Power Rank 03/03/2007
Forum Index > Polls & Liquibet |
Aurious
Canada1772 Posts
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Wasabi
United States3085 Posts
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SCNewb
Canada2210 Posts
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KizZBG
u gotta skate8152 Posts
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mikeymoo
Canada7170 Posts
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pOOwarrior-
United States518 Posts
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
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Diablo666
United States306 Posts
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narreth
Canada124 Posts
On March 03 2007 19:56 Diablo666 wrote: Midas higher than nada ? cmon... | ||
Wasabi
United States3085 Posts
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Pressure
7326 Posts
bisu earned 1 bisu has a higher win % than savior now i like the list - Edit | ||
ATeddyBear
Canada2843 Posts
On March 03 2007 20:11 Pressure wrote: amen new power rank! bisu earned 1 bisu has a higher win % than savior now i like the list - Edit nawwwww. nice rankings i liked the other savior pic better tho | ||
Last Romantic
United States20661 Posts
On March 03 2007 20:11 Pressure wrote: amen new power rank! bisu earned 1 bisu has a higher win % than savior now i like the list - Edit He had higher win % before finals too. 70% vs 69.9% [serious!] Those rankings look about right. I'd put NaDa above Midas and Iris, and rA and Casy lower than Hwasin, but whatever. These are my favorite so far I suppose. sAviOr needs to get off top 1 spot tho :D | ||
muramasa
Canada1299 Posts
Anyone who says Bisu deserves the #1 spot is dead wrong. He raped sAviOr, sure, but it was only one bo5. sAviOr still won the OSL and came second in the MSL, defeating thousands to Terrans on the way. | ||
muramasa
Canada1299 Posts
On March 03 2007 20:30 Last Romantic wrote: This means nothing. NaDa had a better win percentage than sAviOr too. The sample sizes aren't even close, sAviOr has played like 4x more games than either of them.He had higher win % before finals too. 70% vs 69.9% [serious!] | ||
Last Romantic
United States20661 Posts
On March 03 2007 20:46 muramasa wrote: This means nothing. NaDa had a better win percentage than sAviOr too. The sample sizes aren't even close, sAviOr has played like 4x more games than either of them. NaDa's played several dozen times as many games as sAviOr, I don't know where you're getting that. My statement wasn't serious though. Even if it was a several thousand sample size, .1% wouldn't mean anything in SC. | ||
oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
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KizZBG
u gotta skate8152 Posts
On March 03 2007 20:53 oneofthem wrote: if savior and bisu play 100 games, who would win more? q The winner! :D But seriously, I don't know. | ||
muramasa
Canada1299 Posts
On March 03 2007 20:48 Last Romantic wrote: NaDa's played several dozen times as many games as sAviOr, I don't know where you're getting that. My statement wasn't serious though. Even if it was a several thousand sample size, .1% wouldn't mean anything in SC. The stats that they used during the OSL for NaDa were presumably only from after he re-emerged from his epic slump, because the total number of games was lower than sAviOr's. I apologize for misinterpreting you. | ||
knyttym
United States5797 Posts
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Myxomatosis
United States2392 Posts
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azndsh
United States4447 Posts
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
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Guybrush
Spain4744 Posts
Agree on the rest of the list except I would have switched Nada and Midas spots with each other. | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On March 03 2007 20:30 Last Romantic wrote: How would you put nada ahead of iris?He had higher win % before finals too. 70% vs 69.9% [serious!] Those rankings look about right. I'd put NaDa above Midas and Iris, and rA and Casy lower than Hwasin, but whatever. These are my favorite so far I suppose. sAviOr needs to get off top 1 spot tho :D iris 3-0'd casy and 2-3'd savior, Nada, 3-2'd casy and 1-3'd savior Iris clearly is better imo =/ and generated the better games imo | ||
SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
Don't ever call my boy Hwasin II again. He always has nasty nicks cuz of his inconsistancy. Just wait til next OSL, call him Hwasin again and you will die. That 3-0 to Iris was whatever. -_-;;. Never will it happen again. Losing to Nada was a bigger dissappointment to me, I didnt even finish watching Iris Casy. | ||
DeadVessel
United States6269 Posts
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EvilTeletubby
Baltimore, USA22219 Posts
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Cpt Obvious
Germany3073 Posts
It sure isn't easy to choose the spots for players that played on terribly balanced maps or maybe only their worst matchups or whatever other reasons there are for players not showing their best play. Please keep it up, it's a nice monthly summary for what's going on overall in OSL/MSL and the like. | ||
alffla
Hong Kong20321 Posts
On March 04 2007 03:04 Cpt Obvious wrote: I get the impression these power rankings are getting more and more accurate from month to month. It sure isn't easy to choose the spots for players that played on terribly balanced maps or maybe only their worst matchups or whatever other reasons there are for players not showing their best play. Please keep it up, it's a nice monthly summary for what's going on overall in OSL/MSL and the like. i think it gets more and more accurate as the months have gone by due to the fact that there are less and less players actually playing in leagues as everyone gets eliminated and it becomes easier to discern the players skill from each other. but still i liked this power rank! thank you dj~ | ||
BluzMan
Russian Federation4235 Posts
As for the actual standings, I'd remove Light and get Yarnc into the list. Otherwise, it's really good. | ||
tomatriedes
New Zealand5356 Posts
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Asakura
Germany471 Posts
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himurakenshin
Canada1845 Posts
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pyrogenetix
United Arab Emirates5090 Posts
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ManaBlue
Canada10458 Posts
No close but no cigar list though? That's usually my favourite part. | ||
LemOn
United Kingdom8629 Posts
On March 03 2007 20:53 oneofthem wrote: if savior and bisu play 100 games, who would win more? q Bisu 100-0, 3000 drone kills with 150 DT's. | ||
KissBlade
United States5718 Posts
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Jathin
United States3505 Posts
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PROMETHEUS
France9 Posts
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GoBOXERgogo
664 Posts
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Yogurt
United States4258 Posts
my fav 3 pros are 1 2 and 3 respectively | ||
ManaBlue
Canada10458 Posts
On March 04 2007 13:16 Yogurt wrote: thats weird my fav 3 pros are 1 2 and 3 respectively You like Iris? Weirdo. j/k | ||
RawkusTk
Korea (South)28 Posts
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RawkusTk
Korea (South)28 Posts
I think he deserves 3rd place. | ||
RawkusTk
Korea (South)28 Posts
In 2007, Nada has 16 wins and 7 loss 2007-02-24 신한은행 스타리그 2006 시즌3 네오알카노이드 이윤열 마재윤 2007-02-24 신한은행 스타리그 2006 시즌3 리버스템플 마재윤 이윤열 2007-02-24 신한은행 스타리그 2006 시즌3 롱기누스2 마재윤 이윤열 2007-02-24 신한은행 스타리그 2006 시즌3 히치하이커 마재윤 이윤열 2007-02-14 신한은행 스타리그 2006 시즌3 롱기누스2 한동욱 이윤열 2007-02-14 신한은행 스타리그 2006 시즌3 네오알카노이드 이윤열 한동욱 2007-02-14 신한은행 스타리그 2006 시즌3 네오알카노이드 이윤열 한동욱 2007-02-14 신한은행 스타리그 2006 시즌3 히치하이커 이윤열 한동욱 2007-02-14 신한은행 스타리그 2006 시즌3 리버스템플 한동욱 이윤열 2007-02-09 신한은행 스타리그 2006 시즌3 리버스템플 이윤열 박명수 2007-02-09 신한은행 스타리그 2006 시즌3 히치하이커 박명수 이윤열 2007-02-07 신한은행 스타리그 2006 시즌3 롱기누스2 이윤열 박명수 2007-02-05 MBC MOVIES 10차 서바이버 롱기누스2 이윤열 심소명 2007-02-05 MBC MOVIES 10차 서바이버 리버스템플 이윤열 심소명 2007-02-02 신한은행 스타리그 2006 시즌3 네오알카노이드 이윤열 신희승 2007-01-26 신한은행 스타리그 2006 시즌3 리버스템플 신희승 이윤열 2007-01-22 MBC MOVIES 10차 서바이버 리버스템플 이윤열 최가람 2007-01-22 MBC MOVIES 10차 서바이버 블리츠엑스 이윤열 최가람 2007-01-19 신한은행 스타리그 2006 시즌3 롱기누스2 이윤열 신희승 2007-01-12 신한은행 스타리그 2006 시즌3 롱기누스2 이윤열 이성은 2007-01-12 신한은행 스타리그 2006 시즌3 네오알카노이드 이윤열 이재호 2007-01-10 신한은행 스타리그 2006 시즌3 네오알카노이드 이윤열 이학주 2007-01-03 신한은행 스타리그 2006 시즌3 네오알카노이드 이윤열 이학주 | ||
Bond(i2)
Canada926 Posts
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mikeymoo
Canada7170 Posts
On March 04 2007 17:01 RawkusTk wrote: So is Irics[gm], does anybody remeber NADA got second place this year. Isn't it logic to put him in at least 3rd place??? He had spectacular games in WC, against Park Myung Soo, and against Shin Hee Seung as well. I think he deserves 3rd place. Savior and Bisu have to stay in those spots... and Iris sure as hell isn't moving. He played extremely well, dismantling Casy and proving he CAN TvZ. I don't think Nada has played well enough to be able to claim 3rd. However, I think he should be switched with Midas. Just for Midas being overconfident. | ||
Wezlar
Canada6 Posts
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rS.NonY
United States286 Posts
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ManaBlue
Canada10458 Posts
On March 04 2007 19:39 rS.NonY wrote: Savior's play wasn't terrible I doubt there's a protoss alive aside from Bisu that could have beaten savior in a bo5. But Bisu made him look terrible. Bisu better continue this good streak of play and start flying through tournaments, or people won't give him the credit he deserves for his title. | ||
himurakenshin
Canada1845 Posts
On March 04 2007 19:39 rS.NonY wrote: Savior's play wasn't terrible I doubt there's a protoss alive aside from Bisu that could have beaten savior in a bo5. garimtooooooooooooo | ||
HungerForMore
Afghanistan420 Posts
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
And you love it!!! | ||
Manifesto7
Osaka26925 Posts
On March 04 2007 21:27 HungerForMore wrote: How the FUCK can Midas become top 4? He barely deserves to be in the top 10. But I guess you're just a fan of him like with Anytime. These rankings are a joke. Quality post retard. He explained in clear English why Midas is there. These rankings are not a tabulation of results, that is what KESPA does. This is a list of the most powerful players around right now. Are you saying Midas is not one of the most powerful players? Nope, you are saying nothing. Try explaining yourself. | ||
cYaN
Norway3322 Posts
Nice job either way. | ||
HungerForMore
Afghanistan420 Posts
On March 05 2007 03:02 Manifesto7 wrote: Quality post retard. He explained in clear English why Midas is there. These rankings are not a tabulation of results, that is what KESPA does. This is a list of the most powerful players around right now. Are you saying Midas is not one of the most powerful players? Nope, you are saying nothing. Try explaining yourself. He wrote that it was because he couldn't compete in more than one league, so he couldn't accomplish anyting. And then he said he 2-2'ed Savior, which is great. But Nada made it to the finals (once again!), but Midas deserves to be above him because he played better vs Savior? It seems like 1-5 is based on how well they did vs Savior, but I could be wrong ofcourse. I know it isn't about accomplishments, but how can you judge his play when he only had one bo5? Because it was vs Savior it suddenly ment alot more than what Nada has accomplished? He played very well, his TvT was neat, and I assume that his TvZ most have been too since he beat Yellow[Arnc] (I have to admit I never watched that match) who played some good ZvT, but then he got owned by Savior again thus making him a worse player than Midas? I just don't see what Midas has done that make him deserve such a high spot. He didn't even do anything really memorable (except for choosing Savior and lose), unlike the others above him including Nada. It's easy to assume that he might have done well if he hadn't met Savior that early. And that Nada is so much more consistent, having made it to the final, and having owned the OSL curse, sure makes him more special than someone's best (and only) play was 2-2 vs Savior. Yeah well I just don't see what makes him deserve that spot other than he played better vs savior than Nada did... And sry for my bad english, and the messy writing, but I'm a little hurry. And please let's have debate instead of just faliming eachother and calling eachother retard, ok? Oh and I know that it's not easy to make a ranking, and have people agree and all. But honestly if Midas was just some rookie, noone would have remembered him. So forexamble if Iris had been beaten that early, not many would have paid him much attention, because he hasn't showed himself over and over like Midas has. Well I just don't understand why he can be above Nada with his poor perfomance - Therefore I found it as a joke. I know you don't agree, but that's what debating is all about. | ||
SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
The rest were lol brackets... typical nada style -_-;;. | ||
cYaN
Norway3322 Posts
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Detonate
Iceland578 Posts
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NamJangNamJa
24 Posts
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PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
On March 05 2007 05:02 SuperJongMan wrote: Imo, Nada only had one real opponant this OSL and that was Casy. The rest were lol brackets... typical nada style -_-;;. yes.. some pro gamers are simply C- guys.. NaDa had it easy you are right.. retard as if the top 20 pro gamers are so much different in terms of skill oh my god.. some people have no fucking clue NaDa might be very successful and savior might own it up right now, but all these guys are not that different skillwise.. i hate it if you talk about easy bracket IN PRO GAMING especially OSL and MSL there are NO easy opponents. Maybe easier opponents, but thats just by a little.. I still find it disturbing to see Midas abvoe NaDa.. Seriously.. Midas didnt do good lately. NaDa got 2nd in OSL, wtf do u want him to do ? D; | ||
SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
On March 05 2007 05:06 cYaN wrote: SJM: i disagree. The Yarnc vs Nada series was very good, and Yarnc played so well. O yeah... Forgot about that. I just hated the ending. ok, so Nada did fine, but Magic Phil... I say it with the utmost sincerity when I say stfu. Not even caps yo, just a nice, quiet, lower-case, stfu. | ||
HungerForMore
Afghanistan420 Posts
On March 05 2007 06:09 MaGic~PhiL wrote: I still find it disturbing to see Midas abvoe NaDa.. Seriously.. Midas didnt do good lately. NaDa got 2nd in OSL, wtf do u want him to do ? D; He has to play good versus Savior, havent you been paying attention? btw, I was being sarcastic. | ||
GoBOXERgogo
664 Posts
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
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omgbnetsux
United States3749 Posts
On March 05 2007 10:04 GoBOXERgogo wrote: Should get someone a lot smarter to do this kind of thing. This guy's bias is so fucking obvious. Just change the name from power rankings to 'Whoever the hell I like the most at this specific moment' Then again thinking about it, what is even the point of this? So we can see who one random guy likes the most? He's not qualified for anything and even if he was, who really cares in the end? We all have our own thoughts about players, and what this guy says isn't going to change anything. It's always fun discussing whose the best in anything but this certain ranking just seems pointless. How exactly does one become "qualified" to do power rankings? | ||
GoBOXERgogo
664 Posts
On March 05 2007 10:17 GrandInquisitor wrote: lol, so one player's style is better vs someone else and now he's better than someone who is consistantly better overall? Savior isn't fucking god okay? Just because your style fits well vs him (And midas still lost okay? He still lost) Doesn't mean you're better than everyone else. This is all based on such a tiny sample size and one idiot's opinion which changes like the wind. And you can't really be qualified for it. I don't think there's a reason for this to begin withAmazingly enough, there's really nothing biased here. Midas deserves his spot because he's shown he can hang with Savior much more than NaDa could, and is clearly a better TvZer. That's what this is all about - skill, not just results. | ||
GoBOXERgogo
664 Posts
