Note: This month's rank and CBNC are a bit longer than usual, because immeduately after publishing them I am headed on vacation and will have a very limited ability to defend myself in this thread. Thanks for bearing with me!
ZerO once again misses PR-dom by the tiniest of margins...I'm honestly almost as disappointed as you WJ fans must be. His ZvP looked spot on against Pure in the MSL Ro16, but Zero didn't show us anything at all in his crucial ZvZs this month (vs. JD in the OSL Ro8 and in the 1set of his MSL Ro8 match with Kwanro). I'd have loved to see Zero shut up some of his doubters by turning in even a losing, but solid, performance against Jaedong — alas, he was totally overwhelmed. Without any PL notches in his belt, out of the OSL, and now one set closer to exiting the MSL as well, Zero doesn't hack it this month.
Kwanro beat Flash, proving...that he's a Zerg. His 2-1 MSL Ro16 win was rightfully overshadowed by unforgivably lackluster play in the PL playoffs — a flaw no player on this PR shares. Despite how consistent and winning Kwanro has been this season (especially relative to his own performances in seasons' past), there is no spot for him on this rank.
Flash has only played five games since last month's PR — probably because he's once again out of both major individual leagues before their quarterfinals. I'm getting pretty tired of the same old "Flash is really good, he just loses all of his games" line. Being alive in the MSL and GOM was enough to keep Flash on July's rank, but there were so many big movers this month that I just couldn't justify keeping him in the top 10. Before you Flash apologists cry foul, stop and think who you'd bump to include him. Canata made it further than Youngho in both the MSL and OSL, Skyhigh won more PL playoff games than Flash played in July (and against much tougher opponents than Flash's), Yarnc just topped him in the OSL Ro16, and Type-b smashed a player whose recent TvZ performance is much better than Flash's. And on top of all that, keep in mind that both Zero, who also bested Flash's MSL and OSL performance, and Kwanro, who 2-1d him in the MSL Ro16 — two players who have been just out of PR contention for a while now — are not even on this rank.
JangBi has a place in CBNC for getting his act together in time for Proleague playoffs (dude, he beat a Zerg!), but even with a super ace game win under his belt JB's PL playoff résumé doesn't stack up to Skyhigh's.
Leta almost imploded since July's Power Rank, going 2-6, losing to Type-b in the OSL and failing his team horribly in PL playoffs — it's actually amazing Hite played so even with CJ considering their ace (the supposed "ace match bonjwa") went 0-3 over the series. The reason Leta remains in CBNC is that his losses were — for the most part — excellent games with outcomes that should be primarily attributed to strong play from his opponents (Skyhigh, Movie, Type-b).
Not Close and No Cigar
Kal bombed the MSL Ro16 and couldn't redeem himself by beating Jangbi in PL playoffs. An underwhelming month from another guy who had the potential to make a splash in July.
On August 04 2009 00:41 drug_vict1m wrote: why oh why didnt calm end up above bisu?
Bisu's lack of games (not his fault, just scheduling) means we're left to speculate about his rightful position in this rank. And I think you'd have a very tough time convincing anyone that Calm is now a better player than "hypothetical Bisu", considering recent losses to players against which Bisu would undoubtedly be the favorite (JangBi, great, HiyA).
Not sure about high placement of Bisu, it looks to be an old way of doing PR all over again (generally accepted strength over recent performances), not that it's bad, but what's Flash doing outside of top10 then. But good stuff overall!
On August 04 2009 00:57 Magic84 wrote: Not sure about high placement of Bisu, it looks to be an old way of doing PR all over again (generally accepted strength over recent performances), not that it's bad, but what's Flash doing outside of top10 then. But good stuff overall!
The difference between Bisu-Fantasy and Flash is that Bisu and Fantasy played abnormally few games during this month because of scheduling, not losses. I try to weight results over "hypothetical strength" whenever possible, but felt it would be unfair to punish Bisu and Fantasy simply because their PL team was really good during the regular season (and, in Bisu's case, his MSL quarterfinal match is on Day 2).
ah very nice. the only bone i have to pick with this is how low Yellow[arnc] is... He's alive in the OSL ; against a first timer who's ZvZ is untested. We've seen Yarnc's deadly ZvZ before and there is a STRONG chance that Yarnc will make the OSL finals.
Iris's MSL run looks grim ; and Canata is out of both leagues, i would put Yarnc over them both and right under Effort. But hey besides that~ great PR
Really surprised to see Calm so high. I know the general idea is that starleague > proleague, but with the recent year-round format, proleague playoff performance should be quite weighted quite heavily(especially since it's the most important league by Korean standard). I mean, Calm only played in the two biggest games of his life and bombed both. Even if you excuse his loss to Jangbi because of Jangbi's excellent retro timing-attack, his loss against Great is a facepalm moment.
Otherwise, not much to comment. Not many games are being played these days, so it's pretty hard to argue anyone over another.
On August 04 2009 01:02 DreaM)XeRO wrote: ah very nice. the only bone i have to pick with this is how low Yellow[arnc] is... He's alive in the OSL ; against a first timer who's ZvZ is untested. We've seen Yarnc's deadly ZvZ before and there is a STRONG chance that Yarnc will make the OSL finals.
Iris's MSL run looks grim ; and Canata is out of both leagues, i would put Yarnc over them both and right under Effort. But hey besides that~ great PR
Come on dude, you can't base the PR on expected future results! If Yarnc's spot in the OSL finals, Iris's MSL results, and Canata's lack of individual league games will all be reflected in next month's rank
Thanks for the props though, appreciate it! And thanks for being patient ^^
I like this rank. At first, I thought it was just my fanboyism...but the arguments make sense. I had forgotten Canata qualified during this month, for example. And I've never understood Flash's special treatment.
On August 04 2009 00:57 Magic84 wrote: !!! EEJAEDONG!!!
New PR!
Calm over Effort!
Not sure about high placement of Bisu, it looks to be an old way of doing PR all over again (generally accepted strength over recent performances), not that it's bad, but what's Flash doing outside of top10 then. But good stuff overall!
What about Stork? He was THIS close to beat Fantasy's unbeatable TvP (Bisu's his teammate, so different rules apply ), also was looking like he was winning vs Effort (oh Stork, why do you suicide your army so often? T_T) and overally did good in proleague playoffs, demolishing Much and Skyhigh, and then only barely losing super ace on Zerg-favored map.
Not like I'm demanding a super high place for him, I just want to hear what do you think about him (and he's not in either CBNC nor NCANC).
On August 04 2009 01:07 ZBiR wrote: Not like I'm demanding a super high place for him, I just want to hear what do you think about him (and he's not in either CBNC nor NCANC).
Stork's in neither because I think he had a pretty middling July. Yes he did play about as we expected in PL playoffs (pretty solid) but his teammate JangBi played much better.
Stork was totally in that game against Effort until that poor decision...what a pity. A win there would have completely changed this rank...imagine if Effort didn't have to worry about PL anymore, I wonder if he would have played better against Calm?
Interesting PR this month.five zergs and four terrans in it.but only one protoss.no other toss is even close.just goes to show you how dominant zergs are nowadays.if this goes on then we'll see something similar to the six dragons emerging for the zergs.
Nice work btw JWD.thnx a lot.have fun on the vacation.
On August 04 2009 01:07 ZBiR wrote: Not like I'm demanding a super high place for him, I just want to hear what do you think about him (and he's not in either CBNC nor NCANC).
Stork's in neither because I think he had a pretty middling July. Yes he did play about as we expected in PL playoffs (pretty solid) but his teammate JangBi played much better.
Stork was totally in that game against Effort until that poor decision...what a pity. A win there would have completely changed this rank...imagine if Effort didn't have to worry about PL anymore, I wonder if he would have played better against Calm?
Yea, and I never heard of a guy who just did pro in PL suddenly burn out IN THE SAME DAY and ends up losing EIGHT GAMES IN A ROW before he finally started winning again. And game against calm was good? No need going twelve hatch every game. Even when jaedong was being overplayed, he had to play more because of his ace matches, he never went on a epic losing streak like dat.
I'm pretty sure effort's game v great wasn't a nine pool speed but nine pool lair.
Jangbi's playoff resume was more impressive than skyhigh's. When cj v khan game ended, Jangbi was at 4 - 1 and skyhigh was at 3 - 1. Skyhigh pulled ahead because he played two more games and I'm pretty sure jangbi could take on anyone on oz except for jaedong with relative ease.
On August 04 2009 01:19 MuffinDude wrote: Jangbi's playoff resume was more impressive than skyhigh's. When cj v khan game ended, Jangbi was at 4 - 1 and skyhigh was at 3 - 1. Skyhigh pulled ahead because he played two more games and I'm pretty sure jangbi could take on anyone on oz except for jaedong with relative ease.
I think 2-0ing Leta was even huger than one super ace win.
On August 04 2009 01:19 MuffinDude wrote: Jangbi's playoff resume was more impressive than skyhigh's. When cj v khan game ended, Jangbi was at 4 - 1 and skyhigh was at 3 - 1. Skyhigh pulled ahead because he played two more games and I'm pretty sure jangbi could take on anyone on oz except for jaedong with relative ease.
Exactly...Skyhigh did play more games. Though JB was held back by Stork's loss, his "hypothetical wins" just aren't as convincing as Skyhigh's actual ones. Not to mention that I think 2-0ing Leta was even huger than one super ace win.
Lol, leta was a fbh. 0 - 3 0 - 4? It was pretty bad.
And his game v snow was one of the most one sided game i've ever watched.
IMO, the SKT1 players' ranks are inflated. It is quite easy to look strong and win in a dominating fashion if you don't have to prepare for a large number of games. Also, it takes the stress off your PL practice if you know you have 3 other strong teammates.
On the other hand, I don't really see Calm or Effort being placed above Fantasy/Bisu either =(. However, I would have placed Iris above Canata. If you were allowed to leave places bank, though, I'd leave 2&3 blank, put Fantasy/Bisu at 4&5 and continue from there...
i kept reading, alt-tabbing, and then coming back to realize i had so much more to read. thank you for a nice and long PR agree with all your placements, although i think your proleague results > individual results tilt should have calm and effort switched
On August 04 2009 02:23 B1nary wrote: IMO, the SKT1 players' ranks are inflated. It is quite easy to look strong and win in a dominating fashion if you don't have to prepare for a large number of games. Also, it takes the stress off your PL practice if you know you have 3 other strong teammates.
On the other hand, I don't really see Calm or Effort being placed above Fantasy/Bisu either =(. However, I would have placed Iris above Canata. If you were allowed to leave places bank, though, I'd leave 2&3 blank, put Fantasy/Bisu at 4&5 and continue from there...
Kinda defeats the point, doesn't it? The funny thing is that last month, it seemed like there was a shortage of good candidates for the PR, but this month there are too many good performers.
I mean, it's hard to dispute that Bisu and fantasy are in the top five players around right now. And they've really done nothing that would indicate that they'd slipped. Their silence is actually an indication of how well they've played, as SKT1 is already in the grand finals.
On August 04 2009 02:05 FragKrag wrote: Flash is off! YES!
Seconded. He's been sidelined by a severe case of the fingerbooms.
On August 04 2009 02:46 tree.hugger wrote: And I said this in the other thread, but PerfectMan for CNBC. Obviously.
Why Perfectman? He did not do anything extrodinary. He displayed pro-level reaver micro; but that was it. He had ample time to prepare and was obviously sent out to snipe Iris. There was no innovation in his play. All he did was execute a perfect snipe. If anyone should be on CNBC it should be Orion. His JD snipe was MUCH more impressive than Perfectman's.
On August 04 2009 02:54 Athos wrote: I would have liked it more though if you had FireBatHero in Not Close, But no Cigar. His playoff performance was atrocious.
No doubt FBH was awful in playoffs, but so far I have been trying to reserve NCANC for guys who were on the PR last month and have sucked since. There are too many bad players to include all of them in that section
I think you went a little too hard on Kal. He played good vs JangBi despite losing and crushed Yoon completely. Although his series vs JD was just awful (not only did JD play terrific but Kal just played very poorly), I don't think he did worse than expected compared to say Leta. I mean what Protoss DO you expect to beat JD in a Bo3? Bisu? Maybe.
Great PR JWD, thank you for taking your time to maintain high quality and ignoring the whiny 13 year olds complaining about their PR not being on time.
Couldn't agree more about the Flash placement. He has been protected against his mediocre results by fanboism for too long.
I think the Power Rank should start an honorable mention section. Not the same as CBNC, more like, simply highlighted clutch and baller performances, like PerfectMan spectacular debut on the big scene.
On August 04 2009 00:41 drug_vict1m wrote: why oh why didnt calm end up above bisu?
Bisu's lack of games (not his fault, just scheduling) means we're left to speculate about his rightful position in this rank. And I think you'd have a very tough time convincing anyone that Calm is now a better player than "hypothetical Bisu", considering recent losses to players against which Bisu would undoubtedly be the favorite (JangBi, great, HiyA).
The same kind of goes for Flash, though. He and Bisu are both in one league (It is fair to say MSL is much higher priority than GOM. A strong tell is that Iris is only facing Bisu in the Quarters, but is facing Flash in the finals, so making Gom Finals seems akin to coming close to MSL semis), and both had no PL games to play in spite of or because of their monstrous performances in PL anyhow.
I actually don't entirely disagree with Flash dropping off, but since last rank specifically, he only lost to Kwanro once, right? So that'd put him 6-1 against zergs since(1-1 with Kwanro, 3-0 with July, beating TheZerg, and the Bunker Rush on Effort), and still the strongest TvT around, in a finals (of, yes, a less prestigious tournaments), and hasn't shown a weakness to protoss since your congratulations of his games against Shuttle.
He's been plagued by a lack of games, but has won the vast majority of them and has done a bit to work past his "can't beat aggressive zergs" anymore by beating the most aggressive zerg of all time. I think if he had proleague or anything else to show his playing (which is usually what keeps him in middle low ranks when he drops Starleagues) he'd definitely be on that list, but isn't in spite of the #2 and #3(specifically #3).
Hypothetical Flash is pretty good! I think his TvZ is fine, considering the 6-1 since his PR being all zergs. Atleast his non-wannabe-fantasy TvZ. It's kind of hard to fault him since the last PR, but I'm content with him being dropped due to other players stepping up, as opposed to thinking he's just bad.
fun rank anyhow. It's cool to see some new and old faces in Type-B, Iris and Arnc. Kind of sad that the next rank probably won't have Flash either since I doubt that he's gonna have an interesting month. That is, unless Iris shows up to play a stellar game to give even more props to Flash's 70% tvt.
On August 04 2009 01:07 ZBiR wrote: Not like I'm demanding a super high place for him, I just want to hear what do you think about him (and he's not in either CBNC nor NCANC).
Stork was totally in that game against Effort until that poor decision...what a pity. A win there would have completely changed this rank...imagine if Effort didn't have to worry about PL anymore, I wonder if he would have played better against Calm?
Stork was behind on upgrades throughout the game and was at 3 gas vs 4 for a very long time. I don't think breaking the sunkenline was such a big setback - yeah he lost a couple of zealots under the darkswarm but the outcome would have been the same even if effort was the aggressor. He basically made it look close by playing crackling defiler only to save gas and then running him over with ultras.
You should have waited until tomorrow tbh. Because if bisu looses tomorrow 2 games. Bisu's 3rd spot will be too good place to put him. And you could place Iris monster play lately much better. Anyhow, good PR.
There is not a single T1 player who performed as well in the month of July as Effort. It is insane to put both Bisu and Fantasy above him. Shit, I don't see how Type-b is behind them, let alone true monsters like Yarnc and Calm. This PR is a case of T1 fanboyism and PL hype clouding the reality of the past month's games.
Yes JWD has a bit of a T1 bias but I don't think it's off that Fantasy and Bisu are in the top 5, and while Calm and Effort did well, they both specifically botched the games for their respective teams to lose their chance at PL finals -- the spot Bisu and Fantasy already have because they were so good anyhow. It's a stretch and I'm sure the rose tint was a bit involved, but it's not a bad ranking. Hell every predictive rank was 1: Jaedong 2: Bisu/Fantasy 3: Bisu/Fantasy, so it wasn't unexpected.
On August 04 2009 01:07 ZBiR wrote: Not like I'm demanding a super high place for him, I just want to hear what do you think about him (and he's not in either CBNC nor NCANC).
Stork was totally in that game against Effort until that poor decision...what a pity. A win there would have completely changed this rank...imagine if Effort didn't have to worry about PL anymore, I wonder if he would have played better against Calm?
Stork was behind on upgrades throughout the game and was at 3 gas vs 4 for a very long time. I don't think breaking the sunkenline was such a big setback - yeah he lost a couple of zealots under the darkswarm but the outcome would have been the same even if effort was the aggressor. He basically made it look close by playing crackling defiler only to save gas and then running him over with ultras.
Stork's big setback was that the map prevent him from playing normal PvZ. He was pretty much dead in the water when Effort was effectively keeping his corsair number down. Nothing else really mattered, because Stork didn't have the gas to make the units that can match against a zerg army.
Personally I think Stork is back in form. I have full confidence he'll be a constant part of the PR once fall comes and maps stop being PvZ graveyards.
Yes, yes, looks like a very defensible PR here. I would've loved to see the young prince who likes queens on that podium of ten, but alas, it was not to be. I immediately faved that set... I'm still laughing.
JD is just totally imba right now. Let's see if he can indeed set a record no one will ever surpass. (Maybe with the advent of SC2, a late record set for BW will inevitably never ever be surpassed?) August will fucking rock!
JWD's slight T1 bias is the only thing tweaks these ranks for the most part. This was a nice rank.
I will say this though - Flash makes RO16 of every league virtually every time (with the only one exception being Yarnc'd out of MSL in 2008).
No player has consistently made leagues as well as Flash over the past 18 months, not even JD and Bisu (especially if BackHo hadn't hurt his back...) who have both managed to miss leagues entirely (JD got BackHo'd out of an OSL, Bisu got BackHo'd into an OSL) as well as miss RO16 in MSL, so to say that he doesn't put up any results is simply wrong. Oh yeah, he also tied for most PL wins with JD.
Still, he definitely hasn't put up results that count, and he doesn't deserve to be on this rank. But people who are saying "why does Flash's reputation protect him" need to get off the haterade, because Flash wins an enormous number of games month in and month out. That's why he's consistently on the rank, and after he beats Iris in GOM (probably 3-1 or something) he deserves to be back.
On August 04 2009 03:24 3clipse wrote: Oh man, every time I look over and see the PR bar with Calm at #4 I'm going to get tingly all over.
Nice rank. My only real gripe is rating Effort above Iris.
Don't make me laugh, Effort is a much better player than Iris. He stated that he didn't practice for gom, while Iris did. He had to prepare for his game and an ace match AND a super ace match, without being certain who would come out (although he did have a general idea of who would appear). Effort delivered almost every time he came out and he BARELY lost to Jaedong and almost took CJ to the finals. Iris has lost to odin and perfectman and looked bad doing it. The only problem is effort's horrible decision to go 12hatch on carthage. The difference between his 12hatch on byzantium and jaedong's is that when jaedong did it, zero was at cross positions and his zerglings had to take a longer route to get across the map than calm's zerglings did, which gave jaedong time to defend well.
I had a long post typed up about Flash, but I don't feel like F5ing this thread all day replying to people, so instead I'll just say that I think the illogical hatred of him on this site is getting really old, and I wonder if any of you would bet take 50-50 betting odds against the (6-2 since last PR), (#3 ELO/Kespa) Terran losing a Bo5 to anyone ranked #6-10 on this month's PR.
On August 04 2009 04:25 darktreb wrote: I will say this though - Flash makes RO16 of every league virtually every time (with the only one exception being Yarnc'd out of MSL in 2008).
No player has consistently made leagues as well as Flash over the past 18 months, not even JD and Bisu (especially if BackHo hadn't hurt his back...) who have both managed to miss leagues entirely (JD got BackHo'd out of an OSL, Bisu got BackHo'd into an OSL) as well as miss RO16 in MSL, so to say that he doesn't put up any results is simply wrong.
So wouldn't this mean that no player has consistently failed at the boX stages of leagues as Flash has?
On August 04 2009 06:23 Avidkeystamper wrote: Only against Skyhigh and Yarnc.
I can go with Yarnc but not with Skyhigh. Yarnc has incredible ZvT and Flash is very vulnerable to his play. But I think Flash is superior to Skyhigh. Skyhigh is really over-hyped. He is a good player but not as good as many people tend to believe.
On August 04 2009 04:25 darktreb wrote: I will say this though - Flash makes RO16 of every league virtually every time (with the only one exception being Yarnc'd out of MSL in 2008).
No player has consistently made leagues as well as Flash over the past 18 months, not even JD and Bisu (especially if BackHo hadn't hurt his back...) who have both managed to miss leagues entirely (JD got BackHo'd out of an OSL, Bisu got BackHo'd into an OSL) as well as miss RO16 in MSL, so to say that he doesn't put up any results is simply wrong.
So wouldn't this mean that no player has consistently failed at the boX stages of leagues as Flash has?
lol, what the hell is the point of posting such a comment.
No, it means that usually other players fail earlier...
On August 04 2009 06:41 Avidkeystamper wrote: Nope, Skyhigh's only overhyped in TvZ. His TvT is the real thing.
Yeah, it gets really stomped by Flash's.
HEH
Just kidding, but Flash is still a parallel to Bisu and Jaedong. They put up the best results in their mirror match, innovate or dominate their race-weak match (Jaedong ZvT, Bisu PvZ, and Flash TvP), and when push comes to shove, there isn't really a doubt who's the best of their race when it comes to these three. You'll have your off months with your Storks, Fantasies and Efforts, but you know a monster when you see one.
On August 04 2009 04:25 darktreb wrote: I will say this though - Flash makes RO16 of every league virtually every time (with the only one exception being Yarnc'd out of MSL in 2008).
No player has consistently made leagues as well as Flash over the past 18 months, not even JD and Bisu (especially if BackHo hadn't hurt his back...) who have both managed to miss leagues entirely (JD got BackHo'd out of an OSL, Bisu got BackHo'd into an OSL) as well as miss RO16 in MSL, so to say that he doesn't put up any results is simply wrong.
So wouldn't this mean that no player has consistently failed at the boX stages of leagues as Flash has?
lol, what the hell is the point of posting such a comment.
No, it means that usually other players fail earlier...
MuMyung used to consistently qualify for leagues too.
On August 04 2009 01:07 ZBiR wrote: Not like I'm demanding a super high place for him, I just want to hear what do you think about him (and he's not in either CBNC nor NCANC).
Stork was totally in that game against Effort until that poor decision...what a pity. A win there would have completely changed this rank...imagine if Effort didn't have to worry about PL anymore, I wonder if he would have played better against Calm?
Stork was behind on upgrades throughout the game and was at 3 gas vs 4 for a very long time. I don't think breaking the sunkenline was such a big setback - yeah he lost a couple of zealots under the darkswarm but the outcome would have been the same even if effort was the aggressor. He basically made it look close by playing crackling defiler only to save gas and then running him over with ultras.
Stork's big setback was that the map prevent him from playing normal PvZ. He was pretty much dead in the water when Effort was effectively keeping his corsair number down. Nothing else really mattered, because Stork didn't have the gas to make the units that can match against a zerg army.
Personally I think Stork is back in form. I have full confidence he'll be a constant part of the PR once fall comes and maps stop being PvZ graveyards.
I totally agree. Storks recent gameplay has been good. I think he will return very strong next season.
On August 04 2009 06:19 Hinanawi wrote: I had a long post typed up about Flash, but I don't feel like F5ing this thread all day replying to people, so instead I'll just say that I think the illogical hatred of him on this site is getting really old, and I wonder if any of you would bet take 50-50 betting odds against the (6-2 since last PR), (#3 ELO/Kespa) Terran losing a Bo5 to anyone ranked #6-10 on this month's PR.
I would easily bet on 3 people who is not even in the PR (Jangbi, Stork and Best) and I would bet on yarnc also and would give some serious thought about betting on Type-b also I might even consider skyhigh but its TvT after all so its kinda hard to bet against Flash. Since TvT is the one matchup he really seems rock solid in and can keep up with the best, while in TvP and TvZ he constantly loses vs the best in those matchups. Sure he beats everyone who is not in the top5 in those matchups, but he loses vs everyone who is lately.
Maybe he can overcome this and change it, but the fact is he constantly drops out of leagues every time he faces someone good. Sure once he don`t he goes ahead and do like in GOM crushing weak players left and right but as it is today Flash seem to need lucky draws to go far in Starleagues. (If he wins GOM its after one of the easiest roads ever)
I still think he got what it takes, but hes not been showing it the last year...
Nice PR, I wouldn't agree with Canata being so high or type-b being on the rank personally though. Flash will be back on the PR next month I'm sure when he wins GOM finals 3-0 and starts all-killing everyone in STX Masters.
On August 04 2009 03:24 3clipse wrote: Oh man, every time I look over and see the PR bar with Calm at #4 I'm going to get tingly all over.
Nice rank. My only real gripe is rating Effort above Iris.
Don't make me laugh, Effort is a much better player than Iris. He stated that he didn't practice for gom, while Iris did. He had to prepare for his game and an ace match AND a super ace match, without being certain who would come out (although he did have a general idea of who would appear). Effort delivered almost every time he came out and he BARELY lost to Jaedong and almost took CJ to the finals. Iris has lost to odin and perfectman and looked bad doing it. The only problem is effort's horrible decision to go 12hatch on carthage. The difference between his 12hatch on byzantium and jaedong's is that when jaedong did it, zero was at cross positions and his zerglings had to take a longer route to get across the map than calm's zerglings did, which gave jaedong time to defend well.
Of course Effort is better than Iris. You're disputing a point I never made. You'd be batshit insane, however, to say that Effort has had a better month than Iris. Apparently we disagree on the function of the PR.
I don't think many people would dispute Flash is still the best terran player in StarCraft but he hasn't put up results in the past month simply because he lost in the MSL/OSL early, and after all the Power Ranking is a...well, uh, a power ranking. Pretty nice PR JWD, you can't please everyone but you did a good job.
On August 04 2009 07:42 DrTJEckleburg wrote: I don't think many people would dispute Flash is still the best terran player in StarCraft but he hasn't put up results in the past month simply because he lost in the MSL/OSL early, and after all the Power Ranking is a...well, uh, a power ranking. Pretty nice PR JWD, you can't please everyone but you did a good job.
Many people dispute Stork's position as the best Protoss player in Starcraft, so why not Flash's as the best Terran?
In my opinion Skyhigh, Yarnc, type-b all did better than Canata.
Canata dropped out of both leagues (yes it was to jaedong and fantasy), but losing shouldn't make you rank up. I still don't understand how Skyhigh, Yarnc, and type-b WIN all their games while Canata LOSES them, but Canata is still ranked higher. Of course he gave exciting games against Jaedong, but Skyhigh demolished Leta and the Oz terrans, Yarnc tore apart Go.Go, and Type-B also took out Leta.
IMO Canata for rank 9 or 10 I don't see how you can justify him ranking up
As for others, I think you should've waited for a week to do the PR. You should've waited for the proleague grand finals. That way you would be able to rank the top 3 much easier
On August 04 2009 07:42 DrTJEckleburg wrote: I don't think many people would dispute Flash is still the best terran player in StarCraft but he hasn't put up results in the past month simply because he lost in the MSL/OSL early, and after all the Power Ranking is a...well, uh, a power ranking. Pretty nice PR JWD, you can't please everyone but you did a good job.
Many people dispute Stork's position as the best Protoss player in Starcraft, so why not Flash's as the best Terran?
Stork is by and large not considered the best Protoss in starcraft, that would definitely be Bisu, and yeah, it'd be pretty hard to not consider the only protoss with three major titles not the best thusfar.
Stork had a startling consistency with a knack for choking, but hell Bisu is the one that started Stork on his silver run, didn't he?
On August 04 2009 03:24 3clipse wrote: Oh man, every time I look over and see the PR bar with Calm at #4 I'm going to get tingly all over.
Nice rank. My only real gripe is rating Effort above Iris.
Don't make me laugh, Effort is a much better player than Iris. He stated that he didn't practice for gom, while Iris did. He had to prepare for his game and an ace match AND a super ace match, without being certain who would come out (although he did have a general idea of who would appear). Effort delivered almost every time he came out and he BARELY lost to Jaedong and almost took CJ to the finals. Iris has lost to odin and perfectman and looked bad doing it. The only problem is effort's horrible decision to go 12hatch on carthage. The difference between his 12hatch on byzantium and jaedong's is that when jaedong did it, zero was at cross positions and his zerglings had to take a longer route to get across the map than calm's zerglings did, which gave jaedong time to defend well.
Of course Effort is better than Iris. You're disputing a point I never made. You'd be batshit insane, however, to say that Effort has had a better month than Iris. Apparently we disagree on the function of the PR.
Hahaha I already pointed out how iris lost to odin and perfectman and looked terrible. It's not like he had to prepare for as many games as effort did either. Do you even watch proleague?
On August 04 2009 06:19 Hinanawi wrote: I had a long post typed up about Flash, but I don't feel like F5ing this thread all day replying to people, so instead I'll just say that I think the illogical hatred of him on this site is getting really old, and I wonder if any of you would bet take 50-50 betting odds against the (6-2 since last PR), (#3 ELO/Kespa) Terran losing a Bo5 to anyone ranked #6-10 on this month's PR.
There's no illogical hatred at all, what are you talking about? He lost to calm and kal right before that pl went up and he looked terrible. He lost to kwanro twice, bbsed Effort, beat thezerg (an sktt1 zerg lol) and 3-0ed july in Gom, the only tournament he had to prepare for. He's not even in the OSL because of his poor performance and he didn't even qualify for proleague, although that was more of his team's fault.
On August 04 2009 06:23 Avidkeystamper wrote: Only against Skyhigh and Yarnc.
I can go with Yarnc but not with Skyhigh. Yarnc has incredible ZvT and Flash is very vulnerable to his play. But I think Flash is superior to Skyhigh. Skyhigh is really over-hyped. He is a good player but not as good as many people tend to believe.
On August 04 2009 08:20 tobi9999 wrote: In my opinion Skyhigh, Yarnc, type-b all did better than Canata.
Canata dropped out of both leagues (yes it was to jaedong and fantasy), but losing shouldn't make you rank up. I still don't understand how Skyhigh, Yarnc, and type-b WIN all their games while Canata LOSES them, but Canata is still ranked higher. Of course he gave exciting games against Jaedong, but Skyhigh demolished Leta and the Oz terrans, Yarnc tore apart Go.Go, and Type-B also took out Leta.
IMO Canata for rank 9 or 10 I don't see how you can justify him ranking up
As for others, I think you should've waited for a week to do the PR. You should've waited for the proleague grand finals. That way you would be able to rank the top 3 much easier
Oz terrans are not good at TvT, hiya is only good for TvP and Lomo is only good for TvZ. Canata didn't have a chance to play proleague for awhile, but that's because sktt1 is already in the finals, like JWD already said. Leta has been in a little slump lately, so beating him isn't as awe-inspiring, although they were admittedly very important to CJ's win over Hite. Canata made it to the quarterfinals of OSL AND MSL, where he lost to Jaedong and Fantasy as you said. Although he lost 2-0 to Fantasy, he nearly beat Jaedong and left with a 3-2 score. yarnc beating go.go isn't impressive at all, he's not even close to being among the top 5 terrans. Type-b taking out leta is impressive, but since they are teammates, leta wasn't able to use his seemingly unbeatable 2port wraith because type-b must have practiced against it a million times. Canata used to be this boring defensive player who didn't really make it that far in individual leagues and won a couple of games for sktt1 in the proleague to a much smarter, aggressive player that was actually fun to watch and easy to cheer for. Canata beating Jaedong on Outsider with a single vulture? Come on, who wasn't impressed? There's a rank every month, the results of the grand finals will have an impact on the next rank, but Jaedong is definitely on top and Fantasy and Bisu are pretty much about the same level right now.
On August 04 2009 07:42 DrTJEckleburg wrote: I don't think many people would dispute Flash is still the best terran player in StarCraft but he hasn't put up results in the past month simply because he lost in the MSL/OSL early, and after all the Power Ranking is a...well, uh, a power ranking. Pretty nice PR JWD, you can't please everyone but you did a good job.
Many people dispute Stork's position as the best Protoss player in Starcraft, so why not Flash's as the best Terran?
Stork is by and large not considered the best Protoss in starcraft, that would definitely be Bisu, and yeah, it'd be pretty hard to not consider the only protoss with three major titles not the best thusfar.
Stork had a startling consistency with a knack for choking, but hell Bisu is the one that started Stork on his silver run, didn't he?
Stork was by and large considered the best Protoss in Starcraft, just as Flash was by and large considered the best Terran in Starcraft. Neither of them played up to S-Class standards after failing out of last season's starleagues. Fantasy < Bisu, and fanboyism, allowed Flash to pretend he was still the strongest for much longer than Stork, but... you can't champion your race if you get raped by the other two.
lol have you idiots forgotten the meaning of the power rank? So many people here are arguing results and not quality of game play, which is what the power rank has ALWAYS been about. Under djetter, fake steve, oneother, manifesto, jwd, everyone. Its always been about quality, never about results. Thats why july when he breezed through an easy as fuck starleague didn't get number one on the power rank. Thats why when flash cheesed his way to the semi finals of daum he didn't break into the top 4. THINK people.
On August 04 2009 08:51 Ideas wrote: is this the 1st time flash is off the PR since he was 1st on it?
Is it hard to scroll down a page and see for yourself? And no, its not the first time.
On August 04 2009 08:20 tobi9999 wrote: In my opinion Skyhigh, Yarnc, type-b all did better than Canata.
Canata dropped out of both leagues (yes it was to jaedong and fantasy), but losing shouldn't make you rank up.
IMO Canata for rank 9 or 10 I don't see how you can justify him ranking up
Allow me. HE PLAYED GOOD. That is the ONLY justification the power rank has ever needed and the only one that will EVER exist. He played GOOD. Iris got I believe...2nd maybe 3rd on the power rank for LOSING to Savior back in Shinhan, why cant canata go up two fucking slots for showing a drastic improvement in play even if it didn't result in a league win? How are you...
ill get banned if I stay in this thread any longer. ^_^
It's actually interesting that Proleague has unseated OSL/MSL/GOM. It is very clear that Proleague is more important than the individual leagues and because there are so many games in a series, two ace players will play each other multiple times, in in front of not just fans but in front of teammates, the largest pressure-appliers ever.
On August 04 2009 07:42 DrTJEckleburg wrote: I don't think many people would dispute Flash is still the best terran player in StarCraft but he hasn't put up results in the past month simply because he lost in the MSL/OSL early, and after all the Power Ranking is a...well, uh, a power ranking. Pretty nice PR JWD, you can't please everyone but you did a good job.
Many people dispute Stork's position as the best Protoss player in Starcraft, so why not Flash's as the best Terran?
Stork is by and large not considered the best Protoss in starcraft, that would definitely be Bisu, and yeah, it'd be pretty hard to not consider the only protoss with three major titles not the best thusfar.
Stork had a startling consistency with a knack for choking, but hell Bisu is the one that started Stork on his silver run, didn't he?
Stork was by and large considered the best Protoss in Starcraft, just as Flash was by and large considered the best Terran in Starcraft. Neither of them played up to S-Class standards after failing out of last season's starleagues. Fantasy < Bisu, and fanboyism, allowed Flash to pretend he was still the strongest for much longer than Stork, but... you can't champion your race if you get raped by the other two.
That's pretty harsh if you think people only champion Flash because of fanboyism. That's not only a disservice to anyone who's supported him, but to Flash and his accomplishments. Flash won his starleague nearly four seasons ago, and low and behold he's still got a winrate that only falls short to Jaedong -- obviously proof that he's never deserved to champion the race.
It's clear Flash has hit a rough patch, but don't pretend he just won a starleague and started sucking. He's put up monster results in proleague for the longest damn time, going through 90% of it with weaker back up than Jaedong has right now. Didn't he make every top 16 of every tournament he was in since his starleague run(and most of the time hit top 8, though this season was more disappointing with the group of death and Kwanro's upset)? If not then I apologize, but both Jaedong and Bisu have had bigger slumps than this.
People act like Flash suddenly becomes terrible whenever he doesn't win a starleague. MrHoon put it wonderfully here -- Flash always gets the short end of the stick around here. The only time he gets championed by people who aren't his fans are when it's so undeniable that you look like a fool to say otherwise.
I'm fine to admit that Fantasy is the stand out Terran right now, and that Skyhigh is the one hogging the 'potential' spotlight, but I think everyone here dissing Flash needs to understand he's both accomplished more than Fantasy -- both in titles and in changing the game -- and he's younger than SkyHigh. It's fine to say Flash isn't hot right now (he isn't!), but it's more than just fanboys who've championed Flash. Flash earned the fuck out of his position as best Terran. Fantasy is the one that has to prove himself.
WTH, Flash being over-hyped. Lol what? Sure he doesn't produce great result recently and the end of this season was really bad for him so he deserves being off the PR. I would still like to see him somewhere at the bottom but can't argue with him not being there. It is fair and square.
But saying he is over-hyped is such a BS. This kid is on 67% overall winrate only below Jaedong. He's been carrying his team all the time and he had the highest number of wins in proleague. Obviously not an achievement at all.
Also if you haven't, please go check his last 10 TvT. He won against all top Terrans out there in incredibly epic games. I suppose that was just luck.
In his weakest match-up he has winning percentage of 63%. Again nothing spectacular,there are so many players that don't have weak match-up right?
But for some reason people at TL alawys judge Flash much more harshly than any other progamer. Maybe Jaedong is judged equally harshly but he has so many fanboys that always defend him (often rightfully so) that it doesn't seem as unfair. On the other hand Flash is been criticised at TL all the time and since he's lacking the support all those haters are too visible.
Flash is criticized because even though he puts up results his team doesn't do well in proleague (although not his entirely his fault... but his ace match record isn't impeccable either), and he always somehow gets stoned out of starleagues in RO8/RO16 even though he consistently makes it into RO16. Much like people like Sea. And look where that got Sea... mediocrity (unfortunately).
Flash needs to win leagues for people to take him seriously as a top player... Fantasy, in this regard, has done fairly well by making the past 2 OSL finals, but he will have to demonstrate that he can step it up a notch and win one if he wants to be considered the best.
Flash winning GOM is a start. If they have the bo5 vs. Jaedong after that and he wins that will go a long way to proving he still has it.
We shall see.
BTW, nice rank JWD. I do think Canata is a bit high... but as a SKT + Canata fan I'll take it. :p And here's to hoping Bisu demolishes Iris tonight.
My first exposure to professional Starcraft was GomTV season 1, and GSI; it was made clear to me that Flash is a baller. I'm fully aware that Flash was a juggernaut, is not overhyped, and may well come back to be the best player in the world again.
But he is not playing like a champion... he is playing like a sick TvT specialist. He gets reamed by players with good PvT or good ZvT, and this has been true for going on half a year. Jaedong/Bisu dominate all matchups (maybe Effort too), Fantasy/Stork/Jangbi/Yarnc/Calm can play at least two matchups like pimps and survive their weak one (maybe Leta too).
On August 04 2009 11:57 Severedevil wrote: My first exposure to professional Starcraft was GomTV season 1, and GSI; it was made clear to me that Flash is a baller. I'm fully aware that Flash was a juggernaut, is not overhyped, and may well come back to be the best player in the world again.
But he is not playing like a champion... he is playing like a sick TvT specialist. He gets reamed by players with good PvT or good ZvT, and this has been true for going on half a year. Jaedong/Bisu dominate all matchups (maybe Effort too), Fantasy/Stork/Jangbi/Yarnc/Calm can play at least two matchups like pimps and survive their weak one (maybe Leta too).
Flash needs to hulk back up.
Stick fantasy up there with Jaedong/Bisu. His TvP is seriously S class, and his TvT is solid. Don't forget that when he ISNT playing some stupid bio shit, Fantasy has some seriously dangerous TvZ skills as well. Stork/Jangbi/Yarnc/Calm/Effort/Leta imo are getting there. The day Jangbi bulks up his PvZ is gonna be the day every programmer dies. Fo'realz~ His PvT is Stork's level, His PvP is ABOVE stork's level. He is basically Stork v.2 ; everything Stork has amplified
On August 04 2009 11:57 Severedevil wrote: My first exposure to professional Starcraft was GomTV season 1, and GSI; it was made clear to me that Flash is a baller. I'm fully aware that Flash was a juggernaut, is not overhyped, and may well come back to be the best player in the world again.
But he is not playing like a champion... he is playing like a sick TvT specialist. He gets reamed by players with good PvT or good ZvT, and this has been true for going on half a year. Jaedong/Bisu dominate all matchups (maybe Effort too), Fantasy/Stork/Jangbi/Yarnc/Calm can play at least two matchups like pimps and survive their weak one (maybe Leta too).
Flash needs to hulk back up.
Stick fantasy up there with Jaedong/Bisu. His TvP is seriously S class, and his TvT is solid. Don't forget that when he ISNT playing some stupid bio shit, Fantasy has some seriously dangerous TvZ skills as well. Stork/Jangbi/Yarnc/Calm/Effort/Leta imo are getting there. The day Jangbi bulks up his PvZ is gonna be the day every programmer dies. Fo'realz~ His PvT is Stork's level, His PvP is ABOVE stork's level. He is basically Stork v.2 ; everything Stork has amplified
No. Don't you fucking dare retroactively give Fantasy an S class level tvz cause thats a load of crap. He's an s class series player, and thats the only time fantasy has looked anything above mediocre in tvz- and even that was due to his strong macro carrying his tvz in pl.
On August 04 2009 13:13 iamho wrote: why is canata so high? he went 5-2 in both ro8s, and his only wins were with bunker rush openings
1) Both his wins were against Jaedong, and fantasy's TvT isn't that bad either. Also he got to the Ro8. In two leagues. 2) Bunker rushes are becoming a standard part of the TvZ opening game, either to buy time for mech tech or just to disrupt the opening flow. So it's not really a knock on Canata to say he used a bunker rush opening - especially as he was facing Jaedong. You do what you have to to win.
Does anyone realize that Flash has not simply reached the finals of GOM, but he has done so without losing a single game? For all those who say he only does well in TvT, during this incredible run he has yet to play a single mirror match! He has very convincingly defeated 3 protosses and 2 zergs. Sure maybe GOM is not the most prestigious tournament, but it does have the largest prize. It's not like players don't try because it isn't prestigious enough.
That being said, he hasn't had much of a chance to prove himself this past month, and I think it's fair to let other players bask in the glory of being in the PR.
Anyway, I'll expect to see Flash back in the top 10 after he wins GOM, and I am also looking forward to seeing some all-kills in the STX Masters. KT Fingerboom Fighting! (I feel like I debase the serious tone of my post by mentioning the word "Fingerboom")
Flash out seems way too harsh, sorry. What's wrong with spot number 9 or 10? Undefeated in GOM, IMO favorite to beat Iris, type-B, skyhigh, canata, Fantasy, Calm in Bo5 play. It seems like people give Flash way too much hate for not winning everything. Kid is young, already has OSL gold, is about to get GSI gold, can't carry his team through PL because they suck, makes stupid mistakes in important matches, but whatever. I honestly cannot understand people taking Fantasy over Flash in general MU and skill, let alone dropping him from the freaking POWER RANK. Is Flash not a top 10 player in SC? Seems like he was dropped just to make a statement...
Anyways. Curious about why you don't approve Plexa! Let us know!
great ranking and i agree with most (err the calm vs. effort thing is debatable IMO) but i have to ask: are you permanently mad at jangbi (and stork as well) after last month? i think jangbi could have made the 10, let alone CBNC.
Flash? Out of top 10? What the hell is going on.. If anything, he should at least have gotten #10 but #8 would have sounded more reasonable. Flash being out of PR is madness. Granted, Fantasy had more success in Starleagues than Flash had recently, but to me Flash will always > Fantasy until Fantasy can prove himself alot more by winning a title or more and raping it up in the PLs.
It's easy to forget that Flash carried his team as far as humanly possible this year. Bisu and Jaedong both get well-deserved credit for being monsters in proleague, but if KT didn't completely suck they too would have made the playoffs easily with the support Flash has given them.
I don't disagree strongly with Flash's exclusion from this rank, but I do think that Flash critics fail to understand that what Jaedong did for OZ this year, Flash did for KT, except that KT-without-Flash sucked even worse than OZ-without-JD. Too bad for Flash.
Also the kid has been quietly winning GOM like a nuclear stealth torpedo. If he loses this tournament I will be in shock. Flash has been the king of TvT ever since the GSI/Bacchus period.
Edit: basically what I'm saying is that the only reason why we have no tangible evidence this year of how good Flash is, is that his team is fucking atrocious. How do you not make the playoffs when you have the player tied for most wins with Jaedong? Good god Luxury, to think that you were once S-class just makes my head spin.
Flash will always be cursed by the expectations people place on him. For baseball fans, he reminds me a lot of Kerry Wood actually. Hopefully Flash's career turns out better.
Kerry Wood tied a major league record in striking out 20 batters in just his fifth start (and as a 20 year old). I remember watching this game and as ridiculous as it sounds, he didn't "just strike out 20 batters" ... he absolutely murdered the Houston lineup. This wasn't a crummy lineup either - it had some great hitters including two future Hall of Famers (Jeff Bagwell and Craig Biggio) in their primes. The only hit Houston got was an infield dribbler that went 60 feet and was bobbled by the third basemen (easily could have been an error), and by many accounts it was the most dominant game ever pitched.
Naturally, people went insane about Wood. What everyone forgot was that he was just 20 years old (extremely young for a baseball player in the big leagues) and that a lot of things can happen. If you want to read more about Kerry Wood, I would recommend this great article by the New York Times at http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/03/sports/playmagazine/0603play-wood.html
When Flash took down Jaedong (reigning OSL champion), Bisu, and Stork (previous OSL runner up and indisputed best PvT player) in succession at age FIFTEEN (since then I don't think a single progamer has even qualified for OSL at that age) in Bacchus, it was hard not to look at him the same way. Flash went 8-2 against JD/Bisu/Stork, with 6-1 against Bisu/Stork and 3-1 on Troy/Katrina, two of the worst TvP maps of all time. It feels like an eternity ago but Flash is STILL younger than Jaedong was when he won his first Starleague (and Jaedong is the youngest Starleague winner ever other than Flash). Ever since then, the expectations have been clear - become the greatest player of all time, or you're a failure.
Lately, Flash has been a failure, at least by everyone's standards (and I'm sure he would admit he hasn't lived up to his own expectations either). I don't think Flash fans are oversupporting him here - we're just as frustrated as everyone else that he doesn't do better, and many of us are perfectly ok with him not being on this PR. We expect more of him too.
What's annoying is people saying things like "finally he's off the PR" as if his 53-19 record in PL (one loss better than Jaedong by the way), making GOM finals without a loss, and making both leagues again is absolutely meaningless. I just want to know:
- Why are Flash's losses to Calm and Kal on his birthday so much more heavily scrutinized than Jaedong blowing PL games that cost Oz first place? Both had similar schedules at the time (Flash actually played more games in June). Also Calm has proven himself to be a very good ZvT player and Kal isn't exactly a scrub either.
- Why are Flash's losses to Yarnc and JD so much less defensible than Skyhigh absolutely BLOWING two straight games to Zero? Not to mention Skyhigh 1-2 July while Flash 3-0'd him ... and this is coming from a huge Skyhigh fan. Yarnc and JD are arguably the two best ZvT players in the world - yes Flash's builds were not smart but two weeks earlier everyone was hailing the "new Flash build" after he rolled multiple mediocre Zergs in a row with them.
No, Flash doesn't deserve to be on this PR. But he doesn't deserve the hate he's getting. Did everyone forget that he absolutely crushed Canata in MSL? Is there any doubt Flash would have gone to RO8 if he'd faced Piano like Canata did instead of the ultimate wildcard Kwanro? Hell, he probably would have made OSL RO8 in Canata's group there as well. Did everyone forget that Skyhigh TvZ'd his way out of GOM and MSL? Or that type-b has played like 15 games total in the past 2 months? Many players have had weak spots but somehow Flash's just get magnified by a factor of 10. He's not the greatest player ever, or even the best Terran player right now, get over it guys. Sorry he "disappointed" everyone. All I know is he has the second highest winning percentage out of all players behind JD, and that in three months Canata will be forgotten again and Skyhigh still won't be better than him. Count on it.
This is a monthly ranking, Flash isn't here because his recent performance has been bad. Stop talking about bo5s or whatever because that kind of argument makes no sense. Being a top 10 player and showing skills and results in a month is different.
On August 04 2009 19:00 ghostWriter wrote: This is a monthly ranking, Flash isn't here because his recent performance has been bad. Stop talking about bo5s or whatever because that kind of argument makes no sense. Being a top 10 player and showing skills and results in a month is different.
how the hell is being in GOM Final WITHOUT a single loss bad by any standard?! This PW rank is terrible joke, please fix.You put there players who reach semis or won few PL matches, but no place for finalist? Reconsider your standards.
On August 04 2009 19:00 ghostWriter wrote: This is a monthly ranking, Flash isn't here because his recent performance has been bad. Stop talking about bo5s or whatever because that kind of argument makes no sense. Being a top 10 player and showing skills and results in a month is different.
It's the power rank. It's monthly, but it's also supposed to paint a picture of the top 10 SC players. I just don't see how Flash isn't top 10.
On August 04 2009 18:39 darktreb wrote: Flash will always be cursed by the expectations people place on him. For baseball fans, he reminds me a lot of Kerry Wood actually. Hopefully Flash's career turns out better.
Kerry Wood tied a major league record in striking out 20 batters in just his fifth start (and as a 20 year old). I remember watching this game and as ridiculous as it sounds, he didn't "just strike out 20 batters" ... he absolutely murdered the Houston lineup. This wasn't a crummy lineup either - it had some great hitters including two future Hall of Famers (Jeff Bagwell and Craig Biggio) in their primes. The only hit Houston got was an infield dribbler that went 60 feet and was bobbled by the third basemen (easily could have been an error), and by many accounts it was the most dominant game ever pitched.
Naturally, people went insane about Wood. What everyone forgot was that he was just 20 years old (extremely young for a baseball player in the big leagues) and that a lot of things can happen. If you want to read more about Kerry Wood, I would recommend this great article by the New York Times at http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/03/sports/playmagazine/0603play-wood.html
When Flash took down Jaedong (reigning OSL champion), Bisu, and Stork (previous OSL runner up and indisputed best PvT player) in succession at age FIFTEEN (since then I don't think a single progamer has even qualified for OSL at that age) in Bacchus, it was hard not to look at him the same way. Flash went 8-2 against JD/Bisu/Stork, with 6-1 against Bisu/Stork and 3-1 on Troy/Katrina, two of the worst TvP maps of all time. It feels like an eternity ago but Flash is STILL younger than Jaedong was when he won his first Starleague (and Jaedong is the youngest Starleague winner ever other than Flash). Ever since then, the expectations have been clear - become the greatest player of all time, or you're a failure.
Lately, Flash has been a failure, at least by everyone's standards (and I'm sure he would admit he hasn't lived up to his own expectations either). I don't think Flash fans are oversupporting him here - we're just as frustrated as everyone else that he doesn't do better, and many of us are perfectly ok with him not being on this PR. We expect more of him too.
What's annoying is people saying things like "finally he's off the PR" as if his 53-19 record in PL (one loss better than Jaedong by the way), making GOM finals without a loss, and making both leagues again is absolutely meaningless. I just want to know:
- Why are Flash's losses to Calm and Kal on his birthday so much more heavily scrutinized than Jaedong blowing PL games that cost Oz first place? Both had similar schedules at the time (Flash actually played more games in June). Also Calm has proven himself to be a very good ZvT player and Kal isn't exactly a scrub either.
- Why are Flash's losses to Yarnc and JD so much less defensible than Skyhigh absolutely BLOWING two straight games to Zero? Not to mention Skyhigh 1-2 July while Flash 3-0'd him ... and this is coming from a huge Skyhigh fan. Yarnc and JD are arguably the two best ZvT players in the world - yes Flash's builds were not smart but two weeks earlier everyone was hailing the "new Flash build" after he rolled multiple mediocre Zergs in a row with them.
