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To people who say you can just wall off with gate/core, I included 2 replays.
Introduction
I know what you're thinking. "This guy's actually going to write a guide on 2 gate? lol" Of course, 2 gate is one of the most basic build that any babytoss will use. However, how well can you execute it?
I could not find any guides associated with 10/10 2gate in pvp in liquidpedia nor in the teamliquid sc2 strategy section, so here's mine, probably extra useful for bronze-silver-gold-platinum players.
First of all, I want to say: 2 gate works. I'm a 500+ diamond protoss player, and 10/10 gate rarely fail me. For those who make "OMG YOU'LL NEVER BE BETTER IF YOU CHEESE" comment, probably while furiously making love to your giant ego, I say fine. Whatever you say, 2 gate is a strong, easy, fun build that's great for both beginners and experts(yes I said it) It WILL help you get better if you learn how to execute this build correctly.
Of course, there's a lot of variation on the 2 gate build - but I'm going to talk about my favorite variation - 10/10 gate super aggression.
The build** (for beginners, 9 pylon means build a pylon when your food is 9)
- constant probe production
- 10 pylon, send 1 probe to scout (do not use any chronoboost on nexus!) **edited according to suggestions.. 10 pylon does seem better than 9pylon.
- 10 stop producing more probes, build 2 gates as mineral allows. After building
gateway, use the same probe to check around main for hidden buildings until the mineral reaches 150. Build gates so that one zealot could completely seal off your ramp.
Your choke should look something like this.
- after building 2 gate, build only 2 more probes ( you can pretty much queue them).
- When the gate finishes, your food should be 12.
- as soon as gate finishes, build 1 zealot and cronoboost.
- queue another zealot on this gate when you have enough minerals.
- If you did everything correctly, when the first zealot finishes, the cronoboost and 2nd gate will be finished. Build 2nd and 3rd zealot and chronoboost on both gateways.
Usually you'll be tearing up a little at this point because of its beauty, but try to focus.
- build a pylon (your food will be 18/18 at this point) asap, and you can resume probe production.
- Constant zealot production. Micro and win!
Probe scouting: Your enemy will be scouting you around the time when you are about to build your second gateway.
o hai. I'm your friendly enemy scout pro.. OH GOD
- I see a gateway warping, and he's taking gas.
+ Show Spoiler +Keep scouting. If he goes for the cyber core, you're almost guaranteed a win. If he follows you with another gate, it's going to be little be tougher. However, he probably spent the chronoboost on nexus, and spent money on gas. Micro well, and you still have a good chance. You'll probably see them matching your gateway in mid-low diamond levels.
- I see him putting down 2 gateways while choroboosting his nexus..
+ Show Spoiler +Uh oh. If you let this continue on longer, he'll have better economy than you. However, you still have the initial army advantage - you'll need to focus hard on micro.try to harrass his probe line, or destroy his vital pylons. If you play your cards well, in most cases you'll be able to be at least even with him. You can choose to build extra gateways with your money and be even more aggressive, or tech up while produing probes.
- I see...nothing.
+ Show Spoiler +I see... Nada. If you checked your main after you build your first gate and there were no hidden buildings, it probably means he's going for a proxy gate. Fear not, since 10/10 build is quite strong against proxy 2 gate! Send your scout probe near you main to search for the proxy gateways, and just keep building zealots while chronoboosting them. Important thing is to send your first zealot to enemy main (he'll have only probes to defend it), and take advantage of the choke you made with the gateway. Just keep buying time - your first zealot will do a lot of damage to his economy. If needed, pull some probes to help. Eventually you'll pull ahead, then go ahead and destroy his proxy.
- Uh.. he's now building a forge.
+ Show Spoiler +He will be building a cannon near the ramp wall or near his nexus. He will probably defend your first wave. try to run pass his main choke if possible and harass probes. Produce zealots on one gate and then take your natural (He just spend 300 minerals on forge/cannon if not more on stationary defense). If it's a map with a back-expo (like delta quadrant) and he's smart, he will probably take the expo since then his cannons won't be wasted - you can tech up quickly instead of taking the natural to take advantage of this.
- I see him putting down three gates.
+ Show Spoiler +He's a fool. Engage asap.
- Hey! he's doing the 10/10 gate build!
+ Show Spoiler +A good way to counter this build is to immediately pull your hands away from the keyboard and the mouse, and place your back on the ground. Proceed to roll around while laughing.
So.. I got my zealots out. what do I do next?
Your key timing is when your 2nd and 3rd zealot reach the enemy base. He'll probably have one or two zealots out at this time. Engage asap - they'll probably run away, terrified by the manliness of your man-lots. Threaten them by attacking the pylon powering the gateways. Touched by your efforts, the cowards will return.
Micro your zealots by pulling back the hurt ones - It's a very good idea to have show units status bars in options as always.
Have this on.
You sacrificed a lot of economy doing this build (he's probably about 5 probe ahead). Sure you could go for the probes, but probes can fight back, teamed up with their zealots. Pylons are great targets in this regard - zealots destroy them pretty quickly. When they are destroyed, they will unpower the gateways if you're lucky. Even if there's a second pylon, you sabotaged their supplies, and you'll be able to out-produce them.
If you're against stalkers, just have one zealot per stalker (they're a lot more efficient than stalkers) and send the rest to the mineral line or lone pylon powering the gates. Unless he's starcraft god, he'll have a hard time microing both stalker and the probes while producing units. If you see a complete wall-in, attack the pylons first.
If they pull of probes to fight your zealots, just run away from them and buy time - more time his probe spend time off mineral, more advantage for you. (most of the time you can just engagage them anyway.
Build strength/weaknesses:
This build is very strong against proxy 2gate and early cyber core build, which are quite common. Of course, this build is a lot more powerful in maps with short rush distances. Surprisingly, it seems more powerful in 4 player maps since rush distances are usually shorter than 2 player maps ( and higher chance that they won't scout you in time).
This build could potentially be weak against slow 2 gate, since He'll have better economy. However, it all comes down to micro.
Some replays
Now go out there and try this build out!
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It is also good to note rush distances, and chokes. The longer the rush distance, the less effective this will be. Speed and suprise seems to be key to this build. On maps like lost temple, sometimes, you can afford to build your gateways slightly past your natural, allowing you to secure a wall off of your main and natural, giving you the opportunity to expand if the rush fails to win in and of itself.
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You're very right - can't believe I forgot to mention that. I'll edit that right now. However, since this is an all-in build, if you fail initially, you'll probably need to hold off a counter attack at ramp anyway.
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nice guide. I don't really consider this cheese so much. Proxy is cheese, so is cannon rush, but this is no more cheese than voids (in your base) or DT's. Which are just different units.
Edit: I assume this build works against zergs too. Can you include that too? (I doubt it will get any terrans that wall off.
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If you are going gate/core -> chrono boost first stalker like I do and scout this build, it isnt too hard to win. If you almost blocked your ramp in the same way written in the guide, just start warping in a pylon to finish off the wall.
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ugh. I hate PvP, because I really don't find doing this kind of crap fun at all. But the alternatives are pretty much longer versions of the same crap. makes me want to play a different game instead.
nice guide. will be great to lose to even more n00bs in pvp.
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that second pylon seems super late. delaying the next two zealots by 25 seconds means that if you get an early edge, you cant just shut it out with more zealots, right? maybe i'm missing something about the timing.
edit: oops i'm an idiot. apparently you can build 2 zealots and a pylon at the EXACT SAME TIME!!
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On August 18 2010 11:43 jrkirby wrote: nice guide. I don't really consider this cheese so much. Proxy is cheese, so is cannon rush, but this is no more cheese than voids (in your base) or DT's. Which are just different units.
Edit: I assume this build works against zergs too. Can you include that too? (I doubt it will get any terrans that wall off. Of course, this build works against zerg too - but seem to be weak if zerg place a spine crawler or two then tech to roach quickly. However, it will CRUSH a FE zerg.
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This just works, i think ive only lost 2 matches where i have done this, its just awesome especially since everyone wants to go 4gate nowadays
Thumbs up for this.
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On August 18 2010 11:47 Three wrote: If you are going gate/core -> chrono boost first stalker like I do and scout this build, it isnt too hard to win. If you almost blocked your ramp in the same way written in the guide, just start warping in a pylon to finish off the wall. I think you're basing this on normal 12/13 gateways - this build not only have early gateways but also chronoboost saved for zealots. In my experience when 1 stalker comes out (even with chrono) I'll have 3 zealots whacking away at your choke before your first stalker gets out. I usually just attack the pylon and you're forced to build more pylons to keep walling in - and you're supply blocked while this is happening. Stalkers actually take AGES to kill a zealot. Even if you hold it off, I start with significant advantage. I have never lost against a stalker build with this build. Hmm. I should probably add this to the guide..
