Edit: Mega-Update Sept 17! Changelog: - Added two new replays - Added protoss FE to 'adapting to protoss strategies' - Updated transitioning into lategame to future-proof strategy for patch 1.1 --> Ghosts have been integrated into the build to counter certain compositions --> Battlecruisers are no longer used due to the nerf in patch 1.1
Intro As my school starts very soon and I probably won't be able to invest the time to try to compete at this game at a high level anymore, I thought I'd write a guide to share some tricks for my most successful matchup before I start to suck at the game. I'll start off by saying that I didn't invent most of the components of this build. I didn't invent 1/1/1 (or 1/1/2), and I did not invent 2starport play. However, I was dissatisfied with the rax/fact/rax/starport/starport opening as I felt the extra building time for the rax and gas wasted on marauder-based bio kept the build from being efficient. I began making a build to increase the efficiency of the two-starport core which is extremely versatile and difficult to counter in TvP.
This build is an optimization and stylistic change to the 2-starport play which is becoming increasingly popular. I feel that it is more powerful and more versatile than most 2port play.
This build incorporates a fast hellion drop, and a marine/bunker defense into 2-starport play which allows counters to be easily produced. The build is very lean, holding off on the second refinery until after the first starport begins construction, creating mineral-only units, and forgoing any addons until two starports are produced.
The focus of the build is on efficiency, creating an economic advantage through hellion harass, and creating an army while spending the least possible amount of resources and worker time on unnecessary structures and tech.
(build orders can only go so far - watch the replays)
The intro build order is as follows: 10 supply 12 rax >> make marines nonstop >> oc when rax finishes 13 refinery
(pop counts skipped from here out to account for scouts dying, other oddities, etc) Factory >> Make 3 hellions Bunker Supply Depot Starport Refinery >> Make medivac when starport complete >> medivac should pop out about at the same time that you have 3 hellions - go drop >> As soon as medivac completes, build tech lab on starport and factory Starport >> Swap second starport onto factory's tech lab >> Use excess minerals to expand and add more barracks >> Push at 2-4 banshees - this is timed such that it will come before psi storm.
Until this point, you should be following the build order strictly. The 1/1/2 with hellion drop is stable and you do not need to branch out until you have two tech-labbed starports.
You are now in what I call the 'triple threat' position. It is called 'triple threat' because it sounds kick-ass and makes the strategy sound like it's prepared for anything. But seriously, this is where your 2port allows you to be versatile.
- 3 Hellion drop is incredibly powerful. Basically an insta-win if your opponent is not defending, and even if prepared, you will get at least 4-5 probes if you micro well. The hellion drop is incredibly strong even if you know it's coming ahead of time. - Hellion drop gives great scouting info and allows you to adapt with your 2starports - 1/1/2 play allows you to account for all protoss openings - Standard opening prevents protoss from gathering any info about build before initial scout is forced out by marine - Very efficient use of minerals - rax and factory produce mineral-only units with no addons non-stop. - Timings are optimized to spend all minerals at all points throughout the build order - high efficiency
Your default units on your starports should be 2x banshees. The 2x banshee+marine build is incredibly powerful, and can beat any composition that does not include storms. The hellion drop provides a well-timed opportunity to scout your opponent and adapt, if necessary:
Countering a protoss FE first requires understanding the limitations of the protoss FE build and then requires you to exploit those limitations based on scouting information. The 1/1/2 hellion drop is very versatile, allowing you to adapt to exploit your opponent's weaknesses following the first hellion drop.
There are several facts which must be realized to understand the counter: #1) The opponent must have both a robotics facilityand either a stargate or a templar archives to counter cloaked and uncloaked banshees, respectively. #2) The opponent must have either a robotics bay or a templar archives and psionic storm to counter a mid-game bio + ghost ball. #3) The protoss FE does not pay off immediately. As a result, the protoss player must invest in defense early or risk being killed by an all-in push.
Given these facts, it is crucial that you are able to scout adequately and adapt. I've created a flowchart that demonstrates how to best exploit the protoss FE build.
The flowchart demonstrates that you are forcing your opponent to get costly tech structures in addition to the cost of his fast expand. In the case that he does cover all his bases (robo, + stargate or robo + twilight council + templar archives), he will be unable to deal with a strong ghost+marine+banshee-based timing attack, taking place before storm can be researched, due to the cost of all the structures and tech.
But now the question is - how can I get such perfect scouting information? Easy. You have a medivac left after your hellion drop. Instead of sending it back to base, leave it outside the protoss base. Poke in and out with the medivac every once in a while, checking up on your opponent's tech.
Keep building marines, and open with two vikings into 2x mass banshees. Focus fire any colossus. If there are no colossus, the robotics bay is a wasteful gas sink and will set your opponent behind, as no other robotics-based units are effective against marines or banshees.
The two vikings are essential to keep colossus from abusing their superior range (for example, by burning down your bunker from safety. However, once this deterrent is created, banshees are actually the better anti-colossus unit.
Banshee DPS vs colossus: ((12 damage per rocket - 1 colossus armor) * 2 rockets) / 1.25 firing speed = 17.6 dps Viking DPS vs colossus: 13 dps
Banshee dominance over colossus is demonstrated in the replay vs Sinatra.
Assuming you have been making marines the entire time (which you should be), you should have 8-9 marines by time the first void ray hits. The void ray can either hit your wall-off or it can attack the back of your base while units attack your ramp. Both are easily stopped by this build.
As soon as you see void rays or a starport, do the following: 1) Take any marines not in your bunker (you should have ~4-5 extra) and prepare them at the back of your base. 2) take 4-5 scvs, turn on auto repair, and move them next to the bunker by your ramp. 3) Queue up one viking on each starport. In one production cycle, you will have two vikings, and then you're easily able to hold off any void-ray based play. 4) Follow up with cloaked banshees. Most void ray rushes neglect a robo bay and you can force your opponent into a wasteful tech structure or force them to lose outright.
Place your bunker on the outer-most side of your walloff, forcing void rays to attack from an awkward angle.
The answer is obvious here - just make a raven first. But what if you don't find the tech? I always save my third set of 50 energy on my orbital command until I can be sure no DTs are coming or until I get a raven. Also, keep a control group of SCVs on auto repair you can pull quickly to your wall to repair until a raven comes out.
Open with two vikings instead of two banshees. Your marine ball + range from the viking will prevent any phoenix harass. Phoenixes will be shot by marines if they attempt to engage the vikings.
High templar 'opening' is somewhat of a misnomer. High templar take absolutely forever with storm tech, and your first push (2-4 banshees + marines) should occur before storm tech. If they rush storm ASAP, they will lack detection, and you can punish this with cloaked banshees...
If you spot a twilight council with your hellion drop, just open into cloaked banshees. This will force the protoss player to decide between very fast storm and detection. Cancel cloak before it is finished if you see a robo being constructed and spend the money on a fusion core.
The marine/banshee composition has only one weakness - high templar. While the first 2-4 banshee push is timed such that you should not have to deal with high templar, if your push is held off, it will begin to be a concern. Your lategame composition is dependant on your opponent's composition:
High templar builds will always contain a lot of two units - zealots and high templars. Once your opponent's tech path is scouted, immediately place a tech lab on your factory and build an additional factory. Research the preigniter upgrade and begin 2x producing hellions.
Create a ghost academy as well and produce ghosts/marines/marauders. Your starports should now be used to produce medivacs for pre-igniter hellion drops and bio support. Your ghost/medivac/bio/hellion army is very well suited to take on high templar compositions.
Mass banshee + bio should handle this easily. Due to their stacking, banshees reach a 'critical mass' where they become more cost efficient with more volume.
A lot of people are having trouble with the toss FE still, so I thought I'd give another replay to demonstrate the proper response. Agh (17xx rated protoss) does a FE build, but cannot sustain a robo, a stargate, and a large army (all of which are necessary to prevent harassment or death). I find the weakpoint (no stargate allowing me to exploit banshees) and harass relentlessly.
A big problem with the toss FE for most players is the illusion that they are falling behind in macro. The effectiveness you gain from the protoss' limited options should even you out economically - in this game, my economy was on par or greater than my opponent's for the vast majority of the time.
(new!)
This replay demonstrates the proper response to the situation where you achieve a strong economic advantage due to hellion harass and/or expanding before your opponent. My hellion harass dealt significant damage and my spotting of the robo bay cued me in that my opponent was not expanding (which was verified by later scouting).
I decided not to push, but to bunker up and capitalize on my economic advantage, confident that my superior econ would allow me to win the game.
(new!)
This replay is a demonstration of the 1/1/2 Hellion Drop against a protoss FE. Behind in economy due to the fast expansion, I equalize the economic difference and exploit my opponent's unit composition to punish his greedy build.
My drop allowed me to determine his composition and exploit the gap left by my opponent's economic-based build - in this situation, lack of stargate and templar archives, allowing me to abuse mass-banshees for the win.
Note that the hellion drop prevents aggression. Time does an aggressive gateway push, but that leaves him open to hellion annihilation.
Although I could not get any replays of people holding off the initial push to show my lategame transition, note that two battlecruisers were in production in preparation for the lategame transition.
This player was well prepared for my hellion drop. He still lost 5 probes, giving me the economic lead. Note how obnoxiously fast the 6x banshees drop the colossus, leaving my marines free to rip apart the fragile gateway-based army.
I uploaded this replay to help people with void ray openings. Notice that there are several ways to watch for void ray openings:
1) Scout all pylon locations. Pylon locations in out-of-position spots should be scouted later - the starport is uncovered with my hellion drop 2) Close air positions should put you on high alert. Be very ready to make a viking and move additional marines to the back 3) Note that I had a ctrl group of scvs (3) on auto-repair so I could quickly pull onto the bunker in case of a two-pronged attack
Nova follows with a strong defense, but ultimately he was only able to muster this defense because he neglected his robo bay, which I am able to punish with cloak.
Should the opponent stick to robo-based builds or gateway-based builds, you can stick with bio + banshees. Banshees focus-fire colossus incredibly fast.
Q: Isn't the hellion drop cheesy? If the opponent knows you're going to do it, it clearly won't work. A: Anyone who has tried the hellion drop knows how ridiculously strong it is, even when defended. Provided you can drop your hellions before your medivac dies (which is incredibly easy as early in the game as early as this hits) you should get at least 4-5 probe kills even if your opponent is prepared for it. In addition, this forces your opponent into passivity, as if their forces are not defending, you can kill their entire probe line.
Q: Isn't this build weaker on maps like blistering sands where destructible rocks allows protoss to avoid your bunker? A: Yep. This is the case with a lot of Terran builds on blistering sands. I would recommend pre-emptively placing a second bunker at your destructible rocks after your factory, and moving to defend whatever side is necessary.
Q: I died to void rays, wtf A: Void rays are counterable with this build, but the two vikings are very important. It is also very important that you never stop building marines. You absolutely need the 8-9 marines you should have by time void rays hit. I've fought off many good void ray rushes with this build. If the void rays approach from an awkward angle and charge up on your wall, bring SCVs to repair both the bunker and the wall as long as possible until your vikings come out. Once your two vikings come out, you will be fine with a little micro.
Hope you enjoy it, feel free to ask questions or help me find optimizations - please read through, try it, or at least watch replays before hating :p
You are now in what I call the 'triple threat' position. It is called 'triple threat' because it sounds kick-ass and makes the strategy sound like it's prepared for anything. But seriously, this is where your 2port allows you to be versatile.
Lol badass. I like your play a lot from random replays and tournaments that I've seen iEchoic, will definitely check this out ^^ New low-mid diamond player and I'm trying to branch out from ghost/marine to something more stable in TvP.
i like the rax fact rax port build tlo uses against protoss
2marines 1marauder 1hellion push tech on factory swap with starport reactor marines and maruaders from your 2 raxes banshees without cloak and hellion 2-4 banshee push with whatever you have should finish them off
I like the versatility of this build quite a bit. Excluding hidden dark shrines, I really can't think of a scenario this wouldn't allow you to adapt to.
You are now in what I call the 'triple threat' position. It is called 'triple threat' because it sounds kick-ass and makes the strategy sound like it's prepared for anything. But seriously, this is where your 2port allows you to be versatile.
Lol badass. I like your play a lot from random replays and tournaments that I've seen iEchoic, will definitely check this out ^^ New low-mid diamond player and I'm trying to branch out from ghost/marine to something more stable in TvP.
Thanks, I appreciate it, good luck :p
On August 23 2010 09:03 dj.ricecakes wrote: i like the rax fact rax port build tlo uses against protoss
2marines 1marauder 1hellion push tech on factory swap with starport reactor marines and maruaders from your 2 raxes banshees without cloak and hellion 2-4 banshee push with whatever you have should finish them off
This build is part of the inspiration for my build, but I felt like the reactor and/or tech lab and additional barracks reduced the efficiency of the build. Between barracks cost, tech lab cost, worker build time, you're looking at around 300/50 just in overhead that isn't being turned into units in the earlygame. It also allows immortals to be effective against marauders. Sticking to marine/banshee forces the robotics bay to be a wasteful structure - while also forcing them to get a robotics bay at the threat of cloaked units.
After that I research Warp gate and build a proxy pylon near the enemy.
I usually pressure T with 2 or 3 Stalkers to pressure T to build Marauders which messes up the T army composition then I transition to void ray with 6 to 7 Stalkers to finish T off.
Though as a Protoss player, I must also say damn you. :p At least I'll understand what's coming if I see something similar to this going on and can try to adapt.
You just need to make sure you have a bunker out before they get to your base. If you are really worried about it or scout 2gate + cyber + gas, you can put down the bunker before the factory, though in my experience, the bunker does get out in time. Good question though.
The fast two-stalker is actually one of the primary reasons I always build a bunker.
On August 23 2010 09:19 PhilipJWitow wrote: Wow really good and informative post.
Though as a Protoss player, I must also say damn you. :p At least I'll understand what's coming if I see something similar to this going on and can try to adapt.
As a protoss player too, I am like "Noooooooo Don't Bump this post!" Ugh, We Protoss players have to deal with EMPs, MMM balls and now this
You just need to make sure you have a bunker out before they get to your base. If you are really worried about it or scout 2gate + cyber + gas, you can put down the bunker before the factory, though in my experience, the bunker does get out in time. Good question though.
The fast two-stalker is actually one of the primary reasons I always build a bunker.
Ugh Bunkers, I hate bunker so much when I rush with fast stalkers. Stalkers are extremely good against Marines, I try to kill or soften many marines as possible before I rush to void rays. Would zealot pressure work and thwart this build?
thanks for the build... ive been trying out some banshee play with some success but this build is much more efficient.
didn't watch the replays but i will tonight but, do you ever use a viking and scans to snipe observers for cloak? or do mostly abandon cloak play when you see the robo bay go up?
On August 23 2010 09:30 silver_fox wrote: didn't watch the replays but i will tonight but, do you ever use a viking and scans to snipe observers for cloak? or do mostly abandon cloak play when you see the robo bay go up?
Neat idea, but if I see a robo bay or an observer, I usually try to capitalize on my economic lead and attack. Reasoning:
a) I can now drop all my mules, I no longer need to watch for DTs or waste gas on a raven in the short-term b) I am now up the cost of a robo bay because the opponent's robo bay contributes absolutely nothing to his military strength against my composition. c) I can continue to mass banshees given that storm is either not coming or delayed significantly d) I almost always gain additional economic advantage through the hellion drop
You should be able to produce equal or a more expensive army, and I'm confident the marine/banshee composition can beat any gateway composition.
You would probably have success with your way as well - I'd give it a try. Cloak is an expensive tech though.
Great post, been doing this in ladder today with a lot of success at mid diamond level. Ran into two hiccups so far, although I'm hardly an expert and could improve microwise.
1) Proxy void rays + whatever handful of stalkers they can bring with them. I'm finding on a lot of maps, maybe I'm just walling wrong, but not a lot of ramps can be "nicely" bunkered so that the VRs don't have a good angle to charge up on. The hit usually comes when my hellion drop is on the way so I don't have any scouting information that this is coming. I'll do a ton of damage with the hellions, but the void rays charge up and then I'm screwed.
2) Maps with a backdoor (blistering sands), or other clever way to get past your wallin, like on delta quadrant they can put a pylon on the low ground outside your backside expansion such that they can warp in stuff back there and come in from the back. I'm finding it difficult to hold off 4 gates or 3 gate robo type hyper aggression in this circumstance, and again my hellion drop will mess them up bad, but not dying myself becomes an issue.
Very very interesting Def giving this a try. I could see a stalker collsi squad putting the hurt on this tho if he gets an early collsi out that is. Im also scared of any fast obs seeing ur hellion drop. Hell only need two stalks on the mineral line to make the drop uneffective. The transition to BC's seems strong tho cuz tosses generally wouldnt expect that and itd force them to make a ton of stalks which a raven could nullify then you have a big ass ship that kills a ton of shit(yea almost a rhyme).
works wonderfully.. just make sure you have a strong wall when u drop, i suggest adding a 2nd bunker while your dropship is building just to be safe. if the toss isn't in their base when u drop its pretty much GG unless they have insane probe splitting abilities
You are now in what I call the 'triple threat' position. It is called 'triple threat' because it sounds kick-ass and makes the strategy sound like it's prepared for anything. But seriously, this is where your 2port allows you to be versatile.
Lol badass. I like your play a lot from random replays and tournaments that I've seen iEchoic, will definitely check this out ^^ New low-mid diamond player and I'm trying to branch out from ghost/marine to something more stable in TvP.
On August 23 2010 09:03 dj.ricecakes wrote: i like the rax fact rax port build tlo uses against protoss
2marines 1marauder 1hellion push tech on factory swap with starport reactor marines and maruaders from your 2 raxes banshees without cloak and hellion 2-4 banshee push with whatever you have should finish them off
This build is part of the inspiration for my build, but I felt like the reactor and/or tech lab and additional barracks reduced the efficiency of the build. Between barracks cost, tech lab cost, worker build time, you're looking at around 300/50 just in overhead that isn't being turned into units in the earlygame. It also allows immortals to be effective against marauders. Sticking to marine/banshee forces the robotics bay to be a wasteful structure - while also forcing them to get a robotics bay at the threat of cloaked units.
ill try it your way next game i get against a protoss and see which one i prefer
Man ive been messing around with hellion drop opening but it always seemed so flimsey and weak against any stargate opening the toss would go for. But this opening seems to be alot more stable, great post, can't wait to try it out.
You should submit this to liquipedia if you haven't already. Really well written well thought out build. I've done something similar myself (but instead with an expansion during the drop into mech play) but still, really good build. only solid way to block a rushed 3 hellion drop is to have at least 4 stalkers sitting in your mineral line and not have an expansion
The replay against nineteen really shows the strength of the marine-banshee composition. As a protoss player, that scares me. It was interesting to note that when the protoss army is a-moved, it targets the marines before the banshees.
The replay against time also scares me. I like to try to contain the terran with my army, and that hellion drop is so potent against an undefended base. I may have to tweak how I do things if this really catches on.
The replay against el paramedico shows, more than anything, how the build fails. He took good map control, was able to see when the drop and banshees were coming, and was able to react. If you watch that replay again closely, you'll see that for some reason...he just stops making probes. He has 2 bases with like, 1 probe per mineral patch. And then he tries to expand to the gold...so confusing.
If he had kept making probes, and kept macroing up his army, I think the marine-banshee army could have been overwhelmed pretty easily. That one colossi put a pretty big dent in your marines - just imagine if he had one or two more, and a few more stalkers.
Still...your army was extremely formidable even with the hellion drop and the banshee harass not working out - very nice
On August 23 2010 19:58 gerSelect wrote: Nice post. I just got some questions; when do you get an orbital command and do you get any upgrades for ur marines before pushing out?
The orbital command is standard, I probably forgot to mention it, it's right after rax finishes, thanks. I usually save marine upgrades until after I start constructing my expo so that I can maximize unit output and minimize tech costs. You can play around with this for sure.
Glad everyone is enjoying it, I'll look into putting it on liquipedia.
On August 23 2010 19:58 gerSelect wrote: Nice post. I just got some questions; when do you get an orbital command and do you get any upgrades for ur marines before pushing out?
The orbital command is standard, I probably forgot to mention it, it's right after rax finishes, thanks. I usually save marine upgrades until after I start constructing my expo so that I can maximize unit output and minimize tech costs. You can play around with this for sure.
Glad everyone is enjoying it, I'll look into putting it on liquipedia.
So you're going to ignore my suggestion? I realize you said you're done with Halo Wars, but you should just come back for a day. All the high-level players are leaving...
Nicely written guide sir. I am around 800 diamond and rising, and I have been watching rec after rec after rec looking for another strat to do vs Protoss that I liked other than the ghost/bio and occasional proxy maraduer that I am currently doing.
I look forward to the replays. What I like most even without the replays is that most every scenario is covered. I like the transtion into marauder/BC for templar, but I have had success with cloaked ghosts sniping energy before battle as well. Storm just sucks for us in any case
On August 23 2010 19:58 gerSelect wrote: Nice post. I just got some questions; when do you get an orbital command and do you get any upgrades for ur marines before pushing out?
The orbital command is standard, I probably forgot to mention it, it's right after rax finishes, thanks. I usually save marine upgrades until after I start constructing my expo so that I can maximize unit output and minimize tech costs. You can play around with this for sure.
Glad everyone is enjoying it, I'll look into putting it on liquipedia.
So you're going to ignore my suggestion? I realize you said you're done with Halo Wars, but you should just come back for a day. All the high-level players are leaving...
I don't have an xbox anymore, mine died, sorry. I'll come back for Halo Wars 2 - or even better, AoE4.
From the protoss point of view, a quick void ray/stalker push at the front door of the terran will cause a lot of problems for a terran using this build. I played against a terran using this build within the past couple weeks on Blistering Sands (the terran actually might have been iEchoic, but I didn't save the replay). My gateway force with 1 void ray arrived at the terran's front door right as the medivac was\heading to my base. I almost killed the medivac with my attacking force and left a couple stalkers at my main to shoot down the medivac when it arrived. Anyway, the void ray and gateway troops proceeded to burn down the front door of the terran fairly easily merely by adjusting the angle of attack away from the bunker to get the void ray charged. Eight or nine marines isn't enough to beat 4 stalkers, a couple zealots, a sentry, and a fully charged void ray. The terran might have done a little better without the wall in, but then he'd be opening himself to heavy 4gate pressure.
hey xdaunt jw what was your bo? was it just a 1 gate quick vr that broke the front of the terran build? did the terran pull scv's to repair the bunker?
very strong build. might i suggest getting a raven out as soon as possible? you can deny those pesky observers and also multiple PDDs would own stalkers (what 99% toss players produce when they see banshees) virtually guaranteeing you destroy their natural expansion.
On August 24 2010 13:59 Sabresandiego wrote: How does this build do against other races. What are problems with this build against other races, and how can the build adapt?
Can this build hold off fast siege push, or fast banshee in TvT?
Can it beat voidray or DT rush?
How about baneling all in, or 1 base mutas?
Thanks for info, I am around 800 diamond and still learning.
I'd imagine that against Zerg the risk of your Medivac being spotted by Overlords during its approach would make the drop much more risky, plus the Zerg army is much more mobile over creep than Protoss, your Hellions could be surrounded by lings in seconds whereas your Hellions can keep torching Probes for several seconds even after the Protoss army arrives. Successful or not, after the drop it doesn't seem like Marine Banshee would fare very well against Muta Bling.
Against Terran the drop could work but again, Marine Banshee seems like it would fail vs anything including Vikings, Thors, Tanks, etc.
Protoss are uniquely susceptible to the build because not only are they the most prone to the drop, but they have no reliable answer to 4 Banshees + Marines at the time it would come. Storm will not be ready, Collosi will be focused out instantly, and the Nineteen replay shows what happens to a Stalker Sentry army. Really the killer seems to be that Toss needs to spend money for Robo + Obs to make sure they don't get owned by Cloak - but Terran can always forgo cloak and be "up" the cost of the Robo + Obs (since nothing else from Robo is useful vs Marine Banshee).
I've been doing a variation of this build - a stimmed marine+banshee push with a transition into tank/marine/banshee - so I'll have to give this version a try =D
Hmm I should try this O.O. I'm personally not a huge fan of hellions in TvP but hell, I've barely used em in this matchup. But what about maps with stupidly small mains like xel naga caverns. There isn't much space to get around to the mineral line.
a good counter to this build is zealot/phoenix. @ the first drop you use your phoenixes to lift the hellions and kill the medivac. this will also hold off the push which usually consists of 15 marines 5 banshees and 3 hellions @ around the 7 minute mark (you will have 10 zealots 1 sentry and 5 phoenixes). if T goes for vikings get stalkers. not saying you will win outright but P will have a small advantage.
i tested this on b/o tester and unit tester to confirm.
P.S. T will have 4-6 rines still alive after if he does the 5 banshee push so you will need to warp in units during the encounter.
Nowayouthere August 24 2010 16:27. Posts 1 PM Profile Quote # uhm i am maybe just too dumb to get the point but if the the toss goes templar after robo isn't feedback quit strong again banshees?
If P gets HT's by the time T does the push (which is unlikely as the push is timed so that it comes before HT's), T can just back up because he will have a CC building as he attacks. then he justs bunkers up and is ahead macro-wise. but yes if T were to attack he would lose because most banshees will have over their HP in mana which means feedback will 1 shot them.
The one thing ppl seem to forget with this build, is that you dont need storm for your templars. You stated that your push will come before storm is ready, but templars can also feedback banshees from the very start, and then morph into quite powerful archons.
On August 24 2010 17:56 Viruuus wrote: The one thing ppl seem to forget with this build, is that you dont need storm for your templars. You stated that your push will come before storm is ready, but templars can also feedback banshees from the very start, and then morph into quite powerful archons.
This is true - but if you see twilight council early you should get cloak. You can drain all your energy using cloak. Good points though, I like thinking about this stuff so I can refine my build.
On August 24 2010 17:19 CharlieMurphy wrote: I just wanted to say that I hate your name for some reason. Also, TL doesn't like people naming builds after themselves anymore.
Sorry my name doesn't make you happy, captain Debbie Downer. If the naming is against the rules, feel free to rename it mods, I don't really care, just wanted a title.
Sounds like a lot of people are having troubles with void rays - I updated the FAQ to address this. I am confident this stops void rays if you play it right, but it does take some practice.
After watching the replays I have to say this seems to be a pretty good strat. I really like how the banshees force the robo for detection through the threatening of cloak, while it deals perfectly with robo units. Will have to try it out next TvP, thanks a ton for sharing :D
Nice build, as a toss, this is exactly the kind of strat I've been scared of, thankfully nobody really uses it yet, probably because they're addicted to bioballs and tanks. I think banshees are highly underused as a general army unit against protoss, too.
I've played against this a few times and its very strong. A lot of toss players open 2 gate robo these days and rely on immortals to stop the very common early game marauder pressure and immortals are very very weak against this build.
When you do the timing push make sure to focus the stalkers. Stalkers die very fast to banshees and stimmed marines. Its pretty common for them to have a decent amount of zealots since gas is going towards teching to templar at this point so if you can focus down the stalkers your 4 banshees will be able to destroy everything else.
Only thing I don't like is skipping cloak. Its rare for a toss to have more than one observer this early in the game (7-8 mins) and if you catch it out of position (observers are slow) or snipe it with a scan the cloak more than pays for itself. Also you can avoid getting one shot by feedback like you mentioned. Keep in mind the more observers you force him to build the less gas he will have which should result in less stalkers. 1 observer is 2 stalkers worth of gas
I think its probably worth it to send one of the banshees to his mineral line when you are pushing. This will get at least one of his observers and 2-3 stalkers to the back of the base so they won't be there when you move up. A lot of players are also lazy and will move their entire control group back to deal with the banshee. True your push will be weaker without the one banshee but it makes it a lot harder to defend overall I think. If he sees the frontal push coming and is too focused there the banshee will possibly kill tons of probes too.
On August 24 2010 13:27 jisaeltl wrote: hey xdaunt jw what was your bo? was it just a 1 gate quick vr that broke the front of the terran build? did the terran pull scv's to repair the bunker?
It was 10 gate => core when finished => stargate+gateway => void ray. I always 10 gate on two player maps. I don't specifically recall whether the terran was able to get scvs to the bunker. It's a long distance from the mineral line to the choke on Blistering Sands. Once a void ray is charged, it kills buildings very fast, especially if stalkers are also attacking.
Wow! Just played this build and it performed as promised and more! Thanks so much for the addition to my shaky TvP. Since none of your replays get that far, did you plan on adding on a third base, during the transition to BC's? I felt like I could pretty easily build another CC during the push.
Will be trying this out, if it's anywhere near as good as it seems at a competitive level I'll be very happy to add it in my deck of BOs although it's definitely not something I would try on some maps. And of course you will get full credit
A word for the wise tho, I think right now one must be careful about assuming that other races have no "viable" answers to some builds. I think they merely just haven't been discovered or are underused. As someone pointed out Phoenix opening is definitely a soft if not hard counter to this. I think it's also a mistake to assume a Robo bay can't do anything for P, after or before getting an observer he could get a Phasing Prism and answer with a mass drop/warp-in of his own as soon as you move out of your base, turning your strat against you. I can easily see a skilled toss blocking your ramp with Sentries from within, locking your ground army out and instant GG.
All I can say is thanks for this build. Holy shit is it strong. Protoss just gets crushed under foot with this. Saw a few rage quits and got BM'd with a "FACKING CHEAP" rage quit.
I find it actually works quite well against Terran as well since most expect Tank/Viking or Banshee so they aren't expecting a Hellion drop which wipes out half their mineral line if not more at times. That followed up by cloaked Banshees and bioball slaps them silly. The Terran that do fight this off leads to a long game but since you bring out the Fusion Core so quickly the other player doesn't have much of a chance because they are already behind economically.
I've used it against Zerg a few times even though I knew it was risky. I wanted to see how Zerg would react and maybe try mold this build to attack Zerg as well. On certain maps it works great, like Steppes of War, because of the angle you can use to get to their mineral line. Overall the sheer amount of Zerglings they have usually stops this from doing too much damage though. Transitioning into something else works great but Zerg is my worst MU so I pretty much lose all the time regardless. Back to the drawing board I go.
On August 25 2010 09:06 SoFFacet wrote: Why do you wall in vs Protoss?
It prevents zealots from being able to attack the bunker - and stalkers/sentries will never outdamage repairing SCVs on a ramp. I don't wall on kulas, though.
