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Last night I was playing a ZvT on Metalopolis. I scout on 9 and see a barracks and some gas going down, and I stick around long enough to see a tech lab before he takes out my drone. Pretty simple, I assume marauders are coming out. So I grab my FE while making some Zerglings to defend against any possible super early marauder
And all of a sudden three reapers come out. Well I kill two of them with a queen and speedlings, but then more reapers just start being pumped into my base. He takes out my active creep tumor and I'm pumping speedlings as hard as I can trying just to stay alive against the rush, and the only other tech structure I have this early is a baneling next, which doesn't really help me, I was preparing to Muta/Zling/Bling
Soon enough I've got a ton of zerglings, but he has so many reapers at this point that he can pop around and take something out, and when my zerglings get in place, he just retreats or jumps down a cliff. Since I've got 2 bases, he can pretty easily jump down the cliff and attack the natural or jump back up and attack the main.
It ends with a fairly quick gg, and we talked about it later and the closest we could come to figuring out a solution was roaches to stay alive into mutas. I was wondering if we have any experience doing that or any experience fighting it in other ways.
Here are my thoughts on the matter in general. The problems: 1: Early scouting is almost useless on this build. There is no visual difference in the build between Marauders and Reapers early on. 2: While roaches could shut down reapers, Marauders are already set up, where Zerg would have to invest into Roaches. 3: Reapers can run away from speedlings off creep. If they're near enough to the base, they can take out creep tumors while they're building.
Possible solutions: 1: If roaches can hold off the reapers long enough to tech to mutas, all the marauders in the world won't matter if Zerg has mutas, and Terran then has no AA 2: Hydralisks? On creep they wouldn't be able to chase down kiting reapers, and the reapers would get bonus damage, however the hydras do probably enough damage that in equal numbers or even slightly inferior numbers they would fare well. 3: The build is exceptionally micro-heavy to be effective, and follow up for the Terran could be very difficult, so if Zerg can simply survive they should be in a better position in terms of Macro.
Essentially, it's a very difficult strategy to pull off. However, I'm also fairly clueless about how to fight it. Do we have ideas on how to fight it, how to counter the counters, what to watch out for, etc?
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Counter with speedling baneling bust keeping 8ish lings back to keep his reapers busy. If he's pumping reapers he probably isn't doing a hole lot else. It seems VERY all in to me.
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It's hard to comment without a replay since I can't actually see how you reacted. But based on what you are saying here:
Reapers can't runaway from speedlings off creep last time I checked. Also, you don't need to pump like 10 roaches. Get a handful maybe 4 or 5 to just stay alive.
How were you grouping your Zerglings? Were they all in one group or did you have a group to get below the cliff and one above?
As for your solutions, especially on 3, what other choice do you ever have? Zerg's early game plan is really just various versions of survive. As for hydras they seem viable and they outrange reapers and make short work of them, but why change your plan completely.
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I hadn't even thought of that.
With the Reaper anti-buildings, would 8 be enough to defend against the 6+ reapers to buy enough defense to actually make the baneling bust worth it? Also... I don't know, I feel that's also super-all in from my part to respond, since once he had enough reapers he could just smash pretty much the entirety of my economy and base
EDIT: Yeah, I don't have a replay right now since I'm at work, and I was just thinking about it pretty much since I lost. My zerglings were in 1 group and just chasing the reapers, which probably wasn't so great. I actually had played against the player before and he had attempted the same thing and I had managed to hold it off with breaking zerglings and banelings up, but it was a lot less refined the first time and he had only maybe 4 max, he didn't reinforce with more reapers. This time once he had me on the defensive he just powered unreasonable amounts of reapers.
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On August 06 2010 00:55 Chex wrote: It's hard to comment without a replay since I can't actually see how you reacted. But based on what you are saying here:
Reapers can't runaway from speedlings off creep last time I checked. Also, you don't need to pump like 10 roaches. Get a handful maybe 4 or 5 to just stay alive.
