Sea - We go through this every couple of months. Sea plays fucking GREAT between leagues, and then plays like total ass once he's there. The retarded thing is, as soon as Sea was eliminated from OSL, he FUCKING BUTTFUCKED FUCKING JANGBI so badly in ProLeague it made me cringe. PLAY LIKE THAT IN OSL, SEA.
Lucifer - Yeahhhh, he's all right. He's in MSL, but he's gonna get fucked up by Jaedong. The reason Pure made the list and Lucifer didn't is simply because Lucifer doesn't look anywhere near as good as Pure. He's won a few games, but nothing about him particularily impresses me.
Firebathero - He's playing well too, but every time he runs into a protoss in a major league he loses. This hasn't changed in the past two years.
July - Well, people say July is looking pretty good. He's in the OSL round of 8, but let's not forget he only won 4 games to get there, and he's lost basically every other game he's played. Much gets in because he's through to the round of 8 in BOTH leagues, but July still looks shaky.
Stork - HA. Finally, Stork is gone. Four wins, four losses in May. No presence whatsoever in MSL, and barely scraped his way into tiebreakers in OSL after getting thoroughly embarassed by both Best and Jangbi. Goodbye Stork, hope its goodbye forever!
Hmm... about the only major thing I disagree with is Mind. I'd say despite not getting past Flash he's playing better than Hwasin and Kal I think (despite having a pretty bad record for the month- he's been facing tough opponents). Not sure if I'd rank him that high, but he probably should be a few slots higher. Maybe notch Hwasin below Kal because I doubt Hwasin could beat Kal if they met in the finals, but it'd probably be close.
I disagree with some of your placements, but the general jist I cant argue with. Personally id say much is far too high. He should be at 8, and thats being generous. Mind should be going down, Hwasin should be up high, im just not too sure they should be in the extremes you gave them. Pure is a bit of iffy point for me- theres been a few up and coming PL players, and pure is just as viable as anyone of them, so theres no argument there, but theres not much support either.
All in all a good Power rank, just could do with a few slot changes here and there.
Edit: Someone grant Pure a picture. If he has earned 10 in PR, he deserves a face!
Edit2: Actually there are a few commentaries I disagree with: Kal does pose a threat to best, and [as much as one as can be conceivable at the moment] Flash. Not sure about Jaedong, im not sure of the state of his vp at the moment. As for Hwasin: His vt seems to be top notch again, his vp is improving- but he has zero chance to even challenge Flash in a series, hes simply not a threat at the moment for him.
On June 06 2008 10:10 ScarFace wrote: I disagree with some of your placements, but the general jist I cant argue with. Personally id say much is far too high. He should be at 8, and thats being generous. Mind should be going down, Hwasin should be up high, im just not too sure they should be in the extremes you gave them. Pure is a bit of iffy point for me- theres been a few up and coming PL players, and pure is just as viable as anyone of them, so theres no argument there, but theres not much support either.
All in all a good Power rank, just could do with a few slot changes here and there.
Edit: Someone grant Pure a picture. If he has earned 10 in PR, he deserves a face!
Edit2: Actually there are a few commentaries I disagree with: Kal does pose a threat to best, and [as much as one as can be conceivable at the moment] Flash. Not sure about Jaedong, im not sure of the state of his vp at the moment. As for Hwasin: His vt seems to be top notch again, his vp is improving- but he has zero chance to even challenge Flash in a series, hes simply not a threat at the moment for him.
First, Pure gets the nod because of all the up-and-coming PL players with good records, only Pure is playing exceedingly well.
Second, Kal is mincemeat the moment he has to play any of the four players above him. That's why he's below them.
Best played nine games in May, and won every single fucking one.
Mind defeated Best in a PL game, which is also Mind's most notable win for the last month. edit- That is his only loss, but ignoring that, yes, he won all his other matches.
I don't think Kal is "mincemeat" against Hwasin. Hwasin's TvP went up a notch during WCG Korea, but he hasn't been nearly as dominant since (he even lost in Suvivor/ODT granted, it was against Protoss who are now on the power ranks these day). And he hasn't played very many games against Toss recently either. So I'd be feeling more than a little shaky about Hwasin. The good news for him is he's probably the strong favorite over Free and Much given their inconsistency.
The only thing I really take issue with is putting Mind so low in the list. For someone who beat the number 2 ranked player twice and the number 3 once...isn't that a bit low?
Mind didn't exactly have the best record in May, but if you look at his schedule you'll notice it pretty much looks like a Power Rank - he's just been grinding and grinding against all of the top players in the game, with no break.
I'd like to see him at spot number four, I'm not really sure that Hwasin has been remarkable enough to earn that position.
Otherwise nice job! Mad props for giving BeSt the credit he deserves...the best Protoss in the world damn straight.
I think the only reason Mind's up there is the competition he has to face constantly, Flash, Jaedong, Savior... I'd get worn out in a heartbeat if I'd have to keep facing those people
On June 06 2008 10:36 jwd241224 wrote: The only thing I really take issue with is putting Mind so low in the list. For someone who beat the number 2 ranked player twice and the number 3 once...isn't that a bit low?
Mind didn't exactly have the best record in May, but if you look at his schedule you'll notice it pretty much looks like a Power Rank - he's just been grinding and grinding against all of the top players in the game, with no break.
I'd like to see him at spot number four, I'm not really sure that Hwasin has been remarkable enough to earn that position.
Otherwise nice job! Mad props for giving BeSt the credit he deserves...the best Protoss in the world damn straight.
Well, I really adore Mind. He's my favourite new Terran, I even like him more than I like Flash. But, regardless of what I think about his play, he did just get knocked out of both leagues, and that hurts
On June 06 2008 10:10 ScarFace wrote: I disagree with some of your placements, but the general jist I cant argue with. Personally id say much is far too high. He should be at 8, and thats being generous. Mind should be going down, Hwasin should be up high, im just not too sure they should be in the extremes you gave them. Pure is a bit of iffy point for me- theres been a few up and coming PL players, and pure is just as viable as anyone of them, so theres no argument there, but theres not much support either.
All in all a good Power rank, just could do with a few slot changes here and there.
Edit: Someone grant Pure a picture. If he has earned 10 in PR, he deserves a face!
Edit2: Actually there are a few commentaries I disagree with: Kal does pose a threat to best, and [as much as one as can be conceivable at the moment] Flash. Not sure about Jaedong, im not sure of the state of his vp at the moment. As for Hwasin: His vt seems to be top notch again, his vp is improving- but he has zero chance to even challenge Flash in a series, hes simply not a threat at the moment for him.
First, Pure gets the nod because of all the up-and-coming PL players with good records, only Pure is playing exceedingly well.
Second, Kal is mincemeat the moment he has to play any of the four players above him. That's why he's below them.
First, I'm not arguing against Pure being on the PR.
Secondly, Kal is not mincemeat against Hwasin or Jaedong. Kal lost in the MSL finals but he did extremely well in game 2 and 3, and took game 1. Jaedong would obviously be the favorite, but he would not be 'mincemeat'. As to Hwasin, Kal would dominate him. In Hwasins last 10 tvp, he is 2-8, Kal is 6-5. He looked significantly better while he did it, and three of those losses were to great players. FORGG was on fire, and then he lost to mind and Flash. Completely understandable, and he actually held his own in all the games.
+I agree with you about Mind 0_0 +Best definetly deserves to be #3 or maybe #2 if he can beat Jaedong :D +in my opinion i dont think Hwasin does deserve #4 his good and all but his not really impressive in the proleagues +havent seen Kal do much lately..... +about time Nada is back :D +Sea.Pure is starting to be interesting :D
On June 06 2008 10:10 ScarFace wrote: I disagree with some of your placements, but the general jist I cant argue with. Personally id say much is far too high. He should be at 8, and thats being generous. Mind should be going down, Hwasin should be up high, im just not too sure they should be in the extremes you gave them. Pure is a bit of iffy point for me- theres been a few up and coming PL players, and pure is just as viable as anyone of them, so theres no argument there, but theres not much support either.
All in all a good Power rank, just could do with a few slot changes here and there.
Edit: Someone grant Pure a picture. If he has earned 10 in PR, he deserves a face!
Edit2: Actually there are a few commentaries I disagree with: Kal does pose a threat to best, and [as much as one as can be conceivable at the moment] Flash. Not sure about Jaedong, im not sure of the state of his vp at the moment. As for Hwasin: His vt seems to be top notch again, his vp is improving- but he has zero chance to even challenge Flash in a series, hes simply not a threat at the moment for him.
First, Pure gets the nod because of all the up-and-coming PL players with good records, only Pure is playing exceedingly well.
Second, Kal is mincemeat the moment he has to play any of the four players above him. That's why he's below them.
First, I'm not arguing against Pure being on the PR.
Secondly, Kal is not mincemeat against Hwasin or Jaedong. Kal lost in the MSL finals but he did extremely well in game 2 and 3, and took game 1. Jaedong would obviously be the favorite, but he would not be 'mincemeat'. As to Hwasin, Kal would dominate him. In Hwasins last 10 tvp, he is 2-8, Kal is 6-5. He looked significantly better while he did it, and three of those losses were to great players. FORGG was on fire, and then he lost to mind and Flash. Completely understandable, and he actually held his own in all the games.
You need to be more aware of players forms right this very moment, and put less emphasis on statistics. Hwasin would rape Kal at this very moment. I believe it'd be a close series, but Hwasin would undoubtedly come out on top.
On June 06 2008 10:10 ScarFace wrote: I disagree with some of your placements, but the general jist I cant argue with. Personally id say much is far too high. He should be at 8, and thats being generous. Mind should be going down, Hwasin should be up high, im just not too sure they should be in the extremes you gave them. Pure is a bit of iffy point for me- theres been a few up and coming PL players, and pure is just as viable as anyone of them, so theres no argument there, but theres not much support either.
All in all a good Power rank, just could do with a few slot changes here and there.
Edit: Someone grant Pure a picture. If he has earned 10 in PR, he deserves a face!
Edit2: Actually there are a few commentaries I disagree with: Kal does pose a threat to best, and [as much as one as can be conceivable at the moment] Flash. Not sure about Jaedong, im not sure of the state of his vp at the moment. As for Hwasin: His vt seems to be top notch again, his vp is improving- but he has zero chance to even challenge Flash in a series, hes simply not a threat at the moment for him.
First, Pure gets the nod because of all the up-and-coming PL players with good records, only Pure is playing exceedingly well.
Second, Kal is mincemeat the moment he has to play any of the four players above him. That's why he's below them.
First, I'm not arguing against Pure being on the PR.
Secondly, Kal is not mincemeat against Hwasin or Jaedong. Kal lost in the MSL finals but he did extremely well in game 2 and 3, and took game 1. Jaedong would obviously be the favorite, but he would not be 'mincemeat'. As to Hwasin, Kal would dominate him. In Hwasins last 10 tvp, he is 2-8, Kal is 6-5. He looked significantly better while he did it, and three of those losses were to great players. FORGG was on fire, and then he lost to mind and Flash. Completely understandable, and he actually held his own in all the games.
You need to be more aware of players forms right this very moment, and put less emphasis on statistics. Hwasin would rape Kal at this very moment. I believe it'd be a close series, but Hwasin would undoubtedly come out on top.
I don't just look at statistics, it was just an easy example. Hwasin has not played that many vp's lately, and hes only starting [read last two months or so] to come back into form. I would not throw him that much in consistency yet, especially in a match up hes historically been mediocre at [beyond brief periods of course].
Kal vs Flash is a good showing of Kals skill in pvt. Now, he got mangled. But everyone gets mangled against Flash. The very fact that Kal went 20+ minutes and threw back Flash's assaults numerous times shows hes strong in that match up, one of the best in fact. The same can not be said for Hwasin.
WOOOT PURE THE SKATER TOSS MADE IT TO PR!!!!! I love this kid, he plays like a champ sometimes and hes got damn nice lookin hair like a skater ^^. All 3 of the WeMade Fox Trio are up there this month!
Whoa, Hwasin was a surprise to me. I haven't watched many of his games recently, so I'll have to check them out. Otherwise I can't really argue with this PR except that Much should get some mention of his total badassery.
I actually agree, mostly. I'd put July over Lux b/c I wouldn't forgive selection mistakes (don't pick former OSL/MSL winners, folks~!); I'm suprisied that Much outranks anybody but he did win his tiebreaker over FBH in a convincing fashion but it looks like you didn't take those results into your writeup. He's been inconsistent as hell. I'm not a fan of the Hwsain option, but he took out Nada, so I guess it makes sense that he's ranked higher.
I think Mind is kind of low. You said yourself that he's a monster capable of annhilating anyone even if he doesn't always do so. My understanding is that PR is not a ranking of accomplishments, but an attempt to rank players based on skill. Even during this past month Mind has proven himself against all 3 races. A hiccup in forgetting siege, losing to Bisu in the only game that Bisu actually played like a 2 time champ in this month, and then getting stuck with Flash are what kept him out of leagues. Bad luck.
Meanwhile, Much has traded in luck, but his shabby 6-8 record has "earned" him a #6 spot. I fully appreciate the importance of major league events and I've always favored those games over PL (hence why Sea never meant that much to me even though his play almost always looks rock solid), but Much is playing like dogshit most of the time. I was a fan of Much when he was totally underrated, but right now I'm resentful that he's getting spots when other players who played better and had much worse luck are already out.
If it were just the record, I could understand Much's placement, but on top of everything he's traded in luck when he's not showing us his best. He looked so much more solid in January of this year. So, so, so much more so. When he loses, he gets trampled. Half his wins I'm embarrassed to say he won. Only yesterday's games made me feel more like "this is the Much I loved."
Lucifer should have been above Pure. It's easier to look good against worse players.
ForGG didn't even get CBNC? This kid is on fire right now. -_-;;
Interesting placement of Mind, I'm not sure where I would place him yet but I noted that. I do think fOrGG deserves a mention in CBNC, though.
On another note, since you've watched like fifty bajillion protoss games, do you really think Bisu's injury is what's dragging him down now? I haven't seen many of his games this month, so Im wondering if you think he's going the way of Storky-boy.
On June 06 2008 11:15 HaXxorIzed wrote: Interesting placement of Mind, I'm not sure where I would place him yet but I noted that. I do think fOrGG deserves a mention in CBNC, though.
On another note, since you've watched like fifty bajillion protoss games, do you really think Bisu's injury is what's dragging him down now? I haven't seen many of his games this month, so Im wondering if you think he's going the way of Storky-boy.
