Much - If the Power Rank had 11 spots, Much would be on it. He's still what he was last month, except everyone on the list has performed just slightly better, and is thus just slightly more deserving of a spot.
BackHo - roooooooooooooooooofl NO. What an embarassment to the OSL Semifinal.
Pure - Pure is still great. Really great. However, I can't justify giving him a spot above any of the people on this list. Once he makes an individual league, we'll have a better guage of what he's capable of. Last month there simply was room for someone like Pure, who has played exceptionally well but only in proleague, to take the bottom spot. This month, several new faces were more deserving. Still, he's one to watch out for
More to come later as I find other things to pontificate about!
to be honest it was easy to predict that JD will be on top (after Sea ofc), but I strongly disagree with this and cant except that fact and the only reason for that is JD is nothing more than one class above all top level gamers but to think we can say the same about flash and best as well. JD is not dominant enough for the #1, he is not rolling over ppl left and right like he used to and for me the only reason he is the top is because Flash's form is even more questionable than JD's. Yes, I'm a huge BeSt fan, but you shouldnt be one to notice that he is the only one who is destroying his opponents right now and if he wins the OSL you really shouldnt care who is winning the MSL to decide who is the Best right now
Haha only JD kept his spot , the other strong players such as Flash , Best played like total noobs and lost their spots . Damn wannabes especially that noob BEST who is he kiding beating Luxury will only upgrade him to a lower level .
I personally think that Best deserves the top spot. The "man of the moment" thing has shifted from Flash to Best within the past couple of weeks what with Flash struggling with the mounting schedule demands and with Best basically overcoming all competition he comes across be it the OSL or the proleague.
Another thing, I love Jaedong, but he shouldn't be ranked above Flash and Best in my opinion. Sure he's probably the most skilled out of the three, but the shitty map pool has prevented him from performing as well as the other two. Jaedong has proved his class in the MSL by defeating Hwasin and doing his bit for the team in the proleague despite the map pool, but it doesn't change the fact that there are players out there doing better than him right now.
The rest of the rank I'm not overly supportive of. This has to be your first PR that I've actually disagreed with more or less every single spot, but hey, what do I know?
On July 06 2008 19:21 Samurai- wrote: I thought this rank actually means something, but seeing sea first because he played few games against you , its stupid..
i also disagree with jaedong #1, why? yes flash lost and is out from OSL, but yaedong didnt even get to OSL, so lame.
On July 06 2008 18:27 disciple wrote: to be honest it was easy to predict that JD will be on top (after Sea ofc), but I strongly disagree with this and cant except that fact and the only reason for that is JD is nothing more than one class above all top level gamers but to think we can say the same about flash and best as well. JD is not dominant enough for the #1, he is not rolling over ppl left and right like he used to and for me the only reason he is the top is because Flash's form is even more questionable than JD's. Yes, I'm a huge BeSt fan, but you shouldnt be one to notice that he is the only one who is destroying his opponents right now and if he wins the OSL you really shouldnt care who is winning the MSL to decide who is the Best right now
If both BEST and JD/Flash win their finals , the quality of the games will have the final word in the matter . Best isn't exactly the favourite in the final by a long shot vs July . Versus Luxury he was behind all games in the earlier parts of it . If he gets behind like that vs July he will get rolled even with Sauran style . I don't expect 1 base tech to work vs July in enyways . BEST should be wise to take his natural quickly before July gets on 3 - 4 bases .Maps favour zerg and July should win it . If by a chance BEST takes the final and JD kills Flash in MSL i don't exactly know who should be #1 , because the maps are TvZ biased in the MSL also , so game quality will have the final word .
what are your thoughts on sea.really? it looks like he lost against mind today, i haven't seen it, but he looked really good against lomo, best, and hery.
On July 06 2008 19:33 kemoryan wrote: Guys guys, Sea is num. 1 not because of his performance in games, it's something else so don't look at it as if Sea played better than the rest.
Power rank actaully starts in 2nd position.
sea performed an impromptu live show match just for teamliquid againt nony and uhh other good person i cant remember i think it was JF and even engaged in conversion with us everyday people his power rank slot is very much deserved, but i will say he obviously knew the powerrank update was coming and buttered up to TL for rank lol jkjkjk
BackHo deserves something for getting his game together in a few crucial games. You don't just walk into an OSL semi final. Even getting into the OSL requires beating several other contenders for a spot, I think it's time you acknowledged that BackHo has a knack for winning games of Starcraft vs pretty high level opponents. The rest I'm not unhappy with. Your #1 is a break from the rules of the ranking but I endorse it because Sea was willing to play me and it was fucking awesome.
On July 06 2008 19:41 Visions wrote: And thus, the reason no one cares about TLPR anymore.
Or ever did.
The hundreds of comments it gets disagree with you. Although to be honest I don't see why I'm bothering to refute you because you've already been banned for excessive stupidity.
An excellent power rank for this month. I agree with almost everything. Maybe I could nitpick a couple slots here and there but I haven't kept up to date in last month's games to really back anything up. I will leave it at that.
And yes, I agree, Sea is definitely awesome. Since WWI I have become an even bigger fan of him.
On July 06 2008 20:18 RO.Word wrote: Lomo's entry: ". But, this ain't about feelings, it's about StarCraft"
Slightly contridictory to Sea's love letter power rank spot, based on the fact he stooped down to play a few foreigners.
stop nitpicking
To everyone: I don't care what you think about the 'legitimacy' of this or anything even remotely related. It is MY prerogative if I want to have a little fun one month out of many months of doing this. If you have a problem with it, don't fucking post
After I read the reasoning behind Sea being number 1, I am actually ok with it. Calling him the greatest Starcraft player ever is a bit much though. Perhaps the nicest/friendliest to foreign fans.
nah i completely agree with this month's power rank.
though I really honestly think Jaedong should not be listed above Flash. but otherwise I am very happy with the current results. Sea is a complete baller.
jaedong's ZvT: shaky? maybe a little. better than anybody else's? yeah.
i think it's obvious that JD, Flash, and Best are above the rest of the players, with JD and Flash slightly above best. I love best, and his PvP is unparalleled, but i don't think he's at JD or Flash's level. he has really been tearing it up lately, though, and i'm rabid with anticipation for the OSL finals.
fingers crossed for much to get a game from jaedong in MSL :/
Yeah lols what the fuck is up with all of you bitching around . Sea is #1 in the PR but the best players of the month starts below him not that Sea doesn't have what it takes in skills to be #1 thought . At least FS doesn't hate on the players in the PR this time around not like Stork , JangBI and Kal last months , but that is done for a funnier and more enjoyable PR . And seriously i think Sea deserves to be #1 on the PR because he took time from his life to support the cause of TL . The games with Sea where Artosis was commentating were great reminded me of the TSL
Sea really grew on me after BWWI. I've always thought that he was a top-tier T (his stats speak for himself, actually) but being such a baller is icing on the cake. Much respect to Sea. (and MJY for that matter. Here's hoping that being on CJ's B-Team translates to monster Starleague performances)
I agree with Jaedong being listed above Flash though. Flash kinda lost it down the stretch. 3-1 over Hwasin 4-pool or no (actually the 4-pool was a strategic victory, punishing Hwasin for predictable/greedy play) > 3-2 over Lomo easy, considering the fact that TvT is Flash's strongest MU. July back in the PR is all good too; it's going to be tough to choose between him and BeSt as I'm a fan of both players.
Terrific write-up on Sea[Shield]. When I first clicked on the page and saw Sea on top, my reaction was close to "I can't believe he did it, that's so cool!" but the way you based your opinion putting Sea on top was even more 'cool'. Because I simply do not like Kal and I love Julyzerg, I probably would have switched their ranks. Other than that, the log wait for this Power-rank seems to have paid off. It seems spot on.
I'll never stop putting Sea in my 'Favorite to win OSL & MSL'... always I tag him as the freaking best player around, and he always manages to shatter it somehow :-) Still lots of <3
Well skillwise this PR is Seas 1st spot is a joke. but if we take PR into another level, Sea defiintly deserves PR no1 considering him embracing the fans of TL.net, and since its TL.net PR, its cute. But if you honestly think Sea surpasses Jaedong/Flash/Best, then you are ofc beeing ignorant of ur fanboy eyes. But PR has no rules, so why not?
Back to the real no1, I disagree with Jaedong. I personally think Best has definitly shown his skill, not to mention that overall, his skill is soo good, quality in mu sense way(his PvZ isnt that good) but overall in micro/macro, that is shown in his imbalance mirror mu so clearly and that he can lift his weaker MUs so much with that overall top instincts. This month will be Bests month for sure. Flash has lost games, some of them he didnt play that well, and he deserves to drop, top 3 are defintly close, very close.
Anyhow, solid PR this time. However, some of these new players, like Lomo and Kal, I dont see them take a bo5 games vs solid players like for instance Firebathero, Sea, Midas, Stork. They are all very strong in proleagues. But it takes so little, few games, to fall out of the qualifing rounds to OSL and MSL in order to get "the slump stamp". Etc Stork vs Kal BWWI, Stork wins. Also, July made it trough in MSL, he isnt top skillz like flash, jaedong or best, but i think hard practice of old skillz, preparing for games is everything when you get this far. However, when it comes to top play, I predict Best will take out July without much problem in the finals. There is such a skill difference imo. Luxurys sets of games shows this aswell. I dont see his game sense beeing that strong, or him getting sick win streak cuz of his skillz, he is way to unstable for that, but his preperation for maps and the fact that he made it this far in leagues, is exelent, he showed that in the games vs Flash, he totally had a supperior buildorder and plan for the maps. However, he was very nervous in his games vs Best (the way he ran in and out after every game), he really felt the pressure, and lost partly because of that I believe. I hope you get my point.
For the sake of discussion (and because I voted for July, haha), I say that BeSt will have a hard time (a very hard time) against July. As you said, BeSt's PvZ is shaky. On the other hand, July's strongest matchup is ZvP, plus he has a very strong low-econ + micro game. I'm sure July will have something prepared against BeSt's strong macro style.
I find Luxury stronger than July. And he failed vs Best. Will be an exiting series, and hopefully they will be epic long games, and not 4pool or cheeses that ends within 10mins. I hope for the sake of Julyzerg that he is in good shape, cuz Backhos play was a joke. If the games go over 20mins each, Best will take the series.
Nah but seriously, its a nice PR, I think I agree with JD Flash and Bests positions, however Id put Much in Lomos place and switch Kal and forGG, but thats kinda minor =)
Haha, loving Sea at #1. I would've guessed you would have just written something like "What? He asked for it!" though, and for the rest of the spots put "Didn't ask for #1 PR" for everyone else.
This is a shitty power rank. Besides the joke of Sea, where the hell is much? Why is july and luxury so god damn low? I understand july not being really high, but he deserves seven or something for a FINAL. Luxury went pretty far...choked...but you still cant deny his play. FORGG is too high all together, he still can only play two match ups you know, well. I have no clue why Hwasin dropped so brutally, other players who got knocked out of the msl kept their positions or were actually rewarded for it. For the third month in a row, I am forced to say, this is a shitty power rank. :\
I totally agree with FS this PR, besides winning hearts, Sea is the best way to make a good top between JD, Flash and Best, coz thet were shaky and none deserved full no 1PR. Good for Lomo being in, he did hard times to Flash, soon he'll be nomber one (3-4 months). Good for July hes back.
All i want ot say about this PR is i would put Midas and Stork for CNBC. Midas for strong PL and 3 of 3 aces won, and Stork for his win on BWWI and his succes on GSL. after all he is the reason Khan is so high on stats, winning in PL, not like Savior does for CJ...
On July 06 2008 19:21 Samurai- wrote: I thought this rank actually means something, but seeing sea first because he played few games against you , its stupid..
i also disagree with jaedong #1, why? yes flash lost and is out from OSL, but yaedong didnt even get to OSL, so lame.
bah, i guess i wont read this bull anymore..
Sea being #1 is just a small joke by Steve..don't be such an clueless idiot about it...
Well look at it this way, Jaedong has been playing a little better than Flash last month
Flash's TvT - Incredible but shaky lately. Did you see his recent TvT vs Lomo? He barely beat Lomo Flash's TvZ - Solid but lost to Luxury recently Flash's TvP - Solid but lost to Best recently
Jaedong's ZvT - Solid since he wiped Hwasin recently Jaedong's ZvP - Incredible. Recently, he beat Much, Lucifer, Kal. He even 3-2 Bisu, who is known for his godly PvZ. Jaedong's ZvZ - Too godly. The only game he lost verse oversky and he's beat every other zerg for this entire year. Even the old legends like July, Savior, and Yellow are no match for his ZvZ
From looking at it this way, doesn't Jaedong look like he's performed much better than Flash?
Flash tvt: Incredible and was pushed far by lomo Flash tvz: Solid but lost to luxury Flast Tvp: solid as hell and just went off an 11 game win streak
Jaedong: Zvt: Solid but just ended a really bad streak where we went 2-10 or something disgusting like that Jaedong ZvP: Very solid, but its not like hes really been tested lately Jaedong zvz: same
On July 07 2008 00:57 ScarFace wrote: This is a shitty power rank. Besides the joke of Sea, where the hell is much? Why is july and luxury so god damn low? I understand july not being really high, but he deserves seven or something for a FINAL. Luxury went pretty far...choked...but you still cant deny his play. FORGG is too high all together, he still can only play two match ups you know, well. I have no clue why Hwasin dropped so brutally, other players who got knocked out of the msl kept their positions or were actually rewarded for it. For the third month in a row, I am forced to say, this is a shitty power rank. :\
Hwasin is called a TvZ specialist and i don't know but this is maybe his strongest MU and on maps that completely favour terrans you would expect him to do something better . Kal did perform better then him and his series was really close versus a very strong TvP player .In Much's case he has played a few games after his lost to BEST and he did pretty poor losing to Ganzi again in PL and to JD also i don't know if he has won enything this past month .Much is an underdog versus JD but he at least should be mentioned if not in the PR in the CBNC ...
On July 06 2008 23:15 ThePhan2m wrote: I find Luxury stronger than July. And he failed vs Best. Will be an exiting series, and hopefully they will be epic long games, and not 4pool or cheeses that ends within 10mins. I hope for the sake of Julyzerg that he is in good shape, cuz Backhos play was a joke. If the games go over 20mins each, Best will take the series.
Lux is the stronger player at the moment, agreed, but as far as ZvP goes, July is way, way better than Lux hands down. The "and he failed vs BeSt, what more of July?" argument can be used if Lux' ZvP was top-notch, but it isn't the case here. July's low-econ, macro-intensive, harass-based play can be an effective counter to BeSt's macro-oriented play. Common sense dictates that it's stupid to allow someone like BeSt to go into macro overdrive; that'd be parallel to people back in the day allowing oov to enter Cheater Terran mode. As already mentioned, BeSt's PvZ mechanics are still questionable, inverse to how July's ZvP mechanics and game sense are extremely sharp. If the games go over 20 minutes, BeSt's chances of winning go up exponentially, I agree. The thing is, July won't allow that to happen.
On July 07 2008 01:38 ScarFace wrote: Thats not accurate.
Flash tvt: Incredible and was pushed far by lomo Flash tvz: Solid but lost to luxury Flast Tvp: solid as hell and just went off an 11 game win streak
Jaedong: Zvt: Solid but just ended a really bad streak where we went 2-10 or something disgusting like that Jaedong ZvP: Very solid, but its not like hes really been tested lately Jaedong zvz: same
WOW JAEDONG's ZvZ hasn't been tested ??? You might say that for his ZvP although he did demolish Much in PL but freaking ZvZ it is the same as saing that BEST's PvP hasn't been tested ... ??? And we don't watch streaks that are dating from when the season started , but more his performance in June .Flash has droped games in all MU's last month i'm not saying he is not solid in every MU , the only series were he looked outclassed was vs Luxury especially the second game he looked bad .After that he started droping games vs P and Ts .
Jaedong has been looking better than Flash lately, and seems to be coming out of his little month of uncertainty, while Flash is going into a small period of being beatable. Watching his PL games, he seems to be playing with the same great mechanics, but he is lacking the confidence that Jaedong seems to have refound.
I mean, Jaedong pulled off great come-backs on Lomo in the Classic, he dismantled Hwasin (a TvZ GOD) in MSL, and he was eliminated from OSL by cheese which could have taken out anyone doing that BO.
BeSt isn't the only player who destroyed people in a Starleague, Flash is doing great as hell in MSL as well as Jaedong, and they could both easily make it to finals. BeSt could even lose OSL, as Luxury gave him a hard time.
Hwasin is a TvZ expert, but his other matchups aren't good enough to warrant him a new spot. I would put BackHo higher, but it is a matter of taste.
On July 07 2008 01:38 ScarFace wrote: Thats not accurate.
Flash tvt: Incredible and was pushed far by lomo Flash tvz: Solid but lost to luxury Flast Tvp: solid as hell and just went off an 11 game win streak
Jaedong: Zvt: Solid but just ended a really bad streak where we went 2-10 or something disgusting like that Jaedong ZvP: Very solid, but its not like hes really been tested lately Jaedong zvz: same
WOW JAEDONG's ZvZ hasn't been tested ??? You might say that for his ZvP although he did demolish Much in PL but freaking ZvZ it is the same as saing that BEST's PvP hasn't been tested ... ??? And we don't watch streaks that are dating from when the season started , but more his performance in June .Flash has droped games in all MU's last month i'm not saying he is not solid in every MU , the only series were he looked outclassed was vs Luxury especially the second game he looked bad .After that he started droping games vs P and Ts .
Depends on how ScarFace defines "tested" and how different it is from how you define "tested". I think this is ScarFace's definition of "tested":
Jaedong's last 10 ZvZ matches:
815 on Blue Storm: Win oDin on Katrina SE: Win OversKy on Blue Storm: Loss ZerO on Othello: Win ZerO on Katrina SE: Win OversKy on Andromeda: Win maGma on Katrina SE: Win Haran on Andromeda: Win Luxury on Blue Storm: Win Luxury on Zodiac: Win
Lux is the only player out of those listed that could provide Jaedong with any challenge (and that set was played way back in the GOMTV MSL). After that it's a slew of instant wins (Haran? ZerO? He even beat 815 on Blue Storm FFS). So yeah, I'd say Jaedong's ZvZ hasn't really been tested as of late. Doesn't change the fact that he's godly in the MU, it's just that he just needs more challengers of note.
ForGG is way to unstable, Kal isnt that good either, he didnt show his power in BWWI. Both these players should have been behind players like Hwasin and Luxury.
On July 07 2008 01:38 ScarFace wrote: Thats not accurate.
Flash tvt: Incredible and was pushed far by lomo Flash tvz: Solid but lost to luxury Flast Tvp: solid as hell and just went off an 11 game win streak
Jaedong: Zvt: Solid but just ended a really bad streak where we went 2-10 or something disgusting like that Jaedong ZvP: Very solid, but its not like hes really been tested lately Jaedong zvz: same
WOW JAEDONG's ZvZ hasn't been tested ??? You might say that for his ZvP although he did demolish Much in PL but freaking ZvZ it is the same as saing that BEST's PvP hasn't been tested ... ??? And we don't watch streaks that are dating from when the season started , but more his performance in June .Flash has droped games in all MU's last month i'm not saying he is not solid in every MU , the only series were he looked outclassed was vs Luxury especially the second game he looked bad .After that he started droping games vs P and Ts .
His zvz hasnt been tested in a b03 or a b05 against the very best zerg players. Undoubtedly hes brilliant, but of course something is lacking when hasn't done a long series since his play against Luxury.
On July 07 2008 00:57 ScarFace wrote: This is a shitty power rank. Besides the joke of Sea, where the hell is much? Why is july and luxury so god damn low? I understand july not being really high, but he deserves seven or something for a FINAL. Luxury went pretty far...choked...but you still cant deny his play. FORGG is too high all together, he still can only play two match ups you know, well. I have no clue why Hwasin dropped so brutally, other players who got knocked out of the msl kept their positions or were actually rewarded for it. For the third month in a row, I am forced to say, this is a shitty power rank. :\
Hwasin is called a TvZ specialist and i don't know but this is maybe his strongest MU and on maps that completely favour terrans you would expect him to do something better . Kal did perform better then him and his series was really close versus a very strong TvP player .In Much's case he has played a few games after his lost to BEST and he did pretty poor losing to Ganzi again in PL and to JD also i don't know if he has won enything this past month .Much is an underdog versus JD but he at least should be mentioned if not in the PR in the CBNC ...
I agree, Hwasin was expected to do better- hell he was expected to win. Jaedong showed his zvt is still world class when its not a bo1, so Hwasin getting dismanteled is like someone losing 3-1 to savior, Flash, Oov, etc, at their height. As in, its understandable. Hwasin got destroyed but did good game 1 and 2 [though I admit he made many mistakes game 2] reacted poorly game 3. I didn't watch game 4, but I heard Jaedong was just on another level. Nothing to fault Hwasin against MAYJORLY. Rather, something to credit Jaedong with. Jaedongs play was great, Hwasins was not bad.
As to Much: Ok he lost 0-2 to the strongest pvp player...and? He played great game 1, minor mistake lost him game 2. He demolished Free on the other hand, and dropped a single pl game. As FS said LAST MONTH, pl means shit in comparison. If your winning in individual leagues- which he IS- then you get the credit you deserve. Much will lose, but thats a non issue. Because RIGHT NOW, at this time the power rank is issued, Much is still alive and kicking in the msl and is looking good.
are you freaking shitting me the man of the moment went from Flash to Best? the man of the moment is july. its freaking do or die 2nd to have golden mouse.
Sea is Sea, and since none of the other guys are Sea, they can't be #1.
Best has a shaky matchup, Jaedong doesn't, Jaedong > Best.
Jaedong was looking shaky, but every shaky loss he had, he came back with 2 or 3 very not shaky wins where he completely corrected whatever had him shaky before. Flash is very good but not perfect anymore, and he's beginning to look shaky. Since Jaedong is going up and becoming less shaky, and Flash is going down, appearing more shaky, Jaedong > Flash.
Backho sucks. I don't know how he got to the semis.
Hwasin sucks, he's lucky to get 10th place.
Forgg beat kal, so it makes sense he's above Kal. Kal has been pretty strong lately, so it makes sense that he's fairly high up. Above Luxury? I'm not sure about that, but if Luxury can't control his nerves just to win a semis after going 2-0, then he's not going to go anywhere til he fixes that.
I feel July could be lower, but who cares. It's July. And he just came out of slumping for like thee years to going into the finals of the OSL.
I like Lomo, but I agree on his placement because he hasn't imo done anything huge like the guys above him. He pushed Flash yes, but isn't tvt both their best mu? And wasn't it just Flash playing bad compared to his best, and not really Lomo playing great? Lomo might've been playing his best, but Flash's best is way above Lomo's best, so it doesn't seem too impressive to me that he went 2-3, because he still lost.
What a dumb and pathetic PR that is. Although I didn't agree with many others too but at least you brought some real arguments into your write-ups. This, on the other side, is just plain ridicolous. If it isn't please tell me what Sea has DONE to get a no.1 spot? And no, adding you to his friendslist on west is not the kind of action I mean.
Has more heart than any other progamer, lol. As if you knew how much heart the ppl have, you seriously seem to be nothing more than a little fanboy, using the TLPR for his love-letters. Wow, I never thought you were such a nuthugger. -.-
On July 07 2008 05:11 Pinselstrich wrote: What a dumb and pathetic PR that is. Although I didn't agree with many others too but at least you brought some real arguments into your write-ups. This, on the other side, is just plain ridicolous. If it isn't please tell me what Sea has DONE to get a no.1 spot? And no, adding you to his friendslist on west is not the kind of action I mean.
Has more heart than any other progamer, lol. As if you knew how much heart the ppl have, you seriously seem to be nothing more than a little fanboy, using the TLPR for his love-letters. Wow, I never thought you were such a nuthugger. -.-
Sea made an honest attempt to outreach to the foreign community of StarCraft, and if more Korean Progamers followed suit the progaming scene would be worlds better. Besides, it has been recognized that he is not the best player in terms of skill, although he is a PL beast.
Sea deserves recognition. Period. I don't find it "ridicolous" at all.
Sea is more than deserving of phrases. He has opened new doors for the foreigner community! This isn't about fanboyism. A good contributor/innovation for e-sports is just as good. We're taking a step towards progress.
Best is still great, not much has changed from last month. He came out of a grueling series with Luxury with a berth in the OSL final, where this Royal Road-walking phenom will face a two-time OSL champion.
This isn't Best's first OSL. He lost to Stork in the Bacchus OSL. (I understand your sentence to mean that Best is currently walking the Royal Road? If it means something else, sorry)
Nice rankings though. I agree with them for the most part.
On July 07 2008 05:11 Pinselstrich wrote: What a dumb and pathetic PR that is. Although I didn't agree with many others too but at least you brought some real arguments into your write-ups. This, on the other side, is just plain ridicolous. If it isn't please tell me what Sea has DONE to get a no.1 spot? And no, adding you to his friendslist on west is not the kind of action I mean.
