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On August 04 2009 20:51 Hinanawi wrote:MSL Spoiler + Show Spoiler + I wonder where Bisu and Iris would be on the PR if it was published today instead of yesterday...
Simple, Bisu moves down a rank and Iris moves up one. ^^
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its ok when flash kills iris cause his tvt is that good and wins wcg korea he will be back,,,
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On August 04 2009 18:39 darktreb wrote:Flash will always be cursed by the expectations people place on him. For baseball fans, he reminds me a lot of Kerry Wood actually. Hopefully Flash's career turns out better. Kerry Wood tied a major league record in striking out 20 batters in just his fifth start (and as a 20 year old). I remember watching this game and as ridiculous as it sounds, he didn't "just strike out 20 batters" ... he absolutely murdered the Houston lineup. This wasn't a crummy lineup either - it had some great hitters including two future Hall of Famers (Jeff Bagwell and Craig Biggio) in their primes. The only hit Houston got was an infield dribbler that went 60 feet and was bobbled by the third basemen (easily could have been an error), and by many accounts it was the most dominant game ever pitched. Naturally, people went insane about Wood. What everyone forgot was that he was just 20 years old (extremely young for a baseball player in the big leagues) and that a lot of things can happen. If you want to read more about Kerry Wood, I would recommend this great article by the New York Times at http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/03/sports/playmagazine/0603play-wood.htmlWhen Flash took down Jaedong (reigning OSL champion), Bisu, and Stork (previous OSL runner up and indisputed best PvT player) in succession at age FIFTEEN (since then I don't think a single progamer has even qualified for OSL at that age) in Bacchus, it was hard not to look at him the same way. Flash went 8-2 against JD/Bisu/Stork, with 6-1 against Bisu/Stork and 3-1 on Troy/Katrina, two of the worst TvP maps of all time. It feels like an eternity ago but Flash is STILL younger than Jaedong was when he won his first Starleague (and Jaedong is the youngest Starleague winner ever other than Flash). Ever since then, the expectations have been clear - become the greatest player of all time, or you're a failure. Lately, Flash has been a failure, at least by everyone's standards (and I'm sure he would admit he hasn't lived up to his own expectations either). I don't think Flash fans are oversupporting him here - we're just as frustrated as everyone else that he doesn't do better, and many of us are perfectly ok with him not being on this PR. We expect more of him too. What's annoying is people saying things like "finally he's off the PR" as if his 53-19 record in PL (one loss better than Jaedong by the way), making GOM finals without a loss, and making both leagues again is absolutely meaningless. I just want to know: - Why are Flash's losses to Calm and Kal on his birthday so much more heavily scrutinized than Jaedong blowing PL games that cost Oz first place? Both had similar schedules at the time (Flash actually played more games in June). Also Calm has proven himself to be a very good ZvT player and Kal isn't exactly a scrub either. - Why are Flash's losses to Yarnc and JD so much less defensible than Skyhigh absolutely BLOWING two straight games to Zero? Not to mention Skyhigh 1-2 July while Flash 3-0'd him ... and this is coming from a huge Skyhigh fan. Yarnc and JD are arguably the two best ZvT players in the world - yes Flash's builds were not smart but two weeks earlier everyone was hailing the "new Flash build" after he rolled multiple mediocre Zergs in a row with them. No, Flash doesn't deserve to be on this PR. But he doesn't deserve the hate he's getting. Did everyone forget that he absolutely crushed Canata in MSL? Is there any doubt Flash would have gone to RO8 if he'd faced Piano like Canata did instead of the ultimate wildcard Kwanro? Hell, he probably would have made OSL RO8 in Canata's group there as well. Did everyone forget that Skyhigh TvZ'd his way out of GOM and MSL? Or that type-b has played like 15 games total in the past 2 months? Many players have had weak spots but somehow Flash's just get magnified by a factor of 10. He's not the greatest player ever, or even the best Terran player right now, get over it guys. Sorry he "disappointed" everyone. All I know is he has the second highest winning percentage out of all players behind JD, and that in three months Canata will be forgotten again and Skyhigh still won't be better than him. Count on it. You got a very good, valid point there darktreb. I don't think people give Flash the proper respect or credit that he deserves (or not enough I should say). People already seem to forget what he's done or accomplished. Yeah, he's not stacked with trophies like JD or Bisu but the kid is a winning machine. He just needs to learn which matches to win that counts. You know, I used to hate Flash myself (I guess cause of his rivalry with JD) but starting since last year, I started to respect the kid alot and eventually end up liking him. I believe that one of these days, he's going to unleash his rage like JD and just start stomping everyone, eventually taking another or 2 Starleagues. He still has alot of potentials. Right now, he just needs to recoup himself.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On August 04 2009 16:57 Djabanete wrote: It's easy to forget that Flash carried his team as far as humanly possible this year. Bisu and Jaedong both get well-deserved credit for being monsters in proleague, but if KT didn't completely suck they too would have made the playoffs easily with the support Flash has given them.
