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Zanez' Guide to Fighting Muta/Ling as Protoss
A terrifying image of Protoss Nightmares
Hello all my fellow shield toting, Zergling slicing, Marine mashing, mothership techers out there! It is a pleasure to fight alongside you, even if it is on separate battlefields. I am Zanez... my in-game name is Thrasymachus. Don't bother looking it up, seriously... you will be unimpressed. My points are not high, and my win-rate is meh and my ranking in diamond is questionable. But I have been touring around the forums giving advice to many people for a while now. I have watched just about every high level game there is, and I have analyzed hundreds, if not thousands of replays since I began playing in early beta. Wait until you hear what I have to say before you press the back button due to my ladder ranking... I tour these forums virtually every day, looking for Protoss to help out, and as of late I have noticed an increase in people having trouble with a certain individual strategy in PvZ... Muta-Ling (often transitioning into Ultralisks). I have posted advice on a case by case basis, responding to replays and specific individual problems, but since I keep needing to post the same things over and over again, I felt it would be a good idea to write a more comprehensive guide.
The Guide I am not a mathematician, or any kind of whiz with numbers; not by a long shot. I am currently attending college for writing, so I am about as far away from using numbers in my every day life as one can possibly be. Because of that, I tend to steer clear of the idea that SC2 is an exact science. I have never followed a build order guide based on food values, and I have created 95% of my builds by myself through trial and error. If asked to recall a build order outside of the game, I will stammer and stutter and avoid the question. I believe a guide that locks you into a specific build order, or that uses mathematics will be difficult to recall on the fly. Because of this fact, I will be avoiding numbers in this thread. There will be no build orders, and no advanced damage calculations (except maybe 1). I want you to be able to go through this guide and take something away from it that you can recall in a game when your brain is closed and you are focusing greatly. So I promise you, everything you read here will be so ridiculously simple, you may well be shocked. So without further stalling for time, let's get into the meat.
The Zerg I suppose this is pretty important to explain, as many of you (and indeed me) do not play Zerg regularly or at a high level. I feel that no other strategy is such an all-encompassing perfect example of how Zerg works as much as Ling/Muta - Ultra. So let's explain how they work from a theoretical standpoint. Zerg use Larvae. Simple enough. Because of this they have a hard-cap on the amount of units they can make per hatchery. This includes Drones, Overlords, Buildings and troops. Now this is damn obvious and everyone knows this, but what are the implications of this? Well this means Zerg can build units far faster than any other race. This includes drones. But it also means that every soldier that the Zerg builds means they are not building a drone, and every drone they build is not building a soldier. These are both important concepts to realize, and are so simple it hurts. A Zerg wants to make as many drones as he can get away with. This means that a Zerg who is left alone can make so many drones that their economy runs away and they are pretty much unstoppable. You, as his opponent, want to stop this... Since Zerg have the unique challenge of choosing between Soldiers and Drones, you, as their opponent have the unique advantage of being able to limit the Zerg's drone production by forcing him to build units. Pretty much, what this means, is that Zerg are unstoppable when left to their own thing, and are very vulnerable to pressure. If you force them to keep building units by picking off troops, standing outside their base, and doing minor attacks, you slow them down immensely. This doesn't mean you ever attack them head on, but means you keep them THINKING you will attack them head on. This is not always easy...
Muta-Ling Mindset
You can never have enough...
The purpose of Muta-Ling is to supplement this idea for the Zerg. Both Zerglings and Mutalisks are excellent at harass, and this unit combo works very well at keeping their opponents in their base in a defensive position. While defending, you cannot possibly be attacking or pressuring, and the longer you are defending, the longer the Zerg has to drone like a mofo. It is amazing how as few as five Mutalisks can keep an entire army on the defensive, while the Zerg has nothing but a few spine crawlers defending. When a Zerg is going Ling/Muta he is (1.) minimizing his unit production while (2.)maximizing his damage and (3.)keeping the pressure off the base so he can make a million drones and tech. As a Protoss, the key to dismantling this strategy is to stop one or all of these goals. This means you want to maximize his soldier production (therefore minimizing his drone production) and/or minimize his damage and/or keep pressure on his base. If you are able to do one of these, you will be ok, if you are able to do two of these, you are in seriously good shape and if you are able to pull off all 3, then you have easily won.