There's a significant drop in Bisu's play when he plays Zero, which is the first game he played with his injured hand. It probably has a mental impact on him as well, but there is definitely a noticable chance because of it.
forgg doesn't get a mention because forgg qualifies for shit every so often and then gets rolled when he has to play someone good. he's won a few games, yippee skippee. If he beats Sea, it won't be because he's playing particularily well himself. He's stayed pretty much constant, stagnating even, for like two years. He has great macro, terrible game sense, and sometimes it works out a bunch of times in a row. He isn't anything special and he's definitely not 'on the rise towards becoming a new and improved forgg'. He's still a one-dimensional player, and I don't put filler on the Power Rank.
On June 06 2008 11:10 Mortality wrote: I have a few bones to pick with this list.
I think Mind is kind of low. You said yourself that he's a monster capable of annhilating anyone even if he doesn't always do so. My understanding is that PR is not a ranking of accomplishments, but an attempt to rank players based on skill. Even during this past month Mind has proven himself against all 3 races. A hiccup in forgetting siege, losing to Bisu in the only game that Bisu actually played like a 2 time champ in this month, and then getting stuck with Flash are what kept him out of leagues. Bad luck.
Well, I see where you're coming from. You and I seem to put different levels of importance on certain things. Mind is a player who can beat anyone at any time. As such, when he's given two leagues to play in, I fully expect him to move past the round of 16 in at least one. The Power Rank is about displaying your skill as much as it is about having that skill to begin with. That's why Sea gets the boot when he starts playing bad. Mind isn't playing bad, but all the players above him have had more favorable results under the same circumstances. As far as Much is concerned, let's not forget how Mind got eliminated from OSL!
Meanwhile, Much has traded in luck, but his shabby 6-8 record has "earned" him a #6 spot. I fully appreciate the importance of major league events and I've always favored those games over PL (hence why Sea never meant that much to me even though his play almost always looks rock solid), but Much is playing like dogshit most of the time. I was a fan of Much when he was totally underrated, but right now I'm resentful that he's getting spots when other players who played better and had much worse luck are already out.
These are good points, but again we seem to put different levels of importance on different things. Much has been awful in games that don't really matter, but he's made the round of 8 in both leagues by playing excellently in must-win situations.
Lucifer should have been above Pure. It's easier to look good against worse players.
Absolutely not. Lucifer is clever and aggressive, but Pure is a much better player. Lucifer's games don't look gimmicky to anyone else? Pure wins through mechanics and strong game sense, he's comparable to Best but not presently as respectable. Lucifer doesn't even compare.
ForGG didn't even get CBNC? This kid is on fire right now. -_-;;
"ForGG is on fire" is an oxymoron. This kid doesn't have win streaks, he has a bunch of coincidental victories in a row.
Free didn't even get CBNC? He's hot right now.
Free is fucking terrible. He's worse than Stork for christ's sake. Maybe when he gets further than the round of 8 in any league ever, he'll be Power Rank material. Seriously, you think a victory over fucking Light is justification for a Power Rank spot? Light is TERRIBLE.
On June 06 2008 11:40 ScarFace wrote: does anyone know why there are so many sea's? SeaUp, Sea, Sea.really, sea.pure...is it a clan or does it have a particular meaning?
Sea is a clan, but Sea[Shield] is in Shield clan.
UpMagic is in Sea clan, Pure is in Sea clan, really is as well.
Good stuff, Id probably put mind a bit higher and hwasin a bit lower, and probably switch out pure with lucifer. I dont know why but I get the feeling that Pure may well lose to any random player at any given time, wheareas I see Lucifer past that point, but just not yet good enough to face Jaedong and the likes. But I guess we'll see that next MSL/OSL seasons...
I can't fathom why all of you are fellating Lucifer. He's NOT that good! He's gimmicky as hell. He has very, very run of the mill mechanics and game sense. What he does have going for him are clever and inventive build orders, and great micro.
Yesterday I watched every single game Lucifer and Pure played last month. Pure looks like a dynamic, powerful new player. Lucifer looks like a second-tier putz who just happened to have a little streak of wins. No one would ask for Ruby on the Power Rank, would they? Of course not.
I guess we look for different things while gauging players, but I still get the feeling that Pure has more to prove than Lucifer has.. looking at May he beat Nada and Kal whom both are on the list, whereas Pure beat basically none of interest... as for fellating Lucifer... well he is in KTF so, perhaps that would get one closer to Reach <3
I don't even think that Much has played that excellently when it mattered. Bisu's hand injury showed in the game against Much more than Much shined. Mind forgot fucking siege mode. Then drawing FBH who's known for bad TvP when other players favored to advance get stuck with hard opponents (cough* Nada *cough* Mind *cough) in MSL was a godsend. I'll admit it -- I was surprised by how much more solid FBH's TvP is than before, and I'll admit that Much shined yesterday, but that's basically it. He's looked terrible the rest of the time.
Oh, you did not just compare Pure to Best. Don't even go there. A PL only player who isn't even facing a terribly hard roster just cannot be compared. And didn't Anytime seem gimmicky? Ra and Garimto to some extent seemed gimmicky too.Lucifer's performance this month has just been better, at least to my eyes. Yesterday I was arguing with Phradamon because he insisted that Lucifer's crazy style made him better than Best, but today I'll argue with you that it doesn't make him worse than Pure. I realized that long ago when Pusan went nowhere compared to Anytime (and at the time I argued for Pusan).
Spekaing of Anytime, he and Bisu are the only two good palyers Pure has faced this month and Bisu pulled the win despite his bad hands right now. Anytime, however, got 2-0'd, though how much of that is due to Anytime's slump and how much is due to Pure's skill is unclear since I saw neither of those games (but if you hand that to Pure's skill, hand Free's win over Anytime to Free's skill too--).
You seem biased against forgg. His TvP is ridiculous, his TvZ has always been pretty good, and now he's starting to string together "coincidental victories" in TvT too. Players can change. Much was basically considered a nobody by almost everyone until mid 2007.
Free is not terrible. He may be boring, but he isn't terrible. His PvP is looking rock solid and his PvT is doing pretty damn good too. I don't care about his wins against Light, but Mind, Much and Jangbi are pretty big wins.
I'm with mort on this one, gotta say. Creativity is just as important as Mechanics. Lucifers creativity has given him more impressive wins over more impressive opponents, seems clear cut to me.
Is this is this argument even worth anything? Like, would FS even conceivably be convinced and edit the PR, or are we just wasting our time?
gimmicky as hell is good for protoss steve stork obviously has about 10x the mechanics of lucifer, but stork plays predictably while lucifer plays like a foreign toss. guess whos winning more games atm.
Ballsy list. I'm a little disappointed you didn't include Lomo in CBNC. Do you think he's not worth watching or has he just not played enough to prove himself yet? I would never have ranked Mind as low as you did, but sighed sadly and nodded when I saw.
On June 06 2008 12:02 o[twist] wrote: Ballsy list. I'm a little disappointed you didn't include Lomo in CBNC. Do you think he's not worth watching or has he just not played enough to prove himself yet? I would never have ranked Mind as low as you did, but sighed sadly and nodded when I saw.
I'll admit Lomo has improved, and his last few wins have been impressive. But really, its such a short burst, do you really feel he's worthy to be mentioned after the ten best players on the planet? He's gotta improve a little more before that will happen, but yeah, I'm watching him.
And yes, it pained me as well to put Mind so low, but you just can't get to the ro16 in both leagues and then get eliminated horribly.
It's a real shame Mind is out of both leagues ... there's only two players out there I'd put my money on playing against Jaedong right now, and that's Flash and Mind.
In a BO5 I'd take Mind over anybody except Flash (obviously) and possibly Jaedong/Best but Mind's shown that he can beat both of those guys, and in CONVINCING fashion at that. Too bad Mind isn't getting to the BO5 stage (or even the BO3 stage except against indestructible Flash) any time soon.
I remember back in the day when people said Light was headed someplace, lulz. That said, I definitely need to look at Bisu's OSL games post-win-over-mind and his proleauge games, to see how Bisu's play has been affected.
Also, I am pleased to see someone isn't buying into the Lucifer hype.
On June 06 2008 12:08 HaXxorIzed wrote: I remember back in the day when people said Light was headed someplace, lulz. That said, I definitely need to look at Bisu's OSL games post-win-over-mind and his proleauge games, to see how Bisu's play has been affected.
Also, I am pleased to see someone isn't buying into the Lucifer hype.
Sometimes that oldschool sensibility just has to take over. We can't be cumming about every single flash in the pan, or the Power Rank wouldn't make any damn sense at all.
I think Much should have had his #6 spot last month (he only lost a single game that month, showing a better record than some of the people on the list at the time). This month his wins haven't been as convincing as I'd like, but #6 is fine this time around; like you said, he's made both leagues Ro8, and thats better than nearly every other player on the list. If he shows some of his brilliance from proleague last season, CJ might actually not suck as bad as they have been and Much might even move up to top5 or higher on this ranking. I hope he does too.
And as a side point: Personality has to count at least a little. I mean come on, how could ANYONE deny heart-Protoss his time in the spot light?! I've had his name in my sig since I first started watching him play, and now I'm glad others may be joining me as a Much fan!
As for the rest of the list.. I'd have a hard time disagreeing with some of the choices, but thats for good reason. It really feels to me that anyone below 3rd place this month is a toss up based on what one person values over another (staying power, recent results, recent form and competition level, individual league success, proleague success, etc.).
First, the top 3. Take a look at the current ELO rankings for TLPD... Flash is just clearly the hottest, Jaedong is clearly second, and Best is clearly third.. its non-negotiable. In every aspect of success I just listed, all three of these players are clearly a cut above the rest.
But taking a look at the rest, it really is just so much closer between every player. Honestly, if you threw 4 through 9 in a quick tourney/ladder/whatever, you would have to be stupid to think any single one of them wouldn't be a contender for 1st (Not to say Pure isn't an up and coming player worthy of his spot; its just that he hasn't had enough games and I definitely haven't seen enough of them to include him with confidence). But once you throw in ANY of the top 3, suddenly a favorite for the thing is inevitable. This really has been the state of progaming ever since Jaedong took over. Flash quickly stepped over him (but not too far) to hold the crown for the Terran race, and BeSt seems to be knocking on that door as the Protoss representative trying to show us that Bisu wasn't a fluke and the Protoss deserve their champion. Then come the second tier competitors, each strong enough in their own right to take some shots at the top 3, but none showing that they have been able to so far. Each definitely having the potential to join the top 3, but not realizing that potential just yet.
Of course, there is a tier below these players, full of the newer and bench roster, the slumpers and steady fighters. I think you did a pretty good job of picking the 7 that stand above these players and I'm not sure I have any additions for CBNC either. Overall, I think I agree with this PR more than last month (as I seem to value a lot of the things you do) but I can see why there is some contention. Some of these players are just really close. Anyways, good PR this month!
It's okay lucifer.....maybe next time...another lee young ho went through the difficult trials of getting recognized by the powerrank. Rise to the challenge and take down the "other best player on the planet"! Anyways, great pr.
Even though I dislike Mind, I still think he deserves a higher spot. He's beat Jaedong very recently and barely lost to Flash. In terms of skill, I think he deserves a top 4.
On June 06 2008 11:59 IdrA wrote: gimmicky as hell is good for protoss steve stork obviously has about 10x the mechanics of lucifer, but stork plays predictably while lucifer plays like a foreign toss. guess whos winning more games atm.
Exactly, you'd think people would learn this from watching Kang Min all these years! Is anyone surprised that Lucifer seems to be his protege with that style of play?
If anything, Lucifer seems to be the protoss with the most potential. We have how many P's playing like they're gods right now? Only one of them really stands out from the rest in more than a 'I can win a little bit more than you' fashion, and it's Lucifer. It's not coincidence he's still alive in a league right now while Pure hasn't been through into any league in his longer pro career.
I doubt he'll beat Jaedong, because I don't think anyone is beating Jaedong in this MSL, but I seriously don't see how people can bash his play. I think Flash's early wins were more gimmicky than Lucifer's, honestly, and look where he's at.
he does not have the most potential, not at all. its far easier to learn to play gay than it is to actually become a good player. its a wonder more protosses dont do it. also, lucifer's style play only takes you so far now, given everyone elses mechanical perfection. he may string together wins in proleague, but i would be suprised if he ever makes it anywhere in a starleague bo3/bo5 series'.
I agree with IdrA, but I also want to add that it might be too early to tell.
A style like Lucifer's generally becomes a slippery slope because once you've started winning through creativity rather than sheer skills you can sometimes lose the drive to improve your mechanics, or worse, feel obliged to continue playing that way in order to meet the expectations of the audience. I would loooove to see Lucifer all-round massively buff up his game sense and macro and combine that with his creativity to become a boxeresque type of player. Until then, I will continue to cheer for him because he's fun to watch both during his matches and after he wins. The power rank though, is certainly not about the player who can dish out the most entertainment.
Mind needs to be higher, Nada shouldn't be there. The past 10 games Nada won 4, thats kinda ok.. Stork won 5 games out of the past 10 he played. I know people hate stork, but imho he deserves a spot up in the list especially if you can put someone like Nada up there. Just for comparison FBH made 7 victories out of the past 10 games he played and he's still not on the list, using the excuse FBH has a retarded TvP isnt valid considering Nada lost 4 times to terran players which proves his current TvT is bad too.
Still good writeup, I couldn't have done a better job myself so I should just stfu now.
On June 06 2008 16:50 dinmsab wrote: Mind needs to be higher, Nada shouldn't be there. The past 10 games Nada won 4, thats kinda ok.. Stork won 5 games out of the past 10 he played. I know people hate stork, but imho he deserves a spot up in the list especially if you can put someone like Nada up there. Just for comparison FBH made 7 victories out of the past 10 games he played and he's still not on the list, using the excuse FBH has a retarded TvP isnt valid considering Nada lost 4 times to terran players which proves his current TvT is bad too.
Still good writeup, I couldn't have done a better job myself so I should just stfu now.
I think the idea is to look at the quality of the games as much or even more than the result of the games. NaDa looked impressive even during games he lost (i.e. vs Best).
Mind is a strong player but he just chokes randomly against players we all know he can beat, for some reason; it's not even about a slump because the next minute he'll just come roaring back to beat Jaedong and Best. That kind of inconsistency will nail him a high ranking when he does well, and a low ranking when he does poorly, and he did quite poorly overall this month. Yes he is a strong player, but his games don't match up with his skills. Besides, we can't just evaluate players based on their full potential, otherwise Bisu would be on this PR according to that one game versus Mind.
