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The back door into the gold is very interesting, curious to see what comes out of that ;D
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Let's be honest: it's no fire and ice map.
On a serious note, it looks great, prodiG. Can't wait to test it out.
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Looks amazing @.@ Just out of curiosity, why did you remove the 5th base next to the gold?
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Was excited to see the finished product ever since you posted that blog entry about it. Looks so good. Might just go test play it now!
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On October 31 2011 13:33 phathom321 wrote: Looks amazing @.@ Just out of curiosity, why did you remove the 5th base next to the gold? The map team and I talked about it and we decided it didn't flow right.
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The way the alternate map splits is incentivized with the gold (and I mean specifically the proportions and distance to the gold), very well done! Thoroughly pleased with prodig's first map since going dark. =)
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I like it. It has character.
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I haven't seen the other entries, but I've been really liking this map since you first posted about it. Really hoping this wins, it looks sick and having an ESV map considered for the official ladder map pool would be nerd chill material.
Already played on the unfinished version of the map, can't wait to try it out now that it's done.
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Really like it. Can't wait to see some high level games played on it!
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This is what I see as a diamond level protoss player.
Looks like a lot a room for protoss abuse. Particularly the backdoor pathway from the gold. Looks like you could put a pylon up top hugging the rocks and then warp down onto the backdoor lane allowing you to attack from a position unavailable to other races in the early game. Also 3 bases all very close in proximity, with the added benefit of the nat being on highground that you can FFE on. Collosus would seem to dominate on this map as well. With so many cliffs around the first 3 bases protoss would seem to have a very easy time holding most all-ins. There are also a great deal of chokes making forcefields very strong both offensively and defensively.
Aside from that I see positioning tanks along the backdoor path to the gold to deny the nat as a real annoying thing terran could abuse.
I don't play zerg, but this map looks like a zergs nightmare. I don't mean to trash on the map, cause I think it's aesthetic looks awesome, and I'm just a diamond player, my understanding of how the map would work might not be that great.
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On October 31 2011 14:08 Downside wrote: This is what I see as a diamond level protoss player.
Looks like a lot a room for protoss abuse. Particularly the backdoor pathway from the gold. Looks like you could put a pylon up top hugging the rocks and then warp down onto the backdoor lane allowing you to attack from a position unavailable to other races in the early game. Also 3 bases all very close in proximity, with the added benefit of the nat being on highground that you can FFE on. Collosus would seem to dominate on this map as well. With so many cliffs around the first 3 bases protoss would seem to have a very easy time holding most all-ins. There are also a great deal of chokes making forcefields very strong both offensively and defensively.
Not my first rodeo. Fixed the pylon warpin well before the map was even in beta. The majority of the cliffs aren't pathable so Colossus don't have much to abuse.
Aside from that I see positioning tanks along the backdoor path to the gold to deny the nat as a real annoying thing terran could abuse. This is intended. If you let a terran player drop a pile of tanks in your backdoor are you actually going to blame the map?
I don't play zerg, but this map looks like a zergs nightmare. I don't mean to trash on the map, cause I think it's aesthetic looks awesome, and I'm just a diamond player, my understanding of how the map would work might not be that great.
Give the map a few tries and tell me what you think ;D
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what about pvp? since the main to natural doesnt have a ramp doesnt that mean that 4 gate will be dominate for that match up since it relies heavily on there being a ramp for ff's and vision?
great map, really creative i love the back door, and great all around expansions. zerg could take a quick third too and defend it against a protoss going ffe.
good size ramps and not out of the way so if zerg wants to flank they are able to do so in a decent amount of time, many different paths which is nice to see, good use of rocks also.
i would actually love to play on this map.
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Wow. As always a beautiful map by prodiG.
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Looks great! Would love some pro matches on this map! :DD
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This looks like a really great map!
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This looks like a really cool map. I'm afraid it may be a little terran favored with all the cliffs and high-ground, but I'd have to see actual matches on it to really tell. Good to see new maps coming out!
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On October 31 2011 14:08 Downside wrote: This is what I see as a diamond level protoss player.