So how do we do this? Well where do we begin?
Scouting How do you even know if you are fighting Ling/Muta? The last way you want to find out is to see a bunch of Mutalisks in your Probe line. Well simplest way is obviously to scout him with workers or units, but this can be extremely difficult if the Zerg player is on the ball. First and foremost, you need to keep a mental tally of his gas spending. This will not tell you with 100% certainty that he is going Muta/Ling, but it WILL tell you with 100% certainty that he is NOT going for fast Mutalisks. If you see a lot of non-speed Zerglings, and nothing else, then you know he is minimizing gas spending. If you see a ton of Zerglings with speed he has spent 100 gas. If he has Roach Warren or Baneling nest, he has spent a good chunk of gas that will harm the speed of his Mutalisks. Evolution chambers that are working have spent gas. If you see very little gas spending, this could definitely mean Mutalisks. If you suspect Mutalisks, I recommend NOT getting a Robo Facility for observers to confirm it... I recommend researching Hallucination to scout. Hallucination is cheaper than a Robo Facility + Observer, and because of the lack of Zerg cloaking units, is almost as effective as one when used properly, and has the added benefit of leaving your tech options more open. Hallucination will come out just in time to see the Spire or Hydra Den going up, and if Roaches are on the field, a Robo Facility is just a couple clicks away.
If you see the Spire going up, he is almost assuredly going Ling/Muta. Once you see this, you want to work for Blink and Archons... but not too fast, because if you b-line for it, you won't have the gas and forces to be able to fight his Zerglings.
Upgrades
This is probably the most important part of fighting Ling/Muta... Not an ability upgrade like Psistorm or Extended Thermal Lances, or even Warp Gates, but it is weapons and armor upgrades that will win it for you. Upgrades are relatively expensive, and most Zerg's who go Ling/Muta overlook early upgrades in favor of a quicker Lair, Spire or additional Mutalisk, making your army significantly more deadly than his. Lings do small damage fast and Mutalisks do a x3 bounce attack. This means that armor is super effective against the whole army. Also important to note is that this is further magnified with the effect of Guardian Shield. While GS doesn't affect Zerglings' damage, an armor upgrade + GS makes Mutalisks little more than flying paperweights. Stalkers and Sentries come with a base 1 armor, add a second for an upgrade, and a Guardian Shield, and you end up reducing Mutalisk damage by 4 per hit (reducing total damage from 13 down to 7... that is almost HALF of their base damage). While armor upgrades are extremely valuable, what is far more important however, is that you remain 1 attack upgrade above the Zerg's armor upgrades. This is not to fight the Mutalisks (Mutalisks are already terrible at engagements), but rather to fight the Zerglings. This brings me to my next point...
Zealots
He knocked his block off!
Zealots are probably the MOST important unit for fighting Muta/Ling. After watching a ton of replays, I find one of the problems people have is that they warp in a ton of Stalker/Sentry to handle the Mutalisks, and when they finally get the situation under control, they move out to attack and get completely overrun by Zerglings the moment they leave their base. This is a very common occurrence, and is very easy to avoid. Even a few Zealots destroy Zerglings in large numbers simply by keeping them off your Stalkers, but since Zealots are fairly slow, vulnerable and do nothing against Mutalisks, you want to minimize your Zealot numbers, and for this, you need +1 attack upgrade for your Zealots. It still surprises me just how many Zerglings can be held off by even four or five Zealots with the upgrade, since it changes the number of hits required for a Zealot to kill a Zergling from 3 to 2. Remember that whenever you see Mutalisks, you need to warp in some Zealots... this may seem pretty... dumb, but it will save you many many losses.