As a mediocre diamond random player without a lot of time to play, informative guides such as these are the reason I am successful. I don't have time to experiment on my own, so these guides give my play some flexibility. My TvP has been limited to heavy bio until I read this guide. It is exceptionally well written, thanks iEchoic!
On August 25 2010 08:57 iEchoic wrote: I added an additional replay to help people who have been having trouble with void ray openings, as this was a popular complaint.
That's one thing I never saw today. Any Protoss I fought I saw zero VR's. Although by the time a VR would hit I usually had probably 6-7 marines which would eat a single VR so interested in seeing your replays.
One thing I like about this build though is that is really forces you to pay attention to your macro. If you're off then the whole build is mistimed which hurts.
The last replay I think shows many things. First it was a very good harass by the hellions, 12 probes! Second, your army kinda got its butt kicked by Zealot Phoenix, which has been discussed in this thread as a possible counter. Third, Toss neglects detection and instaloses to Cloak.
I used this build quite a lot. It is quite awesome. I usually get later banshees (expand while 2 port in progress lol) but it does help lol. Im still poor at 350 Diamond but this build is darn good.
Question iEchoic. How would you deal with a cannon in the mineral line?
I ran into that this morning. That nearly made the drop completely worthless as I only got 2-3 kills instead of the usual 7-8 or more. Just wondering if there's something better to do at that point. Sac the medivac maybe to draw the cannon's fire to get more kills?
Luckily I look around at TL forums in strategy section a lot ! Been getting this build against me a few times (75% loss against this build) and now I know where T are struggling I am happy you posted it here on TL :D
Regarding the Scan for DT, why not invest in a engineering bay and 1 turret close to your bunker? If the scan could have been a mule, you'll save some mineral cost. 225minerals + mule or scan.
@inflicte24 : it's not possible to directly value them against each-others. Spending 125+100 minerals (also factor in lost mining time for scv building engi+turret) means that other structures/units have to be delayed.
It's also a risk to not have those 50 energy if he has managed to extend pylon power over a ledge and sends a hallucination or elsewise that gives vision and warps in a dt away from the entrance.
@OP : nice read and a good strategy. I fear however that as soon as protoss start to catch on and finds some safe builds that manages to implement forge/cannon near minerals, that it will become much harder to execute your build.
On August 25 2010 21:43 SkullOne wrote: Question iEchoic. How would you deal with a cannon in the mineral line?
I ran into that this morning. That nearly made the drop completely worthless as I only got 2-3 kills instead of the usual 7-8 or more. Just wondering if there's something better to do at that point. Sac the medivac maybe to draw the cannon's fire to get more kills?
Not many people just build a cannon in their mineral line for the heck of it. Probably you got scouted somehow. If not and it was truly a spontaneous cannon, you should still be able to do alright, 3 kills is still fine considering he wasted so many minerals for the Forge + Cannon.
Personally from what i've realised, all it takes is just 3worker kills to make it DEFINITELY worth the 3hellions.
each hellion 100minerals, x3 thats 300minerals used. However if you factor in worker cost+mining time lost,as long as you kill at least 3 probes(150 minerals cost), i would say that harassment has already paid off. This assumption is as long as u dont lose that Medivac,as i found it quite useful if i just drop off the hellions and keep the medivac alive, i can use it in that timing push.
not to mention what that harass does to the enemy player's mindset and tempo
On August 25 2010 22:46 SoFFacet wrote:Not many people just build a cannon in their mineral line for the heck of it. Probably you got scouted somehow. If not and it was truly a spontaneous cannon, you should still be able to do alright, 3 kills is still fine considering he wasted so many minerals for the Forge + Cannon.
No scout. I checked for that in the replay. I think he did it just on a whim because of the use of Banshee's against P now especially for harassment.
I don't see this happening often but I could see more Protoss turn to this since it would limit the Hellion drop harass and Banshee harass.
I tried it out yesterday, and it worked like a charm. With my terrible terrible micro I was still able to down 12 probes and get out there safely without any loss. Expanded without trouble and the marine/tank drop that followed was gg.
I really like the easy transition into either heavy medivac drop play or cloaked banshees. I will try this against terran and see if I can move my TvT away from the dreadful viking+tank play.
So, I was discussing this with Pholon and orb a bit while writing up the Liquipedia article, and this has at least 1 hard counter, and 2 or 3 soft counters.
Hard counter: Blink Stalkers off 10 pylon/10 gate Soft counters: 2/3 gate push, Immortal/Stalker, Feedback -> Pimpest Play (suggested by Pholon as a counter-counter): get a Ghost and EMP your Banshees
On August 25 2010 21:43 SkullOne wrote: Question iEchoic. How would you deal with a cannon in the mineral line?
I ran into that this morning. That nearly made the drop completely worthless as I only got 2-3 kills instead of the usual 7-8 or more. Just wondering if there's something better to do at that point. Sac the medivac maybe to draw the cannon's fire to get more kills?
If they made a forge + cannon, then they are already behind even before you get to their base. 2-3 kills (should be more really) puts you even further ahead. Saccing the medivac is a poor idea as you can use it for the push or to make drops in expos if game continues.
Thanks iEchoic for the clear and thorough guide. I am excited to try this out, I am sick of my current vs.Toss builds and none of them are much like this.
I had been enjoying the 1/1/1 FE with a raven vs. Toss lately, until a 4gate blink stalker build hit me where it hurt just as I FE'd, lol.
I don't agree with your Robotics facility is a waste assessment. I typically build and utilize a warp prism for drops, expansion scouting and warp ins after I get my observer out, and an observer is much more than just a detection tool, it is essential for active protoss scouting.
You can time Stalker drops/warp ins in a mineral line and be just as effective as hellion drops and since your build lacks marauders stalkers are extremely powerful against it.
The problem is most Protoss tend to go stalker heavy against terran already since it is the only way to fight mass marauders or reapers early game. This makes effective dropping, especially multiple times against good players difficult.
It seems like a well formed strat, but like many popular strats I believe it has an easy counter when properly scouted and anticipated.
I'll reserve final judgement for when I actually see someone use it against me.
I've heard so much about Korean 4 gate and these other strats, but when I see them in game they are terrible or just poorly executed.
My TvP build is somewhat similiar however the main difference is that i scan when my starport is done to see if i go cloaked banshee or raven, and if i go raven i push when it have 150-160 energy with marines + 5-6 banshees. if i can get to the ramp with pdd it's hard to stop since i will have enough energy for 2nd pdd after 20-30 sek in the battle. Great build!
On August 26 2010 02:34 Kanaz wrote: My TvP build is somewhat similiar however the main difference is that i scan when my starport is done to see if i go cloaked banshee or raven, and if i go raven i push when it have 150-160 energy with marines + 5-6 banshees. if i can get to the ramp with pdd it's hard to stop since i will have enough energy for 2nd pdd after 20-30 sek in the battle. Great build!
With a push that late, say hello to storm and feedback. The whole point of this build is to hit the Protoss before he can counter your entire army with just one unit.
Shaithis United States. August 26 2010 03:58. Posts 212 With a push that late, say hello to storm and feedback. The whole point of this build is to hit the Protoss before he can counter your entire army with just one unit.
The idea of the build is to decide when your push is gonna happen after you put the first starport up. if he went for robo you can push with 4-5 banshees before he will get to templars, since you are pumping with two ports. if he went straight for stargate or templar tech you go in after you have researched cloak. I find it pretty solid so far.
great post iechoic, but is this the same bo that tlo did against whitera during the iem? he did this build vs 2 gate/3gate robo i think, and beat whitera pretty handedly.
On August 26 2010 07:56 imyzhang wrote: great post iechoic, but is this the same bo that tlo did against whitera during the iem? he did this build vs 2 gate/3gate robo i think, and beat whitera pretty handedly.
It's similar to TLO's build. I think iEchoic even mentioned that in a post somewhere in the thread.
Really nice guide, i tried it couple of times now. Workes nice until the point where i should be switching to BCes. At that time if toss has a good number of blink stalkers with some templar support, just demolishes the mix of BC/raven/banshee/marine army mainly because HTs just feedback everything and blink stalkers do the rest. So how would we counter that kind of mix and not trying to lose the momentum of this air-push we have going on? My idea was more hellions into the mix to kill HTs, but it's not really working the best.
Thanks a lot for posting this, so far I have tried it 5-6 times, and the only game it didn´t work was during a FFA when I got thordropped in the middle xD
On August 26 2010 07:19 fantomex wrote: This is worth putting on liquipedia, at least as a stub build.
It's already in my sandbox (User:Tofucake/sandbox/iEchoic), though I am going to be testing this thoroughly before we move it into the Strategy section.
Ahh, I was actually trying something like this myself, but I was having trouble getting a concrete build. I was really favouring fast raven/bashees against toss but seeing this 2 starport play in a solid BO makes me happy =D. I'll be sure to try this out later on, as this is exactly where my thinking on TvP has been going lately anyways
Been playing a bit with this build since my TvP is by far my worst MU. Has worked amazingly, makes me really appreciate banshees, which I hated quite a bit earlier. The synergy these 3 units have together is amazing and the timing of both the drop and the push is superb.
Thanks a lot for the post; really well written, and the opening itself seems fairly solid. Just a question, have you played around with the idea of getting 1st a raven, then start getting 2xBanshees? I see you mention early ravens only if DTs are present, but since you push with 4 banshees+marines (will be 3 banshees+1 raven+marines with an early raven), the pdd+turret may be worth the change. Plus you can prevent early scout from observers with it, and use the scan you usually save for a additional mule or a explore scan.
Did a 4th banshee give you better results in general?
PD: Will be great if you get a +20 mins game replay!
I like banshee marine play in TvP but i have always added a single raven for PDD stops stalkers and phoneix which are 2 of the biggets threats to the banshees ... has the side effect of sniping obs or if they tech to dts becomes crucial
I think getting 2 fast stalker can put pressure on the Terran player forcing him to build more marines then transitioning to VR to finish him off. It could be my opponent is bad but nether less it was funny how raged at the end.
On August 27 2010 01:35 john92 wrote: I think getting 2 fast stalker can put pressure on the Terran player forcing him to build more marines then transitioning to VR to finish him off. It could be my opponent is bad but nether less it was funny how raged at the end.
I'll check the rep when I get home (at work right now), but with this build you're constantly pumping marines. So shouldn't those two fast Stalkers be walking right into a bunker full of Marines with more marines just standing around?
On August 27 2010 01:35 john92 wrote: I think getting 2 fast stalker can put pressure on the Terran player forcing him to build more marines then transitioning to VR to finish him off. It could be my opponent is bad but nether less it was funny how raged at the end.
That guy didn't build a bunker to stop the stalkers, he also built two marines and then stopped and got 2nd gas too early. The bunker is 100% essential to stop stalkers.
On August 26 2010 14:27 Svizcy wrote: Really nice guide, i tried it couple of times now. Workes nice until the point where i should be switching to BCes. At that time if toss has a good number of blink stalkers with some templar support, just demolishes the mix of BC/raven/banshee/marine army mainly because HTs just feedback everything and blink stalkers do the rest. So how would we counter that kind of mix and not trying to lose the momentum of this air-push we have going on? My idea was more hellions into the mix to kill HTs, but it's not really working the best.
good day, svizcy
You're spending too much time on heavy air after he teched to the counter. Add in tanks or a nice marauder + ghost ball to help deal with the stalkers. Also, sounds like you are not really getting a good drop off if he is able to keep up with your macro.
Hellions are good vs HTs, but not vs stalkers. Rauders and tanks are the only real optionis
This looks like a pretty nifty build, and you made a really great write up for it! I'm going to try this out asap. My only question is will this work on maps with back doors, i.e. Blistering Sands or Kulas?
On August 26 2010 14:27 Svizcy wrote: Really nice guide, i tried it couple of times now. Workes nice until the point where i should be switching to BCes. At that time if toss has a good number of blink stalkers with some templar support, just demolishes the mix of BC/raven/banshee/marine army mainly because HTs just feedback everything and blink stalkers do the rest. So how would we counter that kind of mix and not trying to lose the momentum of this air-push we have going on? My idea was more hellions into the mix to kill HTs, but it's not really working the best.
good day, svizcy
You're spending too much time on heavy air after he teched to the counter. Add in tanks or a nice marauder + ghost ball to help deal with the stalkers. Also, sounds like you are not really getting a good drop off if he is able to keep up with your macro.
Hellions are good vs HTs, but not vs stalkers. Rauders and tanks are the only real optionis
That makes sense, I've been having a lot of trouble transitioning out of that banshee marine play into BCs. Bio-mech sounds more reasonable in many situations, using the 2 starports for medivac only.
On August 26 2010 14:27 Svizcy wrote: Really nice guide, i tried it couple of times now. Workes nice until the point where i should be switching to BCes. At that time if toss has a good number of blink stalkers with some templar support, just demolishes the mix of BC/raven/banshee/marine army mainly because HTs just feedback everything and blink stalkers do the rest. So how would we counter that kind of mix and not trying to lose the momentum of this air-push we have going on? My idea was more hellions into the mix to kill HTs, but it's not really working the best.
good day, svizcy
You're spending too much time on heavy air after he teched to the counter. Add in tanks or a nice marauder + ghost ball to help deal with the stalkers. Also, sounds like you are not really getting a good drop off if he is able to keep up with your macro.
Hellions are good vs HTs, but not vs stalkers. Rauders and tanks are the only real optionis
That makes sense, I've been having a lot of trouble transitioning out of that banshee marine play into BCs. Bio-mech sounds more reasonable in many situations, using the 2 starports for medivac only.
I've only had to transition to BC's twice so far and the second time I didn't even need to build any as my push forced the GG. Here's how I transition, hopefully it works for you or you can improve on it.
If the drop went well and the first push did plenty of damage (take natural during push) but didn't force a GG then I drop the Fusion Core at the same time I take my third base which is usually during my second push. My second push comes quickly after the first. The second push is a mix of MM and Banshee from 3 rax (two tech, 1 react) and 2 port. After I take my third if needed I'll drop a third port to keep banshee/medevac production going while BC's are building on the original two ports. MM is constant production. I push again after first 2 BC's are out. That's when that one game ended. If it hadn't ended I was in the process of taking my fourth base to ramp up production.
On August 26 2010 14:27 Svizcy wrote: Really nice guide, i tried it couple of times now. Workes nice until the point where i should be switching to BCes. At that time if toss has a good number of blink stalkers with some templar support, just demolishes the mix of BC/raven/banshee/marine army mainly because HTs just feedback everything and blink stalkers do the rest. So how would we counter that kind of mix and not trying to lose the momentum of this air-push we have going on? My idea was more hellions into the mix to kill HTs, but it's not really working the best.
good day, svizcy
You're spending too much time on heavy air after he teched to the counter. Add in tanks or a nice marauder + ghost ball to help deal with the stalkers. Also, sounds like you are not really getting a good drop off if he is able to keep up with your macro.
Hellions are good vs HTs, but not vs stalkers. Rauders and tanks are the only real optionis
That makes sense, I've been having a lot of trouble transitioning out of that banshee marine play into BCs. Bio-mech sounds more reasonable in many situations, using the 2 starports for medivac only.
BCs are a strong and logical transition, but they are simply not cost-effective vs many stalkers. That said, stalkers are not really a great unit for him to start building as a reaction to your push, as banshees are decent at killing them and it is commonly understood that stalkers blow chunks vs most Terran comps / transitions.
Alright, I've played this build in my last +10 TvPs and I can say it is extremely effective, however i had trouble with 2 things.
1) 3gate stalker push. This comes right around the time my 2nd starport begins construction and my 3 hellion drop is underway with constant reinforcements from a proxy pylon this takes down the bunker before my SCVs come to repair and Stalkers tear through Marines if he does a bit of micro. Key to holding this off is to have a proper wall in (best is 1 bunker in between 2 supply depots imo) and if you see that you cannot hold the front to retreat all your troops and pull all SCVs to serve as meatshields, if you survive this push you are at a great advantage since you (hopefully) roasted all his drones.
2) voidgay push. This also comes around the time the drop happens, however the thing is you have to SCOUT it. Scouting is critical against those voidrays. Since I have no reaper in this build like i do in my good old 3rax that gives me cheap scouting i put one scan that barely touches his gas geysers and hopefully the rest of his base while sending one SCV in the front to see what his unit comp is made of / how many Gateways he has in the front) if it is 1 or 2 Gateways and 2 gas with mostly gas light units (i.e. zealot heavy, though this doesnt have to be since he can have anywhere from 1-3 VR if he has chronoboost saved up) you can be almost 100% sure its void rays and I get 2 Vikings (like stated in the OP) to fend them off. Viking micro should be known, make sure you barely get in range and then fly away again. If you can manage not to let them get charged up you have won the game since he invested so much in those expensive VRs. Good Protosses will split your forces by f.e. putting 1 VR with their ground forces in the front and 2 VR a little split apart in the back of your base. This requires good multitasking and reaction, the best counter is to see it coming and be prepared.
When trying this build I often felt in the dark and since it is quite fragile in the first 8 minutes of the game scouting is super-important. I just felt that the OP did not reflect upon that enough, since I think it is a very strong build even if scouted. Also BC pew pewing all over the opponent is awesome :D
On August 27 2010 08:31 ChickenLips wrote: Alright, I've played this build in my last +10 TvPs and I can say it is extremely effective, however i had trouble with 2 things.
1) 3gate stalker push. This comes right around the time my 2nd starport begins construction and my 3 hellion drop is underway with constant reinforcements from a proxy pylon this takes down the bunker before my SCVs come to repair and Stalkers tear through Marines if he does a bit of micro. Key to holding this off is to have a proper wall in (best is 1 bunker in between 2 supply depots imo) and if you see that you cannot hold the front to retreat all your troops and pull all SCVs to serve as meatshields, if you survive this push you are at a great advantage since you (hopefully) roasted all his drones.
2) voidgay push. This also comes around the time the drop happens, however the thing is you have to SCOUT it. Scouting is critical against those voidrays. Since I have no reaper in this build like i do in my good old 3rax that gives me cheap scouting i put one scan that barely touches his gas geysers and hopefully the rest of his base while sending one SCV in the front to see what his unit comp is made of / how many Gateways he has in the front) if it is 1 or 2 Gateways and 2 gas with mostly gas light units (i.e. zealot heavy, though this doesnt have to be since he can have anywhere from 1-3 VR if he has chronoboost saved up) you can be almost 100% sure its void rays and I get 2 Vikings (like stated in the OP) to fend them off. Viking micro should be known, make sure you barely get in range and then fly away again. If you can manage not to let them get charged up you have won the game since he invested so much in those expensive VRs. Good Protosses will split your forces by f.e. putting 1 VR with their ground forces in the front and 2 VR a little split apart in the back of your base. This requires good multitasking and reaction, the best counter is to see it coming and be prepared.
When trying this build I often felt in the dark and since it is quite fragile in the first 8 minutes of the game scouting is super-important. I just felt that the OP did not reflect upon that enough, since I think it is a very strong build even if scouted. Also BC pew pewing all over the opponent is awesome :D
Can you post a replay of a game where you got hit with a 3 gate stalker push? i haven't seen one yet in my matches but by the time my second port is going up I already have a bunker and at least 4-5 other marines and even a banshee on the way. Just want to see how your timings match up to mine.
I crushed another toss with this again tonight. He couldn't believe the constant pressure. i think his comment was "god damn! GG".
Even got this to work against a Zerg on LT tonight. Granted he did a very early pool but man is the transition to thors/tanks easy with this build. Just wish the drop did more damage. i think i'll have to really play with this build and see if I can figure a way to get an even quicker 3 hellion drop for use against zerg without it needing to be situational like map or early pool rush.
I really like this build, haven't got it down flawlessly yet, but have had a few nice wins with it, although that said, I am only low diamond. Oh, and very well written guide, thanks!
On August 27 2010 15:43 Dadant wrote: A few replays of Morrow testing this build out v DuckloadRa on http://sc2rep.net/ id tag 1655-1659, some high skill level used here ofc.
very interesting matches, in game 4 you can see how this build (minus the hellion drop) gets picked apart by a few stalkers and sentries even though morrow is 15 food ahead of his opponent who already expanded when the push happens. The first push and the micro is very important it seems. I also think that a few marauders as meatshields are needed since the do so well vs stalkers who are the #1 early and early mid game threat to this build.
On August 27 2010 15:43 Dadant wrote: A few replays of Morrow testing this build out v DuckloadRa on http://sc2rep.net/ id tag 1655-1659, some high skill level used here ofc.
very interesting matches, in game 4 you can see how this build (minus the hellion drop) gets picked apart by a few stalkers and sentries even though morrow is 15 food ahead of his opponent who already expanded when the push happens. The first push and the micro is very important it seems. I also think that a few marauders as meatshields are needed since the do so well vs stalkers who are the #1 early and early mid game threat to this build.
I'm feeling the same way after trying it, that you need to move away from the mass marines unless you smell voidrays. Even 1rax marauder provides some needed HP shields for the banshees, and i think would benefit the first push immensely. You have time afaik to get that techlab and throw out 4+ marauders before the push comes as you can see the starport (or rather lack of) with the hellion drop.
I will try this build with a variation when I get home. If I scout a lot of gateways I'll get my second gas after the factory so i can support marauders + banshees (maybe even cloak lol) and get stimpack. I might even go for a super early second gas since everything that is awesome vs. protoss is so gas heavy (marauders with stim/CS + banshees w/ cloak + ravens for PDD) and I can just dump the rest of my minerals into marines and an expo + more barracks. Gas is super important and if i want to transition into BCs having a nice stockpile of gas is never a bad thing since 2 base gas is not enough to sustain constant 2prot BC and 3rax Marauder production without cutting either of the two slightly.
The main problem I see is that the marines are just too fragile to fight a decent Protoss force that micros a bit and uses FF.
On August 27 2010 15:43 Dadant wrote: A few replays of Morrow testing this build out v DuckloadRa on http://sc2rep.net/ id tag 1655-1659, some high skill level used here ofc.
very interesting matches, in game 4 you can see how this build (minus the hellion drop) gets picked apart by a few stalkers and sentries even though morrow is 15 food ahead of his opponent who already expanded when the push happens. The first push and the micro is very important it seems. I also think that a few marauders as meatshields are needed since the do so well vs stalkers who are the #1 early and early mid game threat to this build.
Actually morrow is 4 food ahead and has 4 food still en route and taking into account the diff between toss and terran mechanics, morrow has 9 food training in his production buildings(and ra has 1 more worker). As the army tab indicates, ra has stronger army and in reality more food count.
If we go to game 1 fx, morrow has a lot stronger army when his push comes due to the wasted resources of ra's 'attack'.
I think the only build that seems to manhandle this one is blinking stalkers like we saw in the 2nd game. Anyway a raven as the first unit from the labbed port + replace rax in wall with another bunker might help?(raven for spotting the obs so stalkers don't get potshots and pdd ofc). Then the banshee's can go offensive and try to snipe a few probes, pylons or whatever? I'm wondering though, if a drop would actually be possible vs as good player as ra. His obs seems to come out just early enough to reach t's base(the 1st game being the exception) and *should* spot what's up...
The problem with an early raven is that it's equivalent to 2 banshees (6 food) of gas cost, and is a non-attacking unit. If you are forced to build one, you may as well expand and keep harassing b/c I guarantee that you will not be able to push out.
On August 27 2010 22:52 Shaithis wrote: The problem with an early raven is that it's equivalent to 2 banshees (6 food) of gas cost, and is a non-attacking unit. If you are forced to build one, you may as well expand and keep harassing b/c I guarantee that you will not be able to push out.
Well in my games, I do have 100 gas extra(300 gas when both ports have tech lab) , so in reality by my execution atleast, it'd just cost me 1 banshee, since my gas income is high enough to produce 2x banshees forever.
Edit: This is ofc without cloak. If you are picking cloak, then you'd not have enough gas for a raven
I'm guessing it wasn't mentioned because it's a given, but one thing I would add in the case of BC transition is building a raven or two while the FC is building up. I find that PDD is mandatory vs stalkers, especially if you're going to be aggressive and fight on his ground. It also helps killing stray observers for your remaining banshees, or eventual ghosts (to emp/snipe templars).
The build MorroW and WhiteRa were using is a bit different, but similar.
If any diamond P players want to help me test the build against a few things (like blink stalkers), feel free to add me (iEchoic.417). I haven't ran into much stalker-heavy play on ladder yet.
On August 28 2010 08:07 iEchoic wrote: The build MorroW and WhiteRa were using is a bit different, but similar.
Yer sorry I saw it had no drop in it, however justed wondered if this might be where the build would goto next? As it justs focuses on massing the marines and the banshee's.
On August 27 2010 22:52 Shaithis wrote: The problem with an early raven is that it's equivalent to 2 banshees (6 food) of gas cost, and is a non-attacking unit. If you are forced to build one, you may as well expand and keep harassing b/c I guarantee that you will not be able to push out.
actually using a pdd when attacking works wonders against both stalkers and phoenix, meaning your banshees are that much safer
i have been using a build very similar to this, but opening with the korean proxy fact + 2 marine marauder opening. this hellion drop seems more stable but i will have to experiment
what timing do you suggest to get stim/combat shields i would assume stim comes first
I was wondering, why not get the banshee first and then the drop ship? you could have a cloaked banshee in the mineral line at around 8/8:30 at the latest, and snipe of probably a good number of probes (~6?7?) before he gets a detector. Whereas on your build, if the initial drop fails to kill probes and the protoss went for a robo facility anyway he might have a probe or two ready, neutralizing your banshees biggest advantage.
On August 28 2010 16:13 TriniMasta wrote: For the robo thing, wouldn't most people get observers to hold off banshees?
when you get banshees, you don't necessarily have to use them for cloak+killing workers. You just keep them with your army because they do insane damage. The only antiair protoss has when he has a robo are stalker+sentry
A couple of things I think could improve your build 1. When dropping hellions, hit 'd' then click on your medivac to execute a moving drop which will give your drop more tempo 2. Add your extra rax earlier to streamline the build edit: just after your first production cycle on the ports imo 3. If you put a tech lab on your first rax after bunker, you can get stim and hit a much earlier timing attack window than your pre-storm attack. This means a 25 second delay in building marines which is 1 marine, but the dps from stim makes up for this loss imo 4. Consider making a raven first to both deny scouting from an observer and to build up energy for pdd in your initial attack
On August 28 2010 16:58 alphafuzard wrote: A couple of things I think could improve your build 1. When dropping hellions, hit 'd' then click on your medivac to execute a moving drop which will give your drop more tempo
Can you explain this a bit more? I always wanted to do the move while dropping trick. What exactly do I press? I usually click my medivac and press d on a location. Then it drops it one by one.
On August 28 2010 16:58 alphafuzard wrote: A couple of things I think could improve your build 1. When dropping hellions, hit 'd' then click on your medivac to execute a moving drop which will give your drop more tempo
Can you explain this a bit more? I always wanted to do the move while dropping trick. What exactly do I press? I usually click my medivac and press d on a location. Then it drops it one by one.
while the medivac is moving, hit 'd' and left click the dropship and it will unload them one by one without stopping
I'm an 800ish Diamond Random player, and I've tried this strategy in several of my past games; I've also run into problems against mass Stalkers. In this game, I didn't execute the build perfectly (I'm Random so I don't play TvP too often) and went double Refinery early due to Probe harassment delaying the first one, however, I think the general idea of the build is executed.
In this game, my opponent gets some decent Probe harassment done, and is able to scout my Factory/Bunker build before I kill his Probe. His response is to throw down a quick Robotics Facility while fast expanding off of 1 Gate. My drop is successful, and we remain even in food count despite his fast expo. But, his observer scouts my dual Starports with Tech Labs, and he pumps Observers from his Robotics Facility, and sits 4 Stalkers in both his Mineral lines. I get up an expo myself and make some Ravens while mixing in some Marauders, but my Marine/Hellion/Banshee/Raven army gets raped by mass Stalkers with three Sentries and one Immortal.
I forgot about the Medivac that I used to drop, my macro slipped a bit after the Banshee fail, and I'm only an ~85apm player, but I'm not sure if I prefer this over a standard 1/1/1 opening.
On August 29 2010 00:15 PsychicDog wrote: I'm an 800ish Diamond Random player, and I've tried this strategy in several of my past games; I've also run into problems against mass Stalkers. In this game, I didn't execute the build perfectly (I'm Random so I don't play TvP too often) and went double Refinery early due to Probe harassment delaying the first one, however, I think the general idea of the build is executed.
In this game, my opponent gets some decent Probe harassment done, and is able to scout my Factory/Bunker build before I kill his Probe. His response is to throw down a quick Robotics Facility while fast expanding off of 1 Gate. My drop is successful, and we remain even in food count despite his fast expo. But, his observer scouts my dual Starports with Tech Labs, and he pumps Observers from his Robotics Facility, and sits 4 Stalkers in both his Mineral lines. I get up an expo myself and make some Ravens while mixing in some Marauders, but my Marine/Hellion/Banshee/Raven army gets raped by mass Stalkers with three Sentries and one Immortal.
I forgot about the Medivac that I used to drop, my macro slipped a bit after the Banshee fail, and I'm only an ~85apm player, but I'm not sure if I prefer this over a standard 1/1/1 opening.
As I understand it you're really not supposed to harass with the Banshees in this build. Once you have 4 of them you move out with the Marines you've been producing all game from 1 Rax, and attack his front door while expoing and laying down more Rax.
This is a great build, I've beat quite a few 1000+ toss with it and it's other known variants.
On about 80% of the games though, I proxy my factory and lift it into their main to build helions. This allows you to get there faster, spares your dropship for a viking instead(useful vs proxy void ray). From there, I go for the 4 banshee/marine push and expand at the same time while salvaging and moving bunker into natural.
You covered the bases very well. I haven't seen an effective toss counter to this strategy, although it is weaker vs toss FE and well placed stalkers. The nature of this build prevents you from early pressure, allowing good protosses to expand and match your tech advantage with superior army numbers.
Well, I'm only a mid-plat player (went from ~250 points to ~600 since yesterday), but I've had a lot of success with this build. I lost the first time, versus mass stalkers, but that was because I didn't have enough marines, and no wall because of Kulas. Drop went well, killing 8 probes, but bad scv production (we both had 22 workers after the drop) plus not massing enough marines nor having scv ready to repair the bunker cost me the game when he attacked after killing the hellions.