Has more heart than any other progamer, lol. As if you knew how much heart the ppl have, you seriously seem to be nothing more than a little fanboy, using the TLPR for his love-letters. Wow, I never thought you were such a nuthugger. -.-
Fortunately fakesteve wrote that Much would be 11 if there were 11 spaces and went on to justify why. This means you have a power rank of Jaedong, FlaSh, BeSt, fOrGG, Kal, Luxury, JulyZerg, Lomo, Hwasin and Much, complete with all the usual reasoning and comments. Sea being #1 is joke, it is recognition of how cool Sea is being to us and does not in any way affect the rest of the ranking which is as professional and well thought out (if lacking in BackHos) as ever. I'd tell you to check you ancestry for Romanian blood but I just don't think that goes far enough. Instead check your ancestry for endemic incidents of incest, I suspect you have only two grandparents.
On July 07 2008 05:27 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Sea made an honest attempt to outreach to the foreign community of StarCraft, and if more Korean Progamers followed suit the progaming scene would be worlds better. Besides, it has been recognized that he is not the best player in terms of skill, although he is a PL beast.
Sea deserves recognition. Period. I don't find it "ridicolous" at all.
I completely agree, he deserves recognition, but July or Flash or Best don't? That's what I'm questioning, I don't want to take anything away from Sea, but IMO it's disrespectful to players better than him that are practicing just as hard as he is and playing with "heart" just as much as he does... or even more. It's nice that the foreign community is treated so well by him, but that's sympathy and has nothing to do with power in regard of skillful play. As I see it fakesteve tried to put the #1 player skillwise in the #1 PR spot until now, so I don't understand what being a nice person has to do with. But yeah, nevermind, it's just the TLPR. Would be nice if tomorrow I'll read "Shine kespa ranked #1! He saved a school bus from falling over a cliff! He has a great heart and put his life in danger. He's the best EVER.".
@Kwark: I don't understand why you are flaming me for my opinion. Please leave my family out of this, as you don't know who I am. It's easy to hide behind a keyboard, so please don't insult me. As for the romanian part, the joke is getting old, don't you think? ^^
You were flaming a perfectly good power rank because it put Sea #1 for reasons other than skill. If you want a skill based power rank you just had to look at ranks 2-11 (11 being Much). It really isn't that hard. And yet you completely failed to read it and just dismissed it out of hand. If you actually looked then you'd see that it is a skill based power rank with Sea as a joke in 1st. Just ignore Sea like everyone else who can work out that Sea is not really the strongest player in the world has.
p.s. julyzerg has been in 5 OSL finals iirc, 2:2 in them [win over iloveoov, goodfriend, loss to julyzerg, iloveoov]
You mean wins over REACH (Gillette, his win over Oov was semifinals), GoodFriend (EVER04). Losses over NaDa (IOPS) and Oov (Shinhan05). I'm not very surprised to see that it was LR who forgets Reach was one of the ones who lost to July in an OSL final. lol!
As to those who are complaining about Sea being #1. SUCK IT UP. This isn't KeSPA, this is Team Liquid. We don't go by points, we don't go by wins. We go by our gut feeling and the impression the players have given. And Sea has shown a lot of TL <3 the past week, so FS decides to reward him in a small way. Got a problem with that? Too.Fucking.Bad.
On July 07 2008 05:27 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Sea made an honest attempt to outreach to the foreign community of StarCraft, and if more Korean Progamers followed suit the progaming scene would be worlds better. Besides, it has been recognized that he is not the best player in terms of skill, although he is a PL beast.
Sea deserves recognition. Period. I don't find it "ridicolous" at all.
I completely agree, he deserves recognition, but July or Flash or Best don't? That's what I'm questioning, I don't want to take anything away from Sea, but IMO it's disrespectful to players better than him that are practicing just as hard as he is and playing with "heart" just as much as he does... or even more. It's nice that the foreign community is treated so well by him, but that's sympathy and has nothing to do with power in regard of skillful play. As I see it fakesteve tried to put the #1 player skillwise in the #1 PR spot until now, so I don't understand what being a nice person has to do with. But yeah, nevermind, it's just the TLPR. Would be nice if tomorrow I'll read "Shine kespa ranked #1! He saved a school bus from falling over a cliff! He has a great heart and put his life in danger. He's the best EVER.".
@Kwark: I don't understand why you are flaming me for my opinion. Please leave my family out of this, as you don't know who I am. It's easy to hide behind a keyboard, so please don't insult me. As for the romanian part, the joke is getting old, don't you think? ^^
ot l
It's not like the other players aren't reognized. This is just a one month nod to Sea for his outreach to the foreign community and TL. I doubt Jaedong would be offended.
I'm kind of amazed by some of the angry reactions this PR is getting. Ranks 2-Much are quite well justified, and there's nothing wrong at all with giving Sea thanks for doing something he didn't have to do in the least.
I'm also kind of amazed that Steve hasn't whipped out the ban hammer more.
most of the koreans would open the doors to the foreigners if they would know to speak english and if they would have more time... their job is to play starcraft, not to hang out on west/east... and meet new friends online... if i have to play starcraft for 12 hours on a day i would like to meet real friends in real life when i would have free time..
this PR is here to give an opinion from foreign community for pro players - their skill and results.. this PR is insulting for players beneath sea... i mean, imagine jaedong or flash reading this.. they would say ' wtf, foreigners are so ignorant, they know shit about SC when they think that player without any success is better then us. I'm glad i'm not talking to them ' -.-
On July 07 2008 08:47 purgerinho wrote: ban hammer? for what, justified critics? funny...
most of the koreans would open the doors to the foreigners if they would know to speak english and if they would have more time... their job is to play starcraft, not to hang out on west/east... and meet new friends online... if i have to play starcraft for 12 hours on a day i would like to meet real friends in real life when i would have free time..
this PR is here to give an opinion from foreign community for pro players - their skill and results.. this PR is insulting for players beneath sea... i mean, imagine jaedong or flash reading this.. they would say ' wtf, foreigners are so ignorant, they know shit about SC when they think that player without any success is better then us. I'm glad i'm not talking to them ' -.-
For ignorance and a bad attitude. Notice there are a few people who said they don't appreciate Sea being #1 who aren't banned~
Best is still great, not much has changed from last month. He came out of a grueling series with Luxury with a berth in the OSL final, where this Royal Road-walking phenom will face a two-time OSL champion.
This isn't Best's first OSL. He lost to Stork in the Bacchus OSL. (I understand your sentence to mean that Best is currently walking the Royal Road? If it means something else, sorry)
Nice rankings though. I agree with them for the most part.
On July 07 2008 00:57 ScarFace wrote: This is a shitty power rank. Besides the joke of Sea, where the hell is much? Why is july and luxury so god damn low? I understand july not being really high, but he deserves seven or something for a FINAL. Luxury went pretty far...choked...but you still cant deny his play. FORGG is too high all together, he still can only play two match ups you know, well. I have no clue why Hwasin dropped so brutally, other players who got knocked out of the msl kept their positions or were actually rewarded for it. For the third month in a row, I am forced to say, this is a shitty power rank. :\
Okay, first of all, mind your manners. This is so close to bordering on rudeness I won't tolerate. This isn't the first time you've been rude about the PR, but you're genuinely discussing the rankings rather than just flippantly telling me to go fuck myself, so there's no real problem. Just be nice okay?
Much is in the CBNC, he'd be 10th on the PR.
Luxury is lower because he didnt play up to the standard at which he would have to during games 4 and 5 of his OSL semifinal. Please understand that Luxury is one of my favourite players, but I simply had to place him lower than other people who have been performing better with more consistency overall.
July isn't higher because all he's really done this OSL is kick the shit out of terrible Protoss players. Once he does something more than that, his placement will change
fOrGG is so high because he is playing really, really well. I'm not sure what else to say to you, watch some of his games.
Hwasin dropped brutally because despite being in-shape and obviously able to play well at the time of his series vs jaedong (look how one-sided game one was), he was completely outclassed by Jaedong. After the second game he didn't even put up a fight. You want me to reward players for playing terribly just because it happened to be in the MSL round of 8?
Now, let's just talk about you for a moment. Do YOU watch every single pro game every month? Do YOU have six years of experience analyzing professional starcraft? Do YOU appreciate every nuance, every subtlety of the games you watch? I do, that's why I write the Power Rank. If you don't, maybe you aren't in a position to call anything "shitty", hmm?
But seriously Steve, I know you don't like BackHo but the man got results. Beating Jaedong could be written off as cheese but he did more than that to reach the semi final. What has Much done this month that places him above BackHo? In fact, has Much ever been in a semi final? BackHo is simply playing at a higher level.
On July 07 2008 09:28 Kwark wrote: But seriously Steve, I know you don't like BackHo but the man got results. Beating Jaedong could be written off as cheese but he did more than that to reach the semi final. What has Much done this month that places him above BackHo? In fact, has Much ever been in a semi final? BackHo is simply playing at a higher level.
I'm going to rewatch the semifinal (I watched it on a second screen while playing bw on the main screen) before I renew my campaign for BackHo. If he did his usual and did a perfectly executed stove (or some other awful strategy) and promptly got owned by a "lolwut?" July then I'll keep maintaining that BackHo is a genius who made a vow to a dying mentor on their deathbed that he would never conform to the standard ideas of strategy and decision making. If however he was just outclassed, despite playing properly, then I guess I'll have to let it pass.
On July 07 2008 09:37 Kwark wrote: I'm going to rewatch the semifinal (I watched it on a second screen while playing bw on the main screen) before I renew my campaign for BackHo. If he did his usual and did a perfectly executed stove (or some other awful strategy) and promptly got owned by a "lolwut?" July then I'll keep maintaining that BackHo is a genius who made a vow to a dying mentor on their deathbed that he would never conform to the standard ideas of strategy and decision making. If however he was just outclassed, despite playing properly, then I guess I'll have to let it pass.
Early game on Hwarangdo. Nexus first build was very bold but absolutely correct. He correctly read Julys fast drone scout as a 12 hatch 11 pool build afraid of cheese and did the most optimal counter completely blind. I like. Also the probe vs drone micro was pretty nice. Solid scouting of the 2 hatch hydra den with a late third. The scout probe died 6:58 into the vod, pretty much as the sair came out. Reacts well to the scouting information with cannons against a possible hydra break and a fastish robo. Keeps sairing against a possible muta switch and racks up 4 or so ovi kills. To be quite honest I'm surprised he loses this game right now. Obs out early and the lurk contain completely fails to contain. He evens up the base count and July has a weak 4 hatchery. Speedlot and reaver tech looking secure. Holy fucking God what was that!?! When the scourge kill your corsairs don't go allin with reaverzee. When the muta move in over your zee and you have cannons at your 3rd and equal base count don't engage. Just back off because you don't need to fight, you're already winning. And for gods sake don't attack move your zealots into lurkscourgeovi.
Steve. BackHo outplayed the fuck out of July for a good 10 minutes of this vod. 3 bases each. BackHo had better grades, more production, more income and map control. This game backs up my theory that as soon as a C- player sits him down and explains that the lurkscourgeovi combo is strong vs speedlots because it kills the observers he'll be unstoppable.
On July 07 2008 09:07 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: Now, let's just talk about you for a moment. Do YOU watch every single pro game every month? Do YOU have six years of experience analyzing professional starcraft? Do YOU appreciate every nuance, every subtlety of the games you watch? I do, that's why I write the Power Rank. If you don't, maybe you aren't in a position to call anything "shitty", hmm?
On July 07 2008 09:58 Kwark wrote: Early game on Hwarangdo. Nexus first build was very bold but absolutely correct. He correctly read Julys fast drone scout as a 12 hatch 11 pool build afraid of cheese and did the most optimal counter completely blind. I like. Also the probe vs drone micro was pretty nice. Solid scouting of the 2 hatch hydra den with a late third. The scout probe died 6:58 into the vod, pretty much as the sair came out. Reacts well to the scouting information with cannons against a possible hydra break and a fastish robo. Keeps sairing against a possible muta switch and racks up 4 or so ovi kills. To be quite honest I'm surprised he loses this game right now. Obs out early and the lurk contain completely fails to contain. He evens up the base count and July has a weak 4 hatchery. Speedlot and reaver tech looking secure. Holy fucking God what was that!?! When the scourge kill your corsairs don't go allin with reaverzee. When the muta move in over your zee and you have cannons at your 3rd and equal base count don't engage. Just back off because you don't need to fight, you're already winning. And for gods sake don't attack move your zealots into lurkscourgeovi.
Steve. BackHo outplayed the fuck out of July for a good 10 minutes of this vod. 3 bases each. BackHo had better grades, more production, more income and map control. This game backs up my theory that as soon as a C- player sits him down and explains that the lurkscourgeovi combo is strong vs speedlots because it kills the observers he'll be unstoppable.
having a build order that counters july's doesn't mean he 'outplayed' july
in fact, since he played like total shit besides having a good build, and july raped him, i don't see where you're coming from
Andromeda game. Opening is standard. I'm not so sure about forge cannon cannon nex vs overpool no gas on a map the size on andromeda but to be honest it's not bad. It's just unambitious. Nice delay of Julys nat. The very fast tech build I can't rate really because PvZ on Andromeda is so variable that I kind of need to see where he's going with this before criticise it. Although his scouting is unsuccessful he still gets information from drone count and lack of 2nd gas and I think he should get marks for trying. Although I may be being too generous here. The third cannon at his nat and the zealots I'm not keen on because he scouted that July wasn't trying anything aggressive so he should have been teching faster. He's delayed his 3rd a lot in favour of a mass speedzee timing expo hunt. Also delayed his templar tech, a decision I agree with because with speedovis the speed July will have and muta tech out there I can't see darksair killing Julys 4th. I think BackHos army was actually stronger when July cracked his nat. It was excellent decision making on Julys part. BackHo wasn't in a bad spot. His decisions were pretty good. He had rights units at the right time. What he lacked was information. July was in the process of scattering his speedovis across the map and saw BackHo divide his forces, BackHo had no map vision and didn't see July move out. I'm not going to criticise BackHo at all for this game because quite frankly I cannot fault his play. In hindsight he should have had a probe near Julys base so when July moved out he could redeploy his forces. But his build was fine. His macro, good. His decision making good. What happened was that one of the best players ever saw a 10 second window of opportunity and simply executed him in it. BackHo did not disappoint this game, it was just one of those things. That said, he also didn't do something utterly retarded and throw away an otherwise won game so this conclusion goes against my BackHo secret genius theory.
On July 07 2008 09:58 Kwark wrote: Early game on Hwarangdo. Nexus first build was very bold but absolutely correct. He correctly read Julys fast drone scout as a 12 hatch 11 pool build afraid of cheese and did the most optimal counter completely blind. I like. Also the probe vs drone micro was pretty nice. Solid scouting of the 2 hatch hydra den with a late third. The scout probe died 6:58 into the vod, pretty much as the sair came out. Reacts well to the scouting information with cannons against a possible hydra break and a fastish robo. Keeps sairing against a possible muta switch and racks up 4 or so ovi kills. To be quite honest I'm surprised he loses this game right now. Obs out early and the lurk contain completely fails to contain. He evens up the base count and July has a weak 4 hatchery. Speedlot and reaver tech looking secure. Holy fucking God what was that!?! When the scourge kill your corsairs don't go allin with reaverzee. When the muta move in over your zee and you have cannons at your 3rd and equal base count don't engage. Just back off because you don't need to fight, you're already winning. And for gods sake don't attack move your zealots into lurkscourgeovi.
Steve. BackHo outplayed the fuck out of July for a good 10 minutes of this vod. 3 bases each. BackHo had better grades, more production, more income and map control. This game backs up my theory that as soon as a C- player sits him down and explains that the lurkscourgeovi combo is strong vs speedlots because it kills the observers he'll be unstoppable.
having a build order that counters july's doesn't mean he 'outplayed' july
in fact, since he played like total shit besides having a good build, and july raped him, i don't see where you're coming from
He didn't just luck into a better build order. He read July correctly and countered him appropriately. When BackHo's 3rd base went down July was a long way behind. A long way behind as a consequence of BackHo making better decisions for the duration of the game. I contend that if BackHo didn't fight the retarded battle involving speedlots without observers against lurkers, instead retreating to his cannons which I do not believe July could have broken, he would have won. He would certainly have been in a stronger position.
If I played July and he got into a hugely advantageous position and then insisted on fighting darksair with massling and threw it away you would not say I raped him. You would say that July threw it away with a tactical error. The same happened this game.
On July 07 2008 10:22 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: Again, he got straight raped
Not making a very convincing argument! You can't get enough points for having an average build order to make the PR
The second game wasn't really long enough to judge anything from. BackHo didn't make any real mistakes. July saw a hole in the armour and struck instantly with everything he had. And that sense is why he's a starleague champion. But I'm not going to blame BackHo for losing to that.
On July 07 2008 09:58 Kwark wrote: Early game on Hwarangdo. Nexus first build was very bold but absolutely correct. He correctly read Julys fast drone scout as a 12 hatch 11 pool build afraid of cheese and did the most optimal counter completely blind. I like. Also the probe vs drone micro was pretty nice. Solid scouting of the 2 hatch hydra den with a late third. The scout probe died 6:58 into the vod, pretty much as the sair came out. Reacts well to the scouting information with cannons against a possible hydra break and a fastish robo. Keeps sairing against a possible muta switch and racks up 4 or so ovi kills. To be quite honest I'm surprised he loses this game right now. Obs out early and the lurk contain completely fails to contain. He evens up the base count and July has a weak 4 hatchery. Speedlot and reaver tech looking secure. Holy fucking God what was that!?! When the scourge kill your corsairs don't go allin with reaverzee. When the muta move in over your zee and you have cannons at your 3rd and equal base count don't engage. Just back off because you don't need to fight, you're already winning. And for gods sake don't attack move your zealots into lurkscourgeovi.
Steve. BackHo outplayed the fuck out of July for a good 10 minutes of this vod. 3 bases each. BackHo had better grades, more production, more income and map control. This game backs up my theory that as soon as a C- player sits him down and explains that the lurkscourgeovi combo is strong vs speedlots because it kills the observers he'll be unstoppable.
having a build order that counters july's doesn't mean he 'outplayed' july
in fact, since he played like total shit besides having a good build, and july raped him, i don't see where you're coming from
He didn't just luck into a better build order. He read July correctly and countered him appropriately. When BackHo's 3rd base went down July was a long way behind. A long way behind as a consequence of BackHo making better decisions for the duration of the game. I contend that if BackHo didn't fight the retarded battle involving speedlots without observers against lurkers, instead retreating to his cannons which I do not believe July could have broken, he would have won. He would certainly have been in a stronger position.
If I played July and he got into a hugely advantageous position and then insisted on fighting darksair with massling and threw it away you would not say I raped him. You would say that July threw it away with a tactical error. The same happened this game.
Look, most any protoss can properly react to the simplistic builds that July does (his skill is in the execution). Losing an advantage like that through awful AWFUL play is a point against backho, not for.
The Troy game he doesn't get any points for. He didn't handle the situation badly and nor did July. But I'm not going to award him points for showing good micro because I expect it of him. Was just one of those games.
On July 07 2008 09:58 Kwark wrote: Early game on Hwarangdo. Nexus first build was very bold but absolutely correct. He correctly read Julys fast drone scout as a 12 hatch 11 pool build afraid of cheese and did the most optimal counter completely blind. I like. Also the probe vs drone micro was pretty nice. Solid scouting of the 2 hatch hydra den with a late third. The scout probe died 6:58 into the vod, pretty much as the sair came out. Reacts well to the scouting information with cannons against a possible hydra break and a fastish robo. Keeps sairing against a possible muta switch and racks up 4 or so ovi kills. To be quite honest I'm surprised he loses this game right now. Obs out early and the lurk contain completely fails to contain. He evens up the base count and July has a weak 4 hatchery. Speedlot and reaver tech looking secure. Holy fucking God what was that!?! When the scourge kill your corsairs don't go allin with reaverzee. When the muta move in over your zee and you have cannons at your 3rd and equal base count don't engage. Just back off because you don't need to fight, you're already winning. And for gods sake don't attack move your zealots into lurkscourgeovi.
Steve. BackHo outplayed the fuck out of July for a good 10 minutes of this vod. 3 bases each. BackHo had better grades, more production, more income and map control. This game backs up my theory that as soon as a C- player sits him down and explains that the lurkscourgeovi combo is strong vs speedlots because it kills the observers he'll be unstoppable.
having a build order that counters july's doesn't mean he 'outplayed' july
in fact, since he played like total shit besides having a good build, and july raped him, i don't see where you're coming from
He didn't just luck into a better build order. He read July correctly and countered him appropriately. When BackHo's 3rd base went down July was a long way behind. A long way behind as a consequence of BackHo making better decisions for the duration of the game. I contend that if BackHo didn't fight the retarded battle involving speedlots without observers against lurkers, instead retreating to his cannons which I do not believe July could have broken, he would have won. He would certainly have been in a stronger position.
If I played July and he got into a hugely advantageous position and then insisted on fighting darksair with massling and threw it away you would not say I raped him. You would say that July threw it away with a tactical error. The same happened this game.
Look, most any protoss can properly react to the simplistic builds that July does (his skill is in the execution). Losing an advantage like that through awful AWFUL play is a point against backho, not for.
But my theory about BackHo has always been that he's a fantastic player held back by his complete lack of understanding of the game. In a kind of Disney underdog fashion in which the gifted youth battles a handicap or fear and eventually overcomes it. BackHo has a mental block regarding good decisions. Throwing away all map control in a battle he couldn't possibly win and didn't have any reason to fight fits right in with that.
Sigh. Of these I'd give him PR points for Games 1 and 2. Game 1 I really liked how he played it up to the point where he remembered he'd bet his life savings on July and had just kind of been getting carried away with winning it. Game 2 I like how he opened and I cannot fault his strategy, macro or decision making. While it is likely he'd have made a game 1 style suicide at some point in game 2 simply because he's BackHo and it's what he does he hadn't done it yet. July winning game 2 the way he did gets July PR points and serious Sense of Star credentials but I'm reluctant to blame BackHo because I don't really think his play was in any way at fault for losing it.
Game 4 is tragic.
Given this mix of games I can't really come to a conclusion. Game 4 is like the opposite of the first two. He's shown absolutely no continuity and leaves me concluding he probably just clicks at random and just happens to be the luckiest man alive.
Lol. Nice storm on the hatchery. Battle at 6 just ends and BackHos army is looking pretty set. Nothing attacking it. A high templar suddenly turns round and storms a hatchery. Not eggs or drones or larva but dead centre on the hatchery.
Like I said, I ADORE BackHo. He makes me smile, just like Rock does. If we're testing the theory that BackHo is an ignorant genius, you have some ground to stand on. If we're testing whether he should be on the PR or not, I must respectfully disagree
Actually I think I'll reassess game 4. On the face of it not going stargate on a map where your natural has a very easily harassable mineral line against the muta harass master where your dragoons can't defend the mineral line sounds bad. And that's because it is. However I really like how July played this. Game 4 BackHo was raped. Maybe a faster robo could have allowed him to hit July before the macro got too strong. But to be honest I doubt it. Julys lurkling use was nice and his early powerdrone, fast crackling and dozens of hatcheries worked well. BackHo was making ground against it but with the guardians taking out his nat it wasn't enough. July makes no stargate pvz on Othello look imba. That said, BackHo made the choice not to go stargate. Given his other builds were pretty solid this surprises me.
i really like the posters giving arguments for players to get into the CBNC perhaps we can do this more in the future or maby even make cases for PR perhaps a thread for PR suggestions? Just a thought i think would be interesting and provide some interactivity but once again its all up to the steve man and theyd only be suggestions hed have final calls
On July 07 2008 00:57 ScarFace wrote: This is a shitty power rank. Besides the joke of Sea, where the hell is much? Why is july and luxury so god damn low? I understand july not being really high, but he deserves seven or something for a FINAL. Luxury went pretty far...choked...but you still cant deny his play. FORGG is too high all together, he still can only play two match ups you know, well. I have no clue why Hwasin dropped so brutally, other players who got knocked out of the msl kept their positions or were actually rewarded for it. For the third month in a row, I am forced to say, this is a shitty power rank. :\
Okay, first of all, mind your manners. This is so close to bordering on rudeness I won't tolerate. This isn't the first time you've been rude about the PR, but you're genuinely discussing the rankings rather than just flippantly telling me to go fuck myself, so there's no real problem. Just be nice okay?
Yeah sorry, I am a little more hostile on this site than regularly, because the site in general is most hostile. Though I guess moderation is trying to turn that around.
On July 07 2008 09:07 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: Much is in the CBNC, he'd be 10th on the PR.
Well heres my problem here, I don't mind Much dropping. Personally I think hes more deserving of a spot than others above him but hey. What really irks me is Sea. Much loses out on the Power Rank because Sea is a nice guy? FS, how can you make arguments based on peoples skill one second but put sea to #1 because hes cool? If there is no one set reason why someone rises or falls, then the power rank loses meaning and cohesion. If Seas spot is #1 for like a few more days because you want to give credit to his out reach, I don't care. If you intend to keep him, how can you honestly justify the inconsistent basis on how people are placed in spots?
On July 07 2008 09:07 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: Luxury is lower because he didnt play up to the standard at which he would have to during games 4 and 5 of his OSL semifinal. Please understand that Luxury is one of my favourite players, but I simply had to place him lower than other people who have been performing better with more consistency overall.
Yeah, I agree with that. Choking does deserve punishment. I concede on that point.
On July 07 2008 09:07 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: fOrGG is so high because he is playing really, really well. I'm not sure what else to say to you, watch some of his games.
