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Status Servers: WOL-NA Sorry been busy/lazy. Pretty old version. New version to be released SoonTM. Ranked Play: Need to make sure it works with latest patch. (read below for details on how to get it working) This post: as of 12 May 2013
Maps Akilon Flats Antiga Shipyard Cloud Kingdom LE DF Atlas Newkirk DIstrict <more to come! still trying to determine the best maps to include. I personally like maps where the naturals are not ramped. Akilon Flats seems to work well, though.>
SC2Pro Mod Many of you have probably heard of SC2 mods like Starbow, SC2BW, and OneGoal, and if you have not, I highly encourage you to try them all out. They are all awesome! SC2Pro is my take on how SC2 can be improved, but I am taking a minimalistic approach to the changes I make to the units. It also features a ranking system similar to the one used by iCCup. Instead of focusing on units like Blizzard does to balance/improve the game, I seek to improve gameplay by tweaking economy, macro mechanics, as well as the user interface. I think that SC2 is too unit focused (mainly because most games are max versus max battles), but that rips us away from many other aspects of the game. While I do make some unit changes, they are for design decisions that affect all 3 races. I will get to that in more detail in a bit, but most of the units have been left untouched in how they work, so there is little to adapt to on that level. However, the economy changes vastly expand the possibilities in the game, so gameplay can (should) feel different, even though the units are mostly the same. Of course, you can still play it like vanilla SC2, but timings, builds, and strategies may not be as viable or not, anymore. The most important features of this mod are: 1. Increasing the importance of expanding by changing the economy. 2. Defender's advantage (33% high ground miss chance -- I may increase this) 3. Balancing micro and macro (i.e. so maxing out can be considered somewhat "impressive") Floating minerals is more okay in this mod, since you probably have more stuff to do.
Some of you may remember the former SC2 Pro Mod thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=117987 Sad to say, it was just an April fools joke. >_< While many of the changes from the joke are good, I wanted to leave SC2 as much as SC2 as possible. You should check out the website for a good laugh, though.
Note: You will have to play differently. Terran can (should?) be more aggressive. Zerg can (should?) not be as greedy and not just play reactively. Protoss is probably somewhere in between. Of course, all of this may completely change as people get better, but, while the feel is still similar, there are many aspects of the normal SC2 gameplay that may be even more important in SC2Pro. Furthermore, players who are "better" at SC2 may lose to "lesser" players in this. This will not necessarily mean that the game is "imbalanced". I did say that the changes are small, but the effects are considerable.
User Interface I have always believed that there was a certain disconnect between the player and the units s/he controls due to the interface in SC2. Units in SC2 do not have presence like they did in Brood War. While this is mainly due to units dying a whole lot quicker in SC2 and the rate at which they can be reproduced, the units are just several times smaller on the screen. This contributes greatly to the feel of the game for both the players and viewers. I have increased the size of all non-building units by 13%. In addition, I have reduced the HP/shield bars by about 40% to make the screen look cleaner. Formation diameter is also increased to 12 (from air 8 and ground 6). It may seem weird at first, but once you get used to it, it should be more pleasant and exciting. While the game is still SC2, please do give it a try or two!
Sound Sound is a huge part of the game, since it provides a great layer of feedback for the players and viewers. Coming from BW, I noticed that many of the sounds in SC2 are either bland or non-unique. While I personally like nearly all of the BW sounds more than the ones in SC2, I have opted to keep most of the SC2 ones. The sounds I have added/changed are sounds that make explosions/deaths/etc more unique for each type of unit. While sound changes have been made for all 3 races, this mostly applies to Terran. For example, the banshee death sound is no longer a generic Terran explosion; it is now like when a BW Wraith dies. These sort of things allow players to immediately identify which unit has died in battle, etc. While small, I still think it important to the playability of the game.