Looks like a lot a room for protoss abuse. Particularly the backdoor pathway from the gold. Looks like you could put a pylon up top hugging the rocks and then warp down onto the backdoor lane allowing you to attack from a position unavailable to other races in the early game. Also 3 bases all very close in proximity, with the added benefit of the nat being on highground that you can FFE on. Collosus would seem to dominate on this map as well. With so many cliffs around the first 3 bases protoss would seem to have a very easy time holding most all-ins. There are also a great deal of chokes making forcefields very strong both offensively and defensively.
Aside from that I see positioning tanks along the backdoor path to the gold to deny the nat as a real annoying thing terran could abuse.
I don't play zerg, but this map looks like a zergs nightmare. I don't mean to trash on the map, cause I think it's aesthetic looks awesome, and I'm just a diamond player, my understanding of how the map would work might not be that great.
Well as a diamond level protoss as well as Zerg player i actually think the opposite.
The additional pathways mean if a Zerg does an early pool there are more than enough pathways for them to attack through (after breaking the appropriate rocks of course). I am personally of the opinion that I would not recommend FFE on this map and as a zerg if i saw someone go for it those rocks by the gold would be a main focus of my early lings cause if he's unprepared for attack from that lane well.... gg. Also, if a Protoss neglects to kill a drone that slips down into that pathway... they may get surprised with a proxy hatch.
From my point of view I would think that it would favor Zerg slightly but of course I'll have to play it first to be sure .
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I think the map looks great and the back door gold is an interesting idea but I can't see this being balanced for zerg due to the lack of mobility and ability to get a surround.
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I love it! Looks like it has potential to either already be well balanced, or at least be balanced after a few iterations.
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this looks like prime 4gate PvP material
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So I heard you liked base races, so I added a back door to your back door, so you can go back door while you back door. Its so choky that engaging feels like a really bad idea unless you get a miracle surround which is only really possible for zerg, but really hard for them aswell. Thankfully there are so many paths that go to every side of every base that nobody really has to make an engagement on this map like ever. I dont know if I can find a situation playing as terran or protoss vs anyrace, that I wouldnt feel horrified leaving my easy 3 bases. I would just want sit around and close my eyes to the dangers the rest of the map provides.
I dont think the map is so bad per say, but it physically scares me, and when ladder fear on normal maps is still a general problem, I dont think this map would fit the ladder map pool.
I might seem crazy saying that, but its honestly the best way I can describe my feelings on this map.
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I'm liking that back door gold... This would be fun to play on a couple times for testing, and then maybe make some tweaks, (or not, if they aren't needed) and then it'd be great :D
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Why must map makers still make maps with no ramp at the main. Along with the abusable back door and the fact you can plant tanks or colossus on the backdoor and completely deny the mineral line at the natural makes this map absolutely terrible for pvp, it would also be ridiculous trying to hold a 1-1-1 in pvt if they go through the backdoor.
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As a Zerg it makes me cringe when i see this map that ramp at the natural
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On October 31 2011 18:17 XRaDiiX wrote:As a Zerg it makes me cringe when i see this map that ramp at the natural
What about the many entrances?
edit: ooo i see, rocks to get in the back. didnt see em by the gold. interesting
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I like the general design and different style of plays this map will indulge.
But as a protoss/terran player, I think the area to have vision of, to prevent a Nydus is far too big. It's mostly because of the backdoor alley towards the gold, but while it is very frightening for Zerg because nydus allow them to send their whole army into your base, I can also imagine it being a pain using medivac with tanks drop down there or early warp prism in PvZ/T. That means you can't fast expand easily on this map because of these kind of plays. I'm not fond of a map forcing me to stay longer on 1 base.
Smaller main bases and easier to have control of back-alley and I'm sold
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this is not zerg friendly at all, too many cliffs/chokes. tanks and colossus would easily be the best units for the map
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A really nice map, job well done. The attack routes are nicely done and could make for good games. My only concern is that the middle of the map wont be used at all do to the lack of expasions there.
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United States7166 Posts
zerg's nightmare. too narrow/cramped, particularly the strip running down the center. considerably more difficult than say Crossfire SE which also similarly had so many chokes/narrow passageways. but the long map architecture helped a lot for creating space and making counterattacks very effective. this map looks much harder to do that.
there are only 2 wide open areas on the map that aren't even key positions and are avoidable.
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Wow, this map is extremely complicated, yet it's the high quality product you'd expect from someone like prodiG!
