Still congrats :D if anyone glad they picked ur map <3
[M] (2) ESV Korhal Compound - Page 4
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HuKPOWA
United States1604 Posts
Still congrats :D if anyone glad they picked ur map <3 | ||
Barrin
United States5003 Posts
Helps with runby's if they try to push your third with sieges/etc, and they can defensively deal with the openness better than the other races in the early/mid game. BTW I expect this map to be well within 44-55 balance winrates, but for the record I've predicted Z to be on the 45-50 side of things in both ZvP and ZvT for a while. This with metagame in mind, so many zergs are still unable to play army-heavy trying to dictate the pace of the game - if you can do that you'll do more than fine on this map as Z. But we'll see. | ||
Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
On February 15 2012 15:09 RumbleBadger wrote: Just realized something interesting about this map... four bases is easier to defend than three. Allow me to explain: -snip- Doesn't really take into account more ground to cover against drops etc, but yeah I can see how that works. Just remember that the 4 base "defensive positions" are further away, so reinforcements will arrive later negating much of the defensive advantage. | ||
Barrin
United States5003 Posts
While not precisely accurate, the idea and what you probably mean to say is absolutely true Let me put it this way: going from 2 bases to 3 bases is much more difficult than going from 3 bases to 4 bases. Very cool IMO... this dynamic should become far more common in in all it's various ways. In fact you might as well just sit on 2 til near the end of the midgame and go straight from 2 to 4.. or at least skew towards this. | ||
wrl
United States209 Posts
The real issue I observed playing on this map on ladder was that its extremely easy to turtle mid to late game, but I'm not sure there are enough bases to take advantage of the map control you get against a turtling player. That said its a breath of fresh air on the ladder, and is more fun than Blizzard's previous offerings. | ||
Aeceus
United Kingdom1278 Posts
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Timetwister22
United States538 Posts
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wrl
United States209 Posts
On February 16 2012 05:51 Aeceus wrote: how do you even win ZvT on this map? seems hard... any advice? Have to drag it in to the late late late game and keep the terran contained to 4 bases, taking the other 6 yourself. Feed it into broodlords and find an opening to attack into. There is one deadspot behind the fourth you can use to morph in some broods and another outside the main. | ||
Green Sun s Zenith
Canada85 Posts
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RumbleBadger
322 Posts
But like others have said, I didn't account for air coverage or anything. Now is this a bad thing? Again, I can't say for sure... but as a zerg player I'd probably go for a fairly standard lair tech off two bases (pretty fast tier 2) and then expand off that tech. But instead of just taking a third, I'd probably try to take a third and then a fourth like right after that. | ||
Barrin
United States5003 Posts
In general, it is very difficult to take a third. Or expand past your natural in general. It is feasible, just very difficult... serious map control and creep spread is pivotal for taking a 3rd/4th, if you choose that path. The thing is it's really kinda easy to deny a third or have your third denied. Personally, I'm relatively comfortable playing like this. Always saturate both main and natural at a quick pace. Always consider your third expendable until you have 1000 minerals in defense at it ^^ ZvT: Your midgame focus is taking your third. Do it slowly. SPREAD YOUR CREEP. A LOT (extra queen). Zerglings/banelings with extremely fast upgrades are your friend, use these for MAP CONTROL (let me say that again - MAP CONTROL - that is the name of the game in ZvT). Some combination of crawlers/roaches/mutas if he's massing hellions. Normal transition into brood lord to break, don't wait long because it's hard to afford vikings with low economy. ZvP: Protoss 2-base > Zerg 2-base -.-.-.- ...At least, if you wait too long ^_^_^_^ If you think about this matchup from a Protoss perspective, they really really really want to get that max 2-base economy ASAP. They want the deathball asap and if they can time it right it's just over immediately (a protoss deathball at the right time is especially strong as hell at the outer entrance to the third, try to cut them off mid-map). They are usually not shy about doing a forge FE. There's actually plenty of ways to play this, but most of the best ones involve going damn near all-in twice or more before thinking about taking a third base. You want to stop them from getting 2-base saturation at all costs. 8-pool into more shenanigans is my preference. 2-base roach/ling works like a charm. hydra first with slings im sure is great. work your way into mutas. throw in a nydus occasionally to throw em off. In the "mid/late" game (still before 3rd base), try to have good creep spread while massing roaches/lings between your crawlers while harassing with mutas. If it comes down to collosus (ball), upgrades or you'll never be cost efficient. I believe this map significantly favors P. ZvZ: If he can take his third and you can't take yours, just gg if you don't think you can win with an all-in. Pretty much. Lots of 2-base stuff. Immediate roaches to defend 2-base against banelings is unusually uncommon. Mutas are unusually common. People like to mass roaches or upgrades or a little of both... it's hard to get the gas for infestors. Which makes them that much stronger. Again, lots of 2-base stuff. I has replays :D These are not ladder games, just practice. Carefully picked, they're