I then actually watched OP's replays to get it fine, and went back to playing. Fought 4 protoss, won all. I throw down 2 more raxes and a techlab on the existing one after the second port started, using my 2-3 first banshees to harass and buy time for stim/combat shields and some marauders (2 labs on new raxes), w/ cloak if drop didn't show robo. Then I proceed to push out w/ about 6 banshees and MM ball, throwing down CC at nat and constantly producing rines/banshees. If I have spare gas, I get a fusion core, otherwise I tend to skip a banshee once I have ~7 to do it. The first push generally kill my opponent, or I get some reinforcements and finish him.
I fought some heavy stalkers armies, but the need to tech limits them and mass rines did the job well, also banshees are really good against colossi or to force him to bring his army away from his ramp if you them send in the back (I know on upper levels then actually won't move the entire army, but in plat it does the trick). Also, none of my opponents expanded, which allowed me to win an elimination race when one of them ran for my main while I was busy killing his backdoor rocks on Kulas Ravin. Added DPS while 2 BCs at home kept him busy a little and OC was flying toward my army.
I think the true power of this build is that it's so solid and versatile, even with a low execution like mine it works wonders, especially against protosses with few or bad micro who can't apply enough pressure in the early game. Then, it's so strong ! I'd really love to find a way to incorporate a raven somewhere in the middle though, since PDD is so awesome. <3 Perhaps going for the faster 2nd gas too.
I tried this against upper Plat/low Diam players and it worked pretty well.
- If you see lots Stalkers, skip second banshee and get a Raven for PDD - dont be afraid of throwing down a second bunker to hold off a push - transition to marauders instead of BCs works great, as the toss' typical reaction to banshees is stalkers.
On August 28 2010 16:58 alphafuzard wrote: A couple of things I think could improve your build 1. When dropping hellions, hit 'd' then click on your medivac to execute a moving drop which will give your drop more tempo 2. Add your extra rax earlier to streamline the build edit: just after your first production cycle on the ports imo 3. If you put a tech lab on your first rax after bunker, you can get stim and hit a much earlier timing attack window than your pre-storm attack. This means a 25 second delay in building marines which is 1 marine, but the dps from stim makes up for this loss imo 4. Consider making a raven first to both deny scouting from an observer and to build up energy for pdd in your initial attack
So I decided to play a few games with your build + my adjustments and I think its very nice Attached replay against 1300+ diamond protoss + Show Spoiler +
Hellion drop, though slightly mismicroed, gives me a slight lead which is hugely magnified in the first major attack Note the continued use of the medivac which I think can also improve this build
Tried this a couple of times: won one, lost one. The one that I lost was probably more to my bad micro, let the colosus focus down my bunker :S. But the game that I won it took a while to actually wear the toss down, I had 2 waves repelled: first 3 banshees and all the rines (9?) vs 4 zealots, 2 immortals and 6 stalkers and the marines died and banshees ran. The second time I had marauders and a medievac and they still got killed. Only on the 3rd time, when I brought almost as many banshees as he had stalkers he finally died. Is this just bad micro from me? Instead of focus firing everyone at the stalkers I let too much damage spread out?
I've tried this build every game I've played whether its been 1v1 or 2v2 random. Low Diamond games mostly with some upper plat thrown in. It is so fucking solid and I haven't lost a game since.
Microing hellions during the initial drop is key. There are always openings even if the opponent is prepared and don't just let them die if you don't have to.
Ex. Played against a zerg who put a spine crawler already prepared on one side of his mineral line. All I had to do was attack from the other side and got at least 7+ drones. I always saved at least one hellion during a drop attack and went back to repair. 1-2 minutes later I would go attack with my ready to cloak banshees and it really pissed off a lot of players.
Weakness of this build is to a really early expand but you should do enough damage economically during your harass to easily catch up with your own expand and fully transitioned army.
I like a combination of marines, some maruaders and a few hellions with banshee support to rape pretty much anything.
Some tips after playing this a couple of times: Micro your hellions during drop(don't let them die needlessly), stuttershot with your banshees when chasing an army, always always keep macroing if you can during harass even if its just scv building.
I've beat this build with a fast expand. Since the terran is relying on his wall or bunkers in the early game and thus doesn't have an army that can challenge mine, I can produce more than he can when he pushes out by taking my nat early. Also, the hellion drop did half as much damage to my economy as it would have if I were on one base. It hit right about the same time charge started researching and a minute or so after my observer saw what was going on.
On August 28 2010 16:58 alphafuzard wrote: So I decided to play a few games with your build + my adjustments and I think its very nice Attached replay against 1300+ diamond protoss + Show Spoiler +
Hellion drop, though slightly mismicroed, gives me a slight lead which is hugely magnified in the first major attack Note the continued use of the medivac which I think can also improve this build
...that guy was seriously 1300pt diamond? O.O but anyway this build seems solid...can definitely cause havoc to a toss players mineral line (you even got 10 probe kills with the mismicro). however i do think a good counter to this is fast expanding as protoss if u can scout it because there is no early aggression and only a handful of marines + banshee after the hellion drop.
On August 30 2010 09:51 Sub40APM wrote: But the game that I won it took a while to actually wear the toss down, I had 2 waves repelled: first 3 banshees and all the rines (9?) vs 4 zealots, 2 immortals and 6 stalkers and the marines died and banshees ran. The second time I had marauders and a medievac and they still got killed. Only on the 3rd time, when I brought almost as many banshees as he had stalkers he finally died. Is this just bad micro from me? Instead of focus firing everyone at the stalkers I let too much damage spread out?
I think 9 marines is quite low by the time you have 3 banshees. At least 12 seems good, but it also depends on when you had raxes. I feel like I add them too late, keeping more gas but getting stim and combat shields less fast.
On August 30 2010 10:08 Shron wrote: I've beat this build with a fast expand. Since the terran is relying on his wall or bunkers in the early game and thus doesn't have an army that can challenge mine, I can produce more than he can when he pushes out by taking my nat early. Also, the hellion drop did half as much damage to my economy as it would have if I were on one base. It hit right about the same time charge started researching and a minute or so after my observer saw what was going on.
If I see an FE while using this build, I immediately drop a tech lab on my rax and build a reactor rax instead of the second starport. I turn the Hellion drop into a 3 marauder/2 marine drop in one of the mineral lines. So the 1/1/2 opener becomes a 2/1/1 opener instead. Can't double pump Banshees but with marauders in the army they more then make up for it.
That's why I like this 1/1/2 build so much. It's very versatile. Easy to transition to something else like a normal 1/1/1 or a 2/1/1 opener.
I don't think the phoenix harass should be a problem since you massed marines. Also, stargate means delayed tech to colossus or templar, so you have more time to switch to ghost, marauders, etc.
The problem is that his phenoix is out the same time as my medievac.. and LONG before marines are massed... this prevents the dropship from harassing.. and he lifts my vultures,.. after that i fail microed and went bainshees instead of 2 vikings... and got a few rauders..
he followed up with massive chargelots and pheonix storm :D
I have started using this build and it is alot of fun to play with. the MM+Banshee push can do a alot of damage. I got some high plat/low diamond level replays of TvP and TvZ with this build if anyone wants to see a few more.
If I go for a 4 gate push I time it to hit the Terrans door before cloak can be researched. As soon as I see a starport techlab I can build a robo and have a obs out. I might lose some probes but a 4gate army can take down your wall and bunkers if alls you have is a ball of marines and 2-3 bunkers.
Not saying it's a weak build, but it seems like a well timed early semi-allin can take you out while you're weak.
1k Diamond terran, I've done this build for 10 straight TvPs in a row, and I have yet to lose. I haven't faced FE yet, but everything else it has worked wonders against. No one has actually survived my 4 banshee timing push. The hellion drop has allways done quite a bit of damage though, minimum 8 probes in any game.
On September 01 2010 04:01 DamageInq wrote: If I go for a 4 gate push I time it to hit the Terrans door before cloak can be researched. As soon as I see a starport techlab I can build a robo and have a obs out. I might lose some probes but a 4gate army can take down your wall and bunkers if alls you have is a ball of marines and 2-3 bunkers.
Not saying it's a weak build, but it seems like a well timed early semi-allin can take you out while you're weak.
You can't break a bunker aside a walled-off ramp with 10 scvs repairing it. The only things that can attack it are stalkers and sentries because zealots can't get to it. Two bunkers and you have absolutely 0 chance. Many people have tried. 4gate is actually a build this beats the easiest.
I've been using this build in all my TvP for a few days now, but one problem I always have is a FE. Probes are spread out over 2 bases so the hellion drop is not as effective, and this build does not have a fast expand so I usually just get overwhelmed. My question is what do you do if the toss scouts your bunker, then goes for a FE. Editing this in to the OP under "adapting to protoss strategies would be great.
On September 01 2010 04:35 Trion wrote: I've been using this build in all my TvP for a few days now, but one problem I always have is a FE. Probes are spread out over 2 bases so the hellion drop is not as effective, and this build does not have a fast expand so I usually just get overwhelmed. My question is what do you do if the toss scouts your bunker, then goes for a FE. Editing this in to the OP under "adapting to protoss strategies would be great.
Thanks!
I play P and use a FE vs T every time. This hellion drop to banshees build is probably at a slight disadvantage against a FE P because a 2-base P will be able to macro up an army large enough to stop the big marine-banshee push, and from there, the P will have an econ advantage. The key, however, is the hellion drop. It's really hard to shut down 3 hellions when you're spread thin over 2 bases. This build especially gives me problems on Scrap Station where the air distance is incredibly short and your nat is miles away from your main. With hellions and banshees on the field, you can easy lose 20 probes in an instant, and you just never feel safe enough to leave your base.
Given equal play, I think the 2-base P is at an advantage, but there's still a big opportunity for the T to out-micro the P and kill enough probes to pull ahead.
I haven't had any trouble with them yet, so I didn't think to put it in the guide, although it's definitely possible the people I played executed them poorly. Usually I drop wherever their army is not, rack up a bunch of probe kills, have a equal or superior army with higher tech and more production, and win on my first push.
If I run into someone executing the strat really well, I'll post replays and brainstorm a bit more, because I haven't encountered often enough to work through the strategy of it.
Definitely upload some replays of you winning/losing if you want.
On September 01 2010 05:00 iEchoic wrote: About PvT FE builds:
I haven't had any trouble with them yet, so I didn't think to put it in the guide, although it's definitely possible the people I played executed them poorly. Usually I drop wherever their army is not, rack up a bunch of probe kills, have a equal or superior army with higher tech and more production, and win on my first push.
If I run into someone executing the strat really well, I'll post replays and brainstorm a bit more, because I haven't encountered often enough to work through the strategy of it.
This sounds about right. I've played out FE vs this 1-1-2 quite a bit at ~1k diamond. There are a lot more subtleties that go into deciding the winner and loser, but as a rule of thumb:
-if the hellion drop kills 5 probes or less, P is ahead -if the hellion drops kills 8-10 probes, the game is even -if the hellion drop kills more than 10 probes, T is ahead
With good map awareness and positioning, it is possible for P to shut down the hellion harass with minimal probe losses, but it's really really hard to do. With superior control, this build can easily beat a FE play.
On August 28 2010 16:58 alphafuzard wrote: A couple of things I think could improve your build 1. When dropping hellions, hit 'd' then click on your medivac to execute a moving drop which will give your drop more tempo 2. Add your extra rax earlier to streamline the build edit: just after your first production cycle on the ports imo 3. If you put a tech lab on your first rax after bunker, you can get stim and hit a much earlier timing attack window than your pre-storm attack. This means a 25 second delay in building marines which is 1 marine, but the dps from stim makes up for this loss imo 4. Consider making a raven first to both deny scouting from an observer and to build up energy for pdd in your initial attack
So I decided to play a few games with your build + my adjustments and I think its very nice Attached replay against 1300+ diamond protoss + Show Spoiler +
Hellion drop, though slightly mismicroed, gives me a slight lead which is hugely magnified in the first major attack Note the continued use of the medivac which I think can also improve this build
I just got around to watching this, I like some of the changes. I'm definitely a fan of using your medivac to continue dropping instead of just leaving it with your army, and I like the earlier second and third rax. I'm not completely sold on stim yet (as I usually spend all my gas on banshees and cutting 100 gas is cutting a banshee and stim takes a long time), but there's some value here, thanks.
Banshees are kinda ridiculous vs toss lol. still, all the replays i have seen of this build were against some below average players who didn't really do enough to deal with the banshees or hellions. In the minigun replay his stalkers count was puny and he did a poor job of defending the hellions. I think a FE could beat this if you were smart and got more gas and stalkers.
On September 01 2010 06:28 Yaotzin wrote: See White-Ra vs MorroW for stopping the marine/banshee play. MorroW even gives up on it when Ra stomps it while expanding.
Link pls.
Im not a fan of OPs build. I do the 1 1 2 myself with "great" succes at about 1100 rating. I basicly just do a timing push with about 4 banchee and a bunch of marines and expand before 10min .... The fundemental problem with this build is that you will only be able to secure your expantion around the 12 min mark which means that you are pretty much all in on your helion drop. If it doesnt do dmg, you lose. This isnt doesnt mean the build is bad, I just feel it delays the banchee production too much.
On September 01 2010 06:28 Yaotzin wrote: See White-Ra vs MorroW for stopping the marine/banshee play. MorroW even gives up on it when Ra stomps it while expanding.
On September 01 2010 06:28 Yaotzin wrote: See White-Ra vs MorroW for stopping the marine/banshee play. MorroW even gives up on it when Ra stomps it while expanding.
Link pls.
Im not a fan of OPs build. I do the 1 1 2 myself with "great" succes at about 1100 rating. I basicly just do a timing push with about 4 banchee and a bunch of marines and expand before 10min .... The fundemental problem with this build is that you will only be able to secure your expantion around the 12 min mark which means that you are pretty much all in on your helion drop. If it doesnt do dmg, you lose. This isnt doesnt mean the build is bad, I just feel it delays the banchee production too much.
It's on his site (white-ra.com), though that seems to be down atm. MorroW does the 2port banshee thing the first 4 games (then gives up on it). Generally he seems to favor 3gaterobo -> blink with like 95% stalker, though he doesn't even seem to need blink. Just nice concave and attack move really. Stomps MorroWs push on sands while his expo nexus is warping in, so MorroW tosses the strat :D
On September 01 2010 06:28 Yaotzin wrote: See White-Ra vs MorroW for stopping the marine/banshee play. MorroW even gives up on it when Ra stomps it while expanding.
Link pls.
Im not a fan of OPs build. I do the 1 1 2 myself with "great" succes at about 1100 rating. I basicly just do a timing push with about 4 banchee and a bunch of marines and expand before 10min .... The fundemental problem with this build is that you will only be able to secure your expantion around the 12 min mark which means that you are pretty much all in on your helion drop. If it doesnt do dmg, you lose. This isnt doesnt mean the build is bad, I just feel it delays the banchee production too much.
It's on his site (white-ra.com), though that seems to be down atm. MorroW does the 2port banshee thing the first 4 games (then gives up on it). Generally he seems to favor 3gaterobo -> blink with like 95% stalker, though he doesn't even seem to need blink. Just nice concave and attack move really. Stomps MorroWs push on sands while his expo nexus is warping in, so MorroW tosses the strat :D
On September 01 2010 06:36 Armsved wrote: This isnt doesnt mean the build is bad, I just feel it delays the banchee production too much.
It doesn't delay banshee production literally at all. You go straight rax-fact-starport and then double-produce banshees. Watch the replays.
The hellion harass always does some damage. It is literally impossible to stop it without losing some probes unless the hellions are microed inredibly badly.
Well, you "lose" the medivac production time on the first banshee timing, but the drop supposedly more than compensate for that if you force your opponent to stay in his base. I wonder if it could be tweaked to get more marines/hellions, move some of them near opponent base before the drop, with a scout ahead of his choke, and if he push after killing the drop, dropping again when he's halfway to entice him to move back or to kill his economy.
That would mean cutting on banshees for faster barracks, or slower rax if additional hellions, so I guess it would be too risky if the opponent commits on his push.
I think what's also important is that if he had an obs he'll make stalkers for your banshees, so you'll have to tech switch to marauders and THEN it's pretty much GG.
On August 28 2010 16:58 alphafuzard wrote: A couple of things I think could improve your build 1. When dropping hellions, hit 'd' then click on your medivac to execute a moving drop which will give your drop more tempo 2. Add your extra rax earlier to streamline the build edit: just after your first production cycle on the ports imo 3. If you put a tech lab on your first rax after bunker, you can get stim and hit a much earlier timing attack window than your pre-storm attack. This means a 25 second delay in building marines which is 1 marine, but the dps from stim makes up for this loss imo 4. Consider making a raven first to both deny scouting from an observer and to build up energy for pdd in your initial attack
So I decided to play a few games with your build + my adjustments and I think its very nice Attached replay against 1300+ diamond protoss + Show Spoiler +
Hellion drop, though slightly mismicroed, gives me a slight lead which is hugely magnified in the first major attack Note the continued use of the medivac which I think can also improve this build
I'm not completely sold on stim yet (as I usually spend all my gas on banshees and cutting 100 gas is cutting a banshee and stim takes a long time), but there's some value here, thanks.
Stim is something I definitely want to find the correct window for in this build - if it's possible. The marine army is nice to have, but after the Helion drop, it would be a huge asset to push with Banshees + Stim Marine. Not sure if the timing is possible though
On September 01 2010 06:36 Armsved wrote: This isnt doesnt mean the build is bad, I just feel it delays the banchee production too much.
It doesn't delay banshee production literally at all. You go straight rax-fact-starport and then double-produce banshees. Watch the replays.
The hellion harass always does some damage. It is literally impossible to stop it without losing some probes unless the hellions are microed inredibly badly.
It is possible to stop it without taking any damage if P scouts the medivac with his obs and position his stalkers at the edge of your base
On September 01 2010 06:28 Yaotzin wrote: See White-Ra vs MorroW for stopping the marine/banshee play. MorroW even gives up on it when Ra stomps it while expanding.
Link pls.
Im not a fan of OPs build. I do the 1 1 2 myself with "great" succes at about 1100 rating. I basicly just do a timing push with about 4 banchee and a bunch of marines and expand before 10min .... The fundemental problem with this build is that you will only be able to secure your expantion around the 12 min mark which means that you are pretty much all in on your helion drop. If it doesnt do dmg, you lose. This isnt doesnt mean the build is bad, I just feel it delays the banchee production too much.
It's on his site (white-ra.com), though that seems to be down atm. MorroW does the 2port banshee thing the first 4 games (then gives up on it). Generally he seems to favor 3gaterobo -> blink with like 95% stalker, though he doesn't even seem to need blink. Just nice concave and attack move really. Stomps MorroWs push on sands while his expo nexus is warping in, so MorroW tosses the strat :D
The build that MorroW did is not the exact same build. That's the catch 1/1/2 is versatile just like 1/1/1/ meaning you can turn it into anything you want.
The 1/1/2 that first gained popularity when TLO used it is not quite the same as this build. If you don't harass then yes if you're prepared it can be defeated. MorroW had great success with it early on and then Ra started to counter it. Anybody who sees the same build over and over again will formulate a counter. Especially at the Pro level.
On August 27 2010 15:43 Dadant wrote: A few replays of Morrow testing this build out v DuckloadRa on http://sc2rep.net/ id tag 1655-1659, some high skill level used here ofc.
I put the links up in this thread, however it's not the same build with no drop on the probes justed the marines, I think stimed, and banshee's also with them talking about the tlo build and Morrow wanting to test it so DuckloadRa was able to be ready for it.
I watched some of the replays and I'm liking the build a lot. I am wondering though, do you definitely have to wall off every time? I like to build close to my cc for a variety of reasons, stopping probe harass and 2 gate stalker openings among them, but I find myself having some trouble against 4-gate stalkers (like 1 zealot, 2 sentries and a bunch of stalkers). These all stalker comps are tough for me, even when i go 3 rax marauders. I don't feel like walling off is a huge advantage over just bunkers at the ramp against mass stalkers, but am I missing something?
Also, blistering sands is a nightmare for holding off the 4 gate with that backdoor, how do you handle that?
Love the build, iEchoic, and especially the transition to battlecruisers :D. keep up the great work!
I'm having trouble versus Blink Stalkers + observers
Will post a replay later but does anyone have some basic advice? I guess I need to cancel the cloak when I see the robotics and do I keep going marine+banshees even vs blink stalkers? or should I switch to something else?
I will keep messing with it, but the only time I lose with this strategy is versus mass blink stalkers with observers and/or immortals
[B]On August 23 2010 08:41 iEchoic wrote: The build is very lean, holding off on the second refinery until after the first starport begins construction, creating mineral-only units, and forgoing any addons until two starports are produced.
Also, I wanted to add that this is (to me) what makes this strategy so good. Delaying the second gas when you plan on going for double starport is counter-intuitive, but it's the secret behind the innovation! Staying on one refinery for a little longer makes the build feel so smooth, you have exactly the minerals and gas you need right when you need them.
That video about the blink stalkers is a good one, and seems like it might give iEchoic's build a little trouble, but the hellion harass is an important detail that secures an economic advantage, and it doesn't seem too hard to add a raven or two for pdd and switch into marauder production, both of which are very natural transitions and showcase the versatility of the build. Then again, battlecruisers are always awesome too Don't get me wrong, if I am playing protoss and I see marine and banshees, I'll probably go blink stalkers, but I don't think I would call it a hard counter. It is a good reaction, and so is phoenix/zealot imo.
700pt diamond, was mainly playing 3rax allins vs toss
1/1/2 is incredible so far, probably 10ish games without loss so far. if the hellion drop isnt scouted or stopped, it will literally win you the game. ive had games with 20+ kills where they microd their probes in a big line running away from their stalkers/lots.. lol. even got me considering the possibility of the drop vs terran and then trying to 3/1/1 to overwhelm before tank/viking
even in games where i get 10, or less, i still feel like im ahead. im switching it up between harrassing with banshees from both sides on probes while i expand to bc/marauder/medi and straight up marine/shee push.
I've been trying this in the low Gold level, and have had mixed results.
First, the flaw against early timing pushes is obvious. I'm relying much more on my scouting than I feel comfortable, trying to spot multiple gateways that are usually hidden or proxied somewhere my scout didn't notice. Generally, I like builds that are not so succeptible to surprise, but I know that some players are better at scouting than I, so take from this what you will.
Second, the Hellion drop is not all I hoped that it would be. Sometimes of course, he spots my medievac. Other times though, he's got 4 or so stalkers in his mineral line already because he just has that much wiggle room to guard for an airborne attack instead of a frontal one. And even when the Hellion drops get by unexpectedly, it seems that they do the most damage against players who pull probes off the line. Many players at this level don't do this. And with a normal mining distribution, the hellions hit only a couple probes at a time, kill 3 or so and get taken out. Now I realize that 3 probes to 3 Hellions is a good exchange for the attacking player in the upper diamond level. But where I'm at, it's just not that tangible, especially when my mid-game composition is so up in the air (pun intended). And this brings me to point 3...
Third, Stalkers are still very good against my mid-game composition, and I'm not really in a good enough position a lot of the time to counter them. A colossus or two defended by enough stalkers can pretty much go wherever they want on the map v. my comp, up to and including expanding much earlier than I. I understand that the way out of this is the timing window, but I see even in the posted replays that the Banshee/Marine push happens a bit after the Colossus comes out, to say nothing of keeping the opponent off of a dozen or more stalkers.
What I've been doing sometimes when I scout an early cyber core is this. I make a second rax, get a tech lab on the first one, put out about 3 Marauders and get stim. Then instead of using the factory for Hellions, I mock up a reactor and switch it to the first starport for 2 Medievacs. With these 2 dropships, I just do - you guessed it - a fully stocked bio drop.
The bio drop itself is quite often more cost efficient than even the Hellion drop. I'll catch at least 3 or so probes as they're coming off the line, sometimes more. But also, the opponent has to respond much more carefully to the bio-drop. The casual 1-attack-move response that deals so handily with the Hellions results in a narrow file of zealots/stalkers going through the natural choke point formed by his Nexus and mineral line. The Marauder enhanced bio works much better against stalkers, and the choke forms a problem for his zealots. The bio usually take out half a dozen toss units before they start to suffer losses, and because the medievacs heal them, it can even result in a gg. Worst case is that you lose 6 marines to his 6 or so combat units and 3 probes, then pick the rest up hot and head for home. The remaining stalkers cannot down the ships when you micro them off into space. And 6 marines lost is the same mineral cost as the 3 hellions.
Of course, iEchoic's smooth timings are going to be upset by this, and obviously, it's not possible to get a good bio drop as early as the hellion drop. But as far as timings are concerned, I'm not perfect in executing my BO's anyway, and so I leave it up to other players to find out when to get gas, etc. All I konw is that the bio drop requires me to get my second gas a bit earlier than in the original build. But as far as resource differences there is not all that much discrepancy:
Add: 1 Barracks (150/0) 1 Tech Lab on Rax (50/25) 1 Reactor on Fac (50/50) 1 Extra Medievac (100/100) 1 Stim Research (100/100) 3 Marauders (300/75) The difference between 10 marines and whatever fewer than that you had in the original build (?/0)
Subtract: 3 Hellions (300/0) 6 Marines (300/0) - you made 3 Marauder instead
The difference is 150/275. Having spent SCV trips on gas instead of minerals, I'd estimate it takes about 30s of mining at an income of 600/200 to get the extra. So theoretically, someone could trim the timings so that the bio drop happens no later than 30 after the Hellion drop would've gotten there. In my own practice, the difference is closer to 1 min and I'm not sure why.
Even so, a 1 min buffer is a worthy price to pay against a toss who has massed stalkers. Another side benefit to this is that you can pump out 2 quick Vikings (or more) with your reactor port, particularly good against the natural protoss counter to bio - the Colossus.
I know that this sort of play (2/1/1) is really just a MMM timing push, but I thought to post it here for two reasons. First, they both involve 1 base play and a drop versus Protoss. Protoss seem particularly vulnerable to drops, and to the 1/1/1 opening in general.
The second reason is that right about the time we would need to get the earlier gas and second barracks for this build is when we find out through scouting whether our opponent is 4-gating, massing stalkers or getting an early robo bay - three protoss configs that 1/1/2 Hellion can be countered by. Against these builds, I recommend grabbing a second barracks and earlier gas. Otherwise, the results of the commonplace 1/1/2 hellion/banshee against void-rays, no robo bay and others speak for themselves. Splitting production facilities also gives this bio-focused build the same sort of flexibility. So, both are really 2 variants of what the player set out to be a 1/1/1 build.
So, I'm curious on whether anyone attempting this build has opted to go early bio, and if so, to what result. I need help especially with the timings and the BO. My 2 ships pop pretty early as it is now, and I wait a while for the bio needed to fill them completely.
First i want to say this build is pretty awesome! My first try at using this strategy. (my build and timing is way off i just used the general idea =P )
mid diamond level TvP game, with my 1st time trying out this build.
On maps with close air rush distance, this build is SO strong. But on maps with close rush distance, i think it may be better to do an early poke instead of hellion drop. ie, use this build here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=149215
I played pretty badly this game, a lot of sloppy play left and right but the strength of the build carried me THROUGH. it wasnt even fair.... i wish i had a PDD at the battle, it wouldve been SLAUGHTER.
On September 01 2010 06:28 Yaotzin wrote: See White-Ra vs MorroW for stopping the marine/banshee play. MorroW even gives up on it when Ra stomps it while expanding.
I tried a similar build to this. Instead of going for 2 ports, I get a reactor on my barracks as my factor is building, switch add ons, pump 4 hellions and marines. Start my first port and once finished, make a dropship. As the dropship is making, make a tech lab on barracks and pump out one marauder.
After the first hellion harass, I siwtch Barracks to reactor, starport to tech lab, and begin next expansion. During that time, I get a tech lab on factory and put down 2 more barracks (one with tech lab, one with reactor).
End the game with a stim MM, tank, and raven push.
Wow, definately going to give this a try thanks for the post.
Has anyone tried making a single raven with your banshees for PDD mineral line harass? That was the idea that was in my head the whole time watching these replays. Looks very versatile, looking forward to trying it out.
i need to say i take my hat off to iEchoics i've had trouble with protoss for long time but not anymore. I haven't mastered this build (not even close, i keep forgetting things like when the second refinery and stuff) and yet i win and not having a hard time.(have played against mid-low diamond and plats) this build mastered it sure is high diamond level. thanks iEchoic
Nothing to say except that I'm going to assume this is the same iEchoic that dominated Halo Wars and it's nice to see a fellow former HWer playing this game at a high level. I was TPack on those forums, but it was so long ago you prolly don't remember me.
hey there i would like some1 to help me with some decision making:
ive been trying to familiarise myself with this, so Ive used it against AI only. Up to hard its really easy, bot just harrases a bit then its fun time. In very hard however, bot rushed a robo facility without obs just immortals. I had a bunker set already and 4 marines(maybe could have poped 1-2 more but they wouldnt have helped that much), but by the time my medivac was just outside his base(and when I switched second starport onto factory's starport), he rushed me with 2 immortals 4 zealots, 1 sentry and a stalker. I didnt micro well cause lets face it, I panicked a bit , and it was gg for me. In hard AI the very same part was easily defended(1 immortal and a couple zealots less). I could probably time it a bit better(even though it was executed OK and I wasnt supply blocked for more than a couple of seconds, constantly training scv as well).
At the current time mark I dont think any opponents at my level would even consider harrassing like that ignoring the observer(had it produced an observer I would have dropped hellions and have produced 2 bansh myself), but, say some1 is idd rushing that soon, how should we counter it with some excess minerals that we have? Building a second barrackes, tech to maurad insteed of just marines, or just make a second bunker at the time you check robo, just in care to be sure?
i've used this build for many games now, and also watched the replays, and thought that if u do a reactor on the factory right after its built u can get 4 hellions only about 20 secs later than 3 hellions w/out reac, making it even stronger drop. is this viable? are those 20secs vital? maybe that 50gas expended its too necesary or will delay the banshees? (watching ur replays i've seen that u reac 1 barrack and leave ur factory idle, so with this u just do a swap)
I don't think the reactor is a great idea, you won't use the factory anymore after the drop (at least I don't) and the build is so lean and smooth that the 50/50 will actually disrupt your follow-up. Also, don't underestimate those 20 seconds. Very often the drop literally hits while his first push from a 4 gate or 2 gate robo is moving out. Forcing that army to turn around and defend probes buys you time to get some banshees out to defend the front.
A little consumer feedback, I've used this build in every tvp for the past several days and I haven't lost a SINGLE one! Love it, now if iEchoic could just release his super secret tvz strategies I'd be set. On that subject btw, gratz on beating Phoenix in the GGI man, game 2 was awesome. I'm rooting for you.
yeah thats what i though, i havent really tried on the reactor, but had to ask. and i've been using it too, only lost once(against high diamon toss and due to a crappy execution by me). still took it to late game and lost not by far.
