GoRush – If I had 11 slots to fill, you’d be #11. Your record as of late is impressive, but you’ve accomplished it chiefly against scrubs—Hoony, Sea.Pure, Shark, Shine, and Savior’s Terran. Your only “real” wins have been against Sea in the ODT—and he went on to win that series 2-1—and Up, who’s known for his inconsistent play. Even up 1-0 against Sea in the MSL, I just don’t think you’re going to pull out the win.
Light – You just can’t seem to get over that great player “hump.” You always look good—so, so good. Then you run into a top player and get crushed. Don’t turn into another Midas, Light. No one wants that.
Firebathero – You’ve got to win something other than TvTs—and it looks like oov is even going to beat you at that—to make it onto the Power Rank.
Flash – I wouldn’t be surprised to see you advance to the OSL Ro8—well, ok, I would be a little surprised—but I’m not willing to take a chance on you after seeing how you reacted to Savior’s zerglings.
Up – It’s really a shame that you ended up in Group D in the OSL. You’d be an easy pick to advance from Group C, but it looks as if you’re going to have a tough time making it to the Ro8.
Nada – I was being a bit facetious last month when I called Midas terrible, but you really are.
Much – You’ve been an all-star in the Proleague for CJ, but I can’t keep making excuses for why you’re not in the OSL or MSL. You had tough groups, but it’s the top players who overcome those groups.
Bifrost – I only put your name here so that I could laugh about how you crumpled like a cheap piñata when faced with the big stick that is a lineup of Starleague-caliber players.
As much as I love July I dont think he deserves a spot. Well actually same thing for GGPlay and Reach, but there arent really any other worthy ones. Im assuming GGPlays recent matches against Nada, Casy, and Stork had some influence here
Except Flash. Hes won more PL matches and allthough those players were far from special his record is pretty good now. Using a loss against Mr.Savior isnt a good enough reason as the game was way too short to determine his TvZ skills imo.
I've touted Light as Neo-Midas ever since his breakthrough. Same awesome mechanics and solid TvP, pretty good TvZ, and a unstable TvT. Seems to have the same Midas-issues with big-matches too.
Sucks that Hwasin has been impressing me more than anyone on the list, but obviously deserves max top3 on the rank. If he only didnt have that annoying look.
Overall a nice ranking, the last three spots are pretty random and noone sticks out enough to deserve them(except Flash imo).
I think JulyZerg might be able to gain a momentum out of his recent commitment with SKT1 – he seems to be very comfortable since his demands have been fulfilled. So I would favor July over Kang Min in their next challenge, and I predict July to pass him in the next PR. Great feature!
On June 02 2007 14:36 DJEtterStyle wrote: Bifrost – I only put your name here so that I could laugh about how you crumpled like a cheap piñata when faced with the big stick that is a lineup of Starleague-caliber players.
Hwasin is overrated >_>... Id put oov nal_ra and july as 4-5-6 and sea and hwasin following... I still havnt seen Hwasin beat any GOOD players... (you cant count a win against nada, since as you just said yourself... nada is playing TERRIBLE now..)
I also think that savior probably is the best player right now, with probably only bisu being able to stop him.. which would make bisu the better player, but I think a good terran like Oov might be able to stop him from stopping savior
<3 to see July back in his old shape. Also <3 Reach! Hope he keeps his starleague play up...
Overall pretty nice ranking, probably the best one so far!
Just kidding, I think the rating are fine, i'm been saying Hwasin was not just a tvz wonder for awhile now, I am also a ggplay fanboi. :[ how the hell does he manage big games like that?
Ratings are great and well thought out as always. I'm so happy to see the mantoss up there. There are plenty of Terrans in the OSL for him to shit stomp, so don't think about moving him anywhere.
As for Hwasin, I don't have any confidence in him either. This past month he's really REALLY surprised me. I can't believe he's winning so many games, so convincingly.
I'd probably bump down Hwasin and Nal_rA (yeah, I know he wins, but I feel like he's going to implode any second against someone better) a slot or two. Light has been extremely disappointing, I think I've bet on him for almost every game and he's lost all of them.
I hope NaDa defeats the legend of the fall again next season. That is, if he gets out of his current slump. Oh btw, djetterstyle is rank 1 in liquibet. He truly deserves to decide the rankings with his liquibet skill.
i personally think flash should be put into the rankings instead of one of the last 3, but i have to agree that he hasnt played that many games. however, in the games he has played save the one against savior, hes looked untouchable.
I don't think you see the implications of NaDa's slump... It could mean his mother or brother or someone else close died again. But judging by his current play, it looks more like his whole family has been massacred in cold blood in front of his very eyes or something...
1. Savior should be number 1. 2. July hasn't played enough games really to be on the PR yet. He gets the nod simply because he is July which shouldn't happen. The other big names like Bisu, Savior, iloveoov, and Nal_rA actually have a bunch of games to back up their greatness. 3. Reach gets extra bias because he is Reach. Yes he has played good lately but I still don't think he should be on the PR yet. You say for example that FBH isn't on because he's only shown good TvTs lately but the same is true of Reach and PvT. There is a very obvious July and Reach bias on this PR but since they have shown really good games recently it's forgivable.
Savior won the OSL last season. Bisu won the MSL. Bisu happened to beat Savior 3-0 in the MSL. Bisu beat Savior in a Superfight Race Wars game which meant nothing. Bisu beat Savior 2-1 in the WWI which meant nothing. Other than that Savior has looked as impressive or more so than Bisu. How long can you keep Bisu over Savior just for the fucking MSL win? Savior won the OSL and came in second in the MSL within the same week. Everyone knows I'm a huge Savior fan but it doesn't matter because whether I'm a fan or not Savior deserves number 1 right now. Your justification that Bisu looks like he could win both leagues is dumb as Savior looks the same way and there's really no other reason to keep Bisu at number 1. In the last 2 weeks Savior is 1-0 against 3rd ranked Stork and Bisu is 0-1 against Stork.
Please please Etter give me a real reason Bisu is ranked above Savior.
Bottom 3 are pretty hard to actually have accurately though so I don't mind those and the rest of the ranking I had exactly as you but stop giving Bisu so much credit over Savior. Remember when you ranked Anytime higher than Nada even though Nada beat him in the OSL? Stop giving Bisu so much unquestioned credit, Savior has been impressive for a lot longer than BeeSuit.
Nice to see REACH on the PR! Hope he can make it further on PR next week.
Boghat: Although BISU has some bad Proleague results and even if Superfight and WWI are unofficial events, Bisu just continue to prove that he can beat SAVIOR. I don't know which other protoss nowadays can win BO5 or BO3 game against SAVIOR.
I don't know how the results from proleague is counted in PR, but as mentioned in the PR, it is difficult.
On June 03 2007 06:39 boghat wrote: Savior won the OSL last season. Bisu won the MSL. Bisu happened to beat Savior 3-0 in the MSL. Bisu beat Savior in a Superfight Race Wars game which meant nothing. Bisu beat Savior 2-1 in the WWI which meant nothing. Other than that Savior has looked as impressive or more so than Bisu. How long can you keep Bisu over Savior just for the fucking MSL win? Savior won the OSL and came in second in the MSL within the same week. Everyone knows I'm a huge Savior fan but it doesn't matter because whether I'm a fan or not Savior deserves number 1 right now. Your justification that Bisu looks like he could win both leagues is dumb as Savior looks the same way and there's really no other reason to keep Bisu at number 1. In the last 2 weeks Savior is 1-0 against 3rd ranked Stork and Bisu is 0-1 against Stork.
I too am a huge savior fan but I also disagree that as of this moment savior should be ranked higher than bisu. Both of these guys are clearly at the top of progaming right now without a question; the only people who even come close to challenging them are stork and hwasin, neither of which deserve the top spot nod because they haven't been pounding out the results for as long and consistently like savior and bisu.
So that leaves you sitting there trying to decide who is number 1. If you go to proleague neither one of them have played well, it is actually quite disgusting how bad these two super stars have played. Both of them are playing well in individual leagues, so what exactly has proven that savior is now playing so much better to deserve the #1 ranking? Is it possible that savior is still better than bisu, sure of course I believe it is true. I believe that savior is the complete package while Bisu is closer to a one trick pony than a superstar, but the thing of it is he keeps winning. With this being said, the fact still remains that savior has been given three (?) chances to prove himself against bisu and just continues to not be able to do so.
Last but not least, this isn't a professional ranking system. Etter is in first place and has been doing this for a while; he knows what he's talking about but its still somewhat personal preference. Savior could easily take over the #1 ranking but he just has to remove his mental block and finally get over the bisu hump.
On June 03 2007 06:39 boghat wrote: 2. July hasn't played enough games really to be on the PR yet. He gets the nod simply because he is July which shouldn't happen. The other big names like Bisu, Savior, iloveoov, and Nal_rA actually have a bunch of games to back up their greatness. 3. Reach gets extra bias because he is Reach. Yes he has played good lately but I still don't think he should be on the PR yet. You say for example that FBH isn't on because he's only shown good TvTs lately but the same is true of Reach and PvT. There is a very obvious July and Reach bias on this PR but since they have shown really good games recently it's forgivable.
It's not just that they've shown good games. These are championship players. Of course I'm going to give them preference over players like Flash and Firebathero; Reach and July have actually, at some point in their careers, accomplished something, which points to their ability to do it again. You can't say that about Flash and Firebathero.
Please please Etter give me a real reason Bisu is ranked above Savior.
Because both look unstoppable, and Savior has never managed to beat Bisu. If Bisu slips up or Savior manages to beat him, I'll rethink things. At this point, though, Bisu and Savior are in good position to win both Starleagues, and if they went head to head, I'd have to call Bisu the favorite, given their history. Jathin said it best:
On June 03 2007 10:18 Jathin wrote: Bisu was rightfully #1 last month, while Savior was rightfully #2.
Both of them are unstoppable in the MSL and OSL.
Remind me again why we should flip #2 with #1 then, rather than keeping them as-is?
Savior won the OSL last season. Bisu won the MSL. Bisu happened to beat Savior 3-0 in the MSL.
Right, so Savior goes to #2, and Bisu goes to #1.
Bisu beat Savior in a Superfight Race Wars game which meant nothing. Bisu beat Savior 2-1 in the WWI which meant nothing. Other than that Savior has looked as impressive or more so than Bisu.
Let me get this right. Bisu beats Savior twice in highly-publicized, nationally-televised tournaments with rather large sums of money at stake. They haven't played again. Therefore it's just obvious that Savior should go ahead of Bisu!
How long can you keep Bisu over Savior just for the fucking MSL win? Savior won the OSL and came in second in the MSL within the same week.
hahahahhahahahahhahahahah I am amazed you can utter those two sentences right next to each other and see nothing wrong with that
Everyone knows I'm a huge Savior fan but it doesn't matter because whether I'm a fan or not Savior deserves number 1 right now. Your justification that Bisu looks like he could win both leagues is dumb as Savior looks the same way and there's really no other reason to keep Bisu at number 1.
Almost 90% done with the post and you still haven't given any reason why Savior should be above Bisu, except that Savior won OSL and was 2nd in MSL, while Bisu merely beat Savior to win his MSL - which you tell us to forget because it was too long ago.
In the last 2 weeks Savior is 1-0 against 3rd ranked Stork and Bisu is 0-1 against Stork.
Aha, finally. Okay, I'll grant you that - even though it is Proleague, and your chances at making a case for Savior being #1 would not fare well resting on Savior's proleague record. That having been said, it is the one player who has beaten Bisu but not Savior - and honestly, losing a PvP vs winning a ZvP, is that so outrageous?
But you know what really draws the line for me? Savior has never beaten Bisu. Every time they've met - MSL finals, Race Wars, WWI - Bisu has wiped the floor with Savior. Given that, you're gonna need some truly breathtaking evidence to justify ranking Savior over a player he simply can't beat.
You're obviously still drunk on the legend of the invicible Savior, dating to about pre-MSL final. That's gone now. Savior isn't Federer anymore - he's a Roddick or Hewitt. Still one of the best players in the world, but no longer the overwhelming favorite to win anywhere, anytime, against anyone.
On June 03 2007 10:18 Jathin wrote: You said Bisu lost to Stork. Yeah, well, Savior lost even worse to GoRush. Or should we now account for the fact that he's playing T? See where I'm going with this? It turns into this gray area that's very subjective and hard to come up with concrete standards to follow.
Oh cmon, yes we should account for the fact that he was playing T. I'd like to see Bisu play GoRush with an off race and not get crushed? SaviOr was just having fun, and trying to keep the game interesting to him. Above all, he didn't do it in some small ass tournament, this is the MSL. Did you see him crush the next two he played? It's almost as if he was so confident that he could beat them that he didn't care about his game with GoRush. Did you see his huge smile after losing?
On June 03 2007 10:18 Jathin wrote: You said Bisu lost to Stork. Yeah, well, Savior lost even worse to GoRush. Or should we now account for the fact that he's playing T? See where I'm going with this? It turns into this gray area that's very subjective and hard to come up with concrete standards to follow.
Oh cmon, yes we should account for the fact that he was playing T. I'd like to see Bisu play GoRush with an off race and not get crushed? SaviOr was just having fun, and trying to keep the game interesting to him. Above all, he didn't do it in some small ass tournament, this is the MSL. Did you see him crush the next two he played? It's almost as if he was so confident that he could beat them that he didn't care about his game with GoRush. Did you see his huge smile after losing?
yeah and who where the other 2players he had to beat? EXACTLY they were nobodies.
I don't think there's the slightest reason to debate about Bisu being 1st over Savior. Bisu has been constantly spanking Savior's ass for the last 2 month. If that's not a good reason to put him over maestro I don't know what can be a good reason :/
And it's not like he's sucking in other matchups, his brutal dismantling of NaDa is here to prove it. (I don't think I've ever seen NaDa being torn apart like that in TvP)
Sad thing with NaDa, but right now he sucks indeed. Like the ranking but somehow cant believe hawsin is that high BUT surprisingly i cant even argue against it.. T_T
good list i like it and Reach certainly deserves that spot, imo. So funny Reach was the macro monster back then. Just look how he raped the shit out of Sea and Bifrost with totally cool builds and not with hardcore macro. Beautiful harrass, amazing control.. just lovely =]
He still has probs with PvP and PvZ, though. But if he can overcome that .. he will probably move up to the top 5..
did i already say im fucking surprised that hawsin is in the top 5 but that i cant even give reasons why he shouldnt be in there ? 8[
On June 03 2007 13:24 GrandInquisitor wrote: ... You're obviously still drunk on the legend of the invicible Savior, dating to about pre-MSL final. That's gone now. Savior isn't Federer anymore - he's a Roddick or Hewitt. Still one of the best players in the world, but no longer the overwhelming favorite to win anywhere, anytime, against anyone.
i agree with the rest of your post (bisu #1 for now) and i think just about everyone does, but this tennis analogy is off.
if you're forced to make a tennis analogy, savior is federer still. yes he lost in the MSL final, but Federer loses in the French. just because he lost a few random events and proleague doesn't change the fact that's through in the MSL to the ro16 (up 1-0 on stork) and 2-0 and through groups in the OSL. that's all you really can ask of him, to advance in the "grand slams." even federer loses between the australian and the french.
to sum up, and etter has stated this too, savior's mediocre proleague record and some invite tournament losses does not constitute "slump" because he hasn't been eliminated from a major league (after qualifying for it) before the finals in like 2 years. how can you say a player who does that has lost status?
to complete the analogy, bisu is nadal, an up and coming young player who broke through and has a winning record vs the dominant player, savior.
it even works out when you compare it historically--savior-federer has a lot of major wins, but is chasing the record (nada has 3 OSL 3 MSL, savior has 3 MSL 1 OSL), while bisu-nadal has only 1 but looks just as strong right now. they are poised to meet in OSL or MSL finals, much like federer/nadal will meet in the French final and possibly Wimbledon final this year.
On June 03 2007 13:24 GrandInquisitor wrote: ... You're obviously still drunk on the legend of the invicible Savior, dating to about pre-MSL final. That's gone now. Savior isn't Federer anymore - he's a Roddick or Hewitt. Still one of the best players in the world, but no longer the overwhelming favorite to win anywhere, anytime, against anyone.
i agree with the rest of your post (bisu #1 for now) and i think just about everyone does, but this tennis analogy is off.
if you're forced to make a tennis analogy, savior is federer still. yes he lost in the MSL final, but Federer loses in the French. just because he lost a few random events and proleague doesn't change the fact that's through in the MSL to the ro16 (up 1-0 on stork) and 2-0 and through groups in the OSL. that's all you really can ask of him, to advance in the "grand slams." even federer loses between the australian and the french.
to sum up, and etter has stated this too, savior's mediocre proleague record and some invite tournament losses does not constitute "slump" because he hasn't been eliminated from a major league (after qualifying for it) before the finals in like 2 years. how can you say a player who does that has lost status?
to complete the analogy, bisu is nadal, an up and coming young player who broke through and has a winning record vs the dominant player, savior.
it even works out when you compare it historically--savior-federer has a lot of major wins, but is chasing the record (nada has 3 OSL 3 MSL, savior has 3 MSL 1 OSL), while bisu-nadal has only 1 but looks just as strong right now. they are poised to meet in OSL or MSL finals, much like federer/nadal will meet in the French final and possibly Wimbledon final this year.
Hmm, see, the problem is starcraft doesn't have enough games to really talk about how these players are playing
But my analogy is more about the aura of the players than the actual results. I say that no one right now is like federer, in that savior is no longer completely unbeatable except for bizarre flukes.
