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Background Alright this guide will teach you the art of one base play, and more importantly a very useful build to add to your arsenal. This is a 1 marine 3 marauder 1 hellion poke that transitions into an army built from a total of 3 raxes, 2 starports, 1 factory. This idea was taken partly from TLO but is a build I have refined quite a bit.
First Poke The first "poke" comes in the early game. This is very similar to the 1 marine, two marauder, 1 reaper play, however this consists of 1 marine, 3 marauders, and 1 hellion at around the exact same timing.
This simple poke in with 5 units can end the game many times vs a greedy protoss, but it will at the very least let you know exactly what you're opponent is up to(by seeing what he is defending with). Watch replay or try it yourself to see just how effective it can be.
Transition This build starts off as a 1-1-1, where you build 1 rax(marine then techlab), one factory, than one starport when money allows. After you're 3rd marauder pops out as part of the early poke-in, throw down a starport, then two more raxes(you should be attacking at this point w/ your inital 5 units).
Begin a raven asap, throwdown a second starport when raven is around 30-50% done, then a techlab onto the factory. Around this time your initial 5 units will either be dead, near dead, or have won you the game.
Push After the 5 unit poke-in is finished you should now be at 3 raxes, 2 starports, and 1 factory , as well as having a raven out or almost out. Because terran is imbalanced, you can actually support all 6 buildings, so just start to pump out triple marine, double banshee, and single hellion.
When your two banshees pop out, it is time to push. Usually this two banshee, one raven, mass marine, and a pinch of hellions will win you the game if you do it right(until higher diamond at least). A well placed pdd will make it impossible for him to engage you. The only weakness to this first push is that you want to engage protoss at his base to make the pdd really strong, an open field will just allow toss to retreat. Waiting for 4 banshees will result in a much larger push and is a smarter idea in some circumstances.
What to do after Two choices, either expand while attacking, or just continue to rally more units, either is very viable. If you choose to expand build another raven to lock down your natural to future counter attack. If you choose to just continue to rally, your goal should be to plant down a point-defense-drone at his ramp so you can bust it(he will be forced to fall back from it).
Why this is strong. In one sentence. You are producing out of SIX structures relatively early in the game, your army count will be ridiculously high.
The first raven nullfies all stalkers, as well as allows you to snipe observers/defend dt rushes.
Let's do a little theory crafting here. Gateway units that shoot up are sentries and stalkers. Sentries have very little dps are are support units in general, whereas stalkers can't do anything about early game pdd(due to the low unit count). Zealots have a ton of hp and do a ton of damage, but with marines and hellions a little bit of scoot and shoot micro can melt them pretty quickly. Immortals aren't too big of a problem because you are not making a single armoured ground unit.
This build even defeats void rays with relative ease for three reasons. One being that you are massing marines. Two being that this means he has a weak gateway army making it nearly impossible for stalkers to even hit the banshees(due to pdd) and hellions will be there to take care of zealots. Three being the fact that if you scout or think there is an early stargate, you have two starports ready to pump vikings(same response to phoenix).
When you should use this build. Because this build starts off with the standard 10 sup, 12 rax, 13 gas, 15 orbital, you will be able to scout your opponent before deciding whether or not you want to use it. Close positions or two player maps are good choices.
Does it really work? I'm a 1.1k diamond terran and have been using this almost exclusively on the ladder, I can say I am winning about 80% of my TvPs with it. Try it yourself and see! Also played two 800+ diamond protosses on the CEVO tournament and went 4-0 with it there.
Build Order Near perfect timing vs a bronze noob! From this replay note the following timings: -hellion catching up to your poke force -concussive finishes just as you are about to attack -raven finishes just as second starport is going into the add-on -3 rax 1 fact 2 port production begins with a good flow + Show Spoiler + -10 Supply Depot -12 Barracks -13 Gas -15 Orbital Command Center -16 Marine -16 Supply Depot -16 Tech Lab -19 Marauder -Factory -Refinery -Marauder -Supply <-VERY IMPORTANT DEPOT, YOU MISS THIS YOU GET NO HELLION! -Marauder -Concussive -Hellion <- ITS POKE TIME! Then in this order, not including supply depots/units. -Starport -Rax -Rax -Starport -Techlab(on factory to be added to second port)
Replays
I'll add more later. epic fail first raven push, but still won one-sidely Scrap station, no poke due to distance, but same idea, open field pdd. xel naga, no poke due to early aggression, caught off guard by voids, VERY UNREFINED HERE 5 unit poke auto win vs 1 gate robo on steps 1.1k diamond protoss, fast templar attempt fail, CROSS POSITION METALOPOLIS Lose everything to 3 gate robo+stargate, no problem. 1k toss, gaining advantage with poke 1k diamond toss, all-in w/ scvs
2-1-3 w fast CC 3-1-2 vs 1.2k toss 3-1-2 vs 1.2k toss, good use of templar/micro to beat it 3-1-2 vs 1k diamond, no poke due to agression long game vs 1.4k toss
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inb4 everyone else starts screaming OMG TERRAN IS IMBA (but ugh, yikes, I'm going to hate seeing this crap on the ladder on short distance maps)
I'm...really not sure what the hell I'd do against this. One base collosus might work, but that's a pretty big 'might', seeing as ravens null stalkers, which would deal with the banshees. That would come down to micro big time on the 'toss part.
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i like the poke idea. i've been playing 1-1-1 too lately and need some sort of poke indeed
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16927 Posts
Just a quick clarification:
The add-ons on the buildings are one tech lab on barracks, and two tech labs on the starports, right? Nothing else?
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On September 01 2010 15:16 Empyrean wrote: Just a quick clarification:
The add-ons on the buildings are one tech lab on barracks, and two tech labs on the starports, right? Nothing else?
The tech lab on the rax get's used for the starport since you stop marauder production. You should have a total of two tech labs from 6 buildings(the second being build on the factory to be swapped into the 2nd starport).
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Interesting - will have to try this on ladder tonight!
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..This sounds scary against EVERYTHING!
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Thinking about it more - I like the idea of expanding after your first real push (not the poke), and throwing add-ons onto the buildings. A quick way to bring your production up to spend the extra money from the expo... interesting!
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sound like the only way to beat this is sneaking up a hidden early gas expo while fending off early poke off 1 chrono gate - 3 warp gate, then rushing HTs or Carriers
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On September 01 2010 15:57 panda_inc wrote: sound like the only way to beat this is sneaking up a hidden early gas expo while fending off early poke off 1 chrono gate - 3 warp gate, then rushing HTs or Carriers Whattttt? It's a strong build but not unbeatable. Just standard play with good defense and knowledge of the build will beat it or good phoenix/sentry play.
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sounds liek a strong build. if it is as successful as it sounds then maybe it'll reduce the amount of mmmg games i see these days
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Oooo thank you thank you. I always do this two starport build, but I had no idea how to use it as well as you do. MOAR REPLAYS PUHLEZZ
Edit: I wish the standard post was laid out like yours is, shoot very ez to read. Good post.
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Australia7069 Posts
Sounds like storm could wreck your day. What would be your response if you scouted a P rushing for psi storm?
also 6 structures off 1 base? all in
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On September 01 2010 16:56 Chunkybuddha wrote: Oooo thank you thank you. I always do this two starport build, but I had no idea how to use it as well as you do. MOAR REPLAYS PUHLEZZ
Edit: I wish the standard post was laid out like yours is, shoot very ez to read. Good post. I didn't save my replays T_T have to actually play games to get new reps up. I have a few from minerva/cevo but that was b4 I refined it into the 5 unit poke->1 raven timing push->transition.
TY though =]
On September 01 2010 17:00 Kiante wrote:Sounds like storm could wreck your day. What would be your response if you scouted a P rushing for psi storm? also 6 structures off 1 base? all in It is impossible to get to storm without dying to the 1 raven 2 banshee push, plus what kind of protoss would blindly rush for templar(which would mean no robo). So if I did scout a P rushing for psi storm I would do a barrel roll.
It's not all in there is an expand timing if you read the thread. Not to mention that 3 rax 1 fact rine/hellion costs only 250/0 per cycle(very freaking cheap), and banshees take forever to build at 300/200 per cycle. Unit cost wise its cheaper than a protoss going 3 gate robo, do the math.
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I'll watch the replays, but I think a 12gate cyber with another gate constantly pumping should be enough to stop the initial poke, and depending on the timing of the initial push, for a defending protoss, a FE might be feasable with constant zealot/stalker production to defend. It just comes down to being able to keep the raven from getting off PDD. If the protoss player could hold off your push, he would be way ahead in terms of economy. although, your banshees might prove trouble with cloak.
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How does this build do against the kcdc fast expand build?
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On September 01 2010 17:08 frogmelter wrote: How does this build do against the kcdc fast expand build?
I think defending the initial push wouldn't be that big of a problem, when the second push comes it really dependent on the toss to be actively scouting, any pressure from the toss that forces the raven to waste its energy before the toss choke and the push fails. The more time you give toss the better toss is going to be imo. passive toss will get owned. i don't know if you get robo after 3 warp gate (if the obs comes in time) to spot the push.
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On September 01 2010 17:02 whiteguycash wrote: I'll watch the replays, but I think a 12gate cyber with another gate constantly pumping should be enough to stop the initial poke, and depending on the timing of the initial push, for a defending protoss, a FE might be feasable with constant zealot/stalker production to defend. It just comes down to being able to keep the raven from getting off PDD. If the protoss player could hold off your push, he would be way ahead in terms of economy. although, your banshees might prove trouble with cloak. You do realize the poke is a POKE not a way to win the game. If the protoss holds it off it doesn't matter, the whole purpose is really just a "technical" scouting force with the possibility to do some good damage. If its defended by only gateway units terran will know that toss went 2 gate before robo or stargate. if its defended by a fast immortal terran will know toss went 1 gate robo, etc.
You can't FE vs this with only zealots on stalkers. A PDD on your natural will be an automatic gg, while marine/hellions kite your zels. Unit count will be too low to defend first raven push.
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I have faced this a lot lately like every single terran does this lol(BTW shouldn't this be 3/1/2???).I open phoenixes all my pvt-s so it's kind of easier to handle though .The only thing that is really problematic here is that even if terran is making vikings the tech labs have the same glow as if it is upgrading so you always have to assume he is getting cloack :/.
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On September 01 2010 17:15 superbabosheki wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 17:02 whiteguycash wrote: I'll watch the replays, but I think a 12gate cyber with another gate constantly pumping should be enough to stop the initial poke, and depending on the timing of the initial push, for a defending protoss, a FE might be feasable with constant zealot/stalker production to defend. It just comes down to being able to keep the raven from getting off PDD. If the protoss player could hold off your push, he would be way ahead in terms of economy. although, your banshees might prove trouble with cloak. You do realize the poke is a POKE not a way to win the game. If the protoss holds it off it doesn't matter, the whole purpose is really just a "technical" scouting force with the possibility to do some good damage. If its defended by only gateway units terran will know that toss went 2 gate before robo or stargate. if its defended by a fast immortal terran will know toss went 1 gate robo, etc. You can't FE vs this with only zealots on stalkers. A PDD on your natural will be an automatic gg, while marine/hellions kite your zels. Unit count will be too low to defend first raven push.
That'd not his point. If you push towards protoss and force them to either back off or use a pdd the major threat of this build is nullified.
Not saying it's a bad build or anything, but that's something to bear in mind with your execution.
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On September 01 2010 17:20 Piy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 17:15 superbabosheki wrote:On September 01 2010 17:02 whiteguycash wrote: I'll watch the replays, but I think a 12gate cyber with another gate constantly pumping should be enough to stop the initial poke, and depending on the timing of the initial push, for a defending protoss, a FE might be feasable with constant zealot/stalker production to defend. It just comes down to being able to keep the raven from getting off PDD. If the protoss player could hold off your push, he would be way ahead in terms of economy. although, your banshees might prove trouble with cloak. You do realize the poke is a POKE not a way to win the game. If the protoss holds it off it doesn't matter, the whole purpose is really just a "technical" scouting force with the possibility to do some good damage. If its defended by only gateway units terran will know that toss went 2 gate before robo or stargate. if its defended by a fast immortal terran will know toss went 1 gate robo, etc. You can't FE vs this with only zealots on stalkers. A PDD on your natural will be an automatic gg, while marine/hellions kite your zels. Unit count will be too low to defend first raven push. That'd not his point. If you push towards protoss and force them to either back off or use a pdd the major threat of this build is nullified. Not saying it's a bad build or anything, but that's something to bear in mind with your execution.
The only weakness to this first push is that you want to engage protoss at his base to make the pdd really strong, an open field will just allow toss to retreat. I was already aware of that if you read the OP. His post was about FEing before mentioning pdd. I just told him that FEing will probably give terran an autowin(on two player or close positions of course).
A lot of people seem to be missing the point that T has a buttload of units. PDD doesn't make or break this build, even using it in an open field means that you are getting quite a few hits on his retreating army(banshees have insane range and attack speed/power).
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Seems like a solid build, could you put up a few more replays when you get a chance?
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On September 01 2010 17:38 Kinmaul wrote: Seems like a solid build, could you put up a few more replays when you get a chance? Added two more with varying protoss styles, I think the xel naga cavern games is pretty hilarious =]
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I've been trying to wane myself off tanks tvp to deal with patch 1.1, maybe this build will be what I need! Thanks.
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how about a quick vr? I just played a game where a toss got one out at ~5 mins in, seems like at this time on your replies you only have 1 marine so unless u burn a scan'/he lets you keep an scv in his base?
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nah, thats why i never build stalkers or phoenices, fu pdd. yeah, sentries are weak, but an army consisting of heavy zealots-sentry, could just kill of your rines with guardian shield and forcefield and mass sentry can kill 2 banshees. perhaps i´m mistaken, but those 1,1 k points of you scare me a bit off, though i´m not quite much behind, but that would mean, that you beat me like 80%^^, which also scares me.
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On September 01 2010 18:15 Sub40APM wrote: how about a quick vr? I just played a game where a toss got one out at ~5 mins in, seems like at this time on your replies you only have 1 marine so unless u burn a scan'/he lets you keep an scv in his base? I've been doing a build very similar to this and it pretty much hard counters vrs. First of all, the initial attack will cripple him. He won't have enough stuff to deal with the push, and if you keep hellions rallied to his base you can kill a bunch of probes. The startport which you put up after pushing pumps out a viking, as it should become pretty obvious that he is going VR once you're in his base. 1 viking + 2 marines wins vs a vr pretty easily, the viking prevents him from charging on anything w/ micro. (~1.3k terran here)
I would like to make a couple notes about the opener, though. I feel like 1 marine + 3 marauders + 1 hellions is too slow. The 3rd marauder and hellion will finish at about the same time, which does not take advantage of the hellion's speed. If you do 2 rine 2 marauder + 1 hellion, you can push out w/ your bio, and the hellion will get to the front in time for the ramp push.
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Seems like banshee play is the new tvp. Between this and that other hellion drop build.
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On September 01 2010 18:31 Red Alert wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 18:15 Sub40APM wrote: how about a quick vr? I just played a game where a toss got one out at ~5 mins in, seems like at this time on your replies you only have 1 marine so unless u burn a scan'/he lets you keep an scv in his base? I've been doing a build very similar to this and it pretty much hard counters vrs. First of all, the initial attack will cripple him. He won't have enough stuff to deal with the push, and if you keep hellions rallied to his base you can kill a bunch of probes. The startport which you put up after pushing pumps out a viking, as it should become pretty obvious that he is going VR once you're in his base. 1 viking + 2 marines wins vs a vr pretty easily, the viking prevents him from charging on anything w/ micro. (~1.3k terran here) I would like to make a couple notes about the opener, though. I feel like 1 marine + 3 marauders + 1 hellions is too slow. The 3rd marauder and hellion will finish at about the same time, which does not take advantage of the hellion's speed. If you do 2 rine 2 marauder + 1 hellion, you can push out w/ your bio, and the hellion will get to the front in time for the ramp push. Good points, yeah it does hard counter voids pretty hard.
The 3rd marauder pops out when the hellion is 50% done if timed correctly(I do marine, tech lab/marauder, factory, maruader, concussive, marauder, hellion, with a second gas somewhere in there).
As long as you don't get sup capped at 27/27 the timing actually works pretty well depending on the rush distance.
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How does this compare to the iEchoic's hellion drop? Any thoughts from people who tried both builds perhaps? Cheers
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Mods please change the title to 3/1/2 since this look like a 3 rax 2 factory 1 starport build.
Looks cool, will try at home.
I've meant to include ravens in my 1/1/2 but this looks like a very refined timing. Can't wait to crush my Protoss training buddies ^_^
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Any Terrans want to practice this build?
I'm 600-700ish diamond toss. Jon.1889 or pm here.
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On September 01 2010 20:38 ChickenLips wrote: Mods please change the title to 3/1/2 since this look like a 3 rax 2 factory 1 starport build.
edit: nvm, I'm just going to give you the benefit of the doubt.
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This build is quite similar to iEchoic's 1/1/2 build with 2 more rax + fast exp after second starport goes down.
instead of poking at the protoss, you could drop 3 hellions into the protoss main and fry all his probes in one go... then mass marines from 3-4 rax.. + bainshees and a raven..
even for next patch this build will be EVEN better... why? Because zealots gets a warp-in and build time nerf
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On September 01 2010 20:57 MasterFischer wrote:This build is quite similar to iEchoic's 1/1/2 build with 2 more rax + fast exp after second starport goes down. instead of poking at the protoss, you could drop 3 hellions into the protoss main and fry all his probes in one go... then mass marines from 3-4 rax.. + bainshees and a raven.. even for next patch this build will be EVEN better... why? Because zealots gets a warp-in and build time nerf
I think (without having tried it though) this build is better than iEchoic's. His build pumps marines from 1 rax (which for me is then around 10 marines) and pushes with 4 banshees while this build relies on a much more ground heavy force with the banshees providing nice added DPS. What often happens with the 1/1/2 (and even more so if you delay it with the hellion drop) is that a Toss with good macro (talking 1000+ diamond) will have enough stuff to just rip apart your marines and then focus on your banshees. Microing marines against zealots works for about 2 shots, then you have to either split them up (while you are doing only damage from your banshees that are getting killed) or run away...
Getting all my production facilities up and then macroing seems better since from the 1/1/2 pumping units while building workers / depots / a CC / 2 more rax i just dont get enough units to really put a dent in my toss opponent. Also Day9 said in his last daily that you can stop unit production to get more unit-producing facilites.
I'm glad the OP posted this thread since I don't have to find my own raven timings etc. now
Also @ superbabosheki:
I think you can really make your OP more appealing to the eye by maybe posting a picture of what your first and / or second push is composed off (every1 loves pics), posting your replays by using the star2.org replay graphic and by first off telling us your rating (and not somewhere in the wall of text) since, while I hate people flashing their rating like an e-peen (and i really dont care about mine), it gives me a good idea of how well you play the game. Great OP keep up the good work!
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On September 01 2010 19:50 superbabosheki wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 18:31 Red Alert wrote:On September 01 2010 18:15 Sub40APM wrote: how about a quick vr? I just played a game where a toss got one out at ~5 mins in, seems like at this time on your replies you only have 1 marine so unless u burn a scan'/he lets you keep an scv in his base? I've been doing a build very similar to this and it pretty much hard counters vrs. First of all, the initial attack will cripple him. He won't have enough stuff to deal with the push, and if you keep hellions rallied to his base you can kill a bunch of probes. The startport which you put up after pushing pumps out a viking, as it should become pretty obvious that he is going VR once you're in his base. 1 viking + 2 marines wins vs a vr pretty easily, the viking prevents him from charging on anything w/ micro. (~1.3k terran here) I would like to make a couple notes about the opener, though. I feel like 1 marine + 3 marauders + 1 hellions is too slow. The 3rd marauder and hellion will finish at about the same time, which does not take advantage of the hellion's speed. If you do 2 rine 2 marauder + 1 hellion, you can push out w/ your bio, and the hellion will get to the front in time for the ramp push. Good points, yeah it does hard counter voids pretty hard. The 3rd marauder pops out when the hellion is 50% done if timed correctly(I do marine, tech lab/marauder, factory, maruader, concussive, marauder, hellion, with a second gas somewhere in there). As long as you don't get sup capped at 27/27 the timing actually works pretty well depending on the rush distance.
It really depends how specific with the build you get, I guess. I like to go fact before tech lab to do the push that much earlier (albeit weaker w/ the marine instead of the marauder).
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On September 01 2010 21:20 Red Alert wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 19:50 superbabosheki wrote:On September 01 2010 18:31 Red Alert wrote:On September 01 2010 18:15 Sub40APM wrote: how about a quick vr? I just played a game where a toss got one out at ~5 mins in, seems like at this time on your replies you only have 1 marine so unless u burn a scan'/he lets you keep an scv in his base? I've been doing a build very similar to this and it pretty much hard counters vrs. First of all, the initial attack will cripple him. He won't have enough stuff to deal with the push, and if you keep hellions rallied to his base you can kill a bunch of probes. The startport which you put up after pushing pumps out a viking, as it should become pretty obvious that he is going VR once you're in his base. 1 viking + 2 marines wins vs a vr pretty easily, the viking prevents him from charging on anything w/ micro. (~1.3k terran here) I would like to make a couple notes about the opener, though. I feel like 1 marine + 3 marauders + 1 hellions is too slow. The 3rd marauder and hellion will finish at about the same time, which does not take advantage of the hellion's speed. If you do 2 rine 2 marauder + 1 hellion, you can push out w/ your bio, and the hellion will get to the front in time for the ramp push. Good points, yeah it does hard counter voids pretty hard. The 3rd marauder pops out when the hellion is 50% done if timed correctly(I do marine, tech lab/marauder, factory, maruader, concussive, marauder, hellion, with a second gas somewhere in there). As long as you don't get sup capped at 27/27 the timing actually works pretty well depending on the rush distance. It really depends how specific with the build you get, I guess. I like to go fact before tech lab to do the push that much earlier (albeit weaker w/ the marine instead of the marauder).
I think its more logical to get the slower units out first so they have more time to get to the opponents base, even if it delays the fast units by a bit. (pure theorycraft though)
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On September 01 2010 21:26 ChickenLips wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 21:20 Red Alert wrote:On September 01 2010 19:50 superbabosheki wrote:On September 01 2010 18:31 Red Alert wrote:On September 01 2010 18:15 Sub40APM wrote: how about a quick vr? I just played a game where a toss got one out at ~5 mins in, seems like at this time on your replies you only have 1 marine so unless u burn a scan'/he lets you keep an scv in his base? I've been doing a build very similar to this and it pretty much hard counters vrs. First of all, the initial attack will cripple him. He won't have enough stuff to deal with the push, and if you keep hellions rallied to his base you can kill a bunch of probes. The startport which you put up after pushing pumps out a viking, as it should become pretty obvious that he is going VR once you're in his base. 1 viking + 2 marines wins vs a vr pretty easily, the viking prevents him from charging on anything w/ micro. (~1.3k terran here) I would like to make a couple notes about the opener, though. I feel like 1 marine + 3 marauders + 1 hellions is too slow. The 3rd marauder and hellion will finish at about the same time, which does not take advantage of the hellion's speed. If you do 2 rine 2 marauder + 1 hellion, you can push out w/ your bio, and the hellion will get to the front in time for the ramp push. Good points, yeah it does hard counter voids pretty hard. The 3rd marauder pops out when the hellion is 50% done if timed correctly(I do marine, tech lab/marauder, factory, maruader, concussive, marauder, hellion, with a second gas somewhere in there). As long as you don't get sup capped at 27/27 the timing actually works pretty well depending on the rush distance. It really depends how specific with the build you get, I guess. I like to go fact before tech lab to do the push that much earlier (albeit weaker w/ the marine instead of the marauder). I think its more logical to get the slower units out first so they have more time to get to the opponents base, even if it delays the fast units by a bit. (pure theorycraft though)
it's not quite that simple, the question is - by how much? By your logic it would be better to throw down a second rax before the factory to get more slow units before the fast one.
btw, my version does not have less units, it just has a marine instead of a marauder. While it is a bit weaker, marine dps vs light units helps make up for that.
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This sounds similar to the iEchoic's 1-1-2 build except this one seems way more allin. Doesn't even seem stronger. No harass opportunities either.
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On September 01 2010 21:48 gillon wrote: This sounds similar to the iEchoic's 1-1-2 build except this one seems way more allin. Doesn't even seem stronger. No harass opportunities either. the first attack IS the harass, dude. It's not all in at all.
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Vatican City State95 Posts
I use 3 rax, 1 fact, 2 starports vs toss as my opening structures however I do it a bit differently. I get two Rax, 1 tech lab before my factory(with lab) and starport, once my first starport is out I throw down my third rax and add a reactor to one of them. at some point I throw in my ghost lab and second starport.
I focus on heavy bio, with medivacs, tanks for support/securing positions.
Its very strong in my opinion and allows you to create tons of pressure consistently through out the game.
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Thank you for coming up with this build. I am currently having much trouble TvP. I will try this out for sure tonight. (I am in Diamond, all my losses are P)
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Great post OP. As usual, you'll have your idiot platinum players/know-it-alls who will come in this thread and say this build won't work for reason X or reason Y, but all things considered I'd have to say it sounds like a great build.
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On September 01 2010 21:51 Red Alert wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 21:48 gillon wrote: This sounds similar to the iEchoic's 1-1-2 build except this one seems way more allin. Doesn't even seem stronger. No harass opportunities either. the first attack IS the harass, dude. It's not all in at all.
How is 3 rax, 1 fact and 2 port constantly producing NOT an allin? Think of the follow through. And the frontal push most probably will never come close to effect of dropping 3 hellions one shotting heaps of probes.
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Damn you!!!!
