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On February 29 2012 17:41 shadymmj wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 13:27 prodiG wrote:Posted my thoughts on this In this blog post+ Show Spoiler [Please Don't Ruin Daybreak] +On February 29 2012 11:42 prodiG wrote:So Daybreak is getting in... That's great. But I have one question: In the TL Map Contest, Blizzard specifically indicated to the contest organizer that the bases should each have 8 mineral fields and 2 gas to avoid confusion for players at the lower levels. Some of you may remember the small controversy around the change from GSL Tal'Darim Altar which had its third at 6m1g. When it was added to ladder, it became Tal'Darim Altar LE and saw the third changed to 8m2g with the addition of destructible rocks. This was a pretty significant change, one that the map's creator LSPrime had not intended in it's original design (and one that if memory serves, he was pretty chapped about). If Blizzard continues to follow the protocol that they have in the past, all non-standard resource bases will be changed to 8m 2g. It's pretty fair to say that Daybreak is one of the most exciting and brilliant 2p map designs we've seen yet in competitive SC2, but changing the forward expansion to 8m2g has some pretty significant effects. Now players can start taking that expansion as their 4th, positioning their armies in such a way that makes it very easy to defend everything (centered around the Xel'Naga Tower nearby). Daybreak isn't an awesome map because of how defensive it is. It's awesome because of how much action it creates. The basetrades that occur because of the rush distance and the rocks in the middle path forcing players to cross the map in opposite directions often missing one another's army entirely. The strategic placement of armies and map control around the high ground pods & expansions at the 12 and 6. The action packed game that when doesn't end in a 2-base timing attack usually leads to an all-out war of attrition as players whittle each other down. All to that last forward base with 6 minerals and one gas. Please Blizzard. Please don't fix what's not broken. When you add Daybreak, don't change the expansion <3 Signed, prodiG Mapmaker & Commentator for ESV flat out disagree current daybreak is like metalopolis: it has a 3rd with a massive opening AND 2 pathways, one of which you must choose to go through. it creates unnecessary strain on the defender and like you said promotes base trades instead of real action. i don't think many people pay to play/watch base trades instead of army trades. if you look at fighting spirit, destination, tau cross, blah blah, the 3rds with gas always have a defenders advantage in a small choke, uphill ramp, or the ability to defend both the 2nd and 3rd simultaneously. the games may tend to become a NR 20 because the 4th is also not contested on the potential daybreak LE. what blizzard tends to do by changing the 4th will slow the game down somewhat on the ladder, which I think is still preferable to encouraging base trade scenarios. what i would do is to the remove the current third and its accompanying ramp into the natural, and restore the current "4th" to a full 3rd. then it will promote aggression. like this... of course then it might seem a bit small and with only 10 bases, it'd be the smallest map. may have to put some extra distance in the middle.
I don't think I've ever seen a base trade on daybreak. Can you point one out?
The third that you removed is fine, leave it as it is. You could take the third at the front and achieve that same defenders advantage, where defending the third would also defend the nat. Then the base you cut could be more like a free fourth. I think that's the best way to expand, and the zergs that rush to taking the third in the back should do so knowing that it's actually harder to defend than the one in the front with less minerals.
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There's already a thread in the sc2 general forum but well. The thing I'm wondering is if they include the 2 GSL maps, does it mean they won't include Ohana ? Or if they include 3 maps how many new ones will be removed ? I think Shattered Temple will leave but it may mean Khoral Compound leaves too because it may become redundant with Daybreak.
Blizzard picking GSL maps is a bit demagogic. Of course it's the right way to include maps that pros play so everyone experience what they experience, but imo it's just another popularity contest and it'll be harder for community maps to get in. People watch the GSL so maps are popular so they include them. Teamliquid makes a map contest, winning maps get popular so let's include these maps. Haven's Lagoon got really popular and if it got in the top 3 of the TL contest it would probably have been included too. They even said they may make an other map contest in the future, but there's already a map contest every month so it just shows they just want maps to get popular, not necessarily good maps.
I also agree with a176, "SC2 going from 2-base play to free-3rd-NR20 gameplay" and discussions in the custom maps forum hinted about this trend. I remember I complained about the first 3 bases layout being the same in all custom maps and people including Superouman said the purpose was to prevent 2 base pushes and that the layout was the only way not to have agression before the 3rd map is taken. And in most motm threads judges explained how better it was to have solid macro maps that forced to attack when people got a 200/200 army, that it was better to have huge fights. So yeah that's definetly where we're heading. Personally as a spectator I want to watch agression all game long not players selecting larvas for 20 minutes.
PS meta : just type daybreak base trade in google if you want, apparently this week end at MLG Ret vs Mvp map 3 was one.
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I don't get it, why do they put in maps that are scrapped by GSL for a long time? That doesn't make any sense. Now we might get Bel'Shir Beach, another auto downvote for Protoss players. -_-
Daybreak and Metropolis, absolut nobrainer.
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Everybody please vote for Bel'Shir and Daybreak. They are the maps that are used the most in foreign tournaments as well, we'd benefit more from Bel'Shir than Metropolis! Gogo!! )
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Ugh. All those maps are absolutely terrible. I'm not looking forward to this being implemented, my downvotes are already filled to the point where if one map+matchup shows up I just cheese because the alternative is even more stupid.
Bel'Shir Winter is the worst of all. It's like the map maker thought, "I know, for my next trick I'll figure out a way to make Tal'Dariim even worse!"
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Voted for Bel'shir and Daybreak!