Look at it this way. Before the MSL, you could definitely consider him Federer. He was losing to no one. He was unstoppable. I don't think he lost a match (not game, obviously, match) all of 2007 up to that point.
Then he lost to Bisu. Right after, he loses to Hery[HyO], Nal_rA, Boxer, YarnC. He's been 8-4 (not counting SuperFight or WWI) since - outstanding, for sure, but nothing that makes me say, "This is Federer. It would take an act of God to bring him down." He's fallen from "out-of-this-world-insane-good" to "one of the best players in the game".
He's like the difference between Lleyton Hewitt and Roger Federer. When Hewitt was top of his game, he won Wimbledon, US Open, was number one for a whole year. Indisputably the greatest player in the world. But is he ever going to be remembered like Federer? No, and it's because he was never truly considered the invincible overwhelming favorite in every single match he played. He was just the best. He never transcended the sport.
Federer loses matches, sure, that aren't at Grand Slams. But those are extraordinarily rare. Against all players not named Nadal, his record is something like 300-10. Even in his heyday calling savior a Federer was a stretch. It definitely is now.
I smell a future blog post for me buried in this post.
i was saying "if you had to make a tennis analogy..."
imo his losses between major leagues in proleague is similar to federer's losses between wimbleton and the french, to "nobodies" as well. would you say federer's aura is diminished because of those losses?
until he loses in a major he's still got the aura
im saying if you had to make a tennis analogy the closest one is federer=savior nadal=bisu
this is assuming that savior WAS comparable to federer before, an assumption you made in your original post to boghat... so by saying "even calling savior federer in his heyday is a stretch" you're basically arguing with yourself, because you're the one that made the analogy in the first place and i was simply operating in your own assumption. i agree that federer on the top of his game is impossible for any brood war player to emulate, but again, you're the one that started the tennis analogies.
i don't see how a few proleague losses should change how we view him, yes he can be beaten but until he is eliminated in a major league i still see him as the dominant player (along with bisu).
working within the starcraft universe, right now savior is the closest thing to federer we have, and his aura/legacy/way we view him shouldn't be changed by the interim time between OSLs/MSLs just like Federer's shouldn't be changed by a few losses in tune-ups for the French.
GrandInquisitor - My point was that Savior made two finals and won the more prestigious one whereas Bisu only made one final. Just the fact that Savior made two finals over Bisu's one is the impressive thing.
The only reason Bisu is over Savior is because he keeps beating Savior so I guess this is a good enough reason. I was simply wondering how long Bisu's 3-0 win over Savior in the MSL is going to keep him above Savior. Because other than that Savior has looked slightly more impressive. He has a better Proleague record and he also has been beating top players like Stork and iloveoov in easy fashion. He also didn't lose to fucking Oversky like Bisu did in the MSL. He lost to Gorush but I thought he played pretty good and that Gorush just played unbelieveable. But it is true that it's going to be hard to say if a game by Savior should be overlooked just because he is playing terran. But Gorush is a lot better than Oversky anyway.
GrandInquisitor, I know we've had an argument or two in the past but you don't have to be so condescending in your comments to me. You just didn't get that I was saying that even though Bisu beat Savior in the MSL Savior came in first in the OSL and 2nd in the MSL while Bisu wasn't even in the OSL. That was my argument. Just because you didn't seem to get that doesn't mean it's bad and if you did get that I don't see how it's such a bad argument.
I think the WWI should pretty much not even be taken into consideration but I guess the fact that Bisu was able to beat Savior 2-1 in that is enough to keep Bisu 1st for this month. And I guess I probably would have used WWI as an argument for Savior had Savior won so I will concede to saying Bisu deserves first but only because he managed to beat Savior in WWI. That's really the only reason.
On June 03 2007 12:53 DJEtterStyle wrote: It's not just that they've shown good games. These are championship players. Of course I'm going to give them preference over players like Flash and Firebathero; Reach and July have actually, at some point in their careers, accomplished something, which points to their ability to do it again. You can't say that about Flash and Firebathero.
Okay, I like your reasoning. If the bottom three spots are ambiguous like they usually are then why not give championship players the preference? Being a big name player also gives you more of an aura of power which is one of the things we are ranking here I think. So yeah I guess I don't have a problem giving a slight edge to people like July and Reach.
On June 03 2007 12:53 DJEtterStyle wrote: Because both look unstoppable, and Savior has never managed to beat Bisu. If Bisu slips up or Savior manages to beat him, I'll rethink things. At this point, though, Bisu and Savior are in good position to win both Starleagues, and if they went head to head, I'd have to call Bisu the favorite, given their history. Jathin said it best:
On June 03 2007 10:18 Jathin wrote: Bisu was rightfully #1 last month, while Savior was rightfully #2.
Both of them are unstoppable in the MSL and OSL.
Remind me again why we should flip #2 with #1 then, rather than keeping them as-is?
Okay I concede that Bisu stays at #1 this month. But Savior makes me feel so drunk inside with his stylish clothing and slick defiler usage that I couldn't just let him stay at #2 without a fight.
Okay I concede that Bisu stays at #1 this month. But Savior makes me feel so drunk inside with his stylish clothing and slick defiler usage that I couldn't just let him stay at #2 without a fight.
On June 03 2007 19:47 boghat wrote: GrandInquisitor - My point was that Savior made two finals and won the more prestigious one whereas Bisu only made one final. Just the fact that Savior made two finals over Bisu's one is the impressive thing.
The only reason Bisu is over Savior is because he keeps beating Savior so I guess this is a good enough reason. I was simply wondering how long Bisu's 3-0 win over Savior in the MSL is going to keep him above Savior. Because other than that Savior has looked slightly more impressive. He has a better Proleague record and he also has been beating top players like Stork and iloveoov in easy fashion. He also didn't lose to fucking Oversky like Bisu did in the MSL. He lost to Gorush but I thought he played pretty good and that Gorush just played unbelieveable. But it is true that it's going to be hard to say if a game by Savior should be overlooked just because he is playing terran. But Gorush is a lot better than Oversky anyway.
GrandInquisitor, I know we've had an argument or two in the past but you don't have to be so condescending in your comments to me. You just didn't get that I was saying that even though Bisu beat Savior in the MSL Savior came in first in the OSL and 2nd in the MSL while Bisu wasn't even in the OSL. That was my argument. Just because you didn't seem to get that doesn't mean it's bad and if you did get that I don't see how it's such a bad argument.
I think the WWI should pretty much not even be taken into consideration but I guess the fact that Bisu was able to beat Savior 2-1 in that is enough to keep Bisu 1st for this month. And I guess I probably would have used WWI as an argument for Savior had Savior won so I will concede to saying Bisu deserves first but only because he managed to beat Savior in WWI. That's really the only reason.
The only reason I was condescending was the fact that you're trying to simulataneously defend the fact that OSL/MSL still matters - which it does - and then defend that it doesn't matter that Savior lost to Bisu. Bisu didn't qualify for OSL - true. Is that what we're judging him now on, though? Isn't that a little too far back?
On June 03 2007 18:00 Hot_Bid wrote: i wasnt saying that its an exact analogy
i was saying "if you had to make a tennis analogy..."
imo his losses between major leagues in proleague is similar to federer's losses between wimbleton and the french, to "nobodies" as well. would you say federer's aura is diminished because of those losses?
until he loses in a major he's still got the aura
im saying if you had to make a tennis analogy the closest one is federer=savior nadal=bisu
this is assuming that savior WAS comparable to federer before, an assumption you made in your original post to boghat... so by saying "even calling savior federer in his heyday is a stretch" you're basically arguing with yourself, because you're the one that made the analogy in the first place and i was simply operating in your own assumption. i agree that federer on the top of his game is impossible for any brood war player to emulate, but again, you're the one that started the tennis analogies.
i don't see how a few proleague losses should change how we view him, yes he can be beaten but until he is eliminated in a major league i still see him as the dominant player (along with bisu).
working within the starcraft universe, right now savior is the closest thing to federer we have, and his aura/legacy/way we view him shouldn't be changed by the interim time between OSLs/MSLs just like Federer's shouldn't be changed by a few losses in tune-ups for the French.
agreed
But I think Savior could start drawing comparisons pre-MSL; and he can't now. His losses between Aus Open and French Open this year were absolute shockers, holy-shit-what-the-fuck-is-going-on. No one reacted like that to sAviOr losing to rA or Boxer - that was just wow-major-upset.
On June 03 2007 20:56 mikeymoo wrote: Game set and MATCH. =P
Thanks for fighting, boghat.
boghat showed a lot of class in this thread. Seriously, guys, if you have a favorite player that you think I'm being unfair to, just explain your reasoning so that we can consider, together, whether or not he belongs in a higher slot--or on the list altogether! It's posts like boghat's that generate quality discussion, because being forced to defend your reasoning inevitably causes personal reflection, which is never a bad thing.
On June 03 2007 19:47 boghat wrote: GrandInquisitor - My point was that Savior made two finals and won the more prestigious one whereas Bisu only made one final. Just the fact that Savior made two finals over Bisu's one is the impressive thing.
The only reason Bisu is over Savior is because he keeps beating Savior so I guess this is a good enough reason. I was simply wondering how long Bisu's 3-0 win over Savior in the MSL is going to keep him above Savior. Because other than that Savior has looked slightly more impressive. He has a better Proleague record and he also has been beating top players like Stork and iloveoov in easy fashion. He also didn't lose to fucking Oversky like Bisu did in the MSL. He lost to Gorush but I thought he played pretty good and that Gorush just played unbelieveable. But it is true that it's going to be hard to say if a game by Savior should be overlooked just because he is playing terran. But Gorush is a lot better than Oversky anyway.
GrandInquisitor, I know we've had an argument or two in the past but you don't have to be so condescending in your comments to me. You just didn't get that I was saying that even though Bisu beat Savior in the MSL Savior came in first in the OSL and 2nd in the MSL while Bisu wasn't even in the OSL. That was my argument. Just because you didn't seem to get that doesn't mean it's bad and if you did get that I don't see how it's such a bad argument.
I think the WWI should pretty much not even be taken into consideration but I guess the fact that Bisu was able to beat Savior 2-1 in that is enough to keep Bisu 1st for this month. And I guess I probably would have used WWI as an argument for Savior had Savior won so I will concede to saying Bisu deserves first but only because he managed to beat Savior in WWI. That's really the only reason.
The only reason I was condescending was the fact that you're trying to simulataneously defend the fact that OSL/MSL still matters - which it does - and then defend that it doesn't matter that Savior lost to Bisu. Bisu didn't qualify for OSL - true. Is that what we're judging him now on, though? Isn't that a little too far back?
I didn't mean to sound like I was saying Savior's loss to Bisu didn't matter. I was trying to say that it's arguable which is more impressive: Savior coming 1st in the OSL and 2nd in the MSL or Bisu getting first in the MSL by way of beating Savior 3-0 but not even qualifying for the OSL. I agree that all this is too far back now to matter on the Power Rank so I was wondering what was keeping Bisu at first because his 3-0 of Savior was awhile back and so was the Race Wars game.
But I guess beating Savior again in the WWI 2-1 is enough to keep Bisu first despite his slightly worse Proleague record and the other little things I have pointed out like losing to Oversky and Stork. Hopefully Savior's games against Stork in the MSL will help prepare him for when he inevitably faces Bisu again in the MSL and/or OSL where the games really matter.
Savior hadn't outright impressed me until I saw his latest victory against Stork. He was playing better than when he was slumping, but not anywhere near untouchable. Bisu tends to impress me on a fairly regular basis (except when he's playing a Proleague game XD). He seems to have ungodly instincts, and even when he seems to be down he often pulls it off anyhow. The player that shows up at Proleague seems to be somewhat more lost. Kind of reminds me back before they won Proleagues .
Also, Bisu dismantling NaDa isn't particularly impressive given NaDa has been playing like crap for quite some time. Unless the person referring to this meant before then.
On June 03 2007 13:24 GrandInquisitor wrote: Aha, finally. Okay, I'll grant you that - even though it is Proleague, and your chances at making a case for Savior being #1 would not fare well resting on Savior's proleague record. That having been said, it is the one player who has beaten Bisu but not Savior - and honestly, losing a PvP vs winning a ZvP, is that so outrageous?
Bisu lost in PvT to the Midas, Chrh and Boxer. And add Much for PvP. More than one player, yeah? And take in account that PvP is much more skill based than ZvZ, and losing in PvP is big deal.
On June 03 2007 13:24 GrandInquisitor wrote: But you know what really draws the line for me? Savior has never beaten Bisu. Every time they've met - MSL finals, Race Wars, WWI - Bisu has wiped the floor with Savior. Given that, you're gonna need some truly breathtaking evidence to justify ranking Savior over a player he simply can't beat.
Let's remember how Bisu was placed #1 over sAviOr:
On March 03 2007 DJEtterStyle wrote: I know the 0-3 loss to Bisu looks bad - and it was - but if anyone can overcome the OGN Curse, it's Savior. Given all that he's achieved in recent memory, I'd be doing him and the PR an incredible disservice if I put him at anywhere but #1.
On April 02 2007 DJEtterStyle wrote: Well, it happened: someone knocked Savior from his perch. I'm just not happy to do it under these circumstances. Bisu's MSL victory came after the post-OSL slump of Savior, and the Superfight is a nothing tournament. So the piece of evidence that ultimately swayed my opinion was Bisu tearing through the OSL preliminaries.
Even DJEtterStyle himself didn't place Bisu over sAviOr cause of Bisu's perfomance against sAviOr alone.
Next thing
On June 03 2007 12:53 DJEtterStyle wrote: Because both look unstoppable, and Savior has never managed to beat Bisu. If Bisu slips up or Savior manages to beat him, I'll rethink things. At this point, though, Bisu and Savior are in good position to win both Starleagues, and if they went head to head, I'd have to call Bisu the favorite, given their history.
The problem is Bisu hasn't same chances as sAviOr. Bisu's PvT is very inconsistent. As his PvP. How many good TvP terrans we have in the Osl now? Add StOrk to them. And they all can stop Bisu. Who can stop sAviOr? Only Bisu.
What about Msl sAviOr and Bisu won't face each other before final. On the Bisu's road could be: Hwasin/Sheis, JulyZerg/GoRush/Sea[Shield]. And he still should proof how good is his PvZ. Before final sAviOr should defeat StOrk, oov, 910 and OverSky. In Msl sAviOr has much more chances too.
To be honest, StOrk for me looking much more promising than Bisu
On June 04 2007 12:31 estebannam wrote: shouldnt julyzerg be higher? cuz he showed so many pimps play on his last games and his lump is gone so he will be amazing
On June 04 2007 12:31 estebannam wrote: shouldnt julyzerg be higher? cuz he showed so many pimps play on his last games and his lump is gone so he will be amazing
I don't like to make fun of non-native English speakers--especially when it's clear what they mean--but man, this one is such a gem that it's tempting. I can't help but see visions of pimps prancing through meadows and JulyZerg having a malignant tumor removed...
i am already very good at pvp so no thanks. only mu i suck at is pvt because i have no patience. PvP is just knowing what beats what and macroing. takes no skill as I said.
On June 04 2007 12:31 estebannam wrote: shouldnt julyzerg be higher? cuz he showed so many pimps play on his last games and his lump is gone so he will be amazing
Shit i must of missed so much, what did NaDa do or not do to suck now? He was on fire a month ago, but i haven't been paying as much attention to pro's lately, i have had other things on my mind. I will read entire thread but wtf did he do if my answer isn't there?
On June 05 2007 19:26 MoNKeYSpanKeR wrote: Shit i must of missed so much, what did NaDa do or not do to suck now? He was on fire a month ago, but i haven't been paying as much attention to pro's lately, i have had other things on my mind. I will read entire thread but wtf did he do if my answer isn't there?
Nada is 0-4 in the Starleagues. He has one chance to save face by beating DarkElf in the OSL, but he's eliminated from both Starleagues no matter what. His Proleague record is average.
But beyond that, his play has looked sloppy. He's not PR material at this point.
oo some guy told me nada found himself a girlfriend and was not really concentrated at starcraft, but if his performance goes on like this his girlfriend will ditch him... Which will ultimately result 2 loses for nada, his title, and his GF..
thx dj, where can we find the brackets for Ro16? Is it possible we will see both finals as Bo5's between Bisu and savior? Also i agree with your entire list basically. I hope i get to see LighT and Gorush in it next month, let's pray they do something.
On June 05 2007 23:40 MoNKeYSpanKeR wrote: thx dj, where can we find the brackets for Ro16? Is it possible we will see both finals as Bo5's between Bisu and savior?
Like I said before - in the msl - if one of them won't be eliminated before - they will meet in final. I don't know though how ongamenet arrange their bracket o.o
That's total garbage. First of all his 1st Proleague game today was 2 Rax proxy cheese TvT, you cannot even count that. In his 2nd game he played ok, not overly good, not overly bad, just ok. I have no idea how the hell these games make you think he wanted to focus on Proleague more, they are no indication whatsoever. Also, I cannot imagine that ANYONE would intentionally drop out of Starleagues, are you out of your mind? Not to mention if you take OSL half of the maps are already used in Proleague (Monty Hall, Python), Hitchhiker is map that was previously used, which leaves us with an astonishing count of one new map. And MSL has two new maps. And why would he be pretty much warranted a spot next time even if he wins a few more Proleague games? Etter clearly stated that OSL > MSL > PL in his considerations and that a PL may help, but it certainly doesn't suffice.
