Also, I was arguing that JWD's criteria for dropping Flash and keeping Bisu in his rank is rather faulty. Not to say that means flash is the most deserving of the rank, but hell Iris had a way better month than Bisu and the only thing keeping Bisu on that list in the article itself was the "He's got a lot of practice time, so obviously Iris is boned," sentiment.
Power Rank 08/04/2009 - Page 13
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
Also, I was arguing that JWD's criteria for dropping Flash and keeping Bisu in his rank is rather faulty. Not to say that means flash is the most deserving of the rank, but hell Iris had a way better month than Bisu and the only thing keeping Bisu on that list in the article itself was the "He's got a lot of practice time, so obviously Iris is boned," sentiment. | ||
ghostWriter
United States3302 Posts
Flash definitely doesn't suck (although I think that fantasy is definitely the #1 terran). And actually bisu's game against fantasy was pvt excellence. fantasy couldn't do anything and his famous vulture/2tanks in dropship play was completely nullified. Also, losing to zero's zvp is nothing to be ashamed of, zero is a fantastic player. Basically bisu's play didn't show weakness (although if the iris vs bisu series happened earlier, of course bisu would fall down a step or two and iris would be bumped up). And actually iris's month wasn't too great, with losses to perfectman and odin. When you are a top player, you are expected to beat everyone else (although it is impossible to win every game, that's what is expected of you). | ||
TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
On August 07 2009 23:40 ghostWriter wrote: Well the iris/bisu series happened after the power rank was up... Well yeah, I just said JWD ranked Bisu on his chances in the upcoming match up vs Iris (which was a dumb prediction then and a dumb prediction in retrospect), but Bisu went 2-2, since then, and it wasn't a great 2-2 either. Flash definitely doesn't suck (although I think that fantasy is definitely the #1 terran). And actually bisu's game against fantasy was pvt excellence. fantasy couldn't do anything and his famous vulture/2tanks in dropship play was completely nullified. Also, losing to zero's zvp is nothing to be ashamed of, zero is a fantastic player. Basically bisu's play didn't show weakness (although if the iris vs bisu series happened earlier, of course bisu would fall down a step or two and iris would be bumped up). And actually iris's month wasn't too great, with losses to perfectman and odin. When you are a top player, you are expected to beat everyone else (although it is impossible to win every game, that's what is expected of you). Well, one win on Fantasy was pure cheese, the other one was solid but Fantasy wasn't playing as good as he usually does. Oh, so losing to Zero is forgiveable, but losing to Kwanro, a zerg just as strong as Zero, isn't? Because other than that, Flash lost to no one, and Bisu lost to Iris -- yeah, the guy who got beat by perfectman and Odin. It's all such painfully messed up logic, but it just comes down to holding Bisu to far different standards than Flash. That he didn't move a spot, while flash dropped 6 or more (if CNBC is in order of who's best to who's worst) is completely backwards. I mean, Flash won 4 more games than Bisu, and lost the same amount. Their losses are fairly comparable (Kwanro twice, to Zero and Iris), and so are their wins (fantasy twice vs effort, July 3 times with no losses, TheZerg(Not impressive but it's there), and Kwanro once). Flash's second loss to Kwanro wasn't even bad play, unlike his win and his first loss. By any reason, if Flash is completely off the PR, then Bisu shouldn't be as high as he is for reasons that are literally "hypothetical." | ||
ghostWriter
United States3302 Posts
The fact is, Bisu did not look like he wasn't top 3 in the world, while flash did not look like a top 3 player. Bisu's other loss was to a 2 fact that Iris pulled off very well and it was in the quarterfinals of the MSL, whereas flash didn't get there. | ||
L0thar
987 Posts
On August 08 2009 07:03 ghostWriter wrote: The fact is, Bisu did not look like he wasn't top 3 in the world, while flash did not look like a top 3 player. I think nobody has problem with Flash not being in top 3, but rather with Flash not being in PR at all. | ||
ghostWriter
United States3302 Posts
On August 08 2009 08:13 adelarge wrote: I think nobody has problem with Flash not being in top 3, but rather with Flash not being in PR at all. It's because he didn't perform to his own individual standard. Flash, as a top 3 player did not dominate as he should have. If you watch the games of all the players on the power rank, they all performed equal to or greater than (particularly type-b) they should have. Although flash won, he played below his level, which is why he wasn't on the power rank. | ||
TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