Economy http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17788834
Macro - Zerg Queen inject gives 3 larvae instead of 4. - MULE gives 25 per trip instead of 30. Due to the longer time to mine, this information does not mean much itself, but basically one MULE will give 200 minerals during its life (nearly every time). It used to be 240 or 270 depending on patch distance. - Warpgate research also reduces normal Gateway production time by 10 seconds. Warpgate cooldown is 15 seconds more than that. Warpgate will continue to cooldown 2x as slowly in Gateway mode but not during transformation. Warp-in time increased to 7 from 5. I will be looking at this thoroughly.
Miscellaneous (but still important) changes - DPS (via attack period) for most units has been reduced from what it is on Faster to what it is on Fast... about 15%. This is to further balance the macro and micro aspect of the game. I will look at this very carefully on unit by unit basis. Particular units are nerfed more than others by this (i.e siege tank). - All (hopefully) splash damage radius has been increased by 13% to compensate for unit size increase. I will be looking at this very closely. - Some watchtowers removed on certain maps. Scout more and have more map presence throughout the whole game! - Gave some specific explosion/death sounds to some units (mostly Terran) - Added casting time for many unit spellcasters. I will pay very close attention to this. Still working out the kinks.
Race-specific changes not mentioned above The vast majority of these changes are to allow Protoss units to be less forcefield dependent. Furthermore, I changed Terran to allow for more early aggression. Zerg must make units, not just reactively. In addition, due to the tweaked economy, other cost changes were made. Finally, the reduction of supply cost for some units are to increase macro mechanics skill cap (i.e. the need to macro all game, unlike the current SC2 situation where it is so easy to max out and remax)
Protoss - New research at Cybernetics Core: Shadow Essence. This increases Stalker shields by 20 and gives them +1 attack range (to 7). Costs 150/150 and 140 seconds. - Stalker Blink now reduces Stalker shields by half each time. I may increase the shields reduced. - Stalker now deals 12 (up from 10) damage (still +4 to armoured). I may revert this. - Zealot shields increased to 160 from 150. I may revert this. - Charge is now default not autocasted. Cooldown increased to 20. Able to attack move with it. Charging Zealots now take 20% more damage. The active Charge speedboost is reduced. Charge range increased to 6 from 4. - Sentry forcefield duration is now 7 seconds, down from 15. I am considering making it have HP, but I just want to try this out first; most players will not have enough time to target and kill a 7 second forcefield, anyway. I am considering lowering it to 5 seconds, too. Forcefield will require exact timing, otherwise it is thoroughly wasted. - Sentry Guardian Shield reduces 1 ranged damage instead of 2. I do not want to phase out the Sentry fully, so I will pay attention to the use of the Sentry. - Immortal shields reduced to 60. Damage reduced to 40. Cost reduced to 200/100. - Immortal is now 3 supply. - Colossus is now 4 supply. Speed reduced to 1.65 from 2.25. Cost reduced to 250/150. Shield/HP decreased to 125/125. ***this will change as I redesign the colossus*** - To be done: Change colossus to shoot a projectile similar to BW Reaver. - Assimilator cost is now 100, up from 75. - Forge upgrade costs reverted to before the 1.4.2 patch.
Terran - Marauder HP reduced to 100 from 125. - Concussive shell removed from the game. - All barracks units are 1 supply. - Siege tank is now 2 supply (from 3) and 100 gas (from 125). - Sieged tank attack is now "dodgeable"; it is a projectile that has a very slight delay between shot and hit. - Thor is now 4 supply (from 6). Cost reduced from 300/200 to 300/150. - Thor's 250mm cannon energy requirement reduced to 125 from 150. (probable changes to come for this; I am aware of the HotS changes) - Dropship replaces Medivac in the Starport. Same cost. Slower acceleration, faster max speed. - Medic added to the Barracks (hotkey E). Starts with 50 energy. Costs 50/25 and 28 seconds. Requires attached Tech Lab. No upgrades for Medic right now. - Medic and Dropship can "merge" to upgrade into a Medivac. This upgrade takes 10 seconds. Medics and Medivacs heal at the same rate. - Caduceus Reactor upgrade moved from Starport Tech Lab to Barracks Tech Lab. It does the same thing for Medics and Medivacs (+25 starting energy). This replaces the slot of the removed Concussive Shell. - Refinery cost is now 100, up from 75. - Missile Turret cost reduced to 75 from 100. Damage reduced to 10 from 12. HP reduced from 250 to 225.