I am a bit concerned about those gold bases, it just seems like Terran would take them as third aaall the time and then drop 1000 MULEs as always. That's more of a problem of balance tho and that Terran profits more from golds and is just way more flexible in every aspect. You just can't make a map shit for Terran unless it's as big as Tal'Darim I feel like. So I would say that's a bit of a problem but something Blizz has to fix and this map layout still looks amazing.
Aesthetics are absolute top level as always. Someone finally bothered to cut out Typhon Bricks (I guess in this case the Zhakul'Das ones) correctly and not be blizz-lazy about it! Also I loove that you used the textures of Neo Enigma in the main again, imo the best looking mains I have seen in any Xel'Naga Cavern's like style. And that blue water in this theme is a joy to look at!
All in all you come back to the scene just to create one of the favorites for TL contest/IPL contest, n1
edit: Btw can you (and other ESV members...yes I'm looking at you monitor) please start to post analyzer pictures? It's really one more minute of work and it helps semi-good mapmakers like me a lot to understand the map and learn from it.
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Interesting map, nicely done. I wish they implement it in the tournaments.
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Ok, i never post on a thread normally but this is just fabulous I don't know if it's balanced or if it's good at a high level, but I'm so excited to test it. Is there any link so we can get the map?
This is what makes SC2 go bigger everyday. You put in a lot of work.
Congratz, and go ahead!
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just take out the gold bases makes for unfair spawns and whats the point of gold minerals in this map anyways its huge
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Broken for TvZ way too many overpowered siege set-up areas especially behind natural.
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This map looks really really bad for P. No ramp so you have to FFE, backdoors that make FFEing really hard? Stuff of nightmares. The whole 'deal with it' if people siege behind your mineral line is also a bit annoying. You can't always prevent a tank push when it hits. Imagine trying to break a tank line in that alley as a zerg, that's horrifying.
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China6270 Posts
Isn't the main choke a bit wide? Also the non-ramp main choke reminds me of Tal'darim Altar which force 4 Gate PvP play. Also back door to the main and pathable low ground behind natural are really bad ideas.
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I like it. Let's play ^^.
On October 31 2011 20:18 Eccho wrote: Ok, i never post on a thread normally but this is just fabulous I don't know if it's balanced or if it's good at a high level, but I'm so excited to test it. Is there any link so we can get the map?
This is what makes SC2 go bigger everyday. You put in a lot of work.
Congratz, and go ahead!
Edit: If you go search the maps you can type ESV and it should come up. Not sure if he uploaded on EU as of yet!
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Can't wait to try it out today! Also, Mastodon is the best! I'm not feeling The Hunter quite as much, but they will always be my favorite!
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Dominican Republic275 Posts
Seems like an interesting map, and it's beautiful btw. A thing that I think could get some toughts would be a way for reapers to get from the gold to the backdoor. For now if you enter the base with reapers from the main o the natural there's no real way to get out. There's no real way to spot if your enemy took its natural with an overlord. And finally it seems like without rocks in the backdoor, its pretty sensible to warp from a pylon (I like it as it is though).
Nice map I'll try it when I can.
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Looks fantastic looks like a solid 2 player map with good paths and rocks used the way rocks SHOULD be used.
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Wow it looks really cool. Just one question : why the gold ? doesn't look especially hard to defend...
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Fantastic, as always. Damn you, prodiG, for being so good at map-making! It both inspires me to make try harder while simultaneously killing my dreams of having my maps actually played on at the same time. How am I supposed to compete with this?
Srsly, amazing map. I love the large number of paths between bases, and I love the protected backdoor hallway into the main. This is a very fun map to play on as a Zerg. I'm definitely going to add this to the map pool of the next tournament we host.
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Jesus, beautiful map! But I dont like any map with gold bases T_T
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I should add "by prodiG" to the title of my map threads as well. Instant 3 pages of replies!
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I really like this map but pvp would be a 4gate feast
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This is a very cool map. You can divide the map pretty much anyway you chose, there are lots of different pathways, and you have a cool, new backdoor expansion. I can't say much about that, but it looks cool.