I believe I played a very good Toss player that stomped on this. My opponent was 90-30...I'm around the 1k diamond range...
He went 1 gate->robo, while leaving 3 stalkers in his mineral line with a pylon on the other side. He spread out the remainder of his stalkers at other key places around his base. From the 1 gate robo at some point he transitioned to an FE, and multiple gateways, but I felt like I was just unable to do ANYTHING against him.
I still went ahead with the drop anyway, I tried to fake an additional 2 hellions running up his ramp and this had SOME effect. But he cleverly (?) kept his probes mining and I only picked off 2. Maybe I shouldnt have sunk any more materials into this failed attempt as well.
Either way, I guess my question comes down to, if your drop does negative damage (at that point in the replay I had lost 400 minerals, him 100)... what do you do? Additionally he had an OBS in my base relatively quickly, but in the BO there is no mention of raven / ebay that early so I just let it chill there.
In my experience as protoss this build is extremely strong if protoss is very passive and do not see it coming. Marine banshees coupled with the drop can completly rape him. The times i was able to counter it was having a fast observer and being very agressive with stalkers at his ramp. Since I usually make phoenix or blink or charge as soon as i see mass marines (since its most probably a tech starport build raven or banshees) it helps countering the push and you can put an expand early. The most dangerous thing remains the drop and as a player suggested unless your probes are close to your stalkers dont run them around its useless, or spread them in small groups, warp in or bring back stalkers.
If being agressive doesn't work i really think the push can be held of with Z + S with charge, you can FE against that kind of build and the profit should come soon enough for you to have enough gate units to hold the push. I recommand to add a robo and a TC for either charge or blink.
It requires you to train your build in any case, this is a strong push.
so I beat the very hard AI, and went on a winning streak on ladder vs 3 protoss... I guess its a combination of this build and overall increase in experience/skill that I now built up and gold players seemed a bit too easy, even with me doing many mistakes especially macro-wise... thanx for this build it gave me the confidence I needed to augment my possibilities.
On September 08 2010 07:50 guyGOTgirth wrote: I believe I played a very good Toss player that stomped on this. My opponent was 90-30...I'm around the 1k diamond range...
He went 1 gate->robo, while leaving 3 stalkers in his mineral line with a pylon on the other side. He spread out the remainder of his stalkers at other key places around his base. From the 1 gate robo at some point he transitioned to an FE, and multiple gateways, but I felt like I was just unable to do ANYTHING against him.
I still went ahead with the drop anyway, I tried to fake an additional 2 hellions running up his ramp and this had SOME effect. But he cleverly (?) kept his probes mining and I only picked off 2. Maybe I shouldnt have sunk any more materials into this failed attempt as well.
Either way, I guess my question comes down to, if your drop does negative damage (at that point in the replay I had lost 400 minerals, him 100)... what do you do? Additionally he had an OBS in my base relatively quickly, but in the BO there is no mention of raven / ebay that early so I just let it chill there.
That guy basically played the accurate counter, not much you could do about it. Note that this doesn't make the build bad - every single strategy has a counter, else it would be imbalanced and patched. What makes a strategy bad is usually if the strategy has no good continuation that can recover from being countered, or if the counter turns out to be part of the common or default line of play.
This is neither since 1) after the drop fails you're not too far behind - especially if you both expo since then the investment you made in the early drop becomes a relative drop in the bucket. And 2) putting stalkers in those positions is not normal and turns out to be a bad play against many other Terran openings.
I've been doing a similar build against protoss for some time now with lot of success, with the big difference that I always get a Raven first before pumping banshees, so you get energy for PDD when you're ready to push with banshees / marines / hellions, which makes the push almost unstoppable if you end up at this point. PDD stops phenixes and stalkers, the most obvious answers to banshees. The only thing going to hold this is a very early expand into MASS stalkers. I've been working on some variant to deal with this by including marauders in the mix (you can afford it off 1 base) but still didn't get to find a smooth way to incorporate those early enough so you have a decent amount of them when you push.
The other big problem is those 4gate pushes, I really don't see how to hold those, the push occurs when you're building the first banshee (assuming you rush it after scouting 4gate) so you usually don't have the time to get cloak and bunkers with marines aren't going to stop anything. In short any protoss being agressive relatively early before you can hurt his econ will have no problem to beat this imo
Hello every1. I had this game vs a diamond(im still platinum) so dont expect a great game. On the contrary I lost due to NUMEROUS mistakes. So I have a general idea as to what I should in case I should play this again, but still, I need info. What should I have done in order to make the most out of the build ? I want to see if the things I thought on improving are the correct ones or irrelevant. So if any1s got the time to watch, its not lengthy, id be greateful. ty
typically posters are asked to provide their own analysis before expecting others to invest time in watching their replay. Could you share with us your own insights ?
ohh fair enough I guess... Was just trying not to lead any1 to conclusions other than their own. Well, to any1 actually watching the replay:
I start with the usual hellion drop to mass marines/banshees. I ve scouted and seen a fast robo for observer. For some seconds the observer see my medivac and hellions so my opponent gets prepared. Still scouted and got 4 probes, but I guess I should have hidden them with hidden waypoints and I could have devastated him.
After that he immediately attacks. Due to observer he can see my bunker and kill it. My nonexistent micro didnt help much, so I do get to counter his attack but with many, many scvs dead and a couple of buildings down. I guess with a couple scvs to repair the bunker and proper micro I wouldnt get so much dmg out of his attack.
Last but not least, there are 2 attacks from his side. First attack, I fend it off with a couple marauders left. I am sure I microed really bad there.. Second and lethal attack, I have marines/marauders a couple of ravens and 6 banshees, he just got mass stalkers and 3-4 immortals. I just sent my units there and got slaughtered. I believe that if I had steampacked the maraud/marines in front of my banshees while getting PDD from ravens to counter some attacks, then focusing his immortals, I would have beat him. Not to mention I did have the cash to go ghosts, which was instant win too.
Now, I just wanted some1 to comment on this replay and tell me if my actual analysis for a similar future game is OK.
Alright, I am playing on Platinium level now and this build definitely helps me a lot in my placements~ so thx iEchoic.
However, How to deal with 4gate Blink stalkers with it? cloacked banshee and drop may not be enough to buy u time to avoid unupgraded marines being massacred
if he plays 4 gate build a bunker and repair it when he attacks. If he gets zealots and blinkers continue normally, if he gets mass stalkers get a rave so u get a couple of free hits thanx to PDD. 4 gate means early push so u probably will have an open mineral line to harass with ur hellions
Just wanted to stop in to say thanks for this strat - it really works for me!!
Before this strat:
And after:
I only played 2 Toss with it and it worked best with those. Worked pretty well against Zerg too; I just scanned frequently to make sure he didn't have counters in hand. He went mutas; my Hellion drop still got a bunch of drones and the Banshee + Marine push still worked since marines owned the mutas. I got 2 Vikings just in case but it wasn't really a big deal.
Obviously didn't work against Terran but the intro is actually great regardless, going 2 Starport makes early Banshee harass much more effective and transitions well into whatever they're going for. One guy went mass Marauders which the Banshees rocked.
On September 16 2010 03:17 grandpaj wrote: I only played 2 Toss with it and it worked best with those. Worked pretty well against Zerg too; I just scanned frequently to make sure he didn't have counters in hand. He went mutas; my Hellion drop still got a bunch of drones and the Banshee + Marine push still worked since marines owned the mutas. I got 2 Vikings just in case but it wasn't really a big deal.
Obviously didn't work against Terran but the intro is actually great regardless, going 2 Starport makes early Banshee harass much more effective and transitions well into whatever they're going for. One guy went mass Marauders which the Banshees rocked.
Thanks again
Awesome, glad you liked it.
I've been working on the build since I've posted it, have been refining the transitions against different compositions, and been compiling some replays, as well as future-proofing the strategy against the upcoming BC nerf. I'll be doing a pretty significant update that should work out any remaining kinks sometime in the near future, so stay tuned.
I've been using this build to great results until yesterday. Played a 1200 protoss that fast expanded, killed only 2 or 3 probes because he was very on the ball as well as researching blink quickly, and then when I went to do my 3 banshee push, he literally had as many stalkers as I did marines (this might be false, I haven't seen the replay yet).
I was wondering how to play if you see this happening. Should I instantly put down a CC? put down 2 more rax to try to survive? Tank up? I seriously don't know.
On September 16 2010 05:20 blagoonga123 wrote: I've been using this build to great results until yesterday. Played a 1200 protoss that fast expanded, killed only 2 or 3 probes because he was very on the ball as well as researching blink quickly, and then when I went to do my 3 banshee push, he literally had as many stalkers as I did marines (this might be false, I haven't seen the replay yet).
I was wondering how to play if you see this happening. Should I instantly put down a CC? put down 2 more rax to try to survive? Tank up? I seriously don't know.
Well, for one thing scan constantly, if you see he has waaaaaay too many Stalkers then you don't have to waste any of your army finding out. But if you watch the replay vid a couple posts up you'll see that he handled a pretty insane amount of Stalkers with his Banshees + Marines - granted he had a few more than you but still, with micro, it's powerful.
Did your enemy have observers? If not then Cloak would win it for you...
If he's got detection and just TOO many Stalkers, drop a couple Tech Labs on your Rax and pump out Marauders - they own Stalkers and in combo with your existing Marines and Banshees shouldn't be tooo much of a problem.
Yeah he had an obs out. I was actually in the process of transitioning into 3rax + tech lab marauder play but then he just rolled in with a force i was thoroughly unprepared for. I guess my issue that game was scouting. But when I was falling asleep I was thinking of ways I could have saved myself and drawing a blank. I guess instead of engaging outright with banshees i coulda tried to keep him in his base for a while to get my marauders out.
On September 16 2010 05:37 blagoonga123 wrote: Yeah he had an obs out. I was actually in the process of transitioning into 3rax + tech lab marauder play but then he just rolled in with a force i was thoroughly unprepared for. I guess my issue that game was scouting. But when I was falling asleep I was thinking of ways I could have saved myself and drawing a blank. I guess instead of engaging outright with banshees i coulda tried to keep him in his base for a while to get my marauders out.
Yeah, sounds like that was a tough game in any case.
One idea that might have helped is to use the Banshees and/or a medivac drop to harass his minerals while his Stalkers are hitting your wall, and try to bait him into pulling back. You can wear on him like this while you get your army together, hopefully.
One thing I've noticed is that you have to be on top of your game with this build; if you go slow and make a lot of mistakes you'll lose the early-game advantage that this build relies on. If you go even 1 or 2 minutes too slow he will have teched or massed too much to sufficiently hurt with this harass.
If you post the replay I'll take a look at it when I get home, blagoonga, FEing, rushing blink, massing stalkers, and getting an obs is usually really hard and leaves them vulnerable somewhere as they're spending a ton on structures/tech already. It's up to scouting to discover that vulnerability, and you can usually catch it and watch for it in the replay.
I'd say the #1 reason is you didn't get an orbital command until ~21 supply (and you stopped producing SCVs at the start for a long period of time, which really hurts). You should be putting the OC up right when your rax finishes (I'm assuming you just forgot). Also, you started the second refinery before the Factory, when you're not supposed to start it until after the Starport.
I've forgotten to get my orbital command before and it hurts your econ big time. No OC + not building SCVs = you fell way behind in macro. He had 33 harvesters at one point when you had 18 :o. Make sure you're always building workers.
Looks like you just need to clean up the build a bit. It's really precisely-timed so little things like building the refinery at the wrong time will throw a wrench in it pretty good. The replays are a good reference if you forget how it goes. This build is supposed to give you an economic advantage through harass, so make sure to capitalize on it. Hope that helps, if you clean that up and lose more report back.
I'd say the #1 reason is you didn't get an orbital command until ~21 supply (and you stopped producing SCVs at the start for a long period of time, which really hurts). You should be putting the OC up right when your rax finishes (I'm assuming you just forgot). Also, you started the second refinery before the Factory, when you're not supposed to start it until after the Starport.
I've forgotten to get my orbital command before and it hurts your econ big time. No OC + not building SCVs = you fell way behind in macro. He had 33 harvesters at one point when you had 18 :o. Make sure you're always building workers.
Looks like you just need to clean up the build a bit. It's really precisely-timed so little things like building the refinery at the wrong time will throw a wrench in it pretty good. The replays are a good reference if you forget how it goes. This build is supposed to give you an economic advantage through harass, so make sure to capitalize on it. Hope that helps, if you clean that up and lose more report back.
I see. I actually remember making a lot of little mistakes in this match, I guess they added up in a BIG way. D:
It's funny, I'm like 1230 diamond and after games like this I still feel so noobish lol
I modified the build a bit to get a faster second gas as well as a tech lab to be switched to the factory so pre-igniter can be researched immediately. The timing is a bit slower but then they roast the probes so much faster and gives the opponent almost no time to respond without suffering hefty probe losses. You are probably a bit more vulnerable early on, but I like that once you finish making hellions you can have a tank out to defend much sooner.
I attached a replay of my game, I'm by no means are great player and the BO isn't refined at all. This is a ~800 Diamond game. The map positions kind of helped too.
Yea, I usually find that FE is very strong against this build. If you don't get your own expo up fast enough, usually the toss just out macros you. But I really like this build, i've had 50/50 success rate haha. Usually due to my own stupid mistake of going for their main base versus their other expo. Bad decision...>_>
Wow! I tried this today and it worked perfectly. Me and my opponent were drop positions on lost temple, and the hellion drop killed about 10+ probes. When my push came, i had 3 banshees, 1 medivac, 3 hellions, and about 12 marines. I simply had a bigger army and won
Great strategy and I think hellions will be used more in TvP. It will just take time.
I just made a significant update on the original post. The original strategy is still going strong for me, and TvP is my strongest matchup at ~1500 diamond. I've shared the things I've learned about this build since its original posting in the OP. I'm confident this build can compete at the highest levels and I want people who practice it to know they are using a build that is limited only by their mechanics. Enjoy!
This has become my opening in almost any TvP. The 3 helion drop really hits hard and lets you transition into a handful of different mid-late games depending on what tech you scout with the drop.
Tips: If he FE, you can drop your helions in his main, kill 5-6 probes and when his forces arrive to defend, load, move to the exp and proceed to kill some more probes. Repeat until he splits his army or all the probes are dead
Bonus: Catch the probe-ball out of stalker coverture. You can end the game right there.
On September 18 2010 10:00 Ender985 wrote: Bonus: Catch the probe-ball out of stalker coverture. You can end the game right there.
My favorite is when they try to run, realize they shouldn't be running, and click a mineral patch, so all the probes stack on one perfect dot. And then you kill all of them.
I'm going to require some help for this build. I've won 2 games and lost about 5. Replays arent available right now, my apologies, but basically, i just lose to mass stalkers. Im unable to transition fast enough to MM, and stalkers kill my banshees all the time. Even when i do kill many probes (my highest is 15), i still end up losing
Sometimes they do a timing push right after I drop my hellions for harrass for the first time, and i am unable to hold them off with the limited marines that i have, even with the bunker. I know that it is difficult to comment without a replay, my apologies.
Btw, should I build a raven like in the other 112 build? If so, whens a good time for the raven?
On September 19 2010 17:47 Gungalley wrote: I'm going to require some help for this build. I've won 2 games and lost about 5. Replays arent available right now, my apologies, but basically, i just lose to mass stalkers. Im unable to transition fast enough to MM, and stalkers kill my banshees all the time. Even when i do kill many probes (my highest is 15), i still end up losing
Sometimes they do a timing push right after I drop my hellions for harrass for the first time, and i am unable to hold them off with the limited marines that i have, even with the bunker. I know that it is difficult to comment without a replay, my apologies.
Btw, should I build a raven like in the other 112 build? If so, whens a good time for the raven?
Btw, I am high gold level.
If you scout 4 gates, build another bunker for incoming push, build a raven and fast marauders against mass stalkers... micro your bainshees around.. you should have enough
Yea thats the problem. I have no idea how to micro the army. I ctrl A them. how should I micro this 1/1/2 composition? stalkers cream my banshees. zealots cream my marines. sentries reduce damage even better tahn the pdd.
On September 19 2010 17:47 Gungalley wrote: I'm going to require some help for this build. I've won 2 games and lost about 5. Replays arent available right now, my apologies, but basically, i just lose to mass stalkers. Im unable to transition fast enough to MM, and stalkers kill my banshees all the time. Even when i do kill many probes (my highest is 15), i still end up losing
Sometimes they do a timing push right after I drop my hellions for harrass for the first time, and i am unable to hold them off with the limited marines that i have, even with the bunker. I know that it is difficult to comment without a replay, my apologies.
Btw, should I build a raven like in the other 112 build? If so, whens a good time for the raven?
Btw, I am high gold level.
Well, I can only help so much without replays, but I can give you some pointers:
From the sound of your post, they're going 3-4 gate stalker + sentry. This means a few things. First of all, they don't have blink (you can't get a lot of sentries and stalkers and still have gas for blink early). This means they can't get past your wall. Also, consider that they didn't go robo. You can win the game with cloaked banshees easily once you hold the push off.
Now, let's say you do your hellion drop. You scout 4 gates with your hellions/medivac. What you should immediately do at home is:
a) Start constructing a second bunker b) Put 5-6 SCVs on a control group and turn on auto-repair. c) Make sure you have advance vision of where they're attacking. You can take an SCV and just put him outside the bottom of your ramp. You just need to know so you can get workers to your bunker in time to repair.
I haven't encountered any 4-gate push that can break up my ramp with 6 scvs repairing it. Very shortly, you should have two banshees popping out, and a walled-off ramp with bunkers and SCVs on repair with two banshees is nearly unbreakable. We'll have to see replays if you need more help.
this build is fine but im extremely worried to try this on blistering sands...especially cuz of 4 gateways, i usually play 3 rax-starport style there but i have so much trouble playing on that map vs 4 gateways with normal rax play, i cannot have 2 bunkers next to choke and another next to destructible rocks....if i go 3 rax i get outnumbered in small numbers..pulling scvs does not work, but maybe i could use this strategy on that map, but im not sure if its gonna work cuz of rocks(im talking about 1300-1500 toss guys) EDIT: the thing is that his army can simply ignore my bunker and go to my base, which means, that only solution might be walling off with depo which is easily abusable by VRs/stalkers etc..
The new update is fantastic! Especially the flowchart. I would highly suggest more along those lines if you still feel the need to help us at the lower levels. Breakdown the logic of why this counters that and show it visually. Also that last post about the 4 Gate should be into the OP, maybe with some visual aid. I know 4 Gate (and VRs) are the bane of my SC existance.
I used to use this build and Protoss was my best MU. However, as I won I noticed it stopped working, probably because I didn't really know where to go with it once the opposition got a little better. I think I'm going to start practicing the Build again.
This build is insanely effective. I'm in 800-900 diamond and because of this build, TvP is by far my strongest matchup. It actually feels quite OP --- if P doesn't specifically counter early on, it is pretty much gg.
I actually have a faster blue flame build out, which comes at around 6:30"drop happens around 7 due to medivac and vision dodgeing" my follow up is a little flimsy, but im working on it.
^ My first time trying this build, think I executed it pretty good (although prob not the exact build). Funny that sc2replayed puts a Banshee Rush tag on it. Opponent was mid-Diamond I believe.
This build is insanely effective. I'm in 800-900 diamond and because of this build, TvP is by far my strongest matchup. It actually feels quite OP --- if P doesn't specifically counter early on, it is pretty much gg.
yeah man, it feels a little unfair just how effective the marines and banshees are together. I'm kind of expecting the nerf bat (probably on the banshees) but hopefully not.
I'm 1000 diamond atm and I grin ear to ear when I see Protoss. Sometimes an FE gives me a little trouble but not much since the stalkers are at the expo when my hellions hit and I do a lot of damage in the main. My biggest problem has been 1 base into high temps, but that kinda feels like a blind tech rush that would lose to a 3 rax (I could certainly be wrong, I almost never see it). Even before psi storm kicks in, a few feedbacks on my banshees really hurts my push. Even then, we trade armies and come out even on expos, I transition into mmm with ghosts and the long macro game begins!
Regarding the timing of the hellion drop, i'm pretty sure it's around 7 minutes because I've had 8 minute games where I killed 20 probes and the guy left. Don't quote me on this though, i'd have to check a replay.
On some maps I suggest extreme caution because a couple void rays charging on your extractor (or back rocks like on kulas) while you're out of position is awful. Scout scout scout! 2 proxy stargates can have a few void rays in your base right when your hellion drop hits. It is super duper all-in so if you scout it you win. Just a regular stargate build isn't too hard to deal with.
And if you don't see a robo with your hellions, get cloak and collect your win! If you see immortals(for some reason a lot of blind Immortal building going on because they assume marauders?), like even one since they're so expensive, marines and banshees totally win. I like to wait for stim and 6 banshees but honestly it's probably not a good idea unless they are really aggressive. Just my $1.05, still loving the build!
I love this build it has made TvP by best match up by far i just broke 1200 a couple days ago.
i like to throw in a couple ravens for PDD delays my push a little but it completely stomps over any protoss build ive come accross so far.. pheonixs giving me the most trouble early on.
marine/maruder/banshee + 1-2 raven.
ive also gotten ghosts before to emp my banshees so they dont get fedback..
In the game you just posted vs Toss FE, he still had way more probes than you even after your harass. It looked to me as if he could have easily acquired the tech and units necessary to hold you off, he just didn't know to. Then again it looked like you could have done a ton more damage with your drop that game as well by microing better in general and reloading into the medivac floating like 1/4 of a screen away from where the hellions made their last stand.
Thanks for this build. And it is tight, if your timing is off, you end up getting delayed by a lot (I sometimes forget to build the 2nd refinery, or the 2nd starport, or the techlabs on factory or starport). There seems to be this crucial window to do the hellion drop and if the hellion + medevac is late, or the banshee + marine followup is late, then it gets a bit harder.
What I'd like to add is that after the first 2 banshees, which I use to harass, I build a raven right after if I see more stalkers being warped in. I find that I just get enough energy for a PDD to plonk down in his base as my marines + 1 or 2 more banshees join the fray.
Just wanted to see what you think you should do against a rapid 2 gate mass stalker push (8 stalkers hit your base around 6:30). The map was blistering sands, probably the worst possible map for this build. They hit right as my hellion drop was leaving. If I'd had crisper timing, they would hit when my dropship is about 1/2 way to their base.
Here's a replay:
What I did wrong: - late factory (25 second delay is bad...) - no scout on the Xel Naga watch tower - didn't scout proxy pylon
I expect you to recommend a double bunker with repairing scvs, but then I have to double bunker the backdoor rocks as well. That's 400 minerals frozen... Worth it? Holding the Xel Naga tower for advance notice of the incoming attack would have been good this game, but you can't rely on holding it.
I didn't wall the ramp because of the map.
Test it with a practice partner and see what you think. I love this build but it feels very unsafe on Blistering Sands. Other maps, no problem.
Thats exactly what happened to me in one of my games. They attack right as I was leaving with my medevac hellions. I have no idea how to counter a mass stalker push. Shall post a replay of my next tvp. Btw, which website should i host my replays?
Just watched the replay. Yeah those rocks can be tricky cause they mess up with ur defenses, but still theres a lot things u could do.
You delayed factory a lot, you scouted the double gate so you should assume he might push early. Bunker was a good idea, but not blocking the ramp was bad imo. It would have been a lot easier if u walled off with a bunker and a barracks, he wouldnt even try to continue harassing. What I do(since I cant multitask that efficiently) is keep a worker idle next to my bunker for repairs when the time comes, and bring in a couple more if I have to. If I scout 4gate, double bunker. You should have a depot near the rocks just for permascout, or a marine. If he attacked the rocks with 6-8 stalkers he would just lose so much time you could have prepared a bunker near mineral line, and harrass his echo with ur hellions so much he would probably back off.
But yeah your biggest mistake was the delayed factory, hadnt you delayed that, you would caught him right on the way of his attack: he would back off to protect probes for sure.
Also that pylon, you saw that probe sneaking around, you shouldnt have left it wandering like that, he added 2 stalkers immediately because of this.
So:
-Block ramp -Adjust ur timing -Repair bunkers -Collect win
Yesterday I beat another protoss which hold me off enough to have his templars out, but I switched to ghosts/maraud asap and expanded, with my banshees I didnt let him expand, and eventually won in 30 min. Had my micro been better I would have won by 20min too. In my first push he blocked his ramp effieciently and I didnt back off my marines so they got raped down the ramp. So watch out for sentry blocks too.
Love the build, I do it in 90% of my TvP games as a 1400~ terran. The one thing that I have problems with is the FE just because it feels hard (read; impossible) to punish them early for it since I'm teching so insanely hard. Is harass with banshees and the eventual biopush really enough? I mean, I feel like colossi/storm already is more costefficient than a bio army, and combatting it (mostly HTs, since banshees do pretty well vs robo comps) while you're also behind eco wise seems pretty harsh.
EDIT: The FE I talk about is usually 1 gate FE or 1 gate robo FE, expo goes down at around 30 food for the P. The drop comes a bit after that so if I expo it feels like I'm quite behind in catching up since I don't scout it until then.
I havent really played against a fast expo, but it means less units and no early harrassment, so I would just salvage bunker, continue with the drop expand asap and push with 3-4 banshees and marines. If the drop kills 5+ drones, which it should, you should be in a good position for ur timing push, since opponent should have a much smaller army anyway.
I used to have a lot of problems going against P, but tried this build today and worked wonders. One game I ended up killing ALL of the probes because he JUST hit my main as I dropped. Took forever for their forces to get back and he didn't pull his probes fast enough.
One thing about the whole early rush from stalkers/zealots. Just have them scvs ready... I pulled 5 of them... if I didn't get there in time to repair, it would have hurt really bad (he had a handful of stalkers and zealots).
I would definitely get cloak just for the harassment of it even if they're pumping out observers... more things that they have to worry about = more I can harass.
BTW, I am platinum user and go against diamonds every match it seems... more points for me!
I have used this build with a lot of success. I came across something interesting today though. When my helion drop arrived I scouted 4 gates and a robo. Abruptly after my drop, he sent a warp prism to my base and basically all-in'd. I was taken much by surprise. I ran my SCV's away from the zealots that were in the prism, while my banshees and marines attacked them, but I just couldn't keep up with the reinforcements that he was warping in. BTW the 4 gate was scouted with the helion drop. He only had 2 gates and a cybernetics when my SCV scouted him in the beginning of the match. If I sent my banshees to his main, he had a couple stalkers there, so that wouldn't have helped. The only thing I could think of doing in retrospect, was to put my marines in my bunker and run my SCVs to the choke, while I build a viking to snipe the prism. The only problem is: he is able to mine and build units, while I am stuck with the units I have because I cannot mine with zealots chasing me and constant reinforcements.
On September 21 2010 12:24 micjmac wrote: I have used this build with a lot of success. I came across something interesting today though. When my helion drop arrived I scouted 4 gates and a robo. Abruptly after my drop, he sent a warp prism to my base and basically all-in'd. I was taken much by surprise. I ran my SCV's away from the zealots that were in the prism, while my banshees and marines attacked them, but I just couldn't keep up with the reinforcements that he was warping in. BTW the 4 gate was scouted with the helion drop. He only had 2 gates and a cybernetics when my SCV scouted him in the beginning of the match. If I sent my banshees to his main, he had a couple stalkers there, so that wouldn't have helped. The only thing I could think of doing in retrospect, was to put my marines in my bunker and run my SCVs to the choke, while I build a viking to snipe the prism. The only problem is: he is able to mine and build units, while I am stuck with the units I have because I cannot mine with zealots chasing me and constant reinforcements.
I don't see how you can lose to a warp prism at that point in the game, at the time you refer to, when your hellions arrive you should have a lot of marines at home and just about getting two banshee's.
It does not matter what he has in that warpprism to start with you have enough marines to kill it. Obviously if you fail to go for the source and try to fight the units before killing the prism then you might very well get overrun but just pounce the prism, take it down then kill any anti air units and have your banshee's clean up the rest.
On September 20 2010 15:24 Moja wrote: Just wanted to see what you think you should do against a rapid 2 gate mass stalker push (8 stalkers hit your base around 6:30). The map was blistering sands, probably the worst possible map for this build. They hit right as my hellion drop was leaving. If I'd had crisper timing, they would hit when my dropship is about 1/2 way to their base.
Here's a replay:
What I did wrong: - late factory (25 second delay is bad...) - no scout on the Xel Naga watch tower - didn't scout proxy pylon
I expect you to recommend a double bunker with repairing scvs, but then I have to double bunker the backdoor rocks as well. That's 400 minerals frozen... Worth it? Holding the Xel Naga tower for advance notice of the incoming attack would have been good this game, but you can't rely on holding it.
I didn't wall the ramp because of the map.
Test it with a practice partner and see what you think. I love this build but it feels very unsafe on Blistering Sands. Other maps, no problem.
I just 3 rax on blistering sands. I'm not saying it's impossible to do this build or a 1/1/1 but 4 gates are tough with those rocks and 3 rax is smooth and safe, and it can threaten their rocks too. Otherwise, there's no way around it - you'll have to double bunker both entrances (and probably have some well placed depots) to hold off a 4 gate on that map.
I use this strategy in almost all my tvp games, but I'll usually 3 rax on blistering sands and steppes of war, although steppes is just a preference thing - I like to have a tight sim city early on against early rushes and void rays, and put pressure on the toss if he tries to tech.
Holy crap i just beat my first diamond opponent. granted he wasn't that great. He was predictable and kept massing the same bunch of gateway robo units, and it was a 30 mins battle, but it worked.
Now, Is it just me or is this build kind of weak early game?
My comment I guess would be, I had done this "build" for awhile and was spoiled by the fact that iEchoic put up the order instead of watching the replays carefully. After awhile I noticed my version had started to become ineffective (because the Toss players were better and I am around ~1400+).
I watched the replay just for the sake of seeing what I was doing wrong, and I realized I was such a moron! I was flying my dropship RIGHT next to the minerals! iEchoic just landed them as soon as he could touch the base for more of a surprise. The effectiveness of my hellions skyrocketed!
I dont know where I really am going with this, except, even if stalkers ARE somewhat waiting in the mineral line, it would have to really be a significant number to make the drop not work if done effectively. Good Protoss do pylon around their base, which means sneaking the hellions in iEchoic method style works much better.