Zerg - Roach and Hydralisks are now 1 supply (from 2). - Roach HP reduced to 120 from 145. - Glial Reconstruction upgrade no longer requires Lair. - Ultralisks are now 4 supply (from 6). Mineral cost reduced to 250. (I may revert the cost reduction) - Broodlord is now 4 supply. - To be done: mutalisk mutates into corruptor and broodlord. - Extractor cost is now 50 from 25. - Hatchery HP reduced to 1250 from 1500. Lair HP reduced to 1800 from 2000. - Hydralisk movement speed increased to 2.75 from 2.25. Creep speed bonus increased to 0.45 from 0. Creep speed multiplier reduced to 1 from 1.5. - Muscular Augments upgrade added. Upgradeable at the Hydralisk Den for 150/150 and 100 seconds. Requires Hive. It increases base Hydralisk speed by 0.75. Hotkey is A. - Hive takes 120 seconds instead of 100 seconds to morph into.
Gameplay race-specific considerations Protoss - WG should be used lategame or in particular cases. You can also use it to add a production cycle if you have enough time for cooldown in GW mode. I will look at this carefully, as it may be too powerful or underpowered. - Kite with Stalkers. Be careful of when to use Blink. Try and be constantly active with them, as shields regenerate pretty quickly, and Stalkers are still fast. - With Zealots, push C then click on a target unit or location to charge attack move. Auto-cast is still available but must be set. Use it wisely as they take 20% more damage while charging. - Use Warpprism to move the slower Colossus. Once I change the Colossus attack, Warpprism will basically be required. - Be careful of your high templars. Please make sure you consider the casting times of spells! - +1 range Stalkers outrange bunkered marines but not bunkered marauders. - Researching Shadow Essence before WG is often a good idea.
Zerg - You can not just make units when you see your opponent attacking. Do not be so greedy. - Make more macro hatcheries than you normally do! - Use roaches to tank and hydralisks to DPS. Kite with hydralisks. - Use more than 1 tech path at a time (i.e. you can use infestors while you are using mutalisks) - Be careful of your building rallies. - Flank! Use your speed to your advantage and attack multiple places at once! - Maynard your workers to your natural. You will get a lot more out of them. - Infestors have a slight casting time for fungal growth. - Make sure you pay attention to defense, as hatcheries are 1250 HP not 1500.
Terran - Be aggressive (especially against Zerg)! You no longer need to turtle until Medivacs, since you have medics upon Tech Lab. - Other than supply, you do not get a refund on the Medic when you upgrade a Dropship+Medic=Medivac, sorry. - Build more tanks! 100 gas and 2 supply~ - You do not have to go strictly biological or strictly mechanical. Mix it up! - Use up the rest of the Medic's energy before changing it into a Medivac. Medivacs will always start with 62 energy. Medics with 50. - Slow push with tanks and turrets to hold your ground. - Dropships accelerate slower but they move faster than Medivacs do. Keep that in mind before you upgrade. - +1 range Stalkers outrange bunkered marines but not bunkered marauders.
Known bugs - WG cooldown still works in Gateway mode when unpowered. Should be easy fix. - Medic+Medic or Dropship+Dropship gives 2 duplicate error messages if you try and upgrade to Medivac. I know why, but I am still thinking of a workaround in my trigger. - Sieged tank shots sometimes are harder to see on the largest of buildings. This is due to the way the projectile was added. I will try and fix this. If I can not figure out a way and it becomes detrimental to players (and no one is actually microing against it), I will revert the sieged tank to no projectile. - Still working on giving the Colossus a projectile (similar in nature to how the reaver works). - Still working on broodlord shooting a generic projectile with the target spawning broodlings upon death. - Still considering mutalisks morphing into corruptors and broodlords. - Highly considering added Zerg Scourge. - Fixing some units' casting time. - If there are units in a Dropship, and the player merges a Medic and that Dropship, the units inside will be lost forever. I am pretty certain I can make a workaround to this, so please be patient.