I don't disagree strongly with Flash's exclusion from this rank, but I do think that Flash critics fail to understand that what Jaedong did for OZ this year, Flash did for KT, except that KT-without-Flash sucked even worse than OZ-without-JD. Too bad for Flash.
Also the kid has been quietly winning GOM like a nuclear stealth torpedo. If he loses this tournament I will be in shock. Flash has been the king of TvT ever since the GSI/Bacchus period.
Edit: basically what I'm saying is that the only reason why we have no tangible evidence this year of how good Flash is, is that his team is fucking atrocious. How do you not make the playoffs when you have the player tied for most wins with Jaedong? Good god Luxury, to think that you were once S-class just makes my head spin. Very true sir. Indeed, Flash did his job better as he had the best winning percentage of the two
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Interestingly enough, Bisu almost nabbed (gee thanks Boxer/Mong) most wins on a team with plenty of ace options and had a far better win percentage than either of the two.
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Yeah, that's the cool thing about it. Every game, except for one, that Jaedong and Flash had to play more than Bisu, they lost. They're honestly just a LITTLE better.
Though Bisu does have far more leniency than the two.
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I'm still not 100% sure if I agree with flash not being in the top 10 - tbh I'm just not exactly sure what he power rank is trying to represent - is it who has been showing the best games this month - or is it who - skill lvl wise - are the best players. Because if it's the ladder flash should still be included in this list.
Either way, reading something like "Flash is really good, he just loses all of his games" actually makes me kind of sick, go to TLPD and take a look at how many games his won and how many games he lost. 6-1 in his last games, all in TvZ which is his supposed "weak" mu, in june he even had a 10 game winning streak. He is 29-11 in his last 40 games, that is a 72.5 % winning rate... so winning 72.5% of your games is now considered "losing all of his games" ???
Also is it just me being retarded or does this sentence really not make sense? "Skyhigh won more PL playoff games than Flash played in July" I mean.. Flash didn't even play in the playoffs because his team sucks so much, how is that a fair comparison, or is there something I'm not getting here?
Kinda sad that JWD can't defend himself against the skt1 fanboyism accusations and stuff like this, but still.
And if you just care about the big games we had, sure we didn't even see flash (which is barely his fault though) so I'm not sure I have a problem with him not being in the PR if it's just about who showed the best games in the last month but... I get angry when people complain about how "bad" he is.
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On August 04 2009 22:09 TwoToneTerran wrote: Yeah, that's the cool thing about it. Every game, except for one, that Jaedong and Flash had to play more than Bisu, they lost. They're honestly just a LITTLE better.
Though Bisu does have far more leniency than the two.
I would say that makes them a little worse, not better.
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Dont agree with this power rank flash should have been in, he did make it to gom finals dont know why effort isnt higher
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Spenguin
Australia3316 Posts
Next month + Show Spoiler [MSL SPOILER] + Iris will be so high, I reckon he deserves a 4th place just for the amazing play he has been showing
Amazing write-up JWD!!
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On August 04 2009 22:28 Nylan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2009 22:09 TwoToneTerran wrote: Yeah, that's the cool thing about it. Every game, except for one, that Jaedong and Flash had to play more than Bisu, they lost. They're honestly just a LITTLE better.
Though Bisu does have far more leniency than the two. I would say that makes them a little worse, not better.