This build, at least the way you execute it, is scary as shit.
On the plus side, it gives me more of an excuse to do phoenix play - and who doesn't love phoenix play?
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Ravens only nullify stalkers if hes playing at his choke, waiting to lose.. Any decent protoss player will not do that.
That said, this push is pretty strong, I've only seen replays of it and haven't experienced it
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This push is so fkin scary. Ive personally experienced this and can say that you feel powerless when the unit composition hits you. I did 2gate robo expo into 3 gate robo thinking that a 2 immortal 8 stalker and handful of zealots with 1 sentry could hold this off. i was very very wrong.
Im not sure if you can fast expo vs this build. Can anyone comment on how to counter this build.
Phoenix play? 2 gate into blink stalker?
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Fast templars (if you manage to do this) hard counter banshee/marines build. You can buy time with colossus too. Marines will melt against them. The T must choose between producing banshees and vikings and no terran will like this.
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Just wondering, how much of an alteration will I need to make if I open 10 rax 10 depot 12 OC 13 refinery instead (my standard opening)? I like the idea of the build.
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Do you put reactors on the 3x rax and the factory? Also do you get any upgrades? (pre ignitor, combat shield, stim etc)
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Any replays of you losing? When (if) you lose, why do you lose? When you win, what do you think your opponents could have done better?
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Yep I am 800ish diamond and I have been dominating with this in my TvP's. I frikin LOVE it. Another hidden tactic this transition from marauders to two port banshee is the fact that the opponent will scout 3 marauders + marine early and will possibly transition into immortal, which then you will proceed to roll him with marines and banshees.
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the point of the poke is to force the toss to be getting units instead of teching or expanding too fast
any good toss will have enough units to beat your poke, but your poke will do damage to the toss and will let you scout slightly his build by sending in your hellion
in fact, by using that hellion to drive around his base for a while you can save a scan and the poke partly almost pays for itself cuz you get that 250 minerals from the mule instead of scanning
now every toss should beat back your poke if he is playing standard. i believe even 1gate stargate can beat back the poke with a void ray coming out shortly. but because you have mules and the toss doesnt that means you will outproduce the 1base toss so even if you lose all your poke units and the toss only loses 2 zealots it doesnt matter.
mm / banshee beats toss before high templar or collossi (heck it even beats high templar or collossi) so you will be fine against the toss
as a 800 diamond toss i go 1gate stargate void rays every game against terran. my strategy would beat back the terran and i would be on even grounds against this build. void rays are strong against all units even marines and vikings. 1 charged void ray (250 minerals) will kill 4 stimmed combat shield marines (200 minerals) and the zealots your pumping are more mineral effective than the marines so you can come out on top in the end. speed void rays also are fast and give map control letting you outproduce the terran
i still pump void rays even when my enemy is making vikings and marines. i can still win the battles usually
cloak is a real nightmare but i deal with it usually
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On September 01 2010 17:08 frogmelter wrote: How does this build do against the kcdc fast expand build?
I've played against this kind of strat...raven/marine using kcdc's expo build, and while this build will give a mid-game push that will certainly give you a run for your money, it is by no means unstoppable as a 2 base protoss. (for the record, I lost but there was plenty of room for improvement) Getting pheonixes will certainly make your life easier, but a different solution is just to plant your self somewhere between you and ur opponent base. Just engage once, you should have the larger army, bar PDD, and once your zealots die, retreat (he has no concussive shells, stalkers run faster than banshees, if they over extend themselves pursueing, just snipe them. Then with your ~6 warpgate chronoboosted, add zealotsfor a second engagement which you should win.
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This fine, fine build just whooped som Protoss A$$!
Thank you Superbabosheki!! The initial poke+micro is enough to criple most guys! And they dont even know it's just the start lolololol...
This might be the new 1/1/1.
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Do you mind uploading a loss or two so we can see what the weaknesses of the build are? Should help terrans flush out the build and help toss realize what to do against it.
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On September 02 2010 01:15 ganil wrote: Fast templars (if you manage to do this) hard counter banshee/marines build. You can buy time with colossus too. Marines will melt against them. The T must choose between producing banshees and vikings and no terran will like this.
Banshees actually deal a lot of damage to colossi, so if you can micro them to avoid being sniped you can kill the colossus pretty fast and then you're golden.
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two starport is starting to become standard since banshees are very strong and especially since tanks will start sucking soon.
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Very nice build. Used it now 5 times with 4-1 stats. Only lost cause my poke got owned (Stalkers are faster :/). He rushed instantly after my poke and with 2 marines a raven with ~80energy (+ a helion?) I couldnt defend against that. But all in all. Very nice! )
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Tagging for later, this seems like a very solid build. Wouldn't mind a YABOT string for it either, if anyone would be kind enough.
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Definately seems strong in early game and early midgame. But its very all in'ish. Most protoss one bases their way through every TvP and personally I just hate to lower myself to that I like the initial push though with some tweaks. Just with a way way faster expansion.
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Any idea if HTs are a viable response to this? I don't mean storm, but using feedback on the PDD (will 1-shot it), the raven, the banshees might be useful... then merging archon to help with the marines?
The main issue I see with this is it would be difficult to get in time if you get on obs first in case of cloak.
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On September 02 2010 03:45 vizyn wrote: Any idea if HTs are a viable response to this? I don't mean storm, but using feedback on the PDD (will 1-shot it), the raven, the banshees might be useful... then merging archon to help with the marines?
The main issue I see with this is it would be difficult to get in time if you get on obs first in case of cloak.
i haven't tried this, but i have this feeling that getting HT fast enough to do that leaves you with very little in the way of an army, in which case the PDD doesn't really do anything =P
thanks for the insight OP! i'll give it a shot next time i play.
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The great thing about this build is the counters of pheonix and ht both don't give detection so you can abuse cloak. I have a few questions though, when do you throw down 2nd gas, before 2nd barracks?
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On September 02 2010 03:43 VanGarde wrote:Definately seems strong in early game and early midgame. But its very all in'ish. Most protoss one bases their way through every TvP and personally I just hate to lower myself to that I like the initial push though with some tweaks. Just with a way way faster expansion. Why do people keep saying it is all-in. As soon as you're two banshees pop out you have a PERFECT opportunity to expand if you choose to, as you are expanding while attacking. Not to mention 3 rax and 1 fact marine/hellion are VERY LOW COST, and you can transition to maruders/tanks from there.
Thanks for all the positive comments though =]
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What toss doesn't get a robo in response to a 1-1-1 Terran?
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On September 02 2010 03:59 Yaotzin wrote: What toss doesn't get a robo in response to a 1-1-1 Terran? What does that have to do with anything? Raven nullifies the first obs, immortals are useless vs all 3 units that are being produced, and collosus is very costly only to get shot down by either ravens or vikings.
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4-gate, force the pdd at mid field, expand. Maintain presence of midfield if a pdd is going off you want it midfield lol Either move to storms or collosus, becuase this guy is probally spamming as much as trash as he can off 1 base. Hope you have enough multitask to fend off the banshees who he will inevitably swing around, its always good to be pressuring so he has to use his banshees to stay alive.
Wouldnt it be a dream world if toss could grab every tech building like that and still beable to afford a deadly mix of units rofl
CHeapen toss tech!!
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On September 02 2010 04:01 superbabosheki wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2010 03:59 Yaotzin wrote: What toss doesn't get a robo in response to a 1-1-1 Terran? What does that have to do with anything? Raven nullifies the first obs, immortals are useless vs all 3 units that are being produced, and collosus is very costly only to get shot down by either ravens or vikings. How does the second push correspond to fast collosi? I would think that would be a problem wouldn't it?
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hyperdub (korean terran player who is also qualified for the upcoming GSL) does a similar build that involves 3 rax 2 port and 1 fact
he gets 2nd gas relatively early to get cloak and his first banshee as soon as he get his starport up. he then transitions by getting 1 more starport and 2 more barracks and spamming marines and banshees
he mainly uses the factory just to scout out the protoss (its basically an autowin if the protoss doesnt have a robo or cannons/forge)
this is strong 1base play and it seems you could probably get an expo up if you just cut a few rounds of marines
im glad the OP wrote this up as it seems like tanks vs chargelots are gonna be a problem next patch...and this is what the terran need to develop solid builds for other people to branch off from.
there are some replays of hyperdub's TvP posted on sc2rep.com (posted on 8-30)
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On September 02 2010 04:01 PlagueRat wrote: 4-gate, force the pdd at mid field, expand. Maintain presence of midfield if a pdd is going off you want it midfield lol Either move to storms or collosus, becuase this guy is probally spamming as much as trash as he can off 1 base. Hope you have enough multitask to fend off the banshees who he will inevitably swing around, its always good to be pressuring so he has to use his banshees to stay alive.
Wouldnt it be a dream world if toss could grab every tech building like that and still beable to afford a deadly mix of units rofl
CHeapen toss tech!! Why would toss do a blind 4 gate, that Terran will be able to scout it while the Protoss will be left guessing due to no robo . Let's just keep listing blind ways to defeat it that is not going to happen in an in-game situation.
It's an OPENING like the FD in brood war where you expand while pressuring unless you feel confident that rallyed units will win you the game.
On September 02 2010 04:03 TheFinalWord wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2010 04:01 superbabosheki wrote:On September 02 2010 03:59 Yaotzin wrote: What toss doesn't get a robo in response to a 1-1-1 Terran? What does that have to do with anything? Raven nullifies the first obs, immortals are useless vs all 3 units that are being produced, and collosus is very costly only to get shot down by either ravens or vikings. How does the second push correspond to fast collosi? I would think that would be a problem wouldn't it? Fast collo as in a 1 gate colo rush? The initial poke will be pretty suspicious if only one gateways worth of units is defending it, and will have a good chance of outright winning. Not to mention there will be a very low gateway unit count, so banshees can target fire down the colli really quickly(they are pretty squishy units). Thermal lance won't be anywhere near done so microing the colli won't be easy as well.
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On September 02 2010 03:57 superbabosheki wrote: Why do people keep saying it is all-in.
Poor transitions. If the first push fails against someone competent you should lose.
As soon as you're two banshees pop out you have a PERFECT opportunity to expand if you choose to.
4gate can expand too, anything can. Expanding doesn't stop something being all-in.
Not to mention 3 rax and 1 fact marine/hellion are VERY LOW COST, and you can transition to maruders/tanks from there.
That part is pretty low cost, but the starports and banshees aren't. You HAVE to deal significant damage or you die, as with any all-in.
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On September 02 2010 04:07 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2010 03:57 superbabosheki wrote: Why do people keep saying it is all-in.
Poor transitions. If the first push fails against someone competent you should lose. Show nested quote + As soon as you're two banshees pop out you have a PERFECT opportunity to expand if you choose to.
4gate can expand too, anything can. Expanding doesn't stop something being all-in. Show nested quote + Not to mention 3 rax and 1 fact marine/hellion are VERY LOW COST, and you can transition to maruders/tanks from there.
That part is pretty low cost, but the starports and banshees aren't. You HAVE to deal significant damage or you die, as with any all-in. You do realize that you can just lift starports and begin medivac/marauder production? 4 gate expand isn't all-in if you contain your terran opponent at his ramp, in fact its a good strategy as long as toss doesn't over-commit to it.
This doesn't have to do significant damage at all if you put up a fast CC. Even if the push fails, not miserably since it will at the very least take out a large number of protoss units, P will want to stay in base and build stalker/observer in case of cloak banshees. One raven and 1-2 bunkers at the terrans natural will make it perfectly safe to move onto two base play.
Are you another platinum nooby or am I arguing with someone who at least knows what he's talking about? All-in means if it fails you lose, which is not the case when you are building a CC after first 2 banshees pop. I hope you don't think all the people on the asian player are all-in players, one base builds are very common and they transition just fine from them.
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this build will be EVEN with a 4gate. it wont pwn a 4gate at all.
but being even with a 4gate is definitely nice. also its awesome when a toss gets HT against banshee because it cuts down his stalker numbers and 1 banshee easily kills a stalker 1vs1 and with cloak you can drain the banshee energy constantly so feedback does no damage to your banshees
a terran army with banshee support just destroys a toss ground army
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Stop helping Terrans make my life harder. Kidding; pretty good guide.
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I'm curious on this build vs the kcdc FE build.
Hit me up for some test runs if you want.
Champ.499
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Been doing this since phase 2 beta, it's really a good build. If they open pheonix you can be in a bit of trouble (they'll outnumber your vikings for some time), and they have an opportunity to early expand if they do that. Fast storm will wreck this pretty bad, if you're still on one base when that happens.
As such, I've started opening 2 rax expand, to ~6 (still fiddling with this number) rax 4 starport. Either way, keeping your ravens alive is crucial to holding an advantage.
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On September 02 2010 04:36 muffley wrote: Been doing this since phase 2 beta, it's really a good build. If they open pheonix you can be in a bit of trouble (they'll outnumber your vikings for some time), and they have an opportunity to early expand if they do that. Fast storm will wreck this pretty bad, if you're still on one base when that happens.
As such, I've started opening 2 rax expand, to ~6 (still fiddling with this number) rax 4 starport. Either way, keeping your ravens alive is crucial to holding an advantage. Watch the newest replay I added, toss got super fast storm tech cross position on metalopolis. If you think he should skip a robo all together to rush for stom, I can just turtle in my base while researching cloak.
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IMO if you do a PvT FE and get enough stalkers to defend the terran is way way behind, so in that situation i would consider it an all in. You still will probably instantly win against toss 1base play because they wont have the AA to defeat the banshees T_T
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On September 02 2010 04:13 superbabosheki wrote: Are you another platinum nooby or am I arguing with someone who at least knows what he's talking about?
Was 850+ P before I switched to random and autolose every time I get T :D Not that such things matter imo.
All-in means if it fails you lose, which is not the case when you are building a CC after first 2 banshees pop.
I guess I just don't really see the point of an expanding/not fully committing version of this build. Banshee is strong because it counters the usual P army makeup. If you don't really commit to it though the P should hold it off even if caught by surprise with a poor army composition (first replay the guy has 3 immortals and still holds...). You can semi-recover with the expo, but you lose your best timing window (before templar tech is done), and you've dumped resources into, imo, dead-end tech (2 starports, cloak). P should go on to win from there.
Like any all-in strat you can moderate it, but then why start out with an all-in build? Or do you think banshee/rine is a strong army composition even if P knows it's coming?
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I watched some of your replays and i have yet to see you play a toss who was actually good, so im not really impressed. in the fast HT replay he wasted his gas on immortals and early HT tech, while floating 800 minerals... the dude was just awful. That floated money and gas wasted on his retarded tech could of been used on zealots, stalkers and sentires to deal with this.
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On September 02 2010 04:56 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2010 04:13 superbabosheki wrote: Are you another platinum nooby or am I arguing with someone who at least knows what he's talking about?
Was 850+ P before I switched to random and autolose every time I get T :D Not that such things matter imo. Show nested quote + All-in means if it fails you lose, which is not the case when you are building a CC after first 2 banshees pop.
I guess I just don't really see the point of an expanding/not fully committing version of this build. Banshee is strong because it counters the usual P army makeup. If you don't really commit to it though the P should hold it off even if caught by surprise with a poor army composition (first replay the guy has 3 immortals and still holds...). You can semi-recover with the expo, but you lose your best timing window (before templar tech is done), and you've dumped resources into, imo, dead-end tech (2 starports, cloak). P should go on to win from there. Like any all-in strat you can moderate it, but then why start out with an all-in build? Or do you think banshee/rine is a strong army composition even if P knows it's coming? Uh, dead tech? Nowhere in the build does it say to get cloak(though if there is no robo, getting it is good of course). Two starports are dead tech? Last I checked medivacs are very useful units toi have.
Stop theorycrafting that it's all-in, you're basically saying almost any strategy is all-in, transitioning is easy. Try out the strat yourself and you'll be amazed to see that you still have excess minerals when producing from all 6 structures. Once armies engage and you lose food, you will have enough for a CC since you can stop hellion/supply depot production while continuing to build banshees/marines if you choose so.
On September 02 2010 05:03 Gecko wrote: I watched some of your replays and i have yet to see you play a toss who was actually good, so im not really impressed. in the fast HT replay he wasted his gas on immortals and early HT tech, while floating 800 minerals... the dude was just awful. That floated money and gas wasted on his retarded tech could of been used on zealots, stalkers and sentires to deal with this. He's a 1.1k toss, he could probably trash you. The reason I know you have no clue what your talking about is because his strategy is smart, just a little sloppy in execution. He uses the quick warp prison to keep terran in base a bit, while expanding and eventually using high templars to defend the counter attack. My attack just hit maybe 30 seconds sooner then he would have wanted it to, and his multitasking was pretty bad but that's how its going to be for almost all non pro gamers.
All my replays are vs 850+ diamond tosses I think, and this is a strategy guide, which means I'm expecting lower, not higher level players to play around with it. No shit I'm not going to be playing top of the line pros, and that's not what this build is meant for.
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i honestly think banshees are the best thing for terran to get against toss
most toss will be going mostly for a ground based army. banshees cost for cost shred all stalkers because 2 stalkers is 250min 100gas, 1 banshee 2 marines is 250min 100gas and will decimate that protoss mix. if the toss gets HTs for storm who cares. cloaks best function is reducing banshee energy to avoid feedback damage
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On September 01 2010 15:07 superbabosheki wrote:
The first raven nullfies all stalkers, ...
Can you tell me why this is? Turrets? Sorry... help me out here.
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On September 02 2010 05:07 superbabosheki wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2010 05:03 Gecko wrote: I watched some of your replays and i have yet to see you play a toss who was actually good, so im not really impressed. in the fast HT replay he wasted his gas on immortals and early HT tech, while floating 800 minerals... the dude was just awful. That floated money and gas wasted on his retarded tech could of been used on zealots, stalkers and sentires to deal with this. He's a 1.1k toss, he could probably trash you. The reason I know you have no clue what your talking about is because his strategy is smart, just a little sloppy in execution. He uses the quick warp prison to keep terran in base a bit, while expanding and eventually using high templars to defend the counter attack. My attack just hit maybe 30 seconds sooner then he would have wanted it to, and his multitasking was pretty bad but that's how its going to be for almost all non pro gamers. All my replays are vs 850+ diamond tosses I think, and this is a strategy guide, which means I'm expecting lower, not higher level players to play around with it. No shit I'm not going to be playing top of the line pros, and that's not what this build is meant for.
Don't get so defensive, i was simply being blunt and stating that thing could of gone differently every game. Alot of those guys had a paltry force at the 8.5 minute mark when you pushed out and had bad unit compositions. And no, 1base HT+ immortals is a terrible, terrible idea. You cannot support that composition on one base. I don't see how pointing out flaws in your opponents gameplay makes me an idiot btw.
EDIT:
I guess what im trying to say is that If your testing this against people who are not very good at this game then you are getting skewed results. I never said this build you've created was not viable, just that it needed to be tested further. Please don't shit on me and call me an idiot for trying to give feedback. I never insulted you i just tried to pick apart your build and give feedback on what i thought. Why would anyone who is creating a build not want feedback lol, its what makes your build better in the long run.
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I saw the 2nd replay. Very strong build against protoss.
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On September 02 2010 05:20 bearpole wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 15:07 superbabosheki wrote:
The first raven nullfies all stalkers, ...
Can you tell me why this is? Turrets? Sorry... help me out here.
Ravens can make a point defense drone that negates stalker attacks for a short amount of timed. That way the banshees are defended from the stalkers while you kill them.
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Hi superbab. First of all, I am laughing with you at all these guys saying all-in or some of their comments clearly shows they don't know what theory is... Do they play sc or...? Prime example is right above me : + Show Spoiler +On September 02 2010 05:26 Gecko wrote: Don't get so defensive, i was simply being blunt and stating that thing could of gone differently every game. I guess what im trying to say is that If your testing this against people who are not very good at this game then you are getting skewed results. I never said this build you've created was not viable, just that it needed to be tested further. Please don't shit on me and call me an idiot for trying to give feedback. I never insulted you i just tried to pick apart your build and give feedback on what i thought. Why would anyone who is creating a build not want feedback lol, its what makes your build better in the long run. ???????????????????????
Anyway, I have been laddering with this build last night, and all morning .. with moderate success! And in custom games I even got away with this against zerg lol, 3 port FTW - but that's against noobs so
I'm only 800 points, so I have a question for you. Why do you not research cloak every match up? Is it not viable after 1k? The obs always goes down, yes even when he has a large army... I always end up with a surplus of gas anyway, unless I build a second Raven but that fucks things up, so I burn it off with research.
The cloak doesn't finish in time for the first attack, but if you attack and end up even, you have cloak now, you should win the second battle fairly easy, especially with cloak + pdd, you'll have a few free kills before you take any damage. I haven't lost because of cloak yet, so that is why I ask.
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On September 02 2010 06:26 Chunkybuddha wrote:Hi superbab. First of all, I am laughing with you at all these guys saying all-in or some of their comments clearly shows they don't know what theory is... Do they play sc or...? Prime example is right above me : + Show Spoiler +On September 02 2010 05:26 Gecko wrote: Don't get so defensive, i was simply being blunt and stating that thing could of gone differently every game. I guess what im trying to say is that If your testing this against people who are not very good at this game then you are getting skewed results. I never said this build you've created was not viable, just that it needed to be tested further. Please don't shit on me and call me an idiot for trying to give feedback. I never insulted you i just tried to pick apart your build and give feedback on what i thought. Why would anyone who is creating a build not want feedback lol, its what makes your build better in the long run. ??????????????????????? Anyway, I have been laddering with this build last night, and all morning .. with moderate success! And in custom games I even got away with this against zerg lol, 3 port FTW - but that's against noobs so I'm only 800 points, so I have a question for you. Why do you not research cloak every match up? Is it not viable after 1k? The obs always goes down, yes even when he has a large army... I always end up with a surplus of gas anyway, unless I build a second Raven but that fucks things up, so I burn it off with research. The cloak doesn't finish in time for the first attack, but if you attack and end up even, you have cloak now, you should win the second battle fairly easy, especially with cloak + pdd, you'll have a few free kills before you take any damage. I haven't lost because of cloak yet, so that is why I ask.
Cloak is more of an option that certainly is viable but 200/200 is quite an investment. I think cloak is actually really strong if you choose to expo rather than continue to pump units, since it will force protoss to stay in base even longer and pump out at least two more observers(100/200) to cover his main and natural.
It's a strong choice, and easily justified if you choose whether or not to get it.
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dont most toss just get a sentry to FF and block their ramp against your poke? thats been my experience in most of my high lvl diamond games.
i lose 1/2 my units and end up behind if i ever try to go up their ramp...
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I'm 700ish diamond, no beta, like 180 games total. Just tried it on scrap station first time no watching replays so timing was off.
Shat all over him. He had like 4 stalkers, 2-3 immortals, and 2 zeals vs 3 maruder 4-5 rhines 2 hellion and 2 banshee, cloak at end of battle
Got expo up and just kept pumping. Ungodly easy strat esp with no early abuse
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Can we get some sort of specific build order for this? Maybe put it on YABOT?
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As a protoss player, I must ask; what the hell am I supposed to do against this?
Unless I can get some early pressure on and force you to commit to getting more marauders before that damned raven+banshee come out, or perhaps snipe the raven (luck, or perhaps phoenixes early), it'll be very much a very bad uphill battle.
Any hints on BEATING this?
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Ah I knew I forgot something. It was the raven. My first attack wouldve been GG with 1 PDD. I love the strat.
BO? He says it in first post. its normal 9 supply 12 rax 13 gas 15 orbital marine maruder then fac when gas allows... he spells it out in the first post if you read it
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On September 02 2010 07:33 iAmJeffReY wrote: Ah I knew I forgot something. It was the raven. My first attack wouldve been GG with 1 PDD. I love the strat.
BO? He says it in first post. its normal 9 supply 12 rax 13 gas 15 orbital marine maruder then fac when gas allows... he spells it out in the first post if you read it
Um, he doesn't spell it out at all. He just gives general timings of what to build and when.
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it would be impossible to make a bo w/ numbers but it is rax, techlab fact, port, rax, rax, port, techlab. If you time it right second port will finish just as the first raven is about to. Techlab is built from rax and fact to be swapped. Second gas comes before fact. First replay times it decently if I remember correctly on my phone atm ;p
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just used this build, i was stuck at 1-3 platinum bumped me up to diamond after a couple games figuring it out. great against protoss so long as you micro the ravens
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On September 02 2010 05:03 Gecko wrote: I watched some of your replays and i have yet to see you play a toss who was actually good, so im not really impressed. in the fast HT replay he wasted his gas on immortals and early HT tech, while floating 800 minerals... the dude was just awful. That floated money and gas wasted on his retarded tech could of been used on zealots, stalkers and sentires to deal with this.
If you notice every possible question the OP is countered with there is a "THIS BUILD BEATS ALL!" response. So I wouldn't take anything he says seriously until the build is shown to be viable vs top tier competition. Classic case of a build being called good because it works on people who aren't that good.
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i like the idea of this build..
how would this fair against a 4 gate though? Protoss seam to overwhelm me with a crazy amount of units every time.
I know your have a raven, but it only stops 10 shots.. mass stalkers would get through that pretty quick.
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On September 02 2010 08:17 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2010 05:03 Gecko wrote: I watched some of your replays and i have yet to see you play a toss who was actually good, so im not really impressed. in the fast HT replay he wasted his gas on immortals and early HT tech, while floating 800 minerals... the dude was just awful. That floated money and gas wasted on his retarded tech could of been used on zealots, stalkers and sentires to deal with this. If you notice every possible question the OP is countered with there is a "THIS BUILD BEATS ALL!" response. So I wouldn't take anything he says seriously until the build is shown to be viable vs top tier competition. Classic case of a build being called good because it works on people who aren't that good. Or the fact that I get reponses that make no sense such as templar rushes. I already know that strong midfield or pheonix play is strong vs this build, and I stated it was a agressive way to scout and expand while attacking.