On June 06 2007 08:22 Seeker wrote: True, Nada is playing crappy, but whoever takes him our of the PR rank is stupid, Nada has done way more in the past
Jesus, when will people finally realize that PR is not about what you achieved in the past, but about how you have done recently, i.e. how strong you are now or rather how powerful you are now. Got it?
Unless Nada starts ripping everyone to shreds and doesn't lose any more games in Proleague he should be off the Power Rank for awhile. He hasn't even looked that good for almost 3 months, let alone just the past one. Since the Shinhan Masters (March 17th) he's had a couple good Proleague wins and that's it.
Seeker, the Power Rank is mainly about the past month, taking into consideration the past maybe 3 months as well. The OSL and MSL always count for more than the Proleague, as they should, and Nada is out of both individual leagues. So Nada definitely doesn't deserve to be on it this month and I doubt he'll be on it for a couple months to come. Like Midas, he fucked up.
The only way that I see NaDa's individual leagues affecting his proleauge games is if he feels so guilty about performing terribly that he's thinking about picking up his performance for proleague.
He didnt really want to tell you that.. Actually how can u, even as the biggest nada lover ever write such a stupid bs like u did ? Droping out of osl intentionally.. n/C thats like the most stupid thing ive ever heard..
additionaly i want to tell some guys : this is a power ranking. Its very accurate and very very recent. So dont get confused. Everyone agrees, that NaDa is easily top 10 in an all time ranking, but its about the last few month..
There will be 10 players that keep winning in one or both of the individual leagues though, and some of those will be winning in Proleague as well at the same time.
Yeah, my wording was probably a bit too harsh, my apologies for that. It's just that that I find the thought of a player intentionally dropping out OSL so unbelievable, that it well... almost angered me someone would say a thing like that, hence my reaction.
On June 06 2007 10:09 Wasabi wrote: Want to buy reading comprehension? I said he might have intentionally dropped out. MIGHT HAVE. Why? He wanted to focus on Proleague.
I don't really want to nitpick, but you said "probably" and not "might have". Saying "probably" sounds much more that you believe so than saying "might have" does.
If I'm not mistaken, winning an individual league would be more of a way for nada to help out the team wouldn't it? Chance of Pantech winning proleage -- slim to none? Chance of NaDa winning individual league -- usually wouldn't be slim to none if he was playing half way decent. When he wins an individual league part of his winnings go to the team don't they?
On June 04 2007 16:27 Detonate wrote: i am already very good at pvp so no thanks. only mu i suck at is pvt because i have no patience. PvP is just knowing what beats what and macroing. takes no skill as I said.
although it doesn't seem to solicit them, PR has a knack of attracting retarded posts like these
On Bisu's PvT being inconsistent... yeah, it is. In Proleague, he's lost a decent amount of matches where he just played mediocre (how many of those were on Monty Hall?). But he tends to come up big in clutch situations and when he plays his best, his PvT is pretty damn good.
I'd be equally surprised if Savior or Bisu got knocked out of MSL/OSL early, maybe slightly more surprised if Bisu did. Of course I'm a bit of a Bisu fan.
Yeah, i'm wondering about bisu's PvT, i mean i always thought he was just PvZ and average PvT and PvP > Nal_rA and i haven't seen much other evidence so all i have is that. But then when i saw the WWI brackets i was immediatly thinking it would be a sAviOr/NaDa final, but then bisu 2-0ed NaDa so maybe he isn't as bad as i originally thought. I'm also wondering about Pantech, they were suppposed to shut down, why didn't they yet i read it like 6 months ago that they were going to, would team results change them from dieing out? I would think maximum results from every possible league was what you have to aim for.
Monty Hall is P>T, so Bisu's losses there are.. less acceptable.
NaDa is playing like shit now, so those wins over him in WWI don't really matter much? Especially because he had SO many other things to practice for - saving his team singlehandedly in proleague, both individual leagues, etc.
On June 06 2007 10:06 MaGic~PhiL wrote: He didnt really want to tell you that.. Actually how can u, even as the biggest nada lover ever write such a stupid bs like u did ? Droping out of osl intentionally.. n/C thats like the most stupid thing ive ever heard..
additionaly i want to tell some guys : this is a power ranking. Its very accurate and very very recent. So dont get confused. Everyone agrees, that NaDa is easily top 10 in an all time ranking, but its about the last few month..
I know it's about recent performance, but I am not arguing about his place right now, but for the next month if he keeps up... winning Proleague and make it far.
Want to buy reading comprehension? I said he might have intentionally dropped out. MIGHT HAVE. Why? He wanted to focus on Proleague.
I dont really care if u said might have or probably or most likely. In my own opinion its always bull shit to assume someone lost intentionally, especially if its a lose in the biggest and most important tourney in his sport/game he's playing..
but whatever we wont discuss this anymore, will we ?
On June 06 2007 14:58 LastRomantic wrote: Monty Hall is P>T, so Bisu's losses there are.. less acceptable.
Monty Hall is 10-9 in PvT -.-, how can you say it's P>T? You can't have even stats with an uneven number of games and even if it was 12-7 it wouldn't mean anything...
Monty hall always looked really T>P to me consdieirng how ez it is to vulture harrass and how much gas there is, how strange. But yeah you cant say its imba because the stats are 10-9. Even if it was 12/7 like carnac susgested you still couldn't say that, simply because you need atleast 100 games to determine the balance on a map. Not that 100 is the maximum or minimum but to get a good idea you need larger numbers a larger feild to test on, like when PGT had it's MOTS those maps got a lot of exposure and some were balanced and some showed to be incredibly unbalanced. I still miss The Artist, that map was love at first site :D
On June 06 2007 14:58 LastRomantic wrote: Monty Hall is P>T, so Bisu's losses there are.. less acceptable.
Monty Hall is 10-9 in PvT -.-, how can you say it's P>T? You can't have even stats with an uneven number of games and even if it was 12-7 it wouldn't mean anything...
oh?
maybe I should read ProLeague results more often. Last I checked it was 9-5 P over T.
firebathero is always that dark horse that no1 notices. I remember last OSL Mani predicted firebathero to win but he fell short as usual. I wonder when he will finally come through
On June 07 2007 12:07 Detonate wrote: firebathero is always that dark horse that no1 notices. I remember last OSL Mani predicted firebathero to win but he fell short as usual. I wonder when he will finally come through
On June 07 2007 12:27 SpiritoftheTuna wrote: firebathero is the new goodfriend
I still don't see how he's like GoodFriend. He's barely been around for very long. Plus he's definitely not as generic and boring. Sometimes he shows a lot of creativity. He has disappointed like once or twice compared to GF's 15? Everyone has been creaming over how good Oov has been doing lately and FBH just pounded him two straight games. I wasn't aware people hated FBH either...
On June 07 2007 12:07 Detonate wrote: firebathero is always that dark horse that no1 notices. I remember last OSL Mani predicted firebathero to win but he fell short as usual. I wonder when he will finally come through
as long as savior and bisu are aroudn the answer to that question will have to be never
Bisu is one of them players that elevates his game when it really matters. At the top of his game id say his pvt is top of the fucking line. People just need to face the fact that a protoss is dominating right now.
sAviOr can rape all in any match up and has shown solid skill in all 3, slightly less in ZvZ but whatever, Bisu on the toher hand his PvZ is aboslutely AMAZING there is no denying that, his PvT has never shown anything too amazing as everyone has said, and his PvP, well all we have is the rA games to my knowledge but i think he's about the same as his PvT in that. sAviOr is overall more stable of a player i tihnk, it just so happens bisu's best match up is the best of the best and savior can't take him down, i can't wait until the face again though, i am and alwyas will bea savior fan.
On June 07 2007 12:07 Detonate wrote: firebathero is always that dark horse that no1 notices. I remember last OSL Mani predicted firebathero to win but he fell short as usual. I wonder when he will finally come through
as long as savior and bisu are aroudn the answer to that question will have to be never
On June 07 2007 12:07 Detonate wrote: firebathero is always that dark horse that no1 notices. I remember last OSL Mani predicted firebathero to win but he fell short as usual. I wonder when he will finally come through
Something about FBH... its so true he's always the dark horse! always in the background of things, even when he wins (like now vs Oov) somehow its like 'oh right' and people are fast to forget, myself included. He's just that kind of guy, he can get to semi-finals, lose 2-3 to sAviOr or whoever, and a season later ask people who were the Ro8 players of that Starleague, they'll give you 7 names and won't remember FBH :-) He is strong, plays good games, fun to watch, I'm really starting to like him! As it is right now, he deserves a PR slot. But so much will happen until next month, so we'll see.
On a sidenote, I like how Bisu is sharing this trait with Savior in that he keeps on humiliating opponents with his scout usage. Very reminiscent of the Savior-Nada infest CC to me.
Is it because they're such good players that they get away with it or actually because they use it to psychological advantage that they're such good players ?
LOL that was so classic, NaDa was like trying to micro marines then he see's an infested CC and says "GG" god that was the most ultimate thing ever. I would have to say that i don't really beleive there to be a psychological edge in this game, atleast on my level, but on a progamers level there might be, if so it only cost sAviOr 100/100 to embarass nada infront of a few thousand people and get that "Psychological" edge over him. Also it was funny as hell to watch him bury nada into the ground. I never saw Bisu use scouts but damn that's gosu :D
bisu's scouts are nothing like saviors cc infest bisu is using these scouts in serious situations, savior just built a queen because he was so far ahead and was in a completely unloseable situation that he thought 'what the hell, lets make a queen and infest nada's cc'
On June 08 2007 21:42 Jathin wrote: Uh? Bisu built scouts because he was so far ahead. He almost blew it because he devoted so many resources to scouts that Hwasin's last push may have broken through -- but he came through with a storm.
Don't try to argue that scouts was somehow a strategic decision on Bisu's part. They're fucking expensive and there are other more efficient alternatives. The point at which Bisu starts making scouts was when he had a huge economy lead (but not unit lead).
100% correct
That's what made it so hilarious. Bisu is such a pimp.
--to that one guy saying NaDa intentionally dropped out of OSL and MSL to focus on proleague, that's 100% absolutely ridiculous. he's 9-7 in proleague and the maps overlap. if you look at the way he's lost, it's pretty clear he's simply playing bad overall, even in proleague too. carnac's reaction to you was almost justified because what you said was probably the most fanboyish thing in this thread.
--about bisu and the scouts, there's a backstory about bisu calling hwasin his "insurance" in the OSL, pretty hilarious. so both players want to win really bad, bisu does a dt drop which hwasin anticipated and did the perfect counterbuild, but bisu was so good that hwasin still manages to not only lose but lose to scouts. nobody seems to realize how behind bisu was in the beginning but caught up with superior multitask, timing, macro, just everything. hwasin got embarrassed pretty badly.
On June 07 2007 16:22 boghat wrote: I'd be more confident with Savior vs Anyplayer than Bisu vs Anyplayer though...
Word.
Bisu's win% is not that great. ~~
his wins are very solid and convincing.
his losses are very disappointingly ugly.
One could say the same of sAviOr, I suppose - but sAviOr still wins more.
actually... they are pretty similar in win % so far this season. savior has a few more wins in proleague, bisu a few more in MSL and OSL
all time, both are between 60-65% win
that said, if both play straight up (no cheese) ie 3 hatch savior and bisu not doing some dt drop, it's pretty fucking close right now which one i would take if my life depended on it vs Anyplayer
Then again this is just ridiculous. There is indeed this mechanical effect that if you have to prepare for Proleague only, you're going to play better there. But I still can't see how Pantech would be better off with their only champion not shining. Plus, NaDa's recently-acquired badass-ness (remember the four badges ceremony ?) just doesn't seem to fit in the whole "team is all that matters" picture.
My opinion is NaDa has been playing so bad lately, he had to be distracted by something. He just doesn't want to disclose what it is, thus came up with a fancy excuse.
On June 10 2007 20:08 Hot_Bid wrote: --to that one guy saying NaDa intentionally dropped out of OSL and MSL to focus on proleague, that's 100% absolutely ridiculous. he's 9-7 in proleague and the maps overlap. if you look at the way he's lost, it's pretty clear he's simply playing bad overall, even in proleague too. carnac's reaction to you was almost justified because what you said was probably the most fanboyish thing in this thread.
Good job pulling statistics that don't matter. Why does his w/l record matter before he claimed to focus in the Proleague? He has been living up to his claim as of now, 4-0 since he said he'd like to focus in the Proleague.
your logic is really bad
you say he's losing in OSL and MSL purposely because he wants to focus on proleague
he's been losing in those since they started, so he should be focusing on proleague since the beginning right?
nevermind that all players focus on proleague and find practice for individual leagues on their own time.
if he only started focusing on proleague in his last 4 or so matches, that is not an excuse for losing in the MSL and OSL because the MSL/OSL games happened way before his past 4 matches
the level of excuses you'll come up for nada is amazing. he's just playing bad. it happens. he has ups and downs, or something is distracting him, or he's slumping, or he's burning out. let's hope it's not the last one. but thinking its because he purposely threw OSL/MSL matches is just ridiculous and very fanboyish. can you even find one other person who agrees with you?
even if your ridiculous claim of "he only started focusing on proleague his last 4 games" was true, it'd mean he focused on proleague for a total of a week (this past week).
i just checked the proleague records and nada isn't even 4-0 in his last 4 games, he's 2-2.
he lost this past week to coul[fou] really embarrassingly, just getting raped purely by the first muta harass. this happened like a few days ago.
even the most recent gorush win, nada was well behind and just got lucky that gorush didn't make sunkens. it wasn't even as if he played well, gorush just made a huge error.
i made a pretty valid point about your "focus on proleague" contention and you just randomly troll, ok fine whatever.
Let me simplify:
--if he focused on his last couple matches (2-2) then its only been a week of him NOT focusing on OSL/MSL (which happened way earlier)
--if not, and he had been focusing on proleague all along why is he barely above 50% win? with lots of losses to no-names?
i made a pretty valid point about your "focus on proleague" contention and you just randomly troll, ok fine whatever.
It's funny that you, of all people, can call others a "troll." Who makes more "lols I'm joking" posts here? I never made one. Let's count yours.
again you didn't answer my main point
which was:
--if he was only focusing on proleague the last few days, why was he sucking in OSL/MSL before then?
either he was
a) sucking in OSL/MSL because he was focusing on proleague all along (with a mediocre proleague record)
or
b) he was practicing for OSL/MSL/Proleague and only really focused on proleague the last few days (the 4-0), in which case he didn't throw his OSL/MSL games
which one is it? you can't have it both ways.
i mean this is even assuming the that it's viable for him to "throw" major starleagues, which is ridiculous by itself.
also, i don't see how stork's record has anything to do with how bad nada's been sucking lately. EVERYONE even the most hardcore nada fans have been like "what's wrong with him?"
they don't make stupid, fanboyish "oh he's not trying" excuses
and you need to look up what "troll" means because i'm clearly not a troll
I totally agree with hot_bid, you aren't just going to even think about throwing a major starleague. Its ridiculous to think so.
I don't understand how this argument is still going on, nada sucked in the individual leagues, and has had two good nights in PL.
Edit: Pantech is still not going to win the Proleague. Even if Nada goes 2-0 they still have to win another game! The best thing for NaDa to do is to continue to market himself so he can get a decent contract if he wishes to continue gaming.
If NaDa REALLY wanted to throw games away, what would he have done ? Either a) not show up to or, in the impossibility of the former, b) go sAviOr-style against Light and GG just after a failed all-in in order to show he didn't care.
Embarrassing himself against Cool[fou] was not exactly a graceful exit.
5/17 L to Chalrenge on Loki 5/17 L to iloveoov on Monty 5/18 L to Bisu on Monghwan 6/1 L to Hwasin on Monty
That's all the games he's played in MSL/OSL. Four. That's it. And two were TvTs on the same map, Monty Hall, which by the way is ALSO IN PROLEAGUE.
So basically he was practicing for the Chalrenge game on Loki and Bisu game on Monghwan, and those two games caused him to do do badly in proleague up until the last four games, which only happened in the last couple days?
(the coul[fou] proleague embarrassment happened after those games too)
he has a bit of an excuse in the OSL because Bisu and Hwasin are really really good, but again Nada was runner up last season and he should be the one dictating that group rather than others. but the MSL losses and some of the Proleague losses (again, i'm not buying the omg he had to practice for TWO more games) are unacceptable.
it's not so much the losses themselves but it's the way that he has been losing. if you watched the games and paid attention you'd know that there's something wrong with nada. it's not because he's "focusing" on proleague or whatever. he's slumping and not playing like himself.
that's why he's off the power rank and i bet it was an easy decision by Etter.
On June 11 2007 17:16 Wasabi wrote: Too bad for people who are doing great in Proleague, isn't it?
Well in a way yes but in a way no. You can't say that the proleauge isn't considered as highly imo. I know they say it isn't but if you look at positions 3 and 4 in the power rank they belong to two guys who are absolutely tearing up the proleague. And on top of that they are both knocked out of an individual league. Even if nada starts doing well now it is 10 days after the PR was released
On June 11 2007 17:16 Wasabi wrote: I don't expect people to agree with me, and I could care less. People agreeing with a general, popular opinion instead than losing MSL/OSL to focus on Proleague is nigh unbelievable, unless you see evidence. Yes, I know that I am talking too fast just because he won all his Proleague games within two days, but he somehow does, and if it continues anyway, then it may account for something.