You, yourself, are doing exactly what I'm accusing JWD of doing -- cherrypicking in favor of Bisu and unfairly judging Flash in comparison. You overrate Bisu. I'm not saying you underrate Flash -- it's fair to criticize him for his losses, be they failed cheese or absymal vZ play, but you don't criticize Bisu. You don't criticize him for playing like garbage against Iris's 2fact(the one 90% of everyone in the world following pro SC knew was the most likely build). You don't criticize him for relying on cheese to get by Fantasy in set 1. You don't criticize him for getting completely duped by Zero, even though Zero going Queens is like Fantasy using vultures. You only excuse his losses and trumpet his wins. This would be fine, if you did the same for Flash as an 'impartial' response, excusing his losses as either flukes or powerful play by his opponents, but that's something you refuse to do for Flash that you constantly do for Bisu. The bias is pungent -- whether it's subconscious because you expect more from Flash than Bisu, I don't know, but you're far from impartial here. I mean seriously, you just called outsider "equal," in TvZ, at a 55% advantage to Z over T, but HBR is imba for zerg at...a 55% advantage to Z over P. There's plenty more, but this is the most obnoxious disparity in your claim for 'impartial' that you JUST posted. | ||
Djabanete
United States2783 Posts
On August 08 2009 08:33 ghostWriter wrote: It's because he didn't perform to his own individual standard. Flash, as a top 3 player did not dominate as he should have. If you watch the games of all the players on the power rank, they all performed equal to or greater than (particularly type-b) they should have. Although flash won, he played below his level, which is why he wasn't on the power rank. Wow, you even said it yourself. Flash is being held to different standards than everyone else in this PR. | ||
ghostWriter
United States3302 Posts
On August 08 2009 08:35 TwoToneTerran wrote: edit: you know what, I'm kind of tired of going in circles here, I'm gonna lay this as flat as I can. You, yourself, are doing exactly what I'm accusing JWD of doing -- cherrypicking in favor of Bisu and unfairly judging Flash in comparison. You overrate Bisu. I'm not saying you underrate Flash -- it's fair to criticize him for his losses, be they failed cheese or absymal vZ play, but you don't criticize Bisu. You don't criticize him for playing like garbage against Iris's 2fact(the one 90% of everyone in the world following pro SC knew was the most likely build). You don't criticize him for relying on cheese to get by Fantasy in set 1. You don't criticize him for getting completely duped by Zero, even though Zero going Queens is like Fantasy using vultures. You only excuse his losses and trumpet his wins. This would be fine, if you did the same for Flash as an 'impartial' response, excusing his losses as either flukes or powerful play by his opponents, but that's something you refuse to do for Flash that you constantly do for Bisu. The bias is pungent -- whether it's subconscious because you expect more from Flash than Bisu, I don't know, but you're far from impartial here. There's nothing wrong with cheese, it's a powerful weapon in the psychological battle. He didn't really get duped by zero, zero just played exceptionally well and it's hard to fault bisu for that. He failed pretty badly in the game against Iris but his other game against Fantasy shows that his PvT is nearly flawless. He got greedy in the game against Iris, even though he knew Iris was going 2fact. He should have went for a more military-oriented build. Since JWD is not here, I'm just trying to argue for his choices, although he didn't ask me to. He placed the players where they were and I'm just doing the best I can to defend his decisions. Truthfully, if it were up to me, I'd put it as 1) Jaedong 2) calm 3) effort 4) fantasy 5) canata 6) skyhigh 7) iris 8) flash 9) type-b 10) yarnc, something along those lines | ||
TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
And anyhow, I've taken issue with JWD's ranking criteria plenty, but you've brought up...different arguments that run the same way. JWD's argument in thread was almost exactly along the lines of "Hypothetical Bisu," and I mean, come on now. | ||
ghostWriter
United States3302 Posts
after like 5 pages of basically me vs you and a few others like tree.hugger or whatnot, i'm tired. | ||
EvoChamber
France2505 Posts
well, since ghost started it, here's my ideal PR for this past month. 1. Jaedong 2. Fantasy 3. Effort 4. Bisu 5. Iris 6. Skyhigh 7. Yarnc 8. Flash 9. type-b 10. Calm CBNC: Canata, Leta, Zero, Stork | ||
Severedevil
United States4795 Posts
Look at the vs. Terran ELO, and you see a list of people who are beating Flash, plus some Terran players he's taken to school, over the past six months. Reduce the time period to five months, and the difference is sharper... Flash loses ALL his wins over good ZvT except a BBS vs. Effort. (Even at six months, he has NO wins against good PvT.) Yeah. | ||
