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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On August 08 2009 20:03 ghostWriter wrote: well i feel that jaedong/bisu/flash are the same level but flash hasn't gone as far as the other two in anything except gom. they are "s-class" players but flash didn't perform like an "s-class" player. flash's mechanics are just as good as jaedong's if not better and you can't use the differences in the races to justify his lackluster performance. You could, however, arrive at the conclusion that Flash is only 17, and that Jaedong and Bisu are 19. Flash won his first title when he was only 16 and has been held to impossible standards by everyone ever since- especially KT, netizens and TL. There is no way a 16year old can live under those burdens and continue to win league. With time, Flash will grow, and he will mature into a inhuman beast which will destroy everything.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On August 08 2009 23:36 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2009 18:52 EvoChamber wrote: Sorry, but I don't think that "not being Jaedong" is sufficient evidence to prove that he's a bad player. Flash has had a 68% winrate since the new year, falling behind only Bisu and Jaedong. PRs aside, people really need to stop blaming Flash for being on a bad team. As a strategic genius Flash requires way more time to prepare for matches than Jaedong, whose mechanics allow him to adapt to a multitude of different situations within a very brief time period. Thus Flash's 54-19 PL record cost him far more in terms of progress in individual leagues than Jaedong's 54-20. The fact that Flash's efforts for his team went for nothing should, if anything, incline you to judge him with more compassion instead of driving you to harsher criticism. i strongly disagree i think flash requires the least time out of all pros to practice, specifically because in two matchups he can do the same build over and over and still win. flash's strength is his defensive micro, gamesense, and macro. he uses these in just about every TvP to turtle to 200. its the same build, just adapting to whatever the protoss can throw at him. I don't think Flash practices his builds as much as any other progamer, but at the end of the day because he rarely varies it up I think he has to put in more time to practice than others. Because his style is so reaction based he needs to be able to adapt at will; and that requires immense practice in every possible scenario. I think you really underrate the work required to "just adapt" to whatever a protoss is doing.
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On August 08 2009 23:37 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2009 20:03 ghostWriter wrote: well i feel that jaedong/bisu/flash are the same level but flash hasn't gone as far as the other two in anything except gom. they are "s-class" players but flash didn't perform like an "s-class" player. flash's mechanics are just as good as jaedong's if not better and you can't use the differences in the races to justify his lackluster performance. You could, however, arrive at the conclusion that Flash is only 17, and that Jaedong and Bisu are 19. Flash won his first title when he was only 16 and has been held to impossible standards by everyone ever since- especially KT, netizens and TL. There is no way a 16year old can live under those burdens and continue to win league. With time, Flash will grow, and he will mature into a inhuman beast which will destroy everything.
it's very true, but he set himself up for it ever by playing that well and turning into a monster. if you raise people's expectations like that, you have to expect people to continue expecting great things from you no matter how old you are.
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Didn't Flash say that he thinks through every possible scenario? I'm sure he also follows that up with practice.
+ Show Spoiler +Also, Fantasy just definitely proved his TvZ, dismantling Jaedong when it mattered the most (whether involving cheese or not). He'll hold the #1 terran position for a while now regardless of what happens in the OSL.
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On August 08 2009 23:50 okum wrote:Didn't Flash say that he thinks through every possible scenario? I'm sure he also follows that up with practice. + Show Spoiler +Also, Fantasy just definitely proved his TvZ, dismantling Jaedong when it mattered the most (whether involving cheese or not). He'll hold the #1 terran position for a while now regardless of what happens in the OSL. Actually, only when involving cheese.
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On August 09 2009 00:13 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2009 23:50 okum wrote:Didn't Flash say that he thinks through every possible scenario? I'm sure he also follows that up with practice. + Show Spoiler +Also, Fantasy just definitely proved his TvZ, dismantling Jaedong when it mattered the most (whether involving cheese or not). He'll hold the #1 terran position for a while now regardless of what happens in the OSL. Actually, only when involving cheese.
+ Show Spoiler +Game 1 lol?
If the JD-fantasy series is anything other than a one-sided blowout by the Tyrant, fantasy might have a comfy #1 PR on his hands.
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On August 09 2009 00:29 Nylan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2009 00:13 Shikyo wrote:On August 08 2009 23:50 okum wrote:Didn't Flash say that he thinks through every possible scenario? I'm sure he also follows that up with practice. + Show Spoiler +Also, Fantasy just definitely proved his TvZ, dismantling Jaedong when it mattered the most (whether involving cheese or not). He'll hold the #1 terran position for a while now regardless of what happens in the OSL. Actually, only when involving cheese. + Show Spoiler +Game 1 lol?
