken would be nice and all if you had an infinite amount of larvae. basically, while lings might be slightly more mineral cost efficient if your control is good, two lings is still going to be a weaker investment larvae-wise than one sunken. so even if you mass up 24 lings instead of getting 3 sunkens, that's 8 larvae instead of 3 - main reason why sunken line is made [IMO]

there's also that nasty thing about firebat/medic control shredding zerglings.

I think this phase, like NaDa's no-turret style and always-SK-Terran style, will fade in time.

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~chut~ France. March 20 2007 02:19. Posts 1123

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On March 19 2007 09:17 Wasabi wrote:

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Obviously, you have no grasp of OSL history and what happens to players after they win.
Yes, I somewhat don't like Savior, but I don't let it get in the way to be irrational about it.

I've been following progaming since Boxer's win over Yellow in coca cola OSL... I remember live reports on bw.com, Mensrea as a newser there even before tl.net existed. I think i do have a grasp of osl history. I know the curse. But i also know that to say "i'm sure it will happen, put him down the pr NOW" is irrational bullshit.
It is not because almost every player hit a wall after an osl win that it is meant to be.
Boxer didn't. July didn't really (lost twice in ro8). Nada, last osl, well, he did at first, but he was given a chance to qualify and he made it to the finals.
You have no clue about Savior, neither do i, so wait and see what happens before stating his slump as a fact.

rgfdxm United States. March 20 2007 09:52. Posts 215

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The difficulty in assessing Nada and Savior's results from the Shinhan Masters is that the maps were unquestionably T>>Z overall. When the player favored by maps wins, how can you possibly decide whether he actually is better? Given this situation, I don't see how reasonable people cannot accept slight differences in the top few rankings. When the maps are balanced, argue away. But we'll never know how the games would have gone with a different map pool.

The argument in favor of Savior is that we have seen Savior vs Nada on different maps, and that was the Superfight and the OSL finals. The argument in favor of Nada is that that was then, and this is now (especially the Superfight, it's been a while since that).

Let's look at the two: while Nada may have lost on T>=Z maps in the OSL finals, he did just rape the best ZvTer the game has ever seen. Taking a slightly longer view, Nada 1st and 2nd placed the last two OSLs and then avenged his loss in the second (and beating Iris was no small feat).

Savior, in very recent history, 1st placed an OSL, 2nd placed an MSL, and took out every single damn TvZer there is. He lost one match to a terran, who he did just beat, but this time on worse maps.

For those who still think that Arkanoid is a Z map, your information is flat-out wrong. Out of date. We had some evidence of a trend that way from this map stats thread, but we're talking TvZ 4:6, and remember that half of those wins were Savior and Yellow[Arnc]. Not exactly a convincing sample. From the recent PSL results, we have a much nicer sample with many more players and many more games. Thanks to SonuvBob for linking this in the PSL thread:

Notice that 37:15 in the TvZ for Arkanoid. 71.2% for T is pretty damn convincing.

Given the results we have, I think Nada/Bisu/Savior in any combination for top three is reasonable. Regardless of your specific top three configuration, I would hope that anyone can see that. If you want a more clear-cut answer, stop yelling at each other and go yell at OGN for making shitty maps.

Last edit: 2007-03-20 10:18:19

Mynock March 20 2007 10:26. Posts 4491

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I'm starting to puke from all this maps talk...

Let me clarify a few things:

1 - The oh-so-horrible RLT: sAviOr won both his ZvT encounters on it this Shinhan Masters, as well as both his semi-final and final encounters in the OSL (against NaDa and IriS) - that is 4-0 counting ONLY the most important and most recent matches - kinda makes you think, what if the guy likes that map? Also remember, the map was chosen by IriS - CJ represent. So yeah, (this is where you turn on) an extremely unbalanced pick that so highly contributed to sAviOr's demise (and this is where you turn off your sarcasm detectors).

2 - Neo Arkanoid is NaDa's playground - an obvious decision from him, and a mandatory win. sAviOr and IriS previously stated they think this map is good for Z tho. That's their opinion, but the stats say that sAviOr demolished Casy here, and also the most balanced game of the finals occurred here as well.