Bisu has a much easier time in PL than either of them and didn't put up as many wins. I'm sure if his team was atrocious and he was worked to the bone -- to the point where he couldn't even prioritize individual leagues (of which he's worse than Flash in, lately) -- he could possibly put up more wins, but he's got it easy compared to the two guys who beat him.
A better percentage is nice, but it comes at the boon of an easier run in general. It's like how July owned his last OSL victory -- that doesn't make it a better win than someone who struggled through their OSL (Yay Savior).
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I only have problem with one sentence I'm getting pretty tired of the same old "Flash is really good, he just loses all of his games" line.
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/players/424_Flash/games
Yes, he is really loosing all of his games, specialy him being 53-19 in PL.. Specialy being without a loss in GOM...
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On August 05 2009 00:25 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2009 22:28 Nylan wrote:On August 04 2009 22:09 TwoToneTerran wrote: Yeah, that's the cool thing about it. Every game, except for one, that Jaedong and Flash had to play more than Bisu, they lost. They're honestly just a LITTLE better.
Though Bisu does have far more leniency than the two. I would say that makes them a little worse, not better. Bisu has a much easier time in PL than either of them and didn't put up as many wins. I'm sure if his team was atrocious and he was worked to the bone -- to the point where he couldn't even prioritize individual leagues (of which he's worse than Flash in, lately) -- he could possibly put up more wins, but he's got it easy compared to the two guys who beat him. A better percentage is nice, but it comes at the boon of an easier run in general. It's like how July owned his last OSL victory -- that doesn't make it a better win than someone who struggled through their OSL (Yay Savior).
If Bisu had played as many games as Flash or Jaedong, he would have won that title outright and probably by a healthy margin, unless you're seriously suggesting he would have gone 0-10 or some such number. So no, they're not better, because they needed significantly more games to match his record. It's that simple, just as it is safe to assume that Bisu would have won at least 30% of the remainder of the games needed to match Flash's total played record.
A team that goes 9-5 is not generally considered better than a team that goes 8-1, for example. One can safely assume that the 8-1 team would win at least one more of its 5 remaining games.
The rest of your argument doesn't follow or make any sense at all.
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Yeah, sure, Bisu would totally do better if he was 100% always the ace for his team and always had to split his practice up.
That's daft, man. If he was the ace for SKT everytime and played the same number of games he'd have even less wins then right now. He gets the benefit of only having to practice for the ace match half of the damn time.
You're thinking purely in numbers instead of the reasons behind the numbers. I'm not even arguing that either Jaedong or Flash are more dominant in PL -- it's hard to say, but they definitely do similarly as well with much much more on their plate than Bisu. I don't know what else to say.
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On August 05 2009 00:53 TwoToneTerran wrote: Yeah, sure, Bisu would totally do better if he was 100% always the ace for his team and always had to split his practice up.
That's daft, man. If he was the ace for SKT everytime and played the same number of games he'd have even less wins then right now. He gets the benefit of only having to practice for the ace match half of the damn time.
You're thinking purely in numbers instead of the reasons behind the numbers. I'm not even arguing that either Jaedong or Flash are more dominant in PL -- it's hard to say, but they definitely do similarly as well with much much more on their plate than Bisu. I don't know what else to say.
Now see, your mistake now is foraging off into extremely speculative theory, and thus you have little to base your argument on. an 8-1 team going 10-4 overall is not an unreasonable assumption, and yes that does factor in exhaustion. Your "what ifs" extend far beyond that, as you don't know how they would have performed with less games since we don't have any way to properly calculate how much exhaustion actually did affect their play versus the more opportunities to win that more games creates.
In any case, you're getting ridiculously tangenial. The point remains that Bisu winning a single game less while having played quite a few less games is quite an impressive feat, and thus to claim that Jaedong or Flash were better than him because of that single win is completely unfounded. We have every reason to assume Bisu had a very good chance of winning that last game he was denied the chance to play by Boxer and Mong, which in and of itself blows your exhaustion argument out of the water.
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Yes, please, boil down everything I say into "what ifs" even though Bisu clearly had less responsibilities and demonstrably less to practice for. Everytime a player is asked a reason to their success, what do you think they always say? Practice. It's what turns chumps like Frozean into a legitimate Jaedong sniper, or an upstart like Violet into someone who can not only beat Bisu, but do so convincingly.
