Power Rank 01/16/2009
Forum Index > Polls & Liquibet |
FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
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Deleted User 31060
3788 Posts
will read. edit: he still would have lost to BackHo. | ||
DennizR
Sweden653 Posts
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Heyoka
Katowice25012 Posts
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arbiter_md
Moldova1219 Posts
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wtflah
United States92 Posts
To the person above, someone eliminated from both leagues and so devastatingly doesn't deserve #1. | ||
Pioneer
994 Posts
and arbiter_md did you even watch Bisu getting crushed in MSL/OSL? He went from being the best PvZer to a guy getting raped by a slumping Savior, a bad ZvPer, and a no name (all 3 Z) and bitching about maps. I love Bisu but after that whole string of events he should be lucky to be where he is on the PR ;/. | ||
spydernoob
Canada1066 Posts
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DownMaxX
Canada1311 Posts
On January 16 2009 00:52 arbiter_md wrote: You are just wrong. Should have kept Bisu for no.1 and wait one month until decide who deserves this spot. First is a tough call, and very debatable, but imho Bisu doesn't deserve it. He's just not on top of his game right now. Getting booted out of both the OSL and MSL by B-players of his best matchup and blaming the maps... | ||
Purind
Canada3562 Posts
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 16 2009 00:55 wtflah wrote: Btw, bisu did win one game in the MSL, against Magma. To the person above, someone eliminated from both leagues and so devastatingly doesn't deserve #1. I would hardly call two dogs sniffing each other's butts a "won game of starcraft" I like Bisu, but it's hard to be nice after such a dismal display. | ||
Carnac
Germany / USA16648 Posts
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raga4ka
Bulgaria5676 Posts
July and the rest of the dragons for CNBC . Also skyhigh , Effort and some other good performers for CNBC such as Mind and some other company .... | ||
Deleted User 31060
3788 Posts
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 16 2009 00:58 Sunyveil wrote: yeah Jangbi basically got a free pass to the semis. He only played PvT on really bad maps for terran, and BackHo forfeited, even though Jangbi was about to lose. For this to be true, BackHo would have to be some sort of good player, which he is not. Stork losing that series is not a credit to Backho, it's a scar on Stork's hide. Backho is fucking TERRIBLE. We are talking about a player who has been hyped up by certain people on TL and yet still can't win more than half of his games. | ||
baubo
China3370 Posts
Anyway, this is an "in-between" month anyway. Next month, everyone starts playing in the MSL/OSL, we'll truly see who's top notch. But IMO, Bisu has nowhere to go but down unless he wins GOM, because getting kicked out of Ro36/Ro32 in the major starleagues just doesn't cut it. | ||
Carnac
Germany / USA16648 Posts
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Ozarugold
2716 Posts
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
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arbiter_md
Moldova1219 Posts
On January 16 2009 00:55 Pioneer wrote: Leta & Hwasin and arbiter_md did you even watch Bisu getting crushed in MSL/OSL? He went from being the best PvZer to a guy getting raped by a slumping Savior, a bad ZvPer, and a no name (all 3 Z) and bitching about maps. I love Bisu but after that whole string of events he should be lucky to be where he is on the PR ;/. Yes, I watched the games and they certainly have not been good. But putting for nr. 1 a guy who didn't face any challenge this month is just wrong. Bisu could have been kept there just because he was there last time, and nobody deserves that spot. Or, even better would have been to let that spot empty. | ||
Velr
Switzerland10406 Posts
I mean: If you would have done this yesterday Bisu most probably would be Nr. 1? He dropped cause of games the others have not played yet? As for the rest... I agree but expect this to look WAY diffrent next month/ after the OSL qualification/MSL round.... Btw: I would have put Skyhigh on 10 but i completly forgot about Hwasin ^^. Can't argue with Hwasins results... | ||
Burre
Sweden154 Posts
I won't say I agree with every above placement but my god, Steve, you sure know how to put on a show. I've never read a more entertaining PR. Thank you! | ||
lxginverse
Monaco1506 Posts
On January 16 2009 00:52 arbiter_md wrote: You are just wrong. Should have kept Bisu for no.1 and wait one month until decide who deserves this spot. huh? it would have been better to have Leta as no.1 though the others except for yarnc are fine i dont think he deserved to be there | ||
IdrA
United States11541 Posts
On January 16 2009 01:00 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: For this to be true, BackHo would have to be some sort of good player, which he is not. Stork losing that series is not a credit to Backho, it's a scar on Stork's hide. Backho is fucking TERRIBLE. We are talking about a player who has been hyped up by certain people on TL and yet still can't win more than half of his games. people arent really serious when they say backho would.. .. win games are they? i thought it was just a big running joke. | ||
FaCE_1
Canada6114 Posts
I think Best could had been a spot or 2 better .. at least over Strok but still ok I'm still Jangbi wtf :D, I woudl gave the #1 to Leta but since Jangbi did beat Leta.. I guess it's ok also | ||
Carnac
Germany / USA16648 Posts
On January 16 2009 01:01 arbiter_md wrote: Yes, I watched the games and they certainly have not been good. But putting for nr. 1 a guy who didn't face any challenge this month is just wrong. Bisu could have been kept there just because he was there last time, and nobody deserves that spot. Or, even better would have been to let that spot empty. You gotta be kidding me -.- Theres is no imaginable way whatsoever that could justify keeping Bisu at 1, when he goes 0-2 in each of the first rounds of OSL and MSL. Just no way. | ||
FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 16 2009 01:00 baubo wrote: I think I'm even more surprised at Leta coming out of nowhere to be #2 than Jangbi at #1, since Jangbi's been playing at top 5 level for several months now. Also surprised that Free dropped out and Hwasin dropped in. Yarnc I can almost understand. But I thought if you're going to put in another terran, ForGG and Mind seems to make more sense. Anyway, this is an "in-between" month anyway. Next month, everyone starts playing in the MSL/OSL, we'll truly see who's top notch. But IMO, Bisu has nowhere to go but down unless he wins GOM, because getting kicked out of Ro36/Ro32 in the major starleagues just doesn't cut it. fOrGG and Mind were candidates, but after watching their last five games each, and then watching Hwasin's games, the choice was clear. If this was a month ago, you'd certainly be correct. And free, yeah. I debated a lot of different things with myself about free, but in the end the gameplay just doesn't match the ranking. It did last month, because he played quite a few notable matches, but this month he's just been a run-of-the-mill second-rate protoss, save his win over Mind. But again, Mind shouldn't be ranked, so how can I reward free for beating him if he loses to even lesser players? | ||
spydernoob
Canada1066 Posts
FBH FOR PR #1 | ||
Fwmeh
1286 Posts
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 16 2009 01:03 Carnac wrote: You gotta be kidding me -.- Theres is no imaginable way whatsoever that could justify keeping Bisu at 1, when he goes 0-2 in each of the first rounds of OSL and MSL. Just no way. He did win *one* game, I was just being mean to make a point. That point is: what the hell, Bisu? | ||
AzureEye
United States1360 Posts
Where is Kal on the PR btw? The guy had a few losses but he has been performing well lately PR is becoming way too fickle, surprised to see someone who wasn't even on the PR last month become #2, even though Leta was doing very good last month too | ||
Darth Peter
Romania438 Posts
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Carnac
Germany / USA16648 Posts
On January 16 2009 01:07 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: He did win *one* game, I was just being mean to make a point. That point is: what the hell, Bisu? Silly me. Anyway - I was expecting him to drop out of either MSL or OSL early for some reason, but this... seriously | ||
FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 16 2009 01:07 Mogwai wrote: So Stork's loss in GOM was to BackHo... so what? You talk a lot about looking at how someone lost rather than just taking the results at face value, but you seem to just ignore that sometimes and berate players for losing to certain other players that you think suck. Now, I'm not really going to debate that BackHo doesn't suck, cause well, he does, but he played his balls off in that series and managed to play exceptional PvP in a Bo3. If there was something more to Stork's placement, fine, then say it, but don't cut a dude 4 places for losing a tight match with someone who was playing a great match. Hmmm If you really think it was a close series with good player from both sides, I can understand your concern. I watched the games a few times trying to figure out what I was watching, because in my eyes it was some seriously poor play fom both sides. I wouldn't base the PR off name value alone | ||
Pioneer
994 Posts
On January 16 2009 01:01 arbiter_md wrote: Yes, I watched the games and they certainly have not been good. But putting for nr. 1 a guy who didn't face any challenge this month is just wrong. Bisu could have been kept there just because he was there last time, and nobody deserves that spot. Or, even better would have been to let that spot empty. What? JangBi played much better and won more than Bisu did so he moved up regardless of the opponents he played and Bisu played much worse opponents than JangBi did since the last PR. | ||
FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 16 2009 01:08 Darth Peter wrote: Okay,so obviously,when things are unclear you just put Hwasin or Sea on the list. I already expressed my disgust for Jangbi being no1 in the last PR. Bisu shouldn't be o1,obviously,but 5 is a little low after his great month. And try to write something accurately. Bisu beat Magma. So he is not without win. I am just curious what will be your reaction when Jagnbi loses against Flash in the All-kill Proleague and gets eliminated from the MSL. And I now I have sworn this already,but this is truly the last time I post in a PR made by you. I want Oneother back. Great! | ||
Ideas
United States7944 Posts
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zer0das
United States8519 Posts
Jangbi's played fewer games and his loses are to Shine[kaL], fantasy, and Effort. Why is Jangbi even ahead of Jaedong? Sure Jaedong has looked shaky, but he's also beaten the bloody pulp out of several good players. Leta I could buy, but Jangbi... nope. | ||
diehilde
Germany1596 Posts
The game against zero bisu sucked I gotta admit that, but against savior he played good. Savior just outplayed him and did all the necessary moves, observer snipes at the right time, shuttle snipes and the right attacking choices. Sure he had some luck as well, but overall he won in a great zvp against a great opponent. | ||
FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 16 2009 01:12 Ideas wrote: Good PR, the only change I would make would probably be replacing Yarnc with Effort. I had considered that, but in the end it came down to the fact that Effort isn't in any league right now, and Yarnc is in OSL and MSL. MSL from a round of 8 seed, yes, but he did qualify for OSL by winning games. | ||
Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
On January 16 2009 01:09 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: Hmmm If you really think it was a close series with good player from both sides, I can understand your concern. I watched the games a few times trying to figure out what I was watching, because in my eyes it was some seriously poor play fom both sides. I wouldn't base the PR off name value alone well, as far as I could tell, they were playing well, but the intricacies of PvP are completely lost on me, so I could easily not know what I'm talking about. The point is, it wasn't like last season when Stork was just like, "dur dur dur, observers are for chumps who want to waste gas" and lost to DTs 2 times in a row, these were legit games. Whether they were executed to the level you would expect from Stork is not really something I'm qualified to say, but it sure seemed to me that they were both playing good goon + reaver games and BackHo just outplayed him. | ||
baubo
China3370 Posts
On January 16 2009 01:03 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: fOrGG and Mind were candidates, but after watching their last five games each, and then watching Hwasin's games, the choice was clear. If this was a month ago, you'd certainly be correct. And free, yeah. I debated a lot of different things with myself about free, but in the end the gameplay just doesn't match the ranking. It did last month, because he played quite a few notable matches, but this month he's just been a run-of-the-mill second-rate protoss, save his win over Mind. But again, Mind shouldn't be ranked, so how can I reward free for beating him if he loses to even lesser players? Okay, I haven't watched their plays lately. But I remembered that as beginning of the month, both Mind and ForGG played quite well, while Hwasin kept losing and losing. But checked the TLPD and realized that things have changed a bit since then. Still, Mind was kicking ass for a stretch there, but he's just so inconsistent... But the main reason I'm surprised at Hwasin is just how badly he was playing up until now. I mean, he was literally losing left and right for quite a while. But then for some reason he got his act together and pummeled though his OSL qualifiers group. I guess he just sucks in the proleagues? | ||
MrHoon
10183 Posts
Anyways, it looks like FS is giving alot of credit to Flash and JD. And people, you realize in Korea JD was a laughing stock for a good... 3 weeks? JD is lucky to be #4. And honestly, Flash shouldn't be in top 5 imo, but goddamn, everyone else has been doing so fucking terrible. This looks good, although I would've put Leta #1, but good nonetheless! | ||
FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 16 2009 01:13 zer0das wrote: I'm completely baffled by this ranking. Jangbi? You say Flash hasn't played well against good opponents except Bisu... but the only other good players he's played are Jaedong (0-1), Stork (0-1), and that's it. He's had one other loss and that was against Horrang2. Jangbi's played fewer games and his loses are to Shine[kaL], fantasy, and Effort. Why is Jangbi even ahead of Jaedong? Sure Jaedong has looked shaky, but he's also beaten the bloody pulp out of several good players. Leta I could buy, but Jangbi... nope. Believe me, I don't like it either, but it's all about the gameplay. It's no secret that Jangbi has been one of the top players recently, and by watching the games everyone else has played, Jangbi seems to be the only one who has completely retained his dominant edge in the last few weeks. His losses weren't a result of his own bad play (except for the game against Shine[kaL], but can we really punish Jangbi more for one ProLeague loss than we punish any other player for a string of unimpressive games?) | ||
Hyperionnn
Turkey4968 Posts
For PR:Jangbi for #1 aint good, leta would be a better choice imo, he is in both leagues as jangbi and raping everybody | ||
FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 16 2009 01:17 baubo wrote: Okay, I haven't watched their plays lately. But I remembered that as beginning of the month, both Mind and ForGG played quite well, while Hwasin kept losing and losing. But checked the TLPD and realized that things have changed a bit since then. Still, Mind was kicking ass for a stretch there, but he's just so inconsistent... But the main reason I'm surprised at Hwasin is just how badly he was playing up until now. I mean, he was literally losing left and right for quite a while. But then for some reason he got his act together and pummeled though his OSL qualifiers group. I guess he just sucks in the proleagues? Hwasin has always been a ProLeague punching bag He's had moderate success in certain seasons, but is never really at the front of the pack. | ||
samachking
Bahrain4949 Posts
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Dr.Green
Philippines264 Posts
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arbiter_md
Moldova1219 Posts
Yes he played bad in the group stages, but he played stelar in the GOM and proleague. He is judged for results in the MSL, when all the others are not, because they didn't play the games yet. I just disagree. He doesn't deserve nr 1, because his pvz is bad right now, but nobody else deserves this spot either. | ||
FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 16 2009 01:25 arbiter_md wrote: A man, for the first time in Protoss history gains a ELO of 2300. He goes 4-1 in one day against all three races. And in that same month he is droped from 1 to 5 in PR. And the nr 1 in that PR is just another protoss. Yes he played bad in the group stages, but he played stelar in the GOM and proleague. He is judged for results in the MSL, when all the others are not, because they didn't play the games yet. I just disagree. He doesn't deserve nr 1, because his pvz is bad right now, but nobody else deserves this spot either. Yeah, I can understand your viewpoint. It just came down to the fact that only Jangbi has kept up his dominant play that earned his spot last month. I couldn't put Leta at #1 with only ProLeague on his resume, and in Bisu's case specifically there was a significant drop in play level. | ||
zer0das
United States8519 Posts
Speaking of which, first time the #1 in power rank doesn't have a starleague under his belt. Edit: Mm.. well, I guess it's the second one. Flash won GSI before he won the OSL and there was a bit of a lag so he was #1 before his OSL win. But it was practically a given at that point. | ||
Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 16 2009 01:23 samachking wrote: Jangbi vs Shinekal was a ling all in so I would not put too much stock in that game. Nice PR but I would put Free over Hwasin even if Free wasn't in the OSL. He showed good games vs Mind even with sloppy openings. I'm of the opinion that losing to a ling all-in is something a Protoss should be able to scout for and defend. Stork seems to do so with some consistancy. I probably punish a Protoss more for losing to a ling all-in than anyone else would. And still, I couldn't give #1 to a different player. As for free, despite his relative success in GOM and his berth in MSL, his games lately have been pretty shoddy. I certainly wouldn't put him above anyone else, though it's definitely debatable that he should replace Hwasin at #10. It simply came down to some clutch play by Hwasin to qualify for both OSL and MSL, which is something that not even the rest of the PR accomplished on the whole. | ||
FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 16 2009 01:28 zer0das wrote: Thing is, if you look at results, what are the ones that really matter? Starleagues. Everyone below Jangbi up until Best has one (except Leta, and he's a bit of a special case since he has done so well and is a likely candidate to take the OSL/MSL by storm). I'd take any of them over Jangbi, and I can't say that Jangbi would be a favorite over any of them (Stork... maybe, but that's a coin flip in my opinion). Speaking of which, first time the #1 in power rank doesn't have a starleague under his belt. Edit: Mm.. well, I guess it's the second one. Flash won GSI before he won the OSL and there was a bit of a lag so he was #1 before his OSL win. But it was practically a given at that point. Results matter, but above all else, good gameplay is king. I don't think anyone would argue that Jangbi's placement last month wasn't justified, and the rest of the pack has simply played worse. It's not like NaDa will be first place every month because he has six titles. | ||
raga4ka
Bulgaria5676 Posts
On January 16 2009 01:25 arbiter_md wrote: A man, for the first time in Protoss history gains a ELO of 2300. He goes 4-1 in one day against all three races. And in that same month he is droped from 1 to 5 in PR. And the nr 1 in that PR is just another protoss. Yes he played bad in the group stages, but he played stelar in the GOM and proleague. He is judged for results in the MSL, when all the others are not, because they didn't play the games yet. I just disagree. He doesn't deserve nr 1, because his pvz is bad right now, but nobody else deserves this spot either. OSL MSL outweight GOM and proleague . JangBI is the best choise for # 1 he has crushed almost all of the competition since he lost to Bisu . Bisu can retake it , but only if he wins GOM and other top players get wasted in the leagues . An all - kill format is coming so top players will benefit a lot if they do well in WL . | ||
baubo
China3370 Posts
On January 16 2009 01:13 zer0das wrote: I'm completely baffled by this ranking. Jangbi? You say Flash hasn't played well against good opponents except Bisu... but the only other good players he's played are Jaedong (0-1), Stork (0-1), and that's it. He's had one other loss and that was against Horrang2. Jangbi's played fewer games and his loses are to Shine[kaL], fantasy, and Effort. Why is Jangbi even ahead of Jaedong? Sure Jaedong has looked shaky, but he's also beaten the bloody pulp out of several good players. Leta I could buy, but Jangbi... nope. On January 16 2009 01:28 zer0das wrote: Thing is, if you look at results, what are the ones that really matter? Starleagues. Everyone below Jangbi up until Best has one (except Leta, and he's a bit of a special case since he has done so well and is a likely candidate to take the OSL/MSL by storm). I'd take any of them over Jangbi, and I can't say that Jangbi would be a favorite over any of them (Stork... maybe, but that's a coin flip in my opinion). Speaking of which, first time the #1 in power rank doesn't have a starleague under his belt. Looking at your two posts, I'm not sure what you're trying to say. First you say that Leta may be #1, but then you say Jangbi shouldn't be considered because he lacks starleagues titles... And before you annoint Leta as the next royal roader or something, you do realize that in the past 2 months, Leta has played exactly TWO games against PR-level players, correct? Stop dissing Jangbi for not playing anyone when Leta has not played anyone significant either. Oh, by the way. When Leta played against those two PR-level players, Jangbi and Best, they absolutely schooled him. You can check the vods if you don't believe me. | ||
SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
Jangbi hasn't had a single good opponent or a SL game and you put him over seeds and a guy who's broken necks and records, and fans hearts. The guy breaks shit vs a scrub crusher. =( GJ Jangbi, you beat Pepe, go claim the #1 PR | ||
FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 16 2009 01:39 SuperJongMan wrote: Worst PR ever. Sorry steve, but releasing once every two months with a joke of a first is bad. Jangbi hasn't had a single good opponent or a SL game and you put him over seeds and a guy who's broken necks and records, and fans hearts. The guy breaks shit vs a scrub crusher. =( GJ Jangbi, you beat Pepe, go claim the #1 PR I'm not ranking people on KeSPA points here, jonger. I made it pretty clear that Jangbi's placement is simply a lack of alternatives. Read what's written! | ||
AzureEye
United States1360 Posts
On January 16 2009 01:35 raga4ka wrote: OSL MSL outweight GOM and proleague . JangBI is the best choise for # 1 he has crushed almost all of the competition since he lost to Bisu . Bisu can retake it , but only if he wins GOM and other top players get wasted in the leagues . An all - kill format is coming so top players will benefit a lot if they do well in WL . Whether its OSL or MSL, unless we're talking about winning OSL/MSL finals or beating a really good player Bo5, I don't think it really matters if its starleague or gom. Sure, if a good player drops out of MSL/OSL, it will hurt his resume but good games come from starleagues as well, you can get opponents just as skilled. I don't think Jangbi was a good choice for #1, he's shown positive results but I'd definately put Leta above Jangbi unless Jangbi wins GOM finals or something. Jangbi is not going to win any leagues, you heard it here first | ||