The discussion could've ended from Carnac's post and corrected me that the Power Rank is more about doing well in individual leagues and less about Proleague. But no, Hot_bid had to say gibberish. Too bad for people who are doing great in Proleague, isn't it?
PowerRank takes into account the last month.
Nada is not doing great in Proleague. He's doing good, but his overall record is not that great. Yes he had a good two days (one of those being a win against Gorush he really shouldn't have won).
So your "too bad for people who are doing great in Proleague" doesn't apply to Nada. It applies to ForGG (7-2) or Canata (8-2) or Sea (9-3) but not to Nada (current stats have him at 9-7, maybe Carnac hasn't updated it yet).
It's way too early to say that his last two days are representative of his entire Proleague. To use those two days as an excuse for bad performances in individual leagues weeks ago is just making excuses for no reason.
edit: it's funny you use the Gorush game as an example, because if Gorush isn't an idiot and makes his sunkens as he should, Nada is way behind in that game. everyone agreed that Gorush lost that game rather than Nada won it.
the GGPlay game yes Nada played well. but he's been inconsistent. to want to put him in PR because of mediocre, inconsistent Proleague performance so far is not warranted.
On June 11 2007 17:26 Hot_Bid wrote: So your "too bad for people who are doing great in Proleague" doesn't apply to Nada. It applies to ForGG (7-2) or Canata (8-2) or Sea (9-3) but not to Nada (current stats have him at 9-7, maybe Carnac hasn't updated it yet).
Nada should be 11-7 now, I'm working on the update
On June 11 2007 17:25 Wasabi wrote: When did I say that Nada absolutely DID NOT care about individual leagues as to do any of those atrocities? You are the stubborn one here.
Never in Korean SC progaming did a player forfeit a game or not show up for any reason.
My god, stop bringing up that Cool[Fou] game, you are clearly stubborn if you didn't see a difference in his play between that, and his games against Gorush and GGPlay.
sAviOr does throw unimportant games away (Light, Gorush) and given NaDa's resume he could easily afford to as well.
And my god, stop bringing up that Gorush game, the guy can't sunk properly, and isn't even on the PR, simply cause his ZvT only shines against lesser-ranked opponents.
At last, what are we arguing about ? Are you arguing NaDa should be on the PR ? It is consensus here - not just Etter's opinion - that a player who's on neither of the major starleagues should not be. I guess it's your opinion too, so end of story.
Are we arguing that NaDa is in a slump, voluntarily or not ? Certainly not so, it is fact that he's losing to noobs. The reasons for it are properly irrelevant in a PR context, and the rest - whether he's lying or not with his "team first" antics - is just speculation. Again, as a NaDa fan, you can't deny he's not displaying his usual sAviOr/Bisu-like dominance. That's all there is to it. As someone who likes NaDa a lot, I can only hope he gets back to his true level pretty soon.
If NaDa intended to throw away the individual leagues, then why did he put in all that trash talk in the selection ceremonies? Why did we seem flustered when he lost 0-2 in his MSL group?
Honestly, MSL and OSL >>> Proleague in terms of importance. I don't see how someone as smart as NaDa would want to throw his chance in the individual leagues just to 'help' his team. It wouldn't even be really helping his team, since having your star player getting booted out of both leagues is not what anyone wants.
Also @ Wasabi: Savior does not have to play T vs all other Zergs in MSL, I see you are not very well informed.
On June 11 2007 17:25 Wasabi wrote: The list has mentioned that Gorush very, very nearly made the PR. It's not hard to imagine that he would've been there.
So what, multiple-OSL champion NaDa can still win a match against the #11 on the PR ? Wow. Amazing. Big friggin' deal.
On June 11 2007 17:54 Wasabi wrote: You dont even know what I'm exactly saying here. I am not saying Nada should've stayed this month, but for the NEXT month, and that's if he continues a good record in Proleague. Pantech still has a chance to make it in the playoffs if they win all their games AFAIK. Again, the odds are a shot in the dark, but that, to me, is a feat worth of a spot, no matter how low, in the PR. We all know NaDa alone is keeping his team alive and if there's anyone who'll be noticed there, it's him.
How is that reasoning specific to him ? NaDa isn't even on his way to be the best Proleague player yet. Any player who'd dominate ProLeague so much as to get his team to win by himself could claim to be PR-level material. Except maybe if he choked so much that he couldn't pass through the first levels of OSL and MSL. Ahem.
On June 11 2007 17:25 Wasabi wrote: This isn't what I'm arguing. It isn't speculation: READ THE INTERVIEW. READ THE INTERVIEW. READ THE INTERVIEW.
Copy/paste of part of the interview (translated by LosingID8):
What is the cause of your recent losses? >There are a few. Within in my team, including individual leagues my schedule is the busiest. Because of this, I don't have full grasp of the maps and my amount of practice is insufficient. I have to try harder.
Your team has 2 consecutive wins. >In this proleague we have barely grasped the feeling of improving conditions. Although we have won 2 in a row, our winning percentage is not good. In the future, I will become more greedy in order to raise our win rate.
Anyone who's copy-pasting three times the same three words sentence probably shouldn't be worth replying to. We're at the heart of the debate though - you're willing to accept everything NaDa said at face value, which fails to impress me as a mature and logical way of seeing things. Yes Virginia, people do sometimes have to lie ! I'm a NaDa fan AND I am indeed speculating his reply is an excuse. If you now excuse me, it's 3:00AM here - I think I'll do like NaDa said and actually quit. You, sir, are a winner.
On June 11 2007 17:25 Wasabi wrote: When did I say that Nada absolutely DID NOT care about individual leagues as to do any of those atrocities? You are the stubborn one here.
Never in Korean SC progaming did a player forfeit a game or not show up for any reason.
My god, stop bringing up that Cool[Fou] game, you are clearly stubborn if you didn't see a difference in his play between that, and his games against Gorush and GGPlay.
sAviOr does throw unimportant games away (Light, Gorush) and given NaDa's resume he could easily afford to as well.
....
SaviOr is in both leagues, and is looking in good shape to have a chance win them both. Nada? Isn't.
On June 11 2007 17:54 Wasabi wrote: No, that's not why Savior chose Terran against Gorush at all. To say that sAviOr is "throwing" away games not just against GoRush (he has to play Terran against all Zergs at this point in MSL AFAIK), but to ALL Zergs he will meet is ludicrous.
I have read several times that him playing terran was only for that one game (although he said in an interview that he wanted to try again in the future). Can any one confirm?
I still think he really wanted to win that one though, but the 9pool on Monty Hall was pretty much a throw away.
In Nada's interview that was pointed out, Nada seemed very disappointed about his starleague preformance, "After loosing in MSL, it felt like it was an enervating loss." There is no way he "probably intentionally dropped out of individual leagues to focus on Proleague."
Why would he then think that he lost the trust of his staff if that was his intention?
Also, the interview with Nada was BEFORE his games in OSL so the whole argument with him probably intentionally dropping out of individual leagueS is faulty in the first place as Nada has not yet played in the OSL.
The guy just preformed poorly, was disappointed after and promised to focus more on Proleague to make up for his recent preformance and because his schedule was now not as full after his MSL faliure.
On June 11 2007 20:43 TheTyranid wrote: ... The guy just preformed poorly, was disappointed after and promised to focus more on Proleague to make up for his recent preformance and because his schedule was now not as full after his MSL faliure.
this is the best and is the right explanation for that interview and what's going on with nada.
this PR thread basically turned into a gang-up on wasabi for his admittedly fanboyish views on nada's losses, and it really doesn't seem like he's going to change his opinion.
being bounced out of both OSL and MSL basically ensures nada not being on the list next month either, unless something miraculous happens and Pantech wins Proleague or something, with nada going 2-0 every playday. i just don't see that happening. even if it did he probably wouldn't be near the top of the PR anyway.
On June 03 2007 05:54 Mynock wrote: I don't think you see the implications of NaDa's slump... It could mean his mother or brother or someone else close died again. But judging by his current play, it looks more like his whole family has been massacred in cold blood in front of his very eyes or something...
-Mynock
Wow... that's just ****** up... But I'll be damned if it didn't make me laugh. =D
4 Protoss to be top there... has this ever happened? Toss were the BEYOND underdogs. Terrans only ever reigned, and then Zergs started to get power with JulyZerg, then Savior. This new Protoss dominance, along with Reach coming back up there, and old veterans like rA still sticking up there can only mean one thing...
Garimotoss has secretly been training them all and will soon conquer all the progamers.
HAHAHAHA @ wasabi. Quoting LosingID8 for a valid source? He is not a valid source. Sure he could have tried to translate during the interview, but I severely doubt he could get the full intricate details of all the is said during that short time period. I know that kid and yeah... please validate your argument with a different source when it comes to interviews. You cant just take someone's word for granted when translating, especially a guy who was born here in America, lived in a fucking town with almost no Koreans for all his education years. Nada is slumping, and no matter how well he does in proleague this season, it will not justify him being ranked anywhere on the top 10 list as long as there are players who are doing well in BOTH the individual tourneys and proleague. Anyways, when has Nada ever been a team player? last time i checked he was always focused on individual tourneys and such, and I dont ever remember him carrying his team in proleague to the finals anytime recently. Seriously, you are one of the most biased people I have seen on this forum, and it reminds me of all those idiots in the first power ranking that came out where people were demanding that people like xellos be placed in the top 10 ranking -_-;
Wasabi your trying to defend nada's losses in the worst manner i have ever seen, and your tr ying to say if he does well in proleague he deserves a spot in PL? I don't think so, i think xellos for losing ro16 to 815 deserves a spot more then him. He's 11/7 right now? alright he's winning like 66% of his games which is decent, but there are other players who would be more worhty for advancing to Even ro8 rather then nada making excuses for getting man handled on both starleagues. Unless nada goes undefeated and plays in all matches his 1on1's and the 2on2 and then the ace and goes 3-0 he isn't carrying his team at all for rest of the season, if he actually manages to do that then by all means let's give him the #10 maybe #9 spot. Actually either way i dislike nada so if it were up to me i would give him a close but no cigar. Or maybe i would just say "nada you still suck" in the classy way that only dj can do. But in all seriousness at this rate unless he actually does go 3-0 undefeated every proleague match i don't see why he can be considered PR material when there are other players in more prominent leagues.
O come on, who gives a shit about Nada... GoRush is gonna be playing July!! OMG Which Zerg will be the only Zerg to stand aside Savior and fight off the legions of Protoss and terran? ZOMGGG
Nada's one of 50 billion fuckn Terrans anyways, and he's lame.
Nada and GoRush probably won't win another starleague but July has a shot at this OSL if he can beat Bisu and Savior in bo5 since his ZvP and ZvZ are at Savior's level.
On June 12 2007 15:29 kyungrim wrote: HAHAHAHA @ wasabi. Quoting LosingID8 for a valid source? He is not a valid source. Sure he could have tried to translate during the interview, but I severely doubt he could get the full intricate details of all the is said during that short time period. I know that kid and yeah... please validate your argument with a different source when it comes to interviews. You cant just take someone's word for granted when translating, especially a guy who was born here in America, lived in a fucking town with almost no Koreans for all his education years.
thx kyung, but my korean has improved a ton, probably more than you realize. i'm majoring in korean lol
btw, i translated the transcript of the interview, not video footage.
on the other hand.. pure objectivity.. NaDa is the most successful player right now. He may have played bad in the last games he played.. but saying he sucks, because he finally didnt do well in a big tournaments or two.. wtf !?
On the one hand you love the gamer who didnt do anything good for almost 3 years or what so ever.. but u say the most successful player of all times sucks..
some people here annoy me..
Boxer also sucked in his games when he wasnt the best anymore.. 1 out of 100 said boxer sucks 10 out of 100 said boxer sucked in that game.. 89 simply said.. np boxer still owns the shit..
but some people are just blind..
NaDa is one of the best ever and he is still there.. around the top.. losing his last important games.. so what..
my godness..
if savior or bisu dont at least stay around the top for 2 or 3 years they arent even close to nadas or e.g. oovs or boxers performances.. so plz stfu =]
On June 13 2007 04:25 Carnac wrote: lol @ nada losing to fucking yellow and chojja
nada youre horrible
no, he obviously lost those proleague games intentionally
he was putting all his focus on his starchallenge group and MSL survivor, both of which he's undefeated this month so far, no losses
i think this warrants him to be #1 on teh powerranks
Dude. It's the #1 most successful player in the history of BW you're talking about, and you're making it sound as if he (or in fact any pro player) gives a shit about a PowerRank? Ahahahaha. You and Etter's way of addressing players frontally and "throwing them a bone - LOL" amuses me to no end.
Keep the comedy up, people
Sure, it angers the Koreans who are not used to insulting their players out of love for the game and respect for fans of other pros, but lol, who cares about those slanted-eyed fucks anyway, eh Hot_Bid? Ain't I right, eh Etter old chap?
July, I just so wanted to tell you, and I know you're reading this - you suck cock like you do sausages , you fat fuck. I hope you do horrible in every league from now on, and I actually know you will, cause you can't distinguish your hatcheries from your ass-cheeks, you fat-drowned kimchi-hamburger.
On June 13 2007 07:34 Mynock wrote: Dude. It's the #1 most successful player in the history of BW you're talking about, and you're making it sound as if he (or in fact any pro player) gives a shit about a PowerRank? Ahahahaha. You and Etter's way of addressing players frontally and "throwing them a bone - LOL" amuses me to no end.
They don't make it sound like that at all. I'm not sure why you would interpret it that way.... Addressing players in the first person is supposed to be amusing obviously but I doubt Etter is actually "talking" to the players like they would care about our Power Rank.
You know what, I read this MANTOSS garbage left and right, and while it's pretty obvious it's fanboyism speaking, I'd NEVER call Reach a n00b, or say he sucks, even in the deepest of his slumps. Because he's great. Regardless of what he plays like now, he's GREAT. He's a prominent figure of BW. I'm not a fan of his, never was or will be. But it's obvious, and I'd be a fucking idiot if I couldn't acknowledge that much.
I remember the times people looked for something good to say about a player. Nowadays everybody just assumes everything for granted. There's 0 respect to people who shaped this game. People who make YOU play it nowadays, and provide YOU entertainment. People without whom the game would be dead by now.
I do respect Nada and I like him, I was just trying to piss you off since you had to be mean and call July a fat fuck. You have to admit Nada has been doing pretty bad this season of leagues though.
On June 13 2007 08:38 boghat wrote: I do respect Nada and I like him, I was just trying to piss you off since you had to be mean and call July a fat fuck. You have to admit Nada has been doing pretty bad this season of leagues though.
Dude, July is great He really is. If it wasn't for the opposition, where would the great games come from?
Yeah NaDa is showing crazy stuff right now, winning against Midas and GoRush (earlier) and going 2-0, then GGplay and going 2-0, then losing to YellOw (happy that Yell0w finally won something tho) and ChoJJa 0-2?
Not sure what's going on, but even if I wasn't a fan I'd feel ridiculously shallow proclaiming he sucks based off of something like that. He's absolutely acting weird nowadays, that I can say.
This argument is getting ridiculous. Some people made the fair assessment that Nada, great as he may be, is in slump at the moment and should not be on the PR. So Wasabi and Mynock get way too over-defensive and make ridiculous excuses for it. Come on, Nada's an ambitious guy, sure he wants to help his team but there's no way he's not going to try his best to win games in the other leagues. You're losing your grip on reality if you can't see that the guy is in (at least)a semi-slump. That doesn't mean he's not a great player still but to deny it is just fanboyism at its dumbest. It must hurt a lot to see him sucking so bad at the moment, but be patient I'm sure he'll come back at some point so Savior can whup his ass again.
On June 13 2007 09:03 tomatriedes wrote: This argument is getting ridiculous. Some people made the fair assessment that Nada, great as he may be, is in slump at the moment and should not be on the PR. So Wasabi and Mynock get way too over-defensive and make ridiculous excuses for it. Come on, Nada's an ambitious guy, sure he wants to help his team but there's no way he's not going to try his best to win games in the other leagues. You're losing your grip on reality if you can't see that the guy is in (at least)a semi-slump. That doesn't mean he's not a great player still but to deny it is just fanboyism at its dumbest. It must hurt a lot to see him sucking so bad at the moment, but be patient I'm sure he'll come back at some point so Savior can whup his ass again.
If you'd be so kind as to point me to the part where I suggest NaDa is top10 ATM, or made any excuses for him, that would be sweet
Don't get me bunched up with Wasabi please, I said I'd like to see some respect towards ALL and EACH ONE of the pro players.
Yes, even MannerRush, where do you think all the other players are getting their positive results from?
On June 13 2007 04:25 Carnac wrote: lol @ nada losing to fucking yellow and chojja
nada youre horrible
no, he obviously lost those proleague games intentionally
he was putting all his focus on his starchallenge group and MSL survivor, both of which he's undefeated this month so far, no losses
i think this warrants him to be #1 on teh powerranks
Dude. It's the #1 most successful player in the history of BW you're talking about, and you're making it sound as if he (or in fact any pro player) gives a shit about a PowerRank? Ahahahaha. You and Etter's way of addressing players frontally and "throwing them a bone - LOL" amuses me to no end.
Keep the comedy up, people
Sure, it angers the Koreans who are not used to insulting their players out of love for the game and respect for fans of other pros, but lol, who cares about those slanted-eyed fucks anyway, eh Hot_Bid? Ain't I right, eh Etter old chap?
July, I just so wanted to tell you, and I know you're reading this - you suck cock like you do sausages , you fat fuck. I hope you do horrible in every league from now on, and I actually know you will, cause you can't distinguish your hatcheries from your ass-cheeks, you fat-drowned kimchi-hamburger.
