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On August 24 2009 21:40 vaMpYr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2009 21:20 Dice84 wrote:On August 24 2009 21:04 vaMpYr wrote: yes ok , you tell me now why my power rank is so funny . maybe i can remove zero and put iris 9# . but i cant put all players in power rank .
and whats the deal with bisu 3 ? calm played really really really good lately , bisu didnt so much . On August 24 2009 21:06 vaMpYr wrote: and dont tell me i dont watch starcraft , i think i watch more than you will ever watch . i do see many jokes on TL too . First of all, Bisu above Fantasy is outrageous. Fantasy played alot more matches than Bisu had and produced some solid results. Bisu didn't really have a chance to prove himself much this month besides the 2-3 against Iris and few other matches like WCG. Second, Zero doesn't belong in the PR and same goes for Stork (even though I like Stork alot). Third, Iris belongs in the top 10 and not as #9. He's more like 5 ~ 7. I know that everyone can't make the perfect PR but where you placed Bisu, Zero, and Stork is just.. madness. PR is not about results , its about who is better . bisu is still better than fantasy and iris for now . losing 3 2 doesnt mean he is lower . ( i hate bisu ) same thing for calm , beating 3 1 jaedong doesnt mean he is better . jaedong is better than calm . bisu is better than fantasy and iris . i think my only mistake is to forgot iris in the PR . but its hard to choose and many players can have the top 10 . stork played good games at PL playoffs , he played descent in WCG without any training . he should have won effort easily if he had not give all his units under the swarm . and he sould have won if he attacked at the good timing . stork MUST be in the top10 . ok i can remove Zero and put iris then , maybe i was too subjective here . as much as i like iris , he doesnt deserve more than 9# . he lost to flash easily , he lost to kwanro after leading 2 0 , he lost to perfectman in a brillant game . but however , PR will always be someting subjective , so stop blame on me . im almost never agree with each new PR , so its still something with some subjective feeling .
What sort of criteria are you using to state that Bisu is better than Fantasy?
Secondly, just because the PR is partially subjective, it doesn't follow that your rankings (or someone else's, including mine) are not blameworthy. Why have a discussion of it at all if every estimation ultimately ends with, "well to hell with it, it's subjective anyways".
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it's about who is better *right now*
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On August 25 2009 00:27 o[twist] wrote: it's about who is better *right now*
exactly . and right now , bisu is better than fantasy .
right now , jaedong is better than calm .
i think you can ask SKT , boxer or who you want , i think all SKT members will tell you the same , bisu is still the best .
i was even thinking bisu deserve the 2# spot , but calm played really too well lately . he deserve it more .
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On August 25 2009 00:34 vaMpYr wrote:exactly . and right now , bisu is better than fantasy .
Proof. You have none.
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bisu is obviously a better player than fantasy but he hasn't been performing. the series against iris was quite sad and fantasy on the other hand carried his team in the PL finals.
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On August 25 2009 01:07 o[twist] wrote: bisu is obviously a better player than fantasy but he hasn't been performing. the series against iris was quite sad and fantasy on the other hand carried his team in the PL finals.
Obviously? Why obviously?
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my god guys go ask about this on some korean forum and you will see . bisu is a better play than fantasy , that's all . there is no discussion . its a fact . if fantasy was better , everyone in SKT would have talked about this . and dont forget the super ACE in PL final was for bisu . NOT fantasy .
watch the MSL quaterfinals , its a 100% RAPE .
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On August 25 2009 01:35 Hieros wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2009 01:07 o[twist] wrote: bisu is obviously a better player than fantasy but he hasn't been performing. the series against iris was quite sad and fantasy on the other hand carried his team in the PL finals. Obviously? Why obviously?
what the hell are you talking about why obviously. bisu is an historic player, fantasy is the flavor of the month terran unless he improves and starts winning important boXes
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On August 25 2009 01:44 vaMpYr wrote: my god guys go ask about this on some korean forum and you will see . bisu is a better play than fantasy , that's all . there is no discussion . its a fact . if fantasy was better , everyone in SKT would have talked about this . and dont forget the super ACE in PL final was for bisu . NOT fantasy .
watch the MSL quaterfinals , its a 100% RAPE .