So there it is, the first PR without Bisu...it has been a long time but damn- it is deserved. Anyway, thank you Steve for the great job and especially for : 1. Putting Mind in the bottom of the table. (Mind sux nowadays) 2. Not putting Lucifer in the PR (enough of KTF fanboysm) and ofc 3. BEST FOR #3 SPOT
ForGG definitely still has potential, especially since he's improving his TvT as we speak. There's no need to put him down as stagnant.
The spots from 6-8 could be shuffled without anyone complaining, but the current arrangement is pretty good. I was going to argue that Mind and Much should switch places, but then I remembered who's still in the leagues and who isn't. Even so, if I had to choose one of those two to play Best or Jaedong, it'd have to be Mind. Even if he's out for this season, he's fixed up his TvZ, which will pay off far more in the future.
On June 06 2008 16:16 Juicyfruit wrote: I agree with IdrA, but I also want to add that it might be too early to tell.
A style like Lucifer's generally becomes a slippery slope because once you've started winning through creativity rather than sheer skills you can sometimes lose the drive to improve your mechanics, or worse, feel obliged to continue playing that way in order to meet the expectations of the audience.
In short, Lucifer could end up becoming the next Upmagic =(
On June 06 2008 16:16 Juicyfruit wrote: I agree with IdrA, but I also want to add that it might be too early to tell.
A style like Lucifer's generally becomes a slippery slope because once you've started winning through creativity rather than sheer skills you can sometimes lose the drive to improve your mechanics, or worse, feel obliged to continue playing that way in order to meet the expectations of the audience. I would loooove to see Lucifer all-round massively buff up his game sense and macro and combine that with his creativity to become a boxeresque type of player. Until then, I will continue to cheer for him because he's fun to watch both during his matches and after he wins. The power rank though, is certainly not about the player who can dish out the most entertainment.
What evidence is that based on?
Y'know, back in the day, Nal_ra had like 140 apm and wasn't particularly known for micro. I actually thought his control was somewhat sloppy the first time I ever saw him play (was it 2001? 2002? It was reps of Ra vs Boxer on Snowbound I think). Definitely if you made a comparison, Kingdom and Reach had better mechanics. Yet, Ra became the most accomplished of those 3. Is Lucifer Ra? No, and I don't think he'll climb all the way to the top like Best. However, I think we can expect good things out of him, possibly as far as Ro4 (probably NEXT season since I doubt JD will lose). 32 man tournaments just do not favor gimmicky type players, who need to display a few too many of their tricks early on. In the past, creative Protoss players have done just as well as mechanically driven Protoss players.
Regarding Best, a prediction: he will win OSL. I was already thinking this last PR, that he would win it and I should have made my "bold prediction" then, but I chickened out because he did not look quite so unbeatable and he still has not truly proven himself vs Zerg.
Completetly agree with the PR this time , except maybe Mind over Nada . I like what you've written about JD , but i fear that Hwasin may stop his second MSL victory cold if JD doesn't polish up his ZvT skills to be as good as last seasons , or even better .
On June 06 2008 16:16 Juicyfruit wrote: I agree with IdrA, but I also want to add that it might be too early to tell.
A style like Lucifer's generally becomes a slippery slope because once you've started winning through creativity rather than sheer skills you can sometimes lose the drive to improve your mechanics, or worse, feel obliged to continue playing that way in order to meet the expectations of the audience. I would loooove to see Lucifer all-round massively buff up his game sense and macro and combine that with his creativity to become a boxeresque type of player. Until then, I will continue to cheer for him because he's fun to watch both during his matches and after he wins. The power rank though, is certainly not about the player who can dish out the most entertainment.
What evidence is that based on?
Y'know, back in the day, Nal_ra had like 140 apm and wasn't particularly known for micro. I actually thought his control was somewhat sloppy the first time I ever saw him play (was it 2001? 2002? It was reps of Ra vs Boxer on Snowbound I think). Definitely if you made a comparison, Kingdom and Reach had better mechanics. Yet, Ra became the most accomplished of those 3. Is Lucifer Ra? No, and I don't think he'll climb all the way to the top like Best. However, I think we can expect good things out of him, possibly as far as Ro4 (probably NEXT season since I doubt JD will lose). 32 man tournaments just do not favor gimmicky type players, who need to display a few too many of their tricks early on. In the past, creative Protoss players have done just as well as mechanically driven Protoss players.
Regarding Best, a prediction: he will win OSL. I was already thinking this last PR, that he would win it and I should have made my "bold prediction" then, but I chickened out because he did not look quite so unbeatable and he still has not truly proven himself vs Zerg.
Replace the word "generally" with the word "potentially". It was badly put, I admit. Actually, I just don't have evidence on hand due to my lack of knowledge of old players, but there are probably some. What I said wasn't that insensible. I think that's what you were on about, since the rest was just my opinion.
Also, I'm not sure but doesn't the evolution of starcraft ultimately disfavor creativity? Mechanics build upon itself from one generation to another, and therefore players in general have better mechanics than before simply more efficient methods of micro/macro/BO etc have been discovered over the years. Creativity, on the other hand, doesn't benefit from the same progression.
Creativity makes your playstyle unpredictable. Plus, if you are well-known for being creative, it might make your opponents paranoid and thus give you an extra edge. However, you still need the proper mechanics to
1) carry out your creative play properly 2) to actually be able to take down your opponent after acquiring whatever advantage gained from your creative play.
Afaik, Lucifer's mechanics aren't horrible, they just aren't stellar. Therefore, his creativity can help him win consistently against opponents of similar mechanics because he gains that edge over them.
I do agree with you that creativity is as much a part of a player's strength as their mechanics. Creativity can translate into results, and I would hate it to be shrugged off completely in such that players are ranked entirely based on their mechanics only.
Ok, first off, You place Mind THAT low?? Oo He is without doubt better than both Hwasin and Nada, cuz these two cant even come close to Flash, while Mind rampage around in endless battles with flash. Do you have some kind of hatered towards Mind? I mean, I know he has been loosing couple of games, but to put Nada and Hwasin above him? Just dont see them winning against Mind yet, so i completly disagree with that one. Just look at Minds wins over Jaedong, you keep Jaedong (who played vs easy opponents all month) and then ditch Mind and place him 8th??(who btw lost 3 times vs Flash during the last month) And Much, seriously? You will see next month, next step in every league and proleague that Much will play worse than the newcommers like Lucifer and Pure. He has never shown any kind of intresting games, just boring dull and failed ever since his name became known. I despise the fact that you are a fanboy of both Sea and Much, place them high on PR after couple of games where you see hope again, get real! The fact is that they fail over and over again! Seas placement on PR last month was just silly. And the fact that he is out now, shows how horrible he is! Much will be gone as fast as he entered. Unless these two acomplish anything or stay stable, i wont give them the least credit. But your not hesitating jumping them up from nowhere to a high PR spot.
Tho I however was suprised to see Hwasin on 4th, he has shown some strenght, deserved PR, yes! but 4th? LOL! But still Nada, Hwasin and Much cannot really be placed this high, unless they have played vs stronger opponents like the top 4 (Flash, Best, Jaedong and Mind) Win counts doesnt matter, however vs who and how does matter! I dont get it! They played vs crappy opponents, lost vs the better players, even vs newcommers like Lucifer should be placed above these on PR. Get Lucifer IN! Lomo IN! Mind higher! Rest, whatever! To many ppl hold on to old players lost skillz and dont realize that the future belongs to the rising stars!
On June 06 2008 12:37 menewb wrote: Ehh, What about Backho, the guy put Bisu, Jaedong and Casy out of OSL... He should deserve some credits despite what people might say about him...
I hope this guy is joking. Anyway, nice PR; although it pains me to see Mind so low, I understand why you put him there.
It's amazing to see the amount of people that are now saying Mind should surely be up there and higher even, considering the shitstorm of derogatory comments there was about him when he took the MSL. Not that I don't agree, the guy is like an atomic clock when it comes to timing and I certainly like watching his games. Especially since he gets pitted against the cream of the crop all the time. Nice PR on the whole, also nice to see Much up there - if anything, his performance against Mr. Pelvic Thrust yesterday justifies this.
On June 06 2008 23:54 tre2ettsexsju wrote: Damn can someone stop Flash already! He's way too good right now =/ JD fighting! oh PS can someone tell me what game made FBH cry? -_-
Jangbi not being on CBNC even before his most recent games is a joke. In my opinion, Hwasin too high, Much too high, Pure should not be ranked, Mind too low. Everything else seems pretty decent.
Nada is out of the MSL, gets knocked out of the OSL by Jangbi and is on a five game loosing streak but somehow gets 7'th place over Mind and Luxury while Jangbi gets CNBC.
On June 07 2008 03:49 TheTyranid wrote: Nada is out of the MSL, gets knocked out of the OSL by Jangbi and is on a five game loosing streak but somehow gets 7'th place over Mind and Luxury while Jangbi gets CNBC.
With all due respect, this rank is BS.
I shouldn't have to warn someone who's been here as long as you, but here goes:
You do not fucking come into the power rank comments and just post 'this pr is bullshit'. If you want to contribute to the discussion, that's all well and good. You do not just come in here and shit the place up.
Ok I'll contribute. Nada is too high. How can you give 7'th to someone who is on a 5 game loosing streak? Nada is 7-8 for the month of May with wins over GF, Shark, Jaehoon, Boxer, Jangbi, Piano, and Hwasin. Only 2 of those players, Jangbi and Hwasin are high caliber at this period. His 8 losses all came from high caliber players including Lucifer and I am not convinced that Nada is one of those players. Anytime can noob bash in Proleague just as well as Nada however I do not see him on the 5'th spot for the PR nor have I seen him that high last PL season. Unlike him Nada has made both leagues but has failed in the ro16 of both. He qualified for them by beating Spear, Savior, Shark, and Jaehoon, NOT an overly difficult task. He dropped games to Best and Lucifer in the qualifiers. The bottom line for Nada is that he has surely been playing better than before and while he wins consistently, he is not good enough to compere with the best players at this moment. Why does someone who passed 2 SL qualifiers beating mediocre players get 7'th spot? Over Mind and Lux if I may add?
What about much? What made him deserve 6'th place? Ok he did win where it counts as you said. He is 0-5 in proleague with his team in teh bottom ranks but he has advanced to the ro8 in both leagues with all his wins this month in individual leagues. I'd say this is a PR deserving accomplishment even considering his abysmal proleague preformance and overall slump from a couple months before. But 6'th place?
edit: the thing I am most concerned about is the placing of Much and Nada over Mind and Luxury. I understand that Nada and Much are on an upswing while Mind and Lux are on a bit of a downfall; well Luxury isn't anymore since he is on a 7 game win streak. You said you take into account the comparison of players' previous shapes to their current ones in deciding the PR but Mind and Lux are still playing better than Nada and Much.
Anyways this is how these players should be ranked.
6. Luxury. He has the advantage of being in the OSL and is on a 7 game win streak. His wins have note been against the cream of the crop, similarily to Nada, but since they have been his latest games I believe Luxury is starting to upswing and will have a great OSL run.
7. Much is playing worse than Mind, and I'd say that if Mind and Much faced off in PL or hypothetically met in a Starleague, Mind would be the heavy favourite. Much has though, and immense advantage over Mind since he is in both Starleagues and Mind is eliminated from both Starleagues. Much will play more games in June and thus will be able to show more potential. I do mot believe he will go far in either league but I cannot say for certain.
8. Mind is out of both leagues failing both ro16 (like Sea). He is 9-8 in May and has won 2 games over Jaedong. However he is 2-5 in his last 7 games and that coupled with the ro16 exit from both leagues is a big downfall for a player who was so hot just a while ago.
9. Nada is out of both leagues as well failing both ro16 (like Sea). He has a worse record in may than Mind, he has played and won against weaker opponents than Mind. Overall I believe Nada does not have the same potential as Mind. The only thing that he did better than Mind is his play in the round of 16 however the 5 game loosing streak has me concerned. He was leading 1-0 against Hwasin and was 1-1 in the OSL. He dropped 2 games t Hwasin and has gone 0-3 in his last 3 OSL games. I believe his gameplay is starting to drop again and that he does not have as much potential as Mind in the future.
On June 06 2008 16:16 Juicyfruit wrote: I agree with IdrA, but I also want to add that it might be too early to tell.
A style like Lucifer's generally becomes a slippery slope because once you've started winning through creativity rather than sheer skills you can sometimes lose the drive to improve your mechanics, or worse, feel obliged to continue playing that way in order to meet the expectations of the audience. I would loooove to see Lucifer all-round massively buff up his game sense and macro and combine that with his creativity to become a boxeresque type of player. Until then, I will continue to cheer for him because he's fun to watch both during his matches and after he wins. The power rank though, is certainly not about the player who can dish out the most entertainment.
What evidence is that based on?
Y'know, back in the day, Nal_ra had like 140 apm and wasn't particularly known for micro. I actually thought his control was somewhat sloppy the first time I ever saw him play (was it 2001? 2002? It was reps of Ra vs Boxer on Snowbound I think). Definitely if you made a comparison, Kingdom and Reach had better mechanics. Yet, Ra became the most accomplished of those 3. Is Lucifer Ra? No, and I don't think he'll climb all the way to the top like Best. However, I think we can expect good things out of him, possibly as far as Ro4 (probably NEXT season since I doubt JD will lose). 32 man tournaments just do not favor gimmicky type players, who need to display a few too many of their tricks early on. In the past, creative Protoss players have done just as well as mechanically driven Protoss players.
Regarding Best, a prediction: he will win OSL. I was already thinking this last PR, that he would win it and I should have made my "bold prediction" then, but I chickened out because he did not look quite so unbeatable and he still has not truly proven himself vs Zerg.
Replace the word "generally" with the word "potentially". It was badly put, I admit. Actually, I just don't have evidence on hand due to my lack of knowledge of old players, but there are probably some. What I said wasn't that insensible. I think that's what you were on about, since the rest was just my opinion.
Also, I'm not sure but doesn't the evolution of starcraft ultimately disfavor creativity? Mechanics build upon itself from one generation to another, and therefore players in general have better mechanics than before simply more efficient methods of micro/macro/BO etc have been discovered over the years. Creativity, on the other hand, doesn't benefit from the same progression.
Creativity makes your playstyle unpredictable. Plus, if you are well-known for being creative, it might make your opponents paranoid and thus give you an extra edge. However, you still need the proper mechanics to
1) carry out your creative play properly 2) to actually be able to take down your opponent after acquiring whatever advantage gained from your creative play.
Afaik, Lucifer's mechanics aren't horrible, they just aren't stellar. Therefore, his creativity can help him win consistently against opponents of similar mechanics because he gains that edge over them.