This build is absolutely fantastic! Thank you iEchoic you have answered my prayers. Tried this thing out now for 2 days and finally my TvP winrate has caught up with my TvZ and TvT.
No more beating 1400 terrans and zergs just to loose to 700 rating protosses with 50 apm the next game
"Oh some Terran is doing a hellion drop into banshee/expand with a battle cruiser transition? The best way to deal with that is probably have a lot of shit, because he probably won't."
On September 22 2010 12:53 captainwaffles wrote: Haha, this was just mentioned on the Daily (184).
Paraphrasing:
"Oh some Terran is doing a hellion drop into banshee/expand with a battle cruiser transition? The best way to deal with that is probably have a lot of shit, because he probably won't."
Hah, sounds interesting, anyone have an exact quote/what he was responding to?
On September 23 2010 03:09 captainwaffles wrote: Not til the vod comes out :D
VOD is out on Blip.tv. I pulled it this morning. Just need to dump it to my phone so I can watch on the way home from work (go go metro system).
Back on topic though...I was really rusty because hadn't played in a week and found myself in a TvP this morning. Even with my incredibly HORRID macro and really late timings I still had the ability to make the P so mad he rage quit by saying "I'm not wasting anymore time in this match up".
Again many thanks to you iEchoic for such a fantastic build.
I have a question though and I don't remember if this was asked earlier in the thread so my apologies if it has been asked already.
I only thought about this this morning while listening to Daily 186 on the way to work. Day9 was talking about the way Gretorp gets a fast banshee by going Ref before Rax and getting OC at 16 instead of 15.
Would doing that speed up this build even more because you get the factory faster? I will certainly try it in YABOT tonight but just wondering if anybody has looked at that before.
The factory will come faster with refinery before rax, but you're more vulnerable to early and mid-game pressure because you'll have a lower marine count. It's probably not worth the trade.
so is this pretty much an all in or do you build an expo? somewhere later in the build, i mean yea if it doesn't work obviously expo but do most of you just continue on the all in if the first attack doesn't kill the opponent but severely cripples him
On September 23 2010 05:19 TheOGBlitzKrieg wrote: so is this pretty much an all in or do you build an expo? somewhere later in the build, i mean yea if it doesn't work obviously expo but do most of you just continue on the all in if the first attack doesn't kill the opponent but severely cripples him
Definitely not an all-in.
I usually expo soon after the drop right as I do my first push.
thats what i thought i had a similar build to this which was bascially a hellion drop with 4 hellions and a reactor on raxx which went 1/1/1 opener into expo, i would pump 2 rines then reactor then factory then second gas tech swap when fact complete build starport pump out hellions and a medivac drop 4 hellions in the base and toast up some harvesters after the medivac i would drop a tech lab and pump out a raven as well as the bunker in this build and a tech lab on the fact and raxx back to reactor to transition after the harras into a more defensive state because after the harras i usually got attacked and the raven plus a siege tank and bunker would hold it off this sounds really interesting as well tho
I can't find the quote in Day[9]'s VOD, if anyone wants to be a fine gentleman and would let me know what time it happens at in here that'd be fantastic.
@SkullOne I've looked into ref before rax a bit, but there's unfortunately a very easy counter. An opponent who scouts you quickly or knows you go ref-rax can basically kill you right off the bat by 2-gating zealots into your base (they can block off your wall with their own pylon and cancel when they need to go into your base). I didn't watch the daily where day[9] discusses this, but if he has a counter for an aggressive 2-gate, I'd like to hear it.
@OHBlitzKrieg The expo comes after the 2 starports usually, after your first or second production cycle. It's relatively early for how aggressive the build is.
Thanks for this build iEchoic, it has helped me improve my TvP to my best matchup.
Im having similar issues as other players when countering the fast FE strat. Especially since after the patch, zealots become a lesser part of the P gateway force, and more stalkers/sentries being able to damage your banshees. How would you proceed when you arrive at the P base with the ~13marine, 2 hellion, 4 banshee timing push, and you find 2-3 zealots as meatshields and the rest stalkers/sentries? I guess it could be a micro issue on my part that makes it fail.
Im having similar issues as other players when countering the fast FE strat. Especially since after the patch, zealots become a lesser part of the P gateway force, and more stalkers/sentries being able to damage your banshees. How would you proceed when you arrive at the P base with the ~13marine, 2 hellion, 4 banshee timing push, and you find 2-3 zealots as meatshields and the rest stalkers/sentries? I guess it could be a micro issue on my part that makes it fail.
Have you read my update on the protoss FE? If you haven't, take a look and see if there's anything there that can help.
A heavy stalker/sentry force suggests that they're using a lot of gas on their gateway army, necessarily at the expense of tech. You need to make sure you're keeping them honest by forcing them to get a robo bay, as it's a wasteful structure for them by time you push. If you don't scout a robo bay, make sure you get cloak and punish them.
If they do get a robo, and then mass stalker/sentry, you should be able to harass with mass banshees (4-6+). This is where it really comes down to micro. You should be able to send them in, take out pylons, workers, important structures, etc. They can't punish your banshee harass without either pheonix or templar. I've had a lot of success attacking the back of my opponent's main and then bringing my ground forces in to attack the expo once they come to defend. You have to make a lot with the units you have and really exploit the mobility of your banshees.
iEchoic, plz do provide with more good replays, more importantly vs opponents that gave u a real hard time.
As for other average players like me, NOT microing ur first push would be detrimental to ur chances! Like iechoic said you can harrass with banshees and force them to defend while u move ur ground forces. A more simple way to attack is directly towards his ramp: if he blocks with sentries back off ur marines so they dont get killed, and try to snipe off the sentries, its really easy with banshees.
If u find opponent troops out in the open, abuse ur marines:group them in a reachable number(I use 5 as I have grid settings enabled), and send them on attack command with ur marines. As soon as he sees banshees he will try to pick them off with stalkers: use that to ur advantage, immediately select banshees and run them back,that will provide sooo many free hits for ur marines, and stalkers arent good vs marines. Banshees then snipe off sentries/immortals/zealots. If he attacks banshees again repeat.
Always have ur production buildings waypoint on a green banshee, reinforcements are valuable and pressure opponent like no end.
Very well thought out and informative... Not something I'd expect from someone I viewed as a cheater on Socom. I have a new found respect for you, sir.
Your build is fantastic. Ive been doing the hellion drop to great effect and have had impressive success with the banshee follow-up.
I have also been adding a raven to the mix after the first push, due to the higher pressence of stalkers that I have been experimenting since patch 1.1. What do you think of ravens as an addition to your banshees? You clear out observers and score heavily with cloak, plus PDD also grants a few free hits.
PS: I have been trying to save at least one hellion from the initial drop to then drop again as the protoss counter-push gets underway, as it seems the protoss is thinking about pushing right as the first drop lands and, after they repel it, the push comes right after. In the midst of that push and fight, the surviving hellion is dropped to do some additional damage.
how would this build work against a terran player? Sorry didn't read through every single post, so if someone asked and it was answered, just let me know and I will find it myself.
On September 23 2010 23:59 xprometheusx wrote: how would this build work against a terran player? Sorry didn't read through every single post, so if someone asked and it was answered, just let me know and I will find it myself.
Thanks
It would not work because marauders/marines will deal with the drop very efficiently and scan > cloak banshee.
On September 23 2010 23:59 xprometheusx wrote: how would this build work against a terran player? Sorry didn't read through every single post, so if someone asked and it was answered, just let me know and I will find it myself.
Thanks
I saw select do something like this, but he tech labbed his factory got blue flame, then dropped 3 hellions and roastttttttttttted scv's which was practically gg
On September 23 2010 23:59 xprometheusx wrote: how would this build work against a terran player? Sorry didn't read through every single post, so if someone asked and it was answered, just let me know and I will find it myself.
Thanks
Interestingly, a very similar build has become a standard TvT strat. You can actually do the same build, just instead of loading 3 hellions into the medivac, load your 8 marines into the medivac (you should have 8 when the medivac pops). When you drop the 8 marines on the opponent's mineral line, run the 3 hellions up the ramp.
You need to make a few adjustments but it's actually becoming more viable.
On September 23 2010 23:59 xprometheusx wrote: how would this build work against a terran player? Sorry didn't read through every single post, so if someone asked and it was answered, just let me know and I will find it myself.
Thanks
Interestingly, a very similar build has become a standard TvT strat. You can actually do the same build, just instead of loading 3 hellions into the medivac, load your 8 marines into the medivac (you should have 8 when the medivac pops). When you drop the 8 marines on the opponent's mineral line, run the 3 hellions up the ramp.
You need to make a few adjustments but it's actually becoming more viable.
but the ramp will be blocked, what would the hellions do then ?
btw, 10 win streak with at least 5 protoss getting some hellion drop taste there!cmon blizz gimme diamond!
I was reading your update vs the Protoss FE and i'm a bit unclear what your talking about with the 2 ghost timing attack, is this in addition to the banshees? Do you wait till you have 2 ghosts out and 2 - 4 banshees + marines when you attack?
Also I've been doing this strat with a reactor after the first marine, the drop timings seem to be the around same (I usually get a second gas a bit faster) and you get a few more marines out and better production capability in the midgame. Is there a particular reason you stick with the non reactored rax in the begining? Perhaps the gas cost?
On September 24 2010 04:51 policymaker wrote: but the ramp will be blocked, what would the hellions do then ?
Most terrans do not wall off against other terrans, so this is quite unlikely. If they do though, harass the supply depots in the wall, I imagine, force them to deal with you.
On September 24 2010 05:55 talecK wrote: I was reading your update vs the Protoss FE and i'm a bit unclear what your talking about with the 2 ghost timing attack, is this in addition to the banshees? Do you wait till you have 2 ghosts out and 2 - 4 banshees + marines when you attack?
Also I've been doing this strat with a reactor after the first marine, the drop timings seem to be the around same (I usually get a second gas a bit faster) and you get a few more marines out and better production capability in the midgame. Is there a particular reason you stick with the non reactored rax in the begining? Perhaps the gas cost?
i think youre preparing for them to timing attack you.
On September 24 2010 04:51 policymaker wrote: but the ramp will be blocked, what would the hellions do then ?
Most terrans do not wall off against other terrans, so this is quite unlikely. If they do though, harass the supply depots in the wall, I imagine, force them to deal with you.
yeah i didnt think about that, but if they do block the ramp then hellions cant do anything
On September 24 2010 04:51 policymaker wrote: but the ramp will be blocked, what would the hellions do then ?
Most terrans do not wall off against other terrans, so this is quite unlikely. If they do though, harass the supply depots in the wall, I imagine, force them to deal with you.
yeah i didnt think about that, but if they do block the ramp then hellions cant do anything
You'll obviously scout whether he's walling off or not when you scout at 10 supply
Obviously I want to thank you for the build before I criticize it; because it's truly a solid BO that can throw a good deal of protosses off guard.
I'm noticing that some protoss, after having scouted my bunker/wall skips mass-stalkers in favour of adding a 2-4 sentries to their immortal/stalker army and they then takes their expo, putting me behind unless my hellion drop is successful - which it doesn't necessarily has to be, given that they are capable of not hotkeying all their units to "1" and actually leaving 1-3 stalkers behind after having read into my strategy. Another problem I'm sometimes seeing are 2 cannons being placed in advance near their expansion which leaves me unable to move in with only marines/banshees and my 1 medivac.
Do you really feel that hellions will be viable against "better" players. To me it seems that the better the opposition is, the less incitement I have to try the hellion-drop. Isn't it viable enough to put money on a quicker cc, ghosts, or one additional rax and just opt for a timing-push, skipping the harass completely?
I think you have it wrong. the thing is in this echo build, the hellions are kinda like a way to keep the enemy in their base defending while you buy your time to get your banshee out while the harass is ongoing.
hellions are being so cheap at 100minerals a piece. to make the 3 hellions pay for themself,all you need is 5-6worker kills(50 per worker).once you factor in mining time lost,and rebuilding the workers time, theres really no possibility that your hellion drop doesnt pay for itself,even if you just manage to get 3 worker kills.
The thing being is that; protoss doesn't have any reason to move out if they read into this strategy. They won't be able to break my bunker/wall off 1 base (without sufficient tech) - meaning that it makes much more sense for the protoss to stay within his own perimeters with only a few scouts roaming the map, whilst opting for a macro-game with an earlier expansion.
Given that he does exactly that, it's so easy for him to play safe with his main force up front, whilst leaving 1-3 stalkers on tactical locations to make me pull back my dropship, or drop in an unfavourable location or whilst being fired upon, both options giving him time to move his probes in advance.
If you manage to kill something, it's fine -- but the times when the protoss reacts properly, the drop is a heavy liability.
1-3stalkers cannot kill your drop fast enough for it to matter, i fully understand what your talking about, but my personal experience using this build is that there will ALWAYS be holes for a drop to go through. there's no such thing as a perfect defense.
in this case where the protoss FE, whats going to stop you from FE yourself? this build isnt the end all be all strat vs protoss. you will have to modify it according to what the enemy does. There's new replays posted by echo,he faced a FE protoss, so he decided to FE himself and change to marauders.
Please do not follow this guide exactly & blindly. improvise and change it as needed as the enemy is a human player. there's no such thing as a sure win strategy.
Obviously I adapt, in every game - there is no other way when playing against upper diamond players. But I want to discuss the downside with wasting 300 minerals against an opponent that is capable of defending against it, on a map where it's possible to defend somewhat easily (steppes of war ie. 2 pylons on both sides of the base gives proper vision and 1-3 stalkers will make sure that all probes has a chance to move before any trio of hellions gets within range).
In plaintext: Do you (readers) feel that with better opponents, that it makes more sense to skip the harass in favour of a stronger timing push?
What would you add instead of 3 hellions? (another barrack, ghost-tech, expansion ... )
vs a scenario where a drop wont be cost effective,but the protoss is on 1 base teching to HTs:- i wouldnt drop and just use the 3 hellions in my main army push. they will help to tank for my marines & be somewhat effective against the zealots.
vs a scenario where a drop wont be cost effective(! damn thats hard to imagine :D) and the protoss FE:-
i would FE myself & throw down 4more raxes and tech labs to transition into a Barracks play. i would keep the 2 starport techlabbed as it will still give me my medivacs 2 by 2s, and giving me to option to tech switch into Ravens/BC as needed. yes i still love my BCs, as TANKS. their dps is respectable,but hell they can tank a lot of stalker shots.
i think this is the only 2 scenarios that i've faced using this build.
Hey Echoic, it's amazing how popular this build has become. I've been seeing this build about every 3rd game against terran in the ladder, whether they're 800 points or 1500. I've been using a strong fe build lately on most maps, and it's felt like your build doesn't quite have an answer to a decent fast expand build.
Because 1 gas fe's are so stalker heavy, you already have the right unit composition for either the 10 minute 4 banshee push or 12 minute 6-8 banshee push. As long as you scout it with early aggression (bunker with no marauders pretty much gives it away), it seems too easy to counter just by getting earlier gas/robo/sentries.
The timing push isn't really possible to deal with on maps with a completely open natural (metalopolis, delta quadrant, kulas), but on just about every other map decent ff/g-shield usage+mass stalker annihilates it. Usual response I see is a raven added in, but by the time it has energy for pdd, the timing window is gone (storm's done).
Could you put up a replay of your response to an actually well put together fast expand build? I've yet to see a variation of your build that can hit before the expansion pays for itself.
That sinatra replay was one of the sadder games I've seen to date.. His build: 13 gate(doesn't build a zealot) into nexus into 30 second supply block then eventually into colossus (after seeing banshees).And that "shit's broken" was hilarious.
I have been employing this hellion drop against nearly all my opponents of all races since I started using this strat and its pushed me from 800->1200 and I'm still winning like crazy. You only need to kill about 4 probes for it to be effective. Be sure to drop your hellions on the side of the base and micro them in yourself and you will definitely get some. If they try to run the probes without the main army being right nearby they just lose even more. The most effective counter if you see this harass is to just leave your probes mining unless your main force is VERY clos. When you run the probes you doom yourself if you don't kill those hellions immediately.
I think the drop has value beyond the probes you kill. First, if they are cannoning up, then they are almost nullifying the cost to you by sinking money into stationary defense (I've been using this build for two weeks or so and I just encountered a cannoned mineral line for the first time today (like an idiot, I ran right into it)).
Secondly, drops operate on the psychology of the opponent. Just making the dropship visible then pulling away can force a defensive overreaction, or place an opponent on edge (If I see a warp prism hover near my mineral line only to disappear, I am going to be wary of the drop). Hence, a dropship reveal is, imo, a tactic in and of itself.
Finally, one of the beauties of this build is that I get a sense of anything cheesy going on across the map when I send the dropship out and bring it back. Tonight, my toss opponent tried to take the gold natural close to my base on SOW and I caught it with my dropship. Not only do we get a vision of large swathes of map with the medivac packed with hellions, but we also get a scan of his base that doesn't cost us a MULE.
For the time being, I don't see much value in skipping the drop-harass. I find it beneficial in many ways.
Thanks for such precision in your write-up and in your repsones, iEchoic. I return to this thread everyday to see how the build is faring and your revisions on the 17th were helpful as variations on the toss FE have become all but standard.
To anyone struggling to succeed with this build, as iEchoic said, the BO is tight and requires quality execution to work. I don't always win with this opening, but when I keep my macro up while microing the banshees and I target the sentries then the stalkers, I don't always win on the spot, but I at least break even.
On September 25 2010 10:13 Unstable wrote: Do you really feel that hellions will be viable against "better" players. To me it seems that the better the opposition is, the less incitement I have to try the hellion-drop. Isn't it viable enough to put money on a quicker cc, ghosts, or one additional rax and just opt for a timing-push, skipping the harass completely?
I've thought about this question a lot.
To answer your question in a word, 'yes'. First of all, if you check out the replays, I have games vs some quite good players up. lefNaij is a tip-top P player, Sinatra is relatively well-known and a few others aren't bad either. I believe the drops were worthwhile against both players. I am very confident the drop is strong against any level of player. From experience at ~1600, I can definitely tell the hellion drop is worthwhile against good players.
One thing that is crucial to realize is that you receive quite a few intangibles from the hellion drop. You can't just measure the difference off the 'units lost' tab. All the intangibles from the exchange favor you.
Looking at it in-depth, let's do a objective comparison of what both sides accomplish, in the worst-case scenario of the hellion drop:
Terran Player: - Perfect scouting info (hellions look around, fly medivac around after to see the rest) - Forces protoss player to stay in his base - At least minor economic damage* (see below)
Protoss player: - 300 minerals worth of hellions killed. Terran player has a medivac instead of a banshee to use later.
*When I say 'at least minor economic damage', I mean that you should always be able to kill 3-4 probes with good micro, regardless your opponent's actions. Simply dropping, running in and getting off one volley with hellions will insta-kill at least 2 probes. You can stand there and take shots until you die and can kill 3-5 easily, even if your opponent is sitting in his mineral line.
If you kill 4 probes with your hellions, the drop was successful. We're often spoiled by the games where we drop hellions and kill the entire mineral line. But that really isn't necessary. 200 minerals worth of probes that early in the game compounds. At around ~1 mineral/sec (optimal saturation, so 5 minutes after expo goes up), 5 minutes of mining on 4 probes is 1200 minerals. Killing 4 probes, counting your mules, gives you economic control of the game.
If you drop in, run in his mineral line to see 5 stalkers, get off 2-3 volleys and kill 4-5 probes, you've done good. You have perfect scouting info, you now have the economic lead, and you're in a prime position to adapt.
If you do not want to do the hellion drop, I actually recommend still making 3-4 hellions. They actually are very good when you push against zealots. The bad thing about not dropping, though, is that you're playing in the dark and uncertain of your comparative economic level. But I just love hellions in general.
Hope that helps.
Also, thanks for the feedback everyone, I appreciate all of it.
I find that the biggest danger in this build is not knowing what your opponent has, ie. not scouting, or he is doing a proxy somewhere else, liek a proxy stargate.
As it goes, this build is basically running off a basic 1/1/1 which is proven many times to be the counter to any kind of proxy stargates or fast DT tech due to us having unlocked nearly every unit in the terran tree.
And echo has just posted a extremely good explaination on how the drop gives you scouting info. and explained waaay better than i can that no matter what,the hellion drop IS going to be worth it :D tho i admit sometimes if i see too much defense i rather not drop and use them for my main army timing push as tanks for my marines,and additional DPS vs zealots
hellion drop is always worthed it. unless he parks 5 stalkers at his mineral line. but you cant scout what is not in his base, although if you are good enough (im not) u should have a degree of suspicion of proxy buildings based on how many units and buildings he has at a certain time period.
Love this build. I do seem to have problems against fast protoss FE builds that just mass zealot and stalker with a few immortals thrown in. I simply don't have enough units to defend.
On September 26 2010 13:59 jay`t wrote: Love this build. I do seem to have problems against fast protoss FE builds that just mass zealot and stalker with a few immortals thrown in. I simply don't have enough units to defend.
Defending shouldn't be a problem, as you don't need to lift the expo out of your base until you're safe. Your walloff + repair should be enough to hold off anything.
Either way, I've seen a lot of people still having trouble with the protoss FE, so I've added another replay. If you end up losing to a FE build, you can post your replay in here as well and I'll take a look.
Do you really feel that hellions will be viable against "better" players. To me it seems that the better the opposition is, the less incitement I have to try the hellion-drop. Isn't it viable enough to put money on a quicker cc, ghosts, or one additional rax and just opt for a timing-push, skipping the harass completely?
Go look @ trumps latest video this build is used in a game v Huk, don't come much better :D yes he got lucky but count how many probes Huk lost.
I might have found the Protoss counter by accident, but FEing and alot of cannons at your choke and a few scattered protecting your mineral line seems to allow protoss to pretty much power at will.
Do you really feel that hellions will be viable against "better" players. To me it seems that the better the opposition is, the less incitement I have to try the hellion-drop. Isn't it viable enough to put money on a quicker cc, ghosts, or one additional rax and just opt for a timing-push, skipping the harass completely?
Go look @ trumps latest video this build is used in a game v Huk, don't come much better :D yes he got lucky but count how many probes Huk lost.
I didn't see it and I like Trump's stream, mind explaining his results/opinions?
On September 26 2010 17:37 Dadant wrote: Go look @ trumps latest video this build is used in a game v Huk, don't come much better :D yes he got lucky but count how many probes Huk lost.
Link? Been trying various ways to search without success.
On September 26 2010 17:37 Dadant wrote: Go look @ trumps latest video this build is used in a game v Huk, don't come much better :D yes he got lucky but count how many probes Huk lost.
Link? Been trying various ways to search without success.
i've been doing my own version of this strategy that is very very similar to this and i thought i might be able to add onto it... feel free to critique my logic/strategy... it's basically the same as this except i've been gonig 12 Raxx 12 gas to get my gas flowing earlier because @100gas i do add factory and continue pumping marines as well as the bunker but... i've been adding a reactor to the raxx following fastly behind laying down the factory so that i can tech swap when the fact is up and pump hellions... i pump 4 hellions and the 4th comes out just as the medivac pops... i then load them up and proceed with the drop and do musical tech swap with my buildings... i lift off the factory land it to produce a tech lab... produce a tech lab on the starport and land the raxx back on the reactor to continue marine production... the hellion drop lands with 4 hellions which allow for more dps on probes and usually a more succesfull drop but not always the case XD and i feel this version allows for more marines upon the timing push... earlier aggression is the weakness i feel but the bunker/wall can really neglect this... i'll upload a replay of it working with flawless timings when i get a chance
redlol got supply blocked i think, made only 4 banshees and he didnt even micro them in battle... huk just owned him even though that drop was sooo good.
What about FE into storm? Whenever my opponent goes colossi based armies, I have very little problems handleing it, FE or not. But HTs are the bane of my existence. Do I get cloak to always keep energy down? EMP banshees? Stop banshee production completely and transition?
What to do against 1-2 collossus against a gate army at your first push?
u cannot really focus fire the collosiwith only 2 vikings because u got too little bainshees for his stalkers and zealots and sentries.. they will burn ur army before u can get the collosus microing away?
When do u generally recommend to build tech lab + reactor ?
do u stop building marines from the 1st barrac with no addonafter the push and add an addon ?
On September 27 2010 07:59 MasterFischer wrote: What to do against 1-2 collossus against a gate army at your first push?
u cannot really focus fire the collosiwith only 2 vikings because u got too little bainshees for his stalkers and zealots and sentries.. they will burn ur army before u can get the collosus microing away?
When do u generally recommend to build tech lab + reactor ?
do u stop building marines from the 1st barrac with no addonafter the push and add an addon ?
I can't speak to the last 2 questions, but I read somewhere either in this thread or in the thread about the toss POV that banshees actually do more dps to colossi than vikings do. So, i guess sticking to the banshee composition would work out just fine.
On September 27 2010 07:59 MasterFischer wrote: What to do against 1-2 collossus against a gate army at your first push?
u cannot really focus fire the collosiwith only 2 vikings because u got too little bainshees for his stalkers and zealots and sentries.. they will burn ur army before u can get the collosus microing away?
When do u generally recommend to build tech lab + reactor ?
do u stop building marines from the 1st barrac with no addonafter the push and add an addon ?
I can't speak to the last 2 questions, but I read somewhere either in this thread or in the thread about the toss POV that banshees actually do more dps to colossi than vikings do. So, i guess sticking to the banshee composition would work out just fine.
The main problem with colossi during the timing push is that they will do a ton of damage to your marines before they drop. If I scout robo tech during the drop, i will usually scan their base before i push. If I see a robo bay, I go harass with my banshees while switching over production to marauder and a raven
On September 27 2010 07:02 gillon wrote: What about FE into storm? Whenever my opponent goes colossi based armies, I have very little problems handleing it, FE or not. But HTs are the bane of my existence. Do I get cloak to always keep energy down? EMP banshees? Stop banshee production completely and transition?
Thanks.
Stop building banshees completely after HTs are up. Switch starport to a reactor and pump medivacs.
On September 27 2010 07:02 gillon wrote: What about FE into storm? Whenever my opponent goes colossi based armies, I have very little problems handleing it, FE or not. But HTs are the bane of my existence. Do I get cloak to always keep energy down? EMP banshees? Stop banshee production completely and transition?
Thanks.
Stop building banshees completely after HTs are up. Switch starport to a reactor and pump medivacs.
meh, i like ghosts mainly vs HT's get ghosts with cloak after you scout it, place a nice emp and GG no storm you win
So far I've been unsuccessful with this build. I've been wondering if there's a way to harass his front door to make sure he doesn't have stalkers standing next to his nexus. But I can't help but think that if he decides to push out of his base with stalkers, your marines army is too slow to retreat and will get picked off.
Similarly, I was wondering if perhaps there was a way to commit more into the drop (since it's very hard for them to pierce the bunker turtle anyway). Perhaps by saccing 1 marine and delaying the starport a little bit to get a tech labs from the rax and research flames to do a 4bluehellions drop instead?
I really like this build - had some success with it. However, I just played a match where I got totally roflstomped, and I'm not reallly sure what I did wrong.
The drop was a total and utter failure - he saw it coming, and I didn't get a single probe... does failure of the drop generally = loss? But apart from that, I don't think I was significantly outmacroed, and I had a similar amount of units to the replays at the time, I think. He went mass stalkers, bypassed my bunker through the back, and I just crumbled.
On September 28 2010 08:12 ale_jrb wrote: Hey all.
I really like this build - had some success with it. However, I just played a match where I got totally roflstomped, and I'm not reallly sure what I did wrong.
The drop was a total and utter failure - he saw it coming, and I didn't get a single probe... does failure of the drop generally = loss? But apart from that, I don't think I was significantly outmacroed, and I had a similar amount of units to the replays at the time, I think. He went mass stalkers, bypassed my bunker through the back, and I just crumbled.
Help please? Thanks!
Here's some things I think will help you out:
1) The build actually runs a bit smoother if you start the refinery after the starport instead of the factory (bolded as this is the most common build mistake I see). This will balance out your gas/minerals more and you should have more marines than you had instead of too much gas. This will also help with a second bunker (see #3).
2) I would definitely recommend dropping your hellions on the ridge of his base and running them in manually. I think if you had came down the left side instead (so not past his ramp where his army will most likely be), and dropped on the outer ridge and ran in, you would have had a probe barbecue. Dropping at the mineral line gives him much more time to respond and spot you, as hellions are faster than medivacs.
3) Unfortunately, blistering sands is a difficult map against brute-force strats like 4gate/robo. I would definitely recommend placing an extra bunker at your rocks with excess money after your starports. With a bunker + mass SCV repair, you can usually hold off.
Hope that helps.
On September 27 2010 07:36 guyGOTgirth wrote: I think the cloak is a great idea. I'm going to try that in the future.
High level input on that?
I've thought about this, and I really want to try just getting cloak and cloak/decloaking to <25 energy against just templar tech (no pheonix) and harassing very aggressively - dropping nexuses and etc. I think it may be effective, but I haven't got a chance to really try it out yet. If anyone tries it, let me know.
On September 28 2010 08:12 ale_jrb wrote: Hey all.
I really like this build - had some success with it. However, I just played a match where I got totally roflstomped, and I'm not reallly sure what I did wrong.
The drop was a total and utter failure - he saw it coming, and I didn't get a single probe... does failure of the drop generally = loss? But apart from that, I don't think I was significantly outmacroed, and I had a similar amount of units to the replays at the time, I think. He went mass stalkers, bypassed my bunker through the back, and I just crumbled.
Help please? Thanks!
Here's some things I think will help you out:
1) The build actually runs a bit smoother if you start the refinery after the starport instead of the factory (bolded as this is the most common build mistake I see). This will balance out your gas/minerals more and you should have more marines than you had instead of too much gas. This will also help with a second bunker (see #3).
2) I would definitely recommend dropping your hellions on the ridge of his base and running them in manually. I think if you had came down the left side instead (so not past his ramp where his army will most likely be), and dropped on the outer ridge and ran in, you would have had a probe barbecue. Dropping at the mineral line gives him much more time to respond and spot you, as hellions are faster than medivacs.
3) Unfortunately, blistering sands is a difficult map against brute-force strats like 4gate/robo. I would definitely recommend placing an extra bunker at your rocks with excess money after your starports. With a bunker + mass SCV repair, you can usually hold off.
Hope that helps.
Thanks!
Yeah, I totally forgot how BS was laid out, and that his army was probably by the ramp. Didn't know whether to abort the drop and try and run away, drop straight away where I was intending, or try running away in the medivac a bit and drop there... went for the last one; didn't work! :D It's a shame, because I noted when I watched the replay that his army was miles away, could have got soooo many and pretty much won there. Oh well.