No, Flash doesn't deserve to be on this PR. But he doesn't deserve the hate he's getting. Did everyone forget that he absolutely crushed Canata in MSL? Is there any doubt Flash would have gone to RO8 if he'd faced Piano like Canata did instead of the ultimate wildcard Kwanro? Hell, he probably would have made OSL RO8 in Canata's group there as well. Did everyone forget that Skyhigh TvZ'd his way out of GOM and MSL? Or that type-b has played like 15 games total in the past 2 months? Many players have had weak spots but somehow Flash's just get magnified by a factor of 10. He's not the greatest player ever, or even the best Terran player right now, get over it guys. Sorry he "disappointed" everyone. All I know is he has the second highest winning percentage out of all players behind JD, and that in three months Canata will be forgotten again and Skyhigh still won't be better than him. Count on it.
You got a very good, valid point there darktreb. I don't think people give Flash the proper respect or credit that he deserves (or not enough I should say). People already seem to forget what he's done or accomplished. Yeah, he's not stacked with trophies like JD or Bisu but the kid is a winning machine. He just needs to learn which matches to win that counts. You know, I used to hate Flash myself (I guess cause of his rivalry with JD) but starting since last year, I started to respect the kid alot and eventually end up liking him. I believe that one of these days, he's going to unleash his rage like JD and just start stomping everyone, eventually taking another or 2 Starleagues. He still has alot of potentials. Right now, he just needs to recoup himself.
On August 04 2009 16:57 Djabanete wrote: It's easy to forget that Flash carried his team as far as humanly possible this year. Bisu and Jaedong both get well-deserved credit for being monsters in proleague, but if KT didn't completely suck they too would have made the playoffs easily with the support Flash has given them.
I don't disagree strongly with Flash's exclusion from this rank, but I do think that Flash critics fail to understand that what Jaedong did for OZ this year, Flash did for KT, except that KT-without-Flash sucked even worse than OZ-without-JD. Too bad for Flash.
Also the kid has been quietly winning GOM like a nuclear stealth torpedo. If he loses this tournament I will be in shock. Flash has been the king of TvT ever since the GSI/Bacchus period.
Edit: basically what I'm saying is that the only reason why we have no tangible evidence this year of how good Flash is, is that his team is fucking atrocious. How do you not make the playoffs when you have the player tied for most wins with Jaedong? Good god Luxury, to think that you were once S-class just makes my head spin.
Very true sir. Indeed, Flash did his job better as he had the best winning percentage of the two
Interestingly enough, Bisu almost nabbed (gee thanks Boxer/Mong) most wins on a team with plenty of ace options and had a far better win percentage than either of the two.
Yeah, that's the cool thing about it. Every game, except for one, that Jaedong and Flash had to play more than Bisu, they lost. They're honestly just a LITTLE better.
Though Bisu does have far more leniency than the two.
I'm still not 100% sure if I agree with flash not being in the top 10 - tbh I'm just not exactly sure what he power rank is trying to represent - is it who has been showing the best games this month - or is it who - skill lvl wise - are the best players. Because if it's the ladder flash should still be included in this list.
Either way, reading something like "Flash is really good, he just loses all of his games" actually makes me kind of sick, go to TLPD and take a look at how many games his won and how many games he lost. 6-1 in his last games, all in TvZ which is his supposed "weak" mu, in june he even had a 10 game winning streak. He is 29-11 in his last 40 games, that is a 72.5 % winning rate... so winning 72.5% of your games is now considered "losing all of his games" ???
Also is it just me being retarded or does this sentence really not make sense? "Skyhigh won more PL playoff games than Flash played in July" I mean.. Flash didn't even play in the playoffs because his team sucks so much, how is that a fair comparison, or is there something I'm not getting here?
Kinda sad that JWD can't defend himself against the skt1 fanboyism accusations and stuff like this, but still.
And if you just care about the big games we had, sure we didn't even see flash (which is barely his fault though) so I'm not sure I have a problem with him not being in the PR if it's just about who showed the best games in the last month but... I get angry when people complain about how "bad" he is.
On August 04 2009 22:09 TwoToneTerran wrote: Yeah, that's the cool thing about it. Every game, except for one, that Jaedong and Flash had to play more than Bisu, they lost. They're honestly just a LITTLE better.
Though Bisu does have far more leniency than the two.
I would say that makes them a little worse, not better.
On August 04 2009 22:09 TwoToneTerran wrote: Yeah, that's the cool thing about it. Every game, except for one, that Jaedong and Flash had to play more than Bisu, they lost. They're honestly just a LITTLE better.
Though Bisu does have far more leniency than the two.
I would say that makes them a little worse, not better.
Bisu has a much easier time in PL than either of them and didn't put up as many wins. I'm sure if his team was atrocious and he was worked to the bone -- to the point where he couldn't even prioritize individual leagues (of which he's worse than Flash in, lately) -- he could possibly put up more wins, but he's got it easy compared to the two guys who beat him.
A better percentage is nice, but it comes at the boon of an easier run in general. It's like how July owned his last OSL victory -- that doesn't make it a better win than someone who struggled through their OSL (Yay Savior).
On August 04 2009 22:09 TwoToneTerran wrote: Yeah, that's the cool thing about it. Every game, except for one, that Jaedong and Flash had to play more than Bisu, they lost. They're honestly just a LITTLE better.
Though Bisu does have far more leniency than the two.
I would say that makes them a little worse, not better.
Bisu has a much easier time in PL than either of them and didn't put up as many wins. I'm sure if his team was atrocious and he was worked to the bone -- to the point where he couldn't even prioritize individual leagues (of which he's worse than Flash in, lately) -- he could possibly put up more wins, but he's got it easy compared to the two guys who beat him.
A better percentage is nice, but it comes at the boon of an easier run in general. It's like how July owned his last OSL victory -- that doesn't make it a better win than someone who struggled through their OSL (Yay Savior).
If Bisu had played as many games as Flash or Jaedong, he would have won that title outright and probably by a healthy margin, unless you're seriously suggesting he would have gone 0-10 or some such number. So no, they're not better, because they needed significantly more games to match his record. It's that simple, just as it is safe to assume that Bisu would have won at least 30% of the remainder of the games needed to match Flash's total played record.
A team that goes 9-5 is not generally considered better than a team that goes 8-1, for example. One can safely assume that the 8-1 team would win at least one more of its 5 remaining games.
The rest of your argument doesn't follow or make any sense at all.
Yeah, sure, Bisu would totally do better if he was 100% always the ace for his team and always had to split his practice up.
That's daft, man. If he was the ace for SKT everytime and played the same number of games he'd have even less wins then right now. He gets the benefit of only having to practice for the ace match half of the damn time.
You're thinking purely in numbers instead of the reasons behind the numbers. I'm not even arguing that either Jaedong or Flash are more dominant in PL -- it's hard to say, but they definitely do similarly as well with much much more on their plate than Bisu. I don't know what else to say.
On August 05 2009 00:53 TwoToneTerran wrote: Yeah, sure, Bisu would totally do better if he was 100% always the ace for his team and always had to split his practice up.
That's daft, man. If he was the ace for SKT everytime and played the same number of games he'd have even less wins then right now. He gets the benefit of only having to practice for the ace match half of the damn time.
You're thinking purely in numbers instead of the reasons behind the numbers. I'm not even arguing that either Jaedong or Flash are more dominant in PL -- it's hard to say, but they definitely do similarly as well with much much more on their plate than Bisu. I don't know what else to say.
Now see, your mistake now is foraging off into extremely speculative theory, and thus you have little to base your argument on. an 8-1 team going 10-4 overall is not an unreasonable assumption, and yes that does factor in exhaustion. Your "what ifs" extend far beyond that, as you don't know how they would have performed with less games since we don't have any way to properly calculate how much exhaustion actually did affect their play versus the more opportunities to win that more games creates.
In any case, you're getting ridiculously tangenial. The point remains that Bisu winning a single game less while having played quite a few less games is quite an impressive feat, and thus to claim that Jaedong or Flash were better than him because of that single win is completely unfounded. We have every reason to assume Bisu had a very good chance of winning that last game he was denied the chance to play by Boxer and Mong, which in and of itself blows your exhaustion argument out of the water.
Yes, please, boil down everything I say into "what ifs" even though Bisu clearly had less responsibilities and demonstrably less to practice for. Everytime a player is asked a reason to their success, what do you think they always say? Practice. It's what turns chumps like Frozean into a legitimate Jaedong sniper, or an upstart like Violet into someone who can not only beat Bisu, but do so convincingly.
Bisu had less to practice for, plain and simple. Bisu is not on a one man show team, he is not the ace 95 to 100% of the time (Flash takes a hit here because KT HAS run people like ForGG instead of him, unlike Oz), he has more practice for the games he gets to play. If you somehow don't understand that this isn't a strong reason why Bisu's win rate is so monstrously high, then you're either confused as to what progamers have time and again acredit their wins to, or you're utterly convinced that Bisu's just the bestest best thing to hit starcraft.
At first I read this PR and thought it made a lot of sense. Sure, Canata seemed a bit too high and Iris a bit too low, and the arrangement of Effort, Calm, and Bisu was more a matter of taste than of certainty. JWD's exclusion of Flash was seemed shaky, but his justification made it seem a lot more reasonable.
Then I read some of the comments from Flash fans. Not his fanboys, his fans. And they convinced me. Not with sentiments, but with facts. Leaving Flash off this power rank was absolutely wrong. He's out of the OSL and MSL, true enough. But he made the finals of GOM. GOM is a less prestigious tournament. It's missing players from several teams (including prominent ones like SKT and Hite), and the progamers who do enter the tournament place practicing for it at the bottom of their list of priorities. Nevertheless, it is not nothing, and reaching its finals is significant enough to merit placement on the PR. Flash is not in the PL playoffs and thus has had no opportunity to show his skill there. But that's not a problem with Flash, who worked his ass off in proleague and won 54 games for his team. That's a problem with KT, whose lineup throughout the PL season was loaded with paper tigers like Luxury and ForGG and who only gained a second reliable player in Violet near the end of the season (i.e., too late). To put it bluntly, KT sucks. But that should have no bearing on a Power Rank (at least a consistent one) in which Bisu is rewarded for losing to a 2fac by staying at #3. Power Ranks are about the performance of individual players, and should have no place for any kind of reflected glory from team performance, be it great or god-awful.
Which brings me to the author of this PR, and to my objections to the method by which he orders it. JWD is an awesome guy. He is a passionate fan, but not a rabid one. He's got intelligence and good humor and he expresses his opinions clearly. But none of this can excuse the inconsistent manner by which he weights the achievements of progamers. He allows team success to influence player ranking. Canata drops out of the round of 8 of both OSL and MSL (kudos for getting there, of course) and rises two spots. That makes zero sense considering how hard Fantasy took him down and how his two wins against Jaedong leaned heavily upon an 8rax bunker rush/vulture/wraith/cc build that, while extremely powerful strategically, requires no special skills to execute. In fact, unless you count being a member of SKT1 as a special skill no other progamer can accomplish, Canata has no special skills whatsoever, and the five losses he suffered at the hands of Jaedong and Fantasy prove it beyond the shadow of a doubt. At best he deserved to drop two spots to 10 on this PR, but instead he rises two spots to 6. Even if JWD had absolutely had to place a T1 Terran at #6, he could have put iloveoov without anyone disputing it; without his strategic genius behind both Canata and Fantasy, they would both be mediocrities. Hell, even with oov writing scripts for him Canata is still mediocre. Aside from old-timers like Last Romantic who actually remember the long-gone days when he showed some promise, there are no true Canata fans. Just Jaedong-hating trolls who wanted to disguise their hatred as something positive.
Keeping Bisu at #3 can be justified and I don't think anyone can seriously argue with it. Bisu is a progamer with an illustrious history, a winner of four individual leagues; moreover he's shown no signs of succumbing to the malaise that's infected the other five dragons. Hence there's every reason to believe that his future performance will merit the #3 ranking that his performance in a rather barren month (a great win against Fantasy, a cheese win against Fantasy, and a loss to Iris) would otherwise belie. If Bisu's rank remains unchanged on these grounds, then the only explanation for Flash's (someone who is, if not more accomplished than Bisu, at least comparable to him) total exclusion from the PR is arbitrariness and favoritism (whether it's conscious or not doesn't matter).
But there's one problem here. It's not with the argument for keeping Bisu there. It's with how that argument flies in the face of the logic underpinning JWD's power ranks. Someone who once was willing to place Zero above Jaedong on the basis of a single month's performance is not someone who treats the Power Rank as an indicator of a player's past or future performance. It is someone who concentrates exclusively on performance in the month at hand, gives some brownie points for being a SKT player (hello thezerg), and expects things to sort themselves out.
This is unprecedented in the history of Power Ranks. Fakesteve's choices were often hilarious because they were capricious as hell. But he always, always gave weight to past performance and responsibly treated his PRs as predictors of future performance (hence why FS never put Lucifer on the PR in spite of the good month Lucifer had; FS knew that that was the only good month Lucifer was going to have). Despite losing 0-3 to Bisu, Savior was kept at the top of the PR for a extra month by djetterstyle in deference to the extent of his previous dominance. I know PR writers tend to stay at that position until they start missing deadlines by a month for three or four months straight, and I recognize and admire the excellence of JWD's OSL news reports. I know he's a wonderful writer. But given his consistent inability to think of each month's PR as a document of SC history, something fans new and old alike can look back on as an accurate record of who was strong in progaming over periods of time far longer than a month, I sincerely believe that he is not the right person to write the power rank.
edit: Okay, I'm being too harsh. JWD's method works fine for the first three months out of every four month season; if there are enough games played, then the cream rises to the top regardless of what emphasis is placed on what period of time (past/present month/future). But that fourth month is the most important month. the one in which champions are created and predictions for rising (and falling) stars are made, and requires a broader vision, the occasion of which I'm sure JWD can rise to. JWD should keep writing the Power Rank for as long as he wants. I just hope he'll avoid such clunkers like Calm 4, Canata 6, and that indefensible Flash CBNC in the future.
To the post above; You've written a lot, and said very little.
Then I read some of the comments from Flash fans. Not his fanboys, his fans. And they convinced me. Not with sentiments, but with facts. Leaving Flash off this power rank was absolutely wrong. He's out of the OSL and MSL, true enough. But he made the finals of GOM. GOM is a less prestigious tournament. It's missing players from several teams (including prominent ones like SKT and Hite), and the progamers who do enter the tournament place practicing for it at the bottom of their list of priorities. Nevertheless, it is not nothing, and reaching its finals is significant enough to merit placement on the PR. Flash is not in the PL playoffs and thus has had no opportunity to show his skill there. But that's not a problem with Flash, who worked his ass off in proleague and won 54 games for his team. That's a problem with KT, whose lineup throughout the PL season was loaded with paper tigers like Luxury and ForGG and who only gained a second reliable player in Violet near the end of the season (i.e., too late). To put it bluntly, KT sucks. But that should have no bearing on a Power Rank (at least a consistent one) in which Bisu is rewarded for losing to a 2fac by staying at #3. Power Ranks are about the performance of individual players, and should have no place for any kind of reflected glory from team performance, be it great or god-awful.
GOM is so off the radar it really shouldn't be counted towards ELO (in my humble opinion). It's not like it was a low priority for players, it wasn't a priority at all. EffOrt didn't practice at all, and thought it was mildly annoying that Iris did. The reason Iris is on the PR is because he's actually in another league and won some stuff in PL. Flash shouldn't be penalized directly for not playing in proleague, but he is rightfully penalized indirectly for not doing so. You can't just put Flash on the PR because if he was playing PL he would've won. That's almost what you're suggesting JWD do.
Which brings me to the author of this PR, and to my objections to the method by which he orders it. JWD is an awesome guy. He is a passionate fan, but not a rabid one. He's got intelligence and good humor and he expresses his opinions clearly. But none of this can excuse the inconsistent manner by which he weights the achievements of progamers. He allows team success to influence player ranking. Canata drops out of the round of 8 of both OSL and MSL (kudos for getting there, of course) and rises two spots. That makes zero sense considering how hard Fantasy took him down and how his two wins against Jaedong leaned heavily upon an 8rax bunker rush/vulture/wraith/cc build that, while extremely powerful strategically, requires no special skills to execute. In fact, unless you count being a member of SKT1 as a special skill no other progamer can accomplish, Canata has no special skills whatsoever, and the five losses he suffered at the hands of Jaedong and Fantasy prove it beyond the shadow of a doubt. At best he deserved to drop two spots to 10 on this PR, but instead he rises two spots to 6. Even if JWD had absolutely had to place a T1 Terran at #6, he could have put iloveoov without anyone disputing it; without his strategic genius behind both Canata and Fantasy, they would both be mediocrities. Hell, even with oov writing scripts for him Canata is still mediocre. Aside from old-timers like Last Romantic who actually remember the long-gone days when he showed some promise, there are no true Canata fans. Just Jaedong-hating trolls who wanted to disguise their hatred as something positive.
You really shortchange Canata here, not only did he "drop out" of both leagues in this month, but he also qualified for them - something Flash did not do. And I don't be stupid and suggest that beating Jaedong with whatever strategy doesn't require skill. Canata gave the #1 ranked player in the world a run for his money in a important tournament. Canata has quite a bit of special skill, more than (I would venture) you or I, or any player on this forum including IdrA and ret do. He's a A-Team Terran on the best team in PL, and that's coming from someone who doesn't even like him that much. But your attacks on Canata are totally unwarrented. And then you allege some sort of unholy conspiracy between "Jaedoning-hating trolls" and Canata (who according to you has no fans). Dude, that's absurd.
Keeping Bisu at #3 can be justified and I don't think anyone can seriously argue with it. Bisu is a progamer with an illustrious history, a winner of four individual leagues; moreover he's shown no signs of succumbing to the malaise that's infected the other five dragons. Hence there's every reason to believe that his future performance will merit the #3 ranking that his performance in a rather barren month (a great win against Fantasy, a cheese win against Fantasy, and a loss to Iris) would otherwise belie. If Bisu's rank remains unchanged on these grounds, then the only explanation for Flash's (someone who is, if not more accomplished than Bisu, at least comparable to him) total exclusion from the PR is arbitrariness, favoritism, incompetence.
If nobody can seriously disagree with it (they can, obviously) then why are you disagreeing? Bisu is on the power rank, not because of his history, or because he's on SKT1, but because the small amount of games he played this month has a significant part in scheduling, and in the games he did play, he looked very strong. He may not have played a million games, but the quality of his play was good and consistent enough to suggest that he is the #3 player in the world. You're missing the point. The reason Flash is not in the PR is because his lack of games played is very much his fault (out of both leagues, not even going to argue PL) and he has not played the quality of opponents in GOM that Bisu/Fantasy have played in their games. It's really simple. All wins are not equal.
But there's one problem here. It's not with the argument for keeping Bisu there. It's with how that argument flies in the face of the logic underpinning JWD's power ranks. Someone who once was willing to place Zero above Jaedong on the basis of a single month's performance is not someone who treats the Power Rank as an indicator of a player's past or future performance. It is someone who concentrates exclusively on performance in the month at hand, gives some brownie points for being a SKT player (hello thezerg), and expects things to sort themselves out.
To bring out the old ZerO>Jaedong bit is a bit unfair. I'm not even sure JWD would agree with that, but it's irrelevant. The last three PRs have been very well received. Since you're argument here is based on false readings of JWD's methods, and a misunderstanding of how Bisu played as opposed to Flash last month, there's really not much else to say.
Except:
This is unprecedented in the history of Power Ranks.
What is? Controversy? No, no it's not.
I'm not entirely sure what prompted this, it seems you're not a big Canata fan, but it's essentially a argument constructed of flimsy details upon a shaky foundation. JWD is doing a fine job.
The ranks, for the most part, have been fine. The most obtuse thing about JWD is his criteria seem up in the air. Sometimes he'll go the route of Fakesteve and award players an even higher rank for playing well, in spite of the overall results. Other times he'll pull an etterstyle and rank people on what seems mostly based on bias. Sometimes he lets players retain their spot sheerly through how hypothetically good they still are, and gives the established players leeway (Bisu this month, who's biggest game was notably losing to Iris), or he'll ignore that and go with pure, unadulterated results (Zero over Jaedong).
He has a point but he gets it across in a long winded fashion.
In light of the recent MSL games between Bisu and Iris, I must reiterate my claim that Bisu is not deserving of his rank in this list if he deserves to grace it at all. I guess that's why it is last month's PR. After T1 loses the PL finals, I hope you have the good sense to not include him at all.
You can't just put Flash on the PR because if he was playing PL he would've won. That's almost what you're suggesting JWD do.
Never said that, straw man argument, no need to reply. You're calling GOM absolutely worthless, I'm saying it's worth something. If it's worthless, why does Tadzio even bother writing his news reports?
But your attacks on Canata are totally unwarrented.
Canata has not shown any kind of "spark" as a progamer for quite some time. Even when his play is effective as it was in the MSL/OSL ro16, it's economy-based, uninspired and uninspiring. It's oov with a vasectomy. When I say special skills, I'm clearly not talking about them with regards to you or me or even Idra and ret, but with regards to the best progamers, the people that populate the power rank. Canata has a past reaching back four or five years, but it's one of disappointed hopes. Two months ago he was boring but produced results in two leagues, and so he deserved his PR ranking. Last month he lost in both leagues. Soon he'll be over the hill. I don't like him and I don't dislike him. I do dislike his rise in the most recent PR, which is unwarranted.
If nobody can seriously disagree with it (they can, obviously) then why are you disagreeing?
I'm not. I'm saying the reasons Bisu stays where he is should be applied to Flash, and that he should also be on the PR, and that the fact that Flash isn't on the PR is indicative of a general problem with the way these PRs are written.
The last three PRs have been very well received.
Yes, they have been well received, and there's nothing bad about them. When the number of games and contestants for the league titles drop to the size they are now, though, the weaknesses in JWD's method start to show. Calm is at #4 this month because he's beat Effort, and their ace match failures in PL supposedly even out. Nevertheless, I believe that a strong majority of TL would agree that Effort is not just the better player right now, but the one with the stronger foundation and the brighter future. By comparison, by.hero made the OSL semis last season while Steve was still writing and only reached #8 on the PR.
I'm not entirely sure what prompted this, it seems you're not a big Canata fan, but it's essentially a argument constructed of flimsy details upon a shaky foundation. JWD is doing a fine job.
There's been something off about JWD's power ranks (not so much the placements as the thinking behind them) since he started composing them. I'm sure I wasn't the only one who felt this way, or the only one who couldn't figure out exactly what was so bugging about them. It's only when the leagues reach this point that the flaws in his system could become so apparent that they could be named. JWD's power ranks will be accurate in the early and mid-season and misleading in the late season, because his method places far too much emphasis on the month at hand and too little emphasis on past record (long-term) and future potential. My argument takes a while to read. The style is legal, almost constipated; I apologize. But it isn't unclear; the details I cite are definite, and the pattern that they form is real. If you still can't understand what I'm saying, then the problem is with you, not me.
Gom isn't worthless, but with many of the best players not even participating in it and the players that are in it have other, more important responsibilities, winning it doesn't mean as much. Effort said himself that he didn't practice for Gom and was a bit mad that Iris did.
Your points about Canata make no sense, you must have missed most of his last few games, especially against Piano on Byzantium 3 and against Jaedong on Outsider, game 1
Flash is only in one league and the least important one at that. He didn't make it for a reason and his "wins" last month are very unimpressive. He lost to calm and kal right before the previous pl went up and he looked terrible. He lost to kwanro twice, bbsed Effort, beat thezerg (an sktt1 zerg lol) and 3-0ed july (who hasn't had proleague playtime in 2 months) in Gom, the only tournament he had to prepare for. He's not even in the OSL because of his poor performance and he didn't even qualify for proleague, although that was more of his team's fault.
The ranks are done every month, you don't need to use past performance or future expectations to place players (you can't say that someone will win definitively, how many people thought that Iris was going to win against Bisu? TLPD says 179 to the 1517 who voted for Bisu). Just because you have been a top 10 player doesn't mean you should be in the top 10 for power rank. It's about who did well in the last month and gives a nod in the direction of those who have been consistently good. If we wanted to see who has been consistently good for a long period of time, all you have to do is check the kespa rankings.
On August 05 2009 05:36 ghostWriter wrote: Gom isn't worthless, but with many of the best players not even participating in it and the players that are in it have other, more important responsibilities, winning it doesn't mean as much. For example,
Your points about Canata make no sense, you must have missed most of his last few games, especially against Piano on Byzantium 3 and against Jaedong on Outsider, game 1
Flash is only in one league and the least important one at that. He didn't make it for a reason and his "wins" last month are very unimpressive. He lost to calm and kal right before the previous pl went up and he looked terrible. He lost to kwanro twice, bbsed Effort, beat thezerg (an sktt1 zerg lol) and 3-0ed july (who hasn't had proleague playtime in 2 months) in Gom, the only tournament he had to prepare for. He's not even in the OSL because of his poor performance and he didn't even qualify for proleague, although that was more of his team's fault.
The ranks are done every month, you don't need to use past performance or future expectations to place players (you can't say that someone will win definitively, how many people thought that Iris was going to win against Bisu? TLPD says 179 to the 1517 who voted for Bisu). Just because you have been a top 10 player doesn't mean you should be in the top 10 for power rank. It's about who did well in the last month and gives a nod in the direction of those who have been consistently good. If we wanted to see who has been consistently good for a long period of time, all you have to do is check the kespa rankings.
Flash was ranked fifth last month, went 6-1, beating this month's #5 in the process, and losing to no one who's in the rank. Bisu got to keep his spot because it was a dry month, Flash didn't, go figure.
On August 05 2009 05:36 ghostWriter wrote: Gom isn't worthless, but with many of the best players not even participating in it and the players that are in it have other, more important responsibilities, winning it doesn't mean as much. For example,
Your points about Canata make no sense, you must have missed most of his last few games, especially against Piano on Byzantium 3 and against Jaedong on Outsider, game 1
Flash is only in one league and the least important one at that. He didn't make it for a reason and his "wins" last month are very unimpressive. He lost to calm and kal right before the previous pl went up and he looked terrible. He lost to kwanro twice, bbsed Effort, beat thezerg (an sktt1 zerg lol) and 3-0ed july (who hasn't had proleague playtime in 2 months) in Gom, the only tournament he had to prepare for. He's not even in the OSL because of his poor performance and he didn't even qualify for proleague, although that was more of his team's fault.
The ranks are done every month, you don't need to use past performance or future expectations to place players (you can't say that someone will win definitively, how many people thought that Iris was going to win against Bisu? TLPD says 179 to the 1517 who voted for Bisu). Just because you have been a top 10 player doesn't mean you should be in the top 10 for power rank. It's about who did well in the last month and gives a nod in the direction of those who have been consistently good. If we wanted to see who has been consistently good for a long period of time, all you have to do is check the kespa rankings.
Flash was ranked fifth last month, went 6-1, beating this month's #5 in the process, and losing to no one who's in the rank. Bisu got to keep his spot because it was a dry month, Flash didn't, go figure.
Why do people not read? 6-1? Try 8-5 for the last month and if you want to do it from the last power rank, its 6-2 and numbers don't mean anything if you actually saw the games: He lost to calm and kal right before the previous pl went up and he looked terrible. He lost to kwanro twice, bbsed Effort, beat thezerg (an sktt1 zerg lol) and 3-0ed july (who hasn't had proleague playtime in 2 months) in Gom, the only tournament he had to prepare for. He's not in the proleague playoffs.
Bisu beat fantasy twice (name any other player who can do that besides Jaedong and maybe Effort) and lost to Iris (2fact+great micro) and Zero (this was not his best moment and Zero used queens really well). But as JWD already said, the reason why Bisu and Fantasy played so few games is because his team is already in the grand finals (flash's team didn't even make the playoffs). Their lack of games is a testament to their skill, if they had to qualify for the grand finals, they probably would have most likely made it up there anyway.
Did you even see Flash's game against Yarnc (although this was at the end of June)? It was a travesty and not advancing in OSL because of a loss to Kwanro when Kwanro wasn't playing his best matchup and isn't even the best zerg on his team!
Flash went 6-2 in the time between the previous PR and the current one; all nine games were against Zerg. He made the finals of one individual league and had been eliminated from the other two. Bisu went 2-2, 2-1 against Terran and 0-1 against Zerg. He remained in the quarterfinals of one league at an 0-1 deficit. Bisu didn't have to play any PL games because his team had performed so well that they placed first in the PL regular season. Flash didn't have to play any PL games because his team had performed so terribly that they didn't make the PL playoffs. Flash was at 5 and dropped into purgatory. Bisu was at 3 and stayed there. Flash convincingly defeated one of the wiliest Zerg in the history of progaming, someone who, like him, had nothing but GOM to practice for. Bisu beat Fantasy straight up (brilliantly, one should add) in one game and cheesed him in another. In the next round of MSL he fell prey to an Iris 2fac that he knew was coming and still failed to overcome. In the OSL, Zero's forceful macro, combined with a genius queen ambush, took his destiny out of his own hands and put it into the pincers of go.go. Since Flash dropped from both leagues before the previous PR and JWD only judges on the basis of the month at hand, there's no explanation for dropping him out of the PR aside from a lapse in judgment or a double standard.
On August 05 2009 05:36 ghostWriter wrote: Gom isn't worthless, but with many of the best players not even participating in it and the players that are in it have other, more important responsibilities, winning it doesn't mean as much. For example,
Your points about Canata make no sense, you must have missed most of his last few games, especially against Piano on Byzantium 3 and against Jaedong on Outsider, game 1
Flash is only in one league and the least important one at that. He didn't make it for a reason and his "wins" last month are very unimpressive. He lost to calm and kal right before the previous pl went up and he looked terrible. He lost to kwanro twice, bbsed Effort, beat thezerg (an sktt1 zerg lol) and 3-0ed july (who hasn't had proleague playtime in 2 months) in Gom, the only tournament he had to prepare for. He's not even in the OSL because of his poor performance and he didn't even qualify for proleague, although that was more of his team's fault.
The ranks are done every month, you don't need to use past performance or future expectations to place players (you can't say that someone will win definitively, how many people thought that Iris was going to win against Bisu? TLPD says 179 to the 1517 who voted for Bisu). Just because you have been a top 10 player doesn't mean you should be in the top 10 for power rank. It's about who did well in the last month and gives a nod in the direction of those who have been consistently good. If we wanted to see who has been consistently good for a long period of time, all you have to do is check the kespa rankings.
Flash was ranked fifth last month, went 6-1, beating this month's #5 in the process, and losing to no one who's in the rank. Bisu got to keep his spot because it was a dry month, Flash didn't, go figure.
Why do people not read? 6-1? Try 8-5 for the last month and if you want to do it from the last power rank, its 6-2 and numbers don't mean anything if you actually saw the games: He lost to calm and kal right before the previous pl went up and he looked terrible. He lost to kwanro twice, bbsed Effort, beat thezerg (an sktt1 zerg lol) and 3-0ed july (who hasn't had proleague playtime in 2 months) in Gom, the only tournament he had to prepare for. He's not in the proleague playoffs.
Bisu beat fantasy twice (name any other player who can do that besides Jaedong and maybe Effort) and lost to Iris (2fact+great micro) and Zero (this was not his best moment and Zero used queens really well). But as JWD already said, the reason why Bisu and Fantasy played so few games is because his team is already in the grand finals (flash's team didn't even make the playoffs). Their lack of games is a testament to their skill, if they had to qualify for the grand finals, they probably would have most likely made it up there anyway.
Did you even see Flash's game against Yarnc (although this was at the end of June)? It was a travesty and not advancing in OSL because of a loss to Kwanro when Kwanro wasn't playing his best matchup and isn't even the best zerg on his team!
Yeah, sure he lost to Kal and Calm in a bad fashion. But you know, Flash was playing incredible amount of games that month. Just look at Jaedong. Roughly same time he lost in terrible fashion to Stork and Light (to Stork 2 days earlier and to Light 1 day after Flash losses). Totally justified given how busy schedule those two had and how many games they had to play.
The only game that I was disappointed with Flash was the game on the Outsider against Kwanro.. But hell, Kwanro played really well in that one, props to him.
I've seen all the games of Flash. The problem with his performance was that he had this new build and didn't have enough time to work-out all the timings. I saw mech into bio used by other players recently with great success. And add to that the fact that he played 3 best ZvTers in the world.. This pretty much sums up his OSL run.
I think people really downplay GOM too much. Sure, competition wasn't the strongest but somehow Jaedong, Effort, Calm and others on this rank who participated couldn't cut it. If it was so easy why they are not in the finals. Add to that the fact that Flash didn't get a single defeat and you get the picture. It is so easy to lose a single game here or there; these are progamers and they all want to win. However, Flash made it to the finals with a clean record.
On August 05 2009 06:49 EvoChamber wrote:Flash convincingly defeated one of the wiliest Zerg in the history of progaming, someone who, like him, had nothing but GOM to practice for.
Flash defeated JulyZerg, who is bad, and Flash looked bad doing it. He kicked over a lot of B-teamers in GOM without dropping a game; kudos, but that's hardly a colossal feat.
On August 05 2009 06:11 TwoToneTerran wrote: Flash was ranked fifth last month, went 6-1, beating this month's #5 in the process, and losing to no one who's in the rank. Bisu got to keep his spot because it was a dry month, Flash didn't, go figure.
Why do people not read? 6-1? Try 8-5 for the last month and if you want to do it from the last power rank, its 6-2 and numbers don't mean anything if you actually saw the games: He lost to calm and kal right before the previous pl went up and he looked terrible. He lost to kwanro twice, bbsed Effort, beat thezerg (an sktt1 zerg lol) and 3-0ed july (who hasn't had proleague playtime in 2 months) in Gom, the only tournament he had to prepare for. He's not in the proleague playoffs.
Flash went 6-2 since last PR. Bisu went 2-2 (the loss to Zero wasn't mentioned on last PR, so I'll count it in this period). Both players won some and lost some. Flash cheesed Effort, Bisu cheesed fantasy. Bisu had tougher competition and had a 50% winrate, Flash had easier competition and had a 75% winrate. This is how starcraft works. (Very fair of you to mention that GOM was the only tournament that Flash had to prepare for without mentioning that the same was true of July, btw.)
Bisu beat fantasy twice (name any other player who can do that besides Jaedong and maybe Effort) and lost to Iris (2fact+great micro) and Zero (this was not his best moment and Zero used queens really well).
Name a player who can beat fantasy... hmm... how about Flash? He's dismantled fantasy in every non-cheese TvT they've played. (This is meaningless because Flash and fantasy didn't actually play and I don't like to use imaginary games in my arguments --- but I don't like how you write off Flash. He has shown no reason for his TvT to be doubted, ever.)
But as JWD already said, the reason why Bisu and Fantasy played so few games is because his team is already in the grand finals (flash's team didn't even make the playoffs). Their lack of games is a testament to their skill, if they had to qualify for the grand finals, they probably would have most likely made it up there anyway.
Why should a team's performance affect individual placements in the PR? This isn't a team ranking. It shouldn't matter whether SKT are at the top or at rock bottom; all that matters is individual performance. Flash's team isn't in the playoffs because Flash's team is garbage.
Basically, in JWD's ranking, Bisu's and fantasy's absence from the playoffs is a mark in their favor, while Flash's absence is used as an excuse to leave him off. (Not directly --- but "Skyhigh won more PL playoff games than Flash played in July" is also true of Bisu and fantasy, and actually --- hey wait --- not true of Flash, who played 8 games and won six of them.) Bias much?
EDIT: Basically, JWD's claim about Skyhigh and Flash either shows that he wasn't paying attention when he made it, or that he literally counts out GOM entirely when he makes his ranking. How does that make sense?
On August 05 2009 06:49 EvoChamber wrote:Flash convincingly defeated one of the wiliest Zerg in the history of progaming, someone who, like him, had nothing but GOM to practice for.
Flash defeated JulyZerg, who is bad, and Flash looked bad doing it. He kicked over a lot of B-teamers in GOM without dropping a game; kudos, but that's hardly a colossal feat.
Even counting in the fact that Flash's opponents in GOM haven't been the crème de la crème, should his victories there somehow count against him?
On August 05 2009 06:49 EvoChamber wrote:Flash convincingly defeated one of the wiliest Zerg in the history of progaming, someone who, like him, had nothing but GOM to practice for.
Flash defeated JulyZerg, who is bad, and Flash looked bad doing it.
He looked a hell of a lot better than SkyHigh, who graces the current ranking and who lost to the same player in the same league. (And this was before the PL playoffs even started.)
A 67.3% overall, 6-2 last month and 72% winning rate this year for Flash is unacceptable. He'll need to bump it up to 100% (dropping any game in his weakest [and by weakest, I mean 63% win rate] matchup is unacceptable) and also magically make the rest of KT into good players so his team can advance in PL if he's going to squeak by with #9 or #10 PR in the future and hang with the likes of type-b.
I've also decided to not bother watching the GOM finals (or any GOM games in the future), since we all know that $40,000 and a trip to play at Blizzcon is something that NO progamer actually cares the tiniest bit about, and people who win in GOM (Flash, Iris) should actually have that count AGAINST them, rather than for them. Iris should have been practicing for PL, and Flash should have been playing no games at all so he could be judged on hypothetical power like our friend at #3, Bisu. It all makes sense to me now.
EvoChamber keeping the fight alive. Good stuff man.
And yeah seriously... for those saying "Flash only 3-0'ed July AND LOOKED BAD DOING IT" (wtf?), last time I checked, skyhigh LOST 2-1 to July in the same league. lol.
Honestly, it's not Flash's fault KT sucks ass and are not in the playoffs.
And for the guy who couldn't understand why Bisu would have more loses if he had more games, Bisu having more games implies his team being worse. If Bisu was on KT instead of Flash, and qualifying in as many leagues as Flash, you really think he would have done a better job taking KT to playoffs? Bisu is lucky he has another ace on his team (Fantasy) along with players that preform like BeSt and Canata. IN ADDITION, to a great coaching staff and team moral. His environment just gives him more chances to relax and preform well. KT's environment right now just seems awful -_-.
Regardless Flash still does extremely well and is a top 10 SC player.. seems like some people just don't understand that.
Not to mention we are about to watch for all intents and purposes Flash 3-1 the player that just beat Bisu 3-2.
On August 05 2009 08:08 Hinanawi wrote: A 67.3% overall, 6-2 last month and 72% winning rate this year for Flash is unacceptable. He'll need to bump it up to 100% (dropping any game in his weakest [and by weakest, I mean 63% win rate] matchup is unacceptable) and also magically make the rest of KT into good players so his team can advance in PL if he's going to squeak by with #9 or #10 PR in the future and hang with the likes of type-b.
I've also decided to not bother watching the GOM finals (or any GOM games in the future), since we all know that $40,000 and a trip to play at Blizzcon is something that NO progamer actually cares the tiniest bit about, and people who win in GOM (Flash, Iris) should actually have that count AGAINST them, rather than for them. Iris should have been practicing for PL, and Flash should have been playing no games at all so he could be judged on hypothetical power like our friend at #3, Bisu. It all makes sense to me now.
On August 05 2009 08:08 Hinanawi wrote: A 67.3% overall, 6-2 last month and 72% winning rate this year for Flash is unacceptable. He'll need to bump it up to 100% (dropping any game in his weakest [and by weakest, I mean 63% win rate] matchup is unacceptable) and also magically make the rest of KT into good players so his team can advance in PL if he's going to squeak by with #9 or #10 PR in the future and hang with the likes of type-b.
I've also decided to not bother watching the GOM finals (or any GOM games in the future), since we all know that $40,000 and a trip to play at Blizzcon is something that NO progamer actually cares the tiniest bit about, and people who win in GOM (Flash, Iris) should actually have that count AGAINST them, rather than for them. Iris should have been practicing for PL, and Flash should have been playing no games at all so he could be judged on hypothetical power like our friend at #3, Bisu. It all makes sense to me now.
Vasoline, no need to spoil in PR threads. It's understood that recent games will be talked about here.
Anyhow, while I kind of support the "You guys are idiots for thinking Flash did badly" committee, that last bit of your post, Vasoline, is two different match ups.
PvT is Bisu's weakest game and he put up a valiant series against an on fire Iris. On the other hand, TvT is Flash's best match up and even if he 3-1's Iris it's just not the same situation.
On August 05 2009 08:08 Hinanawi wrote: A 67.3% overall, 6-2 last month and 72% winning rate this year for Flash is unacceptable. He'll need to bump it up to 100% (dropping any game in his weakest [and by weakest, I mean 63% win rate] matchup is unacceptable) and also magically make the rest of KT into good players so his team can advance in PL if he's going to squeak by with #9 or #10 PR in the future and hang with the likes of type-b.
I've also decided to not bother watching the GOM finals (or any GOM games in the future), since we all know that $40,000 and a trip to play at Blizzcon is something that NO progamer actually cares the tiniest bit about, and people who win in GOM (Flash, Iris) should actually have that count AGAINST them, rather than for them. Iris should have been practicing for PL, and Flash should have been playing no games at all so he could be judged on hypothetical power like our friend at #3, Bisu. It all makes sense to me now.
Au contraire, TwoTone. Bisu's PvZ is far and away the best PvZ among Protoss, but right now it's his worst matchup of the three. His straight-up PvT is practically unbeatable so long as he keeps his patience; likewise with his PvP. The subtle metagame shift (both mental and tactical) that's taken place in PvZ since Yellow won on Heartbreak has put all Protoss in a bad spot, and even Bisu is no exception.
On August 05 2009 06:49 EvoChamber wrote:Flash convincingly defeated one of the wiliest Zerg in the history of progaming, someone who, like him, had nothing but GOM to practice for.
Flash defeated JulyZerg, who is bad, and Flash looked bad doing it.
He looked a hell of a lot better than SkyHigh, who graces the current ranking and who lost to the same player in the same league. (And this was before the PL playoffs even started.)
SkyHigh was busy 2-0ing Leta and soundly defeating Hiya, Lomo, Fantasy and Great while flash made his run this month
On August 05 2009 08:28 EvoChamber wrote: Au contraire, TwoTone. Bisu's PvZ is far and away the best PvZ among Protoss, but right now it's his worst matchup of the three. His straight-up PvT is practically unbeatable so long as he keeps his patience; likewise with his PvP. The subtle metagame shift (both mental and tactical) that's taken place in PvZ since Yellow won on Heartbreak has put all Protoss in a bad spot, and even Bisu is no exception.
Well, we shouldn't count the fianl of GOM as sth that Flash has already won.
Maybe PvT is Bisu's weakest match-up but it is not weak by any measure. He looked really good in it for good few months. And why should we discount that loss purely on that fact while all the important losses of Flash this season are also in his weakest match-up. Iris is hot, and looks good in all match-ups. If Flash wins the final he should get all the credit he deserves.
It just really seems JWD puts way too much emphasis on last month performance. And as mentioned by EvoChamber he is more lenient towards some players than the others. In a month like this when so few games are played and some players can't play as much as the others because of their teams one shouldn't put so much weight on only recent games.
On August 05 2009 06:49 EvoChamber wrote:Flash convincingly defeated one of the wiliest Zerg in the history of progaming, someone who, like him, had nothing but GOM to practice for.
Flash defeated JulyZerg, who is bad, and Flash looked bad doing it.
He looked a hell of a lot better than SkyHigh, who graces the current ranking and who lost to the same player in the same league. (And this was before the PL playoffs even started.)
SkyHigh was busy 2-0ing Leta and soundly defeating Hiya, Lomo, Fantasy and Great while flash made his run this month
And losing to Stork.
Also Flash didn't play much because his team sucks! Compare Skyhigh's individual achievements in proleague and Flash. If Skyhigh performed as well as Flash than it would be CJ waiting for OZ in the final.
Bisu doesn't play many games and he gets the benefit of doubt. Flash doesn't play that many games and he is dropped out of PR.
And where is skyhigh in the individual leagues. I haven't seen him around...
PL's only important when Flash isn't involved, duh. (this is a joke post, I am joking, I understand the difference between a year of build up to the finals and standard PL)
On August 05 2009 08:17 TwoToneTerran wrote: Vasoline, no need to spoil in PR threads. It's understood that recent games will be talked about here.
Anyhow, while I kind of support the "You guys are idiots for thinking Flash did badly" committee, that last bit of your post, Vasoline, is two different match ups.
PvT is Bisu's weakest game and he put up a valiant series against an on fire Iris. On the other hand, TvT is Flash's best match up and even if he 3-1's Iris it's just not the same situation.
I guess that's true TwoTone. It's just that I figure if Flash won 3-1 or 3-0 (before this Bisu series) people would have just been "omg yeah against Iris! No shit. Too bad Effort didn't advance and then we would have had a real finals." Because some people just don't want to give Flash cred. It's not so much about the matchup, it's about the determination we're seeing in Iris. Clearly he isn't a player who is going to just roll over and lose. The games he beat Bisu in were long macro games, (minus game 1).. and it shows that he's not a washed up player by any means.
On some level I'm actually kind of afraid Iris can take Flash 3-2.. but then I remember, it's Flash TvT.. and in my mind Flash is the best Terran.. in a best of 5. And I don't see it happening.
Anyways, I guess none of that really matters. I just feel like dropping Flash from the list was a little bit foolish, sort of showed some bias for teams that do well over teams that dont, and sells short Flash's talent for the chance to be a little controversial with the rank. In the end, it's JWD's rank, I'm just throwing in my 2 cents.
You can't just put Flash on the PR because if he was playing PL he would've won. That's almost what you're suggesting JWD do.
Never said that, straw man argument, no need to reply. You're calling GOM absolutely worthless, I'm saying it's worth something. If it's worthless, why does Tadzio even bother writing his news reports?
I'll straw-man argument you! Tadzio writes the news reports because GOM is an entertaining tournament to follow not because he thinks it's in any way a good indicator of player strength. If players don't practice for GOM, why should we factor it into the PR at all?
But your attacks on Canata are totally unwarrented.
Canata has not shown any kind of "spark" as a progamer for quite some time. Even when his play is effective as it was in the MSL/OSL ro16, it's economy-based, uninspired and uninspiring. It's oov with a vasectomy. When I say special skills, I'm clearly not talking about them with regards to you or me or even Idra and ret, but with regards to the best progamers, the people that populate the power rank. Canata has a past reaching back four or five years, but it's one of disappointed hopes. Two months ago he was boring but produced results in two leagues, and so he deserved his PR ranking. Last month he lost in both leagues. Soon he'll be over the hill. I don't like him and I don't dislike him. I do dislike his rise in the most recent PR, which is unwarranted.
Is it not possible for Canata to be better now than at any point in his career?
If nobody can seriously disagree with it (they can, obviously) then why are you disagreeing?
I'm not. I'm saying the reasons Bisu stays where he is should be applied to Flash, and that he should also be on the PR, and that the fact that Flash isn't on the PR is indicative of a general problem with the way these PRs are written.
They were applied to Flash - Bisu advanced in his starleague, and Flash dropped out of his. Bisu advanced against a tremendous player, while Flash lost to a supposably inferior one.
Yes, they have been well received, and there's nothing bad about them. When the number of games and contestants for the league titles drop to the size they are now, though, the weaknesses in JWD's method start to show. Calm is at #4 this month because he's beat Effort, and their ace match failures in PL supposedly even out. Nevertheless, I believe that a strong majority of TL would agree that Effort is not just the better player right now, but the one with the stronger foundation and the brighter future. By comparison, by.hero made the OSL semis last season while Steve was still writing and only reached #8 on the PR.
Ok, but EffOrt had a big losing streak towards the end of the month, and lost to Calm directly. Who cares if EffOrt is the better player, on August 2nd, 2009, Calm was playing better. Nobody is saying that Calm is better than EffOrt. But JWD is saying that Calm is playing better than EffOrt at this point in time.
I'm not entirely sure what prompted this, it seems you're not a big Canata fan, but it's essentially a argument constructed of flimsy details upon a shaky foundation. JWD is doing a fine job.
There's been something off about JWD's power ranks (1) (not so much the placements as the (2) thinking behind them) since he started composing them. I'm sure I wasn't the only one who felt this way, or the only one who couldn't figure out exactly what was so bugging about them. It's only when the (3) leagues reach this point that the flaws in his system could become so apparent that they could be named. JWD's power ranks will be accurate in the early and mid-season and (4) misleading in the late season, because his method places far too much emphasis on the month at hand and too little emphasis on past record (long-term) and future potential. My argument takes a while to read. (5) The style is legal, almost constipated; I apologize. But it isn't unclear; the (6) details I cite are definite, and the pattern that they form is real. If you still can't understand what I'm saying, then the problem is with you, not me.
Here's what I don't understand: 1) You clearly have a problem with the placements, yet you say they're not a problem. 2) Can't the reason for one player's position possibly be different than the reason for another player's position? 3) Why does it matter when the leagues reach this point? Because less games are played, so JWD's impression of the importance of certain results over other results becomes apparent? 4) Misleading? What's so misleading? Is there a fear that somehow a new TL member might accidentally think that Calm > EffOrt? We're not dealing with facts, we're dealing with learned opinions based upon facts. 5) You're a good writer, I'm not arguing your grammar. I'm arguing the content of your argument. 6) Details like; "Even if JWD had absolutely had to place a T1 Terran at #6, he could have put iloveoov without anyone disputing it; without his strategic genius behind both Canata and Fantasy, they would both be mediocrities." are concrete?
*** Look; there obviously isn't a formula for these things. It's after the collection of all the facts, and a healthy period of educated analysis, that the PR writer comes up with his list. Obviously different writers use different approaches. But the PR is a list of who is playing the best starcraft right now, and since it's monthly, the most recent and accurate results have come from the last month. You can't fault JWD for choosing weighting these results more heavily than previous ranks. It's simply a methodology.
The way I see it, you either need to show how two players in identical situations were treated differently, or you need to accept that your priorities in the PR do not mesh with the current writer. Hell, I don't think anybody does 100%. But to allege any number of biases, is simply to miss the point- different players earn their places on the PR for different reasons. Sometimes it's because they played well, even if they lost (see: JangBi two months ago, and Leta in this month's CNBC), sometimes it's because they played well recently (see EffOrt when he was #1, and Violet, and Calm) Sometimes it's because they advanced in starleagues (see: Canata). Sometimes, (and here's the kicker) it's for multiple reasons. The nature of the PR is to compare apples and oranges, and there's nothing we can do about it, except debate and discuss. But really, we all simply have to deal with it.
The way I see it, you either need to (a) show how two players in identical situations were treated differently, or you need to (b) accept that your priorities in the PR do not mesh with the current writer.
a. See the last 20-odd posts about the respective fates of Flash and Bisu relative to their performance in the past month. There's a very humorous post by hinanawi that sums it up well if you can't or don't want to read it all.
b. I have. But to keep Bisu at 3 for going 2-2, raise Canata two spots for going 2-5, and drop Flash six spots for going 6-2 is just flat-out wrong. Not merely subjectively, but objectively and holistically. You can justify any of those decisions on their own, but those justifications nullify each other. All that's left are untenable biases and unconscious caprice.
On August 05 2009 08:46 tree.hugger wrote: Look; there obviously isn't a formula for these things.
Actually, I think there is a formula. It is as follows: 1) Keep some of the top players at the top to establish legitimacy (Bisu, Jaedong, Fantasy). 2) Introduce some newcomers to generate hype (Calm, TheZerg (lul...)). 3) Boost a player much, much higher than he should be spark debate (Canata, Zero). 4) To perfect the formula, drop a top player off entirely to get the fanboys flaming.
Honestly, I'm fine with the first 3. I would rather have some newcomers every month rather than see the same 10 guys in mildly differing permutations. I like the debate in PR threads, since they have a higher fan/fanboy ratio than usual. But I find #4 completely unacceptable.
On August 05 2009 06:49 EvoChamber wrote:Flash convincingly defeated one of the wiliest Zerg in the history of progaming, someone who, like him, had nothing but GOM to practice for.
