Description: Wintermute is a reasonably aggressive map featuring a lot of counterattack paths. The base density is pretty high, but the bases each have their own weaknesses. One possible third is at the bottom of a ramp, and the other has a cliff above it. The area connected to the natural is a dead-end which can serve for proxies, drops, reapers, or just to harass the base next to it. There are rocks in the middle of the map which can be destroyed to open up more attack paths.
The thing that worries me the most currently with the map is that the natural is fairly vulnerable to harassment from the third base area, especially with siege tanks, but hopefully players will be able to control the area at the front of the natural to ward off that type of attack. Otherwise I'm pretty happy about how the map turned out especially aesthetics-wise. The map looks a lot like what I can see outside my window right now.
10 Feb 2017: Updated natural and below-ramp third to make the natural more defendable. Natural gas no longer attackable from range 6. Mineral line at third moved to prevent siege tanks from driving behind it. Slightly more airspace between third and main for air units to take shelter--previously had to be very precise to stay out of range 6. Middle of the map updated to make it more open and dynamic. Area with the trees removed, and rock-blocked central path added. Size of ice at 6 and 12 o'clock reduced to allow for a bit more space. + Show Spoiler [Overview] +
that little area behind the 3/9 bases is pretty interesting.
Map is a bit hard to read (especially if you look at the overhead view, but still somewhat on the angled) because of how the texturing is on ramps and such. I think it makes it too hard to judge the map correctly, although it seems like an interesting layout from what I can tell.
I would go into more depth why I believe the map could use some changes but until you open it up a bit it's going to be completely broken so there really isn't a point to look at all the smaller imbalances.
On February 05 2017 16:24 SidianTheBard wrote: I'm just going to say...
Holy chokes batman.
Where do you expect a zerg to engage?.....ever?
I would go into more depth why I believe the map could use some changes but until you open it up a bit it's going to be completely broken so there really isn't a point to look at all the smaller imbalances.
I'm kinda surprised by this response. I was definitely aware that this map was on the chokier side of things, but I thought it was within the acceptable range. With all the very long ramps, it isn't much chokier than Echo.
Sorry, I was a bit drunk last night so it came off a little more rude then I normally would be! Butttt....
But choices of thirds are just very awkward once you place the CC down. You take the one with the big ramp, but your CC will be so close to the ramp which makes it rather weird to defend.because the ramp is huge but then there are rocks and super tight chokes right above it. You take the forward third and you have to funnel down a 2x wide ramp and then up a huuuge ramp to defend any attacks.
The entire map is littered with a ton of 2x wide ramps. Those are fine for early game & smaller engagements but what about middle & end game.
There are also a ton of great drop spots / harass spots especially for terran. They can drop on low/high ground behind your minerals.
edit:
I wonder if you just took out the entire middle ground connector area in the middle and just had the middle completely wide open might make it better. Should see how that looks!
On February 06 2017 00:23 SidianTheBard wrote: Sorry, I was a bit drunk last night so it came off a little more rude then I normally would be! Butttt....
But choices of thirds are just very awkward once you place the CC down. You take the one with the big ramp, but your CC will be so close to the ramp which makes it rather weird to defend.because the ramp is huge but then there are rocks and super tight chokes right above it. You take the forward third and you have to funnel down a 2x wide ramp and then up a huuuge ramp to defend any attacks.
The entire map is littered with a ton of 2x wide ramps. Those are fine for early game & smaller engagements but what about middle & end game.
There are also a ton of great drop spots / harass spots especially for terran. They can drop on low/high ground behind your minerals.
edit:
I wonder if you just took out the entire middle ground connector area in the middle and just had the middle completely wide open might make it better. Should see how that looks!
Hmm yeah I get your point. It isn't only the chokes, but rather how the chokes combine with the aggressive options afforded to the opponent that make things bad for zerg.
I'm kinda leery about simply removing the middle connector since it also allows for the opponent to easily pivot and attack the low ground base, but with some changes to the middle it might be fine.
Updated natural and below-ramp third to make the natural more defendable. Natural gas no longer attackable from range 6. Mineral line at third moved to prevent siege tanks from driving behind it. Slightly more airspace between third and main for air units to take shelter--previously had to be very precise to stay out of range 6. Middle of the map updated to make it more open and dynamic. Area with the trees removed, and rock-blocked central path added. Size of ice at 6 and 12 o'clock reduced to allow for a bit more space.
edit: Feb 12: Removed an obnoxious cannon rushing spot.
This map is really strange, I am unsure what to think of it immediately.