System requirements Because of the possibility of more units in the game, games will naturally stress your computer more. I think a good guideline is that how ever your computer runs in 2v2 midgame is how your computer will be in lategame SC2Pro. I apologise to those who get lag, but sadly I can do nothing about it.
Ranked play SC2ReplayStats (created by breath) has partnered with me to provide a ranking system for SC2Pro. More details on this coming very soon, but basically you will have an external program open while playing and the results of your match will be sent to a ranking database. Please check out the website for additional tools like a unique replay storing system with unique stats! It features online replay storage, league/division tracking, and is completely free! It is very easy, so sign up here!. Please do check out the TL SC2ReplayStats thread. RANKED PLAY IS NOW AVAILABLE. HOW TO: 1. Go to http://sc2replaystats.com, register, and download either the *standalone* program or the SC2Gears plugin. 2. Click on Settings on the website. 3. Open the program you just downloaded / open SC2Gears and activate the plugin. 4. On the first time use, you need to copy the hashkey from the Settings website into where the program asks for it. 5. Click the button (should turn from red to green). Leave the program/SC2Gears on as you play. 6. Go to Arcade, search "SC2Pro", and play any of the maps that are labelled Ranked with [R]. Please make sure you "Create" not join. (the loading screen contains old information, apologies) 7. Once done playing, go back to the website to view your statistics!
Heart of the Swarm I understand that the vast majority of you are probably playing the HotS beta, as it is soon to be fully released. While HotS has new units, the units that were added or changed were "necessary" because there are/were so many holes to fill coming from WoL. I plan on releasing a HotS version soon after the game is actually released, but I do believe that the expansion may not necessarily need all of the changes that vanilla HotS has, because it will be building on different structure. Regardless, I will try my hardest to accommodate as many good units and changes that are in the HotS expansion.
Balance I will take careful consideration before making huge unit-specific balance changes, as I want the players to be the ones being victorious over one another, not the units. If you are outplayed, then you are outplayed. Vice versa. A big part of this project is to allow both players to battle each other directly, reducing the amount of layers between the player. I understand that changes will more than likely have to be made, but this is just my philosophy. My balancing philosophy is NOT to make things easier for the "losing" race by making units better, but rather that I can try to increase the skill potential for the race. Understanding that I still want to keep this very much SC2, I will put every effort to keeping it that way.
How to play Go to Arcade and search for "SC2Pro" Maps labelled with [R] are Ranked. All others are unranked. ***If you want to be ranked, you must also have the SC2ReplayStats program/plugin up and running throughout your games*** (loading screen contains old/incorrect information, apologies. I will fix this soon)
More information - Ranked play against a computer will not count. - Only 1v1 is supported - Only maps published by "purakushi" will contribute to your rank.
Contact SC2ProMod@gmail.com Chat channel "SC2Pro" for players. Please do send me replays! especially if you think something is "imba". Of course, great games are welcome, too.
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Modified/improved from Fewer Resources per Base (FRB) thread:
Resource per Base Counts:
9 mineral fields in main base, 7 in natural base, 8 in all other bases, 4 per trip, 1500 total each 1 gas geyser, 6 per trip, 5000 total each
(The 9-7-8 number differentiation of mineral patches per base is to allow one-base play while still obligating the need to expand past 2 bases. It rounds out the early, mid, and late game segments -- not too slow, not too explosive.)
Gameplay Modifications:
Mineral: 4 minerals per trip (from 5) Rich Mineral: 6 minerals per trip (from 7) Gas: 5000 gas per geyser (from 2500) Gas: 6 per trip (from 4) MULE: 24 minerals per trip (from 30) Inject Larva: 3 larva per cast (from 4) Assimilator: 100 minerals cost (from 75) Refinery: 100 minerals cost (from 75) Extractor: 50 minerals cost (from 25)
The MULE and Inject modifications are *not* balance changes. They are to normalize the production capabilities of each race to the new economy. Protoss does not need to be changed other than the Assimilator cost.