I shall correct the refinery time, remember where to drop on BS and remember to build another bunker.
Okay so using this against zerg always works for me, Is there a reason I shouldnt use it against zerg? I mean Hellions rape Lings/Drones/Queens, which is pretty much all they have when I drop... Additionally if they go Roaches or Some FE build my Banshees are out early enough to hit them and do decent damage. Then when they go mutas to harras transition into some thors,(which destroy mutas)
I got lucky with his probes going to his expansion where I almost lost my medivac on the way via the left side.
My timing push sucked and I made too many depots, but I really came back with cloaked banshees and harassment despite there being 4-5 observers out. I think I'll be going straight into banshee harass as my marines come up for a push...
Just want to say that this build by iEchoic is awesome!! Being a newb that I am (never played RTS before), and a lowly Silver atm. Yada Yada Yada.......But after weeks of watching Trump's vods and reading this thread (practicing the build as well), I have to admit, this build is very very strong vs ANY RACE. I have yet to lose atm, going on a 12 Game winning streak. I have been playing against gold, platinum, and diamond players and winning them all!!
I have used this fairly effectively against zerg as well, but the speedlings on creep are able to respond and kill your drop much more easily then protoss, so the drop doesnt work as well. You might be better off to just use a fast pre-ignite build and just run in as most zerg fast expand/rarely use queen to block ramp. This way you can potentially have a zergling roast when they come for you and you arrive at about the same time. 1000+ zerg also generally see your drop coming with well placed overlords (this is the real issue). Its possible to make a viking first and try to kill the overlords and then do a slightly delayed drop, I will probably try that idea out.
I do a variation of that hellion drop that was mentioned earlier.
My version goes a bit like this:
10 depot 12 rax 13 gas 15 OC Pump as many marines as you can afford (Bunker is also recommended. You can salvage later) Factory as soon as 100 gas Tech lab on rax Swap fact and rax for lab as soon as fact finishes. Starport after fact finishes Research pre-igniter. Pump hellions Dropship as soon as starport finishes
Once your 3rd or 4th hellion pops out, load up and head over. By the time you reach the enemy base, pre-igniter should be finishing. If at all possible, I recommend dropping the hellions in a dark blindspot in the base so they don't see the dropship coming and react quickly. Run the hellions in and target as many workers as possible. I do recommend having 2 control groups for your hellions, splitting them into 2 groups of 2. This will give you the best coverage possible. With pre-igniter, it takes 2 attacks to kill any worker. I would advise not to lose the hellions if at all possible, but if you managed to kill nearly every worker, then they've already paid for themselves two-fold even if you lose them.
I also recommend that whilst you are roasting workers, you transition into tank tech since the tech lab is already on the factory. Also get a lab on your starport and get a raven or two out asap to deal with stalkers and continue pumping marauders and marines. Once you've killed most of the workers in the enemy's main, this would also be a good time for you to expand.
In my experience, the drop can be a 50/50 success/failure if you don't have the pre-igniter upgrade. This is mainly due to needing 3 shots to kill any workers (4 if against SCVs actually). With pre-ig, it is always 2 shot kills and far more damaging.
@chickensnack This is exactly the build I come up with. The harass is incredibly more effective with pre-igniter and very hard to deal with for only a few second delay. If they try to move their drones, they will all die in one shot of the 3/4 hellions. In most of the case you can even save them all, repair at base if necessary and come again a little bit latter. When the banshee is up you can harass expo and base at the same time.
I have a couple of other adjustment in my build: - I alway build a second bunker as soon as the first is full - I use a marine or suv to get the closest watch tower to make sure I will see a push coming.
From my point of view those two points are mandatory as the protos will usually have a more important army and will be able to pass through your ramp. Pulling on time 4/6 suv to repair your bunkers will make the difference.
Keep in mine that a very good harass will automatically put the adversary in a position of all-in. So get prepared.
Chickensack: The main issue I have with that variation is that any delay in sending off your dropship will usually allow toss to see the drop with an observer. Standard toss builds usually have an observer in your base 5-10 seconds after you send the dropship (if you are using the normal iEchoic build). So, any delay lets them see it's coming.
iEchoic: The main problem I have with YOUR build is a general front-door weakness just before/during/after the drop. If the toss is going 3 or 4-gate pressure, you don't have any way to scout it until you get your drop in, and thus won't know if you need a second bunker. The pressure comes before the drop. Even if you have a second bunker, you still have to have time to bring SCVs to the front to repair. And even if you do that, you need a wall off, or toss can just run by. My variation is to just always throw down a late second bunker while the dropship is building. Getting repairing SCVs in time is always an issue for me, I try to have a forward scout to see if pressure is coming.
Lastly, I find the helion drop to be completely ineffective against a toss who is employing sim city. Like, 2 probes TOPS. Hm...
On September 29 2010 09:32 Janook wrote: iEchoic: The main problem I have with YOUR build is a general front-door weakness just before/during/after the drop. If the toss is going 3 or 4-gate pressure, you don't have any way to scout it until you get your drop in, and thus won't know if you need a second bunker. Even if you have a second bunker, you still have to have time to bring SCVs to the front to repair. And even if you do that, you need a wall off, or toss can just run by. My variation is to just always throw down a late second bunker while the dropship is building. Getting repairing SCVs in time is always an issue for me, I try to have a forward scout to see if pressure is coming.
I've never really had trouble (exceptions being blistering sands and warping in the back on DQ) holding off 4-gate. It is really important that you are able to see the attack ahead of time. Try to hold the nearest watchtower, and if that's not possible, put an SCV a bit past the bottom of your ramp to get 3-4 sec warning. Keep SCVs on speed-dial.
You should be able to hold off a 4-gate, I've done it quite a few times (not to mention people really stop 4gating at high levels because it's terrible PvT), but if you're more comfortable with 2 bunkers you definitely can.
There are a few situations where the drop isn't incredibly effective, and I've been working on pulling back the drop to strengthen a timing push. I may modify the OP with these details when I'm done.
Playing protoss since this build is not very common (at 1200Diamond) I always forget that hellion drop can be happening and I forget to either put stalker in the back or make some walls with buildings.
I would say if I lose it's always because of the drop that manage to kill like 10 probes. Since I play fine against terran that don't drop but still go marines banshees I think I should always be prepared for it when a terran is not going marauders and place my units accordingly (since most of the time it's either heavy bio or marines + raven/banshees as the most common builds).
Well, the build specifies building an extra bunker if you see 4-gate pressure coming. I totally agree, My question is: how do you know 4-gate pressure is coming? It comes before you can scout with the drop!
On September 29 2010 09:45 Janook wrote: Well, the build specifies building an extra bunker if you see 4-gate pressure coming. I totally agree, My question is: how do you know 4-gate pressure is coming? It comes before you can scout with the drop!
Well, a big 4-gate push usually comes after your drop arrives. Anything before that tends to be kind of puny and stoppable with a bunker, imo. You can only have so much stuff by time the terran gets his first starport unit out.
I've had a similar problem to the one you describe. But it primarily happens on Steppes of War. The difficulty on that map is that the Xel Naga towers are not helpful for spotting his early troop movement AND the distance between the minerals and my wall at the ramp is annoyingly long. iEchoic made the suggestion that you place an scv at the base of your ramp. This generally works, but on Steppes of War, I've had more success leaving a scout in the middle of the map. As soon as you see him moving in, bring your hotkeyed auto-repair workers to the wall. Sometimes, this is an overreaction; but with that short distance between bases and long distance between workers and wall, I'd rather gamble and lose some economy to avoid the threat of getting steamrolled.
Finally, if your scouting probe in the beginning of the game doesn't live to see more than 2 gates go down, save your third scan and use that shortly before your drop to gauge his gate number, unit count, and possibly, any aggressive troop movement.
After Day[9]'s Funday Monday on carrier rushing last night, the 1/1/2 helped me scout a toss attempt to rush carriers. After roasting every one of his probes with my hellions, he quit with the carrier queued up. This build is CARRIER-RUSH-PROOF. =P
Here's me executing the build, I'm around 1500 diamond, my macro definitely falls when I'm microing and my opponent foolishly lets me hold both the xelnaga watchtowers for a while (this is blistering sands), any feedback would be appreciated, I'm really scared when I'm getting contained and I feel like he's expanding. Anyone struggling doing this build against early pressure might wanna check this out, but I dunno it felt like my opponent coulda done better, and of course I have loads of room to improve. Also I fail on some parts of the build, ie techlab on the factory etc, on this map I actually like getting a few more hellions to run out and scout (wish I had done that, woulda been more comfortable pushing out if I know he's got a nexus going up and isn't' just going to contain the hell out of me on 1 base.
Thanks again for this thread, I am really liking this build (I really hate any 3rax opening types...) and winning on blistering sands really makes me feel the build is strong. Any comments on the rep would be great, the 4 rax marine stuff at end feels really weird but when I can't expand I dunno wtf else to do, and I mine out my main so fast with two OC MULEing leaving buttloads of minerals.
thanks for this buddy. Ive been using this build for a while and its got a 90percent success rate. The other 10 is usually because i did something stupid like not scout or forget the bunker but otherwise very solid. Ive even been playing around and tweaking it against z and t and ive found that just a few changes can work just as well as against protoss.
The nice thing is that you can transition and adapt very easily to counter anything.
Just one question that i hope someone can answer. When i get the second banshee i build a second refinery to keep gas up but i always have way too many minerals. Am i doing something wrong? Im pumping out units and have at rax fax and ports and have even built extra buildings to dump minerals but i never can keep them low without queing up units. Any advice?
On September 29 2010 15:27 eu.exodus wrote: thanks for this buddy. Ive been using this build for a while and its got a 90percent success rate. The other 10 is usually because i did something stupid like not scout or forget the bunker but otherwise very solid. Ive even been playing around and tweaking it against z and t and ive found that just a few changes can work just as well as against protoss.
The nice thing is that you can transition and adapt very easily to counter anything.
Just one question that i hope someone can answer. When i get the second banshee i build a second refinery to keep gas up but i always have way too many minerals. Am i doing something wrong? Im pumping out units and have at rax fax and ports and have even built extra buildings to dump minerals but i never can keep them low without queing up units. Any advice?
iEchoic said for the 2nd gas
1) The build actually runs a bit smoother if you start the refinery after the starport instead of the factory (bolded as this is the most common build mistake I see). This will balance out your gas/minerals more and you should have more marines than you had instead of too much gas. This will also help with a second bunker (see #3).
So if you get 2nd gas after the 2nd banshee that's pretty late, if you have way too many minerals just get the expo up ASAP from the spare minerals and more rax/marines, if he's pressuring you alot so you can't expo chances are he doesnt have any collosus or templar tech yet so marines are fine (I just get the CC into an OC so its rdy for the expo and can muule and keep mining the main and throw down more rax), if he's not pressuring you get the expo and additional gases up earlier.
sounds good. At one point i was expanding when I hellion harrassed but i think if I hold the expand and build another rax (reactor?) it could help dump minerals. I think I was focussing a bit too much on minerals like I had to do with other builds. Thanks.
Edit : I nearly forgot to ask. I lost one of my games to a guy that had hidden stargates and mass canons when he saw banshees so i had counter pushing and really good void ray micro. I just couldnt quite get my marines to catch up and i think on most high groun mains it could hurt you if the guy has decent micro. I think if i had stims i think i would had owned them.
On September 29 2010 15:43 eu.exodus wrote: sounds good. At one point i was expanding when I hellion harrassed but i think if I hold the expand and build another rax (reactor?) it could help dump minerals. I think I was focussing a bit too much on minerals like I had to do with other builds. Thanks.
When I'm throwing down more rax there I honestly don't like reactors because P will inevitably get collusos or what I fear more templar, so marine become food. you've got the excess minerals so just get 2 naked rax because chances are later on you want marauder, at least that's how I feel.
edit in response to your edit: I dunno I feel that stim timing depends heavily on the flow of the game, all I can really say, maybe iEchoic will have a better response :p
@exodus See the void ray section, you just need to respond with vikings which due to range will force him to either run, or engage where your marines can fire.
As a general rule whenever I have extra minerals I either expand or build more barracks, cant go wrong with more barracks, it really helps in the end game when your doing so many things and your minerals are getting high cuz of so many mules and you can just cue up 30 marines in like 2 minutes on 6-7rax, can make all the difference.
On September 28 2010 22:39 statikg wrote: I have used this fairly effectively against zerg as well, but the speedlings on creep are able to respond and kill your drop much more easily then protoss, so the drop doesnt work as well. You might be better off to just use a fast pre-ignite build and just run in as most zerg fast expand/rarely use queen to block ramp. This way you can potentially have a zergling roast when they come for you and you arrive at about the same time. 1000+ zerg also generally see your drop coming with well placed overlords (this is the real issue). Its possible to make a viking first and try to kill the overlords and then do a slightly delayed drop, I will probably try that idea out.
Against zerg the standard 1/1/1 is probably stronger. Instead of making the 2nd starport, you can either research pre-igniter while making a viking + medvac, or you can go straight for banshee and harass on two fronts with banshee + pre-igniter / reactor hellion (your choice). This also puts you in a great position to transition into expand, MMM, or mech play
Most zergs I see make 3 queens on 2 base (blocking the ramp with 1) in order to deal with banshees and hellions, but only very disciplined zergs can properly deal with a blind pre-igniter drop or banshee + hellion harass that early in the game.
On topic, great job to iEchoic for coming up with and refining this build. This build would be even more deadly in a BoX situation when you mix it in with FE or 3rax pushes.
My hellion harass killed almost 8-10 probes, scouted a robotics bay, so didn't go for banshee cloack. I also had two bunkers.
Got streamrolled by a 3gate1robo push army composed of stalkers, 2 immortals who ate my bunkers, and somes zelotes to absorb the damage of the marines.
For a lategame this build seems strong but protoss can just mass units it makes me crazy
Any thoughts of advices ? I'll try to post the replay as soon as I go home
Wow iEchoic. I had no idea you were so famous here on TL. (I only check TL occasionally) Good to see you are continually getting better. Me and you should have a few games here soon. And I want to see some games between you and Miz. Those would be some good matches. Miz doesnt give me real games haha. He continually cheeses me with all-ins.
On September 30 2010 00:25 Goliath-sc wrote: Have been executing this build.
My hellion harass killed almost 8-10 probes, scouted a robotics bay, so didn't go for banshee cloack. I also had two bunkers.
Got streamrolled by a 3gate1robo push army composed of stalkers, 2 immortals who ate my bunkers, and somes zelotes to absorb the damage of the marines.
For a lategame this build seems strong but protoss can just mass units it makes me crazy
Any thoughts of advices ? I'll try to post the replay as soon as I go home
I have had this problem a bit. I think one of the key points that I didn't really notice to start with is that the bunker has to stay alive at all costs. The harass means he'll have fewer probes (especially if it went as well as your did) so the first big army is likely to be the only big army for a while. Hold it off, and your counter push should immediately win.
This all relies on him not getting through the bunker though. Throw like, all your SCVs at it, and it should hold I think.
really liking all the input on this... been doing hellion drops for a long time and i've seen all these problems occur to myself as well... the big counter attacks afterward and what not... one thing that happend to me one time that i'd like to share that shouldn't happen to most as long as you scout properly "about 1 - 2 minutes after the hellion drop" is that... if you do not get counter attacked right away after the hellion drop i'd reccommend throwing a scan on them to try and catch there army just to see what there doing... i did have one time where the other player cut gas completely had about 4 stalkers and 1 immortal out already and just went pure heavy zealots from there timing attacked me with a huge zealot force that ended up crushing me... i did not however have banshee's i was doing a different strat to using this strategy should be fine against this i just wanted to state what happened one time and could happen again to keep an eye out for this huge zealot heavy delayed counter attack...
I have had this problem a bit. I think one of the key points that I didn't really notice to start with is that the bunker has to stay alive at all costs. The harass means he'll have fewer probes (especially if it went as well as your did) so the first big army is likely to be the only big army for a while. Hold it off, and your counter push should immediately win.
This all relies on him not getting through the bunker though. Throw like, all your SCVs at it, and it should hold I think.
I don't think you can just bunker yourself into your base no matter how many scvs you have. 2 immortals are enough to dominate those structures, paired with stalkers and sentries bunkers will just get steam-rolled. GS your units are only taking 4 marine damage ... 3 damage once you breach the shields.
I only had 1 immortal. Look how fast it goes down.
1 gate - 1 robo - 1 gate will dominate this. As soon as the element of surprise is gone from the helion drop, its GG because you're just going to get out macrod from warpgates.
Once again a good harass will in the very great majority of cases make the protos go for an allin push with whatever he already produced. At the end of the drop if you don't have the nearest watch tower you can just send 6 (at least) or more SUV in auto repair behind your bunkers. If you've been pumping marines since the beginning you should be able to hold it off.
If it happen not to be enough we can try to improve the build by researching either "building armor" or "neosteel frame" from the engineering bay before sending the medivac. Would be interesting to see which one of those two upgrade is the best in this particular situation.
This is an ideal game of this bo used with perfect timings , good placement of buildings , and good macro micro . Before he quited I would have started 2 banshees and a CC . This covers up the basic Bo from a toss player vs this BO.
yeah i read that and its what i always do when it comes to rays. But Im talking about a guy that proxied 3 stargates somewhere outside his base and spammed cannons and stalkers so my first hellion drop was a failure. Because i couldnt drop without sacrificing 3 hellions to take out maybe 3 probes. Not a good exchange if you ask me. This guy had about 6 or so speed rays out by the time i had 2 banshees out and by the time i realised there were rays it was too late. He had really good micro and the damaged rays were just sent away to recharge shields while more came. Trust me those vikings I built didnt have a chance lol. With that and microing between taking out scvs and running from marines, it was over very quickly. I just think if i had stim i would have had a fighting chance. Other than that game and one i lost to a guy who im pretty sure used a map hack I havent really lost with this build.
i like this build some how, but since i try to do it it feels like every protoss i have to face likes to go phoenix .... That is so fucking weird
In Fact, even if a Protoss is prepared for the drop you can kill some probes with good micro, but with 2 phoenix allready in play you cant do much. They just lift your hellions up
But anyways, i like this build. The only reason i dislike it, is a late expansion.
Ive also taken a few risky chances that have been working well with this build. Just sending in a few marines from the front to attack a few seconds before harrassing which helps as a distraction. Then im free to take out drones quickly.
This does leave you at a huge disadvantage at your main but alot of the time you do so much economic damage that he cant recover. Especially if he only has zeals. He mostly goes for marines then i just run away. Then he goes for hellions which i just kite and then send the rines back in again.
Yes, thanks to this build my winrate against toss opponents has become extremely good, with the exception of when they opt for phoenixes which seem to shut it down reasonably well. I find myself contained for a good period of time trying to prevent them picking off workers mining or constructing buildings, and in the meantime the toss makes a beeline for storm tech.
Any ideas on what I should do against this? They are normally zealot heavy because of the gas requirements of stargate tech, so marines just get eaten up if I try a normal push at the usual timing.
Those having trouble with the protoss counter attack, you should be able to have 2 bunkers, plus extra marines, plus a couple extra hellions plus 1-2 banshees. It is imperative that you get those banshees IMMEDIATELY after the drop, as soon as your medvac pops you should be putting the tech lab on/building another starport and cueing them up asap. You CAN hold. Use banshees to target sentries first, then stalkers, if the fight gets inside your base then you can still win if you kill all the stalkers and another banshee comes out. If you killed enough probes with your hellions you can still be ahead at this point.
building 1 banshee then 1 raven then 2 more banshees, then pushing has given me some success, because PDD is so good aswell as with the raven your marines can destroy the observer that is likely in your base.
A terran player used this against me once, and if you don't know how to react, you will lose, instantly. The problem is that when you run your probes, they line up, giving the faster hellions much, much easier shot at just decimating your workers. Ever since that game, I am always intently looking out for this every game, because this is so simple yet it can very easily win you the game.
If your army is near by, just run it to your natural mineral patches. If they are not, spread them out and run them to the army, without clicking on the minerals. Either way, this can so easily win you the game.
Seems that the main issue a lot of people have is with protoss FE builds, I guess mainly because even with a successful hellion drop protoss can catch back up in probe count pretty easily.
I do a variation when I am facing a fast expand build to abuse the fact that toss needs to spread out. After the drop and my expand I don't go for the early bio+banshee push, instead I just macro up bio, get dual engineering bays and double upgrade and get a fast third. While I do this I use banshee's in the same way that CheckPrime uses mutalisks against terran. I just constantly pressure protoss either with one cluster of 4-6 banshee's or splitting them and attacking multiple spots. Never actually engaging anything where I could lose a banshee but constantly picking off pylons, probes, even tech. Keep all banshee's alive, send damaged ones home for repair and just keep rallying new banshee's to increase the size of your cluster.
Just like how terran needs thors to eventually break a muta contain protoss has to get phoenixes or stay contained forever. By the time your third is going down you should have a huge bio force and several ravens for a later push with atleast 3 PDD's and the constant banshee pressure will have forced protoss to skew army composition way way too far into stalkers and phoenixes.
I feel that this later push is way way safer against a fast expanding toss as you will have had enough time to slowly eat away at their expansion advantage.
i think you should try applying this build to TvZ, it feels like a good build to fight zerg with. im not an extremely good player, but im a decent one, 1100 plat, and ive won almost all my games using this against zerg. the banshees with cloak tend to come out right as/before the zerg have a spire. even if they have a spire out and are already pumping mutas, i usually get to destroy their spire and lair, which i would consider a big loss for the zerg. then i would either go, ravens, rines, and hellions or thors and rines(sometimes hellions if i am threatened by lings). the game usually ends up in a base trade that i win because my army is stronger. any thoughts?
On October 04 2010 07:55 Zecias wrote: i think you should try applying this build to TvZ, it feels like a good build to fight zerg with. im not an extremely good player, but im a decent one, 1100 plat, and ive won almost all my games using this against zerg. the banshees with cloak tend to come out right as/before the zerg have a spire. even if they have a spire out and are already pumping mutas, i usually get to destroy their spire and lair, which i would consider a big loss for the zerg. then i would either go, ravens, rines, and hellions or thors and rines(sometimes hellions if i am threatened by). the game usually ends up in a base trade that i win because my army is stronger. any thoughts?
I was watching some of Select's games against Zerg and he would open up with a normal reactor hellion harrass (definitely different from iEchoic's build though) but then he would get a medivac pretty fast and position it to evacuate the hellions when they got cornered. It was like a reverse hellion drop, pretty cool. Then he just kept flying or running around between the main and natural being annoying until mutas came out.
something cool that u can do, is if the zerg have a bunch of buildings behind their mineral line, u can choke with 2 rines that r being healed by medi while the hellions r perfectly safe.
Thanks iEchoic for this build. The depth thinking you have made in it shows what differs good players from very good players. I had a lot of difficulties against protoss as a terran, especially with their fast warping of units and strong macro. with this build, i've tooken out five 1300+ protoss players in a row.
I think the key is to push before psi storm comes, that's where it comes more difficult. else, it's an automatic gg.
Oh, and a repsonse for the question above, I don't have the replay anymore where I had to face a phoenix opening, but since stargate and phoenixes are gas heavy the key is to push with marines and cloacked banshees before he gets to get a robotic facility (try not to get your banshees destroyed on the route, avoid xelnagas if he controls them), two cloacked banshees can do so many damage. and unless he have a zelot only army he will have a lot of trouble killing your marines.
Great guide and thread, and I've used this as part of my TvP arsenal for quite a while. As it is fairly popular now, one counter I have had used against me is the Protoss goes gateway units and phoenix. The phoenix put a hurting on my banchees and raven. Have you seen this before? Would you suggest just going heavier on the rines? Would you cancell the banchees entirely and go all our rax? What do you think?
Hello! Brand new gold player here! First I want to say thanks to iEchoic for posting this awesome build. I'm new to StarCraft, and this is my first build that I practiced. I played it over and over against the comp AI, refining it so I could perform it smoothly. And for a while when I first started out, I would use it against all three races, simply because it was so effective at my level.
I have a replay I was hoping to get some help on. I actually posted this replay in another help thread, but I figured I could post it here too so the experts on this build can see it.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/94294-1v1-terran-protoss-scrap-station I basically was overwhelmed with stalkers. My Hellion drop seemed like it killed enough probes, but I couldn't deal with all his stalkers, and missed his warp prism drop in my line. Not sure how I could've done better. Any help would be greatly appreciated!
How would this build do if the P player started out by stealing both of your gas (then went with mass blinkers or did a quick warp prism zealot drop in your main (and continued to warp in new units)?
Marshal I must say that sounds rather odd. If he pops two assimilators before 13 that means he's delaying his gateway (or god forbid, his probecount) by a ton. I'd go a 2 rax FE instead if my gas was stolen early - this build really relies on getting the drop and banshees out asap.
I would really appreciate you expounding upon the dynamics of a seemingly passive opening, by which I mean, you pre-emptively bunker, which suggests teching or something tricky. Also, without having a force at his front or moving around the map, why wouldn't his army be in close proximity to his mineral line? I know that from the time a flying vehicle appears on the minimap to when I can get my marines from ramp to mineral line, there is only a 5 second lag or so and Stalkers are markedly quicker. How do you approach this as baller-Terran? If they are prepared with a stalker force around their base, do you have any tips on ways to eek out some damage or do you just retreat and tech faster?
Also, maybe I am just reading it incorrectly, but I can't see a clear 2nd Starport timing from your explanation. I would appreciate you explaining your mindset for building the 2nd Port.
Lastly, with a perfect split and on time Depot and Rax, when you build a 13 Refinery, at 16 food you can either a) make a 2nd marine and delay your factory to about 110 gas or b) skip it and just make an scv so your Factory comes down right at 100 gas. If you are making nonstop Marines, why wouldn't you 14 Refinery which lets you continue pumping Marines without getting any extra gas buildup, meaning increased mineral count early, which seems to be most critical until the 2nd Starport goes down. What are your thoughts on this?
Hey sleight, if you can drop your hellions at the side of the base somewhere undetected then you can run the hellions in which are much faster then the drop ship and do at least some damage unless he is completely prepared for you. Try not to let them scout your quick starport and they may not be as prepared. Even if they are prepared with units near the mineral line, usually you can run around the base to the other side of the mineral line and pick off a few at least, the drop is still cost effective as long as you get 3. Alternatively you can retreat and try again in a minute or two, often people don't expect that. I often do a second hellion drop a couple minutes later even if I do lose my first harass because I never lose my dropship.
GyaaChan, try to really get out your banshees fast and make a second bunker and be sure to hotkey some scvs for fast repair crew. It is definitely tough to handle a toss who is going for a fast stalker immortal push but I don't see that very often these days, almost always collosus or HTs.
Sorry for the late response, been busy dorking around on TL and playing sc2 dota.
First of all, I want to post a new variation to the strategy that is now viable since patch 1.1.2. It's a variation on the lategame composition that allows you to transition into a Thor/Marauder/Marine/Battlecruiser composition. Weird, right?
Well, it turns out that after you expo, if you throw down a fusion core an an armory, and another rax with a reactor (and a tech lab on your factory), you've unlocked two very high-throughput units (the thor and the battlecruiser x2) from your factory and 2x starport. The advantages to this are:
- Very high throughput of units from existing structures. With three new structures - the armory, fusion core, and one more barracks (the armory already gives you utility from upgrading units and unlocking infantry upgrades), you are able to liquidate up to 3 bases worth of income through your existing structures. This saves both worker build time and resources, as the alternative involves building 3-4 more raxes with addons and not using the factory. - The previous 'counter' to this composition, mass void rays, has been nerfed in 1.1.2 - HTs no longer counter thors - It's kick-ass. Seriously, how badass are thors are battlecruisers in the same mid-game composition? - The composition is very strong against any aoe-based protoss composition (templar, colossus), forcing your opponent out of his strongest lategame options.
If people try this and like it, I'll edit into the OP. Let me know.
Here's a replay:
This is the first game I tried it and I basically improved it on the spot when the idea hit me, so the timings are a bit late. I could get BCs faster and do 1 less rax.
On October 18 2010 10:07 Schmieds wrote: Nice guide, I've been using it to good effect. One question, though. Are mass stalkers a problem using this build?
On October 23 2010 13:13 micjmac wrote: How do you handle a blink into your main to bypass the bunkers?
There's two different kinds - blink stalkers and just mass stalkers. Blink stalkers are a bit tricky, and also a bit all-in if they rush it. There's basically two dynamics behind fast blink stalkers: a), you must hold it off or you die, and b) you win if you hold it off because they rushed blink at the expense of detection. If it comes later than a straight blink rush, it is usually late enough that your banshees can handle it.
Usually, blinking in occurs at around the time my first set of banshees comes out. Basically, as soon as I see stalkers blink in, I pull all my SCVs off the line, all my marines and banshees join the fight. I research cloak ASAP. Usually I can fight it off with relatively minimal losses (usually no more than 5-6 SCVs). I also usually hit a goldmine with my hellion drop seeing as they're near my base preparing to blink in.
If you can do an all-in defense and hold it off into cloak, you're usually okay.
Mass stalkers w/o blink just require you to have advance warning and being ready to repair before they start hitting your bunker.
On October 18 2010 21:11 NathanNever wrote: Hi, Gz for your guide. It's very nice. I'd like to see a replay in wich you use the ghosts vs templar army. Thank you.
Sure thing.
On October 23 2010 04:54 MarshalClaw wrote: Hi iEchoic...
How would this build do if the P player started out by stealing both of your gas (then went with mass blinkers or did a quick warp prism zealot drop in your main (and continued to warp in new units)?
Thanks. -MarshalClaw
You'd definitely have to change your build. Personally I would just 5rax marine all-in him and collect my win. You can also 1rax no-gas FE.
Okay, a lot of good questions here:
On October 23 2010 08:26 Sleight wrote: Dear iEchoic,
I would really appreciate you expounding upon the dynamics of a seemingly passive opening, by which I mean, you pre-emptively bunker, which suggests teching or something tricky. Also, without having a force at his front or moving around the map, why wouldn't his army be in close proximity to his mineral line?
Lately I have been doing what I can to deny scouting of my bunker. My first marine I'll send outside to kill probes before they can see it. After that, most people won't stalker poke because it's basically death if you open concussive. A good amount of the time, you won't get your bunker scouted at all.
But let's say he does do a stalker poke and sees it, and then assumes the worst and camps his army in his mineral line. When you drop and see this, you won't do much damage, and you should immediately run back and load into your medivac. But you can still exploit it.
