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Blistering Sands RE v1.2Made by: Gfire Published on: [AM]
This map is, quite obviously, a remake of Blistering Sands. It's something I've been meaning to do for a while. The distances are much larger than the original, to the point of being far too long before the rocks are taken down and hopefully playable afterwards. The natural is a bit easier to defend with a ramp now, and the walk distance from the natural to the backdoor rocks on the outside of the base is hopefully long enough that we don't get some of the issues the original map had.
In addition to that, there are 4 more bases. No gold currently but I might add them back in because of the last patch. Let me know what you think about that.
Pictures (Gameplay): + Show Spoiler [Analyzer] + + Show Spoiler [Angled Overview] +
Data (Gameplay):
- Playable Bounds: 152x120
- Main Choke <-> Main Choke Distance(s): 62
- Nat Choke <-> Nat Choke Distance(s): 52
- Backdoor Choke <-> Backdoor Choke Distance(s): 30
Change Log: + Show Spoiler +v1.2 - Release. v1.3 - Changed the main and natural ramps to it's more clear how to wall in. (Not updated in the images)
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I like it, it looks cool. I'm unsure if the backdoor is still a problem though. With both backdoors open, the distance is stupidly short, but just opening 1 doesn't shorten things by much. Still, with all the rocks facilitating access of the main, there might be potential PvP issues. I could be wrong, I haven't seen enough games on, say, crevasse, to say one way or another. I hope the design can get fully fleshed out though, then we could have 1 BS that works.
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I'm pretty sure the rocks have too much HP to affect the 4gate issue. I've never noticed it being an issue in tournament games, at least.
The rush distance backdoor-to-backdoor is about 30 seconds, similar to the main-to-main on close air Shattered or Metal.
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That looks like a pretty good macro practice map for bronze-silver players tbh. The expansions are obviously nice for Zerg, but I think every Protoss would just double pylon block the bottom of the ramp at the nat against Zerg.
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why dont just remove the backdoor? if you open up the ramp from natural to 3rd its a decent map with blistering sands flair^^
i always liked the map, despite being zerg and dying to uncounted 4gates back then. (i also liked desert oasis :D)
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aka the non-zergs nightmare
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On March 06 2012 03:56 Laids wrote: That looks like a pretty good macro practice map for bronze-silver players tbh. The expansions are obviously nice for Zerg, but I think every Protoss would just double pylon block the bottom of the ramp at the nat against Zerg. You mean the ramp from the main to natural? It takes 3 pylons just like a regular ramp. A supply depot could be added if it's a big problem. I never put depots on my maps, but not for any specific reason.
On March 06 2012 04:04 Zeon0 wrote: why dont just remove the backdoor? if you open up the ramp from natural to 3rd its a decent map with blistering sands flair^^
i always liked the map, despite being zerg and dying to uncounted 4gates back then. (i also liked desert oasis :D) That would of course destroy the entire identity of the map, and I wouldn't have made a remake other than to make a workable backdoor.
The rush distance would be too long without a backdoor, as well.
On March 06 2012 04:08 Aunvilgod wrote: aka the non-zergs nightmare You mean without a backdoor?
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Backdoors are generally accepted to not be a viable concept in competative games. While you have fixed the issue of the exploit in Blistering sands (that the attacking arc was shorter than the defending arc), it is still not a concept that you want to put in a map. This is because you don't have any "guaranteed bases", which is what you want in sc2. You want at least 2 guaranteed bases, your natural and your main. Backdoors effectively make your main less guaranteed. This is unacceptable as the meta evolves to more and more bases, etc etc.
You've done a fairly good job of maintaining the identity of the map, but I feel that the foreword 4 bases will never really see any play because of the proximity of bases- except of course by terrans and PF.
I think that this is a pretty cool remake, but will never be competitive. Looking foreword to your new work.
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I disagree about backdoor bases. I think they can be fine. They worked in BW if done correctly and have worked fine on Crossfire in SC2 (which is a poor map for other reasons.) I've tried to fix the major reasons they don't work on Blistering Sands, and it's possible it's still broken, but the idea that backdoor bases can never work seems very unsupported.
Note that the forward bases aren't actually that close together. They take 34 seconds for a worker to move between them. This is 4 seconds further than it takes to move between the two golds on Shattered Temple, and 18 seconds longer than the distance between two close forward bases on Shakuras Plateau. I don't think proximity is an issue at all.
Edit: I'd like to add, I'm totally fine with this map never being competitive, and I want to really show the spirit of the original even if it means it is less playable, if that's the case. This is probably the way a lot of remakes are.