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On August 18 2010 11:54 gods_basement wrote: that second pylon seems super late. delaying the next two zealots by 25 seconds means that if you get an early edge, you cant just shut it out with more zealots, right? maybe i'm missing something about the timing. If you do this build right, you won't get supply blocked at all. Watch the first replay included. That's what I love about this build - everything will click in perfectly if you do it right.
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I've do this like all the time vs zerg and never vs toss. I know you say this is very strong against early cyb stalker but I just have a hard time believing that because I rush for stalkers as quickly as possible when I see two gate. I try to delay his rush using probes and my own zealot blocking until I can get two stalkers out because stalkers micro circles around zealots. I dont doubt this works but i think timing has a very important factor in this build.
Edit: Watched the replay vs 2gate and didn't make a strong case for the build (no offense). I still see a timing there against stalkers where you could do this but its slim and you need short rush distances.
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On August 18 2010 12:05 AimlessKitty wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2010 11:47 Three wrote: If you are going gate/core -> chrono boost first stalker like I do and scout this build, it isnt too hard to win. If you almost blocked your ramp in the same way written in the guide, just start warping in a pylon to finish off the wall. I think you're basing this on normal 12/13 gateways - this build not only have early gateways but also chronoboost saved for zealots. In my experience when 1 stalker comes out (even with chrono) I'll have 3 zealots whacking away at your choke before your first stalker gets out. I usually just attack the pylon and you're forced to build more pylons to keep walling in - and you're supply blocked while this is happening. Stalkers actually take AGES to kill a zealot. Even if you hold it off, I start with significant advantage. I have never lost against a stalker build with this build. Hmm. I should probably add this to the guide..
No I'm talking about 10 gate, assuming your wall is build soundly so that tons of zealots cant hit the pylon. I don't mean chrono boost the stalker when zealots get to your front, I mean from the start. Chrono boost the next stalker or sentry as well. And you shouldnt be supply blocked if you don't spend 50 researching warp gates yet.
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On August 18 2010 12:12 EyMiller245 wrote: I've do this like all the time vs zerg and never vs toss. I know you say this is very strong against early cyb stalker but I just have a hard time believing that because I rush for stalkers as quickly as possible when I see two gate. I try to delay his rush using probes and my own zealot blocking until I can get two stalkers out because stalkers micro circles around zealots. I dont doubt this works but i think timing has a very important factor in this build.
Edit: Watched the replay vs 2gate and didn't make a strong case for the build (no offense). I still see a timing there against stalkers where you could do this but its slim and you need short rush distances. of course, people try to micro stalkers but there's a limit - i just have one zealot following stalker and rest going after mineral lines and pylons - you'll essentially have 2~3 zealots for every stalkers (remember, I'm chrono boosting gateways too)
If you completely wall yourself in, and somehow I'm not able to hold it, I can always tech to stalkers fairly quickly. Remember, you have to destroy your own buildings to come out. I can always safely tech or expo without much trouble (I usually tech because of void rays)
Maybe it's because of me playing at 500 diamond level? maybe it's less viable in high level. I never lost against any stalker build with this build(i've been using it since plat) even if I don't win instantly, I start with great advantage.
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On August 18 2010 12:43 AimlessKitty wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2010 12:12 EyMiller245 wrote: I've do this like all the time vs zerg and never vs toss. I know you say this is very strong against early cyb stalker but I just have a hard time believing that because I rush for stalkers as quickly as possible when I see two gate. I try to delay his rush using probes and my own zealot blocking until I can get two stalkers out because stalkers micro circles around zealots. I dont doubt this works but i think timing has a very important factor in this build.
Edit: Watched the replay vs 2gate and didn't make a strong case for the build (no offense). I still see a timing there against stalkers where you could do this but its slim and you need short rush distances. of course, people try to micro stalkers but there's a limit - i just have one zealot following stalker and rest going after mineral lines and pylons - you'll essentially have 2~3 zealots for every stalkers (remember, I'm chrono boosting gateways too) If you completely wall yourself in, and somehow I'm not able to hold it, I can always tech to stalkers fairly quickly. Remember, you have to destroy your own buildings to come out. I can always safely tech or expo without much trouble ( i usually tech) Maybe it's because of me playing at 500 diamond level? maybe it's less viable in high level. I never lost against any stalker build with this build(i've been using it since plat) even if I don't win instantly, I start with great advantage.
If you watch the replays you win against fast stalker, all of them will probably be researching warp gates when they shouldnt be. And you should not be able to out-tech the player going gate->core with a gas 2 minutes earlier than you, or outexpand them. They can push out whenever they want with blink or just killing a lone pylon.
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10pylon 10gate is more efficient than 9p 10g.
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I probably suck, but I attacked when I had 3 zealots against a zerg, roach warren was up, his roaches killed my zealots, and I just left because I felt that he had the upperhand after my second line of zealots fell.
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Step 10 is harder than is sounds.
Btw, in some circumstances you can go gateway gas forge cyber (pylon? somewhere) gate against this build, and completely wall off a cannon by your nexus. After which going for a 4 warp gate attack with +1 ups and/or charge is viable.
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if you're going to 10gate you should 100% 10pylon every time.
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I haven't tried the build yet but I'm curious about some of its weaknesses
It can be scouted very early so if the other player were to respond by just dropping another gateway and matching you in number from that point on aren't you only setting yourself back? I'm around 750 diamond and most of the people I play know you have to match 2 gate with 2 gate that early on. So I'm worried if I'd just be playing at in inherent disadvantage or would I just be forcing the micro battle?
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I use this build all the time, it works really well. Thanks for adding what it's good against, because I sometimes back off if I see three gates...
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On August 19 2010 01:55 Miraqle wrote: I haven't tried the build yet but I'm curious about some of its weaknesses
It can be scouted very early so if the other player were to respond by just dropping another gateway and matching you in number from that point on aren't you only setting yourself back? I'm around 750 diamond and most of the people I play know you have to match 2 gate with 2 gate that early on. So I'm worried if I'd just be playing at in inherent disadvantage or would I just be forcing the micro battle? From my experience, most of the time when you get scouted (could be even later in 4 player maps) they already have thrown down gas and used up all chronoboost (probably 2) so you have a slight advantage there. Even If they followed gate, you had such an early gateway(with saved chrono), you'll have 3 zealots when he has 1~2(key timing). Also, he probably have been using chronoboost on the nexus, meaning that you can match his zealots at main base from your gates. as long as you play right, I wouldn't say you'll be at a definite disadvantage.
Like I said, it comes down to micro and quick decisionmaking - but you're on a time constraint here.
I've been meaning to have more replays against these counter-2gate, but I kept getting matched with terran/zerg yesterday..
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On August 18 2010 14:07 Chronopolis wrote: Step 10 is harder than is sounds.
Btw, in some circumstances you can go gateway gas forge cyber (pylon? somewhere) gate against this build, and completely wall off a cannon by your nexus. After which going for a 4 warp gate attack with +1 ups and/or charge is viable.
Cannon can defend it, but you're still spending 150(arguably 300 with forge) minerals. Most of the time you can get even by chronoboosting your nexus and focus on teching(if you were constantly producing probes with spare minerals while pumping 2 gate zealots, it's not that difficult to catch up tech wise. you spent 150+alpha minerals on cannon after all) you might be behind few probes, but in my experience it just becomes a "normal" mid-game.
Cannon can very well defend against this 2 gate, but not necessarily a definite counter in experience. (Then again, I didn't fight against many cannons.. i just had about 3 games) I usually have more hard time against 12-13gate with chronoboost.
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Like others said 10p 10g is strictly better but that doesnt matter that much.
About the build: i'm not really a fan of hyperaggressive strats (that aren't the warpgate strat) because against a good simcity player it will put you behind imo. Against good players who happened to have build at the ramp this build just puts you at a disadvantage in my experience. With gateway + cyber or gateway + gateway you can like you describe leave only 1 zealot hole in your entrance. If you have 2 zealots vs 1 zealot in this entrance he can just trade and proceed to fill up his entrance with another gate for example. A stalker behind the closed off entrance and your rush is stopped, closing yourself in in the mirror isn't that bad actually as there are still plenty of ways to be aggresive then.
If you are going to doublegate at 10 you need to proxy imo. The proxy takes off CRUCIAL seconds of this rush time AND means your building probe can scout quicker so your scouting probe can block buildings he is trying to close his choke with so you got a open entrance. You are forced to be hyperaggresive anyway with a build that butchers your own economy so why not go all-in with proxy then?? It's not like a scouted proxy is the end of the world in PvP it's not as if he can kill your probe.
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10/10 gate is cheese. The reason it is a cheesy build is that the initial push is an allin. If the push does not do significant damage you will lose an overwhelming majority of your games.