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On March 05 2007 10:34 GoBOXERgogo wrote: lol, so one player's style is better vs someone else and now he's better than someone who is consistantly better overall? Savior isn't fucking god okay? Just because your style fits well vs him (And midas still lost okay? He still lost) Doesn't mean you're better than everyone else. This is all based on such a tiny sample size and one idiot's opinion which changes like the wind. And you can't really be qualified for it. I don't think there's a reason for this to begin with At the point at which we have one reference standard, I think it's safe to say that your performance against Savior is a good benchmark for your abilities overall - especially when it's the same matchup. Midas doesn't beat Savior any differently than NaDa or IriS or Hwasin tried to beat him. He didn't come up with some new way of beating Savior like Much did - it wasn't a matter of build orders, but mechanics. He did what they all tried and failed to do. He just played flat-out better against an all-around player, and I think he deserves mad props for that. Let's put it this way - if Savior had beaten everyone else 3-0 and throughly humiliated them - wouldn't you then give more credit to Midas for being the only person that went 2-2 with Savior? If you're willing to do that, why is it so outrageous to put Midas just ahead of someone that Savior really did humiliate? Moreover, it's hard to say that Midas wasn't overall better than NaDa when he lost to Savior. Midas went 3-0 in group play and pounded on everyone, whereas NaDa barely made it out of his group and won 2-1's and 3-2's into a final where he was embarrassed by Savior. Not his fault he's not allowed to play anything but OSL. | ||
RawkusTk
Korea (South)28 Posts
On March 05 2007 11:47 GrandInquisitor wrote: At the point at which we have one reference standard, I think it's safe to say that your performance against Savior is a good benchmark for your abilities overall - especially when it's the same matchup. Midas doesn't beat Savior any differently than NaDa or IriS or Hwasin tried to beat him. He didn't come up with some new way of beating Savior like Much did - it wasn't a matter of build orders, but mechanics. He did what they all tried and failed to do. He just played flat-out better against an all-around player, and I think he deserves mad props for that. Let's put it this way - if Savior had beaten everyone else 3-0 and throughly humiliated them - wouldn't you then give more credit to Midas for being the only person that went 2-2 with Savior? If you're willing to do that, why is it so outrageous to put Midas just ahead of someone that Savior really did humiliate? Moreover, it's hard to say that Midas wasn't overall better than NaDa when he lost to Savior. Midas went 3-0 in group play and pounded on everyone, whereas NaDa barely made it out of his group and won 2-1's and 3-2's into a final where he was embarrassed by Savior. Not his fault he's not allowed to play anything but OSL. Obviously u didn't watch NADA's game Wild Card game was just amazing (both were coming from behind win) and 3rd game against Seaup (which he won with only GOALIATH vs tank+Battlecrusier), all the games with Yarnc was amazing. At least watch someone's game before you criticize it Plus game against Savior doesn't mean EVERYTHING. Some players are weak to some particular players while they can be strong against other players. If you think match against Savior is everything, doesn't dat put BISU over SAVIOR????? shit doesn't make sense. This is why i hate some SAvior fans. They rate players on how well they play against Savior | ||
Hot_Bid
Braavos36362 Posts
On March 05 2007 10:04 GoBOXERgogo wrote: Should get someone a lot smarter to do this kind of thing. This guy's bias is so fucking obvious. Just change the name from power rankings to 'Whoever the hell I like the most at this specific moment' Then again thinking about it, what is even the point of this? So we can see who one random guy likes the most? He's not qualified for anything and even if he was, who really cares in the end? We all have our own thoughts about players, and what this guy says isn't going to change anything. It's always fun discussing whose the best in anything but this certain ranking just seems pointless. so why don't you just not read or post in this feature? just stfu and go away, seriously. what are you going to do, state your angry rant every month until he puts players you like up? if you think it's worthless, don't read. | ||
RawkusTk
Korea (South)28 Posts
On March 05 2007 10:04 GoBOXERgogo wrote: Should get someone a lot smarter to do this kind of thing. This guy's bias is so fucking obvious. Just change the name from power rankings to 'Whoever the hell I like the most at this specific moment' Then again thinking about it, what is even the point of this? So we can see who one random guy likes the most? He's not qualified for anything and even if he was, who really cares in the end? We all have our own thoughts about players, and what this guy says isn't going to change anything. It's always fun discussing whose the best in anything but this certain ranking just seems pointless. Yup this rank is so biassed. | ||
puLs.ReADy
Bulgaria1301 Posts
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Detonate
Iceland578 Posts
there are a lot of paradoxes on this list. The 3,4,5 spots are pretty much based on how well they did vs Savior, but at the same time Savior is still ahead of Bisu. This is a Paradox and people do not like contradictions. In a lot of peoples minds a contradiction might as well be a bias. I agree with this 2nd point, that you cant base some ones TvZ on Saviors Zerg style. Everyone has a style that they play better against, and worst against, and older players it seems certainly arent up to the task of macro zergs until they adapt. Boxer, Oov, nada, etc were used to the more aggressive zergs/low money zergs, until chojja and such came (chojja still isnt really as macro as savior) They are saying its "just one persons opinion." true, but then again he makes it so you have something to argue with, compare with, so dont be such dicks about it. Its only a small part of the front page and its not forcing you to click on it. | ||
GoBOXERgogo
664 Posts
On March 05 2007 12:15 Hot_Bid wrote: Cause I can faggot. Why don't you not talk to me ever again? kthxso why don't you just not read or post in this feature? just stfu and go away, seriously. what are you going to do, state your angry rant every month until he puts players you like up? if you think it's worthless, don't read. | ||
omgbnetsux
United States3749 Posts
On March 05 2007 12:54 GoBOXERgogo wrote: Cause I can faggot. Why don't you not talk to me ever again? kthx Very constructive post. Would read again. A+++++++ Oh and ban? kthx | ||
GoBOXERgogo
664 Posts
On March 05 2007 12:55 omgbnetsux wrote: As if I need a reason to post in this just because I think it's a waste of time. Took a whole 2 minutes to do. Who the fuck are you? Don't talk to meVery constructive post. Would read again. A+++++++ Oh and ban? kthx | ||
omgbnetsux
United States3749 Posts
On March 05 2007 13:01 GoBOXERgogo wrote: As if I need a reason to post in this just because I think it's a waste of time. Took a whole 2 minutes to do. Who the fuck are you? Don't talk to me Yeah, well mine took one minute to post. Who are you exactly? Why shouldn't you be banned? You know its coming... | ||
Wasabi
United States3085 Posts
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GoBOXERgogo
664 Posts
On March 05 2007 13:03 omgbnetsux wrote: No idea. I'm amazed I care enough to hate on something as silly as this but hey, boredom will do crazier things to you. Btw Iris ahead of Nada lol..Yeah, well mine took one minute to post. Who are you exactly? Why shouldn't you be banned? You know its coming... | ||
Orome
Switzerland11984 Posts
First of all, I do not agree with everything on the list. Even though I've ragged on Nada a lot lately, I believe he should be above Midas, and I would probably have placed Casy higher. What's ridiculous is that some of you are actually arrogant enough to say the list is bad. Etter is well known as one of the most knowledgeable people about progaming on TL, he was given the power rank because the gods of TL think he's the most qualified for the job. Do you nobodies honestly think you're remotely qualifed to call the list bad? On a pro level, Starcraft is a highly complex game, yet all of you seem to think you know much better than anyone else. Criticize the list, please, it's definitely not infallible, but don't ridicule yourself by calling it bad. | ||
GoBOXERgogo
664 Posts
On March 05 2007 13:27 Orome wrote: lol, sure. How exactly do you know if he's the most qualified? Cause he watches all the games? Yeah well so do fucking I, and you don't see me being handed anything, nor do I think I deserve it. I mean does anyone actually respect or give a flying fuck what this guy thinks? I mean really? I don't remember him having any actual connections to progaming or inside details but hey, enlighten me if he doesThis is starting to piss me off. First of all, I do not agree with everything on the list. Even though I've ragged on Nada a lot lately, I believe he should be above Midas, and I would probably have placed Casy higher. What's ridiculous is that some of you are actually arrogant enough to say the list is bad. Etter is well known as one of the most knowledgeable people about progaming on TL, he was given the power rank because the gods of TL think he's the most qualified for the job. Do you nobodies honestly think you're remotely qualifed to call the list bad? On a pro level, Starcraft is a highly complex game, yet all of you seem to think you know much better than anyone else. Criticize the list, please, it's definitely not infallible, but don't ridicule yourself by calling it bad. | ||
Myxomatosis
United States2392 Posts
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
On March 05 2007 13:30 GoBOXERgogo wrote: lol, sure. How exactly do you know if he's the most qualified? Cause he watches all the games? Yeah well so do fucking I, and you don't see me being handed anything, nor do I think I deserve it. I mean does anyone actually respect or give a flying fuck what this guy thinks? I mean really? I don't remember him having any actual connections to progaming or inside details but hey, enlighten me if he does Etter is probably a better player than you. Probably has a deeper understanding of the game than you. He ... just knows the game better. You watch the games and form retarded opinions. Etter watches games and forms reasonable yet debatable opinions. Put up your own list and write justifications if you got your panties in a wet bunch. I fuckin hate shits like you. Flat out, I can't stand so much of the idiocy in TL anymore. | ||
GoBOXERgogo
664 Posts
On March 05 2007 15:02 SuperJongMan wrote: lol, all you morons are alike. You put yourself on this high mark where only you and your little faggot friends knowing anything about BW. Sure, you have no reason to respect me or anything I say. Nor does anyone here have any reason to respect what this fag says. The way he goes about presenting his facts it's clear he's very biased towards players (I mean wtf..look at what he says about rA) He's basically a borderline dickhead. Which hey, I know I am right? but the thing is I don't have this power ranking thing, so it doesn't matter. So go ahead and generalize me as some random guy who knows nothing, I don't care. But explain why anyone should want to hear that this guy thinks.Etter is probably a better player than you. Probably has a deeper understanding of the game than you. He ... just knows the game better. You watch the games and form retarded opinions. Etter watches games and forms reasonable yet debatable opinions. Put up your own list and write justifications if you got your panties in a wet bunch. I fuckin hate shits like you. Flat out, I can't stand so much of the idiocy in TL anymore. | ||
RawkusTk
Korea (South)28 Posts
On March 05 2007 15:09 GoBOXERgogo wrote: lol, all you morons are alike. You put yourself on this high mark where only you and your little faggot friends knowing anything about BW. Sure, you have no reason to respect me or anything I say. Nor does anyone here have any reason to respect what this fag says. The way he goes about presenting his facts it's clear he's very biased towards players (I mean wtf..look at what he says about rA) He's basically a borderline dickhead. Which hey, I know I am right? but the thing is I don't have this power ranking thing, so it doesn't matter. So go ahead and generalize me as some random guy who knows nothing, I don't care. But explain why anyone should want to hear that this guy thinks. i agree with this guy. This list is biased. it supposed to be a POWER RANK, not the lists of who's your favorite player. Basically he rated 3-5 as who can had good game against SAVIOR (he even admits in rating Midas). Midas didn't have anything to show off this year while Nada had 2nd place in OSL this year. How is Midas above Nada??? Idk. it seemes like many ppl in this forum doesn't like NADA. Well, u know what? his results proves it that he is one of the best of all time. doesn't matter what you guys say. | ||
omgbnetsux
United States3749 Posts
On March 05 2007 15:34 RawkusTk wrote: i agree with this guy. This list is biased. it supposed to be a POWER RANK, not the lists of who's your favorite player. Basically he rated 3-5 as who can had good game against SAVIOR (he even admits in rating Midas). Midas didn't have anything to show off this year while Nada had 2nd place in OSL this year. How is Midas above Nada??? Idk. it seemes like many ppl in this forum doesn't like NADA. Well, u know what? his results proves it that he is one of the best of all time. doesn't matter what you guys say. Best of all time? Sure. Better than Midas now? Debatable. That's whats going on right now - Debate. | ||
Manifesto7
Osaka26925 Posts
FIRST - Etter knows more about progaming than almost anyone. I didnt choose someone at random, I chose someone I think is qualified, and I think I am as good a judge as anyone. TWO - If you look at the first power rank and this power rank, you can see that the style of the feature is evolving. Nothing is perfect the first time. THREE - This is NOT a list of favorite players. It is a list of the most powerful players. Yes, their results have a bearing, but so does their style of play, presense, and all other intangibles. If you want a numbers based ranking, go see kespa. FOUR - It is not a crime to disagree with the list. It is encouraged. But when you do so you need to back up and argue with evidence. Simply saying this list is crap is not good enough. Saying it is a list of favorite players is not good enough. IT ISNT. If you dont agree, debate. You flame, you get banned. Ill never post this again, so you better fucking read it. | ||
One Page Memory
Bulgaria2145 Posts
"DJEtterStyles skype ringing. "Oh, my lord, not again ..." Answers. Actually its NaDa. - Etter, please, could you ... - Not now, Im watching Saviors game. 30 minutes later - Etter, please, just tell me what I must do to place better in PR? - What? 5th place isnt good enough for you? Well, you just arent playing very well - at all. Precise: stop trudging, you must play way better and creatively even again terrans, do not play with some cream puff opponents, but better ones in their superior match-up and own them with ease and finesse, do not face more terrans, dont play terran favorable maps. That must be enough for start. - But Etter I do not choose opponents and maps... - Its not my problem. Oh and play very carefully at Shinhan Masters, if you lose just one bad game you know where your ranking is going. And watch some Savior game, it might help you" | ||
DJEtterStyle
United States2766 Posts