I don't see why conclusions on a Korean forum need be taken as superior to any on this one, firstly; any conclusion in any language should be based on the strength of the argument no?
Secondly, simply because a player beats another player is not always grounds that, overall, he is a better player. FBH, for example, used to have seemingly every zerg's number, and yet no one would've ever called him a better player than say JD.
Not that Bisu is a 1-2 MU specialist like FBH. So Bisu destroyed Fantasy in the MSL quarters. That is indisputable. But Fantasy likewise trounced Bisu back in the Batoo OSL's.
Finally, the ace in the PL final was Fantasy, on Neo Medusa. Since SKT1 won the second Bo7 on Day II, there was no super ace match.
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On August 25 2009 01:50 o[twist] wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2009 01:35 Hieros wrote:On August 25 2009 01:07 o[twist] wrote: bisu is obviously a better player than fantasy but he hasn't been performing. the series against iris was quite sad and fantasy on the other hand carried his team in the PL finals. Obviously? Why obviously? what the hell are you talking about why obviously. bisu is an historic player, fantasy is the flavor of the month terran unless he improves and starts winning important boXes
Let me get this straight.
First you say that the PR is about "who is best *right now*".
Then to support the argument that Bisu > Fantasy *right now*, to use your criterion, you state that Bisu is a historic player?
I certainly wouldn't deny that Bisu is a historic player, but it's not evidence for your argument. I would have agreed, three months ago, that Fantasy is the flavor of the month terran. But the argument is fairly untenable right now.
Bisu beat Fantasy in the MSL, then proceeded to lose to Iris. Not exactly living up to his great historical pedigree, in my opinion.
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maybe you're confusing me with the other guy. i don't think bisu should be above fantasy on next month's PR; i think it's ludicrous to even consider it.
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Ok that makes more sense. Would've been helpful to know in what sense you meant "better player".
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if they were both at the top of their game bisu would be by far the better player imo.
as it is i think fantasy actually IS at the top of his game.
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It's not just about being good, but showing it. Bisu has shown less recently.
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Hieros , Starcraft is ALL about korean scene . ALL builds and strats you play is ALL koreans things . Starcraft was just invented by koreans ( and of course some Grrr.. and others in 98-99) . the koreans know and understand Starcraft more than you can ever imagine . they understand some details you dont even dream of .
so if fantasy was better than bisu , there would be NO discussion for that , there would be some interview or articles talking about SKT and fantasy , explaining fantasy explosion and that he is CLEARLY now above him .
bisu is a legend of SC , he has cleary more fans than fantasy . bisu lose games just like jaedong can lose some .
the PR is about who is better right now , its not about who has played the most .
fantasy has still some clear weakness and inexperience . calm has experience .
if fantasy is better than bisu , we can still say he is better than JD too right ? fantasy beat JD in the biggest stage ever , so it count more than OSL . fantasy is better ?
i can tell you i HATE bisu , so im not subjective here , im objective 100% .
fantasy almost lost to kal this morning , im starting to really love kal much , i can tell you kal played better than fantasy . fantasy is a robot , some oov puppet , fantasy is not yet in the top like bisu or jaedong . I can even assure you flash is a step above fantasy .
if fantasy want to be above bisu in PR , he need to do some BIG results and show , like calm did . ( MSL , PL playoffs )
you can say fantasy rape JD , but bisu won jaedong the last time they played right ? we can say the same .
calm better than bisu is a good question right now , any answer would be subjective . i think calm is really smarter than bisu , but bisu has more experience and skills .
bisu is not on a slump , stork is maybe . we just cant put fantasy above bisu after the MSL quarters . if we look at all PL season , fantasy is pathetic compare to bisu .
and talking about iris , im not sure fantasy would have won vs iris . iris is a beast of tvt , im not sure who win between them .
flash vs fantasy in bo5 , can u ever think fantasy can win ? flash is the best tvt of all time . flash vs bisu in b05 , bisu is the favourite .
bisu is just better , the 0 3 in batoo doesnt mean everything .