Don't get me wrong, he is. I thought FORGG deserved six or seven a few days ago, and that was before Luxuries FAIL against Best. He does deserve a high spot. I think five is too high, because thats a middle spot. Should anyone be put in a middle spot when there is a giant question mark around one of their match ups? I just don't think so. FORGG's tvt may be getting better....but I just don't think theres enough to say for that right now.
On July 07 2008 09:07 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: Now, let's just talk about you for a moment. Do YOU watch every single pro game every month?
Beyond for a few odd games between insignificant players, yes.
On July 07 2008 09:07 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:do YOU have six years of experience analyzing professional starcraft? Do YOU appreciate every nuance, every subtlety of the games you watch? I do, that's why I write the Power Rank. If you don't, maybe you aren't in a position to call anything "shitty", hmm?
I don't have six years of watching starcraft but I've been playing the game since an extremely young age, before I was even six. I understand Starcraft pretty damn well, some things may be lost on me compared to other people, but I think I have a fairly good claim on where people should go. As to shitty: How do you expect me to react? Most of these decisions I can agree with, or at least see the motivation beyond [I disagree with the *extent* you dropped Hwasin for example, but not the drop in and of itself], but after you put Sea on the power rank, its just...blah. Either way, if I understand Starcraft as well as you or not, I have the right to criticize, no? Though I did it in the wrong way, so my apologies.
On July 07 2008 09:07 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: Much is in the CBNC, he'd be 10th on the PR.
Well heres my problem here, I don't mind Much dropping. Personally I think hes more deserving of a spot than others above him but hey. What really irks me is Sea. Much loses out on the Power Rank because Sea is a nice guy? FS, how can you make arguments based on peoples skill one second but put sea to #1 because hes cool? If there is no one set reason why someone rises or falls, then the power rank loses meaning and cohesion. If Seas spot is #1 for like a few more days because you want to give credit to his out reach, I don't care. If you intend to keep him, how can you honestly justify the inconsistent basis on how people are placed in spots?
I think you're still not getting it. Places 2 to 11 are not based upon niceness, nor are they inconsistant. 2 to 11 is this months power rank, rather than the usual 1-10. Coolness won't help a player rise in the 2 to 11 zone.
What has happened is that Sea has been given the title of #1 PR while simultaneously the value of #1 PR has been given to #2, the value of #2 to #3 and so forth up to 11. Sea's title is empty and the power rank itself remains entirely unchanged by his intrusion. In short there is no reason to complain about Sea on this power rank because he's not on the power rank. He holds the title but the power rank itself is from 2 to 11.
I enjoyed this powerrank. Hopefully Sea will one day earn his way back to the top spot! Maybe you guys could convince him to play every game like it was pro-league. Then he would be unstoppable!
Kal doesn't deserve a spot IMO; he's been very mediocre this month. I don't think players should get a free pass on the PR just because they played well 2 months ago.
On July 07 2008 11:16 ScarFace wrote: [Yeah sorry, I am a little more hostile on this site than regularly, because the site in general is most hostile. Though I guess moderation is trying to turn that around.
that's cool. like i said there isnt much of a problem because you're in here to debate the legitimacy of the ranking, not tell me how bad i am at anything
Well heres my problem here, I don't mind Much dropping. Personally I think hes more deserving of a spot than others above him but hey. What really irks me is Sea. Much loses out on the Power Rank because Sea is a nice guy? FS, how can you make arguments based on peoples skill one second but put sea to #1 because hes cool? If there is no one set reason why someone rises or falls, then the power rank loses meaning and cohesion. If Seas spot is #1 for like a few more days because you want to give credit to his out reach, I don't care. If you intend to keep him, how can you honestly justify the inconsistent basis on how people are placed in spots?
Sea is on the Power Rank for a different reason, the actual ranking goes from 2 to 11 as Kwark said. This is a one-time thing that is spurred by a very memorable few days. Given the work that goes into this every month I don't think that's unacceptable.
Don't get me wrong, he is. I thought FORGG deserved six or seven a few days ago, and that was before Luxuries FAIL against Best. He does deserve a high spot. I think five is too high, because thats a middle spot. Should anyone be put in a middle spot when there is a giant question mark around one of their match ups? I just don't think so. FORGG's tvt may be getting better....but I just don't think theres enough to say for that right now.
fOrGG has certainly been playing better than the people below him. You can't assign random criteria for every specific spot. If fOrGG deserved sixth in your mind, and then Luxury crashed and burned, wouldn't fOrGG logically be in fifth?
I don't have six years of watching starcraft but I've been playing the game since an extremely young age, before I was even six. I understand Starcraft pretty damn well, some things may be lost on me compared to other people, but I think I have a fairly good claim on where people should go. As to shitty: How do you expect me to react? Most of these decisions I can agree with, or at least see the motivation beyond [I disagree with the *extent* you dropped Hwasin for example, but not the drop in and of itself], but after you put Sea on the power rank, its just...blah. Either way, if I understand Starcraft as well as you or not, I have the right to criticize, no? Though I did it in the wrong way, so my apologies.
You certainly do have a right to criticize, I didn't mean to imply that you don't. All I meant to convey is that I am well past qualified to write this Power Rank, and I put a hell of a lot of work into doing so. It's always acceptable to have different views about ProGaming, that's what makes it such a captivating area of interest. It's just not acceptable in any way to make personal slurs against me (which you haven't done, mind) or to claim this rank is "shitty" because you disagree with it. Of course it won't suit everyone's views every single month, that's not even remotely possible.
p.s. julyzerg has been in 5 OSL finals iirc, 2:2 in them [win over iloveoov, goodfriend, loss to julyzerg, iloveoov]
You mean wins over REACH (Gillette, his win over Oov was semifinals), GoodFriend (EVER04). Losses over NaDa (IOPS) and Oov (Shinhan05). I'm not very surprised to see that it was LR who forgets Reach was one of the ones who lost to July in an OSL final. lol!
As to those who are complaining about Sea being #1. SUCK IT UP. This isn't KeSPA, this is Team Liquid. We don't go by points, we don't go by wins. We go by our gut feeling and the impression the players have given. And Sea has shown a lot of TL <3 the past week, so FS decides to reward him in a small way. Got a problem with that? Too.Fucking.Bad.
;;
why does everyone keep laughing at me about that? Fakesteve and Idra and now L2W
fun to read as usual, i must say power rank is one of the many things i enjoy at TL. man still can't believe Sea gamed you guys!
btw, the PR is based on his opinion. people have different opinions. why are people arguing? if it's not entertaining forget it, go make your own PR in your blog or something. waste of posts x(
Don't get me wrong, he is. I thought FORGG deserved six or seven a few days ago, and that was before Luxuries FAIL against Best. He does deserve a high spot. I think five is too high, because thats a middle spot. Should anyone be put in a middle spot when there is a giant question mark around one of their match ups? I just don't think so. FORGG's tvt may be getting better....but I just don't think theres enough to say for that right now.
fOrGG has certainly been playing better than the people below him. You can't assign random criteria for every specific spot. If fOrGG deserved sixth in your mind, and then Luxury crashed and burned, wouldn't fOrGG logically be in fifth?
It's not random Criteria. The way I see the power rank, that is, the best way to determine the overall strength of players of Starcraft, is looking at them their overall play as well as their consistency. Kal is consistent. He has great pvz- the best right now, considering Bisu is slumping-, great pvt, and improving pvp. His pvp is his weakness, its not great. But no one can deny hes making real progress. As to FORGG, he has great tvp and tvz, and has admittedly more momentum than Kal at the moment, but I don't think his tvt has gone very far. Its still a huge weakness for him, much more detrimental than Kals lackluster pvp.
And thats the thing. Both of them have two strong match ups, and both of them have one weak one. The difference is, one is sweeping through a major league at the moment, while the other one has been playing at this level for the last 3 or so months. Consistency or momentum? I guess you value players on the Power rank in a different way than I do, but in my mind Kal should nudge out forgg, and Luxury should stay below both because while hes consistent, hes also a consistent choker. That just wont do, even more so when your talking 1-4 on the power rank, which is suppose to be S class.
fakesteve if i may ask if july hypothetically defeats best i know this will vary depending on the people above him and the emphaticness of his victory but how high of a spot could you see yourself giving july on the powerrank barring any of the other people above him crashing and burning
On July 07 2008 05:11 Pinselstrich wrote: What a dumb and pathetic PR that is. Although I didn't agree with many others too but at least you brought some real arguments into your write-ups. This, on the other side, is just plain ridicolous. If it isn't please tell me what Sea has DONE to get a no.1 spot? And no, adding you to his friendslist on west is not the kind of action I mean.
Has more heart than any other progamer, lol. As if you knew how much heart the ppl have, you seriously seem to be nothing more than a little fanboy, using the TLPR for his love-letters. Wow, I never thought you were such a nuthugger. -.-
Some people are just too stupid to realize that he put Sea on #1 as a joke. He's not being serious about it...the real PR starts from #2
We all know that Sea doesn't deserve a #1 PR spot skill-wise...but he's not there for that reason..its just a one-time joke thing.
FakeSteve, I am deeply disturbed by your lack of integrity with this power rank. The ranking this month is a travesty, an insult to all of us who wait each month with hope in our hearts. This power rank is an abomination, a piece of biased propaganda. FakeSteve you have let us down, there is no way around it. + Show Spoiler +
As any honest man should clearly see, GOD OF WAR >>> Luxury. Yum Bo Sung fighting
On July 07 2008 14:35 CDRdude wrote: FakeSteve, I am deeply disturbed by your lack of integrity with this power rank. The ranking this month is a travesty, an insult to all of us who wait each month with hope in our hearts. This power rank is an abomination, a piece of biased propaganda. FakeSteve you have let us down, there is no way around it. + Show Spoiler +
As any honest man should clearly see, GOD OF WAR >>> Luxury. Yum Bo Sung fighting
none of this would have happened if Sea wasn't invited to WWI in the first place, so maybe there are other progamers who are just as cool and whatnot as he is?
On July 08 2008 02:59 NotSupporting wrote: "Like his teammate fOrGG, I don't particularly like Lomo. But, this ain't about feelings, it's about StarCraft"
*looks at sea's first place* hmm....
Well sea was a cool guy, mixed with FakeSteve's irrational love for sea anyways... but yes i get your point ;D
This is a good PR. Thank you for putting Flash and JD above Best. He is a great protoss but he just does not have the status that they have; not until he wins an SL at least. Top 3 is perfect and overall it is very accurate. I first thought Hwasin might be a bit low but then realised that both ForGG, Lomo, and Luxury have preformed better against Kal, and Flash respectively. Even though Lomo lost, he elevated his game and pushed the best TvT to a game 5 where as the best TvZ has suddenly dropped and was dominated in 3 straight sets.
On July 08 2008 06:28 TheTyranid wrote: This is a good PR. Thank you for putting Flash and JD above Best. He is a great protoss but he just does not have the status that they have; not until he wins an SL at least. Top 3 is perfect and overall it is very accurate. I first thought Hwasin might be a bit low but then realised that both ForGG, Lomo, and Luxury have preformed better against Kal, and Flash respectively. Even though Lomo lost, he elevated his game and pushed the best TvT to a game 5 where as the best TvZ has suddenly dropped and was dominated in 3 straight sets.
jesus, thank you
you're like the first person to realize that all of this happened
lol, I really enjoy seeing Sea on top, it's always great when celebrities really care about the people who made them famous. So for this: good job, fs. The other ranks seem to be pretty justified, but I absolutely can't agree with putting Best below Flash. It might be true, that Flash has a better "starcraft sense" and it's also quite possible that Flash will get better results in the future again, because we don't know for sure if he wasn't just tired the last few weeks, BUT this month Best just did the far better job. Since the last power ranking was made, Best went 11-3 and Flash 8-8. Indeed numbers can lie, but is this the case here? Best 2-0ed Much, beat Kal, Jangbi, free and 2 second class protoss, drew vs. really (1-1) and pulled out a win vs. Luxury in a bo5 (3-2). So, considering that PvP is Best's premium matchup there's nothing really special about the 7 wins vs. other protoss, but still he's shown that his play is extremely consistent. The loss vs. Really is kind of an "accident", which can occure every now and then. Anyway he demonstrated that he can do better by taking revenge in the ace match under huge pressure. In my opinion the special thing this month was the bo5 vs. Luxury. Most people agree that PvZ is Best's relatively weak matchup and Luxury was on a 10-1 killing spree before he faced Best in the OSL. I watched the games very carefully and finally I came to the result that Best is a true champion because he just managed to come back although everything went wrong in the beginning. He lost the first game because of an all-in move and the second one because Luxury is a strategic genius. In game three he looked smashed again but then found this great shuttle trick and turned it around. He kicked Luxury's ass totally in game 4 and game 5 was just epic by both players. The main thing is that Best is there 100% when it counts. That's the huge difference between him and e.g. Stork who plays hilarious when it's about nothing and fails in the finals every fucking time (we all remember the 5th game of the MSL finals were he outmacroed Bisu and FORGOT the bloody range upgrade). To put it in a nutshell: Best really improved a lot this month and has shown some qualities he hadn't shown before. Flash on the other hand played very inconsistently and just reached 50% vs. media opponents. The 8 wins were all against 2nd class opponents except of Mind who definitely is in a slump at the moment. Darkelf (ugly!!!), Zero, Mingu, Hyia is not exactly what I would call the cream of the crop. I excuse the losses vs. Luxury and ForGG, because they are topstars as well, but losses to Hero, free, Ruby and Lomo (twice) really make me think about Flash's condition. Though people don't confess it: Flash's play was freaking shaky lately!! His MSL opponent do-whatever-you-want-I-will-not-scout-you-in-the-first-game-anyway-Lomo is not that great at all, that this bo5-win could change the impression about Flash. There are also reasons for putting Best above Jaedong, but imo both alternatives 1.JD/2.Best, 1.Best/2.JD are kind of justified. As mentioned above the rest is well done. I still think that FBH should be in CBNC. He is one of the key players of the #1-team and is a threat to every Terran and Zerg out there. You are right, that he gets eliminated everytime he faces a protoss in a league, but also his TvP has improved. The series vs. Much was kind of close or at least close to close.
Kind of unrelated to the PR but its related to a person on the PR, and I don't really think its worth a thread/pming an admin: Shouldn't Much [pbuh] have Heart Toss as his nickname?
On July 08 2008 15:46 ScarFace wrote: Kind of unrelated to the PR but its related to a person on the PR, and I don't really think its worth a thread/pming an admin: Shouldn't Much [pbuh] have Heart Toss as his nickname?
On July 08 2008 09:35 Polar_Bear wrote: He kicked Luxury's ass totally in game 4 and game 5 was just epic by both players.
Really? I seem to recall like 70 supply of mass lings vs 140 monster macro army of Protoss... Luxury choked hard....really really hard. I'm not saying Best isn't amazingly awesome. He is, but I don't think that game 5 was any demonstration of this.
On July 08 2008 02:59 NotSupporting wrote: "Like his teammate fOrGG, I don't particularly like Lomo. But, this ain't about feelings, it's about StarCraft"
*looks at sea's first place* hmm....
This is power ranks.. not skill ranks.. or win percentage ranks. Like Fakesteve said, power could exist in many forms... if tossgirl gave a bj to everyone on TL that would be counted as enough power to have her ranked #1 on FS's PR for 5 years.
On July 08 2008 15:46 ScarFace wrote: Kind of unrelated to the PR but its related to a person on the PR, and I don't really think its worth a thread/pming an admin: Shouldn't Much [pbuh] have Heart Toss as his nickname?
On July 08 2008 06:28 TheTyranid wrote: This is a good PR. Thank you for putting Flash and JD above Best. He is a great protoss but he just does not have the status that they have; not until he wins an SL at least. Top 3 is perfect and overall it is very accurate. I first thought Hwasin might be a bit low but then realised that both ForGG, Lomo, and Luxury have preformed better against Kal, and Flash respectively. Even though Lomo lost, he elevated his game and pushed the best TvT to a game 5 where as the best TvZ has suddenly dropped and was dominated in 3 straight sets.
lol? what kind of excuse is it to put Flash and Jaedong before Best just cuz they once won a starleague? PR shouldnt have shit to do with past preformance, but the moment right now. And for this month, Flash hasnt been as good, And jaedong has made alot of mistakes in his games aswell, some of them just barley made it, but Best in other hand, play like a God! Best is 11-4 in June, Flash is 5-5, and Jaedong 6-5. Isnt this suposed to be an monthly PR?
On July 08 2008 06:28 TheTyranid wrote: This is a good PR. Thank you for putting Flash and JD above Best. He is a great protoss but he just does not have the status that they have; not until he wins an SL at least. Top 3 is perfect and overall it is very accurate. I first thought Hwasin might be a bit low but then realised that both ForGG, Lomo, and Luxury have preformed better against Kal, and Flash respectively. Even though Lomo lost, he elevated his game and pushed the best TvT to a game 5 where as the best TvZ has suddenly dropped and was dominated in 3 straight sets.
lol? what kind of excuse is it to put Flash and Jaedong before Best just cuz they once won a starleague? PR shouldnt have shit to do with past preformance, but the moment right now. And for this month, Flash hasnt been as good, And jaedong has made alot of mistakes in his games aswell, some of them just barley made it, but Best in other hand, play like a God! Best is 11-4 in June, Flash is 5-5, and Jaedong 6-5. Isnt this suposed to be an monthly PR?
It is true that Best had a better record this month but the fact is that Flash and JD are just better players at the moment. They are better. Flash is 5-5 but you must realize that every player has hiccups. Its just impossible to keep such a hight win percentage. At one point in the future Best is also going to have a crappy month. The point is that Flash is steadily advancing through the MSL as is Jaedong who completely destroyed Hwasin. Best whos ZvP still looks shaky. Once again do realize how hard Luxury choked in the OSL. Bests game isnt as complete as that of Jaedong or Flash but I say once again if he wins the OSL destroying July I will retract that statement as I will be convinced that he has great ZvP.
On July 08 2008 06:28 TheTyranid wrote: This is a good PR. Thank you for putting Flash and JD above Best. He is a great protoss but he just does not have the status that they have; not until he wins an SL at least. Top 3 is perfect and overall it is very accurate. I first thought Hwasin might be a bit low but then realised that both ForGG, Lomo, and Luxury have preformed better against Kal, and Flash respectively. Even though Lomo lost, he elevated his game and pushed the best TvT to a game 5 where as the best TvZ has suddenly dropped and was dominated in 3 straight sets.
lol? what kind of excuse is it to put Flash and Jaedong before Best just cuz they once won a starleague? PR shouldnt have shit to do with past preformance, but the moment right now. And for this month, Flash hasnt been as good, And jaedong has made alot of mistakes in his games aswell, some of them just barley made it, but Best in other hand, play like a God! Best is 11-4 in June, Flash is 5-5, and Jaedong 6-5. Isnt this suposed to be an monthly PR?
If you base your statements on their overall records for the month you really don't understand the Power Rank and shouldn't be posting
On July 08 2008 15:46 ScarFace wrote: Kind of unrelated to the PR but its related to a person on the PR, and I don't really think its worth a thread/pming an admin: Shouldn't Much [pbuh] have Heart Toss as his nickname?
On July 08 2008 06:28 TheTyranid wrote: This is a good PR. Thank you for putting Flash and JD above Best. He is a great protoss but he just does not have the status that they have; not until he wins an SL at least. Top 3 is perfect and overall it is very accurate. I first thought Hwasin might be a bit low but then realised that both ForGG, Lomo, and Luxury have preformed better against Kal, and Flash respectively. Even though Lomo lost, he elevated his game and pushed the best TvT to a game 5 where as the best TvZ has suddenly dropped and was dominated in 3 straight sets.
lol? what kind of excuse is it to put Flash and Jaedong before Best just cuz they once won a starleague? PR shouldnt have shit to do with past preformance, but the moment right now. And for this month, Flash hasnt been as good, And jaedong has made alot of mistakes in his games aswell, some of them just barley made it, but Best in other hand, play like a God! Best is 11-4 in June, Flash is 5-5, and Jaedong 6-5. Isnt this suposed to be an monthly PR?
If you base your statements on their overall records for the month you really don't understand the Power Rank and shouldn't be posting
Im getting sick of ur short answers for everbody, and not to mention your fanboy powerranks, you really should explain abit more than just post shit like this. I understand the powerrank perfectly, ive been following it for aslong as it existed, and since then, it has had a huge precentage depending on how a persons record has been the last month. What is the point of a PR if you dont take that into consideration?? Tell me what you look at when you do powerank BESIDES how a person has been playing. Cuz in the last months that obviosly has been your reason for taking ppl on and off poweranks. Unless you recently decided to change the whole powerank system into somthing personal.
Is the osl better than the msl? They seem to be structured the same and are taken from the same pool of players, personally I think Nony should be put in the power rank >.>, He Beat fancy in an epic one vs one, thats pretty fricken awesome to me.
And, in things that are relavant, how can you say JDs ZvZ hasnt been tested? Who else could he test it with, Zerg are, by far, the shallowest in numbers of good level players. Right now, july/lux/JD are winning, but what other zerg is, thier arent any zerg equivalants to say Midas or Kal or Hwasin
On July 08 2008 06:28 TheTyranid wrote: This is a good PR. Thank you for putting Flash and JD above Best. He is a great protoss but he just does not have the status that they have; not until he wins an SL at least. Top 3 is perfect and overall it is very accurate. I first thought Hwasin might be a bit low but then realised that both ForGG, Lomo, and Luxury have preformed better against Kal, and Flash respectively. Even though Lomo lost, he elevated his game and pushed the best TvT to a game 5 where as the best TvZ has suddenly dropped and was dominated in 3 straight sets.
lol? what kind of excuse is it to put Flash and Jaedong before Best just cuz they once won a starleague? PR shouldnt have shit to do with past preformance, but the moment right now. And for this month, Flash hasnt been as good, And jaedong has made alot of mistakes in his games aswell, some of them just barley made it, but Best in other hand, play like a God! Best is 11-4 in June, Flash is 5-5, and Jaedong 6-5. Isnt this suposed to be an monthly PR?
If you base your statements on their overall records for the month you really don't understand the Power Rank and shouldn't be posting
Im getting sick of ur short answers for everbody, and not to mention your fanboy powerranks, you really should explain abit more than just post shit like this. I understand the powerrank perfectly, ive been following it for aslong as it existed, and since then, it has had a huge precentage depending on how a persons record has been the last month. What is the point of a PR if you dont take that into consideration?? Tell me what you look at when you do powerank BESIDES how a person has been playing. Cuz in the last months that obviosly has been your reason for taking ppl on and off poweranks. Unless you recently decided to change the whole powerank system into somthing personal.
First, mind your manners
Second, there is more important stuff to be found by WATCHING the games than by looking solely at the records players have
I mean you're the kind of guy who would think that Lucifer should be high on the PR because he had a 9 game win streak. that's not smart
On July 09 2008 15:19 fatalis wrote: And, in things that are relavant, how can you say JDs ZvZ hasnt been tested? Who else could he test it with, Zerg are, by far, the shallowest in numbers of good level players. Right now, july/lux/JD are winning, but what other zerg is, thier arent any zerg equivalants to say Midas or Kal or Hwasin
JD's zvz certainly isn't untested. In fact, he's the best ZvZ player in the world, and has been for quite some time
I dunno where anyone gets off saying his ZvZ is "untested"
On July 09 2008 20:02 Fishbone wrote: I don't really understand some spots this month... But ok.
Which one except Sea ? The others are on spot except maybe Kal should have been 8 and July 6. <3 July , this is his OSL and his golden mouse i believe !!
On July 08 2008 06:28 TheTyranid wrote: This is a good PR. Thank you for putting Flash and JD above Best. He is a great protoss but he just does not have the status that they have; not until he wins an SL at least. Top 3 is perfect and overall it is very accurate. I first thought Hwasin might be a bit low but then realised that both ForGG, Lomo, and Luxury have preformed better against Kal, and Flash respectively. Even though Lomo lost, he elevated his game and pushed the best TvT to a game 5 where as the best TvZ has suddenly dropped and was dominated in 3 straight sets.
lol? what kind of excuse is it to put Flash and Jaedong before Best just cuz they once won a starleague? PR shouldnt have shit to do with past preformance, but the moment right now. And for this month, Flash hasnt been as good, And jaedong has made alot of mistakes in his games aswell, some of them just barley made it, but Best in other hand, play like a God! Best is 11-4 in June, Flash is 5-5, and Jaedong 6-5. Isnt this suposed to be an monthly PR?
If you base your statements on their overall records for the month you really don't understand the Power Rank and shouldn't be posting
Im getting sick of ur short answers for everbody, and not to mention your fanboy powerranks, you really should explain abit more than just post shit like this. I understand the powerrank perfectly, ive been following it for aslong as it existed, and since then, it has had a huge precentage depending on how a persons record has been the last month. What is the point of a PR if you dont take that into consideration?? Tell me what you look at when you do powerank BESIDES how a person has been playing. Cuz in the last months that obviosly has been your reason for taking ppl on and off poweranks. Unless you recently decided to change the whole powerank system into somthing personal.