Blink Stalkers and Sentry Force Field Stalkers and Sentries are very important to fighting Mutalisks and Zerglings, but their abilities need to be used properly in order to maximize their effect. Force Fields are tricky to use properly, but you want to use it to funnel the Zerglings into engaging your Zealots. Any surface area you remove from your ball of units is very important. Don't be afraid to Blink behind your own Force Fields if they find their way around them. When fighting Mutalisks, Blink can hugely backfire on you, because of a mix of your choked ramp and Mutalisk Mobility. This is one of the most important things I have learned the hard way for fighting Mutalisks with Blink Stalkers... DON'T USE BLINK TO ENGAGE. USE BLINK TO CHASE. Mutalisks have a way of going up and down cliffs and flying between expansions. On maps like Metalopolis, we have all been in a situation where we blink underneath the Mutalisks at your main and they fly just out of range into your natural, leaving you sitting around with your thump up your ass waiting for the Blink to cool down. Stalkers move fast already, so there is no reason to blink within their range. Save your Blink for when he flies away or goes up/down a cliff. This minimizes his damage and maximizes the area your Blink will cover.
Offense vs Defense
You want to eat the cake, right?
Everything up to this point in the guide has been very simple and common sense that almost everyone knows, but just screws up every now and then. This next point is just as simple as the others, but seems to slip the minds of the majority of people who fight Muta/ling: You cannot counter Mutalisks on the defense. ONLY on the offense. Since the realization of this concept, I have won more games vs ling/muta Zergs than I ever thought possible. This is where all the advice in this guide comes together creating the ultimate meat of the guide. Mutalisks are great at attacking. They go up and down cliffs, they can attack weak points, massacre Probes, pick off Pylons, but most importantly they never need to fight your units. They can abuse their speed and sight to avoid any engagement that is unfavorable, including Blink Stalkers and Psistorms. Certainly we have all been in frustrating situations in which we have been chasing around a couple of Mutalisks, and just cannot kill them, because they keep dodging in and out and avoiding confrontation. However, Mutalisks themselves are ultra expensive, have relatively low HP and do very little damage. They are terrible combat units. This is why they avoid confrontation. If they engaged our army head on, we would win every time... so it is a shame we can't force them to fight our army. Or can we? Well thankfully, we can! Pressuring and assaulting the Zerg base accomplishes this nicely. But this may not be easy... The Zerg has a ton of Zerglings and Spine Crawlers in his base preventing you from attacking it. So this assault involves a collection of everything I am talking about here... You need efficient, deadly +1 weapon Zealots and if possible an armor upgrade too. This will handle the Lings and Spine Crawlers nicely and easily and will force him to bring back his Mutalisks to defend 95% of the time. It takes a great deal of willpower and timing to know when to leave your base to attack him. Sometimes his Mutalisks will fly in while you are en route and start picking off Probes or Pylons and it hurts to just let it happen... It feels very base trade-y and all-in, but it really isn't. The damage you will do to him will greatly surpass the damage he does to you since he will be FORCED to leave your base and run back to defend, and it is more than likely you will win the game. Zerglings take a large amount of Larvae and are easily dispatched in HUGE numbers by Zealots, and Mutalisks are so gas intensive that they won't have many of them in the early-mid game, and they are very bad in general combat. This means that the Zerg's defensive force will almost always be pathetic and flimsy. Simply put, when you are fighting Ling/Muta, as long as you are in the defensive position, you are in the losing position and the longer you defend, the more hopeless the situation. While defending, you are doing exactly what the Zerg wants you to do. Ling/Muta is a strategy that is essentially screaming Please Don't Attack Me!!!! Don't oblige him... Remember that it is OK to defend against ling/muta until you have the forces to attack his base... just remember that the longer you are defending, the better he will be able to defend against you.
Ultralisks Muta/ling is a build that is typically used to transition into Ultralisks. I won't go into massive detail on countering Ultralisks because games don't always get that far. The Zerg will either die in the timing attack I outlined above, or the Protoss will have been harassed to the point where the Ultralisks are simply the final nail in the coffin. Since SC2 is still developing, games don't always get this far, but occasionally, you will find both players in a solid position going into the Ultralisk phase. The key to fighting Ultralisks is two-fold. You must (1) tank the Ultralisks and (2) focus fire the Ultralisks. Zealots are great for this job, if you line them up to minimize splash, but are VERY vulnerable to Banelings... This can cause everything to go very wrong very fast. This is why I recommend Archons for this job. They have high HP and are not considered armored, making them ideal to take the damage. However, any wall being used against Ultralisks is just a countdown on the bomb. When the wall breaks, pain will ensue. This is why you need to take them down quickly. Stalkers and Immortals are the favorite for this, since they do such good damage. I personally prefer Stalkers, because they are so mobile and can reposition themselves nicely if they need to, and can handle their own against Zerglings and Hydras with Blink, whereas Immortals get eaten alive by both of those. But Archons are also great for damage. While a Zealot wall (which does low damage fast in groups of two) isn't so good against heavy armored Ultralisks, Archons (which take +4 damage per upgrade to a total of 47 damage/shot) are capable of laying serious pain on both Zerglings with splash and Ultras with heavy burst, as well as being able to easily 2 shot Hydras if left to their own.