Bisu had less to practice for, plain and simple. Bisu is not on a one man show team, he is not the ace 95 to 100% of the time (Flash takes a hit here because KT HAS run people like ForGG instead of him, unlike Oz), he has more practice for the games he gets to play. If you somehow don't understand that this isn't a strong reason why Bisu's win rate is so monstrously high, then you're either confused as to what progamers have time and again acredit their wins to, or you're utterly convinced that Bisu's just the bestest best thing to hit starcraft.
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At first I read this PR and thought it made a lot of sense. Sure, Canata seemed a bit too high and Iris a bit too low, and the arrangement of Effort, Calm, and Bisu was more a matter of taste than of certainty. JWD's exclusion of Flash was seemed shaky, but his justification made it seem a lot more reasonable.
Then I read some of the comments from Flash fans. Not his fanboys, his fans. And they convinced me. Not with sentiments, but with facts. Leaving Flash off this power rank was absolutely wrong. He's out of the OSL and MSL, true enough. But he made the finals of GOM. GOM is a less prestigious tournament. It's missing players from several teams (including prominent ones like SKT and Hite), and the progamers who do enter the tournament place practicing for it at the bottom of their list of priorities. Nevertheless, it is not nothing, and reaching its finals is significant enough to merit placement on the PR. Flash is not in the PL playoffs and thus has had no opportunity to show his skill there. But that's not a problem with Flash, who worked his ass off in proleague and won 54 games for his team. That's a problem with KT, whose lineup throughout the PL season was loaded with paper tigers like Luxury and ForGG and who only gained a second reliable player in Violet near the end of the season (i.e., too late). To put it bluntly, KT sucks. But that should have no bearing on a Power Rank (at least a consistent one) in which Bisu is rewarded for losing to a 2fac by staying at #3. Power Ranks are about the performance of individual players, and should have no place for any kind of reflected glory from team performance, be it great or god-awful.
Which brings me to the author of this PR, and to my objections to the method by which he orders it. JWD is an awesome guy. He is a passionate fan, but not a rabid one. He's got intelligence and good humor and he expresses his opinions clearly. But none of this can excuse the inconsistent manner by which he weights the achievements of progamers. He allows team success to influence player ranking. Canata drops out of the round of 8 of both OSL and MSL (kudos for getting there, of course) and rises two spots. That makes zero sense considering how hard Fantasy took him down and how his two wins against Jaedong leaned heavily upon an 8rax bunker rush/vulture/wraith/cc build that, while extremely powerful strategically, requires no special skills to execute. In fact, unless you count being a member of SKT1 as a special skill no other progamer can accomplish, Canata has no special skills whatsoever, and the five losses he suffered at the hands of Jaedong and Fantasy prove it beyond the shadow of a doubt. At best he deserved to drop two spots to 10 on this PR, but instead he rises two spots to 6. Even if JWD had absolutely had to place a T1 Terran at #6, he could have put iloveoov without anyone disputing it; without his strategic genius behind both Canata and Fantasy, they would both be mediocrities. Hell, even with oov writing scripts for him Canata is still mediocre. Aside from old-timers like Last Romantic who actually remember the long-gone days when he showed some promise, there are no true Canata fans. Just Jaedong-hating trolls who wanted to disguise their hatred as something positive.
Keeping Bisu at #3 can be justified and I don't think anyone can seriously argue with it. Bisu is a progamer with an illustrious history, a winner of four individual leagues; moreover he's shown no signs of succumbing to the malaise that's infected the other five dragons. Hence there's every reason to believe that his future performance will merit the #3 ranking that his performance in a rather barren month (a great win against Fantasy, a cheese win against Fantasy, and a loss to Iris) would otherwise belie. If Bisu's rank remains unchanged on these grounds, then the only explanation for Flash's (someone who is, if not more accomplished than Bisu, at least comparable to him) total exclusion from the PR is arbitrariness and favoritism (whether it's conscious or not doesn't matter).