Damn, I'm good...
-Mynock
you obviously didn't get my joke, i was just making a parody on Wasabi's post earlier. but okay i'm going to respond to your idiotic post anyway.
1. nobody said pro players care about power rank. it's a side feature on a random community powered starcraft news site. i don't know where you got the belief that anyone, etter included, thinks the power rank matters to anyone other than the people that post in the thread.
2. etter's style is just etter's style. i see you have a problem with the way he "insults" players, but again nobody had said anything racist about korean players or korean fans at all. who are all these koreans you are saying are insulted? i don't see any. and YOU'RE the one making jokes about "slanty-eyed fucks" while even in parody is an affront to not only koreans but to me as well, as it's a derogatory slur to every asian person. i am chinese. so please shut the fuck up about that ok?
3. everything you said about july is fine in a fan perspective. fans have said much worse to teams they hate in every sport. try to be a little less sensitive about players and fans "honor" being insulted and be a little MORE sensitive when you throw around "slanty-eyed fucks" when nobody, not in any threads in any power rank made any racist connotations. i have never and will never make a racist comment about any player, korean or not.
Mynock do us all a favor and shut the fuck up, I don't fucking care if you used "who cares about those slanty-eyed fucks, eh Hot_Bid?" in jest. It's not funny. I don't care what you meant by it, the implication is there. I'm Asian and quite proud of my heritage. That comment you used to mock me is not only condescending to me and every Korean its insulting to just about every political and social belief I hold.
I'm 100% serious when I say a big "FUCK YOU" to you ok?
Sorry but im a big NaDa fan ( and Reach and Bisu and Savior ). But im just as objective as you can be. Right now NaDa plays not good, at all.
Does he ''suck'' right now ? Yes you could say so..
Is it correct to say '' NaDa sucks '' !? I dont think so, because every gamer no matter how good he was is or will ever be played bad games at times.
And actually its not the so called ''fanboys'' who are blind this time but a few others. I agree NaDa doesnt play as good as he used to or as good as he could and already did. I agree, that he has no chance to be on a power ranking..i agree there are better terrans around right now. You call this fanboyism ? I call comments as stated above stupidity and its funny that these guys call some of us fanboys..
Even though i like certain players.. i would never be blind and keep on giving them credit if they dont deserve ..
On June 13 2007 08:32 Mynock wrote: I remember the times people looked for something good to say about a player. Nowadays everybody just assumes everything for granted. There's 0 respect to people who shaped this game. People who make YOU play it nowadays, and provide YOU entertainment. People without whom the game would be dead by now.
On June 13 2007 04:25 Carnac wrote: lol @ nada losing to fucking yellow and chojja
nada youre horrible
no, he obviously lost those proleague games intentionally
he was putting all his focus on his starchallenge group and MSL survivor, both of which he's undefeated this month so far, no losses
i think this warrants him to be #1 on teh powerranks
Dude. It's the #1 most successful player in the history of BW you're talking about, and you're making it sound as if he (or in fact any pro player) gives a shit about a PowerRank? Ahahahaha. You and Etter's way of addressing players frontally and "throwing them a bone - LOL" amuses me to no end.
Keep the comedy up, people
Sure, it angers the Koreans who are not used to insulting their players out of love for the game and respect for fans of other pros, but lol, who cares about those slanted-eyed fucks anyway, eh Hot_Bid? Ain't I right, eh Etter old chap?
July, I just so wanted to tell you, and I know you're reading this - you suck cock like you do sausages , you fat fuck. I hope you do horrible in every league from now on, and I actually know you will, cause you can't distinguish your hatcheries from your ass-cheeks, you fat-drowned kimchi-hamburger.
Damn, I'm good...
-Mynock
you obviously didn't get my joke, i was just making a parody on Wasabi's post earlier. but okay i'm going to respond to your idiotic post anyway.
1. nobody said pro players care about power rank. it's a side feature on a random community powered starcraft news site. i don't know where you got the belief that anyone, etter included, thinks the power rank matters to anyone other than the people that post in the thread.
2. etter's style is just etter's style. i see you have a problem with the way he "insults" players, but again nobody had said anything racist about korean players or korean fans at all. who are all these koreans you are saying are insulted? i don't see any. and YOU'RE the one making jokes about "slanty-eyed fucks" while even in parody is an affront to not only koreans but to me as well, as it's a derogatory slur to every asian person. i am chinese. so please shut the fuck up about that ok?
3. everything you said about july is fine in a fan perspective. fans have said much worse to teams they hate in every sport. try to be a little less sensitive about players and fans "honor" being insulted and be a little MORE sensitive when you throw around "slanty-eyed fucks" when nobody, not in any threads in any power rank made any racist connotations. i have never and will never make a racist comment about any player, korean or not.
Mynock do us all a favor and shut the fuck up, I don't fucking care if you used "who cares about those slanty-eyed fucks, eh Hot_Bid?" in jest. It's not funny. I don't care what you meant by it, the implication is there. I'm Asian and quite proud of my heritage. That comment you used to mock me is not only condescending to me and every Korean its insulting to just about every political and social belief I hold.
I'm 100% serious when I say a big "FUCK YOU" to you ok?
Well, I can now only hope that you think about it a little, and maybe you'll come to the same conclusion that I came to I'd like to apologize for what I wrote, as it was of course horrible, but I hope you'll understand just what I was trying to say that way. In no contest should I have been allowed to write something like that either.
I will gladly take all the flak you direct towards me, as it might just be a little beam of light at the end of the dark cave. And you can't even for a second assume I was ever being serious in what I said. I study Japanese as a major ffs. Look at my avatar.
Now calm down, and replace Asian with "Terran player" or "favourite player" and think about it. And no, nothing I said about July is OK If I said it as a news-writer, on the FRONT PAGE. NO, NO, NO, NEVER. You are forgetting your position, Hot_Bid, you quite often do.
You say:
That comment you used to mock me is not only condescending to me and every Korean its insulting to just about every political and social belief I hold.
On June 13 2007 08:32 Mynock wrote: I remember the times people looked for something good to say about a player. Nowadays everybody just assumes everything for granted. There's 0 respect to people who shaped this game. People who make YOU play it nowadays, and provide YOU entertainment. People without whom the game would be dead by now.
On June 13 2007 04:25 Carnac wrote: lol @ nada losing to fucking yellow and chojja
nada youre horrible
no, he obviously lost those proleague games intentionally
he was putting all his focus on his starchallenge group and MSL survivor, both of which he's undefeated this month so far, no losses
i think this warrants him to be #1 on teh powerranks
Dude. It's the #1 most successful player in the history of BW you're talking about, and you're making it sound as if he (or in fact any pro player) gives a shit about a PowerRank? Ahahahaha. You and Etter's way of addressing players frontally and "throwing them a bone - LOL" amuses me to no end.
Keep the comedy up, people
Sure, it angers the Koreans who are not used to insulting their players out of love for the game and respect for fans of other pros, but lol, who cares about those slanted-eyed fucks anyway, eh Hot_Bid? Ain't I right, eh Etter old chap?
July, I just so wanted to tell you, and I know you're reading this - you suck cock like you do sausages , you fat fuck. I hope you do horrible in every league from now on, and I actually know you will, cause you can't distinguish your hatcheries from your ass-cheeks, you fat-drowned kimchi-hamburger.
Damn, I'm good...
-Mynock
you obviously didn't get my joke, i was just making a parody on Wasabi's post earlier. but okay i'm going to respond to your idiotic post anyway.
1. nobody said pro players care about power rank. it's a side feature on a random community powered starcraft news site. i don't know where you got the belief that anyone, etter included, thinks the power rank matters to anyone other than the people that post in the thread.
2. etter's style is just etter's style. i see you have a problem with the way he "insults" players, but again nobody had said anything racist about korean players or korean fans at all. who are all these koreans you are saying are insulted? i don't see any. and YOU'RE the one making jokes about "slanty-eyed fucks" while even in parody is an affront to not only koreans but to me as well, as it's a derogatory slur to every asian person. i am chinese. so please shut the fuck up about that ok?
3. everything you said about july is fine in a fan perspective. fans have said much worse to teams they hate in every sport. try to be a little less sensitive about players and fans "honor" being insulted and be a little MORE sensitive when you throw around "slanty-eyed fucks" when nobody, not in any threads in any power rank made any racist connotations. i have never and will never make a racist comment about any player, korean or not.
Mynock do us all a favor and shut the fuck up, I don't fucking care if you used "who cares about those slanty-eyed fucks, eh Hot_Bid?" in jest. It's not funny. I don't care what you meant by it, the implication is there. I'm Asian and quite proud of my heritage. That comment you used to mock me is not only condescending to me and every Korean its insulting to just about every political and social belief I strongly uphold.
I'm 100% serious when I say a big "FUCK YOU" to you ok?
So, am I the only one that's saying, "What the fuck happened to this thread?"
Either way. I don't want to touch the subject of whether or not someone should be offended by phrases like "slanty-eyed fucks," because it's a matter of what one's pride means on a subjective level to oneself. I will agree, however, that the racism was unwarranted and out of the blue. These slanty-eyed fucks are people we admire because they're so fucking good at Starcraft. Don't deny that, because you're on a website that started off devoted to them and have over 2500 posts. Slanty-eyed fucks: 1, Mynock: 0
No dude, what I sad was obviously very harsh and out-of-context and should never be tolerated, especially if I have a blue name to it. But um, you just agreed to what my point was.
These slanty-eyed fucks are people we admire because they're so fucking good at Starcraft. Don't deny that, because you're on a website that started off devoted to them and have over 2500 posts.
On June 13 2007 09:50 Mynock wrote: Now calm down, and replace Asian with "Terran player" or "favourite player" and think about it. And no, nothing I said about July is OK If I said it as a news-writer, on the FRONT PAGE. NO, NO, NO, NEVER. You are forgetting your position, Hot_Bid, you quite often do.
i haven't forgotten anything. where has Etter written anything like what you wrote in that statement about July? we've hashed and rehashed this argument about "insulting" korean progamers again and again. you think it's an insult that Etter writes the way he does, I think you're oversensitive. I doubt either party is changing, so i thought there was just a mutual agreement to drop the subject, and then out of the blue random you post again bringing it up. why?
That comment you used to mock me is not only condescending to me and every Korean its insulting to just about every political and social belief I hold.
Those are good words, think about them.
-Mynock
As if Etter saying "Nal_rA is terrible" or making a July fat joke is the same as calling them a "slanted-eyed fuck." Some are honest criticisms, some are jests, none are malicious racist remarks.
I find it pretty funny you'd imply that I'm being a hypocrit here. But whatever, drop the racism subject I fully agree with Jathin that it was completely misplaced and should be moved past. I'd appreciate no more posts about it.
On June 13 2007 09:50 Mynock wrote: Now calm down, and replace Asian with "Terran player" or "favourite player" and think about it. And no, nothing I said about July is OK If I said it as a news-writer, on the FRONT PAGE. NO, NO, NO, NEVER. You are forgetting your position, Hot_Bid, you quite often do.
i haven't forgotten anything. where has Etter written anything like what you wrote in that statement about July? we've hashed and rehashed this argument about "insulting" korean progamers again and again. you think it's an insult that Etter writes the way he does, I think you're oversensitive. I doubt either party is changing, so i thought there was just a mutual agreement to drop the subject, and then out of the blue random you post again bringing it up. why?
Agreed, I was a bit ambiguous here, this is why:
From Live2Win's reports:
last weeks game was nothing short of rape. It was like watching a progamer play with a C5 newb. I don't know WHAT went on in that man's head, but he's gotta do less DDR, and more BW.
Hwasin, I am disgusted. You are doing so well despite everyone's claims of you being the weaker link, and you've been throwing all sorts of shit in their faces to prove otherwise... then you enter last week with a freaking bbs build and completely fail it. What a joke.
A match that should be a bit more interesting. Last week match turned out to be a horrendous, Light pausing the game and whining about the map being different. Honestly... how do you practice on an old version for weeks, play a match on it in Group Stages, and STILL NOT NOTICE IT?! This goes to the MBC coaching staff and his teammates.
Can anybody explain to me what this is doing on the front page? Can anybody deny to know JUST WHEN it all started, and WHO started it?
That comment you used to mock me is not only condescending to me and every Korean its insulting to just about every political and social belief I hold.
Those are good words, think about them.
-Mynock
As if Etter saying "Nal_rA is terrible" or making a July fat joke is the same as calling them a "slanted-eyed fuck." Some are honest criticisms, some are jests, none are malicious racist remarks.
I find it pretty funny you'd imply that I'm being a hypocrit here. But whatever, drop the racism subject I fully agree with Jathin that it was completely misplaced and should be moved past. I'd appreciate no more posts about it.[/QUOTE]
It's OK if it's funny to you, that's not the point. Racism was only to stir some shit. And to show you that there are some things SOME people are MORE sensitive to than others. You don't get it, do you? I LOVE BW. I want to see it big, not a shit-fest about who sucks more. NONE OF THEM SUCK. They're all great, the question is who's better.
jathin articulated the part about news and the PR pretty well.
As for this:
On June 13 2007 08:32 Mynock wrote: You know what, I read this MANTOSS garbage left and right, and while it's pretty obvious it's fanboyism speaking, I'd NEVER call Reach a n00b, or say he sucks, even in the deepest of his slumps. Because he's great. Regardless of what he plays like now, he's GREAT. He's a prominent figure of BW. I'm not a fan of his, never was or will be. But it's obvious, and I'd be a fucking idiot if I couldn't acknowledge that much.
I remember the times people looked for something good to say about a player. Nowadays everybody just assumes everything for granted. There's 0 respect to people who shaped this game. People who make YOU play it nowadays, and provide YOU entertainment. People without whom the game would be dead by now.
Don't be ungrateful. Show some respect.
-Mynock
we're not talking about or parents or ancestors.
you make it seem like progamers are some sort of gods, like we owe them something for "shaping this game" or "providing us entertainment."
they get paid. they play. we watch and talk about them. we wouldn't watch if they weren't there, they wouldn't play if we weren't watching. nobody owes anyone some big debt of gratitude.
in the history of sports entertainment fans watch and criticize and cheer and make fun. that's what fans of sports do. nobody is sitting there babysitting them saying "don't be ungrateful, show some respect!!!"
you should be allowed to be a fan, because that's what we all are.
On June 13 2007 08:32 Mynock wrote: You know what, I read this MANTOSS garbage left and right, and while it's pretty obvious it's fanboyism speaking, I'd NEVER call Reach a n00b, or say he sucks, even in the deepest of his slumps. Because he's great. Regardless of what he plays like now, he's GREAT. He's a prominent figure of BW. I'm not a fan of his, never was or will be. But it's obvious, and I'd be a fucking idiot if I couldn't acknowledge that much.
I remember the times people looked for something good to say about a player. Nowadays everybody just assumes everything for granted. There's 0 respect to people who shaped this game. People who make YOU play it nowadays, and provide YOU entertainment. People without whom the game would be dead by now.
Don't be ungrateful. Show some respect.
-Mynock
we're not talking about or parents or ancestors.
you make it seem like progamers are some sort of gods, like we owe them something for "shaping this game" or "providing us entertainment."
they get paid. they play. we watch and talk about them. we wouldn't watch if they weren't there, they wouldn't play if we weren't watching. nobody owes anyone some big debt of gratitude.
in the history of sports entertainment fans watch and criticize and cheer and make fun. that's what fans of sports do. nobody is sitting there babysitting them saying "don't be ungrateful, show some respect!!!"
you should be allowed to be a fan, because that's what we all are.
We went through this a countless times, maybe I suck at emphasizing my point: YOU'RE NOT a fan, you're a news poster.
There are things that should NOT go on the front page. Almost anything is FINE in the forums - of course! I think it's great TL.net is basically the major hub for foreign BW ProGaming. Try not to turn it into some 8th grade shitty editorial column with overused cheap puns and insults.
Maybe I'm just turning old and remember the old days of Mensrea too much. If so, I dunno, guess I should just STFU. But I really thought it would be better that way, and that this way it's just going downhill.
uh, every single newsposter, sports journalist, sports reporter, sports writer in the history of athletic competition is still a fan.
that's true about cnn and espn, and certainly true for a community-powered fringe sport like progaming and a forum like TL. we're all fans at heart and always will be.
just because i have blue letters does not mean i somehow lose the ability to view and cheer and i have to be some sort of politically correct automaton that conforms to your notions of "respect" and "gratitude" towards athletes.
even so, i'm allowed to say nada sucks if he fucking sucks. which he does right now. newswriters are allowed to have opinions.
We're all fans, and the phenomenon of fans focusing on poor behaviour from well-known players is not an idiosyncrasy of teamliquid and its users -- pro sports fans from every sport do the same thing. any top athlete known for achieving top results will garner negative attention they start to play like crap. of course, this doesn't mean that the fans will appreciate good matches played by lesser known players any less, on the contrary, it means that they may receive additional attention, eventually. nobody will talk about a has-been forever, and while players and their personalities are vital parts for a successful [e]sports industry, in the end, it's all about the game.
this is also true of every editorial and column written by sportswriters too. if you check the local websites for the boston red sox and the new york yankees you'll find people saying much worse things about professional athletes than Etter says in his column.
people call A-Rod a sissy for slapping the baseball out of that first baseman's hand, that doesn't mean they don't recognize that he's likely one of the best players in baseball.
people call Robert Horry a cheater for cheap shotting Steve Nash but they still can say he's a clutch shooter.
people call Shaq fat all the time but still would love to have him on their team.
professional paid writers do these things, and the PR isn't any worse than that.
who said we should hold Etter to the standards of paid professional writers anyway?