Archons
Still true in Starcraft Two!
A much underused gem, the Archon is a unit I haven't been mentioning too much, because I wanted to emphasize it's strength in this section. Not many people use it, because of all the Archon's negative publicity from Beta and from the mindless sheep on the forums who regurgitate whatever they hear without ever thinking about what they are saying. So take a moment and think about it... The Archon brutally counters both Zerglings AND Mutalisks, as well as being among the most important unit to build when fighting Ultralisks. This means that the Archon, as a unit singlehandedly dismantles this ENTIRE strategy. (:o) They do a base damage which 1 shots unarmored Zerglings including splash that dominates the tiny little buggers. Each attack upgrade adds 4 damage to the Archons damage and to it's splash, making Zerglings more and more useless against even a couple Archons. Two Archons and Four Zealots will hold off an enormous amount of Zerglings. “But Zanez!” everyone says. “I hear Archons suck against Mutalisks!” False! This is a very common misconception. I already mentioned how Mutalisks can choose their engagements, and no Mutalisks would ever in their right mind engage an Archon. This is why Archons have trouble against Mutalisks. But as I already mentioned there is a way to force his Mutalisks to engage your Archons... and that is to attack his base. It is true that a defending Archon is a useless Archon, but the true strength of the Archon against Mutalisks and Zerg in general lays in it's offensive capability. One Archon will cause ENORMOUS damage to a stack of Mutalisks and two Archons are likely to kill it no sweat. Mixing Archons in with your Stalkers on the offense makes it so the Mutalisks have virtually no choice but to clump up and take shots. Warping in a couple Archons right away when the Archives finish is a strong time to initiate your timing push, since they do not require Psistorm to be effective (unlike raw High Templar). Also, with Muta/ling slowly changing into Muta/Baneling, Archons do not suffer the same fate as Zealots at the hands of Banelings. Now I am not saying that you should pack your army with 8 archons... that would be ridiculous. They are so damn expensive, and it is a waste of HT. But since the high splash damage and HP are so valuable, as few as 2 of them can and will change the tide of many many battles, as long as you keep them in the front lines. So when playing vs muta/ling in the future, I highly suggest some Archons to supplement your force. You may be surprised to see how strong these “useless” units are.
High Templar Now that you have Archons, you have High Templar. Psistorm has a small radius, does less damage than a Mutalisk has HP and is easy to avoid. And it RAPES Mutalisks!!! Some people will say otherwise, but quite simply, don't listen to them. Assuming you have a decent force of Zealots, you will have no need to Psistorm the Zerglings (it does friendly damage), so save your Psistorms for the Mutalisks. If you follow a ball of Mutalisks with a Psistorm you have some heavy guaranteed damage to all of them and you are keeping them moving. Even softening all the Mutalisks into the yellow makes a HUGE difference in the engagement. Just like everything else in this guide, this is massively magnified on the offense where the Mutalisks come to your army, and is significantly weaker on defense. A few points to remember about Psistorm vs Ling/Muta: -Mutalisks are great at picking off HT and will always focus them first. You need to be quick with the Psistorms and use it to keep the Mutalisks from being able to get a good shot on your HT. -Remember, a moving Mutalisk is a Mutalisk that is doing no damage... mostly. -Mutalisks LOVE to park just above your army so when you Psistorm them, you Psistorm your own army. Be careful with your Psistorms, and while it is OK to hit one or two of your own units in exchange for a strong Psistorm on his entire Mutalisk ball, you want to avoid Psistorming your whole army. If his Mutalisks do that, try Blinking out from under them and laying a Psistorm anyway. Also, if he has critical mass of Mutalisks and you are desperate, it... may be worth it to Psistorm your own troops in order to deal maximum damage to the ball... (you didn't hear it from me).
