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Sheth: I've found that at the higher level most people are still struggling with the midgame and there's a lot of opinions and not a lot of concrete arguments yet. Openings and earlygame strategy are very beneficial to the average player, but I'm really interested in how you approach midgame. Any ETA on a section regarding that?
I support this. There have been a lot of stuff about zergs early game, but nothing on mid or even lategame.
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United States2095 Posts
I know I said I wasn't going to post again until I had my next guide up. I'm sorry about that. Also over 10k views! Although I'm sure a lot of them are about the flames and what not its still impressive to me! Thanks everyone who read my guide !! :D
StrinterN -- Thanks.
savysmith -- Glad you found some things beneficial in the guide. Zergling and zealot micro is very tricky. Also very tricky to try and explain. The best advice I can give you is to try and finish off zealots. If they live to run away and regain shields they can be very powerful. So its important that if you attack you don't lose zerglings at the cost of easily regenerable shields. Theres more I could say, but I need to work on other stuff right now.
FaZe -- Thanks.
KiwiKaki -- we're pro. =)
Alou -- Good question. Roaches have possibilities for offense and defense. However versus just a 2gate early push I like to defend with queens and zerglings. That way you can do quick pressure, roach is kind of a slow ominous pressure. There are times when roaches are good, like to throw off an opponent or keep him inside of his base or simply to kill his rushing zealots if you don't like zergling micro. I'm just not a big fan of them! :D
Blade -- Yea... I keep working on it and then coming here to respond to posts. Typing large response posts also drains my writing moivation lol. So I'm working on it! (have 4 pages of it done on word... just need to clean it up and edit alot...)
gromz -- Thanks : )
Darkforce -- What push would I have less resources to defend with? Also I assure you this build puts pressure on the protoss! Zerglings with speed and a threat of banelings early on if they fast expoed. It can definetly have a threat :D
ret -- I know right? I keep wanting to do homework or guide work and I just keep reading O.O
Faust -- Haha I'll try and stay back so you can know where I'm at :D
Piski -- Negatory. (At your second post, yeah I'm working on it! :p Would help to have beta back)
Floop -- Right now the ETA is I'm kind of waiting to discuss my guide and ZvT in general with several other zergs. I'm also replying to a lot of stuff in this thread + ofc real life. So I'd say sometime within 3-4 days... (I hope!)
Catz, Incontrol, Everytime, Waffles -- Dance off to the death 10PM meet me at Iceland.
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Are tunneling claw roaches a better way to deal with collosus than corruptors?
Easier to mass, much more effective once the coll are dead, but at the risk of being detected by obs.
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ya. i always have trouble knowing the difference between when the protoss is going a tech voidray rush, or if he's going for a timing ground army push.
if he's doing ground army, i'd rather buff up, but if he's doing void ray push, i need to get lair really fast for hydras.
so seems that i have to sacrifice that overlord every game, but sometimes, it's hard to do that.
cause it's so hard to sacrifice the overlord every game... seems that i'll need to always go for some sort of timing push with zerglings/roach, so during the attack, i can get some scouting info?
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On July 05 2010 03:09 doss wrote: Are tunneling claw roaches a better way to deal with collosus than corruptors?
Easier to mass, much more effective once the coll are dead, but at the risk of being detected by obs.
if they have colossus, they've already got the robo (and even if they rushed to col) they still probably built an observer while the support bay was going down.
unless you see they rushed colossus and have 1 immortal in which case... go for it?
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
@skyfive: wtf? "stoop to their level" a guy was waving his dick around and I said it has to stop.. it's a recognized problem on the forum I am a "old member" of.. so who exactly are you to condemn me for that? What context? I mean you literally laid out the context for WHY I would be disgruntled.. and it isn't really a shocker.
@catz: Dude listen: You were acting like a dick. If you apologized and felt you explained it then lick your wounds and move off. Randomly dropping some incident out of nowhere as some kind of attack on me is so completely immature and random I almost don't even know how to respond?
There is going to be changes in the Sc2 forum very soon. Consider it fair warning from me that I am telling you guys that it will no longer be OK to tell someone they have a lesser opinion or that they have no right contributing when they aren't a platinum this, diamond that or a ITL champ etc. If they are giving effort to contribute they deserve that respect. If they are being an idiot TL will root them out as usual.