On June 13 2007 10:25 Jathin wrote: I'm only posting this because I'm trying to get to 1500 posts so I can walk through the secret portal:
Mensrea was a News Writer. Andy is a PR columnist. Sure, they both have blue names - but their contributions to the website have different conditions. That's like telling Hot Bid that the Liquiscoops should follow the same format as the News articles. "Ken, no humor allowed, ok?"
PR is designed to be very subjective and opinionated. Along with that comes insults and biases. News is meant to purely state the facts and leave most of the other bullshit out. The PR is not a News Report, it is a column. It's kind of like a magazine where you have the News vs. Editorials/Letters to the Editor. The latter is far more subjective and opinionated than the former.
Um, Liquisqoop's humor was spot on. I miss Liquiscoop, and grieve that instead of that writeup which was a great writeup for the community ABOUT the community, we get the... ugh, some of the current incidents.
And the PR is on the front page. Keep it off of there then, if it's a column, duh.
Btw, I quoted something from Live2Win's last report. Someone please asses it and tell me what they think about those quotes?
Here it is again so you don't have to look for it:
"From Live2Win's reports:
last weeks game was nothing short of rape. It was like watching a progamer play with a C5 newb. I don't know WHAT went on in that man's head, but he's gotta do less DDR, and more BW.
Hwasin, I am disgusted. You are doing so well despite everyone's claims of you being the weaker link, and you've been throwing all sorts of shit in their faces to prove otherwise... then you enter last week with a freaking bbs build and completely fail it. What a joke.
A match that should be a bit more interesting. Last week match turned out to be a horrendous, Light pausing the game and whining about the map being different. Honestly... how do you practice on an old version for weeks, play a match on it in Group Stages, and STILL NOT NOTICE IT?! This goes to the MBC coaching staff and his teammates.
Can anybody explain to me what this is doing on the front page? Can anybody deny to know JUST WHEN it all started, and WHO started it?"
The good news is that's only 1 terran. The bad news is that we got 2 terrans guaranteed a spot, and 3 more that could possibly get in. Let's hope that doesn't happen.
there's a widely held belief that there are too many terrans in the current MSL and OSL due to imbalanced qualification maps and the lopsided racial distribution. since almost everyone wants to see an even distribution (thus more diverse matchups, less mirrors, in the later rounds) it's not really that bad to say you want less terrans advancing if there's an overwhelming amount of terrans in the Ro16.
also, if you have a criticism with someone's live report you should PM him or discuss it in MiR first. not saying this is the case here but sometimes it can rub people the wrong way.
edit: oh you put in the quotes. read my last paragraph. if you believe said issue to be a problem i guess discuss it in the proper place (MiR or PM with Live2win).
also, not that i agree or disagree, i just want to understand your position a bit better, but are you saying you'd still have a problem with those quotes if Etter wrote them in the PR? is this just an issue specifically about front page and side feature, or about writing style in general for the site?
The good news is that's only 1 terran. The bad news is that we got 2 terrans guaranteed a spot, and 3 more that could possibly get in. Let's hope that doesn't happen.
there's a widely held belief that there are too many terrans in the current MSL and OSL due to imbalanced qualification maps and the lopsided racial distribution. since almost everyone wants to see an even distribution (thus more diverse matchups, less mirrors, in the later rounds) it's not really that bad to say you want less terrans advancing if there's an overwhelming amount of terrans in the Ro16.
also, if you have a criticism with someone's live report you should PM him or discuss it in MiR first. not saying this is the case here but sometimes it can rub people the wrong way.
edit: oh you put in the quotes. read my last paragraph. if you believe said issue to be a problem i guess discuss it in the proper place (MiR or PM with Live2win).
also, not that i agree or disagree, i just want to understand your position a bit better, but are you saying you'd still have a problem with those quotes if Etter wrote them in the PR? is this just an issue specifically about front page and side feature, or about writing style in general for the site?
Writing style generally for the site. HOWEVER, I will assume that is merely because I grew oversensitive for these things by now, and feel touchy about it on the whole. I agree, this sort of comments should be OK in the PR, if the PR is basically kept as a column, a separate feature. You got me convinced there, and even though I would still not be happy if stuff like Good-fucking-Friend was written even in the PR, fine - I concede. Altho I have to mention that Etter's style improved a lot since, so now that is not so much of a problem. Etter actually writes OK on the front page as well.
However, I see a pattern here. An overwhelming majority of news containing derogatory content. Nobody is praising a player anymore. Nobody notices any great moves about the games. There are two main reasons this is happening: the reports are previews, so you can only really write about the players, blindly, and: TL's bandwagon of trying to be über-cool and sound all mighty and hip and in-da-flow, like D-D-D-J Etter Stailah. Foh shizzle. You can write derogatory remarks if that is what rocks your boat and if that's all you can think of as being funny - fine. Just keep it off the front page - the representative face of TL.net. Please. Please.
The former I find a bit sad, but it's kinda unavoidable, because the age of the reports I believe is gone, but the second is a typical TL thing which I find disgusting. Same with Mantoss, but that's an other issue of course...
I personally read the power rank mostly due to the way DJEtterStyle writes, but also because he knows what he's talking about. Theres a small share of people with same knowledge here, but very few of those able to articulate themselves in such a humorous way that he does.
The power rank isnt a dead serious ranking, and Im sure it was never meant to be either. It's supposed to be enjoyable and funny to read and at the same time give room for discussion. If he was supposed to wear silkgloves every time he talks about a player it would be boring. That being said it has to be original and with some flair. Just writing "he's terrible, horrible - insert other random negative slurs" wouldnt be funny. But when he writes for example in the comment on Midas problem with choking in important matches "He'll make a great girlfriend given he's a choker, but I can't give him first place due to his probable skill at fellatio, if I did that Tossgirl would be #1 every month". Stuff like this is funny for me atleast.
Would Midas - or for that effect - any other player agree to an interview with TL.net if they had a clue as to how they're being represented on this site? Honestly.
If I was being given so much attention that people from other countries were making a funny joke about me then I would definitely give an interview for the website ... but that's just me.
A few months ago I never thought I would say this, but I agree with MaGic~PhiL AND Mynock. Everything Mynock's written on the last two pages is perfectly reasonable and well-defended.
I think Jathin has a good handle on the situation as well.
One thing I think people should do more is try to remember who has said what and not assume that people who agree on one thing agree on everything else. Wasabi's comments were pretty over the top but jumping on MaGic~PhiL and Mynock over things they didn't say isn't a reasonable response to that.
In case anybody's keeping score, the Power Rank is my second-favorite feature of this site (Sorry Etter, I have to give the nod to Carnac's Proleague thread ).
On June 13 2007 10:54 Hot_Bid wrote: i'm assuming its this comment:
The good news is that's only 1 terran. The bad news is that we got 2 terrans guaranteed a spot, and 3 more that could possibly get in. Let's hope that doesn't happen.
there's a widely held belief that there are too many terrans in the current MSL and OSL due to imbalanced qualification maps and the lopsided racial distribution. since almost everyone wants to see an even distribution (thus more diverse matchups, less mirrors, in the later rounds) it's not really that bad to say you want less terrans advancing if there's an overwhelming amount of terrans in the Ro16.
also, if you have a criticism with someone's live report you should PM him or discuss it in MiR first. not saying this is the case here but sometimes it can rub people the wrong way.
edit: oh you put in the quotes. read my last paragraph. if you believe said issue to be a problem i guess discuss it in the proper place (MiR or PM with Live2win).
also, not that i agree or disagree, i just want to understand your position a bit better, but are you saying you'd still have a problem with those quotes if Etter wrote them in the PR? is this just an issue specifically about front page and side feature, or about writing style in general for the site?
Writing style generally for the site. HOWEVER, I will assume that is merely because I grew oversensitive for these things by now, and feel touchy about it on the whole. I agree, this sort of comments should be OK in the PR, if the PR is basically kept as a column, a separate feature. You got me convinced there, and even though I would still not be happy if stuff like Good-fucking-Friend was written even in the PR, fine - I concede. Altho I have to mention that Etter's style improved a lot since, so now that is not so much of a problem. Etter actually writes OK on the front page as well.
However, I see a pattern here. An overwhelming majority of news containing derogatory content. Nobody is praising a player anymore. Nobody notices any great moves about the games. There are two main reasons this is happening: the reports are previews, so you can only really write about the players, blindly, and: TL's bandwagon of trying to be über-cool and sound all mighty and hip and in-da-flow, like D-D-D-J Etter Stailah. Foh shizzle. You can write derogatory remarks if that is what rocks your boat and if that's all you can think of as being funny - fine. Just keep it off the front page - the representative face of TL.net. Please. Please.
The former I find a bit sad, but it's kinda unavoidable, because the age of the reports I believe is gone, but the second is a typical TL thing which I find disgusting. Same with Mantoss, but that's an other issue of course...
Well, these are my thoughts.
-Mynock
In my opinion, the reason that people are drawn to TL.net, rather than any other sites, is the PERSONALITY that is evident in every single news post, article, or feature.
The derogatory comments add flavor, not everything has to be a strict, to the point and 'front-page worthy.'
Why can't the "representative face of TL.net" actually respresent TL.net? Why can't it have some flavor? Some mistakes? Some derogatory comments? Some realism?
Lets just agree on these few things and finish this stupid offtopic \'\'discussions ( !?)\'\'
1) Nada does not deserve to be on the top 10 ranking right now. 2) Obviously NaDa didnt play too well. After all he lost. If he sucked in these games and what so ever.. is everyones own opinion. ( Some people find Boxer rules the shit when he loses a tight match and at the same time call NaDa a loser for beating Anytime 3:2 ). But after all its everyones own opinion. 3) NaDa does not suck in general, otherwise he couldnt have reached what he did. How can the probably most successful player ever suck ? 4) If you dont like NaDa say it. Its your opinion but if u dont like someone dont say he sucks, because not liking someone is one thing but denying he is skilled is another. And no matter how bad NaDa plays nowadays what he did do before is the exact opposite of sucking. 5) Some people write such \'\'statements\'\' with alot of irony or sarcams so dont get too annoyed or dont take it too serious, because most of it is just fun. 6) No one should try to \'\' defend\'\' a pro gamer. Its useless, he doesnt care at all what the PRanking is and what most people here think..
Mynock i guess its DJ\'s job to let this all sound a bit more \'\'spicy\'\'. Whats the deal if he writes only objective, calm and with no enthusiasm and no irony and well..
NaDa lost his last important games there for he is out of the top 10 ranking. Bisu is still winning his games therefor he stays at 1. Savior is also doing good recently he stays at 2. Stork is playing very good lately, too. Deserves 3.
ect..
that would be more like the truth ( !? ) but.. it sounds just dull and..u know..
So all here shouldnt take it too serious, but on the other hand i dont like it if some guys are randomly making stupid statements about players.
I just hate these kind of guys who are blind. Everyone they dislike sucks and has no skill and style and everyone they love is the winner even if he loses. Thats a thing id like to stop. Irony and sarcasm is something different and i like it. No matter which player\'s made fun of. Even if hes my favourite..
i can't wait to watch bisu and savior clash twice in the fianls of MSL and OSL, don't lie to yourself you know they will. A month or so ago i would of deemed there to be 3 "S class" so to speak, one of each race, but it is clear now that nada cannot even be considered in there league, not that nada isn't great, but compairing him to savior and bisu would be virtually an insult. sAviOr is and will forever will be the king of the zergs, the best we have seen and the best we ever will see. Savior is as close to perfection as any human could be at this game. But if savior is that then what is Bisu? I wonder if anyone here won't be watching their next confrotation with the highest of anticiaption.
Does anyone else feel that there rivalry will go beyond that of Boxer Yellow?
I'll say it again - some of you really need to read some sports columns and power rankings. Guess what? Those writers trash players and teams all the time!
imjinrok is one of those untouchable rivalries. I don't feel the same exhilaration with bisu/savior games.
I don't know, maybe it's just that sAviOr's style is so boring. Every Zvp of his looks almost identical. BoxeR and YellOw played on really bizarre maps using really odd strategies, which was part of the fun.
plus, besides just watching the games, imjinrok had the two players facing off. sAviOr is so sterile. And the attempted Bisu advertising doesn't really work. I don't even know his "official" nickname.
since when did they grant official nicks anyways -_-; so lame. "RED SNIPER" wtf
On June 13 2007 08:32 Mynock wrote: You know what, I read this MANTOSS garbage left and right, and while it's pretty obvious it's fanboyism speaking, I'd NEVER call Reach a n00b, or say he sucks, even in the deepest of his slumps. Because he's great. Regardless of what he plays like now, he's GREAT. He's a prominent figure of BW. I'm not a fan of his, never was or will be. But it's obvious, and I'd be a fucking idiot if I couldn't acknowledge that much.
I remember the times people looked for something good to say about a player. Nowadays everybody just assumes everything for granted. There's 0 respect to people who shaped this game. People who make YOU play it nowadays, and provide YOU entertainment. People without whom the game would be dead by now.
Don't be ungrateful. Show some respect.
-Mynock
WORD. Mynock I agree with you a 100%. Many of my friends dont like teamliquid because many users here dont show any respect to Korean Progamers. I admire Korean Progamers and will never insult them. Some people should chill out and show some respect to those who make Starcraft so great.
On June 15 2007 10:10 Carnac wrote: Yeah probably. Hope SKTT1 finally decides to use him more now though
Oov/July. SKT1's answer to PL Championship Title and 2v2.
Rofl, at the guy who doesn't consider Nada in Bisu's league. LOL, ridiculous. Nada is in a bad season but Bisu can't hold a candle to Nada. You seriously underestimate one of the greatest terrans to ever hold a mouse... a golden one too nonetheless.
It's known I dislike Nada... but there is a reason why he has fans. He is Pantech. He is the best Terran ever. He is the only Golden Mouse.
How can you compare that to a one time MSL winner? LOL.
On June 17 2007 23:30 Last Romantic wrote: YellOw won TWO games. AHahAHhaa. One against some dude who's like 0-7 TvZ this year though.. not much of an accomplishment there -_-;
You are talking about NaDa right?
Anyways it is good to see the continued success of the old progamers, must take a lot of determination to be down for so long and then spring back onto the scene.
On June 17 2007 23:30 Last Romantic wrote: YellOw won TWO games. AHahAHhaa. One against some dude who's like 0-7 TvZ this year though.. not much of an accomplishment there -_-;
You are talking about NaDa right?
Anyways it is good to see the continued success of the old progamers, must take a lot of determination to be down for so long and then spring back onto the scene.
No, Leta. NaDa has a decent TvZ rec this year [he did get 2nd last OSL, after all]
On June 17 2007 23:30 Last Romantic wrote: YellOw won TWO games. AHahAHhaa. One against some dude who's like 0-7 TvZ this year though.. not much of an accomplishment there -_-;
You are talking about NaDa right?
Anyways it is good to see the continued success of the old progamers, must take a lot of determination to be down for so long and then spring back onto the scene.
No, Leta. NaDa has a decent TvZ rec this year [he did get 2nd last OSL, after all]
I guess you missed my joke. I knew it was leta and not nada, but with nada's losing streak as of late I thought it would be semi-humorous.
On June 17 2007 12:32 Carnac wrote: Gorush will beat Bisu 3-0 in semis and then Savior in Finals 3-0, securing the 1st spot.
The way he got raped today by DarkElf was painful to watch. I'm not sure is back to his best level.
I don't think proleague is a very objective way to determine how 'hot' a player is; Bisu and Savior both have mediocre records in the proleague, but they are arguably the best players in the individual leagues.
On June 17 2007 12:32 Carnac wrote: Gorush will beat Bisu 3-0 in semis and then Savior in Finals 3-0, securing the 1st spot.
The way he got raped today by DarkElf was painful to watch. I'm not sure is back to his best level.
Actually, most of the people who are doing well in individual leagues aren't doing too well in proleague. Bisu has a pretty bad record in proleague right now. Reach hasn't been doing much 1v1s and sAviOr hasn't been very active in proleague 1v1s either.
Ironically enough the major exception to that rule is stork. If he hadn't ran into the ZvP destroyer that is savior, or thrown away his lead in the MSL ... we could be looking a very different power rank in time.
Then again, it happens. Birdtoss is still in it, and the power ranks could well change by the end of the week.So long as Bisu doesn't lose versus Flash <_< >_>
What are Nal_rA and Sea doing there. If you want to keep them in for Proleague accomplishments, then atleast have Sea above rA since Sea's record is better than rA's.
Let's temper that excitement, guys. Flash won after a failed cheese attempt from oov, and then he cheesed Bisu for a win. He's won a few PL games against such aces as Luxury, Clon, Rage, and Pokju (ok, and Pusan, but the map was Geometry).
Obviously he'll make the Power Rank if he takes down Bisu, but let's not get too excited just yet. There's not enough evidence to make any conclusive statement at this point.
You know who is doing well? Not PR well enough, but I honestly feel by the end of PL season we will definately feel his impact but people forget about? Anytime.
That boy is doing so well, carrying Lecaf as usual. Jaedong can't beat a Protoss, but Anytime is strong hitting a variety of MUs and taking them down. Not bad for someone who's easy to dismiss atm.