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On August 19 2010 03:26 Markwerf wrote: Like others said 10p 10g is strictly better but that doesnt matter that much.
About the build: i'm not really a fan of hyperaggressive strats (that aren't the warpgate strat) because against a good simcity player it will put you behind imo. Against good players who happened to have build at the ramp this build just puts you at a disadvantage in my experience. With gateway + cyber or gateway + gateway you can like you describe leave only 1 zealot hole in your entrance. If you have 2 zealots vs 1 zealot in this entrance he can just trade and proceed to fill up his entrance with another gate for example. A stalker behind the closed off entrance and your rush is stopped, closing yourself in in the mirror isn't that bad actually as there are still plenty of ways to be aggresive then.
If you are going to doublegate at 10 you need to proxy imo. The proxy takes off CRUCIAL seconds of this rush time AND means your building probe can scout quicker so your scouting probe can block buildings he is trying to close his choke with so you got a open entrance. You are forced to be hyperaggresive anyway with a build that butchers your own economy so why not go all-in with proxy then?? It's not like a scouted proxy is the end of the world in PvP it's not as if he can kill your probe.
Definitely can be done as a proxy, but I just personally prefer building at ramp so I can have advantage over proxy gateway. I just have horrible, horrible memories about base trades, which I often discuss with my psychiatrist.
as of "2 zealots vs 1 zealot" situation, if you do the build correctly i'll have 3 zealots out, which can make a difference against pylons ( or run-bys after first zealot falls)
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On August 19 2010 03:31 Sha[DoW] wrote: 10/10 gate is cheese. The reason it is a cheesy build is that the initial push is an allin. If the push does not do significant damage you will lose an overwhelming majority of your games.
Of course, it's a very all-in-ish build. But, good card to have in your sleeve nonetheless (especially 4 player maps)
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Really, if you can build more zealots than your opponent in PvP, you can win. It may take some funky micro at the ramp to prevent forcefields, but it's almost impossible to lose if you a ton of zealots.
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Just tried this out and it was almost too easy of a win. >
It was PvP and I scouted my opponent getting early gas so I assumed he would be getting an early cybernetics as well - I was correct when I returned with my 6 zealots and reinforcements on the way. He had a stalker, a sentry, and a maybe a couple zealots which I handled fairly easily (except for that damn stalker he kept micro-ing.) Went for the pylons and shut down his unit production quickly then I went after the probes and he gg-ed out.
This build feels kinda cheap/cheesy - a win is a win though. Another build to add to my arsenal.
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Sure two gating is fun, but it makes huge macro wars less likely
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I'm sorry, but for someone to write a guide on 10 gate and not chrono probes 8-10, 10 pylon, and 2 gates on 10 just blows my mind.
9 pylon into 10 gate is a HUGE disadvantage because: Your 10:th probe will be delayed At 10 supply, you will have to wait for minerals to build gate, while having smaller probe count up to this point
if you chrono probes 1 time as soon as you have the energy and put down a pylon on 10, the second the plyon pops you will have 150 minerals.
I do it like this: Probes up to 10, chrono with first 25 energy. Pylon on 10. 2 gates on 10. Probes to 12. Pylon on 12.(no this does not delay your zealot, you will have exactly 100 minerals when your gateway pops) Spam zealots from both gates while chronoboosting.
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I have more fun 2-Gating (thus preventing that stupid 4-Warp Gate mass Zealot crap) and then transitioning out of it, than I do anything else. Gives you a decent advantage when you force your opponent to go on the defensive and they don't know when its safe to put down their Core.
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have fun being behind VS my 1 gate fast stalker wall off 4 warpgate counter.
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On August 18 2010 11:20 AimlessKitty wrote:
[*]Constant zealot production. Micro and win!
THIS WHOLE THREAD, simply can be quote like the following.
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What is the counter to this? I HATE PvP for the simple fact that it seems the one with more zealots win. Who cares if there is a stalker on the field, when you can just send 1 zealot after it, while the rest rapes his base/min line?
So, yes, I am whining this build seems too strong :p too many use it, and it is the most boring setup in all of StarCraft II, IMO. If you find trouble against a build, please tell me, so I can start using it. PvP just rarely gets past zealot spam, which I find incredibly boring.
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i know this is intended more for beginners but yeah it's pretty easily stopped once opponent scouts by throwing down their own 2nd gate. and i know you touched on that but yeah you're at an absolutely huge econ disadvantage after that, one you won't come back from. so you might as well pull your probes and send them for the attack also. i use to 2gate on 12/13 to counter the super fast 4gate-zlot-pyloninbase-warpin strats. and i beat a lot of (4gatezlotwarping)toss like that. but realistically you only counter them if they're crazy enough to stick to their warpin strat after seeing the 2gate(many are). currently, i start with the plan of 4gate zlot warpin opening(i gave in). it's actually a very flexible build itself. and even at 700 diamond level a lot of people don't know to defend it... though to be fair you can't afford many, or any mistakes against it. oh, and another effective thing against a 2gater is to completely wall the ramp(with gates,core, or forge-not pylon). buys quite a lot of time and is highly underutilized at the moment.
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On August 19 2010 20:00 Spoiz wrote: What is the counter to this? I HATE PvP for the simple fact that it seems the one with more zealots win. Who cares if there is a stalker on the field, when you can just send 1 zealot after it, while the rest rapes his base/min line?
So, yes, I am whining this build seems too strong :p too many use it, and it is the most boring setup in all of StarCraft II, IMO. If you find trouble against a build, please tell me, so I can start using it. PvP just rarely gets past zealot spam, which I find incredibly boring.
do you have your ramp walled with 1 spot for a zlot to fit in? after you have that you can make a forge and a cannon or two, and tech to units that destroy mass zlots
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though collo/gate v collo/gate compositions are pretty boring too
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If I scout 2 gate I just match his gateway numbers and don't take gas. This has never failed me unless my micro was horribly bad and his one good.
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oh, and another effective thing against a 2gater is to completely wall the ramp(with gates,core, or forge-not pylon). buys quite a lot of time and is highly underutilized at the moment.
exactly; NEVER put your pylon in a position where it can be hit, you have to wall of with gate/core or gate/gate; I do exactly the same right now, when I spot 2 early gates I wall of with my core completely, get my second gate rather early (cut probes when needed) and chrono-boost out stalkers; I don't know if it's theoretically possible theory-craft-wise but my opponents usually despair when they see the complete wall-off without a pylon to start hacking on; rest of the game is easy; I add early twilight-council for blink and two more gates as soon as affordable and own him
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I find that stopping a 2gate 10/10 is fairly simple. Basically i will do a normal 1 gate at 10 or 12 and scout with your first pylon probe. Once you see that he's 2 gatting throw down a second gate(build near your ramp so you can block with 1 zealot) Possibly you can even have your guys hold possition where when he comes up you can have 2 zealots vs 1 so you can defend a lot easier(2v1 meaning at the end of your choak have 2 guys standing next to each other blocking the exit instead of inbetween your buildings). Basically you tech slightly slower while making as many zealots as you can/need to defend while teching slowly to a sentry(if your losing lots of zealots) or a stalker(which will help you defend your choak a lot easier). Once you have a proper defense(adding sentries when needed) you can easily tech to collosus or whatever you decide to do and with a much better economy since you'll be building probes when you can, you should have no problem with winning.
600+ diamond -
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pretty gay build to go up against if you're on a 4 player map and you scout it last... and building the pylon at 10 is much better for this build order.
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On a 4-player map, if you scout the near positions first and you scout 2 gate, even if you already threw down an assimilator, the rush distance should be far enough for you to get your 2nd gate, pull all probes off gas, survive and have the econ advantage.
On PvP, I just assume 2 gate until I scout that it is not 2 gate.
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As well as on a 4 player map you should stop at the watch towers as you scout to see any proxy double gatting since on a 4 player map some toss will do this to ensure a shorter walk time.
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I've had some success with this build against low Diamonds and some mid Diamonds. There is definitely a learning curve in dealing with the 2-gate and some players have it figured out, and some don't. Lately though the toss players I've gone up against have scouted it well and reacted appropriately. They've probably been 2-gated enough to finally figure out how to stop it. I really don't think its viable against a solid toss players who is ready for it. They seem to end up further ahead of me and I've typically had a very hard time coming back. I just can't bring myself to open 2-gate anymore knowing that I'll likely lose if my opponent is good. It certainly worked wonders in Platinum though.
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I was there was a method on TL to like a guide or post, or have them archived somewhere, this is great. The more informative/funny guides on quick strategies (cheeses?) we have the more people understand it and it expands the game.
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On August 20 2010 00:42 l90 Proof wrote: I was there was a method on TL to like a guide or post, or have them archived somewhere, this is great. The more informative/funny guides on quick strategies (cheeses?) we have the more people understand it and it expands the game.