Btw this isn't an argument. It is me stating that bad things have been happening and they need to change. Attacking me or telling me to "calm down" won't make these things any less true.
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On July 05 2010 05:05 {88}iNcontroL wrote: @skyfive: wtf? "stoop to their level" a guy was waving his dick around and I said it has to stop.. it's a recognized problem on the forum I am a "old member" of.. so who exactly are you to condemn me for that? What context? I mean you literally laid out the context for WHY I would be disgruntled.. and it isn't really a shocker.
@catz: Dude listen: You were acting like a dick. If you apologized and felt you explained it then lick your wounds and move off. Randomly dropping some incident out of nowhere as some kind of attack on me is so completely immature and random I almost don't even know how to respond?
There is going to be changes in the Sc2 forum very soon. Consider it fair warning from me that I am telling you guys that it will no longer be OK to tell someone they have a lesser opinion or that they have no right contributing when they aren't a platinum this, diamond that or a ITL champ etc. If they are giving effort to contribute they deserve that respect. If they are being an idiot TL will root them out as usual.
Btw this isn't an argument. It is me stating that bad things have been happening and they need to change. Attacking me or telling me to "calm down" won't make these things any less true.
I completely agree with you a hundred percent, I acted like a dick and apologized for it, we're clear on that.
What you consider a "random attack" is just a prime example of why I don't think you're the right person to ask me not to act like a dick, that's all.
Thanks for the fair warnings, now with your blessing, ima 'lick my wounds and move off'.
edit: really sorry about all this Shawny <3 (and everyone else)
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very.. interesting thread. I would organise it a bit better into spoilers though, and add a build counter section (which build is a.. "counter" to another build, etc) otherwise, great post =D
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So what are your thoughts on late game counters to the giant Protoss Ball with ranged Colossus? Some players opt for corruptors and others for infestors to deal with Colossus. The main problem is that Roaches are too supply heavy and Hydras melt too quickly to Colossus. It seems you need a massive eco advantage to come out ahead in the fight.
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Personally, I've been having some trouble with 4 gate all ins on a few specific maps. Blistering Sands and Desert Oasis are good examples. Usually I can hold them off just fine with an appropriate build + lings + spine crawlers on most maps. However, on maps where Z cannot utilize spine crawlers effectively, this opening by P becomes exceptionally difficult to stop. Especially when P just knows how to use force field properly. This spell drastically reduces the effectiveness of the mass ling "counter" to 4 gate.
I was tossing around the idea of possibly having an additional queen or two bringing my total up to 4 for additional ranged support behind the zerglings. The queens are also not particularly vulnerable to the stalker fire unlike roaches. Their damage is also comparable to that of the roach and they don't cost any gas, allowing for a more smooth transition into hydra. Of course, this is all pretty much theory right now.
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So facing a forge wall FE, what timings would you recommend? I've been doing a 14 extractor 14 pool build, but it gets out-macroed pretty easily. What should I do? Getting a third hatch up though...seems pretty risky. Is it worthwhile to just try and survive, macro and get a third up when you've defended the push?
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You try mass roach nydus into main base. That usually works, especially if you send 2 roaches to the front to take his attention away.
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On June 30 2010 14:46 Drazzzt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2010 00:56 Sheth wrote: Drazzt -- Very interesting question. I find that if you go 13 pool it will definetly provide you with enough lings compared with 15 pool. I would compare it with Mondragons 9 hatch 9 pool build vs. the old 12 hatch 11 pool build. 12 hatch is VERY hard to defend a good 2 gate build, where as with 9 hatch 9 pool its easier. Howevever if you just can't hold it with zerglings, a good idea is to make 4-5 roaches to pressure him, but don't feel like you have to kill him. These roaches should just be used to chase zealots and force him to cannon or stalker / sentry. (When you go roaches tho be careful Protoss like to make voidrays vs. roach zergs!)