But there's one problem here. It's not with the argument for keeping Bisu there. It's with how that argument flies in the face of the logic underpinning JWD's power ranks. Someone who once was willing to place Zero above Jaedong on the basis of a single month's performance is not someone who treats the Power Rank as an indicator of a player's past or future performance. It is someone who concentrates exclusively on performance in the month at hand, gives some brownie points for being a SKT player (hello thezerg), and expects things to sort themselves out.
This is unprecedented in the history of Power Ranks. Fakesteve's choices were often hilarious because they were capricious as hell. But he always, always gave weight to past performance and responsibly treated his PRs as predictors of future performance (hence why FS never put Lucifer on the PR in spite of the good month Lucifer had; FS knew that that was the only good month Lucifer was going to have). Despite losing 0-3 to Bisu, Savior was kept at the top of the PR for a extra month by djetterstyle in deference to the extent of his previous dominance. I know PR writers tend to stay at that position until they start missing deadlines by a month for three or four months straight, and I recognize and admire the excellence of JWD's OSL news reports. I know he's a wonderful writer. But given his consistent inability to think of each month's PR as a document of SC history, something fans new and old alike can look back on as an accurate record of who was strong in progaming over periods of time far longer than a month, I sincerely believe that he is not the right person to write the power rank.
edit: Okay, I'm being too harsh. JWD's method works fine for the first three months out of every four month season; if there are enough games played, then the cream rises to the top regardless of what emphasis is placed on what period of time (past/present month/future). But that fourth month is the most important month. the one in which champions are created and predictions for rising (and falling) stars are made, and requires a broader vision, the occasion of which I'm sure JWD can rise to. JWD should keep writing the Power Rank for as long as he wants. I just hope he'll avoid such clunkers like Calm 4, Canata 6, and that indefensible Flash CBNC in the future.
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
To the post above; You've written a lot, and said very little.
Then I read some of the comments from Flash fans. Not his fanboys, his fans. And they convinced me. Not with sentiments, but with facts. Leaving Flash off this power rank was absolutely wrong. He's out of the OSL and MSL, true enough. But he made the finals of GOM. GOM is a less prestigious tournament. It's missing players from several teams (including prominent ones like SKT and Hite), and the progamers who do enter the tournament place practicing for it at the bottom of their list of priorities. Nevertheless, it is not nothing, and reaching its finals is significant enough to merit placement on the PR. Flash is not in the PL playoffs and thus has had no opportunity to show his skill there. But that's not a problem with Flash, who worked his ass off in proleague and won 54 games for his team. That's a problem with KT, whose lineup throughout the PL season was loaded with paper tigers like Luxury and ForGG and who only gained a second reliable player in Violet near the end of the season (i.e., too late). To put it bluntly, KT sucks. But that should have no bearing on a Power Rank (at least a consistent one) in which Bisu is rewarded for losing to a 2fac by staying at #3. Power Ranks are about the performance of individual players, and should have no place for any kind of reflected glory from team performance, be it great or god-awful.
GOM is so off the radar it really shouldn't be counted towards ELO (in my humble opinion). It's not like it was a low priority for players, it wasn't a priority at all. EffOrt didn't practice at all, and thought it was mildly annoying that Iris did. The reason Iris is on the PR is because he's actually in another league and won some stuff in PL. Flash shouldn't be penalized directly for not playing in proleague, but he is rightfully penalized indirectly for not doing so. You can't just put Flash on the PR because if he was playing PL he would've won. That's almost what you're suggesting JWD do.
Which brings me to the author of this PR, and to my objections to the method by which he orders it. JWD is an awesome guy. He is a passionate fan, but not a rabid one. He's got intelligence and good humor and he expresses his opinions clearly. But none of this can excuse the inconsistent manner by which he weights the achievements of progamers. He allows team success to influence player ranking. Canata drops out of the round of 8 of both OSL and MSL (kudos for getting there, of course) and rises two spots. That makes zero sense considering how hard Fantasy took him down and how his two wins against Jaedong leaned heavily upon an 8rax bunker rush/vulture/wraith/cc build that, while extremely powerful strategically, requires no special skills to execute. In fact, unless you count being a member of SKT1 as a special skill no other progamer can accomplish, Canata has no special skills whatsoever, and the five losses he suffered at the hands of Jaedong and Fantasy prove it beyond the shadow of a doubt. At best he deserved to drop two spots to 10 on this PR, but instead he rises two spots to 6. Even if JWD had absolutely had to place a T1 Terran at #6, he could have put iloveoov without anyone disputing it; without his strategic genius behind both Canata and Fantasy, they would both be mediocrities. Hell, even with oov writing scripts for him Canata is still mediocre. Aside from old-timers like Last Romantic who actually remember the long-gone days when he showed some promise, there are no true Canata fans. Just Jaedong-hating trolls who wanted to disguise their hatred as something positive.