Torlak
Macedonia74 Posts
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meegrean
Thailand7699 Posts
I think Hwasin should be a little bit higher than number 10. | ||
Geo.Rion
7375 Posts
Firstly Jangbi IS NOT champion material, a guy who just win games and plays well, makes it to semis, or even to a final does not have to be 1st, no matter what. Secondly Leta is a beast and he's on fire indeed, so his 2nd place might be justified BUT Leta is very good at winning 1 or possibly 2 games. Now that the SLs are approaching bo3 and bo5 and the PL switched to all-kill format he will have to step up to that, and i don't think he's capable. Furthermore JD should be switched with Flash he's just as good as him in PL, he's in both leagues just as Flash, got the second spot in the MSL grop just as Flash did, AND HE IS 2-0 against Flash in their recent games. Notable players Flash beat recently(nonmirror): Free. And in that game free wasted the greatest lead he could have in 2 minutes. Notable players JD beat recently(nonmirror): Fantasy, Hwasin, Bisu, Skyhigh, Flash... JD dropped some games he shouldnt, Flash lost to every high caliber opponent (Stork, Bisu, Jaedong) Bisu on 5th? After he was clearly nr 1 for more than a month, and due to the lateness of the PR he dropped 4 fucking spots, that just looks unfair. Anyone who would have made the PR yesterday Bisu would have got fist rank. And screwing up his OSL group 1-2 he dropped so bad... *Sigh*... God... | ||
FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 16 2009 01:41 AzureEye wrote: Whether its OSL or MSL, unless we're talking about winning OSL/MSL finals or beating a really good player Bo5, I don't think it really matters if its starleague or gom. Sure, if a good player drops out of MSL/OSL, it will hurt his resume but good games come from starleagues as well, you can get opponents just as skilled. I don't think Jangbi was a good choice for #1, he's shown positive results but I'd definately put Leta above Jangbi unless Jangbi wins GOM finals or something. Jangbi is not going to win any leagues, you heard it here first It's entirely likely that Bisu will crush Jangbi in the GOM final. That doesn't mean Bisu can get away with playing like a little chobo and making a quick exit from the two biggest leagues. Jangbi has been a consistant semifinalist in MSL over the last few seasons, and has wrecked every opponent he played in GOM. I don't like Jangbi, at all, but there's just no reason to put anyone above him. It looks wierd, I know. It IS wierd. Players don't always play up to their potential. We can't put someone above Jangbi just because 'they are soooooo good', especially if they've been losing games in terrible form. | ||
FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 16 2009 01:45 Geo.Rion wrote: i agree with Hwasin on 10th place, 8th 9th place are arguable but wise choises, 7-6 are ok, maybe a switch wont hurt, but i want to explode when i see that top5. Firstly Jangbi IS NOT champion material, a guy who just win games and plays well, makes it to semis, or even to a final does not have to be 1st, no matter what. Secondly Leta is a beast and he's on fire indeed, so his 2nd place might be justified BUT Leta is very good at winning 1 or possibly to 2 games. Now that the SLs are approaching bo3 and bo5 and the PL switched to all-kill format he will have to step up to that, and i don't think he's capable. Furthermore JD should be Flash he's just as good as him in PL, he's in both leagues just as Flash, got the second spot in the MSL grop just as Flash did, AND HE IS 2-0 against Flash in their recent games. Bisu on 5th? After he was clearly nr 1 for more than a month, and due to the lateness of the PR he dropped 4 fucking spots, that just looks unfair. Anyone who would have made the PR yesterday Bisu would have got fist rank. And screwing up his OSL group 1-2 he dropped so bad... *Sigh*... God... Yeah, if the Rank came out a few days ago, Bisu would have been #1. It's late, I know, I'm sorry. It's pretty hectic in FakeSteve's world lately I don't think it'd be right to put Bisu at #1 simply because if the Rank came out on time he'd have it. This needs to be up-to-date when it comes out, or the whole thing is moot. Again, sorry it's late. If Bisu had played well, though, he'd have retained his spot. Don't go blaming me! | ||
raga4ka
Bulgaria5676 Posts
On January 16 2009 01:39 SuperJongMan wrote: Worst PR ever. Sorry steve, but releasing once every two months with a joke of a first is bad. Jangbi hasn't had a single good opponent or a SL game and you put him over seeds and a guy who's broken necks and records, and fans hearts. The guy breaks shit vs a scrub crusher. =( GJ Jangbi, you beat Pepe, go claim the #1 PR Well excuse me for Leta , Hwasin , Kal , Really and Zero being scrubs .... At least now i have more faiths of JangBI makeing it out of group similar to Bisu's who couldn't even beat Zero . Notable players that Bisu killed are Flash , Effort and Pusan , but at least JangBI didn't crash and burn out of 2 leagues in 1 week . | ||
Geo.Rion
7375 Posts
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 16 2009 01:53 Geo.Rion wrote: btw no CBNC? I'll be adding free, skyhigh, and savior in a few hours. Other people you'd like to see? | ||
raga4ka
Bulgaria5676 Posts
On January 16 2009 01:54 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: I'll be adding free, skyhigh, and savior in a few hours. Other people you'd like to see? July for God's sake ... Also maybe Effort , Mind , kal , Zero , ForGG some other notable players ... you can think of like lux , Sea , Hiya , Upmagic haven't been doing that bad , your choice . It's fun when there is more to read in the CBNC . Zero did manage to beat Jaedong in ZvZ so thats always a great boost in performance even if he was lucky with the BO or whatever and he also made it out of his group in MSL . | ||
Shippo
Finland20 Posts
On January 16 2009 01:54 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: I'll be adding free, skyhigh, and savior in a few hours. Other people you'd like to see? No Effort? | ||
AzureEye
United States1360 Posts
I hope Bisu moves up few slots by crushing Jangbi | ||
MrHoon
10183 Posts
On January 16 2009 01:45 Geo.Rion wrote: i agree with Hwasin on 10th place, 8th 9th place are arguable but wise choises, 7-6 are ok, maybe a switch wont hurt, but i want to explode when i see that top5. Firstly Jangbi IS NOT champion material, a guy who just win games and plays well, makes it to semis, or even to a final does not have to be 1st, no matter what. Secondly Leta is a beast and he's on fire indeed, so his 2nd place might be justified BUT Leta is very good at winning 1 or possibly 2 games. Now that the SLs are approaching bo3 and bo5 and the PL switched to all-kill format he will have to step up to that, and i don't think he's capable. Furthermore JD should be switched with Flash he's just as good as him in PL, he's in both leagues just as Flash, got the second spot in the MSL grop just as Flash did, AND HE IS 2-0 against Flash in their recent games. Notable players Flash beat recently(nonmirror): Free. And in that game free wasted the greatest lead he could have in 2 minutes. Notable players JD beat recently(nonmirror): Fantasy, Hwasin, Bisu, Skyhigh, Flash... JD dropped some games he shouldnt, Flash lost to every high caliber opponent (Stork, Bisu, Jaedong) Bisu on 5th? After he was clearly nr 1 for more than a month, and due to the lateness of the PR he dropped 4 fucking spots, that just looks unfair. Anyone who would have made the PR yesterday Bisu would have got fist rank. And screwing up his OSL group 1-2 he dropped so bad... *Sigh*... God... did you know they gave a new nickname to Jaedong in Korea? Its "My city is now like the North" (이제동네북) Jaedong may have been performing better than before, but don't forget he was in a slump many thought would destroy his career. Right now, the numbers on the PR don't mean shit because everyone has been doing fucking terrible. | ||
ZBiR
Poland1092 Posts
On January 16 2009 01:54 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: I'll be adding free, skyhigh, and savior in a few hours. Other people you'd like to see? Sea, Mind, maybe Kal? | ||
FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 16 2009 01:59 MrHoon wrote: did you know they gave a new nickname to Jaedong in Korea? Its "My city is now like the North" (이제동네북) Jaedong may have been performing better than before, but don't forget he was in a slump many thought would destroy his career. Right now, the numbers on the PR don't mean shit because everyone has been doing fucking terrible. Yep. That's how Jangbi stumbled into first place. No idea what that new nickname is supposed to mean, though. The only explanation I can come up with seems really wierd. | ||
FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
Effort's been talked about in the comments, no problem for me to summarize it in CBNC | ||
Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
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Waxangel
United States32432 Posts
On January 16 2009 01:59 MrHoon wrote: did you know they gave a new nickname to Jaedong in Korea? Its "My city is now like the North" (이제동네북) Jaedong may have been performing better than before, but don't forget he was in a slump many thought would destroy his career. Right now, the numbers on the PR don't mean shit because everyone has been doing fucking terrible. ummm 동네북 = neighborhood drum, meaning everyone beats him. Anyway, that's kind of an old 'new' nickname, they started calling him 이제동네짱 (neighborhood bully) after he won the queen game vs Fantasy, and now people are back to debating how good he is. | ||
MrHoon
10183 Posts
On January 16 2009 02:06 Waxangel wrote: ummm 동네북 = neighborhood drum, meaning everyone beats him. Anyway, that's kind of an old 'new' nickname, they started calling him 이제동네짱 (neighborhood bully) after he won the queen game vs Fantasy, and now people are back to debating how good he is. owned by waxangel, nm. I swear it was a reference to how shitty 강북 is ;;; | ||
Fontong
United States6454 Posts
So I guess the only reason that there is no July is he isn't in leagues while Yarnc is? | ||
FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 16 2009 02:07 Fontong wrote: I hope Hwasin and Jangbi roll over and die.... So I guess the only reason that there is no July is he isn't in leagues while Yarnc is? That, and I'm probably a little harder on July because I love him. I think there needs to be some real progress made, not just some ProLeague wins (which are nowhere near on the scale of Leta's ProLeague wins), for July to return. | ||
Djin)ftw(
Germany3357 Posts
Nothingtheless Jangbi on #1? lol Ok, Bisu got eliminated both from MSL and OSL by ... beatable Zerg. But he is still the better player, I dont know why bad results are so much more heavier weighted than no results (backho t.t). And I'd like to have seen July in the PR, I mean seriously, his 7 winstreak is MUCH more impressive than yellows 4-0 against a 40% pvz and 33% tvz, lol wtf | ||
raga4ka
Bulgaria5676 Posts
On January 16 2009 02:07 Fontong wrote: I hope Hwasin and Jangbi roll over and die.... So I guess the only reason that there is no July is he isn't in leagues while Yarnc is? Yeah he missed on MSL because of byzantinum 2 , he has been on fire for a little while in PL thought and still in OSL . | ||
disciple
9069 Posts
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Geo.Rion
7375 Posts
On January 16 2009 01:54 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: I'll be adding free, skyhigh, and savior in a few hours. Other people you'd like to see? Effort, Zero maybe, Mind looked really strong till he met Hwasin, Kal also is the Kal we used to and the Kal that gained high ranks in PR, inconsistent as always. | ||
FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 16 2009 02:09 Djin)ftw( wrote: "Despite the fact that Bisu may be better in two matchups, a player who doesn't win a single game in OSL/MSL can't be #1." Nothingtheless Jangbi on #1? lol Ok, Bisu got eliminated both from MSL and OSL by ... beatable Zerg. But he is still the better player, I dont know why bad results are so much more heavier weighted than no results (backho t.t). And I'd like to have seen July in the PR, I mean seriously, his 7 winstreak is MUCH more impressive than yellows 4-0 against a 40% pvz and 33% tvz, lol wtf I mean better by 'potential'. Bisu's most recent performances certainly aren't conducive to the #1 spot. Again, Jangbi is #1 because every other potential candidate has been dropping games in ways that are not acceptable for top-ranked players. Jangbi has been great, there's no question, but if any of the other top ranked players had maintained their level of play, Jangbi couldn't be #1. But they didn't, so here we are. It hurts my brain, but here we are. | ||
FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 16 2009 02:11 Geo.Rion wrote: Zero maybe, Mind looked really strong till he met Hwasin, Kal also is the Kal we used to and the Kal that gained high ranks in PR, inconsistent as always. Yep, Kal is still Kal. He's capable of great things, but quite often doesn't deliver. Certainly he hasn't delivered lately | ||
raga4ka
Bulgaria5676 Posts
On January 16 2009 02:10 disciple wrote: as much as I'm big fan of FS I must say the current PR is crap. Yes maybe Bisu is already out from both SL but you can see those 4 games just as 4 losses. The aftermath of Bisu's screw up will affect his entire season. However he was near perfect for the past month or so. I still think bisu is the best player on earth, not only that but he is still on top by a considerable margin. The thing is he he had two terrible days, which rise up many 'maybes' but the fact is bisus pvt and pvp are in a different league compared to jangbi. Yes he fucked up 4 games, but the results of that are yet to be seen and erasing his overall performance for the past weeks is wrong. I think JangBi is number 1 because someone has to take the spot. Then why not Jaedong ? Not to mention that stork doesnt have a place in a power rank... Leta is just awesome but he needs a silverware to prove himself. Flash over Bisu ? Why ? Flash basically lost all important games last month vs stork, jaedong, 3 times against bisu... Anyway thanks for the PR FakeSteve... if not else its very provocative Well Flash lost to 3 top players , while Bisu lost to the underdogs in his groups ... And also have you seen JangBI's PvT ? It's definitely in a different league then Bisu's a league above that is ... | ||
disciple
9069 Posts
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Geo.Rion
7375 Posts
On January 16 2009 02:14 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: Yep, Kal is still Kal. He's capable of great things, but quite often doesn't deliver. Certainly he hasn't delivered lately I missed July!! he seems solid in mirror, showed great ZvT against FBH (Jaedong style Chupung-reyon play) and his ZvP is good as ever | ||
baubo
China3370 Posts
On January 16 2009 02:10 disciple wrote: as much as I'm big fan of FS I must say the current PR is crap. Yes maybe Bisu is already out from both SL but you can see those 4 games just as 4 losses. The aftermath of Bisu's screw up will affect his entire season. However he was near perfect for the past month or so. I still think bisu is the best player on earth, not only that but he is still on top by a considerable margin. The thing is he he had two terrible days, which rise up many 'maybes' but the fact is bisus pvt and pvp are in a different league compared to jangbi. Yes he fucked up 4 games, but the results of that are yet to be seen and erasing his overall performance for the past weeks is wrong. I think JangBi is number 1 because someone has to take the spot. Then why not Jaedong ? Not to mention that stork doesnt have a place in a power rank... Leta is just awesome but he needs a silverware to prove himself. Flash over Bisu ? Why ? Flash basically lost all important games last month vs stork, jaedong, 3 times against bisu... Anyway thanks for the PR FakeSteve... if not else its very provocative There is no excuse for the "best player in the world" to lose 4 straight matches in his best matchup, in the most important tournaments of starcraft. EVER. And I know he won against Magma, but winning PvZ on Byzantium doesn't count because it's FREAKING Byzantium. So Bisu was basically 0-4 in the starleagues. If you do the above, you can't be considered the best player in the world. | ||
FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 16 2009 02:10 disciple wrote: as much as I'm big fan of FS I must say the current PR is crap. Yes maybe Bisu is already out from both SL but you can see those 4 games just as 4 losses. The aftermath of Bisu's screw up will affect his entire season. However he was near perfect for the past month or so. I still think bisu is the best player on earth, not only that but he is still on top by a considerable margin. The thing is he he had two terrible days, which rise up many 'maybes' but the fact is bisus pvt and pvp are in a different league compared to jangbi. Yes he fucked up 4 games, but the results of that are yet to be seen and erasing his overall performance for the past weeks is wrong. I think JangBi is number 1 because someone has to take the spot. Then why not Jaedong ? Not to mention that stork doesnt have a place in a power rank... Leta is just awesome but he needs a silverware to prove himself. Flash over Bisu ? Why ? Flash basically lost all important games last month vs stork, jaedong, 3 times against bisu... Anyway thanks for the PR FakeSteve... if not else its very provocative You're kind of understating how bad Bisu's last few games have been. He's still top 5, too. Jangbi's PvT is certainly on par with Bisu's, it's really worth praise. Yes, Jangbi is #1 because someone had to take the spot. However, the reasons Jaedong did not take it are outlined in the written part of the Rank. It's pretty well explained. I mean, not 'well' like 'don't think you I did a good job', I mean 'well' like 'it is explained' | ||
Magic84
Russian Federation1381 Posts
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disciple
9069 Posts
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Deletrious
United States458 Posts
For CBNC definitely July, who is on a great streak in proleague, which most detractors would say he sucks at. I also think he recently took the best career win percentage zvp, and he's marching towards 70%. I understand not putting him in the top ten till after he gets out of his OSL group. Other people... effort and free, zero continues to improve. | ||
Jyvblamo
Canada13788 Posts
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 16 2009 02:22 disciple wrote: guys your are so wrong PvZ is not bisu's best MU... thats his reputation but the fact is his PvP is his best... go check out the stats. before his OSL semi vs stork he had 15-15 record. After this he is on a total rampage against toss. After the series he is above 70% in the MU, not to mention that all bisu has done for his PvZ in the past year is to shit all over his impressive stats This is actually true, Bisu's PvP is his strongest matchup. Like I said, I wouldn't be surprised if Bisu won GOM. He's still an excellent player, that's why he's top 5. And it isn't like if Bisu recovers, he'll never reclaim the top spot. He just doesn't deserve it right now. | ||
Djin)ftw(
Germany3357 Posts
But ok, I could agree with that. But JANBGI on #1, thats just.. maybe there shouldnt have been a power rank this month. Flash > Jeadong, I dont know. Leta > Flash, I dont know. Bisu #5, I dont know. JANGBI #1, .... but ok, I havent seen all games, so I guess you win ^^ | ||
Fwmeh
1286 Posts
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 16 2009 02:26 Fwmeh wrote: I wonder how many of the people hating on Jangbi have actually bothered to watch any of his games. I said it in the old thread that I don't think he deserves 1st just yet. But that he would lack the ability to win an individual league is just laughable. I personally believe Stork when he says that Jangbi is the best player on Samsung, and I think it is only a matter of time before he proves it in a convincing manner. Yeah, it's pretty unreasonable to say that Jangbi doesn't have the skillset necessary to win a title. This is coming from someone who really doesn't like Jangbi, too. | ||
MrHoon
10183 Posts
Seriously. | ||
raga4ka
Bulgaria5676 Posts
On January 16 2009 02:22 disciple wrote: guys your are so wrong PvZ is not bisu's best MU... thats his reputation but the fact is his PvP is his best... go check out the stats. before his OSL semi vs stork he had 15-15 record. After this he is on a total rampage against toss. After the series he is above 70% in the MU, not to mention that all bisu has done for his PvZ in the past year is to shit all over his impressive stats Well PvP is maybe Bisu's best MU , but all of the six dragons have great PvP and are good vs someone and bad vs the other ( except maybe Free ? ) . Bisu's been known for his PvZ , because he boosts good results in a MU were good zergs dominate it . | ||
Dante08
Singapore4101 Posts
On January 16 2009 02:24 Jyvblamo wrote: Bisu really shouldn't have sold his PvZ to the devil in exchange for the PvT to beat Flash. lol ! | ||
bladeip
Macedonia11 Posts
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disciple
9069 Posts
On January 16 2009 02:28 raga4ka wrote: Well PvP is maybe Bisu's best MU , but all of the six dragons have great PvP and are good vs someone and bad vs the other . Bisu's been known for his PvZ , because he boosts good results in a MU were good zergs dominate it . bisu is known for his pvz because nobody can do the things he can in this MU. His style is unique and great to watch. And btw Bisu has pretty solid records against all the 'dragons' even stork. I'm not excusing bisu's last 4 pvz losses, not at all. Just the comments about 'lol bisu lost in his best MU to 3 noobs' are really pissing me off. | ||
FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 16 2009 02:27 MrHoon wrote: I don't understand. First people say putting 3 zergs into his MSL group is a smart idea since PvZ is his best and JD/FBH/FL fans should stop bitching. And now when he loses you all say PvZ is not his best MU. Seriously. This is why I think before I speak | ||
MrHoon
10183 Posts
On January 16 2009 02:30 bladeip wrote: How different would this PR be if Bisu had won against Zero and qualified for the MSL? I need an honest answer! Bisu would still be first and flash would drop to 6 along with stork imo. | ||
FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 16 2009 02:30 bladeip wrote: How different would this PR be if Bisu had won against Zero and qualified for the MSL? I need an honest answer! Very different. I understand that it seems odd one game could change the Rank so much, but we need to realize the significance of that game | ||
Dante08
Singapore4101 Posts
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Scamp
United States1086 Posts
That being said, I can't really object to the reasoning, and I like the list a lot. But I really wonder if someone plays incredibly well for a month and then just so-so for a week if that player would be placed higher or lower than someone who was just so-so for a month but is then unstoppable for the week right before the list coming out. Maybe it depends if the week includes qualifiers. Anyway, I also think the list(s) from now on should be dated as opposed to just saying "January Power Ranking." I can look at the first reply to see when the list came out, I guess, but it's not so clear just how far back the list covers. | ||
Aesop
Hungary11232 Posts
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 16 2009 02:33 Scamp wrote: It is my opinion that the list right now is an over-reaction to the last week, as opposed to a look at the entire month or whatever period this covers. That being said, I can't really object to the reasoning, and I like the list a lot. But I really wonder if someone plays incredibly well for a month and then just so-so for a week if that player would be placed higher or lower than someone who was just so-so for a month but is then unstoppable for the week right before the list coming out. Maybe it depends if the week includes qualifiers. Anyway, I also think the list(s) from now on should be dated as opposed to just saying "January Power Ranking." I can look at the first reply to see when the list came out, I guess, but it's not so clear just how far back the list covers. At the top of the screen when you read the Power Rank, the date it came out appears. It also shows it on the main Power Rank page with all the previous listings, I think. | ||