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On September 02 2010 08:17 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2010 05:03 Gecko wrote: I watched some of your replays and i have yet to see you play a toss who was actually good, so im not really impressed. in the fast HT replay he wasted his gas on immortals and early HT tech, while floating 800 minerals... the dude was just awful. That floated money and gas wasted on his retarded tech could of been used on zealots, stalkers and sentires to deal with this. If you notice every possible question the OP is countered with there is a "THIS BUILD BEATS ALL!" response. So I wouldn't take anything he says seriously until the build is shown to be viable vs top tier competition. Classic case of a build being called good because it works on people who aren't that good.
Are you serious? So because this build hasn't been proven against the cream of the crop, it isn't viable? Let me ask you this: how many players on b.net are top tier?
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Then how is this build's strength better than any build that allows you to early game harass and expand with minimal units? It seems as if a Protoss player gets scared by the initial force or can't micro decently then you win. If not then you somehow have a safe fallback that no Protoss can punish even after a fast expand?
I don't understand how this is possible. If you poke early, fail or the Protoss holds then your response is to tech all the way up to Ravens for a timing push with PDD and win. My issue is what is the Protoss player doing all of this time that they are not scouting or somehow has his army sitting in his nat? By scouting I mean little things like leaving a probe in your nat to see if you try to expand or push out, or constantly sending 1 Stalker to your wall to check your unit count. This is pretty much what I'm getting at because a decent Protoss player should be actively scouting you to at least know that after that failed push you are either going for a major timing push or a drop if they see no expansion. If it's a timing push the standard response is to DELAY the push and not let it get to your nat which is what the other poster said earlier about forcing the Raven to drop the PDD in an earlier engagement.
On September 02 2010 08:36 MeistR wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2010 08:17 Ace wrote:On September 02 2010 05:03 Gecko wrote: I watched some of your replays and i have yet to see you play a toss who was actually good, so im not really impressed. in the fast HT replay he wasted his gas on immortals and early HT tech, while floating 800 minerals... the dude was just awful. That floated money and gas wasted on his retarded tech could of been used on zealots, stalkers and sentires to deal with this. If you notice every possible question the OP is countered with there is a "THIS BUILD BEATS ALL!" response. So I wouldn't take anything he says seriously until the build is shown to be viable vs top tier competition. Classic case of a build being called good because it works on people who aren't that good. Are you serious? So because this build hasn't been proven against the cream of the crop, it isn't viable? Let me ask you this: how many players on b.net are top tier?
If the build beats players that aren't good that doesn't mean the build itself is good.
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On September 01 2010 21:51 Red Alert wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 21:48 gillon wrote: This sounds similar to the iEchoic's 1-1-2 build except this one seems way more allin. Doesn't even seem stronger. No harass opportunities either. the first attack IS the harass, dude. It's not all in at all. I dont see how this cant be considered all in, 6 buildings produced off 1 base for a huge attack with no expansion in mind?
Yeah its all in
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it seems like this build doesnt really use one of its buildings so really its producing with 5 buildings
producing with 5 buildings and expanding as terran is completely possible with mules. that seems about standard since toss can produce off 4 buildings and expand so terran gets an extra with mules
also i think the build makes that 6th building so he can have variety and pick which 5 of his buildings he wants to produce from and then when his expo comes up he can add on 3 more buildings and have 9 production buildings on two bases which is normal
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On September 02 2010 08:50 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 21:51 Red Alert wrote:On September 01 2010 21:48 gillon wrote: This sounds similar to the iEchoic's 1-1-2 build except this one seems way more allin. Doesn't even seem stronger. No harass opportunities either. the first attack IS the harass, dude. It's not all in at all. I dont see how this cant be considered all in, 6 buildings produced off 1 base for a huge attack with no expansion in mind? Yeah its all in He is only building marines out of 3 of his buildings... and a single hellion out of the fourth, every so often. The focus is clearly the banshees and raven, with marines for support. Banshees are huge fucking airplanes that kill everything on the ground, why not make it your main army????? I don't even attack the guys army with my hellions, I send them straight into his probes while I am attacking him with the rest.
Expansion is always in mind, what are you talking about? It's not like T has to keep sending units to p's base, lol... poop a bunker and turtle a little, you're expanding you need to. T will be able to afford a CC, AND stay alive, build it in base if you are still scared. You're not going to get outproduced if you are both 1-base, and as usual, they expand you expand sorta deal.... If toss continues 1 base and T is expanding, well, this is a judgment call, now isn't it?
I don't think you watched his replays. This is not all-in. If you watch the replay, you will see that there is no way this is all-in, by a loonnnngggg shot. If people actually watch the replays, they wouldn't say all-in, because they aren't fucking blind.
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On September 02 2010 09:03 roymarthyup wrote: it seems like this build doesnt really use one of its buildings so really its producing with 5 buildings
producing with 5 buildings and expanding as terran is completely possible with mules. that seems about standard since toss can produce off 4 buildings and expand so terran gets an extra with mules
Yeah, he said you can cut hellion and supply depot production after a push since the inevitable loss of units will give you excess supply.
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Just wanted to say thanks super for this amazing build. It is extremely well thought-out and capitalizes on income while countering just about anything a protoss can muster before the victory push. For example just had a toss try to DT rush me, raven popped right as they were entering my base. Made the push from 700-800 diamond extremely easy :D
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I'd like to repeat a question I had asked earlier and I don't believe was answered. When you lose with this build, why do you think you lose?
If you already answered this, I apologize, just quote your previous response please.
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To all you idiots who are saying this build is all in without qualifying their statements; builds like this are not inherently all in; it really depends on how you play them out. If you go read one of TLO's recent interviews about playing on the Korean server.. he even talks about how so many Koreans play very aggressive, almost all-in'ish builds, except that they actually know how to follow them up, unlike most of the players who do the same kinds of builds on the other servers.
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On September 02 2010 10:54 Acritter wrote: I'd like to repeat a question I had asked earlier and I don't believe was answered. When you lose with this build, why do you think you lose?
If you already answered this, I apologize, just quote your previous response please. I've only done the refined version on this build like 5 times and haven't lost yet(before that I've been messing around with it for 20 games but still won most of them, just really unrefined with sloppy timings), but I rarely ladder anyways. One of my cevo matches my opponent blind hard countered it by going two gate before core mass zealot + mass pheonix(he told me so afterwards that he did that blind x_x). I think the replay is on sc2replayed.com, search hyungbean vs negimpulse on steppes of war. I could have won that game or at least lived on if I didn't salvage my bunker 15 seconds before he attacked.
This build doesn't have too many holes to exploit or get "countered" by in standard builds from toss(3 gate robo, 2 gate stargate, 4 gate, etc.), if I do lose it would either be because my opponent is just much better than I am and took control of the game early on or I make a fatal micro mistake.
On September 02 2010 09:46 Chunkybuddha wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2010 08:50 arb wrote:On September 01 2010 21:51 Red Alert wrote:On September 01 2010 21:48 gillon wrote: This sounds similar to the iEchoic's 1-1-2 build except this one seems way more allin. Doesn't even seem stronger. No harass opportunities either. the first attack IS the harass, dude. It's not all in at all. I dont see how this cant be considered all in, 6 buildings produced off 1 base for a huge attack with no expansion in mind? Yeah its all in He is only building marines out of 3 of his buildings... and a single hellion out of the fourth, every so often. The focus is clearly the banshees and raven, with marines for support. Banshees are huge fucking airplanes that kill everything on the ground, why not make it your main army????? I don't even attack the guys army with my hellions, I send them straight into his probes while I am attacking him with the rest. Expansion is always in mind, what are you talking about? It's not like T has to keep sending units to p's base, lol... poop a bunker and turtle a little, you're expanding you need to. T will be able to afford a CC, AND stay alive, build it in base if you are still scared. You're not going to get outproduced if you are both 1-base, and as usual, they expand you expand sorta deal.... If toss continues 1 base and T is expanding, well, this is a judgment call, now isn't it? I don't think you watched his replays. This is not all-in. If you watch the replay, you will see that there is no way this is all-in, by a loonnnngggg shot. If people actually watch the replays, they wouldn't say all-in, because they aren't fucking blind. Perfectly said, if I do find time to TvP and use this build I'll try adding replays of the CC followup since all my games end too quickly due to the strong push or the fact that I know continuous rallying will win the game.
People just see "omg 6 structures ALLIN!!!!" when in reality marines/hellions are super cheap, and banshees take forever to build.
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Well because of you I just played against somebody who was trying your build !!
Replay :
I end up winning barely... Its a really though game... Even if i knew what he was doing. I went mass stalker into templar... that I made really late to keep the pressure...
He could easily have won if not from micro and not used to your build... Its gonna be really hard to counter that build
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On September 02 2010 13:07 Yokoblue wrote:Well because of you I just played against somebody who was trying your build !! Replay : I end up winning barely... Its a really though game... Even if i knew what he was doing. I went mass stalker into templar... that I made really late to keep the pressure... He could easily have won if not from micro and not used to your build... Its gonna be really hard to counter that build Judging from the replay he really butchered the hell out of it. -gas pretty late at 14, didn't put 3 in it until like 30 seconds after he completed refinery -poke was super duper late and uneeded at that point since he already killed off two stalkers -first attack was done way off timing as well probably due to the void ray harass though, marine count too low, pdd in a bad spot, and he let you fire at it uncontested
The weird thing is that despite all these errors he was still a command center and like 10 workers/food ahead of you, if he just defended a bit more smartly he could have won pretty easily.
Good to see people are trying it out :D
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only problem with this build is that senties > you trying to attack.
sure, you'll have banshees, but u will need quite a few to snipe all sentries ontop of stalkers attacking you, just sying, that first attack wont kill anyone who knows what they are doing.
but i do agree with the basic idea behind this, it is very strong. however i think 2/1/2 is better. you can just make a reactor off ur factory and airlift a rax to it, allows for a faster CC, as you'll be fine on gas
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On September 02 2010 13:31 PhiliBiRD wrote: only problem with this build is that senties > you trying to attack.
sure, you'll have banshees, but u will need quite a few to snipe all sentries ontop of stalkers attacking you, just sying, that first attack wont kill anyone who knows what they are doing.
but i do agree with the basic idea behind this, it is very strong. however i think 2/1/2 is better. you can just make a reactor off ur factory and airlift a rax to it, allows for a faster CC, as you'll be fine on gas
Wait what? What are sentries going to do please explain, they have god awful dps, die super fast, and if you have them forcefielding a ramp that is GOOD for terran since it means he gets a free PDD on the ramp and banshees take reign over it.
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Very interesting build, I'll definitely have to try this out.
1 Issue - If you're not getting Banshee cloak, how would this deal with HTs feedbacking your Raven/Banshees?
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To those doubting the viability of this build, TLO used this build against white ra in metalopolis. I have been using this build in a while and I love it.
So far, only time I've lost with this build is some early aggressive push by the p which I didn't scout.
What I love about this build is that it forces your opponent to get robo for obs just in case you get cloak which will not really help them against your push and if they skip robo, you can always drop 200/200 for cloak.
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On September 02 2010 15:07 onionchowder wrote: Very interesting build, I'll definitely have to try this out.
1 Issue - If you're not getting Banshee cloak, how would this deal with HTs feedbacking your Raven/Banshees? There will be no high templars, period. Until someone proves me wrong with a replay where they can rush it fast enough without dying in the process.
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The raven PDD is so strong, if the push gets to his door with PDD + banshee/marine/hellions its pretty much over.
For a protoss to best counter this is to engage the terran outside his base (to maximize his number of units for defense). Force the terran throw down the PDD, and then retreat and fight at another spot.
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Marine/banshee/hellion are all relatively bad vs stalkers. You're greatly delaying your cc to mass up quickly on your mule cash, it sounds pretty all-inish to me. Ravens do not magically turn off stalkers, all he has to do is pressure you with stalkers forcing you to drop the defense thing early or retreat (the former enabling him to safely retreat, negating your defense thing), or just shoot the damn thing. The defense things don't defend themselves. Two will defend eachother, but a single one can just be sniped with a single stalker volley. If p keeps up a good stalker count, I don't see that you'll be able to end game with this, and I feel like you'd be fairly behind going into midgame without having done any significant damage to p, since you've used up a lot of money in your main with mules.
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On September 02 2010 15:35 Nightmarjoo wrote: Marine/banshee/hellion are all relatively bad vs stalkers. You're greatly delaying your cc to mass up quickly on your mule cash, it sounds pretty all-inish to me. Ravens do not magically turn off stalkers, all he has to do is pressure you with stalkers forcing you to drop the defense thing early or retreat (the former enabling him to safely retreat, negating your defense thing), or just shoot the damn thing. The defense things don't defend themselves. Two will defend eachother, but a single one can just be sniped with a single stalker volley. If p keeps up a good stalker count, I don't see that you'll be able to end game with this, and I feel like you'd be fairly behind going into midgame without having done any significant damage to p, since you've used up a lot of money in your main with mules.
actually, if he expend he pretty much wins... Since he wont have done that much damage, but both army will be almost the same and he will have the expend advantage...
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On September 02 2010 15:35 Nightmarjoo wrote: Marine/banshee/hellion are all relatively bad vs stalkers. You're greatly delaying your cc to mass up quickly on your mule cash, it sounds pretty all-inish to me. Ravens do not magically turn off stalkers, all he has to do is pressure you with stalkers forcing you to drop the defense thing early or retreat (the former enabling him to safely retreat, negating your defense thing), or just shoot the damn thing. The defense things don't defend themselves. Two will defend eachother, but a single one can just be sniped with a single stalker volley. If p keeps up a good stalker count, I don't see that you'll be able to end game with this, and I feel like you'd be fairly behind going into midgame without having done any significant damage to p, since you've used up a lot of money in your main with mules. PDD doesn't defend itself? That's something I never knew before :X
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On September 02 2010 08:41 Ace wrote:Then how is this build's strength better than any build that allows you to early game harass and expand with minimal units? It seems as if a Protoss player gets scared by the initial force or can't micro decently then you win. If not then you somehow have a safe fallback that no Protoss can punish even after a fast expand? I don't understand how this is possible. If you poke early, fail or the Protoss holds then your response is to tech all the way up to Ravens for a timing push with PDD and win. My issue is what is the Protoss player doing all of this time that they are not scouting or somehow has his army sitting in his nat? By scouting I mean little things like leaving a probe in your nat to see if you try to expand or push out, or constantly sending 1 Stalker to your wall to check your unit count. This is pretty much what I'm getting at because a decent Protoss player should be actively scouting you to at least know that after that failed push you are either going for a major timing push or a drop if they see no expansion. If it's a timing push the standard response is to DELAY the push and not let it get to your nat which is what the other poster said earlier about forcing the Raven to drop the PDD in an earlier engagement. Show nested quote +On September 02 2010 08:36 MeistR wrote:On September 02 2010 08:17 Ace wrote:On September 02 2010 05:03 Gecko wrote: I watched some of your replays and i have yet to see you play a toss who was actually good, so im not really impressed. in the fast HT replay he wasted his gas on immortals and early HT tech, while floating 800 minerals... the dude was just awful. That floated money and gas wasted on his retarded tech could of been used on zealots, stalkers and sentires to deal with this. If you notice every possible question the OP is countered with there is a "THIS BUILD BEATS ALL!" response. So I wouldn't take anything he says seriously until the build is shown to be viable vs top tier competition. Classic case of a build being called good because it works on people who aren't that good. Are you serious? So because this build hasn't been proven against the cream of the crop, it isn't viable? Let me ask you this: how many players on b.net are top tier? If the build beats players that aren't good that doesn't mean the build itself is good.
Hmm from the replay I watched (Xel naga cavern) it looked like he was pushing into the P base with the 3 marauders, 1 marine and hellion, and still had room to make that raven, while the early game poke was going on. So I wouldn't say just because hes getting out a raven hes gonna be in any real threat of losing in the early game.
However I completely agree with the idea of, if you see the terran going for this, just force the PDD away from you're vital areas such as you're Nat or ramp. The PDD is the real meat of this build and the best way to counter this is to just engage the terran army away from you're base.
This is why im really favoring IEholics 1/1/2 build with the three hellion drop,it forces the protoss to stay in his base. Its essentially the same strat, you're pushing with marine/banshee/raven, but you're doing economic harrass with the hellions+dropship, and at the same time keeping the protoss in his base.
Edit. However to be fair the sheer number of units you pump out of all 6 buildings of 1 base is pretty insane. I still need to try out this strat, but I would probably favor getting a expansion a little earlier then continuing to rally units after the first push.
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The problem with engaging the terran army beforehand is that marauder eat almost all gateway unit. You want to stay in your base to FF the ramp... If you engage, you might lose quite a lot if he got concusive shell upgrades. 1-2 stalker less and maybe you're done...
Its just my 2 cents
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On September 02 2010 15:35 Nightmarjoo wrote:The defense things don't defend themselves. Two will defend eachother, but a single one can just be sniped with a single stalker volley.. Are you sure? I don't recall this.... testing now.
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On September 02 2010 16:00 Yokoblue wrote: The problem with engaging the terran army beforehand is that marauder eat almost all gateway unit. You want to stay in your base to FF the ramp... If you engage, you might lose quite a lot if he got concusive shell upgrades. 1-2 stalker less and maybe you're done...
Its just my 2 cents
Im pretty sure hes stopping any marauder production after the first initial push.
Marine/Banshee/Raven is a lot more lean because marines are so versatile, they cover any type of stargate opening that the toss could potentially go for.
Marauder/Banshee/Raven (Im pretty sure you can't even support this off 2 gas but w/e) Any stargate opening will destroy it even if it is possible.
Maybe keep 1 or 2 marauder in ur army just for conc shells, but still that delays you're initial push and the whole point of this is to push before you're opponent gets a critical mass of stalkers to burn through you're PDD's energy, the sooner the push the more effective it will be.
And from my experience with this, If you try to FF you're ramp to prevent the marines from breaking in, I would just PDD the ramp, snipe the sentries with my 4 banshees and and just move on in with my force.
Maaaaybe Phoenix/Zealot/Sentry? just guessing but Phoenix openings in general are strong against any raven/banshee push, and zealots with proper FF will slice through marines. (again just guessing)
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Very robust build! I wish I could write a lot more in depth, but everything I've wanted to say has been said already. Kudos, sir.
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On September 02 2010 16:15 Edso wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2010 16:00 Yokoblue wrote: The problem with engaging the terran army beforehand is that marauder eat almost all gateway unit. You want to stay in your base to FF the ramp... If you engage, you might lose quite a lot if he got concusive shell upgrades. 1-2 stalker less and maybe you're done...
Its just my 2 cents
Im pretty sure hes stopping any marauder production after the first initial push. Marine/Banshee/Raven is a lot more lean because marines are so versatile, they cover any type of stargate opening that the toss could potentially go for. Marauder/Banshee/Raven (Im pretty sure you can't even support this off 2 gas but w/e) Any stargate opening will destroy it even if it is possible. Maybe keep 1 or 2 marauder in ur army just for conc shells, but still that delays you're initial push and the whole point of this is to push before you're opponent gets a critical mass of stalkers to burn through you're PDD's energy, the sooner the push the more effective it will be. And from my experience with this, If you try to FF you're ramp to prevent the marines from breaking in, I would just PDD the ramp, snipe the sentries with my 4 banshees and and just move on in with my force. Maaaaybe Phoenix/Zealot/Sentry? just guessing but Phoenix openings in general are strong against any raven/banshee push, and zealots with proper FF will slice through marines. (again just guessing)
Problem is that the protoss dont know what unit hes doing... He just pushed with 3 marauder and 1 marine... the P will obvioustly expect more marauder ! I know... im P !
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To everyone that's saying that mid-field play is somehow strong against this build... it's not.
Banshees will rape your probe line.
You can harass with banshees, which will pretty much give your marine/raven a free path towards your opponent's base.
still... I think zealot/sentry/stalker would be able to defend that push, the question is can you expand, and still defend it, and can you scout it in time to prepare.
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I've been playing this a lot and this build is insane in 2v2. Most people go for a cheese or some timing push with tier 1.5 units. Mostly its marauders/stalkers/roaches and they get raped by the pdd and banshees. The amount of units u can produce from those 6 buildings... wow! Once i get an expansion i just add on a dual layer of the same buildings or tech to BCs. PDD and BCs are not to be messed with.
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I've been experimenting with variations on the 3 rax 2 starport frontal attack and more often than not protoss just scouts the 2 starports with an observer, masses stalkers while expanding, and holds it off (a couple of sentries to mess with the marines are enough, no psi storm needed)
The key to defending using ground units seems to be just having a lot more stalkers than normal, 50% stalkers can be beaten with 1 PDD or sacrificing marines to focus fire the stalkers, but these tactics don't work if protoss has 80% stalkers
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A good PDD over ramp is really the nail in the coffin for the P. did this several times yesterday and it worked like a charm. Get slowing upgrade for the poke also! It takes ~15 seconds more and delays the raven another 15s but is enough to kill 5-6 zeals + stalker + some probes with luck + micro.
This is not an all in I assure you. I have 300+ minerals when I push even though I produce constantly from all 6 buildings. I don't scan at all because of the poke.
I start building CC BEFORE the push reaches the enemy. In my opinion this is actually a proof of T being OP. You can outproduce P from one base with a good margin.
I've been trying to think of a good P counter. Phoenix and mass speedlot on open ground might work... NEVER defend in a choke (PDD)
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Replays plox. Also im glad im not protoss atm!
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On September 02 2010 19:25 Cerion wrote: I've been experimenting with variations on the 3 rax 2 starport frontal attack and more often than not protoss just scouts the 2 starports with an observer, masses stalkers while expanding, and holds it off (a couple of sentries to mess with the marines are enough, no psi storm needed)
The key to defending using ground units seems to be just having a lot more stalkers than normal, 50% stalkers can be beaten with 1 PDD or sacrificing marines to focus fire the stalkers, but these tactics don't work if protoss has 80% stalkers
P doesn't have any observers in your base until it's too late. if he goes 1-gate robo he must have godly micro to kill your poke, continue probe produciton and get more gates up.
I really don't see how P can expand. the poke would kill him for FE and the push would kill him otherwise. This build is about outproducing the P. T will have A LOT MORE resources in army. if P expands it will only get worse since there is no time to saturate two expansions for the push (might not even saturate one).
Mule-nerf incoming.
EDIT: Just thought of this: What happens with the poke if P has a single PC + few units at ramp? I haven't encountered this yet...
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i like the 7 marine, 2 helion "poke" better.
you can decide to either add a medivac or banshees for the second one. or even the first, if you time it well
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Just tried this for the first time, worked like a charm against a 1000 point diamond toss player.
Map was desert oasis, which probably isnt that optimal for this build. My "poke" didnt do much, but saw that he was going for fast expo. With the first banshee push I managed to cripple him. Had 2 banshees queued up which I sent straight at his probes in main, his only stalkers were tied up fighting my main army and the game was pretty much over after that.
Overall a good build and a nice change from the usual marauderfest. 4-5 banshees with 20 marines truly have amazing DPS. Ravens are also a very fun unit, love to find some good use for them.
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On September 02 2010 16:00 Yokoblue wrote: The problem with engaging the terran army beforehand is that marauder eat almost all gateway unit. You want to stay in your base to FF the ramp... If you engage, you might lose quite a lot if he got concusive shell upgrades. 1-2 stalker less and maybe you're done...
Its just my 2 cents
Just get blink if you don't know what the Terran is doing. Since that is pretty much every game, I get blink before leg speed almost every PvT I play, since I just don't know what the hell Terran players are up to. The concussive shell problem is solved immediately (although it won't be ready for the first "poke". The fastest I can REASONABLY get blink is around the 6ish minute mark). You can play right up on the Terran's front door if you have blink after that initial push. He can't chase or snipe units at all if he is going heavy marauder given you have appropriate reaction times. Stalkers w/ blink are really effective against heavy marauder or 3rax builds. When he is moving out, you can blink on top of his base and wreak havoc. Once he starts chasing you back in his base you can FF his ramp with a sentry and harass his expansion if he has one. It really holes up Terran players until they have medivacs.
Against this 3/1/2 build, Stalkers with blink forces it to make a transition, to you know, something that kills stalkers. The fact that the raven can't get a positional pdd off means that hellions and marines are not very effective. Although the T should cut hellion production if he sees a lot of stalkers on the field. The only real threat is the banshees, but you're gonna need ~4-5 to cause problems for stalkers. At that point, protoss should either have feedback or a few phoenix, and with some decent control, should be able to hold off adequately.
It's really hard to completely shutdown this build just from the volume of troops T is making, but it isn't too difficult to defend a timing push.
Honestly, I wish people would stop making stalkers without blink. A good portion of protoss players haven't even experimented with the ability. If they do get it, they forget they have it and never use it, or use it once or twice during an entire game. Blink is like a stalker's stim, only better. I don't think Terran really has a HARD counter to early game blinking stalkers. They have a lot of soft-counters that depend on unit control and individual awareness. But as far as I'm concerned, I can open with blink stalkers every game and not be at risk against anything the Terran throws at me. That is how I open about 90% of my PvT's.
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no it is not
Morrow has 4 banshees and way less ground forces His micro in the battle is abysmal. Basically the stalkers of WhiteLoad get free shots on the banshees while the marines retardedly try to walk through the FF. Read the post, the discussion and compare the replays. Mass stalker is BS against this build.