You really shortchange Canata here, not only did he "drop out" of both leagues in this month, but he also qualified for them - something Flash did not do. And I don't be stupid and suggest that beating Jaedong with whatever strategy doesn't require skill. Canata gave the #1 ranked player in the world a run for his money in a important tournament. Canata has quite a bit of special skill, more than (I would venture) you or I, or any player on this forum including IdrA and ret do. He's a A-Team Terran on the best team in PL, and that's coming from someone who doesn't even like him that much. But your attacks on Canata are totally unwarrented. And then you allege some sort of unholy conspiracy between "Jaedoning-hating trolls" and Canata (who according to you has no fans). Dude, that's absurd.
Keeping Bisu at #3 can be justified and I don't think anyone can seriously argue with it. Bisu is a progamer with an illustrious history, a winner of four individual leagues; moreover he's shown no signs of succumbing to the malaise that's infected the other five dragons. Hence there's every reason to believe that his future performance will merit the #3 ranking that his performance in a rather barren month (a great win against Fantasy, a cheese win against Fantasy, and a loss to Iris) would otherwise belie. If Bisu's rank remains unchanged on these grounds, then the only explanation for Flash's (someone who is, if not more accomplished than Bisu, at least comparable to him) total exclusion from the PR is arbitrariness, favoritism, incompetence.
If nobody can seriously disagree with it (they can, obviously) then why are you disagreeing? Bisu is on the power rank, not because of his history, or because he's on SKT1, but because the small amount of games he played this month has a significant part in scheduling, and in the games he did play, he looked very strong. He may not have played a million games, but the quality of his play was good and consistent enough to suggest that he is the #3 player in the world. You're missing the point. The reason Flash is not in the PR is because his lack of games played is very much his fault (out of both leagues, not even going to argue PL) and he has not played the quality of opponents in GOM that Bisu/Fantasy have played in their games. It's really simple. All wins are not equal.
But there's one problem here. It's not with the argument for keeping Bisu there. It's with how that argument flies in the face of the logic underpinning JWD's power ranks. Someone who once was willing to place Zero above Jaedong on the basis of a single month's performance is not someone who treats the Power Rank as an indicator of a player's past or future performance. It is someone who concentrates exclusively on performance in the month at hand, gives some brownie points for being a SKT player (hello thezerg), and expects things to sort themselves out.
To bring out the old ZerO>Jaedong bit is a bit unfair. I'm not even sure JWD would agree with that, but it's irrelevant. The last three PRs have been very well received. Since you're argument here is based on false readings of JWD's methods, and a misunderstanding of how Bisu played as opposed to Flash last month, there's really not much else to say.
Except: This is unprecedented in the history of Power Ranks. What is? Controversy? No, no it's not.
I'm not entirely sure what prompted this, it seems you're not a big Canata fan, but it's essentially a argument constructed of flimsy details upon a shaky foundation. JWD is doing a fine job.
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The ranks, for the most part, have been fine. The most obtuse thing about JWD is his criteria seem up in the air. Sometimes he'll go the route of Fakesteve and award players an even higher rank for playing well, in spite of the overall results. Other times he'll pull an etterstyle and rank people on what seems mostly based on bias. Sometimes he lets players retain their spot sheerly through how hypothetically good they still are, and gives the established players leeway (Bisu this month, who's biggest game was notably losing to Iris), or he'll ignore that and go with pure, unadulterated results (Zero over Jaedong).
He has a point but he gets it across in a long winded fashion.
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TLDR... but hey! HEY!!!... THUMBS UP! Nice PR!
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