On March 04 2007 03:31 BluzMan wrote: As for the actual standings, I'd remove Light and get Yarnc into the list. Otherwise, it's really good. If I'd been able to see his games against Chojja before the ranking, I would have put him at #10--and believe me, I wanted to anyway--but Yarnc has always been such a one-hit wonder (ZvT) that I didn't want to overreact too much. It looks like he's tightened up his game a lot, though, so I'm looking forward to seeing more of him in the Masters Tournament, assuming he makes it through the line of powerful players standing in his way. On March 04 2007 07:03 himurakenshin wrote: It was ok except for all this map comparison, saying how zerg "couldn't" post good results because of imbalanced ZvT maps etc etc. Please enough with all these map imbalanaces Check out KeSPA for March, and be sure to look at the little arrows that indicate whether a player has gone up or down in the past month. Only one Zerg went up, and that was Zergman. Savior held steady at #1, and all other Zergs dropped at least two slots. Seven Terrans went up in the KeSPA rankings. I don't know how much clearer I can make this: the current set of maps across both Starleagues is god awful for ZvT. On March 05 2007 06:09 MaGic~PhiL wrote: i hate it if you talk about easy bracket IN PRO GAMING especially OSL and MSL there are NO easy opponents. Maybe easier opponents, but thats just by a little.. That's where you're way off. There might not be a huge disparity in overall skill between Starleague-caliber players, but there's a huge disparity between skill across the various matchups. Casy is an absolute pushover TvP, Zergman can't do late-game ZvT management to save his life, and Light folds in most TvTs. And these are players who are arguably some of the best in the world in other matchups. Consider a mini-bracket which has two games: Casy vs. Zergman and Reach vs. July. All four are Starleague-caliber players. Now, let's look at the probable results: Casy > Zergman and July > Reach, as Zergman is spotty ZvT and Reach is relatively weak PvZ. Then we have Casy vs. July in the "finals," with the result being dependant upon current form, maps, play, etc. But what if those matches were changed around so that they were Reach vs. Casy and July vs. Zergman? Suddenly, in the same pool of only four players, we have a final between Reach and Zergman, given that--probably--Zergman > July and Reach > Casy. This would be considered an incredibly easy bracket for Reach, given that Zergman and Casy are both weak vP, but before, it was a very hard one, as Reach had to face one of the premier ZvP players in the world. Consider that, in the first instance, Reach might have been eliminated 0-2, whereas in the second instance, it's perfectly possible that he could go 5-0 to win the whole tournament. Don't underestimate just how important getting favorable opponents/matchups is! On March 05 2007 13:11 Wasabi wrote: I can see why some people are going apeshit about this list. One, because the way it is written is derogatory, instead of constructive. Two, it is biased, though this one list doesn't have that much bias really, just opinionated (as it should be, otherwise KeSPA's top progamers list is superior in every way). Three, there is basis on what is being written here, true, but the way other people interpret that information is different. I'd argue that the PR is a much better way of interpreting the top players at the moment than KeSPA. People might disagree with the order of a particular list that I post--and maybe they'd shuffle in/out a couple players at #9 and #10--but on the whole, most people seem to agree that the players belong somewhere in the top 10. Can we say that about the KeSPA ranking? Look at the most-recent one: do Jju, GF, and Anytime belong anywhere even near the top 10 for recent results? Of course not. (GF might belong in the top 15, though.) No ranking system is perfect, and the PR and KeSPA both serve their purposes. On March 04 2007 03:50 NadaFan1 wrote: wah midas sux. On March 04 2007 03:51 NadaFan2 wrote: but how ??. On March 04 2007 03:52 NadaFan3 wrote: omgwtf On March 04 2007 03:53 NadaFan4 wrote: lol ur bias nada #1 4 lyfe list sucks yo. Nada's placement is a judgement call. But do you honestly all care that much if Nada is #3, #4, or #5? Nada's play against Up and Yellow[Arnc] was pretty good, but his games against Casy and Savior were way worse than Iris', so it should be pretty obvious that, despite Iris taking third in the OSL, he played better. So Nada shouldn't be #3. Then we're left with Midas, who went 4-2 in the OSL, losing only to Savior. Nada went 1-2 in groups, won a tiebreaker against Dongrae to get into the Wildcard games, beat FBH and Light, went 2-1 against Up, 2-1 against Yarnc, 3-2 against Casy, and 1-3 against Savior, finishing up at 12-9 for the OSL. So Midas had a 67% win rate, and Nada had a 57% win rate. Given Midas' small sample size, however, that's pretty inconclusive. But if we look at how the two fared against the only opponents they had in common, Savior and Light, there's a bit more evidence in Midas' favor. Both players beat Light pretty easily, but I can't imagine anyone saying that Nada put up a better showing against Savior than Midas did. So I don't think it's out of line, given all of the above information, to put him one slot above Nada. If you think otherwise, it might be a good idea to consider your own bias. | ||
Detonate
Iceland578 Posts
even if they were spewing bullshit, no need for that | ||
Manifesto7
Osaka26925 Posts
On March 05 2007 16:43 Detonate wrote: (( , i had no idea you would make a feature like this, then ban people for disagreeing with it(using vulgar language of course, which i see on this website anyway all the time) even if they were spewing bullshit, no need for that Apparently you cant read. Look at number four. And in no thread on this site is what GoBOXERgogo said acceptable. Especially not to a staff member. | ||
Detonate
Iceland578 Posts
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Manifesto7
Osaka26925 Posts
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Detonate
Iceland578 Posts
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mrmin123
Korea (South)2971 Posts
On March 05 2007 15:09 GoBOXERgogo wrote: He's basically a borderline dickhead. Which hey, I know I am right? No, that's where you're wrong. He is a dickhead. | ||
DJEtterStyle
United States2766 Posts
On March 05 2007 17:34 mrmin123 wrote: No, that's where you're wrong. He is a dickhead. Min, you and I just understand each other. I'd give you a big ol' hug if I wasn't scared of catching asian from you. ^^ | ||
Hot_Bid
Braavos36362 Posts
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mikeymoo
Canada7170 Posts
I'll bake cookies! I'm on fire? Damn. I guess I can't get anyone's attention. | ||
QuietIdiot
7004 Posts
I'm not quite sure about Midas/Nada, they're pretty evenly matched now, Midas being more smarter and Nada having superior mechanics, but both choking/losing control up on big moments -_-. Perhaps when they do vs each other, it should be interesting. :D | ||
The Storyteller
Singapore2486 Posts
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rS.NonY
United States286 Posts
On March 05 2007 17:54 QuietIdiot wrote: The only thing I disagree with you was from last power rank where you said Bisu's PvP was weak..WTF? Well, Etter justifies it now by saying that the Bisu vs rA match wasn't overly convincing -- 2 of the games were determined by build and only one was outplaying. However I think it more accurate to say that rA was outplayed all 3 games or, at least, that rA was counting on Bisu not being able to do a few of the things he did (or not even expecting Bisu to do such things). Bisu prepared and played better than rA in the series. When he wasn't doing one, it was the other. And none of it was "build order luck" so to speak. Bisu simply showed twice that given an opportunity to prepare for a Bo5 against a big name opponents with a scary vsP record, he can overwhelmingly overcome his opponent with a combo of all the tools at his disposal (build order choice, tactics, micro/macro execution). So I agree with the #2 ranking, but I don't see any need to defend the ranking as though his pair of 3-0's can be diminished by any number of rationalizations. Bisu straight up put out and got the rank he deserves. | ||
PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
Iris above NaDa is okey but midas above NaDa's just .. seriously.. Its Midas own fault if he takes the hardest opponent. He barely had to play games after he lost vs savior and so he couldnt even show anything great. But if he doesnt keep on playing because he got kicked out of the tourney this is a clear sign of being NOT SO POWERFUL. NaDa made it to the final and lost there for the first time... That is quite powerful, isnt it ? And judging a ranking by playing style and how clear the wins were, come on wtf.. I just remember the stupid comments about anytime being better than NaDa in the OSL Final and about Casy playing better than NaDa in the semi finals. Thats blind bias and hatred towards NaDa. You just can justify to give a player more credits for a game who he lost vs the guy than the one who actually won. Now i dont exactly know how much thats the case with the power ranking, but thats not the entire point. It just makes no sense to rank someone depending on how much you like his game style , how you liked his strats or special movements. Thats totally unimportant. Its about if the guy wins or loses. Simple as that. If you win all the time you are powerful and it doesnt matter how you win. If you lose all the time you are not powerful and no one cares if you lost all your games in a close battle.. Winning many games and losing one or two games horribly is better than making a few cool moves winning some games but losing the most of your parties.. All in all this has no directly something to do with the NaDa above Midas case ( or vice versa ), but after i heard, that this was a absolute CURRENT power ranking, meaning it checks the power of the pros for a very short period of time; for like a month or something i dont see how midas can be above NaDa.. That is not bias, that is just a wrong decision. Iris above NaDa is bias, but thats okey, cause its all bias, but midas above nada makes no sense for me.. I would even put casy above midas.. but whatever.. except nada being a bit to low for what he achieved and midas being far too high for what he did ( again choosing savior is his very own fault ) the list is quite good imho | ||
Lukeeze[zR]
Switzerland6838 Posts
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Beamo
France1279 Posts
On March 06 2007 03:38 MaGic~PhiL wrote: Winning many games and losing one or two games horribly is better than making a few cool moves winning some games but losing the most of your parties.. This is where you are wrong. PR does take in consideration how the players won or lost, vs who and on what maps. If you are only fetching statistic ranking you already have the Kespa Ranking. You may not find this objective and it is true it does bring a bit of bias but this is how this ranking works. This is also why contestations are welcomed if they are well backed-up and why this list is open to debate. You can't debate a list build on statistics | ||
Mynock
4492 Posts
Btw, a good list actually (appropriate write-up too, I like that), altho I'm sure you know what my problem with it is, but that has been so ever since the very first issue, so I'm kinda used to it by now. -Mynock | ||
rgfdxm
United States239 Posts
On March 06 2007 03:38 MaGic~PhiL wrote: And judging a ranking by playing style and how clear the wins were, come on wtf.. [...] It just makes no sense to rank someone depending on how much you like his game style , how you liked his strats or special movements. Thats totally unimportant. Its about if the guy wins or loses. Phil, I think you are misunderstanding the purpose of the Power Rank. We already have a system for ranking players that looks at nothing subjective and counts a win as a win and a loss as a loss. That's the KeSPA rankings. KeSPA is a totally objective, mechanical, point-based system that tells us unarguably who's been winning and who's been losing lately. If that was all we wanted, there would be no Power Rank, Sure, there are quibbles over weighting events and length of the time period counted, but even if you had several different KeSPA rankings that dealt with different windows of time and changed it so different events aren't weighted differently, there would still be a reason to create something like the Power Rank. While the KeSPA ranking does what it was designed to do perfectly well, given the nature of BW and the system used for competitive progaming, a simple tally of wins and losses ignores a lot of information. As the simplest example, imagine that Iris played against Savior in the semifinals but got crushed 3-0. Outplayed from start to finish every single game, never stood a chance. To the KeSPA ranking, this is no different from the result that actually occurred. But anyone would say that affects their perception of how good Iris is at TvZ. Iris's performance in that semi-final was eye-opening to a lot of people, and for good reason. Iris showed definitively that he's not a one-trick TvT pony. How close a game or series is DOES matter in evaluating a player's skill. A second factor that KeSPA ignores is one introduced by the structure of progaming: not everyone plays against everyone else. If all events were played round robin then we could do direct comparisons between players. Since instead we have the much smaller bracket system, luck of the draw will play a part in your simple win/loss tally. Yarnc played against a slumping oov and 2-0ed his way into the OSL Ro8. What if his opponent had been Midas instead? Or Savior? While we can't say what might have been, we can certainly try to take into account when someone wins against an easy opponent or loses to someone they should have beaten (Anytime vs DarkElf, anyone?). Having to play against strong players could make you exit an event earlier than someone else who had weaker opponents, despite the fact that you are the better player. #3 source of information loss in the KeSPA ranking: matchups. This is closely tied to the second that I described above. The source is partially the same: the fact that which opponents you draw affects your record. But to throw in another monkey wrench, BW is a game of three races and nine matchups. How do you decide whether a player of one race is better than a player of another? For that matter, what about people who are good in some matchups but weak in others? Light[alive] is monstrous (or at least was in 2006) TvP and TvZ, but a pushover TvT. Yellow[ArnC] is a fearsome ZvTer, but his ZvP and ZvZ are suspect. Who's better? Yarnc killed some terrans, and that was all he needed to make it to the OSL Ro8. Light also had to play against a bunch of terrans. Sucks to be him. All this information about matchups and opponents drawn is lost when converting a player's hours of gaming into a yes-no tally system. #4: Maps. Yes, there is imbalance in maps. Maybe you think it's exaggerated, maybe you think a bunch of armchair generals such as us can't properly evaluate the imbalance, but you must admit that at least SOME imbalance must exist. KeSPA has to ignore whether a loss was a close game on a tough map. We do not. Why throw out such information? So, to summarize. KeSPA is useful and good. It has its problems. In order to achieve objectivity, it reduces a complex game of strategy, speed, timing, and psychology into a tally. In the process of this conversion, much information is lost, and the Power Rank is an attempt to create a parallel (NOTE: NOT REPLACEMENT) ranking system that encompasses those aspects of the game that we know matter but that we can't quantify. Simply because we can't quantify these factors in no way means they should be ignored. Everything I have said in this post is a fact. Unarguable. There is a reason for the Power Rank to exist, a vacuum in the available ranking information. You can disagree with DJEtterStyle's individual choices or reasoning, but to argue with why the Power Rank exists simply shows that you are missing the point. Just to make that crystal clear, the point of the Power Rank is to take into account all the unquantifiable, and therefore subjective, details of this game that KeSPA must ignore. Read that again. It's not possible for the Power Rank to be objective. This is ON PURPOSE. Saying that the rankings are biased or subjective is pointless. In order to disagree, it is necessary to post your own (subjective!) ranking, and defend it. | ||
~chut~
France1317 Posts
I see the PR as a way to determine who would be a favourite in liquibet. Imo, if you take out all fanboys voting with their heart, in any Nada vs X or Midas vs X bet, you should get more vote for Midas than for Nada, cause Midas is just playing better at the moment. Yes, he didn't achieve a lot in osl because of his stupid choice, but he was the second big favourite behind Savior to win it all. Stop it with the controversy | ||
SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
Honestly, mucho mucho gratitude. You are one sensible cutie pie. If you guys disagree, then write your own list with justifications. This is etter's and his will be the OP but just because he is OP doesn't mean you can't justify your own PR. | ||
~chut~
France1317 Posts
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Locke.
