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In Starcraft 1, almost every matchup was figured out. I could just learn to practice certain builds for each matchup, and learn the times to expand/defend. As a beginner, I just chose one macro based build for TvP/TvT/TvZ and I was able to improve my mechanics and learn the timings of the game well.
In Starcraft 2, I'm having a lot of trouble deciding how to get better. I've tried a little bit of trying out builds I've seen on streams, and experimenting with builds myself. What is the best way to get better?
Should I be trying to copy other players top builds that are doing well, or should I be experimenting with my own builds?
Has anyone else been thinking about this?
Additional info: I just got promoted to Platinum Division. I'd like to be a skilled player but (not top/pro). I think this belongs in Strategy so I put it there.
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I think the first step in becoming a better SC2 player is waiting for SC2 to be released <_<
Or are you asking how to become a better starcraft 2 BETA player? They are two different things. Do you see where I'm going with this?
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On April 03 2010 01:21 BlasiuS wrote: I think the first step in becoming a better SC2 player is waiting for SC2 to be released <_<
Or are you asking how to become a better starcraft 2 BETA player? They are two different things. Do you see where I'm going with this?
I want to become a better player for Beta and SC2
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On April 03 2010 01:21 BlasiuS wrote: I think the first step in becoming a better SC2 player is waiting for SC2 to be released <_<
Or are you asking how to become a better starcraft 2 BETA player? They are two different things. Do you see where I'm going with this?
makes no sense imo...
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On April 03 2010 01:21 BlasiuS wrote: I think the first step in becoming a better SC2 player is waiting for SC2 to be released <_<
Or are you asking how to become a better starcraft 2 BETA player? They are two different things. Do you see where I'm going with this?
yes, you are trolling.
edit:
players that are good at beta, are gonna be the better players in SC2 retail as well, it's not about just knowing the numbers that got changed in the patch
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haha wat a useless reply. only way to get better is to play and practice. looking at what other people do is always a good idea, but nothing will make you better then getting on and practicing. even if it frustrating to get proxied every game on ladder =p
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How to become a better player? easy, play ALL the time as ALL 3 races.
'nuff said. ggl
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wow I guess a lot of people don't see where I'm going with this...
It's the beta guys.
the game gets patched almost every week. The game is constantly changing.
Becoming a better beta player is rather useless.
There are no standard BOs. None of the little intricacies of the game have been figured out yet. I daresay there isn't even a dominant strategy as of yet. Cries of imbalance fill the forums, everyone thinks every race is imbalanced.
People think broodlords are too strong.
People think banelings are too strong.
People think marauders & roaches are too strong.
Anyway, my point is, it's still only the beta. Don't worry about becoming a sc2 gosu yet.
On April 03 2010 01:31 Kiarip wrote: yes, you are trolling.
nice post. Just get the fuck out if you aren't going to contribute anything.
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^ why shouldn't he try to become as good as possible in the beta? The good beta players will without a doubt be the better SC2 players at least in the beginning, and very likely for the majority of the game's lifetime.
strategy IS important, and things are being figured out.
I think if you want to improve you should stick to a plan in each match up to get a certain advantage over your opponent, like getting an extra expansion, or getting a significant upgrade advantage throughout the game while not falling behind on expansions, or getting a very strong unit composition early, etc etc. And just keep trying to adjust your play after each game so that you can successfully get arrive at this advantage somewhere in the mid-game, while being able to defend against all the different variations that are played nowadays.
OR you can just try to find a lot of crappy luck/all-in builds like hellion drop, fast banshees, and etc. and just abuse the fact that there's so many of them, and probably no one knows how to defend against all of them yet.
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I think playing random at the beginning is a good way to start. It will let you know the game well, and you can take builds you see other players do an experiment with them. Being on both the offensive and defensive end of builds will help you learn them well. Other than that, practice your macro / micro.
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Well I think a lot about that too. (How to become a better player)
I think for now it is the best idea to keep on playing and try to train things that won't change like micro i dont think they will change how units move and stuff just try to get a feeling for the game and how 1 thing react to another... And when the game finally does come out we can try to focus on particular things.
This is just what I think that also could be totally wrong.
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Certain skills will be prevalent throughout SC2's lifespan. Copying a beta build order isn't going to help you become a better player imo. My list of suggestions to work on would be;
1) Mulitasking, and viewing speed. Don't spend more then 2-4 seconds on a single screen, unless it's a game deciding battle. Jump back and force from base, to expo, to harassing units, to scouting units, etc. Each time you jump to a new screen issue a command to one of the units, then jump away. Also briefly look at the mini map, and make sure nothing suddenly appeared.