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I've always wanted to experiment with backdoors but didn't have a good reference map to draw ideas and concepts from. This looks playable, so if I do make a map with backdoors I will certainly look to this if I get stuck.
I am interested in the expansion layout for this map. I think it will work great, players will not always be stuck on two bases like in the original. Holding four bases is actually possible on this map, and I actually think that the circular expansion layout works really great with the backdoor idea.
The most controversial part of this map would be the expansions by the backdoors I think, specifically their distance between one another.
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I think it's easier to make backdoors work if the back door is further from the enemy than the front door, like on Crossfire. However, rush distance is most important in the earlier game so putting rocks on the entrance which is actually closer makes a lot of sense. I think both are viable but you could split maps with backdoors into these categories. It's also important to look at reasons one player or the other would or wouldn't want to break them open. It could make the base more vulnerable, but also lead to an expansion, for instance. Destination is a good example of this.
As I said above, it seems more reasonable when you compare the bases to bases on other maps. The distance is longer than it looks because the map is actually larger than it looks.
I think my biggest concern would be openness is different areas and how that affects balance. It's a simple thing to adjust though, once shown through a good number of games, if people play on it.
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i think there are too many chokes that could be removed for good and taking 4 bases is ridiculously easy.
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Very interesting,
i dont like to judge a map before i see many games played on it, but this still looks promising
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Yeah, I'd love to get some games played on it to really see how it plays out. I think I've developed it as much as I can without any games.
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On March 06 2012 09:15 Gfire wrote: Yeah, I'd love to get some games played on it to really see how it plays out. I think I've developed it as much as I can without any games.
I will try to get my friends to play some on it, and we'll post reps here for you to showcase ^^
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Thanks, AGIANTSMURF, I really appreciate that.
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I think that the back rocks should be removed, and the map maybe stretched out. I'm pretty sure the main reason for taking this map out was because of the rush distances, and a little stretching out would be nice.
The 3rd and 4th look really easy for T to take, and be able to defend because they are all kind of connected together. It also looks hard for any matchup vs P because the whole middle has chokes, and looks really easy for army cuts.
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The map has been stretched a lot from the original. It's made from scratch at a larger size, and the rush distance is extremely long before the rocks are taken down. In general it seems like your comments are based on you looking at the map and thinking it is smaller than it is. The "chokepoints" around the middle are actually quite huge, something like the center of Shakuras Plateau I'd say. I'd welcome you to open it up in-game to get a feel for the sizing of it.
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Nice rework, I like the way you fixed a lot of the areas. Even the backdoor is cool for expanding now.
Unfortunately the backdoor is still messed up because it makes the attack distance shorter than it would be nat-nat or main-main. Backdoors can work, but they can't really make aggression easier, otherwise you get a lot of imbalanced situations in ZvT especially. I don't know exactly how to fix it, but it needs reworking (or maybe just removing entirely).
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You think so? Hmmm... I was thinking that it made more sense for the ramp not blocked by rocks to be the one further away since the early game is when the rush distance requirements are most important. I'm pretty stubborn though. It seems like there comes a point with every one of my maps where I realize I'm wrong and have been resenting the truth the whole time even though everyone's been trying to tell me.
I'm actually stupidly stubborn...
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This reminds me of Daybreak with a back door.
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you might want to use a completely new name for this map. I think the words "blistering sands" in any context will make people a lot less willing to try it, especially in tournaments.
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Nice! This looks like it fixes a lot of the problems that the original Blistering Sands had... I still don't know if I like the whole back-door rocks into the main concept, but that's obviously a staple of the original map that shouldn't be changed. At least you are doing everything you can to make it close to balanced, despite having the back-door.
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I still want replays of people holding off 4Gate/5Gate, Roach/Ling all-ins and maybe 1-1-1
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Looks a lot better than the original, I never understood why they didn't put a ramp at the natural on the first one. Well done!
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That's quite cool but i was wondering if the main/natural rocks aren't a problem for zerg players (because fast expanding is impossible because you have to destroy the rocks between the main and natural). Have no problems for the backdoor. It's quite funny to watch and play.
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@Erik.TheRed: Well, I don't really think it would be fair of me, since I'm trying to honor the original map in a way. If I changed the name or removed the reference to the original, I'm basically plagiarizing, and that's not really the point here. For a remake like this, to me making it true to the original is more important than making it fit for tournament play.