Geo.Rion
7375 Posts
On January 16 2009 02:27 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: Yeah, it's pretty unreasonable to say that Jangbi doesn't have the skillset necessary to win a title. This is coming from someone who really doesn't like Jangbi, too. No, that came from me, and i sustain it. I dont hate Jangbi, i even have him in my Fanrasy PL team even though i don't pick players or teams i dont like. But i'm absolutely sure he would loose in a final against any of the top players (JD, Flash, Bisu, Best) and might very well loose against players like Fantasy | ||
FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 16 2009 02:34 Aesop wrote: If anyone is arguing for putting Leta above Jangbi, you are totally neglecting the potential to go deep into individual leagues. There, Leta has shown NOTHING so far, opposed to Jangbi who has MSL Semis, MSL Finals and GOM Semis under his belt. Sea is a telling example of how good a player can be in Proleague and STILL fail to go far into Solo Leagues. Yep. Sea was every bit as dominant in PL as Leta currently is, it happened sooner in his career than it did Leta's (He wasn't on the team very long before he was put in the PL roster), and look where Sea is right now. Struggles in series play Not to say the parallel is concrete, just noting that we shouldn't get TOO excited. | ||
Fwmeh
1286 Posts
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Ideas
United States7944 Posts
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QuietIdiot
7004 Posts
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Coulthard
Greece3359 Posts
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 16 2009 02:41 Fwmeh wrote: Btw Steve, while I guess he wont get much credit for that one game, wouldn't it be true to say that ZerO has shown promise, especially in ZvT? It is certainly true that he is inconsistent, but I think that his games vs Flash, FBH and Sea has shown that he is at least capable of high-level ZvT. Zero shows something I wouldn't call 'promise'. His career is more lengthy than you might think. He is certainly capable of good play, and he put together a great string of games helping Woongjin take a short-lived #1 in PL weeks ago. Zero is slowly but steadily learning how to be a top-level Zerg. Whether he will succeed or not, we'll have to wait and see, but from his play you can certainly tell he's trying to lay the foundation down. | ||
Geo.Rion
7375 Posts
On January 16 2009 02:28 raga4ka wrote: Well PvP is maybe Bisu's best MU , but all of the six dragons have great PvP and are good vs someone and bad vs the other ( except maybe Free ? ) . Bisu's been known for his PvZ , because he boosts good results in a MU were good zergs dominate it . Actually PvP isnt the best MU of the Dragons. I would call it slightly the worst. Bisu and Best are really good at it, Free, Kal struggle, Jangbi is ok, and Stork used to be super-strong but recently he lost to backho and some other losses in PL. Everybody but Stork and Best got very good vZ skills, and even them, mostly Best, are showing results against good zergs. And who has weak vT? Kal maybe? I'd say he's just inconsistent, but... | ||
FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 16 2009 02:42 QuietIdiot wrote: By.great deserves some kind of mention imo. Wait, you mean the zerg from Samsung? Formerly known as Hades? Why? I'll grant you he has some strong ZvZ, but nothing else I've seen has made me think he has any sort of league success in his future. Can you point out some recent games that make you think he's worth mentioning? I'm sure I haven't seen all of them, cuz he's played almost nothing but scrubs. | ||
Scamp
United States1086 Posts
On January 16 2009 02:35 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: At the top of the screen when you read the Power Rank, the date it came out appears. It also shows it on the main Power Rank page with all the previous listings, I think. Ayup, this is true. Thanks much. I think it might be a good idea to have more stats shown for the period other than just your writeup and their rank/movement. Maybe add the player's record over the entire month, notable wins and losses, and what leagues the player is currently in. | ||
FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 16 2009 02:46 Geo.Rion wrote: Actually PvP isnt the best MU of the Dragons. I would call it slightly the worst. Bisu and Best are really good at it, Free, Kal struggle, Jangbi is ok, and Stork used to be super-strong but recently he lost to backho and some other losses in PL. Everybody but Stork and Best got very good vZ skills, and even them, mostly Best, are showing results against good zergs. And who has weak vT? Kal maybe? I'd say he's just inconsistent, but... Here's how it breaks down (and I must say that referring to them as 'dragons' is intensely lame ): PvP: Bisu is stronger than anyone Best is strong mechanically but weak mentally Stork is strong, but he's Stork, he plays bad sometimes Jangbi is strong, but this is a recent development Kal is weak free is weak PvT: Bisu is strong Best is strong but inconsistant Stork is strong Jangbi is strong, possible stronger than anyone Kal is inconsistant free is inconsistant PvZ: Bisu is inconsistant Best is learning slowly Stork has solved his problems Jangbi is strooooooooong Kal is potentially the strongest, but still very inconsistant free is inconsistant These are my observations after watching many, many games from every player. | ||
Ideas
United States7944 Posts
3 from khan 2 from SKT 2 from OGN :O | ||
FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 16 2009 02:47 Scamp wrote: Ayup, this is true. Thanks much. I think it might be a good idea to have more stats shown for the period other than just your writeup and their rank/movement. Maybe add the player's record over the entire month, notable wins and losses, and what leagues the player is currently in. I try to keep the information relevant. There's already too many people who go to TLPD and quote statistics before doing anything else. | ||
d_so
Korea (South)3262 Posts
and even though i've been a staunch supporter of leta... #2 is a bit high. and i disagree a bit with your analysis of his gameplay... in this era of 14cc/siege expand, leta's consistent facport build is even a bit unorthodox. still, if anything this power rank was ballsy | ||
raga4ka
Bulgaria5676 Posts
On January 16 2009 02:31 disciple wrote: bisu is known for his pvz because nobody can do the things he can in this MU. His style is unique and great to watch. And btw Bisu has pretty solid records against all the 'dragons' even stork. I'm not excusing bisu's last 4 pvz losses, not at all. Just the comments about 'lol bisu lost in his best MU to 3 noobs' are really pissing me off. His style is unique thats for sure i don't know "the great to watch part " thought, because as a zerg player i hate it when somebody is occuping me with Sairs and DT/reaver and sneaks an other expo without the army to protect it . And by the time i notice it he has already has solid defences / army Thats a zerg mistake , but sometimes i see his expos very vulnerable to an attack and i don't like it . Where Kal's style which i like watching is to gain map control and then take that expo as quickly as possible . Meaning if Bisu fucks up with his harras he would have a hard time gaining map control and protecting his third base . | ||
FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 16 2009 02:51 d_so wrote: this really must have been a hard power rank to do. but still, even though i agree there is no definitive #1... Jangbi?????????? and even though i've been a staunch supporter of leta... #2 is a bit high. and i disagree a bit with your analysis of his gameplay... in this era of 14cc/siege expand, leta's consistent facport build is even a bit unorthodox. still, if anything this power rank was ballsy haha, the play of other people doesn't change what is safe fac port is very, very conservative, much more so than 14cc. | ||
Ideas
United States7944 Posts
On January 16 2009 02:50 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: PvZ: Bisu is inconsistant Best is learning slowly Stork has solved his problems Jangbi is strooooooooong Kal is potentially the strongest, but still very inconsistant free is inconsistant Kal is 9-1 in his last 10. He doesn't play many PvZs, but I think he is pretty much the best PvZer right now (especially with Bisu starting to suck and 2 wins of JD in his last 5). EDIT: but yeah, that 1 lose WAS to Yarnc, so I guess he is a bit inconsistent. | ||
FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 16 2009 02:53 Ideas wrote: Kal is 9-1 in his last 10. He doesn't play many PvZs, but I think he is pretty much the best PvZer right now (especially with Bisu starting to suck and 2 wins of JD in his last 5). EDIT: but yeah, that 1 lose WAS to Yarnc, so I guess he is a bit inconsistent. Yeah. Kal's PvZ is often overlooked. He loses some really dumb games sometimes, but overall I don't think it's a stretch to say his is the best. Jangbi comes close, Bisu is just too shaky these days. edit: thank you for formatting your post better! I was gonna edit my own and fix it and then edit yours, but you did it for me | ||
Djin)ftw(
Germany3357 Posts
On January 16 2009 02:50 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: PvT: Bisu is strong Best is strong but inconsistant Stork is strong Jangbi is strong, possible stronger than anyone Kal is inconsistant free is inconsistant Dunno, I like Jangbis pvt A LOT (the games vs pepe were just awesome), but I seriously doubt that he'd won the BO3 against Flash. | ||
d_so
Korea (South)3262 Posts
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
One day he totally owns every little thing out of his opponents making them look retarded as fuck. Next day he loses like a B-Team amateur But I love him <3 | ||
FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 16 2009 02:56 Djin)ftw( wrote: Dunno, I like Jangbis pvt A LOT (the games vs pepe were just awesome), but I seriously doubt that he'd won the BO3 against Flash. I'd say he has a better chance against Flash than most Protoss. I mean, pepe is a punching bag, so we shouldn't care what happens to him. As much as I love Flash and dislike Jangbi, evidence suggests that Jangbi would take a series against him. | ||
Geo.Rion
7375 Posts
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fanatacist
10319 Posts
EDIT: The person with balls the size of watermelons is not July, it's FakeSteve. You know what I mean. | ||
MrHoon
10183 Posts
On January 16 2009 02:57 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: I'd say he has a better chance against Flash than most Protoss. I mean, pepe is a punching bag, so we shouldn't care what happens to him. As much as I love Flash and dislike Jangbi, evidence suggests that Jangbi would take a series against him. Wasn't there a game where Flash and Jangbi had a 1 hour stalemate and the refs had to call a rematch? Jangbi won in the end if memory serves correctly. But goddamn that was fun. Flash just sat there taping his mousepad while jangbi was rubbing his chin trying to think of what to do. | ||
FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 16 2009 02:59 MrHoon wrote: Wasn't there a game where Flash and Jangbi had a 1 hour stalemate and the refs had to call a rematch? Jangbi won in the end if memory serves correctly. But goddamn that was fun. Flash just sat there taping his mousepad while jangbi was rubbing his chin trying to think of what to do. Yeah, on Blue Storm. Jangbi had a maxed army with like 14 carriers, Flash had a maxed army with a ton of Goliaths. Since Flash only had a few tanks, he couldn't push up into Jangbi's highground, and since even a few tanks are tanks, Jangbi couldn't attackmove into Flash's highground. Flash had built so many turrets all over the map that the match stalemated, both players out of money and neither willing to move across the map from their impenetrable defensive position. | ||
Fwmeh
1286 Posts
On January 16 2009 02:59 MrHoon wrote: Wasn't there a game where Flash and Jangbi had a 1 hour stalemate and the refs had to call a rematch? Jangbi won in the end if memory serves correctly. But goddamn that was fun. Flash just sat there taping his mousepad while jangbi was rubbing his chin trying to think of what to do. Yeah, split map on Blue Storm. I think they are 1-1 overall. | ||
Itachii
Poland12466 Posts
GJ ! | ||
raga4ka
Bulgaria5676 Posts
On January 16 2009 03:12 Itachii wrote: I'd swap Leta with Jangbi for #1 and Yellow for Kal, other then that i fully agree with this ranking^^ GJ ! I would agree with you if Leta didn't lose that Ace match to JangBI and Kal to Yarnc . | ||
Avidkeystamper
United States8551 Posts
My mind is blown. | ||
o[twist]
United States4903 Posts
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 16 2009 03:21 o[twist] wrote: I understand the logic but I have to disagree with this ranking. Bisu performing badly of late does not mean that Jangbi goes back in time and wins the MSL. That MSL final has absolutely nothing to do with this Ranking, though. Keep that in mind. I love having NaDa as a tool for reference here. He's got six titles and he's not top 10 on this rank | ||
NonConGuy
United States416 Posts
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d_so
Korea (South)3262 Posts
1.) Fakesteve's power poll = 1/3 2.) TL Staff internal poll = 1/3 3.) TL community poll = 1/3 Average the three and come up with a top ten. Then everyone can fight to the death | ||
Braintricks
137 Posts
On January 16 2009 04:00 d_so wrote: we should do something like college football: 1.) Fakesteve's power poll = 1/3 2.) TL Staff internal poll = 1/3 3.) TL community poll = 1/3 Average the three and come up with a top ten. Then everyone can fight to the death Boxer would win the TL community poll every time. | ||
d_so
Korea (South)3262 Posts
On January 16 2009 04:03 Braintricks wrote: Boxer would win the TL community poll every time. not true. i've been posting a "top terran player right now!" poll for the last two months and Boxer, though disproportionately high, has yet to come close to winning: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=84174 | ||
FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 16 2009 04:00 d_so wrote: we should do something like college football: 1.) Fakesteve's power poll = 1/3 2.) TL Staff internal poll = 1/3 3.) TL community poll = 1/3 Average the three and come up with a top ten. Then everyone can fight to the death it'd be a pretty inaccurate top 10, then | ||
RinoZerg
Australia130 Posts
This is a good rank. I can't understand the people screaming for Bisu, he crashed out of both leagues! How on earth could you put him number one?! I agree with Steve on Julyzerg. Much as I love watching Tushin crush mediocre Protoss and go guardian/queen on FBH I don't think he's on the rank yet. If he keeps performing in Proleague and smashes his way into the next stage of OSL I think we'll see his face on the rank. | ||
Ichigo1234551
United States649 Posts
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d_so
Korea (South)3262 Posts
On January 16 2009 04:16 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: it'd be a pretty inaccurate top 10, then well, here's what i have to say, and i don't want to belabor the point too long: 1.) Teamliquid is a highly respected site, if not the premier Starcraft site for foreigners. The opinion of TL is thus highly regarded. 2.) TL, though cursed with ignorant/retarded noobs like any other site, has a exceptionally high proportion of intelligent, knowledgeable posters, both in starcraft and irl. 3.) You do a good job, and have been doing so with both the Power Rank and as a moderator on the site for a long time. Because of this, I think your opinion deserves a heavy weight in determining the top 10 players. It's just that, being the American that I am, and having been indoctrinated from an early age in the glory of distributional power and checks and balances, where even the POTUS only holds 1/3 of the power, I think it would be cool to have TL's prestigious power rank be balanced with more opinions yeah, but fuck the community poll. How about: 1.) FakeSteve's power rank: 1/3 2.) TL internal poll: 1/3 3.) TLPD monthly ranking analysis: proleague matches won = 1 point, ace matches = 2, msl/osl/gom matches are scored depending on what round their in... add up the points and have a statistical ranking system --> 1/3 just something to thnk about. if you keep doing the power rank till the day you die, i wouldn't mind cuz it's at least fun to talk about. | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
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4Servy
Netherlands1542 Posts
I personaly would have put kal on 10 simply cause he has by far the best pvz arround and absolutly humiliated jeadong and luxury in proleauge with strong play, hes incositant yes, but I think hes just a better player atm than hwasin is overal. Hwasin had favourble maps for tvz and mind just suxed in their tvt I think. | ||
foeffa
Belgium2115 Posts
On January 16 2009 04:29 Ichigo1234551 wrote: Where is Savior dude CBNC please. Just because he's a beast AND he had his rape-face back today, not even blinking an eye having trashed Bisu. But that's just a fanboy speaking. Great PR, kinda agree on almost everything. I really wonder (and look forward to) what 'll go down in MSL/OSL/all-kill PL and the effect it 'll have on next PR. | ||
FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 16 2009 04:34 d_so wrote: well, here's what i have to say, and i don't want to belabor the point too long: 1.) Teamliquid is a highly respected site, if not the premier Starcraft site for foreigners. The opinion of TL is thus highly regarded. 2.) TL, though cursed with ignorant/retarded noobs like any other site, has a exceptionally high proportion of intelligent, knowledgeable posters, both in starcraft and irl. 3.) You do a good job, and have been doing so with both the Power Rank and as a moderator on the site for a long time. Because of this, I think your opinion deserves a heavy weight in determining the top 10 players. It's just that, being the American that I am, and having been indoctrinated from an early age in the glory of distributional power and checks and balances, where even the POTUS only holds 1/3 of the power, I think it would be cool to have TL's prestigious power rank be balanced with more opinions yeah, but fuck the community poll. How about: 1.) FakeSteve's power rank: 1/3 2.) TL internal poll: 1/3 3.) TLPD monthly ranking analysis: proleague matches won = 1 point, ace matches = 2, msl/osl/gom matches are scored depending on what round their in... add up the points and have a statistical ranking system --> 1/3 just something to thnk about. if you keep doing the power rank till the day you die, i wouldn't mind cuz it's at least fun to talk about. Yeah, I'm just talking shit because I can Though while we're talking about hypothetical situations, I don't think a mathematical system that weighs performances like a fantasy pool would really benefit the Power Rank. It's already easy enough to cruise TLPD for stats | ||
InfeSteD
United States4658 Posts
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Scamp
United States1086 Posts
On January 16 2009 04:00 d_so wrote: we should do something like college football: 1.) Fakesteve's power poll = 1/3 2.) TL Staff internal poll = 1/3 3.) TL community poll = 1/3 Average the three and come up with a top ten. Then everyone can fight to the death While the accuracy of such a system would come into question, I actually think this could be a fun and interesting thing to try. | ||
Fwmeh
1286 Posts
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samachking
Bahrain4949 Posts
On January 16 2009 05:17 Fwmeh wrote: But with regards of Jangbi's PvT. What I think sets him over other incredible PvTers such as Best is his versatility. Best plays the fast arbiter style close to perfection on macro maps. But even then, there are counters to it, and it does not suit all maps. Who remembers Best using any other style of PvT really well? Jangbi otoh has no really set style in PvT. He can go heavy macro mode one game. He can open with very aggressive reaver harass another game (I adore his reaver/shuttle micro). He plays carrier when appropriate. He can play templar heavy. His PvT is really varied, and he is very strong with all those styles. That is why I think that his PvT is (potentially) the best. Being versatile is Stork's best point in PvT and I think he tops Jangbi in that. What makes Jangbi's PvT so amazing is his army control and his ability to stasis things perfectly and keep his temps alive and storm the shit out of the late game terran army during battles, just watch his replays or his game vs nada on Othello or his game vs Pepe on Medusa. His storms are amazing giving him the nickname thunder god. He is certainly versatile, but his army control and his amazing storms sets his PvT apart from the rest of the dragons. Also Jangbi and Stork go obs heavy which is better than Bisu and Best's low obs count style which is slightly vulnerable to heavy vult users like Mind and Skyhigh. Obs heavy helps scouting alot and helps time flanks and breaks perfectly, Jangbi's PvT is sick and great to watch. | ||
Fwmeh
1286 Posts
On January 16 2009 05:26 samachking wrote: Being versatile is Stork's best point in PvT and I think he tops Jangbi in that. What makes Jangbi's PvT so amazing is his army control and his ability to stasis things perfectly and keep his temps alive and storm the shit out of the late game terran army during battles, just watch his replays or his game vs nada on Othello or his game vs Pepe on Medusa. His storms are amazing giving him the nickname thunder god. He is certainly versatile, but his army control and his amazing storms sets his PvT apart from the rest of the dragons. Also Jangbi and Stork go obs heavy which is better than Bisu and Best's low obs count style which is slightly vulnerable to heavy vult users like Mind and Skyhigh. Obs heavy helps scouting alot and helps time flanks and breaks perfectly, Jangbi's PvT is sick and great to watch. Yeah, Stork might be more versatile than Jangbi, but I think Jangbi has better mechanics while being almost as "smart" PvT as Stork. His storms are incredible, but so is his reaver play. | ||
imperfect
Canada1652 Posts
not even discuss really, there's 1 thing that i wanted to say and it is What the hell, Bisu? So Bisu, what the hell? Seriously, what the hell Bisu? | ||
Sprite
United States1015 Posts
I for one like it because it will cause more pr drama which is fun to read. Good job FakeSteve! | ||
Frits
11782 Posts
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klizzer
517 Posts
Where's Up? I'd like to point out that UpMagiC has been doing a bit better than Yarnc. He certainly deserves a top 10 place, or at least a CNBC, as he's beasted the Proleague recently and qualified for both leagues. IMHO, Up > both Yarnc and Hwasin (marginally better). I think #5 for Bisu is justified, karma got him. Seriously, to get eliminated by a slumping sAviOr and ZerO in a group he chose himself? Too cocky and stupid. I'd wonder where could Fantasy go, but he didn't play anything besides his sloppy games in proleague recently, so... yet, he's also in both leagues. Also, skyhigh, I thought his play against BeSt was really sexy, definitely something to look out for. One final word: FAKESTEVE's POWER RANK OWNS! Overall, it was very well chosen. | ||
CDRdude
United States5625 Posts
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Eternity241
Australia342 Posts
On January 16 2009 06:33 CDRdude wrote: Did Bisu really play all that badly in his MSL games last night? I'm no expert, but I thought he was playing pretty well, just his opponents were playing better. He hasn't really looked all that bad to me, although I haven't seen his OSL games. It seemed to me like Bisu was just relying on how good his PvZ is and didn't practise for it that much. Maybe he was dedicating his practice time to PvT for skyhigh? But honestly it doesn't justify getting out of both leagues with ZERGS AS HIS OPPONENTS. His decision making in the game vs Zero was horrible, deciding to suicide some eight zealots instead of defending. For all I know right now, Bisu needs to get himself back on track in his PvZ. His PvT will be tested soon and that will be a good measure as to whether Bisu's being sent into a slump. Good PR, imo I would replace Yarnc with Effort, as yarnc's 4-0 of his group was partly because his opponents were hardly any that you could call good, not to take anything away from him. | ||
FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 16 2009 07:17 Eternity241 wrote: It seemed to me like Bisu was just relying on how good his PvZ is and didn't practise for it that much. Maybe he was dedicating his practice time to PvT for skyhigh? But honestly it doesn't justify getting out of both leagues with ZERGS AS HIS OPPONENTS. His decision making in the game vs Zero was horrible, deciding to suicide some eight zealots instead of defending. For all I know right now, Bisu needs to get himself back on track in his PvZ. His PvT will be tested soon and that will be a good measure as to whether Bisu's being sent into a slump. Good PR, imo I would replace Yarnc with Effort, as yarnc's 4-0 of his group was partly because his opponents were hardly any that you could call good, not to take anything away from him. Yeah, his opponents were awful. But he caved their heads in. Yarnc is an odd character. On an off day, he'd lose to those two. On a good day, they have a snowball's chance in hell. He's either one of the best Zergs around, or a complete newb, and it fluctuates regularily. Luxury is the same way. | ||
imperfect
Canada1652 Posts
especially yellow. remember his game on hitchhiker vs oov? omfg T-T but yeah, he's never consistant. and his zvp sucks. | ||
Polar_Bear
Germany55 Posts
I think Leta's placement is only about scores, look at the players on the PR and tell me who of them he beat within the last 3 month? ... yeah 1! the "big" Hwasin... aka "the insurance terran", scouts anyone!? Leta has got an incredible win-rate vs. B- and C-players, but hasn't shown anything good vs. the top players yet. Dropping Bisu to 5... let's forget about what he did to Flash, let's forget who's the current ELO-#1, let's forget who has the best PL win rate of all players (against better opponents than Leta)... let's don't care about that shit, the thing which counts is dropping a total of 4 games vs. hypermotivated players on the worst PvZ-maps ever... yeah, that's the good stuff why is Best #7? ok, he lost to Skyhigh who played HUGE!!! how did the "#1" get into the GOM-semifinals? Backho broke his back... he would have doomed him anyway.. he's the number 1!! who did play better? Upmagic or Hwasin? July or Yellow? at least Upmagic >>>> Hwasin is pretty obvious I think putting Leta on #2 might be justified by giving him every possible benefit of the doubt (which normally isn't done), the rest seems just... weird!? | ||
d_so
Korea (South)3262 Posts
On January 16 2009 07:40 Polar_Bear wrote: no offense to anyone, but this PR seems to be a little bit ... ironic!? I think Leta's placement is only about scores, look at the players on the PR and tell me who of them he beat within the last 3 month? ... yeah 1! the "big" Hwasin... aka "the insurance terran", scouts anyone!? Leta has got an incredible win-rate vs. B- and C-players, but hasn't shown anything good vs. the top players yet. Dropping Bisu to 5... let's forget about what he did to Flash, let's forget who's the current ELO-#1, let's forget who has the best PL win rate of all players (against better opponents than Leta)... let's don't care about that shit, the thing which counts is dropping a total of 4 games vs. hypermotivated players on the worst PvZ-maps ever... yeah, that's the good stuff why is Best #7? ok, he lost to Skyhigh who played HUGE!!! how did the "#1" get into the GOM-semifinals? Backho broke his back... he would have doomed him anyway.. he's the number 1!! who did play better? Upmagic or Hwasin? July or Yellow? at least Upmagic >>>> Hwasin is pretty obvious I think putting Leta on #2 might be justified by giving him every possible benefit of the doubt (which normally isn't done), the rest seems just... weird!? honestly if backho had beaten jangbi i think half of TL would go gay and trek to Korea | ||
Eternity241
Australia342 Posts
On January 16 2009 07:40 Polar_Bear wrote: no offense to anyone, but this PR seems to be a little bit ... ironic!? I think Leta's placement is only about scores, look at the players on the PR and tell me who of them he beat within the last 3 month? ... yeah 1! the "big" Hwasin... aka "the insurance terran", scouts anyone!? Leta has got an incredible win-rate vs. B- and C-players, but hasn't shown anything good vs. the top players yet. Dropping Bisu to 5... let's forget about what he did to Flash, let's forget who's the current ELO-#1, let's forget who has the best PL win rate of all players (against better opponents than Leta)... let's don't care about that shit, the thing which counts is dropping a total of 4 games vs. hypermotivated players on the worst PvZ-maps ever... yeah, that's the good stuff why is Best #7? ok, he lost to Skyhigh who played HUGE!!! how did the "#1" get into the GOM-semifinals? Backho broke his back... he would have doomed him anyway.. he's the number 1!! who did play better? Upmagic or Hwasin? July or Yellow? at least Upmagic >>>> Hwasin is pretty obvious I think putting Leta on #2 might be justified by giving him every possible benefit of the doubt (which normally isn't done), the rest seems just... weird!? I think Leta's on 2 because of his current form. He's raping everyone he's playing in all his games, and as FS said, everyone else around him plays shitty on some days (I'm looking at you bisu). I don't think TOO much attention should be put on Bisu being 5, because after his losses in msl/osl, I would say that he's at about the same playing level as Jaedong and Stork now. It comes back to Leta being on 2, simply because everyone else around him (save jangbi) are playing sloppily and shakily. Jangbi would've raped backho either way even if Backho didn't get his back injured. | ||
Fontong
United States6454 Posts
On January 16 2009 07:51 Eternity241 wrote: Jangbi would've raped backho either way even if Backho didn't get his back injured. Backho shits all over predictions. I really wish Jangbi hadn't gotten a free ticket to play free in the semifinals... | ||
Amarxist
United States371 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Kal is showing that he desperately wants to be something more than an average, second-rate protoss. He's made the semifinal of the current MSL in convincing fashion, so now my unfair hatred has a new target. FUCK YOU, JANGBI. YOU SUCK. | ||
noddyz
United Kingdom462 Posts
Surely the possible revoloution of ZvT, with a unit we never dreamed could used effectivly, is at least worth a mentionin the PR? | ||
QuietIdiot
7004 Posts
On January 16 2009 02:46 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: Wait, you mean the zerg from Samsung? Formerly known as Hades? Why? I'll grant you he has some strong ZvZ, but nothing else I've seen has made me think he has any sort of league success in his future. Can you point out some recent games that make you think he's worth mentioning? I'm sure I haven't seen all of them, cuz he's played almost nothing but scrubs. O fuck me, I meant by.hero He's looking quite strong as of late, by.great is sub-par, yes. | ||
d_so
Korea (South)3262 Posts
On January 16 2009 08:15 noddyz wrote: I dont know about Jaedong at 4. Everything you said about him is true but since the last PR Jaedong did something far more important than winning games. He used Queens. Not only used them in fact, but abused them to the point where M&M play is now in question. I watched those games vs fantasy, skyhigh and hwsain, and they made more excited than i'd ever been about starcraft. It was amazing. Surely the possible revoloution of ZvT, with a unit we never dreamed could used effectivly, is at least worth a mentionin the PR? too many people were shitting on queens for too many years for there to be an open acknowledgment of Jaedong's queens. i think those that have been particularly vocal against this "theorycraft" are hoping it will pass away like a fad | ||
Jonoman92
United States9090 Posts
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darkemperor
Turkey725 Posts
Because what is the reason behind Jangbi's 1st spot ? #2 Leta deserves more than Jangbi. Also Flash lost fucking 3 game to Bisu and he is at spot 3 Aaaand Jaedong is nowhere in GOM yet he is still ahead of Bisu Last of all why the hell Bisu is # 5 ? Ok he is eliminated both from MSL and OSL but he reached the 3rd ELO of all time this month and defeated Flash 3 times , yet he is in rank 5. So wrong Fakesteve so wrong | ||
OneOther
United States10774 Posts
thank you for your work steve | ||
SoMuchBetter
Australia10606 Posts
plus jangbi rules. there should be a jangbi highlight video, a full 10 minute clip of him busting up tank pushes and storming the fuck out of everyone | ||
FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 16 2009 08:25 darkemperor wrote: Don't take it personally Fakesteve but this month's PR is shit I think. Because what is the reason behind Jangbi's 1st spot ? #2 Leta deserves more than Jangbi. Also Flash lost fucking 3 game to Bisu and he is at spot 3 Aaaand Jaedong is nowhere in GOM yet he is still ahead of Bisu Last of all why the hell Bisu is # 5 ? Ok he is eliminated both from MSL and OSL but he reached the 3rd ELO of all time this month and defeated Flash 3 times , yet he is in rank 5. So wrong Fakesteve so wrong ....did you read what was written? It answers a lot of questons | ||
arb
Noobville17915 Posts
On January 16 2009 02:27 MrHoon wrote: I don't understand. First people say putting 3 zergs into his MSL group is a smart idea since PvZ is his best and JD/FBH/FL fans should stop bitching. And now when he loses you all say PvZ is not his best MU. Seriously. That is how i feel when Jaedong loses and people complain he isnt playing at his best. Mediocre powerrank at best Imo EDIT : We all know Backho would have beat Jangbi. Damn back..backho T_T | ||
thunk
United States6233 Posts
So what happens when Leta continues to play well, and the rest of the field don't live up to their names? Leta passes them all by. It doesn't matter how safe and standard Leta plays, considering how well he does it. While it may not be enough to win a title (which is pure speculation right now, we shall see what happens), it's certainly enough that if the top players (who are at least more experienced and in some cases exceptionally strong in series play) don't play like top players, Leta deserves the rank more Honestly, none of the players out there look like they're clear favorites for a title. Alternatively, all of the players have a shot at a title, that includes Leta. You need a CNBC, because there are so many players that almost deserve it, which is the very thing that made this PR tough. Free is almost in a better position than Bisu, he's in a semifinal match in GOM, ok in Proleague, has exactly the same chance as Bisu right now winning the OSL, and is at least still in the MSL. He may not have looked as strong as Jangbi but IIRC he's been playing tougher opponents. Backho deserves a CNBC; he's in the OSL and perhaps would have beaten Jangbi (I'm like 75% sure he would've beaten Jangbi, but who knows now). Too bad he can't sit up anymore. | ||
KwarK
United States40729 Posts
Oh, and BACKHOOOO !!!! | ||
KwarK
United States40729 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + God I love the BackHo fandom on tl. The enduring rumour that he's somehow really good. It's like supporting a local football team, even though they always lose. | ||
FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
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strongwind
United States862 Posts
don't get me wrong, I love Jangbi, but man this is depressing. Bisu come back... | ||
SoMuchBetter
Australia10606 Posts
backho is a living monument to mediocrity | ||
n.DieJokes
United States3443 Posts
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thunk
United States6233 Posts
The same logic that places Jangbi over Bisu, Flash and Jaedong should similarly allow for Backho to at least make PR. On any given day Jangbi can beat Backho, I can believe that. But on any given day Bisu, Flash and Jaedong should mop the floor with Jangbi's body, so it is clear that results in leagues (which Backho had a lot of before he broke his back) is more important than who beats who 75% of the time. It's unfair to say that Jangbi would have beaten Backho in GOM. 15 days ago #1 would have gone to Bisu because he's facing off a bunch of Zergs to get his place in the OSL and the MSL. | ||
IrrasO
United States408 Posts
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 16 2009 09:44 thunk wrote: From a purely results based point of view, which is what got Jangbi to first (and throwing out GOM), Backho is in the OSL (qualified in the Ro16) while Jangbi has yet to make it out of MSL's Ro32. From FS' results-based criterion that he used, Backho could arguably be more accomplished than Jangbi. I say arguably because I did not fact in PL performance, which Backho is really, really bad at. Once you factor in PL performance and ignore the results of Gom, Jangbi should probably be ranked higher than Backho; I am simply making the case that just off of results, Backho should make PR. The same logic that places Jangbi over Bisu, Flash and Jaedong should similarly allow for Backho to at least make PR. On any given day Jangbi can beat Backho, I can believe that. But on any given day Bisu, Flash and Jaedong should mop the floor with Jangbi's body, so it is clear that results in leagues (which Backho had a lot of before he broke his back) is more important than who beats who 75% of the time. It's unfair to say that Jangbi would have beaten Backho in GOM. 15 days ago #1 would have gone to Bisu because he's facing off a bunch of Zergs to get his place in the OSL and the MSL. It IS fair, because BackHo is FUCKING TERRIBLE. People don't seem to understand this. As long as ANYONE has supported BackHo, he has continued to lose over half of his games. He plays BAD. Jangbi would have destroyed him. I say this with unwavering certainty, and I know what I'm talking about. As for the rest of your post, if you think Flash or Jaedong 'should mop the floor with Jangbi', you are not qualified to talk about who is or isn't good at StarCraft. There's so much wrong with your post I don't know how to accurately express it. | ||
FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
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rA.Hippie
Denmark714 Posts
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KwarK
United States40729 Posts
I don't maintain this because I'm ignorant. I maintain it because it's a fun pretence. | ||
KwarK
United States40729 Posts
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thunk
United States6233 Posts
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Ver
United States2186 Posts
You know, I hadn't watched that many of Leta's matches, just enough to see that he didn't do anything special. I fully agreed with your conclusion of his safe & standard play; in my eyes he was just a Terran version of Best. Very solid player but not smart, and thus not capable of going far in leagues without some very favorable brackets. Then I watched Jangbi vs Leta. Sure Jangbi played nicely with some speed shuttle reaver harass. He took expansions properly, defended against the possible 2 fact properly. Nothing special, just solid Jangbi play on a map that really favors P (Dest). But Leta? You suck TvP. I'm sorry but 2 fact into CC is a beyond terrible idea when you know the enemy is going robo (the only purpose in doing so is to trick them into delaying their expansions but the fast obs would render this moot), and that defense against the reavers was pathetic. A slightly improved FBH oh boy? To have him ranked higher than Flash is an absolute insult towards the one person who is holding the Terran race together against this onslaught of imbalanced maps and great Protoss players. When you compare Bisu/Flash on Dest vs Jangbi/Leta, the level of play for both players is just at a completely different scale. Jangbi is solid. Top 5 player certainly. But I can take your argument for putting Jangbi at #1 and change his name with Flash and it fits even better, with the exception that Flash showed an incredibly high level of play against Bisu playing the PvT of his life while Jangbi has been playing like Jangbi does, very solid with nothing special shown. No Protoss has played that well against Flash, EVER (in Jangbi's draw vs Flash on Blue Storm due to some cheese or another Flash got incredibly far behind but he made some genius moves to come back against Jangbi's uninspired play). This series was so sick that I'm writing an FE on it. Taking games from December onwards: Let's go over Jangbi's list: Wins vs: Jaehoon, pepe (2x), Really, Hwasin, Zero, kal, leta Losses vs: Shine[kal], effort, fantasy Flash's list: Wins vs: chalrenge, guemchi, rock (2x), movie, jaehoon, magma (2x), casy, anytime, hyvaa, pure, effort, bisu Losses vs: Horang2, Jaedong, Stork, Bisu (3x) Neither player has any really notable wins aside from Flash taking one game off of Bisu and I suppose his win vs Effort (whereas Jangbi lost). As I said Leta played like a noob that game and Zero/Kal are inconsistent at best vP. The only difference was that Flash lost 5 times vs 3 of the absolute best players along with a random loss to double proxy gate dt. Against Jaedong/Stork Flash played pretty poorly no question. Against Bisu however Flash played EXTRMELY well in the GOM series and pretty decently (better than any other Terran but still not at his best level) in the proleague match. And keep in mind that these maps were ridiculously in favor of P. Medusa is possibly the worst TvP map ever (5-24 without Flash as he defies imbalance), Destination is very P favored, while Autumn Wind favors P a lot midgame and T a lot lategame. Jangbi on the other hand lost in a pretty poor manner to a mediocre Fantasy on a somewhat Protoss favored map. Vs Effort he played pretty well (solid, as always) but his suicidal attack on Effort's second nat cost him big time. His harassment was excellent but his army composition and battles were rather poor, thus losing him a lot of units needlessly. A reasonably strong performance overall. His other loss was due to a ling runby vs some noname that he easily could have prevented. How can you say this is more consistent than Flash? Even ignoring the series against Bisu, Flash has beaten (slightly) better opponents while losing to MUCH better ones. Jangbi on the other hand has zero big time wins (I don't think proving how terrible Leta is TvP counts?). Leta is doing the same thing except he's not as far in a tourney, has played zero top 10 players aside from Jangbi (who he got raped by), and has never shown exceptional play, just very strong standard stuff against mediocre competition and BAD play against good competition. His play against Mind was decent and wasn't terrible against Skyhigh but these guys are not even that amazing currently (Free just looked awful in that game although Leta did play properly no qualms there). Top 5 looks fine for him. #2? That's a joke. Summary: Flash has a comparable record to Jangbi/Leta, however his losses are to much stronger players and his play in 4 games against Bisu is absolutely incomparable to anyone other than...Bisu himself. Solid/standard players who have not shown any distinguished play should NEVER EVER be #1 without a title. There are valid arguments for ranking Bisu at any different point in the top 5. I personally would've put him at 2 and Jaedong in the other one with Flash at a somewhat undeserved 1. However, no matter who it is, whoever gets that #1 spot is going to be somewhat undeserved because up until last night Bisu did have it without question. It's honestly a really hard question to solve and your answer is likely as good as mine: what do you do with a guy who for a bunch of games played at bonjwa level and then really sucked it up in another bunch? Jangbi/Leta have done little to prove themselves against world class competition and have done nothing major in tournaments (And you absolutely cannot argue that Jangbi is still in GOM while Flash isn't because this is 100% brackets). You cannot say that because aside from his games vs the world's best current PvT'er, Flash has lost 3 times as has Jangbi. Except double proxygate DT, Stork, and Jaedong, are much more serious competition (and more acceptable losses even though Flash didn't play as well) than some noname ling runby, Fantasy, and Effort. I didn't argue Jaedong's case because this is already long enough but him actually innovating something in ZvT is definitely a big step forward for both himself and the Zerg race and I consider this (and the results produced from it) a lot more important than again, solid and standard play from some proleague-only guy who plays bad people and another consistently good guy who gets lucky brackets every single tournament. | ||
KwarK
United States40729 Posts
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SerpentFlame
400 Posts
To be consistent, if Leta is on the power rank for exhibiting a solid safe style of play that carries numerous Proleague wins, let's not forget that in the opening of last proleague season when he was beginning to amass wins (and playing at roughly the same excellent quality as he is now), Leta also dropped a longer game to BackHo, proving that losing to BackHo while BackHo is displaying a rare show of solid form shouldn't be considered a major setback. | ||
Malinor
Germany4700 Posts
Regarding the Top 5 (and I absolutely don't care about 6-10, wouldn't rank them anyway) I just think you have been too strict with Bisu. He should be third in my opinion, he is at least in GOM and Flash+JD are not that awesome right now. So my ranking would have been: 1.Jangbi 2.Leta 3.Bisu 4.Jaedong 5.Flash (I think JD is doing slightly better because he actually is able to beat top players regularly, Flash is not right now) | ||
FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 16 2009 10:07 Ver wrote: a well-written, informed post Thanks for the comments Ver, some great feedback from you. I think our overall view of the recent games Flash, Jangbi, and Leta have played is a little different. First, Leta: While it's definitely true Leta is safe & standard, I think you're discrediting him too much. Leta's biggest attribute is his ability to make the correct decision in any given situation. Right now, he is playing what I'd call the 'smartest' StarCraft of any pro. Over any given sample of games, any player will make good decisions and bad decisions. The strength of Leta's play is that he makes the right decision almost without fail, which is exceedingly rare even among the cream of the crop in ProGaming. There's a lot more to Leta's game than build orders, I mean. You should watch a few more of his matches. While in many games between a top player and a lesser player slight leads can change hands several times over the course of the match, Leta holds a death grip on even the smallest advantage and rides it to a win. I think you should check out a larger sample size of his games, because the control over how a match progresses that he displays is unparalleled right now. Granted, his placement is more a product of other players underperforming, but he really does have a skillset that sets him apart from most players. Leta also gets a little extra credit for being a rookie, but carrying an exceedingly heavy workload with no dip in consistancy. He plays very well in almost every match he is given. The game against Jangbi was tough, and is a large part of why I'm skeptical that Leta will succeed in a series against another top player. However, with recent events, those players have been punished this month. That, coupled with the manner in which Leta wins games (something very, very few players are even capable of - remember, this is how Savior used to win) puts him above the rest of the field this month. If only for this month, we'll just have to wait and see. I don't think anyone could argue that Leta in an upcoming semifinal is too unlikely. Flash: I may be a little harder on Flash than is necessary. This is because I know what he is capable of, and I can tell when he is not living up to that potential. The series against Bisu, which was fantastic, are the only three games Flash has played recently that displayed any semblance of the mastery to which we are accustomed. More important than his opponents is how well Flash himself plays Teran during those matches, and the average game from Flash has been of a lower level of play than the average game from Leta recently. This is tied to the fact that I think you're being overly harsh on Leta. I don't think there's any question that Flash is capable of playing at a level we have never seen Leta play at, but he hasn't been delivering games at that level. Yes, Flash vs Bisu was incredible, but that's one series in a large pool of games that need to be considered. Flash can and should be playing close to that level constantly, because at this point in ProGaming where no title besides GOM is up for grabs, all we can guage placement with is analyzation of the matches these players play, regardless of the opponent. Like I said, maybe I'm too hard on Flash. Maybe I expect too much. That doesn't change my view that his average level of play is lower recently than it should be. When a top player plays against some scrub in ProLeague, we can't put much stock in the name value of the opponent. That forces us to focus on the actions taken by that top player during those games, and Flash's have simply been average. Put simply, the way Flash has been playing, #3 would be completely undeserved if that series vs Bisu had never happened. It did, and he played well, that's why he's at #3. Nothing else he's done lately has been affirmation that he's the world's best Terran, as Leta outshines him again and again. I had to watch an awful lot of games more than once to reach this conclusion, though. Jangbi: As is written in the Rank, Jangbi's placement is merely a product of unsuitable alternatives. I agree, he should have been able to stop Shine's ling runby. Thats something I can't stand Protoss players losing to. Alas, no Protoss is perfect, and those losses happen pretty frequently. Jangbi certainly isn't the only victim. How many hydra breaks do we see against FE that could be easily prevented with proper scouting? As I've said, the average level of Flash's play has dropped recently, despite the games ending in a victory. Jangbi's haven't. Last month he was top 5, a spot earned through solid play. Jangbi pulls more miracles out of his ass in PvT than any other Protoss, his PvZ is incredibly dangerous, and his PvP has settled into a strong rhythm. From reading your post, I get the impression that you're severely underestimating Jangbi's skill level. Bisu would have been #1, yes. Let's face the reality that in two matchups, Jangbi is at worst Bisu's equal, despite the fact that he doesn't really do anything another Protoss hasn't done before him. So, with Jangbi's recent games against the host of scrubs every top player is forced to play every month displaying the same level of skill that landed him in the top 5 last month, where is the justification for any other player to replace him at the top? Flash's level of play has dropped, Stork is playing like steaming ass, Bisu flopped in both majors, Jaedong has been scraping by (for the record, I thought his game against Flash was a little ugly on both sides - this from a guy who is a big fan of those two players above any others on the Rank this month).. where does that leave us? I wouldn't say Jangbi is more skilled than Flash or Bisu, but I definitely maintain that he has played at a higher level these past weeks, even if only because the rest have played worse than usual. Playing better is playing better, plain and simple. I think it's pretty unreasonable calling Leta a 'slightly improved FBH', as well. His TvP is better than you think. It's incredibly hard to play TvP the way Leta does, but he does it very well. Hell, he killed free just a couple of days ago, a Protoss who is enjoying something of a revival in PvT. To summarize, I really think you're underestimating the skill levels of Leta and Jangbi, particularily relative to the performances of other players recently. It isn't fair to say that Leta "can't beat top players", because that simply isn't true. Granted, we don't exactly have a lot of info to go on, but from watching his games and comparing them to the games Flash has played, there are major facets in every matchup that Leta is outperforming other Terrans in. While this is largely a result of Flash's recent complacency on the battlefield, there's no reason to place Leta below Flash just because Flash can play better. He must play better, and he really hasnt. If you disagree with me on these points, then we are essentially at a standstill. I've got a lot of respect for you, so please don't think that means I'm dismissing what you say. At the end of the day I have to trust my ability to analyze two games by two players and compare the skill level displayed in each. It's worked pretty well for me so far, and this month it says Leta is playing better. You'll hear no argument from me that Flash isn't more talented, but performance must be king. | ||
FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 16 2009 10:58 SerpentFlame wrote: I disagree with the reasoning that Stork is being placed low (though he has been shaky in the last month) because he lost to BackHo. BackHo is terrible yes, but BackHo can (rarely) play excellently (let's not forget the MSL/OSL run from Spring 08), though BackHo almost always plays like a B-Class gamer (losing to Chalrenge, TT, etc.) I'm not trying to say that BackHo is actually good, merely that he can bring out an awesome game every now and then amidst an ocean of mediocrity, and that he brought out two of them against Stork. As thus, that set shouldn't count as a real blow against Stork's ranking. To be consistent, if Leta is on the power rank for exhibiting a solid safe style of play that carries numerous Proleague wins, let's not forget that in the opening of last proleague season when he was beginning to amass wins (and playing at roughly the same excellent quality as he is now), Leta also dropped a longer game to BackHo, proving that losing to BackHo while BackHo is displaying a rare show of solid form shouldn't be considered a major setback. Backho does play well on occasion, that is true. It's rare, but it does happen. That doesn't change the fact that BackHo really didn't play well against Stork. Stork just happened to play even worse. It was an ugly, ugly series full of amateur mistakes on both sides. | ||
Rice
United States1332 Posts
put july as CBNC!!! | ||
SerpentFlame
400 Posts
On January 16 2009 11:39 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: That doesn't change the fact that BackHo really didn't play well against Stork. Stork just happened to play even worse. It was an ugly, ugly series full of amateur mistakes on both sides. There were some gaping holes in Stork's and Backho's play in game 1(and a few in game 2 as well), including some crucial dragoon formation mistakes by Stork and a total lack of micro at one battle by BackHo (not that it mattered at that point), but as far as the (untrained) eye of mine could tell, set 3 didn't contain any ugly errors by either side that any other top-class gamer wouldn't make. I'd be eager to hear about the mistakes made in game 3 of that set, if someone could enlighten me. Additionally, what happened to the CBNC section? Is that still going to be in existance? | ||
jodogohoo
Canada2533 Posts
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AzureEye
United States1360 Posts
On January 16 2009 03:37 NonConGuy wrote: YES Jangbi definitely deserves the #1 spot. Hate to see Stork drop that much, but hes not doing well at all. Coming from a Khan fan lol. On the subject of Kal, I agree that he is somewhat tied with Bisu for the spot of best PvZ now, since Bisu's PvZ has started becoming inconsistent. Kal's PvZ style is definately different from Bisu; Bisu relies more on defense combined with constant harrass while Kal is more likely to end it mid game with his huge army. I actually agree with Ver with a lot of stuff he said, and Jangbi getting a free ticket over Backho is somewhat disappointing. As others mentioned out, Backho does create upsets once in a while, and if I had money to bet on between Backho and Jangbi at this point, I would have bet on Jangbi even though I know that Backho's PvP is his best MU. That being said, I think that Backho did have a chance to beat Jangbi, even if it wasn't likely. This free ticket gives Jangbi more time to study Free's PvP style over Backho's, which will really make me sad if Jangbi manages to triumph gom finals, because I feel that it is little undeserved. Steve release next PR earlier next time so we can see Jangbi drop down from the #1 slot, since I'm betting that he'll lose to Bisu in finals | ||
MoRe_mInErAls
Canada1210 Posts
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Jaeden
Romania1489 Posts
JD is stronger than Janggi(i`m not sayin` he should get #1) but oh well...u referred to JD's last 10 games to compare it with Jangbi...however since the last PR JD is 12-4 not 6-4, oh well, I guess I can`t agree with all the PRs also Leta is too high imo, again if JD couldn`t jump from #8 to top3, than why should leta jump from nowhere to #2 ?! I agree that bisu doesn`t deserve #1, as a matter o`fact no one does, but neither does JANGBI one thing I agree about is Hwasin on the PR oh and yeah, I COMPLETELY agree with Ver, very good post man! | ||
Jaeden
Romania1489 Posts
On January 16 2009 16:12 Jaeden wrote: oh and yeah, I COMPLETELY agree with Ver, very good post man! if Ver would've compared JangBi to Jaedong, well...: Jaedong: -his lost to zero...it's ZvZ, we all know JD is the god of ZvZ, it`s just that BO, and etc...we all know what can happen` there -win over Effort..despite Effort's great stats and potential, I`m not goin` to give JD a whole lot of credit for that, it`s ZvZ he simply owns there -loss against UpMagic...well FS, I REALLY hope u`ve seen that game -hyvaa, keke, blabla easy wins -MSL survivor, some great games there + the fact that JD was very unlucky, I think we all realise what would`ve been the outcome of that game if that mine there didn`t hit. -win over Hwasin...again FS, I hope u`ve seen that amazing game -same with the win over Bisu -Kal...yep, this is the thumbs-down for Jaedong -Fantasy, great things happened in that match, queens worked wonders -Anytime, Shine, Clay, people that are easy wins, I don`t give credit for them, neither should Jangbi get any credit for beating this kind of opponents -And finally his win over flash, I think that JD was VERY well-prepared for that match, and simply run-over flash ->his games with FBH and Sea were counted for the last PR in case u are wondering why I don`t count them 12-4 ok and now for JangBi: -He only played PL games, no SL for this guy, just GOM in which he beat Pepe, cool -Win over Jaehoon... -Lost to shine[kal]... -Wins over really hwasin, Zero, and Leta yes this is pretty good, however JD won against Bisu, Hwasin and Flash, who is more impresive ?! -than a lost to Fantasy that shouldn`t happen, really, it shouldn`t, considering Jangbi's PvT(i`m not gonna point out that JD won against him, oh wait, I did ) -his win over Kal...Kal is weak vs P -and again, I`m not counting jangbi's lost to Effort since that was involved in the last PR 8-2 I think it`s enough ,but yeah, JD's case is pretty clear, even Flash has a better case than JangBi again I`m not sayin` JD #1 !!!..I would be fine with something like: #1 Flash #2,3 Bisu/JD edit: it`s not only statistic here, I actually watched the games oh and sorry for spelling, I made this post pretty fast, coz I`m in a hurry | ||
MrHoon
10183 Posts
On January 16 2009 10:07 Ver wrote: I agree this month is bizarre and messed up. The only one that even comes close to how much chaos it has caused is back in july when ForGG suddenly turned amazing overnight. Yes it is fair enough to hit Bisu down a couple of notches for getting knocked out of two leagues (Savior and Zero did play well even though Bisu's play was uninspired. Losing to by.hero is simply unacceptable though). There could be arguments for putting Bisu anywhere in the top 5 and I'd accept them, as in the same month he played like a noob and like a god. However, ranking Jangbi and Leta over Flash (and possibly Jaedong) is total garbage. I respect your analysis a lot FS but this month the logic doesn't hold at all on the top 3-4. You know, I hadn't watched that many of Leta's matches, just enough to see that he didn't do anything special. I fully agreed with your conclusion of his safe & standard play; in my eyes he was just a Terran version of Best. Very solid player but not smart, and thus not capable of going far in leagues without some very favorable brackets. Then I watched Jangbi vs Leta. Sure Jangbi played nicely with some speed shuttle reaver harass. He took expansions properly, defended against the possible 2 fact properly. Nothing special, just solid Jangbi play on a map that really favors P (Dest). But Leta? You suck TvP. I'm sorry but 2 fact into CC is a beyond terrible idea when you know the enemy is going robo (the only purpose in doing so is to trick them into delaying their expansions but the fast obs would render this moot), and that defense against the reavers was pathetic. A slightly improved FBH oh boy? To have him ranked higher than Flash is an absolute insult towards the one person who is holding the Terran race together against this onslaught of imbalanced maps and great Protoss players. When you compare Bisu/Flash on Dest vs Jangbi/Leta, the level of play for both players is just at a completely different scale. Jangbi is solid. Top 5 player certainly. But I can take your argument for putting Jangbi at #1 and change his name with Flash and it fits even better, with the exception that Flash showed an incredibly high level of play against Bisu playing the PvT of his life while Jangbi has been playing like Jangbi does, very solid with nothing special shown. No Protoss has played that well against Flash, EVER (in Jangbi's draw vs Flash on Blue Storm due to some cheese or another Flash got incredibly far behind but he made some genius moves to come back against Jangbi's uninspired play). This series was so sick that I'm writing an FE on it. Taking games from December onwards: Let's go over Jangbi's list: Wins vs: Jaehoon, pepe (2x), Really, Hwasin, Zero, kal, leta Losses vs: Shine[kal], effort, fantasy Flash's list: Wins vs: chalrenge, guemchi, rock (2x), movie, jaehoon, magma (2x), casy, anytime, hyvaa, pure, effort, bisu Losses vs: Horang2, Jaedong, Stork, Bisu (3x) Neither player has any really notable wins aside from Flash taking one game off of Bisu and I suppose his win vs Effort (whereas Jangbi lost). As I said Leta played like a noob that game and Zero/Kal are inconsistent at best vP. The only difference was that Flash lost 5 times vs 3 of the absolute best players along with a random loss to double proxy gate dt. Against Jaedong/Stork Flash played pretty poorly no question. Against Bisu however Flash played EXTRMELY well in the GOM series and pretty decently (better than any other Terran but still not at his best level) in the proleague match. And keep in mind that these maps were ridiculously in favor of P. Medusa is possibly the worst TvP map ever (5-24 without Flash as he defies imbalance), Destination is very P favored, while Autumn Wind favors P a lot midgame and T a lot lategame. Jangbi on the other hand lost in a pretty poor manner to a mediocre Fantasy on a somewhat Protoss favored map. Vs Effort he played pretty well (solid, as always) but his suicidal attack on Effort's second nat cost him big time. His harassment was excellent but his army composition and battles were rather poor, thus losing him a lot of units needlessly. A reasonably strong performance overall. His other loss was due to a ling runby vs some noname that he easily could have prevented. How can you say this is more consistent than Flash? Even ignoring the series against Bisu, Flash has beaten (slightly) better opponents while losing to MUCH better ones. Jangbi on the other hand has zero big time wins (I don't think proving how terrible Leta is TvP counts?). Leta is doing the same thing except he's not as far in a tourney, has played zero top 10 players aside from Jangbi (who he got raped by), and has never shown exceptional play, just very strong standard stuff against mediocre competition and BAD play against good competition. His play against Mind was decent and wasn't terrible against Skyhigh but these guys are not even that amazing currently (Free just looked awful in that game although Leta did play properly no qualms there). Top 5 looks fine for him. #2? That's a joke. Summary: Flash has a comparable record to Jangbi/Leta, however his losses are to much stronger players and his play in 4 games against Bisu is absolutely incomparable to anyone other than...Bisu himself. Solid/standard players who have not shown any distinguished play should NEVER EVER be #1 without a title. There are valid arguments for ranking Bisu at any different point in the top 5. I personally would've put him at 2 and Jaedong in the other one with Flash at a somewhat undeserved 1. However, no matter who it is, whoever gets that #1 spot is going to be somewhat undeserved because up until last night Bisu did have it without question. It's honestly a really hard question to solve and your answer is likely as good as mine: what do you do with a guy who for a bunch of games played at bonjwa level and then really sucked it up in another bunch? Jangbi/Leta have done little to prove themselves against world class competition and have done nothing major in tournaments (And you absolutely cannot argue that Jangbi is still in GOM while Flash isn't because this is 100% brackets). You cannot say that because aside from his games vs the world's best current PvT'er, Flash has lost 3 times as has Jangbi. Except double proxygate DT, Stork, and Jaedong, are much more serious competition (and more acceptable losses even though Flash didn't play as well) than some noname ling runby, Fantasy, and Effort. I didn't argue Jaedong's case because this is already long enough but him actually innovating something in ZvT is definitely a big step forward for both himself and the Zerg race and I consider this (and the results produced from it) a lot more important than again, solid and standard play from some proleague-only guy who plays bad people and another consistently good guy who gets lucky brackets every single tournament. quoting so more people can read this >.> | ||
Jaeden
Romania1489 Posts
Free should keep the PR spot, imo or even ForGG/Mind, one of them should be replacing FakeYellow, oh well, no big deal Also, if u put FakeYellow on the PR, he should be below Hwasin,imo. I agree about Hwasin(instead of Mind/ForGG), he plays great atm, so that's why he should be above FY who doesn`t play that great. I mean he only beat SangHo, Rock, 910, and Sea this month come to think of it more, maybe bisu is ok at #5, but even so, Flash should be above leta and jangbi, and so does JD, oh well.. stork is ok :D edit: FS please read this, I would love to see a response On January 16 2009 16:37 Jaeden wrote: + Show Spoiler + if Ver would've compared JangBi to Jaedong, well...: Jaedong: -his lost to zero...it's ZvZ, we all know JD is the god of ZvZ, it`s just that BO, and etc...we all know what can happen` there -win over Effort..despite Effort's great stats and potential, I`m not goin` to give JD a whole lot of credit for that, it`s ZvZ he simply owns there -loss against UpMagic...well FS, I REALLY hope u`ve seen that game -hyvaa, keke, blabla easy wins -MSL survivor, some great games there + the fact that JD was very unlucky, I think we all realise what would`ve been the outcome of that game if that mine there didn`t hit. -win over Hwasin...again FS, I hope u`ve seen that amazing game -same with the win over Bisu -Kal...yep, this is the thumbs-down for Jaedong -Fantasy, great things happened in that match, queens worked wonders -Anytime, Shine, Clay, people that are easy wins, I don`t give credit for them, neither should Jangbi get any credit for beating this kind of opponents -And finally his win over flash, I think that JD was VERY well-prepared for that match, and simply run-over flash ->his games with FBH and Sea were counted for the last PR in case u are wondering why I don`t count them 12-4 ok and now for JangBi: -He only played PL games, no SL for this guy, just GOM in which he beat Pepe, cool -Win over Jaehoon... -Lost to shine[kal]... -Wins over really hwasin, Zero, and Leta yes this is pretty good, however JD won against Bisu, Hwasin and Flash, who is more impresive ?! -than a lost to Fantasy that shouldn`t happen, really, it shouldn`t, considering Jangbi's PvT(i`m not gonna point out that JD won against him, oh wait, I did ) -his win over Kal...Kal is weak vs P -and again, I`m not counting jangbi's lost to Effort since that was involved in the last PR 8-2 I think it`s enough ,but yeah, JD's case is pretty clear, even Flash has a better case than JangBi again I`m not sayin` JD #1 !!!..I would be fine with something like: #1 Flash #2,3 Bisu/JD edit: it`s not only statistic here, I actually watched the games oh and sorry for spelling, I made this post pretty fast, coz I`m in a hurry I mean, ok, you've said that Flash lost against top opponents, but what about JD ? | ||
baubo
China3370 Posts
Despite being a good post, I didn't actually find much of a point in it. Basically, he said exactly what FS said, which is the fact that none of them were clear cut best player. Flash's problem is that he's a proven failure against all top players. Jaedong had a case when he was tearing apart Bisu and Flash, but then he decided to become a mediocre player the last few games. Bisu is now out of both Starleagues. You can make an argument for any of them, but you can also make just as much of an argument AGAINST each of them. In the end, FS simply went with the "safe" players who are at least consistent. | ||
Jaeden
Romania1489 Posts
On January 16 2009 17:53 baubo wrote: Despite being a good post, I didn't actually find much of a point in it. Basically, he said exactly what FS said, which is the fact that none of them were clear cut best player. Flash's problem is that he's a proven failure against all top players. Jaedong had a case when he was tearing apart Bisu and Flash, but then he decided to become a mediocre player the last few games. Bisu is now out of both Starleagues. You can make an argument for any of them, but you can also make just as much of an argument AGAINST each of them. In the end, FS simply went with the "safe" players who are at least consistent. no, he was sayin` that Flash deserves #1 spot more than JangBi, and I agree if Flash would've faced only lesser players, he would be EXTREMELY consistent I`m not saying Jangbi beat only noobs, but I`m pretty sure Flash would've beat all the opponents that JangBi faced since the last month | ||
StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
Game on medusa, flash made his BO, took his 4th, waited for bisu to move, bisu made a recall flash countered, GG. game 2: flash made a push, bisu stalled it with some nice goon micro, flash's push got there too late, arbiters out GG. game 3: flash's gameplan was weak, taking a third expo on 1 factory on destination. This forced him to defend it really heavy from his main cliff and build suplies at his third, this made bisu attack his natural instead. Flash hanged on but got way behind, bisu did his recall and flash countered once again and it was quite exiting for a moment there... Bisu played really well but Flash play was somewhat bad. He stuck to his buildorders and it didnt seem that he was that well prepared, plus he said he was sick maybe that has something to do with it. The proleague game was much better, specially from Bisu. While flash did his same old on medusa bisu made a nice strat, 14nex into 4gate buldogtiming while doubleexpanding. From there bisu had greater econ and won a pretty slow but entertaining game. Flash displayed his awesome defensive skills handeling the 4gate bulldog really nicely without delaying his upgrade strategy. But bisu had too good economics. I dont know.. im not too amazed by the GOM-series. | ||
baubo
China3370 Posts
On January 16 2009 17:57 Jaeden wrote: no, he was sayin` that Flash deserves #1 spot more than JangBi, and I agree if Flash would've faced only lesser players, he would be EXTREMELY consistent So? It still boils down to this. Jangbi may or may not succeed against the best. You don't know. I don't know. We do know that he has potential to be #1 based on his play. We do know that Flash failed against the best. This is undeniable. Hence Jangbi >= Flash. Flash maybe equal, but he cannot be better. | ||
Jaeden
Romania1489 Posts
On January 16 2009 18:05 baubo wrote: So? It still boils down to this. Jangbi may or may not succeed against the best. You don't know. I don't know. We do know that he has potential to be #1 based on his play. We do know that Flash failed against the best. This is undeniable. Hence Jangbi >= Flash. Flash maybe equal, but he cannot be better. that's from ur point of view Flash CAN be better, coz he CAN defeat all the opponents that jangbi couldn`t. also Flash > JangBi coz jangbi hasn`t proved anything special, just solid play, nothing exceptional. edit: oh and even if Flash failed against the best, what's ur argument for JangBi > Jaedong ? | ||