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On September 02 2010 22:28 junemermaid wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2010 16:00 Yokoblue wrote: The problem with engaging the terran army beforehand is that marauder eat almost all gateway unit. You want to stay in your base to FF the ramp... If you engage, you might lose quite a lot if he got concusive shell upgrades. 1-2 stalker less and maybe you're done...
Its just my 2 cents
Just get blink if you don't know what the Terran is doing. Since that is pretty much every game, I get blink before leg speed almost every PvT I play, since I just don't know what the hell Terran players are up to. The concussive shell problem is solved immediately (although it won't be ready for the first "poke". The fastest I can REASONABLY get blink is around the 6ish minute mark). You can play right up on the Terran's front door if you have blink after that initial push. He can't chase or snipe units at all if he is going heavy marauder given you have appropriate reaction times. Stalkers w/ blink are really effective against heavy marauder or 3rax builds. When he is moving out, you can blink on top of his base and wreak havoc. Once he starts chasing you back in his base you can FF his ramp with a sentry and harass his expansion if he has one. It really holes up Terran players until they have medivacs. Against this 3/1/2 build, Stalkers with blink forces it to make a transition, to you know, something that kills stalkers. The fact that the raven can't get a positional pdd off means that hellions and marines are not very effective. Although the T should cut hellion production if he sees a lot of stalkers on the field. The only real threat is the banshees, but you're gonna need ~4-5 to cause problems for stalkers. At that point, protoss should either have feedback or a few phoenix, and with some decent control, should be able to hold off adequately. It's really hard to completely shutdown this build just from the volume of troops T is making, but it isn't too difficult to defend a timing push. Honestly, I wish people would stop making stalkers without blink. A good portion of protoss players haven't even experimented with the ability. If they do get it, they forget they have it and never use it, or use it once or twice during an entire game. Blink is like a stalker's stim, only better. I don't think Terran really has a HARD counter to early game blinking stalkers. They have a lot of soft-counters that depend on unit control and individual awareness. But as far as I'm concerned, I can open with blink stalkers every game and not be at risk against anything the Terran throws at me. That is how I open about 90% of my PvT's.
your experience with blink is quite interesting. I didnt use it at all against T because I dont like to go stalker heavy against marauders.
thats why I get charge allways. I think a good amount of chargelots+ stalkers can shut down the attack in the OP (its not a push btw. its a simple attack or timing attack).
the harass in the beginning is also not a problem. against attacks like this P can even early expand. go stalker heavy off one chronoboosted gate (a few zealots to tank marauder fire) and expand. I defended all kinds of reaper+marauder+bunker attacks and marauder cheeses with it while expanding. T is very, very weak against P early game IMO.
In practice I dont see what damage T can do with this attack against chargelots. I also saw the reps of ra fighting against it with blink vs morrow. the banshees are scary for sure. but if you defend this and get HTs/phoenix eventually then T has to get ghosts asap.
I fear any bio+ghost composition 10times more than this. this catches people off guard for sure, but it isnt strong itself IMO. yes ghosts vs P comes down to micro and positioning but its way more flexible and strategically defends all kinds of compositions P has.
so may I ask if the OP played with this against a chargelot heavy build?
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I wouldn't say transitioning away from Banshees into Viking counts as "defeating Void Rays and Phoenix." Marine/Viking/Raven isn't especially strong, and the Vikings are more of a soft counter than a hard counter.
But in general this seems like typical Terran BS... though honestly Protoss players seem like 10 steps behind other races in terms of strategic development so this perspective might just be due to limited by that. I think picking up early Air Armour (lol, why is it more expensive...) might also be a great help since Marine support fire is what really cuts into Protoss air strategies. Air upgrade is also a place where Protoss can easily out-pace Terrans because Core is required compared to Armory, and Armory costs gas and Core doesn't. So you should inherently be ahead with them.
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On September 03 2010 00:40 clickrush wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2010 22:28 junemermaid wrote:On September 02 2010 16:00 Yokoblue wrote: The problem with engaging the terran army beforehand is that marauder eat almost all gateway unit. You want to stay in your base to FF the ramp... If you engage, you might lose quite a lot if he got concusive shell upgrades. 1-2 stalker less and maybe you're done...
Its just my 2 cents
Just get blink if you don't know what the Terran is doing. Since that is pretty much every game, I get blink before leg speed almost every PvT I play, since I just don't know what the hell Terran players are up to. The concussive shell problem is solved immediately (although it won't be ready for the first "poke". The fastest I can REASONABLY get blink is around the 6ish minute mark). You can play right up on the Terran's front door if you have blink after that initial push. He can't chase or snipe units at all if he is going heavy marauder given you have appropriate reaction times. Stalkers w/ blink are really effective against heavy marauder or 3rax builds. When he is moving out, you can blink on top of his base and wreak havoc. Once he starts chasing you back in his base you can FF his ramp with a sentry and harass his expansion if he has one. It really holes up Terran players until they have medivacs. Against this 3/1/2 build, Stalkers with blink forces it to make a transition, to you know, something that kills stalkers. The fact that the raven can't get a positional pdd off means that hellions and marines are not very effective. Although the T should cut hellion production if he sees a lot of stalkers on the field. The only real threat is the banshees, but you're gonna need ~4-5 to cause problems for stalkers. At that point, protoss should either have feedback or a few phoenix, and with some decent control, should be able to hold off adequately. It's really hard to completely shutdown this build just from the volume of troops T is making, but it isn't too difficult to defend a timing push. Honestly, I wish people would stop making stalkers without blink. A good portion of protoss players haven't even experimented with the ability. If they do get it, they forget they have it and never use it, or use it once or twice during an entire game. Blink is like a stalker's stim, only better. I don't think Terran really has a HARD counter to early game blinking stalkers. They have a lot of soft-counters that depend on unit control and individual awareness. But as far as I'm concerned, I can open with blink stalkers every game and not be at risk against anything the Terran throws at me. That is how I open about 90% of my PvT's. your experience with blink is quite interesting. I didnt use it at all against T because I dont like to go stalker heavy against marauders. thats why I get charge allways. I think a good amount of chargelots+ stalkers can shut down the attack in the OP (its not a push btw. its a simple attack or timing attack). the harass in the beginning is also not a problem. against attacks like this P can even early expand. go stalker heavy off one chronoboosted gate (a few zealots to tank marauder fire) and expand. I defended all kinds of reaper+marauder+bunker attacks and marauder cheeses with it while expanding. T is very, very weak against P early game IMO. In practice I dont see what damage T can do with this attack against chargelots. I also saw the reps of ra fighting against it with blink vs morrow. the banshees are scary for sure. but if you defend this and get HTs/phoenix eventually then T has to get ghosts asap. I fear any bio+ghost composition 10times more than this. this catches people off guard for sure, but it isnt strong itself IMO. yes ghosts vs P comes down to micro and positioning but its way more flexible and strategically defends all kinds of compositions P has. so may I ask if the OP played with this against a chargelot heavy build?
What the heck are Chargelots going to do against Banshees?
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they gonna tank everyshot from all the other unit so you can focus fire the banshee
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Thank for this build. I like this one base strategy with production on six building, sound effective.
I didn't check each replay carefully but in the first one (Xelnaga Caerne) at the time you are pushing with your two banshee and 'rines you are already accumulating way too much gas, which sound weird when talking about a Banshee based strategy. When you're engaging you've around 800gas excess, that make me think their is a way to better use the unit combination for the second push.
So let's think about a way to improve the building order by consuming more gas. Would the answer be a ghost academy along with a Tech lab? This being created after the starports, will be an extra 200min 75gas resources in buildings, this probably mean sacrificing one hellion for the push with banshee and two 'rine. Then the ghost will consume an other hellion + marine in the push. Will the ghost with is EMP be as important as two hellion and 3 marines? Probably not at the time of the push with banshee, but it might be more effective if the second push is not finishing him as a ghost will only replace an hellion and a 'rine. You will also be ready when his high templar will pop out.
What do you think?
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i greatly like this build idea. gonna try it out.
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On September 03 2010 00:46 Yokoblue wrote: they gonna tank everyshot from all the other unit so you can focus fire the banshee
With what? PDD + Banshee can take out low Stalker numbers easily. Heck, Banshees can take on Stalkers fine on their own. Stalkers have more HP, but Banshees out DPS them.
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On September 03 2010 00:43 whateversclever wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 00:40 clickrush wrote:On September 02 2010 22:28 junemermaid wrote:On September 02 2010 16:00 Yokoblue wrote: The problem with engaging the terran army beforehand is that marauder eat almost all gateway unit. You want to stay in your base to FF the ramp... If you engage, you might lose quite a lot if he got concusive shell upgrades. 1-2 stalker less and maybe you're done...
Its just my 2 cents
Just get blink if you don't know what the Terran is doing. Since that is pretty much every game, I get blink before leg speed almost every PvT I play, since I just don't know what the hell Terran players are up to. The concussive shell problem is solved immediately (although it won't be ready for the first "poke". The fastest I can REASONABLY get blink is around the 6ish minute mark). You can play right up on the Terran's front door if you have blink after that initial push. He can't chase or snipe units at all if he is going heavy marauder given you have appropriate reaction times. Stalkers w/ blink are really effective against heavy marauder or 3rax builds. When he is moving out, you can blink on top of his base and wreak havoc. Once he starts chasing you back in his base you can FF his ramp with a sentry and harass his expansion if he has one. It really holes up Terran players until they have medivacs. Against this 3/1/2 build, Stalkers with blink forces it to make a transition, to you know, something that kills stalkers. The fact that the raven can't get a positional pdd off means that hellions and marines are not very effective. Although the T should cut hellion production if he sees a lot of stalkers on the field. The only real threat is the banshees, but you're gonna need ~4-5 to cause problems for stalkers. At that point, protoss should either have feedback or a few phoenix, and with some decent control, should be able to hold off adequately. It's really hard to completely shutdown this build just from the volume of troops T is making, but it isn't too difficult to defend a timing push. Honestly, I wish people would stop making stalkers without blink. A good portion of protoss players haven't even experimented with the ability. If they do get it, they forget they have it and never use it, or use it once or twice during an entire game. Blink is like a stalker's stim, only better. I don't think Terran really has a HARD counter to early game blinking stalkers. They have a lot of soft-counters that depend on unit control and individual awareness. But as far as I'm concerned, I can open with blink stalkers every game and not be at risk against anything the Terran throws at me. That is how I open about 90% of my PvT's. your experience with blink is quite interesting. I didnt use it at all against T because I dont like to go stalker heavy against marauders. thats why I get charge allways. I think a good amount of chargelots+ stalkers can shut down the attack in the OP (its not a push btw. its a simple attack or timing attack). the harass in the beginning is also not a problem. against attacks like this P can even early expand. go stalker heavy off one chronoboosted gate (a few zealots to tank marauder fire) and expand. I defended all kinds of reaper+marauder+bunker attacks and marauder cheeses with it while expanding. T is very, very weak against P early game IMO. In practice I dont see what damage T can do with this attack against chargelots. I also saw the reps of ra fighting against it with blink vs morrow. the banshees are scary for sure. but if you defend this and get HTs/phoenix eventually then T has to get ghosts asap. I fear any bio+ghost composition 10times more than this. this catches people off guard for sure, but it isnt strong itself IMO. yes ghosts vs P comes down to micro and positioning but its way more flexible and strategically defends all kinds of compositions P has. so may I ask if the OP played with this against a chargelot heavy build? What the heck are Chargelots going to do against Banshees?
did you read the OP? he attacks with a couple banshees, a raven and lots of marines. chargelots tank all the banshee and marine fire while destroying the marines. with a smaller stalker amount the PDD will ofc save the banshees for quite a while but the main army consinsts of marines. this attack better does a shitload of damage if P is early expanding.
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A PDD will defend itself. It just seems like there's a limit to show many shots it can shoot down per second.
About 1-6 Stalkers firing at it will pretty much never get a shot through.
About 10 Stalkers can pretty much instagib it if they all fire together.
That's the trick. If everything fires together, the PDD can't catch all of the shots. If they keep firing in some random pattern it'll stop it every single time. Even 11 Stalkers can't get a shot through until it runs out of energy if you send them to attack the thing.
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I actually combined part of this build with iEchoic's 1/1/2 build in a match early this morning. Started off with the 3/1/2 and did the poke. Killed two zealots and wounded his stalkers. He retreated but kept his army at his choke so instead of another frontal push I did a 3 hellion drop and killed 6 probes. He tried to counter-push after that but ran into my MM ball, a bunker and 4-5 banshees on my choke.
He managed to kill most of my bio ball but I still had 4 Marauders and nearly all my Banshees. I pushed right back with those Banshees and Marauders while pumping more MM, a Raven and a Banshee and lifting off my newly built CC in order to expand.
Didn't even get to pull SCV's and send them to the new CC as his blink stalkers died quite quickly to my Banshees and Marauders. If I had gotten a Raven out earlier (which I will do next time) his push would have done far less damage making it an even easier win.
If I was Protoss right now I'd be very scared of a fully functional combination of 1/1/2 and 3/1/2 because I just don't see how it can be countered at the moment. Early poke, followed by Hellion drop, followed by MM/Raven/Banshee ball. Scary...
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On September 03 2010 00:55 clickrush wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 00:43 whateversclever wrote:On September 03 2010 00:40 clickrush wrote:On September 02 2010 22:28 junemermaid wrote:On September 02 2010 16:00 Yokoblue wrote: The problem with engaging the terran army beforehand is that marauder eat almost all gateway unit. You want to stay in your base to FF the ramp... If you engage, you might lose quite a lot if he got concusive shell upgrades. 1-2 stalker less and maybe you're done...
Its just my 2 cents
Just get blink if you don't know what the Terran is doing. Since that is pretty much every game, I get blink before leg speed almost every PvT I play, since I just don't know what the hell Terran players are up to. The concussive shell problem is solved immediately (although it won't be ready for the first "poke". The fastest I can REASONABLY get blink is around the 6ish minute mark). You can play right up on the Terran's front door if you have blink after that initial push. He can't chase or snipe units at all if he is going heavy marauder given you have appropriate reaction times. Stalkers w/ blink are really effective against heavy marauder or 3rax builds. When he is moving out, you can blink on top of his base and wreak havoc. Once he starts chasing you back in his base you can FF his ramp with a sentry and harass his expansion if he has one. It really holes up Terran players until they have medivacs. Against this 3/1/2 build, Stalkers with blink forces it to make a transition, to you know, something that kills stalkers. The fact that the raven can't get a positional pdd off means that hellions and marines are not very effective. Although the T should cut hellion production if he sees a lot of stalkers on the field. The only real threat is the banshees, but you're gonna need ~4-5 to cause problems for stalkers. At that point, protoss should either have feedback or a few phoenix, and with some decent control, should be able to hold off adequately. It's really hard to completely shutdown this build just from the volume of troops T is making, but it isn't too difficult to defend a timing push. Honestly, I wish people would stop making stalkers without blink. A good portion of protoss players haven't even experimented with the ability. If they do get it, they forget they have it and never use it, or use it once or twice during an entire game. Blink is like a stalker's stim, only better. I don't think Terran really has a HARD counter to early game blinking stalkers. They have a lot of soft-counters that depend on unit control and individual awareness. But as far as I'm concerned, I can open with blink stalkers every game and not be at risk against anything the Terran throws at me. That is how I open about 90% of my PvT's. your experience with blink is quite interesting. I didnt use it at all against T because I dont like to go stalker heavy against marauders. thats why I get charge allways. I think a good amount of chargelots+ stalkers can shut down the attack in the OP (its not a push btw. its a simple attack or timing attack). the harass in the beginning is also not a problem. against attacks like this P can even early expand. go stalker heavy off one chronoboosted gate (a few zealots to tank marauder fire) and expand. I defended all kinds of reaper+marauder+bunker attacks and marauder cheeses with it while expanding. T is very, very weak against P early game IMO. In practice I dont see what damage T can do with this attack against chargelots. I also saw the reps of ra fighting against it with blink vs morrow. the banshees are scary for sure. but if you defend this and get HTs/phoenix eventually then T has to get ghosts asap. I fear any bio+ghost composition 10times more than this. this catches people off guard for sure, but it isnt strong itself IMO. yes ghosts vs P comes down to micro and positioning but its way more flexible and strategically defends all kinds of compositions P has. so may I ask if the OP played with this against a chargelot heavy build? What the heck are Chargelots going to do against Banshees? did you read the OP? he attacks with a couple banshees, a raven and lots of marines. chargelots tank all the banshee and marine fire while destroying the marines. with a smaller stalker amount the PDD will ofc save the banshees for quite a while but the main army consinsts of marines. this attack better does a shitload of damage if P is early expanding.
How exactly are you going to "tank Banshees with Zealots"? Is there some taunt function to the Zealot that I'm unaware of? Once the Stalkers are dead, who cares what happens to the Marines? You're not going to slaughter those Marines so badly that your Zealots will be anything other than dead if you don't take those Banshees out.
It's totally in Terran's favor. Protoss CAN'T just magically make Banshees try to shoot Zealots. But Banshees can force Stalkers to come after them, by making a b-line for the minerals. You don't even need to send in the Marines. The only reason why you build Marines is to defend against air and mass Stalkers. You could just leave them in your base if you want.
Oh and you're expanding with your Zealot army to defend? Say hello to every probe you own dying.
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On September 01 2010 15:07 superbabosheki wrote:
First Poke The first "poke" comes in the early game. This is very similar to the 1 marine, two marauder, 1 reaper play, however this consists of 1 marine, 3 marauders, and 1 hellion at around the exact same timing.
This simple poke in with 5 units can end the game many times vs a greedy protoss, but it will at the very least let you know exactly what you're opponent is up to(by seeing what he is defending with). Watch replay or try it yourself to see just how effective it can be.
Yeah, tried this last night and he had 2 stalkers, 1 zealot and 1 sentry on his ramp. WTFPWND my 5 guys (1 hellion, 3 rauders, 1 marine) and basically marched into my base and destroyed me.
Then again, I'm not very good, but I thought I followed the early build pretty strictly...
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On September 03 2010 02:38 bearpole wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 15:07 superbabosheki wrote:
First Poke The first "poke" comes in the early game. This is very similar to the 1 marine, two marauder, 1 reaper play, however this consists of 1 marine, 3 marauders, and 1 hellion at around the exact same timing.
This simple poke in with 5 units can end the game many times vs a greedy protoss, but it will at the very least let you know exactly what you're opponent is up to(by seeing what he is defending with). Watch replay or try it yourself to see just how effective it can be.
Yeah, tried this last night and he had 2 stalkers, 1 zealot and 1 sentry on his ramp. WTFPWND my 5 guys (1 hellion, 3 rauders, 1 marine) and basically marched into my base and destroyed me. Then again, I'm not very good, but I thought I followed the early build pretty strictly... If those were the exact army compositions, you certainly should not be getting WTFPWND.
In early game skirmishes with few units like this, you need to micro heavily.
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On September 01 2010 17:01 superbabosheki wrote: [ It is impossible to get to storm without dying to the 1 raven 2 banshee push, plus what kind of protoss would blindly rush for templar(which would mean no robo). So if I did scout a P rushing for psi storm I would do a barrel roll.
if you get pushed with an MM group early I might expect another early push and go for citadel to get charge and then just throw down the temp archives. Feedback on the raven and the banshees would really ruin your push.
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i really like this build. posting so i can come back and review the replays when i get out of work! :D
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On September 03 2010 02:38 bearpole wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 15:07 superbabosheki wrote:
First Poke The first "poke" comes in the early game. This is very similar to the 1 marine, two marauder, 1 reaper play, however this consists of 1 marine, 3 marauders, and 1 hellion at around the exact same timing.
This simple poke in with 5 units can end the game many times vs a greedy protoss, but it will at the very least let you know exactly what you're opponent is up to(by seeing what he is defending with). Watch replay or try it yourself to see just how effective it can be.
Yeah, tried this last night and he had 2 stalkers, 1 zealot and 1 sentry on his ramp. WTFPWND my 5 guys (1 hellion, 3 rauders, 1 marine) and basically marched into my base and destroyed me. Then again, I'm not very good, but I thought I followed the early build pretty strictly...
As has been said, with low unit number, micro is key. If you just 1a up the ramp, you're screwed. But if you poke the ramp, goad him down, kite with the hellion and focus the stalkers with the marauders, you might win right there. I've started playing with this build and I just won a game with the poke where his composition was identical to that which you described. Remember: this early, with one sentry, he gets two ff max. No need to run up against it and play into his hand.
I've played a half dozen games with this build. The one game I lost (first I played) was to what I thought was a zealot heavy force until he popped his void rays out of his hidden stargate. By the time my marines got back to my base the void rays were charged and that's all she wrote.
The most recent game I played was against a very zealot heavy force. And I agree: zealots don't tank banshees. For my first push, he had a half dozen stalkers and 10ish zealots. PDD, focus fire the stalkers, let the marines die, and then when only zealots and banshees are left, clean up. The game lasted quite a while, actually, because without the marines, and having already used the PDD, the warped-in stalkers were able to repel the remaining banshees. The game lasted long enough for him to get High Templar. And those HURT. But with proper micro and constant pressure he'll never have enough energy for more than two at once, so I was okay.
I have yet to see Phoenixes when I use this build. Do PDD's stop Phoenix shots? If not, wouldn't Phoenix/Zealot by the hard counter?
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pdd does not work on phoenixes. If they knew you were doing this and went phoenix zealot they'd probably wreck you. It's tricky to predict this push is coming, and by the time they got a real lot/nix force, with 3/1/2 you could techswitch so easily.
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Ive actually lost to a very similar build but it was 2 rax with reactor+1 rax no addon+2 starports with techlabs. Making 100% marine+banshee. No early pressure but it involves a factory float roughly the time when a templar archives would be starting. The factory lands and starts making hellions as you push forward with your 1 raven, 5 or 6 banshee, and bunch of marines. I found it very hard to stop with zealots, stalkers. In my opinion, if a terran is on 1 base just go for tech. You NEED HT or phoenix vs this push. Next time I run into it im going to tech 1 base to HT, skip storm, make like 10 zealots, 4 stalkers, and like 4 HT to feedback then become archons.
If I went phoenix id have to worry about microing away from marines and PDD will block phoenix shots. Fast HT and rushing archons (until someone expands). After one expands the game could go in a million different directions.
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On September 03 2010 03:44 shutdown_exploded wrote: pdd does not work on phoenixes. If they knew you were doing this and went phoenix zealot they'd probably wreck you. It's tricky to predict this push is coming, and by the time they got a real lot/nix force, with 3/1/2 you could techswitch so easily.
Phoenix zealot doesn't work because you will be able to tell whether they are building out of a stargate or not fairly early on. If there is a stargate, then you can simply get cloaked banshees and win.
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On September 03 2010 03:48 GoSu] wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 03:44 shutdown_exploded wrote: pdd does not work on phoenixes. If they knew you were doing this and went phoenix zealot they'd probably wreck you. It's tricky to predict this push is coming, and by the time they got a real lot/nix force, with 3/1/2 you could techswitch so easily. Phoenix zealot doesn't work because you will be able to tell whether they are building out of a stargate or not fairly early on. If there is a stargate, then you can simply get cloaked banshees and win. IMO 3 gate+1 robo fast tech to HT is best counter to this. If the terran sees this coming he can switch a techlab on his factory and get igniter hellions or in the build i talked about 2 posts above, he can switch a reactor onto his factory. Hopefully by then protoss has started an expansion and is keeping the terran from expanding to gain an advantage going into lategame.
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you can support 6 production facilities off of 1 base!?
edit: and you can transition into an expand... How is this possible?
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On September 03 2010 03:44 shutdown_exploded wrote: pdd does not work on phoenixes. If they knew you were doing this and went phoenix zealot they'd probably wreck you. It's tricky to predict this push is coming, and by the time they got a real lot/nix force, with 3/1/2 you could techswitch so easily. Why do people keep saying things that are not true? PDD DOES WORK ON PHEONIX.
On September 03 2010 04:00 kNyTTyM wrote: you can support 6 production facilities off of 1 base!? Marines cost 50 minerals, hellions cost 100. You are producing out of 3 raxes and 1 factory that is only 250/0 a cycle, very low cost basically. Basically 4 out of 6 production facilities are cheap as heck.
Banshees are 300/200 and take very long to build.
After your first engagement you will without a doubt lose supply, this is when you can cut supply depot and hellion production and easiliy have a huge excess in minerals while either reinforcing are starting up a defense at your natural(ravens cost 100/200 and you will have a lot of excess gas).
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On September 03 2010 03:56 TheGreenMachine wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 03:48 GoSu] wrote:On September 03 2010 03:44 shutdown_exploded wrote: pdd does not work on phoenixes. If they knew you were doing this and went phoenix zealot they'd probably wreck you. It's tricky to predict this push is coming, and by the time they got a real lot/nix force, with 3/1/2 you could techswitch so easily. Phoenix zealot doesn't work because you will be able to tell whether they are building out of a stargate or not fairly early on. If there is a stargate, then you can simply get cloaked banshees and win. IMO 3 gate+1 robo fast tech to HT is best counter to this. If the terran sees this coming he can switch a techlab on his factory and get igniter hellions or in the build i talked about 2 posts above, he can switch a reactor onto his factory. Hopefully by then protoss has started an expansion and is keeping the terran from expanding to gain an advantage going into lategame. Look at the newest replay, in which protoss goes pretty much all in with 3 gate robo and a stargate and still barely beats my army. If he went for templar instead of stargate it would have not come out within time.
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I dont quite understand here soemthing. Why only 1 person commented the early templars? Going 3 gate citadel>templars is the perfect counter for this.
Sure you need to scout, but if you do, you can hold this farelly well.
3 Gate provides you with enough units to hold off the rines/banshees/helions, you would want 2:1 stalker zealot composition. And really, you only need 1 templar to own this push.