There is a way to archive a guide! It's called liquipedia. I put up a first draft here: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/10/10_Gate_(vs._Protoss)
This is my first liquipedia addition, so I hope I haven't offended the gods that be, but I figured I'd follow wikpedia's rule and be bold.
Edit: Please feel free to add anything (like fixing formatting or adding the 10 Pylon version of the build).
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after experimenting 10 pylon is definitely better. Edited the guide as such. However I think people are putting this build off too much without trying them out.. People don't usually build gateway near ramp nowadays b/c it's harder to defend the ramp with stuff blocking your way. Also, there's a factor in 4 players maps that you'll get scouted at least 2nd time.. (it's 2/3 probability by the way) It's like saying "You can just stop bunker rush by going 9 pool.. bunker rush is a terrible build!" It's all situational. That's why it's called all-in. It's still a good build to do in low levels since it's easy to remember and do. lol I don't know why I have to defend his build so much.
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IMO this is pretty much an all-in build, so why not just proxy your gates? It increases the effectiveness of the build a ton, and there's really no way for them to stop your proxy gates from going up.
And while this build may seem to be more viable on 2-player maps, it is actually more effective on 4-player maps, particularly if you proxy. This is due to how you have to scout this build early, before you throw down your gas or core. On 2-player maps where your opponent scouts with his 9 pylon probe, they can easily spot the 2 early gates and just toss down another gate before gas, and at that point you're already fighting an uphill battle. But on 4-player maps due to them not knowing where you they may not be able to scout you before they have to commit to going standard gas into core and your chances of success increases.
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On August 19 2010 18:08 Nihilnovi wrote: I'm sorry, but for someone to write a guide on 10 gate and not chrono probes 8-10, 10 pylon, and 2 gates on 10 just blows my mind.
9 pylon into 10 gate is a HUGE disadvantage because: Your 10:th probe will be delayed At 10 supply, you will have to wait for minerals to build gate, while having smaller probe count up to this point
if you chrono probes 1 time as soon as you have the energy and put down a pylon on 10, the second the plyon pops you will have 150 minerals.
I do it like this: Probes up to 10, chrono with first 25 energy. Pylon on 10. 2 gates on 10. Probes to 12. Pylon on 12.(no this does not delay your zealot, you will have exactly 100 minerals when your gateway pops) Spam zealots from both gates while chronoboosting.
Just tried this as exactly your build - You're right on 10 supply-pylon ( as I already edited per many people's suggestions), but building pylon on 12 definitely delay your zealot. Even if you somehow magically does not delay your first zealot( maybe you have super probes in your arsenal or something), I would imagine it would delay the 2nd and 3rd zealot - which is key. If you think i'm wrong, please provide with a replay.
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On August 21 2010 16:58 Skyro wrote: IMO this is pretty much an all-in build, so why not just proxy your gates? It increases the effectiveness of the build a ton, and there's really no way for them to stop your proxy gates from going up.
And while this build may seem to be more viable on 2-player maps, it is actually more effective on 4-player maps, particularly if you proxy. This is due to how you have to scout this build early, before you throw down your gas or core. On 2-player maps where your opponent scouts with his 9 pylon probe, they can easily spot the 2 early gates and just toss down another gate before gas, and at that point you're already fighting an uphill battle. But on 4-player maps due to them not knowing where you they may not be able to scout you before they have to commit to going standard gas into core and your chances of success increases.
this build's definitely a lot better on 4 player maps, since even if you scout them last you'll know their position (which is enough for you) but if he scouts last and he was going for cyber core..
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http://rapidshare.com/files/414409729/1v1vsmerhlin_immortal.SC2Replay
I tried this build (10/10/10) against a diamond toss player with an immortal avatar and I cannot complain Also what I did was when he went for stalker to let 1 zlot chase the stalker while the others just go straight for his probes. noone can keep up with that I guess :D
Nice one and I will try it some more.
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i can see how this build can work really well. but i personally like going 2gates on 13 so that i can force my opponent to go 2 gate too, while keeping pressure and i tech if he puts down the second gateway. completely 4gate cheese proof, while being economic as well. note that if i go 2 gate, my opponent has to 2 gate as well to stay alive if both of our micro are pretty decent. my tech wouldn't be behind since i can decide when i stop producing zealots and tech, while he has to react to what i do. 2gate on 10 can be deadly because it comes out much faster than 13, but you are forced to end the game or do severe damage with the initial push because your economy is behind.
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The other protoss if they scout this in time, they can wall off their choke completely (gateway, cybercore block) and chrono boost out stalkers from 2 gates. will this stop this build?
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this build gets owned by chrono'd stalkers and 2 gateway walloff of the choke. if i see someones saving his chronoboosts when i scout and see no gas you can bet your ass im walling off with 2 gateways and gonna own you.
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Lol i won a toss going for proxy 2gate on steppes of war.
how do i post replay?
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On August 25 2010 00:23 Evante wrote: Lol i won a toss going for proxy 2gate on steppes of war.
how do i post replay? go to www.star2.org, register, and upload. Copy and paste the embed code into comment.
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On August 23 2010 04:34 eecs4ever wrote: The other protoss if they scout this in time, they can wall off their choke completely (gateway, cybercore block) and chrono boost out stalkers from 2 gates. will this stop this build?
In my experience, "walling off choke completely" is not a solution for this build (although people keep telling me that.. I'm actually speaking from experience ) 3 zealots, no matter what the building is, can destroy buildings fairly quickly.
Now, asses this situation - you walled off your ramp with gate/core. The zealots are hacking away at the gateway, and your first stalker pops out. It takes 15 hits for a stalker to kill a zealot, and any competent protoss will pull back their zealot so they won't die. People act like protoss buildings are armor of god or something - and when even one is destroyed, you're down one gateway.
Following gate is the most reasonable solution (the one I'll accept) here. Stalkers aren't that effective against zealots in low numbers, and requires more micro than a zealot.
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I like to do a wall with Cyber/Gate/1 man corridor to pylon next to gate, I chrono first lot into the little corridor, followed by a stalker out behind. The first lot significantly delays ur building destruction 1on1ing the first lot, giving plenty of time for the stalker to blow shit up/get ur second units out
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Yeah, pylons fall surprisingly quickly to focused zealot fire, only if it's 2-3 of them. Hell, they could probably do a suicide blitz on a pylon--lose a zealot in exchange for your pylon and come out ahead. I really need to include this 2gate build into my repertoire, especially for maps with backdoors.
On August 21 2010 07:57 ungood wrote:There is a way to archive a guide! It's called liquipedia. I put up a first draft here: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/10/10_Gate_(vs._Protoss)This is my first liquipedia addition, so I hope I haven't offended the gods that be, but I figured I'd follow wikpedia's rule and be bold. Edit: Please feel free to add anything (like fixing formatting or adding the 10 Pylon version of the build).
Nice work with the LP article, but try and replace the sarcasm (fall asleep, roll around on ground, etc.) with something else. I'm not sure what the best counters actually are, so I'm not able to change anything regarding that.
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ok 10/10 gate vs proxy 2gate.
It is a not guide or instructional replay. It is just a funny replay and i wish to share
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On August 18 2010 12:12 EyMiller245 wrote: I've do this like all the time vs zerg and never vs toss. I know you say this is very strong against early cyb stalker but I just have a hard time believing that because I rush for stalkers as quickly as possible when I see two gate. I try to delay his rush using probes and my own zealot blocking until I can get two stalkers out because stalkers micro circles around zealots. I dont doubt this works but i think timing has a very important factor in this build.
Edit: Watched the replay vs 2gate and didn't make a strong case for the build (no offense). I still see a timing there against stalkers where you could do this but its slim and you need short rush distances.
I do standard 2-gate dropping my first gate at 12 and I have never EVER lost to someone rushing stalkers unless it's on a really long distance map. Keep in mind that this build is talking about rushing 3 zealots to you with a constant 2 zealot follow up from a 10 gate build. So in all likely hood, you will have 3 zealots at your base a few seconds before your first stalker finishes assuming you built a zeal to hold the wall. By the time your stalker is compete your walling zealot is either out of shield or at 50 health depending on how many zeals could hit him. You stalker will probably kill the weakest zealot before they get through at which point two more zealots have arrived at the bottom of your ramp. You now have one gate building a stalker every 42 seconds minus chrono boost versus two gates building zealots every 33 seconds minus boost with one stalker on the field versus four zealots.
As mentioned above, it takes stalkers ages to kill zealots. Your stalker will do 150 damage to kill a zealot by the time four zealots have done 640 damage to your pylons. It will take longer if they send one zealot after your stalker and it has to kite. You will have another stalker spawn from your gate as two more zealots arrive at your base. At this point the zealots will most likely (under an intelligent player) be able to trap the new stalker against the gateway and kill it. Now you have five zealots in your base with you down a pylon and two more zealots arriving in 33 seconds if your opponenet doesn't use his chrono boost.