And GoRush is currently 8-0 or 7-0 in the MSL. What idiot isn't gonna put him in top 5 ETTERBOMB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! jk. Top 10 plz -
And yo, Show FirebatHero some love. Fire atm. Samsung's FBH and Stork... fuckin Samsung FINALLY got their aces. I mean, Jju is good too, but lately not as powerful.
anyone who makes the semis of msl/osl is obviously gonna be in the PR... as well as the 4 players who made it to quarters in BOTH leagues (bisu, savior, hwasin, stork) no matter what happens to them afterwards
On June 24 2007 09:54 Jathin wrote: Wow, premature ejaculations all around.
Bisu's still dominating. He may wind up losing to Flash, but even then it'll be too premature to say that Bisu doesn't deserve #1. The maps have been Hitchhiker (newbie cheese win) and Monty Hall. Monty's hard as fuck for a P (contrary to what the stats imply, the skill differential has always been huge on this map when the P wins).
Savior's still damn good. Sure he lost 3-2 to FBH. Game #1 I'd say Savior played much, much better. FBH still showed amazing macro, but his armies just kept continually getting crushed. He turtled and there was almost nothing Savior could've done. Game #3 FBH was a legit skill-win, I'll give that to FBH. What'll really determine Savior's rank will be his performance against Iris. He's down 0-1 and there's not much to justify keeping him at #2 if he loses and is knocked out of both MSL and OSL. It'll be tricky to judge if Savior winds up winning; his placement will be highly contingent on how well the other guys perform.
What's so exciting about next power rank is that the problem is no longer "who do we choose for the bottom 5, and who do we exclude?" -- but rather, "How do we distribute the top-5?" Because the people at the top have been playing well but still losing, it's a really tough call -- Savior (#2) lost to FBH (unranked). Bisu (#2) is currently losing to Flash (unranked). Hwasin (#4) lost to Bisu (#1). Hwasin (#4) is currently losing to GGPlay (#9). Stork (#3) is currently losing to Reach (#10).
If I had to guess, the only person that's 'safe' in PR top 5 is Stork. If he loses to Reach, oh well, it's PVP and both are damn strong players. This is of course assuming he crushes 910, which he should. If he loses to 910, he's out of top 5. Might even be out of PR altogether if he loses to Reach too.
All of the players in the top-4 were in both the MSL and OSL. Two of them have been booted out of MSL (less important than OSL), but all that says is that they're on the same playing-field as the remaining 6. So be weary of what a loss actually means.
And then there's the issue of GoRush. Where does he get placed?
great analysis, and i think it's very accurate to the current situation... the top 5 have strong presences in msl and osl, but most of them are in trouble at the moment... it's so hard to judge their overall rank based on just a couple of games, when they have all been so dominant for quite a while now...
On June 24 2007 09:54 Jathin wrote: All of the players in the top-4 were in both the MSL and OSL. Two of them have been booted out of MSL (less important than OSL)
And then there's the issue of GoRush. Where does he get placed?
This used to be the case, and OSL is still more professional in execution imo. However, with the increase in prize money, and the two tournaments sporting different but very difficult structures, MSL being 32 also, I believe we can honestly judge the leagues as equals now in terms of importance.
And GoRush obviously #1 jah? I personally think he is top 5 all day tho. He clean swept #7, #8, and is facing off #1, beat #2's Terran -_____-;, but it WAS desperado ~_~ and the build was eggsellant. Plus he raped all the newbies in his group like aint no thang.
GoRush certainly has made a strong case for himself this past month; i would be surprised if he is not in the top 3 let alone 5... Personally, i think savior needs to drop out of top 3; given he loses to iris.. probably settle about 5-10ish. Bisu is pretty much guaranteed number 1, if not.. two (to gorush); lets face it Flash is just unstoppable tvp; hence it unfair to drop bisu out given the crap maps Flash needs to be up there as well, as well as FBH (3-2 vs savior has gotta get you somewhere on this list)
I was wondering what GoRush did to even remotely consider #1 consideration. After checking up on MSL, I've concluded: nothing. He still has to get through Bisu, and if (big if) he manages that, he has to face Firebathero or (likely) Stork. Out of all the remaining players, I'd say the chance of him winning it is by far the lowest. His victories haven't been against the best of the competition either... if going off of impressive performance, FBH certainly gets the nod before him, and I wouldn't even consider putting FBH ahead of Bisu unless Bisu bombs hard and soon (although perhaps ahead of Stork, Savior, and Hwasin at this point..).
On June 25 2007 02:47 Plexa wrote: GoRush certainly has made a strong case for himself this past month; i would be surprised if he is not in the top 3 let alone 5... Personally, i think savior needs to drop out of top 3; given he loses to iris.. probably settle about 5-10ish. Bisu is pretty much guaranteed number 1, if not.. two (to gorush); lets face it Flash is just unstoppable tvp; hence it unfair to drop bisu out given the crap maps Flash needs to be up there as well, as well as FBH (3-2 vs savior has gotta get you somewhere on this list)
You're going to be terribly disappointed. GoRush won't even be a consideration for #1. It's hard to argue that he'll even be top 4-5 when you have Bisu/Savior/Stork/Hwasin still competing. True, Savior lost to FBH. But that doesn't mean he played poorly. A very well-played loss is worth more than a poorly played victory. Mirror matches also don't mean much (TvT is the most skill-based mirror mu).
From may; 1:0 Shine 1:0 Savior 2:0 Sea 0:1 Nada 3:0 July 0:1 Darkelf
ok, not too great; but the way each game is being played has to be taken into consideration... 1 may be alittle tooo high atm.. but if he stomps bisu then ! and if he doesnt... well its bisu ffs!
About savior; if he loses to iris as well, then he should drop from 2 imo.. i think he should drop anyway (to atmost 3) because although he played well vs FBH, he still lost, and played like crap against iris.. hopefully we see an improvement
Nada has been doing terrible, so it might as well be a nobody. Shine and Darkelf, okay, but not impressive. Sea, a bit better. Savior was playing as terran, and while he didn't look like a complete slouch, that has to be taken into account. That leaves the sweep of July as the only set of games where he was facing top caliber competition (July certainly had been playing well).
I've watched nearly all those games, and unless he pulled something crazy off against Sea, none of them really made me go "wow." I was surprised he swept July, but July didn't look like he had been looking in at least one of those games (memory is a bit foggy).
Compare to this to Firebathero who has trashed pretty much every Terran and Savior (in a best of 5 at that). Even if GoRush stomped Bisu, unless Firebathero nosedives in his next MSL matchup in spectacular fashion, I'd almost be inclined to rate FBH ahead of GoRush anyways. I have the feeling FBH has a legit shot at winning MSL (even if he hasn't really played any good Protoss). GoRush? Eh... not so much.
Nada has been doing terrible, so it might as well be a nobody. Shine and Darkelf, okay, but not impressive. Sea, a bit better. Savior was playing as terran, and while he didn't look like a complete slouch, that has to be taken into account. That leaves the sweep of July as the only set of games where he was facing top caliber competition (July certainly had been playing well).
I've watched nearly all those games, and unless he pulled something crazy off against Sea, none of them really made me go "wow." I was surprised he swept July, but July didn't look like he had been looking in at least one of those games (memory is a bit foggy).
Compare to this to Firebathero who has trashed pretty much every Terran and Savior (in a best of 5 at that). Even if GoRush stomped Bisu, unless Firebathero nosedives in his next MSL matchup in spectacular fashion, I'd almost be inclined to rate FBH ahead of GoRush anyways. I have the feeling FBH has a legit shot at winning MSL (even if he hasn't really played any good Protoss). GoRush? Eh... not so much.
Ok fair call... FBH probably does deserve it more; he is looking very very good.. but that being said; i dont think he can take stork imo But then again, this is Power Rank not KeSPA, so if you're playing well; and look in good shape you can still get on this list
I agree that FBH should be ahead of GoRush on the next PR. I thought FBH should have had a low spot last PR so obviously he should have a higher one now. GoRush should have a spot too but on the bottom 5. There's no reason he should be higher than that. Even if Savior loses to Iris he should still be in the top 5 though; I hope for that.
On June 27 2007 18:36 hhkx wrote: damn, i hope savior doesn't drop too much on the next PR..
Yeah. And who should be placed over him? The first 3 places won't change at least till the next PR. The closest player to the 1-2 places is Stork and to be worth of them he should win one of the two starleagues. And that won't happen in this month
Now that we know the semifinalists of both the MSL and OSL let us have a closer look.
We had 4 players who were in the quarters of OSL and MSL:
Savior
Bisu
Stork
Hwasin
as well as 8 players who were in the quarters of eiher OSL or MSL:
Gorush
Iris
Firebathero
GGPlay
Flash
Reach
July
910
So we get a list of quarters participated / quarters won which looks like this:
Stork 2/2
Bisu 2/1
Hwasin 2/0
Savior 2/0
Gorush 1/0
Iris 1/1
Firebathero 1/1
GGPlay 1/1
Flash 1/1
Reach 1/0
July 1/0
910 1/0
My thoughts on the next ranking: #1Beyond any doubt Stork must be #1 in the next PR. He is the only player in the semis of both Starleagues and he also has a sick Proleague record. Did I mention that Samsung sent him out for ace matches five times and that he won them all? That's right. Doesn't matter that he lost vs Savior at first, he redeemed himself by raping everyone in the Wildcard round and then dismantled 910 like the newbie he is.
#2 This is where it gets hard already, because we have several worthy contenders. Because Samsung is on a roll and FBH is the first player to beat Savior in a Starleague TvZ bo5 series and he also is 8-1 in Proleague (!) I will put FBH on #2. That being said I don't like the guy at all.
#3 Bisu. He lost one in OSL quarters 0-2 to marine cheeses, which isn't enough to drop him a lot, since he won in MSL quarters vs Hwasin and managed to start winning in Proleague, going from a former 0-5 record to 5-5 now.
#4 Savior. Yeah, he's out of both Starleagues, but he looked strong and having to play ZvT on Monty is... well... gay.
Flash, GGPlay, Iris and Gorush must be in it as well, too lazy to think about their appropriate ranks right now though.
I can't argue with Carnac's logic there. Stork is undoubtedly right at the top -> although I suspect he'll be in trouble if he has to face GGplay again.
Right now though, in terms of pure Form Stork is looking with good cjances to take both Starleagues. Yes, he has to get through FBH, but I'd go with Stork's PvT over FBH's TvP (same with Flash vs Stork in an OSL final). Gorush and GGplay are defiantly obstacles ... but Stork's been there and taken down Gorush in high stakes PvZ, at least. He can beat them if he faces them, there's no doubt about that.
I agree that FBH will probably not be on #2, even if I put him there. Hell, I even personally only put him there just for the sake of doing so. The 5th game vs Savior was brilliant though. Almost as brilliant as Casy vs July on RLT. He perfectly studied his opponent and totally fooled him. Yeah, that's a skill too.
As for Stork #1 don't forget his Wildcard games, where he looked incredibly strong. Not to mention that if players look similarly strong in the Starleagues (which is true for Bisu and Stork) then you have to take into account their Proleague results, which easily secures Stork in spot #1. Like I said he won 5 ace matches for his team this season..
I don't see why some of you don't give Flash more credit. He excuted two PERFECT cheeses against the number 1 power ranker and dismantled him. The cheeses weren't even close games whatsoever. Flash simply rolled the fuck over Bisu. Flash has also proved he is plenty competent in longer TvP games as well so I don't think the fact that he chose to win with 'cheese' should hurt him that much. He should probably be in the top 5 I'd say.
What is he 14-2 now in his career losing only to Boxer and Savior? I mean come on now, that's scary.
On June 29 2007 08:09 boghat wrote: I don't see why some of you don't give Flash more credit. He excuted two PERFECT cheeses against the number 1 power ranker and dismantled him. The cheeses weren't even close games whatsoever. Flash simply rolled the fuck over Bisu.
I don't see why you guys don't give Every)P(TT more credit. He executed these perfect cheeses against both Yellow and Midas. Seriously, the games weren't even close. TT just rolled the fuck over them.
...
Your argument is retarded, and cheese isn't a good way to impress someone who's trying to judge your skill.
Added: I'm going on a road trip this weekend; the new PR probably won't be up until the 3rd.
On June 29 2007 08:09 boghat wrote: I don't see why some of you don't give Flash more credit. He excuted two PERFECT cheeses against the number 1 power ranker and dismantled him. The cheeses weren't even close games whatsoever. Flash simply rolled the fuck over Bisu.
I don't see why you guys don't give Every)P(TT more credit. He executed these perfect cheeses against both Yellow and Midas. Seriously, the games weren't even close. TT just rolled the fuck over them.
...
Your argument is retarded, and cheese isn't a good way to impress someone who's trying to judge your skill.
TT has pissed me off in the past because he cheeses so much but I never didn't give him credit for being good at successfully cheesing. I've never seen those two games you mention so I don't know if TT should be given as much credit as I think Flash deserves. For example I remember hearing that Midas just made a really bad build order for TT's rush and it was a bonehead move from him. But the big difference here is TT did those cheeses in preliminary leagues whereas this is the OSL RO8. I don't see why TT has much relevance in this discussion though.
Flash successfully cheesed the #1 power ranked Bisu two games in a row in the RO8 in the OSL. That is pretty impressive to me. If you aren't impressed by this though then there's always the fact that he went 7-1 in June as well as 4-1 in the OSL, 6-1 in the Proleague, and 14-2 overall. Clearly he's been building up to getting a spot on the power rank the past couple months and the 2-0 of Bisu is the icing on the cake.
Cheese is cheese, Flash has a lot to prove. I won't get the feeling he's a really solid stong player until I see him win a straight up Bo5 series, without cheese :-) Of course successful cheese gets the job done, props for the guts over everything else, Flash is fearless, but like I said, lots and lots to prove.
OK, I admit I'm not very good at this but I think:
Stork (He's been unbeatable, only got beaten by Savior but he made his way through the wildcards and is back in MSL again looking VERY strong in both leagues too)
FBH (23 wins and 4 losses for the past 2 months. He's doing great in Proleague, went undefeated in his Starchallenge group, smashed Iloveoov, 1st terran player to beat Savior in a Starleague in an epic BO5, enough said.)
Savior (dropped out of both leagues doing OK in PL but playing mostly 2v2)
Flash (This kid is amazing. Only 2 losses in his entire career being to Savior and Boxer. Maybe he should be over Savior?)
Bisu (he has a match vs Gorush in 2 days so can't decide yet)
Gorush (he has a match vs Bisu in 2 days so can't decide yet)
Iris (Advanced to to OSL by beating Savior in a BO3, doing well in Proleague)
GGPlay (Beat a VERY good TvZ player and advanced to the semis. He looks promising)
On June 29 2007 10:35 KizZBG wrote: FBH (23 wins and 4 losses for the past 2 months. He's doing great in Proleague, went undefeated in his Starchallenge group, smashed Iloveoov, 1st person to beat Savior in a Starleague in an epic BO5, enough said.)
He didn't smash oov..., the games were really close and intense, all three of them
I'd really hesitate to put Stork at #1, even if he is the only one left in both starleagues. I wouldn't have any qualms with putting him at #2. I think Bisu eeks him out at number 1 given that he lost "just" a bo3. Haven't watched the games, but if it was cheese as I've read, well... that sucks.
On June 29 2007 10:35 KizZBG wrote: FBH (23 wins and 4 losses for the past 2 months. He's doing great in Proleague, went undefeated in his Starchallenge group, smashed Iloveoov, 1st person to beat Savior in a Starleague in an epic BO5, enough said.)
He didn't smash oov..., the games were really close and intense, all three of them
They probably were. But from what I remember FBH played a lot better the last two games. I guess I've have to watch them again.
Obviously Flash has a lot to prove, he's only played 16 games. But right now he's shown some real ultimate POWER! GGPlay will be the real test because his TvZ is probably his least proven and GGPlay obviously has a great ZvT so this will be a sweet bo5.
2 chesses in TvP does not prove that much. Bisu actually doing very well in PL recently.
Let's see how etter's judgement for Flash in next PR. The PowerRank Placement for next month will be very difficult. If Bisu won today, I think he could keep his top slot.
On June 29 2007 10:35 KizZBG wrote: FBH (23 wins and 4 losses for the past 2 months. He's doing great in Proleague, went undefeated in his Starchallenge group, smashed Iloveoov, 1st person to beat Savior in a Starleague in an epic BO5, enough said.)
You mean first Terran player right? Both Chojja and Bisu have beaten Savior in a BO5 in the MSL finals.
All this is so exciting, can't believe it. GGplay is rather easy prey for Flash, ad then Stork? Well, that could provide for some epic games. Or epic failures. Let's hope for the first.
On June 29 2007 11:40 Mynock wrote: GGplay is rather easy prey for Flash
You, sir, seem to be vastly underestimating GGPlay
Or you're underestimating Flash... I'm not sure either way, I really thought GGPlay was done for when having to face Hwasin. But Hwasin gave Game 1 away, an didn't manage to come back from there anymore. Hence I'm inclined to believe Flash is now a favourite to win the whole OSL after his show vs Bisu. the guy seems to be growing by the minute. And reminds me of the BoxeR of old - what a sight to behold.
Plenty of room to argue of course.
PS.: Oh and people crying about their favourites getting cheesed is starting to get retarded. A win is a win, a loss is a loss. Learn to live with it either way.
On June 29 2007 10:35 KizZBG wrote: FBH (23 wins and 4 losses for the past 2 months. He's doing great in Proleague, went undefeated in his Starchallenge group, smashed Iloveoov, 1st person to beat Savior in a Starleague in an epic BO5, enough said.)