First, mind your manners
Second, there is more important stuff to be found by WATCHING the games than by looking solely at the records players have
I mean you're the kind of guy who would think that Lucifer should be high on the PR because he had a 9 game win streak. that's not smart
sorry for beeing rude, was early in the morning, and dont judge me of what kind of guy I am, you dont know me. I have actually watched atleast over 70% of all games in PL and SLs this season, and I havent seen any weakness that would make Best anything less deserving the first spot this month. His games has been outstanding, 2 of his losses vs mind(strong player) and really(solid play this month) and rest vs the series vs luxury, where he had a solid comback, after luxurys break into his fast expos. And no, I am not looking solely on the records. When it comes to Lucifer, I never said he should have gotten high spot on PR, he should have gotten one of the last spots on PR, maybe instead of Pure, cuz he actually made himself noticable and showed entertaining starcraft with well exectuded tactics, aswell as he actually he still was in a SL. His play both inventive and bold, compared to Pures (who?) boring play. On PR, wins and losses should have somthing to say to some extent, cuz in the end, thats what matters? If you advance or not, if you win for you team or not. PR should be about the level of entertainment games show, how inventive the tactics are and how well they are exectued. And last but not least, the skill the players show troughout the month.
The level of Best vs Flash and Jaedong is on a different level. These are not cheesy wins, but all solid entertaning play by Best, who wins after playing well all month. But only because he doesnt have any past starleague merits, or your fanscore on him isnt that high, he doesnt "deserve it". Its a matter of perspective. Its the same as when Jaedong did the 4 pool vs hwasin, some players thought "omg, 4pool, how lame, Jaedong you dissapoint me" and some thought "omg, 4 pool, thats fucking bold and cool, amazingly exectued! genious!". Personally I think it was lame, he had a tactic prepared, and ditched it for something cheesy. And you mention it as "wins" in PR, contraditcing yourself, as if it matters, lame way of winning in a quarterfinal. All 3 are good, Im a huge fan of Flash and Best, (not a big Z fan, except for Luxury and maybe Savior ^^) but Flash hasnt showed that impressive play this month. If you watch his looses, its like wtf is up with him, getting utterly raped by Luxury. Where is monster Flash?? it defenitly lacked some top notch. Best still remains as solid, and thats what matters in the end. Jaedong is shaking, allowing sunken breaks, losing hard vs bisu, whats up with that? and his ZvT?? Oo Tell me a good argument that makes Best not deserve the top spot, what is his weakness? Why is he not as good as Flash and Jaedong??? I dont get it, explain yourself. Thanks for reading
phant2m - you don't know how best would do in a series versus flash or jaedong. he may be better than both of them, but as of now there's just no evidence to prove it.
lets say, hypothetically, he actually is more skilled than both of them. what if jaedong and flash both have a more advanced sense of game theory than best, so that they both could still beat him in a series? we have no idea.
i just rewatched the jaedong/flash tri-series event from a few months ago, and a game theory edge was the only reason flash beat jaedong, i'm pretty sure, it makes a big difference.
what i'm trying to say is that best is just more unproven, and though we can speculate on his true talent level, there's just a lot less certainty when compared to flash or jaedong.
On July 09 2008 20:02 Fishbone wrote: I don't really understand some spots this month... But ok.
Which one except Sea ? The others are on spot except maybe Kal should have been 8 and July 6. <3 July , this is his OSL and his golden mouse i believe !!
July playing 4 games this month vs horrible toss players. he shouldnt even be as high as 8. Lomo defintly surpass him, and even Hwasin. He got luck, thats why he is in finals. Too bad July wont stand a chance vs Best.
On July 10 2008 00:55 traced wrote: phant2m - you don't know how best would do in a series versus flash or jaedong. he may be better than both of them, but as of now there's just no evidence to prove it.
lets say, hypothetically, he actually is more skilled than both of them. what if jaedong and flash both have a more advanced sense of game theory than best, so that they both could still beat him in a series? we have no idea.
i just rewatched the jaedong/flash tri-series event from a few months ago, and a game theory edge was the only reason flash beat jaedong, i'm pretty sure, it makes a big difference.
true, hard to judge players when there isnt enough games. But looking at the games Best has played vs 2nd tier players compared to Flashs games vs 2nd tier players. Flash has struggled tbh. BUT atleast if there is gonna be a rank, then there should be an explanation properly why! TLnet really should take PR to next level.
Honestly, I read the PR not for the value in itself, but for the hilarious bitchfest that inevitably follows. Just put Sea at #1 next month too to spite everyone.
On July 10 2008 00:55 traced wrote: phant2m - you don't know how best would do in a series versus flash or jaedong. he may be better than both of them, but as of now there's just no evidence to prove it.
lets say, hypothetically, he actually is more skilled than both of them. what if jaedong and flash both have a more advanced sense of game theory than best, so that they both could still beat him in a series? we have no idea.
i just rewatched the jaedong/flash tri-series event from a few months ago, and a game theory edge was the only reason flash beat jaedong, i'm pretty sure, it makes a big difference.
true, hard to judge players when there isnt enough games. But looking at the games Best has played vs 2nd tier players compared to Flashs games vs 2nd tier players. Flash has struggled tbh. BUT atleast if there is gonna be a rank, then there should be an explanation properly why! TLnet really should take PR to next level.
PR is going to remain the way it is. You are just pissed off.
The PR determines the current strongest player. You argument is that Best has the best record this month and has played better than anyone else. However you cannot say that Best isstronger atm than JD or Flash. FS said in the Best description that it would be nice to have a clash between the three to sort out who is the best. Tested players get the advantage over untested players when it comes to sorting out who is the strongest. Savior was ranked higher then Bisu after the 0-3 MSL disaster and his fail in the Suprefight. Bisu was ranked higher than Jaedong (who was on a 13 game win streak) last fall despite weaker play and worse record. Only after Jaedong won OSL did he become 1'st. PR ranked Jaedong and Flash over Best because they are STRONGER players.
You also fail to realize how shaky Best was against Luxury and that his win was in large part due to Luxury choking. He looked shakier than Flash did against Lomo, why would you think July has no chance agains Best when his agressive style can capitalize on Best's weaker early game?
On July 09 2008 20:02 Fishbone wrote: I don't really understand some spots this month... But ok.
Which one except Sea ? The others are on spot except maybe Kal should have been 8 and July 6. <3 July , this is his OSL and his golden mouse i believe !!
July playing 4 games this month vs horrible toss players. he shouldnt even be as high as 8. Lomo defintly surpass him, and even Hwasin. He got luck, thats why he is in finals. Too bad July wont stand a chance vs Best.
One word separates Flash and Jaedong from Best and that is experience . Best is still a rookie in my eyes , but he can prove that he is a champion if he can beat the God of War , and hang with the big boys when they are playing good . I have seen Jaedong end many winning streaks with just lifting a finger such as Ruby's vs zerg streak on Katrina in PL that was a pathetic game and Lucifer's in the MSL who raised the dust here in the PR . Best is certainly better then this two , but he has to prove he ain't just an other up and coming toss he needs to become a champion if people want to take him seriously .
About your comment on the chances July will have vs BEST i can only say: Don't be ignorant !!! Look at reality closely - look at the maps , his opponent , the circumstances . The OSL final is similar to the mach Hwasin vs Jaedong , Best has to win againts the odds or he won't be higher then Flash and JD . Saying that July has no chance vs BEST is like when people said that JD did not stand a chance vs Hwasin and see where that let to . This is even way more ignorant , because of the map pool it favours July who is a monster in ZvP not exactly like Luxury's weakest mach up .
Now please stop weeping about BEST and wait for the OSL final , and pray for him next month .
On July 10 2008 00:39 ThePhan2m wrote: When it comes to Lucifer, I never said he should have gotten high spot on PR, he should have gotten one of the last spots on PR, maybe instead of Pure
This right here raises alarm bells in my head. Pure vs Lucifer was one of the things on last month's PR that was absolutely not up for debate. I don't understand how anyone can watch the two of them play and think Lucifer was playing better.
But, since you took the time to write all of that, I owe you an explanation about Best.
Here's the thing: The top spots on the PR are earned, not handed out. Flash and Jaedong have been the two best players for quite a while, and both of them are still performing at the level to which we are accustomed. I understand where you're coming from, but Flash and Jaedong have been this good for much longer than Best has, and consistancy is something that should be rewarded.
Additionally, the leagues aren't even finished yet. If Best were to win OSL, and neither Flash nor Jaedong won MSL, you can count on Best taking the top spot. As it stands right now, Flash and Jaedong are both fresh off of StarLeague wins, and look like they'll meet in the MSL final.
Straight results simply aren't enough to make an accurate Power Rank. The top spot goes to the best player on earth, and without a little more to boast, Best can't take it without Jaedong or Flash playing worse than usual.
It's rather unfortunate for Best that the leagues were at the stage they were at when the PR came out. There are still unanswered questions about him. Will the finals stage intimidate him? Can he handle July's unique style? Can he sustain his high level of play for more than a single league, or will he become a protoss GGPlay? Until those questions are answered, Best can't have the top spot.
Basically the bottom line is that Best is playing exceptionally well, but so are Jaedong and Flash, and there's nothing yet that indicates Best is playing better than those two. Also, Best hasn't played the OSL final yet, and it would be nothing but sensible to wait until that happens before claiming he's superior to Flash or Jaedong.
Their respective records for the month have so little to do with it that I'm surprised you brought them up in the first place.
On July 10 2008 00:39 ThePhan2m wrote: When it comes to Lucifer, I never said he should have gotten high spot on PR, he should have gotten one of the last spots on PR, maybe instead of Pure
This right here raises alarm bells in my head. Pure vs Lucifer was one of the things on last month's PR that was absolutely not up for debate. I don't understand how anyone can watch the two of them play and think Lucifer was playing better.
But, since you took the time to write all of that, I owe you an explanation about Best.
Here's the thing: The top spots on the PR are earned, not handed out. Flash and Jaedong have been the two best players for quite a while, and both of them are still performing at the level to which we are accustomed. I understand where you're coming from, but Flash and Jaedong have been this good for much longer than Best has, and consistancy is something that should be rewarded.
Additionally, the leagues aren't even finished yet. If Best were to win OSL, and neither Flash nor Jaedong won MSL, you can count on Best taking the top spot. As it stands right now, Flash and Jaedong are both fresh off of StarLeague wins, and look like they'll meet in the MSL final.
Straight results simply aren't enough to make an accurate Power Rank. The top spot goes to the best player on earth, and without a little more to boast, Best can't take it without Jaedong or Flash playing worse than usual.
It's rather unfortunate for Best that the leagues were at the stage they were at when the PR came out. There are still unanswered questions about him. Will the finals stage intimidate him? Can he handle July's unique style? Can he sustain his high level of play for more than a single league, or will he become a protoss GGPlay? Until those questions are answered, Best can't have the top spot.
On July 10 2008 05:53 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: Hey now, I like Best
Well i don't know if it is better to be GGplay then Stork .GGplay has won at least an OSL but stork has won more special events . Frankly after seeing their PvZ/ZvP on andromeda if i had to choose to be progamer i wouldn't want to be both of them , but then again i wouldn't want to be an andromeda either . The map is becomeing a who can out expand and out turtle the other player to win in PvZ .
thanks for the explenation, now that clears things up.
However, Best is no way GGplay. GGplay didnt play like Best does now, he went trough OSL with lucky oppnements, he never really had it. Tbh whole that OSL was a joke, and GGplay winning that OSL was just showing Gods big joke of luck prepared for the BW world. Maybe a Stork, maybe... guess we only have to wait and see. There is more than just skills that we have to take into count. Sadly enough, there will be alot of pressure on Best. But anyhow, Julyzerg hasnt really shown his strenght yet either? To think he is the old July, the war of God is to be hopeful, his former oppenements hasnt exactly been top players. SO SATURDAY! here we come! *drums*
On July 10 2008 06:49 ThePhan2m wrote: thanks for the explenation, now that clears things up.
However, Best is no way GGplay. GGplay didnt play like Best does now, he went trough OSL with lucky oppnements, he never really had it. Tbh whole that OSL was a joke, and GGplay winning that OSL was just showing Gods big joke of luck prepared for the BW world. Maybe a Stork, maybe... guess we only have to wait and see. There is more than just skills that we have to take into count. Sadly enough, there will be alot of pressure on Best. But anyhow, Julyzerg hasnt really shown his strenght yet either? To think he is the old July, the war of God is to be hopeful, his former oppenements hasnt exactly been top players. SO SATURDAY! here we come! *drums*
Lol ?
GGplay a joke ? He had to beat Hwasin first (who is always very good in TvZ), then Flash (who has always been a TvZ monster ) then defeated Iris in 5 brillant set That OSL was a joke ? Seriously it produced the best TvZ of 2007, a lot of amazing series, it was one of the Best OSL seriously (savior vs iris, hwasin vs GGplay, Flash vs GGplay, iris vs GGplay, the other matchup i dont remember) Lucky opponents ? O_O
On July 10 2008 06:49 ThePhan2m wrote: thanks for the explenation, now that clears things up.
However, Best is no way GGplay. GGplay didnt play like Best does now, he went trough OSL with lucky oppnements, he never really had it. Tbh whole that OSL was a joke, and GGplay winning that OSL was just showing Gods big joke of luck prepared for the BW world. Maybe a Stork, maybe... guess we only have to wait and see. There is more than just skills that we have to take into count. Sadly enough, there will be alot of pressure on Best. But anyhow, Julyzerg hasnt really shown his strenght yet either? To think he is the old July, the war of God is to be hopeful, his former oppenements hasnt exactly been top players. SO SATURDAY! here we come! *drums*
You're so wrong it hurts. GGPlay played some of the best ZvT i've ever seen during his OSL run, but faded afterwards
That finals series. It was just unbelievable. Both of them disappeared afterwards, one of them having lost the fire and the other having their dreams crushed. But in that game with all the glory for the win, 2-2, playing for that epic comeback it was just perfect. As much as I dislike any leagues where sAviOr doesn't sex things up that OSL was awesome.
Coming back from a 0-2 deficit in the midst of the OSL finals is quite impressive. Once GGPlay reached 4 gas, it was over. Some of the best Hive play I've ever seen against very top tier terrans.
This OSL however, no one can deny that July had an easy route to the Finals. Rock, then Backho. PvZ chumps.
i really like leta and he has been playing very good tvt lately
backho isnt really a lesser player anymore since he has been dominating pros like bisu and jaedgon (was it jaedong?) all over the place and knocking them out i really dislike backho as well and hate his play but you have to admit that he has some skills
forgg is ranked way too high, he is going to get slaughtered by flash
also, have you seen the games of hwasin vs jaedong? he didnt get "totalled", he played extremely well and several of the plays can be pimpest play candidates, like hwasin's m&m micro vs lurkers and winning the battle that he shouldnt have been able to win, with 1 marine left alive. it was an exciting series to say the least and it isn't like jaedong was able to push hwasin over easily, he just made a couple of mistakes taht cost him the victory
[edit] i was making a case for best but i saw your explanation but i think that since the powerrank is done monthly, it should reflect the best player of the month. consistency should not be the main thing, but performance. and with that, best is undoubtedly number 1. his comeback vs luxury was simply epic
On July 10 2008 15:19 kpcrew(Gg) wrote: [edit] i was making a case for best but i saw your explanation but i think that since the powerrank is done monthly, it should reflect the best player of the month. consistency should not be the main thing, but performance. and with that, best is undoubtedly number 1. his comeback vs luxury was simply epic
Yeah, an epic choke by Luxury. Wasn't Bests win, it was Luxury's loss.
On July 10 2008 15:19 kpcrew(Gg) wrote: i really like leta and he has been playing very good tvt lately
backho isnt really a lesser player anymore since he has been dominating pros like bisu and jaedgon (was it jaedong?) all over the place and knocking them out i really dislike backho as well and hate his play but you have to admit that he has some skills
forgg is ranked way too high, he is going to get slaughtered by flash
also, have you seen the games of hwasin vs jaedong? he didnt get "totalled", he played extremely well and several of the plays can be pimpest play candidates, like hwasin's m&m micro vs lurkers and winning the battle that he shouldnt have been able to win, with 1 marine left alive. it was an exciting series to say the least and it isn't like jaedong was able to push hwasin over easily, he just made a couple of mistakes taht cost him the victory
[edit] i was making a case for best but i saw your explanation but i think that since the powerrank is done monthly, it should reflect the best player of the month. consistency should not be the main thing, but performance. and with that, best is undoubtedly number 1. his comeback vs luxury was simply epic
You do not attack 5 lurkers burrowed with MnM no matter how great your micro is he could have iradiated 4 or 2 with his vessels then go in .He was able to kill the lurkers but at what cost microing his ass of losing his army and vessels .And please Best barely won 1 series vs zerg and has played only PvP's JD has been rapeing in all 3 MUs .And please don't write stuff like best is on a 12321312311 games winning streak .
Hey Steve, I just have a sort of random question. Do you also look at "unofficial" matches when you're deciding? (I'm thinking mostly of the averatec-intel tournament) I'm just curious. Also, if you do look at them, do the players performances carry less weight than in the official matches?
On July 10 2008 21:51 elias poncho wrote: Hey Steve, I just have a sort of random question. Do you also look at "unofficial" matches when you're deciding? (I'm thinking mostly of the averatec-intel tournament) I'm just curious. Also, if you do look at them, do the players performances carry less weight than in the official matches?
I do, but the quality of opponent is often drastically lower in something like the averatec-intel classic. things like WWI i give absolutely no credit for
On July 10 2008 15:19 kpcrew(Gg) wrote: i really like leta and he has been playing very good tvt lately
backho isnt really a lesser player anymore since he has been dominating pros like bisu and jaedgon (was it jaedong?) all over the place and knocking them out i really dislike backho as well and hate his play but you have to admit that he has some skills
forgg is ranked way too high, he is going to get slaughtered by flash
also, have you seen the games of hwasin vs jaedong? he didnt get "totalled", he played extremely well and several of the plays can be pimpest play candidates, like hwasin's m&m micro vs lurkers and winning the battle that he shouldnt have been able to win, with 1 marine left alive. it was an exciting series to say the least and it isn't like jaedong was able to push hwasin over easily, he just made a couple of mistakes taht cost him the victory
[edit] i was making a case for best but i saw your explanation but i think that since the powerrank is done monthly, it should reflect the best player of the month. consistency should not be the main thing, but performance. and with that, best is undoubtedly number 1. his comeback vs luxury was simply epic
You do not attack 5 lurkers burrowed with MnM no matter how great your micro is he could have iradiated 4 or 2 with his vessels then go in .He was able to kill the lurkers but at what cost microing his ass of losing his army and vessels .And please Best barely won 1 series vs zerg and has played only PvP's JD has been rapeing in all 3 MUs .And please don't write stuff like best is on a 12321312311 games winning streak .
You can attack burrowed lurkers with marine medic. It's not hard, I do it all the time. I play SK style in like every TvZ I play and I bulldoze lurkers with relative ease
Its all positioning and upgrades, but yeah you can mow lurkers down same as anything else
On July 10 2008 21:51 elias poncho wrote: Hey Steve, I just have a sort of random question. Do you also look at "unofficial" matches when you're deciding? (I'm thinking mostly of the averatec-intel tournament) I'm just curious. Also, if you do look at them, do the players performances carry less weight than in the official matches?
I do, but the quality of opponent is often drastically lower in something like the averatec-intel classic. things like WWI i give absolutely no credit for
Great ranking. I laugh at everyone who is flipping out about Sea being #1. Sea seems like an awesome guy and I'm glad you decided to pay tribute to the Korean who is willing to contribute to and entertain us foreigners here at TL.
On July 10 2008 06:49 ThePhan2m wrote: thanks for the explenation, now that clears things up.
However, Best is no way GGplay. GGplay didnt play like Best does now, he went trough OSL with lucky oppnements, he never really had it. Tbh whole that OSL was a joke, and GGplay winning that OSL was just showing Gods big joke of luck prepared for the BW world. Maybe a Stork, maybe... guess we only have to wait and see. There is more than just skills that we have to take into count. Sadly enough, there will be alot of pressure on Best. But anyhow, Julyzerg hasnt really shown his strenght yet either? To think he is the old July, the war of God is to be hopeful, his former oppenements hasnt exactly been top players. SO SATURDAY! here we come! *drums*
Lol ?
GGplay a joke ? He had to beat Hwasin first (who is always very good in TvZ), then Flash (who has always been a TvZ monster ) then defeated Iris in 5 brillant set That OSL was a joke ? Seriously it produced the best TvZ of 2007, a lot of amazing series, it was one of the Best OSL seriously (savior vs iris, hwasin vs GGplay, Flash vs GGplay, iris vs GGplay, the other matchup i dont remember) Lucky opponents ? O_O
Ok thats all, i have lost faith in u
- Fantasy gave GGplay advantage as a Z vs Hwasin, Hwasin getting the worst spawn location, GGplay the best. Sucky map with ZvT(8-2), no wonder it got removed. 2nd game hwasin owned him. 3rd game was a blast, going to end game, very even, but yes, GGplay has a decent endgame. - Flash was a rookie back then, and was defenitly not considered as hard an opponent. - Both the supreme players, Bisu and Savior lost very unluckly, Bisu getting cheesed 2 times vs Flash, and then Savior play vs his teammate lowering his odds with ALOT in a b03. - If GGplay was that good, he would have stayed on top longer, but fell right after the finals. - If im not mistaken, he is also the player with the worst stats ever reaching a final.
All luck for GGplay? you are defenitly beeing a little ignorant if you dont think some of it is. Compare this with a player like Mind winning MSL, crushing both Savior and Bisu. Now thats different. You are right if he would have played vs someone that was champion right then. And then last face Iris in the finals, that defenitly was the favorite and had the pressure, though Iris TvZ wasnt his strongest mu. GGplay played well in finals, only cuz he played vs someone closer to his level, producing amazing close games. If it was Savior or Bisu vs him in the finals, it would have been a total different case. He wouldnt have had a chance. But we never know.
On July 10 2008 21:51 elias poncho wrote: Hey Steve, I just have a sort of random question. Do you also look at "unofficial" matches when you're deciding? (I'm thinking mostly of the averatec-intel tournament) I'm just curious. Also, if you do look at them, do the players performances carry less weight than in the official matches?
I do, but the quality of opponent is often drastically lower in something like the averatec-intel classic. things like WWI i give absolutely no credit for
How is quality of player lower in averatec-intel. Absence of teams? Less practice? Or actually, worse players?
On July 10 2008 06:49 ThePhan2m wrote: thanks for the explenation, now that clears things up.
However, Best is no way GGplay. GGplay didnt play like Best does now, he went trough OSL with lucky oppnements, he never really had it. Tbh whole that OSL was a joke, and GGplay winning that OSL was just showing Gods big joke of luck prepared for the BW world. Maybe a Stork, maybe... guess we only have to wait and see. There is more than just skills that we have to take into count. Sadly enough, there will be alot of pressure on Best. But anyhow, Julyzerg hasnt really shown his strenght yet either? To think he is the old July, the war of God is to be hopeful, his former oppenements hasnt exactly been top players. SO SATURDAY! here we come! *drums*
Lol ?
GGplay a joke ? He had to beat Hwasin first (who is always very good in TvZ), then Flash (who has always been a TvZ monster ) then defeated Iris in 5 brillant set That OSL was a joke ? Seriously it produced the best TvZ of 2007, a lot of amazing series, it was one of the Best OSL seriously (savior vs iris, hwasin vs GGplay, Flash vs GGplay, iris vs GGplay, the other matchup i dont remember) Lucky opponents ? O_O
Ok thats all, i have lost faith in u
- Fantasy gave GGplay advantage as a Z vs Hwasin, Hwasin getting the worst spawn location, GGplay the best. Sucky map with ZvT(8-2), no wonder it got removed. 2nd game hwasin owned him. 3rd game was a blast, going to end game, very even, but yes, GGplay has a decent endgame. - Flash was a rookie back then, and was defenitly not considered as hard an opponent. - Both the supreme players, Bisu and Savior lost very unluckly, Bisu getting cheesed 2 times vs Flash, and then Savior play vs his teammate lowering his odds with ALOT in a b03. - If GGplay was that good, he would have stayed on top longer, but fell right after the finals. - If im not mistaken, he is also the player with the worst stats ever reaching a final.
All luck for GGplay? you are defenitly beeing a little ignorant if you dont think some of it is. Compare this with a player like Mind winning MSL, crushing both Savior and Bisu. Now thats different. You are right if he would have played vs someone that was champion right then. And then last face Iris in the finals, that defenitly was the favorite and had the pressure, though Iris TvZ wasnt his strongest mu. GGplay played well in finals, only cuz he played vs someone closer to his level, producing amazing close games. If it was Savior or Bisu vs him in the finals, it would have been a total different case. He wouldnt have had a chance. But we never know.
Man , Best is lucky to be called GGplay now if he doesn't win vs July he wouldn't have even that title .
On July 10 2008 06:49 ThePhan2m wrote: thanks for the explenation, now that clears things up.
However, Best is no way GGplay. GGplay didnt play like Best does now, he went trough OSL with lucky oppnements, he never really had it. Tbh whole that OSL was a joke, and GGplay winning that OSL was just showing Gods big joke of luck prepared for the BW world. Maybe a Stork, maybe... guess we only have to wait and see. There is more than just skills that we have to take into count. Sadly enough, there will be alot of pressure on Best. But anyhow, Julyzerg hasnt really shown his strenght yet either? To think he is the old July, the war of God is to be hopeful, his former oppenements hasnt exactly been top players. SO SATURDAY! here we come! *drums*
Lol ?