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man, i can't wait to see the zany games this map produces.
keep it up guy
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On October 31 2011 19:41 Ragoo wrote:Wow, this map is extremely complicated, yet it's the high quality product you'd expect from someone like prodiG! I am a bit concerned about those gold bases, it just seems like Terran would take them as third aaall the time and then drop 1000 MULEs as always. That's more of a problem of balance tho and that Terran profits more from golds and is just way more flexible in every aspect. You just can't make a map shit for Terran unless it's as big as Tal'Darim I feel like. So I would say that's a bit of a problem but something Blizz has to fix and this map layout still looks amazing. Aesthetics are absolute top level as always. Someone finally bothered to cut out Typhon Bricks (I guess in this case the Zhakul'Das ones) correctly and not be blizz-lazy about it! Also I loove that you used the textures of Neo Enigma in the main again, imo the best looking mains I have seen in any Xel'Naga Cavern's like style. And that blue water in this theme is a joy to look at! All in all you come back to the scene just to create one of the favorites for TL contest/IPL contest, n1 edit: Btw can you (and other ESV members...yes I'm looking at you monitor) please start to post analyzer pictures? It's really one more minute of work and it helps semi-good mapmakers like me a lot to understand the map and learn from it. I'm concerned about the gold too. After testing if it looks like I need to change it to a normal expansion or add more rocks or something to it then I will but for now I'm going to stick to a more experimental design :>
As for the map analyzer... Bleh, haven't touched it in so long :< Maybe~
On October 31 2011 23:20 Archvil3 wrote: I should add "by prodiG" to the title of my map threads as well. Instant 3 pages of replies! hahahahaha! :3
Thanks for the feedback everyone. Every map I've ever made where people complain about Zerg having a hard time seems to turn out to be Zerg favored, so I'm glad to see that this map is getting an extra helping of that (and if it turns out Zerg gets rolled ez on here I've got changes in mind already)
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On November 01 2011 01:53 prodiG wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 31 2011 19:41 Ragoo wrote:Wow, this map is extremely complicated, yet it's the high quality product you'd expect from someone like prodiG! I am a bit concerned about those gold bases, it just seems like Terran would take them as third aaall the time and then drop 1000 MULEs as always. That's more of a problem of balance tho and that Terran profits more from golds and is just way more flexible in every aspect. You just can't make a map shit for Terran unless it's as big as Tal'Darim I feel like. So I would say that's a bit of a problem but something Blizz has to fix and this map layout still looks amazing. Aesthetics are absolute top level as always. Someone finally bothered to cut out Typhon Bricks (I guess in this case the Zhakul'Das ones) correctly and not be blizz-lazy about it! Also I loove that you used the textures of Neo Enigma in the main again, imo the best looking mains I have seen in any Xel'Naga Cavern's like style. And that blue water in this theme is a joy to look at! All in all you come back to the scene just to create one of the favorites for TL contest/IPL contest, n1 edit: Btw can you (and other ESV members...yes I'm looking at you monitor) please start to post analyzer pictures? It's really one more minute of work and it helps semi-good mapmakers like me a lot to understand the map and learn from it. I'm concerned about the gold too. After testing if it looks like I need to change it to a normal expansion or add more rocks or something to it then I will but for now I'm going to stick to a more experimental design :> + Show Spoiler +As for the map analyzer... Bleh, haven't touched it in so long :< Maybe~ On October 31 2011 23:20 Archvil3 wrote: I should add "by prodiG" to the title of my map threads as well. Instant 3 pages of replies! hahahahaha! :3 Thanks for the feedback everyone. Every map I've ever made where people complain about Zerg having a hard time seems to turn out to be Zerg favored, so I'm glad to see that this map is getting an extra helping of that (and if it turns out Zerg gets rolled ez on here I've got changes in mind already)
I feel like having a regular base so far off really does not pay off. When you compare how few space you have to control to get three base mining (and also four), the gold position would not be used by opening the backdoor that much. this would make it less of an option really. you then have a regular base as fifth and you only expand counterclockwise in most games.
so it is not that much about having an option and you would have even fewer chances to different map split scenarios, which is a pitty cause the central ridge is great imo.
rest is so so in my opinion. flat choke is questionable. and as i said there is very few stuff to control to have three bases (with the only downside the flat choke)
doddading is a bit random and textures seem a bit rushed tbh.some spots were forgotten here and there where the tiles and the obsidian like stiff is. then the selection of textureswhere and how you applied them looks almost work in progress. would have expected more here from such an experienced and well known mapper
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Just looking at this map gets me all excited. It seems like it's impossible to shut down attacks simply by holding the middle. There's too many other paths around the edges to sneak on through. It almost seems like having a "death ball" could really hurt you in this map...