And speaking of your opponent, at this point he will build a cy core and an assimilator and eventually start making his own stalkers.
But lets hop back to your base. Where you stalker has killed another zealot and your gateway is no longer powered. At this point you can try to use your stalker to kite 6 zealots, but you're going to lose some probes in the process. Regardless of any decisions that you make at this point, you are not in a good position to combat your opponents forces as you have no wall, and little control over the enemy units in your base.
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This strat probably works best against a Korean 4gate all-in, since they typically won't have anything
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I use a 3 Gate, no gas, 16 probe rush against protoss and win 95% of the time in Diamond, typically from me botching my micro or forgetting a pylon, etc. I've never lost to a 2 gate Rush, in fact I love when protoss try to zealot rush me. There just isn't enough time for you to get enough zealots in my base to overwhelm me and once my third gate is completed it's GG.
I typically chrono 12th probe, go 12 ,13, and 15 gate, and use all other chronos on the zealots. If a couple more zealots run in than I have present I use delaying tactics of hit and run until my next wave of zealots come out and then it's usually even or over.
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On August 23 2010 04:59 JeRLittlefielD wrote: this build gets owned by chrono'd stalkers and 2 gateway walloff of the choke. if i see someones saving his chronoboosts when i scout and see no gas you can bet your ass im walling off with 2 gateways and gonna own you.
I am SICK of people making comments that you can just use chrono stalkers to beat this build, using gate/core wall-off. I added 2 replays to show how baseless their claim is. I was at a diagonal location at LT was still able to win (Note that both games were not even close, although I told him exactly what I was going to do). 2 gate would be the only "counter" that I would accept.
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On August 25 2010 12:45 AimlessKitty wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 04:59 JeRLittlefielD wrote: this build gets owned by chrono'd stalkers and 2 gateway walloff of the choke. if i see someones saving his chronoboosts when i scout and see no gas you can bet your ass im walling off with 2 gateways and gonna own you. I am SICK of people making comments that you can just use chrono stalkers to beat this build, using gate/core wall-off. I added 2 replays to show how baseless their claim is. I was at a diagonal location at LT was still able to win (Note that both games were not even close, although I told him exactly what I was going to do). 2 gate would be the only "counter" that I would accept.
Actually AimlessKitty is right, I tried it myself by going 2 fast chrono stalkers on a ladder game. I scouted the 2 gate, thought "haha i'm gonna beat his lots so hard with my fast stalkers", and 2 minutes later he had so many zealots there was just nothing I could do. I don't think there is any way to counter 2 gate rush with early stalkers.
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I am not a fan of these kinds of builds however I feel as a Protoss player I am going to have to use this as a standard opening because of this korean 4 warpgate all in. Show some aggression but not be over aggressive, and depending what I see with my zealots, either push and end the game, or transition from there in the case of your opponent getting cannons up or matching your zealot count defensively (whether it coming from micro mistakes or whatever).
Because you are the aggressor you get to make the decision of when the cybercore goes down. I feel you could transition well into a robo build from here as they aren't gas heavy builds, and Warp Prism's would be an excellent follow up on the opponent mineral line if they have spent money on cannons at their front
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walloffs own this build.. If your opponent places his pylon so that he can walloff if needed i think its almost auto lose once he gets out 1 stalker
A good idea you might want to add is to hide 1 gateway ala huck so he thinks you're playing standard then chronoboost it.. i'll let you know if i can find the replay i'm talking about
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On August 26 2010 02:38 Easy772 wrote: walloffs own this build.. If your opponent places his pylon so that he can walloff if needed i think its almost auto lose once he gets out 1 stalker
A good idea you might want to add is to hide 1 gateway ala huck so he thinks you're playing standard then chronoboost it.. i'll let you know if i can find the replay i'm talking about
Are you serious? Does anyone read the OP at all these days? Actually, you're probably a troll.. must find my happy place...
On August 25 2010 12:45 AimlessKitty wrote: I am SICK of people making comments that you can just use chrono stalkers to beat this build, using gate/core wall-off. I added 2 replays to show how baseless their claim is. I was at a diagonal location at LT was still able to win (Note that both games were not even close, although I told him exactly what I was going to do). 2 gate would be the only "counter" that I would accept.
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Wall-offs DO NOT WORK against 10 gate ... not even remotely close. I feel aimlesskitty's pain.
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On August 25 2010 02:00 hofodomo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 07:57 ungood wrote:There is a way to archive a guide! It's called liquipedia. I put up a first draft here: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/10/10_Gate_(vs._Protoss)This is my first liquipedia addition, so I hope I haven't offended the gods that be, but I figured I'd follow wikpedia's rule and be bold. Edit: Please feel free to add anything (like fixing formatting or adding the 10 Pylon version of the build). Nice work with the LP article, but try and replace the sarcasm (fall asleep, roll around on ground, etc.) with something else. I'm not sure what the best counters actually are, so I'm not able to change anything regarding that.
I did some editing today to make it more "professional" and less sarcastic.
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On August 21 2010 16:34 AimlessKitty wrote: after experimenting 10 pylon is definitely better. Edited the guide as such. However I think people are putting this build off too much without trying them out.. People don't usually build gateway near ramp nowadays b/c it's harder to defend the ramp with stuff blocking your way. Also, there's a factor in 4 players maps that you'll get scouted at least 2nd time.. (it's 2/3 probability by the way) It's like saying "You can just stop bunker rush by going 9 pool.. bunker rush is a terrible build!" It's all situational. That's why it's called all-in. It's still a good build to do in low levels since it's easy to remember and do. lol I don't know why I have to defend his build so much.
First of all, thanks for the guide! As a Gold SC noob this is very helpful for me, as PvP is currently my biggest weakness. I do have one question:
When you say 10 pylon vs 9 pylon, are you talking about dropping a pylon when you have 9 probes and the 10th probe is training? I've always found I can get my first pylon out just before the 10th probe finishes but maybe I am misunderstanding something about the timing.
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On August 26 2010 05:08 Shadrak wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 16:34 AimlessKitty wrote: after experimenting 10 pylon is definitely better. Edited the guide as such. However I think people are putting this build off too much without trying them out.. People don't usually build gateway near ramp nowadays b/c it's harder to defend the ramp with stuff blocking your way. Also, there's a factor in 4 players maps that you'll get scouted at least 2nd time.. (it's 2/3 probability by the way) It's like saying "You can just stop bunker rush by going 9 pool.. bunker rush is a terrible build!" It's all situational. That's why it's called all-in. It's still a good build to do in low levels since it's easy to remember and do. lol I don't know why I have to defend his build so much. First of all, thanks for the guide! As a Gold SC noob this is very helpful for me, as PvP is currently my biggest weakness. I do have one question: When you say 10 pylon vs 9 pylon, are you talking about dropping a pylon when you have 9 probes and the 10th probe is training? I've always found I can get my first pylon out just before the 10th probe finishes but maybe I am misunderstanding something about the timing.
10 pylon means throwing down a pylon when your food is 10/10 - constantly produce probes until you see your food become 10/10. Then, when your mineral's close to 70, send out a probe near the ramp so you'll have 100 mineral to build a pylon. If this sound confusing, go ahead and watch the first replay I uploaded and note the timings.
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Fast stalkers can beat 2-gate; obviously it all depends on how good they are and how good you are. I beat 3-4 people this morning who probably read this last night (with fast stalkers). The two fast stalkers meet the incoming zealots at about the middle of the map, and if you've scouted this 2-gate properly, you've only made 2 or 3 stalkers and began to CB zealots again.
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On August 26 2010 05:38 tehemperorer wrote: Fast stalkers can beat 2-gate; obviously it all depends on how good they are and how good you are. I beat 3-4 people this morning who probably read this last night (with fast stalkers). The two fast stalkers meet the incoming zealots at about the middle of the map, and if you've scouted this 2-gate properly, you've only made 2 or 3 stalkers and began to CB zealots again.
I would love to play you if you're going to go stalkers against my 10/10. PM me if interested.
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On August 26 2010 05:38 tehemperorer wrote: Fast stalkers can beat 2-gate; obviously it all depends on how good they are and how good you are. I beat 3-4 people this morning who probably read this last night (with fast stalkers). The two fast stalkers meet the incoming zealots at about the middle of the map, and if you've scouted this 2-gate properly, you've only made 2 or 3 stalkers and began to CB zealots again.
You are clearly confused sir. If you had 2 stalkers in the field. YOU WERE NOT PLAYING AGAINST THIS BUILD. Unless your opponent didn't push at all in which case YOU WERE NOT PLAYING THIS BUILD. The way this build works is even under the condition that you one gate boosting a stalker, your opponent will have three zealots in your base before the first stalker gets out followed by 2 more zealots in 20 seconds. What you probably played against was standard 2 gate zealots which can be outplayed by fast stalkers if you're lucky/scouted early. As the previous poster said, I would love to go 10 gate versus your fast stalkers to show you what I mean.