3 - Peaks were sAviOr's choice. And while he showed how to destroy Casy on it, he had absolutely nothing against NaDa's excellent strategy (idea) and tactics (execution) in his game vs him. sAviOr's choice, sAviOr's fall.

4 - 815 III was Casy's pick, as he really likes this one - and he managed to get the win out of it, even if only barely. And while I agree map balanced played an important role in the Casy vs sAviOr game 1, it was nothing at all in the NaDa vs sAviOr game - NaDa did a bunker rush ffs - there was no time for the map to express any balance issues at all. Not the lack of early second gas, not the secluded expansions, not the narrow ramps making it harder for lurkers to move - NONE of that!

So to sum things up: NaDa claimed an early victory on on 815 and Peaks, and he did so because he played better, and would have done so all of his games, did he not a) play Arkanoid and b) try and early exp on RLT - which you just don't fuckin' do against sAviOr.

It's really, that easy.

-Mynock

rgfdxm United States. March 20 2007 10:53. Posts 215

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I was under the impression that if every zerg under the sun loses on RLT, but Savior wins, then that means Savior is really fucking good. You seem to think it means that Savior likes the map so it doesn't count. Regardless, you are right that Savior got outplayed, but don't try to stretch that point too far or it'll break. Outplaying him doesn't change the fact that the maps were unpleasant.

Yes, it is absolutely the case that Nada did just rape the best ZvTer ever, maps notwithstanding. You can see that in my above post, I said as much, almost word for word.

What my point was about the maps seems not to have been clear enough, so let me elucidate: In a situation with unbalanced maps, the person who is favored has to put up more results and play more convincingly than normal in order to earn his place. If two players are somewhat close in skill but one is better, say 55%-45%, but the maps are perhaps 40%-60%, the better player might lose most of the games. Groundbreaking conclusion, I know. But as obvious as that is, the implications are inescapable. If we know the maps suck, and the favored player is winning, we can't give him the credit he would deserve unless he wins a fucking lot. Sucks if he was the better player all along, but if he's better and has nice maps, he really should be winning enough to prove it.

Simply put, Savior's win in the OSL finals was more impressive than Nada's win in the Shinhan Masters, just from a maps perspective. If you don't like that, then as I said before, your problem is with OGN, not all the "Nada-haters" you see around you. They're the ones who are making it hard for Nada to get the recognition he deserves. Oh yeah, and Nada himself too, for losing the OSL finals.

Last edit: 2007-03-20 10:58:42

Guybrush Spain. March 20 2007 12:04. Posts 4743

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Nada played really really good against Iris, and also good against Savior(but those games werent nearly as impressing as the wins against Iris where he dominated, and was very close to 3-0ing him.

The problem is only one of the wins against Savior was straight up. He bunkered him first game and proxy fac'd him the 3rd. And while the micro and multitask was impressing in game 2 he disturbed Savior alot with his first M&M rush.

The question is if Nadas ownage against Iris and win against Savior can be compared to Saviors matches against Casy which were absolutely amazing. Rape on Peaks after a pretty bad start and defiler-rape on RLT, and July-style on Arkanoid.

Surely Nada deserves to get #2, but this isnt due to Bisus loss against Casy(which imo is totally irrelevant), but rather him being overall impressing in his matches lately. Iris shouldnt be moved away from 4th even though he lost against Nada. As mentioned he had an impressive route on the way to top4, and in this in addition to Nada playing close to perfect against him, is good enough reason to keep him there.

I guess alot of answers will be answered in the upcoming Superfight, where Savior has raped every time he's participated (#1,#3 and #4). Midas definitely has something to prove if he's chosen to play in that.

Live2Win is awesome. Happy new year scarabi!

MaGic~PhiL Germany. March 20 2007 12:37. Posts 6812

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Seriously.. its obviously NaDa and Savior at 1 OR Savior at 1 , NaDa at 2 and Bisu at 3. Right now NaDa and Savior look both very powerful. Savior is slumping a bit lately and losing.. but before these few games he was the total powerhouse and NaDa did do good as always just not win everything he could ( nearly he did, after all.. ) . So imho it would be a wise choice to put NaDa and savior both at nr.1 and bisu at 2. Savior at 3 and so on. =)

PhiL

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