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On November 01 2011 02:17 Samro225am wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 01:53 prodiG wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 31 2011 19:41 Ragoo wrote:Wow, this map is extremely complicated, yet it's the high quality product you'd expect from someone like prodiG! I am a bit concerned about those gold bases, it just seems like Terran would take them as third aaall the time and then drop 1000 MULEs as always. That's more of a problem of balance tho and that Terran profits more from golds and is just way more flexible in every aspect. You just can't make a map shit for Terran unless it's as big as Tal'Darim I feel like. So I would say that's a bit of a problem but something Blizz has to fix and this map layout still looks amazing. Aesthetics are absolute top level as always. Someone finally bothered to cut out Typhon Bricks (I guess in this case the Zhakul'Das ones) correctly and not be blizz-lazy about it! Also I loove that you used the textures of Neo Enigma in the main again, imo the best looking mains I have seen in any Xel'Naga Cavern's like style. And that blue water in this theme is a joy to look at! All in all you come back to the scene just to create one of the favorites for TL contest/IPL contest, n1 edit: Btw can you (and other ESV members...yes I'm looking at you monitor) please start to post analyzer pictures? It's really one more minute of work and it helps semi-good mapmakers like me a lot to understand the map and learn from it. I'm concerned about the gold too. After testing if it looks like I need to change it to a normal expansion or add more rocks or something to it then I will but for now I'm going to stick to a more experimental design :> + Show Spoiler +As for the map analyzer... Bleh, haven't touched it in so long :< Maybe~ On October 31 2011 23:20 Archvil3 wrote: I should add "by prodiG" to the title of my map threads as well. Instant 3 pages of replies! hahahahaha! :3 Thanks for the feedback everyone. Every map I've ever made where people complain about Zerg having a hard time seems to turn out to be Zerg favored, so I'm glad to see that this map is getting an extra helping of that (and if it turns out Zerg gets rolled ez on here I've got changes in mind already) I feel like having a regular base so far off really does not pay off. When you compare how few space you have to control to get three base mining (and also four), the gold position would not be used by opening the backdoor that much. this would make it less of an option really. you then have a regular base as fifth and you only expand counterclockwise in most games. so it is not that much about having an option and you would have even fewer chances to different map split scenarios, which is a pitty cause the central ridge is great imo. rest is so so in my opinion. flat choke is questionable. and as i said there is very few stuff to control to have three bases (with the only downside the flat choke) doddading is a bit random and textures seem a bit rushed tbh.some spots were forgotten here and there where the tiles and the obsidian like stiff is. then the selection of textureswhere and how you applied them looks almost work in progress. would have expected more here from such an experienced and well known mapper
I kept the doodading and texturing to a minimum for the TL map contest. I could have done more with it all but I decided against it in favor of things like performance and Blizzard potentially redoing the doodads and textures if they choose the map for ladder.
I'm considering making the main high ground but the problem with that is it'll make everything look a little silly (need double ramps to link the backdoor to the main and a small camera buffer between main & lowground third) amongst many other things based on feedback 8)
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This map is gorgeous! I'd love to see how it plays out. Good luck to you!
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This looks awesome. Even after just a cursory glance, I love how you gave a backdoor to the main through the gold. This looks like it'd promote really aggressive play with that incredibly difficult to hold 3rd base. The only criticism I'd have is the backdoor rocks to the nat and the placement of the high ground by the 4th base (looks like with proper positioning, it'd be possibly to completely deny reinforcements there and is also virtually unassailable). On the whole though, this maps looks really balanced and awesome, and I can't wait to see some high level plays on this!
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The backdoor from the gold is kinda like the backdoor on the old Shakuras, not sure if it's a good idea considering what Terran could do with it on Shakuras :<.
I'm no map expert though, so perhaps it's okay.
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Can't terran just easily defend the third by having siege tanks in their main? The natural also seems quite easily defended by siege tanks.
Overall, the map seems quite Terran-favored, which is the opposite of what you want with the current state of the game.
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On November 01 2011 03:50 Paladia wrote: Can't terran just easily defend the third by having siege tanks in their main? The natural also seems quite easily defended by siege tanks.
