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(2) Premiere Published on US.
Replays Thanks to CaptainHaz for some replays:
+ Show Spoiler [Concept] +A good timing attack takes knowledge of a match-up and skill to develop, but is very easily copied. So I asked myself, "Can a map offer opportunities for an adaptive player to defend against a rotely-executed timing attack?"Good defenders that sniff out a timing attack could set an ambush to snipe key units in the attack, especially if the attacker is just a-moving with no formation. For instance, have you tried sniping the probe against 4 Warp Gate? Backstabs should also be an option when a timing attack dumbly marches out. The absence of watchtowers are also important in this concept. If units for a timing attack rally at a watchtower (Lost Temple) or just touch them on the way to attack (lots of maps) then it is a lot harder for a defender to snipe a key unit or backstab. For this concept to work there should be no towers on the main route and plenty of high ground so the fog of war is relatively "thick." Premiere is built on this basic concept, and then fills it out with some other interesting features.
Thanks to adso for generating a much prettier overview shot for me!
EDIT: Moody and FlaShFTW suggested move main gas to far side to clear up space at the ramp. This is reflected in the above overview image, and in the published map, but not in the following images, because I am too lazy to regenerate them.
+ Show Spoiler [Breakdown of the main and natural] +- Main is ~28CC big. Behind the mineral line there is some unpathable high ground for enemy air units to hide on.
- Entrance to natural is wide but not in degrees (Like Metal, nat is hanging in the wind there). There is space behind the natural to build (offensive/defense).
- The main path leading to the other base.
- A high ground peninsula extends toward the natural. Tanks can hit the CC/nexus/hatch and nearest gas and some minerals. Also a good pylon spot for warp-in. Zerg can hide an overlord on the unpathable cliff right above this stuff to watch on defense, or spy on opponent's natural. There is a smoke screen so the defender can surprise a harass force.
- A "pit cliff" for harassing the edge of the main and the gold. Need sight to keep up the harass.
+ Show Spoiler [The Juicy Island] +Yummy, 8 patches and a watchtower to detect attacks or drops en route against your main, and also keeps an eye on the gold. A siege tank cannot hit workers at the gold from the tower unless they walk to the backside of the minerals.
+ Show Spoiler [Normal Expo in Far Corner] +This high ground expo has some flimsy destructible garages (600hp on big one, little ones are 400hp each) that temporarily create a tighter choke. Early game this is a good hidden expo, but later the garages "doo NAthing" and with sight of high-ground the expo is easily harassed.
+ Show Spoiler [Nydus Push?] +The "Nydus Push" is an idea I don't think will work on any SC2 map I've seen yet. The idea is, - Nydus into the "pit-cliff" first. Bring hydras and roaches, leave lings in the worm.
- Start a second nydus in the main. Use your units in the pit to protect the second nydus during building. You can easily dance around in the pit to evade forces in the main if you decide to abort.
- If you get the second nydus up, send units in the pit into the first head and everything pops out into the main!
This could be great, you can always jump back in the worm to deal with a counter attack at home, then even push again. Some awesome Zerg make this work and perhaps Nydus Push-able areas will appear in more maps.
+ Show Spoiler [Why is this map called 'Premiere…] +Because it's opening night with a red carpet in the center of the map!
Rush Distance compared to XNC:
Premiere main2main: 141.6 nat2nat: 123.3
Xel'Naga Caverns main2main: 149.1 nat2nat: 118.6
dezi asked, "How far apart are the 3rd bases [on Premiere]?" 67.3
P.S. If you like taking new maps for a spin with your friends, send the replay to the mapper! I guarantee you they will reply with hearts because all mappers want is to find out that people play their maps without having to be dragged into it. Do this for all your favorite mappers, and for me send replays to dimfish.mapper@gmail.com.
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How does a wall off function with the gas in the main being so close to the ramp?
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United States9649 Posts
there might be wall-off problem w/ gas. might want to push it back or move it to the other side... also, its kinda not good to put a watchtower at the island... maybe in between the gold and the 4:30
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On January 28 2011 03:19 Moody wrote: How does a wall off function with the gas in the main being so close to the ramp?