If the JD-fantasy series is anything other than a one-sided blowout by the Tyrant, fantasy might have a comfy #1 PR on his hands.
agreed, he really came through.
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On August 08 2009 23:36 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2009 18:52 EvoChamber wrote: Sorry, but I don't think that "not being Jaedong" is sufficient evidence to prove that he's a bad player. Flash has had a 68% winrate since the new year, falling behind only Bisu and Jaedong. PRs aside, people really need to stop blaming Flash for being on a bad team. As a strategic genius Flash requires way more time to prepare for matches than Jaedong, whose mechanics allow him to adapt to a multitude of different situations within a very brief time period. Thus Flash's 54-19 PL record cost him far more in terms of progress in individual leagues than Jaedong's 54-20. The fact that Flash's efforts for his team went for nothing should, if anything, incline you to judge him with more compassion instead of driving you to harsher criticism. i strongly disagree i think flash requires the least time out of all pros to practice, specifically because in two matchups he can do the same build over and over and still win. flash's strength is his defensive micro, gamesense, and macro. he uses these in just about every TvP to turtle to 200. its the same build, just adapting to whatever the protoss can throw at him. on the other hand jaedong has shown time and again that if things don't go the way he plans, he falls apart. it takes him one or two games to get accustomed to strategies, and its obvious that he is a very preparation-based player. he practices the hardest. not saying this is a bad thing, as being a hard worker is very good for your career, but i don't think you can attribute flash's slump in individual leagues to any sort of overpreparation for PL. flash is slumping because he's slumping. yes, he was good, the best, for a short period of time, but i think he's largely overrated in terms of achievement and ability. there's no doubt he is/was the best terran at some point. but he didn't hold it long, and i'd definitely put fantasy over him now, in at least 2 of the 3 matchups. i think jaedong can't deal with new builds. he can't adapt well to new situations. this is why he's so strong in zvz and bo5s. the first is a mu where the same thing happens over and over and he can just use his speed and micro to win. the second is a situation where he can feel out the opponent in the first few games and then adjust. standard games = jaedong wins. nonstandard games = jaedong tries, often unsuccessfully, to adapt. examples: vs skyhigh (twice), first few games OSL finals vs fantasy, vs canata (he plays mech for the first time really), vs movie, and + Show Spoiler [PL] +
You know, now that I think about it, you're very right about Jaedong's weaknesses. Jaedong does have a lot of trouble with new builds. He'll lose games, but once he's seen the build a few times he will make the necessary adaptations. There's sort of a covert war between Jaedong and the Terran think tank at SKT1 where T1 takes the strategic initiative while Jaedong is on the defensive. If they throw enough funky builds at him like the bunker/vulture/wraith cc stuff Canata was throwing at him or the 2rax opening fantasy showed off today they can checkmate him strategically and negate all the tactical advantages that his perfect mechanics would otherwise provide him. The catch is that no build will work for long. Given time Jaedong does adapt to new styles of play. He creates new forms of standard play and his mechanics can work their magic again. They (Boxer/oov/fantasy) will take games off of him only so long as they keep making innovative builds, which I quite frankly think is great for the game as a whole. I do think that Jaedong will win out in the end, but he'll do it a lot faster if he starts taking some strategic initiative of his own instead of going through the same grueling cycle of infection/immunization.
That's why I'm really glad that Effort's stepped up recently, since with Savior backing him he's far more inclined to focus on strategy (though his mechanics are excellent as well). If Effort comes up with anything in ZvT (because of Jaedong (and Yellow's huge morale-boosting win against Bisu) ZvP is slowly reverting towards an almost pre-revolutionary level of Zerg imbalance, there's no great need for innovation there), Jaedong can adopt it and execute it equally well, if not better. Jaedong cut his teeth during the Savior era using Savior's builds, and there's no reason he can't do the same with regards to Effort, even if it means reverting back to a 3hatch-centered playstyle.
I do take issue with some of what you said about Flash though. True, his mechanics and game sense are sufficient to own lesser players in the Proleague without too much trouble. But that doesn't mean that he can skip practice for Proleague in the least, because players are more inclined to do crazy builds against him there just because they know they can't compete with him tactically (recall that the first crack in his brief reign of dominance came when Best went 2base norobo carriers against him on Colosseum). Since he plays virtually every ace match for KT he often has to prepare for more than one matchup on the ace map, which eats into his time even further. It's a testament to his dedication that he can post the kind of results he does in PL, and a testament to the limits of his dedication that he can't progress in individual leagues while playing PL nonstop. The caliber of players in the solo leagues is high enough that Flash can't just coast on his mechanics/game sense. If he doesn't have the time to prepare for every possible situation ahead of him (and that is definitely his style, it's why he never scouts), then there will be games like the one against Yarnc in OSL where he gets caught with his pants down by cheese or aggressive gambits.