Israel562 Posts
Good list though I don't think Midas should be higher than Nada considering their achievments this month.. | ||
Hot_Bid
Braavos36362 Posts
regarding #3-5, iris destroyed casy and barely lost to savior. nada barely beat casy and was absolutely raped by savior. the midas/nada 4-5 slot is the only controversial one. imo its close between nada and midas given the goals of the power rank (for the 1000th time, its NOT KeSPA) so all the people are essentially going nuts over the difference between #4 and #5, which isn't a monumental difference. chill. | ||
tomatriedes
New Zealand5356 Posts
Guess nobody can complain about Iris being higher than emoboy now anyway hahaha | ||
PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
why is NaDa always getting the weaker spot ? Etter is always like '' ok, we got a close one here, but i put this and this guy closely above NaDa''. Then if some people ask why and complain that NaDa should be higher he is like '' well guys dont be angry it are only two or even one rank difference, could almost be the other way around, it was very close'' Anyway, you guys always say we should justify our ''own'' ranking, ok once again i'll explain why i think midas does not deserve to be above NaDa : 1) NaDa got 2nd in OSL midas didnt make it far at all . And NO, you cant defend this with midas losing to the winner of the tourney, because its midas own fault choosing him as an opponent. 2) Midas didnt play much better than NaDa in his games, he didnt win anything, NaDa got 2nd OSL again a few weeks ago.. 3) NaDa didnt play well vs savior, he played not as good as he could have. So did Savior himself vs Bisu. So what ? Dont always compare a player to savior and then judge him by that.. Seriously.. whould you rank savior above nada , if NaDa is 40:5 and lost 5 times to savior and savior is 35:10 and lost 10 times to someone else ? Sometimes it seems to me, you look at savior vs X games and then make your decision.. btw midas today lost vs a as always strong tvt player called Iris, which should give iris a even safer place and should FINALLY move midas down in his ranking.. at least behind midas and casy.. i know myself you didnt include this in your ranking ( how could you've...) | ||
~chut~
France1317 Posts
How can you say Midas choosing Savior should be a reason to put him down in a power ranking... | ||
Mynock
4492 Posts
On March 06 2007 08:05 Hot_Bid wrote: #1 and #2 are pretty much indisputable, theres a small but unconvincing argument that bisu should be #1, but savior #1 is better regarding #3-5, iris destroyed casy and barely lost to savior. nada barely beat casy and was absolutely raped by savior. the midas/nada 4-5 slot is the only controversial one. imo its close between nada and midas given the goals of the power rank (for the 1000th time, its NOT KeSPA) so all the people are essentially going nuts over the difference between #4 and #5, which isn't a monumental difference. chill. I naturally disagree. If anybody tries making a point out of "Iris destroying Casy" we have to stop right there. Are you honestly implying that Casy was fighting equally strongly for the #3 spot as for his entry into the Finals? Surely not. There was not a shred of a doubt in me that Iris, to whom the #3 spot really meant something (his highest achievement so far) would trample over a lackluster Casy who having a badge himself already wants nothing but a final win. It's just common sense. As to how the Finals turned out - NaDa was sticking to his strategy (which is horrendously difficult to play against SaviOr) while SaviOr himself did the same thing in the MSL finals and we know the rest of that story... So I disagree completely with this whole "looking strong" thing - it's only the result that counts. That is because no matter what you read into the games themselves it's all your own speculations, and those can be pretty broken off from reality at times. That is because you do not know what the players themselves are actually thinking and why they're playing the way they are. This became profoundly apparent to me after these recent finals, so I'm inclined to revise the whole process of theorycrafting that I have considered obvious until now. I will explain this sometimes later, but right now I have to say that the main merit in deciding a players "hotness" should be his ability to achieve his goals. That is to say there is a degree of importance for each separate game(!), not necessarily a match even, that is the main factor of motivation of achievements for a participant of the bout. And here we have NaDa who went 2nd after winning his previous OSL, SaviOr who won an OSL and went second this MSL, and Bisu winning the MSL. The top 3 is between the three of them, and no one else. You can dislike NaDa as much as you want, you can predict him as dim a fate as you'd like him to have, the fact remains - he gets the job done. He pulls through. (And although this is besides the point, that makes him a goddamn blessing to his fans because he's amazing to root for.) And he will again. Like it or not. And just a reminder, wasn't Midas supposed to perform extraordinarily good having only 1 league to attend to? If anything, that's a big drawback on his performance if we're going to consider these things at all. So there are the reasons you wanted, and then here's my top5: sAviOr, Bisu, NaDa, Iris, Midas The balance between these 5 is quite delicate. -Mynock | ||
Mynock
4492 Posts
He plays for himself and not for you. -Mynock | ||
jkillashark
United States5262 Posts
Who's wushu is better? You can't really order which wushu is the best because some wushus win against some and lose against different wushus. But what I think DJEtter does a good job of doing when ordering the wushus is he tries to tell us who's wushu is HOT, not necessarily the best wushu. So just because NaDa is number five does not mean his wushu is number five in the world, it might be number one, but the fact of the matter is is that his wushu is not as hot as some others. + Show Spoiler + Though I do agree NaDa's wushu should be a bit higher. =P | ||
Lukeeze[zR]
Switzerland6838 Posts
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KizZBG
u gotta skate8152 Posts
:D | ||
Hot_Bid
Braavos36362 Posts
On March 06 2007 08:46 Mynock wrote: Oh one more thing. I completely disagree with putting down Midas for choosing sAviOr twice, either. No, he's NOT dumb, he sure is a lot smarter that you think in fact. Midas's choice is explained easily. First of all, he's confident. He had to use that to his advantage. Had he disabled sAviOr right then and there I'd have given him all the chances to win the league. Midas has some of the best chances to take sAviOr out, and he wanted to do that as quickly as possible. Ad second, NO, he did NOT have no obligation to the fans to fight sAviOr in a BO5. He has however an obligation to his fans and his team to win games. Which he tried his best at, choosing the route most suitable for his goals. Eliminating SaviOr early was his best shot at winning the league. And he's a guy who's not in a position where he'd be satisfied with crumbles. He wants the title, and you have to take that into consideration when deciding his strategy for him the next time. He plays for himself and not for you. -Mynock i never claimed the "owe the fans" argument. it was just stupid for many other reasons. i already explained why it was stupid for midas to pick savior. i do not see ANY positives in midas' choice other than that it's a Bo3 in the Ro16 instead of a Bo5, but even that might not be a positive given that they are pro terran maps, so the Bo5 means Longinus, RLT, and HH will ALL be included, instead of one possibly being excluded (as is what happened). Negatives to midas' choice: 1. Zergman, July, Hwasin, Casy, (and now IriS) have all shown capability to beat Savior, especially in a fluke Bo3. I don't see how "being confident" or "disabling savior right then" matters in this case. if someone else eliminates him, he's still eliminated. Midas has an OK chance to not even have to play Savior at all, which would've made it much easier for him to win the whole thing. it's misplaced pride and overestimation of himself that caused him to pick savior, it was by no means a "smart" decision. if you want to justify arguments with results, here they are: it was dumb because he took a huge risk and fucking lost. had he won maybe you can argue that it was a smart choice, but since he lost i cant believe we're still talking about this. did you watch midas, all smiley and joking at the group stage? he has to back up what he puts out there with wins, not fake confidence. 2. Builds. Savior will have had to play a ton of ZvTs, and the more builds on these maps midas sees the less likely he will be fooled like he was in Game 3 of their Bo3. Hwasin's win vs the savior's guardian build on Blitz in the MSL semis benefited hugely from watching the Midas loss on HH in the Ro16. Midas could've done the same, watching Savior and analyzing his style even more on the same maps. Why would he go into it cold, against the most strategic player in the OSL? How could he not think savior had special builds prepared? 3. Motivation. Savior's play, as evidenced by the recent MSL, is heavily influenced by how motivated he is. Its the sense of complacency at the top, and by picking Savior in groups, then beating him, then picking him again in brackets, Midas was straight up disrespecting him (savior, iirc, actually asked midas not to pick him). You remember the OGN Sparkz incident right? Savior is one vindictive motherfucker, and the champion in him would simply not allow a loss to midas. it meant too much to him after the insult. when put in that situation savior just wins. it's proven again and again. why would you give the most vengeful, scary, killer-instinct guy extra motivation to beat you? thats just like talking about michael jordan's mother or insulting federer's girlfriend. its not done because you get punished for it. 4. Seed and confidence. Midas should be playing for a seed and playing for confidence. he should not be saying to himself "omg finals winnar or nothing." his career is on the upswing and he chokes because he does not have enough big-game experience. winning a bunch of matches against lower level guys would do wonders to build that, and a seed into the next OSL would be absolutely huge. now what happened? midas might not make the next one and his confidence is shot. his career seriously could turn right around. as for your nada post, we are arguing about 1 or 2 spots, i believe it should've been savior-bisu-iris-nada, you think savior-bisu-nada-iris, its not a huge difference. i think i see the merits in your argument for nada and you clearly see (and disagree with) the points on why iris should be one spot lower and nada one spot higher. | ||
mrmin123
Korea (South)2971 Posts
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KizZBG
u gotta skate8152 Posts
On March 06 2007 14:16 mrmin123 wrote: These Power Ranking threads end up with the longest posts ever. omg you're right. I'm such a dick, I can't be bothered to read anymore than 3 lines -_-. | ||
Vin{MBL}
5185 Posts
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Daveed
United States236 Posts
On March 06 2007 10:00 KizZBG wrote: But Midas hair is better than Nada's. :D No one's hair is better than NaDa's | ||
SiZ.FaNtAsY
Korea (South)1497 Posts
Well except for the fact that intotherainbow should be #10 for no reason. Great list! Wait!!!! What happened to your anti-nal_ra anti iris COMMENTS!??!!?!! I miss them... I will do them for you! Nal_Ra - finally you lose please die Iris - Whatever craterface | ||
rS.NonY
United States286 Posts
On March 06 2007 20:00 SiZ.FaNtAsY wrote: What happened to your anti-nal_ra anti iris COMMENTS!??!!?!! I miss them... I will do them for you! Nal_Ra - finally you lose please die Iris - Whatever craterface Shhh!! Etter is maturing... just let it happen | ||
SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
On March 06 2007 12:38 Hot_Bid wrote:midas might not make the next one and his confidence is shot. his career seriously could turn right around. I think that's a bit of a stretch. SKT1 does look shakey but Midas is Midas -_-;; | ||
KizZBG
u gotta skate8152 Posts
Blasphemy! | ||
Mynock
4492 Posts
I dunno why you take it so close to heart but anyway, I disagree with pretty much everything you said there, however I guess we're both entitled to our opinion. Well I agree on one thing there tho: In hindsight we know that Midas lost, and results should count. That's why Midas in my eyes is nowhere near NaDa, let alone in front of him. But again, hindsight is 20/20, I said Midas's choice was good back then, and I'm sticking to it now, I won't change my opinion regardless of the outcome. And I explained my opinion I think, I don't want to explain it again. You're telling Midas to go for seeds? If I was in his place I'd feel insulted to the core. Oh and btw, are you calling sAviOr THE most strategic player in the OSL? -_- You have got to be kidding there. PS.: NaDa's hairstyle is second to no one. -Mynock | ||
Hot_Bid
Braavos36362 Posts
i never argued about nada vs midas, i even agreed with you that nada should be in front of midas. i argued for iris being above nada, and look at Iris recent play, i believe he's above nada in power ranking, if not pure results. hindsight is 20/20 but saying something like "i wont change my opinion regardless of outcome" is ridiculous. there's absolutely no way what midas did can be interpreted as a "smart" decision especially now that we know he has lost. think of it this way, if 2 basketball players on different teams, Player A and Player B, with 2 seconds left on the clock both demand the ball in a game winning shot situation... Player A has a history of missing in close situations like these and never won a title. Player B has a history of coming through no matter the odds in these situations, and has won many titles. It's a smart decision for the coach to give Player B the shot 100% of the time. The coach will never be criticized ever, regardless of whether Player B misses or not. But the coach giving the shot to Player A is entirely results dependent. In the sports media and to the fans, they don't care whether something was a "borderline ok" decision at the time. If coach gives Player A the shot despite all the shaky history, the coach will look like a genius or idiot given what happens. All is decided on whether Player A can make it. It's hindsight, but that sort of second-guessing is natural to ALL THINGS, from sports to Iraq. It's the same rhetoric, "oh we believe it was a good decision at the time and we won't change our opinions despite any result" even though lots of evidence clearly hinting that it probably is a dumb decision. There's some sort of admiration for people being brave and demanding the shot, but there's a clear line between bravery and stupidity. It's obvious Player A is midas and Player B is savior, and that's why midas picking the best player in the field is 180 degrees different than savior doing it. That alone, coupled with my point about the maps and studying saviors build and midas gaining confidence, added to the actual LOSS BY MIDAS, should be enough to show that it was a fucking idiotic decision by him at the selection. (not to mention all the extra motivation it gives savior). i just get angry and have no respect for people who are all talk, wanna-be champions and crumble under pressure. midas is that. savior is not. that is why i feel so strongly about this issue and why i feel the need to respond to people who say "lol midas took his shot, he should be admired for being brave!" when if you broke it down it really is very clear how badly midas miscalculated. as ive said all along, midas actually winning in the Ro16 after the savior is the only way he would redeem himself for this dumb decision, and the odds on that were quite poor. it just boggles my mind that people would be stubborn enough to still think that it was "smart" for midas to pick savior. edit: also, nobody has ever articulated a good reason for midas choosing savior. not one. there's no tangible reason or positive for midas choosing him other than its a bo3 instead of a bo5, which still is dubious given that bo5 means more games on imba maps. the whole "well midas would have to take him on anyway" or "midas would have a good shot to win osl if he won" is pointless, the first statement is not true at all and midas would still have a good shot on the other side of the bracket, except with more time to analyze style, builds, and less motivation / more tiredness for double league practice savior. | ||
~chut~
France1317 Posts
And all pro haircuts badly suck. Maybe it's fashionable, but it's so incredibly ugly, Nada was much better looking before imo. | ||
Hot_Bid
Braavos36362 Posts
On March 07 2007 03:38 SuperJongMan wrote: I think that's a bit of a stretch. SKT1 does look shakey but Midas is Midas -_-;; midas is 1-4 since choosing savior kekekeke of course its vs savior and iris so it doesn't really matter but slump begins now!!!! (at least im hoping it will) | ||
Wasabi
United States3085 Posts
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sundance
Slovakia3201 Posts
On March 06 2007 08:39 Mynock wrote: [ If anybody tries making a point out of "Iris destroying Casy" we have to stop right there. Are you honestly implying that Casy was fighting equally strongly for the #3 spot as for his entry into the Finals? Surely not. How the fuck you can know it ? Maybe you don't know but pros are usually playing for the honor because their monthly salaries (big dogs) are higher then price for the first place. The price is nothing compared to possible salary and income from commercials when they're winning players. When you're winning player you generate interest and interest generates money.A lot of money. | ||
sundance
Slovakia3201 Posts
On March 07 2007 05:19 Mynock wrote: Oh and btw, are you calling sAviOr THE most strategic player in the OSL? -_- You have got to be kidding there. -Mynock Hot_Bid is right and if you're not able to see it then you have no qualification on commenting anything regarding strategy. Seriously. Nada got outplayed. Learn to live with it. | ||
jkillashark
United States5262 Posts
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TheGreatOne
United States534 Posts
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Beamo
France1279 Posts