You can feedback PDD and kill itt. Get at leat 1 templar, with a good mix of gateway and rines will melt to lots while stalkers will own banshees.
As it was previously mentioned, the focus of this build is to push early with PDD while P has not enough units.
A 3 gate templars(or 4 gate) can be used for blink because of citadel, and you only need one templars to counter efficiently the PDD.
So basically, scout after the poke, see duo stargate, tech on stargate? Go for templars,they counter efficiently the PDD and increase the pawnage of your gateway units. By the time this push comes, you sure wont have storm, but your focus here is too feedback the PDD. So get 2 templars, feeback PDD and a possible banshee and get the archon that will rape them, while you will have a good flow of units because of 3 gate blink starlkers or sentry/lots/stalkers with charge.
And after holding the push, because of the lack of siege tanks, you can usually apply heavy pressure to his natural and expand yourself.
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On September 03 2010 04:40 tocador wrote: I dont quite understand here soemthing. Why only 1 person commented the early templars? Going 3 gate citadel>templars is the perfect counter for this.
Sure you need to scout, but if you do, you can hold this farelly well.
3 Gate provides you with enough units to hold off the rines/banshees/helions, you would want 2:1 stalker zealot composition. And really, you only need 1 templar to own this push.
You can feedback PDD and kill itt. Get at leat 1 templar, with a good mix of gateway and rines will melt to lots while stalkers will own banshees.
As it was previously mentioned, the focus of this build is to push early with PDD while P has not enough units.
A 3 gate templars(or 4 gate) can be used for blink because of citadel, and you only need one templars to counter efficiently the PDD.
So basically, scout after the poke, see duo stargate, tech on stargate? Go for templars,they counter efficiently the PDD and increase the pawnage of your gateway units. By the time this push comes, you sure wont have storm, but your focus here is too feedback the PDD. So get 2 templars, feeback PDD and a possible banshee and get the archon that will rape them, while you will have a good flow of units because of 3 gate blink starlkers or sentry/lots/stalkers with charge.
And after holding the push, because of the lack of siege tanks, you can usually apply heavy pressure to his natural and expand yourself.
How are you going to scout up a terran ramp without observers? 3 gate is not enough by itself, 3 gate with 2-3 immortals is barely enough, depending on positioning and use of pdd.
And again, how are you going to scout? Or defend against cloak banshees? Unlike protoss, terran has scan, so if there is no robotics, cloak banshees will be coming.
Basically what I'm trying to say is, your idea makes no sense.
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After the poke, you can scout with stalkers and apply pressure to his front. Force him to show his unit conposition and eventually scout him. Or better yet. 3 gate blink stalkers isnt all that uncommon of a build to go, so you can be pretty much safe against this with templars.
And agaisnt the 1,1k toss player, IMO, the reason he lost was actually not having feebacked the PDD, which he could had.
But yeah you can always go 2 gate robo > templars > 3 gate.
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On September 03 2010 04:53 tocador wrote: After the poke, you can scout with stalkers and apply pressure to his front. Force him to show his unit conposition and eventually scout him. Or better yet. 3 gate blink stalkers isnt all that uncommon of a build to go, so you can be pretty much safe against this with templars.
And agaisnt the 1,1k toss player, IMO, the reason he lost was actually not having feebacked the PDD, which he could had.
But yeah you can always go 2 gate robo > templars > 3 gate. oh my god
After the poke you are either too low on units to be suiciding them in, and even if you had units you can't just magically go up his ramp and scout for starports. Stop theorycrafting and try it out with a replay, you can add me at hyungbean.149. Two gate robo would die, and you can't possibly support all that gas off one base.
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On September 01 2010 17:00 Kiante wrote:Sounds like storm could wreck your day. What would be your response if you scouted a P rushing for psi storm? also 6 structures off 1 base? all in
Protoss player here.
A few things I want to address.
1. This push works very well. Even a toss player who knows his early game very well has a chance to lose to this especially if they don't have a sentry.
2. Off Topic Rant. I hate the fact that terrans can pull this kind of crap and get away with it without me being able to punish them back for what is essentially a retarded rush build.
3. I don't know what your definition of rushing for psi storm is, but this build is designed to punish a toss player who doesn't build a small force to defend their base early.
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On September 03 2010 05:02 bobcat wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 17:00 Kiante wrote:Sounds like storm could wreck your day. What would be your response if you scouted a P rushing for psi storm? also 6 structures off 1 base? all in 3. I don't know what your definition of rushing for psi storm is, but this build is designed to punish a toss player who doesn't build a small force to defend their base early.
Point 3 is what never made sense to me, and why people even bring it up. How can you possibly support a gateway unit composition, templar, storm research, and possibly robotics tech off two gas. Templar pretty much have to be gotten off two base imo.
Good points though =]
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You can support 1 obs, and templar off 1 base the exact same way that the terran can support Raven/Banshee/Cloak off 1 base.
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I don't know if anyone has mentions this or not....but this should be on liquipedia....i think its a viable enough build from the sound of it....also
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On September 02 2010 09:03 roymarthyup wrote: it seems like this build doesnt really use one of its buildings so really its producing with 5 buildings
producing with 5 buildings and expanding as terran is completely possible with mules. that seems about standard since toss can produce off 4 buildings and expand so terran gets an extra with mules
also i think the build makes that 6th building so he can have variety and pick which 5 of his buildings he wants to produce from and then when his expo comes up he can add on 3 more buildings and have 9 production buildings on two bases which is normal
the sixth building is the factory and they get it to unlock the starports.
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How effective would it be to use Sentires to:
Create stalker hallucinatios -> make them attack PDD so it consumes more energy.
Yeah, it might be better to just force the Terran to deploy the PDD early, but this requires a bit of stalker micro + pressure; if the Terran ball has already engaged your army, then I think making hallucinations might be more effective because if you try to run, the Terran ball will have a chance to get some hits off as you retreat. Opinions?
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Superbaboseki have you lost with this build barring stupid mistakes? Is there anything I should watch out for when I use this build?
edit: Also I notice the gas timing is different in some of the reps
Sometimes it is at the first marauder building and sometimes it is right after factory starts. Which one is better or are both viable?
Also in the last replay I noticed you produced 3 ravens. When do you build ravens vs banshees? When do you expand?
Thanks in advance
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Early Hts don't even need storm feedback kills anything dangerous IE pdd raven and banshees. Lots and stalkers clean up the rines....
Use sentries to keep ramp blocked as the terran only has marines and a few hellions for ground once hts come out this timing is gone and p is on the advantage.
Have played against this and only requires me as the toss to scout and delay just like any other bio heavy build.
~850 Toss
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On September 01 2010 17:18 nafta wrote:I have faced this a lot lately like every single terran does this lol(BTW shouldn't this be 3/1/2???).I open phoenixes all my pvt-s so it's kind of easier to handle though .The only thing that is really problematic here is that even if terran is making vikings the tech labs have the same glow as if it is upgrading so you always have to assume he is getting cloack :/.
that should really be fixed, the building glow should be seperate from the add-on glow. We should be able to see if the terran is researching something out of their rax, fac, or starport. All the protosss upgrade structures have a sperate animation, most the zerg morphing is visible, except the evo chamber, which is a no brainer.
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The initial poke here is what people are missing I think. I have yet to lose with this build, and the initial poke is where I feel you win the game. Just the sight of seeing 3 maurder hellion and a marine is enough to take down the toss. From my few games, after that poke dies the toss goes immortals to counter your maurders as it's all he's seen since your base is blocked,
and easily able to scan and kill an OB and then cloak the banshees around. Stalkers cant be everywhere and 2 banshees 1 shot a probe
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On September 03 2010 05:37 frogmelter wrote: Superbaboseki have you lost with this build barring stupid mistakes? Is there anything I should watch out for when I use this build?
edit: Also I notice the gas timing is different in some of the reps
Sometimes it is at the first marauder building and sometimes it is right after factory starts. Which one is better or are both viable?
Also in the last replay I noticed you produced 3 ravens. When do you build ravens vs banshees? When do you expand?
Thanks in advance Anytime I lost it was due to a stupid mistake or mismicro, every loss has been really close and could have been won if I just played better overall, I have yet to be absolutely demolished. Some of the replays were older and unrefined but gas after factory is what you should be doing.
I only produced ravens in the last replay because I already knew I won, but in some situations because you have so much extra gas it would be smart to get the ravens out b4 you transition into medivacs.
Be very wary of surprise stargate play, if you see two gateways no robo just assume stargate and produce at least 1 viking. Also if you see 4 gate just don't push out until 4 banshees are out, your unit count will be much higher at this point and if he expanded off the 4 gate you will probably win.
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On September 03 2010 05:08 Nightfall.589 wrote: You can support 1 obs, and templar off 1 base the exact same way that the terran can support Raven/Banshee/Cloak off 1 base.
Terrans can support this because overall they are still far less gas intensive than the protoss.
Submitted for your approval.
Toss Terran Robotics facility 100g Factory 100g council 100g 2 Starports 200g templar archives 200g 4 tech labs 100g psi storm 200g cloak 200g
2 templar 300g 2 banshees 200g
1 observer 100g 1 Raven 200g
8 stalkers 400g 8 marauders 200g 2 sentries 200g
Total 1600g 1200g
Keep in mind that you have access to all of your tech tree minus Battlecruisers and Thors while the protoss player does not have acces to Carriers, Colossuses, Phoenixes and Void Rays. Also, the T player has 2 Starports for faster unit production which is necessary for both teams.
The reason I bring this up is because it would cost another 300g to build 2 stargates and additional gas to build any air forces. This comparison also assumes that the toss player did not get charge 200g or blink 150g, or khaydarin amulet (templar energy)150g It will cost the Terran player 100g to unlock thors, and 150g to unlock BC's. While it takes 200g to unlock colossuses and another 200g to make them useful at all(range upgrade), and it takes 200g to unlock carriers and a similar 150g upgrade to make them worth teching to.
It is more expensive for us to harrass your mineral line either with DT's, 500g for the shrine + two DT's or with 3 void rays 450g. Both of which are about as effective as 3 banshees 300g.'
Now.... for the protoss player to support an army as felixble/diverse/strong as the T army is, we have to expand to a second base, and somehow find the time and money to saturate this base while defending with tier 1.5 forces which are inferior to marine marauder with stim. Obviously that is not an option, so yeah, getting templar off of one base and stalling is really the only way a toss player can survive against a skilled terran.
Early Hts don't even need storm feedback kills anything dangerous IE pdd raven and banshees. Lots and stalkers clean up the rines....
On September 03 2010 05:51 Lukk wrote: Early Hts don't even need storm feedback kills anything dangerous IE pdd raven and banshees. Lots and stalkers clean up the rines....
Use sentries to keep ramp blocked as the terran only has marines and a few hellions for ground once hts come out this timing is gone and p is on the advantage.
Have played against this and only requires me as the toss to scout and delay just like any other bio heavy build.
~850 Toss
True, but what if they go marauders? You have no way of knowing until you crank out an observer and it's too late by then.
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great build, i ve been doing something very similar from time to time since i saw the games between TLO and WhiteRa :p
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@Bobcat
You don't need storm for the first push, and you don't need 2 templar. You just need one, to feedback the PDD, and suddenly T is at a disadvantage.
You also forgot stim and conc shells.
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Unless I'm wrong, stim comes much later, if at all. Marines are there to force decision between hitting banshees or taking out marines. It would be nice if the build had the time to throw a tech lab back down and learn stim and shield. It'd be about unstoppable then.
I keep getting toss that go into collsasurous rex and just let me concave them and banshee rape em.
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Two higher level replays added with a fast CC + transition incorporated. I do a marauder/medivac transition, while he opts for templar.
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build in action! easiest 1100 victory I ever took - sweet sweet protoss tears:
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On September 03 2010 08:58 kh4n wrote:build in action! easiest 1100 victory I ever took - sweet sweet protoss tears: Hahaha glad you like it =]
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Protoss here--- low/mid diamond (650ish whatever)--- I need to play 1s more often. I don't claim to be amazing-- just trying to understand how I would counter this.
Just some numbers:
I compared one of my anti-terran 3-gate-to-either-4gate-or-tech pressure builds as protoss vs your replays. I would send my first stalker and possibly 2nd stalker to shoot + run away repeatedly to cut down some of the troops on your ramp/buildings... to also scout and be annoying. I would keep harassing abusing shield regen if there's no concussive going up for sure.
1) by the time of your poke, you had 3 marauders/2marines1 hellion. (6:30ish?) I had 6 stalkers, 2 zealots. 500/75 resources vs my 950/300. (but you had to make fact + lab and other buildings going up)
I'm pretty sure I would stomp that at that point though.
2) By the time of your typical winning attack (10m ish) You had: 3 marauders, 3 hellions, 14 marines, 1 raven, 2 banshee. ( 1700/475ish resources)
I had 12 stalkers, 8 zealots, 2 sentries (2400/800ish resources)
Throw in the infrastructure you build and we're semi equal in resources. (chrono boost on probes makes up the rest) Without PDD I'm certain my forces would smash that. I'm not sure how it'd go with PDD. I'd have to experiment with someone.
In my area of diamond almost every terran favors MMM spam or early marine pressure. (hence my pressure build to survive until I either go robo/colo or charge/psi depending on what they're doing )
It's true-- I don't have observers--- as I've been relying on harassment for recon. So far I can usually tell if someone is massing infantry or going 1:1:1 with this harassment recon. I could drop 2 stalkers and a sentry for an observer and still, I think, stand up to that assault.
Then again I'm probably not as good as you are-- I'm just trying to think/calculate it out in my head to come up with a counter should I come across someone doing this.
What would you do vs a protoss that just harasses the hell out of you abusing shield regen doing your strat?
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On September 03 2010 11:59 LegionSC2 wrote:Protoss here--- low/mid diamond (650ish whatever)--- I need to play 1s more often. I don't claim to be amazing-- just trying to understand how I would counter this. Just some numbers: I compared one of my anti-terran 3-gate-to-either-4gate-or-tech pressure builds as protoss vs your replays. I would send my first stalker and possibly 2nd stalker to shoot + run away repeatedly to cut down some of the troops on your ramp/buildings... to also scout and be annoying. I would keep harassing abusing shield regen if there's no concussive going up for sure. 1) by the time of your poke, you had 3 marauders/2marines1 hellion. (6:30ish?) I had 6 stalkers, 2 zealots. 500/75 resources vs my 950/300. (but you had to make fact + lab and other buildings going up) I'm pretty sure I would stomp that at that point though. 2) By the time of your typical winning attack (10m ish) You had: 3 marauders, 3 hellions, 14 marines, 1 raven, 2 banshee. ( 1700/475ish resources) I had 12 stalkers, 8 zealots, 2 sentries (2400/800ish resources) Throw in the infrastructure you build and we're semi equal in resources. (chrono boost on probes makes up the rest) Without PDD I'm certain my forces would smash that. I'm not sure how it'd go with PDD. I'd have to experiment with someone. In my area of diamond almost every terran favors MMM spam or early marine pressure. (hence my pressure build to survive until I either go robo/colo or charge/psi depending on what they're doing ) It's true-- I don't have observers--- as I've been relying on harassment for recon. So far I can usually tell if someone is massing infantry or going 1:1:1 with this harassment recon. I could drop 2 stalkers and a sentry for an observer and still, I think, stand up to that assault. Then again I'm probably not as good as you are-- I'm just trying to think/calculate it out in my head to come up with a counter should I come across someone doing this. What would you do vs a protoss that just harasses the hell out of you abusing shield regen doing your strat?
6 Stalkers and two zealots vs my first poke? That would almost certainly mean you are going two gate really fast and my first SCV will obviously see that so I would have no intention of poking in. And yeah I do get my concussive upgrade in most of the replays. My replays vs the much more standard one gate robo into 3 gate robo has a good poke that will let me kill off a few units and scout out what's up.
It seems what you are trying to do is go mass gateway no robotics, and you are calculating army strength off resources which is the wrong way to go about things.
Instead of thinking about these funky situational timings/counters you really just have to find someone to practice with.
I have no clue what you are talking about as to abusing shield regen. After my 5 unit force there is a small timing window to do so which includes remaking a good amount of stalkers, sending them down to my base, moving up the ramp only to be forced back down, and then two banshees pop out.
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1 gateway into robo into 3-4 more gateways is a little rough on this. You stop the poke with forcefield on ramp.
You go heavy zealot and tech to charge while adding more gateways having 4-5 stalkers the rest zealots. You can't kite or chew through that many zealots and when charge is done the marines are pretty useless. Even if you take out the first set of stalkers he can warp them in fast enough to counter your banshee production.
150 health per zealot is a lot to chew through and the hellions just don't do enough dps to clear through a large pool of them with an sort of good unit spread.Maruader slow is a nice touch but three wont be able to keep a good pool of zealots slow. Youre forced to move away from your pdd either choosing to let the banshees stay and try to duke it out with ever warping in stalker menace or move back with your army trying to pick off zealots while retreating. This buys the protoss time to further cement his answer to your squishy but high dps force.
Also a beeline to void rush on this build throws it off since youre sacrificing banshees for the viking since maraine count is so low from the initial marauders.
edit: you can technically skip the robo but its nice to see what you have coming you just need sentries to ff ramp. This build handles a lot of openings but unfortunately its hard to move out of and cedes a lot of mid-game control if answered properly.
edit 2: tried to clean it up sorry been drinking more than usual tonight
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On September 03 2010 12:49 abominare wrote: 1 gateway into robo into 3-4 more gateways is a little rough on this. You stop the poke with forcefield on ramp.
You go heavy zealot and tech to chrage while adding more gateways havie 4-5 stalkers the rest zealots. You can't kite or chew through that many zealots and when charge is dun the marines are pretty uesless. Even if you take out the first set of stalkers he can warp tem in fast enough to counter your banshee production.
150 health per zealot and the hellions just dont do enough dps, with assuming 3 surviving marauders from the poke not enough slow to kite a heavy zealot force.
edit: you can technically skip the robo but its nice to see what you have coming you just need sentries to ff ramp. This build handles a lot of openings but unfortunately its hard to move out of and cedes a lot of midgame control if answered properly.
I'm normally not a grammar nazi but, what the fuck is this shit?
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Toss here played against this today got owned pretty hard. Owned first push with forcefield, opponent being careless so i caught some of his guys on the way back. Expanded, macroed up had chargelots, stalkers and like 2 immortals. Got raped by 2 ravens like 6 banshees and like some marines? Anyways question is should I just treat PDD like darkswarm and retreat?
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On September 03 2010 13:07 kaisr wrote: Toss here played against this today got owned pretty hard. Owned first push with forcefield, opponent being careless so i caught some of his guys on the way back. Expanded, macroed up had chargelots, stalkers and like 2 immortals. Got raped by 2 ravens like 6 banshees and like some marines? Anyways question is should I just treat PDD like darkswarm and retreat? Dance with stalkers since terran won't want to get out of PDD range. Just poke in, shoot, poke out, to kill off some energy.
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On September 03 2010 13:07 kaisr wrote: Toss here played against this today got owned pretty hard. Owned first push with forcefield, opponent being careless so i caught some of his guys on the way back. Expanded, macroed up had chargelots, stalkers and like 2 immortals. Got raped by 2 ravens like 6 banshees and like some marines? Anyways question is should I just treat PDD like darkswarm and retreat?
Depends on stalker count, this is once of those situations where having your army a little ahead of your expo is nice. If he blows all his pdd up front you move back if he launches 1 then you should be able to overwhelm the second one when he pushes further and gets to your nat.
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On September 03 2010 12:10 superbabosheki wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 11:59 LegionSC2 wrote:Protoss here--- low/mid diamond (650ish whatever)--- I need to play 1s more often. I don't claim to be amazing-- just trying to understand how I would counter this. Just some numbers: I compared one of my anti-terran 3-gate-to-either-4gate-or-tech pressure builds as protoss vs your replays. I would send my first stalker and possibly 2nd stalker to shoot + run away repeatedly to cut down some of the troops on your ramp/buildings... to also scout and be annoying. I would keep harassing abusing shield regen if there's no concussive going up for sure. 1) by the time of your poke, you had 3 marauders/2marines1 hellion. (6:30ish?) I had 6 stalkers, 2 zealots. 500/75 resources vs my 950/300. (but you had to make fact + lab and other buildings going up) I'm pretty sure I would stomp that at that point though. 2) By the time of your typical winning attack (10m ish) You had: 3 marauders, 3 hellions, 14 marines, 1 raven, 2 banshee. ( 1700/475ish resources) I had 12 stalkers, 8 zealots, 2 sentries (2400/800ish resources) Throw in the infrastructure you build and we're semi equal in resources. (chrono boost on probes makes up the rest) Without PDD I'm certain my forces would smash that. I'm not sure how it'd go with PDD. I'd have to experiment with someone. In my area of diamond almost every terran favors MMM spam or early marine pressure. (hence my pressure build to survive until I either go robo/colo or charge/psi depending on what they're doing ) It's true-- I don't have observers--- as I've been relying on harassment for recon. So far I can usually tell if someone is massing infantry or going 1:1:1 with this harassment recon. I could drop 2 stalkers and a sentry for an observer and still, I think, stand up to that assault. Then again I'm probably not as good as you are-- I'm just trying to think/calculate it out in my head to come up with a counter should I come across someone doing this. What would you do vs a protoss that just harasses the hell out of you abusing shield regen doing your strat? 6 Stalkers and two zealots vs my first poke? That would almost certainly mean you are going two gate really fast and my first SCV will obviously see that so I would have no intention of poking in. And yeah I do get my concussive upgrade in most of the replays. My replays vs the much more standard one gate robo into 3 gate robo has a good poke that will let me kill off a few units and scout out what's up. It seems what you are trying to do is go mass gateway no robotics, and you are calculating army strength off resources which is the wrong way to go about things. Instead of thinking about these funky situational timings/counters you really just have to find someone to practice with. I have no clue what you are talking about as to abusing shield regen. After my 5 unit force there is a small timing window to do so which includes remaking a good amount of stalkers, sending them down to my base, moving up the ramp only to be forced back down, and then two banshees pop out.
Like I said-- you probably understand the dynamics better--- I do need to find someone to practice with vs that. And yeah gate way pressure--- vs someone teching like that. It's worked for me oddly enough vs some 111 people. Your build techs a bit more with two starports and doesn't have tanks so I was hoping to be able to pressure it hmmm
So you don't think gateway pressure would be a valid counter at all? (thanks for posting the loss vs that protoss w/templar too.. giving me other ideas )
As for regen harass... I meant non stop shooting terran on their ramp with my first few stalkers and running away.. then shooting... then running away etc.... concussive puts a stop to it though.
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I used this strat a few times in low level leagues Mid Platinum and I cant get past a simple 4 gate push. Seems like I'm talking about the same thing as Legion, at 6 minutes when I go to move out he already has way too many stalkers and just pushes right into my base before the Raven comes out, how would you react to this or change anything up if u think ur opponent is just going to 4 gate and mass stalkers
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On September 03 2010 16:43 Relapse916 wrote: I used this strat a few times in low level leagues Mid Platinum and I cant get past a simple 4 gate push. Seems like I'm talking about the same thing as Legion, at 6 minutes when I go to move out he already has way too many stalkers and just pushes right into my base before the Raven comes out, how would you react to this or change anything up if u think ur opponent is just going to 4 gate and mass stalkers You're probably not doing this build right at all then, and I do admit it does require a decent amount of multitasking, timing of the buildings/depots, and micro.
4 gate is more all-in than this in terms of economy, tech, and unit count. If you do think it is a 4 gate all you have to do is research cloak, build a bunker and autowin.
In fact, 4 gate is probably one of the worst responses to this build. People seem to forget about the fact that with this build terran pretty much has access to the entire tech tree and can go almost any route.
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Yea ive been practicing it and I think i just need to work on the multi tasking,
I uploaded this replay if you have time to skim through it and point out anything I might need to work on im sure theres a bunch of things, I microed terrible in the poke and just got demolished with stalkers. maybe some of my timings are off with the build?
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/70999-1v1-terran-protoss-delta-quadrant
thanks
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Hello Guys. I am P player and I also want to know how to FACE this build^^ which unit should I attack first? Which is the best counter to this build?
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This build is amazing — I'd been struggling against my buddy's protoss game until I tried this yesterday and went 3-1 against him (the only time I lost was my own fault). It seems to me that one of the benefits of the build is that you can apply constant pressure on the protoss which hampers their ability to expand and/or tech.
Your replays have been very educational — thanks for sharing!
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Had my friend try this build on me (he's a 1200 D terran...) and against my 2gate robo 3gate charge, this was....horrible...
All I had to do was camp at my ramp and split your first army, which was easily demolished by 2 zealots 1 stalker and 1 sentry...I see no way for this to do ANY damage...
The 2 starports get scouted by the 2gate robo observer long before a raven is out, and if I see a terran massing marines I just go lolzealotsentry and 1a2a3f to win...
Sentries do FAR better vs air than people give credit for, 1 sentry has just .2 DPS less than a marine, and if I go 2gate robo 3gate charge, I'll have HTs out quickly if I see banshees for feedback (equals almost dead/softened up banshees that lose to my sentry focus fire.)
The ground army gets demolished by 1/2 immortals and chargelots as well as archons/storm, and since you tech so hard it allows me to do a 2robo 3gate fast expand completely safely. I'll be on 2 bases before you even start to expo since all my gas goes into tech/hts since I'm massing chargelot.
replays coming soon.
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On September 03 2010 23:55 .ImpacT. wrote: Had my friend try this build on me (he's a 1200 D terran...) and against my 2gate robo 3gate charge, this was....horrible...
All I had to do was camp at my ramp and split your first army, which was easily demolished by 2 zealots 1 stalker and 1 sentry...I see no way for this to do ANY damage...