Avidkeystamper
United States8551 Posts
On January 16 2009 18:05 baubo wrote: So? It still boils down to this. Jangbi may or may not succeed against the best. You don't know. I don't know. We do know that he has potential to be #1 based on his play. We do know that Flash failed against the best. This is undeniable. Hence Jangbi >= Flash. Flash maybe equal, but he cannot be better. Logical Fallacy: This translates into An integer( Jangbi) may or may not be bigger than 6/ Flash is less than 6. Thus Jangbi>=Flash. The point is Jangbi can fail harder (and has done so MSL finals?) than Flash. | ||
baubo
China3370 Posts
On January 16 2009 18:09 Jaeden wrote: that's from ur point of view Flash CAN be better, coz he CAN defeat all the opponents that jangbi couldn`t. also Flash > JangBi coz jangbi hasn`t proved anything special, just solid play, nothing exceptional. edit: oh and even if Flash failed against the best, what's ur argument for JangBi > Jaedong ? Who has Flash beaten that would suggest he's more capable of beating top progamers? Please, name a single one. | ||
Avidkeystamper
United States8551 Posts
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 16 2009 18:11 Avidkeystamper wrote: Logical Fallacy: This translates into An integer( Jangbi) may or may not be bigger than 6/ Flash is less than 6. Thus Jangbi>=Flash. The point is Jangbi can fail harder (and has done so MSL finals?) than Flash. again, the last MSL final has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with this power rank | ||
Avidkeystamper
United States8551 Posts
On January 16 2009 18:15 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: again, the last MSL final has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with this power rank It was at his argument, not the PR. What has Jangbi done to show he's improved since then? | ||
Jaeden
Romania1489 Posts
On January 16 2009 18:13 baubo wrote: Who has Flash beaten that would suggest he's more capable of beating top progamers? Please, name a single one. ok, I got ur point here, in your opinion flash>JangBi ( even though, I wasn`t referring to: Flash can beat top opponents, it`s just that he can beat those that JangBi couldn`t, and that`s why Flash could've been even more consistent) howeveeeer, I repeat myself : please give me an argument of JangBi > Jaedong? | ||
baubo
China3370 Posts
On January 16 2009 18:11 Avidkeystamper wrote: Logical Fallacy: This translates into An integer( Jangbi) may or may not be bigger than 6/ Flash is less than 6. Thus Jangbi>=Flash. The point is Jangbi can fail harder (and has done so MSL finals?) than Flash. So where was Flash in the MSL finals? Oh, that's right, he lost to Yarnc twice in the group stages. The same Yarnc Jangbi beat senseless 3-0 later in the Ro8. | ||
Avidkeystamper
United States8551 Posts
On January 16 2009 18:17 Jaeden wrote: ok, I got ur point here, in your opinion flash>JangBi ( even though, I wasn`t referring to: Flash can beat top opponents, it`s just that he can beat those that JangBi couldn`t, and that`s why Flash could've been even more consistent) howeveeeer, I repeat myself : please give me an argument of JangBi > Jaedong? Jaedong's been losing too much, Zero, Kal, UpMagic and Canata. | ||
Jaeden
Romania1489 Posts
he also played more games, and won more | ||
Avidkeystamper
United States8551 Posts
On January 16 2009 18:17 baubo wrote: So where was Flash in the MSL finals? Oh, that's right, he lost to Yarnc twice in the group stages. The same Yarnc Jangbi beat senseless 3-0 later in the Ro8. You didn't address my topic, I never said anything about league advancement. You said, Jangbi may or may not succeed against the best. You also said Flash hasn't, but it doesn't mean Jangbi will perform better than Flash against the best. Also, their had the same record vs Bisu when he was hot, so Jangbi clearly plays equally at Flash's level. His skill hasn't drastically improved since the finals either. Don't try taking this offtopic. We do know how Jangbi will fair against top players. Oh, btw, I'm not arguing rankings, just saying you had a fallicious argument. | ||
baubo
China3370 Posts
On January 16 2009 18:17 Jaeden wrote: ok, I got ur point here, in your opinion flash>JangBi ( even though, I wasn`t referring to: Flash can beat top opponents, it`s just that he can beat those that JangBi couldn`t, and that`s why Flash could've been even more consistent) howeveeeer, I repeat myself : please give me an argument of JangBi > Jaedong? The same as FS's actually. | ||
Avidkeystamper
United States8551 Posts
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Jaeden
Romania1489 Posts
that JD lost more ? oh c`mon, JD played mooore games, and won more, against Tougher opponents, oh and please watch the games I just don`t agree with this PR at all, sorry FS I actually like the fact that u do the PR, just that this month is...imho | ||
baubo
China3370 Posts
On January 16 2009 18:20 Avidkeystamper wrote: You didn't address my topic, I never said anything about league advancement. You said, Jangbi may or may not succeed against the best. You also said Flash hasn't, but it doesn't mean Jangbi will perform better than Flash against the best. Also, their had the same record vs Bisu when he was hot, so Jangbi clearly plays equally at Flash's level. His skill hasn't drastically improved since the finals either. Don't try taking this offtopic. We do know how Jangbi will fair against top players. Oh, btw, I'm not arguing rankings, just saying you had a fallicious argument. Hence, why I said Jangbi >= Flash, not Jangbi > Flash. And the bolded text is pure speculation on part. Are you going to use one series to judge Jangbi(vs Bisu in PvP 2 months ago) as opposed to a string of losses by Flash to top players within the past month? And you're saying I have a fallacy in logic? | ||
FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 16 2009 18:20 Avidkeystamper wrote: You didn't address my topic, I never said anything about league advancement. You said, Jangbi may or may not succeed against the best. You also said Flash hasn't, but it doesn't mean Jangbi will perform better than Flash against the best. Also, their had the same record vs Bisu when he was hot, so Jangbi clearly plays equally at Flash's level. His skill hasn't drastically improved since the finals either. Don't try taking this offtopic. We do know how Jangbi will fair against top players. Oh, btw, I'm not arguing rankings, just saying you had a fallicious argument. you're making wierd points and drawing conclusions that don't make sense. Jangbi's MSL second place was a hell of a lot more than what Flash had going on during those months. If the MSL final is so important, why on earth would it be Jangbi who has to improve to keep up with Flash? And seriously, saying two players are equal because they both lost the same number of games to Bisu in series two months apart? what? | ||
Jaeden
Romania1489 Posts
On January 16 2009 18:30 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: you're making wierd points and drawing conclusions that don't make sense. Jangbi's MSL second place was a hell of a lot more than what Flash had going on during those months. If the MSL final is so important, why on earth would it be Jangbi who has to improve to keep up with Flash? And seriously, saying two players are equal because they both lost the same number of games to Bisu in series two months apart? what? I guess he was tryin` to say that JangBi doesn`t have what it takes to be a SL champion | ||
Jaeden
Romania1489 Posts
J: Hey dude whaz`up ? D: nothin` bro, u ? J: oh, I`ve got a question: Who do u think is the most powerful SC player atm? D: hmm, I dunno man, it`s kinda hard to say Little Jimmy comes around, after seein` the PR: -oh I know dudes, it`s JANGBI! -...?! that sounded kinda weird :s | ||
Ver
United States2186 Posts
I do apologize for my tendency to overemphasize certain characterstics too much. I am very overtired right now so I hope this post isn't too poorly organized. I argued in the first post that Flash has a better overall argument than Jangbi for what you used; this time I'll try to elaborate how I think things through and why I value certain characteristics higher. I think I see a reason for the discrepancy between our views (besides the fact that I have not seen all of Leta's games). In my mind the #1 player should be the player who is most favored to win a single's league final. Obviously the reverse is not true, but in past PR's the #1 player has either just won the final or was a previous finals winner and looks to be in a good position for another one. This breaks that trend and also puts the #2 as a player who has done nothing but play proleague and qualify. There's another argument here about how in PR history past greats have gotten preferential treatment since we know what they are capable of but I can't fully flesh it out right now. The problem I have with Jangbi/Leta is that they are the same type of player, as far as I can tell, as Best or Sea: very strong proleague players but bad series players. Great mechanics, great decision making, overall very strong play, but they just lack the mental and psychological sides of series play. They don't have that 'something special' (this is conjecture on Leta though for he's totally unproven). Take Best for example: an undeniable proleague monster, holding up SKT with a very strong vT and vP and even in his worst matchup by far he still racks up wins consistently. But then put him in a Gom ro8 series vs a decent up and comer. Skyhigh played well certainly but Protoss simply should not be losing on those maps to standard Terran play and Best looked like he was playing to lose. The proleague monster vanished and it was replaced by some guy who clearly didn't know what he was doing. That's what I picture as happening to Jangbi/Leta when they meet serious competition although not to the same degree. + Show Spoiler [SemiTangent] + Jangbi's starleague performances hold to this: He's made the semifinals three times now with by far the best brackets possible. In GOM MSL S4 he made his to the semis by going through the insane bracket possible of Memory and Yarnc until he outplayed but was outsmarted by Kal. In Clubday he got faced with the joke that is Upmagic's and Yarnc's vPs until he beat down a Kal that was on the lower side of his wild swings. I don't know about you but when I watched Bisu vs Jangbi I saw two people in two different worlds. In the one game Jangbi did win it was solely because Bisu made an egregious unforced error. In every other game Bisu set the tone and controlled the game. It was the difference a player who knows exactly what they are doing and a player just trying to play normally. Now in GOM 2 Jangbi had to go through dropping with a loss to Shine of all people, an out of shape Iris and the ever terrifying pepe so that he could get a free pass to the semifinals all on incredibly advantageous maps (sadly you can't ever count out Backho no matter how dumb he is). Back in Clubday I felt Free was a better PvPer than Jangbi in series play but Free is looking pretty sloppy lately so Jangbi will probably take this semi series. What happens in the final completely depends upon Bisu's mental state imo. If he takes this loss like he did losing to Mind a year ago he's done for, but if he can stay mentally strong I see no reason why a Clubday repeat won't happen. Jangbi has never shown that he has what it takes to win series vs the best players because great play without direction does not cut it in those games and his current form is nothing outside the norm. With Leta all I can do, as with you, is speculate of course. To me he looks a lot like Sea and early Flash in many ways. Fresh out of the gate, extremely strong TvZ/TvT and decent TvP (my FBH remark was probably too much but that game against Jangbi was just so bad). Note that early Flash did not particularly play towards his intelligence like he has in 2008; I see Leta going the same route, beating down baddies and losing to a strong player in some series. Like you I am very hard in Flash because at his peak he was just unbelievable, but I think the major difference is Flash playing intelligently vs trying to play towards his mechanics and right now he is doing the former just without his invincible aura of before. Yes, games like v Stork exist where he slipped up badly. But he and he alone is winning against Protoss on the most imbalanced TvP mapset there could possibly be showcases a lot towards his improvement in his brain usage. I do disagree (having watched all of Flash's games) that he is playing worse overall than Leta/Jangbi. I think Flash has played at a pretty stable level since losing to Jaedong's 9 pool back in October. Do you? Can you provide some specifics to his bad performances? In my view, Flash has played poorly vs Stork, Jaedong, and Guemchi with a mediocre performance (relative to current state) against Movie and Chalrenge and maybe Casy. I do agree he should be lower if he hadn't played vs Bisu but I feel he would be at the same level as Jangbi then while worse off than Leta. Maybe I'm not missing something but I can't see his overall level of play (for as little as we can tell with such bad competition) being bad at all. Leta and Flash have had absolutely no trouble versus their clearly inferior opponents; the only differences are that Leta lost on Medusa to Bestgod while Flash rapes Rock Jaehoon and co silly on these maps, and being able to take a game off that Bisu on Medusa is just a big !!!. Add this to Flash's spectacular Destination build and hopefully you can see why I favor Flash's TvP as being a stronger way to rate him than Leta's TvT/TvP mix. They have to be judged this way as outside of Jaedong and Effort all their Zerg opponents have sucked and neither player looks better than the other here imo. Jangbi is a little weirder and on second glance I'm having trouble seeing where you find his strong points (I can see it with Leta though). Here's my brief take on his play: in the first half vs Hwasin was frankly bad because Hwasin of all people should not be getting any kind of advantage against Jangbi, but he made up for it in the second half with some stellar moves. He won vs Zero because he's a better player using a better build and along these lines he won vs Kal with a build order win and better play. He stomped down a very inferior player in sea.really and playing pepe on Medusa/Neo Req shows nothing. Vs Leta he played his normal PvT level and massacred him. He lost vs Effort because of some bad unit and combat choices despite incredible harassment. He lost vs Fantasy because he played well below his normal PvT level, just like Flash v Stork. TBH after watching all of Jangbi's games I like Leta's play more than Jangbi's. There just really isn't anything special at all there besides his PvT (which again is hard to judge given maps + bad opponents) which still isn't near the level Bisu showed v Flash. Can you point out where Jangbi has distinguished himself? All I've seen for his better levels is how he was able to pull himself out of deficits he got himself into in the first place (or lose from advantages he got with good play) as well as some strong harassment vs players who couldn't defend well. I agree I was too harsh on Leta but I think 'inconsistently solid' describes Jangbi quite nicely. I don't agree at all that he has shown that he has two matchups that he's on par with Bisu. The PvZ now is debatable but the Effort games imo showcase the differences nicely before the qualifications at least, I have never seen Jangbi play at the level of PvT Bisu showed in those four games, and we have to give Bisu the nod for his PvP based on the scant evidence recently. Jaeden, if I were to compare Jaedong to Jangbi I would show that Jaedong is making strides to combat the considerable matchup advantage Terrans have had for a long time (because Zergs are stupid and oov is smart, not imbalance or maps) and has been remarkably successful with it. He has been inconsistent though and still hasn't found a solid answer for mech, which would merit a lower placement than Flash, higher than Jangbi, and anyone's call vs Leta. Anotherday that just shows that you can downplay any game if you want. I can do it too. 'Oh Savior vs Iris was just Savior playing his normal build while Iris was overaggressive, suicided lots of units, and didn't scout Savior's expo.' Game 1: Flash deviated from his normal build by delaying the 3rd cc to counteract Bisu's harass (on pure prediction), then he made his 4th cc while still on two facts all while denying Bisu information that crucially threw his timing off. That is a) not his normal build at all b) one of the best showcases of intelligent play in a long time to combat one of the most retarded maps in a long time (Hi Katrina or Longinus II). Game 2 Flash pulled a nice trick + ob kill to get a massive advantage and Bisu stopped it by pulling out stuff only Savior would do; no other Protoss would've won the game when Flash moved out. Dismissing it as 'delaying with goons' is um...silly? Game 3 Flash makes an excellent build for a map that is nearly impossible for Terrans who don't 2 fact, Bisu spots the weakness and gains an early advantage with a very daring attack. Bisu's play in winning from the very disadvantageous position he had after losing his first army was nothing less than superb and beyond any other Protoss's level. When Flash gets in that position he never loses (i,e see Flash v Jangbi at colesseum). Game 1 shows that Flash is the only Terran who can beat absolute top notch opponents on Medusa. Games 2/3 show that Flash can gain decisive advantages on unfavorable maps while Bisu can turn those decisive advantages around when no Protoss has been able to in the past. | ||
Manit0u
Poland17031 Posts
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StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
Ofcourse i can try to make every game ever played sound mediocre, but the difference is that when I can tell a game isn't mediocre i wont try to. Flash's build on destination was not exellent. I dont know how to explain it but that map isn't suited for the flash build (being early upgrades and fast third), it is too hard defending a fast third, especially on 1 factory. It might be possible if he did his normal 2fact before 3rd CC but its still hard. I don't think flash played at his full potential either. The game on medusa was really only a display of poor decisionmaking by bisu. At the moment flash moved out to take his fourth, flash had very few units and bisu very many. He could just have broken him there, but i guess Bisu thought flash had 2 fact before 3rd CC that game, since its usually what he does, so he was afraid. The game on chupung wasn't good at all. The thing he did with his goons was not that amazing. Flash did a normal fast push and he failed, that game was the worst out of the series. I can think of many protosses who could pull that thing of with those goons. Flash's decisionmaking was poor that game. Two really great names, and two pretty long games. But the quality wasn't that good in my oppinion. | ||
Malinor
Germany4700 Posts
On January 16 2009 19:58 AnOth3rDAy wrote: Two really great names, and two pretty long games. But the quality wasn't that good in my oppinion. I agree with you, I don't really understand why this series is so hyped. I basically feel that Flashs harrasing has been horrible and therefore his 3base turtle will get overrun by very good protoss players who realize that they just need to take 5+bases (on a map that is suited for it). The BO will work against any mediocore protoss but not against the best. I also believe that game 1 in the series was more Bisus failure than Flashs win. And the PL-Match between Bisu and Flash is just meh. Sure, he defended well against this Shuttle/Front break, nearly noone could pull off something like this, but he was at one factory until nine minutes in the game. This is just ridicoulus, you will never compete with i.e. Bests macro with such a build. I often get the feeling that a lot of people here confuse long games with good games. | ||
d_so
Korea (South)3262 Posts
and you can say "the last msl has no effect on this power rank" all you want, but part of your reasoning for bisu's drop is his outing from "both" leagues... savior beating the #1 MSL seed, #1 ELO is just as deserving an argument for #10 as whatever you said about yellow | ||
StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
On January 17 2009 01:12 d_so wrote: you know what would have made this power rank awesome? if you put savior at ten, then banned anyone for disagreeing with you haha and you can say "the last msl has no effect on this power rank" all you want, but part of your reasoning for bisu's drop is his outing from "both" leagues... savior beating the #1 MSL seed, #1 ELO is just as deserving an argument for #10 as whatever you said about yellow hero also beat bisu, hero for #10? but i guess you're just kidding | ||
Matoo-
Canada1397 Posts
About the actual ranking, I wouldn't have chosen Jangbi for #1 objectively, but I like the feeling it conveys : "the progaming scene right now is a mess, everybody performed randomly this month => Jangbi #1 even if he didn't achieve anything big". Savior appearing in the CNBC would be fucking sick and I would be so happy, but at the same time I really think he doesn't deserve it yet. Pro-gaming is hectic but really interesting right now. It looks like we are at many crossroads. Is Bisu going to slump after being destroyed in his legendary matchup? Where is Flash heading? Are Jaedong and the new zerg hopes going to break the Protoss domination? Are queens going to become standard in ZvT? Do the PL performers Best, Leta, Jangbi have what it takes to grab an individual league title? Are Oov, MJY and Boxer going to make a comeback? So many answers to come in the next few months, I'm so excited. | ||
GinNtoniC
Sweden2945 Posts
This has to be said though; 4 days ago you'd put Bisu at the top calling anyone a tard for thinking otherwise. He then shows up to play a handful of vZ games, use his old, predictive build and gets completely read by his opponents while not showing capacity to innovate his play. Result: His harass utterly fails and the very pillar his vZ builds on collapses and his matches along with it. Therefore he's now suddenly not a force to be reckoned with, despite his latest vT and vP performances being absolute clinics? As soon as he gets to analyze his play and recover mentally, I don't think there's any reason why his play shouldn't go back to the multitasking machinery that's been his trademark over the past month. While the same arguments could work in Stork's defense, the man has actually been slipping, although I think some of his later games (f.e. vs Sea) could have gone completely the other way. That being said, I think Jangbi would be smashed by each and every single one of the 4 people directly below him on this rank in a BO5 and I'd be willing to bet signifant amount of money on it. | ||
d_so
Korea (South)3262 Posts
On January 17 2009 10:22 GinNtoniC wrote: For ever and ever and ever I've mostly agreed with the power ranks since its introduction, but this has to be the first time where I completely, ferociously disagere with more or less every single spot on the PR. Leta's position seems to be to be the only truly justified position on the chart (besides the less important ones, such as BeSt being nr 7 and FBH being nr 8). It's a fresh iniative, and a just one. The guy's been nothing but impressive for a very long time and had his acknowledgment coming. This has to be said though; 4 days ago you'd put Bisu at the top calling anyone a tard for thinking otherwise. He then shows up to play a handful of vZ games, use his old, predictive build and gets completely read by his opponents while not showing capacity to innovate his play. Result: His harass utterly fails and the very pillar his vZ builds on collapses and his matches along with it. Therefore he's now suddenly not a force to be reckoned with, despite his latest vT and vP performances being absolute clinics? As soon as he gets to analyze his play and recover mentally, I don't think there's any reason why his play shouldn't go back to the multitasking machinery that's been his trademark over the past month. While the same arguments could work in Stork's defense, the man has actually been slipping, although I think some of his later games (f.e. vs Sea) could have gone completely the other way. That being said, I think Jangbi would be smashed by each and every single one of the 4 people directly below him on this rank in a BO5 and I'd be willing to bet signifant amount of money on it. if jangbi vs leta happens, i bet you a hundred dollars, paypal | ||