He's handing you map control, and now your hellions can act like a zergling backstab. Seeing as his entire army is inside his mineral line, you're free to take all the xel'nagas on the map. As soon as he moves out, drop him.
There are still advantages you gain from your opponent sitting in his base and handing you map control.
I know that from the time a flying vehicle appears on the minimap to when I can get my marines from ramp to mineral line, there is only a 5 second lag or so and Stalkers are markedly quicker. How do you approach this as baller-Terran? If they are prepared with a stalker force around their base, do you have any tips on ways to eek out some damage or do you just retreat and tech faster?
Ideally, they shouldn't be able to scout your medivac. I always try to find an open spot on the ridges of their base and drop my hellions there and then run them in.
However, there's some protoss players who line the side of their base with pylons (especially when they play me and know what I'm going to do). This makes your drop harder, but it interestingly also screws them in another way. Lining pylons along the sides of your base is just asking for all of them to die to your initial banshees. You can roll to the outside, kill the pylons, and they can't really do anything about it. Once you get 4 banshees, if they try to attack you with stalkers, you can move to the edge of their range and focus down the stalkers. 2 volleys = a dead stalker. One volley = dead sentry. If your hellion drop goes bad you can always pull back and hide it for a backstab or another drop later.
Check out my replay against SungPa above and you can see that he does a good job of scouting for my drop and keeps most of his army near his minerals (he must know what I do) and I am able to exploit it with banshees on the ridges and another surprise drop.
Also, maybe I am just reading it incorrectly, but I can't see a clear 2nd Starport timing from your explanation. I would appreciate you explaining your mindset for building the 2nd Port.
My 2nd port always comes after I queue up my 3rd hellion and my medivac, while they are still building.
Lastly, with a perfect split and on time Depot and Rax, when you build a 13 Refinery, at 16 food you can either a) make a 2nd marine and delay your factory to about 110 gas or b) skip it and just make an scv so your Factory comes down right at 100 gas. If you are making nonstop Marines, why wouldn't you 14 Refinery which lets you continue pumping Marines without getting any extra gas buildup, meaning increased mineral count early, which seems to be most critical until the 2nd Starport goes down. What are your thoughts on this?
I always favor SCVs and then build structures and then units, in that priority when there's tension between SCVs and any other unit. I do think it's small enough that it won't change the outcome of 99% of games, but just in principle I always think it's good to have the mentality of "as long as I'm constantly producing, my opponent cannot outmacro me, and I can increase that advantage through harass". It's personal preference really.
On October 23 2010 17:01 ForDarkness wrote: hi echoic. im your fanboy. =) when u gonna give me another beat down yo
:D
On October 23 2010 01:31 enigmaticcam wrote: Hello! Brand new gold player here! First I want to say thanks to iEchoic for posting this awesome build. I'm new to StarCraft, and this is my first build that I practiced. I played it over and over against the comp AI, refining it so I could perform it smoothly. And for a while when I first started out, I would use it against all three races, simply because it was so effective at my level.
I have a replay I was hoping to get some help on. I actually posted this replay in another help thread, but I figured I could post it here too so the experts on this build can see it.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/94294-1v1-terran-protoss-scrap-station I basically was overwhelmed with stalkers. My Hellion drop seemed like it killed enough probes, but I couldn't deal with all his stalkers, and missed his warp prism drop in my line. Not sure how I could've done better. Any help would be greatly appreciated!
You executed the build really well, so nice job there. These games are a bummer because you really had the win at your fingertips and just a few mistakes caused you to lose it.
I think the biggest, game-losing mistake was getting overeager and attacking head-on once you fought off the first push. If you think about it, you had 4 banshees which composed almost your entire army, and then a few marines. It wasn't enough to beat him at that point in the game.
You could have directly flown over with your banshees, done some harassment, and had about the same force, all while scouting him and doing some nice damage. If you think about it, you let your few marines fool you into moving the long way around the map even though there weren't enough of them to do much.
You'd probably see the warp prism, and even if you didn't, all you'd have to do is fly a screen and a half back and hold off the warp-ins easily with 4 banshees + a handful of marines.
I also think you GGed too early. I actually think you could have still won that if you had produced banshees and marauders and pulled SCVs to kill the drops. You had way more workers than he did.
Either way, you basically had it, just little things to remember.
I just want to say thanks as well. You've given me a 20-2 TvP score since I started doing this build on ladder, and I'm now at 1900 diamond. Woo hoo :> If only I could do something like this in TvZ :< That MU is just killing me now - I feel like I can take on top protoss players but not deal with lowbie diamond Zergs just doing roach ling builds.. What a game
On October 25 2010 07:04 EmilA wrote: If only I could do something like this in TvZ
I think I may have discovered a promising TvZ build and I'm in the process of refining and testing it. If all goes well I may post a guide up in the near future. I feel the same way as you at the moment, trust me.
On October 25 2010 07:04 EmilA wrote: If only I could do something like this in TvZ
I think I may have discovered a promising TvZ build and I'm in the process of refining and testing it. If all goes well I may post a guide up in the near future. I feel the same way as you at the moment, trust me.
That would be awesome. Zergs are killing me non stop as well. I think I may have won 2 games against zergs since the last patch. May have to start using 6 rax all ins or something to get my rating back up.
On October 25 2010 07:04 EmilA wrote: If only I could do something like this in TvZ
I think I may have discovered a promising TvZ build and I'm in the process of refining and testing it. If all goes well I may post a guide up in the near future. I feel the same way as you at the moment, trust me.[/QUOTE]
This! +1 !
I would also like to see your view on alot of other aspects, of well, all the matchups..
Like, your thoughts on mid-late game, what scouts make you take which decitions about army composition..
On October 25 2010 07:04 EmilA wrote: If only I could do something like this in TvZ
I think I may have discovered a promising TvZ build and I'm in the process of refining and testing it. If all goes well I may post a guide up in the near future. I feel the same way as you at the moment, trust me.
I can't wait. That MU is a killer for me.
I have two more questions for you though (well sort of, lol):
1. I am 1300 plat, so most of the toss I play against do 4-gate pressure builds. The amount of stalkers and immortals sometimes feels overwhelming, esp. when my opponent has good micro at my front door. Occasionally, they are able to bust through my choke (if I don't scout the push), and then they do a runby and it's GG. For the other instances, where I am on top of my macro and spot the push, how should I transition my BO after they pull their forces back (they usually never suicide)? When I banshee harrass in this spot, I get counter pushed, and the marines and bunkers just don't hold up (remember they are sitting right outside of my main just taunting me lol). Should I just abandon banshee harassment and also abandon the 4 banshee + marine timing push? I never know what to do in this spot.
2. What is your most preferred BO/style of play for TvT?
Hi iEchoic and big thank for your wonderful build it did help me a lot in TvP but now I face some problem. I have a friend who practicing with me and he is around 1800 Protoss. He alwasy open with a Robo build and do a fast expand. He always send first observer to look around my base if he saw I go for 2 Starport , he will build a photon cannon at the choke of his narutal. I try many combination but none can break this wall of Stalker and Photon Cannon. If I try to expand I am going to lose in the end because his economy will be stronger. The 3 hellion drop often kill 4-6 probe but with the boost skill from Nexus his probe will come back again shortly.
Thanks iEchoic for taking the time to watch my reply! When I get home from work I'll watch it again with your ideas in mind. And that Thor/Marauder/Marine/Battlecruiser looks very interesting, I can't wait to see the replay on that.
Hi iEchoic, just want to say thanks for the great guide.
I just had one question. What do you do if your drop fails? i.e they have a substantial amount of stalkers patrolling their mineral lines/surrounding area? or for some reason they have 3 cannons in their mineral line? or you only manage to kill 1 probe??
I feel that if I do not have a successful drop, then my push/their push will crush me since I have committed a decent to hellion/dropship. So this is more a situational question.
What would be your next steps? of course this would depend on their unit composition but would you continue on with your "Adapting to Protoss Strategies" or what would you do different since you are in a slight disadvantage now?
I was doing this build with quite a bit success, but skipped the hellion drop and went for 2 starports and just pump banshees. If they would continue with stalkers, I would continue to pump and get the +1 weapon upgrade from Armory and just constantly attack his stalkers, always killing 1-2 depending where his obs was and then retreat and repair. Now with the added hellion drop winning this matchup has become much more stable.
the question to you is: I do a variation where I sneak out 3-4 scvs to a starting place or expansion place near by his base, build one turret and then just retreat&repair. also building a sensor tower so will know when he moves out. Can't believe how often the toss is so pissed at the sentry tower that he will walk there to kill it while I fly in his base and do ALOT of damage, often getting the GG right there. Sometimes I even get so bold to build my 3rd base there with a few bunkers and a rax.
Do you think this is a useful extension to "your" strat?
Also, do you agree that there are 2 things the toss does that will definitely loose him the game?
1. attack main through the choke 2. split his armies (keeping 2-3 stalkers +1 cannon in the mineral line)
I think I only loose when I scout his void rays too late, don't see his push coming so bunker dies too quickly or, my biggest problem, blink stalkers.
I know you've attached quite a few replays, can you point me to the one again where you battle blink stalkers?
@micjmac: In iEchoic's OP, he mentions how to handle 4 gate early pressure but to sum it up here, essentially if you see him 4 gating (which you should see with your hellion drop), immediately build a 2nd bunker and have scv's ready on auto repair for when he pushes (ctrl group maybe like 6-8 scv's). have one scout far out so when you see his army, you can pull your scv's off the mineral line and start repairing. then collect win!
On October 28 2010 12:20 Joey172 wrote: @micjmac: In iEchoic's OP, he mentions how to handle 4 gate early pressure but to sum it up here, essentially if you see him 4 gating (which you should see with your hellion drop), immediately build a 2nd bunker and have scv's ready on auto repair for when he pushes (ctrl group maybe like 6-8 scv's). have one scout far out so when you see his army, you can pull your scv's off the mineral line and start repairing. then collect win!
I did this, but he did not suicide his units, he just pulled back. When I pushed out at around the 12:00 minute mark, my marines and banshees got decimated. He simply just had too many stalkers and immortals. That's why there has to be more to it than putting up 2 bunkers. My hellion drop only killed about 3 probes, so we were on an even economic footing for the whole match. I'm wondering if I should have just expo'd and delayed my push. If that's the right move, I am not sure when it is a good time to make it. I don't want to play against toss late game.
On October 28 2010 12:20 Joey172 wrote: @micjmac: In iEchoic's OP, he mentions how to handle 4 gate early pressure but to sum it up here, essentially if you see him 4 gating (which you should see with your hellion drop), immediately build a 2nd bunker and have scv's ready on auto repair for when he pushes (ctrl group maybe like 6-8 scv's). have one scout far out so when you see his army, you can pull your scv's off the mineral line and start repairing. then collect win!
I did this, but he did not suicide his units, he just pulled back. When I pushed out at around the 12:00 minute mark, my marines and banshees got decimated. He simply just had too many stalkers and immortals. That's why there has to be more to it than putting up 2 bunkers. My hellion drop only killed about 3 probes, so we were on an even economic footing for the whole match. I'm wondering if I should have just expo'd and delayed my push. If that's the right move, I am not sure when it is a good time to make it. I don't want to play against toss late game.
Killing 3 probes for a loss of 3 hellions and possibly a medivac does not mean you're on an equal economic footing. That's a significant loss for the amount of resources you spent for the harass. Your tech, expanding, and unit production were all delayed to kill only 3 probes. This is probably why you lost. You got out-macroed.
Post a replay and maybe something about your drop can be fixed.
im a diamond player and i used your opening with some of my own variations all the way up to ~2k points. So thanks for everything!
i just watched the two replays you posted and was just wondering, in both games after your first expo you stay on the same 4 production buildings for pretty long.. almost until you drop your 3rd(in the first game) for most of that time your money is hovering around the 500-600 mark.
is there a general reason for this that im missing? cant afford w/o cutting scvs or something? (i normally dont watch replays, mostly VODS so i may not notice the players money before they drop the extra production facilities) but personally after i expo throw down 2-3 extra racks as soon as i get the money...
and with your new BC build thoughts on +1 ship weapons? if you can keep your first 4 banshees alive along with 2 bcs may be worth it. also bringing in like 4 scvs to repair should be good (i haven't gotten the chance to try the build yet)
Thank you to add the replay about ghosts vs high templar. But why you started to make ghost academy without seeing the high templar building?
Here a new question about your strategy: What to do vs a protoss army made of phenix and colossus? Colossus kills my marine from range if I try to kill phenix with them. And phenix kill my viking/banshee if I try to engage colossus.
On October 29 2010 17:13 NathanNever wrote: Hi iEchoic,
Thank you to add the replay about ghosts vs high templar. But why you started to make ghost academy without seeing the high templar building?
Here a new question about your strategy: What to do vs a protoss army made of phenix and colossus? Colossus kills my marine from range if I try to kill phenix with them. And phenix kill my viking/banshee if I try to engage colossus.
Tried the BC and thor transition and I have to say I like it alot.
In this game I honestly had the worst drop I've ever done (3 probes)
Lost 4 of my idle banshees to pheonixs while my marines stuck dildos up their asses
Protoss expanded years earlier then me
I thought I was going to lose so I just said screw it and put up a fusion core/armory and started making 2x marauder 2xmarine 1x thor and 1x BC I pulled 10 SCVs and roflstomped all over the tosses army.
Gonna see how consistently this works as my late game transition
On October 29 2010 17:13 NathanNever wrote: Hi iEchoic,
Thank you to add the replay about ghosts vs high templar. But why you started to make ghost academy without seeing the high templar building?
Here a new question about your strategy: What to do vs a protoss army made of phenix and colossus? Colossus kills my marine from range if I try to kill phenix with them. And phenix kill my viking/banshee if I try to engage colossus.
Thank you for any help.
Build mass vikings against pheonix and collossus
The problem is the the protoss is in advantage with pheonix. If I start to make vikings, he will have always more pheonix...
I've actually had great success with popping out a single raven and getting a BC.
If you can position the PD well, the BC will basically win the game for you. Since you can support 3-4 total of barracks units and BC production. Its pretty ridiculous.
If you spot a twilight council with your hellion drop, just open into cloaked banshees. This will force the protoss player to decide between very fast storm and detection. Cancel cloak before it is finished if you see a robo being constructed and spend the money on a fusion core.
Why would you ever get a fusion core? If they went twilight coucil wouldn't blink stalkers counter any sort of BC play? After the nerf BCs are pretty terrible to be honest.
On October 25 2010 06:44 iEchoic wrote: Sorry for the late response, been busy dorking around on TL and playing sc2 dota.
First of all, I want to post a new variation to the strategy that is now viable since patch 1.1.2. It's a variation on the lategame composition that allows you to transition into a Thor/Marauder/Marine/Battlecruiser composition. Weird, right?
Well, it turns out that after you expo, if you throw down a fusion core an an armory, and another rax with a reactor (and a tech lab on your factory), you've unlocked two very high-throughput units (the thor and the battlecruiser x2) from your factory and 2x starport. The advantages to this are:
- Very high throughput of units from existing structures. With three new structures - the armory, fusion core, and one more barracks (the armory already gives you utility from upgrading units and unlocking infantry upgrades), you are able to liquidate up to 3 bases worth of income through your existing structures. This saves both worker build time and resources, as the alternative involves building 3-4 more raxes with addons and not using the factory. - The previous 'counter' to this composition, mass void rays, has been nerfed in 1.1.2 - HTs no longer counter thors - It's kick-ass. Seriously, how badass are thors are battlecruisers in the same mid-game composition? - The composition is very strong against any aoe-based protoss composition (templar, colossus), forcing your opponent out of his strongest lategame options.
If people try this and like it, I'll edit into the OP. Let me know.
Here's a replay:
I feel that Toss has way too much to counter Thors. Stalkers do bonus damage to thors and often times, I find that toss players tend to go robo and spit out immortals/colossus which just own thors. I've been just massing MMM/Banshee/Raven after my hellion harass, which hasn't really failed me yet (unless I fail-scout).
This strat is borderline imba and I love it. I botched a drop so badly (0 kills) and he put together some 4-5 phoenix and I still won. Granted he walked up my ramp and formed a nice line to face my concave on his counter attack but still :D First time in my life I am not scared of Collossus.
I tried this opener against Zerg and it worked extremely well. Instead of waiting to make a drop I just went straight out with my 4 marines and 1 hellion to harass and killed many drones. Retreated and expo-ed. After that, I transitioned to Thors w/ blue flame hellions and marine ball. Comfortable victory.
The only time I lose with this build is when protoss gets like a million stalkers. But when it happens there is nothing I can do to counter it it seems. I feel like I can't effectively mass marauders because otherwise I just wasted money on getting fast starport tech.
On November 05 2010 00:07 Antisocialmunky wrote: The only time I lose with this build is when protoss gets like a million stalkers. But when it happens there is nothing I can do to counter it it seems. I feel like I can't effectively mass marauders because otherwise I just wasted money on getting fast starport tech.
Your hellion drop failed and put you behind in macro. It's happened to me before too. That's the main weakness to this build. If your drop fails, and you can't make up for it with banshee harassment, the game is as good as done, unless your opponent allows you back into the game somehow.
This build helped catapult me to the top of platinum, but now it's just not working for me anymore unless my opponent is terrible or tries some kind of cheese and fails. Pretty much every toss I go up against does some kind of 4 gate pressure build, and it is very difficult to deal with if they know what they are doing and don't suicide their units. What they do is park right outside of your base and contain you, so that when you try to execute your drop or banshee harrass, they push your front door, and it's very difficult to handle unless you have high APM.
It's nearly impossible to deal with on maps like blistering sands. The early pressure hits around the time you send your drop ship in. You don't have a lot of marines, and you have to split them between both entrances. Once the rocks are destroyed, they can just run by your bunker there anyway unless you try to wall it in.
Against Zerg, how do you like the fast medivac into dropping one helion and 6 marines at the main and/or expansion? And then transitioning to banshee, thor, and marine? Is it something you would consider using against a Zerg FE? Also, PLEASE post your Zerg strategy!
iEchoic, i've had a lot of success with your build. Buuut, i think there's a whole in it,
a semi progamer (2495pt protoss the guy) told me that there is a timing for blink, that can come a little bit before banshees, so he gets blink and kills me right away.
He would have won anyway because we're so far away in level (i'm only 1700+ T)
Here's the replay, played in a tournament.
I was a little bit stressed so i didn't execute perfectly the build and didn't have very higher apm as in ladder so sorry for the bad quality playing. and when i saw the blinking stalkers it stunned me totally so i reacted very bad also. not that it would change the game...
So goliath I watched your replay and I'm not as highly rated as you but... your execution in that game was really detrimental to your success. By comparison, in my most recent game executing that build at the 6 minute mark my drop units were completed (3 hellions 1 medivac) and the tech labs were then started (1 on factory) and 2nd star port was about to be started (probably a bit late). You on the other hand hadn't finished your first starport. Also you had a lot of wasted production time at your rax.
at the 7:30 mark (the time of the attack) i had 2 banshees (well 1 with 1 about to pop) and 4 more marines than you. With pulling some SCVs (helpful in worst case as it buys time for next 2 banshees) and the fact my drop would've hit him BEFORE he attacked plus some micro i believe this could've held it off. In any case my example was a random game, not the best execution i've done (and certainly not the best that could be done).
Oh also you let him build a pylon so he could warp in zealots into your base, so that didn't help.
Oh, I also think you built your 2nd gas too early, echo suggests right after star port started.
Hello all I just registered to post here and say TY & GG to the whole good players that are sharing experience with each other. =). I was following this thread for some weeks and I just wanted to say THANK YOU iEchoic for sharing ur build and refining it and also for the great updates. It brought me to silver (lol...) and while i'm still a noob I just crushed a Plat Protoss by using it, what I never expected possible yet ! Here is the replay, so u can see how weak I am (not following the build properly, loosing my raven, lack of macro and micro etc etc) but I won so this build is WEAK NOOB PROOF !!!
pps : iEchoic what's about the "promising TvZ build" u were working on ? (sorry I don't find anymore 6 marines 1 hellion drop into thors thread with gaz before rax, but what are u thinking about?) edit : it's Pookie/legendofbert build there http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=164267 And by the way would u please tell and show me how u're doing with TvT nowadays ?
This build is freakin great, I was on a bit of a losing streak (Platinum) and decided to give this a go again after using it in Bronze I think, and it's actually great against Zerg. The drop lets you get some drones, and usually makes your opponent crap themselves and start building loads of lings. Then you hit with the banshees and he might end up fighting them off with 3 Queens, but then you just back off and he starts building loads of spore colonies (sunk minerals) and usually hydras/mutas. The whole time I would be building marines and double hellions (from my factory with a reactor), so you just send them in when the hydras are too many for your banshees and you just crush the guy.
My macro is really bad, and I usually don't even bother with cloak and this still owns since the banshees just destroy his economy.
I having a problem when toss go for 3 gate blink, he hit before my banshee come out and clock is no where been done. I try to fen it off my marine scv, but blink micro just made me lose too much.
Just wanted to say thanks again for this awesome build. It was my very first build when I first got SC2 - no previous SC experience - and now I'm sitting at 1900 diamond and it's still effective. Good job iEchoic
Ive had tons of success with this build as well, but templars tend to ruin my day ><, the only thing you can go against them is Thors. Even with ghosts, unless you push while numbers are low, bio/banshee gets smashed. Ive even had BC transitions (emp'd so they have no energy) get hammered by just mass storms and stalkers. Havent quite figured out how to beat templars in late game.
But I would say this build works fairly often. Its turned my Toss win ratio from about 20% to around 60%
Ive also been actually incorporating a raven and one less banshee during the push, i find it makes my losses in the push much smaller. (PDD)
Im still in platinum cause I lost a lot of time with other games, but this baby is viable against 2k diamond protoss(best win ration is TVP for me ofc). I have watched Trump use a lot of vikings and banshees mid to late game vs protoss because u can scan their army, kill observer with the vikings and rape with invsible banshee. If u rush to their base and kill their obs production its game over.
The reason I wrote this is because a lot of times when ur first push wont give you the victory vs good players, or ur hellion drop fails, you can transition very well to mass vikings+banshees(just trade a barracks with reactor to 1 port), thanx to double starport. Won a couple of games like that very effectively.
what about 2 gate> stargate? protoss been using this much lately, I dont mean void ray harrass, but timed push with 2-3 void rays and a bunch of stalkers.void rays can feed off the bunkers/wall etc. and its really hard to micro every single marine cause they are really valuable at that time. Only plus of this timed attack that comes like seconds after dropping with ur medivac, is that probes are defenseless, so its all about defending that push for the gg.
The only realistic answer I can find is to use third 50 energy of command center and scan(always be ready for repairs against DTs as you will eventually ran into the occasional cheese) and pray you catch a glimpse of the stargate, so as to prepare at least 2 vikings for a start. I guess you could send a scouting scv around the map for a possible proxy, which is really hard to find anyway.
Seriously, do we have any replays with a viable answer to 2gate>stargate void ray timed push with stalkers? With good micro from protoss side, not the kind of sending void rays inside mass marines instead of charging in wall.
On January 04 2011 12:58 policymaker wrote: Seriously, do we have any replays with a viable answer to 2gate>stargate void ray timed push with stalkers? With good micro from protoss side, not the kind of sending void rays inside mass marines instead of charging in wall.
I practiced against this a bit and the best response I've found is to continue your hellion drop, do a load of damage (his base should be entirely undefended, unless he leaves stuff at home, which weakens it significantly), and build 3-4 bunkers behind the wall (well beyond the wall, 4-5 tiles away concaving around the top of the ramp so stalkers have to run up). Pull SCVs to auto-repair these if he tries to engage. You get banshees/voids out and can hold position above the bunkers, providing more defense and allowing them to be auto-repaired as well.
Games were against practice partners so I didn't save.
but the real problem is guessing he has a stargate. if i know that, ill just proceed with quick vikings, kill his probes, defend and take the game 3 minutes later. Dont you agree about the quick scan to gain information and prepare?
I'm not a fan of scanning for tech path info, as I feel it's entirely negated by simply hiding your tech. Some people say you can tell by lack of buildings in their base, but if you scan their base and only see 2 gateways, they could be going voids or dts. Or expanding. Or hiding blink tech. If you make 2x vikings against DTs or an expansion you're not looking too good.
That said, some players disagree, but I don't think a scan should ever be incorporated into a build just to see tech (except against Zerg, where their hatch/lair/hive can not be hidden).
On January 05 2011 06:19 iEchoic wrote: I'm not a fan of scanning for tech path info, as I feel it's entirely negated by simply hiding your tech. Some people say you can tell by lack of buildings in their base, but if you scan their base and only see 2 gateways, they could be going voids or dts. Or expanding. Or hiding blink tech. If you make 2x vikings against DTs or an expansion you're not looking too good.
That said, some players disagree, but I don't think a scan should ever be incorporated into a build just to see tech (except against Zerg, where their hatch/lair/hive can not be hidden).
I think this is quite true. Actually if the hellion drop works you can get a pretty good scout into their base to see what is happening, but often its quite late unless they are going DTs - that shrine sure takes ages to make. Also it allows to get a viking out vs voids. The only thing that has been troubling is a good 4 gate with FFs behind bunkers tostop repair.
I found your answer very sincere, actually, to my eyes its like accepting the fact that its quite difficult to counter 2 gate stargate. We tried it with a m8 of mine yesterday, we just both got into diamond and we r sitting below 2k, but we can execute the respective builds almost flawlessly(or at least really good, ur build got me to diamond after all).
I feel the same about the scan, but you can only do so much. The truth is though that the wall favors void rays a lot, and im not sure whether a blind viking would help that much(in our practice match, he had a bunch of stalkers, 2-3 void rays and I had hellions killing all his probes, but 4 marines in a bunker, 4-5 out of it, and a couple of banshees. Since I completely capacitated his echo, I commited all my scvs to the bunkers repair and defending, but void rays made the difference. My micro sucks big time, but there no way the marines would ever kill the void rays thanx to his ranged stalkers, micro etc. I will provide replay asap, just for the record.
You suggested more bunkers but I feel that would be more food for charging... if you think it is effective plz do post a replay.
My minerals were low all the time, except for when I threw the expansion. If I have to add something to your bo, I guess that would be ignoring the expansion and investing asap in more barracks for marine support, or, dare I say, a third starport for pure vikings and banshees>vikings transition?Maybe even throwing fast eng bay ? How would you feel about those suggestions?
I love this build against Protoss. That said, I've never won a game using this build when my opponent went fast VRs. I think the limiting factor here is the lack of stim pack by the time the VRs hit, almost always at the same time you're executing the drop.
i've survived some 3 gate vr pressure recently by getting 2 vikings first (well usually 1 raven then 2 vikings) and researching cloak after/during their push. you should be using your scouting scv to see when he gets 2nd gas, if early (18-21 food) then its gunna be templar play or VRs. DTs are a joke against this build so only blink/VRs are tricky. raven helps a lot vs blink stalkers and bunkers/rine/ATs take care of VR push long enough for vikings.
Ive had lots of success with this build, but lately the 2 gate voids has been crushing me. The few times that I have managed to beat them, is when there attack hits as my hellion drop does and they have nothing in their base so they can reinforce after I crush all their probes. You also need REALLY good bunker positioning, or they will walk over you. After the drop ship I immediatly push out 2 vikings and then a raven. That tends to cover most of your protoss builds. But usually the vikings will come out after the voids have started charging so it takes really goo micro to beat them.
phoenix have faster build times, think this will affect the strategy as much? vikings first are the obvious choice in any stargate build, but will we just have to get more?
Actually I have been tweaking the bo just to counter stargates at my level. Phoenixs werent used that much and and the couple of times they used them some vikings did the job, void rays timed push is a pain though. Since scouting the gate is really unlikely, in the start after a couple of marines I throw a fast reactor, at times even sacrificing ideal building placement for the wall. That way I have twice as many marines as before and am able to counter every protoss opening successfully, I have countered some really decent protoss plays that way(proxy gates/timed pushes etc)
On January 13 2011 23:03 policymaker wrote: Actually I have been tweaking the bo just to counter stargates at my level. Phoenixs werent used that much and and the couple of times they used them some vikings did the job, void rays timed push is a pain though. Since scouting the gate is really unlikely, in the start after a couple of marines I throw a fast reactor, at times even sacrificing ideal building placement for the wall. That way I have twice as many marines as before and am able to counter every protoss opening successfully, I have countered some really decent protoss plays that way(proxy gates/timed pushes etc)
I dont think i actually kept any, because the execution is poor. The minerals distribution gets messed up(I actually built a second gas earlier to keep em low), and I still have to figure out a couple of buildings positioning in some maps, yesterday I lost because a DT just sneaked into my base from the smallest of openings available(game was lost because of my late push actually but whatever). But the actual bo isnt anything special at the time, just 2 marines>bunker>reactor, and proceed with standard iechoic build, just double producing marines all the way, you dont even have to produce vikings as a precaution.
On January 15 2011 00:40 policymaker wrote: I dont think i actually kept any, because the execution is poor. The minerals distribution gets messed up(I actually built a second gas earlier to keep em low), and I still have to figure out a couple of buildings positioning in some maps, yesterday I lost because a DT just sneaked into my base from the smallest of openings available(game was lost because of my late push actually but whatever). But the actual bo isnt anything special at the time, just 2 marines>bunker>reactor, and proceed with standard iechoic build, just double producing marines all the way, you dont even have to produce vikings as a precaution.
I've experimented a lil bit with it, and just making a reactor after your factory and you're good to go
@policy: 50 gas is expensive and really delays both the drop and the banshee/raven. not to mention it opens an attacking timing for the opponent before the reactor catches up to normal production. also vikings are still very nice to have as unstimmed marines can just be owned in a micro situation vs voids
also if a reactor is somehow saving you vs proxy gates then they're doing it terribly wrong.
Not to mention that this rax is supposed to get a techlab and stim in time (about) for your attack. But you didn't say what you mean by "at my level", thus we can't really know what to expect from said level.
As for me (1700 almost exclusively paired against 2200-2300 opponents), I've noticed a trend since 2-3 weeks to fast expand a lot more from my opponents, usually including a rather fast robo as well, so that I can't punish them using cloak (except if I get vikings and scan, of course, but I'd rather have 6 banshees for an attack than 4 to harass), and the drop's damage is mitigated by the 2 nexi. Though it's actually very beneficial for the latest expand timings, where the 400 minerals have been paid (so less units) but the probe count about the same. I'm no longer at 95 win% and it sometimes goes to lategame, also. Not to train my transitions better.
alaric my lvl is ur lvl, had mentioned some pages ago i think thats why didnt state it again sry.