I do agree with you that creativity is as much a part of a player's strength as their mechanics. Creativity can translate into results, and I would hate it to be shrugged off completely in such that players are ranked entirely based on their mechanics only.
True and not true.
Creative players go in and out of success depending on who they play. Ra did well against Nada, but his butt was sore after almost every single encounter with Oov. Gimmicks work better against players who are more predictable. Nada's mechanics and sense of star are better than Oov's, I think, but Oov's sense of builds and his ability to get in his opponent's head were better.
-At this level, everyone has such great mechanics that being a gimmicky player is BETTER against mechanical players than strategic ones. If you don't do as good a job seeing the gimmicks coming, you lose to them more surely.
-There are gimmicky players who have created entirely new builds and they will run ideas. There are also gimmicky players who are great at recycling old ideas and so long as they keep their choices unpredictable, the opponent still won't know what's coming.
-The key that defines a gimmicky player as successful is his sense for how his opponent will respond to the gimmick. He doesn't need a great sense of star so long as he can make his opponent fall for a gimmick. Lucifer seems good at that, though comparing him to Ra as Phradamon was doing a couple days ago is WAAAAAAAAAAAY too premature.
Regardless of how Lucifer turns out, I predict that he won't fair well against Flash if they ever face in an important bo3 or bo5 event. But while most of you will go "no shit Sherlock" and think something like "he's Flash you fucking retard," the reason why is nothing like that. It's because Flash, like Oov and Savior in their primes, excels at mind games. Boxer, Nada, Bisu, Ra,... none of them were really like that. They had great strategies and nice gimmicks, but Oov was in your head before the match had even begun (using his interviews). Flash has proven to be like that too.
as a hwasin fan, im glad to see him at 4th but i dont think he deserved that spot. sea.pure is an interesting choice, but i think i would have put jangbi up there jangbi is looking very strong nowadays
Luxury is not playing that well -- 9th place is the highest I would conceive of giving him. It's easy to look good when you're playing Stats and Rumble and Memory instead of Best and Jaedong and Flash.
On June 06 2008 20:18 ThePhan2m wrote: Ok, first off, You place Mind THAT low?? Oo He is without doubt better than both Hwasin and Nada, cuz these two cant even come close to Flash, while Mind rampage around in endless battles with flash. Do you have some kind of hatered towards Mind? I mean, I know he has been loosing couple of games, but to put Nada and Hwasin above him? Just dont see them winning against Mind yet, so i completly disagree with that one. Just look at Minds wins over Jaedong, you keep Jaedong (who played vs easy opponents all month) and then ditch Mind and place him 8th??(who btw lost 3 times vs Flash during the last month) And Much, seriously? You will see next month, next step in every league and proleague that Much will play worse than the newcommers like Lucifer and Pure. He has never shown any kind of intresting games, just boring dull and failed ever since his name became known. I despise the fact that you are a fanboy of both Sea and Much, place them high on PR after couple of games where you see hope again, get real! The fact is that they fail over and over again! Seas placement on PR last month was just silly. And the fact that he is out now, shows how horrible he is! Much will be gone as fast as he entered. Unless these two acomplish anything or stay stable, i wont give them the least credit. But your not hesitating jumping them up from nowhere to a high PR spot.
Tho I however was suprised to see Hwasin on 4th, he has shown some strenght, deserved PR, yes! but 4th? LOL! But still Nada, Hwasin and Much cannot really be placed this high, unless they have played vs stronger opponents like the top 4 (Flash, Best, Jaedong and Mind) Win counts doesnt matter, however vs who and how does matter! I dont get it! They played vs crappy opponents, lost vs the better players, even vs newcommers like Lucifer should be placed above these on PR. Get Lucifer IN! Lomo IN! Mind higher! Rest, whatever! To many ppl hold on to old players lost skillz and dont realize that the future belongs to the rising stars!
Seems pretty solid argument to me. Overall the PR wasn't too bad this month, but Mind so low and Hwasin and Nada so high seems wrong to me
On June 07 2008 05:09 Darkmole wrote: o wow so many people calling this PR bs 0_0 i just disagree with 4 players on PR thats it, but im not calling this PR bs
If you look more carefully, not so many people are just saying "this PR is BS." Fakesteve clearly did his HW. A lot of us are arguing points about specific players.
But, a lot of this is also calling into question what it means to be on PR. Is it enough to just do well in majors and suck elsewhere? Is losing 1-2 but making your opponents play amazing well (like Nada and Mind) worth more or less than winning 2-1 with sloppy games? How do we compare stats to individual performances? How do we extrapolate for players who dominate easy rosters (Pure, Luxury) versus players who go even against the hardest rosters known to man (Mind)? How do we rate totally unproven players who storm onto the scene (Lucifer, Pure)?
A lot of this is subjective and there really aren't any answers that everyone will agree with.
In my mind, PR means this: if every progamer played every other progamer in a bo5 with everything on the line ->right now<-, who would the top 10 performers be? That's my notion of the best. Steve seems to be trying more to do "who is going the furthest right now?" These philosophies will produce similar lists because the best players will go the furthest, but are fundamentally different in organization.
I favor consistency and so longer term statistics tend to play a role in my decision making process. I also judge by consistency of the invidivual games. A player who wins 50% and rapes when he wins and pushes his opponent hard when he loses is better than a player who wins 60% and struggles to win against good opponents and often gets raped when he loses. I do favor major leagues because more is at stake in those games, more practice is done for those games, and also you get PL-only phenomenon where youngsters not in leagues will practice hard for their matches and do well or a team will form a battery where players are assigned 1-2 maps and they consistently pull home wins just on those maps. That's why I haven't jumped all-in for 815 since he needs to play more games that aren't on Blue Storm or Katrina before I can judge him. While I favor majors greatly, a player who fails to deliver in PL is also a no-no since it calls into question the player's absolute skill.
Steve's way of looking at things is different in that he cares most about winning the games that matter. You can afford to look like shit on occasion so long as you deliver in the games most important to you. That's probably a large part of why Lucifer was not given the nod - JD raped him so hard it wasn't funny and that was by far Lucifer's most important game. Pulling a cheese over Nada to get there doesn't give Steve the impression that Lucifer could have delivered in a drawn out series. I disagree with that since I think Lucifer has been showing a tremendous ability to always come up with a good plan to win the game and getting raped once by JD doesn't change that. Much also gets rated highly because even if luck was undeniably on his side, he's managed to pull through in 6 of his 9 most important games. I, however, have been looking at Much's luck factor and shakiness and asking, "Is this the really the same Much that looked so impressive in the past?" The only reason Steve rated Mind and Nada was because of the difficulty of their opponents. The reason I rated them is because they've looked capable of throwing down with basically anyone.
Lomo should not be on the PR. He is good vs Z and good vs T but he sucks ass vs P. He was lucky enough to get lots of T and Z opponents lately, but as soon as he faces a halfway decent toss, he will get buttraped from here to the moon.
On June 07 2008 14:21 fusionsdf wrote: I meant to mention this earlier, but Im really glad pure got a spot
he deserved it
I remember jangbi being absolutely dominant last month, but his stats dont show it
hmmm
He actually has a pretty good proleague record. I think he deserves a spot for sure. I think Steve just overlooked him. Might want to edit the CBNC section and include him, he definitly desrves that.
replace #7 with jangbi, after that OSL tiebreak matches it just proves how Nada is no way near the level of jangbi or even the current stork.. he had to only practise 1 matchup, but he still lost regardless. Jangbi definitely outperforms Nada in both results and performance, he deserves that spot imho.
On June 06 2008 20:18 ThePhan2m wrote: Ok, first off, You place Mind THAT low?? Oo He is without doubt better than both Hwasin and Nada, cuz these two cant even come close to Flash, while Mind rampage around in endless battles with flash. Do you have some kind of hatered towards Mind? I mean, I know he has been loosing couple of games, but to put Nada and Hwasin above him? Just dont see them winning against Mind yet, so i completly disagree with that one. Just look at Minds wins over Jaedong, you keep Jaedong (who played vs easy opponents all month) and then ditch Mind and place him 8th??(who btw lost 3 times vs Flash during the last month) And Much, seriously? You will see next month, next step in every league and proleague that Much will play worse than the newcommers like Lucifer and Pure. He has never shown any kind of intresting games, just boring dull and failed ever since his name became known. I despise the fact that you are a fanboy of both Sea and Much, place them high on PR after couple of games where you see hope again, get real! The fact is that they fail over and over again! Seas placement on PR last month was just silly. And the fact that he is out now, shows how horrible he is! Much will be gone as fast as he entered. Unless these two acomplish anything or stay stable, i wont give them the least credit. But your not hesitating jumping them up from nowhere to a high PR spot.
Tho I however was suprised to see Hwasin on 4th, he has shown some strenght, deserved PR, yes! but 4th? LOL! But still Nada, Hwasin and Much cannot really be placed this high, unless they have played vs stronger opponents like the top 4 (Flash, Best, Jaedong and Mind) Win counts doesnt matter, however vs who and how does matter! I dont get it! They played vs crappy opponents, lost vs the better players, even vs newcommers like Lucifer should be placed above these on PR. Get Lucifer IN! Lomo IN! Mind higher! Rest, whatever! To many ppl hold on to old players lost skillz and dont realize that the future belongs to the rising stars!
Well if Mind beat Much maybe he would be higher but because he couldn't , he is this low . He will be playing only proleague now because he failed in both OSL MSL and GSI .This is actually good for Wemade having Mind and Pure practiseing only for PL , we could see Wemade win the PL .
On June 07 2008 03:49 TheTyranid wrote: Nada is out of the MSL, gets knocked out of the OSL by Jangbi and is on a five game loosing streak but somehow gets 7'th place over Mind and Luxury while Jangbi gets CNBC.
With all due respect, this rank is BS.
He got knocked out of the MSL and OSL after this PR was made , there Nada was looking good in both leagues , and JangBI was death in MSL and almost death depending on Stork in OSL so why should JangBI be here and Nada not , after Nada killed him in OSL he lost to him in the tiebreaker witch was after the PR was made so your comment are stupid , and Luxury is still in OSL and Mind will be playing only proleague for now on . So MSL/OSL>Proleague next month if luxury dies he will be removed .
On June 07 2008 16:28 dinmsab wrote: replace #7 with jangbi, after that OSL tiebreak matches it just proves how Nada is no way near the level of jangbi or even the current stork.. he had to only practise 1 matchup, but he still lost regardless. Jangbi definitely outperforms Nada in both results and performance, he deserves that spot imho.
Did Nada even play vs Stork in the tiebreaker???
IIRC, it ended with Jangbi > Stork, Jangbi > Nada.
On June 07 2008 03:49 TheTyranid wrote: Nada is out of the MSL, gets knocked out of the OSL by Jangbi and is on a five game loosing streak but somehow gets 7'th place over Mind and Luxury while Jangbi gets CNBC.
With all due respect, this rank is BS.
He got knocked out of the MSL and OSL after this PR was made , there Nada was looking good in both leagues , and JangBI was death in MSL and almost death depending on Stork in OSL so why should JangBI be here and Nada not , after Nada killed him in OSL he lost to him in the tiebreaker witch was after the PR was made so your comment are stupid , and Luxury is still in OSL and Mind will be playing only proleague for now on . So MSL/OSL>Proleague next month if luxury dies he will be removed .
This PR was made after Nada got knocked out of the MSL.
On June 07 2008 03:49 TheTyranid wrote: Nada is out of the MSL, gets knocked out of the OSL by Jangbi and is on a five game loosing streak but somehow gets 7'th place over Mind and Luxury while Jangbi gets CNBC.
With all due respect, this rank is BS.
He got knocked out of the MSL and OSL after this PR was made , there Nada was looking good in both leagues , and JangBI was death in MSL and almost death depending on Stork in OSL so why should JangBI be here and Nada not , after Nada killed him in OSL he lost to him in the tiebreaker witch was after the PR was made so your comment are stupid , and Luxury is still in OSL and Mind will be playing only proleague for now on . So MSL/OSL>Proleague next month if luxury dies he will be removed .
This PR was made after Nada got knocked out of the MSL.
yes, but unless anyone is blind i think we can all agree that nada vs hwasin was a great series where both players played well
# 1 , 2 , 3 spot can't be argued. Even though i ADORE NaDa, but he def. does not deserve higher spot than Mind because the level of play Mind showed was way higher than that of NaDa in my opinion. I was also happy to see Pure on the tenth spot. no one deserves that spot more. In this PL, Pure's games were very entertaining and showed high level of skill. so.. overall, I agree with thi PR. gj FS
On June 07 2008 03:49 TheTyranid wrote: Nada is out of the MSL, gets knocked out of the OSL by Jangbi and is on a five game loosing streak but somehow gets 7'th place over Mind and Luxury while Jangbi gets CNBC.
With all due respect, this rank is BS.
He got knocked out of the MSL and OSL after this PR was made , there Nada was looking good in both leagues , and JangBI was death in MSL and almost death depending on Stork in OSL so why should JangBI be here and Nada not , after Nada killed him in OSL he lost to him in the tiebreaker witch was after the PR was made so your comment are stupid , and Luxury is still in OSL and Mind will be playing only proleague for now on . So MSL/OSL>Proleague next month if luxury dies he will be removed .
This PR was made after Nada got knocked out of the MSL.
yes, but unless anyone is blind i think we can all agree that nada vs hwasin was a great series where both players played well
Just out of curiosity, to what extent is the GSL factored into the power rank? Reasons being that Hwasin for example got eliminated by Lomo in a quite unspectacular fashion while Jangbi is facing Jaedong in the Ro16 (this could be exciting if Jangbi learned how to PvZ).
I have to admit that making sense out of GSL is difficult to some extent: Not everyone is playing (no tv-station teams, no SKT1, no ACE), the schedule drags the games quite a lot and we are not seeing many "star"-matchups yet (will change in Ro16 though). But by considering Hwasin's performance against Lomo, I would have ranked him down a little bit.
Finally I do not agree that Nada vs. Hwasin was a good series. Sure, the games were not complete rapes, but it looked like Hwasin was really on top of it.
To make sense of the whole: Hwasin maybe down a rank or two, Jangbi onto the rank (although this might need to factor in OSL tiebreakers which were played after the release).
On June 08 2008 16:51 Aesop wrote: Just out of curiosity, to what extent is the GSL factored into the power rank? Reasons being that Hwasin for example got eliminated by Lomo in a quite unspectacular fashion while Jangbi is facing Jaedong in the Ro16 (this could be exciting if Jangbi learned how to PvZ).