baubo
China3370 Posts
If anything, I say Jangbi has as good a shot to win the MSL as anyone right now. On January 17 2009 10:22 GinNtoniC wrote: For ever and ever and ever I've mostly agreed with the power ranks since its introduction, but this has to be the first time where I completely, ferociously disagere with more or less every single spot on the PR. Leta's position seems to be to be the only truly justified position on the chart (besides the less important ones, such as BeSt being nr 7 and FBH being nr 8). It's a fresh iniative, and a just one. The guy's been nothing but impressive for a very long time and had his acknowledgment coming. This has to be said though; 4 days ago you'd put Bisu at the top calling anyone a tard for thinking otherwise. He then shows up to play a handful of vZ games, use his old, predictive build and gets completely read by his opponents while not showing capacity to innovate his play. Result: His harass utterly fails and the very pillar his vZ builds on collapses and his matches along with it. Therefore he's now suddenly not a force to be reckoned with, despite his latest vT and vP performances being absolute clinics? As soon as he gets to analyze his play and recover mentally, I don't think there's any reason why his play shouldn't go back to the multitasking machinery that's been his trademark over the past month. While the same arguments could work in Stork's defense, the man has actually been slipping, although I think some of his later games (f.e. vs Sea) could have gone completely the other way. That being said, I think Jangbi would be smashed by each and every single one of the 4 people directly below him on this rank in a BO5 and I'd be willing to bet signifant amount of money on it. There seems to be a lot less Leta hate than Jangbi hate to be put over the holy-trinity of Flash/Jaedong/Bisu. Yet Leta is basically Jangbi w/o the pedigree. They both roll over mediocre opponents and never met strong ones... Well, except once. Jangbi and Leta met each. The result was somewhat onesided to say the least. | ||
StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
bisu flash jaedong stork jangbi and best.. Good but not the best: firebathero leta kal effort free, maybe mind, skyhigh, upmagic and yellow also. this is based on intuition though, and not on pure results. I think any of the top players would beat any of the bottom players in a BO5. | ||
Eternity241
Australia342 Posts
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[DUF]MethodMan
Germany1716 Posts
On January 17 2009 10:22 GinNtoniC wrote: For ever and ever and ever I've mostly agreed with the power ranks since its introduction, but this has to be the first time where I completely, ferociously disagere with more or less every single spot on the PR. Leta's position seems to be to be the only truly justified position on the chart (besides the less important ones, such as BeSt being nr 7 and FBH being nr 8). It's a fresh iniative, and a just one. The guy's been nothing but impressive for a very long time and had his acknowledgment coming. This has to be said though; 4 days ago you'd put Bisu at the top calling anyone a tard for thinking otherwise. He then shows up to play a handful of vZ games, use his old, predictive build and gets completely read by his opponents while not showing capacity to innovate his play. Result: His harass utterly fails and the very pillar his vZ builds on collapses and his matches along with it. Therefore he's now suddenly not a force to be reckoned with, despite his latest vT and vP performances being absolute clinics? As soon as he gets to analyze his play and recover mentally, I don't think there's any reason why his play shouldn't go back to the multitasking machinery that's been his trademark over the past month. While the same arguments could work in Stork's defense, the man has actually been slipping, although I think some of his later games (f.e. vs Sea) could have gone completely the other way. That being said, I think Jangbi would be smashed by each and every single one of the 4 people directly below him on this rank in a BO5 and I'd be willing to bet signifant amount of money on it. I wanted to write down my own opinion but he has done it before, thanks. I saved a lot of time | ||
LimitlessSky
United States434 Posts
he has done very well consistently... but honestly... I see only Jangbi and Leta being consistent and everyone else kinda going back and forth.... | ||
Sentenal
United States12395 Posts
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JIJIyO
Canada1957 Posts
Luxury all killed Khan, and took out their three best players. | ||
Jaeden
Romania1489 Posts
JangBi isn`t the most powerful starcraft player atm...if it`s hard to decide who is the most powerful, u could've just put at the #1 spot a player who might be. | ||
Presony-Boy
Israel812 Posts
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samachking
Bahrain4949 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + If the PR was made today Luxury would've gotten at least 7th spot. I didn't see today's games but 4-0ing Khan is no joke. | ||
Scamp
United States1086 Posts
Unless you are the first player you don't get to prepare for a specific opponent/race like you usually get to. That changes the game a lot, IMO. If one team is particularly deep (read: STX Soul) then perhaps their coaches prepare certain players (read: Probably July) on one or two specific maps against a certain opponent. If the situation comes up then you snipe them, if not then that player doesn't have to play. This could have huge implications. It's tough to beat a well-prepared opponent when you aren't able to prepare yourself. Now that that's said, I think the KTF mascot might find it's way onto the next power ranking. SKT's mascot should be considered for this PR's CBNC. | ||
raga4ka
Bulgaria5676 Posts
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StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
example: Stork[gm] Bisu I can understand when it come to people having the same name as another, for example yellow[arnc]... | ||
KnightOfNi
United States1508 Posts
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samachking
Bahrain4949 Posts
On January 18 2009 02:05 KnightOfNi wrote: What the fuck. Jangbi has looked like shit recently, so I'm not really sure what game you are watching. He backed into the GOM semis, isn't even in the OSL, and his recent PL games have been pretty much shit. I'm not sure where you found the nerve to call him more consistent than Leta (who really should be #1), but whatever floats your boat. What? Are you watching the same games? Jangbi went 8-2 in the time of the PR, and guess who Jangbi won against in that time? Leta and the game was a complete rape. | ||
eshlow
United States5210 Posts
On January 17 2009 16:21 Sentenal wrote: I think Bisu transformed into Bizzaro-Bisu at some point, but I'm not sure when. At one point, he was invincible in PvZ, good PvP, but his PvT was suspect. But now, Bisu has been plowing through Terrans and Protosses, but losese to almost every Zerg he faces. WTF Bisu I agree.. but it's very hard to be dominant at all three matchups at once. Or rather.. most of the terran and protoss and even the zerg greats are good against one or two opponents... yet they have the third race that they have dropoff against. Boxer's was toss, I guess you could say saviors was zerg, bisu was mediocre at vP and vT but now he did flip it around. Stork was horrible at vZ but great at vT and vP. There's a lot of examples because I think they require different play styles or something like that. | ||
StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
Sometimes however if someone is dominating a matchup by playing like the others, just better than everyone else, he will most likely dominate for a while. Like jaedong zvz. | ||
Licmyobelisk
Philippines3682 Posts
Man, I'm a fanboy but they way he has been crushed by lesst opponents its just plain sucks.. | ||
ambit!ous1
United States3662 Posts
not seeing Sea's name on PR is so painfull | ||
triangle
United States3803 Posts
I know PL doesn't mean much, but still... | ||
Sulunais
Korea (South)34 Posts
I think you put too much weight on the last couple of weeks, ignoring results from a few months ago. | ||
Jyvblamo
Canada13788 Posts
On January 18 2009 12:22 Sulunais wrote: Seems everyone's forgotten about Kal and Free. They've both been strong in the last few OSL and MSL tournaments. You mean just MSL, right? | ||
Jaeden
Romania1489 Posts
On January 18 2009 12:22 Sulunais wrote: Seems everyone's forgotten about Kal and Free. They've both been strong in the last few OSL and MSL tournaments. Has Leta even played a televised Bo5? Their proleague performances are supporting otherwise weak teams, getting results similar to Yarnc and Hwasin. I think you put too much weight on the last couple of weeks, ignoring results from a few months ago. that's the point, this is not Kespa you know... although I still disagree with the PR and it seems like FS isn`t responding any more | ||
mrgerry
United States1508 Posts
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Jaeden
Romania1489 Posts
On January 18 2009 16:03 mrgerry wrote: FS has made his point pretty clear especially considering the explanations he gave to Ver. If you have disagreements just read through those and I'm pretty sure you will find some means of reasoning to your questions. ...please read all, not just one post | ||
amorpheus
Bulgaria2144 Posts
I can't agree for Jang bee but yet there is no other in better position. | ||
KwarK
United States40729 Posts
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strongwind
United States862 Posts
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Hyperionnn
Turkey4968 Posts
If bisu wins gom and continue to play well in pl, he will most likely jump to no1 | ||
yunicyarblejellythou
United States77 Posts
Because as has been generally stated, the PR is not a ranking based on statistics but on gameplay, I am actually surprised at many of the players rankings. It seems like there is some residual fanboism residing in your heart with regards to Flash. Flash's performances reflect a much weaker gameplay than either Jaedong or Bisu, yet you refer to Jaedong's *statistics*, and Bisu's loses as evidence of their position, hence implying the righteousness of the laters positions. Totally wrong. There has to be some level of transitivity present in these PR, and not just transitivity for the sake of transitivity but a respectful sysnthesis of what certain games won and lost represent in the world of predicting starcraft strength., A primary example of the major fallacies exhibited would be something like this. "Jangbi deserves the number 1 spot because he has beaten giants like Bisu, Free, and Mind. While when arguing for why Jaedong is at the number 4 spot you say something like, he lost to a slumping Bisu, and Free and Mind though decent are not in their best forms." You see the lack of an appropriate use of transitivity there? You didn't say verbatim this, its just an example. If we all agree that the PR is partly a reward for recent success and partly a predictor of expected success, then this PR is replete with errors. Flash does not deserve the 3rd spot. His play as a whole has been poor with victories coming against opponents that he should never lose to, and losses to players all lower than him on the PR. Leta's rank to me is not deserved as his play though insanely great has equalled a poor performing Bisu's essentially. I mean he has essentially the same pro-league success, Bisu is in GOM, has yet to play in the MSL or OSL stages that Bisu lost in and could as easily lose. Jangbi is similar as well, though I think in the end his position may be justified because of his opponents failures. Anyway, my PR would go something like this: 1. Jaedong 2. Bisu 3. Jangbi 4. Leta 5. Best 6. Flash 7. Stork 8. FBH 9. Kal 10. Luxury I think this is fitting for the PR. For example, the #1 player should unconditionally receive more votes on liquibet than any opponent on this list. So on mine Jaedong would have more votes than everyone else he would be facing. On FS's list, you would have Jangbi having to receive more votes against Jaedong, or Bisu. You would have Flash needing more votes than Bisu and Jaedong. Etc Etc. | ||
KwarK
United States40729 Posts
On January 18 2009 19:47 strongwind wrote: ^ I can sense the spoiler cries mounting Anyone who goes into a topic devoted to the discussion of the performance of players deserves to find out how said players are performing. | ||
KnightOfNi
United States1508 Posts
On January 17 2009 16:21 Sentenal wrote: I think Bisu transformed into Bizzaro-Bisu at some point, but I'm not sure when. At one point, he was invincible in PvZ, good PvP, but his PvT was suspect. But now, Bisu has been plowing through Terrans and Protosses, but losese to almost every Zerg he faces. WTF Bisu Basically, he's been practicing with Best, who can't beat a good zerg if his life depended on it. See his game against Saint on medusa. EDIT: It was saint. | ||
Geo.Rion
7375 Posts
On January 19 2009 02:22 KnightOfNi wrote: Basically, he's been practicing with Best, who can't beat a good zerg if his life depended on it. See his game against Saint on medusa. EDIT: It was saint. yeah, Savior and Effort are lame-zergs especially against Toss, no wonder Best beat them they suck so bad.... Seriously, i ahte ppl who just throw out shit on their mouth and feel clever. best's PvZ is improving, Best has nothing to do with Bisu's shaking vZ, if you want to blame teammates, blame the zergs, cuz they suck, so Bisu and best dont have too many practice partners in the team. On the other hand they can practice PvP and PvT all day and night against high caliber opponents + personal coaches (Kingdom, Oov) Saint can beat anybody if he has a good day, after that loose to a chump... | ||
disciple
9069 Posts
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mrgerry
United States1508 Posts
On January 18 2009 16:40 Jaeden wrote: ...please read all, not just one post He responded to why Free and Kal are not up there on earlier pages. What else was I supposed to read about when you just said you disagree. | ||
Jaeden
Romania1489 Posts
On January 19 2009 02:59 mrgerry wrote: He responded to why Free and Kal are not up there on earlier pages. What else was I supposed to read about when you just said you disagree. I disagree about JD mainly, and I don`t see any arguments for him | ||
EleanorRIgby
Canada3923 Posts
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SerpentFlame
400 Posts
On January 19 2009 04:32 EleanorRIgby wrote: there is such a huge misconception that leta is a safe standard player, this is totally wrong i think hes currently the best all around terran player with no current weakness Watch any of his games versus protoss. Losing a game to BackHo, getting completely destroyed by Jangbi, *almost* losing to Guemchi, and getting steamrolled by Free (these games were far from top-class by Leta)? Granted, Leta's got a good vP, certainly a better one than most gamers, but as far as S class gamers go, his vP is nowhere near those of say, Flash, even though Flash has not been doing too well as of late. Like I think most people have said, Leta still remains largely untested against skilled players in a Bo3 or Bo5, so saying he's "the best all around terran player" is quite a stretch, until he goes far in a starleague. | ||
DalfiusWL
New Zealand47 Posts
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traced
1739 Posts
it's like he went from knowing every timing to knowing none | ||
GGQ
Canada2653 Posts
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SerpentFlame
400 Posts
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Sulunais
Korea (South)34 Posts
On January 18 2009 21:19 yunicyarblejellythou wrote: ...i simultaneously view it as a barometer of how "one would bet" if starcraft was open to Vegas, or a predictor of future games. The logic is inductive. The better the players short term success the better his likely near future success the greater his "equity" to a system that would predict the outcome of games. The intuitive feel humans possess about the strength of a player should therefore naturally be replicated with a short term ELO ranking system if there were to be one in existence... I think of the PR as a kind of predictor of short-term future success, too. But I'm not sure that recent results alone can make those predictions. Chance and luck are more important than people tend to accept. Even if you watch all the games, a player's going to look good if they get an early lucky break, and bad if they're fighting an uphill struggle. Having said that, it's only the last few contentious places on the rank that I disagree with. Yarnc seems to lack that devious, evil streak that the great zergs have. Hwasin looks petrified when he faces protoss. | ||
Avidkeystamper
United States8551 Posts
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Eternity241
Australia342 Posts
On January 19 2009 16:29 Avidkeystamper wrote: Do people think of the PR as a overall assessment of a player's power over the entire month or as an assessment of the players power at one point during the month (when the PR comes out), meaning for the latter choice, recent games have more impact on the placement of the PR. imo PR reflects the player's playing at that particular point when the PR is released. However, if say, for example, they do really bad at the time of PR release but did well at the beginning of the month, that should and does give them some slack on placement of PR. However, a player's form in a coming month is almost always unpredictable, especially when they have been shaky like + Show Spoiler + bisu, that 3-0 rape of skyhigh just shows that it's only his PvZ that probably needs refining. | ||
Nightmarjoo
United States3359 Posts
edit: sorry just saw Skyhigh mentioned 340503945 times above me. I had to clean my glasses and relook when I saw Jangbi on top, but in the end I had to agree. When I thought about who's been doing the best recently but not super recently I just think "Bisu Bisu Bisu", but then Bisu flopped a bit recently, and Stork hasn't finished partying for his OSL win yet. Sad to see Flash above Jaedong though. Yarnc being on here is just funny all-over to me, even funnier that he's here and not Luxury (I don't mean a mis-placement, just funny in general that Yarnc did so much better recently). | ||
Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On January 19 2009 05:49 SerpentFlame wrote: Watch any of his games versus protoss. Losing a game to BackHo, getting completely destroyed by Jangbi, *almost* losing to Guemchi, and getting steamrolled by Free (these games were far from top-class by Leta)? Granted, Leta's got a good vP, certainly a better one than most gamers, but as far as S class gamers go, his vP is nowhere near those of say, Flash, even though Flash has not been doing too well as of late. Like I think most people have said, Leta still remains largely untested against skilled players in a Bo3 or Bo5, so saying he's "the best all around terran player" is quite a stretch, until he goes far in a starleague. Well.. vs Guemchi his vulture harrass was really good although Guemchi choked majorly. Against Free, his vulture snipes were insane (Delayed Free's 4th by a few minutes easily). His overall gameplay is a bit flawed but he's really intelligent and is still only improving. | ||
Piste
6136 Posts
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SerpentFlame
400 Posts
On January 19 2009 21:07 Shikyo wrote: Well.. vs Guemchi his vulture harrass was really good although Guemchi choked majorly. Against Free, his vulture snipes were insane (Delayed Free's 4th by a few minutes easily). His overall gameplay is a bit flawed but he's really intelligent and is still only improving. Impressive, but nevertheless, the top-level skill he exhibited in that matchup so far is only mechanical. There are plenty of gamers who have the stellar mechanics needed for a matchup that they still suck at, and Leta has yet to prove himself as different. Yarnc and Luxury, for example, have always had ridiculous mutalisk harassment, but they still manage to lose a good percentage of their games against Protoss. | ||
KizZBG
u gotta skate8152 Posts
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Zinbiel
Sweden878 Posts
On a serious note, hopefully Lux will use winners league as a reason to snap out of his slump and give JD and July some help at destroying the lesser races! He is in both starleagues and his proleague results are pretty impressive (last week only), if he keeps this up it could be something good on the way. | ||
Geo.Rion
7375 Posts
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StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
its the best part of pro-league except the finals | ||
samachking
Bahrain4949 Posts
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
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Avidkeystamper
United States8551 Posts
On January 21 2009 15:54 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: Yarnc with an all-kill tonight Yeah, against your favorite team, why are you happy? | ||
FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 21 2009 16:05 Avidkeystamper wrote: Yeah, against your favorite team, why are you happy? i'm a fan of progaming in general, i just think MBC has the coolest players yarnc struggles with consistency, but both he and luxury are capable of great things. it makes me smile when a player like that gets his shit together and crushes some skulls. | ||
StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
Was hoping to see more from jaedong in lecaf vs estro :/ | ||
FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 21 2009 17:17 AnOth3rDAy wrote: As i said before i think this can really show some skill for the next PR. This is how good they are if they dont prepare for a specific opponent on a specific map i suppose. Anyway some names have just shined so far, luxury yarnc leta etc. Was hoping to see more from jaedong in lecaf vs estro :/ yep Winner's League format is the rawest form of competition, it has the highest overall skill requirement for prolonged success | ||
Jaeden
Romania1489 Posts
On January 21 2009 17:36 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: yep Winner's League format is the rawest form of competition, it has the highest overall skill requirement for prolonged success yes but, a lot of potentially good players may not have the chance to prove that they are good, since their teams may win without them... oh but, Fail Rank is a great idea !!! stork for #1! (since FailRrank shouldn`t include the worst players, or else way MuMyung would be imba. Instead it should include the players that FAILED to meet the expectations) | ||
Geo.Rion
7375 Posts
On January 21 2009 18:26 Jaeden wrote: yes but, a lot of potentially good players may not have the chance to prove that they are good, since their teams may win without them... oh but, Fail Rank is a great idea !!! stork for #1! (since FailRrank shouldn`t include the worst players, or else way MuMyung would be imba. Instead it should include the players that FAILED to meet the expectations) Stork is actaully fulfilling the expectations, (because of the OSL curse, 3-2 in final) he has to fall, so he's doing it in the most unqestionable style, no fail there. | ||
Jaeden
Romania1489 Posts
On January 21 2009 19:15 Geo.Rion wrote: Stork is actaully fulfilling the expectations, (because of the OSL curse, 3-2 in final) he has to fall, so he's doing it in the most unqestionable style, no fail there. Well, a whole lot of users picked him for the FPL, so it means that many were believing that he's not dead yet, and instead, he`s been a huge waste of 6 points | ||
rredtooth
5458 Posts
Next month's (or 1.5 month's) power rank will be so hard to make because you have to include the S-class talent while considering the success of the all-killers (like luxury and yarnc) who wouldn't normally make it but nevertheless performed great. | ||
LordWeird
United States3411 Posts
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Geo.Rion
7375 Posts
On January 21 2009 23:33 LordWeird wrote: Luxury has been playing so well lately. I hope he can keep it up and end up on next month's PR. The lack of Z has been concerning lately. Gogo Luxury! It seems that zergs found themsleves, more and more of them ae qualifing for the SLs and 2 all-kills up to now were done by zergs, not to mantion against high caliber teams | ||