KT definitely hurts Flash by leaning on him too much. If Flash played for a deeper team like SKT or Samsung or STX or CJ I think he would have one or two more titles than he does right now simply because he would have much more of the time he needs to ponder everything thoroughly before solo league games. What's worse is that the situation sort of feeds itself, as the other KT players grow accustomed to having Flash bail them out time and time again (similar to what happened to OZ with Jaedong in PL R4 and R5) and give less effort than they otherwise would have. Not to mention that with such a workload there's no way Flash will find enough time to add new innovations to the metagame, which he clearly both does and enjoys doing (don't see Carriers much anymore). Fantasy is better right now because he has a wonderful group of people backing him up. He has the best coach, two ex-bonjwa of the same race with all the firsthand experience that that implies, and Bisu, Best, and Canata as reliable support in PL. Fantasy's in a situation where his natural talents are nurtured and his natural weaknesses are weeded out or hidden so well that they're not a liability (the whole mech/valkyrie trend was developed to make his then-middling bio control a non-factor in TvZ). It's hardly surprising that as time passes he has surpassed Flash, who doesn't have even one of the advantages mentioned above working in his favor.
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On August 08 2009 23:50 okum wrote:Didn't Flash say that he thinks through every possible scenario? I'm sure he also follows that up with practice. + Show Spoiler +Also, Fantasy just definitely proved his TvZ, dismantling Jaedong when it mattered the most (whether involving cheese or not). He'll hold the #1 terran position for a while now regardless of what happens in the OSL.
+ Show Spoiler +Dude 8rax is not cheese because you can fail to do any damage and still be in a great position.
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8rax bunker rush is cheese, don't even kid. It's just terran's got such wonderful early game cheese and turtling powers that it's not necessarily 'all-in,' so to speak. Fast producing marines to build a bunker to kill a Zerg's hatch and drones is still cheese, though.
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I would say that 8 rax isn't cheese, but a bunker rush is. And since you almost ALWAYS bunker rush with an 8 rax...well. I mean 9 pool isn't considered cheese in ZvT because you don't massling and pull drones all the time afterwards.
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sorry skt fanboys, but canata and fantasy's combined 4 wins against jaedong this month ALL CAME FROM BUNKER RUSHING.
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On August 09 2009 06:14 iamho wrote: sorry skt fanboys, but canata and fantasy's combined 4 wins against jaedong this month ALL CAME FROM BUNKER RUSHING.
If I were to take you at your word, that would make JD a fool. A fool he is not. I don't even need to discuss how the games played out for that much to be obvious.
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On August 09 2009 00:59 EvoChamber wrote: KT definitely hurts Flash by leaning on him too much. If Flash played for a deeper team like SKT or Samsung or STX or CJ I think he would have one or two more titles than he does right now simply because he would have much more of the time he needs to ponder everything thoroughly before solo league games. What's worse is that the situation sort of feeds itself, as the other KT players grow accustomed to having Flash bail them out time and time again (similar to what happened to OZ with Jaedong in PL R4 and R5) and give less effort than they otherwise would have. Not to mention that with such a workload there's no way Flash will find enough time to add new innovations to the metagame, which he clearly both does and enjoys doing (don't see Carriers much anymore). Fantasy is better right now because he has a wonderful group of people backing him up. He has the best coach, two ex-bonjwa of the same race with all the firsthand experience that that implies, and Bisu, Best, and Canata as reliable support in PL. Fantasy's in a situation where his natural talents are nurtured and his natural weaknesses are weeded out or hidden so well that they're not a liability (the whole mech/valkyrie trend was developed to make his then-middling bio control a non-factor in TvZ). It's hardly surprising that as time passes he has surpassed Flash, who doesn't have even one of the advantages mentioned above working in his favor.
I think KT should just stop sending Flash in ace matches. (a) It's not like they're solid enough to win next year's proleague anyway, so the losses they'll incur won't matter much, (b) they'll grow some new talent, and (c) Flash will get a break so he can focus a bit more on improving his individual league performances, which could definitely do with a boost.