@Clysmic: Thank you very much. Exactly, If I remove the rocks that would make the entire project pointless. <3
@Kukaracha: Yes, I agree. I'd love to have some highish level players test some of that stuff out.
@RaLakedaimon: Yeah, I'm glad I thought of that, because I had a few versions without the ramp in the early stages of development. It will increase the defender's advantage on both fronts, and with the shorter distance between, the problems from the original will not carry over.
@FFW_Rude: You don't have to destroy those rocks. The ramp has enough room to get down on the side of the rock with about the same width as a normal map. The rocks are just there so that later on you can open it up more so you can move your army through a little easier to defend the backdoor and your natural or third.
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Scouting distance is redic long, but ones rocks are destroyed the attack distance is short. Only thing that backdoor thing with rocks is making scouting much harder. Currently sc2 does not have a problem that scouting would be to easy.
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I played on it, and i hate to tell you that in its current state, this map is broken.
Walling off (For protoss at least) is either really annoying or outright impossible compared to conventional map.
Will update with screens later to show you what i mean
UPDATE:
http://imgur.com/a/3MFxj
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Pretty good remake and altogether looks like a solid map. The only thing I think you should change is the little alcove beside the ramp going into your natural below;
If a marine gets in that corner and the bunker finishes it's pretty much game as the Terran can just throw down another bunker on the high ground that can reach a hatchery. It can be done on both sides of the ramp but it's not as good on the other side.
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I'll move the rocks to the other side of the ramp so it's a bit more easily walled off there. Not sure why I had it this way in the first place.
I'm updating it to fix any walloff troubles.
Edit: And the above bunker issue, it is pretty common on a lot of maps and I wouldn't say it's up to me to say it's broken. But I think it's a little harder to do with the new ramp setup.
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This looks awesome. I didn't think Blistering Sands could ever be remade to be good, but this looks great to me.
You should call it Neo Blistering Sands though
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I think this is done quite well, but I really don't think the backdoor is a good idea.
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Yay a map that doesn't use a protoss tileset. Looks nice but the 3rd looks way too easy to take for T and Z. and the watch towers would be more balanced if the entrances were angled the opposite way. Maybe the backdoor could lead to the natural? A main backdoor is too much of a pain to deal with.
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On March 07 2012 05:52 Gfire wrote: @FFW_Rude: You don't have to destroy those rocks. The ramp has enough room to get down on the side of the rock with about the same width as a normal map. The rocks are just there so that later on you can open it up more so you can move your army through a little easier to defend the backdoor and your natural or third.
You mean like in Crevasse ?
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On March 07 2012 12:13 Gfire wrote: I'll move the rocks to the other side of the ramp so it's a bit more easily walled off there. Not sure why I had it this way in the first place.
I'm updating it to fix any walloff troubles.
Edit: And the above bunker issue, it is pretty common on a lot of maps and I wouldn't say it's up to me to say it's broken. But I think it's a little harder to do with the new ramp setup.
You could just add some doodads in each of the little alcoves on both sides of the ramps so these types of bunker rushes wouldn't be possible. You wouldn't have to change anything else. It's just really dumb that if a Terran gets into a position like this there's pretty much nothing you can do. Since this is a 2p map, it is much, much more likely that double 11 barracks bunker rushes will occur.
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@FFW_Rude: Yes, it's similar to that I believe.
@Exigaet: It's true, I could, but I don't want to invalidate a strategy that I'm not qualified to say is broken, just because some people have trouble with it. It exists in lots of maps and is utilized in tournaments like the GSL from time to time, and no one higher up has taken any action to fix it. Having said that, I'm pretty sure you can't do it on this map anymore anyway since I moved the ramp a little further from the natural minerals.
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Hi.
Love this remake, but sadly i only have a european account, is there any possibility that you can send me the map so i can upload it?
Other than that great work, i actually liked that map when playing the beta, even though i was copper back then
My mail adress is haujoh@gmail.com if you want to send it ^^
EDIT: Changed e-mail adress
EDIT #2: Map up on EU
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Gonna play a few practice games on this tonight I think... Blistering Sands is one of the early maps I miss the most (almost as much as Scrap Station)
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Yeah, Scrap Station had some sick features and would be a nice map to remake as well. I might try that at some point.
This map is totally open for other people to edit. I don't consider it my own and it's uploaded as open on Bnet. So anyone is free to upload it on another server, but it would be best not to re-upload if it's already up on a server unless it's been altered in some way (which anyone is free to do as far as I'm concerned.)
Here's a link for the map download: http://www.filedropper.com/blistering
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