On March 07 2007 05:36 Hot_Bid wrote: <hr>edit: also, nobody has ever articulated a good reason for midas choosing savior. not one. there's no tangible reason or positive for midas choosing him other than its a bo3 instead of a bo5, which still is dubious given that bo5 means more games on imba maps. I'll give you reasons why it was not a stupid choice First of all momentum. Think of the momentum he would of had taking Savior out of the OSL. How do you think a player like Zergman would have felt playing Midas right after he got rid of Savior ? In terms of mechanics all the top players are pretty close. The psychology can be a strong deciding factor. Midas had a psycological advantage having beaten Savior in group stage. Psycological advantage that would have been diminished if Savior had time to beat other strong Terrans on the same maps on the way to their confrontation. You say Midas should have waited to analyse Savior's play on these maps but that would of also given Savior time to analyse Midas' play and find solutions on these maps. Take a map like 815, it started off as a horrible PvT map but as time went (before modifications were made on the map) Protoss players started to find solutions and even if the map kept a T > P record, the gap decreased. When the maps are at your advantage it is not always wise to give the opponent too much time to think it through. Look at Longinus, it still stays a Terran map, but Savior now knows how to exploit the early 4 gases and win on it. In both semis and in final this map became one of his strong map. Last point we all know Midas chokes. But he doesn't choke against strong players he chokes, the closer he gets to the final. Taking out the strongest players while he plays his best will be an asset for the rest of the tourney. Sum up : Momentum/Confidence he would have had winning the game (enough to compensate his choking ability ?) Striking before Savior builds back his confidence on these maps Striking before Savior finds solutions on these maps Striking while he plays his best Starcraft I'm not saying your points aren't valid and I clearly agree it was a bad decision since he lost but I don't think it was a stupid one. He would of had a lot to win of it had worked out. Yes it was a gamble but he probably thought a gamble was one of the best way to overcome his choking pattern. At this level of play gambles are necessary. This is why we see so many do or die builds, so many proxy tries, why we see Nal_ra stupidly lose to mutas because he thought his opponent was going lurks and decided not to invest in canons. Progamers will do anything to get an edge. And when it fails everyone clearly sees it was a bad decision but that doesn't mean it was a stupid one from the start | ||
Hot_Bid
Braavos36362 Posts
he can easily build up momentum by beating people that are easier opponents, thats the correct way to build confidence, not play the hardest opponent first. 2. psychological advantage? midas??? are you smoking? no matter how many games he wins hes still a choker, and chokers NEVER have the psychological advantage, no matter how many games they win in the group stage 3. saying midas needs to play savior before savior "build up confidence" is ridiculous and you know it. savior is the cockiest most confident motherfucker out there, playing midas ro16 or finals doesn't change that savior's a champion and will come through in pressure situations. 4. builds. midas plays THE SAME WAY every single time. why would savior need to see more midas games when all he does is FE into tank heavy macro mass move out? its clear whose style has been figured out and whose hasn't, and it's obvious midas is the one benefiting by seeing more builds on these maps. if midas saw the iris fast vessel build vs savior on HH (or hell, ANY build in the iris/savior series) you don't think midas would've learned a few things? 5. midas chokes because of the pressure, not because of the round number. it's crazy to believe the pressure is alleviated simply because its the ro16 instead of semis, like some magic button is pressed. if anything, midas put more pressure ON HIMSELF by picking savior and giving savior motivation, placing so much emphasis on the match, etc. midas sucks under pressure, and he should've played easy opponents because there's no pressure there. as i said before, it was a stupid decision | ||
ChApFoU
France2980 Posts
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Beamo
France1279 Posts
On March 07 2007 20:27 Hot_Bid wrote: 1. momentum he can easily build up momentum by beating people that are easier opponents, thats the correct way to build confidence, not play the hardest opponent first. 2. psychological advantage? midas??? are you smoking? no matter how many games he wins hes still a choker, and chokers NEVER have the psychological advantage, no matter how many games they win in the group stage 3. saying midas needs to play savior before savior "build up confidence" is ridiculous and you know it. savior is the cockiest most confident motherfucker out there, playing midas ro16 or finals doesn't change that savior's a champion and will come through in pressure situations. 4. builds. midas plays THE SAME WAY every single time. why would savior need to see more midas games when all he does is FE into tank heavy macro mass move out? its clear whose style has been figured out and whose hasn't, and it's obvious midas is the one benefiting by seeing more builds on these maps. if midas saw the iris fast vessel build vs savior on HH (or hell, ANY build in the iris/savior series) you don't think midas would've learned a few things? 5. midas chokes because of the pressure, not because of the round number. it's crazy to believe the pressure is alleviated simply because its the ro16 instead of semis, like some magic button is pressed. if anything, midas put more pressure ON HIMSELF by picking savior and giving savior motivation, placing so much emphasis on the match, etc. midas sucks under pressure, and he should've played easy opponents because there's no pressure there. as i said before, it was a stupid decision Yes Midas gambled and lost. But every progamer gambles, the competition is so tough it often becomes necessary to gain an edge. Savior proved he could adapt to the maps. he said in groupstage that Longinus was really hard ZvT. Lately he hasn't lost a single game on Longinus against players like Nada, Hwasin or Iris. You said so yourself Midas tends to always play the same way, giving players time will always be a disavantage for that kind of player. Progamers will find solutions. When the maps advantage you, playing later is a bad choice. | ||
JohnnyCash
France244 Posts
- Had Midas won, it would have been a smart move. - Midas lost, therefore it was a stupid move. Validity of the idea confirmed/infirmed a posteriori. | ||
sundance
Slovakia3201 Posts
On March 08 2007 03:25 JohnnyCash wrote: I think it's more something like: - Had Midas won, it would have been a smart move. - Midas lost, therefore it was a stupid move. Validity of the idea confirmed/infirmed a posteriori. It was retarded move regardless of the result. | ||
Mynock
4492 Posts
sundance: sAviOr is the best mechanic player ATM (NaDa is very close second). NaDa got outplayed? Outplayed yes, but do you mean strategically, or what? Both NaDa and sAviOr came to the game with their most stable builds, most stable plays. sAviOr's was > NaDa's. I was then disappointed by both of them, but especially NaDa, since I expected him to come up with something interesting against sAviOr for the finals. Just like Bisu did. And we all know how well sAviOr countered that situation, don't we? Start making sense please. -Mynock | ||
Beamo
France1279 Posts
On March 08 2007 03:25 JohnnyCash wrote: I think it's more something like: - Had Midas won, it would have been a smart move. - Midas lost, therefore it was a stupid move. Validity of the idea confirmed/infirmed a posteriori. If by winning it would have been a smart move Then it's not a stupid move it's just a bad move. (and a good move and not a smart move if he would have won). I see a stupid/smart move as something bad/good regardless of the outcome A bad/good move depending on the outcome (A gamble). | ||
sundance
Slovakia3201 Posts
On March 08 2007 04:23 Mynock wrote: sundance: sAviOr is the best mechanic player ATM (NaDa is very close second). NaDa got outplayed? Outplayed yes, but do you mean strategically, or what? Both NaDa and sAviOr came to the game with their most stable builds, most stable plays. sAviOr's was > NaDa's. I was then disappointed by both of them, but especially NaDa, since I expected him to come up with something interesting against sAviOr for the finals. Just like Bisu did. And we all know how well sAviOr countered that situation, don't we? Start making sense please. -Mynock Actually Savior's mechanics are not that great. They are pretty average. And ffs since when strategy comes down only to build order. Start making sense please. EDIT: Savior is winning games like oov used to.By using their brain while having mechanics that doesn't stood up but at the level where they don't lose them the game. | ||
Mynock
4492 Posts
I think I'm done talking to you. -Mynock | ||
sundance
Slovakia3201 Posts
On March 08 2007 04:32 Mynock wrote: Oh so sAviOr's using bad-ass strategies each game and wins them not through his outstanding control (which is actually average according to you) but by him surprising his opponent and just being smarter than them? I think I'm done talking to you. -Mynock You don't need to surprise your opponent and you can still out-smart him. I think I'm done talking to you -sundance | ||
PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
perfect | ||
Mynock
4492 Posts
On March 08 2007 05:19 MaGic~PhiL wrote: so you are both done with talking each other perfect Haha I sometimes feel like I'm posting in KindergartenLiquid.net or something. (Kinda difficult to argue against "I am rubber, you are glue".) I miss the good old TL days when worthy users weren't so far and in between -Mynock | ||
Hot_Bid
Braavos36362 Posts
mynock, we'll have to agree to disagree on the midas thing, i see your point you see mine etc etc. i also agree with you that nada should be placed higher than midas in the power rank. but i believe it should be savior-bisu-iris #1-3, and i think we'll have to agree to disagree on that too. | ||
Mynock
4492 Posts
I believe many people overlook that fact, and that in terms of pure raw skill, NaDa shows a better TvZ performance than IriS (WAY better). I'd also say that had NaDa known all the things IriS knows about sAviOr, he would have won easily. But that of course is a humble guess. -Mynock | ||
Hot_Bid
Braavos36362 Posts
but when you look at TvT, IriS 2-0 GF, then 3-0 Casy horribly one sided (i know you question Casy's motivations, but this was for a seed, so he had to have been trying), while Nada went 2-1 with Up and 3-2 with Casy. i'd say that's a definite edge in TvT for IriS, and one month span is all you need for PR. This isn't even including IriS 2-0 of Midas and 2-0 of GF (again) in the Pre-Shinhan Masters Also, Nada had a full week or so to analyze the Iris vs Savior games and what made those builds so good. Yet he did not change his style or BOs to even attempt ONE of the strategies Iris did. The HitchHiker game seemed the most puzzling, as Iris' 1 base fast Vessel raped Savior yet Nada does the standard TvZ FE that Savior is absolutely awesome against. Raw skillwise of course NaDa is better, he's a machine that has amazing control, macro etc. He's got the whole deal when it comes to mechanics, especially in TvZ. However, the strategy really was the reason Iris was so good against Savior, and yes they are on the same team, but Iris showed adaptability and creativity in his series while Nada just kept doing the same old thing that never worked against Savior (see Superfight3). Bisu and Iris are examples of players that changed their style and BOs to compensate for their opponent, using excellent decision making and execution rather than relying on mechanics to outplay. Nada did not, and imo that makes him #4 and Iris #3 (add to it the better Iris TvT). | ||
~chut~
France1317 Posts
Anyway, on the Midas/Nada argument, ask yourself who would you choose now if there was something at stake to play for you. I think i'd choose Midas. | ||
PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
On March 08 2007 08:58 ~chut~ wrote: I agree with PoP and that's why i didn't understand Mynock stuff about "Savior isn't the most strategic player in osl". I assumed he thought the most strategic player was Nada... But it's clearly not the case. Anyway, on the Midas/Nada argument, ask yourself who would you choose now if there was something at stake to play for you. I think i'd choose Midas. you like to lose if something is at stake for you ? ;P Seriously.. Now that iris beat midas he has definitely finally to drop down.. and AT LEAST be behin NaDa, no matter what.. | ||
Mynock
4492 Posts
On March 08 2007 07:07 Hot_Bid wrote:Raw skillwise of course NaDa is better, he's a machine that has amazing control, macro etc. He's got the whole deal when it comes to mechanics, especially in TvZ. However, the strategy really was the reason Iris was so good against Savior, and yes they are on the same team, but Iris showed adaptability and creativity in his series while Nada just kept doing the same old thing that never worked against Savior (see Superfight3). See, I agree on this one, as I said, this is why I was so angry with NaDa (he never really disappoints me, but now he did, in the friggin' finals no less) - he didn't change his style when it was clear that he has a huge disadvantage going into the game the same as he always did. But does that necessarily make IriS a better player ALL-round, and as for TvT - I believe you'll be surprised at how NaDa will play against IriS upcoming Masters, but whatever... I'm a fanboy, I always BELIEVE Still, I know we disagree on lots of aspects there (mostly I think we disagree around Terrans from what I've seen), but whatever, you have your reasons, I have mine, and I must say I respect yours, even tho I don't necessarily agree with them. PS.: (Fuck you man, you spoiled the results of day 2 and 3 for me - was only about to watch them now) PPS.: I said multiple times already: No, I do not consider NaDa a strategic player, because he isn't. Neither is sAviOr tho. Nal_rA is strategic, BoxeR is, GARIMTO was (is?)... But neither sAviOr nor NaDa AREN'T. -Mynock | ||
Ace
United States16096 Posts
Likewise we finally get to see if Casy is the Terran that can take out Savior. Really great matchups lately. | ||
SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
Kumbayaaa my lord.. kumbayaaaa... | ||
Lukeeze[zR]
Switzerland6838 Posts
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PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
On March 08 2007 10:13 Ace wrote: I'd just like to say that the recent month or 2 has been an absolute DREAM to settle a lot of debates. Remember when people said Iris's TvT wasn't shit compared to Nada's? And how he played lesser opponents? Well, so far he's dominated everyone with complete shutouts and is going to play Nada. Likewise we finally get to see if Casy is the Terran that can take out Savior. Really great matchups lately. i think u got something totally wrong here most people said NaDaS TvT was shit compared to IriS's just because iris had such an amazing record, but as a matter of fact NaDas TvT isnt shit no matter to whom u compare it. And Iris vs NaDa would probably be the two best TvT's at the moment.. | ||
spammerA
China355 Posts
Nada - Iris: Iris is unstoppable TvT right now, good thing they are facing each other next week in a bo5, I don't think Nada will give up easily. Even if Iris wins, the other half of the league constitute of Zergs, Nada's TvZ is still ahead imo, had Nada been using Iris' build in a bo5 against Savior, he could have won, at least for that arkanoid game 5. Bisu could climb up to no.2 for winning MSL taking down Savior and Ra in a not so straight fight, Nada should be no.3 for participating in the OSL final twice in a row. | ||
TheGreatOne
United States534 Posts
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KizZBG
u gotta skate8152 Posts
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
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Vin{MBL}
5185 Posts
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
He beat Bisu. YEAHHHH Fuckin aye, It feels GOOOOOOD Where is the close but no cigar list? | ||
Vin{MBL}
5185 Posts
On March 11 2007 11:55 SuperJongMan wrote: On the otherhand, Casy won a TvP. He beat Bisu. YEAHHHH Fuckin aye, It feels GOOOOOOD Where is the close but no cigar list? hehehe nice casy gogogogogoo~~~~~~~~ | ||
dronebabo
10866 Posts
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mikeymoo
Canada7170 Posts
On March 12 2007 17:17 dronebabo wrote: the power rankings have been smited down by a calendar all is fair Permanently? Or is it an aesthetics thing? EDIT: ZOMG I MISSED THE POWER RANK RIGHT BELOW WTF! | ||
Vin{MBL}
5185 Posts
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semioldguy
United States7488 Posts
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ChApFoU
France2980 Posts
PR is about who is the most powerful right now and takes into account the subjective thing that kespa doesn't. Fine But then there's ppl who bring up a lot of reasoning on the subject which isn't convincing at all. Ok I'm a NaDa fan but I can perfectly understand why Iris is above him. But Midas ? hell no ! I'm still not convinced. In fact what Etter said about Iris last moth seems to apply to Midas pretty well : Always warm but never hot. Power is significant only when it can be seen in archievements, Midas had many chances to prove his incredible talent but fact is he constantly blew it. I'm not saying he sucks, I'm saying his current performances, either from an objective or subjective point of view does not deserve a spot in the top 5. I know NaDa played really bad in the finals and that would imply Midas is hotter right now but that seems to me a totally random statement even regarding TvZ, Iris has been much more convincing against Savior that Midas, his late game control being just inferior. Sorry, I'm just not seeing Midas in the 4th spot | ||
Vin{MBL}
5185 Posts
On March 13 2007 17:26 semioldguy wrote: I like the addition of the calendar. It is useful, but there is no thread to comment on it. (Though I don't know exactly how much there is to discuss about a calendar that wonldn't be discussed in the tournament threads.) Two weeks of apparently nothing on the scene of broodwar progaming does seem a bit depressing though. there is a thread on it on website feedback i think | ||
SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
Yeah, he's a beast. prelims rather. | ||
LosingID8
CA10824 Posts
NOT ANY MORE! NADA FOR #1 POWER RANK! 3-1 TvT IRIS 3-1 TvZ SAVIOR GG | ||
Mynock
4492 Posts
Just wanted to add that NaDa just made me so happy today for believing in him all the way. Very touching On March 08 2007 04:30 Mynock wrote: Haha, well, it's going to be a NaDa vs sAviOr final rematch, mark my words. No matter how people try and ignore the best player in SC:BW history, he's still there, at #1 spot, shining down upon all the disbelievers. The hottest player, and the one who should have been #1 in any ranking for quite a while now, with an amazing display of skill and strategy today. Go Lee Yun Yeol. I always believe... -Mynock | ||
muramasa
Canada1299 Posts
#2 sAviOr NaDa was as good as he's ever been today he completely raped both IriS and sAviOr. If he keeps playing this way no one is going to stop him. I'd like to see him play Bisu next just to see if his TvP is still ridiculously strong as well. | ||
Gryffindor_us
United States5605 Posts
If you can convince me that NaDa shouldn't be at #1 next PR then you will win for having the most potential to get someone to commit suicide. BTW you can't convince me that NaDa shouldn't be at #1. | ||
VioleTAK
Israel4279 Posts
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mikeymoo
Canada7170 Posts
Anyway. NADA NADA NADA NADA NADA NADA NADA NADA NADA NADA | ||
KizZBG
u gotta skate8152 Posts
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
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PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
And well.. on a all time ranking list.. which i would love to see, too he would be ahead of savior and everyone else except boxer.. by QUITE a big margin.. T_T nice job nada.. gG'S and put that man on 2nd place ! ( at least ) saviors losing some ground.. but still he should be 1. but.. not for any longer if he keeps on losing.. | ||
GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
-.- I think sAviOr still deserves to be #1, but it's looking mighty precarious now. He's ran out all his savings in terms of results and needs to start accomplishing things to keep his ranking. He's lost the invincibility aura, and can definitely be beaten TvZ and PvZ. | ||
PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
i think its Savior at first with basicaly the smallest lead..and a close very close 2nd place with NaDa Thats clear for me.. all the other ranks after those two ( 1.savior 2.nada ) is a bit.. hard to make, though o.O.. still i would find it funny and awesome if NaDa and Savior were both at 1. simply because nada keeps on rocking and savior rocked so hard but is slumping.. now that i announced that idea.. im pretty sure it wont happen, though.. but 1. Savior / NaDa would be the coolest imho ^^;; | ||
Last Romantic
United States20661 Posts
[ReD]NaDa! Return of the Four Kings! [alright so the limjin part of it is still sucking atm but hero protoss and tornado terran are doing fairly.] DA YOON YEOL SUN TZUUUUUU~ | ||
TheGreatOne
United States534 Posts
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pOOwarrior-
United States518 Posts
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Wasabi
United States3085 Posts
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ManaBlue
Canada10458 Posts
Savior will need time to recover now. | ||
jkillashark
United States5262 Posts
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KizZBG
u gotta skate8152 Posts
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~chut~
France1317 Posts
On March 18 2007 15:26 Wasabi wrote: No, I don't think Savior deserves the #1 spot anymore. Two players have already figured him out. In the next MSL/OSL, if they will come back, I'm pretty sure Savior will have a hard time advancing. When a player wins OSL, progamers tend to try and figure out the winner''s playstyle and counter it accordingly in the next season. That's why Nada barely skimped through OSL in Shinhan 3. They found holes in Nada's TvP against Anytime. He lost like all his TvPs shortly after his OSL win. I have no doubt the same will happen to Savior. He'll be losing more in the next games we'll see him in. He's just not the same player since he lost to Bisu. Yes, Savior is no longer the invincible monster that he was. As for who I think should take #1, it's debatable, though I think it should be Nada. Defeating the supposed high ranked players Savior and Iris is no joke, in different match ups and on the same day at that. Most of the games weren't close either, they were all complete domination by Nada. To me it looks like "i hate Savior, i love Nada, but i pretend i have arguments to back my point of view". | ||
PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
On March 19 2007 01:41 ~chut~ wrote: To me it looks like "i hate Savior, i love Nada, but i pretend i have arguments to back my point of view". because you are blin, biasd and probably a savior fan !? i can tell you one thing : IF NaDa would have had the results saviors is having recently he would never stay at first place. NEVER. DJetter would probably kick him out of the top 10.. Savior is slumping.. he deserves the 1st place no longer.. and if .. then with a very very little lead.. | ||
One Page Memory
Bulgaria2145 Posts
Lets see SuperFight 5 with Nada, Bisu and Savior and we will have more material to analyze. | ||
~chut~
France1317 Posts
Yes, he lost to Nada and Bisu, but when i see "2 players can beat him bo5, he can't stay #1, i'm sure i will lose more" honestly, wtf... it's not like "i can foresee defeats" is an argument to set a ranking yet, at least i hope. imo, there shouldn't even be a march ranking, as the major leagues are on hold, waiting for qualifiers. And if Nada had won OSL then came 2nd in MSL, i'd hope to see him at the #1 spot, even after losing a bo5 in a special event... | ||
PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
NaDa did do soo good compared to iris and especialy midas in terms of reaching finals ect.. but was NOT above them. And now u Mr. ~chut~ come and argue with saviors first and 2nd place. Actually Etter has to move savior down or at least put NaDa up by quite some ranks, because he said himself, that he looks at the power and how the gamers won.. I repeat myself : I bet if NaDa won OSL and got 2nd MSL and did play like savior did the last few games, Djetter would remove NaDa from the nr.1 spot. RIght now i would put NaDa and Savior at first place, because imho no one deserves to be ahead of the other right now.. And chut.. it doesnt matter if u expected savior to slump cause of the osl curse.. As if it mattered... right now in terms of ''POWER'' savior isnt anymore what he used to be. He is not as feared and not as brutal and perfect as he used to be.. So even if he stays at 1, which is okey for me.. NaDa has to get 2nd and saviors lead is very very thin.. once again : Put NaDa and Savior at 1. because imho no one deserves to be above the other right now.. then Bisu and Iris.. and put midas out of the top 5.. | ||
~chut~
France1317 Posts
No, it's just that Wasabi hates Savior probably, hence he hopes to see him lose. And he uses it as a solid point to move him down. So let's not get there please. I don't mind Savior going down the ranking if it's a fact he's going down. I also think that if there's a ranking this month, Nada should be probably #1 or #2. We'll see with the superfight, OPM is right it will be helpful. But omg, people going nuts because Savior lost a bo5 to Nada like "he's not the best anymore, everyone will defeat him". Hell, Nada is probably the 2nd best player atm and the fact that Savior was able to take down Casy makes me think it's not as clear as what Wasabi and others can say. | ||
PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
as i said twice already.. savior and NaDa are imho both first place right now.. ; D | ||
Wasabi
United States3085 Posts
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Hot_Bid
Braavos36362 Posts
let's see nada beat savior in a bo5 with july, yarnc, and savior picking 3 of the 4 maps instead of what happened at shinhan masters? nada played impressively and much better than he did before vs savior, but OSL finals are just so much more important. this win, factoring in the maps, should have the same weight as superfight3 if it wasn't for the more impressive nada win over iris. i agree nada should move up, likely above iris, but to put him above the msl or osl winners is placing far too much weight on this result. it was a very solid invite tournament TvT win and almost an expected TvZ win on TvZ maps even better than the OSL ones. how can you see that as more important than an entire OSL or MSL? Savior. Bisu. Nada. In that order. | ||
Wasabi
United States3085 Posts
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Mynock
4492 Posts
On March 19 2007 13:52 Hot_Bid wrote: wasabi i don't see how this win suddenly justifies nada jumping over someone who had just beaten nada in a far more important series (OSL Finals) and on much more balanced maps. let's see nada beat savior in a bo5 with july, yarnc, and savior picking 3 of the 4 maps instead of what happened at shinhan masters? nada played impressively and much better than he did before vs savior, but OSL finals are just so much more important. this win, factoring in the maps, should have the same weight as superfight3 if it wasn't for the more impressive nada win over iris. i agree nada should move up, likely above iris, but to put him above the msl or osl winners is placing far too much weight on this result. it was a very solid invite tournament TvT win and almost an expected TvZ win on TvZ maps even better than the OSL ones. how can you see that as more important than an entire OSL or MSL? Savior. Bisu. Nada. In that order. Dude... weak. I mean, seriously... Let me rephrase what you just said in a sentence: "sAviOr wasn't trying and the maps were gay" I keep repeating it to you over and over, and you just keep denying it over and over again. Event after event I'm telling you how NaDa can win this and that and then he just goes and does it. Event after event you keep digging up names who NaDa hasn't played against yet, point at them and say "well THAT GUY would surely smack NaDa's ass if they ever play!!" I don't know what kind of grudge you have against NaDa (I just never really understood anti-fan attitude anyway), but I believe you should reconsider where you stand on the matter, because I think you're kinda missing the point of what BW is all about... A couple more things rendering your arguments kinda pointless: -sAviOr got his ass handed to him on the map he himself picked. -How many people were crying about how sAviOr only lost to Bisu because he had no time to prepare between the finals? Well NaDa played two different MU BO5s on the same day and raped both his opponents silly. Do you know why? Cause he CAN. -Mynock | ||
Hot_Bid
Braavos36362 Posts
casy, iris, and nada each chose one of the shinhan masters maps, thats why the pool was 815/arkanoid/RLT/peaks not longinus/ark/RLT/hh i was just naming zerg players as an example, like what if the 4 shinhan masters were 3 zerg and 1 terran and they chose 4 z>t maps instead of the ones chosen? is it a surprise that there are very few maps in the shinhan OSLs that are not t>z? or that 3 of the 4 people in the invite are terran? PS - way to act like an idiot, i didn't attack you in my post i just outlined an argument, yet you come in all angry and condescending and you didn't even carefully read my post to see why i mentioned those other zerg players. i even said it should be savior-bisu-nada, i didn't even mention the other zergs except as examples for choosing maps. On March 19 2007 14:17 Wasabi wrote: Yeah, you just had to post something, do you? ... Yeah, go, find holes in whatever I just said and counter it, right? I won't bother arguing after this post, really. Arguing over freaking progamers is like a retard marathon. my argument was that the shinhan masters maps were even more t>z than the OSL finals, and it's not a surprise nada could win on 3 z>>>t maps and 1 z>=t map. remember superfight3, the map pack was arcadia, arkanoid, blitz, tau? where arkanoid was the "terran map" in that pack, where nada was supposed to win? now arkanoid is the "zerg map" lol. it just shows how tilted the maps are and how impressive savior's OSL win and win over casy are. please gain some basic reading comprehension before pressing post ok? | ||
Hot_Bid
Braavos36362 Posts
On March 19 2007 14:32 Mynock wrote: Dude... weak. I mean, seriously... Let me rephrase what you just said in a sentence: "sAviOr wasn't trying and the maps were gay" I keep repeating it to you over and over, and you just keep denying it over and over again. Event after event I'm telling you how NaDa can win this and that and then he just goes and does it. Event after event you keep digging up names who NaDa hasn't played against yet, point at them and say "well THAT GUY would surely smack NaDa's ass if they ever play!!" I don't know what kind of grudge you have against NaDa (I just never really understood anti-fan attitude anyway), but I believe you should reconsider where you stand on the matter, because I think you're kinda missing the point of what BW is all about... A couple more things rendering your arguments kinda pointless: -sAviOr got his ass handed to him on the map he himself picked. -How many people were crying about how sAviOr only lost to Bisu because he had no time to prepare between the finals? Well NaDa played two different MU BO5s on the same day and raped both his opponents silly. Do you know why? Cause he CAN. -Mynock mynock, i didn't say savior wasn't trying, i even said nada played much better than he did during OSL finals and should be moved ahead of iris, contrary to what i thought earlier =P and my post was mainly about placement between nada/savior/bisu in the PR, not about shinhan masters as you nicely summarized in your one inaccurate sentence. i just don't think shinhan masters win on these maps should overrule the OSL finals win by savior or MSL finals win by bisu, you really want to disagree with that? thats just like saying we should put savior ahead of everyone because he won the superfights. its NOT AS IMPORTANT. you are overly harsh on me i believe, i am not a nada anti-fan and i never made all those excuses you attribute to the masses =( i mean, "missing the point of what BW is about"? i think you take a look at the last 1000 posts and threads ive created and you really think im missing the spirit of progaming competition? i basically agreed with you that nada should be moved up but not above the big league winners, is it really that biased? i dont recall every constantly arguing with you about nada or doing any of those things in that big paragraph you wrote. i think you were just looking to jump on me for something, but w/e. also, what map would you have picked if you were savior facing 3 possible zvts? there are very slim pickings for Z in the Shinhan starleagues, and its no surprise it was 3 terrans and 1 zerg in the final masters. | ||
Mynock
4492 Posts
We've been through the same stuff already with IriS at the beginning of the month, now what happened since then? A powerhouse that is IriS, he who tore through GoRush, Midas, Goodfriend - he was defeated easily by NaDa, who then went on to rape the strongest player to date. And you come up with "i agree nada should move up, likely above iris"? What is the unlikely scenario then, in which he doesn't move up above IriS? Like I said, this is a weak argumentation. NaDa WAS above IriS according to my arguments in the begin of the month already. Phil is the one in the right here the most - sAviOr and NaDa are tied right now in terms of sheer power. Others are not even close. And Bisu is a big question mark which will either straighten up into an exclamation one, or shrink to a dot the last day of this month. -Mynock | ||
Hot_Bid
Braavos36362 Posts
the fact that we're contesting about 3 slots, you're arguing for 1.savior/nada and 2. bisu and i'm arguing for 1.savior 2. bisu 3. nada, it's really close... PR is for an entire month and we can't base it solely on one event right? the three most recent things are OSL finals, MSL finals, and this invite tourney. are we supposed to just forget what happened and go with these results, on clearly biased maps, as the sole indicator of player strength? again, we are REALLY CLOSE in opinion. all the hyperbole about anti-fans and personal attacks aren't necessary. how is this: I keep repeating it to you over and over, and you just keep denying it over and over again. Event after event I'm telling you how NaDa can win this and that and then he just goes and does it. Event after event you keep digging up names who NaDa hasn't played against yet, point at them and say "well THAT GUY would surely smack NaDa's ass if they ever play!!" I don't know what kind of grudge you have against NaDa (I just never really understood anti-fan attitude anyway), but I believe you should reconsider where you stand on the matter, because I think you're kinda missing the point of what BW is all about... not jumping on me? i didn't even do ANY of those things you said in that paragraph lol mynock just because someone disagrees with you slightly doesn't mean they do not understand what the spirit of competition is. | ||
Mynock
4492 Posts
It all ends up in peace talks over secure channels anyways, which is no different this time around either. OK, I got your point and will consider it. But please do consider mine as well. Unless we're in disagreement that the PR should depict the possibilities of the players to achieve results, as opposed to depictig their already earned results based on the previous month's performance. Edit: In light of above paragraph it seemed to me that you were suggesting that Bisu would prevail over NaDa were they face now, since his MSL win suggests so. Hence you want him to be above NaDa, since according to you, Bisu has more momentum. If that was not your implication I humbly withdraw my statement. However then I don't understand what your reasoning for keeping Bisu at #2 is. -Mynock | ||
GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
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Last Romantic
United States20661 Posts
I haven't seen Bisu's other races. But if they were to play all 9 MU, I think NaDa would come ahead ^^; not that it matters. On March 18 2007 23:56 ManaBlue wrote: Savior is simply being hit by the OSL curse. We all know better than to deny it's power after seeing it happen time and time again. Savior will need time to recover now. OSL curse to justify power ranking doesn't work, really. Also, NaDa demolished that thing, so it's over and done with. I want to wait till after superfight 5 to make better decision. At the moment, I think NaDa's 3-1s are pretty convincing, whereas sAviOr's 0-3 and 1-3 are pretty ugly. However, sAviOr DID 3-1 Casy [who is arguably not doing that well b/c of 0-3 vs Iris] which is a solid achievement. It's such a rock paper scissors thing. However, NaDa's win over sAviOr was really quite convincing. All three wins of NaDa were incredibly one sided, even the one on Arkanoid. As for the whole thing about T>>>>>Z maps, I don't think so. 815 and RT may be bad, like 60-40, but peaks is about 50%, and Arkanoid is HEAVILY Z favored at well over 70/80 % for Z. It works out to be about even. Now if the maps were NFZ, HoV, Neo Jungle Story perhaps you could argue map imba is good reason for the results. | ||
vnlegend
United States1389 Posts
The maps in the Shinhan masters were definitely favored for the T. Since 3 Terrans came, they obviously would pick maps that favor them. There's no point in even arguing this. You just don't pick maps that wouldn't favor you. Unfortunately, for Zergs, New Peaks couldn't give any advantage to Zerg at all. This shows how nicely balanced the maps are. 815 is extremely bad because there's only 1 gas, cheap for m/m and severely limit Zerg's choices. RLT is also T favored. Arkanoid is Z favored only at the lower levels of play, not at the highest levels. Both Nada and Iris were able to beat Savior on this map. Zerg depends on a way to hold off the Terran until their tech kicks in. On Arkanoid, the Terran has an easy way to expand and can open any of 3 fronts, effectively negating any sunken stalling by the Zerg. It also makes any ling backstab basically impossible because of the narrow paths and Terran can simply control all the opened passages. I think this was the reason that Savior didn't make mutas and instead felt he needed to get lurkers and early defilers. I thought mutas would've been better on this map, though Savior maybe couldn't get them in time. The lack of an early spire and scourges allowed Nada to accumlate vessels and wear him down, despite Savior's swarm stall. Lately Savior's strategy has been changing though. He doesn't build sunkens anymore, probably because Terrans are figuring out his tech timings, and instead prefers to make zerglings, which can both attack and defend. A lot of people call him stupid for not having sunkens, but sunkens are static defense. It's like stalling and waiting to die to tanks. So given the same amount of minerals, I think zerglings are a better choice for open maps than sunkens. It will be interesting to see how Savoir adapts to the new Terran changes. | ||