2) Micro. Work on really good unit control, especially with attack queuing. Make sure you queue up things like siege tanks, and that you feel comfortable harassing with reapers, etc. While units might change, the ability to focus fire and dance will be very similar across the board.
3) Macro. Keep your resources low and your units constantly building, Good keybindings, building/upgrading while in battle, expand and maynard workers, etc. A lot of macro comes from practice, but just try to stay below a set # of minerals.
The rest of the game will change over beta, but you can still work on perfecting build order / counters. While the exact build/counter might not make it into release, it's still beneficial to practice.
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On April 03 2010 01:39 BlasiuS wrote:wow I guess a lot of people don't see where I'm going with this... It's the beta guys. the game gets patched almost every week. The game is constantly changing. Becoming a better beta player is rather useless. There are no standard BOs. None of the little intricacies of the game have been figured out yet. I daresay there isn't even a dominant strategy as of yet. Cries of imbalance fill the forums, everyone thinks every race is imbalanced. People think broodlords are too strong. People think banelings are too strong. People think marauders & roaches are too strong. Anyway, my point is, it's still only the beta. Don't worry about becoming a sc2 gosu yet. nice post. Just get the fuck out if you aren't going to contribute anything. Lool, chill out man, it's obvious that your post seemed veery trollish... With your attitude?
Who cares if it is beta? Who cares if things will change related to balance? Why do you think people experienced in certain RTS games are still good with other RTS games? Thanks to practice! You will obviously still have a head start compared to ppl that started later. And don't tell anyone to "get the fuck out if you aren't going to contribute anything" because your post totally didn't help as well... Yes, sure, stats may change, but core of the game will remain unchanged. Timings will be changed, counters won't. You are assuming that the game after all the patching will be unchanged and everyone will be playing the same strategies? This is so wrong, it's like telling SC players few years ago that there's no point in improving because strategies will change. "LOL YOU WERE SO STUPID, YOU WERE PRACTICING THIS FD BUILD AND NOW MOST PEOPLE PLAY SIEGE EXPAND OR FLASH BUILD BECAUSE EVERYONE PLAYS DESTINATION SO YOU DIDN'T GAIN ANYTHING WITH YOUR PRACTICE LOLOL!". Seriously? Core of the game will remain unchanged, only timings and builds will change. Practice will be rewarded
My answer to OP - basically try to mimic popular "good" builds and when you feel confident with them, then experiment. If you think that one or other part of the build is vulnerable to certain play then go on and change it, but be sure that if you experiment you can back it up with experience, knowledge and mechanics. And most important thing - be sure that you adapt to opponent. There's no point in following hellion harass with banshees just because you saw somebody going well with this vs roaches if enemy went like 1 hatch muta or something - people can play really weird things and you have to be able to adapt
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Russian Federation22 Posts
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@people that say beta doesn't mean anything
i don't know, it's not true imo. it's because of the 'good' players that dominate in beta that certain units are altered/modified/scrapped etc... becoming a better player in beta will give you a feel (a certain grasp) as to why certain units will come out the way they are come the release, and of course people during release will help re-balance the game with their strats/timings
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OK if you want the easy spoon-fed answer fine.
Massgame, watch replays, read forums, learn from your mistakes.
Same as in any RTS game. Why should SC2 be any different this early in it's life? IMO it's silly to try and become a pro while the game is still in the beta. the BETA.
You really think that once the game is released and gets more developed, that only the people who played during the BETA will be at the top? No.
On April 03 2010 02:14 Kaniol wrote: Timings will be changed, counters won't. You are assuming that the game after all the patching will be unchanged and everyone will be playing the same strategies? This is so wrong, it's like telling SC players few years ago that there's no point in improving because strategies will change. "LOL YOU WERE SO STUPID, YOU WERE PRACTICING THIS FD BUILD AND NOW MOST PEOPLE PLAY SIEGE EXPAND OR FLASH BUILD BECAUSE EVERYONE PLAYS DESTINATION SO YOU DIDN'T GAIN ANYTHING WITH YOUR PRACTICE LOLOL!". Seriously? Core of the game will remain unchanged, only timings and builds will change.
Total bullshit. Patch 7 made thors a hard counter to mutalisks, where previously they weren't at all. So don't tell me that "timings will be changed, counters won't." I'm not assuming that the game will be unchanged after patching. I'm assuming it WILL be changed, and it's being changed at a basic level every few weeks, so there's no point to try and get 'good' since the game is changing so much. The game is changing too much to try and become 'competitive' during the beta. pointless.