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On August 09 2009 06:14 iamho wrote: sorry skt fanboys, but canata and fantasy's combined 4 wins against jaedong this month ALL CAME FROM BUNKER RUSHING.
lmao First of all, bunker rushing isn't some overpowered, impossible to beat strategy. Second, the bunker on outsider can hardly be qualified as a "rush". The game on outsider was a macro game in which fantasy was behind and barely managed to eke out a win. To dismiss it as nothing more than a bunker rush is demeaning to both fantasy and jaedong and to miss the entire 25 minutes or so that followed. Third, fantasy has only 2 wins against jaedong, not 4. What an awful comment.
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+ Show Spoiler +Jaedong played much stronger than fantasy did in the outsider game, the debacle with the guardians really set him back; if he had executed that flank at the end he would have won. Nothing I've seen refutes that Fantasy is an average terran (at least in tvz) with above average coaching staff and a lot of special attention. I'll call him good when he actually plays well, not just makes good decisions
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ghostWriter, he meant combined wins from Canata AND fantasy, they had 2 each.
But yeah, Game 1 was NOT a bunker rush win, because JD fought it off and came out on top. That game was won due to pure determination of fantasy and an uncharacteristic under-aggression from JD.
A win is a win, and fanta produced when it mattered the most, so he is the obvious #1 contender right now. JD will have to really fight back in the OSL and MSL to fight back for that spot.
Bisu didn't get a chance to showcase his play, since PerfectMan vs Bisu's PVP is not much contest. Combined with his loss to Iris, he's really not in any position to move up.
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On August 09 2009 08:42 ghostWriter wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2009 06:14 iamho wrote: sorry skt fanboys, but canata and fantasy's combined 4 wins against jaedong this month ALL CAME FROM BUNKER RUSHING. lmao First of all, bunker rushing isn't some overpowered, impossible to beat strategy. Second, the bunker on outsider can hardly be qualified as a "rush". The game on outsider was a macro game in which fantasy was behind and barely managed to eke out a win. To dismiss it as nothing more than a bunker rush is demeaning to both fantasy and jaedong and to miss the entire 25 minutes or so that followed. Third, fantasy has only 2 wins against jaedong, not 4. What an awful comment.
I think you should re-read what he said.
canata and fantasy's combined 4 wins
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Germany / USA16648 Posts
On August 09 2009 06:03 Avidkeystamper wrote: I would say that 8 rax isn't cheese, but a bunker rush is. And since you almost ALWAYS bunker rush with an 8 rax...well. I mean 9 pool isn't considered cheese in ZvT because you don't massling and pull drones all the time afterwards. I'd just like to mention that Bunker Rush used to be almost the standard In TvZ for quite a while. People would open 1 Rax into CC, while pressuring Z with a Bunker. It wasn't designed to outright win the game with it, Terran didn't even have to really kill anything, economy wise the fact alone that Z had to pull at least half his Drones to defend made it more than worth it (and if he didn't...). Zerg players got so good at killing the Marines with pulled Drones that the popularity of it faded again. But still, it doesn't really cost the Terran all that much and it has the potential to deal tons of damage
In the Ace Fantasy wen't 9 Supply, 9 Rax, 11 Rax btw and the Bunker had no influence on the outcome of the game, it finished after both (morphing) Sunks and all the Lings were dead.
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On August 09 2009 09:01 Carnac wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2009 06:03 Avidkeystamper wrote: I would say that 8 rax isn't cheese, but a bunker rush is. And since you almost ALWAYS bunker rush with an 8 rax...well. I mean 9 pool isn't considered cheese in ZvT because you don't massling and pull drones all the time afterwards. I'd just like to mention that Bunker Rush used to be almost the standard In TvZ for quite a while. People would open 1 Rax into CC, while pressuring Z with a Bunker. It wasn't designed to outright win the game with it, Terran didn't even have to really kill anything, economy wise the fact alone that Z had to pull at least half his Drones to defend made it more than worth it (and if he didn't...). Zerg players got so good at killing the Marines with pulled Drones that the popularity of it faded again. But still, it doesn't really cost the Terran all that much and it has the potential to deal tons of damage In the Ace Fantasy wen't 9 Supply, 9 Rax, 11 Rax btw and the Bunker had no influence on the outcome of the game, it finished after both (morphing) Sunks and all the Lings were dead. Just because it used to be standard doesn't mean anything, really. I wasn't even talking about this game anyways, just wanted to refute d(O.o)a's point, I don't know why he's talking about an 8 rax.
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