Overall, the map seems quite Terran-favored, which is the opposite of what you want with the current state of the game. tanks would splash all of their own stuff, you would reach much farther than where the CC would be placed. lings in the mineral line for example would get hit by tanks and splash the scv's that the lings are attacking.
The idea here is that the lowground third expansion is easier to take than backdooring out to the gold and taking an expansion that would spread you that much more thinly. You can take the lowground third and if you're holding the xel'naga tower next to your gold expansion you will have a pretty easy time spotting huge incoming backdoor flanks
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This is one of the best maps I have seen in a long time. Well done
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On October 31 2011 19:31 Zelniq wrote: zerg's nightmare. too narrow/cramped, particularly the strip running down the center. considerably more difficult than say Crossfire SE which also similarly had so many chokes/narrow passageways. but the long map architecture helped a lot for creating space and making counterattacks very effective. this map looks much harder to do that.
there are only 2 wide open areas on the map that aren't even key positions and are avoidable.
Definitely agree counter-attacks could be good on this map but i don't like all the Chokes This map Reminds me of the new GSL map! By JackyPrime so many Chokes and Ramps!!!!
JackyPrimes map has like a Billion Counter-Attack Paths though
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This looks like a very interesting and dynamic map! I love the concept of multiple ways to split the map. Seems like a pretty fair map in terms of races and play styles, too; a short enough rush distance for various early pressure builds to work, an easily taken nat and a couple options for a quick third that rely on strong map control... I'm no expert theory crafter, but my untrained eyes like what they see. It's a very aesthetically pleasing map, too. Great job!
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United States9607 Posts
who's back? sexy's back (AKA ProdiG!!!)
interesting backdoor gold, and since the 4th is going to be so close to the gold, will be interesting to see what kind of battles materialize.
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Looks like a really nice map, though idk how i feel about the narrow high ground seperating it. Seems ridic easy for a Terran to set up a line of tanks on it ;\ but i do hope it gets a chance to be played a lot
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Fuck yeah prodiG you are the best! : )
And you love big mains, eh?^^
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On November 01 2011 04:01 prodiG wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 03:50 Paladia wrote: Can't terran just easily defend the third by having siege tanks in their main? The natural also seems quite easily defended by siege tanks.
Overall, the map seems quite Terran-favored, which is the opposite of what you want with the current state of the game. tanks would splash all of their own stuff, you would reach much farther than where the CC would be placed. lings in the mineral line for example would get hit by tanks and splash the scv's that the lings are attacking. The idea here is that the lowground third expansion is easier to take than backdooring out to the gold and taking an expansion that would spread you that much more thinly. You can take the lowground third and if you're holding the xel'naga tower next to your gold expansion you will have a pretty easy time spotting huge incoming backdoor flanks Well, that siege tanks can splash their own stuff while defending an expansion is in my opinion a mute point as that can always happen regardless of placement. What is notable is that the siege tanks can defend it while not being attacked themselves. As you can lift off the expansion, it makes it almost unkillable for Zerg and Protoss unless they want to stand and attack it whilst being in siege fire.
This could be solved by placing some empty space behind the third that siege tanks cannot be placed upon, such as on Crevasse.
I may of course be wrong and the map is completely balanced but on first sight it does look favorable for Terran.
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On November 01 2011 19:41 Ragoo wrote: Fuck yeah prodiG you are the best! : )
And you love big mains, eh?^^ Yes. I've never felt that the standard main size was quite big enough and it's definitely something that we've talked about internally a lot. A main the size of the mains on Tal'Darim Altar should be the absolute bare minimum imo
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I don't like it, I would never feel totally safe unless I had both XWTs and there are periods of time where you simply don't have that. I understand that you didn't want to go with standard, albeit pretty map, but if I had to choose between Daybreak and this, Daybreak would win every single time, or any current GSL/MLG map
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On November 02 2011 02:39 prodiG wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 19:41 Ragoo wrote: Fuck yeah prodiG you are the best! : )
And you love big mains, eh?^^ Yes. I've never felt that the standard main size was quite big enough and it's definitely something that we've talked about internally a lot. A main the size of the mains on Tal'Darim Altar should be the absolute bare minimum imo I would really love to hear more about your thoughts on this. I personally disagree.
I think on the smallest of rush maps with a little extra room in the natural, main size of 22-23 CC's is perfectly fine. And huge maps like tal'darim altar shouldn't have mains much bigger (MAYBE a few CC's bigger at most on a very rare/unique(big) map).