Your example is pointless as well. No major balance patches have changed BW since 1.08, which was MORE than a few years ago. And beta patches =/= retail patches. SC2 is MUCH more volatile during the beta than it will ever be once it's released. The core game will remain unchanged only AFTER the retail game is released, not before. Therefore you should only ask the question "How do I become a better player in Starcraft 2" only AFTER the retail game is released, not before.
Beyond massgaming, reading forums, watching replays, and learning from your mistakes, there's no 'secret trick' to becoming good at SC2. ffs, it's still in the beta.
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On April 03 2010 02:30 BlasiuS wrote: OK if you want the easy spoon-fed answer fine.
Massgame, watch replays, read forums, learn from your mistakes.
Same as in any RTS game. Why should SC2 be any different this early in it's life? IMO it's silly to try and become a pro while the game is still in the beta. the BETA.
You really think that once the game is released and gets more developed, that only the people who played during the BETA will be at the top? No.
You misunderstood. People that played beta will be ahead, this doesn't mean that they will be at the top. This means that if 2 people with the same "skill" used the same time, had the same mind, etc etc with only difference being that person A played additionally more because he played also during beta and player B didn't play in beta (and past beta they played the same amount of time) then person A would be better than person B. There's just this implication: "person played beta => person has better experience". It is not equal to your implication of "person is at the top after release => person has played beta".
But yes, this is the "clue"to improvement in any game, like you said - "Massgame, watch replays, read forums, learn from your mistakes."
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Something I do that's helped me improve is that I watch the replay of every game i play. If I lost I try to write down at least 3 things I did to screw up, If I won I try to write down at least 3 things I could have done to win faster/more decisively/etc. Critically analyzing replays is really important.
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On April 03 2010 02:44 Kaniol wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2010 02:30 BlasiuS wrote: OK if you want the easy spoon-fed answer fine.
Massgame, watch replays, read forums, learn from your mistakes.
Same as in any RTS game. Why should SC2 be any different this early in it's life? IMO it's silly to try and become a pro while the game is still in the beta. the BETA.
You really think that once the game is released and gets more developed, that only the people who played during the BETA will be at the top? No.
You misunderstood. People that played beta will be ahead, this doesn't mean that they will be at the top. This means that if 2 people with the same "skill" used the same time, had the same mind, etc etc with only difference being that person A played additionally more because he played also during beta and player B didn't play in beta (and past beta they played the same amount of time) then person A would be better than person B. There's just this implication: "person played beta => person has better experience". It is not equal to your implication of "person is at the top after release => person has played beta"
lol if having more experience doesn't help get you to the top, then what do you mean by "People that played beta will be ahead"?
No two people have the same skill and have played equal amounts of time and have the same mind. Completely irrelevant example. "person has better experience", that doesn't mean they're ahead at all once the game matures. Pick any RTS game that had a beta, there are tons of people who played the beta and massgamed after retail and are still bad at the game. Would you say that those types of people are "ahead"?
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I'd watch replays and play a lot and try to figure out a Build thats pretty solid for each Matchup. I mean: playing silly all-in's and cheesey strategys may be fun and all, but it's not very solid. So come up a Build that can deal with the most common strategy's well, that allows you to gather Intel about what the opponent is doing and react appropriately.
Then I'd focus on practicing that strategy and practice your macro and Micro, which means keep your money low, learn when it's appropriate to expand or when you should attack and learn when/how to switch Unit-Compositions. Micro-wise, you should watch reps and think about ways to use skills (for example Force-Field can be used in so many different ways - to block ramps, to seperate the enemy army, to shield your army from Melee-Attackers etc.) to their fullest potential.
Personally, I just hate cheesey play, but if you choose a cheesey strategy and perfect it, you can of course get a lot of wins, but I don't think you learn much from that...
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The best way to become a great player is to not have a build at all. Having a build, especially following someone else's build, although it might make your timings slightly better for that build, but it also makes your play style a lot more rigid instead of dynamic. What you want to do is to just time your first overlord, pool, queen, and maybe hatch if you are fast expanding. Everything after that should be based on what you scout. There are probably over a dozen openings you can do as Zerg, and the best way to learn them is to just keep playing and let them fall into place naturally, rather than do a build specifically. The key to sc is being able to transition smoothly and adapt toe every situation.