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Poll: Who is better? (Vote): fantasy (Vote): Bisu
Poll: Who should be ranked higher (Vote): fantasy (Vote): Bisu
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+ Show Spoiler +On August 25 2009 03:23 vaMpYr wrote: Hieros , Starcraft is ALL about korean scene . ALL builds and strats you play is ALL koreans things . Starcraft was just invented by koreans ( and of course some Grrr.. and others in 98-99) . the koreans know and understand Starcraft more than you can ever imagine . they understand some details you dont even dream of .
so if fantasy was better than bisu , there would be NO discussion for that , there would be some interview or articles talking about SKT and fantasy , explaining fantasy explosion and that he is CLEARLY now above him .
bisu is a legend of SC , he has cleary more fans than fantasy . bisu lose games just like jaedong can lose some .
the PR is about who is better right now , its not about who has played the most .
fantasy has still some clear weakness and inexperience . calm has experience .
if fantasy is better than bisu , we can still say he is better than JD too right ? fantasy beat JD in the biggest stage ever , so it count more than OSL . fantasy is better ?
i can tell you i HATE bisu , so im not subjective here , im objective 100% .
fantasy almost lost to kal this morning , im starting to really love kal much , i can tell you kal played better than fantasy . fantasy is a robot , some oov puppet , fantasy is not yet in the top like bisu or jaedong . I can even assure you flash is a step above fantasy .
if fantasy want to be above bisu in PR , he need to do some BIG results and show , like calm did . ( MSL , PL playoffs )
you can say fantasy rape JD , but bisu won jaedong the last time they played right ? we can say the same .
calm better than bisu is a good question right now , any answer would be subjective . i think calm is really smarter than bisu , but bisu has more experience and skills .
bisu is not on a slump , stork is maybe . we just cant put fantasy above bisu after the MSL quarters . if we look at all PL season , fantasy is pathetic compare to bisu .
and talking about iris , im not sure fantasy would have won vs iris . iris is a beast of tvt , im not sure who win between them .
flash vs fantasy in bo5 , can u ever think fantasy can win ? flash is the best tvt of all time . flash vs bisu in b05 , bisu is the favourite .
bisu is just better , the 0 3 in batoo doesnt mean everything .
Oh really? You mean to tell me that BW is big in Korea? Geez, being the foolish, pigheaded resident of the US that I am, I would never have understood, only paying attention to TL due to woefully being only able to read articles so graciously provided in translation, from (and let me think about this for a second) Korean, by the contributors here.
Well I, being so new to these ideas, can't speak of how the art of rhetoric works in other nations, I have always heard that one should supply evidence for his or her conclusions.
Moreover, when I ask "what is your evidence for saying that Bisu is better than Fantasy" and you respond "Koreans say so, and Koreans know alot about BW" you have not provided evidence, rather, committed a logical fallacy. (Arguably two: the false appeal to authority and an argumentum ad populum).
Even if it was said in a Korean forum, certainly the arguments that they use could be expressed in English.
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On August 25 2009 03:39 MoRe_mInErAls wrote:Poll: Who is better?( Vote): fantasy ( Vote): Bisu Poll: Who should be ranked higher( Vote): fantasy ( Vote): Bisu
The first poll is useless without a proper frame of reference.
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On August 25 2009 03:23 vaMpYr wrote: Hieros , Starcraft is ALL about korean scene . ALL builds and strats you play is ALL koreans things . Starcraft was just invented by koreans ( and of course some Grrr.. and others in 98-99) . the koreans know and understand Starcraft more than you can ever imagine . they understand some details you dont even dream of .
I don't see how that has anything to do with the discussion.
so if fantasy was better than bisu , there would be NO discussion for that , there would be some interview or articles talking about SKT and fantasy , explaining fantasy explosion and that he is CLEARLY now above him .
I hear plenty of fantasy explosion...and since when do Korean news sites talk about "so and so is better than player X right now cuz we said so"? They speak of players doing well, not doing better than specific other people. By all accounts Fantasy is doing great.
bisu is a legend of SC , he has cleary more fans than fantasy . bisu lose games just like jaedong can lose some .