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On August 26 2010 05:38 tehemperorer wrote: Fast stalkers can beat 2-gate; obviously it all depends on how good they are and how good you are. I beat 3-4 people this morning who probably read this last night (with fast stalkers). The two fast stalkers meet the incoming zealots at about the middle of the map, and if you've scouted this 2-gate properly, you've only made 2 or 3 stalkers and began to CB zealots again.
Actually when I did the same thing as you, my 2/3 stalks met like 7 zealots (opponent was 10 gating) at the middle of the map and I was like WTF?
I struggled bravely but it was a gg right from the start. So I'd really like to see how your 2 fast stalks beat a whole bunch of raging bloody zealots. (we can duel if you want)
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why should 3-gate not conter this build? i always get 1 gate more as my opponent when he is trying to zealotrush me and i easily outproduce his zealots
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I HATE 2 gate when im Zerg -___-
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On August 26 2010 06:40 TehForce wrote: why should 3-gate not conter this build? i always get 1 gate more as my opponent when he is trying to zealotrush me and i easily outproduce his zealots it takes quite a time in order for 3 gate to be "optimized." 10/10 gate is very efficient, it has just enough probes to support 2 gate barely, while having gates out asap. If you actually try to go 3 gate against this, you are
1.down 150mineral, and gateway take long time to build 2.you can't really support 3 gate early on.
You probably experienced 12/13 gates, and 3 gate is viable against that since zealots come very late compared to it. I recommend trying 3 gate against a friend who's doing 10/10 gate - you'll see what i mean.
**edit what I'm saying is, 2 gate is better to stop this.
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What's the advantage of 9 pylon over 10 pylon if you're just cutting probes anyways to make 10/10 gate? Wouldn't you be better going 10 pylon?
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A 13gate/scout -> gas -> core -> zealot(chrono), probe cut for 2nd gate, pull probes off gas after 50 or after 100 if scouted enemy later, start warpgate -> second zealot, third zealot on constant chrono until 2nd gate finishes -> 2gate zealots. This should hold just fine. The way it works is that they'll have more probes and warpgate incoming, while having same zealot count due to travel time. Basically, they'll get 3zealots ten seconds later than your 3zealots reach him on close positions, and when his 3rd zealot is out, his 2nd gate finishes, and you're both out of chrono boost -> so it'll be 5v5, etc. I don't believe 10 seconds is enough to overcome the massive probe setback with harrass - you'd barely reach probe line.
I think a better build is a 12/14 gate, with same 3chrono on gates, and scout after 2nd gate started. Difference is 10second later attack, but if they teched, they still have to cut probes for 2nd gate in case you get 4th/5th zealot - and when you see a probe cut 2nd gate timing, you can get gas/core instead and switch to defensive, using the probe advantage and hard-to-push-through-zealots-even-with-earlier-warp ramp. Or you could get 4th/5th zealot but go for their probes and trade units for economy, turtling hardcore for some time later.
It also is better off against 10/10 proxy. The fight is still in your territory(at least, if they proxied really close), so you risk getting harrassed, but you have more probes this time and same zealot count as proxy gater's.
If they forged, you have more probes than off of 10/10, you can expand faster.
If they went for a 2gate -> chrono on probes, you are less behind than with 10/10. If it's a 2player map, you have option to _not_ chrono 2nd/3rd zealot, but chrono probes when you see him 2gate as well. If it's 4player map and they go for chrono probes and 2 gate, they're probably losing a lot of games to core openings (those get time to grab 3zealots against 3zealots -> no pressure, 2nd gate, 4zeals/sentry to separate a 5zealot attack in parts, warpgate incoming, etc). Even if they did it's not much of a difference.
I believe a 13gate->(save chrono, use only one after gate)->core->small probe cut for 2nd gate to be another 'counter' to this build(first one being 2gate chrono probes), but it's not countering as hard as it counters 10/10, and it's only bonus is getting a faster warpgate. You, however, hold the intiative to not get 4th/5th zealot if they cut probes for 2nd gate, but instead get gas/core and chrono warpgate to catch up while switching to defensive play.
EDIT:
You probably experienced 12/13 gates, and 3 gate is viable against that since zealots come very late compared to it. I recommend trying 3 gate against a friend who's doing 10/10 gate - you'll see what i mean.
Please try a 12/14 gate with scouting after 2nd gate and chronoing all 3 zealots. I saw 3zealots reaching enemy base at 04:10 close spots at your replay, and it was 04:20 for my 2gates, but with a bunch of probes more.
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On August 26 2010 07:00 Soulforged wrote:A 13gate/scout -> gas -> core -> zealot(chrono), probe cut for 2nd gate, pull probes off gas after 50 or after 100 if scouted enemy later, start warpgate -> second zealot, third zealot on constant chrono until 2nd gate finishes -> 2gate zealots. This should hold just fine. The way it works is that they'll have more probes and warpgate incoming, while having same zealot count due to travel time. Basically, they'll get 3zealots ten seconds later than your 3zealots reach him on close positions, and when his 3rd zealot is out, his 2nd gate finishes, and you're both out of chrono boost -> so it'll be 5v5, etc. I don't believe 10 seconds is enough to overcome the massive probe setback with harrass - you'd barely reach probe line. I think a better build is a 12/14 gate, with same 3chrono on gates, and scout after 2nd gate started. Difference is 10second later attack, but if they teched, they still have to cut probes for 2nd gate in case you get 4th/5th zealot - and when you see a probe cut 2nd gate timing, you can get gas/core instead and switch to defensive, using the probe advantage and hard-to-push-through-zealots-even-with-earlier-warp ramp. Or you could get 4th/5th zealot but go for their probes and trade units for economy, turtling hardcore for some time later. It also is better off against 10/10 proxy. The fight is still in your territory(at least, if they proxied really close), so you risk getting harrassed, but you have more probes this time and same zealot count as proxy gater's. If they forged, you have more probes than off of 10/10, you can expand faster. If they went for a 2gate -> chrono on probes, you are less behind than with 10/10. If it's a 2player map, you have option to _not_ chrono 2nd/3rd zealot, but chrono probes when you see him 2gate as well. If it's 4player map and they go for chrono probes and 2 gate, they're probably losing a lot of games to core openings (those get time to grab 3zealots against 3zealots -> no pressure, 2nd gate, 4zeals/sentry to separate a 5zealot attack in parts, warpgate incoming, etc). Even if they did it's not much of a difference. I believe a 13gate->(save chrono, use only one after gate)->core->small probe cut for 2nd gate to be another 'counter' to this build(first one being 2gate chrono probes), but it's not countering as hard as it counters 10/10, and it's only bonus is getting a faster warpgate. You, however, hold the intiative to not get 4th/5th zealot if they cut probes for 2nd gate, but instead get gas/core and chrono warpgate to catch up while switching to defensive play. EDIT: Show nested quote + You probably experienced 12/13 gates, and 3 gate is viable against that since zealots come very late compared to it. I recommend trying 3 gate against a friend who's doing 10/10 gate - you'll see what i mean.
Please try a 12/14 gate with scouting after 2nd gate and chronoing all 3 zealots. I saw 3zealots reaching enemy base at 04:10 close spots at your replay, and it was 04:20 for my 2gates, but with a bunch of probes more.
I'm having a hard time believing this.. want to try this in action? PM me.
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Watched the last 2 replays vs whoop. Going stalkers is NOT the way to go vs this build just clearly by reading the build explained at OP. The zealots only take 9 damage each (without shields since +1 armor at zealot) and the build time is longer than a zealot and the easiest part is that a stalker is better than a zealot when you're microing meaning you can't lose focus on your stalker which many people will lose so your stalker is effectively worse than a zealot except high tiered players or pros probably (or not).
The offensive player however can go attack anything he wants to and keep his stalkers busy with a 2 zealots for each stalker and the remaining zealots can do whatever the agressor likes to do which is the strong side of this strategy.
@OP What if someone walls off and canons up a few canons ? You can attack the forge/gateway walloff but will you lose only a few more zealots than when you'd wall off against gate/cyber with a stalker behind hitting you?
This build is however you'd look at it always better than any warpgate build since warpgate will always come too late vs this build and any gate-cyber build. There is no way you should be going a stalker. That means the only way possible to counter this is either know he goes 10/10 gate and also do the same or somehow get a few canons up (probably need at least 3? to fend off but this means you'll be behind in tech I guess compared to the guy 10/10 gating you).
Have you lost any PvP with this build @OP?
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This build isn't unbeatable or close to it. It's just 12 gate core to stalkers CAN NOT stop it, even if you do a block. Read the OP ... there are clearly scenarios where this build has problems. It's borderline all-in against some builds.