Protoss Fast Expand I am going to put this in it's own section because it is very different. Fast expand builds are tricky to fight Ling/Muta, because it allows them to drone like crazy before you are a threat. This allows for them to get extra fast Mutalisks, build extra spine crawlers and maybe even a third base before they are in any danger of any pressure from you, therefore allowing for them to get literally hundreds of Zerglings AND upgrades to overwhelm your attack. (note... as I am writing this, I am watching a game in the GSL that illustrates this EXACT situation. See: CheckPrime vs NewWeRRa) Because of this, I suggest the very obvious choice of Phoenix when Fast Expanding. While I do not recommend it on a single base (because they are useless vs Zerglings and one base can quickly be overwhelmed by masses of Zerglings), Phoenix are very effective on a Fast Expand, because you can support the resources for a strong ground defense. Phoenix reverse the effectiveness of Mutalisks, either forcing them to switch from Muta/Ling to something else (read a different guide) or to mix in Corruptors to fight the Phoenix. It works nicely, because it forces them to spend their larvae on things to stop Phoenix, weather it is Spore Crawlers or Hydralisks, and allows you to pressure them from the air and pick off drones. He should now be on the defensive, and thus, you should be able to pressure him from the ground as well. Phoenix easily and completely neutralize Mutalisks, and a muta/ling build with no mutas is a terrible terrible recipe for disaster. I do not recommend transitioning from Phoenix to Colossi, simply because the Spire allows for quick and easy Corruptors.
Emergency Situations Now, nothing ever goes according to plan, does it? We always get into emergency situations sometimes. In this hypothetical situation, we have been on the defense for so long that we have already pretty much thrown the game. The Zerg has something in excess of thirty Mutalisks and is ducking in and out of your base slaughtering chunks of Stalkers, going in for the kill. Well in this situation, you have been on defense for too long. Stalkers are really no longer an option for anything other than taking hits. Now you want HT.
Now you will win every time... right?
So anyway, I hope this guide has helped. I like to think I added stuff in there for a large variety of situations, so everyone should be able to take away a little something from this thread. Disclaimer: No two players are exactly the same, and there are many variations of the ling/muta build. If anyone has any specific problems or if there is something I haven't covered, please post here and I will either reply an answer, or add it to the original post.
Thank you NewWeRRa for illustrating how NOT to fight Muta/Ling
[EDIT] Added Scouting, HT and Emergency Situations
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Nice! Very good effort. I like the pictures!
From a zerg player's point of view, there are things that I agree and disagree to in this guide.
Attacking and pushing out is very important, but it has to be before the zerg player has amassed enough mutas to fight u head on. I'd say as soon as u see the first 5-6 mutalisks arrive in ur base, get some cannons up and when they're 50% done u should push out if u got a good amount of stalkers.
About zealots. Ur way may work, but what I dread seeing most from a protoss push when I'm going mutaling, is stalkers with sentries. They hug wall and just spam FF when my speedlings go in. In a push like this, it is my objective to bait ur FF and ur objective to use it only when it matters.
Also, well used HT storms can also own mutaling. If u r good with HTs, then u should definitely try using HTs to counter mutaling.
And yes, I do want to eat the cake.
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immortals obliterate ultras, if game comes to the point zerg is massing ultras, just get some immo to soak and deal damage in front of your main army
2gw zealot pressure vs zerg is really strong and forces zerg to play defensive and use larvae for lings or roaches
the only reason people have troubles with mutaling is because they loose map control and can't obtain it while in defensive position, so they loose macrowise
my opinion is that stalkers are very weak anti-air unit, i don't even think that protoss have any good anti-air units at all - terran has marine and viking, zerg has queen, hydra and corruptor, protoss have what? sentry cost lots of gas and is slightly better than marine, stalker has 7(10) dps consider this is low for his price(its like one marine's dps), phoenix are only good vs muta and banshee, void rays are weak until charged(8 dps uncharged), carriers seems to be the only choise but it's very late in game. So I might consider using some (1-2) archons to reinforce pure zealot army and possibly 1-2 sentries to deal with mutas. This mix should rape zerg, just need +1 weapon and charge will be very usefull for obtaining concave and dealing with roaches on creep, though, archons might deal with them very well too. Inspired me to get some archons earlier than psi-storm, timed push can work well. Colossi are very expensive(robo fac + robo bay + range upgrade) and easy countered.
btw as far as i know, even magic-boxed mutas will suffer splash damage from archon, so at least 5 mutas will get 35 damage at a time from archon
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Some useful tips but you should really try to trim down the text. Reading your post felt like I was picking out the marshmallows out of my lucky charms.