The middle seems counterproductive. The fastest path is blocked by a pair of rocks, but it's safer to move your army on the high ground later game, while the small, central choke with the rocks would be a better path early game. I think you have the rock placement backward for these paths. At the same time, switching it will decrease the rush distance, and that would be a large problem on this map considering how vulnerable the expansions are already.
The map is generally very open in a lot of areas, but also choked up in other areas. I think Sidian really explained the problem here with the thirds and ramps on this map. Both thirds are very vulnerable. You'll need to do something to make them easier to expand to, like tightening or moving some of the chokes in these areas.
I think the middle only needs to change the rock placement and can keep it's general structure (which I think is pretty cool tbh), but the outer areas of the map need some modification. There are a lot of chokes and several spots where units can attack up or down cliff levels to harass expansions--which are already difficult to expand to imo.
On February 13 2017 13:47 Antares777 wrote: This map is really strange, I am unsure what to think of it immediately.
The middle seems counterproductive. The fastest path is blocked by a pair of rocks, but it's safer to move your army on the high ground later game, while the small, central choke with the rocks would be a better path early game. I think you have the rock placement backward for these paths. At the same time, switching it will decrease the rush distance, and that would be a large problem on this map considering how vulnerable the expansions are already.
The map is generally very open in a lot of areas, but also choked up in other areas. I think Sidian really explained the problem here with the thirds and ramps on this map. Both thirds are very vulnerable. You'll need to do something to make them easier to expand to, like tightening or moving some of the chokes in these areas.
I think the middle only needs to change the rock placement and can keep it's general structure (which I think is pretty cool tbh), but the outer areas of the map need some modification. There are a lot of chokes and several spots where units can attack up or down cliff levels to harass expansions--which are already difficult to expand to imo.
The rocks in the middle are for opening up an extra path in the mid to late game. It's fairly small, but I think it'll be used for run-bys, maneuvering etc. The ramps don't line up either, so you can use it to get onto the higher ground fairly easily. And as you said the rush distances are already really short, so the rocks need to be there early on.
As for Sidian's comments, I've addressed them somewhat through the modification on the middle which mean you no longer have to funnel down the two-wide ramp and some other changes, but both the thirds remain fairly vulnerable. The bases are rather close and you can sit your army at the front of the natural and respond quickly to threats from any side though, which mitigates things somewhat.
I am still worried about all the harassment options afforded, but I'm struggling to find a concrete change to make to solve them. Additionally I'm unsure as to how strong those harassment options are exactly. For example expanding purely horizontally gives you four bases that are much closer together than on a normal map, so maybe having stronger harassment options is reasonable?
Here is a quick sketch of what I think could help with the 10/4 o'clock bases. It admittedly takes a little bit of the character away, as those 4 small ramps look pretty nice, but they are awkward in later stages I think.
What I really don't like are the tiny ramps in the middle. Rush distance is short enough without them and they are bad for pathing later on. Big armies will just try to funnel through there instead of taking the huge ramp right next to it, which can be quite frustrating in the heat of battle. Also the middle path becomes more significant without them.
Oh and I love the drop zone to the natural. It's far enough away to react in time, but it requires constant attention.
On February 13 2017 20:05 Insidioussc2 wrote: Here is a quick sketch of what I think could help with the 10/4 o'clock bases. It admittedly takes a little bit of the character away, as those 4 small ramps look pretty nice, but they are awkward in later stages I think.
What I really don't like are the tiny ramps in the middle. Rush distance is short enough without them and they are bad for pathing later on. Big armies will just try to funnel through there instead of taking the huge ramp right next to it, which can be quite frustrating in the heat of battle. Also the middle path becomes more significant without them.
Oh and I love the drop zone to the natural. It's far enough away to react in time, but it requires constant attention.
Yeah I agree about the horizontal ramps, they're more trouble than they're worth. I'll remove them. The corners are a bit more troublesome, I'm not completely sure about how to keep them defendable while not hindering armies too much, but I'll keep your suggestions in mind while reworking them.
On February 15 2017 16:50 -NegativeZero- wrote: that little area behind the nat is a guaranteed warp-in zone if p can get a pylon up in the base above it, might want to think about that
It's by design.
That zone was added specifically to allow stuff like reapers, warp-ins, drops, blink stalkers to use it. At this point I have some doubts as to whether that was a good design decision admittedly, but there's also stuff to allow for counterplay. There's an overlord spot, the ramp isn't too hard to wall-off, and your army will usually be at the front of the natural so it can react quickly.
i dont think it's an issue, it's not like they're warping into the main, and as you said it's easily scoutable and it's pretty close to where the main army would be if defending