I'll make an image and post it when I get home. I put it close to the ramp to help Zerg, where a spine crawler could help control the top.
I could put the second gas in the back side of the main.
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On January 28 2011 03:34 FlaShFTW wrote: there might be wall-off problem w/ gas. might want to push it back or move it to the other side... also, its kinda not good to put a watchtower at the island... maybe in between the gold and the 4:30
Why not? I did that on purpose because its new--go get the island! And did you read the concept? I purposefully did not put any towers along the main route between bases to "thicken" the fog of war.
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dezi
Germany1536 Posts
Haha :D
Nat feels very open - but i hope you tested it enough. What's the distance between the 3rds? (Place temporary Startpositions to check). Only think i don't like: the road in front of the nat just end (Blizz needs to add cool road ends ^^).
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I forgot to mention that I haven't shown this map before now, please help me test/improve it!
@Moody Moved the gas to other side of main, clearing up the ramp, and its in the published version. Wall-ins should be normal now.
@dezi distance between the thirds is 67.3
Also, I tried several different endings to the roads with Terran Tarmac and plain textures and that bar thing I'm using next to grass and concrete, but all of it looked worse than a straight-up road end. Ugh.
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TBH it just looks like stepes of war 2.0
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since almost every scrap stationesque map has that empty space inbetween mains i think it would be cool if you did something like this + Show Spoiler + you open up those paths and i wonder if this would play well. you would probably have to change some terrain paths etc etc.
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On January 28 2011 05:35 Whiplash wrote: TBH it just looks like stepes of war 2.0 This is really confusing to me. Premiere is not small, rotationally symmetric, on a jungle tileset, has no towers or LoSB in the center, has no expansions behind destructible rocks, has no "main3-nat2-center1" high ground pattern or basically any resemblance at all to Steppes of War. ?
On January 28 2011 05:36 WniO wrote:since almost every scrap stationesque map has that empty space inbetween mains i think it would be cool if you did something like this + Show Spoiler + you open up those paths and i wonder if this would play well. you would probably have to change some terrain paths etc etc. A big, 2 expo, harassments-possible island area you say? This could be cool!
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A very nicely made map. Compact to the eye, but spaced out enough to create solid games imo. Good work!
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for aesthetic purposes you may want to rotate the large garage at the 5 o clock high ground expansion so that the door doesnt face the cliff? .
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I think this map is awesome. It's so simple and looks like loads of fun. I might add some watch towers along the long road to make venturing outside your own area more worth it. Otherwise, cool!
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Thanks!
NastyMarine, I can't seem to rotate the destructible garages, and I think destructible rocks (like those big long ones on Scrap Station) don't rotate either. Oh well.
lovablemikey, I thought your submission to MotM January was simple and cool, too! I noticed all the clever spots you created with LoSB in good positions compared to the watchtowers
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On January 28 2011 11:36 dimfish wrote: Thanks!
NastyMarine, I can't seem to rotate the destructible garages, and I think destructible rocks (like those big long ones on Scrap Station) don't rotate either. Oh well. Blizzard added a horizontal and vertical version of the huge rocks with the patch. You might be able to use those instead of trying to rotate the diagonal ones. I used them in my work in progress map Pretty Time Jungle.
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On January 28 2011 12:38 lovablemikey wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2011 11:36 dimfish wrote: Thanks!
NastyMarine, I can't seem to rotate the destructible garages, and I think destructible rocks (like those big long ones on Scrap Station) don't rotate either. Oh well. Blizzard added a horizontal and vertical version of the huge rocks with the patch. You might be able to use those instead of trying to rotate the diagonal ones. I used them in my work in progress map Pretty Time Jungle.