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come on BlasiuS, you knew the meaning of the post. would it have been better/more clear if he said
"I want to become a better RTS player though the medium SC2 Beta and eventually SC2" ??
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learn good unit compositions, thats the most important thing in sc2 rite now
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On April 03 2010 03:06 stockton wrote: come on BlasiuS, you knew the meaning of the post. would it have been better/more clear if he said
"I want to become a better RTS player though the medium SC2 Beta and eventually SC2" ??
you completely missed my point. Yes I knew the meaning of the post, that's exactly why I responded the way I did.
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What I would suggest is watching some of the Day[9] early SC2 commentaries. He does a lot to talk about how you improve, watching your own replays and figuring out where you could have done something better.
It's constantly asking "what could I have done better here, or what resources at my disposal were not being used effectively" that is going to really improve your play. Massing games on its own will not allow you improve as quickly.
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Just got promoted to Platinum! I love Terran
OK! I'm not as dumb as some of you guys think I am. I know what macro/micro are. I know to analyze replays. I've watched almost all of the Day9's casts. I was just curious whether I should just copy builds or try my own stuff.
I think I've come to the conclusion that I'm just going to try to make a fast expand in every matchup. I think I will have the most trouble with TvP, but I just did a marauder/banshee build that worked really well.
Also by doing my own unique builds, the opponents won't be used to them, so I will have a set of unique timings that I can exploit.
Thanks for all the responses so far guys.
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TossFloss
Canada606 Posts
On April 03 2010 01:39 BlasiuS wrote: Becoming a better beta player is rather useless.
Skills from SC1 transfer to SC2. SC2 beta shares more similarities with SC2 than SC1 shares with SC2. Therefore, skills from SC2 beta transfer to SC2.
There are no standard BOs. None of the little intricacies of the game have been figured out yet. I daresay there isn't even a dominant strategy as of yet. Cries of imbalance fill the forums, everyone thinks every race is imbalanced.
You fail to grasp the key elements to becoming a good StarCraft player.
nice post. Just get the fuck out if you aren't going to contribute anything.
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TossFloss
Canada606 Posts
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On April 03 2010 03:23 zerglingsfolife wrote:Just got promoted to Platinum! I love Terran OK! I'm not as dumb as some of you guys think I am. I know what macro/micro are. I know to analyze replays. I've watched almost all of the Day9's casts. I was just curious whether I should just copy builds or try my own stuff. I think I've come to the conclusion that I'm just going to try to make a fast expand in every matchup. I think I will have the most trouble with TvP, but I just did a marauder/banshee build that worked really well. Also by doing my own unique builds, the opponents won't be used to them, so I will have a set of unique timings that I can exploit. Thanks for all the responses so far guys.
Try your own stuff. nothing is better than Learning the Feel of the game. The experience is really what is going to get you where you want to be. Learn to scout better. memorize hard counters. and remember to utilize them mid game. Start understanding why you expand when you do rationalize why you are making a good decision instead of a bad one. And remember to practice your transitions!!! yeah reaper rush is great but you'll need to get out of it eventually. And when you do transition, how will you utilize your old building instead of letting it rot. these are all important skills to learn and what better time than focusing on learning them now before the game even hits market shelves.
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If you are in top Gold div you are already ahead of the curve, majority of players are Bronze/Silver - so I'd already say you have to be a decent player to have got to the rank you are at. (I'm a decent player and I'm not ranked as high as you in Gold div). However from my experience in BW and War3, I'd definitely have to say the best way to get better is as follows:
1. Review ALL your games - I can't stress how important is to look at games you win, not just games you lose. More often than not just because a player wins the game doesn't mean they made 0 mistakes whatsoever. Don't hesitate to be critical of your play - if you know you were late on your build timings, or late on your expansion, or over-committed to something and got lucky, or simply not up to par with your usual performance, make sure to take note of it.
2. Stopwatch. This is a very important thing to have with you when practicing, start the stopwatch at the beginning of the match, and set it up on your keyboard so you can glance to it quickly. This way you can be sure that your timings are spot-on every time, and more importantly, you will know exactly how long it is into the game at all times. This is a very important thing until you get the timings memorized (and more over will help you do it).
3. Write. It. Down. If you notice a mistake in one of your replays write it down on a piece of paper. Refer to these notes before the match you play after your replay review. Keep them on hand when in-game as a reminder to what NOT to do.