Flash defeated JulyZerg, who is bad, and Flash looked bad doing it. He kicked over a lot of B-teamers in GOM without dropping a game; kudos, but that's hardly a colossal feat.
You did not see the same game as everyone else did. July would have stomped every other terran in the ground the way he played. Flash played very well to come back and defeat him. He deserves better than being behind Skyhigh. Oh and Iris is a class better than canata.
It's No-Respect-For-Flash syndrome. Whenever Jaedong comes back from the clutches of defeat against another zerg, it's because Jaedong's awesome. Bisu makes a comeback? He's awesome!
Flash makes a comeback that puts JD/Bisu's comebacks to shame? Obviously the other player threw the game. FBH? Threw the game! July? Threw the game! Shuttle? Threw the game! Man everyone just loves throwing their games against Flash.
People don't want to give credit to Flash because, even when he does well, they expect more. They expect him to be so good that he should always be ahead in a match, instead of staging a comeback. Even when he rolls someone, people delude themselves into saying "wow what a turtle just builds up an army and moves out," etc. Flash is like the tiny, 17 year old korean version of Rodney Dangerfield here.
On August 05 2009 06:49 EvoChamber wrote:Flash convincingly defeated one of the wiliest Zerg in the history of progaming, someone who, like him, had nothing but GOM to practice for.
Flash defeated JulyZerg, who is bad, and Flash looked bad doing it. He kicked over a lot of B-teamers in GOM without dropping a game; kudos, but that's hardly a colossal feat.
You did not see the same game as everyone else did. July would have stomped every other terran in the ground the way he played. Flash played very well to come back and defeat him. He deserves better than being behind Skyhigh. Oh and Iris is a class better than canata.
LOL no. Flash played like ass, JulyZerg kicked his knees out form under him, and then stood around looking stupid for ten minutes until Flash bit his privates off.
On August 05 2009 06:49 EvoChamber wrote:Flash convincingly defeated one of the wiliest Zerg in the history of progaming, someone who, like him, had nothing but GOM to practice for.
Flash defeated JulyZerg, who is bad, and Flash looked bad doing it. He kicked over a lot of B-teamers in GOM without dropping a game; kudos, but that's hardly a colossal feat.
You did not see the same game as everyone else did. July would have stomped every other terran in the ground the way he played. Flash played very well to come back and defeat him. He deserves better than being behind Skyhigh. Oh and Iris is a class better than canata.
LOL no. Flash played like ass, JulyZerg kicked his knees out form under him, and then stood around looking stupid for ten minutes until Flash bit his privates off.
I should just superimpose Flash's face on a picture of the late Mr. Dangerfield at this point.
On August 05 2009 06:49 EvoChamber wrote:Flash convincingly defeated one of the wiliest Zerg in the history of progaming, someone who, like him, had nothing but GOM to practice for.
Flash defeated JulyZerg, who is bad, and Flash looked bad doing it. He kicked over a lot of B-teamers in GOM without dropping a game; kudos, but that's hardly a colossal feat.
You did not see the same game as everyone else did. July would have stomped every other terran in the ground the way he played. Flash played very well to come back and defeat him. He deserves better than being behind Skyhigh. Oh and Iris is a class better than canata.
LOL no. Flash played like ass, JulyZerg kicked his knees out form under him, and then stood around looking stupid for ten minutes until Flash bit his privates off.
Go and watch again the games. Especially the one on the Heartbreak Ridge. I was amazed by Flash control of his MnM army. There was a moment that his main army was surrounded by 3 dark swarms and balancing between these he was repelling attack after attack.
Also his use of vessels was amazing. I remember when people where saying that he lost lost of vessels but as usually they forgot to mention that Flash was trading his vessels for defilers and it was the winning move.
Seriously, that was a great series. If I could complain about July's play I would mention his 3rd game. But I think even Flash said that July became really impatient after the first 2 games and didn't follow his strategy till the end... I hate when people look at a particular game of a BoX series without keeping in mind a whole picture. People at TL really like to forget that the game is as much about skill as about having strong mind.
On August 05 2009 06:49 EvoChamber wrote:Flash convincingly defeated one of the wiliest Zerg in the history of progaming, someone who, like him, had nothing but GOM to practice for.
Flash defeated JulyZerg, who is bad, and Flash looked bad doing it.
He looked a hell of a lot better than SkyHigh, who graces the current ranking and who lost to the same player in the same league. (And this was before the PL playoffs even started.)
SkyHigh was busy 2-0ing Leta and soundly defeating Hiya, Lomo, Fantasy and Great while flash made his run this month
And losing to Stork.
Also Flash didn't play much because his team sucks! Compare Skyhigh's individual achievements in proleague and Flash. If Skyhigh performed as well as Flash than it would be CJ waiting for OZ in the final.
Bisu doesn't play many games and he gets the benefit of doubt. Flash doesn't play that many games and he is dropped out of PR.
And where is skyhigh in the individual leagues. I haven't seen him around...
lol, sKyHigh is not the ace of his team, who know what would have happened with him if he was chosen to ace for CJ? That's like talking of how Flash would have so more wins if KT qualified for playoffs, they didn't.
sKyHigh has been defeating good players and lost 1 game to stork, who is good at PvT, in a map with a backwards ramp, with late siege.
Stork builds countered sKyHigh's completely. The same way EffOrt lost by going 12 hatch. Bad decision? yeah maybe, just like how Flash goes 14cc and dies without even fighting.
But you don't see us writing huge rants about Flash being in the power ranks in the last months when Flash lost to that stupid shit.
I mean I can't even believe you are complaining of a 9-1 record.
When I read this part "Thus it's no surprise that in his post-1set interview Bisu confessed "I lost to [Fantasy] a lot in practice" and named Fantasy "greatest amongst Terrans".
I looked at the power rank and was like...Holy shit where the fuck is Flash?
Then on the other hand Leta failed pretty hard this month as well
Skyhigh totally deserves to be on the PR. His wins against Leta, great, Lomo, and Hiya were decisive and crucial to CJ's advancement through PL playoffs. Stork sniped him, big deal, it happens. Effort hogged the CJ spotlight this month, but Skyhigh was just as solid, maybe even more so. If anyone's going to complain about his placement, they should complain he's ranked much too low.
On August 05 2009 08:08 Hinanawi wrote: A 67.3% overall, 6-2 last month and 72% winning rate this year for Flash is unacceptable. He'll need to bump it up to 100% (dropping any game in his weakest [and by weakest, I mean 63% win rate] matchup is unacceptable) and also magically make the rest of KT into good players so his team can advance in PL if he's going to squeak by with #9 or #10 PR in the future and hang with the likes of type-b.
I've also decided to not bother watching the GOM finals (or any GOM games in the future), since we all know that $40,000 and a trip to play at Blizzcon is something that NO progamer actually cares the tiniest bit about, and people who win in GOM (Flash, Iris) should actually have that count AGAINST them, rather than for them. Iris should have been practicing for PL, and Flash should have been playing no games at all so he could be judged on hypothetical power like our friend at #3, Bisu. It all makes sense to me now.
Honestly at this point I don't care - sorry Flash went 72.5% in his last 40 games and made GOM finals and lost to some very good players. It's too bad he had two of the best TvZ comebacks of 2009 and arguably the best TvT comeback ever recently too.
Last time I checked, the three players that knocked Flash out of OSL/MSL, Jaedong, Yarnc, and Kwanro, were all semifinalists in those leagues but whatever, guess that doesn't matter either
There's no point in making this argument anymore. Flash needs to win GOM, and he needs to step up his game in 3 months for the next set of Starleagues. There's nothing left to it now - it's just the way it is.
Correction: MSL semi-finals you mean. Granted he is the favorite against Kwanro and may advance to the Finals, but you never know. OSL, MSL, and GOM all had some major upsets this season.
On August 05 2009 06:49 EvoChamber wrote:Flash convincingly defeated one of the wiliest Zerg in the history of progaming, someone who, like him, had nothing but GOM to practice for.
Flash defeated JulyZerg, who is bad, and Flash looked bad doing it. He kicked over a lot of B-teamers in GOM without dropping a game; kudos, but that's hardly a colossal feat.
You did not see the same game as everyone else did. July would have stomped every other terran in the ground the way he played. Flash played very well to come back and defeat him. He deserves better than being behind Skyhigh. Oh and Iris is a class better than canata.
LOL no. Flash played like ass, JulyZerg kicked his knees out form under him, and then stood around looking stupid for ten minutes until Flash bit his privates off.
Go and watch again the games. Especially the one on the Heartbreak Ridge. I was amazed by Flash control of his MnM army. There was a moment that his main army was surrounded by 3 dark swarms and balancing between these he was repelling attack after attack.
Also his use of vessels was amazing. I remember when people where saying that he lost lost of vessels but as usually they forgot to mention that Flash was trading his vessels for defilers and it was the winning move.
Seriously, that was a great series. If I could complain about July's play I would mention his 3rd game. But I think even Flash said that July became really impatient after the first 2 games and didn't follow his strategy till the end... I hate when people look at a particular game of a BoX series without keeping in mind a whole picture. People at TL really like to forget that the game is as much about skill as about having strong mind.
Hi, I watched the games. In the Heartbreak Ridge game July was up 133 to 100 supply at one point. How do you get it got there? Because Flash played bad. July's control was always sloppy. In fact, after he was at a 30 supply lead and plagued a huge portion of Flash's army, all he needed to do was a-move everything and he'd have won the game. Instead he screws around with defilers, lets Flash turtle, and ends up losing.
NO TOP ZERG would have lost that game after being in that point, and if you watched the games, they can play the early/early mid game even better than JulyZerg(even Jaedong). And if Flash finds himself behind in every single game against JulyZerg(who entirely threw every game), who's notoriously bad at ZvT, how do you think he'd do against, say, Jaedong? Yeah, indeed.
Though I feel very sad that Flash is out of the PR, I know deep inside Flash has the ability to beat every player on the current PR. He's just turning into a Kal... Goddamnit.
On August 05 2009 23:55 dekuschrub wrote: yeah flash only beat july because july apparently seems to have no idea what to do late game LOL
seriously how do you lose with like 5 gas? watch july do it on heartbreak haha
July is used to winning with muta micro... or when playing against Z or P
Anyway, TBH, even though Flash has obviously been playing poorly (TvZ, what. -_-), many of the lower PR rankers this time around don't deserve to be on the PR either... like type-b - they seem to be on PR for meeting their (much lower) expectations, then performing very well in one or two sets. Besides, Flash dropping out of starleagues was because of two bad sets against Zergs.
It has been said that comebacks are only possible in Starcraft if the player with an advantage makes a mistake. While I don't think that's a universal statement, it describes most comebacks perfectly. It also describes July's late-game play.
If someone doesn't make a mistake then they don't lose a game, though. I've always thought that was a dumb way to think of comebacks. How many people criticize Jaedong's ZvZ comebacks because his opponents don't play as good as he does, even if they get ahead? Or more recently when Iris came back to defeat Bisu? This should not detract from how well Jaedong, Iris, or Flash all played to get that comeback and that it only seems to apply detrimentally to Flash is an annoying double standard.
Your argument is if someone has an advantage and doesn't make a mistake, then they will win. Well gosh, what a great argument. Have fun showing me any example of any game ever where someone didn't make a mistake to win, that didn't end in five minutes or less(some bunker rushes are executed perfectly but defended poorly, so I'll give you those if you want). Hint: It doesn't happen, and will never happen. The point is comebacks happen, and most of the time, people acknowledge the winner who made the comeback as the guy who pulled through, as opposed to the loser "throwing" the game away.
Jeadong is the most obvious example, as half his ZvZs he goes down at a disadvantage, but pulls out a win (obviously because his opponents didn't play perfectly), and almost everytime it concludes with people congratulating Jaedong for an amazing come back.
A more recent example was Iris vs Bisu's fifth match, which, of course, Bisu made some mistakes, but does that somehow make Iris bad for capitalizing on it and playing well to take the game back?
Then we have Flash, who ends up making more comebacks than you can imagine because he is the best player at winning from a disadvantageous position. I'm not sure if you saw FBH vs Flash, but while FBH blundered later on in the game, Flash played out of this world to win that game. He did every possible thing you could imagine to strip that win from FBH and even called it his own best achievement.
What do we get? Half the forum saying FBH got paid off to throw the game. Seriously. Not that flash played like an absolute beast from the first second he lost his tank line, but that FBH intentionally lost the game.
Flash does the same thing against Shuttle, and still everyone criticizes shuttle. Only a few people point out how amazingly Flash played to come back from that position.
And then the Outsider game vs July, which I'm not even sure was as big a comeback/blunder from July as people make it out to be. People like to point out that July had, what, 7 gas? But if you bothered to pay attention (I just watched the game an hour ago), July spent the entire second half of the game at very low minerals and 1000+ gas. As the game went up the disparity in his resources increased -- the dude was making 20 scourge just because of his gas excess and no minerals to back it up. The double gas expos are nice to get fast tech, but when you toss away thousands of minerals in Drones, Extractors, and Hatcheries to set up those expos and only have 2 and a half bases worth of minerals the whole game, your economy isn't that much better than a solid 2 base + mineral expo terran who knows how to macro.
Everytime Flash makes a comeback, people say "Any player better than that would've beaten Flash in that situation." And that might be true -- but that's not the end of it. The point to Flash's credit is that any other terran in the situations he was in would've lost. No one, not even Fantasy, has showcased the gameplay Flash shows when he makes those comebacks. Those games don't just point out Shuttle's/FBH's/July's/Leta's faults, it shows just what Flash is capable of. That people hold Flash's wins against his talent is lame.
None of this is even arguing that Flash deserves to be on the PR -- it's all in response to people who think Flash is washed up and terrible. He's played out of his mind plenty, lately. And he's had some crushing losses, but by no means is Flash definitively someone's second fiddle. He might not be in playoffs, but he was still the best proleague player (with possible exception to Bisu). He might not be as far in the OSL as Fantay, but he had a tougher group and lost tough games literally by seconds. Disappointingly lost to Kwanro, but I think he's done plenty to show he still understands how to play TvZ (He lost the series because he failed a bunker rush. His fault, of course, but it didn't show any particular lack of skill from him). Flash isn't second fiddle to anyone. Still the best TvT, and arguably (and kind of embarassingly for terrans) still the best at TvZ just through virtue of his ability to control both mech AND bio. Fantasy is definitely better at TvP.
When people want to call Flash second fiddle to Fantasy, it's like they don't realize that Flash is better in one match up, Fantasy is better in one match up, and it fluctuates on who's better at TvZ (frankly I wouldn't consider Fantasy much of a favorite over Kwanro, either. It's hard to mech against someone so aggressive). Flash is still very much in the running for best Terran, he just gets tougher draws for him, personally, in leagues than Fantasy (Both group stages were protoss + someone he was the favorite to, Flash had the worst OSL group and, like Fantasy, 2-0'd his MSL group, but got put in his weak match (vs aggressive zerg), where Fantasy got...eliminated by a tougher opponent, but in his stronger match up (vp against Bisu), welp).
Unless Bisu does a miraculous super ace match vs Jaedong in the PL finals, he deserves to drop several ranks. If there's anyone who's staying in the PR on old merits rather than recent performance, it's Bisu. To begin with, his drop from the OSL was a far bigger fail than Flash's drop from the same (Bisu had much weaker opponents), and for that reason he shouldn't have been as high as #3 even last month -- let alone keeping such a position this month. Effort would've been better at #3 this time -- despite a few crucial losses just before the PR release, his early month performance was insane.
Bisu deserves a big drop now because his performances haven't been good. Especially vs Iris. Bisu got a slight lead in most of the games through cheese and then lost through a combination of poor macro and inefficient tactics. In the matches (1 & 3) where he didn't cheese to get the early advantage, Iris just outplayed him from start to finish. And before the Bisu fanboys jump in: I was hoping Bisu for win. I was hoping for him to take Iris down in usual style with a combination of humiliating cheese and late-game macro steamroll. I like Bisu when he does that, and would've loved to see him more than anyone else in a starleague final against Jaedong. But right now Bisu is delivering even worse letdowns than Flash.
In fact, there are some parallels to Bisu's vT against Iris and July's vT against Flash, both having ineffective mid/late game tactics that allowed their opponents to recover from a disadvantage. This comparison shouldn't be taken to far, though -- on the whole, Bisu did play better than July (and that's why he went 2-3 rather than 0-3). Bisu suffered from Iris very effective harassment while July's problems seemed more self-inflicted (but then, Flash has this way of somehow passively making his opponents play worse -- or at least make it look that way). I don't buy the argument that Flash's win against July doesn't count -- even with July's mistakes, Flash put up a solid performance. I don't particularly mind Flash's vacation from the PR, though -- there is no shortage of other players doing well right now.
Anyway, there's no question that Iris is on fire. If he puts up a good fight against Flash (I don't expect him to win, but who knows), he should be top three contender for next month. And that's without even considering his chances in the MSL.
On August 06 2009 03:10 TwoToneTerran wrote: Your argument is if someone has an advantage and doesn't make a mistake, then they will win. Well gosh, what a great argument. Have fun showing me any example of any game ever where someone didn't make a mistake to win, that didn't end in five minutes or less(some bunker rushes are executed perfectly but defended poorly, so I'll give you those if you want). Hint: It doesn't happen, and will never happen. The point is comebacks happen, and most of the time, people acknowledge the winner who made the comeback as the guy who pulled through, as opposed to the loser "throwing" the game away.
Jeadong is the most obvious example, as half his ZvZs he goes down at a disadvantage, but pulls out a win (obviously because his opponents didn't play perfectly), and almost everytime it concludes with people congratulating Jaedong for an amazing come back.
A more recent example was Iris vs Bisu's fifth match, which, of course, Bisu made some mistakes, but does that somehow make Iris bad for capitalizing on it and playing well to take the game back?
Then we have Flash, who ends up making more comebacks than you can imagine because he is the best player at winning from a disadvantageous position. I'm not sure if you saw FBH vs Flash, but while FBH blundered later on in the game, Flash played out of this world to win that game. He did every possible thing you could imagine to strip that win from FBH and even called it his own best achievement.
What do we get? Half the forum saying FBH got paid off to throw the game. Seriously. Not that flash played like an absolute beast from the first second he lost his tank line, but that FBH intentionally lost the game.
Flash does the same thing against Shuttle, and still everyone criticizes shuttle. Only a few people point out how amazingly Flash played to come back from that position.
And then the Outsider game vs July, which I'm not even sure was as big a comeback/blunder from July as people make it out to be. People like to point out that July had, what, 7 gas? But if you bothered to pay attention (I just watched the game an hour ago), July spent the entire second half of the game at very low minerals and 1000+ gas. As the game went up the disparity in his resources increased -- the dude was making 20 scourge just because of his gas excess and no minerals to back it up. The double gas expos are nice to get fast tech, but when you toss away thousands of minerals in Drones, Extractors, and Hatcheries to set up those expos and only have 2 and a half bases worth of minerals the whole game, your economy isn't that much better than a solid 2 base + mineral expo terran who knows how to macro.
Everytime Flash makes a comeback, people say "Any player better than that would've beaten Flash in that situation." And that might be true -- but that's not the end of it. The point to Flash's credit is that any other terran in the situations he was in would've lost. No one, not even Fantasy, has showcased the gameplay Flash shows when he makes those comebacks. Those games don't just point out Shuttle's/FBH's/July's/Leta's faults, it shows just what Flash is capable of. That people hold Flash's wins against his talent is lame.
None of this is even arguing that Flash deserves to be on the PR -- it's all in response to people who think Flash is washed up and terrible. He's played out of his mind plenty, lately. And he's had some crushing losses, but by no means is Flash definitively someone's second fiddle. He might not be in playoffs, but he was still the best proleague player (with possible exception to Bisu). He might not be as far in the OSL as Fantay, but he had a tougher group and lost tough games literally by seconds. Disappointingly lost to Kwanro, but I think he's done plenty to show he still understands how to play TvZ (He lost the series because he failed a bunker rush. His fault, of course, but it didn't show any particular lack of skill from him). Flash isn't second fiddle to anyone. Still the best TvT, and arguably (and kind of embarassingly for terrans) still the best at TvZ just through virtue of his ability to control both mech AND bio. Fantasy is definitely better at TvP.
When people want to call Flash second fiddle to Fantasy, it's like they don't realize that Flash is better in one match up, Fantasy is better in one match up, and it fluctuates on who's better at TvZ (frankly I wouldn't consider Fantasy much of a favorite over Kwanro, either. It's hard to mech against someone so aggressive). Flash is still very much in the running for best Terran, he just gets tougher draws for him, personally, in leagues than Fantasy (Both group stages were protoss + someone he was the favorite to, Flash had the worst OSL group and, like Fantasy, 2-0'd his MSL group, but got put in his weak match (vs aggressive zerg), where Fantasy got...eliminated by a tougher opponent, but in his stronger match up (vp against Bisu), welp).
When you start a post with "your argument was" when the previous post presented no argument, it is a strawman. The only example I'll give you of the saying I've heard is the JD v Bisu Bo5 in GOM. One-sided rapes both ways.
Sorry to have wasted your time with that wall of Flash text. You are Flash's biggest fan in my eyes. You also have a very short temper.
On August 06 2009 03:10 TwoToneTerran wrote: Your argument is if someone has an advantage and doesn't make a mistake, then they will win. Well gosh, what a great argument. Have fun showing me any example of any game ever where someone didn't make a mistake to win, that didn't end in five minutes or less(some bunker rushes are executed perfectly but defended poorly, so I'll give you those if you want). Hint: It doesn't happen, and will never happen. The point is comebacks happen, and most of the time, people acknowledge the winner who made the comeback as the guy who pulled through, as opposed to the loser "throwing" the game away.
Jeadong is the most obvious example, as half his ZvZs he goes down at a disadvantage, but pulls out a win (obviously because his opponents didn't play perfectly), and almost everytime it concludes with people congratulating Jaedong for an amazing come back.
A more recent example was Iris vs Bisu's fifth match, which, of course, Bisu made some mistakes, but does that somehow make Iris bad for capitalizing on it and playing well to take the game back?
Then we have Flash, who ends up making more comebacks than you can imagine because he is the best player at winning from a disadvantageous position. I'm not sure if you saw FBH vs Flash, but while FBH blundered later on in the game, Flash played out of this world to win that game. He did every possible thing you could imagine to strip that win from FBH and even called it his own best achievement.
What do we get? Half the forum saying FBH got paid off to throw the game. Seriously. Not that flash played like an absolute beast from the first second he lost his tank line, but that FBH intentionally lost the game.
Flash does the same thing against Shuttle, and still everyone criticizes shuttle. Only a few people point out how amazingly Flash played to come back from that position.
And then the Outsider game vs July, which I'm not even sure was as big a comeback/blunder from July as people make it out to be. People like to point out that July had, what, 7 gas? But if you bothered to pay attention (I just watched the game an hour ago), July spent the entire second half of the game at very low minerals and 1000+ gas. As the game went up the disparity in his resources increased -- the dude was making 20 scourge just because of his gas excess and no minerals to back it up. The double gas expos are nice to get fast tech, but when you toss away thousands of minerals in Drones, Extractors, and Hatcheries to set up those expos and only have 2 and a half bases worth of minerals the whole game, your economy isn't that much better than a solid 2 base + mineral expo terran who knows how to macro.
Everytime Flash makes a comeback, people say "Any player better than that would've beaten Flash in that situation." And that might be true -- but that's not the end of it. The point to Flash's credit is that any other terran in the situations he was in would've lost. No one, not even Fantasy, has showcased the gameplay Flash shows when he makes those comebacks. Those games don't just point out Shuttle's/FBH's/July's/Leta's faults, it shows just what Flash is capable of. That people hold Flash's wins against his talent is lame.
None of this is even arguing that Flash deserves to be on the PR -- it's all in response to people who think Flash is washed up and terrible. He's played out of his mind plenty, lately. And he's had some crushing losses, but by no means is Flash definitively someone's second fiddle. He might not be in playoffs, but he was still the best proleague player (with possible exception to Bisu). He might not be as far in the OSL as Fantay, but he had a tougher group and lost tough games literally by seconds. Disappointingly lost to Kwanro, but I think he's done plenty to show he still understands how to play TvZ (He lost the series because he failed a bunker rush. His fault, of course, but it didn't show any particular lack of skill from him). Flash isn't second fiddle to anyone. Still the best TvT, and arguably (and kind of embarassingly for terrans) still the best at TvZ just through virtue of his ability to control both mech AND bio. Fantasy is definitely better at TvP.
When people want to call Flash second fiddle to Fantasy, it's like they don't realize that Flash is better in one match up, Fantasy is better in one match up, and it fluctuates on who's better at TvZ (frankly I wouldn't consider Fantasy much of a favorite over Kwanro, either. It's hard to mech against someone so aggressive). Flash is still very much in the running for best Terran, he just gets tougher draws for him, personally, in leagues than Fantasy (Both group stages were protoss + someone he was the favorite to, Flash had the worst OSL group and, like Fantasy, 2-0'd his MSL group, but got put in his weak match (vs aggressive zerg), where Fantasy got...eliminated by a tougher opponent, but in his stronger match up (vp against Bisu), welp).
When you start a post with "your argument was" when the previous post presented no argument, it is a strawman. The only example I'll give you of the saying I've heard is the JD v Bisu Bo5 in GOM. One-sided rapes both ways.
Sorry to have wasted your time with that wall of Flash text. You are Flash's biggest fan in my eyes. You also have a very short temper.
I'm...not mad? Indignant, maybe, but not mad.
Also you did have an argument, in the post before the "I'm allergic to strawmen" one. Which is weird because it was less of a strawman argument and more of an analogy to make a point.
On the other hand, I'm totally a huge Flash fan but that's never stopped me from admitting his faults, or even maligned my opinion about who the best players are. Back during Bacchus 1 and GSI, Flash was the best player around, but since then it's either been Bisu or Jaedong (Mostly Jaedong) who's the best player, maybe with a little exception to Stork.
(1)It has been said that comebacks are only possible in Starcraft if the player with an advantage makes a mistake. While I don't think that's a universal statement, it describes most comebacks perfectly. It also describes July's late-game play.
(2)Your argument is if someone has an advantage and doesn't make a mistake, then they will win. Well gosh, what a great argument.
When you start a post with "your argument was" when the previous post presented no argument, it is a strawman.
(Bolded numbers mine.)
?
Perhaps argument wasn't the best word, perhaps "adage", "truism", "premise", "hypothesis" come to mind, but he was indeed dispelling the notion of that as a coherent idea, and if you did not want yourself associate with it, why did you post that?
Moreover the premise seems to be an underlying thread in at least some of the posts here. Just because someone didn't advance a particular argument phrased as such does not necessarily imply that invoking it counts as a "straw man". (1) is equivalent to (2), so the entirety of the first quote would be equivalent to (2) with the proviso that it generally, but not always, describes most situations.
The way I see it, you either need to (a) show how two players in identical situations were treated differently, or you need to (b) accept that your priorities in the PR do not mesh with the current writer.
a. See the last 20-odd posts about the respective fates of Flash and Bisu relative to their performance in the past month. There's a very humorous post by hinanawi that sums it up well if you can't or don't want to read it all.
b. I have. But to keep Bisu at 3 for going 2-2, raise Canata two spots for going 2-5, and drop Flash six spots for going 6-2 is just flat-out wrong. Not merely subjectively, but objectively and holistically. You can justify any of those decisions on their own, but those justifications nullify each other. All that's left are untenable biases and unconscious caprice.
Obviously because you haven't watched any of the games apparently. There's more to games than the results. A lesser player can win some games, gosi[flying] is 4-0 this month. Where do you think that should put him in next month's power rank? You have to see where the games were played and who the opponents were. Just quoting numbers isn't going to convince anyone except for a few Flash fans, who are already on your side. Jaedong carried OZ into 2nd place in the proleague playoffs, while Flash choked and didn't make the postseason. Sorry. Everyone set up their priorities so that Gom was last. It might have nice prizes, but it doesn't even come close to the prestige of the Proleague, OSL or even MSL. Effort said that he didn't even practice for it and was jokingly mad that Iris did. There's nothing more important than proleague right now and Flash beating a July who hasn't been in any other leagues since losing to Effort in Bacchus in May isn't really an astounding achievement. Stop saying 6-2 like it's some magical formula into the power rank, especially since he only played one matchup.
Bisu's absence from leagues is not his fault; it's the scheduling with the grand finals and msl happening after the powerrank was up. Flash's absence from leagues was from him doing relatively poorly for a person who is supposed to be the representative Terran.
The way I see it, you either need to (a) show how two players in identical situations were treated differently, or you need to (b) accept that your priorities in the PR do not mesh with the current writer.
a. See the last 20-odd posts about the respective fates of Flash and Bisu relative to their performance in the past month. There's a very humorous post by hinanawi that sums it up well if you can't or don't want to read it all.
b. I have. But to keep Bisu at 3 for going 2-2, raise Canata two spots for going 2-5, and drop Flash six spots for going 6-2 is just flat-out wrong. Not merely subjectively, but objectively and holistically. You can justify any of those decisions on their own, but those justifications nullify each other. All that's left are untenable biases and unconscious caprice.
Bisu's absence from leagues is not his fault; it's the scheduling with the grand finals and msl happening after the powerrank was up. Flash's absence from leagues was from him doing relatively poorly for a person who is supposed to be the representative Terran.
Sorry, but even as a Bisu fan thats just a crappy excuse. Flash has ALWAYS had a jam packed schedule, more often than not he has more games to play than Bisu on any given month. When he does bad, some people make excuses, but most of us can admit he just played bad. Bisu may have been busy, but that doesn't mean its not his fault for playing stupidly aggressive throughout the whole series.
The way I see it, you either need to (a) show how two players in identical situations were treated differently, or you need to (b) accept that your priorities in the PR do not mesh with the current writer.
a. See the last 20-odd posts about the respective fates of Flash and Bisu relative to their performance in the past month. There's a very humorous post by hinanawi that sums it up well if you can't or don't want to read it all.
b. I have. But to keep Bisu at 3 for going 2-2, raise Canata two spots for going 2-5, and drop Flash six spots for going 6-2 is just flat-out wrong. Not merely subjectively, but objectively and holistically. You can justify any of those decisions on their own, but those justifications nullify each other. All that's left are untenable biases and unconscious caprice.
Obviously because you haven't watched any of the games apparently. There's more to games than the results. A lesser player can win some games, gosi[flying] is 4-0 this month. Where do you think that should put him in next month's power rank? You have to see where the games were played and who the opponents were. Just quoting numbers isn't going to convince anyone except for a few Flash fans, who are already on your side. Jaedong carried OZ into 2nd place in the proleague playoffs, while Flash choked and didn't make the postseason. Sorry. Everyone set up their priorities so that Gom was last. It might have nice prizes, but it doesn't even come close to the prestige of the Proleague, OSL or even MSL. Effort said that he didn't even practice for it and was jokingly mad that Iris did. There's nothing more important than proleague right now and Flash beating a July who hasn't been in any other leagues since losing to Effort in Bacchus in May isn't really an astounding achievement. Stop saying 6-2 like it's some magical formula into the power rank, especially since he only played one matchup.
Bisu's absence from leagues is not his fault; it's the scheduling with the grand finals and msl happening after the powerrank was up. Flash's absence from leagues was from him doing relatively poorly for a person who is supposed to be the representative Terran.
Dude, quit trying to use Flash's team as an argument against him. The reason KT failed to make the playoffs wasn't Flash. It's KT. In rounds 1, 2, and 4 of SPL the team went 14-19 with Flash firing on all cylinders. In Winners' League Flash was abused and earned his team a 7-4 record while flopping out of OSL. In one night, he all-killed Estro and lost to Best in OSL 2 hours later. In SPL R5 KT goes 8-3 (and could have gone 9-2 if the coaches hadn't sent out ForGG for the ace match against Leta) because Violet developed into a reliable second player. Yeah, Flash died twice against STX. But somehow those two losses prove that he's failed his team when the reason KT was forced into a do-or-die situation to make the playoffs was the horrid record from R1, R2, and R4, when Flash was the only thing KT had. Holding KT's absence from the playoffs against Flash of all people? He won 54 games! Blame KT management. Blame KT coaches. Blame Luxury and ForGG. Hell, even blame the mascot. Anyone, really, but Flash, who burned up his chances in the OSL and MSL for three seasons all for the sake of his team's playoff chances and got nothing for all his efforts.
Flash has been around long enough for us to know what kind of player he is. Preparation is everything for him. He's a theorist who needs plenty of time to examine the map and the opponent thoroughly before he enters the game. The hectic and random pace of Proleague is thus a particularly terrible situation in which to strand him with little to no backup, and the stress clearly wore down his ability to prepare fully for MSL and OSL. Flash isn't Jaedong, whose natural talent, honed by who knows how many thousands of ZvZs, is to think on his feet, to adapt with little or no preparation time for whatever may come. He is not Bisu, who has excellent coaches and reliable teammates and who can play SPL in the arrogance, certainty, and comfort that comes from knowing that a whole lot of people have got your back. Until R5, Flash was just......out there. Forced to perform, day in and day out, night in and night out. I've heard the spirit of Michael Jackson still walks the earth. He carries a ruler with his mouse and keyboard, and wears a bright red uniform on which the words FINGER BOOM are prominently emblazoned. The tragic aspect of Flash isn't that he loses games. It's that he wins so many that KT, a team renowned for killing geese who lay golden eggs, thought that everything was fine and dandy with sending him out nonstop with no one to cover him. It's that the development of his tremendous potential is being retarded for the sake of a team that either doesn't give a shit about him or doesn't know how to.
So stop arguing against Flash, and start pointing the finger at.....Finger Boom.
On August 06 2009 01:12 Nylan wrote: It has been said that comebacks are only possible in Starcraft if the player with an advantage makes a mistake. While I don't think that's a universal statement, it describes most comebacks perfectly. It also describes July's late-game play.
Every comeback in everything is duo to the mistake of your opponent ..... This are pointless arguments . Iris should have been above Canata . 3 - 0ing Effort , demolishing Hwasin being 1 - 0 against Bisu and decent performance in PL should have earned that spot .
The way I see it, you either need to (a) show how two players in identical situations were treated differently, or you need to (b) accept that your priorities in the PR do not mesh with the current writer.
a. See the last 20-odd posts about the respective fates of Flash and Bisu relative to their performance in the past month. There's a very humorous post by hinanawi that sums it up well if you can't or don't want to read it all.
b. I have. But to keep Bisu at 3 for going 2-2, raise Canata two spots for going 2-5, and drop Flash six spots for going 6-2 is just flat-out wrong. Not merely subjectively, but objectively and holistically. You can justify any of those decisions on their own, but those justifications nullify each other. All that's left are untenable biases and unconscious caprice.
Bisu's absence from leagues is not his fault; it's the scheduling with the grand finals and msl happening after the powerrank was up. Flash's absence from leagues was from him doing relatively poorly for a person who is supposed to be the representative Terran.
Sorry, but even as a Bisu fan thats just a crappy excuse. Flash has ALWAYS had a jam packed schedule, more often than not he has more games to play than Bisu on any given month. When he does bad, some people make excuses, but most of us can admit he just played bad. Bisu may have been busy, but that doesn't mean its not his fault for playing stupidly aggressive throughout the whole series.
The wording in ghostWriter's post is a little unclear, but I don't think he was trying to say Bisu's MSL loss was because of 'scheduling'. What he was saying is that Bisu's absence from leagues in the period that this PR covers was because of the scheduling of the PL grand finals (which was organised so that Bisu's team didn't play at all), and because his MSL series was after the PR was written. These two factors combined to make Bisu's record of games played for his PR very small, even though he was still in two of the three major leagues.
The way I see it, you either need to (a) show how two players in identical situations were treated differently, or you need to (b) accept that your priorities in the PR do not mesh with the current writer.
a. See the last 20-odd posts about the respective fates of Flash and Bisu relative to their performance in the past month. There's a very humorous post by hinanawi that sums it up well if you can't or don't want to read it all.
b. I have. But to keep Bisu at 3 for going 2-2, raise Canata two spots for going 2-5, and drop Flash six spots for going 6-2 is just flat-out wrong. Not merely subjectively, but objectively and holistically. You can justify any of those decisions on their own, but those justifications nullify each other. All that's left are untenable biases and unconscious caprice.
Obviously because you haven't watched any of the games apparently. There's more to games than the results. A lesser player can win some games, gosi[flying] is 4-0 this month. Where do you think that should put him in next month's power rank? You have to see where the games were played and who the opponents were. Just quoting numbers isn't going to convince anyone except for a few Flash fans, who are already on your side. Jaedong carried OZ into 2nd place in the proleague playoffs, while Flash choked and didn't make the postseason. Sorry. Everyone set up their priorities so that Gom was last. It might have nice prizes, but it doesn't even come close to the prestige of the Proleague, OSL or even MSL. Effort said that he didn't even practice for it and was jokingly mad that Iris did. There's nothing more important than proleague right now and Flash beating a July who hasn't been in any other leagues since losing to Effort in Bacchus in May isn't really an astounding achievement. Stop saying 6-2 like it's some magical formula into the power rank, especially since he only played one matchup.
Bisu's absence from leagues is not his fault; it's the scheduling with the grand finals and msl happening after the powerrank was up. Flash's absence from leagues was from him doing relatively poorly for a person who is supposed to be the representative Terran.
Dude, quit trying to use Flash's team as an argument against him. The reason KT failed to make the playoffs wasn't Flash. It's KT. In rounds 1, 2, and 4 of SPL the team went 14-19 with Flash firing on all cylinders. In Winners' League Flash was abused and earned his team a 7-4 record while flopping out of OSL. In one night, he all-killed Estro and lost to Best in OSL 2 hours later. In SPL R5 KT goes 8-3 (and could have gone 9-2 if the coaches hadn't sent out ForGG for the ace match against Leta) because Violet developed into a reliable second player. Yeah, Flash died twice against STX. But somehow those two losses prove that he's failed his team when the reason KT was forced into a do-or-die situation to make the playoffs was the horrid record from R1, R2, and R4, when Flash was the only thing KT had. Holding KT's absence from the playoffs against Flash of all people? He won 54 games! Blame KT management. Blame KT coaches. Blame Luxury and ForGG. Hell, even blame the mascot. Anyone, really, but Flash, who burned up his chances in the OSL and MSL for three seasons all for the sake of his team's playoff chances and got nothing for all his efforts.
Flash has been around long enough for us to know what kind of player he is. Preparation is everything for him. He's a theorist who needs plenty of time to examine the map and the opponent thoroughly before he enters the game. The hectic and random pace of Proleague is thus a particularly terrible situation in which to strand him with little to no backup, and the stress clearly wore down his ability to prepare fully for MSL and OSL. Flash isn't Jaedong, whose natural talent, honed by who knows how many thousands of ZvZs, is to think on his feet, to adapt with little or no preparation time for whatever may come. He is not Bisu, who has excellent coaches and reliable teammates and who can play SPL in the arrogance, certainty, and comfort that comes from knowing that a whole lot of people have got your back. Until R5, Flash was just......out there. Forced to perform, day in and day out, night in and night out. I've heard the spirit of Michael Jackson still walks the earth. He carries a ruler with his mouse and keyboard, and wears a bright red uniform on which the words FINGER BOOM are prominently emblazoned. The tragic aspect of Flash isn't that he loses games. It's that he wins so many that KT, a team renowned for killing geese who lay golden eggs, thought that everything was fine and dandy with sending him out nonstop with no one to cover him. It's that the development of his tremendous potential is being retarded for the sake of a team that either doesn't give a shit about him or doesn't know how to.
So stop arguing against Flash, and start pointing the finger at.....Finger Boom.
(1)It has been said that comebacks are only possible in Starcraft if the player with an advantage makes a mistake. While I don't think that's a universal statement, it describes most comebacks perfectly. It also describes July's late-game play.
When you start a post with "your argument was" when the previous post presented no argument, it is a strawman.
(Bolded numbers mine.)
?
Perhaps argument wasn't the best word, perhaps "adage", "truism", "premise", "hypothesis" come to mind, but he was indeed dispelling the notion of that as a coherent idea, and if you did not want yourself associate with it, why did you post that?
I believe my post made it perfectly clear that I thought it applied in this case and made sense in others, but was not a law of gameplay, nor was it a phrase I coined myself. Another way of phrasing the "saying" i mentioned would be "Most comebacks happen because a player throws away their advantage". Given that I did not feel the phrase was true in all cases, my stance would be "many" rather than "most", which leaves plenty of wiggle room.
His flaw, more than developing a saying that I likened to the situation into a full-blown argument tied in to other accusations against Flash, was changing it into an absolute. That's something I'm not endorsing in the slightest.
Moreover the premise seems to be an underlying thread in at least some of the posts here. Just because someone didn't advance a particular argument phrased as such does not necessarily imply that invoking it counts as a "straw man". (1) is equivalent to (2), so the entirety of the first quote would be equivalent to (2) with the proviso that it generally, but not always, describes most situations.
Invoking an argument that has not been advanced is part of the definition of a straw man.
EDIT: A thought just occurred to me...a lot of arguments in PR threads seem to revolve around what I would call "kinetic" ability versus "potential" ability. It's kinda stating the obvious, but I thought it was interesting to think about it in these terms. How much weight should each type of "ability" be given in any particular PR?
ggq, you are right and to evochamber, I am not trying to use flash's team against him. His absence from proleague is just an example of why he doesn't deserve to be in the power rank and a minor one at that. He isn't in the MSL, yes, it was the group of death and they were all top level zergs, but he still flunked out of the round of 16, a pretty poor showing for someone who should be in the top 3. There's no excuse for losing to kwanro in the round of 16 of the OSL. The only leg that people promoting flash have to stand on is his Gom performance but he's beaten reach, hoejja, shuttle and july to get there. Not losing any games is impressive, but he's only beaten people he should have won against anyway. The mark of a top player is beating other top players, not winning series that you shouldn't drop anyway. You people say Flash 6-2, Flash 6-2 like it's the chorus of a song or something. Half of those wins are from Julyzerg, who isn't even 6th best on his own team. No offense to July, he's a great player and a real veteran; however, if your team is in a bo7 in the postseason and your team sends out 3 zergs (calm, hero, modesty(wtf?!?)) and none of them is you, you must be doing something wrong.
ggq, you are right and to evochamber, I am not trying to use flash's team against him. His absence from proleague is just an example of why he doesn't deserve to be in the power rank and a minor one at that.
No, it's not, for the very same reason Bisu doesn't deserve extra points because he's automatically in the finals and didn't play any games. They're non-factors.
Also, you mixed up OSL and MSL.
I thought July specifically asked not to play in proleague so he could practice for GOM?
On August 06 2009 05:47 ghostWriter wrote: I am not trying to use flash's team against him. His absence from proleague is just an example of why he doesn't deserve to be in the power rank and a minor one at that.
No, his absence from proleague is *not* an example of why he doesn't deserve to be in the power rank.
Nobody on this power rank could have brought KT into the playoffs. Nobody. Not Jaedong, not Bisu, not fantasy, and definitely not Yarnc, Calm, Skyhigh, Effort, Iris, Canata or type-b (lol).
Flash did infinitely better in this year's PL than 8 out of 10 people on this rank (and no worse than the remaining two). The fact that his team failed to make the playoffs does not reflect on Flash in the slightest. KT didn't make the playoffs because KT is terrible. If you think his absence from playoffs is a mark against him (even a "minor" one), then yes, you are using Flash's team against him.
(1)It has been said that comebacks are only possible in Starcraft if the player with an advantage makes a mistake. While I don't think that's a universal statement, it describes most comebacks perfectly. It also describes July's late-game play.
(2)Your argument is if someone has an advantage and doesn't make a mistake, then they will win. Well gosh, what a great argument.
When you start a post with "your argument was" when the previous post presented no argument, it is a strawman.
(Bolded numbers mine.)
?
Perhaps argument wasn't the best word, perhaps "adage", "truism", "premise", "hypothesis" come to mind, but he was indeed dispelling the notion of that as a coherent idea, and if you did not want yourself associate with it, why did you post that?
I believe my post made it perfectly clear that I thought it applied in this case and made sense in others, but was not a law of gameplay, nor was it a phrase I coined myself. Another way of phrasing the "saying" i mentioned would be "Most comebacks happen because a player throws away their advantage". Given that I did not feel the phrase was true in all cases, my stance would be "many" rather than "most", which leaves plenty of wiggle room.
His flaw, more than developing a saying that I likened to the situation into a full-blown argument tied in to other accusations against Flash, was changing it into an absolute. That's something I'm not endorsing in the slightest.
Moreover the premise seems to be an underlying thread in at least some of the posts here. Just because someone didn't advance a particular argument phrased as such does not necessarily imply that invoking it counts as a "straw man". (1) is equivalent to (2), so the entirety of the first quote would be equivalent to (2) with the proviso that it generally, but not always, describes most situations.
Invoking an argument that has not been advanced is part of the definition of a straw man.
EDIT: A thought just occurred to me...a lot of arguments in PR threads seem to revolve around what I would call "kinetic" ability versus "potential" ability. It's kinda stating the obvious, but I thought it was interesting to think about it in these terms. How much weight should each type of "ability" be given in any particular PR?
I said an argument not advanced phrased as such, that is, an identical one with different phrasing. I had hoped the context would make it clear. Sorry for the ponderous construction on my part.
But as you said, its only a part of the definition of a straw man, and not a necessary or sufficient condition at that.
The way I see it, you either need to (a) show how two players in identical situations were treated differently, or you need to (b) accept that your priorities in the PR do not mesh with the current writer.
a. See the last 20-odd posts about the respective fates of Flash and Bisu relative to their performance in the past month. There's a very humorous post by hinanawi that sums it up well if you can't or don't want to read it all.
b. I have. But to keep Bisu at 3 for going 2-2, raise Canata two spots for going 2-5, and drop Flash six spots for going 6-2 is just flat-out wrong. Not merely subjectively, but objectively and holistically. You can justify any of those decisions on their own, but those justifications nullify each other. All that's left are untenable biases and unconscious caprice.
Bisu's absence from leagues is not his fault; it's the scheduling with the grand finals and msl happening after the powerrank was up. Flash's absence from leagues was from him doing relatively poorly for a person who is supposed to be the representative Terran.
Sorry, but even as a Bisu fan thats just a crappy excuse. Flash has ALWAYS had a jam packed schedule, more often than not he has more games to play than Bisu on any given month. When he does bad, some people make excuses, but most of us can admit he just played bad. Bisu may have been busy, but that doesn't mean its not his fault for playing stupidly aggressive throughout the whole series.
The wording in ghostWriter's post is a little unclear, but I don't think he was trying to say Bisu's MSL loss was because of 'scheduling'. What he was saying is that Bisu's absence from leagues in the period that this PR covers was because of the scheduling of the PL grand finals (which was organised so that Bisu's team didn't play at all), and because his MSL series was after the PR was written. These two factors combined to make Bisu's record of games played for his PR very small, even though he was still in two of the three major leagues.
Ah, I see. Sorry for the misunderstanding then, ghostwriter.
Edit: Flash not being on the PR I think is one of the constant issues with the ranking system. Do you rank people based on who you think are the top ten, or do you rank people based on who actually showed the best game play? I don't think anyone here thinks type-b is even close to the top ten best players in sc, and I doubt anyone thinks flash isnt in the top ten. Unfortunately his play this month hasn't lived up to his own standards, just as Leta's hasnt. So yeah it becomes a contentious issue, results vs theoretical abilities, and each argument has won in the past [for example midas didnt move from the 4th spot despite playing no games long ago]. In this case though, I think that Flash dropping to the cbnc or at least the tenth spot is fair, and im also a flash fan. But really, you guys can argue incessantly, but your never going to convince the other who's right. Time will prove it.
ggq, you are right and to evochamber, I am not trying to use flash's team against him. His absence from proleague is just an example of why he doesn't deserve to be in the power rank and a minor one at that.
No, it's not, for the very same reason Bisu doesn't deserve extra points because he's automatically in the finals and didn't play any games. They're non-factors.
Also, you mixed up OSL and MSL.
I thought July specifically asked not to play in proleague so he could practice for GOM?
Woops, that's embarrassing. I even looked it up to make sure my memory was right and it was, but I mistyped it. It's just a one letter difference =/
On August 06 2009 05:47 ghostWriter wrote: I am not trying to use flash's team against him. His absence from proleague is just an example of why he doesn't deserve to be in the power rank and a minor one at that.
No, his absence from proleague is *not* an example of why he doesn't deserve to be in the power rank.
Nobody on this power rank could have brought KT into the playoffs. Nobody. Not Jaedong, not Bisu, not fantasy, and definitely not Yarnc, Calm, Skyhigh, Effort, Iris, Canata or type-b (lol).
Flash did infinitely better in this year's PL than 8 out of 10 people on this rank (and no worse than the remaining two). The fact that his team failed to make the playoffs does not reflect on Flash in the slightest. KT didn't make the playoffs because KT is terrible. If you think his absence from playoffs is a mark against him (even a "minor" one), then yes, you are using Flash's team against him.
Although Violet finally blossomed but kinda choked, KT had a chance to make the playoffs. Although cj was 31 wins/24 losses +22, samsung khan was 30 wins/25 losses+3 while KT was 29 wins/26 losses +1. If flash didn't choke at the end, he would have had the most wins AND be in the postseason. He choked when it counted the most (as did OZ, but they only fell out of the #1 spot, while KT fell out of the postseason altogether). Any anyway, doing well over a year is not what this power rank is about, that's kespa rankings.
On August 06 2009 06:25 Dazed_Spy wrote: I don't think anyone here thinks type-b is even close to the top ten best players in sc, and I doubt anyone thinks flash isnt in the top ten. Unfortunately his play this month hasn't lived up to his own standards, just as Leta's hasnt.
This is it right here. Who wasn't surprised that type-b made it into the round of 4, knocking out pure and best, advancing with fantasy over Backho and Stork and beating Leta 2-1? Type-b probably isn't even among the top 30 players, but to go so far with few people, if any, rooting for him or expecting that he would go anywhere is damn near miraculous. Flash on the other hand, was relatively awful (for him). The best players are held to a higher standard because they have performed in the past and are expected to keep performing in the future. This isn't an absolute scale, power ranks are given on a bit of a curve. There's no doubt that Flash is better than most of the players on the rank and is unarguably the best TvT player out there, but his recent play just doesn't allow for him to be on the rank.
On August 06 2009 07:21 ghostWriter wrote: Although Violet finally blossomed but kinda choked, KT had a chance to make the playoffs. Although cj was 31 wins/24 losses +22, samsung khan was 30 wins/25 losses+3 while KT was 29 wins/26 losses +1. If flash didn't choke at the end, he would have had the most wins AND be in the postseason. He choked when it counted the most (as did OZ, but they only fell out of the #1 spot, while KT fell out of the postseason altogether). Any anyway, doing well over a year is not what this power rank is about, that's kespa rankings.
Are you saying the fact that his team missed PL playoffs is a mark against him, or aren't you? The games against STX that he lost shouldn't be a mark against him since they didn't take place in the last monthly period. If you're suggesting we take those into account then why shouldn't we take into account the fact that KT would've been lower than eSTRO without him? Blaming him for the fact that KT missed the playoffs is just ridiculous, especially when you say things like
On August 06 2009 03:40 ghostWriter wrote: Jaedong carried OZ into 2nd place in the proleague playoffs
Oz's record slipped hard in the last two rounds where you could argue that Jaedong "carried" them. His carrying was enough to keep them in second place after holding first for most of the season, that's it. Don't act like he got them there alone while Flash somehow screwed his team over by only tying for the most proleague wins.
His team not being present in the playoffs is not a strike against him. It just means he doesn't have those games to count for him, or against him (see: Leta).
Ugh I keep trying to leave this thread but keep getting dragged back in!
Did you know that at the time of this PR's posting:
- Flash went 1-2 in OSL in the group of death and failed to advance to the round of 8 - Bisu went 1-2 in OSL in a group of noobs (ok not really but it was undeniably a weaker group) and failed to advance to the round of 8
- Flash went 1-2 in MSL round of 16, losing to a player who we now know is in the MSL semis - Bisu went 2-0 in MSL round of 16 (against a teammate, Fantasy) and was 0-1 in MSL round of 8, we now know he lost 2-3 to a player who therefore is in the MSL semis
Obviously Flash's slightly less bad OSL failure is more than offset by Bisu's superior MSL performance (especially since Bisu hadn't lost yet when the rank was released). Of course Bisu should be above Flash in the power rank, and I've already said I don't think Flash deserves to be on it this month. But yeah, the gap really wasn't gigantic, I just think people are holding Flash's past Starleague failures against him when evaluating this one.
