[D]Terran Defender's Advantage - Page 3
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Voyager I
United States260 Posts
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knyttym
United States5797 Posts
On July 31 2010 16:02 dudeman001 wrote: I've gone through the posts over the first 2 pages so far and my mind hasn't really been changed from disagreeing with the OP. I'm primarily thinking about 3 main points. First off it's that Terran players walling off is nothing new. They did it in BW, they still do it in SC2. It's an advantage of being Terran. What did Zerg have in ZvT (since this is the main focus of the OP)? It began with really early map control, using as few as 6 speedlings to keep Terran in their base. I did some searching, and I'll admit that SC2 Zergling speed takes far too long (110 seconds compared to 80 in BW). Even so, a queen can hold off any reaper shenanigans until the upgrade finishes. This sort of map control/presence continues as creep spreads around the place, giving the Zerg mobility and vision of huge parts of the map.At this point, Zerg now has to worry about reactor hellions. Well, a Zerg that has his second base can note that a queen blocks the ramp against hellions beautifully, and a few well placed spine crawlers will make early hellion aggression impossible. (OP, you argue about sunken being so much better than spine crawlers, and I simply don't believe this is true. Spine crawlers cost 25 less total minerals including the drone, can move around, but take 10 more seconds to complete.) If you're on the ball with scouting and see any evidence of hellions, you'll have ample time to prepare. Which brings me to my third point, spine crawlers are not shit. The marauder-counters-spinecrawler argument makes no sense. Can a well timed marine push bust a sunken line in BW? Yes. Can they do it with said 11 mutalisks bearing down on them? No. Similarly the spine crawler is not an end all defensive structure. It is a deterrent, and in the case of holding a push it becomes a defender's advantage. Use units to soak damage while they go to down on those tiny infantry units. Hell, make a good number of ling/baneling and tear up any early aggression. As a Terran I have nightmares of pushing out knowing banelings are on the field, possibly burrowed right under me as I attack. If whoever reads my post takes anything from it, it's that to win Starcraft you have to know your opponent. In this particular situation, Zerg has to understand the massive concern Terran has with a hardcore macro Zerg (i.e. Idra and his death army). Realizing this makes it clear that Terran will try anything to stop that powerhouse from coming into fruition. The tools to defend yourself ARE there, so make the most of them. Zerg doesn't have problems defending, it's only when they skimp on units or crawlers to power drone do they find themselves being massacred by timing pushes and the like. Queens actually can't hold off all reaper harass but that isn't that important. Defending the first few hellions has been very annoying in most of my zvt games. Queen on ramp means he can run into the natural drone line and in certain cases just shoot the queen from the low ground. I've been constantly using metalopolis as my example but I think it is the best known map with an open natural. I'm not sure why I keep coming back to hellions but defending hellions wasn't really the point of this thread. Spines are really bad versus hellions. I have yet to watch/play a game that has changed my mind about this. Let me try to find some VODs to show you what I mean. Spines deter very little. 3 sunkens in brood war will deter 12marines 2 firebats and 2 medics. 3 spines will be busted easily by 6 marauders. Spines may be equal in strength to sunkens but comparated to the overall damage output increase of sc2 units, they are now weaker. I haven't actually found a ling/ baneling opener that can be used as a standard but if there is a vod you've seen it in, please recommend it. Strong baneling play is always fun to watch but as I stated before I am skeptical that it can become a standard opener. | ||
MythicalMage
1360 Posts
Exactly. It's supposed to be annoying. Being annoying doesn't mean it's bad. Void Rays are annoying. Baneling are annoying. Mutas are annoying. What the hell? First you start talking about "they're bad vs hellions," then you say "spines will be bused by six marauders." There's a real zerg tech switch for you. XP. Spinecrawlers are SUPPOSED to be weak to marauders, otherwise you'd walk in with a pure marine army twice as big. And yes, banelings aren't "standard" but if you have the gas and see the potential for damage, take advantage of it. You can't say, "Well in Brood War this was blah" without looking at every single other change that has happened in the game. | ||
knyttym
United States5797 Posts