darktreb
United States3014 Posts
On August 08 2009 11:08 Severedevil wrote: Look at vs. Protoss ELO, and you see a list of people Bisu's beating over the past six months. Look at the vs. Terran ELO, and you see a list of people who are beating Flash, plus some Terran players he's taken to school, over the past six months. Reduce the time period to five months, and the difference is sharper... Flash loses ALL his wins over good ZvT except a BBS vs. Effort. (Even at six months, he has NO wins against good PvT.) Yeah. That's a nice bit of statistics massaging you did there. You do know the ELO goes both ways right? Check Flash's ELO in all three matchups ... not exactly shabby. One BBS against Effort and 3-0ing July doesn't singlehandedly make that work. But yeah, let's go with an arbitrary time period, and an arbitrary concept of "good ZvT"/"good PvT". I think this thread has gotten pretty hilarious - Flash fans are just trying to do the following: a) defend him from the idiots who think he's bad b) explain that he's held to a higher standard than virtually everyone in progaming (certainly all but JD ... I used to think Bisu was held to a high standard but in reality he really isn't) Note that many Flash fans (at least myself, TwoToneTerran, and a few others) have even said that we think it's OK he's not in the rank. Let's just stop amplifying his failures by a factor of 10 relative to everyone else. Especially the Calm/Kal games ... JD < Stork -> JD < Light -> Oz out of first place anyone?? | ||
ghostWriter
United States3302 Posts
oz is in the finals anyway, kt didn't even make it into postseason. it's totally different. | ||
EvoChamber
France2505 Posts
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ghostWriter
United States3302 Posts
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Carnac
Germany / USA16648 Posts
On August 08 2009 18:52 EvoChamber wrote: HAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAs a strategic genius Flash requires way more time to prepare for matches than Jaedong, whose mechanics allow him to adapt to a multitude of different situations within a very brief time period. Thus Flash's 54-19 PL record cost him far more in terms of progress in individual leagues than Jaedong's 54-20. | ||
TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
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Hot_Bid
Braavos36362 Posts
On August 08 2009 18:52 EvoChamber wrote: Sorry, but I don't think that "not being Jaedong" is sufficient evidence to prove that he's a bad player. Flash has had a 68% winrate since the new year, falling behind only Bisu and Jaedong. PRs aside, people really need to stop blaming Flash for being on a bad team. As a strategic genius Flash requires way more time to prepare for matches than Jaedong, whose mechanics allow him to adapt to a multitude of different situations within a very brief time period. Thus Flash's 54-19 PL record cost him far more in terms of progress in individual leagues than Jaedong's 54-20. The fact that Flash's efforts for his team went for nothing should, if anything, incline you to judge him with more compassion instead of driving you to harsher criticism. i strongly disagree i think flash requires the least time out of all pros to practice, specifically because in two matchups he can do the same build over and over and still win. flash's strength is his defensive micro, gamesense, and macro. he uses these in just about every TvP to turtle to 200. its the same build, just adapting to whatever the protoss can throw at him. on the other hand jaedong has shown time and again that if things don't go the way he plans, he falls apart. it takes him one or two games to get accustomed to strategies, and its obvious that he is a very preparation-based player. he practices the hardest. not saying this is a bad thing, as being a hard worker is very good for your career, but i don't think you can attribute flash's slump in individual leagues to any sort of overpreparation for PL. flash is slumping because he's slumping. yes, he was good, the best, for a short period of time, but i think he's largely overrated in terms of achievement and ability. there's no doubt he is/was the best terran at some point. but he didn't hold it long, and i'd definitely put fantasy over him now, in at least 2 of the 3 matchups. i think jaedong can't deal with new builds. he can't adapt well to new situations. this is why he's so strong in zvz and bo5s. the first is a mu where the same thing happens over and over and he can just use his speed and micro to win. the second is a situation where he can feel out the opponent in the first few games and then adjust. standard games = jaedong wins. nonstandard games = jaedong tries, often unsuccessfully, to adapt. examples: vs skyhigh (twice), first few games OSL finals vs fantasy, vs canata (he plays mech for the first time really), vs movie, and + Show Spoiler [PL] + vs fantasy in PL | ||
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