Which is probably why the analyzer didn't pick them up for you. I know, I know, I have to reconfigure my development environment to get back to work on the analyzer and for whatever reason everything is completely out of whack
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On January 28 2011 06:00 dimfish wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2011 05:35 Whiplash wrote: TBH it just looks like stepes of war 2.0 This is really confusing to me. Premiere is not small, rotationally symmetric, on a jungle tileset, has no towers or LoSB in the center, has no expansions behind destructible rocks, has no "main3-nat2-center1" high ground pattern or basically any resemblance at all to Steppes of War. ? Show nested quote +On January 28 2011 05:36 WniO wrote:since almost every scrap stationesque map has that empty space inbetween mains i think it would be cool if you did something like this + Show Spoiler + you open up those paths and i wonder if this would play well. you would probably have to change some terrain paths etc etc. A big, 2 expo, harassments-possible island area you say? This could be cool!
Steppes resemblance is mostly that the big path is the main path with all the expansions mostly off to the side, there are some flanking possibilities from the sides, like steppes just amplified a tad here.
If it were my own map i'd probably end up doing something like this:
to amplify the "the lower path is sort of bad" feeling so that there is reason to use the longer path for more secure pushing, sort of a green advantaged over pink. Like i guess you were going for with the "ambush" concept. This is the way they did most of those dreamliner, RoV, PA style maps in BW, there you also more of a high ground advantage however. The later the game goes the deeper into the map the battles go.
Then again I may be overly obsessed with that sort of pathing.
Right now the main fighting path would just be the main big one (think steppes but not with the side bits so cut off and a bit longer distance) the side bits (3rd and further) feel like they'd be more for dicking around and harassment with the odd flank.
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That "nydus push" idea is never going to happen.
1. 2 nydus worms required, more expensive than drop. 2.You will never ever in a million years be able to "cover" a building nydus from the low ground. It has not nearly enough health. if it is seen then a single volley will kill it instantly from far beyond hydra range, if it isn't seen you're better off just building one worm right into the main....
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I'm concerned about the XWT at the island. To me, that would favor Terran. If they have that XWT in control, they can see Overlords, and if they kill them, can have air control from main to main. Zerg wouldn't see the drop until it's in his main.
I like the concept of the map. I like where the third is located, and how there is no definite fourth for each player. The only problem I have is the XWT location. If you want to have it give sight into the gold, then simply just put it on the ground in between the two ramps and back it up to the wall of the gold.
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I think the concept overall is interesting, but difficult. I did something similar with my map (2) Tendency and I think there are some similarities that are similar weaknesses: + Show Spoiler +sorry for putting my map mage into your thread, but I think it helps to discuss the principal problems in scrapstation-like maps. sorry about talking about my own map, but it really is similar. First there is a central expansion, that is brutal to hold. First I was thinking making it gold, but then I made it a triple vespene. My concept was, that there were other expansions the opponent could take (even more extually) when not going for the central expansion. Giving away a high yield expansion though is more difficult thang giving away a triple vespene.
Second point is the island, that I do not like in general but that is understandable in such a layout, because it is difficult fit in two extra pathes towards the north east corner. still it might be possible to have two pathes and two expansions back there.
Other problems I think I can find in your map from analyzing it only visual (cannot play it): the natural is a bit too open and the movement from nat to nat is just really boring.
My suggestion is to remove the island, make the gold easier to hold (one ramp ony probably?) and change path between basis to make it more interesting, like extra low- or highground somewhere. also get the XN into the centre. Probably take a look into (2)Tendency.I want to rework it and so have some similar problems
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Thanks for all the feedback!
On January 28 2011 17:23 Grebliv wrote:If it were my own map i'd probably end up doing something like this: + Show Spoiler +to amplify the "the lower path is sort of bad" feeling so that there is reason to use the longer path for more secure pushing, sort of a green advantaged over pink. Like i guess you were going for with the "ambush" concept. This is the way they did most of those dreamliner, RoV, PA style maps in BW, there you also more of a high ground advantage however. The later the game goes the deeper into the map the battles go. Then again I may be overly obsessed with that sort of pathing. Right now the main fighting path would just be the main big one (think steppes but not with the side bits so cut off and a bit longer distance) the side bits (3rd and further) feel like they'd be more for dicking around and harassment with the odd flank. I follow you. I actually had Blue Storm in mind as a map where the center path was too tight for what I wanted, so I went a bit overboard on widening it. But see, I don't think the ambusher's advantage is necessarily that the attacker is walking directly along the bottom of a ramp and you swoop down on him, its more like there are so many ramps your ambush or backstab force could be hiding on that I can't delay my timing attack to check them all. And there are no towers so an attacker just lazily drops a worker there and can see if anything moves in from behind. The fog of war is "thick"! In any case, I'll consider your tightening adjustment to make flanks against the center stronger.