On July 31 2010 16:07 MythicalMage wrote: I have played zerg. Not focusing on it at the moment. Why not roaches after lair? I dunno all the timings by heart of when hellions arrive, but it's something you have to tinker with to find what works for you. Also hellions kiting roaches isn't easy. Very few PRO players do it, they mostly try to avoid roaches when possible. EDIT: The second part was asking about what particular bit of turtling terran you had a problem with. Roaches after lair are too late. Idra has actually adopted a quick roach build for anti hellion that I have been using. It still feels fragile but I'm still feeling it out. Kiting roaches actually isn't hard. I've had it done to me several times so I know it isn't so difficult only top top players can do it. So it's not really a problem with turtling. It is that the minimum amount of units Terran is able to defend with is way more cost efficient then what the zerg is able to do. With zerg defense you must match his supply resource for resource because you don't have an extra defensive advantage. Terran does have an extra advantage and thus can get away with more. When you can get away with more, you have more optimal builds. Optimal builds lead to an advantage so I said Terran has an extra advantage. On July 31 2010 16:43 MythicalMage wrote: Give me ONE pro game where the reaper gets anywhere near a queen on creep. Reapers avoid queens on creep like the plague. Exactly. It's supposed to be annoying. Being annoying doesn't mean it's bad. Void Rays are annoying. Baneling are annoying. Mutas are annoying. What the hell? First you start talking about "they're bad vs hellions," then you say "spines will be bused by six marauders." There's a real zerg tech switch for you. XP. Spinecrawlers are SUPPOSED to be weak to marauders, otherwise you'd walk in with a pure marine army twice as big. And yes, banelings aren't "standard" but if you have the gas and see the potential for damage, take advantage of it. You can't say, "Well in Brood War this was blah" without looking at every single other change that has happened in the game. LZgamer vs machine on lost temple in Day[9]s beta countdown cast. LZ vs strifecro(I don't remember exactly who it was) on metalopolis. Both will be uploaded soon and you will see what microed reapers are capable of. Spines are bad at killing hellions and die too fast to marauders. Since spine crawlers are bad versus both of these units, what exactly does a zerg have for his defensive advantage when faced against them? Actually going to sleep now but I'll be sure to check out your responses tomorrow. | ||
dudeman001
United States2412 Posts
On July 31 2010 16:37 kNyTTyM wrote: Queens actually can't hold off all reaper harass but that isn't that important. Defending the first few hellions has been very annoying in most of my zvt games. Queen on ramp means he can run into the natural drone line and in certain cases just shoot the queen from the low ground. I've been constantly using metalopolis as my example but I think it is the best known map with an open natural. I'm not sure why I keep coming back to hellions but defending hellions wasn't really the point of this thread. Spines are really bad versus hellions. I have yet to watch/play a game that has changed my mind about this. Let me try to find some VODs to show you what I mean. Spines deter very little. 3 sunkens in brood war will deter 12marines 2 firebats and 2 medics. 3 spines will be busted easily by 6 marauders. Spines may be equal in strength to sunkens but comparated to the overall damage output increase of sc2 units, they are now weaker. I haven't actually found a ling/ baneling opener that can be used as a standard but if there is a vod you've seen it in, please recommend it. Strong baneling play is always fun to watch but as I stated before I am skeptical that it can become a standard opener. But queens do stop reaper harass =/ Either way, once the pool is up and a queen is out, Zerg can also have lings and those combined with the queen will stop a reaper. Fast hellions can be a really powerful play. (Also a risk play, as by the time Terran has at least 4 hellions, Zergs that went straight to roach will have 5+ roaches out). But that's why spine crawlers are all the defense zerg needs. I guess they don't do obscene amounts of damage to hellions, but hellions cannot kill them and so where you place spine crawlers dictates where Terran can effectively harass. One close to the ramp so they can't kite-kill your queen, and one by the natural mineral line is all you really need in terms of spine crawlers. But relying on spine crawlers without units to back them up will never work. This applies to 6marauder vs 3 spine crawlers. Like I said before, sunken lines can only stop so much, they're obscenely more powerful with unit support from the Zerg. This is only easier for Zerg now that larva injection has removed the intense stress for larva Zerg players faced in BW. Spine damage doesn't feel strong (25, 30 vs armored) but it's still a hefty amount. Again, relying on the structure alone doesn't work. Protoss players have learned making cannons with nothing else can be a very risk play nowadays. Because Zerg can make more units than ever before, balancing units, workers and defense is very manageable in SC2. I honestly don't know baneling openings very well. I just know, from the Terran perspective, moving out becomes the scariest thing in the world. Sometimes I'll delay my push until I get a raven, just because instantly losing all of my marines means instant loss. Compare the baneling to the hellion, it serves multiple purposes. Both units can be added to the army composition, and while the hellion forces the enemy to watch out for harass, the baneling forces the enemy to watch out when being aggressive. | ||
eivind
111 Posts