GGplay a joke ? He had to beat Hwasin first (who is always very good in TvZ), then Flash (who has always been a TvZ monster ) then defeated Iris in 5 brillant set That OSL was a joke ? Seriously it produced the best TvZ of 2007, a lot of amazing series, it was one of the Best OSL seriously (savior vs iris, hwasin vs GGplay, Flash vs GGplay, iris vs GGplay, the other matchup i dont remember) Lucky opponents ? O_O
Ok thats all, i have lost faith in u
- Fantasy gave GGplay advantage as a Z vs Hwasin, Hwasin getting the worst spawn location, GGplay the best. Sucky map with ZvT(8-2), no wonder it got removed. 2nd game hwasin owned him. 3rd game was a blast, going to end game, very even, but yes, GGplay has a decent endgame. - Flash was a rookie back then, and was defenitly not considered as hard an opponent. - Both the supreme players, Bisu and Savior lost very unluckly, Bisu getting cheesed 2 times vs Flash, and then Savior play vs his teammate lowering his odds with ALOT in a b03. - If GGplay was that good, he would have stayed on top longer, but fell right after the finals. - If im not mistaken, he is also the player with the worst stats ever reaching a final.
All luck for GGplay? you are defenitly beeing a little ignorant if you dont think some of it is. Compare this with a player like Mind winning MSL, crushing both Savior and Bisu. Now thats different. You are right if he would have played vs someone that was champion right then. And then last face Iris in the finals, that defenitly was the favorite and had the pressure, though Iris TvZ wasnt his strongest mu. GGplay played well in finals, only cuz he played vs someone closer to his level, producing amazing close games. If it was Savior or Bisu vs him in the finals, it would have been a total different case. He wouldnt have had a chance. But we never know.
God u make me laugh - Hwasin was the best TvZ on earth (67,80 %) and GGPlay beated him in a straight way 2 match in a row, he wasnt lucky, u are trying to deny his skills, he was extremely skilled at that time ! He had a decent endgame ? Go rewatch his games against Flash and Iris, he was the sAviOr of Daum OSL ! - Flash was a rookie at that time, yes, but he had defeated Luxury and Jaedong previously ! He had a 80% record vs Zerg ! - Bisu and sAviOr werent lucky, yes and what ? can u predict what would have been the result ? Don't deny his skills. - he was that good and sported good result on proleague the season after going 11-6 (shinhan proleague 2007 round 2) - yes awful stat and why ? Because was there before and was a mediocre player then in late 2006 he stepped up his game and won in 2007 the Daum OSL and then fade away ? I hope that wasnt an argument to say that GGPlay was lucky.
And fuck u, he beat every single opposition on Monty Hall : - Stork - Flash - Iris On Fucking Monty Hall man ? what do u want more ? A medal ?
Look at his games ! He got one of the Best TvZ out here, his end game was superb, his macro-management fantastic, and his defiler Control was godly. One of his games is in the best game of 2007... he took the final to a 0-2 to a 3-2... That was just O_O
Daum OSL is one of the Best OSL and this is because of GGPlay, he got serious competition and won then with miraculous play
Saying he was lucky is the most stupid thing i have ever heard.
On July 10 2008 21:51 elias poncho wrote: Hey Steve, I just have a sort of random question. Do you also look at "unofficial" matches when you're deciding? (I'm thinking mostly of the averatec-intel tournament) I'm just curious. Also, if you do look at them, do the players performances carry less weight than in the official matches?
I do, but the quality of opponent is often drastically lower in something like the averatec-intel classic. things like WWI i give absolutely no credit for
How is quality of player lower in averatec-intel. Absence of teams? Less practice? Or actually, worse players?
Well, a bunch of teams didn't participate, which means in order to hit the 128 entrants they needed there was a ton of unknowns in the tournament. Like, for instance, fOrGG doesn't get any extra credit for beating up a terrible player like Effort.
'ey, Effort's owning up the minor league (or was =O). Beating the #1 [minor league] player earns him major props.
All luck for GGplay? you are defenitly beeing a little ignorant if you dont think some of it is. Compare this with a player like Mind winning MSL, crushing both Savior and Bisu. Now thats different. You are right if he would have played vs someone that was champion right then. And then last face Iris in the finals, that defenitly was the favorite and had the pressure, though Iris TvZ wasnt his strongest mu. GGplay played well in finals, only cuz he played vs someone closer to his level, producing amazing close games. If it was Savior or Bisu vs him in the finals, it would have been a total different case. He wouldnt have had a chance. But we never know.
Let's not forget everyone was 'wow'd by Iris's TvZ after two insane BO5's against Savior in the previous months. Since you make sAviOr the end all around that time (which he wasn't anymore) and Iris beat sAviOr, doesn't that say something about GGplay at the time? No one cares how GGplay did after the OSL, he played very well throughout. Perhaps an awful example: after losing to Bisu in the finals, sAviOr never won another Starleague! His OSL win must have been pure luck.
On July 12 2008 11:08 LucasWoJ wrote: 'ey, Effort's owning up the minor league (or was =O). Beating the #1 [minor league] player earns him major props.
After the OSL final ThePhan2m can forget about Best beeing #1 and eat his word that BEST actually stand greater chances then THE GOD OF FREAKING WAR !!!!
Yeah July's zvt is a bit untested as of late, and Best's semi and final matches have shown that his pvz isn't really up to par. It would be hard for any one of them of them to push down Jaedong or Flash as of now but there's still a few weeks left to the next PR.
Both July and Best may be unstoppable versus a protoss opponent (I question wether any protoss could take on JD in a bo3/5 either too). Unfortunately for Best in the OSL finals, he was the only protoss playing.
Biased for real this time. I know that you control the power rank, but I don't think non-game related issues like generosity and friendliness to TL should be considered in it. Maybe that's just my opinion. I'm not saying he's a bad player, I'm saying that he's not better than Flash or Jaedong.
On July 13 2008 04:48 fanatacist wrote: Biased for real this time. I know that you control the power rank, but I don't think non-game related issues like generosity and friendliness to TL should be considered in it. Maybe that's just my opinion. I'm not saying he's a bad player, I'm saying that he's not better than Flash or Jaedong.
On July 13 2008 04:48 fanatacist wrote: Biased for real this time. I know that you control the power rank, but I don't think non-game related issues like generosity and friendliness to TL should be considered in it. Maybe that's just my opinion. I'm not saying he's a bad player, I'm saying that he's not better than Flash or Jaedong.
On July 13 2008 04:48 fanatacist wrote: Biased for real this time. I know that you control the power rank, but I don't think non-game related issues like generosity and friendliness to TL should be considered in it. Maybe that's just my opinion. I'm not saying he's a bad player, I'm saying that he's not better than Flash or Jaedong.
On July 12 2008 19:33 raga4ka wrote: After the OSL final ThePhan2m can forget about Best beeing #1 and eat his word that BEST actually stand greater chances then THE GOD OF FREAKING WAR !!!!
Well the series were great, and July played really well in all games. Double cheese is hard to see coming, and obviously Best wasnt prepared and he got owned. He was very passive 3rd game, once July got upperhand with nice scouge control and eco advatage, it was pretty much gg already then, and Best played bad. It felt like Best was one step behind the whole time. There were obviously alot more nerves on him, than for July, considering this is his first big event finals and July has been trough countless. This is only the start for Best, next season he will win for sure ^^ I think however, if game 1 and 2 were longer and not cheesy, the results might have been different. Winning 1st or 2nd game means alot. Gives alot of confidence, and July knew that and took it to his advatage, all props to him!
The games were hard to predict, and I WAS WRONG. It was hard to predict how good July was, when he never plays. Grats to him getting the Golden mouse once again!
On July 12 2008 19:33 raga4ka wrote: After the OSL final ThePhan2m can forget about Best beeing #1 and eat his word that BEST actually stand greater chances then THE GOD OF FREAKING WAR !!!!
Well the series were great, and July played really well in all games. Double cheese is hard to see coming, and obviously Best wasnt prepared and he got owned. He was very passive 3rd game, once July got upperhand with nice scouge control and eco advatage, it was pretty much gg already then, and Best played bad. It felt like Best was one step behind the whole time. There were obviously alot more nerves on him, than for July, considering this is his first big event finals and July has been trough countless. This is only the start for Best, next season he will win for sure ^^ I think however, if game 1 and 2 were longer and not cheesy, the results might have been different. Winning 1st or 2nd game means alot. Gives alot of confidence, and July knew that and took it to his advatage, all props to him!
The games were hard to predict, and I WAS WRONG. It was hard to predict how good July was, when he never plays. Grats to him getting the Golden mouse once again!
July is one of the most consistantly surprising players
He plays phenomenally well at many points in his career when you really don't expect him to be able to
On July 13 2008 04:48 fanatacist wrote: Biased for real this time. I know that you control the power rank, but I don't think non-game related issues like generosity and friendliness to TL should be considered in it. Maybe that's just my opinion. I'm not saying he's a bad player, I'm saying that he's not better than Flash or Jaedong.
It took like 5 pages of comments and 3 bans to explain to people that Sea isn't #1 PR last time. Let's not do that again.
On July 13 2008 04:48 fanatacist wrote: Biased for real this time. I know that you control the power rank, but I don't think non-game related issues like generosity and friendliness to TL should be considered in it. Maybe that's just my opinion. I'm not saying he's a bad player, I'm saying that he's not better than Flash or Jaedong.
lol not again...............
Again? I've never complained about it previously. Others have, though.
What's wrong with sharing this opinion?
On July 14 2008 00:50 Purind wrote: Atleast he's polite about it
And Sea IS #1 PR because he IS the best player at the moment. Let's make that completely perfectly clear
I'm not trying to start a fuss, like I said it was just my opinion that it should be a purely skill-related ranking.
I think you were joking on this or at least not referring to skill-wise being best... Because he isn't better than Flash or Jaedong.
I get the point though, I won't say anything else.
On July 13 2008 04:48 fanatacist wrote: Biased for real this time. I know that you control the power rank, but I don't think non-game related issues like generosity and friendliness to TL should be considered in it. Maybe that's just my opinion. I'm not saying he's a bad player, I'm saying that he's not better than Flash or Jaedong.
lol not again...............
Again? I've never complained about it previously. Others have, though.
On July 13 2008 04:48 fanatacist wrote: Biased for real this time. I know that you control the power rank, but I don't think non-game related issues like generosity and friendliness to TL should be considered in it. Maybe that's just my opinion. I'm not saying he's a bad player, I'm saying that he's not better than Flash or Jaedong.
lol not again...............
Again? I've never complained about it previously. Others have, though.
What's wrong with sharing this opinion?
On July 14 2008 00:50 Purind wrote: Atleast he's polite about it
And Sea IS #1 PR because he IS the best player at the moment. Let's make that completely perfectly clear
I'm not trying to start a fuss, like I said it was just my opinion that it should be a purely skill-related ranking.
I think you were joking on this or at least not referring to skill-wise being best... Because he isn't better than Flash or Jaedong.
I get the point though, I won't say anything else.
you don't need to say these things, they should be obvious to anyone with half a brain
On July 15 2008 10:24 Manifesto7 wrote: DUR DUR READ THE THREAD DUR DUR
How many bans do you think could be avoided by reading the thread? After reading the facebook thread and this, I'm starting to wonder about the literacy rate of TLers. Me, I'd guess about 15-20% of all bans.
Honestly, I read the PR not for the value in itself, but for the hilarious bitchfest that inevitably follows. Just put Sea at #1 next month too to spite everyone.
I agree with this power rank,I had some ..doubts? when i saw Sea as number one,but thankfully it was explained it started after.
On July 18 2008 00:08 Waxangel wrote: I had a dream where I saw next month's power rank, and July was 1st place!
Then I woke up and I was sad
Maybe the next month he will be #1 as a appreciation for his golden mouse and that he showed that the old school can still make it happen . His influence is not as great as Sea , but i wouldn't mind seeing The God Of War #1 .
Edit: Flash's play is so predictable nowadays i think he should be lowered to maybe # 4 - 5 place for him next month .
Sucks for JD thought he gets to play a teammate in the important league again , it would have been much more easier for him if it was just Flash both mentally and skill wise. To win vs a teammate almost means that you are robing him of his success and at the same time it is hard because he knows you better then other progamers .
Flash play is predictable just like Savior or Bisu's. Bisu always go DT, Savior rushes hive. They go where they are comfortable. I think Flash lost his confidence when he lost to Luxury, and is now always trying to get his economy up faster, because hes more confident in his ability to macro than any other facet of the game.
There aren't many games left this month so go go predictions. I'm thinking top 5 for next month are:
1. Jaedong (without question)
2. Forgg (because in series vs Flash he showed that he is a more complete player than just a macro bot. If he wins MSL then 2'nd without question)
3. July (he is past prime unlike Best or Forgg but he got the fucking Golden Mouse)
4. Best (Shaky vs Lux, epic fail vs July. The OSL final was ALL July and I was shocked how Best was dominated. Best was also hitting himself repeatedly on the head afer the series indicating he was extremely disappointed. This could be a big mental toll on him and he could possibly slump.)
5. Flash (Flash is slumping, plain and simple. He is 7-12 in his last 19 games and is using the same macro oriented build every time. He has lost the spark, the confidence, and a high PR rank)
6-10. Kal, Luxury, Lomo, Leta, Shuttle.
Leta is hot. He is 4-0 this month and is on a 6 game win streak. If he wins in PL tomorrow he should have a low PR spot.
On July 19 2008 05:10 TheTyranid wrote: There aren't many games left this month so go go predictions. I'm thinking top 5 for next month are:
1. Jaedong (without question)
2. Forgg (because in series vs Flash he showed that he is a more complete player than just a macro bot. If he wins MSL then 2'nd without question)
3. July (he is past prime unlike Best or Forgg but he got the fucking Golden Mouse)
4. Best (Shaky vs Lux, epic fail vs July. The OSL final was ALL July and I was shocked how Best was dominated. Best was also hitting himself repeatedly on the head afer the series indicating he was extremely disappointed. This could be a big mental toll on him and he could possibly slump.)
5. Flash (Flash is slumping, plain and simple. He is 7-12 in his last 19 games and is using the same macro oriented build every time. He has lost the spark, the confidence, and a high PR rank)
6-10. Kal, Luxury, Lomo, Leta, Shuttle.
Leta is hot. He is 4-0 this month and is on a 6 game win streak. If he wins in PL tomorrow he should have a low PR spot.
July at @3 are you kidding me? Hes only beaten protoss, and not even Protoss [remotely] known for their pvz. In fact, quite the opposite. At best July should get five considering his untested zvt and lack of quality opponents. I'd say:
1. jaedong
2. forgg
3. Best
4. Kal
5. July
6. Flash
7. Luxury
8. Hwasin
9. Lomo
10. I have no idea. I can think of a lot of people for cbnc but not for #10...
the only ranking on which July might be above #5 is the korean progamer weight chart... he has ONE good match-up and that finally brought him the OSL win. It surely was the luckiest win in progaming history, beating a medium Zerg, a drunken Luxury, 2 Ps who really suck at PvZ and finally Best who was playing his worst series this year. His win vs. Luxury was followed by a loss against fake-Yellow (43% vs. Z) so this is kind of compensated and we can't call his ZvZ anything but medium. His ZvT is untested as mentioned above; remember he won his last bo3/bo5 vs. T two years ago!! So he shouldn't be ranked really that high. In my mind a good choice would be
1/2. Forgg/Jaedong (there is the final to put them into the right order) 3. Best (played like total ass in the finals, but still one of the best) 4. Luxury 5. Flash (well.. it's getting down) 6. July (though I hate him, a golden mouse is golden mouse is a golden mouse is...) 7. Kal (tough player, great series vs. forgg) 8. FBH 9. Jangbi (same as FBH, they made Samsung KHAN finishing first in Pro League) 10. Pure
On July 19 2008 05:10 TheTyranid wrote: There aren't many games left this month so go go predictions. I'm thinking top 5 for next month are:
1. Jaedong (without question)
2. Forgg (because in series vs Flash he showed that he is a more complete player than just a macro bot. If he wins MSL then 2'nd without question)
3. July (he is past prime unlike Best or Forgg but he got the fucking Golden Mouse)
4. Best (Shaky vs Lux, epic fail vs July. The OSL final was ALL July and I was shocked how Best was dominated. Best was also hitting himself repeatedly on the head afer the series indicating he was extremely disappointed. This could be a big mental toll on him and he could possibly slump.)
5. Flash (Flash is slumping, plain and simple. He is 7-12 in his last 19 games and is using the same macro oriented build every time. He has lost the spark, the confidence, and a high PR rank)
6-10. Kal, Luxury, Lomo, Leta, Shuttle.
Leta is hot. He is 4-0 this month and is on a 6 game win streak. If he wins in PL tomorrow he should have a low PR spot.
July at @3 are you kidding me? Hes only beaten protoss, and not even Protoss [remotely] known for their pvz. In fact, quite the opposite. At best July should get five considering his untested zvt and lack of quality opponents. I'd say:
1. jaedong
2. forgg
3. Best
4. Kal
5. July
6. Flash
7. Luxury
8. Hwasin
9. Lomo
10. I have no idea. I can think of a lot of people for cbnc but not for #10...
Flash @6 are you kidding me?
Best in the world as I see it right now. And I look beyond individual leagues unlike some of you.
1. Jaedong 2. Flash 3. Hwasin (yup) 4. Sea (yup) 5. Stork (yup) 6. Best (won't make another starleague final in my eyes but hes solid and will hang around) 7. Luxury 8. Kal 9. July (don't care if he won OSL, his vs P / Z are top notch but his v T is still average for a pro) 10. NaDa (ForGG, Jangbi and Mind close behind)
With Sir.sAviOr after that for simply being awesome and extremely underrated right now.
@ Polar Bear Jaedong imo is guaranteed 1'st for next month. Jaedong raped, R-A-P-E-D Much so hard that even my own behind felt a sting. ForGG did not even come close to dominating his quarters and semis opponentsas Jaedong did. Even if ForGG wins the MSL, he should only be ranked 2'nd. Even though he is starting to look like a complete player, he is untested just like Best. What if he slumps hard right after the MSL win and never comes back? Also he lost 2-0 to Shuttle in the GSL and that will count against him and his fearsome TvP.
@ Scarface, what has Kal done to be 2 spots above Flash?
On July 19 2008 07:36 TheTyranid wrote: @ Scarface, what has Kal done to be 2 spots above Flash?
Uhh what has Flash done in the last two months to warrant our continued confidence in him? Hes my favourite pro gamer, but I have to admit hes looking poor. He would receive fifth or sixth place because of how strong he was not long ago, not because of his current strength. If he continues to play the way he currently is, frankly, he wont be on the Power rank in a few months.
Kal is the best right now in Protoss vs Zerg, a very strong Pvt player, and solid [though not great] at pvp. Hes winning matches. Thats something more than can be said for Flash. Hes all around and consistent, which is also more than be said for July and Best. Best has problems with pvz, and July has not shown strong zvt in a long time. Just as when Kal reached 4th place on the power rank, it was more as a result of others failures than his own merits, is the same way he will achieve 3rd. Other than forgg and Jaedong, no one is more consistent and all rounded.
On July 19 2008 07:36 TheTyranid wrote: Lol G5 that is not a serious list is it?
@ Polar Bear Jaedong imo is guaranteed 1'st for next month. Jaedong raped, R-A-P-E-D Much so hard that even my own behind felt a sting. ForGG did not even come close to dominating his quarters and semis opponentsas Jaedong did. Even if ForGG wins the MSL, he should only be ranked 2'nd. Even though he is starting to look like a complete player, he is untested just like Best. What if he slumps hard right after the MSL win and never comes back? Also he lost 2-0 to Shuttle in the GSL and that will count against him and his fearsome TvP.
@ Scarface, what has Kal done to be 2 spots above Flash?
He wasn't as dominant, but I think he did good enough considering the opponents. A lot of people were saying Flash has the best TvT, and maybe he still does. The 2-0 over Sea looks a lot more like ForGG winning instead of Sea choking now. Kal is also very solid. This sounds like he's been tested against tough opponents, not untested.
Don't get me wrong, Jaedong is obviously number 1 now and doing very well, but if ForGG wins I think he will have proven himself.
Lol, after reading this I can't believe I'm arguing fucking ForGG to take the number 1 spot in power rank.
On July 19 2008 06:22 Polar_Bear wrote: the only ranking on which July might be above #5 is the korean progamer weight chart... he has ONE good match-up and that finally brought him the OSL win. It surely was the luckiest win in progaming history, beating a medium Zerg, a drunken Luxury, 2 Ps who really suck at PvZ and finally Best who was playing his worst series this year. His win vs. Luxury was followed by a loss against fake-Yellow (43% vs. Z) so this is kind of compensated and we can't call his ZvZ anything but medium. His ZvT is untested as mentioned above; remember he won his last bo3/bo5 vs. T two years ago!! So he shouldn't be ranked really that high. In my mind a good choice would be
1/2. Forgg/Jaedong (there is the final to put them into the right order) 3. Best (played like total ass in the finals, but still one of the best) 4. Luxury 5. Flash (well.. it's getting down) 6. July (though I hate him, a golden mouse is golden mouse is a golden mouse is...) 7. Kal (tough player, great series vs. forgg) 8. FBH 9. Jangbi (same as FBH, they made Samsung KHAN finishing first in Pro League) 10. Pure
July has 2 good mach ups ZvZ and ZvP althought he is not as dominant as Best , but he sure did kill him in the finals . I wouldn't mind seeing July above Best for that matter . I don't know who sucked more this month Best or Flash , but it has to be Flash . I don't know if the Intel classic is at all influencing this rank at all ...
On July 19 2008 06:22 Polar_Bear wrote: His win vs. Luxury was followed by a loss against fake-Yellow (43% vs. Z) so this is kind of compensated and we can't call his ZvZ anything but medium.
The results of that game didn't matter. I would be surprised if he was trying his best.
On July 19 2008 05:10 TheTyranid wrote: There aren't many games left this month so go go predictions. I'm thinking top 5 for next month are:
1. Jaedong (without question)
2. Forgg (because in series vs Flash he showed that he is a more complete player than just a macro bot. If he wins MSL then 2'nd without question)
3. July (he is past prime unlike Best or Forgg but he got the fucking Golden Mouse)
4. Best (Shaky vs Lux, epic fail vs July. The OSL final was ALL July and I was shocked how Best was dominated. Best was also hitting himself repeatedly on the head afer the series indicating he was extremely disappointed. This could be a big mental toll on him and he could possibly slump.)
5. Flash (Flash is slumping, plain and simple. He is 7-12 in his last 19 games and is using the same macro oriented build every time. He has lost the spark, the confidence, and a high PR rank)
6-10. Kal, Luxury, Lomo, Leta, Shuttle.
Leta is hot. He is 4-0 this month and is on a 6 game win streak. If he wins in PL tomorrow he should have a low PR spot.
July at @3 are you kidding me? Hes only beaten protoss, and not even Protoss [remotely] known for their pvz. In fact, quite the opposite. At best July should get five considering his untested zvt and lack of quality opponents. I'd say:
1. jaedong
2. forgg
3. Best
4. Kal
5. July
6. Flash
7. Luxury
8. Hwasin
9. Lomo
10. I have no idea. I can think of a lot of people for cbnc but not for #10...
Flash @6 are you kidding me?
Best in the world as I see it right now. And I look beyond individual leagues unlike some of you.
1. Jaedong 2. Flash 3. Hwasin (yup) 4. Sea (yup) 5. Stork (yup) 6. Best (won't make another starleague final in my eyes but hes solid and will hang around) 7. Luxury 8. Kal 9. July (don't care if he won OSL, his vs P / Z are top notch but his v T is still average for a pro) 10. NaDa (ForGG, Jangbi and Mind close behind)
With Sir.sAviOr after that for simply being awesome and extremely underrated right now.
I might be wrong and cynical by saying this but seems like TL make sea number one because he agreed to the TL attack? Im not saying that he's bad or anything, but I just dont feel like he should be number 1.
On July 22 2008 04:37 NexyNexy wrote: I might be wrong and cynical by saying this but seems like TL make sea number one because he agreed to the TL attack? Im not saying that he's bad or anything, but I just dont feel like he should be number 1.
Well at least you were nice about saying it unlike some people. Just ignore Sea's placement, move everybody up one spot and put much at number 10 and voila! the real powerrank appears
On July 22 2008 04:37 NexyNexy wrote: I might be wrong and cynical by saying this but seems like TL make sea number one because he agreed to the TL attack? Im not saying that he's bad or anything, but I just dont feel like he should be number 1.
On July 22 2008 04:37 NexyNexy wrote: I might be wrong and cynical by saying this but seems like TL make sea number one because he agreed to the TL attack? Im not saying that he's bad or anything, but I just dont feel like he should be number 1.
I have read it, I just dont think that people should be "ranked" like this. I mean, maybe you do, but like thats your opinion and I have my opinion on this too.
On July 22 2008 04:37 NexyNexy wrote: I might be wrong and cynical by saying this but seems like TL make sea number one because he agreed to the TL attack? Im not saying that he's bad or anything, but I just dont feel like he should be number 1.
I have read it, I just dont think that people should be "ranked" like this. I mean, maybe you do, but like thats your opinion and I have my opinion on this too.