So many cool games on those maps
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On February 29 2012 22:51 Bumblebee wrote:Everybody please vote for Bel'Shir and Daybreak. They are the maps that are used the most in foreign tournaments as well, we'd benefit more from Bel'Shir than Metropolis! Gogo!! )
Why not encourage the tournaments to switch to Metropolis for obvious reasons?
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Maybe if we vote for Bel'Shir Blizzard will actually try to fix the flat choke.. like.. changing the whole warpgate thing in HotS pls :<
Maybe they will just make the main one level higher instead tho, how it always should have been, cause PvP is broken on flat chokes (on Tal'Darim as well).
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Please more votes for Metropolis. Gogogogogo
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Can you build a wall on Daybreak to FFE in PvZ? The depot doesn't get in your way?
How about Metropolis - can you FFE? How strong is that metal on the backside?
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On February 29 2012 13:27 prodiG wrote:Posted my thoughts on this In this blog post+ Show Spoiler [Please Don't Ruin Daybreak] +On February 29 2012 11:42 prodiG wrote:So Daybreak is getting in... That's great. But I have one question: In the TL Map Contest, Blizzard specifically indicated to the contest organizer that the bases should each have 8 mineral fields and 2 gas to avoid confusion for players at the lower levels. Some of you may remember the small controversy around the change from GSL Tal'Darim Altar which had its third at 6m1g. When it was added to ladder, it became Tal'Darim Altar LE and saw the third changed to 8m2g with the addition of destructible rocks. This was a pretty significant change, one that the map's creator LSPrime had not intended in it's original design (and one that if memory serves, he was pretty chapped about). If Blizzard continues to follow the protocol that they have in the past, all non-standard resource bases will be changed to 8m 2g. It's pretty fair to say that Daybreak is one of the most exciting and brilliant 2p map designs we've seen yet in competitive SC2, but changing the forward expansion to 8m2g has some pretty significant effects. Now players can start taking that expansion as their 4th, positioning their armies in such a way that makes it very easy to defend everything (centered around the Xel'Naga Tower nearby). Daybreak isn't an awesome map because of how defensive it is. It's awesome because of how much action it creates. The basetrades that occur because of the rush distance and the rocks in the middle path forcing players to cross the map in opposite directions often missing one another's army entirely. The strategic placement of armies and map control around the high ground pods & expansions at the 12 and 6. The action packed game that when doesn't end in a 2-base timing attack usually leads to an all-out war of attrition as players whittle each other down. All to that last forward base with 6 minerals and one gas. Please Blizzard. Please don't fix what's not broken. When you add Daybreak, don't change the expansion <3 Signed, prodiG Mapmaker & Commentator for ESV
I'd just like to point out that the images of the maps on Blizzard's page might be already edited versions, and Daybreak still has a 6m1g show on it. I say this because the image of Dual Sight shows standard XN watchtower graphics, and not the tiny red/blue warpgates we're used to. I'm trying to remember the last game on Dual Sight I watched, but has it changed? Does it still have the (strange) towers? If so, Daybreak is probably already safe. If not, sorry, disregard this post.
Edit: wait, wait, there's no gold on that Dual Sight. Aren't the far corners gold bases? When did Dual Sight get changed?
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United States15536 Posts
On March 01 2012 01:33 Affluenza wrote: what is NR20?
Stands for "no rush 20 minutes"... an old standby for people (like myself) who were terrible at BW and just wanted to make kewl spaceships and go pewpew with a 200/200 army.
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I'm surprised Bel'Shir is getting so much support, honestly. In its current form it's, let's say, less than perfect. However, I strayed upon Crux's site once and spotted a Tal'Darim Altar SE, which has a raised main with a proper ramp, so maybe they can do something similar for Beach, if it makes it. If a change like that were to be implemented, I'd be all for it.
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On March 01 2012 01:31 Rigorous wrote: Can you build a wall on Daybreak to FFE in PvZ? The depot doesn't get in your way?
How about Metropolis - can you FFE? How strong is that metal on the backside? I think it's a yes for both of these questions. I've seen FFE on Metro many times, don't know Daybreak as well to confidently answer that question.
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pretty happy that Blizzard is doing this. I voted for Terminus and Daybreak, incidentally.
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On March 01 2012 01:42 Iranon wrote: Edit: wait, wait, there's no gold on that Dual Sight. Aren't the far corners gold bases? When did Dual Sight get changed? They got rid of golds on Dual Sight (and all maps) either this GSL season or last, don't remember which. Take your choice of gold minerals are retarded (still legit reasoning) or terrans could mule the crap out of it and get a better benefit than the other two races (no longer viable).
Anyway, I'm voting for Daybreak definitively, haven't decided on my second yet. All I know is it won't be Bel'shir.
If they did Xel'naga Fortress, I wonder if the watchtower would explode after a certain time like the actual GSL map...
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There's already a thread in the sc2 general forum but well. The thing I'm wondering is if they include the 2 GSL maps, does it mean they won't include Ohana ? Or if they include 3 maps how many new ones will be removed ? I think Shattered Temple will leave but it may mean Khoral Compound leaves too because it may become redundant with Daybreak Ohana is still going into ladder S7 (if it's not, we haven't heard anything about it). Blizzard has yet to announce what maps they will be removing but my guess is it will probably start with the oldest maps: Metal, Shattered and Shakuras.
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well i think it may also depend on the result of the poll. i don't see metal staying if they add metropolis for example.
anyway, i think daybreak is the most logical choice, altho you have to expect them to remove the half base. all the other maps aren't totally great imho. bel shir winter might be the second logical choice, but i voted for crevasse anyway because it has a much more original layout and playstyle
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