Last Romantic
United States20661 Posts
there's also that nasty thing about firebat/medic control shredding zerglings. I think this phase, like NaDa's no-turret style and always-SK-Terran style, will fade in time. | ||
~chut~
France1317 Posts
On March 19 2007 09:17 Wasabi wrote: Obviously, you have no grasp of OSL history and what happens to players after they win. Yes, I somewhat don't like Savior, but I don't let it get in the way to be irrational about it. I've been following progaming since Boxer's win over Yellow in coca cola OSL... I remember live reports on bw.com, Mensrea as a newser there even before tl.net existed. I think i do have a grasp of osl history. I know the curse. But i also know that to say "i'm sure it will happen, put him down the pr NOW" is irrational bullshit. It is not because almost every player hit a wall after an osl win that it is meant to be. Boxer didn't. July didn't really (lost twice in ro8). Nada, last osl, well, he did at first, but he was given a chance to qualify and he made it to the finals. You have no clue about Savior, neither do i, so wait and see what happens before stating his slump as a fact. | ||
rgfdxm
United States239 Posts
The argument in favor of Savior is that we have seen Savior vs Nada on different maps, and that was the Superfight and the OSL finals. The argument in favor of Nada is that that was then, and this is now (especially the Superfight, it's been a while since that). Let's look at the two: while Nada may have lost on T>=Z maps in the OSL finals, he did just rape the best ZvTer the game has ever seen. Taking a slightly longer view, Nada 1st and 2nd placed the last two OSLs and then avenged his loss in the second (and beating Iris was no small feat). Savior, in very recent history, 1st placed an OSL, 2nd placed an MSL, and took out every single damn TvZer there is. He lost one match to a terran, who he did just beat, but this time on worse maps. For those who still think that Arkanoid is a Z map, your information is flat-out wrong. Out of date. We had some evidence of a trend that way from this map stats thread, but we're talking TvZ 4:6, and remember that half of those wins were Savior and Yellow[Arnc]. Not exactly a convincing sample. From the recent PSL results, we have a much nicer sample with many more players and many more games. Thanks to SonuvBob for linking this in the PSL thread: Notice that 37:15 in the TvZ for Arkanoid. 71.2% for T is pretty damn convincing. Given the results we have, I think Nada/Bisu/Savior in any combination for top three is reasonable. Regardless of your specific top three configuration, I would hope that anyone can see that. If you want a more clear-cut answer, stop yelling at each other and go yell at OGN for making shitty maps. | ||
Mynock
4492 Posts
Let me clarify a few things: 1 - The oh-so-horrible RLT: sAviOr won both his ZvT encounters on it this Shinhan Masters, as well as both his semi-final and final encounters in the OSL (against NaDa and IriS) - that is 4-0 counting ONLY the most important and most recent matches - kinda makes you think, what if the guy likes that map? Also remember, the map was chosen by IriS - CJ represent. So yeah, (this is where you turn on) an extremely unbalanced pick that so highly contributed to sAviOr's demise (and this is where you turn off your sarcasm detectors). 2 - Neo Arkanoid is NaDa's playground - an obvious decision from him, and a mandatory win. sAviOr and IriS previously stated they think this map is good for Z tho. That's their opinion, but the stats say that sAviOr demolished Casy here, and also the most balanced game of the finals occurred here as well. 3 - Peaks were sAviOr's choice. And while he showed how to destroy Casy on it, he had absolutely nothing against NaDa's excellent strategy (idea) and tactics (execution) in his game vs him. sAviOr's choice, sAviOr's fall. 4 - 815 III was Casy's pick, as he really likes this one - and he managed to get the win out of it, even if only barely. And while I agree map balanced played an important role in the Casy vs sAviOr game 1, it was nothing at all in the NaDa vs sAviOr game - NaDa did a bunker rush ffs - there was no time for the map to express any balance issues at all. Not the lack of early second gas, not the secluded expansions, not the narrow ramps making it harder for lurkers to move - NONE of that! So to sum things up: NaDa claimed an early victory on on 815 and Peaks, and he did so because he played better, and would have done so all of his games, did he not a) play Arkanoid and b) try and early exp on RLT - which you just don't fuckin' do against sAviOr. It's really, that easy. -Mynock | ||
rgfdxm
United States239 Posts
Yes, it is absolutely the case that Nada did just rape the best ZvTer ever, maps notwithstanding. You can see that in my above post, I said as much, almost word for word. What my point was about the maps seems not to have been clear enough, so let me elucidate: In a situation with unbalanced maps, the person who is favored has to put up more results and play more convincingly than normal in order to earn his place. If two players are somewhat close in skill but one is better, say 55%-45%, but the maps are perhaps 40%-60%, the better player might lose most of the games. Groundbreaking conclusion, I know. But as obvious as that is, the implications are inescapable. If we know the maps suck, and the favored player is winning, we can't give him the credit he would deserve unless he wins a fucking lot. Sucks if he was the better player all along, but if he's better and has nice maps, he really should be winning enough to prove it. Simply put, Savior's win in the OSL finals was more impressive than Nada's win in the Shinhan Masters, just from a maps perspective. If you don't like that, then as I said before, your problem is with OGN, not all the "Nada-haters" you see around you. They're the ones who are making it hard for Nada to get the recognition he deserves. Oh yeah, and Nada himself too, for losing the OSL finals. | ||
Guybrush
Spain4744 Posts
The problem is only one of the wins against Savior was straight up. He bunkered him first game and proxy fac'd him the 3rd. And while the micro and multitask was impressing in game 2 he disturbed Savior alot with his first M&M rush. The question is if Nadas ownage against Iris and win against Savior can be compared to Saviors matches against Casy which were absolutely amazing. Rape on Peaks after a pretty bad start and defiler-rape on RLT, and July-style on Arkanoid. Surely Nada deserves to get #2, but this isnt due to Bisus loss against Casy(which imo is totally irrelevant), but rather him being overall impressing in his matches lately. Iris shouldnt be moved away from 4th even though he lost against Nada. As mentioned he had an impressive route on the way to top4, and in this in addition to Nada playing close to perfect against him, is good enough reason to keep him there. I guess alot of answers will be answered in the upcoming Superfight, where Savior has raped every time he's participated (#1,#3 and #4). Midas definitely has something to prove if he's chosen to play in that. | ||
PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
PhiL | ||
Guybrush
Spain4744 Posts
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Vin{MBL}
5185 Posts
He sould be 2nd i think... with SaviOr still first imo. | ||
Hot_Bid
Braavos36362 Posts
On March 20 2007 10:53 rgfdxm wrote: I was under the impression that if every zerg under the sun loses on RLT, but Savior wins, then that means Savior is really fucking good. You seem to think it means that Savior likes the map so it doesn't count. Regardless, you are right that Savior got outplayed, but don't try to stretch that point too far or it'll break. Outplaying him doesn't change the fact that the maps were unpleasant. Yes, it is absolutely the case that Nada did just rape the best ZvTer ever, maps notwithstanding. You can see that in my above post, I said as much, almost word for word. What my point was about the maps seems not to have been clear enough, so let me elucidate: In a situation with unbalanced maps, the person who is favored has to put up more results and play more convincingly than normal in order to earn his place. If two players are somewhat close in skill but one is better, say 55%-45%, but the maps are perhaps 40%-60%, the better player might lose most of the games. Groundbreaking conclusion, I know. But as obvious as that is, the implications are inescapable. If we know the maps suck, and the favored player is winning, we can't give him the credit he would deserve unless he wins a fucking lot. Sucks if he was the better player all along, but if he's better and has nice maps, he really should be winning enough to prove it. Simply put, Savior's win in the OSL finals was more impressive than Nada's win in the Shinhan Masters, just from a maps perspective. If you don't like that, then as I said before, your problem is with OGN, not all the "Nada-haters" you see around you. They're the ones who are making it hard for Nada to get the recognition he deserves. Oh yeah, and Nada himself too, for losing the OSL finals. THIS MAN SPEAKS THE TRUTH just because michael jordan wins shooting with his left hand, that doesn't mean all shooters are better shooting left handed. logic police. TRUTH if you take savior's stats away from longinus and RLT the T>Z stats are pretty ridiculous. | ||
GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
"It's an imba ZvT map. Why? Take out Savior and Yellow[ArnC] and T wins so much more!" yeah, no shit, because if you take out the two best zergs right now (and the only ones playing a lot on it) of course the stats are going to shift towards the T's. that's like saying "take away nada's and casy's and iris' and midas' wins on RLT and it's such a Z >>>> T map" Either you count all the stats, or you don't count them at all. Selectively looking at it lets you twist it any way you want. As for the NaDa > Savior, let's look at the maps: Peaks: Savior's choice Arkanoid: NaDa's choice. Not imba towards T so much as it is imba towards NaDa. 815: Bunker rush. Don't even start that shit about how the map is imbalanced and therefore NaDa won, unless you're prepared to defend how 815 somehow makes bunker rushes stronger RLT: Savior won If we know the maps suck, and the favored player is winning, we can't give him the credit he would deserve unless he wins a fucking lot. What we're saying is that the maps didn't suck this time. They weren't imbalanced in favor of Terran. And Savior still couldn't win. I agree with leaving Savior at #1, but to discount NaDa's performance because "OSL mattered more" or "maps imbaaaaa" is insulting | ||
PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
its plain stupid and fan boyish.. | ||
rgfdxm
United States239 Posts
You know what argument I hate most in here? Good thing nobody made that argument. Try reading what I write."It's an imba ZvT map. Why? Take out Savior and Yellow[ArnC] and T wins so much more!" Even conceding your point, the OSL finals still did matter more. Nada > Savior on T=Z, fine. But Savior > Nada on T>Z. Is it a huge difference? No. But I don't think it's equal. As for discounting Nada's performance, I answered all of this in my last post, so should I copy and paste, or summarize? Summary time: Whaaaaa! Maps imbaaaaaa! =D | ||
sundance
Slovakia3201 Posts
On March 19 2007 14:32 Mynock wrote: Dude... weak. I mean, seriously... Let me rephrase what you just said in a sentence: "sAviOr wasn't trying and the maps were gay" This one is god damn funny in the perspective of your previous post On March 06 2007 08:39 Mynock wrote: [ If anybody tries making a point out of "Iris destroying Casy" we have to stop right there. Are you honestly implying that Casy was fighting equally strongly for the #3 spot as for his entry into the Finals? Surely not. Let's talk about hypocrisy. | ||
Mynock
4492 Posts
On March 22 2007 04:13 sundance wrote: This one is god damn funny in the perspective of your previous post Let's talk about hypocrisy. Yeah let's. Casy losing a chance to get to finals and fighting for scraps, and sAviOr fighting for $25k in an über-prestigious tournament. (This tournament was for the WINNERS of 4 OSL and the winner of a special pre-masters tourney). So yeah, let's talk about hypocrisy... wait, what? Oh spikes! You're that same idiot who thought he had an argument against me by having a go at my signature. How the fuck did you get me to talk to you again? -Mynock | ||
sundance
Slovakia3201 Posts
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
I have yet to see Savior get outplayed in a long game ZvP Doesn't it speak further to his lack of skill that he can't stretch the game out that long in his losses, that he's not just losing close ZvP's, but got his ass absolutely handed to him by Bisu? On March 21 2007 10:47 rgfdxm wrote: Good thing nobody made that argument. if you take savior's stats away from longinus and RLT the T>Z stats are pretty ridiculous. Mmmm? On March 21 2007 10:47 rgfdxm wrote: As for discounting Nada's performance, I answered all of this in my last post, so should I copy and paste, or summarize? Summary time: Whaaaaa! Maps imbaaaaaa! =D I did read it. You presumed the imbalance of the maps, and went from there to explain that the finals should be viewed accordingly differently, since Savior had an uphill battle, so to speak, so since NaDa didn't totally rape Savior, Savior is still ahead. I explained to you that imbalance made no effect whatsoever in the finals. The main thrust of your argument came from "Casy Iris Nada picked 3 maps, Savior picked 1, therefore 3 maps must be T >>>> Z". This presumes that the maps are T >>>>> Z to begin with; I doubt that. (Wouldn't that make Peaks Z>>>T?) You have to offer more evidence than just that - stats, or etc. But yes, the stats do show something - Neo Arkanoid statistically is pretty T favored. (Whether it favors T's in general or just NaDa's specific playstyle we don't know.) And yet, we have to remember that each player got to pick a map in this final match. Presumably they would pick the best possible map for themselves (and there were several Z > T maps over the last several OSL's). So for those purposes we can safely take Peaks and Arkanoid out of the discussion. This leaves RLT (which Savior won) and 815. Is 815 imba for T? I don't know. Maybe. But it doesn't matter, because balanced games can be played on imbalanced maps. And here Savior can't use map imba as an excuse. He just didn't stop a bunker rush. That's his own fault, not the map's. I vote for savior at the top, though, simply because NaDa does not deserve number 1. Nor does Bisu. Savior's on the very last of his earned credit, though - one more loss and he's out of the top slot. | ||
~chut~
France1317 Posts
And iirc, osl decided that theirs maps for shinhan 3 should be good for tvz (i still don't understand why, btw). it's probably not the subject here, but i thought almost everyone would agree that most of the maps in shinhan 3 were hard for zvt. But i completely agree about the fact that maps imbalance wasn't so much of a factor in the masters final. | ||
One Page Memory
Bulgaria2145 Posts
On March 22 2007 06:08 sundance wrote: lol @ über-prestigious tournament Whats so funny here to lol? | ||
sundance
Slovakia3201 Posts
What so über-prestigious about some special event. In my books it has same value as a SuperFight. | ||
PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
ect.. | ||
One Page Memory
Bulgaria2145 Posts
On March 22 2007 13:19 sundance wrote: What so über-prestigious about some special event. In my books it has same value as a SuperFight. Next time Shinhan Bank surely will name it "some special event", not the ugly "Masters". And it's way more than SuperFight. | ||
Hot_Bid
Braavos36362 Posts
superfight 3 was OSL winner vs MSL winner shinhan masters was 3 OSL winners and a qualifier i don't see how one is "way more" prestigious than the other | ||
Last Romantic
United States20661 Posts
Masters was 2 back to back bo5s in different MU. .shrug. I don't think it's "that much more" prestigious. However, Power Rank isn't based on prestige. It's just on wins, and how awesome/not awesome the wins are. NaDa's 3-1 of the best TvT and 3-1 of the best ZvT in the world on the same day is more impressive than sAviOr's 3-1 of the best TvZer, I suppose. The NaDa 3-1 was also much more rape-filled. All of the NaDa wins were very one-sided. | ||
Mynock
4492 Posts
On March 22 2007 22:21 Hot_Bid wrote: explain why its more than superfight? superfight 3 was OSL winner vs MSL winner shinhan masters was 3 OSL winners and a qualifier i don't see how one is "way more" prestigious than the other Oh, not all the superfights. But you know, 1 bo5 for NaDa vs sAviOr in 1 SuperFight, vs 3bo5s, plus a tourney to select 1 of the players, plus the prize is bigger, plus the golden ring you get for your win... Yeah, it's a lot more. But really, you just have to look at how much more talked about this tourney is than any of the previous SuperFights. Now the next SuperFight also looks like a huge thing, but prestige is determined not just by measures of size. It just so happens that OGN is viewed by more people, hence their tournaments are hyped up more and have more interest from the community. Also, whoever started comparing the Masters to the SuperFIght? I was talking about fighting in the finals of the Masters vs fighting for 3rd place in Shinhan 03, that's all. I never mentioned the SuperFights. Don't drift away from the point. If anything, Hot_Bid, you should ask sundance why he thinks these special tourneys are not prestigious "in his book". -Mynock | ||
SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
in a freestyle rap battle. | ||
sundance
Slovakia3201 Posts
On March 23 2007 03:16 Mynock wrote: Oh, not all the superfights. But you know, 1 bo5 for NaDa vs sAviOr in 1 SuperFight, vs 3bo5s, plus a tourney to select 1 of the players, plus the prize is bigger, plus the golden ring you get for your win... Yeah, it's a lot more. But really, you just have to look at how much more talked about this tourney is than any of the previous SuperFights. Now the next SuperFight also looks like a huge thing, but prestige is determined not just by measures of size. It just so happens that OGN is viewed by more people, hence their tournaments are hyped up more and have more interest from the community. Also, whoever started comparing the Masters to the SuperFIght? I was talking about fighting in the finals of the Masters vs fighting for 3rd place in Shinhan 03, that's all. I never mentioned the SuperFights. Don't drift away from the point. If anything, Hot_Bid, you should ask sundance why he thinks these special tourneys are not prestigious "in his book". -Mynock Show me where I said they are not prestigious. What I said is masters == superfight pretty much And indirectly that OSL >> these two, what is common sense. These special events have their prestige (but calling any of them uber-prestigious is just retarded) but imo 3rd place in osl is more prestigious then any of these two. | ||
Hot_Bid
Braavos36362 Posts