@habbey i usually wouldnt push before 6 banshees, and I found that the timings are like 30 seconds apart? I can live with that if it means holding off void ray timing push... I just felt that blind vikings production(to counter EVERY opening) is just too much to counter supposed timing push(whic is just before cikings pop out).
I ran the goal of this build through a build order optimizer and it came up with a slightly different build. + Show Spoiler +
10 Supply Depot 12 Refinery 13 Barracks (Naked) 14 Move SCV To Gas 14 Move SCV To Gas 14 Move SCV To Gas 16 Orbital Command 16 Factory (Naked) 17 Supply Depot 17 Marine 18 Calldown MULE 19 Starport (Naked) 19 Marine 20 Hellion 23 Supply Depot 24 Hellion 27 Marine 28 Move SCV To Minerals 28 Medivac 31 Bunker 31 Calldown Extra Supplies 31 Move SCV To Gas 31 Hellion 33 Refinery 33 Marine
The key difference is refinery before rax. This build gets the three hellions and medivac out 30 seconds eariler (roughly 5:30) which could dramatically increase the amount of potential damage.
Possibly one could use this variation in tvz or tvt instead of tvp as the threat of the early chronoboosted zealot always makes refinery first a big gamble. Potentially this would be a strong variation for tvp on 4 person maps as well, banking on a slower scout time from protoss and the unlikelihood of hardcore cheese on 4 player maps.
Also as far as potential followups, the build leaves you with roughly 400 minerals and 100 gas. Expanding, adding rax, adding gas, adding an extra starport for iEchoic's followup would all still be possible potential transitions.
WOW! I must say this build dominates. PvT went from my worst matchup to my best. I have been demolishing top 2500+ diamonds with this. Even if my helion drop completely fails, I still win simply because there are so many counters toss has to go for. This build is competent at all levels, even masters league.
Voids may give you some trouble, but its still quite feasible. I just played a game against a Diamond who was first in his division and he had 2 voids out before my drop was across the map. My helions never even got a chance to unload. I quickly made 2 vikings and threw some racks. I lost part of my wall in but my bunker still held. Viking rage forces the voids to have to engage with my bunker which is suicide. So my opponent retreated and this attack was quite successful. He had a good food advantage. However, I now returned to getting cloaked banshees. He had about 50 probes to my 35 scvs (bad macro I know) but my banshees came in and lowered his worker count to about 20-30. From then on, I simply outmacroed him. He went for storm, but my food count was just way too high. He left without even engaging. I LOVE THIS BUILD =D
Glad people are still enjoying the build, I know I haven't posted in a while. The build is still working great for me. I'm beating really highly ranked protosses even when they know it's coming, so I think it's proved its longevity. On maps like LT and steppes where the natural expo is highly abusable by banshees (due to cliffs on LT and no walking space behind minerals on Steppes), it is still incredibly strong.
@policymaker: the reason I don't do the reactored marines is for two reasons:
1) It creates a timing where you have less marines than you normally would (after you start your reactor's construction) where you can be abused by fast stalker/zealot.
2) I spend 100% of my money on the path to the 2x banshees, so fitting in anything else that isn't a unit (like a reactor) would take away from my unit count.
@alphafuzard: You can get the hellions faster if you go ref before rax, but it makes you really vulnerable to a quick 1stalker1zealot push. You'll have 1-2 marines and will usually take huge damage.
On January 17 2011 11:12 iEchoic wrote: Glad people are still enjoying the build, I know I haven't posted in a while. The build is still working great for me. I'm beating really highly ranked protosses even when they know it's coming, so I think it's proved its longevity. On maps like LT and steppes where the natural expo is highly abusable by banshees (due to cliffs on LT and no walking space behind minerals on Steppes), it is still incredibly strong.
@policymaker: the reason I don't do the reactored marines is for two reasons:
1) It creates a timing where you have less marines than you normally would (after you start your reactor's construction) where you can be abused by fast stalker/zealot.
2) I spend 100% of my money on the path to the 2x banshees, so fitting in anything else that isn't a unit (like a reactor) would take away from my unit count.
@alphafuzard: You can get the hellions faster if you go ref before rax, but it makes you really vulnerable to a quick 1stalker1zealot push. You'll have 1-2 marines and will usually take huge damage.
yea i know which is why i suggested it as a potential build for tvz or tvt i actually used this successfully in a recent tournament finals
On January 17 2011 11:12 iEchoic wrote: Glad people are still enjoying the build, I know I haven't posted in a while. The build is still working great for me. I'm beating really highly ranked protosses even when they know it's coming, so I think it's proved its longevity. On maps like LT and steppes where the natural expo is highly abusable by banshees (due to cliffs on LT and no walking space behind minerals on Steppes), it is still incredibly strong.
@policymaker: the reason I don't do the reactored marines is for two reasons:
1) It creates a timing where you have less marines than you normally would (after you start your reactor's construction) where you can be abused by fast stalker/zealot.
2) I spend 100% of my money on the path to the 2x banshees, so fitting in anything else that isn't a unit (like a reactor) would take away from my unit count.
@alphafuzard: You can get the hellions faster if you go ref before rax, but it makes you really vulnerable to a quick 1stalker1zealot push. You'll have 1-2 marines and will usually take huge damage.
glad you replied ! well, that leaves the question though, what do you do with a perfectly timed void ray push? a proxy gate can really hurt you.You just hold ur bunker off with repair till vikings get out? Produce a couple of vikings either way ? Does it all come to microing? What is your response at this certain situation? Perfect vray push happens at the same time ur drop is on the way. Suppose you didnt have the chance to scout(what good player will let you go up their ramp in 5+min anyway)
On January 18 2011 09:41 Defiled wrote: Do you think that implementing blue flame into this build would be good or bad?
I wouldn't say good or bad, but it would make it more allin. The build right now is set up so that you can transition out into a FE and play a macro game, whereas if you went blueflame, you'd be spending a lot more on one base, creating less infrastructure, and you would need to do a lot more damage for it to be worthwhile. If you want to see how the build works with blue flame, just check out MVP vs Tester from the GSL last night on Xel Naga Caverns. The build is really good, but it is 100% allin.
On January 18 2011 05:47 policymaker wrote: glad you replied ! well, that leaves the question though, what do you do with a perfectly timed void ray push? a proxy gate can really hurt you.You just hold ur bunker off with repair till vikings get out? Produce a couple of vikings either way ? Does it all come to microing? What is your response at this certain situation? Perfect vray push happens at the same time ur drop is on the way. Suppose you didnt have the chance to scout(what good player will let you go up their ramp in 5+min anyway)
Well, they can't both attack and defend at the same time. You should be able to do huge damage with your hellions. However, at this point, they're allin, and you win if you hold off the attack.
The best way to defend vs voidrays is to pull 6-7 workers to repair your wall to buy time. Start 3 bunkers well behind your walloff, making a concave around the front of your ramp. Do not let your marines die. If he kills the bunker, just run your marines back and allow your falling wall to buy you time until your bunkers complete. You should have quite a few bunkers, and with SCV repair, you can hold off, in my experience.
I don't have any replays right now because it's been a long time since it's happened to me, but I'll post if I run into it again.
Err, I'm not sure if you mentioned this in your above topic but, when you push out with the 2-4 banshees that's with no stim, combat shields, or cloaking right?
thanx iEchoic that was really helpful, so from what I can tell your advice is pull marines back, repair bunker to delay push and at the same time construct 2 bunkers behind(like a triangle shape I guess) while spamming more marines? Canceling a banshee for at least 1-2 vikings would be OK or not?thanx
i think in most maps you can block with a rax+bunker anyway. Thing is, with proper void ray micro, they can find a suitable angle to charge up. I think that to play ultimately safe, a wall with 2 bunkers and a depot would be ok, cause if u leave any spot open a couple of dts might slip inside and tear u apart if ur unlucky with ur scans.
Dear iEchoic, So I have been loving your build but I have ran into some difficulties. Normally I push after I have stimpacks researched for my marauders (which is considerably after 4 banshees). However, I recently lost to a high templar player. So I took your advice and pushed at 4 banshees. But I got pwned by a 4gate robo in one game. Now, the clear reason why I lost was because I simply did not have enough marauders. Do you think it would be safe to push at 6 banshees instead? I just feel that if the enemy chose to all in right after the helion rush (which I killed about half his workers with) I am too vulnerable. Btw, I did have very poor micro in that game.. (some of my banshees went ahead of my army and got sniped). Perhaps that was the cause for that one loss. Other than that one game, I feel that this build has great potential!
I usually push @ 6 banshees, current protoss play doesnt include psi storm at that point anyway, its just like 40 seconds later than iechoics push. Keep banshees in separated hotkey and marines in another. Keep banshees aside from marines, the better answer is usually to leave stalkers auto attack, if he hotkeys all of them to ur banshees you can make them run and leave ur marines do the real dmg. But if he has some zealots, its much better to leave ur banshees aside and micro ur marine. Be sure u rally point ur rax/starports on ur banshees or enemy ground.
Btw, iEchoic did u change the order of second refinery after OC? Cause wiki says so...
Today my opponent saw my wall in and responded with blink stalker + observer for high ground vision.
I already did a ton of economic damage, but with blink and observers my marines + banshees got obliterated.
I was clueless... What is the correct response if I scout a twilight council + Robo? Cloaked Banshees won't work, and Blink stalkers can really abuse cliffs against someone with only marines without stim and measily 5-6 banshees.
Since he is defenseless, kill his probes, and pull all scvs from ur line to support marines and banshees, that should easily do it, ofc discussing it is much easier than trying it, but you should definately try that des
On February 03 2011 05:40 Chrumo wrote: When I was playing this build, during the helion drop I managed to kill 5 probes, but I lost 3 helions (drop survived). Did I take any advantage ?
Yes, you did take an advantage - assuming you're not in immediate danger of being run over (due to just having lost 300 min in army).
I need some help with this build. Against a toss who goes void ray, I failed to defend. I followed what was recommended, and I anticipated it. My vikings easily took out the VR, however he only made 1, and the rest were pure stalkers, which marines couldn't take on(and the 2 vikings were useless against). all the stalkers took down the repairing bunker. I had 7 marines when he pushed, while my hellion drop was occuring at his base(lost all his probes, but he had the bigger army in the end). I immediately started cloak when i saw his push but it was too late. Advice on heavy stalker+1 vr?
On February 10 2011 11:41 Vorlik wrote: I need some help with this build. Against a toss who goes void ray, I failed to defend. I followed what was recommended, and I anticipated it. My vikings easily took out the VR, however he only made 1, and the rest were pure stalkers, which marines couldn't take on(and the 2 vikings were useless against). all the stalkers took down the repairing bunker. I had 7 marines when he pushed, while my hellion drop was occuring at his base(lost all his probes, but he had the bigger army in the end). I immediately started cloak when i saw his push but it was too late. Advice on heavy stalker+1 vr?
Can u upload the rep?
Theres shouldnt be any reason he took ur bunker,u must build the bunker in a way it can be reapirable from atleast 1/2 of his size, and i reccomand add a special hotkey for 6 SCVs to be rushed for repairing.
Also, when i scout 1 base play, i tend to add 1 more bunker, will be graet for the +1 range also vs Vrs.
I dont understand why blocking in this BO witha rax..
policymaker, in this replay u showed. u could hold this attack with a 2 supply bunker.. commiting all ur SCVs to autoreapir + i saw u kept getting banshees while he had like 3 VRs, maybe that was abit of panic respond.. but with vkings u might have stoped that...
According to iechoic its vital to block, by blocking you can deny later scouting(with poking zealot/stalker for example) and tempt him to follow the tech/eco path, seeing that you want to stay defensive. It is also good to deny any fast dark templar and hold off any general pressure.
As for my replay, I am far from good, any better player would be able to deny that attack. But vray timing attack is a real pain for this build anyway. It does pay off to practice it though, cause 99% of the time they use a vray timing attack they have undefended probes for your hellions.
I'm using this with my friend who plays toss, he generally goes 4 gate or 3 gate robo.
We've been on a tear when I do the 3 helion drop, transition to either banshees, or marine/tanks depending on what I see with the drop.
However, recently... it seems we've hit a bump as we climb higher and higher in standings and leagues. One thing that we seem to be having a lot of problems with are teams that do early aggression. When we scout, we'll see no gas and expect it -- but other times, we see 1 gas and go on with our build, except when I go to drop we usually get hit with mass marines/stalkers/etc.
Another counter that's hard to deal with I find are guys who go blink stalkers. By the time I drop my hellions, they are moving in to attack us. At most I have 3 tanks out with siege, but they just blink right on top of my tanks and we lose.
Any advice? One thing we thought of doing was, before I send my medivac+3helions for the drop (which is usually always exactly on time since the build is so efficient), I drop a couple of bunkers down at base and get our defenses set up... since dropping helions in 2v2 ASAP isn't AS important as it is in 1v1.
I meant that blocking with rax isnt necessary, u can block ur ramp effiecny with 2 supply and bunker.
I have stoped using bio long time ago on my TvP and i m having great streak of winnings with this build, as few pepole already mentioned, the only problem i m really facing is the 3 gate blink, which comes about the 7 min. Yes, i do kill almost all of his mineral line with the drop, but i just cant hold his push as he pass my bunker easily. Only stoped it once with alot of luck getting 2ed bunker and with a crazy micro in and out of the bunkers.
YakiSOBA IMO this build isnt fit for 2v2, cuz u cant early aggresion with 1 bunker and 1 rax pumping marines, an you also wont have any serious force to help your ally if he gets attacked.
I am a gold rank player. I am using this strategy against most P. It's like all of P go 4gate rush on gold?! The hellion drop is like OP! the most of them don't expect it,, 9/10 probes are easy kill. Then the banshee harassment starts!
tip 1: for low rank players: when you drop the hellions target the probes that are mining most of the times there are 2 so 2kill every attack . play a custom game and practice this. With this drop you can make the difference.. Also follow the damm probes mostly they stack up XD
tip 2: do a drop before he gets a observer in your base and calculate the fly path of the observer so you don't fly into it
On February 19 2011 17:21 Tsuycc wrote: this build just seems like a hit or miss... if he scouts this with obs, you're done
You're not. A 1 gate robo build (or probably even 2 gate robo) can have an obs in your base right after your medivac departs (sometimes see it go if you're on LT/metalopolis close air positions), but that won't prevent you from dropping or dealing damage. Also, you don't need cloak (I never get it since they fast robo anyway now) for your attack.
It's less powerful because most P fast expand nowadays, so you don't do as much economic damage and you can't abuse the timing of their expo because you hit late, but it's still efficient.
Dlabs : definitly agree, this build really punishes the 4 gate you will see every game. Make sure you dont make a mistake early, get youyr medivac out before they get to your front door, drop in their base as they attack your bunkers, repair, micro a little bit, gg. once you have 4 banshees out + marine ball its over. just make sure u repair your bunkers (and not press T instead of R ;P)
Very nice strategy, works wonders if executed properly and forcefields are less effective against your army composition,which is the main reason MMM usually falls.
To follow up,if the opponent goes for High templars and you have a lot of banshees,I would suggest getting the cloak just so you can deplete their energy,so in a real fight they don't get feedbacked to death. I guess a storm will do as much damage but that's another story.
used to enjoy this but not used it in a while. surely it doesn't still work though does it? just thought that with new patch, faster observer seeing everything and the obvious stargaet chron'd phoenixes response it is hard countered?
OMW I am almost a Platinum player and I can do this build, and also the TvT version. It works really well and I am enjoying the success, when I lose its me. I sometimes focus to much on a certain unit since my macro slips and then the synergy is off, but other than that I love it. I feel so mobile with this build. a major problem for me was the fact that I switched from Zerg to Terran mostly as a result of boredom. But I felt that most of the 'stock' Terran builds were too stiff and not very mobile (IMO of course). This is the first build that I really enjoy. I don't feel like:"Hmm maybe I should roll Zerg again" any more.
iEchoic you only need to make a build like this for TvZ then I can almost imagine the first Blizzard patch in history to be named after a player: The Eichoic Fix Patch Not that I believe it is unbalanced I just feel sorry for the player on the receiving when this build is executed well (especially on my level) since a large portion of the main army doubles as excellent harassment units.
On March 13 2011 02:16 rmAmnesiac wrote: used to enjoy this but not used it in a while. surely it doesn't still work though does it? just thought that with new patch, faster observer seeing everything and the obvious stargaet chron'd phoenixes response it is hard countered?
Yeah it's definitely not an auto-win anymore. I do feel the faster observers have made a difference. My success rate on the hellion drop has lowered drastically. It made the timing a lot tighter so that you need to get your loaded medivac out of your base as soon as the 3rd hellion is out.
If you make a refinery before the barracks, you can probably get to his base about 20-30seconds faster with the medivac but you are very vurnerable to frontal attacks. The chronoed phoenixes make this build much harder but I prefer it to the standard MMM.
You brought about the demise of standard TVT and now you have to make terrans better against me? :'( In all seriousness, nice build order, hope you can keep contributing the tl.net community even while school is going. Best of luck!
Thanks for sharing your build iEchoic. (I hope you find a cool build for TvZ :D)
I've been using this at mid-high masters and still enjoying success with it. My thoughts:
-Banshees are ridiculous and this opening forces the toss to get a lot of tech to match yours, making this build viable -Phoenix first deals with it decent but you can match with vikings and focus more on bio. -Against collosus it seems to be really strong if P continues down the robo tech -"Fast" HT "opening" seems fairly good vs this build, but i haven't played vs it much and i've only seen it against people who know what build i'm doing (makes starport more useless imo -- midgame transition to HT is ok because you can get ghosts and emp HTs as well as any banshees.) -Any early aggression (especially ones where your bunkers at ramp are rendered useless) is hard to deal with and i had trouble with it at first. overall 2 starport is very strong as long as you survive any protoss aggression, so i put down 2 bunkers if no expo, and 3rd bunker if no expo by the time my hellions drop -Good build for the current TvP "metagame" on ladder
I've also done a variation where i opt for a faster CC instead of hellion drop, because the hellion drop has got me a lot of free wins on ladder but it hasn't been "incredibly strong even if they know its coming ahead of time" for custom games. (You still have to scout somehow though :D)
First of all, I would like to thank you for sharing you ingenious build with us. I can only hope that one day I can devise my own builds, you are truly an inspiration. One thing I do have to say is that your hotkey setup is insane! lol. I tried it and obviously since I'm not used to it it didn't work very well, I definitely have to give you props for that. Again, I thank you for sharing, along with your TvT build, that too was very clever. After I get used to these builds I believe it will help me immensely with these match ups. Keep up the good work and I am anxious to see what you come up with in the future.
Hi TL Forum! Disclaimers: I’m a bronze level player trying hard to advance up the ladders and am reading these forums heavily to help my game play. I’m not posting a replay because a) it’s a little embarrassing and b) this is a more generic question and I didn’t want to focus on a single build. There are a ton of question in here and I’ve labeled them like this (x) so any help for any part would be much appreciated.
I’ve been using this TvP build exclusively in my ladder play and probably win about 50% of the time but I want to get a higher win level with it. I’ve watched all of the replays in the OP and one general difference between my games and the OP’s are that my games last longer. Instead of over in 14 minutes, they are lasting 25 min ish. So I think fundamentally, I’m building up a MM army with banshees, but being passive about it, missing my attack window, and then pushing with an army that the ‘toss has since teched past while instead of teching I just amassed an army of lower level units. So my question is as follows: what are good signs on when to push generally (1).
I have the build opening down and I match replay timing (medic drop in early 6 min mark) and I always can defend the first toss push if there is one with my bunker and 8 marines. I have lots of success with my drops, usually killing 8-10 probes. I then can get a good idea of what he has with my drop. For this disc, let’s assume he doesn’t have any stargates (I can do well agaisnt that by countering with vikings), I find on the ladders that he either has a bunch (4-6) gates or 2 gates and some robo’s. Usually also has a nexus at natural by this time.
If he has a bunch of gates, I think he’ll have a decent size army to my push (2), so I go to harass with 3-6 banshees and research cloak while building Marines/marauders (2 rax with labs, 1 with reactor – so 2 marauders 2 marines each cycle). Usually I’m able to get some free probe sniping on the order of 5-10 until his stalkers come over. Should I push with my ground army at this point for the front gate(3)? If so, should I loop my banshees around back and attack front and back at same time, or is it better to support the ground army? (4)
Assuming he has robo+2 gates, I usually skip the cloak (as in OP). I’m thinking he won’t have as much ground army so I should not tip my hand with the banshee harass (5) and just wait until I have 6 banshees and whatever ground army I have at that point and push. Usually I’ll run into a colossi. At this point, should I focus fire my banshees and MM on the stalkers to take out the anti air (6), or focus on the colossi b/c it does such massive damage to the MM? (7)
B/c I find I’m running so often into a bunch of stalkers (9ish) I was thinking of trying to bring along a raven for the PDD? It seems in the forums that this is a micro intensive unit for newbies, but can reap good rewards against toss. (8)
Stim research for MM? And when you push, do you drop a PDD at the ramp (or forces) or use auto turrets or just use the raven for a detector so that you can kill observer and then rely on cloak?
Diamond player, tried this build 10 games vs P in ladder and I find it fun to keep up the harass with the 3 hellions and 1 banshee hitting the main and expo simultaneosly. It works wonders against the current 3 gate expo heavy sentry meta-game as sentries are so slow and light.
On April 20 2011 05:41 sunbeam22 wrote: So my question is as follows: what are good signs on when to push generally (1).
If he has a bunch of gates, I think he’ll have a decent size army to my push (2), so I go to harass with 3-6 banshees and research cloak while building Marines/marauders (2 rax with labs, 1 with reactor – so 2 marauders 2 marines each cycle). Should I push with my ground army at this point for the front gate(3)? If so, should I loop my banshees around back and attack front and back at same time, or is it better to support the ground army? (4)
I’m thinking he won’t have as much ground army so I should not tip my hand with the banshee harass (5) and just wait until I have 6 banshees and whatever ground army I have at that point and push. Usually I’ll run into a colossi. At this point, should I focus fire my banshees and MM on the stalkers to take out the anti air (6), or focus on the colossi b/c it does such massive damage to the MM? (7)
B/c I find I’m running so often into a bunch of stalkers (9ish) I was thinking of trying to bring along a raven for the PDD? It seems in the forums that this is a micro intensive unit for newbies, but can reap good rewards against toss. (8)
Hi sunbeam. I'm high plat for reference and I easily win most games when I use this build vs protoss, even when they know it's coming.
I always push out around 4-5 banshees (for me this is generally around 9:30), depending on how the starports were built (was one a bit late or something). If he's one basing, yes he'll have a roughly equivalent army. It's absolutely key that you pick your fight. Don't get split in half running up the ramp too soon. Use the banshees to skirt around the edges and pick off a zealot here or there. You should always keep your banshees with your army. You've spent so much money on them that your ground army is weak alone, and will get stomped if left alone against his ground army. Definitely do not harass with banshees before your push because it does sort of tip your hand.
If there are colossi, there should be only 1. Set the banshees on the colossi and spread out your mm force to try and minimize damage. If there are 2, he sacrificed gateway army for this, and I would probably go for stalkers instead. A raven is amazing and practically auto-win if there are high stalker counts. I try to build one in the 3rd or 4th round of stargate production.
In general, remember that you don't have to attack him. If you are unsure about going up a ramp, just sit at his natural, expand yourself, get map vision, etc. You'll be ahead economically and should have few problems winning.
for some reason, i dont do well when i go double starport. instead of making a second starport, i drop a command center, research siege, and make 2-3 more rax. the banshees will force stalkers, and siege tanks rip apart stalkers. im only in plat, but does anyone else do this?
On May 18 2011 18:31 MasterFischer wrote: What do you do against a protoss FE with this build?
Ya i know.. harass with bainshees, hellion drop him.. BUT
What if the hellion drop fails to do eco dmg? or maybe get 2-4 probes?
And his stalkers chase your bainshees away from probe harass..
He will have a stronger eco...
do you just expand yourself, and wait to push out?
Or just push out with 2-4 baines and the marines u got?
The is, he will most defitely have ALOT of zealots, and maybe phoenix stalker, which shuts down this build hard imo
Tbh it's fairly hard to not do damage with your hellions I find you need to really really screw up to not do any damage but by keeping up the drops and expanding yourself you can keep map control by having the threat of blue flame 24/7 he really can't leave unless he wants to all in and with the banshees and bunkers and repair you can almost always hold if you can see it coming. Especially if he does FE because he now has to guard double the mineral lines lol super easy to sneak in some hellions from the front while you drop the back.
I play this strange I guess I use the hellion drop to buy me time to expand and maybe do some good damage. Then I expand and use the double banshees to help hold my expansion from a counter with bunker support and I follow with a bunch of barracks so I can steam roll the toss before the amount of colossi can get to the point where my banshees can't snipe them really fast.
I've been doing quick blue flame hellion drops against P, then moving to Banshees and it's been awesome. Turns out I've been unknowingly using a variant of this iEchoic build Love the write up and how much more refined it is to what I've been doing (like getting 2x port, getting vikings if robo bay is spotted, etc.). I was just auto-transititioning to marauder/ghost lategame, which didn't turn out sometimes.
Thanks!
P.S., noticed the write-up is quite old. Are there major differences with all the new patches?
pheonix production cuts into their gateway army. it should prompt you to stop banshee production and use them only to harass when your armies are engaged. That way your banshees can still do damage in his base, or he warps in units at his base making it a little easier to kill his standing army.
If he makes a lot of pheonix it doesnt hurt to start getting your viking numbers up, as it will follow-through and help you deal with later colossus
Hi i'm about a 700 master player on NA ladder. I like to open 1 gate robo into expand and I have found that this particular build is actually very stoppable as long as you don't lose a lot to the hellion drop. While you are in their base with an obs (or 2) you will know whether or not the terran is going to commit to an attack or a tech change. If he gets a raven, you can safely assume an attack is coming. If he expands early, you aren't going to die. If he commits to an attack after a moderately successful helion drop I have found the perfect solution that is obscenely easy. MASS CANNONS. He will scan before attacking so he probably won't suicide his army into you but even if he backs off and expands you will be leagues ahead (btw, you should have put your templar archives down as soon as you can after seeing 1-base stargate tech. but yeah, I've smothered this build with a pillow a couple of times and that's all there really is to it
TLDR: fast expand, defend drops with stalkers, scout, get templar tech, drop many cannons at your expo, hard counter the hell out of this build
It makes me sad that this got buried, so I will bump it while simultaneously asking a question! How does this work with the current metagame? And is it still a worthwhile build to start learning right now? Thanks!
It's worthwhile to know and useful to win games if you execute it well. But as VictorJones said, a lot of cannons and intelligent drop defence with stalkers will make it very difficult to win earlyish as this build tends to. It will give you map control though so you can expand or double expand which I like a lot.
If you are confident you can handle hellion drops and banshee control then absolutely learn it and use it
This build is really cool, though it does need quite some practice to master. I'm using this build vs toss atm and it's working well, just some problems vs 4gate (Ya i know , everybody can def vs 4gate, thats what I thought too... but.. :/)
The build is awsome, i win 90% of my matches with it, if i lose i watch the replay and see what i have done wrong,most of the time is my macro was fuked up, or i didnt scout/scan what build my enemy is going for (5-10min)
Hm, I would really love some more, updated replays. Evidently, the replays posted are extremely old. I'll still watch the older ones, just to see what it looks like. I'm having a terrible time vs toss with my standard MMMGV ball. Or it's just cause I'm silver.
Hey iechoic, In the OP you say that battle-cruisers should no longer be used due to the damage nerf in patch 1.1. Do you think that the speed buff in patch 1.3 has made BCs usable again in this build?
I still use this build against toss 100% of the time, and it's freaking awesome. I'm mid-diamond and TvP is my best matchup.
I have altered the build a little bit though. I've found that as I moved up to high-plat and now diamond, a lot of toss players see the hellion drop coming and can either forcefield the hellions from the probes or just kill them with stalkers waiting in the mineral line. With this in mind, unless the spawn positions are close by air, I forego the hellion drop and use the minerals saved to drop an expansion cc after I get my first starport up. This allows me to have economy to fall back on if my push fails while not really putting me that behind on army. Thoughts?
On July 30 2011 13:28 legend4411 wrote: Dose it work against master protoss?
This is a strategy that does not rely on your opponent fucking up, so yea, it will work against masters toss. Like all 1 base plays however, if it is scouted you and they react properly with a nexus followed by pheonix, then you will either straight up die, or be significantly behind.
On January 06 2012 16:37 Sidistyk wrote: Is this build still viable?
i would say so, but with warp prism play becoming a lot more popular its easy for protoss to bypass you bunker defense. so in other words, not if hes going quick robo
On January 06 2012 16:37 Sidistyk wrote: Is this build still viable?
Viable to win ladder games yeah, but I don't think it's a solid style to play in TvP. There's a reason you don't see it in high level games, I'd say most people consider it pretty gimmicky.
On January 06 2012 16:37 Sidistyk wrote: Is this build still viable?
Viable to win ladder games yeah, but I don't think it's a solid style to play in TvP. There's a reason you don't see it in high level games, I'd say most people consider it pretty gimmicky.
I agree. Not solid, any decent player knows he cannot identify 1/1/1 and so if no marauders gets robo at like 32 food and then an obs when it done. You can pretty much infer from a starport+reactor and a couple hellions lying around, or even a no add-on factory that you could see hellion drops. Basically if u see medivac with obs, doesn't matter whats in them, P is going to prepare vs drop.
According to the replays, the 3 hellion drop is really more for scouting and to kill a few drones in the process. He does not keep them at all throughout the rest of the games. I don;t think hellion drop is what wins the game of course. Banshees only do 3 less dmg vs Colossus and the tech allows for some versatility in the late game...Thoughts?
On January 08 2012 22:50 KenDM wrote: What about 4Gates or 3gate robo's? What if he decides to basetrade?
I would have to watch the replays again to check, there are about 6 of them I think and I am sure he encounters both those scenarios (4 gate and 3 gate+robo) with no issues. As for a base trade, well, don't get caught out of position =] I still have not tried the build yet. I have been out of game for 5 months and still working on getting my hands back, focusing on macro exercises etc.... However, I am looking for builds to start practicing to hit ladder in the next week or so when I am feeling up to par... Hence my interest in this build since a friend recommended it...