I hate it when people quote me and respond to me when it's obvious that they didn't read what I wrote and write something that I've already addressed.
The game against STX wasn't in this period but it's why he's not in proleague, which is relevant to this month. I was explaining the difference between Bisu's lack of games and Flash's lack of games and why each implies different things: It wouldn't have been his fault if KT didn't have a chance to make it into the postseason, but they had a chance to make it over khan and flash blew it TWICE. Ignoring the series that sktt1 just gave to them because it didn't matter, check it out: stx vs kt last game Violet and 815 won, all Flash had to do is win one more game but he lost to calm AND kal. Why should this massive failure not be included? STX didn't even send out their best lineup.
On August 06 2009 09:19 ghostWriter wrote: I hate it when people quote me and respond to me when it's obvious that they didn't read what I wrote and write something that I've already addressed.
The game against STX wasn't in this period but it's why he's not in proleague, which is relevant to this month. I was explaining the difference between Bisu's lack of games and Flash's lack of games and why each implies different things: It wouldn't have been his fault if KT didn't have a chance to make it into the postseason, but they had a chance to make it over khan and flash blew it TWICE. Ignoring the series that sktt1 just gave to them because it didn't matter, check it out: stx vs kt last game Violet and 815 won, all Flash had to do is win one more game but he lost to calm AND kal. Why should this massive failure not be included? STX didn't even send out their best lineup.
This one day that wasn't even in the past PR period is so significant that it outweighs his whole year of PL success? At the minimum it should be a wash.
On August 06 2009 09:19 ghostWriter wrote: I hate it when people quote me and respond to me when it's obvious that they didn't read what I wrote and write something that I've already addressed.
The game against STX wasn't in this period but it's why he's not in proleague, which is relevant to this month. I was explaining the difference between Bisu's lack of games and Flash's lack of games and why each implies different things: It wouldn't have been his fault if KT didn't have a chance to make it into the postseason, but they had a chance to make it over khan and flash blew it TWICE. Ignoring the series that sktt1 just gave to them because it didn't matter, check it out: stx vs kt last game Violet and 815 won, all Flash had to do is win one more game but he lost to calm AND kal. Why should this massive failure not be included? STX didn't even send out their best lineup.
That match was not the only reason why KT missed the playoffs. That's exactly the kind of thinking I'm arguing against. Why is this one game that Flash screwed up to blame for them missing the playoffs, rather than the entire first 4 rounds where KT lost countless games because nobody but Flash could win?
You say "it wouldn't have been his fault if KT didn't have a chance to make into the postseason". How can you possibly keep ignoring the fact that he is the only reason that they had a chance in the first place? Can you give a single reasonable argument to explain why this one bad day which does not fall in the period covered by this PR should outweigh everything positive he did for his team this season?
Look at it this way:
-Bisu did a lot for his team this season, and didn't play games this month because they're really good and made the grand finals. -Flash did a lot for his team this season, and didn't play games this month because they really suck and missed the playoffs.
(I'm not saying Flash should be above Bisu or anything like that) There's obviously a difference in their reasons for not having played any PL games this month, but that is in their teams' performances, not their individual performances.
The fact that Flash's team wasn't in proleague doesn't hurt him directly, but it should hurt him indirectly, combined with everything else. It simply means that Flash doesn't have any other wins to back him up. In the same way, Bisu doesn't have any wins to back up his results but since they involved better opponents in better leagues, Bisu holds his ground and Flash falls.
Bisu had worse opponents in the OSL, in which he lost. Flash had worse opponents in the MSL, in which he lost. Right before the PR, both Flash and Bisu had set themselves up to BO5 the same opponent, so there's something lost in the translation on how tough their roads were. I'm pretty sure it's safe to say GOM finals about equals MSL quarters? So the main difference is Bisu was down a game in his series at the time of the PR.
Though admittedly Flash did lose in the OSL, but it was the group of death. Bisu had no groups of death and, right before the PR, was going into his last tournament at a 0-1 loss. JWD's in article explanation? Bisu's had a lot of practice time so obviously he's going to win!
JWD said it himself, the main reason Bisu is at third is because he's hypothetically as good as always. What a great reason. He holds T1 players to odd standards.
Although I like fantasy, I really dislike Bisu for his arrogance and his general attitude. However, his games have shown that he is a top 3 player, even though he lost to zero. As JWD said, ignoring his cheesy 2 gate proxy, his 3rd game showcased his fantastic PvT against the player who is currently acknowledged as the best TvP player as of now. I think someone already mentioned it, but this is Bisu's "worst" matchup (although he currently sports a 60% win which is no mean feat). Flash barely beat Julyzerg in Gom, he should have dominated him as July is simply not on the same level as he is. A win is a win, that's for sure, but he didn't play as well as he should have. He had to play it very safely and although July is a very aggressive player, there were some times when Flash was in trouble and he could have dropped from Gom (although the fact that he is in the finals is indisputable). JWD is probably biased towards sktt1 as a fan, but this doesn't take away from the fact that these sktt1 players deserve their position on the rank.
How is 3-0 with no cheese "barely" beating someone?
Yeah, Flash barely beat Stork in the OSL finals. Jaedong barely beat Flash in the GOM season 1 finals. Come on now, just because one -- yes, only one game was a heart racer for Flash does not qualify that set as anything more than Flash's typical dismantling of a weaker player. It's why he's undefeated in the whole damn tournament.
I like how you can "ignore" one of Bisu's games, which is one of his two wins. Okay, ignoring that game, Bisu was 1-2 since last PR. 2-2 with cheese? I mean come on.
Bisu is ASSUREDLY a top 3 player, I will never debate against that. Outside of slumps, he's always been a top 3 player. That doesn't mean he's a #3 PR player. Flash? Definitely a top ten player, but obviously not on the rank, right? Same should go for Bisu, who put up mediocre results but got to keep his place because he's Bisu and on SKT1.
Although I do agree JWD is a biased SKT fan (indisputable), but it is unarguable that he does have a point.
I found JWD's judgment harsh not because he kicked Flash out of PR, but rather because he put SKT1 players (who have been doing NOTHING) higher ranked to Flash (who has been doing NOTHING).
People have generally judged Flash harder than other players. When Jaedong was on the brink of the end of his career, iirc he was placed 7th in PR. Why? Who knows. Yet everyone at that day agreed even if JD was out of PR it really wouldn't of made a difference. Flash on the other hand had this unrealistic expectation planted on his face ever since he emerged to the scene. But that's okay because it only proves Flash is still acknowledged by all in a very strange but agreeable way.
But Flash fans, we have to admit Flash has been failing for the past year. Although he isn't as arrogant as he was at ever 2008 OSL, he still is doing poorly. Yes I know flash has the Highest Win percentage of ALL terrans, destroyed every carrier build making carriers from the most overpowered to now a flying paper weight. When Fantasy came with his revolutionary TvZ build, Flash has made his own adjustments making it more popular than the original Fantasy Build. He also has the greatest TvT in the whole world (unarguable). Flash has done many many things for the terran race. But right now, Flash has to prove himself. I know he already did so much at the age of 15 but this is Flash. Flash is not some one matchup wonder, he is not some shitty heir of "Sync" and he definitely is not a bad player.
I for one am happy Iris is doing so good. You know why? Because Flash now actually has 1 shot to prove he is the real thing not some random terran. I was worried Effort was gonna drop out and Flash had no way to prove himself but Flash now has a chance to rise back to the top again.
Now the question is, if Iris wins will we will hear stuff like "IRIS BEAT FLASH, IRIS IS BEST TERRAN NOW" but if Flash beats Iris, what will we hear? "Well it was obvious, flash still sux" or our complimentary "LOL FLASH DOESNT UZE VULTZ N DROPSHIPZ HE SUX FANATSY 4 LIEF"
I am not saying Fantasy is a bad terran. I have said numerous times "Flash = BO1/BO3, Fantasy = BO5." But give the fucking kid a break.
Atleast the OZ Coach Takes care of JD everyday by literally acting like his little bitch. Flash is all alone in his team. Violet? He sounds like another Lucifer and Tempest to me. Luxury? Oh my god Luxury? ForGG? Well atleast ForGG is somewhat useful but that shitfuck has been slumping ever since stork/much 2:0'd his sorry ass.
Flash is alone. He makes statements of wanting to be on the same team with Fantasy. He can't visit his parents because KTF has chained him down with a fucking contract. He practices with retarded teammates who can't even sustain a 10% win chance. HES STILL IN HIGHSCHOOL AND CANT DRINK
GIVE. THE. KID. A. BREAK.
-----------------------------------------------
And I keep hearing this stupid shit about how "Hey MrHoon, Flash isn't really hated upon, alot of players are hated upon aren't you being a butthurt fanboy?"
No please, shut the fuck up. Go to any livestreams with chat and read what you see in a Flash/Bisu/JD game. During a JD/Bisu game, I can assure you 50% of the chatter dont go "WELL THIS GAME IS BORING I THINK IM GONNA LEAVE NOW CUZ HIS STYLE IS TOTAL SHITFEST." You think your player is more hated upon than Flash for being 'boring', please be my guest and show me any S-Class player who is more hated upon than Flash.
On August 06 2009 09:19 ghostWriter wrote: Violet and 815 won, all Flash had to do is win one more game but he lost to calm AND kal. Why should this massive failure not be included? STX didn't even send out their best lineup.
Let me point something out here:
"..all Flash had to do is win one more game but he lost..." and top players never have bad days? Granted, this set was immensely important to KT's chances. But KHAN won anyway meaning it didn't matter in the end. "...to Calm AND Kal." Well, damn. If I were going to pick a Protoss and a Zerg to play for me, on the condition they had to be on same team, I can't find a better duo than these two.
Jaedong and BackHo? ...it's BackHo. Effort and Movie/Much? Close, but Movie and Much are both really inconsistent. Yarnc and Horang2? Horang2 would just cheese. YellOw and Reach? ...well, I guess you never know.
Calm, on the other hand, has only been the second or third best Zerg in the Proleague for the entire season and has killer ZvT. Kal's PvT isn't his best matchup, but it's been strong - this year he's split games with HiyA, fantasy, and sKyHigh. HiyA and fantasy are known for their TvP, while the game Kal lost to sKyHigh was a failed cheese.
I'm not excusing the losses - obviously Flash, being Flash, was still favored against both of these players. But to act like dropping games to two - TWO - near S-class players on the same day is a "massive failure" is silly.
(Oh, did I mention that Flash lost to Kal due to an uncharacteristic choice to go for fast vessels rather than his usual super-safe turret ring? Kal scouted and made the correct decision to DT drop - but hit a timing window with probably about three-five seconds to spare. Bad luck, or poor decision-making in one game, call it what you will, but Artosis agrees with me, don't knock Flash for that one.)
On August 06 2009 10:42 TwoToneTerran wrote: Bisu had worse opponents in the OSL, in which he lost. Flash had worse opponents in the MSL, in which he lost. Right before the PR, both Flash and Bisu had set themselves up to BO5 the same opponent, so there's something lost in the translation on how tough their roads were. I'm pretty sure it's safe to say GOM finals about equals MSL quarters? So the main difference is Bisu was down a game in his series at the time of the PR.
Though admittedly Flash did lose in the OSL, but it was the group of death. Bisu had no groups of death and, right before the PR, was going into his last tournament at a 0-1 loss. JWD's in article explanation? Bisu's had a lot of practice time so obviously he's going to win!
JWD said it himself, the main reason Bisu is at third is because he's hypothetically as good as always. What a great reason. He holds T1 players to odd standards.
If we keep it to thins month only, I think it's fairly clear who played the better opponents.
*** Mr. Hoon,
I can't equal your passion, but I have one point; the one thing about the "Flash's expectations are too high" argument that I don't like is that I think Flash's expectations (at least mine of him) are right alongside the expectations of Jaedong, Bisu, fantasy and EffOrt. Namely; a deep run in at least ONE starleague. Now obviously Bisu and EffOrt have since tripped up in this catagory, but Flash underperformed both of them. Proleague aside, GOM, aside, Flash did fail to meet anyone's reasonable expectations of how a S-Class player like he should perform. There may be people who hate on him for his style (Being a terran player myself, I love to watch fantasy, and am less a fan of players like Canata and Flash.) but I, for one, don't hate Flash himself, and I don't wish him ill or anything. I'm only holding him to the same expectations I hold the other top flight players to, and Flash did not perform as well as any other S-Class player this starleague season.
EDIT; To T3, below:
Oh god, I'm not going to touch GOM again, I've said all I can say on that. I just don't think it means anything- it's almost an exhibition.
Yeah, Bisu went 2-2 and Flash went 6-2. If Bisu's 2-2 was enough to keep his place, then Flash's 6-2 shouldn't have dropped him OFF the PR. Holding both players to the same criteria, Bisu should've dropped place. It's obvious they aren't held to the same, or even remotely similar criteria.
Also Flash, as of now, has performed atleast as well, if not better than Bisu. Flash dropped out of the MSL one round earlier than Bisu, at the same level in the OSL as Bisu, and of course is in the finals of, yes, the less prestigious tournament. So, playing in 3 tournaments and taking on a bigger workhorse in PL than Bisu, Flash did only a little worse in the main tournaments, and still dominated the weaker tournament. If any other person who wasn't Flash did the same as he did, in comparison to Bisu, I'd say they did better this starleague season. Kind of like Iris. Iris has done better this SL season than Bisu.
I admitted Flash has been under performing, unless I was spewing shit out of my mouth I do not recall anywhere saying flash has been doing ABSOLUTELY PERFECTOOO. I've even said I'd give fantasy a run of my money during a BO5 and even though Flash has the better record Fantasy is just alot better at the current state.
My argument is that he has not been underperforming so much that he should be considered a fucking failure.
EDIT: And yes TwoToneTerran, I don't think anyone denies Jaedong is just beyond every other player
On August 07 2009 03:22 MrHoon wrote: I admitted Flash has been under performing, unless I was spewing shit out of my mouth I do not recall anywhere saying flash has been doing ABSOLUTELY PERFECTOOO. I've even said I'd give fantasy a run of my money during a BO5 and even though Flash has the better record Fantasy is just alot better at the current state.
My argument is that he has not been underperforming so much that he should be considered a fucking failure.
EDIT: And yes TwoToneTerran, I don't think anyone denies Jaedong is just beyond every other player
Agreed, he's not a failure. I've never said he is. This has never been about Flash's legacy or career or prospects for the future, it's about his performance last month. And agree with T3 in that last bit, Jaedong is clearly the best player right now that starcraft has ever seen. But I think there's quite a bit of parity in SC, Bisu, fantasy, EffOrt, and Flash all seem close behind.
New question: What can we expect from the rest of Flash's (surely long) career?
Having a bad day is perfectly understandable. I don't expect or ask for perfection from any player. But Flash dropped those 2 games in the most important series. It matters because if they won, they would have made it to the playoffs, even if Khan won their series (they did). At the very least, they could have tied and forced a tiebreaker, but Flash's poor performance kept them from that and I will hold it against him and use it to justify his absence from this power rank. Dropping games when the stakes were the highest, to players that he should beat is a huge knock (calm is a top 10 player for sure, but Flash is better than him and kal is very good but he's not the player he was during the "6 dragons" period). If it were miracle or baby dropping games to these players, I would expect them to lose and if they lost, I wouldn't hold it against them. But it's FLASH! Flash is a top 3 or 4 player and for him to lose like that means he didn't live up to the standards that he himself set.
It's like you're ignoring all the games he won when the stakes were the highest. Ugh.
That you somehow blame Flash for KT not being in the finals, through the twisted logic of him having one off day is so disrespectful for what Flash accomplished.
And no, I'm pretty sure if they would've won that series and the series vs SKT they would've tied, not won.
Obviously because a player of his caliber should have won all those games anyway. And what games are you even talking about? The games he didn't win in OSL or the games in MSL? Because the games in Gom really weren't that impressive and his wins were all against lesser players. That day in the proleague was the most important day and extremely relevant. In this past month, Flash has accomplished very little relatively. Gom is the least prestigious tournament for a reason, although he has been doing well.
On August 07 2009 08:47 ghostWriter wrote: Obviously because a player of his caliber should have won all those games anyway. And what games are you even talking about? The games he didn't win in OSL or the games in MSL? Because the games in Gom really weren't that impressive and his wins were all against lesser players. That day in the proleague was the most important day and extremely relevant. In this past month, Flash has accomplished very little relatively. Gom is the least prestigious tournament for a reason, although he has been doing well.
Um no, I'm talking about his entire sickening proleague run. His winner's league run. All the unbelievably clutch games he won in proleague.
Do you know why the STX match was the game that gave KT a shot at playoffs? Because KT had just recently beat Khan, which closed the gap significantly.
Khan vs KT was undeniably the highest stake game for KT to win because it, unlike the STX game, was worth 2 points in the race for KT and Khan. Losing to STX would've only put them one point behind.
Now please, go remember that match up. Khan was playing what looked like their B Team (we would later realize that those guys had some serious game, massively supporting Khan past STX and against CJ, but this is retrospective so I'll get back to the topic). Flash took his win against Yoon in demanding fashion, setting the tone for KT to sweep the series. 815 delivered, netting KT's second win with his reliable ZvZ, and, at the very least, got Flash into the ace match.
Then, Luxury continues his fail streak and Violet chokes against Great.
I'm going to remind you that this -- not STX -- was the real decider for KT even having a shot at playoffs.
So now, it's the atypical KT story. Flash destroys someone, another random KT schnub wins his good match up, and the rest of KT fails, regardless of their MASSIVE star power (so much facepalming at Luxury and Violet). Now comes time for ace. Realize that Flash *is* KT's ace, no matter what silly ForGG shenanigans they show, whenever KT sends Flash, Flash was ready and practiced for this game. Khan's last encounter with KT ended with both Stork and Jangbi taking Flash down, so everyone (and I'm assuming even Flash) figured one of the dragons, neither of which had to play that day, would be practiced and fresh to snipe the hell out of Flash with either of the two pest PvTs of all times.
Then FBH comes out. FBH was a damn shock, but a smart choice. Flash had to prepare extra for a protoss in that ace match because of the double threat, but FBH, too, was completely fresh and, say what you will about his bad TvZ lately and perpetually bad TvP, FBH is still a beast TvTer on a 7 game winning streak before this game.
I'm not sure if you saw that match -- I'm hoping you did -- because it was amazing. FBH completely crippled Flash early on with a daring and precise tank push + scan, completely obliterating 80% of Flash's standing army and taking almost no losses in the process. Any other terran would've been done at that point. Fantasy, Leta, Canata, Skyhigh? There's no way any of them could make up that massive disadvantage that early, and should just very well have typed out GG. Hell, I, an insane Flash fan (atleast when I'm watching his games), thought he should've just GG'd right there because there's no way you win after losing not only the vast majority of your tanks, but your map presence and all the SCV's he lost in the follow up push to defend.
The rest of the game was fucking magic. No one jokes when they say Flash is the best TvTer. The only person with a match up honestly better than Flash's TvT is Jaedong's ZvZ. Flash, at a disadvantage a hair's breadth from being a loss, in the most important single game of KT's proleague, and probably of Flash's life, started calculating. FBH is not dumb, and did not suicidally push his army into Flash's airtight defense to try to steal an early win. He compounded his advantage and completely dominated most of the map, building a ridiculous economy and covering 2/3rds of the map in turrets.
Flash, calmly and cleanly, began to dissect FBH's control. Nearly every head on fight from that point on favored Flash. His drop ship play and map control was amazing -- narrowly dodging nearly every turret FBH placed through tight areas (usually the bridges) to harass and take control of the few expos FBH couldn't easily protect. His dropship play was phenominal.
He didn't play a perfect game, though. He made a few mistakes -- losing dropships here and there, letting FBH's tanks sneak a few free tank kills, taking some mine shots he shouldn't, etc. But Flash played what I think, and what he said was the best game of his life.
I'm not sure if that sunk in for you, because it instantly hit me as a dedicated Flash fan. Flash has played many, many amazing games. Flash is the only man who stood up to the Dragons during their absolute peak, and not only matched them, but denied their leader, the best PvTer Stork, 2 titles (GSI, OSL) in absolutely stunning games, and taking out Bisu for good measure in the OSL. Flash is the man who stood toe to toe with Jaedong in Tyrant mode(Go back to when Flash was #1 in the PR for a recap), trading blows evenly with what many have called the closest thing to a perfect starcraft player there is.
Flash, even after all these accomplishments and all these great games, still said that his personal best was his play vs FBH, in the proleague, in the match that was the ultimate do or die for KT not only to have a chance to get to playoffs, but to even have a chance to tie Khan for the spot. The highest stakes for KT, period.
You want to criticize Flash for not throwing down when the stakes were the highest for proleague? You don't know a damn thing about Flash, or the stakes he's played against. You don't know a thing about what kept KT, the team as old and loved as SKT1, alive this season. You don't even grasp how much Flash has to deal with to accomplish what he does.
This isn't his best month, not by a long shot, but that's not even the discussion here. You want to blame Flash for KT's 7th place because he couldn't win when the chips were down? That's downright despicable.
edit: haha I keep making these wall of text Flash posts but man do people keep ragging on him for all the wrong reasons. Like I'm not even the kind of guy who defended Flash when he got destroyed by Yarnc and Jaedong and other zergs, not my style to fight a hopeless battle, but this "Flash did so bad in proleague when it was so important!!!" posting is so off base it's ridiculous. I'm starting to be a more indignant, less caps lock-y MrHoon. :x
On August 07 2009 07:40 ghostWriter wrote: Having a bad day is perfectly understandable. I don't expect or ask for perfection from any player. But Flash dropped those 2 games in the most important series. It matters because if they won, they would have made it to the playoffs, even if Khan won their series (they did).
No, it wouldn't necessarily have forced a tiebreaker because KHAN's game differential would likely still be superior.
On August 07 2009 07:40 ghostWriter wrote:At the very least, they could have tied and forced a tiebreaker, but Flash's poor performance kept them from that and I will hold it against him and use it to justify his absence from this power rank.
Let's say Flash had lost to Calm (since he's been having trouble with his TvZ lately and Calm's a beast, this is perfectly plausible) and then beat Kal (say, Kal missed his timing window, which is also perfectly plausible). Would it have been a bad day? No. Would KT be in the playoffs? No.
Now further realize that the only reason Flash lost to Kal was, as I pointed out, a perfectly timed DT drop. For once in his life, Flash got beaten in a timing game. Yes, it was a bad day - but that's about the tiniest possible mistake he could have made to lose. And it made no difference overall. Also it was a month ago.
On August 07 2009 07:40 ghostWriter wrote:Dropping games when the stakes were the highest, to players that he should beat is a huge knock (calm is a top 10 player for sure, but Flash is better than him and kal is very good but he's not the player he was during the "6 dragons" period).
I think, while we're looking at last month's games, that there's an argument to be made that Jaedong shouldn't be number one. In a crucial match against KHAN that would have let OZ have a chance of reclaiming #1, Jaedong went out against Stork. OZ needed a win to hang in the race, and their first players had lost. Stork is a solid player, but his PvZ has never been good enough to beat Jaedong straight-up. Jaedong epically failed and decided to cheese with lings. If he had just won this game, there's a good chance it would be OZ waiting for T1 (or CJ!) at the top, rather than the other way around.
On August 07 2009 07:40 ghostWriter wrote:If it were miracle or baby dropping games to these players, I would expect them to lose and if they lost, I wouldn't hold it against them. But it's FLASH! Flash is a top 3 or 4 player and for him to lose like that means he didn't live up to the standards that he himself set.
Which standard is apparently perfection? Because losing *a* game in your weakest (63%) matchup, and another game to a perfect DT drop on the same day is totally something that should never happen to a top five player and is cause for instant vilification.
Woah, this is the first time SC2GG has had the better, more reasonable top 10.
On August 07 2009 09:24 TwoToneTerran wrote: You want to criticize Flash for not throwing down when the stakes were the highest for proleague? You don't know a damn thing about Flash, or the stakes he's played against. You don't know a thing about what kept KT, the team as old and loved as SKT1, alive this season. You don't even grasp how much Flash has to deal with to accomplish what he does.
On August 07 2009 09:24 TwoToneTerran wrote: You want to criticize Flash for not throwing down when the stakes were the highest for proleague? You don't know a damn thing about Flash, or the stakes he's played against. You don't know a thing about what kept KT, the team as old and loved as SKT1, alive this season. You don't even grasp how much Flash has to deal with to accomplish what he does.
Also this guy rules!
T3 (I always do that to people) is the wiliest debater about these power ranks, waaay back at the beginning, he posted a nice long reflection about Flash that was conciliatory, but just enough to plant a seed of doubt. That began the whole argument in earnest, after which he's slowly pushed the argument farther and farther along. It's actually pretty interesting to read/watch.
I remember a couple months back when I argued with him about whether Flash or fantasy was better. He did thFlash or fantasy was better/ He did the exact same thing.
On August 07 2009 08:47 ghostWriter wrote: Obviously because a player of his caliber should have won all those games anyway. And what games are you even talking about? The games he didn't win in OSL or the games in MSL? Because the games in Gom really weren't that impressive and his wins were all against lesser players. That day in the proleague was the most important day and extremely relevant. In this past month, Flash has accomplished very little relatively. Gom is the least prestigious tournament for a reason, although he has been doing well.
Um no, I'm talking about his entire sickening proleague run. His winner's league run. All the unbelievably clutch games he won in proleague.
Do you know why the STX match was the game that gave KT a shot at playoffs? Because KT had just recently beat Khan, which closed the gap significantly.
Khan vs KT was undeniably the highest stake game for KT to win because it, unlike the STX game, was worth 2 points in the race for KT and Khan. Losing to STX would've only put them one point behind.
Now please, go remember that match up. Khan was playing what looked like their B Team (we would later realize that those guys had some serious game, massively supporting Khan past STX and against CJ, but this is retrospective so I'll get back to the topic). Flash took his win against Yoon in demanding fashion, setting the tone for KT to sweep the series. 815 delivered, netting KT's second win with his reliable ZvZ, and, at the very least, got Flash into the ace match.
Then, Luxury continues his fail streak and Violet chokes against Great.
I'm going to remind you that this -- not STX -- was the real decider for KT even having a shot at playoffs.
So now, it's the atypical KT story. Flash destroys someone, another random KT schnub wins his good match up, and the rest of KT fails, regardless of their MASSIVE star power (so much facepalming at Luxury and Violet). Now comes time for ace. Realize that Flash *is* KT's ace, no matter what silly ForGG shenanigans they show, whenever KT sends Flash, Flash was ready and practiced for this game. Khan's last encounter with KT ended with both Stork and Jangbi taking Flash down, so everyone (and I'm assuming even Flash) figured one of the dragons, neither of which had to play that day, would be practiced and fresh to snipe the hell out of Flash with either of the two pest PvTs of all times.
Then FBH comes out. FBH was a damn shock, but a smart choice. Flash had to prepare extra for a protoss in that ace match because of the double threat, but FBH, too, was completely fresh and, say what you will about his bad TvZ lately and perpetually bad TvP, FBH is still a beast TvTer on a 7 game winning streak before this game.
I'm not sure if you saw that match -- I'm hoping you did -- because it was amazing. FBH completely crippled Flash early on with a daring and precise tank push + scan, completely obliterating 80% of Flash's standing army and taking almost no losses in the process. Any other terran would've been done at that point. Fantasy, Leta, Canata, Skyhigh? There's no way any of them could make up that massive disadvantage that early, and should just very well have typed out GG. Hell, I, an insane Flash fan (atleast when I'm watching his games), thought he should've just GG'd right there because there's no way you win after losing not only the vast majority of your tanks, but your map presence and all the SCV's he lost in the follow up push to defend.
The rest of the game was fucking magic. No one jokes when they say Flash is the best TvTer. The only person with a match up honestly better than Flash's TvT is Jaedong's ZvZ. Flash, at a disadvantage a hair's breadth from being a loss, in the most important single game of KT's proleague, and probably of Flash's life, started calculating. FBH is not dumb, and did not suicidally push his army into Flash's airtight defense to try to steal an early win. He compounded his advantage and completely dominated most of the map, building a ridiculous economy and covering 2/3rds of the map in turrets.
Flash, calmly and cleanly, began to dissect FBH's control. Nearly every head on fight from that point on favored Flash. His drop ship play and map control was amazing -- narrowly dodging nearly every turret FBH placed through tight areas (usually the bridges) to harass and take control of the few expos FBH couldn't easily protect. His dropship play was phenominal.
He didn't play a perfect game, though. He made a few mistakes -- losing dropships here and there, letting FBH's tanks sneak a few free tank kills, taking some mine shots he shouldn't, etc. But Flash played what I think, and what he said was the best game of his life.
I'm not sure if that sunk in for you, because it instantly hit me as a dedicated Flash fan. Flash has played many, many amazing games. Flash is the only man who stood up to the Dragons during their absolute peak, and not only matched them, but denied their leader, the best PvTer Stork, 2 titles (GSI, OSL) in absolutely stunning games, and taking out Bisu for good measure in the OSL. Flash is the man who stood toe to toe with Jaedong in Tyrant mode(Go back to when Flash was #1 in the PR for a recap), trading blows evenly with what many have called the closest thing to a perfect starcraft player there is.
Flash, even after all these accomplishments and all these great games, still said that his personal best was his play vs FBH, in the proleague, in the match that was the ultimate do or die for KT not only to have a chance to get to playoffs, but to even have a chance to tie Khan for the spot. The highest stakes for KT, period.
You want to criticize Flash for not throwing down when the stakes were the highest for proleague? You don't know a damn thing about Flash, or the stakes he's played against. You don't know a thing about what kept KT, the team as old and loved as SKT1, alive this season. You don't even grasp how much Flash has to deal with to accomplish what he does.
This isn't his best month, not by a long shot, but that's not even the discussion here. You want to blame Flash for KT's 7th place because he couldn't win when the chips were down? That's downright despicable.
edit: haha I keep making these wall of text Flash posts but man do people keep ragging on him for all the wrong reasons. Like I'm not even the kind of guy who defended Flash when he got destroyed by Yarnc and Jaedong and other zergs, not my style to fight a hopeless battle, but this "Flash did so bad in proleague when it was so important!!!" posting is so off base it's ridiculous. I'm starting to be a more indignant, less caps lock-y MrHoon. :x
This captures everything I feel about Flash so poignantly... its like an epic poem.
My Oz fanboyism won't let this small point go in that nested quote. HiyA did just as good (better recordwise, worse vs Bisu) as Flash vs the six Dragons during the Protoss Golden Age. I guess the Taek Bang era is over, but the Six Dragons moniker seems to have stuck.
On August 07 2009 11:41 Orbifold wrote: Woah, this is the first time SC2GG has had the better, more reasonable top 10.
On August 07 2009 09:24 TwoToneTerran wrote: You want to criticize Flash for not throwing down when the stakes were the highest for proleague? You don't know a damn thing about Flash, or the stakes he's played against. You don't know a thing about what kept KT, the team as old and loved as SKT1, alive this season. You don't even grasp how much Flash has to deal with to accomplish what he does.
Also this guy rules!
T3 (I always do that to people) is the wiliest debater about these power ranks, waaay back at the beginning, he posted a nice long reflection about Flash that was conciliatory, but just enough to plant a seed of doubt. That began the whole argument in earnest, after which he's slowly pushed the argument farther and farther along. It's actually pretty interesting to read/watch.
I remember a couple months back when I argued with him about whether Flash or fantasy was better. He did thFlash or fantasy was better/ He did the exact same thing.
It's like a terran push...
Haha, I'm not sure whether to take this as a compliment or not! Just try to remember I'm not even arguing for Flash to be on the PR, I'm arguing for the sake of the respect Flash should have.
On August 07 2009 09:24 TwoToneTerran wrote: I'm starting to be a more indignant, less caps lock-y MrHoon. :x
NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT! <3
yay I'm not alone anymore! I remember when Scara and I were the only Flash fans on this website lol.
Haha I was still lurking back in the cheddar terran days. I kind of miss his cheesing. =)
On August 07 2009 14:45 Avidkeystamper wrote: My Oz fanboyism won't let this small point go in that nested quote. HiyA did just as good (better recordwise, worse vs Bisu) as Flash vs the six Dragons during the Protoss Golden Age. I guess the Taek Bang era is over, but the Six Dragons moniker seems to have stuck.
Oh no, don't get me wrong here. Hiya tore himself up some dragons, but that came at kind of the tail end of Taekbang, rather than right in the middle, back when Jaedong was slumping, as opposed to later around the winner's league time when Hiya really blossomed.
Your attempt to justify Flash is admirable. I love Flash as well and I couldn't believe my eyes when he started coming back against firebathero. When his army surrounded those bcs at the top left expo, I was like HOLY SHIT HOLY SHIT!!! It doesn't change the fact that those games were played in June.
I know what he's done over the year in proleague and for the terran race. I watch all Terran games and most proleague games, but this is reflected in his kespa ranking. power rank is mostly for the past month and his past month does not reflect the greatness that should be Flash. The discussion IS about the past month because that's what the power rank is about. And the kt vs stx game was played in July and all flash did during the year, including the khan games, was nullified in that one bad series. This month, flash lost to people he shouldn't have lost to and only beat those he is supposed to beat, but did not dominate like he should have. His play looked very shaky at times.
I feel that jwd made the right choices and that all the players on the power rank had a better month than flash (except the sktt1 players but it's not their fault that they had no games to play and there was nothing to suggest that they fell off)
Jaedong's game against stork was undeniably bad, but beating canata in a close series, absolutely dominating zero and beating effort twice to reestablish his dominance in zvz (effort who was at 70% zvz before losing to calm and jaedong and is still at a very impressive 63%) has shown that he is undeniably the best player in the world. The difference between jaedong and flash is that when it counted the most, jaedong delivered and looked dominant. There is no question that jaedong is the best player right now, although flash's top 3 status looks vulnerable, today's proleague spoiler here + Show Spoiler +
especially considering fantasy's game against jaedong today.
NOT THE POINT. It doesn't matter what month it is -- you weren't arguing for shit directly relevant to the PR either, as STX vs KT wasn't in this PR's jurisdiction. You're arguing that it's Flash's fault that KT isn't in playoffs, because Flash wasn't clutch enough, and that's where the problem lies, got it?
And no, Power Ranks are not specifically for one month's time, they cover everything that happened since the last PR. check Flash's fifth place post from last PR and in the first couple of sentences JWD points out the STX match. So, guess what? The STX match has nothing to do with the PR, and therefore your nonsensical Flash-bash has nothing to do with this PR. Guess what else? My defense of Flash is not because of the PR. It's because of your outlandish accusations against him.
There's a reason like 10 people have come up to contest your crazy arguments and even more have come to support them -- Because you're making no sense and bashing Flash for the wrong reasons, whether you're a fan of him or not. If MrHoon himself was saying the crap you were, I'd take it to him just as hard, so don't think saying "I'm a flash fan too!!!" is some kind of vilification.
It was just another justification of why flash doesn't belong in this month's power rank. I've already said it isn't important as his failure to advance in the osl or msl. I didn't mean that the power ranks are only for this month, but that they reflect a player's ability and results with the most emphasis on the past month. Can you really explain his games from this past month and make a real argument as to how he performed better than anyone on the power rank or are you just going to keep harping about his past performance? His loss to stx is totally relevant, albeit indirectly, because it's one of the reasons why ktf isn't in the postseason, which is the most important tournament in July/august.
even focusing on just his 6-2 record, besides his bbs against effort, his wins and losses were against players who aren't even the best zergs on their team, forget being the best players on their teams and he didn't look as dominant as a player like him should be.
I just said that I'm a flash fan because it's true and because you keep trying to brand me as a flash hater, which I'm not. I'm just being as impartial as I can right now, as opposed to your ktf fanboyism. Flash simply doesn't deserve a place on the rank.
vilification - 2 dictionary results vil⋅i⋅fy /ˈvɪləˌfaɪ/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [vil-uh-fahy] Show IPA Use vilification in a Sentence –verb (used with object), -fied, -fy⋅ing. 1. to speak ill of; defame; slander. 2. Obsolete. to make vile.
vindication - 3 dictionary results vin⋅di⋅ca⋅tion /ˌvɪndɪˈkeɪʃən/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [vin-di-key-shuhn] Show IPA Use vindication in a Sentence –noun 1. the act of vindicating. 2. the state of being vindicated. 3. defense; excuse; justification: Poverty was a vindication for his thievery.
And here you go, right back to the rank, and right back to the STX nonsense.
Atleast we can always call someone a fanboy instead of being reasonable.
I've already said I'm not arguing for Flash to be on the rank. Do you get this? Do you understand this? It's not worth continuing if you can't grasp this one point.
Also I never called you a Flash hater. I said you bashed him, disrespected his accomplishments, et al, but I recognized that you were a Flash fan at the end of my post, even if I don't get how a fan could put up such reasonless and cherrypicked arguments that only people looking to discredit Flash would even consider.
Good job with the dictionary quotes, I'm sure you've never mistaken two words before in your life. Woot.
If you don't think flash deserves to be on the rank, then why are you arguing in the power rank thread? I'm not trying to discredit him, I'm just explaining to all of those that think he should be on the rank that he doesn't deserve it and mentioning all the relevant games as evidence.
I wasn't making fun of you for making a mistake, everyone makes mistakes. I was simply pointing it out so you could learn.
I was responding to the several people who said Flash sucks and other, more uncouth comments.
Also, I was arguing that JWD's criteria for dropping Flash and keeping Bisu in his rank is rather faulty. Not to say that means flash is the most deserving of the rank, but hell Iris had a way better month than Bisu and the only thing keeping Bisu on that list in the article itself was the "He's got a lot of practice time, so obviously Iris is boned," sentiment.
Well the iris/bisu series happened after the power rank was up... Flash definitely doesn't suck (although I think that fantasy is definitely the #1 terran). And actually bisu's game against fantasy was pvt excellence. fantasy couldn't do anything and his famous vulture/2tanks in dropship play was completely nullified. Also, losing to zero's zvp is nothing to be ashamed of, zero is a fantastic player. Basically bisu's play didn't show weakness (although if the iris vs bisu series happened earlier, of course bisu would fall down a step or two and iris would be bumped up). And actually iris's month wasn't too great, with losses to perfectman and odin. When you are a top player, you are expected to beat everyone else (although it is impossible to win every game, that's what is expected of you).
On August 07 2009 23:40 ghostWriter wrote: Well the iris/bisu series happened after the power rank was up...
Well yeah, I just said JWD ranked Bisu on his chances in the upcoming match up vs Iris (which was a dumb prediction then and a dumb prediction in retrospect), but Bisu went 2-2, since then, and it wasn't a great 2-2 either.
Flash definitely doesn't suck (although I think that fantasy is definitely the #1 terran). And actually bisu's game against fantasy was pvt excellence. fantasy couldn't do anything and his famous vulture/2tanks in dropship play was completely nullified. Also, losing to zero's zvp is nothing to be ashamed of, zero is a fantastic player. Basically bisu's play didn't show weakness (although if the iris vs bisu series happened earlier, of course bisu would fall down a step or two and iris would be bumped up). And actually iris's month wasn't too great, with losses to perfectman and odin. When you are a top player, you are expected to beat everyone else (although it is impossible to win every game, that's what is expected of you).
Well, one win on Fantasy was pure cheese, the other one was solid but Fantasy wasn't playing as good as he usually does.
Oh, so losing to Zero is forgiveable, but losing to Kwanro, a zerg just as strong as Zero, isn't? Because other than that, Flash lost to no one, and Bisu lost to Iris -- yeah, the guy who got beat by perfectman and Odin.
It's all such painfully messed up logic, but it just comes down to holding Bisu to far different standards than Flash. That he didn't move a spot, while flash dropped 6 or more (if CNBC is in order of who's best to who's worst) is completely backwards.
I mean, Flash won 4 more games than Bisu, and lost the same amount. Their losses are fairly comparable (Kwanro twice, to Zero and Iris), and so are their wins (fantasy twice vs effort, July 3 times with no losses, TheZerg(Not impressive but it's there), and Kwanro once). Flash's second loss to Kwanro wasn't even bad play, unlike his win and his first loss.
By any reason, if Flash is completely off the PR, then Bisu shouldn't be as high as he is for reasons that are literally "hypothetical."
No, they are held to the same standards. Zero was the #4 seed in the msl for a reason. His zvp is world class and it's his best matchup. Bisu hasn't played against zerg since he beat jaedong on jun 7 and losing to yellow on june 20. He actually played a shitton of PvP and prepared PvT against Iris and Fantasy for the individual leagues while Flash was preparing for TvZ in Gom, MSL AND OSL. Kwanro may be just as good as zero, but his strength is ZvZ, not ZvT as he showed zero in the msl. This is why losing to zero one time on a map that favors zerg (and that zero does well on) is not as bad as going 1-2 against Kwanro, losing on a map that favors terran (byzantium) and a map that is relatively equal (outsider). Just because two players are the same race doesn't mean that their strengths and weaknesses are the same. The fact is, Bisu did not look like he wasn't top 3 in the world, while flash did not look like a top 3 player. Bisu's other loss was to a 2 fact that Iris pulled off very well and it was in the quarterfinals of the MSL, whereas flash didn't get there.
On August 08 2009 07:03 ghostWriter wrote: The fact is, Bisu did not look like he wasn't top 3 in the world, while flash did not look like a top 3 player.
I think nobody has problem with Flash not being in top 3, but rather with Flash not being in PR at all.
On August 08 2009 07:03 ghostWriter wrote: The fact is, Bisu did not look like he wasn't top 3 in the world, while flash did not look like a top 3 player.
I think nobody has problem with Flash not being in top 3, but rather with Flash not being in PR at all.
It's because he didn't perform to his own individual standard. Flash, as a top 3 player did not dominate as he should have. If you watch the games of all the players on the power rank, they all performed equal to or greater than (particularly type-b) they should have. Although flash won, he played below his level, which is why he wasn't on the power rank.
edit: you know what, I'm kind of tired of going in circles here, I'm gonna lay this as flat as I can.
You, yourself, are doing exactly what I'm accusing JWD of doing -- cherrypicking in favor of Bisu and unfairly judging Flash in comparison.
You overrate Bisu. I'm not saying you underrate Flash -- it's fair to criticize him for his losses, be they failed cheese or absymal vZ play, but you don't criticize Bisu. You don't criticize him for playing like garbage against Iris's 2fact(the one 90% of everyone in the world following pro SC knew was the most likely build). You don't criticize him for relying on cheese to get by Fantasy in set 1. You don't criticize him for getting completely duped by Zero, even though Zero going Queens is like Fantasy using vultures. You only excuse his losses and trumpet his wins.
This would be fine, if you did the same for Flash as an 'impartial' response, excusing his losses as either flukes or powerful play by his opponents, but that's something you refuse to do for Flash that you constantly do for Bisu. The bias is pungent -- whether it's subconscious because you expect more from Flash than Bisu, I don't know, but you're far from impartial here.
I mean seriously, you just called outsider "equal," in TvZ, at a 55% advantage to Z over T, but HBR is imba for zerg at...a 55% advantage to Z over P. There's plenty more, but this is the most obnoxious disparity in your claim for 'impartial' that you JUST posted.
On August 08 2009 07:03 ghostWriter wrote: The fact is, Bisu did not look like he wasn't top 3 in the world, while flash did not look like a top 3 player.
I think nobody has problem with Flash not being in top 3, but rather with Flash not being in PR at all.
It's because he didn't perform to his own individual standard. Flash, as a top 3 player did not dominate as he should have. If you watch the games of all the players on the power rank, they all performed equal to or greater than (particularly type-b) they should have. Although flash won, he played below his level, which is why he wasn't on the power rank.
Wow, you even said it yourself. Flash is being held to different standards than everyone else in this PR.
On August 08 2009 08:35 TwoToneTerran wrote: edit: you know what, I'm kind of tired of going in circles here, I'm gonna lay this as flat as I can.
You, yourself, are doing exactly what I'm accusing JWD of doing -- cherrypicking in favor of Bisu and unfairly judging Flash in comparison.
You overrate Bisu. I'm not saying you underrate Flash -- it's fair to criticize him for his losses, be they failed cheese or absymal vZ play, but you don't criticize Bisu. You don't criticize him for playing like garbage against Iris's 2fact(the one 90% of everyone in the world following pro SC knew was the most likely build). You don't criticize him for relying on cheese to get by Fantasy in set 1. You don't criticize him for getting completely duped by Zero, even though Zero going Queens is like Fantasy using vultures. You only excuse his losses and trumpet his wins.
This would be fine, if you did the same for Flash as an 'impartial' response, excusing his losses as either flukes or powerful play by his opponents, but that's something you refuse to do for Flash that you constantly do for Bisu. The bias is pungent -- whether it's subconscious because you expect more from Flash than Bisu, I don't know, but you're far from impartial here.
There's nothing wrong with cheese, it's a powerful weapon in the psychological battle. He didn't really get duped by zero, zero just played exceptionally well and it's hard to fault bisu for that. He failed pretty badly in the game against Iris but his other game against Fantasy shows that his PvT is nearly flawless. He got greedy in the game against Iris, even though he knew Iris was going 2fact. He should have went for a more military-oriented build. Since JWD is not here, I'm just trying to argue for his choices, although he didn't ask me to. He placed the players where they were and I'm just doing the best I can to defend his decisions.
Truthfully, if it were up to me, I'd put it as 1) Jaedong 2) calm 3) effort 4) fantasy 5) canata 6) skyhigh 7) iris 8) flash 9) type-b 10) yarnc, something along those lines
And anyhow, I've taken issue with JWD's ranking criteria plenty, but you've brought up...different arguments that run the same way. JWD's argument in thread was almost exactly along the lines of "Hypothetical Bisu," and I mean, come on now.
ya i don't even like bisu, but i can see where jwd is coming from and i tried to argue from that direction after like 5 pages of basically me vs you and a few others like tree.hugger or whatnot, i'm tired.
Yeah...I've already made my points and I don't need to repeat them. But I've got to say that the stamina you guys displayed here is pretty incredible. Especially since it's been so good-mannered on both sides for the most part.
well, since ghost started it, here's my ideal PR for this past month.
Look at vs. Protoss ELO, and you see a list of people Bisu's beating over the past six months.
Look at the vs. Terran ELO, and you see a list of people who are beating Flash, plus some Terran players he's taken to school, over the past six months.
Reduce the time period to five months, and the difference is sharper... Flash loses ALL his wins over good ZvT except a BBS vs. Effort. (Even at six months, he has NO wins against good PvT.)
On August 08 2009 11:08 Severedevil wrote: Look at vs. Protoss ELO, and you see a list of people Bisu's beating over the past six months.
Look at the vs. Terran ELO, and you see a list of people who are beating Flash, plus some Terran players he's taken to school, over the past six months.
Reduce the time period to five months, and the difference is sharper... Flash loses ALL his wins over good ZvT except a BBS vs. Effort. (Even at six months, he has NO wins against good PvT.)
Yeah.
That's a nice bit of statistics massaging you did there. You do know the ELO goes both ways right? Check Flash's ELO in all three matchups ... not exactly shabby. One BBS against Effort and 3-0ing July doesn't singlehandedly make that work. But yeah, let's go with an arbitrary time period, and an arbitrary concept of "good ZvT"/"good PvT".
I think this thread has gotten pretty hilarious - Flash fans are just trying to do the following:
a) defend him from the idiots who think he's bad b) explain that he's held to a higher standard than virtually everyone in progaming (certainly all but JD ... I used to think Bisu was held to a high standard but in reality he really isn't)
Note that many Flash fans (at least myself, TwoToneTerran, and a few others) have even said that we think it's OK he's not in the rank. Let's just stop amplifying his failures by a factor of 10 relative to everyone else. Especially the Calm/Kal games ... JD < Stork -> JD < Light -> Oz out of first place anyone??
the difference is flash had only 8 games since the last proleague and jaedong has played like 15. he dropped out of gom but has been dominant in osl msl AND proleague, going 10-5 against effort, canata, kal, zero, etc. Jaedong had much more to prepare for AND he pulled it off when it counted the most. oz is in the finals anyway, kt didn't even make it into postseason. it's totally different.
Sorry, but I don't think that "not being Jaedong" is sufficient evidence to prove that he's a bad player. Flash has had a 68% winrate since the new year, falling behind only Bisu and Jaedong. PRs aside, people really need to stop blaming Flash for being on a bad team. As a strategic genius Flash requires way more time to prepare for matches than Jaedong, whose mechanics allow him to adapt to a multitude of different situations within a very brief time period. Thus Flash's 54-19 PL record cost him far more in terms of progress in individual leagues than Jaedong's 54-20. The fact that Flash's efforts for his team went for nothing should, if anything, incline you to judge him with more compassion instead of driving you to harsher criticism.
well i feel that jaedong/bisu/flash are the same level but flash hasn't gone as far as the other two in anything except gom. they are "s-class" players but flash didn't perform like an "s-class" player. flash's mechanics are just as good as jaedong's if not better and you can't use the differences in the races to justify his lackluster performance.
On August 08 2009 18:52 EvoChamber wrote: As a strategic genius Flash requires way more time to prepare for matches than Jaedong, whose mechanics allow him to adapt to a multitude of different situations within a very brief time period. Thus Flash's 54-19 PL record cost him far more in terms of progress in individual leagues than Jaedong's 54-20.
On August 08 2009 18:52 EvoChamber wrote: Sorry, but I don't think that "not being Jaedong" is sufficient evidence to prove that he's a bad player. Flash has had a 68% winrate since the new year, falling behind only Bisu and Jaedong. PRs aside, people really need to stop blaming Flash for being on a bad team. As a strategic genius Flash requires way more time to prepare for matches than Jaedong, whose mechanics allow him to adapt to a multitude of different situations within a very brief time period. Thus Flash's 54-19 PL record cost him far more in terms of progress in individual leagues than Jaedong's 54-20. The fact that Flash's efforts for his team went for nothing should, if anything, incline you to judge him with more compassion instead of driving you to harsher criticism.
i strongly disagree
i think flash requires the least time out of all pros to practice, specifically because in two matchups he can do the same build over and over and still win. flash's strength is his defensive micro, gamesense, and macro. he uses these in just about every TvP to turtle to 200. its the same build, just adapting to whatever the protoss can throw at him.
on the other hand jaedong has shown time and again that if things don't go the way he plans, he falls apart. it takes him one or two games to get accustomed to strategies, and its obvious that he is a very preparation-based player. he practices the hardest. not saying this is a bad thing, as being a hard worker is very good for your career, but i don't think you can attribute flash's slump in individual leagues to any sort of overpreparation for PL. flash is slumping because he's slumping. yes, he was good, the best, for a short period of time, but i think he's largely overrated in terms of achievement and ability. there's no doubt he is/was the best terran at some point. but he didn't hold it long, and i'd definitely put fantasy over him now, in at least 2 of the 3 matchups.
i think jaedong can't deal with new builds. he can't adapt well to new situations. this is why he's so strong in zvz and bo5s. the first is a mu where the same thing happens over and over and he can just use his speed and micro to win. the second is a situation where he can feel out the opponent in the first few games and then adjust. standard games = jaedong wins. nonstandard games = jaedong tries, often unsuccessfully, to adapt.
examples: vs skyhigh (twice), first few games OSL finals vs fantasy, vs canata (he plays mech for the first time really), vs movie, and + Show Spoiler [PL] +
On August 08 2009 20:03 ghostWriter wrote: well i feel that jaedong/bisu/flash are the same level but flash hasn't gone as far as the other two in anything except gom. they are "s-class" players but flash didn't perform like an "s-class" player. flash's mechanics are just as good as jaedong's if not better and you can't use the differences in the races to justify his lackluster performance.