I have to admit that making sense out of GSL is difficult to some extent: Not everyone is playing (no tv-station teams, no SKT1, no ACE), the schedule drags the games quite a lot and we are not seeing many "star"-matchups yet (will change in Ro16 though). But by considering Hwasin's performance against Lomo, I would have ranked him down a little bit.
Finally I do not agree that Nada vs. Hwasin was a good series. Sure, the games were not complete rapes, but it looked like Hwasin was really on top of it.
To make sense of the whole: Hwasin maybe down a rank or two, Jangbi onto the rank (although this might need to factor in OSL tiebreakers which were played after the release).
tiebreakers or not, jangbi not even in CBNC is surprising to say the least
Yup, GSL should not be factored at all. Its not a legitimate league. I don't even watch it, because of that. The GSL should be considered as much as any other random special event tourny, as in, not much at all.
On the other hand, this rank is not about who has the most achievements in terms of "legitimate leagues". It is about how well Players are performing at the moment and there the GSL is obviously an indicator. That not all proteams participate does not change this fact.
GSL should count on a game by game basis. If a player does super well against a tough opponent, that should count in their favor. However, in terms of how far one makes it into the league, placement should be irrelevant.
On June 09 2008 02:47 ScarFace wrote: Yup, GSL should not be factored at all. Its not a legitimate league. I don't even watch it, because of that. The GSL should be considered as much as any other random special event tourny, as in, not much at all.
Some of the GSI games have been amazing, that's a pretty shitty reason not to watch it.
Does anyone know when the next batch of Offline Prelims are? I usually assume they'll be played soon after the Ro16 concludes in the OSL/MSL, which would mean they happen any time now.
I ask b/c I'm really curious to see if Pure can actually survive the prelims and play in something that isn't a PL game (giving his ranking more to go on).
Lol, Mind beat Best in a direct battle and still is lower in PR? Lol 2: Pure in front of Lucifer? Look at their opponents for god sakes!... Pure was doing fine only in PL, but Lucifer was on 2 individual leagues. And Lucifer was kicking ass against zerg opponents, only he had the "luck" of meeting JD...
Anyway, Kal looks a bit shaky. About Best, i put it all in the other thread, no need to go flame me again.
On June 09 2008 22:36 Phradamon wrote: Lol, Mind beat Best in a direct battle and still is lower in PR?
Are you slow?
Lol 2: Pure in front of Lucifer? Look at their opponents for god sakes!... Pure was doing fine only in PL, but Lucifer was on 2 individual leagues. And Lucifer was kicking ass against zerg opponents, only he had the "luck" of meeting JD...
Lucifer was kicking ass against zerg opponents? He was 1-1 against zerg before he met Jaedong, and neither of those games was against an A class zerg let alone an S class zerg.
Ok i tried to skim through all 8 pages looking for the explanation for this but if its there i missed so i have to ask. How does jangbi go from 6th on the PR to not even getting an honorable mention? True he got eliminated from MSL but he also advanced (albeit barely) from an extremely difficult osl group (he had to face stork pvp, Best, and the fucking nada omg, he should get at least 10th just for not pissing himself when he found out he had to play Best), and i believe he went 5-1 in proleague last month with the only loss coming from Flash.
On June 10 2008 04:12 chameleonia wrote: Ok i tried to skim through all 8 pages looking for the explanation for this but if its there i missed so i have to ask. How does jangbi go from 6th on the PR to not even getting an honorable mention? True he got eliminated from MSL but he also advanced (albeit barely) from an extremely difficult osl group (he had to face stork pvp, Best, and the fucking nada omg, he should get at least 10th just for not pissing himself when he found out he had to play Best), and i believe he went 5-1 in proleague last month with the only loss coming from Flash.
because FS hates Jangbi, thats why! he only places ppl he likes on PR, like Much and Nada, not to mention Sea jumping in an out when he has one intresting game in a month.
Lucifer hasn't really looked bad vs Zerg. It's just that the only games anyone has paid any attention to were vs JD and vs Lux, who are the #1 and #2 Zerg players right now.
However, until Lucifer has played some more games against Zerg, it will be hard to see exactly how good he is in that MU.
On June 10 2008 04:12 chameleonia wrote: he should get at least 10th just for not pissing himself when he found out he had to play Best
Who says he didn't piss himself when he found out he was playing Best? I'm guessing that he probably did. And I hope that this is FakeSteve's reason for Jangbi's blessed absence from this ranking.
On June 09 2008 02:47 ScarFace wrote: Yup, GSL should not be factored at all. Its not a legitimate league. I don't even watch it, because of that. The GSL should be considered as much as any other random special event tourny, as in, not much at all.
Some of the GSI games have been amazing, that's a pretty shitty reason not to watch it.
The GSI was a legitimate event. And yes, GSL should count, but not drastically. Its such a convoluted mess that many top tier players could [and I think have?] get eliminated before they should have, and its not even a real starleague. If a player does shit in the GSL, but alright in PL or osl/msl, he should not drop. On that same measure, if someone does great in the GSL but mediocre everywhere else, he should not rise. GSL should never be a deciding factor, more of a "icing on the cake" sort of thing.
On June 10 2008 08:39 inertinept wrote: can some one direct me to a "cool" game of Lucifer's? I havent paid attention to him and I guess he has a Nal_ra like style?
On June 09 2008 02:47 ScarFace wrote: Yup, GSL should not be factored at all. Its not a legitimate league. I don't even watch it, because of that. The GSL should be considered as much as any other random special event tourny, as in, not much at all.
Some of the GSI games have been amazing, that's a pretty shitty reason not to watch it.
The GSI was a legitimate event. And yes, GSL should count, but not drastically. Its such a convoluted mess that many top tier players could [and I think have?] get eliminated before they should have, and its not even a real starleague. If a player does shit in the GSL, but alright in PL or osl/msl, he should not drop. On that same measure, if someone does great in the GSL but mediocre everywhere else, he should not rise. GSL should never be a deciding factor, more of a "icing on the cake" sort of thing.
Well if it wasn't for GSI last season JD would have been # 1 back then and not Flash ...
On June 10 2008 04:12 chameleonia wrote: Ok i tried to skim through all 8 pages looking for the explanation for this but if its there i missed so i have to ask. How does jangbi go from 6th on the PR to not even getting an honorable mention? True he got eliminated from MSL but he also advanced (albeit barely) from an extremely difficult osl group (he had to face stork pvp, Best, and the fucking nada omg, he should get at least 10th just for not pissing himself when he found out he had to play Best), and i believe he went 5-1 in proleague last month with the only loss coming from Flash.
because FS hates Jangbi, thats why! he only places ppl he likes on PR, like Much and Nada, not to mention Sea jumping in an out when he has one intresting game in a month.
No it is because he was dead in both leagues before this PR was made , he was 1-2 in OSL and if Nada had beaten Stork in OSL he would have been completetly dead . The tiebreaker was after this PR was made and JangBI wasn't good enough for it .
Jangbi should've been on CBNC whether or not he was out of both leagues, just like Mind. He's looked impressive lately in nearly all the games I've watched of him.
On June 09 2008 02:47 ScarFace wrote: Yup, GSL should not be factored at all. Its not a legitimate league. I don't even watch it, because of that. The GSL should be considered as much as any other random special event tourny, as in, not much at all.
Some of the GSI games have been amazing, that's a pretty shitty reason not to watch it.
The GSI was a legitimate event. And yes, GSL should count, but not drastically. Its such a convoluted mess that many top tier players could [and I think have?] get eliminated before they should have, and its not even a real starleague. If a player does shit in the GSL, but alright in PL or osl/msl, he should not drop. On that same measure, if someone does great in the GSL but mediocre everywhere else, he should not rise. GSL should never be a deciding factor, more of a "icing on the cake" sort of thing.
Well if it wasn't for GSI last season JD would have been # 1 back then and not Flash ...
OSL/MSL> GSI tipped the balance. Read the damn PR next time, it is even specifically stated.
On June 09 2008 02:47 ScarFace wrote: Yup, GSL should not be factored at all. Its not a legitimate league. I don't even watch it, because of that. The GSL should be considered as much as any other random special event tourny, as in, not much at all.
Some of the GSI games have been amazing, that's a pretty shitty reason not to watch it.
The GSI was a legitimate event. And yes, GSL should count, but not drastically. Its such a convoluted mess that many top tier players could [and I think have?] get eliminated before they should have, and its not even a real starleague. If a player does shit in the GSL, but alright in PL or osl/msl, he should not drop. On that same measure, if someone does great in the GSL but mediocre everywhere else, he should not rise. GSL should never be a deciding factor, more of a "icing on the cake" sort of thing.
Well if it wasn't for GSI last season JD would have been # 1 back then and not Flash ...
OSL/MSL> GSI tipped the balance. Read the damn PR next time, it is even specifically stated.
I know what the PR said back then , i'm telling you what the truth is . JD was a freaking god back then even if Flash managed to beat him in OSL and JD did not respond well to the mech build on katrina. If it wasn't for flash's brilliant play in the GSI , JD would have been # 1 .I know that OSL/MSL>GSI but that did not play much of a big factor back then , especially not as much as Flash's rapeing all big shots in that tournament .
As for the Gomtv Avaretec Intel Classic no one is takeing seriously as the GSI.
LOLZ everyone hates backho so much, no one even wants to mention him =P he did 2-0 kal in GSL, i'm not arguing for him or anything, but i think its funny that he gets 0 recognition for even being lucky, poor kid.
anyway, i would put Midas in CBNC, and jangbi as well (even tho i dislike him)
i also agree with what a lot of people are saying about Mind, he's placed too low, he is very very consistent, and only takes losses from players that are really better than him (ie Flash, JD, Best, etc) at the same time he can beat these players on a regular basis, i think his even win-loss ratio really reflects his ability to contend with the best. Much, on the other hand, is very inconsistent, and has played MUCH easier opponents (sorry about that =) ) I don't know if i would change the ranking itself though, since Much did beat Mind for the OSLRo8 spot, i ono,
All in all, i feel that all the ranks 4-10 are kinda sketchy, and trivial at the same time. ATM no one can compete with Flash, JD, and Best, thats all that really matters.
On June 09 2008 02:47 ScarFace wrote: Yup, GSL should not be factored at all. Its not a legitimate league. I don't even watch it, because of that. The GSL should be considered as much as any other random special event tourny, as in, not much at all.
Some of the GSI games have been amazing, that's a pretty shitty reason not to watch it.
The GSI was a legitimate event. And yes, GSL should count, but not drastically. Its such a convoluted mess that many top tier players could [and I think have?] get eliminated before they should have, and its not even a real starleague. If a player does shit in the GSL, but alright in PL or osl/msl, he should not drop. On that same measure, if someone does great in the GSL but mediocre everywhere else, he should not rise. GSL should never be a deciding factor, more of a "icing on the cake" sort of thing.
Well if it wasn't for GSI last season JD would have been # 1 back then and not Flash ...
OSL/MSL> GSI tipped the balance. Read the damn PR next time, it is even specifically stated.
I know what the PR said back then , i'm telling you what the truth is . JD was a freaking god back then even if Flash managed to beat him in OSL and JD did not respond well to the mech build on katrina. If it wasn't for flash's brilliant play in the GSI , JD would have been # 1 .I know that OSL/MSL>GSI but that did not play much of a big factor back then , especially not as much as Flash's rapeing all big shots in that tournament .
As for the Gomtv Avaretec Intel Classic no one is takeing seriously as the GSI.
As I said, the GSI and his amazing performance pushed him over the edge, he would not have otherwise. Look for example Stork, besides getting second place in the GSI he still dropped, because he was not playing to his full potential else where- though he did the GSI final, again, as noted in the PR. GSI/GSL do have weight, more than PL, but they are the decider only when its a close call, or its something extreme [i.e flash's near undefeated stint through the GSI]
I think Mind is placed low too, but who cares? He'll rise in the PR next month if he's strong. PR imo isn't just a list of the most skilled players, but considers the dynamics of who's going up and down, it guesses and whatnot, and turns out right more often than not.
I also think Jangbi should also be on the close but no cigar if not the PR itself.
On June 06 2008 11:33 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: Light is TERRIBLE.
you just became my favorite mod.
also glad to see nada back on PR, while jangbi getting the hell out.
mm..... something's bothering me about the list, but i can't think of it right now.
Maybe the fact that Pure's streak on PL is the only considered, while Lucifer's streak is not and Lucifer was in two leagues at the time PR was made?
Just my two cents
How many times am I going to address this? If you simply look at who has won how many games over what period of time, you shouldn't be posting in the Power Rank thread. Pure is a MUCH stronger player than Lucifer. Watch some games once in a while, would you?
I mean really, what do you think I do all day when I'm working on the Power Rank? You think I just arbitrarily choose one player who is doing well in ProLeague and slap him in the tenth spot? There are reasons and justifications for every player's rank. Lucifer is not ranked because he isn't one of the ten strongest players right now. Pure is ranked because he is.
And exactly who were those players that Pure beat on his way to PR? Coz Lucifer beat Nada (who is on PR), Hwasin (who is on PR)
Who beat Pure? Oh no... he was beat by Bisu, the guy with injured hand?
And what about their games? You said Lucifer wasnt close to Pure as good, but did you see his stellar dt's? Or his wins on GSL?
Get real ...
I mean, for Best it counts he beats Flash (higher than him on PR), but for Lucifer doesnt count. Also doesnt count he was on two leagues. It only counts for Much but not for him Do you see the irony?
On June 13 2008 19:44 Phradamon wrote: And exactly who were those players that Pure beat on his way to PR? Coz Lucifer beat Nada (who is on PR), Hwasin (who is on PR)
Who beat Pure? Oh no... he was beat by Bisu, the guy with injured hand?
And what about their games? You said Lucifer wasnt close to Pure as good, but did you see his stellar dt's? Or his wins on GSL?
Get real ...
I mean, for Best it counts he beats Flash (higher than him on PR), but for Lucifer doesnt count. Also doesnt count he was on two leagues. It only counts for Much but not for him Do you see the irony?
i saw the irony of him loseing 2 gates to a 12 hatchery with the first 6 zerglings not used to defendt by JD
On June 13 2008 19:44 Phradamon wrote: And exactly who were those players that Pure beat on his way to PR? Coz Lucifer beat Nada (who is on PR), Hwasin (who is on PR)
Who beat Pure? Oh no... he was beat by Bisu, the guy with injured hand?
And what about their games? You said Lucifer wasnt close to Pure as good, but did you see his stellar dt's? Or his wins on GSL?
Get real ...
I mean, for Best it counts he beats Flash (higher than him on PR), but for Lucifer doesnt count. Also doesnt count he was on two leagues. It only counts for Much but not for him Do you see the irony?