On July 31 2010 17:26 dudeman001 wrote: But queens do stop reaper harass =/ Either way, once the pool is up and a queen is out, Zerg can also have lings and those combined with the queen will stop a reaper. Fast hellions can be a really powerful play. (Also a risk play, as by the time Terran has at least 4 hellions, Zergs that went straight to roach will have 5+ roaches out). But that's why spine crawlers are all the defense zerg needs. I guess they don't do obscene amounts of damage to hellions, but hellions cannot kill them and so where you place spine crawlers dictates where Terran can effectively harass. One close to the ramp so they can't kite-kill your queen, and one by the natural mineral line is all you really need in terms of spine crawlers. But relying on spine crawlers without units to back them up will never work. This applies to 6marauder vs 3 spine crawlers. Like I said before, sunken lines can only stop so much, they're obscenely more powerful with unit support from the Zerg. This is only easier for Zerg now that larva injection has removed the intense stress for larva Zerg players faced in BW. Spine damage doesn't feel strong (25, 30 vs armored) but it's still a hefty amount. Again, relying on the structure alone doesn't work. Protoss players have learned making cannons with nothing else can be a very risk play nowadays. Because Zerg can make more units than ever before, balancing units, workers and defense is very manageable in SC2. I honestly don't know baneling openings very well. I just know, from the Terran perspective, moving out becomes the scariest thing in the world. Sometimes I'll delay my push until I get a raven, just because instantly losing all of my marines means instant loss. Compare the baneling to the hellion, it serves multiple purposes. Both units can be added to the army composition, and while the hellion forces the enemy to watch out for harass, the baneling forces the enemy to watch out when being aggressive. The point is that fast hellions / nearly any tactic Terran have is not a very risky play. Why? Wall off, then build 1 marauder (for example against your roaches). You will have time to prepare by the time the wall is broken. You can also build bunker at no cost. The problem with hellions is that they are always cost effective. The Z player must use alot of his economy to just defend. If you go for roaches you lose 200 minerals + 1 larva (drone) just to build the building. Then you need 2-3 roaches == at least 150 minerals and 50 gas. Now Zerg player got a lot less drones at the mineral/gas line even not considering that the hellions will kill something unless the T player suck or Z player is at 1 base. Remember that larva is a resource , each time Z player must use them to make an defending unit the advantage of the larva system is lost. But the biggest problem isnt hellions.. Consider the time Zerg has to prepare against an attack? Answer: The distance to walk to zerg base. For example look at ZvZ. It is just stupid match up, you MUST match the opponents army or it is instant lose. The only advantage the defender got is queen, which barely makes a difference because you just ignore it and kill drones. The matchup I actually like is ZvP, because the P units are so slow and P cant wall off as effective as T. The result: I can use mobility! | ||
MythicalMage
1360 Posts
Anyhow, ZvP is looking pretty cool right now. Seems like there's a lot of cool things from both sides. ZvT is pretty fun to watch, IMO, especially if the Terran is going mech, whether it succeeds or fails. ZvZ is comlete and utter bullshit. | ||
eivind
111 Posts
On July 31 2010 17:55 MythicalMage wrote: Bunkers have a cost. They cost mining time, travel time, and 100 minerals. If you salvage it, you get that back. Thing is, if hellions weren't as good as they were, mech would die completely. There's no way to make mech viable without hellions. Anyhow, ZvP is looking pretty cool right now. Seems like there's a lot of cool things from both sides. ZvT is pretty fun to watch, IMO, especially if the Terran is going mech, whether it succeeds or fails. ZvZ is comlete and utter bullshit. I agree that mech need hellions, but hellions mobility is far too good. They should have a speed decrease and speed upgrade in reactor/tech lab. This would give Z time to prepare. | ||
MythicalMage
1360 Posts
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MythicalMage
1360 Posts
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Madkipz
Norway1643 Posts
On July 31 2010 18:03 MythicalMage wrote: It also bears noting that you won't move out with one Vulture. But when you make a hellion, you make them two at time, from a reactor. So having a speed upgrade makes a lot less sense with a massable unit. And did I mention that that would require a tech lab which would totally destroy numerous timing pushes, and mech. because having inherently different ways to approach a MU is an inherent racial trait that only terran has AMIRITE? no really, this thread has some potential for discussion but overall i cant help but agree that the terran vs Zerg situation is pretty much solved and most of the issues zerg has with hellions and whatnot are actually provoked by map layouts rather than racial imbalance or fairness. Delta quadrant for example as mentioned in the op is a terran based map, in that terran can easily sneak in hellions to roast probes regardless of how well you try to defend. As for hellions, scrap station esque or close air positions LT THor drops are even worse. | ||
MythicalMage