On July 22 2008 04:37 NexyNexy wrote: I might be wrong and cynical by saying this but seems like TL make sea number one because he agreed to the TL attack? Im not saying that he's bad or anything, but I just dont feel like he should be number 1.
I have read it, I just dont think that people should be "ranked" like this. I mean, maybe you do, but like thats your opinion and I have my opinion on this too.
Sea isn't #1 for the official PR. He's just there to remind everyone how awesome he's been for the last month. The real PR starts from Jaedong to Much. Don't take things too literally.
July not deserving of a higher rank because his ZvT is untested, but is OSL champ + has golden mouse? While stork not too long ago was at 2nd spot, losing all important matches and losing to the worst zergs on the face of the earth. Bullshit reason, just say you don't like him. You guys suck and I'm glad FakeSteve does the PowerRank
On July 23 2008 04:49 Agahnim wrote: July not deserving of a higher rank because his ZvT is untested, but is OSL champ + has golden mouse? While stork not too long ago was at 2nd spot, losing all important matches and losing to the worst zergs on the face of the earth. Bullshit reason, just say you don't like him. You guys suck and I'm glad FakeSteve does the PowerRank
Stork was placed 2'nd an entire year ago and for a good reason. He was the 2'nd best player in the world. Etter even considered putting him at 1'st because at that time he was raping in PL, MSL, and OSL to an extent. July should deserve huge props for the Golden Mouse but now that I think about it, would he be a favourite against Jaedong, Flash , ForGG, or Hwasin. No, he would be a big underdog against all those players. I now think July should be no higher than 5. The day following the OSL win he lost a 2v2 match in PL. He rocked the OSL and played like top 3 but he just doesn't have the future of rising players like Best or Forgg. Watch, July will be almost nonexistant next month... unfortunately.
On July 23 2008 04:49 Agahnim wrote: July not deserving of a higher rank because his ZvT is untested, but is OSL champ + has golden mouse? While stork not too long ago was at 2nd spot, losing all important matches and losing to the worst zergs on the face of the earth. Bullshit reason, just say you don't like him. You guys suck and I'm glad FakeSteve does the PowerRank
Stork was placed 2'nd an entire year ago and for a good reason. He was the 2'nd best player in the world. Etter even considered putting him at 1'st because at that time he was raping in PL, MSL, and OSL to an extent. July should deserve huge props for the Golden Mouse but now that I think about it, would he be a favourite against Jaedong, Flash , ForGG, or Hwasin. No, he would be a big underdog against all those players. I now think July should be no higher than 5. The day following the OSL win he lost a 2v2 match in PL. He rocked the OSL and played like top 3 but he just doesn't have the future of rising players like Best or Forgg. Watch, July will be almost nonexistant next month... unfortunately.
july played like a hero in that 2v2, soo is just awful
1) Jaedong (no doubt, even if he loses this finals vs ForGG, he still deserves this spot)
2) Flash (Yes, he's been losing recently and not performing well but I still see his skill way higher than other players at the moment...he's just having a rough time "bad gaming days maybe?")
3) ForGG ( Even though he beat Flash, I still feel hesitant about moving him up a spot just because he won over Flash through build order wins. A win is still a win but I haven't seen ForGG verse any tough opponents lately. I would rank him #3 because no one else is deserving this spot)
4) Best (Lost the match against July but I still see him as beastly...just not in PvZs)
5) July (Well been doing well lately, won a tournament, golden mouse, blah blah but haven't seen him face tough opponents)
lol two months of flash playing off and its still just a few bad games? Theres only so much leniency that is acceptable. I agree with your list only flash drops to 6 and kal to 5 or 4. Hes more well rounded than July, but I really don't care either way.
On July 23 2008 06:35 ScarFace wrote: Yeah I think its showing something when your team does not even play you as a 1v1 after you win an OSL :\
No, it isn't that simple. There could be several reasons why the coach didn't put him in the 1v1 lineup:
- rest: after winning the golden mouse it is much deserved
- preparation: July would have been coming in on limited rest.
- maps - they designate certain players to certain maps for PL. The 1v1 maps in this seasons PL don't favor zerg as much. That is why we see a lot of TvT or TvP. Hell, look at the OGN lineup against SKT1. Do you see Luxury in there? No, they're sitting out one of their premier players.
- OSL curse. OH YEAH! It's there.
- 2v2: zerg owns. Especially when it's Julyzerg because of his flawless ling/mutalisk micro.
On July 25 2008 13:39 ScarFace wrote: lol two months of flash playing off and its still just a few bad games? Theres only so much leniency that is acceptable. I agree with your list only flash drops to 6 and kal to 5 or 4. Hes more well rounded than July, but I really don't care either way.
It's funny how you put down a player you really like. I don't thing Flash should drop down to 6. Placing Kal and July above Flash is questionable. Both of them did have a better month than Flash but he is still the stronger player. It's like putting Best over Jaedong because he had a better month. No one knows is Flash is having a hiccup, or a down-spiraling Savioresque slump. However, we have a perfect opportunity to find out, Flash vs Backho. If Flash rapes Backho then there is no way he should be below 4'th. If Flash wins unconvincingly (3-2) then his placement is up for debate with 6'th being legitimate. If Flash looses to Backho, then it will be safe to say that Flash is slumping hard; 6'th at most.
On July 25 2008 13:39 ScarFace wrote: lol two months of flash playing off and its still just a few bad games? Theres only so much leniency that is acceptable. I agree with your list only flash drops to 6 and kal to 5 or 4. Hes more well rounded than July, but I really don't care either way.
It's funny how you put down a player you really like. I don't thing Flash should drop down to 6. Placing Kal and July above Flash is questionable. Both of them did have a better month than Flash but he is still the stronger player. It's like putting Best over Jaedong because he had a better month. No one knows is Flash is having a hiccup, or a down-spiraling Savioresque slump. However, we have a perfect opportunity to find out, Flash vs Backho. If Flash rapes Backho then there is no way he should be below 4'th. If Flash wins unconvincingly (3-2) then his placement is up for debate with 6'th being legitimate. If Flash looses to Backho, then it will be safe to say that Flash is slumping hard; 6'th at most.
Flash isn't better if he can't make desicions well enough to not 14cc every TvT, especially in a series against Lomo where he should have learned the first game not to do that.
He lost to Luxury, who isn't as good as Jaedong, Jangbi who isn't as good as Kal or BeSt, and he hasn't done too well in PL. He dropped a game to Memory which was less than stellar. Flash is not playing like he is better than any of these players. Because he's predictable. And people may say "OH FUCK LOMO IS A BITCH FOR CHEESING LOLOLOL". But at least he was smart enough to take advantage of the element of surprise, and actually use...strategy.
Sheer mechanics aren't enough at a level of competition that exists now in the scene. Flash needs to shape up.
Fakesteve, what you need to do is hate on SKT and Bisu a bit for me please. Because every player you've said "meh, he's overrated but if he lifts his game TBH we could have a real contender here" of late seems to be lifting their game when it counts. Kal, Forgg - etc. You're calling all the ones who could lift their game and be monsters and eventually go on to do just that, as they both now are. Been this an ability to see into the future or magic powers, or simply ace game analysis I have no idea, but it has been interesting to note despite all the nasty things thrown yer way.
On July 26 2008 19:06 HaXxorIzed wrote: Fakesteve, what you need to do is hate on SKT and Bisu a bit for me please. Because every player you've said "meh, he's overrated but if he lifts his game TBH we could have a real contender here" of late seems to be lifting their game when it counts. Kal, Forgg - etc. You're calling all the ones who could lift their game and be monsters and eventually go on to do just that, as they both now are. Been this an ability to see into the future or magic powers, or simply ace game analysis I have no idea, but it has been interesting to note despite all the nasty things thrown yer way.
Ie, Forgg with his wins over Flash and Jaedong, Kal transitioning from a relatively meh player to a regular in the leagues, etcetc.
I know my shit, man
It's the most surreal thing, and I can't believe I'm going to do it, but there is simply no candidate other than ForGG for the top spot next month. Let's have a look at what he's done lately:
2-0 vs Sea, consistently the best TvT player on earth, by using strong, aggressive build orders
3-2 in an incredible series against Kal, where both players brought the wierdest shit I've ever seen and executed to the full potential of said wierd shit
3-1 vs Flash, perfectly countering Flash's no-scout-14-cc-sup TvT with (again, and this is an important point) well-executed all-ins
3-0 vs Jaedong in completely standard play, finally mixing strong game sense into his world's-best macromanagement.
These are the best fucking players in the world, and somehow FORGG OF ALL PEOPLE learned how to do something other than make 3000 units (and throw them away) and absolutely SHITRAPED everyone he played.
I still don't know how the fuck this happened, but we can't deny that it has. ForGG will be August's #1.
fOrGG - There's simply nobody left for him to beat to prove himself.
JaeDong - Didn't play badly vs fOrGG. Still a very strong player.
July - Didn't do much this month except win a fucking golden mouse. Right now we don't know how well he'll play, nor for how long. But given what we've seen he's taking #3.
FlaSh - Ok, so he lost to fOrGG. I'm not going to judge him for that because when it comes to losing to fOrGG he keeps some pretty good company.
BeSt - He was a monster on his OSL run and I see no reason why that will have changed. He may have lost the finals but he's still a top level player.
Kal - Kal just keeps on going. Not great but still performing at a high enough level to justify this spot.
Luxury - A 2-0 against FlaSh still goes a long way. I'm not prepared to right off Luxury yet.
Lomo - Still showing great shape. His losses against JD were tragic and proved that he's lacking the certain something that the top 4 share. But a consistantly good player none the less.
Shuttle - Who? Shuttle appeared in the Avertec Intel Classic and reminded me an awful lot of Kal in the GOM MSL S3. His play was consistantly good and he came out with a series of wins against top players. He may have lost to JaeDong but so did Kal. I see a bright future for him.
BackHo - Questions still linger over BackHos play. Questions like "Who the fuck taught you to play?", "What happened to your army?" and "Why the fuck did you think that was a good idea?". But when it comes down to it BackHo keeps winning games against good opponents.
Jaedong: I don't see him going down in flames anytime soon.
Best: PVZ needs a lot of work but his pvp is flawless and his pvt is world class, while other people may be more well rounded now, none of them are playing at his level- in his good match ups.
Flash: Seems to be petering around but preferential treatment is sometimes given, but should be dropped next month if he doesn't prove that hes still a monster.
Kal: All round strong player, but not really a champion.
July: Your osl was full of cream puff opponents, prove to me you can zvt and that you are truly back, and you will go higher up. As of now, you just aren't as well rounded as people above you, and haven't really faced any quality enemies in a long series- Best's pvz is awkward.
Luxury: Duh
Hwasin: Nothing has showed me he still isn't a very strong player. Will he be winning a star league? Probably not, but hes still strong as hell.
Lomo: He's got style, and he went far last MSL, he will probably do the same this season.
Shuttle: Semi Final of the GSL? Yes please, welcome to the PR.
On July 27 2008 01:20 ScarFace wrote: FORGG: Alright, hes good. Very good.
Jaedong: I don't see him going down in flames anytime soon.
Best: PVZ needs a lot of work but his pvp is flawless and his pvt is world class, while other people may be more well rounded now, none of them are playing at his level- in his good match ups.
Flash: Seems to be petering around but preferential treatment is sometimes given, but should be dropped next month if he doesn't prove that hes still a monster.
Kal: All round strong player, but not really a champion.
July: Your osl was full of cream puff opponents, prove to me you can zvt and that you are truly back, and you will go higher up. As of now, you just aren't as well rounded as people above you, and haven't really faced any quality enemies in a long series- Best's pvz is awkward.
Luxury: Duh
Hwasin: Nothing has showed me he still isn't a very strong player. Will he be winning a star league? Probably not, but hes still strong as hell.
Lomo: He's got style, and he went far last MSL, he will probably do the same this season.
Shuttle: Semi Final of the GSL? Yes please, welcome to the PR.
Flash has been slumping for 2 months now. Kal and July are playing better.
Also if Shuttle gets PR so should BackHO. Besides, Shuttle hasn't beaten anyone good in PL really. I have a feeling he'll be on by next season though. BackHo got way better results.
Also, watch out for the zerg Huskal. His game against Hwasin in the GSL were pretty amazing. If he cleans up his micro he should be getting results next season.
On July 27 2008 01:20 ScarFace wrote: FORGG: Alright, hes good. Very good.
Jaedong: I don't see him going down in flames anytime soon.
Best: PVZ needs a lot of work but his pvp is flawless and his pvt is world class, while other people may be more well rounded now, none of them are playing at his level- in his good match ups.
Flash: Seems to be petering around but preferential treatment is sometimes given, but should be dropped next month if he doesn't prove that hes still a monster.
Kal: All round strong player, but not really a champion.
July: Your osl was full of cream puff opponents, prove to me you can zvt and that you are truly back, and you will go higher up. As of now, you just aren't as well rounded as people above you, and haven't really faced any quality enemies in a long series- Best's pvz is awkward.
Luxury: Duh
Hwasin: Nothing has showed me he still isn't a very strong player. Will he be winning a star league? Probably not, but hes still strong as hell.
Lomo: He's got style, and he went far last MSL, he will probably do the same this season.
Shuttle: Semi Final of the GSL? Yes please, welcome to the PR.
Flash has been slumping for 2 months now. Kal and July are playing better.
Also if Shuttle gets PR so should BackHO. Besides, Shuttle hasn't beaten anyone good in PL really. I have a feeling he'll be on by next season though. BackHo got way better results.
Also, watch out for the zerg Huskal. His game against Hwasin in the GSL were pretty amazing. If he cleans up his micro he should be getting results next season.
If I was going to put anyone above Flash it would be Kal, but not July. Hes not well rounded. As to Backho, hes got one good match up. Hes TERRIBLE at pvz, meh at pvt. He makes the most idiotic of decisions. I don't care if he makes it to a semi final of the gsl or not, hes still playing worse than shuttle and everyone else on the pr, indisputably.
On July 27 2008 01:20 ScarFace wrote: FORGG: Alright, hes good. Very good.
Jaedong: I don't see him going down in flames anytime soon.
Best: PVZ needs a lot of work but his pvp is flawless and his pvt is world class, while other people may be more well rounded now, none of them are playing at his level- in his good match ups.
Flash: Seems to be petering around but preferential treatment is sometimes given, but should be dropped next month if he doesn't prove that hes still a monster.
Kal: All round strong player, but not really a champion.
July: Your osl was full of cream puff opponents, prove to me you can zvt and that you are truly back, and you will go higher up. As of now, you just aren't as well rounded as people above you, and haven't really faced any quality enemies in a long series- Best's pvz is awkward.
Luxury: Duh
Hwasin: Nothing has showed me he still isn't a very strong player. Will he be winning a star league? Probably not, but hes still strong as hell.
Lomo: He's got style, and he went far last MSL, he will probably do the same this season.
Shuttle: Semi Final of the GSL? Yes please, welcome to the PR.
Flash has been slumping for 2 months now. Kal and July are playing better.
Also if Shuttle gets PR so should BackHO. Besides, Shuttle hasn't beaten anyone good in PL really. I have a feeling he'll be on by next season though. BackHo got way better results.
Also, watch out for the zerg Huskal. His game against Hwasin in the GSL were pretty amazing. If he cleans up his micro he should be getting results next season.
If I was going to put anyone above Flash it would be Kal, but not July. Hes not well rounded. As to Backho, hes got one good match up. Hes TERRIBLE at pvz, meh at pvt. He makes the most idiotic of decisions. I don't care if he makes it to a semi final of the gsl or not, hes still playing worse than shuttle and everyone else on the pr, indisputably.
And OSL semis.
If Flash can pull off the GSL, I'd trust him over July, but he hasn't even gotten decent results in PL against less than stellar players. He needs to rethink his TvT.
You can't argue with results. BackHO should get at least the tenth spot. He did will in the individual leagues, and he definitely didn't have a cream puff list of opponents. Shuttle did well in GSL, which is the least important starleague, and he's been near useless in PL.
On July 27 2008 01:20 ScarFace wrote: FORGG: Alright, hes good. Very good.
Jaedong: I don't see him going down in flames anytime soon.
Best: PVZ needs a lot of work but his pvp is flawless and his pvt is world class, while other people may be more well rounded now, none of them are playing at his level- in his good match ups.
Flash: Seems to be petering around but preferential treatment is sometimes given, but should be dropped next month if he doesn't prove that hes still a monster.
Kal: All round strong player, but not really a champion.
July: Your osl was full of cream puff opponents, prove to me you can zvt and that you are truly back, and you will go higher up. As of now, you just aren't as well rounded as people above you, and haven't really faced any quality enemies in a long series- Best's pvz is awkward.
Luxury: Duh
Hwasin: Nothing has showed me he still isn't a very strong player. Will he be winning a star league? Probably not, but hes still strong as hell.
Lomo: He's got style, and he went far last MSL, he will probably do the same this season.
Shuttle: Semi Final of the GSL? Yes please, welcome to the PR.
Flash has been slumping for 2 months now. Kal and July are playing better.
Also if Shuttle gets PR so should BackHO. Besides, Shuttle hasn't beaten anyone good in PL really. I have a feeling he'll be on by next season though. BackHo got way better results.
Also, watch out for the zerg Huskal. His game against Hwasin in the GSL were pretty amazing. If he cleans up his micro he should be getting results next season.
If I was going to put anyone above Flash it would be Kal, but not July. Hes not well rounded. As to Backho, hes got one good match up. Hes TERRIBLE at pvz, meh at pvt. He makes the most idiotic of decisions. I don't care if he makes it to a semi final of the gsl or not, hes still playing worse than shuttle and everyone else on the pr, indisputably.
End of the day he's just come off wins against Kal, Ganzi and Stork in the GSL and JangBi, Bisu and Much in the OSL. Name one player I didn't list as above him in my rank who could do that. I mean jeez. Kal is very good. JangBi, Stork, Much and Bisu are all top level players and even Ganzi is showing some great play. Show me another contender for #10 who produces anything like that quality of results and I'll agree with you. Just claiming somebody else is more skilled than him when BackHo wins the games and they don't displays a very poor understanding of what skill does.
You know Bisu didn't get 1'st place after he 3-0 Nalra and 3-0 Savior. Those were the best vs P players of that time but Bisu has still remained below Savior. If we compare Bisu's and ForGG's road, Bisu's was far more spectacular. Nalra + Savior >> Flash + Jaedong. I honestly think (and hope of course) that ForGG will just be another Mind and will slump after these finals.
On July 26 2008 19:53 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: by the way, i hereby give everyone carte blanche to make fun of me in this thread for thinking there was no way forgg could beat jaedong in the final
the penalty for being smug because you're usually right is that people get to have some fun when you're wrong
HEY STEVE REMEMBER OUR BATTLE.NET DISCUSSION OF THESE FINALS? "Jaedong will rape that scrub, fOrGG sucks, no chance, are you fucking serious" etc.
Can we plz have July over Best. July won't be doing that much other than 2v2, and Best has all the time in the world to rise to the top. Just my input.
On July 27 2008 06:45 Athos wrote: Can we plz have July over Best. July won't be doing that much other than 2v2, and Best has all the time in the world to rise to the top. Just my input.
That would be great, if July was doing better, and had a more consistent record this month. But he doesn't.
On July 27 2008 04:50 TheTyranid wrote: Sigh...... SIGH
You know Bisu didn't get 1'st place after he 3-0 Nalra and 3-0 Savior. Those were the best vs P players of that time but Bisu has still remained below Savior. If we compare Bisu's and ForGG's road, Bisu's was far more spectacular. Nalra + Savior >> Flash + Jaedong. I honestly think (and hope of course) that ForGG will just be another Mind and will slump after these finals.
Jaedong for #1. PLEASE! ! ! ! ! ! !
I think overall, Flash and Jaedong are way stronger than Savior and Nal_rA were. Mostly because there's an obvious weak link in the second pair.
Bisu beat Iris/Canata in the first round and lost to rA, then beat Hwasin, Light, Nal_rA, and Savior. Meanwhile ForGG beat Kal/HerO in the first round, Sea, Kal, Flash, and Jaedong. Even if you count the first round as roughly even (although ForGG didn't need an extra game), Hwasin wasn't very good at TvP back then, Light has always been shaky (although he was emerging as MBC's ace at the time). So even if you consider Savior+Nal_rA>Flash+Jaedong (I don't), Sea and Kal are way stronger contenders than Hwasin and Light were.
Bisu may have notched down Savior and not gotten #1, but ForGG undid the consistent #1 and #2 of the power rank, plus Kal who has been middling in the PR for quite some time. Compare this to Bisu: Etter didn't even put him on the PR after beating Light. Nal_rA and Hwasin were middle of the pack the month before. Bisu's path would have been as hard as ForGG's if he had to beat someone like Midas (although looking back on that MSL, the Terrans were quite weak). Although SKT1's one starleague policy kept that from happening.
At any rate, at no point did ForGG look all that weak on his way to winning this MSL. Bisu did, and his competition was a good deal easier than ForGG's (exception being Savior). ForGG is an easy #1 in my book.
Incidentally Etter put Jaedong at #10 the month Bisu took over #1. >_>
I guess the only hope now for Jaedong would be an absolute RAPE, more so than he received in the MSL, over Flash to prove his ZvT is not weak and he is a champion. (For the #1 spot)
On July 27 2008 04:50 TheTyranid wrote: Sigh...... SIGH
You know Bisu didn't get 1'st place after he 3-0 Nalra and 3-0 Savior. Those were the best vs P players of that time but Bisu has still remained below Savior. If we compare Bisu's and ForGG's road, Bisu's was far more spectacular. Nalra + Savior >> Flash + Jaedong. I honestly think (and hope of course) that ForGG will just be another Mind and will slump after these finals.
Jaedong for #1. PLEASE! ! ! ! ! ! !
You made the very point for forgg being number 1. Jaedong is not Savior. FORGG beat them, he overtakes them. There is no 'bonjwa' right now.
I'm going to make a bold prediction: we're never going to see another player dominating all the leagues ever again. It's too difficult to stay on top in this day and age.
On July 27 2008 10:36 Showtime! wrote: Two semi-finals appearances is minor material.
All this bonjwa talk is ridiculous.
I'm going to make a bold prediction: we're never going to see another player dominating all the leagues ever again. It's too difficult to stay on top in this day and age.
I think it would be a bolder predicition to say otherwise.
On July 26 2008 20:57 Kwark wrote: BackHo has gotten into two semifinals in the same season. What's Leta done?
been a far more skilled player than backho
Kal, Ganzi and Stork isn't an easy walk to the semis. Much harder than FlaShs path. BackHo keeps winning games. Care to explain that?
hes protoss? seriously, have you ever actually seen him play or do you just look at results?
Of course I've seen him play. I love watching BackHo play because he's hilarious. But at the end of the day you can say "you're bad" as often as you like but he still won the damn game. Kal, Stork, Much, Bisu, JangBi, Ganzi. What more do you want?
On July 26 2008 20:57 Kwark wrote: BackHo has gotten into two semifinals in the same season. What's Leta done?
Sorry actually forget Shuttle place BackHO on the 10th spot just because he is better then him i do think because shuttle failed in PL and was looking by far the worst then any protoss has vs JD i do think . Leta on the other hand is rapeing in PL at the moment were it counts the most top shit left right and center .
Edit: on the other hand just place someone else who comes on your mind i would argue See has done as much to be here next month
To tell you all the truth BackHO didn't look especially bad vs July wants i saw July rape the shit out of Best , and i'm thinking that if he was playiing in the finals again vs July he would have played better then BEST had or at least survived the cheeses ....
This was the most silliest season ever . We were argueing Best/Flash/Jaedong for number #1 spot in PR next month and then ForGG came out of nowhere and bich slaped all of them with a little help of July that is . ForGG is the only one who is desirveing the #1 PR next month he has stomped all top Shits in the MSL and has one of the best records in PL this season to back up his dominant performance . I think Jaedong should be second because he only lost to ForGG this month and Best was helpless vs July and + Show Spoiler +
got steamrolled by Leta in the playoffs of all places...
Flash hasn't looked good since he lost to luxury , maybe just in the Intel Classic . I think Leta should get a higher place next month because he steamrolls his competition in PL unlike the other big shots that are in here that is all . Yup and keep luxury high in this
On July 27 2008 09:13 triangle wrote: Ugh, ForGG reminds me so much of Mind that it's disgusting.
As for fOrGG and Mind both being totally unexpected, yes, but it seems to me that fOrGG is just getting started, while Mind is kind of unreliable. We'll see how this pans out, but I predict that forgg will accomplish more than Mind
Just when I thought the games were over and clear predictions could be posted WCG pops up. Anyways:
1.Forgg: fine he's the best. Watched the finas on youtube. Still can't comprehend just how badly he raped JD.
2. Jaedong: Going for OSL and MSL titles next season baby. They better start digging graves for the people in his PSL group.
3. Best: 0-3 vs July and a loss to Leta who is on fire. He is still a very strong player. Once the next season starts he will start smashing Ps and Ts again.
4. Flash: Slumping, predictable, yes that is true but he is still a very strong player. You can't write him off for having a bad month. His 3-0 over Backho shows that Flash can still thrash noobs despite his slump.
5. July: Divine PvZ in the OSL along with the golden mouse is worth the 5'th spot imo. If you think he should be higher though, put him in a bo5 against , for example, Flash who is a spot above him. Who do you think will win?