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Interesting to see yet another mod of this style. I think I'll give it a try before judging it.
But I can't, since it's not uploaded to EU yet.
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Gogo purakushi!
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On February 15 2013 05:16 Mongoose wrote: Interesting to see yet another mod of this style. I think I'll give it a try before judging it.
But I can't, since it's not uploaded to EU yet. Why not just switch region?
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Oh this should be good.
Pura has seen/played plenty of Starbow, OneGoal, and SC2BW matches.
Nice work ^^.
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Err mah gawsh. You ppl really want me to fail before I even get to college. So many decent mods, so little time. Will be trying this out... along with the others. At this point there needs to be a limit on how many *official* mods we be having >:S I really wish this is the last...
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Mods help test the rhetoric that people constantly make about how to fix SC2.
The more mods we have, the more experiments and studies we have to see what works, what doesn't.
Personally I'm always extremely interested on the many different approaches you could take to making a healthy defenders advantage.
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I think it's pretty obvious that the people who play Starbow also play OneGoal, and will also play this. I think we should gather everyone in a single chat, or maybe a clan or something. If we don't, we run the danger of separating an already small community.
Chat channel: Melee Mods, perhaps? It can be the hub for all these projects, from sc2bw to FRB to WC4, or whatever may come up.
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I honestly didn't like the 1 supply Roach(maybe there will be too many roaches) and the projectile Colossus(I think the One goal approach is better)
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On February 15 2013 23:06 lunkfumble wrote: I honestly didn't like the 1 supply Roach(maybe there will be too many roaches) and the projectile Colossus(I think the One goal approach is better)
I understand your concern over the 1 supply Roach; however, players can not just mass Roaches nearly as soundly as they can in SC2. The reason it was such an issue in vanilla SC2 and had to be changed is because the explosive economy allows for it as well as how strong Roaches are in SC2. The amount of Roaches you can have at any time in SC2Pro will be significantly less than the amount you can have in SC2. Furthermore, by the time you have a enough resources to actually mass Roaches to this extent, this composition will just outright die to what Terran and Protoss should have. Finally, as the mod promotes more aggression, there should be less "massing up", as there will be more engagements and "trades". Of course, players can still choose to mass up armies, but the playstyle is pretty different because each race is given more options for aggression throughout each time segment of the game. Also, Hydralisks got a significant boost in utility with an increased base speed as well as the addition of the Muscular Augments upgrade.
As for the Colossus, I want to make it less of an a-move unit and more microable. My philosophy is that this involves making it have a projectile as well as making the unit slow and relatively weak. I respect OneGoal's Colossus decision, but I feel it is still very much the same unit that does not nearly have as much potential as a unit with a projectile. This potential I mention involves both risk and reward that scales greatly with skill. As I have not actually implemented what I want from the Colossus, I am definitely willing to reevaluate, though.
As I am trying to keep it as close to normal SC2 as possible, I am still trying to fill the biggest holes in gameplay. These include the Colossus.
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Just an observation:
I found it interesting how SC2BW was simply trying to be as true to BroodWar as possible StarBow is "taking the best from BroodWar and SC2. Being the succesor to BW that SC2 should have been." OneGoal is "designing the units by how they FEEL and making it fun first, then balancing."
SC2Pro appears to be deriving the best from StarBow and OneGoal, and trying to make something even superior.
It's taking the second derivative from BroodWar :O
+ Show Spoiler + I'm sorry. I'm in AP Calc right now... StarBow & OneGoal would be the first deriv.
I'm really interested especially in the changes to warp gate, stalker, and queen.
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Really like the Mod, it is sad ans pathetic though that so many community driven projects can be such a superior game to the SC2 we now have which is driven by a huge ass company ... Keep it up =) Maby they´ll feature changes from one of the mods in LotV will play it every now and again for sure!
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When will people realize that making warp gates slower than gateways doesn't do anything meaningful? People just use warp gate and make another gateway for production. There's no meaningful decision; do I get the ability to warp in any gateway unit I can afford, anywhere in pylon power nearly instantaneously, or do I save 150 minerals on building another warpgate?