You could, however, arrive at the conclusion that Flash is only 17, and that Jaedong and Bisu are 19. Flash won his first title when he was only 16 and has been held to impossible standards by everyone ever since- especially KT, netizens and TL. There is no way a 16year old can live under those burdens and continue to win league. With time, Flash will grow, and he will mature into a inhuman beast which will destroy everything.
On August 08 2009 18:52 EvoChamber wrote: Sorry, but I don't think that "not being Jaedong" is sufficient evidence to prove that he's a bad player. Flash has had a 68% winrate since the new year, falling behind only Bisu and Jaedong. PRs aside, people really need to stop blaming Flash for being on a bad team. As a strategic genius Flash requires way more time to prepare for matches than Jaedong, whose mechanics allow him to adapt to a multitude of different situations within a very brief time period. Thus Flash's 54-19 PL record cost him far more in terms of progress in individual leagues than Jaedong's 54-20. The fact that Flash's efforts for his team went for nothing should, if anything, incline you to judge him with more compassion instead of driving you to harsher criticism.
i strongly disagree
i think flash requires the least time out of all pros to practice, specifically because in two matchups he can do the same build over and over and still win. flash's strength is his defensive micro, gamesense, and macro. he uses these in just about every TvP to turtle to 200. its the same build, just adapting to whatever the protoss can throw at him.
I don't think Flash practices his builds as much as any other progamer, but at the end of the day because he rarely varies it up I think he has to put in more time to practice than others. Because his style is so reaction based he needs to be able to adapt at will; and that requires immense practice in every possible scenario. I think you really underrate the work required to "just adapt" to whatever a protoss is doing.
On August 08 2009 20:03 ghostWriter wrote: well i feel that jaedong/bisu/flash are the same level but flash hasn't gone as far as the other two in anything except gom. they are "s-class" players but flash didn't perform like an "s-class" player. flash's mechanics are just as good as jaedong's if not better and you can't use the differences in the races to justify his lackluster performance.
You could, however, arrive at the conclusion that Flash is only 17, and that Jaedong and Bisu are 19. Flash won his first title when he was only 16 and has been held to impossible standards by everyone ever since- especially KT, netizens and TL. There is no way a 16year old can live under those burdens and continue to win league. With time, Flash will grow, and he will mature into a inhuman beast which will destroy everything.
it's very true, but he set himself up for it ever by playing that well and turning into a monster. if you raise people's expectations like that, you have to expect people to continue expecting great things from you no matter how old you are.
Also, Fantasy just definitely proved his TvZ, dismantling Jaedong when it mattered the most (whether involving cheese or not). He'll hold the #1 terran position for a while now regardless of what happens in the OSL.
Also, Fantasy just definitely proved his TvZ, dismantling Jaedong when it mattered the most (whether involving cheese or not). He'll hold the #1 terran position for a while now regardless of what happens in the OSL.
Also, Fantasy just definitely proved his TvZ, dismantling Jaedong when it mattered the most (whether involving cheese or not). He'll hold the #1 terran position for a while now regardless of what happens in the OSL.
Also, Fantasy just definitely proved his TvZ, dismantling Jaedong when it mattered the most (whether involving cheese or not). He'll hold the #1 terran position for a while now regardless of what happens in the OSL.
On August 08 2009 18:52 EvoChamber wrote: Sorry, but I don't think that "not being Jaedong" is sufficient evidence to prove that he's a bad player. Flash has had a 68% winrate since the new year, falling behind only Bisu and Jaedong. PRs aside, people really need to stop blaming Flash for being on a bad team. As a strategic genius Flash requires way more time to prepare for matches than Jaedong, whose mechanics allow him to adapt to a multitude of different situations within a very brief time period. Thus Flash's 54-19 PL record cost him far more in terms of progress in individual leagues than Jaedong's 54-20. The fact that Flash's efforts for his team went for nothing should, if anything, incline you to judge him with more compassion instead of driving you to harsher criticism.
i strongly disagree
i think flash requires the least time out of all pros to practice, specifically because in two matchups he can do the same build over and over and still win. flash's strength is his defensive micro, gamesense, and macro. he uses these in just about every TvP to turtle to 200. its the same build, just adapting to whatever the protoss can throw at him.
on the other hand jaedong has shown time and again that if things don't go the way he plans, he falls apart. it takes him one or two games to get accustomed to strategies, and its obvious that he is a very preparation-based player. he practices the hardest. not saying this is a bad thing, as being a hard worker is very good for your career, but i don't think you can attribute flash's slump in individual leagues to any sort of overpreparation for PL. flash is slumping because he's slumping. yes, he was good, the best, for a short period of time, but i think he's largely overrated in terms of achievement and ability. there's no doubt he is/was the best terran at some point. but he didn't hold it long, and i'd definitely put fantasy over him now, in at least 2 of the 3 matchups.
i think jaedong can't deal with new builds. he can't adapt well to new situations. this is why he's so strong in zvz and bo5s. the first is a mu where the same thing happens over and over and he can just use his speed and micro to win. the second is a situation where he can feel out the opponent in the first few games and then adjust. standard games = jaedong wins. nonstandard games = jaedong tries, often unsuccessfully, to adapt.
examples: vs skyhigh (twice), first few games OSL finals vs fantasy, vs canata (he plays mech for the first time really), vs movie, and + Show Spoiler [PL] +
vs fantasy in PL
You know, now that I think about it, you're very right about Jaedong's weaknesses. Jaedong does have a lot of trouble with new builds. He'll lose games, but once he's seen the build a few times he will make the necessary adaptations. There's sort of a covert war between Jaedong and the Terran think tank at SKT1 where T1 takes the strategic initiative while Jaedong is on the defensive. If they throw enough funky builds at him like the bunker/vulture/wraith cc stuff Canata was throwing at him or the 2rax opening fantasy showed off today they can checkmate him strategically and negate all the tactical advantages that his perfect mechanics would otherwise provide him. The catch is that no build will work for long. Given time Jaedong does adapt to new styles of play. He creates new forms of standard play and his mechanics can work their magic again. They (Boxer/oov/fantasy) will take games off of him only so long as they keep making innovative builds, which I quite frankly think is great for the game as a whole. I do think that Jaedong will win out in the end, but he'll do it a lot faster if he starts taking some strategic initiative of his own instead of going through the same grueling cycle of infection/immunization.
That's why I'm really glad that Effort's stepped up recently, since with Savior backing him he's far more inclined to focus on strategy (though his mechanics are excellent as well). If Effort comes up with anything in ZvT (because of Jaedong (and Yellow's huge morale-boosting win against Bisu) ZvP is slowly reverting towards an almost pre-revolutionary level of Zerg imbalance, there's no great need for innovation there), Jaedong can adopt it and execute it equally well, if not better. Jaedong cut his teeth during the Savior era using Savior's builds, and there's no reason he can't do the same with regards to Effort, even if it means reverting back to a 3hatch-centered playstyle.
I do take issue with some of what you said about Flash though. True, his mechanics and game sense are sufficient to own lesser players in the Proleague without too much trouble. But that doesn't mean that he can skip practice for Proleague in the least, because players are more inclined to do crazy builds against him there just because they know they can't compete with him tactically (recall that the first crack in his brief reign of dominance came when Best went 2base norobo carriers against him on Colosseum). Since he plays virtually every ace match for KT he often has to prepare for more than one matchup on the ace map, which eats into his time even further. It's a testament to his dedication that he can post the kind of results he does in PL, and a testament to the limits of his dedication that he can't progress in individual leagues while playing PL nonstop. The caliber of players in the solo leagues is high enough that Flash can't just coast on his mechanics/game sense. If he doesn't have the time to prepare for every possible situation ahead of him (and that is definitely his style, it's why he never scouts), then there will be games like the one against Yarnc in OSL where he gets caught with his pants down by cheese or aggressive gambits.
KT definitely hurts Flash by leaning on him too much. If Flash played for a deeper team like SKT or Samsung or STX or CJ I think he would have one or two more titles than he does right now simply because he would have much more of the time he needs to ponder everything thoroughly before solo league games. What's worse is that the situation sort of feeds itself, as the other KT players grow accustomed to having Flash bail them out time and time again (similar to what happened to OZ with Jaedong in PL R4 and R5) and give less effort than they otherwise would have. Not to mention that with such a workload there's no way Flash will find enough time to add new innovations to the metagame, which he clearly both does and enjoys doing (don't see Carriers much anymore). Fantasy is better right now because he has a wonderful group of people backing him up. He has the best coach, two ex-bonjwa of the same race with all the firsthand experience that that implies, and Bisu, Best, and Canata as reliable support in PL. Fantasy's in a situation where his natural talents are nurtured and his natural weaknesses are weeded out or hidden so well that they're not a liability (the whole mech/valkyrie trend was developed to make his then-middling bio control a non-factor in TvZ). It's hardly surprising that as time passes he has surpassed Flash, who doesn't have even one of the advantages mentioned above working in his favor.
Also, Fantasy just definitely proved his TvZ, dismantling Jaedong when it mattered the most (whether involving cheese or not). He'll hold the #1 terran position for a while now regardless of what happens in the OSL.
8rax bunker rush is cheese, don't even kid. It's just terran's got such wonderful early game cheese and turtling powers that it's not necessarily 'all-in,' so to speak. Fast producing marines to build a bunker to kill a Zerg's hatch and drones is still cheese, though.
I would say that 8 rax isn't cheese, but a bunker rush is. And since you almost ALWAYS bunker rush with an 8 rax...well. I mean 9 pool isn't considered cheese in ZvT because you don't massling and pull drones all the time afterwards.
On August 09 2009 06:14 iamho wrote: sorry skt fanboys, but canata and fantasy's combined 4 wins against jaedong this month ALL CAME FROM BUNKER RUSHING.
If I were to take you at your word, that would make JD a fool. A fool he is not. I don't even need to discuss how the games played out for that much to be obvious.
On August 09 2009 00:59 EvoChamber wrote: KT definitely hurts Flash by leaning on him too much. If Flash played for a deeper team like SKT or Samsung or STX or CJ I think he would have one or two more titles than he does right now simply because he would have much more of the time he needs to ponder everything thoroughly before solo league games. What's worse is that the situation sort of feeds itself, as the other KT players grow accustomed to having Flash bail them out time and time again (similar to what happened to OZ with Jaedong in PL R4 and R5) and give less effort than they otherwise would have. Not to mention that with such a workload there's no way Flash will find enough time to add new innovations to the metagame, which he clearly both does and enjoys doing (don't see Carriers much anymore). Fantasy is better right now because he has a wonderful group of people backing him up. He has the best coach, two ex-bonjwa of the same race with all the firsthand experience that that implies, and Bisu, Best, and Canata as reliable support in PL. Fantasy's in a situation where his natural talents are nurtured and his natural weaknesses are weeded out or hidden so well that they're not a liability (the whole mech/valkyrie trend was developed to make his then-middling bio control a non-factor in TvZ). It's hardly surprising that as time passes he has surpassed Flash, who doesn't have even one of the advantages mentioned above working in his favor.
I think KT should just stop sending Flash in ace matches. (a) It's not like they're solid enough to win next year's proleague anyway, so the losses they'll incur won't matter much, (b) they'll grow some new talent, and (c) Flash will get a break so he can focus a bit more on improving his individual league performances, which could definitely do with a boost.
On August 09 2009 06:14 iamho wrote: sorry skt fanboys, but canata and fantasy's combined 4 wins against jaedong this month ALL CAME FROM BUNKER RUSHING.
lmao First of all, bunker rushing isn't some overpowered, impossible to beat strategy. Second, the bunker on outsider can hardly be qualified as a "rush". The game on outsider was a macro game in which fantasy was behind and barely managed to eke out a win. To dismiss it as nothing more than a bunker rush is demeaning to both fantasy and jaedong and to miss the entire 25 minutes or so that followed. Third, fantasy has only 2 wins against jaedong, not 4. What an awful comment.
Jaedong played much stronger than fantasy did in the outsider game, the debacle with the guardians really set him back; if he had executed that flank at the end he would have won. Nothing I've seen refutes that Fantasy is an average terran (at least in tvz) with above average coaching staff and a lot of special attention. I'll call him good when he actually plays well, not just makes good decisions
ghostWriter, he meant combined wins from Canata AND fantasy, they had 2 each.
But yeah, Game 1 was NOT a bunker rush win, because JD fought it off and came out on top. That game was won due to pure determination of fantasy and an uncharacteristic under-aggression from JD.
A win is a win, and fanta produced when it mattered the most, so he is the obvious #1 contender right now. JD will have to really fight back in the OSL and MSL to fight back for that spot.
Bisu didn't get a chance to showcase his play, since PerfectMan vs Bisu's PVP is not much contest. Combined with his loss to Iris, he's really not in any position to move up.
On August 09 2009 06:14 iamho wrote: sorry skt fanboys, but canata and fantasy's combined 4 wins against jaedong this month ALL CAME FROM BUNKER RUSHING.
lmao First of all, bunker rushing isn't some overpowered, impossible to beat strategy. Second, the bunker on outsider can hardly be qualified as a "rush". The game on outsider was a macro game in which fantasy was behind and barely managed to eke out a win. To dismiss it as nothing more than a bunker rush is demeaning to both fantasy and jaedong and to miss the entire 25 minutes or so that followed. Third, fantasy has only 2 wins against jaedong, not 4. What an awful comment.
On August 09 2009 06:03 Avidkeystamper wrote: I would say that 8 rax isn't cheese, but a bunker rush is. And since you almost ALWAYS bunker rush with an 8 rax...well. I mean 9 pool isn't considered cheese in ZvT because you don't massling and pull drones all the time afterwards.
I'd just like to mention that Bunker Rush used to be almost the standard In TvZ for quite a while. People would open 1 Rax into CC, while pressuring Z with a Bunker. It wasn't designed to outright win the game with it, Terran didn't even have to really kill anything, economy wise the fact alone that Z had to pull at least half his Drones to defend made it more than worth it (and if he didn't...). Zerg players got so good at killing the Marines with pulled Drones that the popularity of it faded again. But still, it doesn't really cost the Terran all that much and it has the potential to deal tons of damage
In the Ace Fantasy wen't 9 Supply, 9 Rax, 11 Rax btw and the Bunker had no influence on the outcome of the game, it finished after both (morphing) Sunks and all the Lings were dead.
On August 09 2009 06:03 Avidkeystamper wrote: I would say that 8 rax isn't cheese, but a bunker rush is. And since you almost ALWAYS bunker rush with an 8 rax...well. I mean 9 pool isn't considered cheese in ZvT because you don't massling and pull drones all the time afterwards.
I'd just like to mention that Bunker Rush used to be almost the standard In TvZ for quite a while. People would open 1 Rax into CC, while pressuring Z with a Bunker. It wasn't designed to outright win the game with it, Terran didn't even have to really kill anything, economy wise the fact alone that Z had to pull at least half his Drones to defend made it more than worth it (and if he didn't...). Zerg players got so good at killing the Marines with pulled Drones that the popularity of it faded again. But still, it doesn't really cost the Terran all that much and it has the potential to deal tons of damage
In the Ace Fantasy wen't 9 Supply, 9 Rax, 11 Rax btw and the Bunker had no influence on the outcome of the game, it finished after both (morphing) Sunks and all the Lings were dead.
Just because it used to be standard doesn't mean anything, really. I wasn't even talking about this game anyways, just wanted to refute d(O.o)a's point, I don't know why he's talking about an 8 rax.
Oh haha, I misread a bit. Thanks for pointing it out, but technically, canata's wins were last month. ^^
Also, my point still stands, to call their wins from bunker rushes is completely oversimplifying and not even true. Canata vs Jaedong game 1 was the best vulture micro of all time. Game 1, fantasy vs jaedong was way more than a mere bunker rush (you can't even qualify a bunker that late as a rush), it was like a 30 minute game -_-
Also, from what I recall, I think that the commentators said it was a 8rax/8supply for a bsb. I didn't see the scv count so I wouldn't swear by this though.
On August 09 2009 06:03 Avidkeystamper wrote: I would say that 8 rax isn't cheese, but a bunker rush is. And since you almost ALWAYS bunker rush with an 8 rax...well. I mean 9 pool isn't considered cheese in ZvT because you don't massling and pull drones all the time afterwards.
I'd just like to mention that Bunker Rush used to be almost the standard In TvZ for quite a while. People would open 1 Rax into CC, while pressuring Z with a Bunker. It wasn't designed to outright win the game with it, Terran didn't even have to really kill anything, economy wise the fact alone that Z had to pull at least half his Drones to defend made it more than worth it (and if he didn't...). Zerg players got so good at killing the Marines with pulled Drones that the popularity of it faded again. But still, it doesn't really cost the Terran all that much and it has the potential to deal tons of damage
In the Ace Fantasy wen't 9 Supply, 9 Rax, 11 Rax btw and the Bunker had no influence on the outcome of the game, it finished after both (morphing) Sunks and all the Lings were dead.
Is this referring to the Midas period of TvZ, or something farther in the past? Just curious.
And as for AKS's comment, I think the builds used by Canata and Fantasy recently can't be classified as cheese since even if they fail they do serious economic damage at the cost of maybe two or three cut SCVs. You can compare them to the use of single proxy gates in PvT and PvP, which operate under the same principle. 8rax/vulture/wraith and this 9/9/11 (Jung Laden indeed) build Carnac brings up are just aggressive openings that punish Zerg for not responding perfectly to them. They're unfair (which is to be expected, given how T > Z > P > T), but they're not cheese. (IMO the 2fac is far more of a cheese, but we simply don't call it that because it's such a badass build.) We're gonna have to make up a new pejorative term for these builds, like Cheetos or something.
On August 09 2009 06:03 Avidkeystamper wrote: I would say that 8 rax isn't cheese, but a bunker rush is. And since you almost ALWAYS bunker rush with an 8 rax...well. I mean 9 pool isn't considered cheese in ZvT because you don't massling and pull drones all the time afterwards.
I'd just like to mention that Bunker Rush used to be almost the standard In TvZ for quite a while. People would open 1 Rax into CC, while pressuring Z with a Bunker. It wasn't designed to outright win the game with it, Terran didn't even have to really kill anything, economy wise the fact alone that Z had to pull at least half his Drones to defend made it more than worth it (and if he didn't...). Zerg players got so good at killing the Marines with pulled Drones that the popularity of it faded again. But still, it doesn't really cost the Terran all that much and it has the potential to deal tons of damage
In the Ace Fantasy wen't 9 Supply, 9 Rax, 11 Rax btw and the Bunker had no influence on the outcome of the game, it finished after both (morphing) Sunks and all the Lings were dead.
Just because it used to be standard doesn't mean anything, really. I wasn't even talking about this game anyways, just wanted to refute d(O.o)a's point, I don't know why he's talking about an 8 rax.
"whether involving cheese or no" from what I quoted.
Also, Fantasy just definitely proved his TvZ, dismantling Jaedong when it mattered the most (whether involving cheese or not). He'll hold the #1 terran position for a while now regardless of what happens in the OSL.
Dude 8rax is not cheese because you can fail to do any damage and still be in a great position.
Just because something is not all-in does not mean its not cheese. Cheese just means non standard play. The fact that T can fail the cheese and still be in great position only shows that Terrans hold a huge advantage over Z in TvZ and SC history + statistics show us that its true.
Also, Fantasy just definitely proved his TvZ, dismantling Jaedong when it mattered the most (whether involving cheese or not). He'll hold the #1 terran position for a while now regardless of what happens in the OSL.
Dude 8rax is not cheese because you can fail to do any damage and still be in a great position.
Just because something is not all-in does not mean its not cheese. Cheese just means non standard play. The fact that T can fail the cheese and still be in great position only shows that Terrans hold a huge advantage over Z in TvZ and SC history + statistics show us that its true.
also it's not true. if you go for a faster rax you are sacrificing econ. if you don't do damage with your marines, you are behind from the start.
You're only behind in economy if the zerg 12 hatches. Any earlier pool timing and the economy is roughly even. Though if he does 12 hatch, I find it hard to see how the marines won't do any damage against such a late pool.
Also, Fantasy just definitely proved his TvZ, dismantling Jaedong when it mattered the most (whether involving cheese or not). He'll hold the #1 terran position for a while now regardless of what happens in the OSL.
Dude 8rax is not cheese because you can fail to do any damage and still be in a great position.
Just because something is not all-in does not mean its not cheese. Cheese just means non standard play. The fact that T can fail the cheese and still be in great position only shows that Terrans hold a huge advantage over Z in TvZ and SC history + statistics show us that its true.
Using this logic you're also incorrect because 8rax could very well be considered standard.
Jaedong played much stronger than fantasy did in the outsider game, the debacle with the guardians really set him back; if he had executed that flank at the end he would have won. Nothing I've seen refutes that Fantasy is an average terran (at least in tvz) with above average coaching staff and a lot of special attention. I'll call him good when he actually plays well, not just makes good decisions
The fact of the matter is that an above-average coaching staff and a lot of special attention have made him not just an average or good terran, but an excellent terran. And it's not just the coaches and the attention --- fantasy is a real workhorse when it comes to practicing. He's also got the raw talent and the nerves of a champion. This guy's the real deal, like it or not. I'm sorry he beat your favorite player --- I was rooting for Jaedong too in game 1 on outsider and it broke my heart to see him lose --- but I can recognize amazing play when I see it. Fantasy had Oov/Flash macro, Boxer harass, and his overarching plan (mass tank to prevent nat break and then push out when Jaedong was starved for minerals) worked perfectly.
Also, Fantasy just definitely proved his TvZ, dismantling Jaedong when it mattered the most (whether involving cheese or not). He'll hold the #1 terran position for a while now regardless of what happens in the OSL.
Dude 8rax is not cheese because you can fail to do any damage and still be in a great position.
Just because something is not all-in does not mean its not cheese. Cheese just means non standard play. The fact that T can fail the cheese and still be in great position only shows that Terrans hold a huge advantage over Z in TvZ and SC history + statistics show us that its true.
Using this logic you're also incorrect because 8rax could very well be considered standard.
Losing to hyuk is terrible of course (especially since jaedong is the best zvz and hyuk is an sktt1 zerg), but losing to fantasy twice is nothing to be ashamed of, especially considering fantasy's insane macro in game 1and his well-played cheese/mind games in game 2.
Losing to hyuk is terrible of course (especially since jaedong is the best zvz and hyuk is an sktt1 zerg), but losing to fantasy twice is nothing to be ashamed of, especially considering fantasy's insane macro in game 1and his well-played cheese/mind games in game 2.
Losing to hyuk is terrible of course (especially since jaedong is the best zvz and hyuk is an sktt1 zerg), but losing to fantasy twice is nothing to be ashamed of, especially considering fantasy's insane macro in game 1and his well-played cheese/mind games in game 2.
I feel like jaedong would have to lose really badly in msl/osl to drop his #1 spot, maybe even get swept by fantasy or something. He's just too far ahead of the competition to have a few bad decisions in proleague, even if it was the grand finals, impact his ranking.
Fantasy should take the #1 spot easily if he beats Jaedong. If not, then obviously JD keeps the #1. Unless he loses to Calm, which I don't see happening.
On August 08 2009 23:36 Hot_Bid wrote: i think flash requires the least time out of all pros to practice, specifically because in two matchups he can do the same build over and over and still win. flash's strength is his defensive micro, gamesense, and macro. he uses these in just about every TvP to turtle to 200. its the same build, just adapting to whatever the protoss can throw at him.
It looks like Flash has invested a lot of time trying to craft and refine "solve-all" builds that will work on almost every map and against almost every opponent. You can see it by the way he plays TvP (notice that basically nobody else plays TvP that way right now), and the way he started to try to craft a solve-all for TvZ that depended less on MnM vs Muta micro and things like this. I would argue that (and this is definitely partly his fault) this attitude is due in large part to the sheer number of games he's had to play, and the over-dependence his team has on him. Oh, and bad coaching too.
Say what you want about practice time for TvT but I don't think Flash has to practice for it any less than JD does ZvZ or Bisu does PvP (in fact I think TvT and PvP both take way more practice than ZvZ because you actually have to prepare for potential proxies and other unique builds which are virtually impossible in ZvZ).
Flash's problem right now is he's gotten to this bad point where his TvP style works 100% of the time against mediocre Protoss players (seriously, when was the last time he lost to a mediocre Protoss player playing the "Flash build"?) and nearly 0% of the time against the elite. Similarly, his latest TvZ build (the bio-gol one) was so good against mediocre Zergs that we were getting ready to proclaim it "TvZ revolution", only to see it get picked apart by elite ZvT players and their carefully crafted 2 Hatch timings (Yarnc, JD).
Some combination of more practice time and better coaching will hopefully teach Flash that he needs to sacrifice some percentage of his overall likelihood to win to increase his likelihood of winning games that really matter. Notice how Luxury played like crap in PL while winning MSL, then stopped caring altogether and just played like crap all around.
On August 08 2009 23:36 Hot_Bid wrote: flash is slumping because he's slumping. yes, he was good, the best, for a short period of time, but i think he's largely overrated in terms of achievement and ability. there's no doubt he is/was the best terran at some point. but he didn't hold it long, and i'd definitely put fantasy over him now, in at least 2 of the 3 matchups.
Meh, he was the best player all around for about 3 1/2 months (basically until ForGG and Luxury knocked him out of MSL/OSL) and indisputably the best Terran for about a year. And to say "fantasy over Flash now in at least 2 of the 3 matchups" is a pretty harsh way to put it - is there any question at all Flash is better at TvT?
Also, Fantasy pulled one amazing TvZ comeback (a game that Jaedong really really should have won, as his coach alluded to that in the interview) and one brilliant build, invented by Boxer, that literally any pro Terran could have pulled off given JD's response. I agree that Fantasy is better in TvZ (because you're always scared of what he'll do) but just a week ago people still weren't that sure how good Fantasy's TvZ was because he loses to bad players sometimes and his bio control is still not great for a player of his class (and it wasn't that good against JD on Outsider either, which is part of the reason why JD got a huge lead and even infested a CC at one point...).
Also, Fantasy pulled one amazing TvZ comeback (a game that Jaedong really really should have won, as his coach alluded to that in the interview) and one brilliant build, invented by Boxer, that literally any pro Terran could have pulled off given JD's response. I agree that Fantasy is better in TvZ (because you're always scared of what he'll do) but just a week ago people still weren't that sure how good Fantasy's TvZ was because he loses to bad players sometimes and his bio control is still not great for a player of his class (and it wasn't that good against JD on Outsider either, which is part of the reason why JD got a huge lead and even infested a CC at one point...).
Tired of this "fantasy just executes builds that better tacticians come up with" line. Fantasy is by all accounts an excellent tactician in his own right and he has the control to pull of so many strategies. It's disingenuous to suggest that any Terran could've pulled off that build, because that doesn't explain why fantasy is SKT1's #1. Why not Canata? Why not Mong? If fantasy is some mindless robot, then why is he so much better than any other SKT1 Terran? Why is he the best Terran in the game right now?
ZvZ is definitely the easiest to prepare for because many games don't last that long. If it's a 9pool vs a 12hatch on a map like outsider, the game can end very quickly. However, even long games in zvz tend to be around the 15 minute range with ling and muta/scourge micro only while TvT can easily become a 40 minute turtlefest up to battlecruiser battles or whatnot.
On August 10 2009 11:08 ghostWriter wrote: ZvZ is definitely the easiest to prepare for because many games don't last that long. If it's a 9pool vs a 12hatch on a map like outsider, the game can end very quickly. However, even long games in zvz tend to be around the 15 minute range with ling and muta/scourge micro only while TvT can easily become a 40 minute turtlefest up to battlecruiser battles or whatnot.
well you could just as easily say that a BBS vs a 14CC on outsider can end the game very quickly.
On August 10 2009 11:08 ghostWriter wrote: ZvZ is definitely the easiest to prepare for because many games don't last that long. If it's a 9pool vs a 12hatch on a map like outsider, the game can end very quickly. However, even long games in zvz tend to be around the 15 minute range with ling and muta/scourge micro only while TvT can easily become a 40 minute turtlefest up to battlecruiser battles or whatnot.
well you could just as easily say that a BBS vs a 14CC on outsider can end the game very quickly.
The difference is, bbs isn't standard and neither is 14cc so I don't understand what you're trying to say. Unless they were practicing these specific builds, I don't see why they would do it in practice. In general, zvz takes the shortest amount of time to play and tvt takes the longest. Of course, this isn't always true but it's the trend because of the nature of the matchups.
On August 10 2009 07:15 Avidkeystamper wrote: Fantasy should take the #1 spot easily if he beats Jaedong. If not, then obviously JD keeps the #1. Unless he loses to Calm, which I don't see happening.
Given that he beat JD in essentially a Bo3 in the most important tournament in Starcraft and Jaedong also lost his match to Hyuk in the same hugely important match, I don't see why fantasy would have to beat him to take #1. Why should he have to beat Jaedong in two different tournaments while the zerg only has to beat fantasy in one and all his PL mistakes are forgiven?
I think Jaedong's victory needs to be crushing if he is going to take it from fantasy, you can't go 0-3 in the proleague with two of the losses to your competition for #1 and expect to be on even footing with them going into a Bo5.
Also, Fantasy pulled one amazing TvZ comeback (a game that Jaedong really really should have won, as his coach alluded to that in the interview) and one brilliant build, invented by Boxer, that literally any pro Terran could have pulled off given JD's response. I agree that Fantasy is better in TvZ (because you're always scared of what he'll do) but just a week ago people still weren't that sure how good Fantasy's TvZ was because he loses to bad players sometimes and his bio control is still not great for a player of his class (and it wasn't that good against JD on Outsider either, which is part of the reason why JD got a huge lead and even infested a CC at one point...).
Tired of this "fantasy just executes builds that better tacticians come up with" line. Fantasy is by all accounts an excellent tactician in his own right and he has the control to pull of so many strategies. It's disingenuous to suggest that any Terran could've pulled off that build, because that doesn't explain why fantasy is SKT1's #1. Why not Canata? Why not Mong? If fantasy is some mindless robot, then why is he so much better than any other SKT1 Terran? Why is he the best Terran in the game right now?
They get the same coaching, but his execution and his overall game is probably just better. But I totally agree with your point; Fantasy is not simply an extension of oov/boxer/any other coach or player. Not only canata and mong, but why aren't boxer or midas doing very well? He is a great player in his own right and he just happens to have one of the best support systems behind him. He defines his own playing style and to take away from his ability and results by pinning it on the coaches is really selling him short.
On August 10 2009 07:15 Avidkeystamper wrote: Fantasy should take the #1 spot easily if he beats Jaedong. If not, then obviously JD keeps the #1. Unless he loses to Calm, which I don't see happening.
Given that he beat JD in essentially a Bo3 in the most important tournament in Starcraft and Jaedong also lost his match to Hyuk in the same hugely important match, I don't see why fantasy would have to beat him to take #1. Why should he have to beat Jaedong in two different tournaments while the zerg only has to beat fantasy in one and all his PL mistakes are forgiven?
I think Jaedong's victory needs to be crushing if he is going to take it from fantasy, you can't go 0-3 in the proleague with two of the losses to your competition for #1 and expect to be on even footing with them going into a Bo5.
Well, if JD beats Fantasy, you could say Given that he beat Fantasy in a Bo5 in the most prestigious individual tournament, I don't see why losing a Bo3 should move him down.
On August 10 2009 07:15 Avidkeystamper wrote: Fantasy should take the #1 spot easily if he beats Jaedong. If not, then obviously JD keeps the #1. Unless he loses to Calm, which I don't see happening.
Given that he beat JD in essentially a Bo3 in the most important tournament in Starcraft and Jaedong also lost his match to Hyuk in the same hugely important match, I don't see why fantasy would have to beat him to take #1. Why should he have to beat Jaedong in two different tournaments while the zerg only has to beat fantasy in one and all his PL mistakes are forgiven?
I think Jaedong's victory needs to be crushing if he is going to take it from fantasy, you can't go 0-3 in the proleague with two of the losses to your competition for #1 and expect to be on even footing with them going into a Bo5.
Well, if JD beats Fantasy, you could say Given that he beat Fantasy in a Bo5 in the most prestigious individual tournament, I don't see why losing a Bo3 should move him down.
I can't think of many things that would move a person further down a PR than losing three games in the most important match of the year, and on top of that fantasy's PR stock just skyrocketed. He needs to win very convincingly.
If Fantasy loses, that would mean he just lost three games in the most important individual league? Pointless debate anyways, the recent games leave the most impressions anyways. I mean last month does anyone even remember JD going on a 3 loss streak?
On August 11 2009 01:10 Avidkeystamper wrote: If Fantasy loses, that would mean he just lost three games in the most important individual league? Pointless debate anyways, the recent games leave the most impressions anyways. I mean last month does anyone even remember JD going on a 3 loss streak?
Sure, but how many OSLs are there a year? I'm not saying he can't keep his #1 spot, but the weights are certainly heavily tipped both against him and in fantasy's favor right now.
If we wanted to be more formal, JD's margin of victory over fantasy must be equal to or greater than the disparity between their respective performances in the PL final. 0-3 vs 3-0 MVP. (although this is of course simplified, as there will be more going on this month than just those two events)
On August 11 2009 01:10 Avidkeystamper wrote: If Fantasy loses, that would mean he just lost three games in the most important individual league? Pointless debate anyways, the recent games leave the most impressions anyways. I mean last month does anyone even remember JD going on a 3 loss streak?
Sure, but how many OSLs are there a year? I'm not saying he can't keep his #1 spot, but the weights are certainly heavily tipped both against him and in fantasy's favor right now.
If we wanted to be more formal, JD's margin of victory over fantasy must be equal to or greater than the disparity between their respective performances in the PL final. 0-3 vs 3-0 MVP. (although this is of course simplified, as there will be more going on this month than just those two events)
Wow, that's a really high bar you're setting, considering Jaedong is still in the MSL.
On August 11 2009 01:10 Avidkeystamper wrote: If Fantasy loses, that would mean he just lost three games in the most important individual league? Pointless debate anyways, the recent games leave the most impressions anyways. I mean last month does anyone even remember JD going on a 3 loss streak?
Sure, but how many OSLs are there a year? I'm not saying he can't keep his #1 spot, but the weights are certainly heavily tipped both against him and in fantasy's favor right now.
If we wanted to be more formal, JD's margin of victory over fantasy must be equal to or greater than the disparity between their respective performances in the PL final. 0-3 vs 3-0 MVP. (although this is of course simplified, as there will be more going on this month than just those two events)
Wow, that's a really high bar you're setting, considering Jaedong is still in the MSL.
Hence the parenthesis. That's also where the respective weighting of OSL, MSL, and PL results comes in. Have fun with that, JWD.
On August 11 2009 01:18 Avidkeystamper wrote: " I'm not saying he can't keep his #1 spot, but the weights are certainly heavily tipped both against him and in fantasy's favor right now."
I agree with this, particularly since you were saying that
"Why should he have to beat Jaedong in two different tournaments while the zerg only has to beat fantasy in one and all his PL mistakes are forgiven?"
Personally, I want to see Fantasy and Jaedong split the OSL/MSL. Even if it means Calm loses.
On August 11 2009 01:23 Nylan wrote: Personally, I want to see Fantasy and Jaedong split the OSL/MSL. Even if it means Calm loses.
Agreed. It's funny but on paper last season's OSL and (much maligned) MSL look much better than the possible combinations this time around. Hoping for OSL: fantasy > YellOw[ArnC] MSL: Jaedong > Iris
Both sides have three zerg and one terran remaining. The finals will wrap up this month, no? If things happen as I suggest, then fantasy will jump Jaedong in the rankings, unless Jaedong absolutely lays waste to the MSL and fantasy wins by some strange luck.
Bisu will undoubtedly drop, EffOrt will undoubtedly drop, Only really impressive play from both of these players in WCG/STX would give them enough of a case to keep their spots. The offseason is a tricky time.
On August 11 2009 04:27 Karmosin wrote: A few weeks after, this PR seems really off.. SC is a weird game..
That's because the level of the gosus are so close. It's not like it used to be, with one guy dominating the scene for months at a time, like Savior or Oov.
that's because Flash has been farming weaker players for ELO points
(not completely true but JwaJa was completely outclassed and was basically free points)
(he hasn't done much though in terms of facing top-tier players recently either, although he's been quite successful with butchering his way through GOM and racking up the wins there)
(grats on giving rabid Flash fans another statistic to throw around though)
Farming for points LOL It's not like flash chooses who he plays against and every player goes up against weaker players all the time. It's kind of hard to avoid when you are a really good player like Flash or Jaedong and play many games in proleague and in individual leagues. I thought flash is 3rd and Jaedong was 1st in ELo.
I know all these things and it's clear that Flash isn't actually trying to game any ELO system at all - I just thought that the concept of a progamer farming for ELO was funny
(there *are* free ELO points though, depending on your definition of "free" and the game/ELO system, a degree of artificial rank inflation is certainly possible if you actually try)
On August 11 2009 09:00 Avidkeystamper wrote: Well, if you define "free" in such a way such that there are "free" ELO points, then there are obviously "free" ELO points.
This is the truest statement I have read in weeks.
On August 11 2009 08:21 scrubtastic wrote: that's because Flash has been farming weaker players for ELO points
(not completely true but JwaJa was completely outclassed and was basically free points)
It's Flash's fault that he completely outclasses JwaJa, and I'm glad we both agree that this should count against Flash.
(he hasn't done much though in terms of facing top-tier players recently either, although he's been quite successful with butchering his way through GOM and racking up the wins there)
It's Flash's fault that Jaedong/Effort dropped out of GOM! It's also Flash's fault that his TvT is 70% and that he's the favorite over Iris! We're in complete agreement, my friend.
Damn that Flash, always trying to dodge fighting strong players! NOT CLOSE AND NO CIGAR for Flash next month for failing to get Jaedong to the GOM finals and for not being 4 people so KT could win games. He can have #10 if he 3-0s Iris and all-kills eSTRO, KHAN, CJ, hite, Oz, T1, and STX, maybe. But only if he plays perfectly every game while he does it.
He also needs to not only be #1 ELO, but be #1 ELO by at least 200 points.
On August 11 2009 09:00 Avidkeystamper wrote: Well, if you define "free" in such a way such that there are "free" ELO points, then there are obviously "free" ELO points.
thank you for both stating the obvious and contributing nothing to the discussion
let me try this again
On August 11 2009 08:28 Avidkeystamper wrote: There are no free ELO points.
you made this absolute statement here
I disagree with this absolute statement
this is based on the fact that depending on the ELO system, and the game which the system is centered around, if you try and game the system, you can gain more points that you would otherwise not gain if you were playing "normally"
Actually I will make the argument that Flash's high ELO ranking fails somewhat to be representative of where his true skill lies right now. I say this as a long-time Flash fan: he's always been great at rolling over inferior players with extraordinary consistency in every matchup (much more so than Jaedong, Fantasy, or Bisu), but this year he's just not been holding 50% against fellow S-class players. Flash is a player who prioritizes proleague over everything else, and because of his capacity to always win against weak players, he gets a nice ELO cushion from that. Then he gets eliminated from an individual league, and his ELO drops a bit because losses from a good player don't count too much against him. Note that proleague happens all the time, while dropping out of a league can only be done once per league.
Flash's pattern of play (roll proleague with amazing consistency, occasionally drop a league to a high-ELO player) gives him a very high ELO which always seems to be at odds with his performances against other top players (Stork, Jangbi, Kal, Calm, Jaedong, Yarnc, Bisu...). There are no free ELO points, it's true --- but in Flash's case he's just so damn consistent against players below a certain level that those points might as well be free.
Jaedong is more of a roller coaster. He'll win series 2-1 against scrubs, which actually hurt his ELO. He'll drop games to players like Orion and Hyuk. His ELO fluctuates more, I think.
On August 11 2009 10:07 Djabanete wrote: Flash's pattern of play (roll proleague with amazing consistency, occasionally drop a league to a high-ELO player) gives him a very high ELO which always seems to be at odds with his performances against other top players (Stork, Jangbi, Kal, Calm, Jaedong, Yarnc, Bisu...). There are no free ELO points, it's true --- but in Flash's case he's just so damn consistent against players below a certain level that those points might as well be free.
Jaedong is more of a roller coaster. He'll win series 2-1 against scrubs, which actually hurt his ELO. He'll drop games to players like Orion and Hyuk. His ELO fluctuates more, I think.
All speculation, of course
ELO is quantitative, but it isn't everything.
Let's say you had two players.
Player 1:
Wins against B-class players 95% of the time. Wins against S-class players 50% of the time.
Player 2:
Wins against B-class players 75% of the time. Wins against S-class players 60% of the time.
It's just a matter of opinion which player is 'better'. Player 1 is a better all-around player, and Player 2 is a better Ace card. You can't look at this and objectively say that Player 2 is better than Player 1. ELO tries to split the difference, and how much you agree with it depends on which 'Player' here you think is preferable.
Alright, basically yes it is possible to abuse ELO the same way it's possible to abuse any ladder system. Though this has nothing to do with Flash, since he doesn't control who he plays against.
On the other hand, avid's just trolling you. And quite well too!
On August 11 2009 10:03 Avidkeystamper wrote: So we're both basically blowing empty air since you basically said nothing like I have.
I'm not going to write out "ELO System Exploitation 101" for you, if you care enough you can look it up in your own time
in either case I think I made my point successfully, and your "no free ELO points" is not an absolute despite your continued insistence
You haven't even defined what you mean by "free". I haven't either. Therefore, you must be right.
Are we serious? Is this even an argument?
Look, Flash has a high ELO in part because he has not had to face the challenges that other players have had to contend with. He's had an easier time getting those points against JwaJa than he would've against Jaedong. It's pretty simple.
I think Flash is exactly what some people have suggested; one of starcraft's most consistent performers, but not as sexy a player because he relies on rock-solid mechanics as opposed to speed, and surprise. He's not as strong an ace as JD, Bisu, EffOrt, or fantasy. That's why he doesn't perform as his dominant proleague should suggest in starleagues.
On August 11 2009 11:20 tree.hugger wrote: I think Flash is exactly what some people have suggested; one of starcraft's most consistent performers, but not as sexy a player because he relies on rock-solid mechanics as opposed to speed, and surprise. He's not as strong an ace as JD, Bisu, EffOrt, or fantasy.
Really? I would say Bisu was at least a little bit surprised when Flash cheesed him out from Daum OSL...maybe even more than a little bit after their game on Monty Hall. Maybe even more than JD, when Flash kicked him out from OSL and GSI in span of couple days, when half of their games weren't exactly standard. Speaking about OSL, Flash and cheese, I bet Effort would like to say something too. It's also possible that fantasy wasn't surprised when his double CC got hit by Flash 2-fac in their latest match, but he certainly didn't seem to expect it either.
Say what you will about Flash failings for whatever reason, that's all well and good conjecture, but never ever say Flash wins because of his mechanics. It exposes you as some clueless person who basically makes stuff up. He's not as sexy of a player because he's so smart that the average person doesn't understand why he wins.
In other news, Fantasy is amazingly awesome. I'm really excited to see the builds he'll use vs Jaedong and the winning Sparkyz.
Also, Fantasy pulled one amazing TvZ comeback (a game that Jaedong really really should have won, as his coach alluded to that in the interview) and one brilliant build, invented by Boxer, that literally any pro Terran could have pulled off given JD's response. I agree that Fantasy is better in TvZ (because you're always scared of what he'll do) but just a week ago people still weren't that sure how good Fantasy's TvZ was because he loses to bad players sometimes and his bio control is still not great for a player of his class (and it wasn't that good against JD on Outsider either, which is part of the reason why JD got a huge lead and even infested a CC at one point...).
Tired of this "fantasy just executes builds that better tacticians come up with" line. Fantasy is by all accounts an excellent tactician in his own right and he has the control to pull of so many strategies. It's disingenuous to suggest that any Terran could've pulled off that build, because that doesn't explain why fantasy is SKT1's #1. Why not Canata? Why not Mong? If fantasy is some mindless robot, then why is he so much better than any other SKT1 Terran? Why is he the best Terran in the game right now?
I've always always always been a defender of Fantasy when people say BS like "without oov Fantasy would be nothing". All I'm saying here is that any Terran could have pulled off this particular build, and I'm right - Fantasy even said as much himself in the post-game interview. Of course, if a lesser Terran had faced Jaedong, he probably would have expected something like this more and made it harder to pull off, which is part of the joy of being Fantasy.
Also for all the people saying stuff like "yeah Flash's ELO is high because he doesn't play that much" remember this guy at least got into RO16 of all three leagues. It's true that making RO8 would have probably hurt his ELO in the end but many other players on the PR only played 1 or 2 out of the 3 leagues so they benefit from this even more.
Of course, Flash got WAY more points than he should have for beating Jwaja because of the way ELO treats unknown players. Regardless, Ver said it best -
On August 11 2009 18:20 Ver wrote: He's not as sexy of a player because he's so smart that the average person doesn't understand why he wins.
Somewhere somehow Flash got lumped into the Bisu/Jaedong boat of SUPER fast players, when he's always been a mid to high speed Terran (I'm not sure Flash is even faster than Nada actually). Flash's brilliance has manifested itself in his ability to beat, and in some cases dominate, the pro scene with his average speed (and average mechanics - his macro is good but only because he trades off other parts of his game to do it late game, he just doesn't do it as retardedly as say Best). In this specific sense, ironically enough, Flash is the true Savior 2.0.
Also, Fantasy pulled one amazing TvZ comeback (a game that Jaedong really really should have won, as his coach alluded to that in the interview) and one brilliant build, invented by Boxer, that literally any pro Terran could have pulled off given JD's response. I agree that Fantasy is better in TvZ (because you're always scared of what he'll do) but just a week ago people still weren't that sure how good Fantasy's TvZ was because he loses to bad players sometimes and his bio control is still not great for a player of his class (and it wasn't that good against JD on Outsider either, which is part of the reason why JD got a huge lead and even infested a CC at one point...).
Tired of this "fantasy just executes builds that better tacticians come up with" line. Fantasy is by all accounts an excellent tactician in his own right and he has the control to pull of so many strategies. It's disingenuous to suggest that any Terran could've pulled off that build, because that doesn't explain why fantasy is SKT1's #1. Why not Canata? Why not Mong? If fantasy is some mindless robot, then why is he so much better than any other SKT1 Terran? Why is he the best Terran in the game right now?
I've always always always been a defender of Fantasy when people say BS like "without oov Fantasy would be nothing". All I'm saying here is that any Terran could have pulled off this particular build, and I'm right - Fantasy even said as much himself in the post-game interview. Of course, if a lesser Terran had faced Jaedong, he probably would have expected something like this more and made it harder to pull off, which is part of the joy of being Fantasy.
Also for all the people saying stuff like "yeah Flash's ELO is high because he doesn't play that much" remember this guy at least got into RO16 of all three leagues. It's true that making RO8 would have probably hurt his ELO in the end but many other players on the PR only played 1 or 2 out of the 3 leagues so they benefit from this even more.
Of course, Flash got WAY more points than he should have for beating Jwaja because of the way ELO treats unknown players. Regardless, Ver said it best -
On August 11 2009 18:20 Ver wrote: He's not as sexy of a player because he's so smart that the average person doesn't understand why he wins.
Somewhere somehow Flash got lumped into the Bisu/Jaedong boat of SUPER fast players, when he's always been a mid to high speed Terran (I'm not sure Flash is even faster than Nada actually). Flash's brilliance has manifested itself in his ability to beat, and in some cases dominate, the pro scene with his average speed (and average mechanics - his macro is good but only because he trades off other parts of his game to do it late game, he just doesn't do it as retardedly as say Best). In this specific sense, ironically enough, Flash is the true Savior 2.0.
Flash might not be the fastest, but his mechanics are pretty amazing. His multitasking is great, you can see it in his FPVODs. I definitely wouldn't say he has "average" mechanics; rather I'd say he has extraordinary mechanics with an ordinary APM. I'm sure there's a positive correlation between speed and mechanics but they're not at all the same thing.
Flash's apm is only 'ordinary' in so much as he plays Terran. He's probably as fast as Bisu and a little slower than Jaedong, it's just less than or equal to doesn't cut it as terran.
On August 12 2009 12:12 TwoToneTerran wrote: Flash's apm is only 'ordinary' in so much as he plays Terran. He's probably as fast as Bisu and a little slower than Jaedong, it's just less than or equal to doesn't cut it as terran.
what? he's just slumping. his apm hasn't changed from what it was in past years when he was utterly dominating everyone in his path including both the players you mentioned.
On August 12 2009 12:12 TwoToneTerran wrote: Flash's apm is only 'ordinary' in so much as he plays Terran. He's probably as fast as Bisu and a little slower than Jaedong, it's just less than or equal to doesn't cut it as terran.
what? he's just slumping. his apm hasn't changed from what it was in past years when he was utterly dominating everyone in his path including both the players you mentioned.
We're not talking about flash's non-existant slump. We're talking about his mechanics, which includes his APM. Some people are saying, APMwise, he's weaker than other S-Class players and ordinary for a top tier player, but he's actually as fast as most top tier Zs and Ps, just mediocre for a Terran.
On August 12 2009 12:12 TwoToneTerran wrote: Flash's apm is only 'ordinary' in so much as he plays Terran. He's probably as fast as Bisu and a little slower than Jaedong, it's just less than or equal to doesn't cut it as terran.
what? he's just slumping. his apm hasn't changed from what it was in past years when he was utterly dominating everyone in his path including both the players you mentioned.
At his peak, he never dominated Jaedong. He went 5-5 against him during that period on a map pool that included zodiac, troy and baekmagoji.
and since then, jaedong really has dominated flash in head to head play
On August 12 2009 12:12 TwoToneTerran wrote: Flash's apm is only 'ordinary' in so much as he plays Terran. He's probably as fast as Bisu and a little slower than Jaedong, it's just less than or equal to doesn't cut it as terran.
what? he's just slumping. his apm hasn't changed from what it was in past years when he was utterly dominating everyone in his path including both the players you mentioned.
At his peak, he never dominated Jaedong. He went 5-5 against him during that period on a map pool that included zodiac, troy and baekmagoji.
and since then, jaedong really has dominated flash in head to head play
I love how you "forget" to mention that the map pool also included Blue Storm and Fantasy II, the former being played twice.
Only time when JD truly dominated Flash was the infamous GOM final. Since then, he got for example kicked out of MSL by him. You're not exactly dominating someone if he kicked you out of the second most important individual league, are you?
On August 12 2009 12:12 TwoToneTerran wrote: Flash's apm is only 'ordinary' in so much as he plays Terran. He's probably as fast as Bisu and a little slower than Jaedong, it's just less than or equal to doesn't cut it as terran.
what? he's just slumping. his apm hasn't changed from what it was in past years when he was utterly dominating everyone in his path including both the players you mentioned.
At his peak, he never dominated Jaedong. He went 5-5 against him during that period on a map pool that included zodiac, troy and baekmagoji.
and since then, jaedong really has dominated flash in head to head play
I love how you "forget" to mention that the map pool also included Blue Storm and Fantasy II, the former being played twice.
Only time when JD truly dominated Flash was the infamous GOM final. Since then, he got for example kicked out of MSL by him. You're not exactly dominating someone if he kicked you out of the second most important individual league, are you?
I'll give you fantasy, but if I had mentioned blue storm I would have had to mention loki as well. :|
and 7-2 overall and a 3-0 in the only boX they played looks pretty dominant to me.
BoX? You mean Bo5, right? Because BoX includes Bo1, Bo3, etc. It's kind of what variables do.
I mean other than that I think Flash has more series up on jaedong including Bo3s. But when you include stuff like group stages, proleague, winner's league, jd comes ahead.
On August 12 2009 12:12 TwoToneTerran wrote: Flash's apm is only 'ordinary' in so much as he plays Terran. He's probably as fast as Bisu and a little slower than Jaedong, it's just less than or equal to doesn't cut it as terran.
what? he's just slumping. his apm hasn't changed from what it was in past years when he was utterly dominating everyone in his path including both the players you mentioned.
At his peak, he never dominated Jaedong. He went 5-5 against him during that period on a map pool that included zodiac, troy and baekmagoji.
and since then, jaedong really has dominated flash in head to head play
I love how you "forget" to mention that the map pool also included Blue Storm and Fantasy II, the former being played twice.