Do you watch StarCraft or do you just scour TLPD for numbers?
So what? It was a victory. Period. If people praise fast carriers for Best, why in the hell is something bad for Lucifer when he goes dt's?
@ FakeSteve Yes, i watch and i have arguments for my posts, Your only answer is questioning me if i watch Starcraft games? Lol I dont give a damn for counting posts, please make TL to show me with zero posts if its possible.
On June 14 2008 00:05 Phradamon wrote: So what? It was a victory. Period. If people praise fast carriers for Best, why in the hell is something bad for Lucifer when he goes dt's?
@ FakeSteve Yes, i watch and i have arguments for my posts, Your only answer is questioning me if i watch Starcraft games? Lol I dont give a damn for counting posts, please make TL to show me with zero posts if its possible.
If you cannot tell how clearly superior Best is to Lucifer from watching their games, you really don't have credentials to make an argument about the PR. It doesn't help to just look at statistics and judge them by who they beat. It also doesn't help to judge them by 1 play per game because doing 1 pimp thing per game while being mediocre for the rest of the game doesn't make him that great. Also, Lucifer's "stellar" DT's as you called them aren't that amazingly stellar. He'll get credits for being innovative enough to use them in that manner, but it's not like Best, if he wanted to use the same strategy, couldn't have pulled it off better. By contrast, Best actually used his carriers brilliantly (or so I hear) during that game against Flash, something Lucifer wouldn't have been able to do as well if he went for the same tactic. How do we know this? Extrapolating information based on watching their games and evaluating their overall play, not just a single one, and having the knowledge and insight to actually be able to TELL who is better. Best has clearly better mechanics and game sense, and things he doesn't aren't just 1-trick ponies that catch enemies off-guard. Lucifer by all means isn't bad in those departments, he just isn't as good.
Btw, why aren't you also pitching for Backho? I mean, look at who HE beat this month, makes Lucifer's achievement look like crap doesn't it? I mean, he beat Jaedong, Casy, Much AND Bisu. Plus, he's in OSL! Backho needs to be in the PR. The TLPD agrees with me, so I'm sure you do too.
But yes, did you actually watch the games? All of them? FS did, so go do the same, watch every game from Best, Lucifer, and Pure and then come back and try to make an argument that isn't just based on information obtained from live reports.
On June 13 2008 10:59 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: I mean really, what do you think I do all day when I'm working on the Power Rank? You think I just arbitrarily choose one player who is doing well in ProLeague and slap him in the tenth spot? There are reasons and justifications for every player's rank. Lucifer is not ranked because he isn't one of the ten strongest players right now. Pure is ranked because he is.
I think you just get really drunk and then you throw some dice to rank the players and write some random comments to justify the ranks. Am I close?
On June 13 2008 10:59 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: I mean really, what do you think I do all day when I'm working on the Power Rank? You think I just arbitrarily choose one player who is doing well in ProLeague and slap him in the tenth spot? There are reasons and justifications for every player's rank. Lucifer is not ranked because he isn't one of the ten strongest players right now. Pure is ranked because he is.
I think you just get really drunk and then you throw some dice to rank the players and write some random comments to justify the ranks. Am I close?
Luxury should be higher next month, even if he looses 1-2 to flash, the 1 game he just took from his is good enough to be pushed way the fuck up there. Such a great fucken game by luxury ^^
And Lucifer slips yet again to the fanboys dismay. Atleast Pure (Skater toss!) comes back with a win after he loses, stead of dropping 3 games (The kwanro and pure matches shouldn't of been hard if Lucifer was half as good as people have made him out to be) shortly after 0-2ing unimpressively to Jaedong. Nice try boys.
On June 14 2008 00:05 Phradamon wrote: So what? It was a victory. Period. If people praise fast carriers for Best, why in the hell is something bad for Lucifer when he goes dt's?
@ FakeSteve Yes, i watch and i have arguments for my posts, Your only answer is questioning me if i watch Starcraft games? Lol I dont give a damn for counting posts, please make TL to show me with zero posts if its possible.
You didn't even get what FakeSteve was trying to say with the numbers in TLPD . It has nothing to do with the number of your posts .....
Phradamon has been arguing that Lucifer > Best. I think we can ignore his opinion.
Pure did rape Lucifer. I still do think Lucifere has better PvT than Pure, but Pure's PvP just seemed to be on another level. I could come up with some bullshit argument about how it was just one game, but Pure outclassed Lucifer. He didn't rely on BO advantages or anything, just superior play. Further, Lucifer's PvZ is on a 3 loss streak with games down to JD, Luxury and Kwanro. Who has he beaten? Calm and Shark, neither of whom is spectacular. It seems like every decent Zerg is walking all over him.
Well, I took a flier on him. His play looked good. I commented in last months thread that I wanted to see more of his vs Z and more of his vs P, that he wasn't very well tested in either of those MU's, but what I saw of him looked better than what we are seeing. Or maybe it just seemed that way because he was winning.
On an unrelated note, I think I said this earlier, but I'm calling Best to win OSL. I don't think it will surprise anyone if he does, but god damn is he solid right now.
Things can change quickly in the progaming scene. Jangbi did not deserve it then, but the way he's playing now... if he keeps it up, he'll deserve it.
Lucifer seemed to deserve it -- or so I thought anyway -- but he's just been totally falling apart, if he ever "had it" to begin with. I'm quickly coming to see that while his PvT is okay, beating Kal in PvP and beating Calm and Shark in PvZ are basically the limit of his capacity in those MU's.
I wouldn't have rated Much, but right now he is unbelievably hot. He turned it on right at the correct time, I've got to hand it to him. Now he's starting to show me that he really is the same Much he was in January. I really, REALLY had my doubts.
I would have ranked Free and I firmly believe that FakeSteve is biased against him because of his boring style, but Much's 3-1 over Free is proof that Much deserved it and Free didn't.
Well, predictions wouldn't be any fun if you never got them wrong. Of course we like to brag about our good calls (I will freely brag about how I noticed Best before he had even played 10 games, how I noticed Casy long before he won an OSL, how I knew Savior would become #1 in the world the moment he beat Nada so utterly), but I think it's actually our bad calls that make bettering interesting. I thought Rumble would show himself to be a solid Zerg we'd see a lot of. I thought Shudder would be SKT-1's next big Terran. I knew Flash was good, but I never would have guessed that he'd become this dominant. I thought Pusan would go further than Anytime. It's those kinds of calls that make betting interesting, IMO.
On June 15 2008 06:56 Phradamon wrote: Now really, PUre> Lucifer. So what? Mind > Best and was rated lower on PR. HerO> Flash and is not. Shit happens, even to the best...
I'll credit you for realizing that one game doesn't mean the world, but if you still genuinely think Lucifer is better than Pure you need to re-examine what you think you know about StarCraft
Yeah Flash isn't exactly unbeatable . Protoss should take advantage that he only pushes when he is on 3 bases when he gots the economy to boost his macro and doesn't scout much . They should be twise as greedy and tech fast to arbiters or carriers while getting more expos and adding more gateways themselfs and of course storms are nessesary and observers
On June 15 2008 06:56 Phradamon wrote: Now really, PUre> Lucifer. So what? Mind > Best and was rated lower on PR. HerO> Flash and is not. Shit happens, even to the best...
I'll credit you for realizing that one game doesn't mean the world, but if you still genuinely think Lucifer is better than Pure you need to re-examine what you think you know about StarCraft
lololol
ya lucifer seems to rely on a lot of risky strats whereas pure plays solid and more intelligently to simply out play his opponents.
On June 17 2008 07:22 kirtar111 wrote: when will July be on this list?
when he deserves it
getting top 8 osl doesn't make u top 10 in the world. Especially when your out of the MSL and haven't even been being picked for proleague by your team.
On June 17 2008 07:22 kirtar111 wrote: when will July be on this list?
when he deserves it
getting top 8 osl doesn't make u top 10 in the world. Especially when your out of the MSL and haven't even been being picked for proleague by your team.
He hasn't been picked because he has individual league commitments, his team is doing him a favor. Its not as if they don't think hes reliable. I agree though he shouldn't be on PR yet, because he doesn't have enough games to prove hes totally solid. When he beats rock, he should get the tenth spot though- that is, unless someone else comes out of no where and deserves it more. But I don't think that will happen.
On June 17 2008 07:22 kirtar111 wrote: when will July be on this list?
when he deserves it
getting top 8 osl doesn't make u top 10 in the world. Especially when your out of the MSL and haven't even been being picked for proleague by your team.
He hasn't been picked because he has individual league commitments, his team is doing him a favor. Its not as if they don't think hes reliable. I agree though he shouldn't be on PR yet, because he doesn't have enough games to prove hes totally solid. When he beats rock, he should get the tenth spot though- that is, unless someone else comes out of no where and deserves it more. But I don't think that will happen.
well tbh, when it comes to stability, July isn't the best. If I were STX coach I would take Hwasin / Kal for sure over July in a lineup. But I would take July over Calm for third spot. And with 34 (YES THIRTY FUCKEN FOUR) members in STX... after Hwasin and Kal, they must be fighting for that last 1v1 spot so hard.
On June 19 2008 18:26 raga4ka wrote: ForGG not in the CBNC atleast disturbs me
forgg would have to actually win something to get on the power rank
you really have to know forgg's history or have a strong grasp of how and why he wins games to understand that
Don't know about history but he has a killer record this month and passed Kal who is very strong in PvT on to the semifinals in the MSL which means he will be seeded for next MSL unlike some of the CBNC like FBH .He looks over all in a good shape this season like all of Lecaf's players.Not to mention Stork , but good thing at least that you didn't add JangBI.
Why would Jangbi be knocked out of the powerrankings, when he was just on a 7-game winstreak?? Aside from his horrid debacle in the OSL today, he has won every game since the last powerrank... wtf would he not be there?
On June 20 2008 23:00 EGoldman wrote: Why would Jangbi be knocked out of the powerrankings, when he was just on a 7-game winstreak?? Aside from his horrid debacle in the OSL today, he has won every game since the last powerrank... wtf would he not be there?
he played bad in those games, the wins were coincidental. being slightly better than someone who plays terribly doesn't make you a good player
On June 20 2008 23:00 EGoldman wrote: Why would Jangbi be knocked out of the powerrankings, when he was just on a 7-game winstreak?? Aside from his horrid debacle in the OSL today, he has won every game since the last powerrank... wtf would he not be there?
he played bad in those games, the wins were coincidental. being slightly better than someone who plays terribly doesn't make you a good player
Despite all your bad talk about him, he's stringing together a lot of "coincidental" wins right now. Just because he doesn't look as sharp as Mind or Flash doesn't mean you should hold your past bias against him. If he keeps up his current performance, then not giving him at the very least a CBNC would be disgraceful.
If you want to keep talking down on him, you better hope he completely flops before this month is through or you just won't have a legitimate excuse come next PR. Beyond a certain point, you have to take a look at "coincidental" wins and realize that they aren't coincidental.
On June 20 2008 23:00 EGoldman wrote: Why would Jangbi be knocked out of the powerrankings, when he was just on a 7-game winstreak?? Aside from his horrid debacle in the OSL today, he has won every game since the last powerrank... wtf would he not be there?
he played bad in those games, the wins were coincidental. being slightly better than someone who plays terribly doesn't make you a good player
Despite all your bad talk about him, he's stringing together a lot of "coincidental" wins right now. Just because he doesn't look as sharp as Mind or Flash doesn't mean you should hold your past bias against him. If he keeps up his current performance, then not giving him at the very least a CBNC would be disgraceful.
If you want to keep talking down on him, you better hope he completely flops before this month is through or you just won't have a legitimate excuse come next PR. Beyond a certain point, you have to take a look at "coincidental" wins and realize that they aren't coincidental.
There isn't a bias, the hate against jangbi is just a long-running joke
Jangbi hasn't been playing very well, his loss to BackHo certainly cements that. I adore BackHo, but he's not very good. Look at this top ten list, every single person on it has been having a better month than Jangbi. Yes, that includes Nada and Mind.
Best is scary, Jaedong is not anymore. Yes, the legend killer may go to the very end of MSL but I dont see him doing this in the walkover fashion that was typical for him not so long ago. The match vs Lucifer proved absolutely nothing to me except the fact, that the KTF kid sux and cant even compete with the very best in the business...and btw happy bday Steve, keep on keeping on! Best wishes
On June 22 2008 08:30 disciple wrote: Best is scary, Jaedong is not anymore.
Stopped reading there.
just look at his impressive ZvT this season, and read whatever you want - JD won totally like 2 or 3 games, how cool is that
And Best has won only PvP's and 1 victory over Flash so what is your point ? Are you telling me that JD's ZvZ is weaker then Best's PvP ?If JD demolishes Hwasin it means that his so called "weak ZvT right now has never been weak" .
BeSt is over 50% in all the MUs, JD is not even close in the TvZ this season. The situation last season was completely different, Jaedong is totally eclipsed by Flash so far and if he drops the soap against Hwasin I dont see a reason why he should be hailed as the dominating player in the scene.
On June 22 2008 15:21 Februarys wrote: wow I feel like Luxury might go up in rank from beating Flash twice
Jaedong should retake the #1 spot..he's been playing pretty decent while Flash has been shaky
Jaedong has a terrible vt record lately and until he proves otherwise [in a spectacular fashion] he doesn't have what it takes to retake #1. If Flash is to drop, Best is the only candidate.
I am not at all impressed with Best, and statistically he is 2 games behind best this month over the same number of games, but in the previous month Flash had an extra 6 games plus the classic which is an extra 4 games (maybe 2 but I think the real number is 5 but that is a matter of dates) anyway most of Flash's losses have been because of slips and mistakes (Lux game one it was losing the first vessel when he was about to do a sunken break)
Flash is still the best by far it is just fatigue that is getting to him. (Look at his loss vs free and try telling me I am wrong)
Kwanro > Pure Guess my prediction with him taking a beating to the first strong zerg comes true... After all, his opponent were 2nd or 3 rd class opponents. Plus he took a beat on Katrina, protoss heaven... Lucifer for PR!
Lucifer's crapy form this month isnt an excuse for Pure to be on PR last month, when both had similar PL records, except Lucifer was in two individual leagues too. But, what do i know....
On June 24 2008 19:02 Phradamon wrote: Lucifer's crapy form this month isnt an excuse for Pure to be on PR last month, when both had similar PL records, except Lucifer was in two individual leagues too. But, what do i know....