Correct.
the PR is about who is better right now , its not about who has played the most .
The first part of your sentence renders your previous statement irrelevant, as Bisu's legacy then has little to do with the current ranking. It has also been demonstrated that you cannot do well on a PR unless you actually do something (or PerfectMan would have popped up by now). You cannot justify placing a player who has done little over someone who just posted huge results.
fantasy has still some clear weakness and inexperience . calm has experience .
Fantasy has done a lot more on the big stage than Calm, to be quite frank.
if fantasy is better than bisu , we can still say he is better than JD too right ? fantasy beat JD in the biggest stage ever , so it count more than OSL . fantasy is better ?
This train of logic makes no sense, since the PR is about the whole month. You also seem to be suggesting Bisu should be ranked higher than Jaedong. lol?
i can tell you i HATE bisu , so im not subjective here , im objective 100% .
fantasy almost lost to kal this morning , im starting to really love kal much , i can tell you kal played better than fantasy . fantasy is a robot , some oov puppet , fantasy is not yet in the top like bisu or jaedong . I can even assure you flash is a step above fantasy .
If fantasy is a puppet, why aren't all T1 terrans just as good as him? If he's just an oov/boxer puppet, why is his vP ridiculous? If Kal played better, then why did he lose? If fantasy isn't a top player, then why was he the MVP of the PL finals?
if fantasy want to be above bisu in PR , he need to do some BIG results and show , like calm did . ( MSL , PL playoffs )
Kinda shot yourself in the foot, there.
you can say fantasy rape JD , but bisu won jaedong the last time they played right ? we can say the same .
Where does this statement fit into the rest of your argument?
calm better than bisu is a good question right now , any answer would be subjective . i think calm is really smarter than bisu , but bisu has more experience and skills .
So Calm > Bisu is debatable, but Fantasy > Bisu is not? I really don't see how that works.
bisu is not on a slump , stork is maybe . we just cant put fantasy above bisu after the MSL quarters . if we look at all PL season , fantasy is pathetic compare to bisu .
Good thing the PR is about this particular month with a little bit of context, rather than a whole year affair, huh? Plus, nobody mentioned a slump. Bisu just hasn't done anything this month that suggests he's playing better than fantasy. He lost to Iris and played 1 PL final game and his series vFree. It's not a terrible record, but fantasy's outstrips it by a mile this month. I cannot even begin to stress the significance of his PL tear.
and talking about iris , im not sure fantasy would have won vs iris . iris is a beast of tvt , im not sure who win between them .
Yet Iris was not fantasy's opponent, and I don't know that Bisu would have beat Jaedong. Unless you were sure of the latter, then I don't really think you have any legs to stand on with that argument, since it's all hollow speculation. Who is a tougher opponent? Jaedong or Iris?
flash vs fantasy in bo5 , can u ever think fantasy can win ? flash is the best tvt of all time . flash vs bisu in b05 , bisu is the favourite .
There is quite a gap between Flash's TvT and his other matchups right now, for starters (and fantasy is supposedly a "BoX player", so I think he's in a better position than you assume). Not to mention a single, hypothetical Bo5 between any given two players is not nearly enough to base a PR rank on (Player A > Player B > Player C > Player A for instance). It's really only of use if their records are very close, and quite frankly, they aren't right now. Bisu still deserves a spot on the PR at the moment, methinks, but there is absolutely no way he's had a better month (or past two months, for that matter) than fantasy.
bisu is just better , the 0 3 in batoo doesnt mean everything .
Why? Because you don't want it to? It's way out of our frame of reference anyways, so I don't see why you brought it up.
I'm afraid your whole post was a set of statements that didn't fit together into any one criteria, and so any particular way of judging the PR will eliminate the majority of your post's content.
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guys stop posting and flaming each other so much. fantasy is obviously a top player right now just like effort was a couple months ago and just like calm also is now. if there's a meaningful distinction to be made it's between these players who are showing skill and results but not necessarily demonstrating their ability to stick around and become champions over and over again like bisu or jaedong.
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