Thanks for your answer, I like your style of answering to all ppl in the thread btw. GJ. It definitely becomes easier and I sometimes even tried 12 pool to be even more safe, but against very good zeal micro I still have a hard time. Probably my ling micro isnt top notch, but I have to say that compared to SC1 I find it kinda annoying that your lings after popping out are on attack-move towards the rally point (or is there a way to avoid this?). So, if you don't look very closely at your 2nd hatch, your lings tend to sacrifice themselves in no-time against the zeals bashing your hatch (and good protoss move their zeals right to your eggs while hatch-bashing in order to get several hits before you can move the lings away). Using your queen is very dangerous as the zeals come so earlier that you dont have much creep and queens are so awfully slow and die so fast to zeals. Later its getting a little better. One game I lost because the protoss added 3-4 probes to his attacking zeals which is really hardcore. I should've probably just cancelled the hatch as pulling probes costs quite a lot of minerals, but I am not sure. So, this is the reason why I experimented with roach openings in the end expanding only at around 30 supply after having 3-5 roaches (depending on what I scout). At least against 2-gate openings. Protoss has to be very careful then, because I can add a lot of roaches very fast and without cannons he can be in trouble soon. So, when protoss fast-expands and adds cannons you have enough time to pump pure drones later on which will lead to a slight income advantage.
Funny, the new changes exactly dealt with the problems that I mentioned above. Longer Zealot build time and move-rally instead of attack-really. So, your opening might become more viable now at closer distances, Sheth :-).
(unfortunately, I am EU not US, so I couldnt test it)
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oh shit, you are Chosen?? wow, I had no idea. I was assuming for some reason, Sheth was another one of the old XD's/quebecer guys like SLush.. even though you aren't Canadian lol
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As a randomplayer I really hate the zealotnerf from Zs and Ps point of view. I really loved 2gating as P because 90% of the Zergs fastexpanded and you could easily win. But I really loved facing a 2gatepush as Z even more. When I scoutet it, I just onebased roaches and completely skipped lings and demolished the 2gating toss at this point.
With the recent zealotnerf u cant 2gate anymore and as Zerg I double steal gas to force the toss to build zealots and go onebase roach(skipping lings) into gg
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Sheth, please keep it coming! I'm a lower-platinum zerg right now, winning most of my ZvZ and ZvT games but I just get stomped by any gold+ protoss no matter what they do. It seems almost impossible to macro enough to prepare for how quickly my units melt to any early-midgame protoss push, while simultaneously building all the units I need to do it. Even if I stay one base ahead on macro I just can't keep an army that kills a ball of zealots/stalkers + anything (anything being colossi, immortals, or HTs). Often I'm desperately pumping as many lings, roaches, or drones as I can to deal with an early push, and suddenly void rays or phoenixes show up and it's GG... couldn't have teched to anti-air if I wanted to. I need all the advice I can get!
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Nice guide chosen !
I was a little skeptical whether the build was actually effective, but I'm willing to give it a shot. I typically prefer the idra-style build where you're looking to get lings and a quicker expo. I just have the timing memorized to get my 2nd queen out exactly when the 2nd spawn larvae & my natural hatchery is up.
I have been having trouble with those pesky zealot opening builds since the beta came back, so this might help
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Hi, nice guide for a decent ZvP opening, but after reading through the entire thread, I think I agree with Xapti: getting pool, queen, and gas all before starting your expo seems to delay your hatch by too much and hinders your economy too much.
I don't think extractor + 100 gas for ling speed so early is required to hold of early zealots, and that you can do fine with just zerglings + queen, waiting to build your 1st extractor until after you start your expansion (I usually do it around 19-20 supply).
I'm not suggesting you change your pool timing (I also do 13 pool), just to wait longer to get gas. I feel that it slows down your 2base economy by a lot to get gas so early; and really, the whole point of going FE is to get 2 saturated bases as quickly as possible.
However you are definitely a better player than me, so I'll just ask: have you had any experience with waiting until after starting your expo before getting gas? Are you able to hold off aggressive zealots?
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Against p I usually 14 pool 16 hatch on larger maps and seem to do fine. On smaller maps i go 14 gas 13 pool but if they go 2 gate i am still having a hard time dealing with it. What should i do? When should i take my natural? I know i need roaches but do i build the roach waren right after the pool or what? Thank you in advance.
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I find that with the new patch, slings are not so good anymore. P just kills me so fast with FF. I think there is something wrong with FF.
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