On June 22 2008 15:21 Februarys wrote: wow I feel like Luxury might go up in rank from beating Flash twice
Jaedong should retake the #1 spot..he's been playing pretty decent while Flash has been shaky
Jaedong has a terrible vt record lately and until he proves otherwise [in a spectacular fashion] he doesn't have what it takes to retake #1. If Flash is to drop, Best is the only candidate.
The top spots are lying solely on the JD-Hwasin and Best-Luxury series. If Best does not beat Luxury, there is no way, NO way he will be #1.
On June 22 2008 15:21 Februarys wrote: wow I feel like Luxury might go up in rank from beating Flash twice
Jaedong should retake the #1 spot..he's been playing pretty decent while Flash has been shaky
Jaedong has a terrible vt record lately and until he proves otherwise [in a spectacular fashion] he doesn't have what it takes to retake #1. If Flash is to drop, Best is the only candidate.
The top spots are lying solely on the JD-Hwasin and Best-Luxury series. If Best does not beat Luxury, there is no way, NO way he will be #1.
Just as there is no way, NO way Jd will be above 5 if he loses to Hwasin. Hes only been beating Zergs and low tier terrans lately, if he loses to Hwasin in bad form, I don't see much keeping him up there, above Hwasin, Best, Flash, Much, Kal, etc. Flash can still keep his number 1 spot, he showed good form in the start of the month, bad form in the middle. If he plays well towards the end, and crushes lomo, he could retain it- though hardly. Again, relies on the jd-hwasin and best-luxury series, and even then if Flash stays its only because he looked so damn solid only a few weeks ago, and it would be a little quick to knock him out of first because of one dropped series and two dropped pl games.
On June 22 2008 15:21 Februarys wrote: wow I feel like Luxury might go up in rank from beating Flash twice
Jaedong should retake the #1 spot..he's been playing pretty decent while Flash has been shaky
Jaedong has a terrible vt record lately and until he proves otherwise [in a spectacular fashion] he doesn't have what it takes to retake #1. If Flash is to drop, Best is the only candidate.
The top spots are lying solely on the JD-Hwasin and Best-Luxury series. If Best does not beat Luxury, there is no way, NO way he will be #1.
Just as there is no way, NO way Jd will be above 5 if he loses to Hwasin. Hes only been beating Zergs and low tier terrans lately, if he loses to Hwasin in bad form, I don't see much keeping him up there, above Hwasin, Best, Flash, Much, Kal, etc. Flash can still keep his number 1 spot, he showed good form in the start of the month, bad form in the middle. If he plays well towards the end, and crushes lomo, he could retain it- though hardly. Again, relies on the jd-hwasin and best-luxury series, and even then if Flash stays its only because he looked so damn solid only a few weeks ago, and it would be a little quick to knock him out of first because of one dropped series and two dropped pl games.
Actually Flash would be lucky if he stays in top 3 with luxury / best and JD /Hwasin out there .Of course the series with Lomo is the bigest thing that could lower Flash in the PR .Lomo has a chance to skyrocked up the PR next month if he beats Flash and if it is a good series thought he has proven to me that he is a good TvTer and his strategys are really good efective and entertaining (TvZ) .Nada Mind Kal and Pure may get out of the PR with all the new talent that is shown in MSL/OSL and Lecaf .
On June 22 2008 15:21 Februarys wrote: wow I feel like Luxury might go up in rank from beating Flash twice
Jaedong should retake the #1 spot..he's been playing pretty decent while Flash has been shaky
Jaedong has a terrible vt record lately and until he proves otherwise [in a spectacular fashion] he doesn't have what it takes to retake #1. If Flash is to drop, Best is the only candidate.
The top spots are lying solely on the JD-Hwasin and Best-Luxury series. If Best does not beat Luxury, there is no way, NO way he will be #1.
Just as there is no way, NO way Jd will be above 5 if he loses to Hwasin. Hes only been beating Zergs and low tier terrans lately, if he loses to Hwasin in bad form, I don't see much keeping him up there, above Hwasin, Best, Flash, Much, Kal, etc. Flash can still keep his number 1 spot, he showed good form in the start of the month, bad form in the middle. If he plays well towards the end, and crushes lomo, he could retain it- though hardly. Again, relies on the jd-hwasin and best-luxury series, and even then if Flash stays its only because he looked so damn solid only a few weeks ago, and it would be a little quick to knock him out of first because of one dropped series and two dropped pl games.
Why not, Jaedong can have the 4'th spot under Hwasin, Flash, and Hwasin. If he gets raped in the series he will probably get 5'th under Much but if he plays well then he will be 4'th imo. Much is just not as strong a player as Jaedong atm. You say he has been beating Zergs and bad terrans lately. That is true but don't forget that Jaedong would demolish any Protoss at this moment.
Here is how the PR will look based on series outcomes. (considering the PR will be after the Flash/Lomo series on July 4)
Jaedong beats Hwasin, Luxury beats Best, Flash beats Lomo ----> Luxury moves into top spot over either Hwasin, Best or both (possibly 5'th spot if the games are uninspiring). Flash 1, JD 2.
JD > Hwasin, Best > Lux, Flash > Lomo. Flash1, JD/Best 2/3 depends on who played better but advantage is toward JD. Much 4.
JD > Hwasin, Lux > Best, Lomo > Flash. JD/Flash 1/2 again depending on game quality but in this case Flash for 1st is highly unlikely. Lux 3, Much 4, Lomo/Hwasin 5/6 possibly.
Hwasin > JD, Best > Lux, Flash > Lomo. Flash 1, Best 2, Hwasin 3, JD/Much 4/5 depending on how well JD plays.
Hwasin > JD, Best > Lux, Lomo > Flash. Best 1, Hwasin 2, Flash 3.
The only way best can get 1'st is if Flash AND Jaedong loose their series.
On June 22 2008 15:21 Februarys wrote: wow I feel like Luxury might go up in rank from beating Flash twice
Jaedong should retake the #1 spot..he's been playing pretty decent while Flash has been shaky
Jaedong has a terrible vt record lately and until he proves otherwise [in a spectacular fashion] he doesn't have what it takes to retake #1. If Flash is to drop, Best is the only candidate.
The top spots are lying solely on the JD-Hwasin and Best-Luxury series. If Best does not beat Luxury, there is no way, NO way he will be #1.
Just as there is no way, NO way Jd will be above 5 if he loses to Hwasin. Hes only been beating Zergs and low tier terrans lately, if he loses to Hwasin in bad form, I don't see much keeping him up there, above Hwasin, Best, Flash, Much, Kal, etc. Flash can still keep his number 1 spot, he showed good form in the start of the month, bad form in the middle. If he plays well towards the end, and crushes lomo, he could retain it- though hardly. Again, relies on the jd-hwasin and best-luxury series, and even then if Flash stays its only because he looked so damn solid only a few weeks ago, and it would be a little quick to knock him out of first because of one dropped series and two dropped pl games.
I thought PR Rank was all about who is the most dominant player in the starcraft scene at the moment..not about how they've been doing from the last 3 or 4 games? If so, Jaedong/ Flash have been shaky at the moment but they've had their share of dominance lately to hold their top two spots for a while...a few games that they lose isn't going to make a difference. Just because they're in their prime does not mean they can win every single game
Yes, Jaedong has been losing to lots of terrans lately and if he loses to hwasin in BO5, I agree that he is falling but he still remains the dominant player of this starcraft time. If we follow your logic, then Flash shouldn't keep his number 1 spot. Because your argument is based on current matchup results and Flash has been losing games here and there, and even let Luxury knock him off of OSL. Even though i admit I'm biased toward JD, I can totally see that from the logic and tone of your post that you are biased toward Flash
On June 24 2008 19:02 Phradamon wrote: Lucifer's crapy form this month isnt an excuse for Pure to be on PR last month, when both had similar PL records, except Lucifer was in two individual leagues too. But, what do i know....
lucifer got raped by kwanro too. so yeah what do you know? and lucifer is like 0-5 or 0-6 in all of his recent games. lucifer sucks stop sucking his dick.
the old katrina statement is so false now after zergs learning out how to play on it and the flash build.
So JD> Hwasin. So 1- Flash 2- Jaedong until now. If Flash lose to Lomo, there will be 1- JD, 2- Flash. If Lux beats Best, Lux will take 3rd, but if Best beats Lux, there will be a tough one for FS...
What about if Lucifer beats Flash? Does that mean Flsh will be 2nd and Lucifer in PR?
because JD showed that he is still dominant through his game verse Hwasin Flash has been shaky Best has been performing well Luxury took monster Flash out of OSL
On June 27 2008 06:37 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: Flash hasn't been shaky, let's not get carried away. Luxury is an absolute beast.
He has a few losses in PL too thought , but yes he can't be considered shaky . Will you wait for his match with Lomo to confirm that before you make the PR or will it be on time next month??? Besides that how will the top #4 be placed counting the Luxury vs Best mach ? More importantly who will be # 1 next month ???
As much as this pr is gonna hurt me...it will be great to see july on it [I predict 10-8]. Plus, Flash will take his vengeance next month when he retakes the pr #1 and forces jaedong into a never ending death spiral slump.
When is flash vs lomo btw? It aint on the calendar.
1 - Best is best. My protoss bias + his AMAZING AMAZING comeback against Luxury (best PvZ comeback in OSL history). Every game he won, he had a huge huge disadvantage, whether Lux sacrificed his econ to pool hard and seal his base on troy, or do a speedling all in to disrupt his main on othello, his probe save vs 7 or so speedlings, his sick on the spot zealot/reaver sneak around, his perfect sair/reaver management - these kinds of plays really give his game a shine and did you see the map pool? LOL, luxury won't sleep for weeks! This kid is the definition of clutch.
2 - Jaedong. My opinon on current TvZ's are that Hwasin and Flash have the best. A lot of Jaedong's recent losses were actually Hwasin. And did you see the authority and force he shut Hwasin down with? In my eyes, that was a very thorough redemption. Game 2 was insanely close/lucky, but game 3 and 4 were almost laughable. Game 3 was art. Game 4 was brutal. Really brutal. .... Terrifying... Rape =(. And the intensity in the little chogoling in the booth as he is biting his lips, twitching his eyes, and ripping across the keyboard is just too awesome. Long live the Jaedongling~
3 - Flash - What? Flash so low? Yeah, what of it. His competition hasn't been as hard and his record this month is weakest. Plus his semis are so ridiculously easier than vs Hwasin or Lux. Lomo, you are an awesomely cute player... but Flash is awesomely ruthless, and will facesmash you into oblivion. Still, Flash honestly hasn't looked QUITE as perfect as before. And what I mean by that is Jaedong and Best really put on some amazing performances while Flash has not recently. That's really all. I thought the two players above showed something truly special the last two days. While Flash instead lost to this guy.
4 - Luxury - The guy played the month of his life, eliminated the favorite from the OSL in truly truly great games. His play on Andromeda and Troy were both solid and he outclassed Lee Young Ho pretty clearly in that series. Ofc Flash fought well, but by mid game in both games, Luxury had an advantage and was pressing to end the game while Flash was gasping for air. Game 1, he took a crafty, passive management approach using the map very well to his advantage, then in game 2, he did such a ballsy 3 lurker muta harass in front of Flash's face when he tried to move out to hugely swing the game into his favor. Solid play. Then he looked to be poised for an OSL title, 2-0 up against Best. Sad eh? Still... the zerg that beat Flash, need I say more? Plus, who are you gonna tell me who's better? ... -_-;
5 - Hwasin - It must suck so bad to be Hwasin after what Jaedong did to him. Hwasin's story every MSL. Look brilliant, look solid, take out strong competition like Nada. Always come in to challenge the defending champion. Always get heart wrenchingly beat, whether it's cold brutal heartless murder like Jaedong, or through scouts and being called insurance. When people think about Terran, they all think Flash right now, but Hwasin is the other guy. This captain has a team to steer for proleague playoffs while the best terran does not.... assuming STX beats ACE which I am so sure will happen. 6 - Kal - Kal = Storm is imba. Kal played very well vs ForGG, but ForGG played better. Still, Kal has been consistantly playing hard opposition and doing well. All five games were good and some of them were downright outrageous. Scout DT? The modern reinvention of the Stove? Yeah, Kal deserves a spot not only for his consistant good results as the other half of STX but also because his ability to innovate and bring back the stove, 14 nexus style. So sick. 7 - Nada - You're always a good filler. GJ 8 - ForGG - ... ... Yeah. He makes stuff, and A LOT OF IT. But not only that, but his noticable growth to fill the Lecaf roster from a ace duo to an ace tio is worth notice. His weaker TvT from the days have sharpened up and it's not bad. ForGG's ability to give every human being a gun a tank or bike and sendin em out to fight is pretty hard to match. Lecaf isn't 1st because Anytime and Jaedong are undefeatable this season. No sir, ForGG has truly helped Lecaf fill up and the last bits of PL have really helped him shape up. While samsung is #1 in PL, I still think Lecaf is the team to beat. 9 - July may be the first finalist to not be on the PR~~ LOL. But he plays too few games. The only thing I can really tell is that July is definately in a good place. STX is about to go to playoffs, his games vs Rock were one-side (although andromeda coulda been bad), and he's been helping out the team in 2v2 in so-so fashion, but it's positive! So things are looking up for July.. plus it's his month so even if there are more deserving players, there really aren't. 10- Backho - He's had his fair share of fights to get here. Let's remember he made it from a hard group in funny ways. But also, his series where he beat Jangbi was solid. Jangbi played a little sub-par, but then again, beating down jangbi in his best MU so easily is quite impressive. On Andromeda, Jangbi was never given intiative even though backho seemed behind.
NOPE LIST - Grandpa. NOOO GRANDPA NOooooo. - Mind ... you're playing terribly bad... terribly terribly bad... Did I mention how bad and uninspired you are playing right now? Yeah, you're playing bad. - Sea - LOL Sea? Why did I even put him here? To laugh at steve and his PL Star who won't even go to playoffs but instead if gonna be playing foreigners for EZ wins and then lose the tournament to someone like Bisu or such. - FBH - AHAHAHAHAHA, Grandpa owned you. God, if it wasn't for that, imagine.... But grandpa's love too overwhelming. - Jangbi - Way to suck.
1. Flash: Little bit of a bias, but I reward consistency. Flash had a monsterous record only a few weeks ago, while Jaedong did not. Jaedong is looking to be back and form, and flash a little imperfect. Therefore, neither of them are ideal candidates- both have a little bit more of a spotty record than you would want for a #1, but Flash wins through, as I said, consistency. No reason for jaedong to push to 1 when he hasn't concrectly proved he is, yet again, #1
2. Jaedong: Explained my reasoning above
3. Best: is playing great, pvz is still not his best matchup but you can begin to see flickers of brilliance, very likely could win osl
4. Luxury: Crushed Flash, played great against best. Getting eliminate in the semifinals? What more can you ask for, this guy is without a doubt, a top tier player.