On March 23 2007 03:16 Mynock wrote: Oh, not all the superfights. But you know, 1 bo5 for NaDa vs sAviOr in 1 SuperFight, vs 3bo5s, plus a tourney to select 1 of the players, plus the prize is bigger, plus the golden ring you get for your win... Yeah, it's a lot more. But really, you just have to look at how much more talked about this tourney is than any of the previous SuperFights. Now the next SuperFight also looks like a huge thing, but prestige is determined not just by measures of size. It just so happens that OGN is viewed by more people, hence their tournaments are hyped up more and have more interest from the community. Also, whoever started comparing the Masters to the SuperFIght? I was talking about fighting in the finals of the Masters vs fighting for 3rd place in Shinhan 03, that's all. I never mentioned the SuperFights. Don't drift away from the point. If anything, Hot_Bid, you should ask sundance why he thinks these special tourneys are not prestigious "in his book". -Mynock mynock, i am allowed to address other people in the thread, i'm not only obsessed with you, so please keep that in mind before you start saying stuff like "i never mentioned the superfights!!" every post of mine is not directed towards you ok? someone else compared it. nobody is denying that shinhan masters is a prestigious tournament that the players wanted to win. all i am saying is that OSL and MSL are on one level, and the superfights and shinhan masters on the next. the SM aren't "much more" prestigious than the superfights as they are both second tier invite only one time (in this case one qualifier and one final) tournaments. they do not compare to the starleagues. | ||
Mynock
4492 Posts
How many 3rd place finishers of the major leagues you can name? How many SF winners? There you go. But if you really want to compare the 3rd finishers, the SuperFights, and the ShinHan Masters, sure: In terms of prize money, SHM wins, altho SF is close. In terms of who's going to be remembered more, SHM wins. In terms of trophies, SHM wins (trophy plus ring). In terms of tournament level difficulty and competition, SHM wins (you have to WIN an OSL, OR the ShinHan PreMasters, it's not invite only, and it's not a fight for a 3rd place where you couldn't advance). So yeah, if this tourney is not über-prestigious I dunno what is. The only thing ranked higher for me is an OSL final, which is the pinnacle of modern pro-BW. MSL is very close. Awaiting your reasonings now, if there are any... PS.: To think it all started because sundance was being retarded and couldn't grasp that Casy wouldn't fight as hard for 3rd place OSL as sAviOr would for a win in SHM. Don't post again sundance, you're giving people from Central Europe a bad name. -Mynock | ||
sundance
Slovakia3201 Posts
How many 3rd place finishers of the major leagues you can name? Every single one since freemure won one and ssamjang was third. Anytime. How many SF winners? I remeber savior a none others. I'm not quite sure how many sf we've already had. | ||
sundance
Slovakia3201 Posts
On March 23 2007 10:21 Mynock wrote: PS.: To think it all started because sundance was being retarded and couldn't grasp that Casy wouldn't fight as hard for 3rd place OSL as sAviOr would for a win in SHM. Don't post again sundance, you're giving people from Central Europe a bad name. -Mynock I love your intelligent way of arguing. | ||
Mynock
4492 Posts
I'm not arguing with you. I'm telling you to stop posting. I'm arguing with members who actually possess the intellectual capacity to do so. I think I'm done talking to you -sundance With posts like this your're basically making a fool of yourself. lol @ über-prestigious tournament Now this is a retarded way of arguing. Unless you can actually come up with a SINGLE argument in favor of what you're saying, we can actually talk. I'm eagerly awaiting the moment it happens. -Mynock | ||
sundance
Slovakia3201 Posts
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sundance
Slovakia3201 Posts
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intelinside
United States982 Posts
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Last.Midnight
Australia871 Posts
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Vin{MBL}
5185 Posts
On March 23 2007 18:59 intelinside wrote: SAVIOR SAVIOR SAVIOR SAVIOR SAVIOR SAVIOR SAVIOR SAVIOR SAVIOR SAVIOR SAVIOR SAVIOR SAVIOR SAVIOR SAVIOR SAVIOR SAVIOR SAVIOR SAVIOR SAVIOR SAVIOR SAVIOR SAVIOR SAVIOR SAVIOR SAVIOR SAVIOR SAVIOR SAVIOR SAVIOR SAVIOR SAVIOR SAVIOR SAVIOR SAVIOR SAVIOR SAVIOR SAVIOR SAVIOR SAVIOR SAVIOR SAVIOR SAVIOR SAVIOR SAVIOR SAVIOR SAVIOR SAVIOR SAVIOR SAVIOR SAVIOR SAVIOR SAVIOR SAVIOR SAVIOR SAVIOR SAVIOR SAVIOR SAVIOR then nada then bisu come on man that's annoying | ||
PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
right now its like savi... nada bisu before the last games it was saviorsaviorsavior... D: | ||
Vin{MBL}
5185 Posts
On March 26 2007 05:57 MaGic~PhiL wrote: its not annoying, its false right now its like savi... nada bisu before the last games it was saviorsaviorsavior... D: hahhhahahha yea savior reign has COME TO AND END | ||
LosingID8
CA10824 Posts
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mikeymoo
Canada7170 Posts
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KizZBG
u gotta skate8152 Posts
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Myxomatosis
United States2392 Posts
Savior Nada Iris Top 4 hi. | ||
Vin{MBL}
5185 Posts
On March 31 2007 10:44 KizZBG wrote: Bisu showed that he can beat Nada and Savior...AGAIN. ya this pwer rank needs updating URGENTLY~~~~ | ||
TheGreatOne
United States534 Posts
Edit: basically hot bid and the rdgrshfi w.e guy knows what they're talking about. Mynock is clearly a biased nada fan. If you put nada and savior up on a really balanced map like luna or rush hour 3 or something of that sort and they played 100 games savior would probably win 75 or more. | ||
Wasabi
United States3085 Posts
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Mynock
4492 Posts
On March 31 2007 13:59 TheGreatOne wrote: I still dont see how so many of you thought just because nada 3-1'ed savior on favored tvz maps that he deserved to be over bisu. When bisu 3-0'ED savior on pretty balanced maps. And 3-0'ED Nal_ra. The bisu vs casy game is pretty irrevelant id say. Clearly if he can beat nada that game was just a fluke. Id say Bisu #1 next month and its a throwup between nada and savior for #2 probably savior though. Edit: basically hot bid and the rdgrshfi w.e guy knows what they're talking about. Mynock is clearly a biased nada fan. If you put nada and savior up on a really balanced map like luna or rush hour 3 or something of that sort and they played 100 games savior would probably win 75 or more. Should I put it in my signature that I'm a NaDa fan? Or maybe I shouldn't, people always seem so genuinely happy when they make that discovery, it's like they finally figured me out. I won't rob you of your pleasure then. I was somewhat disappointed in NaDa's decisions in those games, but still, what I wanted to see happened, and it happened in such a great form: NaDa vs Bisu was an absolute classic. However I don't understand what you're basing your opinions on? The 2 games we saw them play vs random opponents? They sure were indicative, but not so much. SaviOr can do a lot better than that, especially if he prepares vs a specific opponent on specific maps. I think this randomness doesn't bother NaDa so much, but maybe I'm wrong. But please, you ask how it was possible for some ppl to think NaDa should be tied with sAviOr for 1st place? Well have you seen the game Bisu vs NaDa? If you have I'm sure you'd agree that that game was CLOSE. And both players showed some EXTREME skills. So that's why. If 1 hilariously close and insanely interesting game is enough for you to judge... then your judgment is shallow. Besides, Bisu essentially won the game because of NaDa's mistake, unlike in his game vs sAviOr, where he won because he played his cards very very well. As for sAviOr, I'm sure we'll see him recuperated soon. People nowadays play him specifically in a style that beats him, and that was to be expected after he pulled the same trick so many times. He'll do fine, it's not like the OSL win is going to kill him. If you put nada and savior up on a really balanced map like luna or rush hour 3 or something of that sort and they played 100 games savior would probably win 75 or more. And you base that on... absolutely nothing? Yeah, let's put them on Luna, that will show their real skills. What the hell are you talking about... Oh, and one final thing to note: Edit: basically hot bid and the rdgrshfi w.e guy knows what they're talking about. Mynock is clearly a biased nada fan. On March 23 2007 20:50 Mynock wrote: Anyway, I have no idea about balance so far (I don't trust anybody's word if they say they do, either), so I'm really expecting some mixed and exciting results on 31st. Ooops? GG no re with reps, sry. -Mynock | ||
GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
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Mynock
4492 Posts
On March 31 2007 14:58 GrandInquisitor wrote: it's weird cause this power rankings is going to have nothing at all almost to go off of except superfight... Aaaaand... the Shinhan Masters, aaaand the Kespa tourney -_- -Mynock | ||
TheGreatOne
United States534 Posts
On March 31 2007 14:46 Mynock wrote: Should I put it in my signature that I'm a NaDa fan? Or maybe I shouldn't, people always seem so genuinely happy when they make that discovery, it's like they finally figured me out. I won't rob you of your pleasure then. I was somewhat disappointed in NaDa's decisions in those games, but still, what I wanted to see happened, and it happened in such a great form: NaDa vs Bisu was an absolute classic. However I don't understand what you're basing your opinions on? The 2 games we saw them play vs random opponents? They sure were indicative, but not so much. SaviOr can do a lot better than that, especially if he prepares vs a specific opponent on specific maps. I think this randomness doesn't bother NaDa so much, but maybe I'm wrong. But please, you ask how it was possible for some ppl to think NaDa should be tied with sAviOr for 1st place? Well have you seen the game Bisu vs NaDa? If you have I'm sure you'd agree that that game was CLOSE. And both players showed some EXTREME skills. So that's why. If 1 hilariously close and insanely interesting game is enough for you to judge... then your judgment is shallow. Besides, Bisu essentially won the game because of NaDa's mistake, unlike in his game vs sAviOr, where he won because he played his cards very very well. As for sAviOr, I'm sure we'll see him recuperated soon. People nowadays play him specifically in a style that beats him, and that was to be expected after he pulled the same trick so many times. He'll do fine, it's not like the OSL win is going to kill him. And you base that on... absolutely nothing? Yeah, let's put them on Luna, that will show their real skills. What the hell are you talking about... Oh, and one final thing to note: Ooops? GG no re with reps, sry. -Mynock I believe that map to be pretty hard for toss vs terran so id say it showed how much more skilled bisu was than nada that he won on it. I'm basing my opinions off the replays of nada and savior. Theres like 3 or 4 of them savior wins every game pretty distinguishly. One on r-point a pretty favored tvz map and savior beat him. One on luna and rov both pretty big rapes. The point is any normal map where zerg isnt forced to majorly alter their play savior will dominate most terrans. I assumed you had seen them. Also it was just utterly annoying me you thinking nada deserved #2 over bisu when all he had done was the same as bisu(beating savior and the best pvp'er and tvt'er of each race)but with less as good as results and on easier maps. It might just be me but Id rather judge a players skill on a map like luna than 815.. | ||
Mynock
4492 Posts
On March 31 2007 15:14 TheGreatOne wrote: I believe that map to be pretty hard for toss vs terran so id say it showed how much more skilled bisu was than nada that he won on it. I'm basing my opinions off the replays of nada and savior. Theres like 3 or 4 of them savior wins every game pretty distinguishly. One on r-point a pretty favored tvz map and savior beat him. One on luna and rov both pretty big rapes. The point is any normal map where zerg isnt forced to majorly alter their play savior will dominate most terrans. I assumed you had seen them. Also it was just utterly annoying me you thinking nada deserved #2 over bisu when all he had done was the same as bisu(beating savior and the best pvp'er and tvt'er of each race)but with less as good as results and on easier maps. So you're basing your opinions on games that happened almost half a year ago? If those are the replays that you're talking about, because that's when I saw them. Not a very good way of making predictions if you ask me - friendly matches from half a year ago... And you're saying Monty Hall is favoring Terran in TvP. Again, you're basing your whole ranking on the basis of your own private opinions with no other basis whatsoever. That's pretty lackluster. Should I conclude now, that sAviOr sux major ass because he didn't beat a slumping oov on a map that in my opinion is heavily Z>>T and hence oov is a better player? Not really, because that would be a pretty stupid thing to do. sAviOr is a great player, but acting like he's impossible to beat is pretty reckless. Acting like he's in a slump because of these games is equally reckless. Acknowledging that we do not have even nearly enough info on how these maps fare with particular matchups/races/players and hence agree that the mixed nature and unpredictability of the results is quite frankly the only prediction that was to be made, is in my opinion the right thing to do and that's exactly what I'm doing here. That said, Bisu looks very very hot about now, so even tho I think the top3 is pretty much bunched up right now, I will only be disappointed if I see sAviOr on #1 still, and any of the Triumvirate members (NaDa, Bisu, sAviOr) out of the top3. Any other configuration is not worth any of my time arguing about anymore, as I think I overdid on that already. As per minute: #1 - Bisu, #2 - NaDa, #3 - sAviOr. Regardless of it's uncharted maps, since there's not much to go off from this month, the SuperFight 5 should play a major role in the decision making. PS.: It might just be me but Id rather judge a players skill on a map like luna than 815.. Or it might have just been you who missed the part of this thread where we discussed that the maps didn't play a role AT ALL in Shinhan Masters, especially the one on 815, where NaDa didn't even try to utilise any of it's advantages and instead killed sAviOr with a bunker rush. Please stop with the argument of imba maps for SH. It's getting very old now. -Mynock | ||
Mynock
4492 Posts
So now, Toss wins MSL, Zerg wins OSL, Terran wins ShinHan Masters, Toss wins SuperFight 5. Looks like P is getting an advantage here, maybe we should start whining about imbalance now, to show them how fucking annoying it can be :D But, they'll get crushed in the upcoming major leagues anyway, so no biggie... -Mynock | ||
Ketama)Djin(
Germany2590 Posts
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PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
sounds weird but is actually the truth.. Savior is slumping a bit but he did do soooo well before.. NaDa is playing solid as hell but lost in this racesuperfight stuff.. but did do so good all the time before Bisu is just godly lately.. but just lately.. so.. no way to put him above savior or nada.. so imho : 1#NaDa,Savior,Bisu 2#Iris 3# ect.. D ; | ||
Vin{MBL}
5185 Posts
2 nada 3 saviour | ||
tfeign
United States2977 Posts
On March 23 2007 09:33 Hot_Bid wrote: mynock, i am allowed to address other people in the thread, i'm not only obsessed with you, so please keep that in mind before you start saying stuff like "i never mentioned the superfights!!" every post of mine is not directed towards you ok? someone else compared it. nobody is denying that shinhan masters is a prestigious tournament that the players wanted to win. all i am saying is that OSL and MSL are on one level, and the superfights and shinhan masters on the next. the SM aren't "much more" prestigious than the superfights as they are both second tier invite only one time (in this case one qualifier and one final) tournaments. they do not compare to the starleagues. Saying that MSL/OSL is at a level beyond Shinhan Masters is like saying MBC Survivor is at a level beyond MSL. What a joke. SM is not a second tier invite only. It is a top-tier qualification league. In order to just qualify to OSL, you have to win through ODT, therefore OSL is a level beyond ODT In order to just qualiy for SM, you have to win through OSL, therefore SM is a level beyond OSL To win SM is HARDER than to win OSL. What's the big deal with invite tournaments? Superfight means just as much as MSL, OSL, Proleague, or anything else. By the way Superfight 5 isn't an invite tournament. It's a vote-in tournament. Players aren't voted because of random luck. Players are voted to play because they're truly who the Korean fans as well as professionals think are the cream of the crop in their certain races. Really, it's not about the "prestige" of the tournament, it's about the quality of players. I don't see the difference between Savior 3-1 Nada in Supefight or Savior 3-1 Nada in OSL. It's the same exact match, the same exact players. Maps aside, if Savior 3-1 Nada is OSL, and Nada 3-1 Savior back in SM, then they're pretty much equal. Saying Savior > Nada because he beat him in OSL, a more prestigious tournament, while Nada beat Savior in SM, a less prestigious tournament, is just bullshit. Maps may have played a role, and you can make an argument based on that (but even this argument has been shot down pretty well), but making an argument based on the prestige of the tournaments is nonsense. Not to mention, I can't see how OSL > SM. Child manages to get to the starleague, while Jaedong hasn't. How come Child didn't get to play in Superfight 5 while Jaedong did? There's a reason why Jaedong is selected to play in Superfight while Child has to sit out, and that's because Jaedong is a better player than Child. If the Korean fans and professionals think the same way as you do, then Child would get more support to play in Superfight 5 than Jaedong, because Child has manged to accomplished more in more prestigious leagues than Jaedong has. The argument that winning in more prestigious leagues = better player is completely flawed. The fact is, just because a player wins on a more prestigious league (which prestigious being subjective), it doesn't mean he's a better player. For this very same reason, Jaedong is viewed in the eye of the public as a better player than someone else like Child. | ||
SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
SM is an invite. OSL is a qualified tourney. JD hasn't made the OSL cuz it's THAT hard. A player of JD's caliber hasn't made OSL shows why to win the whole thing is harder. Simple enough. SM was an all-star invite using champions and the #1 non champion player but the fact that it's an invite doesn't change. | ||
LosingID8
CA10824 Posts
On April 01 2007 11:54 SuperJongMan wrote: i view it more as by winning OSL, they qualified for the masters tourney, rather than being merely "invited"That argument is just dumb man. SM is an invite. OSL is a qualified tourney. JD hasn't made the OSL cuz it's THAT hard. A player of JD's caliber hasn't made OSL shows why to win the whole thing is harder. Simple enough. SM was an all-star invite using champions and the #1 non champion player but the fact that it's an invite doesn't change. | ||
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