On January 28 2011 19:06 sob3k wrote: That "nydus push" idea is never going to happen.
1. 2 nydus worms required, more expensive than drop. 2.You will never ever in a million years be able to "cover" a building nydus from the low ground. It has not nearly enough health. if it is seen then a single volley will kill it instantly from far beyond hydra range, if it isn't seen you're better off just building one worm right into the main.... I can't wait for the day when nydus blows up, and I'm telling you sob3k, this day will come! I play with Nydus occasionally, and there is a reason it costs more than drop which is that it is better than drop for a bunch of situations. If you take an island with nydus and you get attacked, you run your drones into the worm and "presto!" you lose a lot less for that extra 100 gas compared to drop. You'll see, somebody in GSL will figure it out, but part of it is the maps.
So about this Nydus push business: I don't usually try to nydus right into the opponent's main because they expect that, but if there is a hole it's worth a shot. Here's a major problem: if you see a nydus building, you can kill it with like 8/10 workers. Try it, probes do that to me all the time. All I'm saying is you can defeat the like 2 newest marines and the SCVs that a guy pulls when you surprise him with a nydus worm, IF you had some hydras to partially cover it building. I'm not suggesting that you nydus into a tank line, it still has to be a surprise.
One last thing about nydus that I'm positive will be part of its future uses: when its time to take a 3rd or 4th base (think XelNaga Caverns) you should shoot a worm up. It gives you a billion benefits including immediate creep to drop crawlers on, the sound of it will inevitably cause a flurry of unnecessary mind trickery on your opponent while he scours his bases looking for it, and you can position most or all of your main army further into the map with a reasonable method of jumping to your core bases in case of an attack. You'll see my friend, nydus will break out someday, ignore the pun!
Oh, and I got all hyped on nydus I forgot to ask you: WniO posted above a possible change to the map where the low ground pits for this nydus push would extend together and form a big low ground island in the back of the map with two new expos. If the first worm of this push got you a base as well as setting up the second one, would that get you to even try it?
On January 28 2011 20:31 Antares777 wrote: I'm concerned about the XWT at the island. To me, that would favor Terran. If they have that XWT in control, they can see Overlords, and if they kill them, can have air control from main to main. Zerg wouldn't see the drop until it's in his main.
I like the concept of the map. I like where the third is located, and how there is no definite fourth for each player. The only problem I have is the XWT location. If you want to have it give sight into the gold, then simply just put it on the ground in between the two ramps and back it up to the wall of the gold.
No, man, let the Terran have it! Maps should have stuff that everyone wants to grab. Okay, say a Terran lifts CC to the island early, and he grabs the tower. So what? The Zerg with overlords better have already seen the CC and realized ovies shouldn't be chillin where vikings can pick them off. And for that matter, there are a lot of spots along the edge of the map for ovies to hide, so they have their own advantages here. I say let the island be juicy, and all races should consider it or make sure to keep their opponent off it.
On January 28 2011 21:03 Samro225am wrote:I think the concept overall is interesting, but difficult. I did something similar with my map (2) Tendency and I think there are some similarities that are similar weaknesses: + Show Spoiler +sorry for putting my map mage into your thread, but I think it helps to discuss the principal problems in scrapstation-like maps. sorry about talking about my own map, but it really is similar. No problem, we really should be collaborating, why else are we bothering to post our maps here? And I remember Tendency and its various facelifts, its cool
First there is a central expansion, that is brutal to hold. First I was thinking making it gold, but then I made it a triple vespene. My concept was, that there were other expansions the opponent could take (even more extually) when not going for the central expansion. Giving away a high yield expansion though is more difficult thang giving away a triple vespene.