5. Hwasin: Despite losing 3-1 to Jaedong he is on fire against Terrans and has proven he can go toe to toe with the best zvt in the world [Jaedong], and not look outclassed. He needs to fix a few things though, before we see a champion.
6. Much: Crushed Free to make it to the msl semi finals, and played great against Best despite losing 0-2. Much is playing the best starcraft he ever has, and just genuinely looks like a beast. Low spot not a shot against him, but a testemaent to how good the others are.
7. Kal: Kal played great against FORGG but was knocked out regardless. Still, he is the same old kal. A solid player and can be expected to tear most people apart, a tough loss against a tough opponent doesn't change that.
8. Forgg: Hes on fire. Great tvp. great tvz. His tvt has even started to look half decent- still, a long way to go before he has a chance against Flash or....any truly top tier terran. Either way, cant deny results.
9: July: Hes looking to be in form again. He has made it to the osl semi finals and is a faviroute to make it all the way, maybe even over come Bests imperfect pvz. Still, he has played SO few games lately, his only games to judge off of have been his osl run and his 2v2 pl. To be honest, his OSL run wasn't the hardest so far, and he has yet to be forced into a macro game. If July can push forward to the OSl finals and give a good showing there, prove to everyone that he can go late game, he has no where to go but up.
10. Backho: Backho is a newcomer and is a bit of a fool, never adapting his build to suit the game [backho vs ggplay osl groups, good example], but when he gets the build right hes downright strong. He is the underdog in the semi finals, but he very well could win- if he does he will be destroyed by Best in the finals, but you cant deny this little man his spot. No longer can his wins be considered flukes, we are seeing the emergence of a top tier player. Given more results, and showing he can adapt properly, backho may go far.
cbnc: Mind: Get out of my sight.
Jangbi: You are one of the best pvt's, but god damn Jangbi, fix your nerves and fix you pvp and pvz, then maybe we can talk.
FBH: Went fairly far in the msl and is doing good in the PL, but we need more.
Nada: I'm sorry, you failed in both leagues and you have shown us nothing in pl, try again next season.
Pure: You should have never been on the pr, all you have is pl accomplishments- they mean jackshit. Make a name for yourself next season in an individual league, maybe you will go somewhere. Until then, the cbnc is where you shall remain.
1-2 spots are interchangeable in my mind, but as I said, I'm biased and I think consistency should be placed over one good series. Jaedong has shown inconsistent results in PL for months now, and that is not a #1 to me. Flash has lost a few games, but they are smaller in margin. We will have to watch him of course, but Jaedong going back to number 1 is simply too hasty. Despite his good play against Hwasin.
On June 28 2008 16:13 Nick_54 wrote: 4-2 this month and after what I just saw you can NOT tell me Bisu isn't one of the 10 best progamers right now.
No his not . It is all about the preparation and if Bisu has only PL to perform he doesn't deserve to be mentioned otherways players like Sea.Ruby , Pure , SEA , all of Lecafs team and a shitload of more players are doing x 10 times the job his doing for their teams . And don't complain that Lecaf loses a few PL games there is still a 80% and more chances that they will make the playoffs , but to make it even better Lecaf has solid teams in the individual tournaments .
Yeah, bisu is getting a bit better. But we need more results, to prove he can become consistent. If he qualifies for a league and continues to show strong results in pl, I can see Bisu being put back on. Hes looking strong again, but still- he went 1-1 against Calm not that long ago. Its too soon to say.
He isn't slumping althought he loses like what 5 - 6 games this month . The lost to Ruby isn't that painful , but the lost to Luxury was disgusting especially the 2nd game .
Am I the only one who thinks Luxury played like total crap in the semi. He choked so bad it was painful to watch. Was it really that hard to go mutalisk in games 3 and 4? He had Best on his knees in both games. The mutas would have been a perfect counter to the reaver/zealot allin in game 3. This zerg should be hanged for the mental trauma he inflicted on zerg players. I don't even know how high Lux should be raised in the next PR, if raised at all.
Speaking of Best, he did make an amazing comeback even though his opponet reached the height of choke artistry, however, I do not think he will be #1. He just isn't on the level of Flash/JD yet. If he wins the OSL I will certainly retract that statement. The top 3 will definitely be Flash/JD/Best with either Flash or JD on top.
I really wish more people, when trying to take part in the power rank discussion, would try to give more detail other than “so and so hasn’t been playing well enough,or... he looks a bit shaky”. For instance, the post above me, I am not agreeing or disagreeing with you, but would you please explain WHY you think Best deserves the #1 spot more than Jaedong? And same to the post above that, why Best isn’t as good as Jaedong/Flash? Give examples of games or comparison of games that clearly shows one's superiority to another. I mean, perhaps I am just expecting too much and should be hanged, but it will be a lot more … worthwhile ...to read the comments if they sounded like more than just opinions, because opinions have no place (in theory) when deciding the power ranks.
I mean, yes this is a public forum and I have no right telling people they shouldn’t post their comments, but after 14 pages of mostly empty statements, I admit I am a little nauseous.
I say that BeSt has been playing better, because of his great Mental fortitude to come back from an 0-2 deficit to make the OSL finals (Which is the more prestigious of the 2 tournaments traditionally) on a map pool that has given other protoss quite poor results. BeSt has been winning almost ALL of his games this month and has a SICK 80% win ratio in PvP, that is INSANE.
Jaedong on the other hand, hasnt been playing as much, and his only real notable win was over hwasin (Who he is actually still behind in score this year 3-4 albeit he did win when it counted). Jaedong is gonna have to show a bit more that his ZvT is back up to scratch then that 1 series for me to think that hes the #1 player again.
Flash, has been losing altogether too many games this month. No one can fault you for droppin a PL game here or there, but theres a point where its too much. Droppin out of the OSL in the quarters on top of dropping games to HerO, free, and RuBy in proleague is just too much to give him the #1 spot, especially with his upcoming MSL preformance so close, which will be a HUGE indication of his current state.
I don't think Best should be one (This is one of those occasions I simply cannot call the Jaedong/Best/Flash placement, but I just think Best needs one more decent showing in PvZ), however I do believe we need to recognise how enormously versatile and deadly he has become in this era of maps for SKT and himself.
As it stands, Best's PvP ensures that putting him on a P favoured matchup is nigh on a guaranteed win for SKT. To beat him on Katrina or a similar P favoured map requires either stunning play he can't match (and his PvZ/PvT is, while somewhat more clunkly and less strong in terms of gamesense/early game micro than his PvP, still is very competitive), and sending a P against him practically guarantees you're going to get fucked seven different ways. With Midas and (finally!) Bisu also looking like PL tiers for SKT, they can even throw Best on a map he's less comfortable with and trade the matchup around to throw people.
tl;dr, Best is proving himself very versatile.
The thing that I do think Best has over Jaedong and Flash at the moment is the ability to lift his game in all aspects of competition. While Jaedong had that great 3:1 of Hwasin, he looked quite ... surprised by the unusual approach Bisu took in the PL and his ZvT still isn't what it was. Flash also looked shocked by Luxury's approaches in the OSL, as well as how effectively people have adapted to his play in the Proleague. Meanwhile, Best continues to be a proleague machine, recovered confidently from a strong game that beat him on the P>T map from Really and crushed him in the ACE. Let's not forget the impressive comeback in his unproven matchup against a player on a tear on Z>P maps either. Now, I'm not certain that's enough to make him the number one - but he is holding up well in front of multiple challenges, very effectively for someone who isn't even a champion yet.
When he gets the OSL (sorry Julyzerg/Backho fans, I just don't see them stopping him in any shape or form), and with a little more practice in PvZ/PvT (which Bisu seems to be helping him out with somewhat, and getting PvP in return), watch out.
People who are attacking Flash for dropping out of the OSL and dropping proleague games need to relize 2 things:
1) Flash still has the best proleague record that won't change by the end of the month 2) Flash got knocked out in the Ro8, Jaedong got knocked out in the Ro24/ODT (as it was formally known) Best manged to advance to the finals and has yet to play that match
but consider
3) Best didn't qualify for the MSL, Jaedong and Flash both are in the Ro4 (assuming Flash wins [I feel this is a safe assumption])
so for proleague Flash>Best>Jaedong OSL Best>Flash>Jaedong MSL Flash=Jaedong>Best
Now this isn't looking at how close the games were but purelly at how far they are in each tournament Flash>Best>Jaedong
On June 30 2008 14:14 wswordsmen wrote: People who are attacking Flash for dropping out of the OSL and dropping proleague games need to relize 2 things:
1) Flash still has the best proleague record that won't change by the end of the month 2) Flash got knocked out in the Ro8, Jaedong got knocked out in the Ro24/ODT (as it was formally known) Best manged to advance to the finals and has yet to play that match
but consider
3) Best didn't qualify for the MSL, Jaedong and Flash both are in the Ro4 (assuming Flash wins [I feel this is a safe assumption])
so for proleague Flash>Best>Jaedong OSL Best>Flash>Jaedong MSL Flash=Jaedong>Best
Now this isn't looking at how close the games were but purelly at how far they are in each tournament Flash>Best>Jaedong
Yeah except we re looking for records of this month PL and leagues not all season record . Besides i don't know what you are so obsessed with PL even if one of the favorite losses the team could always back them up , it is not fatal if Flash or JD or enybody else lose some PL games but their performance in the leagues is much more important if you ask me although PL games could give a clue at how their doing . I will give an example with JD he has been looking bad ( i mean bad in not winning his PL games, but still not so bad performance) in ZvT in PL but did he rape Hwasin ( who i think has the best TvZ better then Flash if both are at their maximum ) in the MSL with baller builds who were all risky executed with confidence . He even raped him in an all out macro war in game 2 after his loss in game one .And to tell the truth , that was JD almost at his best that game he stopped Hwasin at every turn with plague swarm and scourges . His macro never sliped and his swarm and plague use was superb , not to mention his harass ability with lings . Top that with game 4 his trademark muta control which most of us doubted will be effective he raped him after the failed push it was over with Hwasin not haveing engineering bay. JD was just showing-off after that . All this on maps that are way way way harder it seems for a zerg player to perform well . And please don't judge JD's ZvP just because he lost to Bisu on a turtle friendly sair/reaver in to carrier map go a few weeks back and see Bisu being raped in MSL .Fact is I ain't voteing against JD in Bo5 no matter who the opponent is ... I can't see the future to tell if JD's ZvP or ZvT will be shaky that goes for BEST and Flash too . I can see BEST loseing to July were Luxury failed , but i could also see him winning . But BEST looked seriously behind in all games early game that a player like July i'm sure will feed an those mistakes .
I really wish more people, when trying to take part in the power rank discussion, would try to give more detail other than “so and so hasn’t been playing well enough,or... he looks a bit shaky”. For instance, the post above me, I am not agreeing or disagreeing with you, but would you please explain WHY you think Best deserves the #1 spot more than Jaedong? And same to the post above that, why Best isn’t as good as Jaedong/Flash? Give examples of games or comparison of games that clearly shows one's superiority to another. I mean, perhaps I am just expecting too much and should be hanged, but it will be a lot more … worthwhile ...to read the comments if they sounded like more than just opinions, because opinions have no place (in theory) when deciding the power ranks.
Best shouldn't be higher than Flash and Jaedong is because his win over Luxury was unconvincing. Best's comeback was spectacular but only and I repeat only because Luxury completely blew the series. Had it been a more competent zerg playing in that series, he would have finished Best in game three and noone would be talking about Best's amazing play or how he should be number one on the power rank. The way that series played out left me to believe that July will be able to defeat Best. Best was playing horribly in games one and two. He made a noobish mistake on Hwarandgo allowing lings to raze his base and in game two his scout died and he got painfully raped by 2 hatch hydra. In game 3 he was set back by ling harass and all Luxury needed to do is go mutalisk to counter the zealot/reaver. Game 4 was a repeat of game 3 early game. Lux's lings did a lot of damage but failed to kill the nexus. Instead of keeping up pressure Luxury allowed Best to recover. He then proceeded to loose every single battle and 2 expansions. In game 5 they were back on Hwarandgo where instead of playing aggressively, Luxury went for a macro game ( which suits Best by the way) and SOMEHOW ended up with a weak econ. Luxury completely choked. He choked so hard that you just have to discredit Best's victory to an extent.
After watching July vs Rock series I believe that if July playes agressively in the early game and is able to not choke and finish off Best, he will have the advantage in that series. I have no doubt that Jaedong will rape Much and get to the MSL final. I have no doubt that Flash will rape the life out of Lomo and ForGG and get to the MSL final. However I do doubt that Best will beat July. I still think he is untested in PvZ seeing how Luxury practically handed him the win. If best wins the OSL, he will have all the rights to be #1 in august. For this month however, Best should be at most 2'nd since his PL is better that Jaedongs however I don't think that a hiccup that Flash is experiencing should put him below 1'st. Savior had hiccups too but that did not stop him from being #1. Just ask yourself, do you honestly believe that Flash will loose to Lomo or ForGG in the MSL. The kid is practically in the MSL finals, along with Jaedong.
I know that mr. Lee Yoon Yeol got a 1-2 record this month but... he made something else then 1 rax FE vs 815 and I think that should give him number 1# in PR,
i had such a great idea who would be #10...but i forgot. anyways, what does cnbc stand for? Edit: i remembered, Ruby would be good for #10. at the risk of sounding noobish, what does hwaiting mean?
On July 03 2008 10:31 xenero wrote: i had such a great idea who would be #10...but i forgot. anyways, what does cnbc stand for? Edit: i remembered, Ruby would be good for #10. at the risk of sounding noobish, what does hwaiting mean?
close but no cigar
"hwaiting" is just how koreans say "fighting" when they chant "1 2 3 [whoever] fighting"
Top 3 really looks like a tossup atm. Best is in awesome shape, Jaedong seems to be coming back (my bet for winning msl at least) and Flash is a tad shaky but somehow it still feels like he is the favourite to win vs any player...
On July 04 2008 10:18 DennizR wrote: Top 3 really looks like a tossup atm. Best is in awesome shape, Jaedong seems to be coming back (my bet for winning msl at least) and Flash is a tad shaky but somehow it still feels like he is the favourite to win vs any player...
Yeah I guess he didnt really decline in skill or whatever, just that he seems to be coming "back" to being the best current player as he was before Flash started his streak.
Hey Steve, did you ever get to ask Sea about who he thought were the strongest players? in other words, did you ask him his opinion about Flash / Jaedong ?