4. Watch VODs / pro Replays. The only way to know if you are doing something wrong is to watch pros and see how it is done right. Now of course that doesn't mean you straight up clone a player like White-Ra for example and copy his play style exactly. However, until the mid-game hits (which I think can be agreed is about 14 minutes to 23 minutes for SC2) all builds are relatively standard. There is the fastest way to get to X position in game, and thats that.
5. Take breaks. Unless you intend to become a progamer in SC2, I find it is best to take a break after about an hour and a half of play. It gives you some to recover from a series of loses (if this is the case) - or simply to mull over what you've discovered about your play in a neutral environment. What I mean is if a person loses 3 games in a row, and then tries to play a fourth objectively, they will be overly-critical of their play. Making mistakes is bad, but being confident about your choices in game is even worse. Long ago in BW a pro once told me - stick with your build and strategy - don't try and change up your pace mid-game if you aren't good enough to do it.
Hope this helps ya out! Happy gaming.
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TossFloss
Canada606 Posts
On April 03 2010 03:23 zerglingsfolife wrote:Just got promoted to Platinum! I love Terran OK! I'm not as dumb as some of you guys think I am. I know what macro/micro are. I know to analyze replays. I've watched almost all of the Day9's casts. I was just curious whether I should just copy builds or try my own stuff. I think I've come to the conclusion that I'm just going to try to make a fast expand in every matchup. I think I will have the most trouble with TvP, but I just did a marauder/banshee build that worked really well. Also by doing my own unique builds, the opponents won't be used to them, so I will have a set of unique timings that I can exploit. Thanks for all the responses so far guys.
Well you need somewhere to start. I suggest first copying a build directly, then experiment with your own modifications.
When watching replays, keep in mind that the player may have built something in response to the other player. For example, you watch a replay where Zerg builds X spine crawlers. He may have built spine crawlers in response to scouting information (or inability to scout!) (i.e. he saw building Y go up at time Z and knows exactly how many spine crawlers he needs). Otherwise, he may have built less spine crawlers or more spine crawlers or none at all.
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On April 03 2010 03:36 TossFloss wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2010 03:23 zerglingsfolife wrote:Just got promoted to Platinum! I love Terran OK! I'm not as dumb as some of you guys think I am. I know what macro/micro are. I know to analyze replays. I've watched almost all of the Day9's casts. I was just curious whether I should just copy builds or try my own stuff. I think I've come to the conclusion that I'm just going to try to make a fast expand in every matchup. I think I will have the most trouble with TvP, but I just did a marauder/banshee build that worked really well. Also by doing my own unique builds, the opponents won't be used to them, so I will have a set of unique timings that I can exploit. Thanks for all the responses so far guys. Well you need somewhere to start. I suggest first copying a build directly, then experiment with your own modifications. When watching replays, keep in mind that the player may have built something in response to the other player. For example, you watch a replay where Zerg builds X spine crawlers. He may have built spine crawlers in response to scouting information (i.e. he saw building Y go up at time Z and knows exactly how many spine crawlers he needs). Otherwise, he may have built less spine crawlers or more spine crawlers or none at all.
All good points. Bottom line is this - pick a build that works for YOU, and if copying a pros build down to the letter is what works for you, there is nothing wrong with that. Basically though what you need to get used to most is an opening, a way to get Y army size / eco at X time, this way you can adapt, rather than strictly follow a build.
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Also read this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=66048 Thing that worked for me VERY well was this: + Show Spoiler +The technique I use might not work for you, but I’ll mention it just in case it helps. I keep a running scoreboard in my head to help me identify the points of the game where one player took the advantage. This can also help you identify if the game was one in a huge battle, or if one player simply pressed his slight marginal advantage to victory. For example, in a Zerg versus Protoss mid game on Blue Storm, Zerg drops 24 Zerglings into a Protoss base (bottom left). Here are three possible situations: - The Zerglings kill a few Gateways while Zerg expands (++Zerg) - The Zerglings kill nothing but allow Zerg to set up an expansion and defend it (+Zerg) - The Zerglings kill nothing but stop Protoss from expanding (Even) - The Zerglings die to Cannons (+Protoss). There are really only a few (<10) turning points like this in a game that you need to watch for, and they should help you realize the exact moments when the losing player went wrong.
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To become better you need general analytical thinking.
To Beta talk : Learning specific BO's won't help you when the real game is out. Best way to learn & contribute now is to play all 3 races and judge by yourself. Watching VODs or replays can't hurt too. Skill transfer... well if you pick up bad habits now(may be latent) they will be transfered to release SC2 as well.
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