not bad. me (Z) vs Dambi (master Z) http://www.mediafire.com/?ggn1yjczd9k7elf me (z) vs TofuSurprize (diamond P) http://www.mediafire.com/?l68774cn883zbr1 me (z) vs iCarly (master T) http://www.mediafire.com/?b912x0u84974o6x These might not be the best games in the world. But as you watch them (if you do), at all points try to think about how much you would need to do to take a third (or another) base. BTW my creep spread is absolutely horrible. I kinda wanna show why I originally felt so much circle syndrome on this map, and why I do again. Gravity perspective. + Show Spoiler + It's mostly about how the "light" third (as opposed to a medium or heavy third) doesn't give much emphasis to actually connecting the 4-base line, which otherwise is quite small enough. It's that in combination with the relatively small distance between your "medium" fourth base and the enemy's heavy natural, and vice versa. It is a relatively weak circuit, but a circuit nonetheless. --- Doing all of these games on this map was a really good experience. | ||
SoapSC
Netherlands112 Posts
There is a small gap between the outer mineral and the gas that seems to be open, but actually you cant move any unit trough it. It doesnt works with zealots or workers, maybe a zergling would fit trough i havent tested that yet. I didn't found it thread worthy so i just searched for the thread of the map. EDIT: After further testing it out it seems that the movement only gets blocked if you make a gas and zerglings cant move trough it either. | ||
darkscream
Canada2310 Posts
ZVP: the main is pretty big. Do what looks standard (14p 16h) but sneak a drone in their main and proxy hatch(instead of quick 3rd).... proxy roaches before warpgate timing >_> | ||
DeltruS
Canada2214 Posts
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hillman
United States162 Posts
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EatThePath
United States3943 Posts
On February 21 2012 04:13 SoapSC wrote: I think i found a minor bug on this map. + Show Spoiler + There is a small gap between the outer mineral and the gas that seems to be open, but actually you cant move any unit trough it. It doesnt works with zealots or workers, maybe a zergling would fit trough i havent tested that yet. I didn't found it thread worthy so i just searched for the thread of the map. EDIT: After further testing it out it seems that the movement only gets blocked if you make a gas and zerglings cant move trough it either. That's just how adjacent resources work, and the footprint of the geyser is different than the footprint of the various gas buildings. Corner to corner resources are different than corner to corner buildings in that they don't allow enough space for units to pass. It looks like otherwise sometimes. Not a bug just how the game is. | ||
GTPGlitch
5061 Posts
Heck, as a T I just throw a planetary and some turrets/a sensor tower down near the fourth (planetary goes next to the choke, but not where a normal CC would go) while I take my third. Much easier to defend from that position than having to actively defend from low ground. This map is a ton of fun in any case~TvT is especially enjoyable :3 | ||
kcdc
United States2311 Posts
For reference, I'm high Masters P, and all my experiences with this map have come on NA ladder against top 10 Masters to top GM. The #1 issue with the map, from a Protoss perspective, is that there's no good way to take a third base against speed roaches. Protoss can position his army at the 2nd or the third, leaving the other undefended, or he can position his army between the two exposing himself to a massive surround with his back up against that outcropping of trees with no space to micro. This could be fixed a few different ways. -close off 1 of the two paths between the natural and the tower to create a single entrance into the where P wants to position his army. This solves the flank problem and gives P lanes to micro back from an attack. This leaves no open space in front of the natural, however, so it's not my preferred solution. -Looking at the top half of the map, you could move the ramp from the natural to the third a bit to the left to lengthen the distance an attacker must travel to bounce between the natural and the third. Then give the defender a more direct path with a backdoor entrance to the natural from the third. Bock this path with a destructible rock to keep FFE viable. You might also shift the position of the mineral line slightly further left so that the defensive distance isn't too short. This keeps the base at the third exposed with 2 attack paths for the Z, but P doesn't have to march his army through a kill zone in order to attempt to defend. The second problem I've found is that there's not an an open area where you can fight colossi+forcefields with a low tech army. This comes up when you expand in PvP and the other player goes for a 1-base colossus push. Currently, the best place to defend seems to be as the attacker comes up the ramp due south from the top natural, but that position is just a little too small with forcefieldable chokes at the ramp and a short distance north of the ramp between the edge of the main and the tree that splits the attack paths to the natural. If that area were just a tiny bit bigger, it would solve the problem. I imagine that Terrans and Zergs would also appreciate a slightly larger open area there to defend against forcefields+colossi. I do love the map for PvT tho. It's my favorite map in the pool for that MU because it produces constant back and forth action with lots of counter-attacking and positional defenses. The watchtowers seem to change hands every other minute. | ||
Areon
United States273 Posts
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skatbone
United States1005 Posts
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