The 2 starports get scouted by the 2gate robo observer long before a raven is out, and if I see a terran massing marines I just go lolzealotsentry and 1a2a3f to win...
Sentries do FAR better vs air than people give credit for, 1 sentry has just .2 DPS less than a marine, and if I go 2gate robo 3gate charge, I'll have HTs out quickly if I see banshees for feedback (equals almost dead/softened up banshees that lose to my sentry focus fire.)
The ground army gets demolished by 1/2 immortals and chargelots as well as archons/storm, and since you tech so hard it allows me to do a 2robo 3gate fast expand completely safely. I'll be on 2 bases before you even start to expo since all my gas goes into tech/hts since I'm massing chargelot.
replays coming soon.
Just want to drop a quick note on sentry "anti-air," it takes 2 banshees 3 seconds to FF down a sentry; in comparison it takes 2 sentries about 9 seconds to kill a banshee.
Also, you can't expect to be able to get a perfect split every game. Sounds like your friend sent in the hellion first; maras first can focus down the stalker and sentry, then kite zealots while marine and hellion offer fire support from behind FF. Also, you can bet that most toss players would have fewer zealots and more stalkers vs Terran; obviously you tailored your army to what you knew would walk up the ramp.
I'm sure that you realize that the "winning push" comes way before you can go down 2 tech trees; you will either have observers or you will have charge with archives on the way.
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This indeed looks like a rather strong build... I'm mostly a P player, so allow me to theorycraft a soft-counter as I can't play atm...
The big issue for P seems to be the first timing attack (not the poke). Because it has high DPS, and the PDD can negates stalkers shots.
So, what about mass sentries/zealots ?
Guardian shield would be very effective against that army comp of fast shooting units (plus banshees would suffer a 4 damage reduction per shot) and their attack don't get blocked by PDD at all. Mass FF would allow the zealots to wreck the marines. Finally, the overall cost of this army comp is lower than zealot/stalkers, freeing some minerals for whatever please you.
Here are some cons to balance that theorycraft... Sentries have low HP, lots of micro needed to take the most out of it, they are outranged by banshees, and much slower than stalkers are, making your whole base more vulnerable to banshee harass.
But hey, if that's the price to lol at the PDD, why not give it a try...
PS: I KNOW this is pure theory, am just trying to help my toss buddies out there...
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On September 04 2010 01:23 Shaithis wrote: Also, you can't expect to be able to get a perfect split every game.
You don't need a perfect one though. Anything from 1-3 will destroy it.
Sounds like your friend sent in the hellion first; maras first can focus down the stalker and sentry, then kite zealots while marine and hellion offer fire support from behind FF.
Except you aren't getting all your marauders into a toss's base, and the couple that do go in can't kill the stalkers in time.
Also, you can bet that most toss players would have fewer zealots and more stalkers vs Terran; obviously you tailored your army to what you knew would walk up the ramp.
More stalkers works fine too. Let a couple units up the ramp, kill them from long range with only 1-2 shooting back. Absolute worst case is you need a couple probes to tank for your stalkers after FF drops, if you lose all your zealots.
That push is the weakest part of this build (and the rest is just marine/banshee all-in really). You can stop it on Kulas, it's trivial to stop with a ramp and a sentry.
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On September 04 2010 01:23 Shaithis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 23:55 .ImpacT. wrote: Had my friend try this build on me (he's a 1200 D terran...) and against my 2gate robo 3gate charge, this was....horrible...
All I had to do was camp at my ramp and split your first army, which was easily demolished by 2 zealots 1 stalker and 1 sentry...I see no way for this to do ANY damage...
The 2 starports get scouted by the 2gate robo observer long before a raven is out, and if I see a terran massing marines I just go lolzealotsentry and 1a2a3f to win...
Sentries do FAR better vs air than people give credit for, 1 sentry has just .2 DPS less than a marine, and if I go 2gate robo 3gate charge, I'll have HTs out quickly if I see banshees for feedback (equals almost dead/softened up banshees that lose to my sentry focus fire.)
The ground army gets demolished by 1/2 immortals and chargelots as well as archons/storm, and since you tech so hard it allows me to do a 2robo 3gate fast expand completely safely. I'll be on 2 bases before you even start to expo since all my gas goes into tech/hts since I'm massing chargelot.
replays coming soon. Just want to drop a quick note on sentry "anti-air," it takes 2 banshees 3 seconds to FF down a sentry; in comparison it takes 2 sentries about 9 seconds to kill a banshee. Also, you can't expect to be able to get a perfect split every game. Sounds like your friend sent in the hellion first; maras first can focus down the stalker and sentry, then kite zealots while marine and hellion offer fire support from behind FF. Also, you can bet that most toss players would have fewer zealots and more stalkers vs Terran; obviously you tailored your army to what you knew would walk up the ramp. I'm sure that you realize that the "winning push" comes way before you can go down 2 tech trees; you will either have observers or you will have charge with archives on the way.
You seem to forget that banshees are costly, and that I'll have a lot of excess gas to tech with when I go 2gate robo 3gate charge. I'll gladly play you, I'm a 1200 diamond toss with a 70-80% win rate vs terran. (courtesy of a program that checks all your replays, don't remember the name [at work], its on TL though.)
Gas management: First 50 - Stalker Next 100 - Sentry Next 100 - Robo Next 50 - Warpgate Next 50 - Stalker Next 100 - Observer Next 100 - Council Next 200 - Charge Next 200 - Templarchives Next 300 - 2 templar, morph to archon. Next 200 - Storm
Add sentries if NEEDED, otherwise keep one/two to hold your ramp. If your observer scouts quick banshee, you can delay templar by 100-ish gas for two/three stalkers.
The gas costs for a terran far exceed that of a toss in this build, a RAVEN + 3-4 Banshees? The factory? The starport? The research for cloak if you go that path? The time it takes to get a substantial banshee count? The ground army of a toss will destroy the terran if he goes too banshee heavy, chargelots EAT marines. Then its just down to 2-3 feedback-raped banshees vs 1 archon and a few sentries.
I'll have zealot charge by the time you get to my base, with all the excess minerals dumped into zealots, and after I get charge its straight to HT's. Feedback comes on spawn for hts, and your push will come with banshees at 100+ energy. You forget that a rush to HT is for the archon, which EATS marines, and EATS banshees post-feedback.
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A LOT of THEORY CRAFTERS in here pointing out why this build wouldn't and won't work based off of unit compositions and not a thought regarding timing.
Sure, HT's might own this unit composition, but give it some thought on what it will cost you to get this HT out early. If you rush for the HT your resources are being used for something besides building a force (if you are building so and so sentries + blink stalkers + chargelots to fight this off, where the F are you going to get the gas to get HTs?) in which the "poke" will probably take you out.
Honestly, before dismissing it or bashing it, try the build out yourself or have an equal level Terran try this build on you. See what you can do.
If your strat beats it, post the replay.
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On September 04 2010 02:22 Newtybar wrote: A LOT of THEORY CRAFTERS in here pointing out why this build wouldn't and won't work based off of unit compositions and not a thought regarding timing.
Sure, HT's might own this unit composition, but give it some thought on what it will cost you to get this HT out early. If you rush for the HT your resources are being used for something besides building a force (if you are building so and so sentries + blink stalkers + chargelots to fight this off, where the F are you going to get the gas to get HTs?) in which the "poke" will probably take you out.
Honestly, before dismissing it or bashing it, try the build out yourself or have an equal level Terran try this build on you. See what you can do.
If your strat beats it, post the replay.
I plan to do so when I get home in about two hours. The rush for HT doesn't hurt your unit count a bit, as the end goal is zealot/sentry into zealot/templar. When you dump your gas into tech with 2 stalkers and 3-ish sentries to FF, you have a LOT of gas to tech with. Look at the comparisons above.
Also, who goes blink stalker vs MMM anymore...? It's far too ineffective vs marauder heavy armies, chargelot templar works best as far as I've seen (700 league games played, 200 custom, all as toss.)
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On September 04 2010 02:22 Newtybar wrote: A LOT of THEORY CRAFTERS in here pointing out why this build wouldn't and won't work based off of unit compositions and not a thought regarding timing.
Sure, HT's might own this unit composition, but give it some thought on what it will cost you to get this HT out early. If you rush for the HT your resources are being used for something besides building a force (if you are building so and so sentries + blink stalkers + chargelots to fight this off, where the F are you going to get the gas to get HTs?) in which the "poke" will probably take you out.
Honestly, before dismissing it or bashing it, try the build out yourself or have an equal level Terran try this build on you. See what you can do.
If your strat beats it, post the replay.
Two of my replays against OP have been posted. I think my build is very strong against 3-1-2, and it's also the standard build I use for PvT against everything (obviously adjusting if I see 4 rax or something...). It's very possible to hold the first 5 unit push with 1 gate->robo, and warp prism harass while getting HT allows you to hold against the first big push. As long as you survive there, HT really destroy marines/banshees/ravens.
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On September 03 2010 23:55 .ImpacT. wrote:Sentries do FAR better vs air than people give credit for, 1 sentry has just .2 DPS less than a marine, and if I go 2gate robo 3gate charge, I'll have HTs out quickly if I see banshees for feedback (equals almost dead/softened up banshees that lose to my sentry focus fire.)
That's assuming non-Stim (and when on earth are they not going to have Stim) and also ignoring the fact that Sentries are 100 more gas.
It's less that Sentries are underrated, it's more that we assume that they are worse in terms of DPS/life than Stalkers, but that simply isn't the case. Stalker with no Guardian Shield and Sentry with Guardian Shield against Marines is actually actually very comparable in terms of both life and damage and against Marauders Sentries are flat out better.
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On September 04 2010 03:03 whateversclever wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 23:55 .ImpacT. wrote:Sentries do FAR better vs air than people give credit for, 1 sentry has just .2 DPS less than a marine, and if I go 2gate robo 3gate charge, I'll have HTs out quickly if I see banshees for feedback (equals almost dead/softened up banshees that lose to my sentry focus fire.) That's assuming non-Stim (and when on earth are they not going to have Stim) and also ignoring the fact that Sentries are 100 more gas. It's less that Sentries are underrated, it's more that we assume that they are worse in terms of DPS/life than Stalkers, but that simply isn't the case. Stalker with no Guardian Shield and Sentry with Guardian Shield against Marines is actually actually very comparable in terms of both life and damage and against Marauders Sentries are flat out better.
You seem to forget that banshees are costly, and that I'll have a lot of excess gas to tech with when I go 2gate robo 3gate charge. I'll gladly play you, I'm a 1200 diamond toss with a 70-80% win rate vs terran. (courtesy of a program that checks all your replays, don't remember the name [at work], its on TL though.)
Gas management: First 50 - Stalker Next 100 - Sentry Next 100 - Robo Next 50 - Warpgate Next 50 - Stalker Next 100 - Observer Next 100 - Council Next 200 - Charge Next 200 - Templarchives Next 300 - 2 templar, morph to archon. Next 200 - Storm
Add sentries if NEEDED, otherwise keep one/two to hold your ramp. If your observer scouts quick banshee, you can delay templar by 100-ish gas for two/three stalkers.
The gas costs for a terran far exceed that of a toss in this build, a RAVEN + 3-4 Banshees? The factory? The starport? The research for cloak if you go that path? The time it takes to get a substantial banshee count? The ground army of a toss will destroy the terran if he goes too banshee heavy, chargelots EAT marines. Then its just down to 2-3 feedback-raped banshees vs 1 archon and a few sentries.
I'll have zealot charge by the time you get to my base, with all the excess minerals dumped into zealots, and after I get charge its straight to HT's. Feedback comes on spawn for hts, and your push will come with banshees at 100+ energy. You forget that a rush to HT is for the archon, which EATS marines, and EATS banshees post-feedback.
Did you read that post?
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On September 04 2010 03:03 whateversclever wrote: That's assuming non-Stim (and when on earth are they not going to have Stim) When they do the build in the OP?
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On September 04 2010 03:13 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 03:03 whateversclever wrote: That's assuming non-Stim (and when on earth are they not going to have Stim) When they do the build in the OP? Epic post is epic ^^
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I've used this type of build (3-1-2) but instead of having 2 tech labs I have one tech lab and one reactor, this lets me mass vikings if I see void rays. Also if you add more hellions and less marauders this build and "poke" work well vs zerg as well.
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On September 04 2010 03:13 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 03:03 whateversclever wrote: That's assuming non-Stim (and when on earth are they not going to have Stim) When they do the build in the OP?
I was referring to the comment generally about Sentries being good anti-air. Not as it pertains to this build.
And that's why I didn't quote the remainder of the post, because I was speaking exclusively to the point of "Sentries are underrated anti-air units."
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On September 03 2010 18:42 Relapse916 wrote:Yea ive been practicing it and I think i just need to work on the multi tasking, I uploaded this replay if you have time to skim through it and point out anything I might need to work on im sure theres a bunch of things, I microed terrible in the poke and just got demolished with stalkers. maybe some of my timings are off with the build? http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/70999-1v1-terran-protoss-delta-quadrantthanks Errm, the game ended a bit too quickly but here it goes.
1) first mistake, gas wasn't made till 15 which pretty much screws up everything 2) second gas before marine, what?? 3) poke was super duper uber late, he should not have 4 stalkers at you base 4) you right clicked move causing you to take alot of free shots 5) you didn't follow the build at all T_T
At mid plat you should at least do the standard 10 supply, 12 barracks, 13 gas, 15 orbitial every single game. You didn't even get to use this build because you died so early.
Look under the new "build order" tab, I added a replay with perfect timing vs some newb, and listed the general BO.
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used it effectively in 2v2 vs zerg / protoss with partner massing marines... dominated O_o
because u r attacking early / constantly reinforcing, u do need some APM skills to keep the build from stagnating imo
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Wow this is an awesome build
Just owned a Protoss with it
Thanks a ton
Ended my Protoss losing streak with it
Can't thank you enough
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mid diamond level game. the early Poke is so awesome, if it catches the opp off guard its so much win!
SUN TZU says "The art of war is winning the opponent without having to battle!"
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i think this is weak against gnial's opening for pvt any comments?
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On September 04 2010 11:09 GSang wrote: i think this is weak against gnial's opening for pvt any comments?
I had this thought too. However, I'm not sure how "weak" it is. I mean, it's possible that the lack of early concussive lets protoss cripple the terran. I think that it's most likely that the build for terran gets slightly delayed by the earlier concussive, and that the terran player loses a unit or two. Thus, Gnial's opening may be a viable way of delaying/weakening the early push.
So I think the quick stalker push could be good, but I I think the void ray followup may not be very effective vs. this build.
Edit:
My friend started doing this opening, and I plan on trying the day9 fast stalker opening against it. I'll tell you how it goes.
I'm only high plat, but I think the way to exploit this 3-1-2 is to start with quick stalker harass one-gate core style, and then expo quickly. I think that if you can figure out a way to defend the push, you will have an economic advantage - you can put down your third after defending.
The protoss army should be mainly stalkers (10-15), with a couple sentries and a very small number of zealots, if any. Spectating a game or two, it looked like zealots are rather useless for defending the second push, although they are pretty useful for defending the initial poke.
I'm not sure if a robo is a necessity. It might be better to get a forge before expanding, start the +1 after expanding, and put down a cannon or two at your expo for detection. IMO the issue with observers is that the terran has little problem sniping it due to the large number of marines in the push.
Some theorycrafting: -The observer route costs 200/200 for the robotics, and 25/75 for the observer, so 225/275 -The forge route costs 450 minerals for the cannons, 150 for the forge, so 600 minerals
So, it's 375 more minerals, and 275 less gas. I think gas is pretty critical for this army composition - stalker/sentry, so it seems like a fine trade to me. Furthermore, the observer can be sniped (raven gives terran free detection), and the forge is going to be used for that +1 (I don't include costs for the +1, because you can cut two units from your army and it will be fine).
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On September 04 2010 11:15 kandalf wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 11:09 GSang wrote: i think this is weak against gnial's opening for pvt any comments? I had this thought too. However, I'm not sure how "weak" it is. I mean, it's possible that the lack of early concussive lets protoss cripple the terran. I think that it's most likely that the build for terran gets slightly delayed by the earlier concussive, and that the terran player loses a unit or two. Thus, Gnial's opening may be a viable way of delaying/weakening the early push. So I think the quick stalker push could be good, but I I think the void ray followup may not be very effective vs. this build. Edit: My friend started doing this opening, and I plan on trying the day9 fast stalker opening against it. I'll tell you how it goes. I'm only high plat, but I think the way to exploit this 3-1-2 is to start with quick stalker harass one-gate core style, and then expo quickly. I think that if you can figure out a way to defend the push, you will have an economic advantage - you can put down your third after defending. The protoss army should be mainly stalkers (10-15), with a couple sentries and a very small number of zealots, if any. Spectating a game or two, it looked like zealots are rather useless for defending the second push, although they are pretty useful for defending the initial poke. I'm not sure if a robo is a necessity. It might be better to get a forge before expanding, start the +1 after expanding, and put down a cannon or two at your expo for detection. IMO the issue with observers is that the terran has little problem sniping it due to the large number of marines in the push. Some theorycrafting: -The observer route costs 200/200 for the robotics, and 25/75 for the observer, so 225/275 -The forge route costs 450 minerals for the cannons, 150 for the forge, so 600 minerals So, it's 375 more minerals, and 275 less gas. I think gas is pretty critical for this army composition - stalker/sentry, so it seems like a fine trade to me. Furthermore, the observer can be sniped (raven gives terran free detection), and the forge is going to be used for that +1 (I don't include costs for the +1, because you can cut two units from your army and it will be fine).
All these assumptions based on "what seems right" is always the wrong way to ever analyze a build. There are so many weaknesses to what you just posted, and even on paper there are too many flaws. You are just pulling out a stalker count out of your ass(10-15, like really?), and speculating that cannons are better than obs(which is one of the worst things to do, static defense gives Terran full map control, as well as making cloak banshees impossible to deal with).
Oh and zealots are probably the most important unit to beating this build, which is why I'm starting to like the idea of getting a techlab for marauder production if I know there are no stargates. You have it completely backwards, zealots are almost useless vs the poke since 3 maruaders, marine, hellion can kite them so easily or just target fire the low stalker count while kiting.
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On September 04 2010 11:43 superbabosheki wrote:
All these assumptions based on "what seems right" is always the wrong way to ever analyze a build. There are so many weaknesses to what you just posted, and even on paper there are too many flaws. You are just pulling out a stalker count out of your ass(10-15, like really?), and speculating that cannons are better than obs(which is one of the worst things to do, static defense gives Terran full map control, as well as making cloak banshees impossible to deal with).
I'm not suggesting to totally forgo the observer. I was just saying it might be better to start with cannons, and then get up the robotics as resources permit. Sure you're giving up some map control, but you can expand pretty safely. Then, once you get your observer out, you can go about trying to regain map cotnrol. Is it possible to keep an observer alive initially? Probably. It just must required a lot of micro. I just watched a low-mid diamond player fail two times in a row to keep it alive, and he lost both times to the cloaked banshees. Thus I am presenting the possibility of cannons - whether it actually could work I do not know.
Furthermore, I didn't mean to imply that you should go for a ton of zealots right away. I was just saying that they from what I understand they should be represented somewhat in the initial army composition for protoss.
Edit:
Perhaps you could share what you have found effective against your build?
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Just chiming in to say thanks to the OP. I have a few TvP openings but this one feels pretty strong. I feel like it suffers the same counters to standard Marine/Tank/Raven in that mass charge zealots (with stalkers mixed in) wipe out your marines far too quickly for the banshees to do their job. Regardless, I like opening this way now.
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I'm trying to get this build down but I'm having trouble with having enough minerals, do you cut scvs? Or do you take your 2nd gas much later or something?
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Don't build the other two barracks until you've got that 2nd starport going, as long as you don't que units, you should have plenty of minerals to get to that point.
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Congratulations on getting top 200 in North America.
194 Terran hyungbean
I have used your build several times at the low diamond level and it has worked extremely well 4-5 times.The only difficulty I had was against a 1 gas 6 gate protoss who pushed when warp gates came up. The number of zealots was overwhelming.
I was wondering if you would be willing to post a good TvT or TvZ guide.
Thanks
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On September 04 2010 18:17 Jengo wrote: Congratulations on getting top 200 in North America.
194 Terran hyungbean
I have used your build several times at the low diamond level and it has worked extremely well 4-5 times.The only difficulty I had was against a 1 gas 6 gate protoss who pushed when warp gates came up. The number of zealots was overwhelming.
I was wondering if you would be willing to post a good TvT or TvZ guide.
Thanks Wtf I'm still top 200? I do like 2 ladder games a day.
TvT is too complicated and has too many deviations from scouting to make a guide out of, and is my worst matchup by far(but I'm working on it!), and I am too good mannered to make a TvZ guide =]
If you see such an all in play from protoss all you need is a bunker while researching cloak D:
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On September 03 2010 04:00 kNyTTyM wrote: you can support 6 production facilities off of 1 base!? Marines cost 50 minerals, hellions cost 100. You are producing out of 3 raxes and 1 factory that is only 250/0 a cycle, very low cost basically. Basically 4 out of 6 production facilities are cheap as heck.
Banshees are 300/200 and take very long to build.[/QUOTE]
Not played live with this yet, but been testing the timings v the comp. and for every 2 banshees that pop you get 6 marines and 2 hellions, so 1 full cycle is 800/200. I did note that there is a lot of gas so have looked @ the timing needed for the gas to get more cash up, still working on it to find the sweet spot.
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I tried to yabot this (based on your perfect timing replay against bronze guy) but with only 15 steps allowed it's not currently possible
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MrCon, I just excluded the units....it's the best you could do with 15 steps.
100 (i) Terran 3/1/2 | 1 | hyungbean | This is a 1 marine 3 marauder 1 hellion poke that transitions into an army built from a total of 3 raxes, 2 starports, 1 factory. (/i) (s) 10 0 0 -1 1 0 15 0 | 12 0 0 -1 1 0 1 0 | 13 0 0 -1 1 0 12 0 | 15 0 0 -1 1 2 0 0 | 16 0 0 -1 1 1 5 0 | 16 0 0 -1 1 0 16 0 | 19 0 0 -1 1 1 4 0 | 20 0 0 -1 1 0 5 0 | 21 0 0 -1 1 0 12 0 | 24 0 0 -1 1 0 15 0 | 27 0 0 -1 1 3 15 0 | 31 0 0 -1 1 0 14 0 | 33 0 0 -1 1 0 1 0 | 33 0 0 -1 1 0 1 0 | 35 0 0 -1 1 0 14 0 (/s)
replace the () with []
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On September 05 2010 02:57 Newtybar wrote: MrCon, I just excluded the units....
Good idea, thank you
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Thanx for the new reps, keep them coming !
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Just played a game where I messed up the BO and still almost won... my opponent went 1 gate robo into immortals. Had an immortal by the time my initial poke reached, and while I kited and killed 3 zealots, the initial resource loss was in his favor.
I saw that he took an expo immediately after, went with a handful of marines and banshees (no raven..) and was able to kill his expo, but he ran his army and reinforced with a colosi and was able to squash me there.
My third attack, now consisting of the full make up of units was just smashed. He had colosi, phoenix and stalkers. I botched the PDD, but the colosi had their way with me anyway.
Thoughts on what to do vs 1 gate robo?
Replay: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/72683-1v1-terran-protoss-xelnaga-caverns
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Follow the build gas way to early and 1 starport missing :D
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On September 06 2010 01:52 Dadant wrote:Follow the build gas way to early and 1 starport missing :D
I know I messed up the build :[
I thought even if I had even 1-2 more banshees it wouldn't have made a diff... though gas way too early is true :X
*facepalm*
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First off, this build is an all-in. If P can expand and hold off the attack, T has essentially lost.
Secondly, this build will absolutely lose to a well-executed FE build from P. Anything involving ravens or banshees hits way too late to catch a FE build at a fragile stage.
It would be nice if some T players could churn up some guides on builds that involve expanding....
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On September 06 2010 02:10 kcdc wrote: First off, this build is an all-in. If P can expand and hold off the attack, T has essentially lost.
Secondly, this build will absolutely lose to a well-executed FE build from P. Anything involving ravens or banshees hits way too late to catch a FE build at a fragile stage.
It would be nice if some T players could churn up some guides on builds that involve expanding....
I second this, im sure people win with this because they catch people off guard. The only problem is that when it fails you are in a terrible position.
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On September 06 2010 02:42 Gecko wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 02:10 kcdc wrote: First off, this build is an all-in. If P can expand and hold off the attack, T has essentially lost.
Secondly, this build will absolutely lose to a well-executed FE build from P. Anything involving ravens or banshees hits way too late to catch a FE build at a fragile stage.
It would be nice if some T players could churn up some guides on builds that involve expanding.... I second this, im sure people win with this because they catch people off guard. The only problem is that when it fails you are in a terrible position. I sort of beg to differ. If my push fails, it has only been one game where I was in a bad spot and lost. I've found myself delaying the push by just a bit and throwin a tech lab on the rax for stim on my marines to kite zealots better and eat up immortal shields.
The most trouble I have is vs 4 gate. Sadly its the only protoss opening i really lose to at 900 some points diamond. Just like I lose to 1 base roach even when I scout it, I still go reapers like an idiot some games.
I've found if and when they do FE, it opens you up to harass with banshees, and bunker contain their front. You can cause enough mayhem with cloak if they skip OB's, or even if they don't. I go for pylons, probes, anything that makes them delay. I can put up enough with my expo that goes up once I leave my base with 2 banshees. I usually dual tech lab for maurder/marine/banshee/raven contains.
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On September 06 2010 02:10 kcdc wrote: First off, this build is an all-in. If P can expand and hold off the attack, T has essentially lost.