6. Kal: he is solid, he is consistent, he had a better month than Flash, however, he just isn't as good as the players above him right now except maybe July.
7. Luxury: Good player not counting his disgusting PvZ. Got the all important win and got his team into the PL finals.
8. Leta: he is on fire. 8 game win streak with 6 of them this month. Dominated Kal and Best carrying his team to the finals.
9. Lomo: Made ro8 of MSL playing great before being stopped by the best TvT in the world in a close 3-2 series. A pretty good accomplishment in my opinion.
10. Shuttle/Backho. Both had pretty good accomplishments lately, I have no idea who is the stronger player. Maybe Hwasin can stay at 10.
All the Flash dislike in this thread is killing me. The guy is a fantastic player who is *probably* just going through a slight rough patch. While time will tell if he is really falling ala Savior, you're crazy to think he should be anything less than 3rd under Jaedong and ForGG.
Especially when there is a large chance he will take Jaedong down in GSL (although I guess the same could be said both ways)
In a Bo5 vs BeSt, July, Kal there's no doubt who is going to win in my mind.. Flash. Luxury not included I guess (lol.) but honestly I think Lux should be 5th after BeSt
On July 28 2008 17:18 Vasoline73 wrote: All the Flash dislike in this thread is killing me. The guy is a fantastic player who is *probably* just going through a slight rough patch. While time will tell if he is really falling ala Savior, you're crazy to think he should be anything less than 3rd under Jaedong and ForGG.
Especially when there is a large chance he will take Jaedong down in GSL (although I guess the same could be said both ways)
In a Bo5 vs BeSt, July, Kal there's no doubt who is going to win in my mind.. Flash. Luxury not included I guess (lol.) but honestly I think Lux should be 5th after BeSt
Well we can't say enything we actually have to see the Bo5s . ForGG vs Flash was the same ... Flash did 3-0'd BackHO so he is not in that bad of a shape but the final in the Intel Classic is not next Sunday so it will be on August 10 .
On July 28 2008 09:46 Tinithor wrote: If forgg isn't #1 it will be an insult
no not really. Jaedong lost to a teammate Forgg on Terran maps on his weakest matchup. Thats not a huge letdown for jaedong. Jaedong still rapes ZvP (watch his recent matchups with toss players) and his ZvZ is the best.
Just because the #1 loses a few games doesn't mean he automatically becomes #2. All champions lose few games here and there. The fact that those games were very important games to his career did hurt JD, but still, Jaedong has dominated enough the past few months and brought down the end of Bisu era, taken down enough "legends", to keep his spot as #1 regardless of his loss to forgg. Have we seen ForGG's huge dominating streak similar to JD's to place him on the throne rather than JD?
Whats more insulting is that the #3 game between JD and Forgg was on map Tiamat. I don't even know why they would include such an imba map on the 1st three sets. The 2nd match loss was more of Jaedong's huge lurker micro mistake than Forgg's skills.
From looking at it like that, I don't see Forgg impressive enough to stand in the #1 spot.
Just my opinion but I thought Power Rank ranks based on who is currently the strongest? Not about every little loss and updated daily
ForGG put JD to shame in that set and it was not the map that defeated JD but his own stupid choice to go all in speedlings which failed. Also, ForGG has beaten basically EVERYONE on the top 10 and done it with style. He's had the hardest path through the whole MSL and he won anyways. Just because JD used to be dominant (IE: not any more, who has he beaten thats good lately? No one, except maybe a choking Hwasin) does not mean that he still deserves the #1 spot.
From watching the MSL finals i don't believe that JD's play was #1 material, he made bad choices every single game.
This is a monthly powerrank after all and i don't see how you can dispute that ForGG was the best this month.
On July 29 2008 02:25 Tinithor wrote: ForGG put JD to shame in that set and it was not the map that defeated JD but his own stupid choice to go all in speedlings which failed. Also, ForGG has beaten basically EVERYONE on the top 10 and done it with style. He's had the hardest path through the whole MSL and he won anyways. Just because JD used to be dominant (IE: not any more, who has he beaten thats good lately? No one, except maybe a choking Hwasin) does not mean that he still deserves the #1 spot.
From watching the MSL finals i don't believe that JD's play was #1 material, he made bad choices every single game.
This is a monthly powerrank after all and i don't see how you can dispute that ForGG was the best this month.
ForGG beat everyone to top 10?
ForGG's record vs Luxury - 1 win 1 loss, Jaedong won over Luxury vs Best - Did not face him yet vs July - 1 loss, Jaedong tied with July 2-2 vs Lomo - Did not face him yet, Jaedong raped Lomo recently vs JD - Win vs Flash - Win vs Hwasin - Win but Jaedong beat Hwasin also
so much for ForGG beating EVERYONE on top 10 with style
Yes this is a monthly powerrank, Forgg performed the best this month, however, I still see Jaedong as a stronger player even though this month of July, and Power Rank measures which player is stronger overall at that current month, more important than how well they've been performing, am i right?
Its not Jaedong's fault that he didn't beat tough opponents lately because he hasn't had the chance to face them (except forGG) If the lineups are that way, what can the best player possibly do? The tournament is designed that way and out of the player's control
ForGG putting JD to shame is a bit of exaggeration for playing on Terran maps
Anyhow, this is not our dispute since this is not our powerrank, its up to Steve to make the decision
You forgot Kal. If you have not watched ForGG vs Kal, you definitely should - it is awesome.
Think of it this way: in his MSL run, ForGG took on the one of the strongest Protoss players (Kal), the strongest Terran player (Flash, until now), and the strongest Zerg player (Jaedong, obviously). He beat them all, and on the series against Kal could be called 'close' - and TvP is supposed to be ForGG's best match up.
ForGG has demonstrated himself against the toughest of all possible competition in every race, (well, he hasn't played against BeSt, but Kal is close) and he has succeeded.
On July 29 2008 04:07 Tinithor wrote: I don't see how the maps made 1 bit of difference in those games.
Yes, because maps don't matter in the choice of BOs and how easy it is to flank, or not flank, and how many expos you can obtain safely. Nope, not a bit.
On July 29 2008 09:55 Februarys wrote: Oh yes I forgot to mention Kal
ForGG won over Kal but so did Jaedong
Correct me if I am mistaken, but Jaedong has not played Kal in a series since the finals of last season's MSL? Can you really still count that in Jaedong's favor for your list?
On July 28 2008 08:43 TheTyranid wrote: 5. July: Divine PvZ in the OSL along with the golden mouse is worth the 5'th spot imo. If you think he should be higher though, put him in a bo5 against , for example, Flash who is a spot above him. Who do you think will win?
Or we could put him in a bo5 against, for example, BeSt who is two spots above him. Who do you think would win?
On July 28 2008 08:43 TheTyranid wrote: 5. July: Divine PvZ in the OSL along with the golden mouse is worth the 5'th spot imo. If you think he should be higher though, put him in a bo5 against , for example, Flash who is a spot above him. Who do you think will win?
Or we could put him in a bo5 against, for example, BeSt who is two spots above him. Who do you think would win?
On July 28 2008 08:43 TheTyranid wrote: 5. July: Divine PvZ in the OSL along with the golden mouse is worth the 5'th spot imo. If you think he should be higher though, put him in a bo5 against , for example, Flash who is a spot above him. Who do you think will win?
Or we could put him in a bo5 against, for example, BeSt who is two spots above him. Who do you think would win?
On July 30 2008 06:42 Kwark wrote: 5. July: Divine PvZ in the OSL along with the golden mouse is worth the 5'th spot imo. If you think he should be higher though, put him in a bo5 against , for example, Flash who is a spot above him. Who do you think will win?
On July 28 2008 08:43 TheTyranid wrote: 5. July: Divine PvZ in the OSL along with the golden mouse is worth the 5'th spot imo. If you think he should be higher though, put him in a bo5 against , for example, Flash who is a spot above him. Who do you think will win?
Or we could put him in a bo5 against, for example, BeSt who is two spots above him. Who do you think would win?
So one strong match up> Two strong match ups?
No.
July and best both have 2 strong matchups. July is good at ZvZ and ZvP while Best is good at PvT and PvP. When they met each other July Creamed Best. I say July should have the Higher rank.
As much as I love him, I have to agree. BackHo is good at winning games. You can pick apart his play as much as you like, you can fault his decision and call him bad while extolling the virtues of other players if you want. But when it comes down to it, BackHo wins where they cannot.
ahh its almost august something tells me sea may not be number one next month , hurry up and start proleague so we can sea expose his sexy tl interior cause if that dont get you number one on power ranking nothing will, or winning starleagues yeah that might do it to but w/e
he's a shitty fucking player, if you want to pretend he had "GREAT RESULTS THIS MONTH" maybe you should pay attention to what fucking happens in leagues. backho lost more games than he won this month
don't try to tell me his win over nada in wcg makes him power rank material because i'll laugh in your face
On July 31 2008 17:50 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: backho is not going on the power rank
he's a shitty fucking player, if you want to pretend he had "GREAT RESULTS THIS MONTH" maybe you should pay attention to what fucking happens in leagues. backho lost more games than he won this month
don't try to tell me his win over nada in wcg makes him power rank material because i'll laugh in your face
Well who does deserve to be here ? Besides JD , FLash Best ForGG and July and maybe Luxury ...
On July 31 2008 17:50 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: backho is not going on the power rank
he's a shitty fucking player, if you want to pretend he had "GREAT RESULTS THIS MONTH" maybe you should pay attention to what fucking happens in leagues. backho lost more games than he won this month
don't try to tell me his win over nada in wcg makes him power rank material because i'll laugh in your face
Well who does deserve to be here ? Besides JD , FLash Best ForGG and July and maybe Luxury ...
you'll find out. sure as fuck ain't backho though. if i couldn't name ten players better than him it'd be a sad, sad fucking day in starcraft
Midas was just 2-0'd by ~50% minor leaguer koala_V_ while our favourite BackHo made it through the MBC offline prelims and will likely be in both leagues coming up now.
Although offline prelims is a bitch I guess, I can't believe JD didn't make ODT or whatever it is they get to after that group stage.
To be honest, I would be more agreeing to Backho getting on the power rank if- and this is a big if- he shows competence in pvz, and well, in general decision making. Oh and he gets rid of the bowl cut. He wins games, but he does it in a shitty manner. He makes mistakes, the other player just makes more. He shows no momentum or general understanding of the game he is in, he just builds troops and what happens happens.
On August 01 2008 01:22 Dazed_Spy wrote: To be honest, I would be more agreeing to Backho getting on the power rank if- and this is a big if- he shows competence in pvz, and well, in general decision making. Oh and he gets rid of the bowl cut. He wins games, but he does it in a shitty manner. He makes mistakes, the other player just makes more. He shows no momentum or general understanding of the game he is in, he just builds troops and what happens happens.
Well he just beat Gorush to get in to survivor . I'm curious how will the next PR look
On July 31 2008 17:50 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: backho is not going on the power rank
he's a shitty fucking player, if you want to pretend he had "GREAT RESULTS THIS MONTH" maybe you should pay attention to what fucking happens in leagues. backho lost more games than he won this month
don't try to tell me his win over nada in wcg makes him power rank material because i'll laugh in your face
Well who does deserve to be here ? Besides JD , FLash Best ForGG and July and maybe Luxury ...
you'll find out. sure as fuck ain't backho though. if i couldn't name ten players better than him it'd be a sad, sad fucking day in starcraft
Come to think of it fuck BackHO . Berserker in his last PL games and in the offlines is looking deadly and I would love to see him back in the PR as my only favourite terran from Savior times
On August 01 2008 01:22 Dazed_Spy wrote: To be honest, I would be more agreeing to Backho getting on the power rank if- and this is a big if- he shows competence in pvz, and well, in general decision making. Oh and he gets rid of the bowl cut. He wins games, but he does it in a shitty manner. He makes mistakes, the other player just makes more. He shows no momentum or general understanding of the game he is in, he just builds troops and what happens happens.
Well he just beat Gorush to get in to survivor . I'm curious how will the next PR look
On August 01 2008 01:22 Dazed_Spy wrote: To be honest, I would be more agreeing to Backho getting on the power rank if- and this is a big if- he shows competence in pvz, and well, in general decision making. Oh and he gets rid of the bowl cut. He wins games, but he does it in a shitty manner. He makes mistakes, the other player just makes more. He shows no momentum or general understanding of the game he is in, he just builds troops and what happens happens.
Well he just beat Gorush to get in to survivor . I'm curious how will the next PR look
GoRush is god awful right now, the bigger story is that someone who can make OSL dropped a game to him at all
On July 29 2008 04:07 Tinithor wrote: I don't see how the maps made 1 bit of difference in those games.
Really? It wasn't JD's bad play, it was his scrappy builds being dictated by the maps. Othello was the most fair map and he got simply outplayed on it, but the other two are T>Z and T>>>Z. I had faith in Jaedong's solid play being able to overcome it, but I guess it couldn't...
On July 31 2008 17:50 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: backho is not going on the power rank
he's a shitty fucking player, if you want to pretend he had "GREAT RESULTS THIS MONTH" maybe you should pay attention to what fucking happens in leagues. backho lost more games than he won this month
don't try to tell me his win over nada in wcg makes him power rank material because i'll laugh in your face
A win over NaDa doesn't alone make him PR material. None of his individual wins do. Even vs high profile opponents such as Kal or Stork. It's when you take all his wins and put them in a big row that you realise that he just keeps on winning. You can excuse one or two games but BackHo is past that now. He's proving himself to be a regular starleague player. No other contender for 10 is getting the results he is. BackHos play looks bad because his strengths, multitasking and macro, aren't immediately obvious to you. It's far easier to pick apart his decision making because when he slips up there you see lots of blue goo and it's obvious. Whereas players who on the face of it look much stronger because they don't suicide their armies get consistantly rolled, simply because they're outmacroed, outplayed and owned. You can watch a straight up PvZ where the P doesn't make any huge mistakes but just gets slowly behind and eventually loses. He looks like a decent enough player but he doesn't win games. BackHo's mistakes are obvious but his results are quite frankly undeniable. He is a far stronger player than all the no-names who look pretty but don't actually win games. BackHo lost more games because he got into two bo5s with FlaSh and July. Hold that against him if you will but given nobody is arguing that we should put BackHo above either of them it's a complete straw man and you know it. For you to argue that those 6 losses should stop him being #10 you have to argue that your candidate for #10 wouldn't have lost them. Doing anything else is simply punishing him for making two semifinals. He played higher level opponents than most get to in the average month and that is completely skewing the statistics. Putting some noob with a positive win rato above him simply because the noob wasn't good enough to earn bo5s with July and FlaSh is absurd.
Quite frankly Steve, you're wrong. He looks shitty but he wins the games. I'll take that over a player who looks good and loses games. When it comes to winning games, which really should be what the PR is about, BackHo qualifies. His semi final losses vs players who are higher on the PR than I'd place him shouldn't be held against him.
On July 31 2008 17:50 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: backho is not going on the power rank
he's a shitty fucking player, if you want to pretend he had "GREAT RESULTS THIS MONTH" maybe you should pay attention to what fucking happens in leagues. backho lost more games than he won this month
don't try to tell me his win over nada in wcg makes him power rank material because i'll laugh in your face
A win over NaDa doesn't alone make him PR material. None of his individual wins do. Even vs high profile opponents such as Kal or Stork. It's when you take all his wins and put them in a big row that you realise that he just keeps on winning.
+ 08-07-30 WCG2008 Korea (Twilight) Othello (T)NaDa Win + 08-07-30 WCG2008 Korea (Space Platform) Andromeda (T)NaDa Win + 08-07-04 EVER2008 OSL (Twilight) Othello (Z)July Loss + 08-07-04 EVER2008 OSL (Desert) Troy (Z)July Win + 08-07-04 EVER2008 OSL (Space Platform) Andromeda (Z)July Loss + 08-07-04 EVER2008 OSL (Jungle World) Hwarangdo (Z)July Loss + 08-07-01 Shinhan08 Proleague (Space Platform) Andromeda (Z)Haran Loss
The question is wo is going to take the #10 spot if not Backho? He has been getting better results than any player outside top 10 with his recent 2-0 over Nada. Midas? Hwasin? These are the only players I can think of. Hwasin did just lose in WCG but he is of course a better player than Backho.
I guess Leta will be pretty high for his PL performance, but really there wasnt much of a material to judge players skills this month - I can only say ForGG should be #1 and JD shouldnt be higher than #4
On August 02 2008 04:49 disciple wrote: I guess Leta will be pretty high for his PL performance, but really there wasnt much of a material to judge players skills this month - I can only say ForGG should be #1 and JD shouldnt be higher than #4
You, my friend, are smoking something fierce. Jaedong is a guaranteed second. Possibly even first (although that won't happen). Who the hell are the other 2 players better than Jaedong? Please enlighten me.
On July 31 2008 17:50 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: backho is not going on the power rank
he's a shitty fucking player, if you want to pretend he had "GREAT RESULTS THIS MONTH" maybe you should pay attention to what fucking happens in leagues. backho lost more games than he won this month
don't try to tell me his win over nada in wcg makes him power rank material because i'll laugh in your face
A win over NaDa doesn't alone make him PR material. None of his individual wins do. Even vs high profile opponents such as Kal or Stork. It's when you take all his wins and put them in a big row that you realise that he just keeps on winning.
+ 08-07-30 WCG2008 Korea (Twilight) Othello (T)NaDa Win + 08-07-30 WCG2008 Korea (Space Platform) Andromeda (T)NaDa Win + 08-07-04 EVER2008 OSL (Twilight) Othello (Z)July Loss + 08-07-04 EVER2008 OSL (Desert) Troy (Z)July Win + 08-07-04 EVER2008 OSL (Space Platform) Andromeda (Z)July Loss + 08-07-04 EVER2008 OSL (Jungle World) Hwarangdo (Z)July Loss + 08-07-01 Shinhan08 Proleague (Space Platform) Andromeda (Z)Haran Loss
This is parallel to the fact that backho sucks terrible ass.
And now add the GSL games. Removing one of the tournaments he got to the semifinals of simply because kespa politics refused it recognition is pointless. The games he played were Starcraft and therefore they count. You can argue that the less important the competition the less they practice so it counts for less but given the GSL prize pool I don't think that's relevant here. Saying a player sucks ass and using a list of games missing the league they came joint 3rd as proof isn't a great argument.
On August 02 2008 04:59 Tinithor wrote: I'd say 1: ForGG 2: Flash 3: Jaedong 4: Luxury 5: July 6: Best 7: Kal 8: Hwasin 9: Leta 10: Backho
Really tough decision, since not much has happened this month but i think this is what i would put.
Why Flash over Jaedong? Other than his GOM series against BackHo, has Flash really looked that good? Or, other than his loss to fOrGG, has Jaedong really looked that "bad?" Or to put it in another perspective- other than the MSL, Jaedong won almost every game he played in July (only dropped one game to Lomo in GOM). Even with that 3-0 loss, Jaedong is 11-4 in July. Flash is 10-8; Jaedong has more wins with fewer games. And really.. I don't think 3-0ing BACKHO is enough to push Flash over Jaedong (who 3-0'd Shuttle and Much, incidentally).
Lux over July...? Lux played like 2 games in July- loss to HyuK in PL regular season, win over Bisu in ace match for playoffs. Meanwhile July is on a 6 game winstreak (not counting his 2v2), which would have been a 9 game streak if BackHo didn't have the nerve to steal a game during their OSL series. Yeah, he's pretty much only played against Protoss, but Luxury has only won one game (against a recovering-from-slump Bisu).
Speaking of BeSt, what has he done this month? One win over Chalrenge in PL regular season, 3 losses to July in OSL, helped his team get upset by OGN by losing to Leta in PL playoffs... and that's about it. He certainly didn't look too hot against July. Not saying many people have much more to show for it, though... but yeah. The only real argument I could see for BeSt being up there is because there aren't that many other people to put up there.
Leta has won every game he's played in July. He's taken down Kal (twice), fOrGG, Bisu, BeSt, and HiyA during that run. I'd say that deserves some notice over people with nothing but PL commitments underperformed in the clutch (Hwasin, BeSt, Kal)... and well, BackHo certainly didn't win all of his games nor did he look particularly good in any of his games. His opponents just happened to look worse in his wins. He's not terrible, by any means... he's just a sniper who's had some luck against big names who aren't playing well.
Not terribly much to go off of in July for a lot of players... but there's enough to have something better than "well these guys were pretty good in June and they didn't play a lot in July so I guess they should stay here?"
I put flash in front of JD cause Flash is still seeded for 2 leagues. Luxury i just think has been playing better than July, and how low do you want best to be?
On August 02 2008 18:18 Tinithor wrote: I put flash in front of JD cause Flash is still seeded for 2 leagues. Luxury i just think has been playing better than July, and how low do you want best to be?
Nah Luxury should be below July even if he is not playing that bad . But Best didn't play too well in the PL offlines even if it was a terram favourite map .
I think it should be like this :
1. ForGG
2/3 . Jaedong/Flash we should wait to see their mach in the IntelClassic but that is on 10 th of August ... So looking at it they did not live up to the expectations , but Jaedong actually lost to han i didn't actually see the game O.o WTF . I'm a massive JD fan but i have to give the second spot to Flash just for this month because he is seeded to both leagues .
4/5 . July/Best. July is not playing bad he did get the OSL Golden mouse stomping Best . Best lost 3 - 0 to July , but he also lost to Leta and i didn't see him show some mark of brilliance even an a T favoured map , so i'm giveing this to July because July is playing good in 2v2 despite the team losing .
6 . I think Luxury should be here just because there is not a more worthy player at the moment . After loseing to Best he was the Hero in the Ace mach vs SKT beating Bisu .
7. From here on i don't think enyone is desivering this spot because i don't find anyone to be doing well . Kal takes this spot just because he is now in the ODT or whatever and is seeded in MSL don't know if it is the survivor or the actual MSL .
8 . I think Leta deserves this spot because he was an a good winning streak before he lost to JD and has winning in PL now were it counts for his team .
9/10 . Some totaly biased players who aren't bad and have managed to qualify for the upcoming ODT / surviver in both MSL and OSL . I vote one of them to be Iris
On July 31 2008 17:50 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: backho is not going on the power rank
he's a shitty fucking player, if you want to pretend he had "GREAT RESULTS THIS MONTH" maybe you should pay attention to what fucking happens in leagues. backho lost more games than he won this month
don't try to tell me his win over nada in wcg makes him power rank material because i'll laugh in your face
A win over NaDa doesn't alone make him PR material. None of his individual wins do. Even vs high profile opponents such as Kal or Stork. It's when you take all his wins and put them in a big row that you realise that he just keeps on winning. You can excuse one or two games but BackHo is past that now. He's proving himself to be a regular starleague player. No other contender for 10 is getting the results he is. BackHos play looks bad because his strengths, multitasking and macro, aren't immediately obvious to you. It's far easier to pick apart his decision making because when he slips up there you see lots of blue goo and it's obvious. Whereas players who on the face of it look much stronger because they don't suicide their armies get consistantly rolled, simply because they're outmacroed, outplayed and owned. You can watch a straight up PvZ where the P doesn't make any huge mistakes but just gets slowly behind and eventually loses. He looks like a decent enough player but he doesn't win games. BackHo's mistakes are obvious but his results are quite frankly undeniable. He is a far stronger player than all the no-names who look pretty but don't actually win games. BackHo lost more games because he got into two bo5s with FlaSh and July. Hold that against him if you will but given nobody is arguing that we should put BackHo above either of them it's a complete straw man and you know it. For you to argue that those 6 losses should stop him being #10 you have to argue that your candidate for #10 wouldn't have lost them. Doing anything else is simply punishing him for making two semifinals. He played higher level opponents than most get to in the average month and that is completely skewing the statistics. Putting some noob with a positive win rato above him simply because the noob wasn't good enough to earn bo5s with July and FlaSh is absurd.
Quite frankly Steve, you're wrong. He looks shitty but he wins the games. I'll take that over a player who looks good and loses games. When it comes to winning games, which really should be what the PR is about, BackHo qualifies. His semi final losses vs players who are higher on the PR than I'd place him shouldn't be held against him.
you're out of your mind if you think theres some magical aspect to starcraft that you know of and i don't
YOU are wrong, and people have a hell of a lot more reason to take my word than yours
On July 31 2008 17:50 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: backho is not going on the power rank
he's a shitty fucking player, if you want to pretend he had "GREAT RESULTS THIS MONTH" maybe you should pay attention to what fucking happens in leagues. backho lost more games than he won this month
don't try to tell me his win over nada in wcg makes him power rank material because i'll laugh in your face
A win over NaDa doesn't alone make him PR material. None of his individual wins do. Even vs high profile opponents such as Kal or Stork. It's when you take all his wins and put them in a big row that you realise that he just keeps on winning. You can excuse one or two games but BackHo is past that now. He's proving himself to be a regular starleague player. No other contender for 10 is getting the results he is. BackHos play looks bad because his strengths, multitasking and macro, aren't immediately obvious to you. It's far easier to pick apart his decision making because when he slips up there you see lots of blue goo and it's obvious. Whereas players who on the face of it look much stronger because they don't suicide their armies get consistantly rolled, simply because they're outmacroed, outplayed and owned. You can watch a straight up PvZ where the P doesn't make any huge mistakes but just gets slowly behind and eventually loses. He looks like a decent enough player but he doesn't win games. BackHo's mistakes are obvious but his results are quite frankly undeniable. He is a far stronger player than all the no-names who look pretty but don't actually win games. BackHo lost more games because he got into two bo5s with FlaSh and July. Hold that against him if you will but given nobody is arguing that we should put BackHo above either of them it's a complete straw man and you know it. For you to argue that those 6 losses should stop him being #10 you have to argue that your candidate for #10 wouldn't have lost them. Doing anything else is simply punishing him for making two semifinals. He played higher level opponents than most get to in the average month and that is completely skewing the statistics. Putting some noob with a positive win rato above him simply because the noob wasn't good enough to earn bo5s with July and FlaSh is absurd.