My reasoning has mostly to do with scouting early/mid game scouting. The amount of production facilities needed to produce off of whatever mid/late game resource income that tends to be available on the map is also a big factor. I also think bigger mains let you ignore building placement too much. But it's mostly about early/mid game scouting.
Well damn this is related to what I was going to say about this map anyway so here I go:
I think if you were to lower the main size to a more normal size (like 30 - or at least that's what I call normal) you would notice a significant decrease in the analyzer openness. Something like 3.55, which is really getting in the danger zone (according to me at least - I used to call this low lvl of openness unacceptable (anything under 3.58), but I think as low as 3.3 *can* work (but not in any map I've seen yet).
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Anyways I want to backtrack a second because I wasn't even thinking about any of this when I saw your analyzer image and thought it wasn't open enough in most places (mains aside).
Before I saw your analyzer image I thought the map was truly fantastic... one of the most interesting and possibly best layouts I've seen (*besides one thing, I'll get to that).
I guess what I'm saying here is really simple: I think the map is too tight (not open enough).
That said, there is a lot of chokes contrasting heavily with large open areas. I like this. Perhaps those big open areas on the right and left are too open though (which on the analyzer number counteracts the low openness elsewhere, on top of the main doing the same). I don't feel like there's enough variation in choke width; main/nat/third aside, bases farther on should tend to have significantly (sometimes drastically) different openness levels on their chokes, either more open or less open (and they should tend to have more chokes which is done fine on this map).
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*So the one thing I don't like about the layout, other than openness, is a severe lack of ways to attain and assert map control. Explaining this is prbly more effort than it's worth; just something to think about.
Other than the low general openness and the lack of ways to attain and assert map control this map is very good at worst.
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thx for the writeup Barrin, pleasure to read as always ^_^
As far as map control is concerned, I wanted it to be hard to lock down your entire side of the map really easily. As usual I'll be sure to keep your concerns in mind as the general openness of the map seems to be a concern of a lot of people.
Let's start a bit of a discussion then. If you were to open certain areas of the map up a bit more, where would they be?
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The chokes into the gold expansion could be made larger, as well as the chokes into the 11 o'clock and 5 o'clock expansions. Just a little bit, like one ramp size larger. Those areas seem to stick out the most to me though.
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Ya sorry I meant to add that the lack of ways to attain/assert map control is probably part of this map's concept and is therefore plenty good. Especially because you meant to do it
I suppose I meant more for people to see it and that you usually shouldn't do it. But on this map is fine.
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You have good taste in music sir, great taste in maps as well. I love the atmosphere that your maps have.
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On November 02 2011 07:49 Barrin wrote:Ya sorry I meant to add that the lack of ways to attain/assert map control is probably part of this map's concept and is therefore plenty good. Especially because you meant to do it I suppose I meant more for people to see it and that you usually shouldn't do it. But on this map is fine. Yeah. One of the core ideas of the map is that you should constantly be under pressure to attack and/or defend and there should rarely be a dull moment.
On November 02 2011 08:11 Ulfsark wrote: You have good taste in music sir, great taste in maps as well. I love the atmosphere that your maps have. If you think I have good taste in music you must as well glad you like it!
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Do you think it's problematic that you can warp into the backdoor area from a pylon at the nat? It would be impossible to stop a 4gate from getting highground vision if they have two entrances.
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On January 05 2012 11:03 Gfire wrote: Do you think it's problematic that you can warp into the backdoor area from a pylon at the nat? It would be impossible to stop a 4gate from getting highground vision if they have two entrances. Yes and no, the map is sort of designed in such a way that if you lose control of that space you're in a lot of trouble. There's no denying this map is very punishing for mistakes in PvP. It can be dealt with by playing very carefully and doing builds that make sure you end up in control of your natural expansion so stuff like that doesn't happen, but for those who opt for more passive builds and get caught off guard by something like a well-hidden 4gate... I predict a lot of salt from those guys. PvP is such a volatile matchup that adaptability to both the map and your opponent is absolutely necessary and this map is no exception to that.
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To me it seems like Siege tanks and Pylons will be very powerful harassment tools. You can build a pylon above the destructible rocks on the west or east side and do a warp in and walk directly into the main. With tanks and medivac support you could besiege the natural from the low ground VERY EASILY. Otherwise, I like the high number of expansions and all of the odd attack routes.