If you delay warpgate by making it require twilight council, or just make it more expensive/take longer to research, then you might see people use gateways as opposed to warpgate. Then you get interesting choices: do I invest in a twilight council so I can get warpgate? Do I spend this increased cost to get out warpgate, knowing I won't get anything out of it for a long time and in the meantime I can't use those resources? Slower production is just far too easily mitigated to offer a reasonable alternative to warpgates.
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On February 20 2013 06:40 Mullet_Ben wrote: When will people realize that making warp gates slower than gateways doesn't do anything meaningful? People just use warp gate and make another gateway for production. There's no meaningful decision; do I get the ability to warp in any gateway unit I can afford, anywhere in pylon power nearly instantaneously, or do I save 150 minerals on building another warpgate?
If you delay warpgate by making it require twilight council, or just make it more expensive/take longer to research, then you might see people use gateways as opposed to warpgate. Then you get interesting choices: do I invest in a twilight council so I can get warpgate? Do I spend this increased cost to get out warpgate, knowing I won't get anything out of it for a long time and in the meantime I can't use those resources? Slower production is just far too easily mitigated to offer a reasonable alternative to warpgates. But this isn't true. Pretty much all experienced Starbow players use gates unless they intend to warp in a base or have some for clutch defenses. You can really only afford to overspam production in the late game, preferably when you are winning already.
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@last
There is always the possibility that people will just make warp gates and use them by default regardless... but at least now making a bunch of warp gates cuts away from raw army production. Sure you could have a set where you need them instantly, but you wont have another set for a while. Despite WarpGate being @ cyber tech, the fact that WGs have a longer cooldown alone means there is SOME drawback to having only warp gates.
(Would I rather spend 150 on another warp gate to sporadically have A zealot where I need it, or would I rather have an extra zealot in a few seconds... It's a choice. ^^
EDIT: Sniped by decem -_-
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One of the biggest reasons for having Gateways produce faster than Warpgates is PvP. While I love micro wars and aggression, the main reason PvP games in SC2 are based very much on one base play is because it can end so quickly, as there is very little to no defender's advantage. Combine this with the fact of how players can just hide a pylon, if you do not scout it, you just die if your build is wrong. I mentioned in the OP about units in HotS that were solely added to basically band-aid fix issues from WoL. Well, the Mothership Core is a prime example of this, in terms of PvP. I am still deciding how I am going to include it when I port this over to a HotS version. I do not want to leave out "new" units, because "just being new" is a huge draw for players. I want less gambles and more player versus player interactions in the game. A player should always have a chance to comeback.
Sorry, I have been busy the past few days. I am hoping to push out a patch sometime, but I do not know when.. hopefully within a week.
I still need to clean up spellcasters' casting time, tweak the Colossus, and modify (still in consideration whether or not to) Broodlords. Some other things, perhaps. Everything after that will just be fine tuning, I think.
--- I think the hardest thing to "balance from a design perspective" (if that makes sense) going from BW to SC2 are the melee units. The AI is perfect, so melee units are quite powerful. Not necessarily in their damage but their surround. It sort of goes like this:
1. Zerglings still have 35 HP and whatnot. They are extremely quick and have perfect AI. 2. In order for Marines to not just outright die to Zerglings, Blizzard had to buff the heck out of them in terms of DPS and kiting ability coming from BW. 3. Since Zerglings can surround extremely well and Marines have a buff (plus Marauders), Protoss needed a way to stay alive, thus came about forcefields. I remember watching a video of Browder saying how they do not want to change forcefield and that they are *proud* of it. Personally, I feel like they did not know what to do going from #2 to #3, because if they made Gateway units strong enough to combat the other 2 in a straight up fight, the rest of the game would be broken. So, when they thought of forcefields, they were proud of themselves. Of course, just having a new unit (sentry) is nice, too. XD
Similar case for Zealots (and Charge).