1360 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On July 31 2010 15:35 kNyTTyM wrote: The queen does not make up for that at all. If someone finds a way to reliably integrate burrowed banelings into a standard game then I will be happy. Burrowed banelings are more like really expensive spider mines then lurkers. They can buy you time but using them in a defensive posture may prove difficult. I disagree with the spider mine comparison for two reasons: 1) The detonation of banelings is controllable. You can move them if they get detected, and the opponent can't force you to use them in disadvantageous positions (e.g. he can't drag them with a single unit for a harmless explosion like you could in SC1). 2) The way Terran macro works forces you to be much more conservative with scans than you were in SC1. If Terran is on the offensive, you can expect him to have maybe 1-2 scans to work with. Any more, and that means he has to have saved a scan, meaning that his push had to have been about 5-6 marines weaker than it could have been per scan. These 2 things together combine to one effect: once Terran has wasted his scan, if he doesn't push in, it is impossible for him to engage in a cost-effective manner. He can't progress forward without either waiting for a scan, or deliberately walking over the burrowed banelings (or unintentionally, if his scan didn't catch the banelings in the first place--in which case you get an extremely cost-effective unit trade). | ||
Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
Defending against lings? 1 baneling can kill 5-7 zerglings easy, especially in a defensive position like a ramp. Defending against roaches? They're so slow you can see them coming from across the map with plenty of time to set up whatever chosen defense you have. roach/queen, roach/hydra, spine colonies, and zerglings are all very acceptable and powerful defenses. Defending against mutalisk? This is ZvZ... you did make a couple extra queens right? Problem solved... Defending against hydralisks? You've got to be at least 20 min into the game if hydras made it to your base in any decent number, we're no longer talking about early game where defenders advantage matters. I really don't get why people complain about ZvZ... it's the only MU that I feel like I have options in and aren't struggling to live from the moment the game starts. EDIT: fixed it for you mythic. You're right, mech was too narrow of a perspective, any terran can employ hellions, free of charge. Not just 1 build style. | ||
MythicalMage
1360 Posts
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rauk
United States2228 Posts
On July 31 2010 16:43 MythicalMage wrote: Give me ONE pro game where the reaper gets anywhere near a queen on creep. Reapers avoid queens on creep like the plague. ensnare vs gerrard and check in ogs vs prime takes on and kills queens with his speed reapers in the early game. | ||
MythicalMage
1360 Posts
On July 31 2010 18:28 rauk wrote: ensnare vs gerrard and check in ogs vs prime takes on and kills queens with his speed reapers in the early game. Damnit all, mentioning a korean game. But that's speed reapers in a completely different style. That's more similar to LzGamer's style these days with continuous reaper production to secure an expo, if it's anything like what I'm thinking of. Anyhow, that comes a bit later and you have speed and you have a lot of reapers. So, the zerg would have speed and a queen, but yeah that can be rather effective. At that point, it almost stops being harass, and becomes early pressure. | ||
eivind
111 Posts
On July 31 2010 18:22 Jermstuddog wrote: I'm done arguing with mythicals "just do everything and you can beat mech" logic, but I see people mentioning ZvZ and I would like to point out, Z has a much better "defenders advantage" in this MU. Defending against lings? 1 baneling can kill 5-7 zerglings easy, especially in a defensive position like a ramp. Defending against roaches? They're so slow you can see them coming from across the map with plenty of time to set up whatever chosen defense you have. roach/queen, roach/hydra, spine colonies, and zerglings are all very acceptable and powerful defenses. You must have made baneling nest before you see it coming. The counter: Send 2 lings instead of all. If both goes banelings then it is just stupid, a small mistake makes you instant lose. Roaches are not THAT slow. If you havent built roach warren before you see them coming then you wont have time to set one up. Maybe you only play the biggest maps.. I still see no defenders advantage. You can place your baneling anywhere and it is still as effective. I'd just ignore any spine crawler and walk to other side of base. And if you build too many you waste alot of resources if he doesnt attack. The point is: I feel that it is very random who wins. | ||
rauk
United States2228 Posts
On July 31 2010 18:30 MythicalMage wrote: Damnit all, mentioning a korean game. But that's speed reapers in a completely different style. That's more similar to LzGamer's style these days with continuous reaper production to secure an expo, if it's anything like what I'm thinking of. Anyhow, that comes a bit later and you have speed and you have a lot of reapers. So, the zerg would have speed and a queen, but yeah that can be rather effective. At that point, it almost stops being harass, and becomes early pressure. yeah but the point is speed reapers in general can't be held off by queens or speedlings alone. | ||
MythicalMage
1360 Posts
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