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I don't really understand the point of doing this build -- I get it has metagame influences and so you have to account for it (you can't just blindly 13 gate into fast core with no zealot or scouting) but at the same time its 100% scoutable and provided the person scouting it knows what they're doing, they're just gonna be at an advantage. A more economic 2 gate opening (12/13, etc.) that abuses the travel distance just inevitably eeks ahead. Sure, you CAN make up the difference through superior micro, but I'm not sure why I'd bother volunteering to go a build, that if scouted (and everyone should really be pylon-scouting in PvP) instantly puts me at a disadvantage with the hope that he just happens to do something dumb and do a build I happen to autowin against.
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On August 26 2010 07:35 shannn wrote: Watched the last 2 replays vs whoop. Going stalkers is NOT the way to go vs this build just clearly by reading the build explained at OP. The zealots only take 9 damage each (without shields since +1 armor at zealot) and the build time is longer than a zealot and the easiest part is that a stalker is better than a zealot when you're microing meaning you can't lose focus on your stalker which many people will lose so your stalker is effectively worse than a zealot except high tiered players or pros probably (or not).
The offensive player however can go attack anything he wants to and keep his stalkers busy with a 2 zealots for each stalker and the remaining zealots can do whatever the agressor likes to do which is the strong side of this strategy.
@OP What if someone walls off and canons up a few canons ? You can attack the forge/gateway walloff but will you lose only a few more zealots than when you'd wall off against gate/cyber with a stalker behind hitting you?
This build is however you'd look at it always better than any warpgate build since warpgate will always come too late vs this build and any gate-cyber build. There is no way you should be going a stalker. That means the only way possible to counter this is either know he goes 10/10 gate and also do the same or somehow get a few canons up (probably need at least 3? to fend off but this means you'll be behind in tech I guess compared to the guy 10/10 gating you).
Have you lost any PvP with this build @OP?
By no mean this build is perfect, but it is quite effective against core builds or proxy builds, which are quite common. Yea, sure, you can build cannons, but remember you spent 300 mineral on static defense.
Best way to counter this is just simply following gate - although it might be a bit difficult to handle if you used up all your chrono already.. This build's a lot more effective in 4 player maps for short distance/lower scout chance.
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On August 26 2010 07:45 Keren wrote: I don't really understand the point of doing this build -- I get it has metagame influences and so you have to account for it (you can't just blindly 13 gate into fast core with no zealot or scouting) but at the same time its 100% scoutable and provided the person scouting it knows what they're doing, they're just gonna be at an advantage. A more economic 2 gate opening (12/13, etc.) that abuses the travel distance just inevitably eeks ahead. Sure, you CAN make up the difference through superior micro, but I'm not sure why I'd bother volunteering to go a build, that if scouted (and everyone should really be pylon-scouting in PvP) instantly puts me at a disadvantage with the hope that he just happens to do something dumb and do a build I happen to autowin against.
It's not 100% scoutable in 4 player maps - it's actually 33% chance. I tend use this build less in 1v1 maps as I'm moving up the ladder ( They usually know to follow gate ), but I still love to do this build in 4 player maps. Just try it out in maps like LT or kulas..
Originally I worked on this build because I was tired of PvP, and wanted to end matches asap lol (it's this or 4gate anyway)
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On August 26 2010 06:58 FabledIntegral wrote: What's the advantage of 9 pylon over 10 pylon if you're just cutting probes anyways to make 10/10 gate? Wouldn't you be better going 10 pylon? In OP I edited that section long time ago.
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I've seen a lot of protoss doing this -- not really a fan of it.
It's pretty easy to counter, just 2gate in response, even though you've spent minerals on an assimilator, and perhaps wasted a chronoboost or two, it still doesn't put you drastically behind, and you have a massive run distance advantage.
As well after surviving the push, I've never lost afterward, so either the economic difference is too great, or players are relying on just this build to win it.
I haven't had any success continuing with core/stalkers against this however, too much time for zealots to amass, so would definitely just skip it until you're in the clear.
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I did it on DQ where I was at the 1 o clock and my opponent 9 o clock position. He scouted me directly and my 2gate. I managed to win the game by just doing the same thing like with the game where opponents are walling off with gate/cyber instead this time it was gate/gate. His 3rd zealot was 10 sec too late else he would've been able to just keep me busy but I managed to destroy 1gate and I was able to just overcome him by constantly producing zealots.
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On August 26 2010 03:36 AimlessKitty wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2010 02:38 Easy772 wrote: walloffs own this build.. If your opponent places his pylon so that he can walloff if needed i think its almost auto lose once he gets out 1 stalker
A good idea you might want to add is to hide 1 gateway ala huck so he thinks you're playing standard then chronoboost it.. i'll let you know if i can find the replay i'm talking about Are you serious? Does anyone read the OP at all these days? Actually, you're probably a troll.. must find my happy place... Show nested quote +On August 25 2010 12:45 AimlessKitty wrote: I am SICK of people making comments that you can just use chrono stalkers to beat this build, using gate/core wall-off. I added 2 replays to show how baseless their claim is. I was at a diagonal location at LT was still able to win (Note that both games were not even close, although I told him exactly what I was going to do). 2 gate would be the only "counter" that I would accept.
I haven't lost to this in so long. maybe since platinum (750ish diamond now). Maybe you're doing something different and you probably have WAY better micro than most if not all the players at platinum that I've faced, I apologize for offending you
I find it hard to believe that 2 gate is the ONLY counter to this build.. Will watch the replays tonight and get back to you.
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Watched the replays.. Looks like a solid build man! nice guide.. would be interested to see the replay of this matchup.
+ Show Spoiler +A 13gate/scout -> gas -> core -> zealot(chrono), probe cut for 2nd gate, pull probes off gas after 50 or after 100 if scouted enemy later, start warpgate -> second zealot, third zealot on constant chrono until 2nd gate finishes -> 2gate zealots. This should hold just fine. The way it works is that they'll have more probes and warpgate incoming, while having same zealot count due to travel time. Basically, they'll get 3zealots ten seconds later than your 3zealots reach him on close positions, and when his 3rd zealot is out, his 2nd gate finishes, and you're both out of chrono boost -> so it'll be 5v5, etc. I don't believe 10 seconds is enough to overcome the massive probe setback with harrass - you'd barely reach probe line.
I think a better build is a 12/14 gate, with same 3chrono on gates, and scout after 2nd gate started. Difference is 10second later attack, but if they teched, they still have to cut probes for 2nd gate in case you get 4th/5th zealot - and when you see a probe cut 2nd gate timing, you can get gas/core instead and switch to defensive, using the probe advantage and hard-to-push-through-zealots-even-with-earlier-warp ramp. Or you could get 4th/5th zealot but go for their probes and trade units for economy, turtling hardcore for some time later.
It also is better off against 10/10 proxy. The fight is still in your territory(at least, if they proxied really close), so you risk getting harrassed, but you have more probes this time and same zealot count as proxy gater's.
If they forged, you have more probes than off of 10/10, you can expand faster.
If they went for a 2gate -> chrono on probes, you are less behind than with 10/10. If it's a 2player map, you have option to _not_ chrono 2nd/3rd zealot, but chrono probes when you see him 2gate as well. If it's 4player map and they go for chrono probes and 2 gate, they're probably losing a lot of games to core openings (those get time to grab 3zealots against 3zealots -> no pressure, 2nd gate, 4zeals/sentry to separate a 5zealot attack in parts, warpgate incoming, etc). Even if they did it's not much of a difference.
I believe a 13gate->(save chrono, use only one after gate)->core->small probe cut for 2nd gate to be another 'counter' to this build(first one being 2gate chrono probes), but it's not countering as hard as it counters 10/10, and it's only bonus is getting a faster warpgate. You, however, hold the intiative to not get 4th/5th zealot if they cut probes for 2nd gate, but instead get gas/core and chrono warpgate to catch up while switching to defensive play.
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Any chance you can get all the replays in one file on megaupload or something similar? makes it easier to download them all!!
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Just had this build done against me. Scouted it on close positions on Metalopolis. I went 13 gate. planned to go core, but I saw his double gate, so I threw my own down.
Here is the replay.
You can check out my comments on the match at my blog.