(Note: Conceptually, I think forcefields are cool. It is just the absolute dependence on them that I have issues with. It is too much of a "make it or break it" -- outright win or outright lose -- type of spell for such a prevalent unit.)
I do not want to change the actual unit interactions within SC2, so I am taking steps very carefully to make sure that one unit is not too strong in any point of the game while still keeping SC2 what it is.
In SC2, Terran has the issue that they basically have to wait for Medivacs before they can truly move out. Sure, you can have some early aggression and whatnot, but things actually start getting scary with Medivacs. Barracks units are pretty weak without heal (Protoss has forcefields and Zerg has bursts of macro to defend, while Terran is left with an ancient macro mechanic to reinforce). Tanks help, but Zerglings are quick to surround, and Banelings do a quick job of either zoning Marines or just killing them. Basically, Terran needed sustainability earlier in the game, so I added the Medic and Dropship. The case is similar for Protoss. (I love Zerg, so please do not take this in the wrong way. I am not blaming the race for all of this >_<)
I can expand on that later, if anyone wants. Gotta go.
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Added DF Atlas to the map pool. (Old version of the map, though. I am requesting the latest version from the author and will upload it as soon as I get it.)
Apologies, I have been busy for the past few weeks, so there is no actual update to the mod at this time. I will hopefully be releasing a patch before HotS comes out, just to finalise the WoL version of SC2Pro. Once HotS is out, I will get out a HotS version as soon as possible. During the transition, I am going to re-evaluation/test everything, including Protoss, the economy, unit tweaks, supply costs/cap, high ground advantage, casting time, and splash.
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My post from elsewhere Thought it would be good to put it here.
I am torn between changing SC2 units or not for many of the same reasons you mention. I think one of the biggest reasons I am changing units around is because of Protoss. If I do revert the unit changes from vanilla SC2, I will probably leave in the Stalker upgrade, reduced forcefield duration, and medics/dropships. One other unit I have not added yet is the Scourge.
I want to note, however, the "small changes in balance" you mention... I did not make those changes to address balance, I actually made them for design/gameplay decisions. I will try and explain them better in the SC2Pro thread once I adapt the mod to HotS and work some other things out. While I think the economy changes will improve SC2 just by themselves, all of the changes work in synergy with each other and should come as a package.
All of those changes are to promote more aggression and dynamic. I really want to change the colossus, too >_> Other than those, even if the other units themselves may seem "boring", I do not want the mod to be unit-changes focused, but rather a mod that better allows players to express themselves. Gameplay should make the game interesting, not the units. IMHO, Blizzard is too focused on units, but if the gameplay is uninteresting, then no matter how cool the units are, the game will just get stale. Whether or not you think BW has more interesting units or not, the game did/does so well and lasted for so long because the gameplay is focused on the players' control, decisions, and interactions, not the units themselves. HotS will only keep people's interest for so long before they are bored of the units (though, it has bandaid alleviated some passivity issues)
I will think hard about where I want SC2Pro to go. OneGoal already has many unit changes, StarBow is a completely different game (BW+SC2), and SC2BW is BW. Perhaps SC2Pro will just have general (but important) changes that affect overall gameplay. I do know that OneGoal is looking to also address the SC2 economy and other things similar to those in SC2Pro, but personally I think those should come first before any unit changes, so I made SC2Pro. Sigh, the colossus...
=== Please note if you do play the SC2Pro maps, I still need to fix and republish them. There are some glitches that popped up going into the latest patch.
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I tried this today to see whether there were any practical differences to SC2 since you claim maynarding helps more in SC2Pro.
Sure, since the second worker queues a short amount of time there is a slight boost from maynarding. I don't know whether I'd consider it enough of a difference from SC2 though.
And personally I need to have one other condition met: There must be a greater and wider variation within 1base saturation levels as well. This is a problem you've slightly exacerbated with SC2Pro, since 2workers/patch really is 100% mining rate from that base.
I guess that's why I'm an SC2BW:er =)
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On May 13 2013 10:03 LaLuSh wrote: I tried this today to see whether there were any practical differences to SC2 since you claim maynarding helps more in SC2Pro.