Quite frankly Steve, you're wrong. He looks shitty but he wins the games. I'll take that over a player who looks good and loses games. When it comes to winning games, which really should be what the PR is about, BackHo qualifies. His semi final losses vs players who are higher on the PR than I'd place him shouldn't be held against him.
you're out of your mind if you think theres some magical aspect to starcraft that you know of and i don't
YOU are wrong, and people have a hell of a lot more reason to take my word than yours
I'm aware you make the PR and you're the expert here and maybe I'll understand why you put whoever you make #10 when you do. But I just don't see who has outperformed BackHo recently who isn't above him. This isn't an argument, it's a debate and it'll become much easier when I know who you advocate over him. I didn't mean some magical aspect of Starcraft. I meant that BackHos obviously bad play beats a lot of players obviously good play simply because his strengths are in the mechanics, rather than the strategy. It's the oov highlight video problem. You can't actually make an oov highlight because you can't show macro and timing in a series of 20 second clips. I'm not counting BackHos losses to people above him in PR. Maybe I'm wrong to disregard these but when my candidate for #10 loses to my candidate for #4 PR I don't hold it against him. I'd hold it against him if I wanted him to be #1. But #10 < #4 seems pretty reasonable to me. Equally he shouldn't be penalised for the fact that he lost two bo5s against very high level opponents which completely skewed his wins to losses ratio. Whoever you put as #10 would lose 6 games to July/FlaSh if they could earn the right to play semifinals vs those. That's why July and FlaSh are higher than #10 in the PR. BackHo was good enough to earn bo5s vs very good players. Unless you wish to argue that whoever you put as #10 with their better win ratio wouldn't lose those same 6 games, in which case they ought to be a lot higher than #10, then I don't see why they should be held against him.
1. ForGG (no explanation needed) 2. JaeDong (this is a PR of this month, and JD's record is much better than Flash's) 3. JulyZerg (he won the OSL, comon) 4. Flash (he's seeded into both leagues, but he kinda sucked this month apart from the Gom league) 5. Luxury (not too bad this month) 6. BeSt (tough loss to Leta) 7. Kal 8. Leta (holy shit...) 9. Midas 10. IriS (he did really well in offlines, compared to players like BeSt and JD and sAviOr)
On July 31 2008 17:50 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: backho is not going on the power rank
he's a shitty fucking player, if you want to pretend he had "GREAT RESULTS THIS MONTH" maybe you should pay attention to what fucking happens in leagues. backho lost more games than he won this month
don't try to tell me his win over nada in wcg makes him power rank material because i'll laugh in your face
A win over NaDa doesn't alone make him PR material. None of his individual wins do. Even vs high profile opponents such as Kal or Stork. It's when you take all his wins and put them in a big row that you realise that he just keeps on winning.
+ 08-07-30 WCG2008 Korea (Twilight) Othello (T)NaDa Win + 08-07-30 WCG2008 Korea (Space Platform) Andromeda (T)NaDa Win + 08-07-04 EVER2008 OSL (Twilight) Othello (Z)July Loss + 08-07-04 EVER2008 OSL (Desert) Troy (Z)July Win + 08-07-04 EVER2008 OSL (Space Platform) Andromeda (Z)July Loss + 08-07-04 EVER2008 OSL (Jungle World) Hwarangdo (Z)July Loss + 08-07-01 Shinhan08 Proleague (Space Platform) Andromeda (Z)Haran Loss
This is parallel to the fact that backho sucks terrible ass.
And now add the GSL games. Removing one of the tournaments he got to the semifinals of simply because kespa politics refused it recognition is pointless. The games he played were Starcraft and therefore they count. You can argue that the less important the competition the less they practice so it counts for less but given the GSL prize pool I don't think that's relevant here. Saying a player sucks ass and using a list of games missing the league they came joint 3rd as proof isn't a great argument.
Ok, cool. I got first in the SexyTime league and the SuperBestFriends league, so I'm #2 Britain (behind Midian). I don't care if you've never heard of them, they were StarCraft and therefore they count.
You have to draw the line somewhere, and that line is kespa.
On August 03 2008 00:42 Chill wrote: Ok, cool. I got first in the SexyTime league and the SuperBestFriends league, so I'm #2 Britain (behind Midian). I don't care if you've never heard of them, they were StarCraft and therefore they count.
You have to draw the line somewhere, and that line is kespa.
There's nothing stating that that line must be kespa. It would be more reasonable to draw it between tournaments where many progamers are willing to participate competitively and tournaments that's only for marketing/fun. As in between GSL and WWI.
On August 03 2008 00:42 Chill wrote: Ok, cool. I got first in the SexyTime league and the SuperBestFriends league, so I'm #2 Britain (behind Midian). I don't care if you've never heard of them, they were StarCraft and therefore they count.
You have to draw the line somewhere, and that line is kespa.
There's nothing stating that that line must be kespa. It would be more reasonable to draw it between tournaments where many progamers are willing to participate competitively and tournaments that's only for marketing/fun. As in between GSL and WWI.
Who distinguishes the different? Now we have to analyze players' attitudes going into events? Many of them are in WCG for money and not prestige, where does that fit?
I'm just point out how Kwark's "it's StarCraft so it counts" criteria is ridiculous.
I mean its sort of understood that powerrank values OSL gold more than MSL gold, so it seems weird to suddenly obsess over defnite lines and distinctions
If you want to value it less because teams put less focus on it then fine. But to say its the equivalent of some random league just because its not kespa sanctioned is ridiculous.
On August 03 2008 00:42 Chill wrote: Ok, cool. I got first in the SexyTime league and the SuperBestFriends league, so I'm #2 Britain (behind Midian). I don't care if you've never heard of them, they were StarCraft and therefore they count.
You have to draw the line somewhere, and that line is kespa.
There's nothing stating that that line must be kespa. It would be more reasonable to draw it between tournaments where many progamers are willing to participate competitively and tournaments that's only for marketing/fun. As in between GSL and WWI.
Who distinguishes the different? Now we have to analyze players' attitudes going into events? Many of them are in WCG for money and not prestige, where does that fit?
I'm just point out how Kwark's "it's StarCraft so it counts" criteria is ridiculous.
Fuck Kespa. The GSL is a great tournament. The line shoul be drawn at Kespa sanctioned tourneys, GSL, and offline prelims (for cases of top players not qualifying for leagues; example- Jaedong not making ODT.)
On August 02 2008 18:18 Tinithor wrote: I put flash in front of JD cause Flash is still seeded for 2 leagues. Luxury i just think has been playing better than July, and how low do you want best to be?
Those seeds weren't because of his performance this month. This month, I would think Jaedong>Flash.
On August 03 2008 00:42 Chill wrote: Ok, cool. I got first in the SexyTime league and the SuperBestFriends league, so I'm #2 Britain (behind Midian). I don't care if you've never heard of them, they were StarCraft and therefore they count.
You have to draw the line somewhere, and that line is kespa.
There's nothing stating that that line must be kespa. It would be more reasonable to draw it between tournaments where many progamers are willing to participate competitively and tournaments that's only for marketing/fun. As in between GSL and WWI.
Who distinguishes the different? Now we have to analyze players' attitudes going into events? Many of them are in WCG for money and not prestige, where does that fit?
I'm just point out how Kwark's "it's StarCraft so it counts" criteria is ridiculous.
How about "it's StarCraft so it's relevant" and "there's money on the line so they're trying"? I believe I actually said that the money made the games much more legitimate in my first post, something you completely ignored when you parodied my post.
On August 03 2008 00:42 Chill wrote: Ok, cool. I got first in the SexyTime league and the SuperBestFriends league, so I'm #2 Britain (behind Midian). I don't care if you've never heard of them, they were StarCraft and therefore they count.
You have to draw the line somewhere, and that line is kespa.
There's nothing stating that that line must be kespa. It would be more reasonable to draw it between tournaments where many progamers are willing to participate competitively and tournaments that's only for marketing/fun. As in between GSL and WWI.
Who distinguishes the different? Now we have to analyze players' attitudes going into events? Many of them are in WCG for money and not prestige, where does that fit?
I'm just point out how Kwark's "it's StarCraft so it counts" criteria is ridiculous.
How about "it's StarCraft so it's relevant" and "there's money on the line so they're trying"? I believe I actually said that the money made the games much more legitimate in my first post, something you completely ignored when you parodied my post.
So if there's money on the line it's legitimate? Skins is legitimate now? Make up some criteria and defend it, you're just including whatever you feel like based on feel.
if flash beat jaedong 7 times in a row in a skins match you're telling me that wouldnt change how you evaluate their strength at the moment?
Obviously if someone like devil wins over bestgod thats not going to get either in the powerrank. But if they played in the ro16 of the osl it wouldnt help them either.
Its ok to value it less. But it is still 2 progamers playing each other in a league or tournament for money.
On August 03 2008 00:42 Chill wrote: Ok, cool. I got first in the SexyTime league and the SuperBestFriends league, so I'm #2 Britain (behind Midian). I don't care if you've never heard of them, they were StarCraft and therefore they count.
You have to draw the line somewhere, and that line is kespa.
There's nothing stating that that line must be kespa. It would be more reasonable to draw it between tournaments where many progamers are willing to participate competitively and tournaments that's only for marketing/fun. As in between GSL and WWI.
Who distinguishes the different? Now we have to analyze players' attitudes going into events? Many of them are in WCG for money and not prestige, where does that fit?
I'm just point out how Kwark's "it's StarCraft so it counts" criteria is ridiculous.
Why cant we draw the line on high prize money? It seems reasonable, more money, more players, more attention put into it, higher quality games. I know there are some prestigious leagues that aren't giving out that big of a prize pool, but I am purely arguing that if the league is not kespa sanctioned...but theres a shit ton of money on the table, its a fair basis to judge by.
You can't really count GSL because, unfortunately, not all pro's were given a chance to participate.
This means we run into problems:
- if you reward players for winning games in the GSI, you'd also have to penalize the ones who loses the games. Unfortunately, one would then argue that the losers simply wasn't trying his very best since he isn't as motivated for the GSL as he would be for OSL/MSL (who knows...)
- OR you could count only select games in the GSL where it is obvious both players played well and the win was well deserved. However, this is like giving bonus points to players who got a chance to participate in the GSL, which is unfair to those whose teams forbade them from entering.
On August 03 2008 00:42 Chill wrote: Ok, cool. I got first in the SexyTime league and the SuperBestFriends league, so I'm #2 Britain (behind Midian). I don't care if you've never heard of them, they were StarCraft and therefore they count.
You have to draw the line somewhere, and that line is kespa.
There's nothing stating that that line must be kespa. It would be more reasonable to draw it between tournaments where many progamers are willing to participate competitively and tournaments that's only for marketing/fun. As in between GSL and WWI.
Who distinguishes the different? Now we have to analyze players' attitudes going into events? Many of them are in WCG for money and not prestige, where does that fit?
I'm just point out how Kwark's "it's StarCraft so it counts" criteria is ridiculous.
How about "it's StarCraft so it's relevant" and "there's money on the line so they're trying"? I believe I actually said that the money made the games much more legitimate in my first post, something you completely ignored when you parodied my post.
So if there's money on the line it's legitimate? Skins is legitimate now? Make up some criteria and defend it, you're just including whatever you feel like based on feel.
omg go.go for #1 he 7-0'd 910, best player EVAR!!!!!1!one!!!!!111
On August 03 2008 09:14 fusionsdf wrote: if flash beat jaedong 7 times in a row in a skins match you're telling me that wouldnt change how you evaluate their strength at the moment?
Yeah fusion makes a good point here. Obviously if Flash or Jaedong 7-0'ed the other one everybody on TL.net would want the winner to be higher on the power rank than the other.
So in a sense, yes, Skins definitely does count for something
On August 03 2008 00:42 Chill wrote: Ok, cool. I got first in the SexyTime league and the SuperBestFriends league, so I'm #2 Britain (behind Midian). I don't care if you've never heard of them, they were StarCraft and therefore they count.
You have to draw the line somewhere, and that line is kespa.
There's nothing stating that that line must be kespa. It would be more reasonable to draw it between tournaments where many progamers are willing to participate competitively and tournaments that's only for marketing/fun. As in between GSL and WWI.
Who distinguishes the different? Now we have to analyze players' attitudes going into events? Many of them are in WCG for money and not prestige, where does that fit?
I'm just point out how Kwark's "it's StarCraft so it counts" criteria is ridiculous.
How about "it's StarCraft so it's relevant" and "there's money on the line so they're trying"? I believe I actually said that the money made the games much more legitimate in my first post, something you completely ignored when you parodied my post.
So if there's money on the line it's legitimate? Skins is legitimate now? Make up some criteria and defend it, you're just including whatever you feel like based on feel.
omg go.go for #1 he 7-0'd 910, best player EVAR!!!!!1!one!!!!!111
neither player is noteworthy
a mediocre player beating another mediocre player doesnt mean anything.
but if flash 7-0'd jaedong are you honestly telling me that wouldnt influence your opinion of who is stronger at the moment?
On August 03 2008 09:14 fusionsdf wrote: if flash beat jaedong 7 times in a row in a skins match you're telling me that wouldnt change how you evaluate their strength at the moment?
Yeah fusion makes a good point here. Obviously if Flash or Jaedong 7-0'ed the other one everybody on TL.net would want the winner to be higher on the power rank than the other.
So in a sense, yes, Skins definitely does count for something
If Jaedongs took MSL OSL and GOM , but Flash beat him 7 - 0 in a skin mach , who will be #1 ?
On August 03 2008 09:14 fusionsdf wrote: if flash beat jaedong 7 times in a row in a skins match you're telling me that wouldnt change how you evaluate their strength at the moment?
Yeah fusion makes a good point here. Obviously if Flash or Jaedong 7-0'ed the other one everybody on TL.net would want the winner to be higher on the power rank than the other.
So in a sense, yes, Skins definitely does count for something
If Jaedongs took MSL OSL and GOM , but Flash beat him 7 - 0 in a skin mach , who will be #1 ?
Jaedong of course ...
obviously
Im not saying the Skins are worth more than MSL OSL and GSL combined, so your example is ridiculous.
On August 03 2008 16:13 Juicyfruit wrote: You can't really count GSL because, unfortunately, not all pro's were given a chance to participate.
This means we run into problems:
- if you reward players for winning games in the GSI, you'd also have to penalize the ones who loses the games. Unfortunately, one would then argue that the losers simply wasn't trying his very best since he isn't as motivated for the GSL as he would be for OSL/MSL (who knows...)
- OR you could count only select games in the GSL where it is obvious both players played well and the win was well deserved. However, this is like giving bonus points to players who got a chance to participate in the GSL, which is unfair to those whose teams forbade them from entering.
The GSI didn't have everyone in it, but it was still counted. To a lesser degree, as should the GSL, I'm not saying any radical changes should be made on the PR in leu of someones GSL run. But if there is a slot open for number 10, it should be considered. Though I don't think backho should get in personally, I'm just saying.
On July 31 2008 17:50 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: backho is not going on the power rank
he's a shitty fucking player, if you want to pretend he had "GREAT RESULTS THIS MONTH" maybe you should pay attention to what fucking happens in leagues. backho lost more games than he won this month
don't try to tell me his win over nada in wcg makes him power rank material because i'll laugh in your face
A win over NaDa doesn't alone make him PR material. None of his individual wins do. Even vs high profile opponents such as Kal or Stork. It's when you take all his wins and put them in a big row that you realise that he just keeps on winning.
+ 08-07-30 WCG2008 Korea (Twilight) Othello (T)NaDa Win + 08-07-30 WCG2008 Korea (Space Platform) Andromeda (T)NaDa Win + 08-07-04 EVER2008 OSL (Twilight) Othello (Z)July Loss + 08-07-04 EVER2008 OSL (Desert) Troy (Z)July Win + 08-07-04 EVER2008 OSL (Space Platform) Andromeda (Z)July Loss + 08-07-04 EVER2008 OSL (Jungle World) Hwarangdo (Z)July Loss + 08-07-01 Shinhan08 Proleague (Space Platform) Andromeda (Z)Haran Loss
This is parallel to the fact that backho sucks terrible ass.
And now add the GSL games. Removing one of the tournaments he got to the semifinals of simply because kespa politics refused it recognition is pointless. The games he played were Starcraft and therefore they count. You can argue that the less important the competition the less they practice so it counts for less but given the GSL prize pool I don't think that's relevant here. Saying a player sucks ass and using a list of games missing the league they came joint 3rd as proof isn't a great argument.
Ok, cool. I got first in the SexyTime league and the SuperBestFriends league, so I'm #2 Britain (behind Midian). I don't care if you've never heard of them, they were StarCraft and therefore they count.
You have to draw the line somewhere, and that line is kespa.
It's not an objective ranking system like ELO, so there doesn't need to be a distinct line. It's just Steve's opinion of the current top ten players in the world. It's probably based more on how the players are actually playing (BackHo sucks even when he wins) than on win/loss stats, so why would he leave out GSL?
I think most people criticizing the Power Rank fail to fully understand the nature of it. It's not official, it's not the ELO system, there's no point values involved, it's just a general representation of who is badass in the Starcraft world right now. I'm sure 90% of us would swap a rank here or there, or throw someone else into the top 10 for whatever reasoning, but that's not important. We've got the KESPA ranking for those types of official rankings, so it's great to have something like the Power Rank to more loosely judge players who are currently kicking ass in general, and not on a strict point-based system which doesn't take how the games were won into consideration, as well as the manner of the players, and many other factors.
Speaking of which, I'm impatiently waiting for the new Power Rank !
A friendly suggestion: Both Djetter and Fakesteve have made good/funny ranks, they are both good writers and understands starcraft well enough.
I would love to see someone else try and do the rank now though. Personally I think the power rank has been taken WAY to seriously by both the readers and the author lately and we all pretty much know Steves style by now (even though I'm impressed he manages to make funny descriptions to his choices every single month). Also steve has been late with the rank for like 3-4 months in a row now?
So what I'm suggesting is that a good writer makes the list and doesn't put in 40 hours a week in order to make it more legitimate. I mean 1 person is making this list and tries to be 100 % accurate every month. What's fun about that? If it's supposed to be accurate then I don't need to tell you that telling 1 single person to do it is probably the worst way of doing it.
Ok this maybe came across as rant and I admit I am extremely tired of the list and the atmosphere around it right now but I once loved the lists by steve when the descriptions were hilarous and full of passion instead of defence speeches to upcoming flamewars in the comments. Also it was nice knowing the list was gonna be there the 1st of every month
Poll: Will the Flash vs Jaedong rivalry live up to the hype in the long run? (Vote): Yes (Vote): No
I like Flash and Jaedong the most for there respective races right now. I know they both lost to fOrGG in the MSL,(which did leave a bitter taste in my mouth, hoping for the Flash and Jaedong rivalry to grow) but they are still the most exciting players out there for me right now. I guess I'm just saying I hope for another Boxer vs Yellow type rivalry. Those made for some exciting games back in the day. The Bisu vs Savior hype was short lived, not to mention Savior has been consistently unable to put up a fight vs him anyways. What do you guys think? Will Flash and Jaedong develop a rivalry worthy of the Boxer vs Yellow era? I think they are off to a good start.
lol only with fakesteve running the powerrank would we see sea take #1 with almost nothing to back it up. you need to get off his dick and be objective.
On August 06 2008 11:21 L!MP wrote: lol only with fakesteve running the powerrank would we see sea take #1 with almost nothing to back it up. you need to get off his dick and be objective.
This might be impatient, but when's the next PR going to be posted? I'm pretty eager to read up on the commentary for this month... especially after ForGG's sudden asskickings.
On August 06 2008 14:34 xxsaznpride wrote: Haha even FS is cussing at the stupidity now.
This might be impatient, but when's the next PR going to be posted? I'm pretty eager to read up on the commentary for this month... especially after ForGG's sudden asskickings.
lol i was about to make the same post cept im waiting on julyzergs commentary
On August 06 2008 14:34 xxsaznpride wrote: Haha even FS is cussing at the stupidity now.
This might be impatient, but when's the next PR going to be posted? I'm pretty eager to read up on the commentary for this month... especially after ForGG's sudden asskickings.
On August 06 2008 14:34 xxsaznpride wrote: Haha even FS is cussing at the stupidity now.
This might be impatient, but when's the next PR going to be posted? I'm pretty eager to read up on the commentary for this month... especially after ForGG's sudden asskickings.
tomorrow evening
omg thank you i love u steve! il enjoy it with my dinner
On July 31 2008 17:50 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: backho is not going on the power rank
he's a shitty fucking player, if you want to pretend he had "GREAT RESULTS THIS MONTH" maybe you should pay attention to what fucking happens in leagues. backho lost more games than he won this month
don't try to tell me his win over nada in wcg makes him power rank material because i'll laugh in your face
A win over NaDa doesn't alone make him PR material. None of his individual wins do. Even vs high profile opponents such as Kal or Stork. It's when you take all his wins and put them in a big row that you realise that he just keeps on winning.
+ 08-07-30 WCG2008 Korea (Twilight) Othello (T)NaDa Win + 08-07-30 WCG2008 Korea (Space Platform) Andromeda (T)NaDa Win + 08-07-04 EVER2008 OSL (Twilight) Othello (Z)July Loss + 08-07-04 EVER2008 OSL (Desert) Troy (Z)July Win + 08-07-04 EVER2008 OSL (Space Platform) Andromeda (Z)July Loss + 08-07-04 EVER2008 OSL (Jungle World) Hwarangdo (Z)July Loss + 08-07-01 Shinhan08 Proleague (Space Platform) Andromeda (Z)Haran Loss
This is parallel to the fact that backho sucks terrible ass.
And now add the GSL games. Removing one of the tournaments he got to the semifinals of simply because kespa politics refused it recognition is pointless. The games he played were Starcraft and therefore they count. You can argue that the less important the competition the less they practice so it counts for less but given the GSL prize pool I don't think that's relevant here. Saying a player sucks ass and using a list of games missing the league they came joint 3rd as proof isn't a great argument.
Ok, cool. I got first in the SexyTime league and the SuperBestFriends league, so I'm #2 Britain (behind Midian). I don't care if you've never heard of them, they were StarCraft and therefore they count.
You have to draw the line somewhere, and that line is kespa.
It's not an objective ranking system like ELO, so there doesn't need to be a distinct line. It's just Steve's opinion of the current top ten players in the world. It's probably based more on how the players are actually playing (BackHo sucks even when he wins) than on win/loss stats, so why would he leave out GSL?
edit: Skins was for charity btw. :p
I understand that, I was referring to Kwark's comment in this thread.
yeah he went to ten, and when his slump continued he dropped. Just like Sea, light, savior, and virtually everyone else has done in the past. You dont go from 5 to naughta because you drop what, three games?
On August 07 2008 03:34 Dazed_Spy wrote: kal has a single rough month...that doesn't mean he should just be shrugged off like that...
Considering the power rank is for who's doing well in a given month, you really think so?
The power rank is a monthly update on who is the top players in the world. Its like saying if Flash, playing like he was a few months ago, got cheesed out of a major league he should be dropped because other players have made it furthur and won more games. Nonsense. Its about who is better.
On August 07 2008 03:34 Dazed_Spy wrote: kal has a single rough month...that doesn't mean he should just be shrugged off like that...
Considering the power rank is for who's doing well in a given month, you really think so?
It is not really for doing well in a given month, it is about who is the best right now (or was the best during very recent history.) The games are nothing more than a tool to determine who is playing good, and ofc, winning and playing good generally coincide. IMHO, the games I have seen this month has not changed my view that Kal is one of the ten best players right now. If you see it differently, who would you have up there? BBYong, who is 2-1 this month, beating Kal. The games from this month would indicate that he is better, yet I will be any sum (of internetz moneh) that he will not be on PR.
Right now, I have a heard time finding 10 names who are worthy, but I think Kal is one of them.
On August 07 2008 03:34 Dazed_Spy wrote: kal has a single rough month...that doesn't mean he should just be shrugged off like that...
Considering the power rank is for who's doing well in a given month, you really think so?
It is not really for doing well in a given month, it is about who is the best right now (or was the best during very recent history.) The games are nothing more than a tool to determine who is playing good, and ofc, winning and playing good generally coincide. IMHO, the games I have seen this month has not changed my view that Kal is one of the ten best players right now. If you see it differently, who would you have up there? BBYong, who is 2-1 this month, beating Kal. The games from this month would indicate that he is better, yet I will be any sum (of internetz moneh) that he will not be on PR.
Right now, I have a heard time finding 10 names who are worthy, but I think Kal is one of them.
I guess I misunderstood PR.
But I agree, it is difficult of ten really great players right now.
He won every single game he played during July, and against some pretty fierce competition and in proleague playoffs. He might not deserve top10 status but i think that performance should surely earn a CBNC spot right??