Second point is the island, that I do not like in general but that is understandable in such a layout, because it is difficult fit in two extra pathes towards the north east corner. still it might be possible to have two pathes and two expansions back there.
Okay, I'm not sure I follow exactly. What are we giving away? And what don't you like about islands? Islands are like backdoors to main where some players wish they never existed I suppose, but I think islands play a fundamental role by encouraging tech. + Show Spoiler +except for terrans who just have build OCs and marines
Other problems I think I can find in your map from analyzing it only visual (cannot play it): the natural is a bit too open and the movement from nat to nat is just really boring. My suggestion is to remove the island, make the gold easier to hold (one ramp ony probably?) and change path between basis to make it more interesting, like extra low- or highground somewhere. also get the XN into the centre. Probably take a look into (2)Tendency.I want to rework it and so have some similar problems I hear you that the nat2nat walk is boring, but there's a cool movie opening to stop at! Actually, I was hoping the tension of backstabs and flanks actually makes the nat2nat walk interesting because players have an incentive to peek up ramps along the walk, or scout ahead while the main army marches down the center.
And in response to the natural, I made this image for you and dezi and everyone. It's a 1-to-1 comparison of the natural on Metalopolis with the natural on Premiere, where I measured the distance of chokes in map cells.
Basically, if you think the natural on Premiere is so open its broken, then do you freak out about Metalopolis everytime you play that? Of course not, because SC allows you to use different styles to take your first expansion. If the natural choke is tight you can do tricky aggressive fast expanding, and if the natural is very open you can always be more conservative about it. Just picture XNC, in the early game those two little chokes and the side area barely matter when you only have a few units to defend, so on that map FE is like a natural with almost 180 degrees of open attack vectors! Its all doable, and we should create maps with variety I think
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regarding the openness of your natural: if I imagine there is a cc built, and some units have to stand around somewhere guarding the main ramp I can picture that an attacker on Premiere is in an advantage, because of less space overall in your nat, sothat the defending units are forced to stand at the front and this leads to a much wider range of attacks/angle of fire. I can't test it, but you should. numbers are not everything although I love the analyzer.
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On January 29 2011 03:01 Samro225am wrote: regarding the openness of your natural: if I imagine there is a cc built, and some units have to stand around somewhere guarding the main ramp I can picture that an attacker on Premiere is in an advantage, because of less space overall in your nat, sothat the defending units are forced to stand at the front and this leads to a much wider range of attacks/angle of fire. I can't test it, but you should. numbers are not everything although I love the analyzer.
:D You're right, numbers aren't everything! I just put the numbers on it, and the side-by-side 1:1 image so we can truly compare them.
Let me ask you something, if you only placed 1 bunker for each of these naturals, where would you put it? I think on Metal it pretty much goes flush with the main ramp, and your extra units stand north of your CC to keep harass from sneaking in on the double-gas side.
Now where would you put a bunker on Premiere? I think it goes just above where I wrote 18.9, a little out from the main ramp and protecting much more of the attackable vectors into the natural.
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thanks for the replays, amigo, I put them in the OP
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Picture Jimmy blowing bullets through a Brutalisk twisted goup splattering all over the wall, on the latest hyped movie poster...
<3 the red carpet
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ados, thanks for the pretty overview pic, added to the OP
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1. The replays gets me a bit unexcited about the map. Both players seems to like it beacue the distance between nats makes nothing happen and you can concentrate on teh big battle at the nat. Nothing complicated in between - very clean and thats how some players probably want it the game to be like.
2. Hopefully, that just how ppl play the first games until they bgin to see the potential of the map features, such as when Zerg (in the replays) tries to choke up the middle ramp with spine crawlers and queens, but getting attacked from the side-lane high ground and pawned. Next time, he will have scouts there (hopefully).
3. I liked how the players used the LoSBalcony by the nat for proxy pylons and scouting. Want to see island and tower being used, though.
Love the red carpet. You used that texture for the carpet only, right? Also liked another fine detail - the little house on the island by the tower. "Do not enter" is old, though
BTW is the map published on EU? It's weird, how else I can watch the replays. Do the replay file hold the map as well?
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