Sure, since the second worker queues a short amount of time there is a slight boost from maynarding. I don't know whether I'd consider it enough of a difference from SC2 though.
And personally I need to have one other condition met: There must be a greater and wider variation within 1base saturation levels as well. This is a problem you've slightly exacerbated with SC2Pro, since 2workers/patch really is 100% mining rate from that base.
I guess that's why I'm an SC2BW:er =)
Thanks for the feedback.
Yeah, I know what you mean. Actually, the public version I have of SC2Pro is quite an old version of what I have. I have been busy/lazy lately, so I have not completed and released the version I am working on. Hence the inactive thread ;;
Ideally, I would like to have what you mention, but I do not believe it possible without changing the mining AI (i.e. SC2BW). Honestly, though, while it works great for BW, I do not think it would bring much to SC2 without changing many other things about the game. And, I do not believe it to be *that* important in reality.
Once life gets a little less hectic, I am going to figure out exactly where I want SC2Pro to go. I do not want it to "just" be another One Goal, even though I think that mod is great in its own respect. On one hand, I want to keep it as vanilla SC2 as possible but address some issues that I feel would benefit the gameplay the most. One the other hand, there are so many things I wish were changed about SC2, whether to be closer to BW or otherwise. Of course, some BW things do not belong in SC2, but there are definitely some that would improve the game.
Apologies for the lack of details. I will get to figuring all of this out eventually. >_<
(I may just go ahead and publish the version that I have right now within the next few days, though.)
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i've been thinking about this lol... sooo many times watching pro games and tournaments where nothing happens til 15min when 2 200maxed armies clash and the other one looses.
And you even made the units a little bit bigger like i thought of. lol. Get out of my head my good sir :D..
Now to the mod.. where is it uploaded? is it updated ??
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On June 26 2013 05:47 Izerman wrote: i've been thinking about this lol... sooo many times watching pro games and tournaments where nothing happens til 15min when 2 200maxed armies clash and the other one looses.
And you even made the units a little bit bigger like i thought of. lol. Get out of my head my good sir :D..
Now to the mod.. where is it uploaded? is it updated ??
Thanks for the comment.
Unfortunately, I have not updated this in quite some time. Life has taken me away from such endeavours. The only version publicly available is published on NA in the Arcade. It is far from what I have in testing phase and even farther from what I have in mind ultimately, but if you do want to try that out, just search for "SC2Pro" in the Arcade.
It is more of a proof of concept to myself, as I honestly do not think it will become popular or anything like that. Maybe once I finish moving and get acquainted with my job in the coming month, I can put some time into this!
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need any help? im gonna be home for a good 5-6months with 1hours of workout and then a looot of free time :D
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It is more of a proof of concept to myself, as I honestly do not think it will become popular or anything like that. Maybe once I finish moving and get acquainted with my job in the coming month, I can put some time into this!
This is something about melee mods that I'm not 100% sold on. Look at LaLush's thread:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/search.php?q=starcraft II brood war&t=t&f=-1&u=&gb=date&d=
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=390265
822 replies, 126735 views for a 42 page thread, and lots of praise for MaverCK's work.
There were also posts like these:
On December 27 2012 23:01 EonuS wrote: mavericK, you should try and make a mod like this for starcraft2 (if you will ever have the time that is) just to find out whether the game becomes much better or not. By that I mean all the fundamentals you changed with the mod (worker ai, clumping) to transfer over to sc2 design to really see if the game becomes more fun or not; thanks for putting the effort for the mod nonetheless, it's amazing
If you could build this thing and give it a good presentation, you could do more than just prove to yourself things that Brood War players already know...
- but of course, you might just end up with 4 or 5 platinum players and have a massive patch every week =/ hopefully that won't happen
I'm willing to help out with the project, I have too much free time as it is.
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Well i noticed my post didnt contain anything but me bashing you for stealing my ideas :D it was supposed to praise you for your work..
This is a very good change, and it's needed since sc2 has become boring again..
Like i said before, if you want help with anything just ask :D //
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