How were you grouping your Zerglings? Were they all in one group or did you have a group to get below the cliff and one above?
As for your solutions, especially on 3, what other choice do you ever have? Zerg's early game plan is really just various versions of survive. As for hydras they seem viable and they outrange reapers and make short work of them, but why change your plan completely.
I don't know what game you're playing, but last time I checked reapers with nitro move the same speed as speedlings. Off creep that is.
There's already a huge thread about this. Don't make another...
To sum the other thread up, there is no great way to counter this. Could try Sen's 1 base muta, if you can hold off the reapers with crawlers / queens / lings.
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Oh sorry, I briefly looked for another thread on it since I assumed it would be there, but I didn't see one.
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First, why is it the "Lz" build? Second, here.
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The thing i dont think that replay is an example of the "lz reaper build", thats the build where he chucks down a ridiculous number of tech lab rax and pumps out alot of reapers.... (5+ going at the same time early). Ive played with the build a fair few times and between me and my friend we've concluded that you HAVE to get roaches or its just gg, when you have about 6+ reapers you need over 12 lings to even HIT the reapers (they take them out in like 2 volleys or so), Also whats more devastating is they can take out any zerg tech structure in 3-4 volleys.... and losing a spawning pool is instant gg as well.
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How did the terran kill your scout? Also u could just scout with an ovie at the time a marauder is suppose to pop out and if one doesn't u know it's reapers
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On August 06 2010 01:16 Saracen wrote:First, why is it the "Lz" build? Second, here. because he appears to have popularised it, as shown in the thread you linked!
btw I wouldn't list hydralisks as a possible solution, they're light and therefore a pretty dire choice vs reapers
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I'd really like to see this replay as well. I think you'd need to invest in more static defenses and rush to mutas. Keep your speedlings back and spread out and counterattack whenever he tries to move in on a spinecrawler. Or just get roaches. Obviously if he switches to putting out marauders he'll have strength against your roaches, but you can easily create a good mix of lings/roaches, and if you're still teching to Mutas, he's going to need to invest in marines or some other advanced tech structure. That kind of reaper production requires a LOT of barracks (all with tech labs), so his factory/starport tech should be slowed a lot more than he'd like. He'll probably switch to producing a lot of marines and your roach/ling/banelings can handle that.
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On August 06 2010 01:33 setanta wrote:because he appears to have popularised it, as shown in the thread you linked! Maybe on the US server... Naming builds after people has always bothered me, though.
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On August 06 2010 01:33 setanta wrote:because he appears to have popularised it, as shown in the thread you linked!
I think he saw Korean Ts doing it before he actually "popularised" it on US servers. I still remember seeing Ensnare vs Cool where ensnare is killing roaches with reapers. Cool did win that game though so maybe look through the WTA vods.
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its 3rax reaper, basically.
slush scouted it by sac'ing an OL early. that's probably the best thing to do if you scout barracks/tech lab straight off. LZ didn't pop down additional rax until like.. 18 or 20 food if i recall.
i agree it's hard to scout.
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I think he created it in a lucid dream, so what? :D but yeah "[name] build" labelling is pretty stupid, even though it was commonplace in BW
for the OP all I can really offer is suggesting to practice the fast gas 1 base muta style. Defending 1 base from reapers is infinitely easier than 2, and with the fast mutas you don't have to weather the harass for too long, although chasing down reapers with speed is pretty tedious. It's a really safe way to get into the mid-game with a strong economy
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How does rushing to speed banelings work against this?
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I don't think 14 hatch 14 pool is a good start on majority of the maps. It's too fragile to a rush. I need a safer opening.
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On August 06 2010 01:52 SixSongs wrote:I don't think 14 hatch 14 pool is a good start on majority of the maps. It's too fragile to a rush. I need a safer opening.
Then just do 1 base Roach and position the Roaches like how Slush did?
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Slush beat it with well positioned roaches on Lost temple against Lz in the Root/EG clanwar.