Only time when JD truly dominated Flash was the infamous GOM final. Since then, he got for example kicked out of MSL by him. You're not exactly dominating someone if he kicked you out of the second most important individual league, are you?
I'll give you fantasy, but if I had mentioned blue storm I would have had to mention loki as well. :|
and 7-2 overall and a 3-0 in the only boX they played looks pretty dominant to me.
Well, Loki II was played only once, so it's still just 4:3 in terms of bad maps.
And I already agreed that there was time where Flash got trashed by JD pretty hard. I just protested against the last sentence of your original post. No way JD dominated Flash "sice then".
It's always easier to get a higher winning percentage when the total number of games you've played is signficantly less. For example, Calm has 44-19 (69.84%) but a new player who has just played 4 games that managed to win 3 of them can have (75%) much higher than what Calm has. So if Calm plays as many games as JD, his percentage will even out
It's always easier to get a higher winning percentage when the total number of games you've played is signficantly less. For example, Calm has 44-19 (69.84%) but a new player who has just played 4 games that managed to win 3 of them can have (75%) much higher than what Calm has. So if Calm plays as many games as JD, his percentage will even out
it's not just the number of games, it's also the strength of the players. a lot of calm's wins are against like IsaC and M18M in qualifiers and stuff
Neither does yours, troll. JD is falling fast, he's gotta do more than just trounce Fantasy at this point, objectively speaking. Provide some useful input or shut up.
It's always easier to get a higher winning percentage when the total number of games you've played is signficantly less. For example, Calm has 44-19 (69.84%) but a new player who has just played 4 games that managed to win 3 of them can have (75%) much higher than what Calm has. So if Calm plays as many games as JD, his percentage will even out
it's not just the number of games, it's also the strength of the players. a lot of calm's wins are against like IsaC and M18M in qualifiers and stuff
He raped Effort and Jeadong in Bo5 man While Jeadong has to face strong opponent such as Orion and Hyuk right?
Neither does yours, troll. JD is falling fast, he's gotta do more than just trounce Fantasy at this point, objectively speaking. Provide some useful input or shut up.
Please refrain from raging in a PR thread. Whatever "reasoning" you give or not, you won't impact the next PR because you won't be making it. Truth hurts
Neither does yours, troll. JD is falling fast, he's gotta do more than just trounce Fantasy at this point, objectively speaking. Provide some useful input or shut up.
Please refrain from raging in a PR thread. Whatever "reasoning" you give or not, you won't impact the next PR because you won't be making it. Truth hurts
It's always easier to get a higher winning percentage when the total number of games you've played is signficantly less. For example, Calm has 44-19 (69.84%) but a new player who has just played 4 games that managed to win 3 of them can have (75%) much higher than what Calm has. So if Calm plays as many games as JD, his percentage will even out
it's not just the number of games, it's also the strength of the players. a lot of calm's wins are against like IsaC and M18M in qualifiers and stuff
He raped Effort and Jeadong in Bo5 man While Jeadong has to face strong opponent such as Orion and Hyuk right?
Your reasoning doesn't work because JD lost to Orion and Hyuk. The guy you quoted was talking about how much better quality opponents were counted in JD's wins over Calm's wins
all i meant was through 2009. the person said calm has a better win percentage than JD in 2009. calm is now 6-1 in these two series against effort and jaedong and it's really incredible, no question. but jd has also played 8 games against fantasy in 2009 (calm: 1), 7 against bisu (calm: 1), 7 against effort (calm: 3), 6 against canata (calm: 1), 4 against yarnc (calm: 1), 4 against skyhigh (calm: 1), 3 against kal (calm: 0), 3 against leta (calm: 1), and 3 against luxury (calm: 1). calm has a lot of qualifier series against like han, young, IsaC, M18M, go.go, hungry, etc. by comparison. just something to consider when you're looking at win percentage.
On August 14 2009 00:28 o[twist] wrote: all i meant was through 2009. the person said calm has a better win percentage than JD in 2009. calm is now 6-1 in these two series against effort and jaedong and it's really incredible, no question. but jd has also played 8 games against fantasy in 2009 (calm: 1), 7 against bisu (calm: 1), 7 against effort (calm: 3), 6 against canata (calm: 1), 4 against yarnc (calm: 1), 4 against skyhigh (calm: 1), 3 against kal (calm: 0), 3 against leta (calm: 1), and 3 against luxury (calm: 1). calm has a lot of qualifier series against like han, young, IsaC, M18M, go.go, hungry, etc. by comparison. just something to consider when you're looking at win percentage.
TLPD win/loss counts ignore games from preliminary offlines and such. It doesn't even count the GSL I think.
Neither does yours, troll. JD is falling fast, he's gotta do more than just trounce Fantasy at this point, objectively speaking. Provide some useful input or shut up.
Please refrain from raging in a PR thread. Whatever "reasoning" you give or not, you won't impact the next PR because you won't be making it. Truth hurts
Yeah, that was my exact thought.
Just ignore AzureEye, he pertains to that group of people that always posts in PR but only does so because he likes pissing people off.
On August 14 2009 00:28 o[twist] wrote: all i meant was through 2009. the person said calm has a better win percentage than JD in 2009. calm is now 6-1 in these two series against effort and jaedong and it's really incredible, no question. but jd has also played 8 games against fantasy in 2009 (calm: 1), 7 against bisu (calm: 1), 7 against effort (calm: 3), 6 against canata (calm: 1), 4 against yarnc (calm: 1), 4 against skyhigh (calm: 1), 3 against kal (calm: 0), 3 against leta (calm: 1), and 3 against luxury (calm: 1). calm has a lot of qualifier series against like han, young, IsaC, M18M, go.go, hungry, etc. by comparison. just something to consider when you're looking at win percentage.
TLPD win/loss counts ignore games from preliminary offlines and such. It doesn't even count the GSL I think.
TLPD does not count offline quals, but it does (for the moment at least) count all of the GOMS except GSI. That's why Flash is getting a huge boost in ELO from not losing in GOM S3 so far, even when he was failing near the end of proleague regular season + RO16 of OSL and MSL.
(actually it might count GSI... not sure about that... it was an invitational tournament, and those are usually never counted though).
On August 14 2009 00:28 o[twist] wrote: all i meant was through 2009. the person said calm has a better win percentage than JD in 2009. calm is now 6-1 in these two series against effort and jaedong and it's really incredible, no question. but jd has also played 8 games against fantasy in 2009 (calm: 1), 7 against bisu (calm: 1), 7 against effort (calm: 3), 6 against canata (calm: 1), 4 against yarnc (calm: 1), 4 against skyhigh (calm: 1), 3 against kal (calm: 0), 3 against leta (calm: 1), and 3 against luxury (calm: 1). calm has a lot of qualifier series against like han, young, IsaC, M18M, go.go, hungry, etc. by comparison. just something to consider when you're looking at win percentage.
TLPD win/loss counts ignore games from preliminary offlines and such. It doesn't even count the GSL I think.
TLPD does not count offline quals, but it does (for the moment at least) count all of the GOMS except GSI. That's why Flash is getting a huge boost in ELO from not losing in GOM S3 so far, even when he was failing near the end of proleague regular season + RO16 of OSL and MSL.
(actually it might count GSI... not sure about that... it was an invitational tournament, and those are usually never counted though).
On August 14 2009 03:03 okum wrote: There's the possibility that Jaedong only lost because he's been practicing 24/7 for Fantasy.
Though you'd expect him to beat Calm in his sleep, without practice. Maybe that's what Jaedong thought, and suffered accordingly.
There is a lot of reasoning that can be made behind that statement, of course (JD wants a Golden Mouse more than a MSL title, wants revenge on Fantasy more than to beat Calm, hence has been practicing only ZvT, he underestimated Calm, etc. etc.). However the fact remains that this is all speculation and Jaedong lost 3-1 to a rather convincingly powerful Calm, and that now Calm is above Jaedong in ELO.
On August 14 2009 03:03 okum wrote: There's the possibility that Jaedong only lost because he's been practicing 24/7 for Fantasy.
Though you'd expect him to beat Calm in his sleep, without practice. Maybe that's what Jaedong thought, and suffered accordingly.
There is a lot of reasoning that can be made behind that statement, of course (JD wants a Golden Mouse more than a MSL title, wants revenge on Fantasy more than to beat Calm, hence has been practicing only ZvT, he underestimated Calm, etc. etc.). However the fact remains that this is all speculation and Jaedong lost 3-1 to a rather convincingly powerful Calm, and that now Calm is above Jaedong in ELO.
Absolutely. Calm deserves all the praise he's receiving.
right now im just hoping JD can buckle down, focus, and at least get his Golden Mouse. That should ease the obvious disappointment he must feel after the PL finals, and now after the MSL.
Id be so sad to see him get so far in both leagues, while taking his team to the finals, and not walk away without at least one title. he can salvage his ZvZ win ratio after he takes down fantasy.
I see JD around No.3, behind Calm and Fantasy. Maybe behind Bisu but that's going to be hard to justify. Though ofc, OSL finals are this month, so it's too soon to talk about.
I do think it's cool that Flash is #1 in ELO at the time of this post, even though he hasn't played a meaningful game since the middle of July. He doesn't even play a game and he's number one!
I'm sure that will change tonight when Jaedong vs. Fantasy happens.
On August 14 2009 05:22 iamho wrote: funny how people are already demanding certain players in certain ranks when the month is only half over
tbh there's almost nothing left to factor in: if I count right we've got 2 semifinals, 3 finals... and then Blizzcon, Masters, and WCG. So basically there's a max of 25 games that "really matter" (20 if you don't like GOM) between a total of 7 players. It's not actually that funny.
On August 14 2009 05:22 iamho wrote: funny how people are already demanding certain players in certain ranks when the month is only half over
tbh there's almost nothing left to factor in: if I count right we've got 2 semifinals, 3 finals... and then Blizzcon, Masters, and WCG. So basically there's a max of 25 games that "really matter" (20 if you don't like GOM) between a total of 7 players. It's not actually that funny.
lol yeah all you have is the finals of all the individual leagues... they shouldn't matter in determining the ranking
if iris wins either series he should be in the top 5 imo
On August 14 2009 03:03 okum wrote: There's the possibility that Jaedong only lost because he's been practicing 24/7 for Fantasy.
Though you'd expect him to beat Calm in his sleep, without practice. Maybe that's what Jaedong thought, and suffered accordingly.
Uh no, Calm is an insanely good player. Before he beat Jaedong, he defeated zero (which isn't too astounding) and Effort (which is). Of course it's a bit ridiculous to have the semifinals of both leagues on consecutive days. But it's not like Jaedong is way ahead of the opposition, he is only slightly better at micro and is very good at utilizing his advantage for maximum effect.
I'm glad Jaedong got revenge for fantasy's bunker rush in PL!
Assuming Jaedong wins OSL vs Yarnc (not a sure bet with how mortal JD looks in ZvZ recently), next rank might come down to STX Masters games, as weird as that is.
On August 14 2009 07:31 Severedevil wrote: I figure that whoever wins OSL Semi-Final B gets to claim the "Best Player" award, and whoever wins MSL gets their official promotion to S-class.
yeah and whoever wins GOM final will MAYBE get a place in next PR
WOW this is going to be a tough Power ranking for JWD. On the one hand, Jaedong manhandled (exaggeration, but it's necessary to make the contrast apparent) Fantasy, to whom he lost TWICE in two days. They're both 3-3 against each other in the last month with jaedong's wins remaining in our memory a little more. Nevertheless, fantasy's wins helped skt1 WIN the proleague this year.
Jaedong may win the OSL, which has historically weighed more in determining the power ranking, and calm may win the MSL after destroying jaedong. Who'd get the higher position then?
Personally, I'd place jaedong above calm, despite losing to him, because he had the number 1 position on this power ranking.
Then again, yellow[arnc]'s been doing extremely well, and if he beats jaedong in the finals of the OSL (in any fashion) that will be been two bo5s that jaedong's lost in what used to be his best matchup, and one in which he had not lost a single bo5. Would yellow go above calm or vice versa? And where would jaedong go?
Flash should definitely go to the power ranking next month, but who's spot will he take? It's a rather slow month if you're not in any starleagues, and wcg korea doesn't really matter that much.
I think, if Jaedong wins the OSL overall (he should), he should probably take the #1 spot. If this happens, they kind of break even, with a tie betwixt them, Fantasy kicking Jaedong out of PL and Jaedong kicking Fantasy out of OSL (again!). But I think there's something special to say about a Golden Mouse before the kid turns 20, and that something special should be a #1.
BUT, if the rank went up RIGHT now with Fantasy at #1 and Jaedong at #2, I wouldn't bat an eyelash. I wouldn't necessarily agree, but Fantasy played out of this world too.
Also the loss to Calm shouldn't be put against him, I think. The guy had two semifinals, and from last night's game, it's OBVIOUS what he prioritized, and he prioritized damn well.
On August 15 2009 00:20 TwoToneTerran wrote: I think, if Jaedong wins the OSL overall (he should), he should probably take the #1 spot. If this happens, they kind of break even, with a tie betwixt them, Fantasy kicking Jaedong out of PL and Jaedong kicking Fantasy out of OSL (again!). But I think there's something special to say about a Golden Mouse before the kid turns 20, and that something special should be a #1.
BUT, if the rank went up RIGHT now with Fantasy at #1 and Jaedong at #2, I wouldn't bat an eyelash. I wouldn't necessarily agree, but Fantasy played out of this world too.
Also the loss to Calm shouldn't be put against him, I think. The guy had two semifinals, and from last night's game, it's OBVIOUS what he prioritized, and he prioritized damn well.
Retarded excuse, Calm straight up outclassed him, there's no way that can't be put against him no matter how tiring his schedule. It's also interesting to note that if you exclude WCG, then Jaedong can't get higher than a 50% win percentage this month.
On August 15 2009 00:20 TwoToneTerran wrote: I think, if Jaedong wins the OSL overall (he should), he should probably take the #1 spot. If this happens, they kind of break even, with a tie betwixt them, Fantasy kicking Jaedong out of PL and Jaedong kicking Fantasy out of OSL (again!). But I think there's something special to say about a Golden Mouse before the kid turns 20, and that something special should be a #1.
BUT, if the rank went up RIGHT now with Fantasy at #1 and Jaedong at #2, I wouldn't bat an eyelash. I wouldn't necessarily agree, but Fantasy played out of this world too.
Also the loss to Calm shouldn't be put against him, I think. The guy had two semifinals, and from last night's game, it's OBVIOUS what he prioritized, and he prioritized damn well.
Retarded excuse, Calm straight up outclassed him, there's no way that can't be put against him no matter how tiring his schedule. It's also interesting to note that if you exclude WCG, then Jaedong can't get higher than a 50% win percentage this month.
there's no way calm above jaedong can be justified if he wins back to back osls and a golden mouse this month
On August 15 2009 00:20 TwoToneTerran wrote: I think, if Jaedong wins the OSL overall (he should), he should probably take the #1 spot. If this happens, they kind of break even, with a tie betwixt them, Fantasy kicking Jaedong out of PL and Jaedong kicking Fantasy out of OSL (again!). But I think there's something special to say about a Golden Mouse before the kid turns 20, and that something special should be a #1.
BUT, if the rank went up RIGHT now with Fantasy at #1 and Jaedong at #2, I wouldn't bat an eyelash. I wouldn't necessarily agree, but Fantasy played out of this world too.
Also the loss to Calm shouldn't be put against him, I think. The guy had two semifinals, and from last night's game, it's OBVIOUS what he prioritized, and he prioritized damn well.
Retarded excuse, Calm straight up outclassed him, there's no way that can't be put against him no matter how tiring his schedule. It's also interesting to note that if you exclude WCG, then Jaedong can't get higher than a 50% win percentage this month.
there's no way calm above jaedong can be justified if he wins back to back osls and a golden mouse this month
Did you see anything about Calm's placement in my post?
On August 15 2009 00:20 TwoToneTerran wrote: I think, if Jaedong wins the OSL overall (he should), he should probably take the #1 spot. If this happens, they kind of break even, with a tie betwixt them, Fantasy kicking Jaedong out of PL and Jaedong kicking Fantasy out of OSL (again!). But I think there's something special to say about a Golden Mouse before the kid turns 20, and that something special should be a #1.
BUT, if the rank went up RIGHT now with Fantasy at #1 and Jaedong at #2, I wouldn't bat an eyelash. I wouldn't necessarily agree, but Fantasy played out of this world too.
Also the loss to Calm shouldn't be put against him, I think. The guy had two semifinals, and from last night's game, it's OBVIOUS what he prioritized, and he prioritized damn well.
Retarded excuse, Calm straight up outclassed him, there's no way that can't be put against him no matter how tiring his schedule. It's also interesting to note that if you exclude WCG, then Jaedong can't get higher than a 50% win percentage this month.
there's no way calm above jaedong can be justified if he wins back to back osls and a golden mouse this month
Did you see anything about Calm's placement in my post?
so how should jaedong's placement be affected then? below iris if iris takes kwanro and one of the titles? actually, there might be some argument for that
On August 15 2009 00:20 TwoToneTerran wrote: I think, if Jaedong wins the OSL overall (he should), he should probably take the #1 spot. If this happens, they kind of break even, with a tie betwixt them, Fantasy kicking Jaedong out of PL and Jaedong kicking Fantasy out of OSL (again!). But I think there's something special to say about a Golden Mouse before the kid turns 20, and that something special should be a #1.
BUT, if the rank went up RIGHT now with Fantasy at #1 and Jaedong at #2, I wouldn't bat an eyelash. I wouldn't necessarily agree, but Fantasy played out of this world too.
Also the loss to Calm shouldn't be put against him, I think. The guy had two semifinals, and from last night's game, it's OBVIOUS what he prioritized, and he prioritized damn well.
Retarded excuse, Calm straight up outclassed him, there's no way that can't be put against him no matter how tiring his schedule. It's also interesting to note that if you exclude WCG, then Jaedong can't get higher than a 50% win percentage this month.
You're the kind of guy who said Stork shouldn't have gotten #1 when he won his OSL because he lost to Kal in MSL, aren't you?
On August 15 2009 00:20 TwoToneTerran wrote: I think, if Jaedong wins the OSL overall (he should), he should probably take the #1 spot. If this happens, they kind of break even, with a tie betwixt them, Fantasy kicking Jaedong out of PL and Jaedong kicking Fantasy out of OSL (again!). But I think there's something special to say about a Golden Mouse before the kid turns 20, and that something special should be a #1.
BUT, if the rank went up RIGHT now with Fantasy at #1 and Jaedong at #2, I wouldn't bat an eyelash. I wouldn't necessarily agree, but Fantasy played out of this world too.
Also the loss to Calm shouldn't be put against him, I think. The guy had two semifinals, and from last night's game, it's OBVIOUS what he prioritized, and he prioritized damn well.
Retarded excuse, Calm straight up outclassed him, there's no way that can't be put against him no matter how tiring his schedule. It's also interesting to note that if you exclude WCG, then Jaedong can't get higher than a 50% win percentage this month.
You're the kind of guy who said Stork shouldn't have gotten #1 when he won his OSL because he lost to Kal in MSL, aren't you?
Next power rank should be a tough nut to crack , but it this month still has a long way to go . Looks like every player has his sheer of dominance in one league and a poor performance in the other .
On August 15 2009 00:20 TwoToneTerran wrote: I think, if Jaedong wins the OSL overall (he should), he should probably take the #1 spot. If this happens, they kind of break even, with a tie betwixt them, Fantasy kicking Jaedong out of PL and Jaedong kicking Fantasy out of OSL (again!). But I think there's something special to say about a Golden Mouse before the kid turns 20, and that something special should be a #1.
BUT, if the rank went up RIGHT now with Fantasy at #1 and Jaedong at #2, I wouldn't bat an eyelash. I wouldn't necessarily agree, but Fantasy played out of this world too.
Also the loss to Calm shouldn't be put against him, I think. The guy had two semifinals, and from last night's game, it's OBVIOUS what he prioritized, and he prioritized damn well.
Retarded excuse, Calm straight up outclassed him, there's no way that can't be put against him no matter how tiring his schedule. It's also interesting to note that if you exclude WCG, then Jaedong can't get higher than a 50% win percentage this month.
there's no way calm above jaedong can be justified if he wins back to back osls and a golden mouse this month
it would be hillarious if JD gets the golded mouse but only 2nd or 3rd pr rank
On August 15 2009 00:20 TwoToneTerran wrote: I think, if Jaedong wins the OSL overall (he should), he should probably take the #1 spot. If this happens, they kind of break even, with a tie betwixt them, Fantasy kicking Jaedong out of PL and Jaedong kicking Fantasy out of OSL (again!). But I think there's something special to say about a Golden Mouse before the kid turns 20, and that something special should be a #1.
BUT, if the rank went up RIGHT now with Fantasy at #1 and Jaedong at #2, I wouldn't bat an eyelash. I wouldn't necessarily agree, but Fantasy played out of this world too.
Also the loss to Calm shouldn't be put against him, I think. The guy had two semifinals, and from last night's game, it's OBVIOUS what he prioritized, and he prioritized damn well.
Retarded excuse, Calm straight up outclassed him, there's no way that can't be put against him no matter how tiring his schedule. It's also interesting to note that if you exclude WCG, then Jaedong can't get higher than a 50% win percentage this month.
You're the kind of guy who said Stork shouldn't have gotten #1 when he won his OSL because he lost to Kal in MSL, aren't you?
False accusation is false. Consider the facts.
Um, it's an analogy, albeit a tongue in cheek one. Did you honestly expect Jaedong to push to the finals in both leagues at once? It's like when he dropped to Effort in GOM, though Calm definitely played very well. If Jaedong loses to Yarnc, then the boy had better drop a few places, but I for one will not fault him for sacrificing a tournament (that he made it to the semifinals anyhow) for one that is obviously much more important to him.
I'm not sure how you could stare a golden mouse, back to back OSL, and an absolutely incredible overall season so poorly, regardless of him not outright winning everything. The worst he did was only making it to GOM quarters, where he dropped it so he could advance in MSL and OSL. Now he gets to the semifinals of both and he makes an obvious choice in beating his toughest competition in Fantasy.
Fact is, Jaedong lost to Calm and Fantasy. Fact ALSO is that Jaedong beat Fantasy in Fantasy's proclaimed best type of series (How many people have said he's some monster bo5er?). I think it's fair enough to atleast mitigate his loss to Calm, seeing as he beat Fantasy in that spectacular series. It's not an outright waive of the loss, but it's certainly a good reason.
In all honesty, I think it comes down to how you rank the leagues. Jaedong has (or seems like he will) triumph in the OSL. Calm has (or, amusingly, seems like he will) triumph in the MSL. Fantasy proved himself in PL.
The only difference here is, while they all did well in their respective leagues, ONLY Jaedong did well in all of them while still remaining top dog in one. Calm was nowhere to be seen in OSL, and fumbled his PL games like Jaedong. Fantasy did very well in the OSL (comparatively to how well Jaedong did in the MSL), WON Proleague with 2 great wins, and did relatively poor in MSL. Jaedong's once a semifinalist(msl), and twice a finalist (PL and OSL). Throw in a respectable showing and GOM and it'd be daft to think Jaedong did anything other than put up monster results this season, regardless of dropping series in ZvZ in the weaker tourneys.
I wonder who the favourite will be if Calm meets Iris in the finals both have performed really well recently . Iris 3 - 0d effort in Gom . Would be an awsome final either way . Kwanro vs Calm thought .... i would better get me something to eat and drink while watching .
On August 15 2009 02:38 raga4ka wrote: Next power rank should be a tough nut to crack , but it this month still has a long way to go . Looks like every player has his sheer of dominance in one league and a poor performance in the other .
Totally agreed. You guys shouldn't call it so early, saying stuff like "whoever wins osl semi-final b should be first next power rank". The finals for all of the individual leagues (msl, osl, gom) haven't even been played yet, nor have most of the WCG Korea and Stx Masters Cup games (although these aren't as important). Only when you have the whole picture can you say something like "oh, Jaedong must have practiced extra hard for OSL, rather than MSL because he wanted to get revenge on Fantasy for his proleague cheese" or whatever. Right now, the tournaments are still ongoing with the most important matches yet to be played.
On August 15 2009 00:20 TwoToneTerran wrote: I think, if Jaedong wins the OSL overall (he should), he should probably take the #1 spot. If this happens, they kind of break even, with a tie betwixt them, Fantasy kicking Jaedong out of PL and Jaedong kicking Fantasy out of OSL (again!). But I think there's something special to say about a Golden Mouse before the kid turns 20, and that something special should be a #1.
BUT, if the rank went up RIGHT now with Fantasy at #1 and Jaedong at #2, I wouldn't bat an eyelash. I wouldn't necessarily agree, but Fantasy played out of this world too.
Also the loss to Calm shouldn't be put against him, I think. The guy had two semifinals, and from last night's game, it's OBVIOUS what he prioritized, and he prioritized damn well.
Retarded excuse, Calm straight up outclassed him, there's no way that can't be put against him no matter how tiring his schedule. It's also interesting to note that if you exclude WCG, then Jaedong can't get higher than a 50% win percentage this month.
You're the kind of guy who said Stork shouldn't have gotten #1 when he won his OSL because he lost to Kal in MSL, aren't you?
False accusation is false. Consider the facts.
Um, it's an analogy, albeit a tongue in cheek one. Did you honestly expect Jaedong to push to the finals in both leagues at once? It's like when he dropped to Effort in GOM, though Calm definitely played very well. If Jaedong loses to Yarnc, then the boy had better drop a few places, but I for one will not fault him for sacrificing a tournament (that he made it to the semifinals anyhow) for one that is obviously much more important to him.
I'm not sure how you could stare a golden mouse, back to back OSL, and an absolutely incredible overall season so poorly, regardless of him not outright winning everything. The worst he did was only making it to GOM quarters, where he dropped it so he could advance in MSL and OSL. Now he gets to the semifinals of both and he makes an obvious choice in beating his toughest competition in Fantasy.
Fact is, Jaedong lost to Calm and Fantasy. Fact ALSO is that Jaedong beat Fantasy in Fantasy's proclaimed best type of series (How many people have said he's some monster bo5er?). I think it's fair enough to atleast mitigate his loss to Calm, seeing as he beat Fantasy in that spectacular series. It's not an outright waive of the loss, but it's certainly a good reason.
In all honesty, I think it comes down to how you rank the leagues. Jaedong has (or seems like he will) triumph in the OSL. Calm has (or, amusingly, seems like he will) triumph in the MSL. Fantasy proved himself in PL.
The only difference here is, while they all did well in their respective leagues, ONLY Jaedong did well in all of them while still remaining top dog in one. Calm was nowhere to be seen in OSL, and fumbled his PL games like Jaedong. Fantasy did very well in the OSL (comparatively to how well Jaedong did in the MSL), WON Proleague with 2 great wins, and did relatively poor in MSL. Jaedong's once a semifinalist(msl), and twice a finalist (PL and OSL). Throw in a respectable showing and GOM and it'd be daft to think Jaedong did anything other than put up monster results this season, regardless of dropping series in ZvZ in the weaker tourneys.
Yes, not even Jaedong can handle every opponent, especially when his schedule is so jam packed. MSL semifinals one day, then the OSL semifinals less than 24 hours later? This kind of scheduling is really ridiculous. The fact that he got so far into every tournament is a testament to his vast skill and really amazing ability. If Jaedong managed to win all of them, he would have unquestionably been number 1 and perhaps the jaedong bonjwa threads would be justified. However, no one is that kind of super-human and to perform so well under all of this pressure is really laudable. Just read his interviews and you will see how tired he is, although you could probably guess from his schedule.
On August 15 2009 02:38 raga4ka wrote: Next power rank should be a tough nut to crack , but it this month still has a long way to go . Looks like every player has his sheer of dominance in one league and a poor performance in the other .
You guys shouldn't call it so early, saying stuff like "whoever wins osl semi-final b should be first next power rank".
I figure Jaedong and Fantasy are the two baddest mofos around, and that which of them is badder can reasonably be determined by their bo5 result.
On August 15 2009 02:38 raga4ka wrote: Next power rank should be a tough nut to crack , but it this month still has a long way to go . Looks like every player has his sheer of dominance in one league and a poor performance in the other .
You guys shouldn't call it so early, saying stuff like "whoever wins osl semi-final b should be first next power rank".
I figure Jaedong and Fantasy are the two baddest mofos around, and that which of them is badder can reasonably be determined by their bo5 result.
JD just raped Fantasy out of OSL, we can argue that Jaedong might be able to reclaim his #1 spot (or Calm/Bisu) if he shows more positive results but Fantasy should not since he is out of OSL, MSL, AND Gom.
On August 15 2009 00:20 TwoToneTerran wrote: I think, if Jaedong wins the OSL overall (he should), he should probably take the #1 spot. If this happens, they kind of break even, with a tie betwixt them, Fantasy kicking Jaedong out of PL and Jaedong kicking Fantasy out of OSL (again!). But I think there's something special to say about a Golden Mouse before the kid turns 20, and that something special should be a #1.
BUT, if the rank went up RIGHT now with Fantasy at #1 and Jaedong at #2, I wouldn't bat an eyelash. I wouldn't necessarily agree, but Fantasy played out of this world too.
Also the loss to Calm shouldn't be put against him, I think. The guy had two semifinals, and from last night's game, it's OBVIOUS what he prioritized, and he prioritized damn well.
Retarded excuse, Calm straight up outclassed him, there's no way that can't be put against him no matter how tiring his schedule. It's also interesting to note that if you exclude WCG, then Jaedong can't get higher than a 50% win percentage this month.
You're the kind of guy who said Stork shouldn't have gotten #1 when he won his OSL because he lost to Kal in MSL, aren't you?
False accusation is false. Consider the facts.
Um, it's an analogy, albeit a tongue in cheek one. Did you honestly expect Jaedong to push to the finals in both leagues at once? It's like when he dropped to Effort in GOM, though Calm definitely played very well. If Jaedong loses to Yarnc, then the boy had better drop a few places, but I for one will not fault him for sacrificing a tournament (that he made it to the semifinals anyhow) for one that is obviously much more important to him.
I'm not sure how you could stare a golden mouse, back to back OSL, and an absolutely incredible overall season so poorly, regardless of him not outright winning everything. The worst he did was only making it to GOM quarters, where he dropped it so he could advance in MSL and OSL. Now he gets to the semifinals of both and he makes an obvious choice in beating his toughest competition in Fantasy.
Fact is, Jaedong lost to Calm and Fantasy. Fact ALSO is that Jaedong beat Fantasy in Fantasy's proclaimed best type of series (How many people have said he's some monster bo5er?). I think it's fair enough to atleast mitigate his loss to Calm, seeing as he beat Fantasy in that spectacular series. It's not an outright waive of the loss, but it's certainly a good reason.
In all honesty, I think it comes down to how you rank the leagues. Jaedong has (or seems like he will) triumph in the OSL. Calm has (or, amusingly, seems like he will) triumph in the MSL. Fantasy proved himself in PL.
The only difference here is, while they all did well in their respective leagues, ONLY Jaedong did well in all of them while still remaining top dog in one. Calm was nowhere to be seen in OSL, and fumbled his PL games like Jaedong. Fantasy did very well in the OSL (comparatively to how well Jaedong did in the MSL), WON Proleague with 2 great wins, and did relatively poor in MSL. Jaedong's once a semifinalist(msl), and twice a finalist (PL and OSL). Throw in a respectable showing and GOM and it'd be daft to think Jaedong did anything other than put up monster results this season, regardless of dropping series in ZvZ in the weaker tourneys.
Yes, the weight of his losses should be lessened, but they should NOT be counted out or not considered balance-tipping. Calm's victory absolutely has to be counted against him to some extent, as it was not only indicative of his performance this month but it is a failing. Dropping out of a league has always been more likely to drop someone a rank than that person not being in a particular league - just look at Bisu right now. Those games were part of Jaedong's play this month, and as such have to be considered when judging JD's overall this performance this month. Even with the dampener that is scheduling, it can't just be considered a minor detail, it's what he's done this month. It being a ZvZ also mirrors your "Fantasy Bo5 King failure" argument.
I do agree that ranking the leagues has a lot to do with it as well, of course. My thoughts trend more towards the fact that not only is PL considered most important (according to many interviews...although not without argument), but it was the actual PL final, whereas this OSL match was only a semifinal and thus of lesser significance, something that cannot be ignored. Fantasy beat JD on the bigger stage by both of those criteria, so I think he's got the edge as of now.
Of course, there's still half a month to go, so yeah Jaedong has more opportunities to move up (and the golden mouse is a biggie). As it stands, however, he's not #1. No player with a 4-7 record should really be given such consideration.
I must also take issue with your analysis of how well each player did in the leagues though, as fantasy only fell to Bisu, who is not only one of the best players out there but also his teammate. You must also factor in the (relatively small) detail that the SKT players didn't have a shot at GOM, as small of a footnote as it may be.
Once again, we've still got half a month, so we'll see what happens.
Fantasy played in proleague with far more prep time than Jaedong. The Dong had to practice against both Bisu and Fantasy for every ace match; Fantasy knew which ace matches he would play and which player he'd be against. Further, Fantasy had a large expanse of free time to prepare sick vs. Z builds in the windup to Proleague Finals; Jaedong had more individual leagues and had to prepare vs. CJ. (Although JD should not have lost vs. Hyuk. That was stupid.)
With the advantages, Fantasy won handily. On an equal field, in a best of five, Jaedong won handily. As such, I view Jaedong's victory more favorably than Fantasy's.
Jaedong had to practice vs Calm too. Although if you read his interview, it didn't seem like he practiced too much for the MSL in comparison to the OSL.
On August 15 2009 03:57 TwoToneTerran wrote: I think Jaedong is the overall stronger player, but on any given day, Fantasy can snipe the crap right out of the Tyrant.
On August 15 2009 06:56 Avidkeystamper wrote: Jaedong had to practice vs Calm too. Although if you read his interview, it didn't seem like he practiced too much for the MSL in comparison to the OSL.
Of course. Not only is the OSL a more prestigious tournament, he has the chance to win a golden mouse. Then you have his desire for revenge for the proleague grand finals and you can see why he put way more effort into the osl semi-finals (although if he advanced vs calm, he probably would have won msl as well).
On August 15 2009 00:20 TwoToneTerran wrote: I think, if Jaedong wins the OSL overall (he should), he should probably take the #1 spot. If this happens, they kind of break even, with a tie betwixt them, Fantasy kicking Jaedong out of PL and Jaedong kicking Fantasy out of OSL (again!). But I think there's something special to say about a Golden Mouse before the kid turns 20, and that something special should be a #1.
BUT, if the rank went up RIGHT now with Fantasy at #1 and Jaedong at #2, I wouldn't bat an eyelash. I wouldn't necessarily agree, but Fantasy played out of this world too.
Also the loss to Calm shouldn't be put against him, I think. The guy had two semifinals, and from last night's game, it's OBVIOUS what he prioritized, and he prioritized damn well.
Retarded excuse, Calm straight up outclassed him, there's no way that can't be put against him no matter how tiring his schedule. It's also interesting to note that if you exclude WCG, then Jaedong can't get higher than a 50% win percentage this month.
You're the kind of guy who said Stork shouldn't have gotten #1 when he won his OSL because he lost to Kal in MSL, aren't you?
False accusation is false. Consider the facts.
Um, it's an analogy, albeit a tongue in cheek one. Did you honestly expect Jaedong to push to the finals in both leagues at once? It's like when he dropped to Effort in GOM, though Calm definitely played very well. If Jaedong loses to Yarnc, then the boy had better drop a few places, but I for one will not fault him for sacrificing a tournament (that he made it to the semifinals anyhow) for one that is obviously much more important to him.
I'm not sure how you could stare a golden mouse, back to back OSL, and an absolutely incredible overall season so poorly, regardless of him not outright winning everything. The worst he did was only making it to GOM quarters, where he dropped it so he could advance in MSL and OSL. Now he gets to the semifinals of both and he makes an obvious choice in beating his toughest competition in Fantasy.
Fact is, Jaedong lost to Calm and Fantasy. Fact ALSO is that Jaedong beat Fantasy in Fantasy's proclaimed best type of series (How many people have said he's some monster bo5er?). I think it's fair enough to atleast mitigate his loss to Calm, seeing as he beat Fantasy in that spectacular series. It's not an outright waive of the loss, but it's certainly a good reason.
In all honesty, I think it comes down to how you rank the leagues. Jaedong has (or seems like he will) triumph in the OSL. Calm has (or, amusingly, seems like he will) triumph in the MSL. Fantasy proved himself in PL.
The only difference here is, while they all did well in their respective leagues, ONLY Jaedong did well in all of them while still remaining top dog in one. Calm was nowhere to be seen in OSL, and fumbled his PL games like Jaedong. Fantasy did very well in the OSL (comparatively to how well Jaedong did in the MSL), WON Proleague with 2 great wins, and did relatively poor in MSL. Jaedong's once a semifinalist(msl), and twice a finalist (PL and OSL). Throw in a respectable showing and GOM and it'd be daft to think Jaedong did anything other than put up monster results this season, regardless of dropping series in ZvZ in the weaker tourneys.
Yes, the weight of his losses should be lessened, but they should NOT be counted out or not considered balance-tipping. Calm's victory absolutely has to be counted against him to some extent, as it was not only indicative of his performance this month but it is a failing. Dropping out of a league has always been more likely to drop someone a rank than that person not being in a particular league - just look at Bisu right now. Those games were part of Jaedong's play this month, and as such have to be considered when judging JD's overall this performance this month. Even with the dampener that is scheduling, it can't just be considered a minor detail, it's what he's done this month. It being a ZvZ also mirrors your "Fantasy Bo5 King failure" argument.
I do agree that ranking the leagues has a lot to do with it as well, of course. My thoughts trend more towards the fact that not only is PL considered most important (according to many interviews...although not without argument), but it was the actual PL final, whereas this OSL match was only a semifinal and thus of lesser significance, something that cannot be ignored. Fantasy beat JD on the bigger stage by both of those criteria, so I think he's got the edge as of now.
Of course, there's still half a month to go, so yeah Jaedong has more opportunities to move up (and the golden mouse is a biggie). As it stands, however, he's not #1. No player with a 4-7 record should really be given such consideration.
I must also take issue with your analysis of how well each player did in the leagues though, as fantasy only fell to Bisu, who is not only one of the best players out there but also his teammate. You must also factor in the (relatively small) detail that the SKT players didn't have a shot at GOM, as small of a footnote as it may be.
Once again, we've still got half a month, so we'll see what happens.
My entire argument was on the stipulation of, "If Jaedong wins the OSL." so yeah.
I think Flash's 92% TvT record over the last three months and winning GOM should award him a position on next month's power rank... let's say a modest #10 spot. + Show Spoiler +
But then, he only got there by defeating July, who was playing poorly, and this proves that Flash can't win when it matters against good opponents.
I think Flash's 92% TvT record over the last two months and winning GOM should award him a position on next month's power rank... let's say a modest #10 spot. + Show Spoiler +
But then, he only got there by defeating July, who was playing poorly, and this proves that Flash can't win when it matters against good opponents.
He went 3-1 and not 3-0? COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE. NOT close and NO cigar for Flash next month! Plus Flash played bad! Plus GOM doesn't matter! Plus I hate Flash! Flash is a turtle! Flash shot my dog! Flash isn't on SKT1!
I think Flash's 92% TvT record over the last two months and winning GOM should award him a position on next month's power rank... let's say a modest #10 spot. + Show Spoiler +
But then, he only got there by defeating July, who was playing poorly, and this proves that Flash can't win when it matters against good opponents.
He went 3-1 and not 3-0? COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE. NOT close and NO cigar for Flash next month! Plus Flash played bad! Plus GOM doesn't matter! Plus I hate Flash! Flash is a turtle! Flash shot my dog! Flash isn't on SKT1! Flash isn't on SKT1! Flash isn't on SKT1!
There, I think I covered all my bases.
corrected, but seriously FlaSh is way ahead of any other terran, he was in GOM finals and that wasn't enough to put him in PR. Someone should change the PR name to SKT1 wish rank
On August 16 2009 20:43 Hinanawi wrote: So Flash is 13-1 in his last 14 TvTs, most of them against A and S-class Terrans. FvT indeed.
Only after 2300 ELO level! (JD has > 2300 in JvZ.)
Not that ELO is a perfect indicator of anything, but just for fun:
Jaedong HAD >2300 vZ, he's down to 2234 vZ after his recent disappointing ZvZ sets...only temporary I'm sure. He'll probably get it back up soon.
Flash's TvT on the other hand is at his personal all-time high, 2246. He's creeping up on Stork and Jangbi's all-time vT peaks (Jangbi at #1, with 2258 peak, 2178 currently).
You guys lost your mind.. Flash didn't win 3 - 0 so he shouldn't even leave a trace of hair about being recommened on PR or CBNC. And Flash's TvT % isn't high enough to be considered S-Class. He lost Game 1 against Iris.. shame on that kid.. brings disgrace to Starcraft. He should be banned from PR for the next year.
I believe JWD will put Hyuk on the PR over Flash because Hyuk "clutched and was an essential player in SKT's Proleague victory". And I'm not kidding, this wouldn't surprise me in the slightest.
Well, all the sarcasm is well deserved after all those totally ridiculuos comments about Flash play. He just proved last night that he is in a league of his own in TvT; Iris was just playing a different game.
Also,
What I don't like about the recent PRs that they are changing soooo much. How come players who were at PR for sooo long drop just for one month just to appear again in the next rank. Plus lots of players who will only show up here once in their career, like type-b and before that theZerg... I just miss some consistency in the PR though I think in general the recent PRs are pretty good. There is little controversy about the top players placement (after the Zero accident of course). However, the bottom part of PRs leaves sth to be desired...
If you want consistency, go check the kespa ranking. Power ranking should be more about the player's play during the past month and the bias makes it unique. Otherwise, why bother making a power rank if it looks just like kespa's?
There is a distinction between consistency and KeSPA. KeSPA had Luxury had #7 last month, no one would've put him in the top 20 under any subjective system.
On August 17 2009 07:36 ghostWriter wrote: If you want consistency, go check the kespa ranking. Power ranking should be more about the player's play during the past month and the bias makes it unique. Otherwise, why bother making a power rank if it looks just like kespa's?
The problem is that in a moths with very few games the PR is really skewed. That's when, in my opinion, one should use more the consistency criterion. In a months were there are many games one gets lots of data points and the PR is quite accurate.
All I want is a reliable rank where all players are treated equally. I don't care if bias makes it unique. And all I said I would prefer a bit more of consistency, not a rank based completely on consistency. As far as I know PR was about who are the top 10 players right now. 1 month lucky streak doesn't mean that some players deserve to be there.
I wish there was, in addition to PR, a top ten that was voted for by the whole community. Everyone could pick their monthly top 10 and it would make some kind of composite.
If everyone had to pick their top ten, then big JD fans would always put JD at #1 but the other slots would be more objective, same for Bisu fans ect. Over all I bet it would be a pretty good gauge of performance.
On August 17 2009 08:14 iamho wrote: most people would just vote for their favorite player, not the players actually doing well
For most people, their favorite player happens to be the one doing well. If Jaedong and Flash stop performing as well, you will see the rabidness of their fanbase decrease proportionally.
On August 17 2009 09:17 Orbifold wrote: If everyone had to pick their top ten, then big JD fans would always put JD at #1 but the other slots would be more objective, same for Bisu fans ect. Over all I bet it would be a pretty good gauge of performance.
I dare all boxer fans to unite and to show how bad the system is. The player with the biggest fanbase, Jaedong atm, will be #1 without contest, even if you personally try to vote objective, 250 other guys will autovote Jaedong or Bisu
On August 17 2009 09:17 Orbifold wrote: If everyone had to pick their top ten, then big JD fans would always put JD at #1 but the other slots would be more objective, same for Bisu fans ect. Over all I bet it would be a pretty good gauge of performance.
blind fanboys would always put their favorie first, not only the JD and Bisu fans. And reasonable fans wont put their favorie first when they suck. They might be pissed though, but i often read stuff like "Even though i'm in love with Flash i admit he's doing bad". Or "Even though i hate JD nobody can deny he's the best right now" (for ex. Plexa sg along that line, not exactly this)
The next person who tries to be clever by trying the sarcastic argument of why Flash shouldn't be in the power rank should be PR banned. Enough already, after the fifth time, surely it's a little old?
This month's PR:
#1: How the hell do you choose between fantasy and Jaedong? Fantasy's emmaculate execution of the the proxy-rax bunker-rush and his stunning play on Outsider in the PL finals (the most important of all leagues, mind you) makes a strong case for his placement at #1. But while the fantasy gains major points for that win, I don't think it reflects poorly on Jaedong. Similarly, I think the emphasis on Jaedong's semi-final clinching win on RotK goes to the Tyrant- fantasy was done in a by a bad position and a good call from Jaedong, and not any lapse of skill. Games One and Two of that series were incredibly hard-fought, and I came out of them thinking that these two players are evenly matched. In the end, I believe that if Jaedong wins the OSL, he will retain the top spot by virtue of a tie. And OSL win would put to rest the idea that Jaedong's ZvZ is slipping, and a golden mouse should be as good of a ticket to #1 as any. There is only space for one #1... #2: ... but the other is #2. #3: This month sucks, because there's so little action, this will end up more as a legacy PR than anything else. But with Calm grabbing #4 last month, it's only fair to promote him after a win against the world's top Zerg. Calm had quite a practice advantage in the MSL, but that shouldn't diminish his achievements; with wins against EffOrt and Jaedong, Calm has proven to be a master of preparation and execution. Only his Bo3 against BeSt (which he won) was lackluster. #4: An OSL finals is an OSL finals, and however you characterize Yarnc's route so far, you cannot ignore success. Yarnc has beaten Flash, Jaedong, go.go, and type-b in convincing fashion, and he is finally ready for the big stage. If he beats Jaedong, he moves to #3. #5:Iris will get the fifth slot if he beats Kwanro and makes the MSL finals. The MSL at one point was looking like the tougher tournament this year, and even if the end result appears to be a typical match of A-level pros, it will, in reality, be a well-deserved showdown between two clever and entertaining players. Iris has looked shaky of late, but he has also gotten things done. #6:Flash will take the #6 through sheer lack of competition. GOM is his consolation prize for falling out of nearly everything else, even if it only reminded us of how he has failed to achieve the bright future that seemed so imminent a year and a half ago. Nonetheless, his TvT has been spectacular of late, often he seems to fall behind if only to make his inevitable comeback that much more stunning. Suggestions of FvT are well merited. Flash now needs to get his TvZ in order (and we haven't seen a TvP from him (or, granted, anyone) of late) and perform along with his peers in the next set of starleagues. See you in the winter! #7: Having covered nearly all the big players this month, we turn to Bisu. Bisu has gone 3-2 this month, going 2-2 against Iris (after being down 0-1) and falling out of his signature tournament- an event which seemingly took the spark right out of a promising MSL. More positively, he also shut down the "___ next bonjwa?" craze by handling PerfectMan with ease in PL. He missed a sure-fire ace match against Jaedong which could have brought him higher on this rank, but I'm sure he was probably more happy with the end result. Bisu was the last remaining protoss standing in a season which seemed designed to destroy them. It's not all his fault, but we expect better from Bisu, an upset against Iris does not help your cause. Along with Flash, Bisu is another legend whose performance will be scrutinized greatly in the fall. #8:EffOrt defeated July this month, which gives me just enough justification to put EffOrt on this mock-PR. It's really the only games he's played this month, and he handled July's ingenious play very well. A loss to Firefist in the Masters is nothing important, once in practice, EffOrt should be poised to return to his dominating ways. A deeper starleague run is in order.
The rest: Nobody else has played this month, and deserves much of a mention. I suppose FireFist and MyDream deserve shout-outs for not sucking, but honestly, including people based on WCG opening rounds, and the Masters tournament is kinda hard. I guess that means that Kwanro sneaks on the rank, but I can't for the life of me think of someone else to include. Put fantasy at #10 again for beating ArisoL like a rented mule. ArisoL gets on the NC&NC along with KeSPA for their terrible free-agent system, and whoever the hell is running KT, for their idiotic name-changes.
Kwanro deserves mention in your hypothetical final PR, especially depending on his upcoming games against Iris. Even if he loses, it wouldn't be out of place to throw him a 9 or 10 spot.
A) I put Flash above EffOrt. B) When did I say Flash's GOM win was a mark of failure? You just completely made that up.* C) Hardly anyone played this month- last month, EffOrt would've dropped out of the PR if he had played only 4 games (well, 7 now) and won three. But obviously, times change, and EffOrt hasn't done anything that should make him fall out of this. He entered the month with really only the third-place match, and won it.
honestly after Jaedong, Fantasy, Calm, Yarnc, Flash, Iris, Bisu, and Effort, as the list above included, I have no idea who should be in a PR right now.
also it's worth noting that although flash is out of the osl and msl, all three players (jaedong, yarnc, kwanro) who eliminated him are still in contention for the titles.
On August 20 2009 05:00 o[twist] wrote: honestly after Jaedong, Fantasy, Calm, Yarnc, Flash, Iris, Bisu, and Effort, as the list above included, I have no idea who should be in a PR right now.
Definitely should include whichever organization (Kespa again, I think?) that decided on the slave market contract changes for players. Maybe put them at #3 to create a buffer between JD/Fantasy and the rest of the PR.
On August 20 2009 05:00 o[twist] wrote: honestly after Jaedong, Fantasy, Calm, Yarnc, Flash, Iris, Bisu, and Effort, as the list above included, I have no idea who should be in a PR right now.
Definitely should include whichever organization (Kespa again, I think?) that decided on the slave market contract changes for players. Maybe put them at #3 to create a buffer between JD/Fantasy and the rest of the PR.
oh come on. those kids only have to work for 12-15 hours a day, seven days a week, and play in three to five tournaments at once. those sound like pretty good working conditions to me - why should they have a choice about where they do it
On August 20 2009 05:00 o[twist] wrote: honestly after Jaedong, Fantasy, Calm, Yarnc, Flash, Iris, Bisu, and Effort, as the list above included, I have no idea who should be in a PR right now.
On August 20 2009 05:00 o[twist] wrote: honestly after Jaedong, Fantasy, Calm, Yarnc, Flash, Iris, Bisu, and Effort, as the list above included, I have no idea who should be in a PR right now.
On August 20 2009 05:00 o[twist] wrote: honestly after Jaedong, Fantasy, Calm, Yarnc, Flash, Iris, Bisu, and Effort, as the list above included, I have no idea who should be in a PR right now.
Um, Kwanro.
well we know he can beat zero...
Well hell he's an MSL semifinalist and has been playing fine, if mostly against Zero. Considering most people here can't even fathom a #9, it seemed like he'd be a pretty obvious choice.
On August 20 2009 12:27 Assymptotic wrote: Backho/Lomo/Killer should share the #9 spot together. They took Oz to an unexpected Ace match in the PL finals.
On August 20 2009 12:27 Assymptotic wrote: Backho/Lomo/Killer should share the #9 spot together. They took Oz to an unexpected Ace match in the PL finals.
On August 20 2009 12:27 Assymptotic wrote: Backho/Lomo/Killer should share the #9 spot together. They took Oz to an unexpected Ace match in the PL finals.
After losing the first match 0-4...
lol, so true. They looked awful on day 1, although you could attribute it to Jaedong's loss in the first match. It always hurts to see your ace go down.
Also Kwanro is in the finals of the MSL, there's no way he won't make it to the pl next month, especially if he beats calm (which is possible, since it's zvz and anything can happen).
On August 22 2009 00:15 nonduc wrote: This is the PLAYER’s Rank — not the team’s. That’s why the results in individual leagues >>>>>>>> the results in team leagues.
This has been addressed several times in PR threads and is flawed logic for several reasons.
What is undeniable, however, and this coming from someone who has no particular love for Fantasy, is that his games in the PL finals demonstrated top quality play. It may indeed be a ranking of individual players, but what are the team finals except a series of 1v1s? While it may not paint the same type of picture of the player as a BoX, I don't think anyone that watched the PL finals, particularly Fantasy's games, could possibly claim that those have necessarily less import on the PR than his performance in individual leagues.