You mean first Terran player right? Both Chojja and Bisu have beaten Savior in a BO5 in the MSL finals.
Mynock, watch game 1 again, Hwasin didn't "give it away" he simply got outplayed by GGPlay. It's true though that GGPlay has games where he's on and games where he's not, but his late game management is absolutely incredible. It's almost Savior level, seriously.
And what's the big deal about Flash's "show vs Bisu"? He cheesed both games and did so successfully. It doesn't really mean anything, not that he would've lost had be played straight up, but not that he would have won either. Aside from today's games If you look at his match list and take player and map into consideration he has three wins worth mentioning, (Bisu @ Arkanoid, Free @ Long, oov @ Monty), maybe 4 if you want to be generous and count Light @ Hitchhiker as well, although I personally think Light is horrible. That being said he _m_a_y_ very well be the prodigy some seem to think he is, but he still has to prove a lot.
See, I'm not sure either, but I've underestimated him before, and since he fucked up my predictions for this OSL, I'm just not willing to do so again. And besides - the kid IS a kid ffs! It really IS amazing, nobody else did this to Bisu - and a win IS a win.
What about Flash's recent rush or 'cheese' against Luxury in Proleague? That seemed a bit impromptu although maybe he had already decided to do it if he saw Lux fast expand like he did. Even so he executes his rushes extremely well.
On June 29 2007 14:07 Jathin wrote: Very few cheeses are impromptu, therefore most of them are pretty smooth (preparation lies in choosing the appropriate places to proxy, etc. Studying common scouting pathways usually tells you where to place proxies). The only truly notable cheeses/quick thinking moments I can think of are Boxer's lift off against Yellow on Bladestorm, and the one where the T lifted his CC off and blocked the P in on LT I think -- to win the game, when the P proxy gated.
On June 29 2007 12:50 Carnac wrote: A win may be a win, but 2 cheese wins seriously mean nothing, neither in a positive nor in a negative way.
Two 20 minutes game mean more than two fast games ? Who the F**** are you to judge this ? I dont want to sound too offensive but its getting really ridicolous if we start to judge the players by the length of their games or by their strategy used. Fact is : Flash CLEARLY won two games vs bisu who is or was for a while the hottest pro gamer. And where is the difference if he wins with a 100/100 army or a 20/20 army. Can we really say winning with 5 marines and a few scvs twice means less than winning a late game ? More over who gives a shit if a Terran which is undefeated vs p's ( i dont know exactly.. 8:0 ? 9:0 ? ) cheeses a few times in those. So we still have a few wins out of these games which werent cheese.. so.. at least means something, eeh hee ? ; )
Carnac you know me i know you.. nothing absolutely nothing against you.. but this stuff in general is pissing me off so much and i can just wonder how u blame mantoss lovers and guys like these but come up with such stupid stuff..
i always hated it if people did give more credit to strategy and game style than to the simple win.. The win is the most important goal and for sure the performance matters a lot and winning if your opponent played weak isnt as impressive as if he played well as fuck, too..
but let me say it like this : Bisu didnt almost have no chance at winning these 2 games vs flash. He chose the right strategy twice, he played it close to perfectly twice and bisu couldnt even do anything at all twice. Thats exactly whats important to see how good someone is. The only lack i see are a few tanks and vults and a game that lasts over 10 minutes. So what ? Isnt it the true genius who forces the game to go in the way it suites himself best ?
ill stop here ..
and no im not even a tiny bit of a flash fan.. actually im a Reach fan but im honest and no blind mantoss lover : i knew that stork is the better player right now ( he is ). I like bisu 10 times more than flash but u just have to accept that flash did what he did..
and that guarantees him at least a spot in the Power Ranking. Probably top 5
On June 29 2007 12:50 Carnac wrote: A win may be a win, but 2 cheese wins seriously mean nothing, neither in a positive nor in a negative way.
Two 20 minutes game mean more than two fast games ? Who the F**** are you to judge this ?
I dont want to sound too offensive but its getting really ridicolous if we start to judge the players by the length of their games or by their strategy used. Fact is : Flash CLEARLY won two games vs bisu who is or was for a while the hottest pro gamer. And where is the difference if he wins with a 100/100 army or a 20/20 army. Can we really say winning with 5 marines and a few scvs twice means less than winning a late game ?
Think, dude, think. A 5 minute long marine rush cheese PvT tells us nothing about how a player would be able to manage later stages of the game with more troops, multi-tasking, pressure etc against the same player.
I don't even know what you want from me. I wasn't discrediting Flash's wins at all. Nor am I mad at him or anything. But saying that 2 cheese wins mean anything is simply wrong.
More over who gives a shit if a Terran which is undefeated vs p's ( i dont know exactly.. 8:0 ? 9:0 ? ) cheeses a few times in those. So we still have a few wins out of these games which werent cheese.. so.. at least means something, eeh hee ? ; )
I personally don't give a shit about the fact that Flash cheesed, as I just said... And except two games (vs Free @ Long and vs Bisu @ Arkanoid) his other TvP games don't say much either, because either his opponents sucked or they were played on retarded maps like Geometry (lol. go look up how the Proteams send out almost Terran only on Geo in my Proleague thread, because the map is so retarded). -.-
Carnac you know me i know you.. nothing absolutely nothing against you.. but this stuff in general is pissing me off so much and i can just wonder how u blame mantoss lovers and guys like these but come up with such stupid stuff..
Geometry is the most imbalanced piece of crap map ever. Mot weighing into the debate or anything just wanted to say that. I'm so glad its not being used in either the OSL or MSL.
Mark these words, GGplay will put our young prodigy in his place. I truly think that Flash has spectacular potential, but this is not his starleague. He hasn't been fully tested yet, and some of you really really underestimate GGplay's zvt and late game play. He has had TONS of epic matches and he ends up winning quite a bit of them. Flash is good, but there's no need to start worshipping him yet. He'll have his glory in the future, but this is not his OSL. I'm predicting a GGplay Stork Finals.
The game Flash won against free in ODT was cheese as well. It was proxy raxes against frees 14 nexus on Longinus. Doesnt exactly make him any less awesome
On June 29 2007 12:50 Carnac wrote: A win may be a win, but 2 cheese wins seriously mean nothing, neither in a positive nor in a negative way.
Two 20 minutes game mean more than two fast games ? Who the F**** are you to judge this ?
I dont want to sound too offensive but its getting really ridicolous if we start to judge the players by the length of their games or by their strategy used. Fact is : Flash CLEARLY won two games vs bisu who is or was for a while the hottest pro gamer. And where is the difference if he wins with a 100/100 army or a 20/20 army. Can we really say winning with 5 marines and a few scvs twice means less than winning a late game ?
Think, dude, think. A 5 minute long marine rush cheese PvT tells us nothing about how a player would be able to manage later stages of the game with more troops, multi-tasking, pressure etc against the same player.
I don't even know what you want from me. I wasn't discrediting Flash's wins at all. Nor am I mad at him or anything. But saying that 2 cheese wins mean anything is simply wrong.
More over who gives a shit if a Terran which is undefeated vs p's ( i dont know exactly.. 8:0 ? 9:0 ? ) cheeses a few times in those. So we still have a few wins out of these games which werent cheese.. so.. at least means something, eeh hee ? ; )
I personally don't give a shit about the fact that Flash cheesed, as I just said... And except two games (vs Free @ Long and vs Bisu @ Arkanoid) his other TvP games don't say much either, because either his opponents sucked or they were played on retarded maps like Geometry (lol. go look up how the Proteams send out almost Terran only on Geo in my Proleague thread, because the map is so retarded). -.-
Carnac you know me i know you.. nothing absolutely nothing against you.. but this stuff in general is pissing me off so much and i can just wonder how u blame mantoss lovers and guys like these but come up with such stupid stuff..
One has absolutely nothing to do with the other?
so even Flash has like 10:0 tvp record, it still doesn't impress you...
On June 29 2007 22:33 Evilmonkey. wrote: Mark these words, GGplay will put our young prodigy in his place. I truly think that Flash has spectacular potential, but this is not his starleague. He hasn't been fully tested yet, and some of you really really underestimate GGplay's zvt and late game play. He has had TONS of epic matches and he ends up winning quite a bit of them. Flash is good, but there's no need to start worshipping him yet. He'll have his glory in the future, but this is not his OSL. I'm predicting a GGplay Stork Finals.
I have to agree with this. GGplay is a dangerous opponent to underestimate, his ZvT is amazing and his ZvP is obviously still potent. A GGplay vs Stork final would probably be the greatest possible test for the Birdtoss too.
Would be today's Semi final between Bisu vs Gorush also took account for next PowerRank. I don't know how excatly the timeframe for PR looks like. Is it from 1.June to 30.June or it is just from last PR day to the day when etter write the PR again?
Tough, very tough! Bisu, Stork and.. FBH?, top3... sAviOr can definitely still rank above Flash, but probably below Iris? And not sure about GGPlay exactly... GoRush, if his game vs Bisu was on the 10th or something, he'd be top5, but now he won't? I'd say him and Hwasin are both really tough to place. So imo, Group1: Bisu, Stork, FBH Group2: Iris, Flash, sAviOr, GGPlay, GoRush, Hwasin Then there's rA, July, Reach, Sea?... The thought of Rock actually entered my mind, but then I also have to think Upmagic, Jaedong, Chalrenge in the same category so whatever, and NaDa > Rock anyday anytime so its a confused statement forget it :-) Sea is above them all in that category anyway I guess.. somehow... This month is really tough. Next month will be soo much easier. And btw, XellOs really deserves a 'close but no cigar' mention for the wildcard group :-) Also if you mention Oov take it easy :-P Every single Terran in the entire world would suffer an even worse beating from FBH... Iris, Sea, NaDa, fOrGG, Sheis, or whoever, would all fall down easily to FBH's TvT, all and all I think everyone would agree it was an excellent Bo3 set.
On July 01 2007 08:21 InRaged wrote: You guys are too hunger for the new legends. The leagues ain't over yet and you already wanna place Stork higher than two champions.
Everyone the next PR is inaccurate, Etter isn't first place in Liquibet anymore, he has his flaws. I vote that the #1 in liquibet be the PR poster every month XD.
On July 01 2007 13:30 SiZ.FaNtAsY wrote: Everyone the next PR is inaccurate, Etter isn't first place in Liquibet anymore, he has his flaws. I vote that the #1 in liquibet be the PR poster every month XD.
1. Bisu (He has been playing top-tier for far too long to be knocked out solely because of the OSL results, as much as I love Flash) 2. Stork (Stork has to be #2 after performing as he has; sure he's only in the MSL because of the wildcard, but he had to deal with Savior, and he is the only player still in both starleagues) 3. Savior (Out of both starleagues, but there is still something to be said of how long he held an iron fist over the game of StarCraft, as well as the close nature of the games that he lost) 4. FBH (Yeah, he's ridiculous, but how many people thought he would advance through the ro32 in a group with rA, Canata, and BoxeR? He's been the underdog since his entry into the MSL, but he keeps winning against the odds, despite the arguably dubious nature of some of the wins) 5. Hwasin (He got tough draws in both of his Starleagues to be sure, and got eliminated in both of them. But he still got fairly well into both leagues and showed a level of play that we haven't really seen from him before) 6. Iris (He looked pretty solid in his first game against Savior, and although he faltered a bit in the next few games, he still eliminated Savior - even if it was on Monty Hall) 7. GGPlay (Who expected him to take down Hwasin? Very few. But he did just that solidly, and maintained the sole hope of Zerg in starleagues. Along with the likes of Midas, Light, etc. he's been known to have extremely good potential and skill but he cracks against top names. Now, though, he came out the winner over a formidable opponent, one with undeniably stellar TvZ.) 8. Flash (I love Flash, but I can't bump him over his fellow OSL semifinalists just yet. He's been awesome so far, but he still has a lot to prove) 9. GoRush (The 3-0 of July was convincing (and also saddening for me), but the games against Bisu were convincing only for GoRush's opponent.) 10. Reach (#10 is a rather ambiguous call, but I'll give it to the only OSL quarterfinalist who hasn't been mentioned yet. The MSL ro8 players who aren't here just weren't consistent or skilled enough to warrant the #10 spot. Reach played pretty solidly but in the end got outplayed by Stork)
Savior was one of four people that made the quarters of both Starleagues. Stork is still in both, Bisu is in one, and Savior and Hwasin were knocked out of both. Savior has not shown that he has lost any of his top tier skill either. He should definitely still be 3 or at least 4 but there's no reason to put Hwasin ahead of him. It's not too hard to figure out.
On July 03 2007 19:26 DennizR wrote: Hwasin shouldnt even be top 10, how can you even compare him to savior? -_-
yeah man, people who make quarterfinals of both leagues simultaneously while having a decent proleague rec don't deserve to be in the top 10 power rank.
On July 04 2007 02:14 SiZ.FaNtAsY wrote: Shut the fuck up peoples XD
I talked to him, and he's waiting until FBH vs Stork match is done.
There stop whining!!
lol waiting till the 5th. So wait till the 6th why don't you, Stork vs Iris... While you're at it, why not wait till the 13th for Flash vs GGPlay? Maybe the 14th for MSL finals, you know what, just skip this month because its best to wait till the 21st for OSL finals as well and Proleague playoffs starting. I'd say whatever if July started in the middle of a play week, but the 1st was set perfectly on Sunday, a new week with various sets from the 4rth to 21st. Not for this month's ranking.
On July 04 2007 06:22 Jathin wrote: Yeah man I totally agree. The dude has a job to do and he has the nerve to go on vacation. Then he comes back and wants time to recover and is perhaps waiting for 1 more match? Fuck that bullshit. We don't pay him to sit around and vacation all day.
you didnt even get what we were talking about..., fuck your sarcasm
I think its perfectly find to wait for FBH vs Stork... i mean, theyre both incredibly in form, and while stork has been dominating for longer, FBH is as good (if not better) than him right now... This match would give definitive distinction between the two... although he could just put stork ahead regardless like he did with anytime
Its not alright to wait for it, it would damage either Stork or FBH's proper rank as of the beginning of the month, if you wait, then wait till the 7th why not? and maybe if Stork loses both semi-finals (unlikely but anything is possible) then you can place him below top-5 when he deserved it 7 days ago as it should have been.
This is either a monthly PR, or a dynamic one, you can change it after every single matchup if you want, but as I understand its a monthly ranking. In the beginning of the month, FBH and Stork deserve something that they may not get 6 days afterwards. You can and should adjust that in the next month PR, not just wait for whatever matchup.
Of course, if for example FBH loses 0-3, then you can place him below GGPlay or sAviOr or whoever, because then you can they are both out of both leagues.. yeah duh, you can then say sAviOr was in both Ro8, but if FBH is out then sAviOr or Hwasin now has 'something on him', you can't just wait for any matchup a week afterward -_- If you wait for 1 semi-finals, when they are all X days apart in the same month, heck if you wait for FBH vs Stork and actually not wait for Iris vs Stork which is a single day after, you're doing FBH disservice, then might as well make a PR by the end of all semi-finals, by which time you might as well wait for the finals :-)
Chill out, guys. I got back from my road trip, wrote up the PR, realized I'd like to see FBH TvP *just once*, and decided to delay things for another couple days. There was never a deadline of the 1st of every month on the PR; I've always looked for natural stopping points. This is one of them. I have the opportunity to see if FBH can put up a decent showing against a top Protoss player, and I'm going to take it.
Personally, I'd rather have PR every month OR SO just because I would like it to be an accurate representation for the top 10 for as long as it can. Instead of largely guesswork, I think it is more important to get accuracy and a developed level of correctness.
On July 04 2007 11:42 DJEtterStyle wrote: Chill out, guys. I got back from my road trip, wrote up the PR, realized I'd like to see FBH TvP *just once*, and decided to delay things for another couple days. There was never a deadline of the 1st of every month on the PR; I've always looked for natural stopping points. This is one of them. I have the opportunity to see if FBH can put up a decent showing against a top Protoss player, and I'm going to take it.
On July 04 2007 07:06 VioleTAK wrote: Its not alright to wait for it, it would damage either Stork or FBH's proper rank as of the beginning of the month, if you wait, then wait till the 7th why not? and maybe if Stork loses both semi-finals (unlikely but anything is possible) then you can place him below top-5 when he deserved it 7 days ago as it should have been.
This is either a monthly PR, or a dynamic one, you can change it after every single matchup if you want, but as I understand its a monthly ranking. In the beginning of the month, FBH and Stork deserve something that they may not get 6 days afterwards. You can and should adjust that in the next month PR, not just wait for whatever matchup.
Of course, if for example FBH loses 0-3, then you can place him below GGPlay or sAviOr or whoever, because then you can they are both out of both leagues.. yeah duh, you can then say sAviOr was in both Ro8, but if FBH is out then sAviOr or Hwasin now has 'something on him', you can't just wait for any matchup a week afterward -_- If you wait for 1 semi-finals, when they are all X days apart in the same month, heck if you wait for FBH vs Stork and actually not wait for Iris vs Stork which is a single day after, you're doing FBH disservice, then might as well make a PR by the end of all semi-finals, by which time you might as well wait for the finals :-)
Anyway, waiting that long is't proper.
jesus chill out. there isnt any money riding on this thing.
On July 06 2007 04:54 VioleTAK wrote: Yeah well, waiting for those two semi finals was just a really bad decision, thats my opinion and I won't say any more about it I guess, its your PR.
Not really, 2 big games, i mean big games! Let's see what happens after these 2 games.