Secondly, this build will absolutely lose to a well-executed FE build from P. Anything involving ravens or banshees hits way too late to catch a FE build at a fragile stage.
It would be nice if some T players could churn up some guides on builds that involve expanding....
I guess if you consider anything thats not a FE an all in then this build is definitely all in. In now way is this build an all in. You can easily skip two cycles of marines hellions and have enough cash to bunker and expand. Its also a highly transitional build as you can easily switch tech by shifting a few buildings.
To say if the P can expand and hold off the attack is a ridiculous assumption because if a P is FE they are going to get destroyed by the poke easily.
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On September 06 2010 16:25 Jengo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 02:10 kcdc wrote: First off, this build is an all-in. If P can expand and hold off the attack, T has essentially lost.
Secondly, this build will absolutely lose to a well-executed FE build from P. Anything involving ravens or banshees hits way too late to catch a FE build at a fragile stage.
It would be nice if some T players could churn up some guides on builds that involve expanding.... I guess if you consider anything thats not a FE an all in then this build is definitely all in. In now way is this build an all in. You can easily skip two cycles of marines hellions and have enough cash to bunker and expand. Its also a highly transitional build as you can easily switch tech by shifting a few buildings. To say if the P can expand and hold off the attack is a ridiculous assumption because if a P is FE they are going to get destroyed by the poke easily. Good post.
I do feel that Protoss can actually 1 gate expo IF the terran doesn't bring an SCV to build a bunker in that situation(protoss can't engage the terran's poke units until the gateways after nexus are operational). The timing of the first raven push is also going to probably be around the same time Toss gets his techtree or gateway count up, leaving him very exposed. An scv all-in is almost impossible to stop since zealots instantly become useless(only all-in vs a FE toss if you know you can't catch up!).
People don't seem to understand how easy it is to transition with this build. You have access to 3 raxes, 2 ports, 1 fact, two tech labs. Once the first raven push ends you can lift around and do almost anything from bunker/tank expo to 3 rax marauder, 2 port medivac with 4-6 raxes added once the expo is operational.
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I want to thank hyungbean for this build, as TvP was my worst match-up. Now it's helped me over the 1000 rating hump.<3
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On September 06 2010 17:15 superbabosheki wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 16:25 Jengo wrote:On September 06 2010 02:10 kcdc wrote: First off, this build is an all-in. If P can expand and hold off the attack, T has essentially lost.
Secondly, this build will absolutely lose to a well-executed FE build from P. Anything involving ravens or banshees hits way too late to catch a FE build at a fragile stage.
It would be nice if some T players could churn up some guides on builds that involve expanding.... I guess if you consider anything thats not a FE an all in then this build is definitely all in. In now way is this build an all in. You can easily skip two cycles of marines hellions and have enough cash to bunker and expand. Its also a highly transitional build as you can easily switch tech by shifting a few buildings. To say if the P can expand and hold off the attack is a ridiculous assumption because if a P is FE they are going to get destroyed by the poke easily. Good post. I do feel that Protoss can actually 1 gate expo IF the terran doesn't bring an SCV to build a bunker in that situation(protoss can't engage the terran's poke units until the gateways after nexus are operational). The timing of the first raven push is also going to probably be around the same time Toss gets his techtree or gateway count up, leaving him very exposed. An scv all-in is almost impossible to stop since zealots instantly become useless(only all-in vs a FE toss if you know you can't catch up!). People don't seem to understand how easy it is to transition with this build. You have access to 3 raxes, 2 ports, 1 fact, two tech labs. Once the first raven push ends you can lift around and do almost anything from bunker/tank expo to 3 rax marauder, 2 port medivac with 4-6 raxes added once the expo is operational.
Perhaps you're not facing good Protoss FE's....you absolutely cannot bust a 1-gate expand with 3 barracks of units and an scv for a bunker. I've played that out probably 20 times, and it's ugly for T. As for the raven timing being a point when a FE P is vulnerable.....you clearly don't have much experience against the PvT FE build....
Also, we understand that you have a lot of production buildings with this build, so you can make the 'right' units. You just don't have an economy. Any expansion after a push with a raven is by definition a late expansion.
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how in the world is this build all-in? it starts out as a very safe and solid 1-1-1 build and at no point in time you cut economy. you punish any greedy protoss play with the poke and if you want to expand you can do so before the protoss does, namely while you are pushing out (when the two banshees are done). from there on you can transition into any unit composition you like, either full bio/medi or biomech or even continue building banshees.
nevertheless, i wrote down the BO as exactly as i could based on the replay which had the best execution:
supply count assumes scout-scv does not die.
10/11 Depot 12/19 Barracks 13/19 Gas #1 15/19 OC, Marine 16/19 Depot, Techlab (ASAP when Marine finishes) 17/27 Marauder (ASAP when Techlab done, continue Marauder production until three, research shells when third Marauder starts) 20/27 Factory (ASAP when 100 gas are available), Gas #2 21/27 Marauder 24/27 Depot (very important Depot) 25/27 Marauder 27/27 Concussive Shells 27/35 Hellion (ASAP when Factory done, rally onto Marauder) 30/35 Go (ASAP when third Marauder is done), Starport 31/35 Depot (at this point 3 Marauders, 1 Marine and 1 Hellion should arrive at your opponent to scout / do a little damage) ~32/35 two additional Barracks (from here on build Depots as needed, depends on how many of your initial poke units die) - switch Starport to Techlab of first Barracks - Raven - second Starport (build Techlab for it on Factory) - Raven about halfway done: start pumping Marines from three Barracks - Raven done: 2 Banshees, keep pumping Hellions and Marines - Banshees done: Go (you should have about 70 supply) - continue pumping units from all six structures OR expand while attacking and switch addons around preparing for a longer game (depending on situation)
optional: research cloak in between, especially if you manage to snipe your opponent's first observer (or if he has no robotics at all)
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On September 07 2010 00:47 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 17:15 superbabosheki wrote:On September 06 2010 16:25 Jengo wrote:On September 06 2010 02:10 kcdc wrote: First off, this build is an all-in. If P can expand and hold off the attack, T has essentially lost.
Secondly, this build will absolutely lose to a well-executed FE build from P. Anything involving ravens or banshees hits way too late to catch a FE build at a fragile stage.
It would be nice if some T players could churn up some guides on builds that involve expanding.... I guess if you consider anything thats not a FE an all in then this build is definitely all in. In now way is this build an all in. You can easily skip two cycles of marines hellions and have enough cash to bunker and expand. Its also a highly transitional build as you can easily switch tech by shifting a few buildings. To say if the P can expand and hold off the attack is a ridiculous assumption because if a P is FE they are going to get destroyed by the poke easily. Good post. I do feel that Protoss can actually 1 gate expo IF the terran doesn't bring an SCV to build a bunker in that situation(protoss can't engage the terran's poke units until the gateways after nexus are operational). The timing of the first raven push is also going to probably be around the same time Toss gets his techtree or gateway count up, leaving him very exposed. An scv all-in is almost impossible to stop since zealots instantly become useless(only all-in vs a FE toss if you know you can't catch up!). People don't seem to understand how easy it is to transition with this build. You have access to 3 raxes, 2 ports, 1 fact, two tech labs. Once the first raven push ends you can lift around and do almost anything from bunker/tank expo to 3 rax marauder, 2 port medivac with 4-6 raxes added once the expo is operational. Perhaps you're not facing good Protoss FE's....you absolutely cannot bust a 1-gate expand with 3 barracks of units and an scv for a bunker. I've played that out probably 20 times, and it's ugly for T. As for the raven timing being a point when a FE P is vulnerable.....you clearly don't have much experience against the PvT FE build.... Also, we understand that you have a lot of production buildings with this build, so you can make the 'right' units. You just don't have an economy. Any expansion after a push with a raven is by definition a late expansion.
I'd have to half way agree. 1 gate FE is my friends (900-1kdiamond) strat, and my poke failed miserably to a couple zealots and his probe swarm. To counter it, I just delayed my push a bit and made my own expansion and got a medivac. Banshees at one base, couple maurders and marines in the minerals of his main. You can make that protoss pay for fast expoing, while safely expoing and protecting yourself.
You have to, in some way, harm the protoss for fast expoing. If you don't, the dual chrono boost throws their macro into high gear and they can over come you with 4-5 gates. But, even still, I've faced a couple 1 gate FE protoss with this, and haven't lost to one yet.
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On September 06 2010 02:10 kcdc wrote: First off, this build is an all-in. If P can expand and hold off the attack, T has essentially lost.
Secondly, this build will absolutely lose to a well-executed FE build from P. Anything involving ravens or banshees hits way too late to catch a FE build at a fragile stage.
It would be nice if some T players could churn up some guides on builds that involve expanding....
Just like Jengo said: this isnt an all-in.
Youre somewhat right at one thing though: 'IF P can expand and hold off the attack, T has essentially lost.' The only problem is: This build is especially designed to counter a FE from the P.
If you, for whatever reason, cant destroy P in the period of time this build covers, you can still transition in whatever counters the units the P invested in.
Expansion-Builds are abundantly (sorry if I spelled that incorrect...) available on Liquipedia: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Terran_Strategy
Plz give this build a chance, it works.
See ya!
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All I have to say is, OMG this build rox, I tried it on 2 different protoss friends who usually win about half of the games we play against eachother.. the first one I beat twice, then he went OMG NERF RAVEN THIS IS SO IMBA and rage-quit battlenet, the other one I beat 9 times in a row before he finally managed to win, he owned my first push by forcefielding behind my army in the ramp and then killing my units with zealots.. he then mostly got zealots and a stalker or two.. I tried going some vikings because i had to do something, I guess maybe i should have added some tech labs for marauders to kite his zealots.. Anyways we stoped playing after this maybe I just played bad that game.. Anyways this strategy is the best TvP strategy I've ever seen
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To ppl saying this build is all in, its not. In SC2 terrans can recover from heavy economic disadvantages simply because they have mules. As a protoss who used to have a 50% winrate vs a terran friend of mine (we're both 900 diamond), now even when I tell him to specifically use this build only and I try to hard counter it, I've only won 1 out of like 5 games and that was cuz he messed up. I have no idea how to beat him when he does it. Fortunately I've never played a terran even close to as good as he is so so far it hasnt hurt my PvT winrate. But I suspect when i get to 1k+ or 1k1+ then terrans will actually be decent.
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On September 07 2010 00:47 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 17:15 superbabosheki wrote:On September 06 2010 16:25 Jengo wrote:On September 06 2010 02:10 kcdc wrote: First off, this build is an all-in. If P can expand and hold off the attack, T has essentially lost.
Secondly, this build will absolutely lose to a well-executed FE build from P. Anything involving ravens or banshees hits way too late to catch a FE build at a fragile stage.
It would be nice if some T players could churn up some guides on builds that involve expanding.... I guess if you consider anything thats not a FE an all in then this build is definitely all in. In now way is this build an all in. You can easily skip two cycles of marines hellions and have enough cash to bunker and expand. Its also a highly transitional build as you can easily switch tech by shifting a few buildings. To say if the P can expand and hold off the attack is a ridiculous assumption because if a P is FE they are going to get destroyed by the poke easily. Good post. I do feel that Protoss can actually 1 gate expo IF the terran doesn't bring an SCV to build a bunker in that situation(protoss can't engage the terran's poke units until the gateways after nexus are operational). The timing of the first raven push is also going to probably be around the same time Toss gets his techtree or gateway count up, leaving him very exposed. An scv all-in is almost impossible to stop since zealots instantly become useless(only all-in vs a FE toss if you know you can't catch up!). People don't seem to understand how easy it is to transition with this build. You have access to 3 raxes, 2 ports, 1 fact, two tech labs. Once the first raven push ends you can lift around and do almost anything from bunker/tank expo to 3 rax marauder, 2 port medivac with 4-6 raxes added once the expo is operational. Perhaps you're not facing good Protoss FE's....you absolutely cannot bust a 1-gate expand with 3 barracks of units and an scv for a bunker. I've played that out probably 20 times, and it's ugly for T. As for the raven timing being a point when a FE P is vulnerable.....you clearly don't have much experience against the PvT FE build.... Also, we understand that you have a lot of production buildings with this build, so you can make the 'right' units. You just don't have an economy. Any expansion after a push with a raven is by definition a late expansion.
You do realize that holding off 3 maruaders, 1 marine, and 1 hellion is nearly impossible with one gateway since you need a sentry to stall. The poke will come after you plant your nexus so you will either have to cancel or hope to god he doesn't build a bunker under your ramp.
I don't know what you mean by good protoss FE's but I played vs quite a few above 1k.
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super, I know this build is insanely good, you can stop defending it. Just tell a sad P a decent way to play against it so that if I am the better player, I would have a good chance of winning.
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Did anyone try to use feedback in combination with force fielding the ramp as defense against it? I mean the Raven the Pdd and the banshees can all be the target of feedback. These seem to be the most important units in the push. Storm then would be the logical conclusion for the later stages of the game because the enemy is very marine heavy. So in theory this might work.
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On September 07 2010 02:47 Doppelganger wrote: Did anyone try to use feedback in combination with force fielding the ramp as defense against it? I mean the Raven the Pdd and the banshees can all be the target of feedback. These seem to be the most important units in the push. Storm then would be the logical conclusion for the later stages of the game because the enemy is very marine heavy. So in theory this might work.
My friend used feedback on my raven before I got to put out PDD but I still beat his army I guess he used too much resources to tech into that fast HT's
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I'm losing after the poke ends to all in attacks even if I do damage. It hits before the raven gets up and usually kills me outright. I've put up two bunkers and he HAS busted through that before. That window is where I usually lose.
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On September 07 2010 02:38 superbabosheki wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2010 00:47 kcdc wrote:On September 06 2010 17:15 superbabosheki wrote:On September 06 2010 16:25 Jengo wrote:On September 06 2010 02:10 kcdc wrote: First off, this build is an all-in. If P can expand and hold off the attack, T has essentially lost.
Secondly, this build will absolutely lose to a well-executed FE build from P. Anything involving ravens or banshees hits way too late to catch a FE build at a fragile stage.
It would be nice if some T players could churn up some guides on builds that involve expanding.... I guess if you consider anything thats not a FE an all in then this build is definitely all in. In now way is this build an all in. You can easily skip two cycles of marines hellions and have enough cash to bunker and expand. Its also a highly transitional build as you can easily switch tech by shifting a few buildings. To say if the P can expand and hold off the attack is a ridiculous assumption because if a P is FE they are going to get destroyed by the poke easily. Good post. I do feel that Protoss can actually 1 gate expo IF the terran doesn't bring an SCV to build a bunker in that situation(protoss can't engage the terran's poke units until the gateways after nexus are operational). The timing of the first raven push is also going to probably be around the same time Toss gets his techtree or gateway count up, leaving him very exposed. An scv all-in is almost impossible to stop since zealots instantly become useless(only all-in vs a FE toss if you know you can't catch up!). People don't seem to understand how easy it is to transition with this build. You have access to 3 raxes, 2 ports, 1 fact, two tech labs. Once the first raven push ends you can lift around and do almost anything from bunker/tank expo to 3 rax marauder, 2 port medivac with 4-6 raxes added once the expo is operational. Perhaps you're not facing good Protoss FE's....you absolutely cannot bust a 1-gate expand with 3 barracks of units and an scv for a bunker. I've played that out probably 20 times, and it's ugly for T. As for the raven timing being a point when a FE P is vulnerable.....you clearly don't have much experience against the PvT FE build.... Also, we understand that you have a lot of production buildings with this build, so you can make the 'right' units. You just don't have an economy. Any expansion after a push with a raven is by definition a late expansion. You do realize that holding off 3 maruaders, 1 marine, and 1 hellion is nearly impossible with one gateway since you need a sentry to stall. The poke will come after you plant your nexus so you will either have to cancel or hope to god he doesn't build a bunker under your ramp. I don't know what you mean by good protoss FE's but I played vs quite a few above 1k.
You can stop the first poke dead cold with just 2 Zealots 3 Stalkers. You're in denial about your strat, it's an all in build with no transition. If the Protoss 1 Gate FE, your 10 minute push will do absolutely nothing to him since he has 4 Warpgates + Probes and way more resources than you. The only way you can win is with the first poke, but that all comes down to micro, and if you wanna gamble all your chips on winning on a single moment of clicking, go ahead.
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On September 07 2010 02:38 superbabosheki wrote: You do realize that holding off 3 maruaders, 1 marine, and 1 hellion is nearly impossible with one gateway since you need a sentry to stall.
No it's not, and you don't need a sentry.
I tried in the unit tester and I can only beat 2 zealot 3 stalker if I kill the stalkers and kite the zealots for ages, but in a real game they'd just get another stalker.
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On September 07 2010 05:06 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2010 02:38 superbabosheki wrote: You do realize that holding off 3 maruaders, 1 marine, and 1 hellion is nearly impossible with one gateway since you need a sentry to stall.
No it's not, and you don't need a sentry. If you are building a nexus while the poke is coming, yes it is. And you do need a sentry to stall for ia few extra units in a normal situation(1 gate robo, no exposed nexus)
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Open field, 2 zealots 3 stalkers vs 1hellion1marine3marauder. How? 1 gate robo will have the same number of units + cliff advantage so again, no sentry is needed.
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On September 07 2010 05:09 superbabosheki wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2010 05:06 Yaotzin wrote:On September 07 2010 02:38 superbabosheki wrote: You do realize that holding off 3 maruaders, 1 marine, and 1 hellion is nearly impossible with one gateway since you need a sentry to stall.
No it's not, and you don't need a sentry. If you are building a nexus while the poke is coming, yes it is. And you do need a sentry to stall for ia few extra units in a normal situation(1 gate robo, no exposed nexus)
You've never encountered kcdc's 1 Gateway FE. His FE is based on a 4 Warpgate build with economy strength. The 1st gate way is constantly chronos boosted while he makes units. You're both on even ground, and in worse case scenario you both trade.
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On September 07 2010 05:10 Yaotzin wrote: Open field, 2 zealots 3 stalkers vs 1hellion1marine3marauder. How? 1 gate robo will have the same number of units + cliff advantage so again, no sentry is needed. I was referring to the 1 gate FE build where a Nexus is planted. And I have yet to see 2 zel and 3 stalkers by the time my poke comes in off ONE GATEWAY. Toss usually has 4 units total with the fourth just coming out, which is why a sentry is needed to stall.
There is no cliff advantage if a nexus is planted. In fact that favors terran with a mini arc on the bottom of the ramp.
On September 07 2010 05:17 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2010 05:09 superbabosheki wrote:On September 07 2010 05:06 Yaotzin wrote:On September 07 2010 02:38 superbabosheki wrote: You do realize that holding off 3 maruaders, 1 marine, and 1 hellion is nearly impossible with one gateway since you need a sentry to stall.
No it's not, and you don't need a sentry. If you are building a nexus while the poke is coming, yes it is. And you do need a sentry to stall for ia few extra units in a normal situation(1 gate robo, no exposed nexus) You've never encountered kcdc's 1 Gateway FE. His FE is based on a 4 Warpgate build with economy strength. The 1st gate way is constantly chronos boosted while he makes units. You're both on even ground, and in worse case scenario you both trade. Watch every single one of my replays before you say I haven't played vs that build.
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On September 07 2010 05:20 superbabosheki wrote: I was referring to the 1 gate FE build where a Nexus is planted.
Good, me too.
And I have yet to see 2 zel and 3 stalkers by the time my poke comes in off ONE GATEWAY.
Play less greedy FE'ers? I dunno I'd guess they aren't chronoing their gateway.
Toss usually has 4 units total with the fourth just coming out, which is why a sentry is needed to stall.
I'm not interested in what other people have. I have 2 zealots and 3 stalkers and I'm curious how you think you can win that fight. I tested it in YABOT and compared the timing to one of your replays FYI, I did not pull it out my ass. 2 zealots/2 stalkers (third walking down the ramp) in front of my nexus on steppes. I could tighten up, I only did it once and I'm tired.
There is no cliff advantage if a nexus is planted. In fact that favors terran with a mini arc on the bottom of the ramp.
Yes I was referring to the 1gate robo situation, saying it's the same + you have your cliff.
Don't get me wrong that push can absolutely punish greedy people, but it can't kill an FE designed for solidity.
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On September 07 2010 05:20 superbabosheki wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2010 05:10 Yaotzin wrote: Open field, 2 zealots 3 stalkers vs 1hellion1marine3marauder. How? 1 gate robo will have the same number of units + cliff advantage so again, no sentry is needed. I was referring to the 1 gate FE build where a Nexus is planted. And I have yet to see 2 zel and 3 stalkers by the time my poke comes in off ONE GATEWAY. Toss usually has 4 units total with the fourth just coming out, which is why a sentry is needed to stall. There is no cliff advantage if a nexus is planted. In fact that favors terran with a mini arc on the bottom of the ramp. Show nested quote +On September 07 2010 05:17 superstartran wrote:On September 07 2010 05:09 superbabosheki wrote:On September 07 2010 05:06 Yaotzin wrote:On September 07 2010 02:38 superbabosheki wrote: You do realize that holding off 3 maruaders, 1 marine, and 1 hellion is nearly impossible with one gateway since you need a sentry to stall.
No it's not, and you don't need a sentry. If you are building a nexus while the poke is coming, yes it is. And you do need a sentry to stall for ia few extra units in a normal situation(1 gate robo, no exposed nexus) You've never encountered kcdc's 1 Gateway FE. His FE is based on a 4 Warpgate build with economy strength. The 1st gate way is constantly chronos boosted while he makes units. You're both on even ground, and in worse case scenario you both trade. Watch every single one of my replays before you say I haven't played vs that build.
I've played versus your build all the time, it's not hard to beat. Your build is an all in with no transition, the first poke is easy to beat, you just shoot Mauraders while running Zealots at him. The Helion dies pretty fast. You beat the 10 minute push your set back tons of gas (2 Banshee and Raven die easily), and then the Toss proceeds to go roflstomp your ass.
None of them Chronosboosted their Gateway to get units out, that is the point of Chronos boosting, so you have extra units to hold off any early harass. One of them expoed at 24 IIRC, which is ultra greedy.
kcdc's build is designed to beat Raven pushes like this, so I have no idea why you say this "beats" FE builds. As long as you don't play ultra greedy, you should beat every T. The only reason to be ultra greedy vs T is if you think he will FE, then you can expo at 24. Otherwise get units out first then expo.
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Isn't it suppose to be beanhyung?
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On September 07 2010 02:38 superbabosheki wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2010 00:47 kcdc wrote:On September 06 2010 17:15 superbabosheki wrote:On September 06 2010 16:25 Jengo wrote:On September 06 2010 02:10 kcdc wrote: First off, this build is an all-in. If P can expand and hold off the attack, T has essentially lost.
Secondly, this build will absolutely lose to a well-executed FE build from P. Anything involving ravens or banshees hits way too late to catch a FE build at a fragile stage.
It would be nice if some T players could churn up some guides on builds that involve expanding.... I guess if you consider anything thats not a FE an all in then this build is definitely all in. In now way is this build an all in. You can easily skip two cycles of marines hellions and have enough cash to bunker and expand. Its also a highly transitional build as you can easily switch tech by shifting a few buildings. To say if the P can expand and hold off the attack is a ridiculous assumption because if a P is FE they are going to get destroyed by the poke easily. Good post. I do feel that Protoss can actually 1 gate expo IF the terran doesn't bring an SCV to build a bunker in that situation(protoss can't engage the terran's poke units until the gateways after nexus are operational). The timing of the first raven push is also going to probably be around the same time Toss gets his techtree or gateway count up, leaving him very exposed. An scv all-in is almost impossible to stop since zealots instantly become useless(only all-in vs a FE toss if you know you can't catch up!). People don't seem to understand how easy it is to transition with this build. You have access to 3 raxes, 2 ports, 1 fact, two tech labs. Once the first raven push ends you can lift around and do almost anything from bunker/tank expo to 3 rax marauder, 2 port medivac with 4-6 raxes added once the expo is operational. Perhaps you're not facing good Protoss FE's....you absolutely cannot bust a 1-gate expand with 3 barracks of units and an scv for a bunker. I've played that out probably 20 times, and it's ugly for T. As for the raven timing being a point when a FE P is vulnerable.....you clearly don't have much experience against the PvT FE build.... Also, we understand that you have a lot of production buildings with this build, so you can make the 'right' units. You just don't have an economy. Any expansion after a push with a raven is by definition a late expansion. You do realize that holding off 3 maruaders, 1 marine, and 1 hellion is nearly impossible with one gateway since you need a sentry to stall. The poke will come after you plant your nexus so you will either have to cancel or hope to god he doesn't build a bunker under your ramp. I don't know what you mean by good protoss FE's but I played vs quite a few above 1k.
Dunno what to tell you....I expand at 30 food and there's no way you're busting my FE with that poke. Especially without stim, the idea is pretty laughable. 2 zealots and 2 stalkers off of one chronoboosted gateway will roll that poke and counter-push you while the expo is finished. We can play it out if you want, but there's just no chance that that tiny push would do any damage.
I'm not gonna argue about it any further tho. If people like the build, that's great. They should use it. We'll see if the style is still popular in a year.
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Yo superstartran, can you post some replays of you beating the build? I'm just curious.
Also if KCDC and someone that is competent in doing the build want to play a game I think it would actually add credibility to the thread / responses instead of all this theorycrafting.
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i am curious how the upcoming warpgate nerf will play into this.
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On September 07 2010 06:40 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2010 02:38 superbabosheki wrote:On September 07 2010 00:47 kcdc wrote:On September 06 2010 17:15 superbabosheki wrote:On September 06 2010 16:25 Jengo wrote:On September 06 2010 02:10 kcdc wrote: First off, this build is an all-in. If P can expand and hold off the attack, T has essentially lost.