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On August 26 2010 12:14 Easy772 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2010 03:36 AimlessKitty wrote:On August 26 2010 02:38 Easy772 wrote: walloffs own this build.. If your opponent places his pylon so that he can walloff if needed i think its almost auto lose once he gets out 1 stalker
A good idea you might want to add is to hide 1 gateway ala huck so he thinks you're playing standard then chronoboost it.. i'll let you know if i can find the replay i'm talking about Are you serious? Does anyone read the OP at all these days? Actually, you're probably a troll.. must find my happy place... On August 25 2010 12:45 AimlessKitty wrote: I am SICK of people making comments that you can just use chrono stalkers to beat this build, using gate/core wall-off. I added 2 replays to show how baseless their claim is. I was at a diagonal location at LT was still able to win (Note that both games were not even close, although I told him exactly what I was going to do). 2 gate would be the only "counter" that I would accept. I haven't lost to this in so long. maybe since platinum (750ish diamond now). Maybe you're doing something different and you probably have WAY better micro than most if not all the players at platinum that I've faced, I apologize for offending you I find it hard to believe that 2 gate is the ONLY counter to this build.. Will watch the replays tonight and get back to you.
Sorry dude.. I just raged a bit at all the people's "Lol this get owned by X" comments although I clearly provided replays and reasons why going core first won't work.
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On August 26 2010 17:55 Tommylew wrote: Any chance you can get all the replays in one file on megaupload or something similar? makes it easier to download them all!!
Maybe you should use chrome where you can just click them to auto-download
Trolling aside, you don't really need to watch them all.. just watch the first replay, any replay against non-walloff to core and one core wall-off.
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10/10 is terribadly counter by 12/12 since the guy will have much better eco. I used to 10/10 and now I just 12/12, if the guy holds it off then I still have an economic advantage. Fun build though, doesn't work vs very good players.
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On August 27 2010 07:37 whiteguycash wrote:Just had this build done against me. Scouted it on close positions on Metalopolis. I went 13 gate. planned to go core, but I saw his double gate, so I threw my own down. Here is the replay. You can check out my comments on the match at my blog.
after holding it off, wouldn't it be better to just build a 3rd gate and just end the game right there
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I am only bronze and nowhere near a pro. In fact, my opinion is so lowly (only 30 games played) I expect to be shut down immediately. That being said, in my experience a 2 gate is really easy to beat. It is so common in PvP that I early scout and wall off completely with gateway/forge and 2 cannons, then get a fast void ray out with perhaps a single stalker to supplement the cannons and deal with anything sneaky.
By the time your void ray gets out they are really hurting by being denied an early win and being so behind on tech and economy. Usually u can kill most of their zealots with ur void rays and then kill any cybernetic powering pylons to deny stalkers.
... thoughts?
edit/ i am only bronze but just got the game and have played other RTS'es, not a micro/macro nub at all. im 13-11 right now (big whoop) and frequently beat high silvers and mid level golds, so im not a 2-29 bronze or anything is all im saying.
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On August 27 2010 08:42 mprs wrote:after holding it off, wouldn't it be better to just build a 3rd gate and just end the game right there
I'm sure it has the potential to end the game faster, but I enjoy standard play, and at the time, felt that my lead was not huge enough to warrant an all-in such as 3-4 gate because I had not caused any economic damage to him.
If you'll notice, I tried to continue to tech while defending, thus guaranteeing a victory.
Either way though, you are correct, it would have been a faster finish.
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would it really make this build obsolete? first 3 zealots would be delayed by 5 seconds (2 from first gate, 1 from the other. with chronoboost) no?
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I admittedly exaggerated, but it would make 10/10 a lot more all-in.
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but 4gate cheese might be in danger of becoming obsolete tho.
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4gate gets stronger, actually. The changes makes absolutely no difference in how fast you can tech to 4gate. The only change is that the second set of zealots warps in 5 seconds slower, but when does this ever make a difference?
The reason why 4 gate becomes a stronger build is because 2 gate aggression (the thing that counters 4 gate) is now less effective.
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the cooldown becomes longer, so now you need more time to warp things in, no? how does it get stronger
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like for 4gate cheese, you would get the first 4 zealots at the same time, but second wave would take longer than it is now, is my understanding
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I think this would still work if you could proxy it though or even proxy 1 gate.
EDIT: damn someone beat me to it
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On August 28 2010 04:57 whoopadeedoo wrote: I admittedly exaggerated, but it would make 10/10 a lot more all-in. 10/10 is quite an all-in build anyway in high levels. edit: I probably have to put quotation mark around the "high levels" part.
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Ya, but the changes make it even more all-in than it already is, making it less attractive (hence my exaggerated "goodbye" )
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If you go 2 gate you need to proxy imo because it basically is a allin in most occasions. If you zealot pressure is in some way stopped by stalkers you have lost no matter that you still have a base and decent economy etc. The only risk with proxing is that you run against someone who just does this build in base in which case it comes down to a massive micro fight where he has a slight advantage. A 10/10 gate build is already at disadvantage against some builds though, like 12 gate/13 gate if they scouted you properly.
The 2 replays from the cybercore wall failing also don't really convince me. The defense wasn't played too great in these and with great micro it can be pulled off imo. For example it's possible to go 1 zealot (while cyber is building) then 1 stalker chronoboosted and then 1 sentry. The sentry arrives just in time if done well to forcefield and let the gateway survive a bit. After that good play with several stalkers can be enough.
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On August 28 2010 05:15 viraltouch wrote: like for 4gate cheese, you would get the first 4 zealots at the same time, but second wave would take longer than it is now, is my understanding
Yep ... only the second wave will take 5 seconds longer. This never makes a difference though. Either your opponent will have tech built (no difference) or 4 gated (no difference).
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The 2 replays from the cybercore wall failing also don't really convince me. The defense wasn't played too great in these and with great micro it can be pulled off imo. For example it's possible to go 1 zealot (while cyber is building) then 1 stalker chronoboosted and then 1 sentry. The sentry arrives just in time if done well to forcefield and let the gateway survive a bit. After that good play with several stalkers can be enough.
I can't view the replay at work, but I don't remember having anywhere close to the resources required to do what you're suggesting. Again, we're talking about a standard 12 gate+core build. If you have some other creative wall build that works, post it.
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On August 27 2010 09:36 ichangedmyname wrote: I am only bronze and nowhere near a pro. In fact, my opinion is so lowly (only 30 games played) I expect to be shut down immediately. That being said, in my experience a 2 gate is really easy to beat. It is so common in PvP that I early scout and wall off completely with gateway/forge and 2 cannons, then get a fast void ray out with perhaps a single stalker to supplement the cannons and deal with anything sneaky.
By the time your void ray gets out they are really hurting by being denied an early win and being so behind on tech and economy. Usually u can kill most of their zealots with ur void rays and then kill any cybernetic powering pylons to deny stalkers.
... thoughts?
edit/ i am only bronze but just got the game and have played other RTS'es, not a micro/macro nub at all. im 13-11 right now (big whoop) and frequently beat high silvers and mid level golds, so im not a 2-29 bronze or anything is all im saying.
Let's do the math here: Forge + two cannons = 150+150x2 = 450 Minerals. The moment you put down those stuff, you are economically far behind (10/10 gate sacrifice a lot of economy, but still come on top against 450 mineral difference.) If i don't engage them, static defense is, well, just being static. On the other hand, I can use those mineral to tech, build probes, or even expand. Now, at bronze level, people probably won't know how to take advantage of this (I'm not trying to be offensive here.. I'm just stating the chances) and might look like you "came on top by superior decision making" and won.
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On August 28 2010 05:46 whoopadeedoo wrote:Ya, but the changes make it even more all-in than it already is, making it less attractive (hence my exaggerated "goodbye" )
Hmm I can see it screwing up the build order a bit.. but enemy zealots are delayed all the same right? I think we'll have to see what happens..
Man I can't believe they nerfed zealot now it's gonna be even harder to defend against my aggressive zerg friends..
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U have to take probes off now vs every 6-9 pool or completely wall off it seems.
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On August 28 2010 05:47 Markwerf wrote: If you go 2 gate you need to proxy imo because it basically is a allin in most occasions. If you zealot pressure is in some way stopped by stalkers you have lost no matter that you still have a base and decent economy etc. The only risk with proxing is that you run against someone who just does this build in base in which case it comes down to a massive micro fight where he has a slight advantage. A 10/10 gate build is already at disadvantage against some builds though, like 12 gate/13 gate if they scouted you properly.
The 2 replays from the cybercore wall failing also don't really convince me. The defense wasn't played too great in these and with great micro it can be pulled off imo. For example it's possible to go 1 zealot (while cyber is building) then 1 stalker chronoboosted and then 1 sentry. The sentry arrives just in time if done well to forcefield and let the gateway survive a bit. After that good play with several stalkers can be enough. If you're interested, PM me and we can test this out.
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Hi guys,
I am new to the game and just tried this build for the first time, it was against a cannon rusher. After he rush fails he acused me to be map hacking and I dicided to watch the replay to see why.
But now I am thinkin that he was map hacking, look how he sent 5 probes to kill mine to prevent my scout just before I get into his base and how he constantly "looks" at my pylon/gates.
Is he a possible map hacker? Should I report him or am I just being too neurotic about it?
Heres the replay:
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