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On January 05 2012 11:42 NinjaBeast wrote: To me it seems like Siege tanks and Pylons will be very powerful harassment tools. You can build a pylon above the destructible rocks on the west or east side and do a warp in and walk directly into the main. With tanks and medivac support you could besiege the natural from the low ground VERY EASILY. Otherwise, I like the high number of expansions and all of the odd attack routes. You can't warp in over the rocks like that (I think I posted a screenshot of exactly why elsewhere). The tank and medivac combo you describe is one of many ways the natural expansion can be harassed should your backdoor be taken like that.
Before a flock of nerds comes out of nowhere and scream imba because we've seen this on Lost Temple, I've seen things like this work in the past. (2) Leviathan by Boomstevo is a perfect example of how you can harass the natural but it can still be countered easily.
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This map looks SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO (ad infinitum, but i'll save the space)... Please get some pros to play on this. And will you guys at ESV get your awesome maps into the tournaments of 2012? I would love to see this map in an official map pool.
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On January 05 2012 11:06 prodiG wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 11:03 Gfire wrote: Do you think it's problematic that you can warp into the backdoor area from a pylon at the nat? It would be impossible to stop a 4gate from getting highground vision if they have two entrances. Yes and no, the map is sort of designed in such a way that if you lose control of that space you're in a lot of trouble. There's no denying this map is very punishing for mistakes in PvP. It can be dealt with by playing very carefully and doing builds that make sure you end up in control of your natural expansion so stuff like that doesn't happen, but for those who opt for more passive builds and get caught off guard by something like a well-hidden 4gate... I predict a lot of salt from those guys. PvP is such a volatile matchup that adaptability to both the map and your opponent is absolutely necessary and this map is no exception to that. Glad you feel that way. So often mappers remove anything that could be abused in the least, things that aren't really bad but only punish poor players, but add entertainment value as well. I think this is well inside the boundaries of balance, at least by today's understanding of the game. I think it makes sense to push it as far as possible and not be conservative in map making at this point.
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Fore some strange reason I can't find it on EU server =( Am I missing something?
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prodig, the new double ramp configuration looks weird to me. This is just aesthetics, but have you considered using a doodad wall with the same cliff level instead of a narrow cliff drop?
+ Show Spoiler [like this] +you have it this way. suggestion.
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It's not just aesthetics, because something tall there would block LoS unlike low ground.
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On January 08 2012 09:00 Gfire wrote: It's not just aesthetics, because something tall there would block LoS unlike low ground.
It doesn't have to, just take off the LosB block setting in data (if you're using something that has it). But good to note.
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On January 08 2012 08:45 EatThePath wrote:prodig, the new double ramp configuration looks weird to me. This is just aesthetics, but have you considered using a doodad wall with the same cliff level instead of a narrow cliff drop? + Show Spoiler [like this] +you have it this way. suggestion. I thought about it but I decided to keep it very clear to the player and I couldn't think of any doodads that I really wanted ot use in a situation like that. I felt like the majority of the applicable choices would stray too far from the original aesthetic concept, as well as projectiles looking strange as they clip through whatever doodad I'd place there to hit their target on the other side.
One of my major aesthetic goals with this map was to keep things relatively simple as it was designed originally for the TLMC with it's blizzard-looking restriction. This v1.1 update I actually lined up back in late November and just got around to finishing now.
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Yeah, but it would feel if they were tall. Tall in general, would make it hard to see low ground behind anyway, and probably separate the two sections more visually so you get the same look as before. Maybe some short doodads would be better anyway.
Hard to see how much pathable area is between the geyser and the doodads, too, and some distances like that are important.
You could also do low ground but make it in organic cliffs and make it look like a crack, which might look good.
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maps look good, but if i were the mapmaker, i would concider to "open" the mid a bit. too many chokes, too good for FFs and tanks imo. And another point: probably add another expansion at 5/11 o-clock? thats not needed though, i would just test it.
the general design is brilliant!
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Here's what they currently look like. I don't see any issues with the way it is now
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Sorry for thread necro but is there any way to have this published on EU? Rybaia had the same question about a month ago, didn't get any response.
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The map skin looks like an old stomped gum to me ^^
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