Micro well to avoid losing drones to first 1-2 reapers. Get a few (read: don't commit) to roaches and expand carefully. The trick is to position the roaches well so that you get a shot off while reapers are leaping up the cliffs. Reapers are very fragile and die in 4 shots to roaches. I'd start speedling research because typically a marauder hit follows. I'd sac an overlord to decide whether or not to get lair tech for cloaked banshees/etc.
If he does come into your base with 4-5 reapers, micro the queen and roach. Surround with drones if he heads towards your mineral line. Otherwise He can't stay in your base against 3 roaches and a queen.
Edit: who makes marauder first? you can literally keep a zergling in front of his base and be prepared for it by the time marauders reach your base.
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Send your overlord over his barracks 40 seconds after the tech lab finishes and you can scout if reapers pop out first. You should be able to scout twice off of one overlord since he at most has 1 marine.
You don't have to FE, just build the 2nd hatchery in your base if you don't think you can defend an expansion against this rush. The expansion isn't 'needed' until you are approaching 30 drones.
If you hit lair and your econ is in good order build an infestation pit and fungal growth the reaper ball and kill it He'll transition into MMM almost for sure at that point and infestors are still useful against that army. You can try muta but he'll just pop a ton of marines and a couple towers if he is any good and the mutas won't be all that useful and they come out slower than the infestors.
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On August 06 2010 01:56 willeesmalls wrote: Slush beat it with well positioned roaches on Lost temple against Lz in the Root/EG clanwar.
Micro well to avoid losing drones to first 1-2 reapers. Get a few (read: don't commit) to roaches and expand carefully. The trick is to position the roaches well so that you get a shot off while reapers are leaping up the cliffs. Reapers are very fragile and die in 4 shots to roaches. I'd start speedling research because typically a marauder hit follows. I'd sac an overlord to decide whether or not to get lair tech for cloaked banshees/etc.
If he does come into your base with 4-5 reapers, micro the queen and roach. Surround with drones if he heads towards your mineral line. Otherwise He can't stay in your base against 3 roaches and a queen.
Edit: who makes marauder first? you can literally keep a zergling in front of his base and be prepared for it by the time marauders reach your base.
That game just showed that the Terran player was too afraid to try and it was pretty late reapers. He could have run past 1 roach and kill lots of drones before the 2 others arrived. When the 2 roachs arrive he could escape due to high speed difference and cliff. It's possible to kite roaches aswell.
You cant surround reapers with drones because he doesnt run INTO the mineral line. Behind or at the side. Even if you try to surround the drones just glide away :p
However the rush was successfull in 1 way: The zerg player used lots of resources on crawler + roaches.
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I would think reapers would be pretty easy to counter as Zerg. If you see the fast tech lab, its safe to assume reapers (no T ever gets fast mauds vs Zerg, slings are just too good against them). Use overlords to spot the approaches to you base. If you're scouting correctly, you shouldn't be supprised by the reapers (or any T push). as long as you have a handful of slings and a queen, you should be a-ok. Throw down a spine crawler if your concerned that the reapers are too much for your slings to handle. Speedlings should be all you need though...
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Idra's does the gas first pool second into speedlings and then expands. It seems really safe and economy wise, zerg always pushes ahead. I think that going reapers is too much of an investment early game that can transition well but leaves you vulnerable for a counter attack. I know , as a terran myself, that unless I scout expand before pool, I prefer hellion/marine pressure with the occasional bunker to be that much more effective because I remain in the macro game.
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I just fast creep tumor in my base and make a fuckton of speedlings. They are pretty easy to surround actually. also nice you have some on the lower ground when they jump off for an easy surround.
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I really don't understand the problem. Speedlings > Reapers on creep. All your buildings and units are on creep. Overlords are hanging around the base, meaning zerglings will be waiting for the reapers when they get try to come in, and reapers die FAST.
Both of the replays in the other thread show pool->hatch builds, which are obviously going to be terrible against reapers. Much QQ about nothing, imo.
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