Solidus_315
213 Posts
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d_so
Korea (South)3262 Posts
On January 20 2009 05:23 SerpentFlame wrote: Impressive, but nevertheless, the top-level skill he exhibited in that matchup so far is only mechanical. There are plenty of gamers who have the stellar mechanics needed for a matchup that they still suck at, and Leta has yet to prove himself as different. Yarnc and Luxury, for example, have always had ridiculous mutalisk harassment, but they still manage to lose a good percentage of their games against Protoss. how the fuck is map-wide vulture harass "mechanical"?. it wasnt the micro that was difficult, it was the game sense to alternatively hit different weak point across the map and before you parade around leta's loss to free, don't forget leta's ass raping of him a week or so prior | ||
MyLovelyLurker
France729 Posts
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muramasa
Canada1299 Posts
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SerpentFlame
400 Posts
On January 22 2009 08:08 d_so wrote: how the fuck is map-wide vulture harass "mechanical"?. it wasnt the micro that was difficult, it was the game sense to alternatively hit different weak point across the map and before you parade around leta's loss to free, don't forget leta's ass raping of him a week or so prior Leta didn't rape free's ass any harder than free raped leta's ass, and Leta hasn't been posting good results against top level Protoss. I never said Leta isn't good against protoss, but simply that he's no where near the S-class? Saying he raped free's ass once isn't enough evidence to derail his much more humiliating losses, when all of his wins versus Protoss players are less than sublime. And let's not forget that vulture harass is against Guemchi, who despite going 3-1 that night, hasn't done anything notable since the Protoss neo-king era (which was a damned long time ago). A reasonably good player will always look like he has excellent gamesense against a much weaker one (E.g, BackHo vs Firefist, Terato vs Freedom, Rock vs Mumyung, etc, etc.). That night wasn't S-class TvP. It also wasn't by any means a low-class TvP, but Leta still has a ways to go in that respect. EDIT: we're going to have one majorly inverted power rank next month if the trends that are happening in the WLPL continue. | ||
Plutonium
United States2217 Posts
I do look forward to more of July. There's no doubt in my mind that he is the best protoss killer in the world right now. I anticipate another OSL where he chews through a long line of Protosses like slices of ham on twelve-foot party sub sandwich. | ||
Geo.Rion
7375 Posts
On January 22 2009 11:33 Plutonium wrote: I'm not sure there's any Terrans at the moment out there who can beat the S-Class tosses. Flash and Leta might be able to go toe-to-toe on their very best days, but I don't see any sort of TvP god out there who can dominate with any sort of consistency. There's a whole lot of two-matchup wonders though, like Hwasin and FBH, but there's nobody who can do what Flash was doing on Katrina a year ago. I do look forward to more of July. There's no doubt in my mind that he is the best protoss killer in the world right now. I anticipate another OSL where he chews through a long line of Protosses like slices of ham on twelve-foot party sub sandwich. i would say the best toss-killer is Bisu, but fro the non-protosses July has a shot. So does Flash btw | ||
Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On January 22 2009 10:50 SerpentFlame wrote: Leta didn't rape free's ass any harder than free raped leta's ass, and Leta hasn't been posting good results against top level Protoss. I never said Leta isn't good against protoss, but simply that he's no where near the S-class? Saying he raped free's ass once isn't enough evidence to derail his much more humiliating losses, when all of his wins versus Protoss players are less than sublime. And let's not forget that vulture harass is against Guemchi, who despite going 3-1 that night, hasn't done anything notable since the Protoss neo-king era (which was a damned long time ago). A reasonably good player will always look like he has excellent gamesense against a much weaker one (E.g, BackHo vs Firefist, Terato vs Freedom, Rock vs Mumyung, etc, etc.). That night wasn't S-class TvP. It also wasn't by any means a low-class TvP, but Leta still has a ways to go in that respect. EDIT: we're going to have one majorly inverted power rank next month if the trends that are happening in the WLPL continue. The vulture sniping against Free is what I meant... And you have to factor in the imbalance of Colosseum. And if you go 14-5 in your weakest match-up in your last 19 games, that's pretty close to Bonjwa win%'s(iloveoov's TvT or Savior's ZvZ weren't really much better than that in their primes). | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On January 22 2009 10:49 muramasa wrote: Oh god this makes me giddy thinking bout this ^^July is currently on a 9 game win streak which is pretty impressive. If the Protoss players do their job of killing all the Terrans in the OSL, July could easily walk away as the first person with 4 OSL titles. His ZvP is just that good right now. The biggest question is whether he's been able to improve on his ZvT, or was his win vs FBH just a fluke. Nada for 4 MSLs, July for 4 OSLs in the same season! | ||
d_so
Korea (South)3262 Posts
On January 22 2009 10:50 SerpentFlame wrote: Leta didn't rape free's ass any harder than free raped leta's ass, and Leta hasn't been posting good results against top level Protoss. I never said Leta isn't good against protoss, but simply that he's no where near the S-class? Saying he raped free's ass once isn't enough evidence to derail his much more humiliating losses, when all of his wins versus Protoss players are less than sublime. And let's not forget that vulture harass is against Guemchi, who despite going 3-1 that night, hasn't done anything notable since the Protoss neo-king era (which was a damned long time ago). A reasonably good player will always look like he has excellent gamesense against a much weaker one (E.g, BackHo vs Firefist, Terato vs Freedom, Rock vs Mumyung, etc, etc.). That night wasn't S-class TvP. It also wasn't by any means a low-class TvP, but Leta still has a ways to go in that respect. EDIT: we're going to have one majorly inverted power rank next month if the trends that are happening in the WLPL continue. stop inflating/obfuscating your answers when you don't know what you're talking about. you say leta's vP success is strictly due to mechanics. you mention this specifically in reference to his play vs geumchi. my question, which you have yet to answer: wtF about vulture harass is mechanical? specifically, where was the "mechanics" in his match vs geumchi? simple answer is that microing mass vultures is easy and its effectiveness comes from game sense and positioning, not micro. leta's vulture harass owned that game cuz he constantly hit geumchi's weak points all across the map. it had nothing to do with mechanics. don't try to pigeonhole him as a "mechanical" player, even vs P, because it's simply not true. | ||
StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
Thats like iloveoov and savior had during their bonjwaprimes, except they kept it for almost 2 pages (not quite though). The big difference is that oov and savior got themselves a few badges from those wins too. If Leta wins one of the starleagues he'll most likely hit the highest ELO ever? He's 2nd now. | ||
SerpentFlame
400 Posts
On January 23 2009 06:36 d_so wrote: stop inflating/obfuscating your answers when you don't know what you're talking about. you say leta's vP success is strictly due to mechanics. you mention this specifically in reference to his play vs geumchi. my question, which you have yet to answer: wtF about vulture harass is mechanical? specifically, where was the "mechanics" in his match vs geumchi? simple answer is that microing mass vultures is easy and its effectiveness comes from game sense and positioning, not micro. leta's vulture harass owned that game cuz he constantly hit geumchi's weak points all across the map. it had nothing to do with mechanics. don't try to pigeonhole him as a "mechanical" player, even vs P, because it's simply not true. The post that I initially commented on said that Leta has no weaknesses. This is simply not true; even Flash and Bisu have shown a few pretty glaring weaknesses of late, and Leta is no different. The point I'm trying to make through this is simply that he hasn't been proven up there yet with even the modern By.Flash in TvP. Oops, I misread your point about vulture harass (by snipes I thought you meant Templar snipes, and somehow managed to misread your post after that). MY bad. Either way, one game vs Free isn't going to prove he's S-class v P when 4/5 times he gets steamrolled by players who are simply better at that matchup (and there are quite a few). I agree with you that he's an quickly improving and intelligent player; but even the almighty Emperor was never stellar when it came to TvP, and it doesn't look like Leta will be yet. Still, many very crappy players still have isolated incidents where they somehow show off great gamesense, so even his game vs Free was an isolated incident; Leta hasn't separated himself from the pack in that matchup just yet. | ||
AzureEye
United States1360 Posts
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ilbh
Brazil1606 Posts
also nada, leta, luxury......... | ||
Avidkeystamper
United States8551 Posts
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Manifesto7
Osaka26925 Posts
On January 23 2009 06:54 AnOth3rDAy wrote: First page of Letas results is 32-8. Thats like iloveoov and savior had during their bonjwaprimes, except they kept it for almost 2 pages (not quite though). The big difference is that oov and savior got themselves a few badges from those wins too. If Leta wins one of the starleagues he'll most likely hit the highest ELO ever? He's 2nd now. Yes, but back in those days players played a looooooooot less games, and the games they played were a loooooot more important. | ||
DrainX
Sweden3187 Posts
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StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
On January 26 2009 07:56 Manifesto7 wrote: Yes, but back in those days players played a looooooooot less games, and the games they played were a loooooot more important. yeah, hence a few badges | ||
Lukeeze[zR]
Switzerland6838 Posts
On January 25 2009 04:48 ilbh wrote: sorry, but where is savior and july? the top 2 players performance in the last month, imo. also nada, leta, luxury......... savior last 10 games : 5-5 won vs zero, bisu, baby, calm, tester lost vs young, best, luxury, frozean and fbh he's far from being top10 material july is another story though <3 he's the true maestro of zerg | ||
Jaeden
Romania1489 Posts
On January 26 2009 22:41 Lukeeze[zR] wrote: savior last 10 games : 5-5 won vs zero, bisu, baby, calm, tester lost vs young, best, luxury, frozean and fbh he's far from being top10 material july is another story though <3 he's the true maestro of zerg fail ... ontopic: imo the January's PR will be even weirder than the last one... | ||
Geo.Rion
7375 Posts
On January 27 2009 03:42 Jaeden wrote: fail ... ontopic: imo the January's PR will be even weirder than the last one... the January PR gonna come out in March ^^ | ||
Lukeeze[zR]
Switzerland6838 Posts
On January 27 2009 03:42 Jaeden wrote: fail ... ontopic: imo the January's PR will be even weirder than the last one... WOWLOLZYOUPOSTED"FAIL" LOL !!!1 | ||
StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
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29 fps
United States5717 Posts
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Dr.Green
Philippines264 Posts
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On January 27 2009 15:04 Dr.Green wrote: i dont think flash deserved to be higher than bisu. he even lost a series to bisu at GOM and a proleague game. I agree. Savior should thus be #1. | ||
raga4ka
Bulgaria5676 Posts
On January 27 2009 15:04 Dr.Green wrote: i dont think flash deserved to be higher than bisu. he even lost a series to bisu at GOM and a proleague game. But he didn't fell an his face in both OSL and MSL as Bisu did ... | ||
tilhorizon
Germany191 Posts
for a better more realistic powerrank just watch teamliquid tlpd index player the actually elo rank at the moment its 1.bisu 2.leta 3.flash ,,, and so on | ||
Geo.Rion
7375 Posts
On January 28 2009 04:38 tilhorizon wrote: probably my post will be erased but who cares this powerrank is a joke not the first time for a better more realistic powerrank just watch teamliquid tlpd index player the actually elo rank at the moment its 1.bisu 2.leta 3.flash ,,, and so on ELO isnt much more accurate than the PR because it s way too objective. PR of course is way too subjective. ELO does not take into consideration that you are in all of the leauges or out from all. 2 losses which makes you leave an SL early on are decreasing your point but the real harm you will feel later when others boost their point by making into the semis but you dont have the chanse, so that doesnt lead to a real definition of your current skill level. Also doesnt count face-to-face encounters. You rape someone 3-0 you might be behind him easily. ELO also ignores if you are good against all the races. If your vZ is weak but you meat like 3 zergs in a month from 15 matches that wont hurt too bad your ELO, even though you're shitty in an MU and you most likely wont win anything nor preform an all-kill in PL. I hope i could express myself in an understandable way. The current ranks look realistic at the first sight but check some details. Forgg is higher than Mind, Hwasin, Fantasy, July, Effort, Kal, Anytime.... even though he plyas like shit recently, etc... | ||
JohnnyCash
France244 Posts
I agree too. Young should therefore be #1. | ||
Proposal
United States1310 Posts
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Jaeden
Romania1489 Posts
On January 29 2009 01:34 Proposal wrote: weird PR. jangbi #1 just because..? Leta also seems a lil bit too high. late late late...but correct howeveeeeeeer, January's PR is gonna be a bitch | ||
GGQ
Canada2653 Posts
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tilhorizon
Germany191 Posts
On January 28 2009 04:55 Geo.Rion wrote: ELO isnt much more accurate than the PR because it s way too objective. PR of course is way too subjective. ELO does not take into consideration that you are in all of the leauges or out from all. 2 losses which makes you leave an SL early on are decreasing your point but the real harm you will feel later when others boost their point by making into the semis but you dont have the chanse, so that doesnt lead to a real definition of your current skill level. Also doesnt count face-to-face encounters. You rape someone 3-0 you might be behind him easily. ELO also ignores if you are good against all the races. If your vZ is weak but you meat like 3 zergs in a month from 15 matches that wont hurt too bad your ELO, even though you're shitty in an MU and you most likely wont win anything nor preform an all-kill in PL. I hope i could express myself in an understandable way. The current ranks look realistic at the first sight but check some details. Forgg is higher than Mind, Hwasin, Fantasy, July, Effort, Kal, Anytime.... even though he plyas like shit recently, etc... i see your point but for me the powerrank is what player is at the moment the most powerfull the strongest player and if you let bisu play a best of 7 vs any opponent at the moment he is still favorite to win so he nr 1 you cant say that about any other player | ||
Avidkeystamper
United States8551 Posts
On January 29 2009 05:45 tilhorizon wrote: and if you let bisu play a best of 7 vs any opponent at the moment he is still favorite to win so he nr 1 you cant say that about any other player He's not No1 because clearly not everybody agrees with that sentiment. | ||
iloahz
United States964 Posts
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raga4ka
Bulgaria5676 Posts
On January 29 2009 05:45 tilhorizon wrote: i see your point but for me the powerrank is what player is at the moment the most powerfull the strongest player and if you let bisu play a best of 7 vs any opponent at the moment he is still favorite to win so he nr 1 you cant say that about any other player No he is not the favourite vs any opponent , because he hasn't beat more then 3 strong players in a series recently ... On January 29 2009 07:27 zhaoli86 wrote: wait until bisu wins both GSL and OSL he has a good shot at GSL , but in OSL he has a chance about the same as almost anyone in it .... | ||
Sentenal
United States12395 Posts
Now Bisu is back in the OSL, and he went 6-0 in the same night. He broke the 2300 ELO mark again. He is 15-1 in his last PvTs, and that is against Terrans like Flash, Mind, Sea, and Skyhigh. He is 18-4 in his last PvPs, against people like Jangbi, Free, Anytime, and Stork. Right now he has clearly the best PvT and PvP. He is the favorite to win GOM S2. Right now its just that his PvZ is uncharacteristally poor. So he needs to step that back up. If any Protoss can reinvent their PvZ and turn it around, its Bisu. So I think Bisu should make a return to the top 3 for the next rank, assuming the crap that got him out of the MSL and OSL in the first place stops. | ||
Dgtl
Canada889 Posts
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Sentenal
United States12395 Posts
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Avidkeystamper
United States8551 Posts
On January 29 2009 13:20 Sentenal wrote: Bisu claims that he still has good PvZ, and it just hasn't show in his recent televised games. He needs to prove it, though. But maps like Tears of the Moon will make that hard for him Honestly, even with maps like Tears of the Moon, Bisu should have been able to beat by.hero. Medusa gives him the advantage too. Let's hope he gets into another all-zerg OSL group. XD | ||
Sentenal
United States12395 Posts
On January 29 2009 13:28 Avidkeystamper wrote: Honestly, even with maps like Tears of the Moon, Bisu should have been able to beat by.hero. Medusa gives him the advantage too. Let's hope he gets into another all-zerg OSL group. XD I guess we will see how Tears of the Moon develops, balance wise. It might become the PvZ equivalent of how bad Medusa is for TvP. Its on track for that, with ZvP being 10-2 thus far. | ||
5tarscream
Singapore459 Posts
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Oystein
Norway1602 Posts
On January 29 2009 12:50 Dgtl wrote: Bisu kind of flipped the switch on his match-ups. I remember when he was average at pvp decent at pvt and amazing at pvz. Now he is amazing at pvp, amazing at pvt and shit at pvz :O Why do people keep on saying he has a shit PvZ.... Sure hes hit a rough patch right now, but before this he went 13-3 in his last 16 PvZ games demolishing Zergs left and right. People need to look beyond the stats and look at the way he actually loses games (I havent watched the zero game yet so he could be awful there for all I know) Sure he did a "bad" choice by going FE on tears vs hero, but according to himself its extremely hard to win with 1base and this map is looking to become a PvZ graveyard. In the medusa game, sure he didnt play up to his max potential but he didnt play bad either, Hero just stepped up his game and played an amazing game. Vs Savior he did a sloppy mistake losing his scoutprobe with eventually led to savior being able to do the speedling break and making him spend the rest of the game trying to catch up and eventually fail, vs Luxury he lost to a 5pool after scouting on the last position and there is really no shame in that and as like vs savior he had to fight and uphill battle that he eventually lost, once again Luxury played an excellent game with well timed tech switches and Bisu did in no way play bad, he just got outplayed. I might be a blinded fanboy of bisu and fail to see his shortcomings, but I honestly believe his PvZ is almost/equally as strong as before and that hes made a few sloppy mistakes and had his Zerg opponents step up their game in a few cases. And in general I think people are way to fast at saying people suck in XvsY just because they lose a few games, when often the case is that the opposition have stepped up their game and played great. At the end of the day todays StarCraft is a sick competitive and volatile game that often takes place on a razor edge where its extremely hard to stay at top and not dropping games. Like all the people who believed jaedong sucked ZvT just because he went 2-8 over a 10game span. Have he fucked up and dropped some games and not played his usual god mode PvZ? sure. Do he suck at PvZ? I highly doubt it. | ||
traced
1739 Posts
it's so weird because he was playing so fucking good just a week before, versus zerg. i dunno. he probably needs to make a few adjustments, the burden of proof is on him. but even though his vz is a hopeful question mark, his other two matchups are basically auto-wins. i think he has to be in the running for first, should he win gom. i could see the case for leta or jaedong, though. | ||
Flamboyant
United States57 Posts
BISU HWAITING!!!!!!!!!!! http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/players/125_Bisu/games 6-0 DROP IN ONE FUCKING NIGHT IS THIS GUY EVER TIRED????? BISU IS A FUCKING BEASTSUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU | ||
Avidkeystamper
United States8551 Posts
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Geo.Rion
7375 Posts
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Magic84
Russian Federation1381 Posts
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Djabanete
United States2783 Posts
On January 30 2009 01:51 Oystein wrote: Have he fucked up and dropped some games and not played his usual god mode PvZ? sure. Do he suck at PvZ? I highly doubt it. A sensible post in the PR thread?!?! *grabs generator, 2-liter bottle of Gatorade, and PBJ sandwiches; hides in basement and tries to outlast the End of Days, the Return of the Dinosaurs, and the subsequent plague and zombie apocalypse.* | ||
Jaeden
Romania1489 Posts
On February 01 2009 04:21 Djabanete wrote: A sensible post in the PR thread?!?! *grabs generator, 2-liter bottle of Gatorade, and PBJ sandwiches; hides in basement and tries to outlast the End of Days, the Return of the Dinosaurs, and the subsequent plague and zombie apocalypse.* dude u forgot about the aliens' invasion...shame on u | ||
Djabanete
United States2783 Posts
On February 01 2009 04:27 Jaeden wrote: dude u forgot about the aliens' invasion...shame on u You mean FakeSteve? disclaimer: I like the Power Rank =) | ||
Avidkeystamper
United States8551 Posts
On January 30 2009 01:51 Oystein wrote: Like all the people who believed jaedong sucked ZvT just because he went 2-8 over a 10game span. Have he fucked up and dropped some games and not played his usual god mode PvZ? sure. Do he suck at PvZ? I highly doubt it. Yes, and people had a right to say that about JD until he raped Hwasin in their Bo5. Likewise, we can say that Bisu's PvZ is suspect and many people won't have confidence in it until he shows otherwise. Like beating the two zergs in his OSL group. | ||
Oystein
Norway1602 Posts
On February 01 2009 04:21 Djabanete wrote: A sensible post in the PR thread?!?! *grabs generator, 2-liter bottle of Gatorade, and PBJ sandwiches; hides in basement and tries to outlast the End of Days, the Return of the Dinosaurs, and the subsequent plague and zombie apocalypse.* I never wrote about how I believe he should place in the powerrank, I wrote about people screaming that he sucks just cuz he dropped the ball a few games + his opposition brought their a-game. Im just tired of all people who keeps on saying people suck at XvY or just suck in general when there really aint no good reason to say it, just like all the people who kept on saying FBH had become gosu in TvP and they didnt realize it was a hot streak of games with a bit of luck\good bo`s ect and that it was an anomalyti not a good reflect on his TvP skill and that you need to look beyond just the results. Another example is how lots of people think Estro is awful, when they got to ace games in most of their games and came damn close to winning lots of matches. Edit : missread the post I quoted but what I said in this post I still believe too be true so I decided not to remove the entire post. | ||
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