On August 22 2009 00:15 nonduc wrote: This is the PLAYER’s Rank — not the team’s. That’s why the results in individual leagues >>>>>>>> the results in team leagues.
This has been addressed several times in PR threads and is flawed logic for several reasons.
What is undeniable, however, and this coming from someone who has no particular love for Fantasy, is that his games in the PL finals demonstrated top quality play. It may indeed be a ranking of individual players, but what are the team finals except a series of 1v1s? While it may not paint the same type of picture of the player as a BoX, I don't think anyone that watched the PL finals, particularly Fantasy's games, could possibly claim that those have necessarily less import on the PR than his performance in individual leagues.
i don't want to underestimate Fantasy's PR perforance but Bo5 isn't bunch of 1v1 stacked up together. Winning Bo5 is far more prestige as it says something about players quality AND mentality. Fantasy is great player, but does he haave what it takes to win something individually?
All the players besides Jaedong and Yarnc looked bad in one of their recent events. (Fantasy raped by fast pool twice in a row? Learn to defend early-game, please.... you can't always be the aggressor.) Maybe even Jaedong - I haven't seen Jaedong vs. Calm yet. But Calm looked bad against Luxury - and it's unlikely he would've looked any better against Jaedong had Jaedong not prioritized OSL.
Kwanro might be higher for reaching MSL finals, but Kwanro vs. Iris was a sucky Bo5, in which both players looked pretty bad. I could see Yarnc/Fantasy/Calm placed in any order, but they seem like a lock for slots 2-4. KTY is very good, but he got screwed in the individual tournaments (bo5 against Iris right before PL finals, go.go & Zero with vicious surprise builds in the cheese round) so he's not playing any games. Though he's still the second best player in the world, he needs better results to justify a high placement.
Last two slots go to Sangho and Gosl[Flying] for race balance.
On August 22 2009 00:15 nonduc wrote: This is the PLAYER’s Rank — not the team’s. That’s why the results in individual leagues >>>>>>>> the results in team leagues.
This has been addressed several times in PR threads and is flawed logic for several reasons.
What is undeniable, however, and this coming from someone who has no particular love for Fantasy, is that his games in the PL finals demonstrated top quality play. It may indeed be a ranking of individual players, but what are the team finals except a series of 1v1s? While it may not paint the same type of picture of the player as a BoX, I don't think anyone that watched the PL finals, particularly Fantasy's games, could possibly claim that those have necessarily less import on the PR than his performance in individual leagues.
i don't want to underestimate Fantasy's PR perforance but Bo5 isn't bunch of 1v1 stacked up together. Winning Bo5 is far more prestige as it says something about players quality AND mentality. Fantasy is great player, but does he haave what it takes to win something individually?
Firstly my claim wasn't that BoX were 1v1s stacked together, that was the claim about the PL matches, and was a rhetorical simplification that I am not overly committed to.
Secondly, that the individual leagues are more prestigious is not true anymore, or at least, it is not considered that way anymore in Korea. Fantasy delivered 2 excellent wins over Jaedong. Their battle in the first day alone was not only sensational but demonstrative of their caliber as players.
Assume then that Fantasy does not have the 1 or 2 spot in the next PR. Then who deserves it? Calm? Fantasy has been tested more in this past month than he has. Yes Calm did defeat Jaedong in JD's legendary ZvZ. But that does not change the fact that Fantasy dominated in the PL and up until his encounter with JD in the OSL, dominated there as well. Calm has done well in the MSL, but I just don't believe there is a strong enough case to be made that he usurps Fantasy. You said "Fantasy is great player, but does he have what it takes to win something individually?" but you could make that case for any other contender for the number 2 spot on the PR. Fantasy, at least, brought victory for his team in the PL. And say what you will, that is quite prestigious.
Edit: Unless you want to make the case that Flash should be 2. And love Flash though I may, I just don't see a strong enough case for him at the number 2 spot. 4-5 is where I think he belongs, hoping to see him higher soon.
On August 22 2009 00:15 nonduc wrote: This is the PLAYER’s Rank — not the team’s. That’s why the results in individual leagues >>>>>>>> the results in team leagues.
This has been addressed several times in PR threads and is flawed logic for several reasons.
What is undeniable, however, and this coming from someone who has no particular love for Fantasy, is that his games in the PL finals demonstrated top quality play. It may indeed be a ranking of individual players, but what are the team finals except a series of 1v1s? While it may not paint the same type of picture of the player as a BoX, I don't think anyone that watched the PL finals, particularly Fantasy's games, could possibly claim that those have necessarily less import on the PR than his performance in individual leagues.
i don't want to underestimate Fantasy's PR perforance but Bo5 isn't bunch of 1v1 stacked up together. Winning Bo5 is far more prestige as it says something about players quality AND mentality. Fantasy is great player, but does he haave what it takes to win something individually?
With Kwanros and Luxuries winning leagues left and right these days, what does it actually take to win something individually? ;-)
On August 22 2009 00:57 Severedevil wrote: All the players besides Jaedong and Yarnc looked bad in one of their recent events. (Fantasy raped by fast pool twice in a row? Learn to defend early-game, please.... you can't always be the aggressor.) Maybe even Jaedong - I haven't seen Jaedong vs. Calm yet. But Calm looked bad against Luxury - and it's unlikely he would've looked any better against Jaedong had Jaedong not prioritized OSL.
Kwanro might be higher for reaching MSL finals, but Kwanro vs. Iris was a sucky Bo5, in which both players looked pretty bad. I could see Yarnc/Fantasy/Calm placed in any order, but they seem like a lock for slots 2-4. KTY is very good, but he got screwed in the individual tournaments (bo5 against Iris right before PL finals, go.go & Zero with vicious surprise builds in the cheese round) so he's not playing any games. Though he's still the second best player in the world, he needs better results to justify a high placement.
Last two slots go to Sangho and Gosl[Flying] for race balance.
I'm so sick of that excuse. He got straight up outplayed.
I'm so sick of that excuse. He got straight up outplayed.
preparation is hugely important right now idk
Maybe so. But for most of us, how the players spend their time preparing falls squarely in the realm of pure speculation, aside from the often imprecise appraisals the player's themselves give of the time they spent preparing. That aside, even if we did know precisely how much preparation, sleep, etc. each player had before each match, how could we evaluate to what extent it was, in the case of JD v Calm, preparation and to what extent was it other factors?
Even JD himself stated that players are becoming more finely attuned to his style of play and his strategies. And while I have no doubt that JD will come up with more brilliant, mindblowing ways to win in ZvZ in the future, people have been less intimidated of JD's ZvZ as of late and so have been able to perform better against him, it would seem. Calm capitalized on this at the perfect moment. Do I think that JD is a far superior ZvZ than Calm? Well, yes. But some, most notably Calm and Effort, have finally found a hole in the seemingly impenetrable JvZ. As such, speculations on preparation aside, they should be praised for it.
if preparation wasn't a factor we wouldn't count certain tournaments to be more important than others. similarly when a player is active in multiple tournaments it makes sense to think about which ones they're actually preparing for. if we put too much weight on calm's 3-1 vs. jaedong we also have to put a lot of weight on calm's 0-2 vs. luxury
On August 22 2009 01:56 o[twist] wrote: if preparation wasn't a factor we wouldn't count certain tournaments to be more important than others. similarly when a player is active in multiple tournaments it makes sense to think about which ones they're actually preparing for. if we put too much weight on calm's 3-1 vs. jaedong we also have to put a lot of weight on calm's 0-2 vs. luxury
I'm not saying preparation is not a factor. I'm saying that to use it in assessing a player's performance is fraught with difficulties. Sure, it makes sense to consider preparation to an extent. But there was a time when JD's ZvZ seemed completely untouchable, seemingly notwithstanding any sort of preparation. I don't think anyone would contend that now.
Of course a lot of this speculation will probably be answered by JD's performance tomorrow. That will offer us a case of JD's ZvZ once again with full preparation. But I'm not so sure we can say unequivocally that JD would have won his series vs. Calm if he did not have other things to prepare for just yet. Tomorrow may change that.
I'm so sick of that excuse. He got straight up outplayed.
preparation is hugely important right now idk
Maybe so. But for most of us, how the players spend their time preparing falls squarely in the realm of pure speculation, aside from the often imprecise appraisals the player's themselves give of the time they spent preparing. That aside, even if we did know precisely how much preparation, sleep, etc. each player had before each match, how could we evaluate to what extent it was, in the case of JD v Calm, preparation and to what extent was it other factors?
This is a really important point, and if we could keep it in mind our discussion of players would be much more intelligent. Speculating as to a player's inner condition which we know nothing about is like attributing things to magic.
It's different when we actually have information, for instance Jaedong's exhaustion related hospital stay.
On August 22 2009 01:56 o[twist] wrote: if preparation wasn't a factor we wouldn't count certain tournaments to be more important than others. similarly when a player is active in multiple tournaments it makes sense to think about which ones they're actually preparing for. if we put too much weight on calm's 3-1 vs. jaedong we also have to put a lot of weight on calm's 0-2 vs. luxury
I'm not saying preparation is not a factor. I'm saying that to use it in assessing a player's performance is fraught with difficulties. Sure, it makes sense to consider preparation to an extent. But there was a time when JD's ZvZ seemed completely untouchable, seemingly notwithstanding any sort of preparation. I don't think anyone would contend that now.
Of course a lot of this speculation will probably be answered by JD's performance tomorrow. That will offer us a case of JD's ZvZ once again with full preparation. But I'm not so sure we can say unequivocally that JD would have won his series vs. Calm if he did not have other things to prepare for just yet. Tomorrow may change that.
you didn't respond to the hypothetical in my post: if we overvalue calm's series against jaedong, why not his series against luxury
On August 22 2009 01:56 o[twist] wrote: if preparation wasn't a factor we wouldn't count certain tournaments to be more important than others. similarly when a player is active in multiple tournaments it makes sense to think about which ones they're actually preparing for. if we put too much weight on calm's 3-1 vs. jaedong we also have to put a lot of weight on calm's 0-2 vs. luxury
I'm not saying preparation is not a factor. I'm saying that to use it in assessing a player's performance is fraught with difficulties. Sure, it makes sense to consider preparation to an extent. But there was a time when JD's ZvZ seemed completely untouchable, seemingly notwithstanding any sort of preparation. I don't think anyone would contend that now.
Of course a lot of this speculation will probably be answered by JD's performance tomorrow. That will offer us a case of JD's ZvZ once again with full preparation. But I'm not so sure we can say unequivocally that JD would have won his series vs. Calm if he did not have other things to prepare for just yet. Tomorrow may change that.
you didn't respond to the hypothetical in my post: if we overvalue calm's series against jaedong, why not his series against luxury
I didn't think I had to. My only claim is a negative one: that it would be rash to ascribe preparation as the sole factor in JD's victory over Calm due to epistemological difficulties. That it is was a factor, no one denies. The extent to which we can evaluate either the JD/Calm matches or the Calm/Luxury matches based on factors like preparation depends on the reliability of the information we have about that juxtaposed with solid instances of how prepared they were and how they fared in other cases. But more often than not, I would think, the latter condition is not met.
Put succinctly, that flukes happen in games of BW no one denies: consider the JD v Bisu GOM Special G5, or JD cancelling his spire against Bisu earlier in the PL. But beyond such blatant cases prudence dictates that simply ascribing preparation as the sole or even the main reason why someone like JD lost would be to presuppose knowledge I don't think we have. We have a little more in this case, given that JD admitted how tired he was, that he was sick, etc., but that only becomes meaningful if we have access to how he performs generally when sick vs. well or prepared vs unprepared and that sort of information for other players.
I am not, again, disputing that preparation makes a difference in these games. It absolutely, absolutely, does. But when we ask ourselves to what extent it makes a difference, oftentimes the best answer is simply "We don't know", in many cases. I hope that made some sense.
Or put differently, a win is first of all a win. In order to say something like "it's a fluke" we would need some evidence of that. But Calm defeated JD in a Bo5, and has been playing quite well. Same was true when Effort defeated JD in Gom (which Effort was not preparing for, if I recall correctly, and nor JD as much- again speculation rules the day here). I just don't think we can fairly say that, if JD had whatever amount of prep time needed, he would have had a surefire win against Calm- it simply flies in the face that Calm is playing well and JD, much to my chagrin, sometimes loses.
Believe me, my first reaction to JD losing to Calm was "what a joke". But looking at Calm's performance overall, it's a harder claim to make. That's all I'm saying- let's be hesitant to call a victory anything less than that until further evidence, which often never comes.
contrary to your posts there are SOME things we know - some tournaments are generally assumed to be more important than others - the time in between two events is not unlimited, therefore players must choose what they need to practice for - players tend to be relatively predictable and often quite public in terms of what they choose to prepare for (e.g. iris gom, effort pl)
thus we can definitely at least take into account tournament prestige and public statements regarding practice time in order to consider preparation in making PR.
On August 22 2009 05:33 o[twist] wrote: contrary to your posts there are SOME things we know - some tournaments are generally assumed to be more important than others - the time in between two events is not unlimited, therefore players must choose what they need to practice for - players tend to be relatively predictable and often quite public in terms of what they choose to prepare for (e.g. iris gom, effort pl)
thus we can definitely at least take into account tournament prestige and public statements regarding practice time in order to consider preparation in making PR.
I'm not saying we can't do it to an extent, again, I am simply highlighting difficulties, not suggesting impossibilities.
To highlight my point, consider the following thought experiment: Say the no. 1 on the PR became very, very, ill for one month. Even if he was completely dominating the scene, would it be fair to keep him the highest on the PR (or for that matter on the PR at all), even though he wasn't producing any wins?
That's admittedly an extreme case. But it brings forth a certain point: there comes a time when, despite whatever factors we can consider, (and my point is not that we shouldn't consider them, but be careful when we do) evaluating players is a results-based procedure. In their series Calm produced the results, JD didn't. We can speculate until we're blue in the face about if they had an isolated Bo100 on an island paradise that was perfect to prepare in who would win most games. But the facts of the matter don't allow that, so yes, we consider some factors more than others, judging players is first and foremost about results.
And of course this can be complicated too, for not all results are commensurable. The OSL finals will have something to say about this.
For the record, I think JD deserves the 1 or 2 spot on the PR this next month. I'm just against these extremely speculative claims about things we only see through a glass darkly.
my issue is about a case not where a player is sick and not performing anywhere but where a player is obviously focusing on one event rather than another event and performing at different levels in the two events for reasons of preparation
On August 22 2009 05:58 o[twist] wrote: my issue is about a case not where a player is sick and not performing anywhere but where a player is obviously focusing on one event rather than another event and performing at different levels in the two events for reasons of preparation
I understand this; my quarrel is not with the fact that he, say JD, performs better based on events he is prepared for vs. those he is not (that seems obviously true), rather, that difference in performance considered, would it have any impact on the results of those games, for example in the Calm series.
And my answer is simply that we don't know. That he plays better or worse on a given day based on his level of preparation is a given, but he plays against an opponent, and we can't say definitively the extent to which of a role the difference in preparation makes in determining who wins and who loses. That's all I'm claiming, and I don't think it's a terribly contentious one either.
In summary:
I'm not saying preparation makes no difference.
I am saying it's hard to gauge exactly how much of a win or loss is determined solely on the difference between the two players' preparations.
well, in calm's case it's the difference between beating jaedong and losing to luxury in jaedong's case it's the difference between beating fantasy and losing to calm
On August 24 2009 21:04 vaMpYr wrote: yes ok , you tell me now why my power rank is so funny . maybe i can remove zero and put iris 9# . but i cant put all players in power rank .
and whats the deal with bisu 3 ? calm played really really really good lately , bisu didnt so much .
On August 24 2009 21:06 vaMpYr wrote: and dont tell me i dont watch starcraft , i think i watch more than you will ever watch . i do see many jokes on TL too .
First of all, Bisu above Fantasy is outrageous. Fantasy played alot more matches than Bisu had and produced some solid results. Bisu didn't really have a chance to prove himself much this month besides the 2-3 against Iris and few other matches like WCG. Second, Zero doesn't belong in the PR and same goes for Stork (even though I like Stork alot). Third, Iris belongs in the top 10 and not as #9. He's more like 5 ~ 7. I know that everyone can't make the perfect PR but where you placed Bisu, Zero, and Stork is just.. madness.
On August 24 2009 21:04 vaMpYr wrote: yes ok , you tell me now why my power rank is so funny . maybe i can remove zero and put iris 9# . but i cant put all players in power rank .
and whats the deal with bisu 3 ? calm played really really really good lately , bisu didnt so much .
On August 24 2009 21:06 vaMpYr wrote: and dont tell me i dont watch starcraft , i think i watch more than you will ever watch . i do see many jokes on TL too .
First of all, Bisu above Fantasy is outrageous. Fantasy played alot more matches than Bisu had and produced some solid results. Bisu didn't really have a chance to prove himself much this month besides the 2-3 against Iris and few other matches like WCG. Second, Zero doesn't belong in the PR and same goes for Stork (even though I like Stork alot). Third, Iris belongs in the top 10 and not as #9. He's more like 5 ~ 7. I know that everyone can't make the perfect PR but where you placed Bisu, Zero, and Stork is just.. madness.
PR is not about results , its about who is better . bisu is still better than fantasy and iris for now . losing 3 2 doesnt mean he is lower . ( i hate bisu )
same thing for calm , beating 3 1 jaedong doesnt mean he is better . jaedong is better than calm . bisu is better than fantasy and iris .
i think my only mistake is to forgot iris in the PR . but its hard to choose and many players can have the top 10 .
stork played good games at PL playoffs , he played descent in WCG without any training . he should have won effort easily if he had not give all his units under the swarm . and he sould have won if he attacked at the good timing . stork MUST be in the top10 .
ok i can remove Zero and put iris then , maybe i was too subjective here .
as much as i like iris , he doesnt deserve more than 9# . he lost to flash easily , he lost to kwanro after leading 2 0 , he lost to perfectman in a brillant game .
but however , PR will always be someting subjective , so stop blame on me .
im almost never agree with each new PR , so its still something with some subjective feeling .
On August 24 2009 21:04 vaMpYr wrote: yes ok , you tell me now why my power rank is so funny . maybe i can remove zero and put iris 9# . but i cant put all players in power rank .
and whats the deal with bisu 3 ? calm played really really really good lately , bisu didnt so much .
On August 24 2009 21:06 vaMpYr wrote: and dont tell me i dont watch starcraft , i think i watch more than you will ever watch . i do see many jokes on TL too .
First of all, Bisu above Fantasy is outrageous. Fantasy played alot more matches than Bisu had and produced some solid results. Bisu didn't really have a chance to prove himself much this month besides the 2-3 against Iris and few other matches like WCG. Second, Zero doesn't belong in the PR and same goes for Stork (even though I like Stork alot). Third, Iris belongs in the top 10 and not as #9. He's more like 5 ~ 7. I know that everyone can't make the perfect PR but where you placed Bisu, Zero, and Stork is just.. madness.
PR is not about results , its about who is better . bisu is still better than fantasy and iris for now . losing 3 2 doesnt mean he is lower . ( i hate bisu )
same thing for calm , beating 3 1 jaedong doesnt mean he is better . jaedong is better than calm . bisu is better than fantasy and iris .
i think my only mistake is to forgot iris in the PR . but its hard to choose and many players can have the top 10 .
stork played good games at PL playoffs , he played descent in WCG without any training . he should have won effort easily if he had not give all his units under the swarm . and he sould have won if he attacked at the good timing . stork MUST be in the top10 .
ok i can remove Zero and put iris then , maybe i was too subjective here .
as much as i like iris , he doesnt deserve more than 9# . he lost to flash easily , he lost to kwanro after leading 2 0 , he lost to perfectman in a brillant game .
but however , PR will always be someting subjective , so stop blame on me .
im almost never agree with each new PR , so its still something with some subjective feeling .
What sort of criteria are you using to state that Bisu is better than Fantasy?
Secondly, just because the PR is partially subjective, it doesn't follow that your rankings (or someone else's, including mine) are not blameworthy. Why have a discussion of it at all if every estimation ultimately ends with, "well to hell with it, it's subjective anyways".
bisu is obviously a better player than fantasy but he hasn't been performing. the series against iris was quite sad and fantasy on the other hand carried his team in the PL finals.
On August 25 2009 01:07 o[twist] wrote: bisu is obviously a better player than fantasy but he hasn't been performing. the series against iris was quite sad and fantasy on the other hand carried his team in the PL finals.
my god guys go ask about this on some korean forum and you will see . bisu is a better play than fantasy , that's all . there is no discussion . its a fact . if fantasy was better , everyone in SKT would have talked about this . and dont forget the super ACE in PL final was for bisu . NOT fantasy .
On August 25 2009 01:07 o[twist] wrote: bisu is obviously a better player than fantasy but he hasn't been performing. the series against iris was quite sad and fantasy on the other hand carried his team in the PL finals.
Obviously? Why obviously?
what the hell are you talking about why obviously. bisu is an historic player, fantasy is the flavor of the month terran unless he improves and starts winning important boXes
On August 25 2009 01:44 vaMpYr wrote: my god guys go ask about this on some korean forum and you will see . bisu is a better play than fantasy , that's all . there is no discussion . its a fact . if fantasy was better , everyone in SKT would have talked about this . and dont forget the super ACE in PL final was for bisu . NOT fantasy .
watch the MSL quaterfinals , its a 100% RAPE .
I don't see why conclusions on a Korean forum need be taken as superior to any on this one, firstly; any conclusion in any language should be based on the strength of the argument no?
Secondly, simply because a player beats another player is not always grounds that, overall, he is a better player. FBH, for example, used to have seemingly every zerg's number, and yet no one would've ever called him a better player than say JD.
Not that Bisu is a 1-2 MU specialist like FBH. So Bisu destroyed Fantasy in the MSL quarters. That is indisputable. But Fantasy likewise trounced Bisu back in the Batoo OSL's.
Finally, the ace in the PL final was Fantasy, on Neo Medusa. Since SKT1 won the second Bo7 on Day II, there was no super ace match.
On August 25 2009 01:07 o[twist] wrote: bisu is obviously a better player than fantasy but he hasn't been performing. the series against iris was quite sad and fantasy on the other hand carried his team in the PL finals.
Obviously? Why obviously?
what the hell are you talking about why obviously. bisu is an historic player, fantasy is the flavor of the month terran unless he improves and starts winning important boXes
Let me get this straight.
First you say that the PR is about "who is best *right now*".
Then to support the argument that Bisu > Fantasy *right now*, to use your criterion, you state that Bisu is a historic player?
I certainly wouldn't deny that Bisu is a historic player, but it's not evidence for your argument. I would have agreed, three months ago, that Fantasy is the flavor of the month terran. But the argument is fairly untenable right now.
Bisu beat Fantasy in the MSL, then proceeded to lose to Iris. Not exactly living up to his great historical pedigree, in my opinion.
maybe you're confusing me with the other guy. i don't think bisu should be above fantasy on next month's PR; i think it's ludicrous to even consider it.
Hieros , Starcraft is ALL about korean scene . ALL builds and strats you play is ALL koreans things . Starcraft was just invented by koreans ( and of course some Grrr.. and others in 98-99) . the koreans know and understand Starcraft more than you can ever imagine . they understand some details you dont even dream of .
so if fantasy was better than bisu , there would be NO discussion for that , there would be some interview or articles talking about SKT and fantasy , explaining fantasy explosion and that he is CLEARLY now above him .
bisu is a legend of SC , he has cleary more fans than fantasy . bisu lose games just like jaedong can lose some .
the PR is about who is better right now , its not about who has played the most .
fantasy has still some clear weakness and inexperience . calm has experience .
if fantasy is better than bisu , we can still say he is better than JD too right ? fantasy beat JD in the biggest stage ever , so it count more than OSL . fantasy is better ?
i can tell you i HATE bisu , so im not subjective here , im objective 100% .
fantasy almost lost to kal this morning , im starting to really love kal much , i can tell you kal played better than fantasy . fantasy is a robot , some oov puppet , fantasy is not yet in the top like bisu or jaedong . I can even assure you flash is a step above fantasy .
if fantasy want to be above bisu in PR , he need to do some BIG results and show , like calm did . ( MSL , PL playoffs )
you can say fantasy rape JD , but bisu won jaedong the last time they played right ? we can say the same .
calm better than bisu is a good question right now , any answer would be subjective . i think calm is really smarter than bisu , but bisu has more experience and skills .
bisu is not on a slump , stork is maybe . we just cant put fantasy above bisu after the MSL quarters . if we look at all PL season , fantasy is pathetic compare to bisu .
and talking about iris , im not sure fantasy would have won vs iris . iris is a beast of tvt , im not sure who win between them .
flash vs fantasy in bo5 , can u ever think fantasy can win ? flash is the best tvt of all time . flash vs bisu in b05 , bisu is the favourite .
bisu is just better , the 0 3 in batoo doesnt mean everything .
On August 25 2009 03:23 vaMpYr wrote: Hieros , Starcraft is ALL about korean scene . ALL builds and strats you play is ALL koreans things . Starcraft was just invented by koreans ( and of course some Grrr.. and others in 98-99) . the koreans know and understand Starcraft more than you can ever imagine . they understand some details you dont even dream of .
so if fantasy was better than bisu , there would be NO discussion for that , there would be some interview or articles talking about SKT and fantasy , explaining fantasy explosion and that he is CLEARLY now above him .
bisu is a legend of SC , he has cleary more fans than fantasy . bisu lose games just like jaedong can lose some .
the PR is about who is better right now , its not about who has played the most .
fantasy has still some clear weakness and inexperience . calm has experience .
if fantasy is better than bisu , we can still say he is better than JD too right ? fantasy beat JD in the biggest stage ever , so it count more than OSL . fantasy is better ?
i can tell you i HATE bisu , so im not subjective here , im objective 100% .
fantasy almost lost to kal this morning , im starting to really love kal much , i can tell you kal played better than fantasy . fantasy is a robot , some oov puppet , fantasy is not yet in the top like bisu or jaedong . I can even assure you flash is a step above fantasy .
if fantasy want to be above bisu in PR , he need to do some BIG results and show , like calm did . ( MSL , PL playoffs )
you can say fantasy rape JD , but bisu won jaedong the last time they played right ? we can say the same .
calm better than bisu is a good question right now , any answer would be subjective . i think calm is really smarter than bisu , but bisu has more experience and skills .
bisu is not on a slump , stork is maybe . we just cant put fantasy above bisu after the MSL quarters . if we look at all PL season , fantasy is pathetic compare to bisu .
and talking about iris , im not sure fantasy would have won vs iris . iris is a beast of tvt , im not sure who win between them .
flash vs fantasy in bo5 , can u ever think fantasy can win ? flash is the best tvt of all time . flash vs bisu in b05 , bisu is the favourite .
bisu is just better , the 0 3 in batoo doesnt mean everything .
Oh really? You mean to tell me that BW is big in Korea? Geez, being the foolish, pigheaded resident of the US that I am, I would never have understood, only paying attention to TL due to woefully being only able to read articles so graciously provided in translation, from (and let me think about this for a second) Korean, by the contributors here.
Well I, being so new to these ideas, can't speak of how the art of rhetoric works in other nations, I have always heard that one should supply evidence for his or her conclusions.
Moreover, when I ask "what is your evidence for saying that Bisu is better than Fantasy" and you respond "Koreans say so, and Koreans know alot about BW" you have not provided evidence, rather, committed a logical fallacy. (Arguably two: the false appeal to authority and an argumentum ad populum).
Even if it was said in a Korean forum, certainly the arguments that they use could be expressed in English.
On August 25 2009 03:23 vaMpYr wrote: Hieros , Starcraft is ALL about korean scene . ALL builds and strats you play is ALL koreans things . Starcraft was just invented by koreans ( and of course some Grrr.. and others in 98-99) . the koreans know and understand Starcraft more than you can ever imagine . they understand some details you dont even dream of .
I don't see how that has anything to do with the discussion.
so if fantasy was better than bisu , there would be NO discussion for that , there would be some interview or articles talking about SKT and fantasy , explaining fantasy explosion and that he is CLEARLY now above him .
I hear plenty of fantasy explosion...and since when do Korean news sites talk about "so and so is better than player X right now cuz we said so"? They speak of players doing well, not doing better than specific other people. By all accounts Fantasy is doing great.
bisu is a legend of SC , he has cleary more fans than fantasy . bisu lose games just like jaedong can lose some .
Correct.
the PR is about who is better right now , its not about who has played the most .
The first part of your sentence renders your previous statement irrelevant, as Bisu's legacy then has little to do with the current ranking. It has also been demonstrated that you cannot do well on a PR unless you actually do something (or PerfectMan would have popped up by now). You cannot justify placing a player who has done little over someone who just posted huge results.
fantasy has still some clear weakness and inexperience . calm has experience .
Fantasy has done a lot more on the big stage than Calm, to be quite frank.
if fantasy is better than bisu , we can still say he is better than JD too right ? fantasy beat JD in the biggest stage ever , so it count more than OSL . fantasy is better ?
This train of logic makes no sense, since the PR is about the whole month. You also seem to be suggesting Bisu should be ranked higher than Jaedong. lol?
i can tell you i HATE bisu , so im not subjective here , im objective 100% .
fantasy almost lost to kal this morning , im starting to really love kal much , i can tell you kal played better than fantasy . fantasy is a robot , some oov puppet , fantasy is not yet in the top like bisu or jaedong . I can even assure you flash is a step above fantasy .
If fantasy is a puppet, why aren't all T1 terrans just as good as him? If he's just an oov/boxer puppet, why is his vP ridiculous? If Kal played better, then why did he lose? If fantasy isn't a top player, then why was he the MVP of the PL finals?
if fantasy want to be above bisu in PR , he need to do some BIG results and show , like calm did . ( MSL , PL playoffs )
Kinda shot yourself in the foot, there.
you can say fantasy rape JD , but bisu won jaedong the last time they played right ? we can say the same .
Where does this statement fit into the rest of your argument?
calm better than bisu is a good question right now , any answer would be subjective . i think calm is really smarter than bisu , but bisu has more experience and skills .
So Calm > Bisu is debatable, but Fantasy > Bisu is not? I really don't see how that works.
bisu is not on a slump , stork is maybe . we just cant put fantasy above bisu after the MSL quarters . if we look at all PL season , fantasy is pathetic compare to bisu .
Good thing the PR is about this particular month with a little bit of context, rather than a whole year affair, huh? Plus, nobody mentioned a slump. Bisu just hasn't done anything this month that suggests he's playing better than fantasy. He lost to Iris and played 1 PL final game and his series vFree. It's not a terrible record, but fantasy's outstrips it by a mile this month. I cannot even begin to stress the significance of his PL tear.
and talking about iris , im not sure fantasy would have won vs iris . iris is a beast of tvt , im not sure who win between them .
Yet Iris was not fantasy's opponent, and I don't know that Bisu would have beat Jaedong. Unless you were sure of the latter, then I don't really think you have any legs to stand on with that argument, since it's all hollow speculation. Who is a tougher opponent? Jaedong or Iris?
flash vs fantasy in bo5 , can u ever think fantasy can win ? flash is the best tvt of all time . flash vs bisu in b05 , bisu is the favourite .
There is quite a gap between Flash's TvT and his other matchups right now, for starters (and fantasy is supposedly a "BoX player", so I think he's in a better position than you assume). Not to mention a single, hypothetical Bo5 between any given two players is not nearly enough to base a PR rank on (Player A > Player B > Player C > Player A for instance). It's really only of use if their records are very close, and quite frankly, they aren't right now. Bisu still deserves a spot on the PR at the moment, methinks, but there is absolutely no way he's had a better month (or past two months, for that matter) than fantasy.
bisu is just better , the 0 3 in batoo doesnt mean everything .
Why? Because you don't want it to? It's way out of our frame of reference anyways, so I don't see why you brought it up.
I'm afraid your whole post was a set of statements that didn't fit together into any one criteria, and so any particular way of judging the PR will eliminate the majority of your post's content.
guys stop posting and flaming each other so much. fantasy is obviously a top player right now just like effort was a couple months ago and just like calm also is now. if there's a meaningful distinction to be made it's between these players who are showing skill and results but not necessarily demonstrating their ability to stick around and become champions over and over again like bisu or jaedong.
On August 25 2009 04:40 o[twist] wrote: guys stop posting and flaming each other so much. fantasy is obviously a top player right now just like effort was a couple months ago and just like calm also is now. if there's a meaningful distinction to be made it's between these players who are showing skill and results but not necessarily demonstrating their ability to stick around and become champions over and over again like bisu or jaedong.
SKT inner fight, i love it ^^ why would they stop?
On August 25 2009 04:40 o[twist] wrote: guys stop posting and flaming each other so much. fantasy is obviously a top player right now just like effort was a couple months ago and just like calm also is now. if there's a meaningful distinction to be made it's between these players who are showing skill and results but not necessarily demonstrating their ability to stick around and become champions over and over again like bisu or jaedong.
SKT inner fight, i love it ^^ why would they stop?
I, and insofar as I am part of this debate, am actually not an SKT1 fan in particular. I once considered Fantasy a flavor of the month phenomenon and have only slowly, but surely, come around to realizing that he plays exceptionally well. Day 1 Game 1 of the PL finals was a real turning point for me- I simply loved that game.
Also while I generally agree with what you said o[twist], I would say that Fantasy did not explode quite like Effort did. Fantasy has been getting some serious recognition here for a greater span of time and at least a few months before Effort did, at least at TL, I conjecture. (Though some Effort fan should correct me if I'm wrong here).
if we follow your idea Hieros , if jaedong doesnt play one single game in september , he will be OUT of top 10 PR ?
i want to understand something , in some ranking , the 1#spot is for the BEST player right ? its the objective of ELO or kespa right ? to determinate THE best player . am i right ?
we dont care if fantasy played more games than bisu . we care about fantasy showed or not that he has became better than bisu .
by the way , im STX and Estro fan nylan .
my favourite player is jaedong my most hated player is bisu
I HATE bisu , so I DONT WANT HIM in the top PR .
im just OBJECTIVE .
its NOT ALL ABOUT RESULTS .
stork is 9 7 vs bisu , is stork better ?
fantasy has shown great games recently , vs jaedong and hiya ( the tvt vs hiya PL finals was one of the highest lvl of SC i have ever seen ) doest it prove clearly that he is better than bisu ?
just NO ..
calm is doing great for a long time now , he has became a BEAST for 3 4 month now . he has shown CLEARLY that he is now better than some effort canata iris or even yellow[arnc] .
the #2 #3 #4 spots are hard to choose , i can agree with that , but the case bisu > fantasy is really clear for me .
bisu is the ONLY player who can claim to be as good as jaedong . i personnaly think JD is clearly better , but once again , if you think objectivly , bisu can claim that .
and calm is playing SC for a few years now , fantasy only for maybe a year or two maybe ?
calm is a more experienced player .
and you can tell all you want about my pathetic argument , but SC is ALL about koreans .
if all korea say bisu is the best P of history , being disagree would be ignorant and newbie . ( in my opinion , stork is better , but i KNOW im wrong ) SC is korea . if tomorrow korea dissapears , SC just die in about a few month .
bisu is known in korea to be the best player right now with jaedong , many journalists ask him about his JD/him rivalrly , he answer his rival is stork . have you ever eard about JD/fantasy rivalry ? its only JD/flash rivalry .
in every JD/fantasy game , jaedong was ALWAYS the CLEAR favourite . in every JD/bisu game NOBODY was CLEAR favourite .
you just can't have other opinion than korea about the level of XXXX , if you have , you are just wrong .
while i agree fantasy has been around for awhile, having made the semifinals of two straight osls, it's only recently that a consensus has emerged that he's the strongest terran (not that i necessarily even buy that given there's flash and iris and leta)
What is this nonsense? Bisu is probably the best Protoss player ever. So what? Bisu lost to Iris 2-3 in MSL, beat perfectman (a total rookie) and 2-1ed a slumping free in wcg.
Meanwhile, Fantasy took out Jaedong twice in the proleague (setting sktt1 up for an overwhelming 4-0 rape on day 1 and finishing it off in the ace match on day 2), lost to a Golden Mouse hungry Jaedong 1-2, beat a nobody Arisol 2-0 and looked strong as hell vs a powerful kal 2-1 in wcg.
If Jaedong plays 0 games in September, it depends on why he didn't play any games. If it were due to scheduling and the fact that his team hasn't been playing because he's already in the grand finals, then obviously he deserves a high rank. If he choked at the end of the season and his team isn't in proleague and he didn't qualify for the prestigious individual leagues, then out he goes.
Just because they play starcraft in Korea doesn't mean that we in America cannot analyze their play or watch their games. What kind of inane argument is that?
The power rank isn't just about who's the best. It's about who performed well during the last month and gives a small nod to those who have been performing consistently. Bisu is probably better than Fantasy. Does this mean he deserves a higher power rank? Absolutely not.
All the fighting aside, I've always wanted to make the PR totally about how is the best right now. But then someone mentioned that PR would be incredibly boring because it would never change every month, people like Bisu, Fantasy, Jaedong would always stay on the top. It's a good point. But its bad to make the PR totally based on monthly performance too. Lets say Perfectman beat rookies 8-0 in 1 month, while someone like Flash beat tough opponents and had a record of 6-2 in another month. Of course, the 8-0 record is always going to look better than 6-2 but we KNOW that Flash is a better player than Perfectman so thats why we always try to find a balance in the PR between the strongest at the moment, and the monthly performances.
Too bad its not my PR, if it was my PR, I would only need to update the PR once a year maybe. Because I will always make it about who is the best player of that month, and disregard the monthly performances.
It's a tough balance between 'who performed the best this month' and 'who are the current best Starcraft players'. It's why so many people blew up at JWD this month for dropping Flash - a lot of people feel that one mediocre month shouldn't make someone of his caliber (undeniably Top 5 in skill, some would say #2 or 3) drop entirely off the PR - I agree.
If you go too far towards the 'who performed the best last month' route, you would have to drop someone like Jaedong if he played two games and went 0-2. Of course that's completely idiotic, and everyone knows it.
The other way, though, every month the top slots would be Jaedong, Bisu, Flash, Fantasy (not necessarily in that order), and it would be harder to acknowledge up-and-coming players who are doing amazing.
It's always a tough job to balance the two. It also helps if the PR writers make sure to take off their team *COUGHSKT1COUGH* glasses when they make it, but no matter what it'll never be perfect since it's an arbitrary balance between those two extremes.
My personal opinion, I think Fantasy should be > Bisu next month, and I'm not sure which of them is a 'better player' at the moment, although I suspect it's probably still Bisu. They're close in skill, but Fantasy posted far better results. But Bisu should still be high on the rank.
On August 25 2009 17:47 Hinanawi wrote: It's always a tough job to balance the two. It also helps if the PR writers make sure to take off their team *COUGHSKT1COUGH* glasses when they make it, but no matter what it'll never be perfect since it's an arbitrary balance between those two extremes.
I don't know about that. I really enjoy the power rank + Show Spoiler +
Just because they play starcraft in Korea doesn't mean that we in America cannot analyze their play or watch their games. What kind of inane argument is that?
you can watch and analyse their games , i do it everyday . but as a fan of starcraft , you MUST be attentive at what korea says , and if you hear something that you disagree with , you must ask yourself you may be in the wrong .
all SC has been invented by 80% korea . SC is korea . that's simple .
On August 04 2009 00:24 JWD wrote: I'm getting pretty tired of the same old "Flash is really good, he just loses all of his games" line.
Flash's 1v1 record at the moment:
Over 65% in his weakest matchup, 70% in his mirror, just raped the 2nd or 3rd best Zerg player 2-0 with his weakest matchup, highest overall winning percentage of any player at the moment (including Jaedong).
But surely he's just been racking up wins against scrubs who aren't worth any points! Watch, I'll bet he's low on ELO because he can't beat good players:
Oh...oh dear. Looks like he's actually in 1st by a large margin and at his personal all-time highs in vT and vZ.
Maybe you can find it in your heart to give Flash a modest #10 spot next month?
If not, I understand, I mean he DID drop one game to Iris, which is absolutely unacceptable. Also, if he drops even one game against Bisu 2 days from now then he's absolute garbage and we should definitely keep him off the PR another month.
yea flash's tvz looked prety damm impressive again, like from his prime when he was playing dead even with jeadong at his best losing in the msl but winning the osl and gom over him.
On August 25 2009 22:44 4Servy wrote: yea flash's tvz looked prety damm impressive again, like from his prime when he was playing dead even with jeadong at his best losing in the msl but winning the osl and gom over him.
I think the part of Flash's TvZ that has been questioned lately is his ability to handle aggressive early game zergs (Yarnc's 2 hatch muta, Kwanrollurkers ...). To be honest, today's games didn't answer much on that front. Effort went for muta harass which Flash fended off without breaking a sweat, but I get the feeling Effort wasn't playing to his own strengths with that. Flash vs Kwanro rematch might've been more interesting.
Flash's late game has always been solid, and even the series against July proved of that. Despite claims that July played bad, a large part (not all --- July also made obvious mistakes) was due to Flash's way of totally shutting down the zerg's offensive machinery, making the zerg look worse than he actually is. Today was more of the same, albeit against a stronger opponent.
flash obviously deserves to be on PR, it was poor judgment to keep him off last month. i'm not expecting to be much happier this month based on jwd's comments in other threads though.
On August 04 2009 00:24 JWD wrote: I'm getting pretty tired of the same old "Flash is really good, he just loses all of his games" line.
...
Maybe you can find it in your heart to give Flash a modest #10 spot next month?
If not, I understand, I mean he DID drop one game to Iris, which is absolutely unacceptable. Also, if he drops even one game against Bisu 2 days from now then he's absolute garbage and we should definitely keep him off the PR another month.
I love this guy.
I'll admit that Flash vs July was not a particularly good showing of defense against a strong early game zerg. As for Flash vs Effort, I think Flash just made it look easy in their Outsider game. I still need to rewatch it, but I remember thinking that his unit positioning when the mutas first came out was amazing.
i say just ignore vampyr, he is just rooting for the big names without any idea of the games the players played. bisu gets his ASS handed to him by iris on a silver platter, and somehow he is rank 3. fantasy demolishes in osl, proleague and ends up lower than bisu. you have stork who hasnt done much except play wcg, some proleague, and fail out of the starleagues get the #10 spot over iris who has been playing spectacularly up until his games against kwanro....
you really don't watch results you are just a dumbass troll vampyr
the fans in korea are just the same as the fans in the US, we root for the players we love. and unless the boards are progamers telling us this or that or who is the strongest players at the moment, fuck what the fans say, doesnt matter much.
On August 26 2009 02:14 piratebay wrote: i say just ignore vampyr, he is just rooting for the big names without any idea of the games the players played. bisu gets his ASS handed to him by iris on a silver platter, and somehow he is rank 3. fantasy demolishes in osl, proleague and ends up lower than bisu. you have stork who hasnt done much except play wcg, some proleague, and fail out of the starleagues get the #10 spot over iris who has been playing spectacularly up until his games against kwanro....
you really don't watch results you are just a dumbass troll vampyr
the fans in korea are just the same as the fans in the US, we root for the players we love. and unless the boards are progamers telling us this or that or who is the strongest players at the moment, fuck what the fans say, doesnt matter much.
you made me laught a lot ^^ i watch more korean games than you for sure , i know everything happened in the games of this months . the games in august can tell me who is better than who . and bisu is still better than fantasy ^^ .
and dont talk about someting you dont know , korean have all their favourite players , but no one is korea would say X is better than jaedong or bisu . fantasy showed really great games , i like fantasy a lot now , i know what im talking about . i have some korean friend who know the korean scene more than everyone on TL , so i think im starting to know the scene really well now .
you can love rafael nadal , andy murray , djokovic or who you want , YOU MUST admit federer is the best . nadal is my favourite , but i know federer is better .
fantasy is my favourite , but i know bisu is better . its not hard to get this .
P.S : i didnt insult anyone , so please calm down .
I really don't know why I'm replying to you again, but you are aware that there is a fairly sized contingent of Koreans on TL, and staff/writers in Korea, right?
With that in mind, your statement dissolves into a contradiction.
Also the notion that everyone in a country agrees on a well-ordered list of better to worse players is patently absurd.
Whatever this Fantasy vs Bisu nonsense is, will be settled when they play against Stork/Flash in WCG. Then let's continue this conversation.
From my perspective both players got bounced in the same fashion, with Bisu playing slightly better in his MSL loss than Fantasy's OSL loss, but Fantasy has a couple more clutch wins in PL playoffs to his advantage. We'll see in a couple days who's done better this month.
Kwanro is the real deal. Beating his teammate Iris in a Bo5 ZvT, beating leta 2-0 in WCG and two series wins over zero for a total of 9-3 in August. If he's not on the power rank this time something is terribly wrong.
Vampyr, you have no basis in why Bisu should be on top. Those games he prepared for (he had plenty of time to show his best skill), he failed. He hasnt played that many games this month yes, but he hasnt proven anything either, he might not bee as good, he might have his slump starting now for all we know?? because he has not PROVEN anything! Fantasy has showed great strength, he might begin his power reign into the Jaedong S-class this month, because of his wins and that he actually delivered wins in his games!! you dont know the future, this is the start of the future. This month's results decide the POWER rank. This month, Fantasy has shown to be stronger than Bisu. its about this months matches, not about what your korean friend tells you or who is overall history wise won most titles or who is the favorite among the koreans. Fantasy was better this month, deal with it ^^
On August 26 2009 06:20 ThePhan2m wrote: Vampyr, you have no basis in why Bisu should be on top. Those games he prepared for (he had plenty of time to show his best skill), he failed. He hasnt played that many games this month yes, but he hasnt proven anything either, he might not bee as good, he might have his slump starting now for all we know?? because he has not PROVEN anything! Fantasy has showed great strength, he might begin his power reign into the Jaedong S-class this month, because of his wins and that he actually delivered wins in his games!! you dont know the future, this is the start of the future. This month's results decide the POWER rank. This month, Fantasy has shown to be stronger than Bisu. its about this months matches, not about what your korean friend tells you or who is overall history wise won most titles or who is the favorite among the koreans. Fantasy was better this month, deal with it ^^
he was not better . he just played more games . thats different .
u wanna tell me about bisu lose vs iris ? fantasy get raped by jaedong in a pathetic way in my opinion . he has showed he is still some oov puppet without any reflexion himself .
bisu lost 3 2 vs iris fantasy get RAPED by JD 3 1 iris vs bisu was really closer than JD/fantasy .
bisu vs free and perfectman show me bisu is still at his level . fantasy vs JD hiya and kal show me fantasy is getting really more and more good , but not as good as some S-class .
tell me where fantasy has proven to us he is better . in the MSL quarters maybe ?
there is NOTHING in the fantasy games that show somehow fantasy became better than bisu .
the PR is about who is better AT THE TIME , in this month like you said .
at the time , we DONT have the proof that fantasy became better . so bisu is still above him .
if federer dont play next month and nadal play , even if nadal win good matches , no one will say "HEY NADAL HAS BECAME BETTER ITS BIG" .
SHOW ME THE EVIDENCE FANTASY BECAME BETTER .
calm showed evidence he is now better than all the PR except maybe fantasy and bisu . flash is showing he is back at good level . i think he will even more . but he dont deserve to be above fantasy or yellow arnc yet . next months for sure . fantasy didnt showed yet he is clearly better than bisu .
I PREFER A LOT FANTASY TO BISU , IM JUST OBJECTIVE . I HATE BISU I HATE BISU I HATE BISU
For me, i couldn't care less who is higher, fantasy or bisu.
all I can hope for is that flash's gom win and ownage of effort will put him on the CNBC. Finger's crossed he MAY creep into #10. That would be good. Prolly worth partying about it too if it happens
On August 26 2009 03:47 vaMpYr wrote: fantasy is my favourite , but i know bisu is better . its not hard to get this .
vaMpYr wrote: fantasy get raped by jaedong in a pathetic way in my opinion . he has showed he is still some oov puppet without any reflexion himself .
vaMpYr wrote: fantasy vs JD... show me fantasy is getting really more and more good
I won't even comment on it but I don't know what you're talking about... You're using Bisu's games against Free & Perfectman to demonstrate that he has played better then Fantasy this month. To use your tennis analogy, this is like Federer beating a small child and someone who broke his arm. Fantasy has had the harder competition.
I get your point about Bisu just not playing as many games, but honestly I think that's just not an excuse when you take Fantasy's clutch play in the proleague finals. JD is the better player IMO, it's not embarassing to lose to him... after that first game in the OSL who really thought Jaedong would beat Fantasy that quickly?
Fantasy's losses were against JD and Kal... that's a pretty respectable loss list... I'm not saying that Bisu's loss list is worse (Iris & Free), but if you ask me who's played more impressively THIS month, it has to be Fantasy... Bisu has not done nearly enough in August to convince me that he should move up PAST Fantasy in the power rank, if Bisu was 2nd in July... I could see him KEEPING the 2nd spot.
In the end, the upcoming WCG matches will be pretty fun to watch... although I personally don't put a lot of stock in WCG.
Would be interesting who is the number one next month. Probably Jaedong but I'd say he does not really deserve it. Noone who looses that many games is the number 1. He has a 10-9 record this month until today and that just does not cut it.
I mean, yeah loosing 9 games isnät looking to pretty, but seriously, if you are in PL grandfinals, OSL semi+final and MSL final, you are going to drop games, it isn't like your opponents are terrible (apart from hyuk) and you are gonna have less practice time than them.
Haha come on Flash fans, I think it was legit to take Flash off the PR last month. I mean, he's always going to be underrated relative to impossible expectations, and besides we all expect him to play better than he has in the last three starleagues (ughhhhh). It was just dumb for people to say "Flash sucks" but JWD never said that, and he was right that Flash always loses (in the Starleagues).
We all knew Flash would bounce back and roll this month because he always does. He's clearly still the best late game TvZ player out there (and possibly the best TvZ player period seeing as how every Terran seems to be pretty bad against Zerg these days compared to the old T > Z days), and plays FvT. Hopefully he squeaks out a win against Bisu (a guy who Flash has always been good against until recently).
But the ELO stuff is a bit excessive - ELO 2200 is a really really good cutoff between players who are good and players who are great, but going deep in leagues increases the risk of losing 3 games in a short period of time so I wouldn't put too much stock into much more than whether a player is > 2200 or not.
Anyway, depending on JWD feels (comments like "Iris was Flash's only hard opponent in GOM" don't bode well haha) and WCG, Flash deserves to be anywhere from 4th to 8th. Either way, he'll never get the respect he deserves until he wins another MSL/OSL so what can you do until that happens again?
Flash should've been on the list for the same reason Bisu was. He's still 'hypothetically' good!!!
We went through that argument in detail though. People just hold Flash to a different standard. It wasn't enough that he destroyed the hardest Starleague line up in history, nah he has to do that every starleague!
Stork might deserve a low spot on PR next month, that was a pretty impressive rolling of Fantasy tonight. Showing he's still got the magic touch in PvT.
On August 26 2009 15:36 Orbifold wrote: I don't see how anyone could argue with JD=1 unless something really crazy happens before the next rank.
If he retires he should probably be taken off, though leaving him on out of respect works for me.
Unless I misunderstood this... No, if he retires he should obviously STAY on the upcoming Power Ranking because he's participated in and finished all of the tournaments this month. We're judging his performance this month, and for the most part, with the exception of WCG, all big tournaments have concluded.
Furthermore, we won't hear a final decision until the end of the month, so by the very end of August, Jaedong will still be a pro. I see absolutely no reason why he should be "probably" taken off the Power ranking.
Not sure if Fantasy should be #2 or #3 after his loss to Stork today. Also, Flash is fast becoming the Monster he once was back in 2008 (good to see you back in form Flash! ^^). At this rate, he's going to climb to #2 or #1 very soon.
Not sure if Fantasy should be #2 or #3 after his loss to Stork today. Also, Flash is fast becoming the Monster he once was back in 2008 (good to see you back in form Flash! ^^). At this rate, he's going to climb to #2 or #1 very soon.