Secondly, this build will absolutely lose to a well-executed FE build from P. Anything involving ravens or banshees hits way too late to catch a FE build at a fragile stage.
It would be nice if some T players could churn up some guides on builds that involve expanding.... I guess if you consider anything thats not a FE an all in then this build is definitely all in. In now way is this build an all in. You can easily skip two cycles of marines hellions and have enough cash to bunker and expand. Its also a highly transitional build as you can easily switch tech by shifting a few buildings. To say if the P can expand and hold off the attack is a ridiculous assumption because if a P is FE they are going to get destroyed by the poke easily. Good post. I do feel that Protoss can actually 1 gate expo IF the terran doesn't bring an SCV to build a bunker in that situation(protoss can't engage the terran's poke units until the gateways after nexus are operational). The timing of the first raven push is also going to probably be around the same time Toss gets his techtree or gateway count up, leaving him very exposed. An scv all-in is almost impossible to stop since zealots instantly become useless(only all-in vs a FE toss if you know you can't catch up!). People don't seem to understand how easy it is to transition with this build. You have access to 3 raxes, 2 ports, 1 fact, two tech labs. Once the first raven push ends you can lift around and do almost anything from bunker/tank expo to 3 rax marauder, 2 port medivac with 4-6 raxes added once the expo is operational. Perhaps you're not facing good Protoss FE's....you absolutely cannot bust a 1-gate expand with 3 barracks of units and an scv for a bunker. I've played that out probably 20 times, and it's ugly for T. As for the raven timing being a point when a FE P is vulnerable.....you clearly don't have much experience against the PvT FE build.... Also, we understand that you have a lot of production buildings with this build, so you can make the 'right' units. You just don't have an economy. Any expansion after a push with a raven is by definition a late expansion. You do realize that holding off 3 maruaders, 1 marine, and 1 hellion is nearly impossible with one gateway since you need a sentry to stall. The poke will come after you plant your nexus so you will either have to cancel or hope to god he doesn't build a bunker under your ramp. I don't know what you mean by good protoss FE's but I played vs quite a few above 1k. Dunno what to tell you....I expand at 30 food and there's no way you're busting my FE with that poke. Especially without stim, the idea is pretty laughable. 2 zealots and 2 stalkers off of one chronoboosted gateway will roll that poke and counter-push you while the expo is finished. We can play it out if you want, but there's just no chance that that tiny push would do any damage. I'm not gonna argue about it any further tho. If people like the build, that's great. They should use it. We'll see if the style is still popular in a year.
Funnily enough, I read this post just as someone decided to use the 3-1-2 build against me. If the game is any indication, kcdc's FE build smashes this easily.
Players are both between 900 and 1000 points. Judging from the few replays I downloaded of the OP using this build, my opponent in the replay actually sent the poke and the push a few seconds earlier than the OP.
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On September 07 2010 14:51 iamke55 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2010 06:40 kcdc wrote:On September 07 2010 02:38 superbabosheki wrote:On September 07 2010 00:47 kcdc wrote:On September 06 2010 17:15 superbabosheki wrote:On September 06 2010 16:25 Jengo wrote:On September 06 2010 02:10 kcdc wrote: First off, this build is an all-in. If P can expand and hold off the attack, T has essentially lost.
Secondly, this build will absolutely lose to a well-executed FE build from P. Anything involving ravens or banshees hits way too late to catch a FE build at a fragile stage.
It would be nice if some T players could churn up some guides on builds that involve expanding.... I guess if you consider anything thats not a FE an all in then this build is definitely all in. In now way is this build an all in. You can easily skip two cycles of marines hellions and have enough cash to bunker and expand. Its also a highly transitional build as you can easily switch tech by shifting a few buildings. To say if the P can expand and hold off the attack is a ridiculous assumption because if a P is FE they are going to get destroyed by the poke easily. Good post. I do feel that Protoss can actually 1 gate expo IF the terran doesn't bring an SCV to build a bunker in that situation(protoss can't engage the terran's poke units until the gateways after nexus are operational). The timing of the first raven push is also going to probably be around the same time Toss gets his techtree or gateway count up, leaving him very exposed. An scv all-in is almost impossible to stop since zealots instantly become useless(only all-in vs a FE toss if you know you can't catch up!). People don't seem to understand how easy it is to transition with this build. You have access to 3 raxes, 2 ports, 1 fact, two tech labs. Once the first raven push ends you can lift around and do almost anything from bunker/tank expo to 3 rax marauder, 2 port medivac with 4-6 raxes added once the expo is operational. Perhaps you're not facing good Protoss FE's....you absolutely cannot bust a 1-gate expand with 3 barracks of units and an scv for a bunker. I've played that out probably 20 times, and it's ugly for T. As for the raven timing being a point when a FE P is vulnerable.....you clearly don't have much experience against the PvT FE build.... Also, we understand that you have a lot of production buildings with this build, so you can make the 'right' units. You just don't have an economy. Any expansion after a push with a raven is by definition a late expansion. You do realize that holding off 3 maruaders, 1 marine, and 1 hellion is nearly impossible with one gateway since you need a sentry to stall. The poke will come after you plant your nexus so you will either have to cancel or hope to god he doesn't build a bunker under your ramp. I don't know what you mean by good protoss FE's but I played vs quite a few above 1k. Dunno what to tell you....I expand at 30 food and there's no way you're busting my FE with that poke. Especially without stim, the idea is pretty laughable. 2 zealots and 2 stalkers off of one chronoboosted gateway will roll that poke and counter-push you while the expo is finished. We can play it out if you want, but there's just no chance that that tiny push would do any damage. I'm not gonna argue about it any further tho. If people like the build, that's great. They should use it. We'll see if the style is still popular in a year. Funnily enough, I read this post just as someone decided to use the 3-1-2 build against me. If the game is any indication, kcdc's FE build smashes this easily. Players are both between 900 and 1000 points. Judging from the few replays I downloaded of the OP using this build, my opponent in the replay actually sent the poke and the push a few seconds earlier than the OP.
Uhm, you had two stalkers and two zealots when he hit you. If he microed at all or turned on healthbars, and brought an scv, he woulda smashed your fe. Marauders can move and shoot stalkers while kiting zealots, and once stalkers are gone zealots become worthless.
vs a FE protoss though, would entirely skip first raven, research cloak, build one bunker on my ramp while getting a CC and having only one port after the poke(which obviously scouts it all). The first banshee does have a decent window to do some economic damage. One probe every 3 seconds an observer isn't out.
another option is just to do an immediate CC and transition out of the build when the poke scouts it, which turns it into a standard tvp pretty much(since at this point terran is at 1 rax 1 fact, 1 port, nothing more nothing less). It will just turn into kcdc fe vs 1-1-1. Basically this means the build is actually versatile and can be transitioned out of quite easily, not all-in, just based on decision making.
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do you make a wall in with this build? or a bunker against an early stalker harrass?
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Yup , funny thing about this build is that well microed poke with a SCV neverfailed me , and most of the time end the game before banshees are out , especially in small maps
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On September 07 2010 15:07 superbabosheki wrote: Uhm, you had two stalkers and two zealots when he hit you. If he microed at all or turned on healthbars, and brought an scv, he woulda smashed your fe. Marauders can move and shoot stalkers while kiting zealots, and once stalkers are gone zealots become worthless.
vs a FE protoss though, would entirely skip first raven, research cloak, build one bunker on my ramp while getting a CC and having only one port after the poke(which obviously scouts it all). The first banshee does have a decent window to do some economic damage. One probe every 3 seconds an observer isn't out.
another option is just to do an immediate CC and transition out of the build when the poke scouts it, which turns it into a standard tvp pretty much(since at this point terran is at 1 rax 1 fact, 1 port, nothing more nothing less). It will just turn into kcdc fe vs 1-1-1. Basically this means the build is actually versatile and can be transitioned out of quite easily, not all-in, just based on decision making.
3 marauders, 1 marine and 1 hellion will lose to 2 zealots and 2 stalkers every time. Marauders are the same speed as zealots and have the same range as stalkers. They can either kite the zealots and take fire from the stalkers or shoot the stalkers and take hits from both the zealots and stalkers. In either case, P will win that fight.
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On September 07 2010 20:55 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2010 15:07 superbabosheki wrote: Uhm, you had two stalkers and two zealots when he hit you. If he microed at all or turned on healthbars, and brought an scv, he woulda smashed your fe. Marauders can move and shoot stalkers while kiting zealots, and once stalkers are gone zealots become worthless.
vs a FE protoss though, would entirely skip first raven, research cloak, build one bunker on my ramp while getting a CC and having only one port after the poke(which obviously scouts it all). The first banshee does have a decent window to do some economic damage. One probe every 3 seconds an observer isn't out.
another option is just to do an immediate CC and transition out of the build when the poke scouts it, which turns it into a standard tvp pretty much(since at this point terran is at 1 rax 1 fact, 1 port, nothing more nothing less). It will just turn into kcdc fe vs 1-1-1. Basically this means the build is actually versatile and can be transitioned out of quite easily, not all-in, just based on decision making. 3 marauders, 1 marine and 1 hellion will lose to 2 zealots and 2 stalkers every time. Marauders are the same speed as zealots and have the same range as stalkers. They can either kite the zealots and take fire from the stalkers or shoot the stalkers and take hits from both the zealots and stalkers. In either case, P will win that fight.
You can shoot and scoot (which I'm not that great at) and take out the zealots while out of range of the stalkers then just go in and pound the stalkers. My issue with this build is that I've tried it with probably a 40-50% success rate so far, and the times I get beat seem to usually go like this. My poke arrives, usually doing pretty even damage vs them, but they immediately counter with their next warp in and I only have marines hellions and an uncharged Raven at this point. Their attack lands either right as PDD charges but no ravens yet or when my raven is at 80-90 energy but with a smaller force. Either of these timings with stalker/immortal seems to be devastating because the hellion heavy army is useless vs immortal + stalker. I've actually had more success with this by building 1 tank 1 hellion trading off rather than pure hellions, occasionally pumping a viking instead of a banshee for gas reasons...
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You can't shoot and scoot when stalkers are faster than marauders...
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So far it seems to work good on 2 player maps but horrible on larger maps. I guess the timing is really off when it takes to much time to get to their base.
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On September 08 2010 01:43 Yaotzin wrote: You can't shoot and scoot when stalkers are faster than marauders...
The Stalkers without the Zs can't kill any of your troops unless they focus the marine before the zealots die because of the hellion. At that point its 2 stalkers vs likely 3 half health marauders and a hellion and maybe a marine, T wins, then again about that time P reinforcements come so I just try to take out a few probes.
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On September 08 2010 02:17 Kryptix wrote: The Stalkers without the Zs can't kill any of your troops unless they focus the marine before the zealots die because of the hellion.
This doesn't make sense :/
At that point its 2 stalkers vs likely 3 half health marauders and a hellion and maybe a marine, T wins, then again about that time P reinforcements come so I just try to take out a few probes.
Why would you have 3 half health marauders...P will focus fire and marauders can't run from stalkers..
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yeah, lets see hyungbean vs KCDC ! :D
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On September 08 2010 03:13 eecs4ever wrote: yeah, lets see hyungbean vs KCDC ! :D
+1
Talk is cheap. I'd like to see replay(s) of a best of 3 between these two. That should validate the debating here. I'm not taking sides, but that is the only way to settle this.
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I love builds that are described to work "because Terran is imbalanced." This sounds interesting and I'll try it out.
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I do think the protoss can have ample units... if not more units when they do a FE build with chronoboost on the gateway rather than the warpgate tech. Ive been messing with KCDCs build on YABOT alot lately and I always with end up with a bigger army than any prolonged one base play simply because after the first 3 chronoboosts you are CBing every unit from the gateway. With kcdc's build you will have 2 zealot 2 stalker and a third on the way by the time the push gets to your door on a small map. Throw in 4 probes and the toss will have an expansion up. The push that worries me is the 8 minute 1 raven 2 banshee+marine push w/ leftover hellions. Will the expansion+warp-ins kick in enough to fend that off with gateway units? I'm not entirely sure but I will say this. Every unit in that army mix I just listed dies to stalker. The trick then... is to not let them place the PDD in a place where you cant avoid the clash (your expansion for instance). Additionally, the units that comes with the push dont really include marauders... as least not in all the replays I watched from the original post. The marauders seemed to die with the first push and never get replaced. Marauders with concussive in the 2nd push would make it pretty difficultto kite away the PDD.
TLDR: kcdc's build is good and could probably hold up to this better than the more common openings because of the chronoboost on the gateway. Most openings emphasize getting warpgate a little faster or CBing probes. This one uses CB to mass up a strong ground army... stronger than typical non-FE builds... and then uses later CB's to make up for lost time or secure a macro advantage if the other guy had been cutting SCVs
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On September 08 2010 07:05 micjmac wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2010 03:13 eecs4ever wrote: yeah, lets see hyungbean vs KCDC ! :D +1 Talk is cheap. I'd like to see replay(s) of a best of 3 between these two. That should validate the debating here. I'm not taking sides, but that is the only way to settle this. 1 post weirdo o_o
A bo3 wouldn't solve anything, nobody would do the same build 3 times in a row and it really isn't a debate vs the two builds just the initial poke, I can transition into any form of a 1-1-1 after the poke which serves as a scouting force as well as a pressure move.
Plus we aren't bashing each other at all or anything so it's not really "talk." His build is good, really good in fact, the only one minor problem I have with it is that it is soft-countered by a 1 rax FE, a build that I think quite a few terrans still use as a standard. Two base terran with double mules can pump out so many units it's quite ridiculous.
I do play a lot of protoss and find his build to be really successful vs almost all one base play, but it is pretty hard to pull off when T does the all in stimrush type of play.
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Just like to point out that you can't resolve these things all that well with a direct series since a lot of it is ruined by both of them knowing eachother's builds ahead of time.
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it sounds good but, it sounds like too much of all in where does all the gas come from to run 2 starport DX
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On September 08 2010 20:55 JesseT wrote: it sounds good but, it sounds like too much of all in where does all the gas come from to run 2 starport DX
There's enough gas seeing as everything else is mineral only.
It does seem that an FE will stomp this, but it's like the OP said, you should adapt in that case.
Either way I wouldn't rely on the poke to do much damage to the toss because it seems pretty reliant on both players micro, and at least for T, at the same time as the 'poke' you should be doing a lot of fiddly macro like switching tech labs and at least adding on Rax (if you want to stick to the original build).
I think adapting with your own expansion is the way to go if your poke scouts an FE.
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the build crushed 2k rating korean toss in GSL today, its pretty good I'd say.
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oddly enough I have the hardest time beating proxy stargate play with this build. if the protoss hides a starport the first voidray arrives about the time my raven is halfway done and I have no more than 2-3 marines. i cannot prevent the sucker from charging up and then its game over when the second ray arrives.
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I don't seem to be able to beat KCDC's build actually. If executed properly, he can and will have 4 units up right as the poke arrives.
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What beats KCDCs build!?!?
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Edit: Aside from 1 rax FE
Maybe all in stim rush?
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Quick question:
Fast HT without storm to feedback the PDD? Then morph into Archon and getting storm later?
Don't know if the HT will come out in time or if it will be worth it or anything like that, not much thought was put into it. Just asking a quick question.
Could anyone explain to me why this would not work? Not saying THIS IS THE COUNTER HAHA! Just bringing up a possibility/thought.
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Killing the PDD with sentries or forcing it at a tower or somesuch is probably better than committing to fast tech. You do still need to kill the stuff once the PDD is gone, so you can't sacrifice unit production so much.
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On September 09 2010 07:07 guyGOTgirth wrote: What beats KCDCs build!?!?
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Edit: Aside from 1 rax FE
Maybe all in stim rush?
I'm also stuck in the same rut. I can't seem to beat the FE build for the life of me unless the Protoss messes up royally. The poke seems like a bad idea now since they will have 4 units and you can't possibly kill 4 units with your poke. And retreating isn't an option since stalkers move faster than marauders and marines...
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On September 09 2010 07:07 guyGOTgirth wrote: What beats KCDCs build!?!?
:[
Edit: Aside from 1 rax FE
Maybe all in stim rush?
Take your favorite 1 base all in build and bring the majority of your SCVs with you as you move out. Make sure you send your army ahead of your SCVs to kill any probes so they don't scout it. If you can get to the protoss player's expo before he knows about your SCVs, it is highly unlikely for him to survive as the counter to this is to pull probes from both main and nat, and it will be too late for him unless he scouted what you're doing.
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On September 08 2010 07:05 micjmac wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2010 03:13 eecs4ever wrote: yeah, lets see hyungbean vs KCDC ! :D +1 Talk is cheap. I'd like to see replay(s) of a best of 3 between these two. That should validate the debating here. I'm not taking sides, but that is the only way to settle this. The best part about this strat is the NOT KNOWING IT'S COMING until it's too late. What's the point of playing vs it, if you know it's coming. You're going to change your build to force your zealots and stalkers out, and have fewer probes on two bases.
I have lost 1 time to a toss going FE on a large map (metrapolis cross map). However, beyond that, it's all about scouting and timing. Sometimes I'll delay the raven/banshee push until I have 4 banshees by harassing with the two I have. It's a simple 'look over here as I bunker twice outside your base and then either force you to fight me or get contained and I expo over your face'
Infact, when I attack I usually double expo at the same fucking time and protoss players have yet to be able to bounce back formidably to run up my ramp with the bunker. This strat, even with slight changes (earlier stim) has put me like 12-2 against protoss players. Guy goes fast immortals, dead. Blink stalkers - dead. HT/DTs - dead. Void rays - dead, just make two vikings first and go. The only thing that seems to stand against it is a 4gate all in, or a well WELL executed FE, when they drag probes off the line to fight against the poke. I'd like to see how fast stalkers and zealots are when they are HIT BY SLOW SHELLS, because fuck man, it makes my micro job even easier. 3 maurders eat a stalker in what, 2-3 rounds? Fuckin fast. And say you do trade, you lost what 500 minerals plus 100 gas? I lost 450/75, and it was MEANT to be lost.
The 1 gate FE does work well on a larger map if the terran doesn't bring a couple scvs to bunker you, I know that. Once that expo is up, you're behind a little bit, but banshee harassment can make up for it if your main isn't penetrable.
Edit -- I've found, if and when they beat the raven push that I throw down 3 tech labs and go maurder/banshee if they have no air as I expand. Then, mix in a couple tanks and back to marines if no collsai. Banshees are great at harassing, especially if you're spread out on probes and stalkers. Picking pylons off is my personal pastime.
It's by no means a perfect build, and you are all hung on the fact that the poke is meant to end the game... It's a scouting attack that does damage, is all.
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On September 10 2010 05:22 iamke55 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2010 07:07 guyGOTgirth wrote: What beats KCDCs build!?!?
:[
Edit: Aside from 1 rax FE
Maybe all in stim rush? Take your favorite 1 base all in build and bring the majority of your SCVs with you as you move out. Make sure you send your army ahead of your SCVs to kill any probes so they don't scout it. If you can get to the protoss player's expo before he knows about your SCVs, it is highly unlikely for him to survive as the counter to this is to pull probes from both main and nat, and it will be too late for him unless he scouted what you're doing. Why not just abandon the expo and hold the ramp? Since his econ is gone anyways..
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This build worked great for me once I got it down.
The combination of the strong army + the harass potential of the banshees is really cool
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This is a cool build to watch! Nice to finally see a spell-casting unit (Raven) being put to good use: Well integrated with the overall build strategy and excellent complement to the Banshees. Kinda makes you feel bad for those poor stalkers
As a zerg player, I'd love to see a similar caster-integrated build that makes use of infestors.
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I think you can even do it without a raven. And trade it for an earlier banshee.
The trick is to bunker his expo and bring your poke do a little push and if you get counter bunker up. Most of toss transition to robo , cause they think you go for a standard MMM.
Wait 4 shee and push. You should btw trade these 200 gas for stim and shield
Edit : Replay Added
As you can see the whole thing really needs to be refined and better timed , but the idea is here. After the poke , and the expolock , the toss is forced to spend his cash somewhere. OFC the whole key of the poke build is the suprise effect if a guy know what you are doing he will crush you by countering the poke and proxy your arshe
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What beats KCDCs build!?!?
:[
Edit: Aside from 1 rax FE
Maybe all in stim rush?
I actually beat KCDC with this build, could someone please tell me how to upload a replay im new here :o)
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On September 09 2010 07:07 guyGOTgirth wrote: What beats KCDCs build!?!?
:[
Edit: Aside from 1 rax FE
Maybe all in stim rush?
eh i think my last message was wrong, if someone could PM me how to upload replay i could show replay
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Gotta say that TvP was my worst mathchup, and thanks to this build its actually started working great. I've even started using it in TvT, but with no raven. I basicly force them to get marines since i can get vikings/banshees faster which also can keep them on one base for a long time, or force static defenses, and then transition into battlecruisers which own a marine/tank force.
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4 gate vs this build replay.....
build works well vs all races, just need to scout.
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was that gold level play? interesting to see a fast expo in conjunction with this build but im not sure that would work in diamond level
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post your replay pookie, i'd love to see KCDC get rocked after all the smack/theory craft he put up on this thread.
just go to a replay site, upload it, and post a link.
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People need to stop treating this as a super amazing wtf-win-everything-at-once in TvP build; but rather a nice opening that can get you two solid timing pushes that has a very solid transition.
And before someone says "OMG THIS IS ALL IN THERE IS NO TRANSITION LOLOL", I think an Expo with 3 rax's throwing down Tech Labs, two Starports with Tech Labs and a factory with a tech lab is a solid line up for mid/late game.
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On September 11 2010 22:53 Fruscainte wrote: People need to stop treating this as a super amazing wtf-win-everything-at-once in TvP build; but rather a nice opening that can get you two solid timing pushes that has a very solid transition.
And before someone says "OMG THIS IS ALL IN THERE IS NO TRANSITION LOLOL", I think an Expo with 3 rax's throwing down Tech Labs, two Starports with Tech Labs and a factory with a tech lab is a solid line up for mid/late game. yeah if u watch my replay i added marauders and thors, once ur third is set up u can even start adding battle cruisers and ghosts everything is at ur disposal
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anyone know what build is best for a robo bay stargate opening, should u just throw down tech labs on the barracks or maybe just fast expo if u see this?
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On September 01 2010 15:07 superbabosheki wrote: Because terran is imbalanced, you can actually support all 6 buildings, so just start to pump out triple marine, double banshee, and single hellion.
LOL'd hard. Then I QQ'd when I realized its true and I can never stop this. Oh well, more practice is the only way I suppose.
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so marines are the main unit of this build, i understand that they rape stalker with pdd-support. but last games, the toss just threw in some templ0rs, feedback'd the raven and stormed the shit out of my marines. is this a weakness of the strategy in general, or did i just do something horribly wrong?
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On October 01 2010 22:07 Heavy Note wrote: so marines are the main unit of this build, i understand that they rape stalker with pdd-support. but last games, the toss just threw in some templ0rs, feedback'd the raven and stormed the shit out of my marines. is this a weakness of the strategy in general, or did i just do something horribly wrong?
You might have been late. Getting out Templars with Storm takes quite some time, he probably skipped Robotics to beeline straight for this, which you might have been able to scout. If you had scouted this, you might have adjusted accordingly (research cloak for your banshees, as no robotics means no detection, kill his temps with cloaked banshees and the roll the remains of his force). Watch your replay again
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-Bump-
I love this build. I went from 600-1500 diamond quite fast with 80-90% win ratio against toss with it. Sometimes instead of a marauder poke i use iEchoic's hellion drop which is equally effective. I am so glad that this build hasn't been touched by recent patches and only has gotten stronger since mass zealot is less of a threat.
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I don't really see the point of abusing one build on ladder. At some point you're going to hit a brick wall where people can deal with your build, and then you'll fall apart because your overall play isn't up to scratch. As pointless as 4gating your way to the top, really.
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I've been doing this build quite a bit also, although I usually do quite a bit of adjusting. My build is something along the lines of 2-1-2, forget about the poke as it doesnt work against a good toss, push his nat when you've got 4 banshees, expand meanwhile, start getting upgrades, medivacs etc.
With PDD I can usually force a fight at their expo and most of the time destroy it, which is enough to gain a significant advantage. After that I have my own expo up and running and I can keep pumping marine/banshee, or do a tech switch towards traditional marauder play if I see alot of phoenix or HT.
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On October 16 2010 18:47 Yaotzin wrote: I don't really see the point of abusing one build on ladder. At some point you're going to hit a brick wall where people can deal with your build, and then you'll fall apart because your overall play isn't up to scratch. As pointless as 4gating your way to the top, really.
this build is an opening and has variations if u do it one way all the time then yes there are quite a few protoss builds u can lose against, like any other build u must scout and adjust, if the toss goes stargate robo bay then u should expo not all in push
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On October 16 2010 19:14 Bagi wrote: I've been doing this build quite a bit also, although I usually do quite a bit of adjusting. My build is something along the lines of 2-1-2, forget about the poke as it doesnt work against a good toss, push his nat when you've got 4 banshees, expand meanwhile, start getting upgrades, medivacs etc.
With PDD I can usually force a fight at their expo and most of the time destroy it, which is enough to gain a significant advantage. After that I have my own expo up and running and I can keep pumping marine/banshee, or do a tech switch towards traditional marauder play if I see alot of phoenix or HT.
i kill tosses with the poke, but i keep my scouting scv alive and allow it to leave the toss base when i see the cybernetics core and chronod gateway, i have the scv meander a random part of the map, and before the poke i check to see if a nexus is going up if so then i make a second hellion and bring 3 scvs for the attack, its VERY hard to hold off, i good toss like 1700+ will own u if u let him fast expo even with this powerful build
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