Kwanro actually might take the MSL so dont rush to palce him in the second half of the rankings
Not sure if Fantasy should be #2 or #3 after his loss to Stork today. Also, Flash is fast becoming the Monster he once was back in 2008 (good to see you back in form Flash! ^^). At this rate, he's going to climb to #2 or #1 very soon.
fantasy should be lower kwanro should be higher than iris and flash bisu should be higher yarnc should be higher stork should be #9 and effort #10
the PR is really something subjective in the end ^^ .
Definitely have to wait for the finals to place Calm/Kwanro.
And although Stork handed Fantasy's ass to him, you have to remember that Stork is a PvT specialist and a bad showing in wcg isn't even close to negating his great show in proleague and decent performance in OSL vs Jaedong.
Yeah fantasy deserves the second spot, but u cant say that his performancer in the OSL vs Jaedong was decent.. it was bad for him, awful... He is better than that, the 5 pool and then the wall in was just a bad way to play. For me next PR: 1- Jaedong 2- fantasy 3- Calm/Kwanro (winer) 4- Iris 5- Calm/Kwanro (loser) 6- Bisu 7- Flash 8- YellOw[ArnC] 9- Stork 10- EffOrt
Its hard cus this month a lot of players didnt play to much. Edit: Yeah but this is my opinion for now (until today)
Expecting Flash to win Korea WCG and hoping that a pseudo double title will get him in the top 3 again. We all know he's the favorite over anyone in TvT, and he's just proven that his TvZ, when he does what he should, is monstrous. Now he just has to roll a good protoss or two to show that GOM wasn't a fluke. This WCG's line up could end up being technically harder than his Bacchus run on paper, and if he takes down some ungodly combo of Effort/Bisu/Jaedong/Stork then, hopefully, people will come around.
It's all speculation, but it's about time Flash show people again why he was the #1 terran.
4-6 against the toughest competition (jaedong and PvT Stork woooo, only person who'd be more difficult is Flash's TvT and maybe Jangbi in form) and the weakest competition, amusingly, with half of his 4 wins going against an amateur. Of course his last ten games cuts off RIGHT after his monster 6 game streak with 3 wins over JD.
let's see how flash does against bisu but if he does well he'll have owned a top terran, a top zerg, and THE top protoss this month. hard to deny him a mid-PR spot after that
lol top zerg and top terran? effort is below jaedong and calm and maybe even kwanro and his zvt is his worst matchup statistically. iris is not consistent enough to be a top terran. He keeps dropping games to random noobs like odin and perfectman.
Also, it's only wcg. Doubtless, the players want to win, but I don't think that they put in the same effort they put into proleague or individual leagues.
Everytime Flash wins it's because who he's playing is bad or doesn't try, apparently. ugh
Before his game with Flash his ZvT was pretty much statistically equal to his ZvZ (27-16 to 28-16), and not to mention his recent, highly excusable loss to Iris for which he had absolutely no practice and didn't even get to really play. Stop making excuses to discredit Flash, Effort was quite recently called S-Class ZvT by a lot of people. It seems symptomatic to somehow find excuses for Flash's wins, ever since his cheddar terran days.
On August 27 2009 03:58 ghostWriter wrote: lol top zerg and top terran? effort is below jaedong and calm and maybe even kwanro and his zvt is his worst matchup statistically. iris is not consistent enough to be a top terran. He keeps dropping games to random noobs like odin and perfectman.
Also, it's only wcg. Doubtless, the players want to win, but I don't think that they put in the same effort they put into proleague or individual leagues.
just a month or two ago i was reading that ZvT was effort's strongest matchup. i said "a top zerg" which is completely undeniable. flash steamrolled iris in a finals match that showed the best TvT in history. come on
Hell just earlier in this thread, GhostWriter was being an apologist for Effort's ZvT losses, saying he's still very good but it was flukish for him to lose to Iris. But when Flash beats Effort? BOY THAT KID, SO BAD, WCG IS BAD TOURNEY
JD is the first player since Boxer to win back to back OSLs and has become the youngest winner of a golden mouse ever. Despite his Proleague colapse and clear lack of MSL preparation, I think it's a disservice to his accomplishments to give him anything but the #1 spot.
I've really come to dislike Fantasy, but I can still see him at #2 for being T1's backbone vs. Oz. I think the way he lost his composure and played like pure shit in set3 and set4 of the OSL semis is indication enough that he's still at least a step behind JD.
I love Iris, but he should pretty clearly be below Flash imo. The Bisu win was very impressive, but the way he fell apart vs. Kwanro was pretty inexcusable . Maybe I just feel this way since his win over Bisu was so early in the ranking period...
I expect the rank to look like:
1. Jaedong 2. Fantasy 3. MSL winner 4. Bisu/Flash winner 5. MSL loser 6. Bisu/Flash loser 7. Iris 8. Yarc 9. Stork 10. Effort
with possibly 2 and 3 switched, 4 and 5 switched, 7 and 8 switched, and/or a different 10 due to Effort's lack of noteworthy games over the period. I just can't see anyone else @ 10, there just aren't enough games (cept for Luxury's 4 game win WCG win streak, WOOOO GO LUX!!!)
On August 27 2009 04:34 TwoToneTerran wrote: Hell just earlier in this thread, GhostWriter was being an apologist for Effort's ZvT losses, saying he's still very good but it was flukish for him to lose to Iris. But when Flash beats Effort? BOY THAT KID, SO BAD, WCG IS BAD TOURNEY
Standard thinking at TL. Player is good only till he losses to Flash. Once Flash win against him it means that the guy is just over-hyped and/or is slumping and his XvT match-up his his worst one.
Also, Flash performs well in a tournament it means it is not important, like proleague, Gom, WCG. Even if he was owning in OSL people would say he has weak competition, or that OSL that season sucks...
On August 27 2009 04:43 Mogwai wrote: JD is the first player since Boxer to win back to back OSLs and has become the youngest winner of a golden mouse ever. Despite his Proleague colapse and clear lack of MSL preparation, I think it's a disservice to his accomplishments to give him anything but the #1 spot.
I've really come to dislike Fantasy, but I can still see him at #2 for being T1's backbone vs. Oz. I think the way he lost his composure and played like pure shit in set3 and set4 of the OSL semis is indication enough that he's still at least a step behind JD.
I love Iris, but he should pretty clearly be below Flash imo. The Bisu win was very impressive, but the way he fell apart vs. Kwanro was pretty inexcusable . Maybe I just feel this way since his win over Bisu was so early in the ranking period...
I expect the rank to look like:
1. Jaedong 2. Fantasy 3. MSL winner 4. Bisu/Flash winner 5. MSL loser 6. Bisu/Flash loser 7. Iris 8. Yarc 9. Stork 10. Effort
with possibly 2 and 3 switched, 4 and 5 switched, 7 and 8 switched, and/or a different 10 due to Effort's lack of noteworthy games over the period. I just can't see anyone else @ 10, there just aren't enough games (cept for Luxury's 4 game win WCG win streak, WOOOO GO LUX!!!)
i CANT be more agree with you <3 . you really did some good post here .
your PR is pretty good , but i would personnaly do this :
1 jaedong 2 MSL winner 3 bisu/flash winner 4 fantasy 5 MSL loser 6 bisu/flash loser 7 yarnc 8 iris 9 stork 10 effort
On August 27 2009 04:43 Mogwai wrote: JD is the first player since Boxer to win back to back OSLs and has become the youngest winner of a golden mouse ever. Despite his Proleague colapse and clear lack of MSL preparation, I think it's a disservice to his accomplishments to give him anything but the #1 spot.
I've really come to dislike Fantasy, but I can still see him at #2 for being T1's backbone vs. Oz. I think the way he lost his composure and played like pure shit in set3 and set4 of the OSL semis is indication enough that he's still at least a step behind JD.
I love Iris, but he should pretty clearly be below Flash imo. The Bisu win was very impressive, but the way he fell apart vs. Kwanro was pretty inexcusable . Maybe I just feel this way since his win over Bisu was so early in the ranking period...
I expect the rank to look like:
1. Jaedong 2. Fantasy 3. MSL winner 4. Bisu/Flash winner 5. MSL loser 6. Bisu/Flash loser 7. Iris 8. Yarc 9. Stork 10. Effort
with possibly 2 and 3 switched, 4 and 5 switched, 7 and 8 switched, and/or a different 10 due to Effort's lack of noteworthy games over the period. I just can't see anyone else @ 10, there just aren't enough games (cept for Luxury's 4 game win WCG win streak, WOOOO GO LUX!!!)
Why? Fantasy is a decent guy, he's not bm or anything. Also, your rank is not bad, but it's been a pretty dry month since all the more prestigious leagues are over =/ I wouldn't put luxury up there though, his non-wcg performance has been abysmal, especially for the MSL winner, while effort's proleague performance was extraordinary. Also, given how stork just mauled Fantasy and made him look horrible, I might put him above yarnc as well. I know yarnc got to the finals in the osl but beating go.go and type-b doesn't really impress me that much and he made the osl finals the most boring finals ever. Jaedong just took him out, there was no point in any of the games where it looked like he had even a slight advantage.
Effort's spot on the PR is going to be entirely grandfathered in from last PR. Since last PR all he's done is gone 2-2, wins against Really and losses to Flash. Proleague wasn't even a factor for this month/pr. Same could go for Yarnc, really, since all he did was beat a weak player (type b) and get stomped by a strong one (JD).
I'm not actually against a player retaining PRship through common knowledge of how good he is, regardless of a mediocre, dry month. But we all know how finicky the prospect of benefit of the doubt can be.
On August 27 2009 17:52 TwoToneTerran wrote: Effort's spot on the PR is going to be entirely grandfathered in from last PR. Since last PR all he's done is gone 2-2, wins against Really and losses to Flash. Proleague wasn't even a factor for this month/pr. Same could go for Yarnc, really, since all he did was beat a weak player (type b) and get stomped by a strong one (JD).
I'm not actually against a player retaining PRship through common knowledge of how good he is, regardless of a mediocre, dry month. But we all know how finicky the prospect of benefit of the doubt can be.
The whole grandfathering makes sense, but only if there are < 10 solid/active performers. Which players should be grandfathered and what spot they get is going to be pretty subjective, though.
Effort also won blizzcon, at least I seem to remember that, anyway. If winning blizzcon is worth anything.
On August 27 2009 17:52 TwoToneTerran wrote: Effort's spot on the PR is going to be entirely grandfathered in from last PR. Since last PR all he's done is gone 2-2, wins against Really and losses to Flash. Proleague wasn't even a factor for this month/pr. Same could go for Yarnc, really, since all he did was beat a weak player (type b) and get stomped by a strong one (JD).
I'm not actually against a player retaining PRship through common knowledge of how good he is, regardless of a mediocre, dry month. But we all know how finicky the prospect of benefit of the doubt can be.
The whole grandfathering makes sense, but only if there are < 10 solid/active performers. Which players should be grandfathered and what spot they get is going to be pretty subjective, though.
Effort also won blizzcon, at least I seem to remember that, anyway. If winning blizzcon is worth anything.
Considering the top non-EffOrt player at Blizzcon was, uh...
lol watching stork vs. fantasy and thinking back to his games against upmagic and other games, it seems like he ALWAYS loses his fast nexus to a bunker and ALWAYS ends up winning anyway
On August 27 2009 04:43 Mogwai wrote: JD is the first player since Boxer to win back to back OSLs and has become the youngest winner of a golden mouse ever. Despite his Proleague colapse and clear lack of MSL preparation, I think it's a disservice to his accomplishments to give him anything but the #1 spot.
I've really come to dislike Fantasy, but I can still see him at #2 for being T1's backbone vs. Oz. I think the way he lost his composure and played like pure shit in set3 and set4 of the OSL semis is indication enough that he's still at least a step behind JD.
I love Iris, but he should pretty clearly be below Flash imo. The Bisu win was very impressive, but the way he fell apart vs. Kwanro was pretty inexcusable . Maybe I just feel this way since his win over Bisu was so early in the ranking period...
I expect the rank to look like:
1. Jaedong 2. Fantasy 3. MSL winner 4. Bisu/Flash winner 5. MSL loser 6. Bisu/Flash loser 7. Iris 8. Yarc 9. Stork 10. Effort
with possibly 2 and 3 switched, 4 and 5 switched, 7 and 8 switched, and/or a different 10 due to Effort's lack of noteworthy games over the period. I just can't see anyone else @ 10, there just aren't enough games (cept for Luxury's 4 game win WCG win streak, WOOOO GO LUX!!!)
Why? Fantasy is a decent guy, he's not bm or anything. Also, your rank is not bad, but it's been a pretty dry month since all the more prestigious leagues are over =/ I wouldn't put luxury up there though, his non-wcg performance has been abysmal, especially for the MSL winner, while effort's proleague performance was extraordinary. Also, given how stork just mauled Fantasy and made him look horrible, I might put him above yarnc as well. I know yarnc got to the finals in the osl but beating go.go and type-b doesn't really impress me that much and he made the osl finals the most boring finals ever. Jaedong just took him out, there was no point in any of the games where it looked like he had even a slight advantage.
oh, I don't really dislike Fantasy as a person or anything, I just fuckin' hate Vultures :p. I dunno, Fantasy's playstyle just emphasizes everything I hate about Terran. I guess it also bothers me with the whole way he handles himself in tough times. I think TL.net blows the OoV factor way out of proportion and are being unfair when they say shit like OoV/Boxer vs. Jaedong or w/e, but I still wish a player of his caliber could just handle himself after a loss and rebound. Perhaps it's not fair of me to expect that from him, I mean, everyone handles adversity differently, but I prefer the player who has the confidence to just say, "w/e cheezy bastard got me with a 4 pool" to himself rather than the one who needs his coach's reassurance.
I wasn't serious about luxury. I love the guy, but showing some decent play in WCG is definitely not enough to convince anyone that he's back to his MSL-winning form. I mean, after he roflstomps Bisu, there might be a case for putting him @ 10, but I still think it would be a disservice to not keep Effort on the list while being pretty much obligated to put Kwanro on the list...
Well, last night should have definitely cleared things up. After Fantasy's loss to Stork and Bisu's 2-1 dispatching of Flash, I'd say they're about even right now. Fantasy's Proleague stomping of Jaedong should win him enough points to make up for his lackluster performance in the OSL. Bisu's solid play against Flash should somewhat make up for his horrible failure against Iris. But if he manages to get 2-0'ed by Lux, then much is to be reconsidered.
On August 27 2009 04:43 Mogwai wrote: JD is the first player since Boxer to win back to back OSLs and has become the youngest winner of a golden mouse ever. Despite his Proleague colapse and clear lack of MSL preparation, I think it's a disservice to his accomplishments to give him anything but the #1 spot.
I've really come to dislike Fantasy, but I can still see him at #2 for being T1's backbone vs. Oz. I think the way he lost his composure and played like pure shit in set3 and set4 of the OSL semis is indication enough that he's still at least a step behind JD.
I love Iris, but he should pretty clearly be below Flash imo. The Bisu win was very impressive, but the way he fell apart vs. Kwanro was pretty inexcusable . Maybe I just feel this way since his win over Bisu was so early in the ranking period...
I expect the rank to look like:
1. Jaedong 2. Fantasy 3. MSL winner 4. Bisu/Flash winner 5. MSL loser 6. Bisu/Flash loser 7. Iris 8. Yarc 9. Stork 10. Effort
with possibly 2 and 3 switched, 4 and 5 switched, 7 and 8 switched, and/or a different 10 due to Effort's lack of noteworthy games over the period. I just can't see anyone else @ 10, there just aren't enough games (cept for Luxury's 4 game win WCG win streak, WOOOO GO LUX!!!)
Why? Fantasy is a decent guy, he's not bm or anything. Also, your rank is not bad, but it's been a pretty dry month since all the more prestigious leagues are over =/ I wouldn't put luxury up there though, his non-wcg performance has been abysmal, especially for the MSL winner, while effort's proleague performance was extraordinary. Also, given how stork just mauled Fantasy and made him look horrible, I might put him above yarnc as well. I know yarnc got to the finals in the osl but beating go.go and type-b doesn't really impress me that much and he made the osl finals the most boring finals ever. Jaedong just took him out, there was no point in any of the games where it looked like he had even a slight advantage.
Fantasy is not bm? Go read his recent interview, he is arrogant as hell
On August 27 2009 04:43 Mogwai wrote: JD is the first player since Boxer to win back to back OSLs and has become the youngest winner of a golden mouse ever. Despite his Proleague colapse and clear lack of MSL preparation, I think it's a disservice to his accomplishments to give him anything but the #1 spot.
I've really come to dislike Fantasy, but I can still see him at #2 for being T1's backbone vs. Oz. I think the way he lost his composure and played like pure shit in set3 and set4 of the OSL semis is indication enough that he's still at least a step behind JD.
I love Iris, but he should pretty clearly be below Flash imo. The Bisu win was very impressive, but the way he fell apart vs. Kwanro was pretty inexcusable . Maybe I just feel this way since his win over Bisu was so early in the ranking period...
I expect the rank to look like:
1. Jaedong 2. Fantasy 3. MSL winner 4. Bisu/Flash winner 5. MSL loser 6. Bisu/Flash loser 7. Iris 8. Yarc 9. Stork 10. Effort
with possibly 2 and 3 switched, 4 and 5 switched, 7 and 8 switched, and/or a different 10 due to Effort's lack of noteworthy games over the period. I just can't see anyone else @ 10, there just aren't enough games (cept for Luxury's 4 game win WCG win streak, WOOOO GO LUX!!!)
Why? Fantasy is a decent guy, he's not bm or anything. Also, your rank is not bad, but it's been a pretty dry month since all the more prestigious leagues are over =/ I wouldn't put luxury up there though, his non-wcg performance has been abysmal, especially for the MSL winner, while effort's proleague performance was extraordinary. Also, given how stork just mauled Fantasy and made him look horrible, I might put him above yarnc as well. I know yarnc got to the finals in the osl but beating go.go and type-b doesn't really impress me that much and he made the osl finals the most boring finals ever. Jaedong just took him out, there was no point in any of the games where it looked like he had even a slight advantage.
Fantasy is not bm? Go read his recent interview, he is arrogant as hell
Fantasy's press statements are all devised by Oov anyways.
On August 27 2009 17:52 TwoToneTerran wrote: Effort's spot on the PR is going to be entirely grandfathered in from last PR. Since last PR all he's done is gone 2-2, wins against Really and losses to Flash. Proleague wasn't even a factor for this month/pr. Same could go for Yarnc, really, since all he did was beat a weak player (type b) and get stomped by a strong one (JD).
I'm not actually against a player retaining PRship through common knowledge of how good he is, regardless of a mediocre, dry month. But we all know how finicky the prospect of benefit of the doubt can be.
The whole grandfathering makes sense, but only if there are < 10 solid/active performers. Which players should be grandfathered and what spot they get is going to be pretty subjective, though.
Effort also won blizzcon, at least I seem to remember that, anyway. If winning blizzcon is worth anything.
Considering the top non-EffOrt player at Blizzcon was, uh...
Zero? Nada? Ret? No, I don't think it does.
lol! It proves he doesnt choke when he needs to win. Blizzcon was still a nice tourney win and was the most signifant win since last PR except OSL final
Bisu did nothing since last powerrank (2 map win over flash) Skyhigh (absolute zero since last powerrank huge fail blizzcon) Iris (huge suckouts vs flash and kwamro) Type-b (.........) canata (pld nothing) Yarn (losses and more losses since last PR) Fantasy (nothing but losses since last PR)
On August 27 2009 17:52 TwoToneTerran wrote: Effort's spot on the PR is going to be entirely grandfathered in from last PR. Since last PR all he's done is gone 2-2, wins against Really and losses to Flash. Proleague wasn't even a factor for this month/pr. Same could go for Yarnc, really, since all he did was beat a weak player (type b) and get stomped by a strong one (JD).
I'm not actually against a player retaining PRship through common knowledge of how good he is, regardless of a mediocre, dry month. But we all know how finicky the prospect of benefit of the doubt can be.
The whole grandfathering makes sense, but only if there are < 10 solid/active performers. Which players should be grandfathered and what spot they get is going to be pretty subjective, though.
Effort also won blizzcon, at least I seem to remember that, anyway. If winning blizzcon is worth anything.
Considering the top non-EffOrt player at Blizzcon was, uh...
Zero? Nada? Ret? No, I don't think it does.
lol! It proves he doesnt choke when he needs to win. Blizzcon was still a nice tourney win and was the most signifant win since last PR except OSL final
Bisu did nothing since last powerrank (2 map win over flash) Skyhigh (absolute zero since last powerrank huge fail blizzcon) Iris (huge suckouts vs flash and kwamro) Type-b (.........) canata (pld nothing) Yarn (losses and more losses since last PR) Fantasy (nothing but losses since last PR)
PR without fantasy is NOT possible PR without iris is NOT possible luxury has NOTHING to do in PR PR without yarnc is NOT possible bisu should be now #2 or #3 after his wins over flash ( and very soon a big 2 0 rape of luxury )
i predict bisu > luxury and jaedong > stork then jaedong > bisu and stork > luxury
for MSL its calm 3 0 kwanro humilation
so it should be something like this : 1 jaedong 2 calm 3 bisu 4 fantasy 5 kwanro 6 yellow[arnc] 7 flash 8 iris 9 stork 10 effort
On August 27 2009 04:43 Mogwai wrote: JD is the first player since Boxer to win back to back OSLs and has become the youngest winner of a golden mouse ever. Despite his Proleague colapse and clear lack of MSL preparation, I think it's a disservice to his accomplishments to give him anything but the #1 spot.
I've really come to dislike Fantasy, but I can still see him at #2 for being T1's backbone vs. Oz. I think the way he lost his composure and played like pure shit in set3 and set4 of the OSL semis is indication enough that he's still at least a step behind JD.
I love Iris, but he should pretty clearly be below Flash imo. The Bisu win was very impressive, but the way he fell apart vs. Kwanro was pretty inexcusable . Maybe I just feel this way since his win over Bisu was so early in the ranking period...
I expect the rank to look like:
1. Jaedong 2. Fantasy 3. MSL winner 4. Bisu/Flash winner 5. MSL loser 6. Bisu/Flash loser 7. Iris 8. Yarc 9. Stork 10. Effort
with possibly 2 and 3 switched, 4 and 5 switched, 7 and 8 switched, and/or a different 10 due to Effort's lack of noteworthy games over the period. I just can't see anyone else @ 10, there just aren't enough games (cept for Luxury's 4 game win WCG win streak, WOOOO GO LUX!!!)
Why? Fantasy is a decent guy, he's not bm or anything. Also, your rank is not bad, but it's been a pretty dry month since all the more prestigious leagues are over =/ I wouldn't put luxury up there though, his non-wcg performance has been abysmal, especially for the MSL winner, while effort's proleague performance was extraordinary. Also, given how stork just mauled Fantasy and made him look horrible, I might put him above yarnc as well. I know yarnc got to the finals in the osl but beating go.go and type-b doesn't really impress me that much and he made the osl finals the most boring finals ever. Jaedong just took him out, there was no point in any of the games where it looked like he had even a slight advantage.
Fantasy is not bm? Go read his recent interview, he is arrogant as hell
I dunno, I reread it and it doesn't seem so bad to me. Also, you have to realize that translators are fallible. I didn't read the original to check for mistakes, but everyone makes mistakes and they can easily put in meaning or lose meaning from statements during translation. Sometimes it's difficult to find a fitting phrase.
On August 28 2009 10:00 TwoToneTerran wrote: I'm not sure how you could mistake that article. It seemed put very bluntly that he fully expected to beat Stork because it was TvP.
Your next opponent is (P)Stork. ▲ I practiced TvP a lot lately so I feel confident*. I will definitely get to the semifinals and have a rematch with (Z)Jaedong
"I will definitely make it to the semifinals" = I will win. And "I praticed TvP a lot lately so I feel confident" means he's saying he will win because it's TvP.
There was even an editor's note pointing out how he used a saying to describe his specific confidence in beating Stork. It's like he forgets that Stork was the guy who started him on his silver streak.
holy shit i just watched game three of flash v. bisu. incredible play, i know it's just wcg but they both deserve significant placement on this PR imo.
On August 28 2009 10:47 TwoToneTerran wrote: Your next opponent is (P)Stork. ▲ I practiced TvP a lot lately so I feel confident*. I will definitely get to the semifinals and have a rematch with (Z)Jaedong
"I will definitely make it to the semifinals" = I will win. And "I praticed TvP a lot lately so I feel confident" means he's saying he will win because it's TvP.
There was even an editor's note pointing out how he used a saying to describe his specific confidence in beating Stork. It's like he forgets that Stork was the guy who started him on his silver streak.
Like I said, translators can make mistakes. I read it as "I definitely want to reach the round of 4 so that I can have a rematch with Jaedong". And a lot of players say "I definitely will make it to the next round" or something similar to show their fans that they're confident, not because they're cocky. You have some kind of excuse for every one of Flash's losses, but you take a slightly mistranslated section in an interview as proof that fantasy is "bm". If that's not a bias, I don't know what is. And there's nothing wrong with saying that he's confident in his TvP, he has many wins against top protoss players to back up that statement.
The remaining WCG games will have a major effect on the ranks since Bisu and Jaedong are still in it. If Bisu goes through as the first seed I could see him in first place in the next PR; otherwise, obviously Jaedong should be first.
3/4 - Kwanro/Calm depending on who wins the MSL.
5 - Flash
I have no idea how to sort out the rest. The top 5 seems obvious though.
The rest of the WCG results are pretty important for figuring out the order anyway, so it's not worth speculating too much.
On August 28 2009 10:47 TwoToneTerran wrote: Your next opponent is (P)Stork. ▲ I practiced TvP a lot lately so I feel confident*. I will definitely get to the semifinals and have a rematch with (Z)Jaedong
"I will definitely make it to the semifinals" = I will win. And "I praticed TvP a lot lately so I feel confident" means he's saying he will win because it's TvP.
There was even an editor's note pointing out how he used a saying to describe his specific confidence in beating Stork. It's like he forgets that Stork was the guy who started him on his silver streak.
Like I said, translators can make mistakes. I read it as "I definitely want to reach the round of 4 so that I can have a rematch with Jaedong". And a lot of players say "I definitely will make it to the next round" or something similar to show their fans that they're confident, not because they're cocky. You have some kind of excuse for every one of Flash's losses, but you take a slightly mistranslated section in an interview as proof that fantasy is "bm". If that's not a bias, I don't know what is. And there's nothing wrong with saying that he's confident in his TvP, he has many wins against top protoss players to back up that statement.
Haha okay, I was responding to the other dude who said he didn't 'get' that Fantasy was sure that he would win from his next interview, not to your mistranslation nonsense (why aren't you translating/correcting if everyone's making mistakes anyhow?). Aside from that, I'll throw my lot in with Avid over there in pointing out Fantasy's undeniable cockiness by not practicing for a series against the best Zerg ever.
And THAT aside, what is this bullshit, making excuses for Flash's losses? Flash has lost to 3 people as of late (4 of you count vs Leta at masters), and that's Kwanro, Iris, and Bisu. Please tell me where I excused them, because I haven't. Hell I barely commented about his losses to Kwanro, didn't even mention his loss to Iris (because he trashed him in the series, why would it matter if he dropped one game?) and I've yet to make 'excuses' for his loss to Bisu, as that shit happened yesterday and it was a straightforward series (PvT on destination, TvP on ROTK, and Flash messing up a rush/Bisu defending a rush very well). Take your ridiculous ad hominem back, that's seriously completely off topic and completely unwarranted.
I'm a Flash fan, we're so used to Flash having upsetting losses that we don't even try to excuse him. We just revel in his wins (because when Flash wins, it's hardly close).
On August 28 2009 07:54 TwoToneTerran wrote: Gonna laugh when Lux 2-0's stork and Jaedong. Just you wait. >:[
I'm not quite sure how he's going to play both of them since if he wins/loses vs. Bisu he can only play one of them....
Oh Jesus I meant to say Bisu and Jaedong. I space out on the dragons sometimes. :> On the bright side, it being Bisu further helps the ridiculousness of my wager.
What do you mean "mistranslation nonsense"? I fixed it, because the way I read it, Fantasy doesn't actually say that he's sure that he's going to win which pretty much negates your "fantasy is cocky" argument. Just quoting my post doesn't mean that you read what I said. I do do translations http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/search.php?q=interview&t=t&f=6&u=ghostwriter&gb=date but it's not my job to translate or correct. sup?
When I was explaining the possible reasons for why Flash wasn't included on the list, weren't you one of the ones trying to defend him? Who was talking about his recent wins, those are for the upcoming rank, not this one. I also don't see where I was being a jerk.
Defending Flash doesn't mean making excuses for his losses. I don't give half assed reasons against players who legitly beat Flash. I might be a Flash fanboy, but I'm not an insane, irrational one. You completely dodged what I was saying (and took it out of context because it wasn't even directed at you), and then pulled a complete strawman, saying I "make excuses" for Flash's losses to take away my legitimacy, and rude all wrapped in one.
On August 28 2009 12:31 Avidkeystamper wrote: What about where he didn't practice that much for his OSL series vs Jaedong because he had already beaten him before in proleague?
Yup this. Even IF Fantasy's interview about Stork was somehow not negative, Fantasy claimed that his only reason for losing to Jaedong was because he underestimated JD by beating him in proleague finals and therefore causing him not practicing for the OSL series.
I mean, I admit Fantasy is one of the best Terran players nowadays, if not the best. But even the notoriously "arrogant" Bisu (whom I don't believe is that bad) does not say the type of rude stuff that Fantasy says. "I only lost to him cause I didn't practice" "I am sure to breeze through this guy"
On August 28 2009 12:31 Avidkeystamper wrote: What about where he didn't practice that much for his OSL series vs Jaedong because he had already beaten him before in proleague?
Yup this. Even IF Fantasy's interview about Stork was somehow not negative, Fantasy claimed that his only reason for losing to Jaedong was because he underestimated JD by beating him in proleague finals and therefore causing him not practicing for the OSL series.
I mean, I admit Fantasy is one of the best Terran players nowadays, if not the best. But even the notoriously "arrogant" Bisu (whom I don't believe is that bad) does not say the type of rude stuff that Fantasy says. "I only lost to him cause I didn't practice" "I am sure to breeze through this guy"
Haha, bisu is not bad at all. He's just kinda cocky in his attitude and in the way he carries himself. Fantasy didn't say that he didn't practice at all. He just said he didn't practice as much (as he should have) since it's Jaedong.
"He just said he didn't practice as much (as he should have) since it's Jaedong." Who doesn't practice as much only because he's facing the best zerg? I mean seriously, that position is untenable.
Well, I'm sure everyone was tired after proleague. They practiced for many hours and had to play games in 2 days in a row. I'm sure these guys were desperate for some rest, although Jaedong is like a machine when it comes to practice. But then again, he let calm beat him in msl so that he can have time to get ready to smash fantasy.
Well that doesn't stop it from being dismissive of the threat that Jaedong is. If that's true, it'd also back the notion that he was arrogant in his PvT which led to his thrashing at the hands of Stork.
It seems that everytime Fantasy thinks he's got a sure win, he gets taken down. 0-2 lead against Jaedong in a finals? Blow it. Comeback against Stork in the finals? Get rolled over in the final match. Beat Jaedong in PL finals handily, so surely he won't be a threat in the upcoming Bo5? 3-1'd like a habit.
Fantasy's undoubtedly a monster, but the guy seems to have ego and choking problems when it comes to (most) important matches.
To be fair, though, Jaedong is also arrogant, but he is almost never dismissive of his opponent's skill, which is nice. Spartan training regiment, woo.
On August 28 2009 14:13 Avidkeystamper wrote: "He just said he didn't practice as much (as he should have) since it's Jaedong." Who doesn't practice as much only because he's facing the best zerg? I mean seriously, that position is untenable.
on top of that he already spoke about WCG semifinals as if it was he vs Jaedong. Like a noob PvTer like Stork wouldnt even count as an opponent
Fantasy arrogant? Dismissive? Maybe, but you can't tell it from his interviews. They are after all, just interviews.
iloveoov frequently got psychological advantages in important matches by making very arrogant and cocky interviews. Look at the recent proleague finals if you want evidence. And who is Fantasy's coach?
His losses in those series have nothing to do with whatever he says in the interview. He simply isn't a complete player.
You're all fumbling around in the dark. What you're assuming is an implication of arrogance can only be implied from certain phrasings when said in English. You can't imply word choice like that from a translation, much less know the tone.
Not 100%, but it is kind of a safe assumption. It's also backed up by every top player having a sort of ego. Fantasy just seems to imply his ego gets in the way of his common sense on preparation.
There is a difference between overconfidence and arrogance, primarily relating to boastfulness. One is a miscalculation, another is an attempt to look good.
On August 29 2009 00:05 TwoToneTerran wrote: Not 100%, but it is kind of a safe assumption. It's also backed up by every top player having a sort of ego. Fantasy just seems to imply his ego gets in the way of his common sense on preparation.
you seriously think Fanta did not take JD seriously? I guess he was overconfident and that you could see even in his play (the 4pool set for ex), but the "excuse" that he did not practice too much because he was able to defeat JD in the PL is just made up bullshit to maintain the imgage that he's actually better anyways (imo)
On August 28 2009 22:26 Nylan wrote: You're all fumbling around in the dark. What you're assuming is an implication of arrogance can only be implied from certain phrasings when said in English. You can't imply word choice like that from a translation, much less know the tone.
No I'm not reading off of the translations. I'm looking directly at the source of interview written in Korean.
When asked about his loss verse Jaedong, Fantasy replies:
그래서 스타리그 4강을 많이 연습하지 않아서 진 것 같다
He directly states that he lost because he didn't practice a lot
There's not much room for error there.
An epic reply from random Korean netizen:
얜 이제동이 지보다 못하는데 방심해서 진줄안다. 넌 병구도 못넘어 색기야 !!!
Which translates to, "He thinks that Jaedong is worse than him so he thinks his loss is from underestimating him. You can't even beat Stork you son of a bitch!!!"
Yeah, I went back and reread the original translation too. Not "fumbling around in the dark here." But in any case, what does fantasy's supposed arrogance have to do with the power rank? He lost his games to stork and didn't get a chance to rematch Jaedong and maybe might be pushed down a rank or two for next month. That's the issue, not his tone or his intentions from an interview.
Oh it has nothing to do with the Power Rank, only other than if JWD wants to point out that Fantasy might want to get his head on a little more straight. Crown Prince makes it sound like he's entitled to more than he is, and his overall well performance does seem to go to his head too soon. He should pull out the cocky remarks when he wins, because then you can't really challenge it.
Meh, who really cares if Fantasy is arrogant? If he is, he got humiliated big time for it. If he isn't, well, either way he'll train harder next time I'm sure.
Flash finally got stopped 2-1 by Bisu (no shame in that) after his monster run (including a completely one-sided series against Effort) this month, I hope he did enough to shut the people who actually believe things like "I'm tired of hearing people say 'Flash is really good, he just loses all of his games'".
Bisu is awesome too, even if people are saying he's becoming 'cheesy', really he's just doing whatever it takes to keep the Protoss race in the game, props to him for that.
I'm still in a state of shock that Kwanro is in the finals. I just don't WANT to believe that he's that good. Deep down I'm hoping Calm crushes him 3-0 in a series as one-sided as Jaedong vs Yarnc, because Kwanro as an MSL winner just feels WRONG.
I don't know, kwanro's road to the finals wasn't that easy at all (flash, zero, iris). But then again, calm had to go through forgg, effort and Jaedong. I feel that calm deserves it more, he's been really monstrous lately, but as a CJ fan, I will be supporting Kwanro. I don't think kwanro's been on the power rank before, so for him to get in as the #4 pick or so would be nice.
I don't think Fantasy sounding arrogant is just a mistranslation. Stork said in his own WCG interview that he was motivated because he felt that Fantasy was underestimating him in that interview.
Obviously, since Fantasy pretty much ignored stork in his response and focused on Jaedong. But I don't feel that it is a direct insult to stork and it doesn't seem to be a sign of arrogance. Stork's feelings are very understandable, anyone would feel indignant at being ignored like that.
What fantasy said on that interview, at least to me, is a sign of confidence, not arrogance. Many progamers say "Oh, I didn't get to practice much" for many of their interviews.
When translating it's hard to keep the tone of the interview exactly the way it is (as I don't a formal training on translating) but what I felt when I read the sentence was that fantasy is confident in his TvP. Not arrogant.
On August 29 2009 02:46 TwoToneTerran wrote: Oh it has nothing to do with the Power Rank, only other than if JWD wants to point out that Fantasy might want to get his head on a little more straight. Silver Crown Prince makes it sound like he's entitled to more than he is, and his overall well performance does seem to go to his head too soon. He should pull out the cocky remarks when he wins, because then you can't really challenge it.
On August 29 2009 02:46 TwoToneTerran wrote: Oh it has nothing to do with the Power Rank, only other than if JWD wants to point out that Fantasy might want to get his head on a little more straight. Silver Crown Prince makes it sound like he's entitled to more than he is, and his overall well performance does seem to go to his head too soon. He should pull out the cocky remarks when he wins, because then you can't really challenge it.
Fixed by adding one word. ^^
Well at least in Western societies the Crown Prince was the guy who wasn't king yet because the old king was still around... Considering that JD has basically singlehandedly kept fantasy from 2 OSL titles (although maybe Yarnc would have beat him, but I'M IGNORING THAT), I think just "Crown Prince" is accurate enough.
On August 29 2009 02:46 TwoToneTerran wrote: Oh it has nothing to do with the Power Rank, only other than if JWD wants to point out that Fantasy might want to get his head on a little more straight. Silver Crown Prince makes it sound like he's entitled to more than he is, and his overall well performance does seem to go to his head too soon. He should pull out the cocky remarks when he wins, because then you can't really challenge it.
Fixed by adding one word. ^^
Well at least in Western societies the Crown Prince was the guy who wasn't king yet because the old king was still around... Considering that JD has basically singlehandedly kept fantasy from 2 OSL titles (although maybe Yarnc would have beat him, but I'M IGNORING THAT), I think just "Crown Prince" is accurate enough.
Agreed. Also, just because you are a crown prince doesn't mean that you will become king. There are almost always challengers to the throne.
Fantasy deserves to be pushed down a rank because of the way he ignored stork in his interview and then was raped 2-0, but hes definitely better and more worthy of #3 than either calm or kwanro. I also feel that stork and iris deserve be pushed up, but it's hard to justify that bump against the msl finals loser. Stork is 6-0 in august though, 2-0 upmagic, fantasy and jaedong which is more impressive than iris beating bisu then losing to flash and kwanro. Iris really deserves more, but he gave away his 3-0 win against kwanro and this is probably going to keep him stuck at the 9 spot. yarnc was pretty unimpressive too, but it's the osl finals, so I figure he deserves some slack.
On August 30 2009 00:42 o[twist] wrote: we might actually get two protoss on the PR this month, huh! after last night's results i have to think something like
Wow, I had to sleep so I missed JD vs Stork, came on expecting to see 2-0 Jaedong, and saw 2-0 Stork instead.
What a beast, he just shat on one of the top Terrans 2-0 and THE undisputed top Zerg 2-0. Now he just needs to rofflestomp Bisu 2-0 and we'll officially be in the Twilight Zone.
On August 30 2009 03:21 Hinanawi wrote: Wow, I had to sleep so I missed JD vs Stork, came on expecting to see 2-0 Jaedong, and saw 2-0 Stork instead.
What a beast, he just shat on one of the top Terrans 2-0 and THE undisputed top Zerg 2-0. Now he just needs to rofflestomp Bisu 2-0 and we'll officially be in the Twilight Zone.
If stork beats bisu tomorrow, I'm all for giving him the 6 spot at least. He's looked tremendously strong lately and he deserves that nod. Masters seems like such a nothing tournament. SKTT1 won its last two series using s2/mong/hyuk. They're obviously not taking it seriously even though they won.
Although Stork's my favorite player, I personally wouldn't rank him too high just yet. WCG Korea, in the end, is not THAT important to progamers. And his win against Jaedong was kind of tainted by Jaedong not being in shape.
I think regardless of how he does against Bisu, Stork should be placed at best 9 or 10. His accomplishment really shouldn't overshadow those who advanced far into the SLs.
On gut feeling I would place him around 6-8, but then I saw how many deserving players there were this month, so unfortunately I agree that he will be around 9 or 10. Probably 9.
Stork's win over Jaedong is a big deal for Stork, but not so much for Jaedong. The guy hasn't had to play a ZvP in a month and a half, so I can forgive him for being rusty. Whereas Stork has had literally nothing to do for a while but practice for WCG and play WoW.
If Jaedong loses to Luxury I would say Bisu deserves the #1 spot, but otherwise Jaedong just barely hangs on to it.
I'd say put Hyuk at #10 for the lulz. Rolling a strong team like STX is no easy feat and he was solid during the PL playoffs as well.
On August 30 2009 18:08 okum wrote: Well, everything has happened, and just in time for the change of month. PR on time this time? Maybe even a day early?
On August 30 2009 17:33 TwoToneTerran wrote: I'd like to give Jaedong some slack for having to deal with FA during this whole incident, but it would help solidify his slot to beat Lux.
Yeah, good thing he accomplished this. ^^ I'm not going to make an excuse that the FA was solely the reason why he played poor against Stork but I do want to point out that even though he's going through such a hard time, he still manages to qualify for the WCG. He's a one mentally tough kid!
On August 30 2009 18:08 okum wrote: Well, everything has happened, and just in time for the change of month. PR on time this time? Maybe even a day early?
On August 30 2009 18:08 okum wrote: Well, everything has happened, and just in time for the change of month. PR on time this time? Maybe even a day early?
On August 30 2009 18:08 okum wrote: Well, everything has happened, and just in time for the change of month. PR on time this time? Maybe even a day early?
On August 30 2009 18:08 okum wrote: Well, everything has happened, and just in time for the change of month. PR on time this time? Maybe even a day early?
Dear PR fans, I'm sad to announce that this was my last month writing the rank. It's been a good time (but of course I fell just short of my ultimate goal, filling the entire rank with players from SK Telecom T1).
A sick writer is taking over Power Rank duties for me as of the September rank...stay tuned!
On August 30 2009 22:22 JWD wrote: Dear PR fans, I'm sad to announce that this was my last month writing the rank. It's been a good time (but of course I fell just short of my ultimate goal, filling the entire rank with players from SK Telecom T1).
A sick writer is taking over Power Rank duties for me as of the September rank...stay tuned!
Just when Mong, s2, and Hyuk were looking promising too. Cheers.
I can contribute the description for Hyuk (I have borrowed JWD's style to ensure a smooth transition).
3) Hyuk.
Jaedong would be this Power Rank's #1 zerg were it not for this man's clutch performance in the Proleague Grand Final. While Hyuk's utter destruction of Jaedong did not directly influence the match results, it was Hyuk's domination from start to finish that shattered Jaedong's confidence and ultimately allowed Fantasy to deliver the final blow. Hyuk's was not just the finest game of ZvZ of all time, but a work of art transcending the confines of electronic sports. Hyuk's performance in the Proleague Grand Final must be regarded as the Mona Lisa, nay, the St. Matthew Passion of Starcraft; a crowning achivement of human culture -- the ultimate testament to man's spirit and imagination.
But that is not all. Not satisfied with joining the ranks of Socrates, Bach, Newton, Shakespeare and Will Smith in the annals of history, Hyuk went on to single-handedly destroy the entire A-team of STX -- the deepest team in e-sports (second to SKT T1, of course) -- in a tour de force of clutchness. Showcasing endless creativity, game sense, and clutchness, Hyuk clutchly dispatched of monsters Hwasin, Bogus, hero and Kal without even breaking a sweat. Fellow Starcraft fans: this is perfect Starcraft, and mark my words, it is only the beginning of Hyuk.
SKT T1's position as Starcraft's finest team is now firmly cemented. Like Fantasy is the Son who has completed the Holy Terran Trinity together with Boxer and oov, and like Bisu before Fantasy perfected Protoss, Hyuk's coming signifies the final stage in the evolution of zerg. Hyuk's performance this month was both a large step for one man and a giant leap for mankind.
rofl nice one okum, that really could be from the PR, a little bit exaggerated maybe ;p sad to see JWD go though, i've really liked these PR;s ;< when shall we know whom will be taking over?
On August 30 2009 22:22 JWD wrote: Dear PR fans, I'm sad to announce that this was my last month writing the rank. It's been a good time (but of course I fell just short of my ultimate goal, filling the entire rank with players from SK Telecom T1).
A sick writer is taking over Power Rank duties for me as of the September rank...stay tuned!
i'm not pretending i liked your SKT bias, but at least you produced some controversy (and made me significantly increase my post count ).IMO the best PR format would be several knowledgeable people put together, but that is impossible due to time and man resources probably. Good luck with your law studies!
On August 30 2009 22:22 JWD wrote: Dear PR fans, I'm sad to announce that this was my last month writing the rank. It's been a good time (but of course I fell just short of my ultimate goal, filling the entire rank with players from SK Telecom T1).
A sick writer is taking over Power Rank duties for me as of the September rank...stay tuned!
Maybe the next PR writer will be a hardcore STX Soul fanatic who manages to sneak Tossgirl onto the PR at #9 or 10, and drops Fantasy off the rank entirely for losing to Stork.
In all honesty, I hope it's someone who meets Mr.Hoon's earlier criteria. No fan of SKT/CJ/Hite/STX/Khan/KT and to a lesser extent Oz (I mean no one on Oz except Jaedong will ever be on the rank again since Anytime left, so it's slightly less pertinent than the other top, more deep teams). They either need to be apathetic to teams at large, or at worst an MBC/Stars/Estro/Ace/Wemade fanboy.
You mean like Fakesteve with his unabashed Sea[Shield] love and Stork hate?
PR is by definition biased. It's one man's opinion anyway. And I'm assuming no one on the TL actually watches all pro games in an objective manner anyway.
Fakesteve did the Sea Shield thing like twice though without legitimate reason, and that's not bad considering how long he had PR duties -- and only once did it affect the higher ranks, as any other time Sea was like #10 or something. But any fan of a team with 3-4 top players is gonna have a hard time curbing the bias. I probably would be terrible at PR because I see too much in Flash and Violet, etc.
i don't even really troll for teams but i'm not at all unbiased. i overvalue players who are enjoyable to watch, who seem nice or cool, who have cool haircuts, and sometimes for no reason at all. and i dislike players for similarly irrational reasons. i think most people do these things. still, not everyone would put thezerg on PR (no offense to jwd)
On August 31 2009 01:24 vaMpYr wrote: 1. jaedong 2. bisu 3. calm 4. fantasy 5. flash 6. yellow[arnc] 7. kwanro 8. stork 9. iris 10. effort
pretty good but it feels like effort's just there for the hell of it. probably should put luxury or someone who has won more than 2 games since the last PR there (even hyuk LOL).
On August 31 2009 01:24 vaMpYr wrote: 1. jaedong 2. bisu 3. calm 4. fantasy 5. flash 6. yellow[arnc] 7. kwanro 8. stork 9. iris 10. effort
I can't agree with yellow being so high in the PR and Iris should be a little higher. Oh and effort is currently 5-6 this month so there shouldn't even be an argument if he is there.
On August 31 2009 12:23 baubo wrote: You mean like Fakesteve with his unabashed Sea[Shield] love and Stork hate?
PR is by definition biased. It's one man's opinion anyway. And I'm assuming no one on the TL actually watches all pro games in an objective manner anyway.
that was actually quite funny. rember the Manifesto joke? Best one FS ever had. And the Sea-love was ok, cuz you knew you have to look over that+ Sea[shield] was on TL attack so he deserved a bit of protection. But his work had serious issues beside those, so i'm glad we've got JWD even if he loves SKT a bit too much
Its really hard to put up a list with few games. How about this?
1. Jaedong (I have a small problem with this, but there is no other place to put him, since all other behind him havent played nearly as much as him. Jaedong has actually lost alot this month, losses that he could have been without. But despite that, he is still no1, OSL champ and in WCG) 2. Calm (He has proven himself? He is showing stronger than ever, rolling over kwanro (ironicly enough) and having a easy time against Jaedong.) 3. Bisu (Proving absolutley monsterious strength by winning WCG korea) 4. Flash (This might be abit much, but still he showed a very easy time against Iris and against Effort, and played quite well against Bisu in WCG) 5. Stork (He has show really amazing games, first against Upmagic, Fantasy and then crushing Jaedong. Only to lose to Bisu in the finals. Stork is looking good! He is back again!) 6. Fantasy (Obviously he prepared well for his matches in the Grand Finals of Proleague. But after that, Fantasy has done nothing much but lose when it mattered the most) 7. Kwanro 8. Iris 9. Luxury 10. Effort
Luxury has actually played better than Yellow[arnc] this month. What have Yellow done but fail?
On August 31 2009 13:16 Ideas wrote: pretty good but it feels like effort's just there for the hell of it. probably should put luxury or someone who has won more than 2 games since the last PR there (even hyuk LOL).
Luxury? For serious? I know he had to beat some people to get to WCG semis.
Oh wait. No he didn't, he was a seed from last time when he was actually good. He just beat Calm and Yarnc. ZvZ, so meh, but 4-0, okay. Then he got stomped by Bisu, including blowing a candidate for "world's biggest lead", and lost to Jaedong. 5-4 with no results and his relatively bad level of play before that does not a PR candidate make.
Granted EffOrt has no results either, but he's at least played some impressive games recently and, you know, has actually been good some time in the last six months.
As for this:
On August 31 2009 21:13 ThePhan2m wrote: Luxury has actually played better than Yellow[arnc] this month. What have Yellow done but fail?
Lux: 5-4 against Calm, Yarnc (wins), JD, and Bisu (losses) Yarnc: 8-7 against type-b, Sea, Jangbi, s2 (wins), Jaedong, mong, and Luxury (losses)
Not much to choose, really. Lux beat Yarnc and took a game off JD, but Yarnc has more games, more wins, a better showing in a better tournament, and wins against non-Z. (No idea what happened vs mong.) Oh, and as EffOrt, has actually looked good some time in the last six months.
On August 31 2009 21:13 ThePhan2m wrote: Luxury has actually played better than Yellow[arnc] this month. What have Yellow done but fail?
Lux: 5-4 against Calm, Yarnc (wins), JD, and Bisu (losses) Yarnc: 8-7 against type-b, Sea, Jangbi, s2 (wins), Jaedong, mong, and Luxury (losses)
Not much to choose, really. Lux beat Yarnc and took a game off JD, but Yarnc has more games, more wins, a better showing in a better tournament, and wins against non-Z. (No idea what happened vs mong.) Oh, and as EffOrt, has actually looked good some time in the last six months.
Yarncs wins was vs players that arent even PR material. If there was a 11th place, he would get it imo.
On August 31 2009 13:16 Ideas wrote: pretty good but it feels like effort's just there for the hell of it. probably should put luxury or someone who has won more than 2 games since the last PR there (even hyuk LOL).
Luxury? For serious? I know he had to beat some people to get to WCG semis.
Oh wait. No he didn't, he was a seed from last time when he was actually good. He just beat Calm and Yarnc. ZvZ, so meh, but 4-0, okay. Then he got stomped by Bisu, including blowing a candidate for "world's biggest lead", and lost to Jaedong. 5-4 with no results and his relatively bad level of play before that does not a PR candidate make.
Granted EffOrt has no results either, but he's at least played some impressive games recently and, you know, has actually been good some time in the last six months.
On August 31 2009 21:13 ThePhan2m wrote: Luxury has actually played better than Yellow[arnc] this month. What have Yellow done but fail?
Lux: 5-4 against Calm, Yarnc (wins), JD, and Bisu (losses) Yarnc: 8-7 against type-b, Sea, Jangbi, s2 (wins), Jaedong, mong, and Luxury (losses)
Not much to choose, really. Lux beat Yarnc and took a game off JD, but Yarnc has more games, more wins, a better showing in a better tournament, and wins against non-Z. (No idea what happened vs mong.) Oh, and as EffOrt, has actually looked good some time in the last six months.
lol wut
I guess ZvZ as a MU just shouldnt be counted any more, cuz you know, lots of people dont like it.