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i agree with most of your build, i'm a muta-ling zerg myself and the only time i really lose it due to an early push before my better economy kicks in. I don't agree with the FE though: if i see a FE i just mass some zerglings and take it out, or atleast do enough damage to REALLY keep you on the back foot allowing me to switch from 2- base to 3- base muta. On a map like LT a FE build might work, but on any map with a more open natural or a natural a bit further away from your main ramp you're just asking to get messed with . (in my last ZvP, the P tried to FE with 1 zealot for defence... i took out the zealot, the pylon at the FE and 2 probes with 6 zerglings and left his base with 4 alive. Get some defence before you expand!)
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Overall good read. I disagree with Phoenixes countering Mutalisks though. When Blizzard first implemented Phoenix moving shot, I was one of the trolls complaining how Phoenixes now hard-countered Mutalisks and Muta/Ling was over. But then one day I actually decided to keep going Muta/Ling despite scouting Phoenix. It was comically effective.
Stick and move Muta micro absolutely wrecks Phoenix. I don't think Phoenix is EVER the correct choice against a competent Zerg. Just keep it on the ground vs Z.
And don't FE ever. You said it perfectly, Z is only a threat to P if you sit back and let him power drones. A FE build does exactly that, letting the Z double your worker count and likely get a second expansion (which not only means more unat to fight when you first push out, but it also means he's comfortably setup for T3 transition).
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maybe u can talk more about some mechanics which might help.
For example kiting, especially with blink.
also what's a good response after hallucination scouts a spire.. Some players go double stargate instead of getting blink
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Nice guide Definitely will try this out next time.
Also, you should add a [G] tag to your post ^^
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On September 11 2010 00:05 comis wrote: Overall good read. I disagree with Phoenixes countering Mutalisks though. When Blizzard first implemented Phoenix moving shot, I was one of the trolls complaining how Phoenixes now hard-countered Mutalisks and Muta/Ling was over. But then one day I actually decided to keep going Muta/Ling despite scouting Phoenix. It was comically effective.
Stick and move Muta micro absolutely wrecks Phoenix. I don't think Phoenix is EVER the correct choice against a competent Zerg. Just keep it on the ground vs Z.
And don't FE ever. You said it perfectly, Z is only a threat to P if you sit back and let him power drones. A FE build does exactly that, letting the Z double your worker count and likely get a second expansion (which not only means more unat to fight when you first push out, but it also means he's comfortably setup for T3 transition).
??
Phoenixes do wreck mutas. It's phoenix micro that is over muta micro, not the other way around.
And forge FE is commonly seen among high lv players/tournaments and completely viable in most situations. It is folly to let generalizations dictate your entire play strategy before the game even starts.
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On September 10 2010 20:32 boneyz wrote: Nice! Very good effort. I like the pictures!
From a zerg player's point of view, there are things that I agree and disagree to in this guide.
Attacking and pushing out is very important, but it has to be before the zerg player has amassed enough mutas to fight u head on. I'd say as soon as u see the first 5-6 mutalisks arrive in ur base, get some cannons up and when they're 50% done u should push out if u got a good amount of stalkers.
About zealots. Ur way may work, but what I dread seeing most from a protoss push when I'm going mutaling, is stalkers with sentries. They hug wall and just spam FF when my speedlings go in. In a push like this, it is my objective to bait ur FF and ur objective to use it only when it matters.
Also, well used HT storms can also own mutaling. If u r good with HTs, then u should definitely try using HTs to counter mutaling.
And yes, I do want to eat the cake.
The guide is mostly to manage an attack on the Zerg base when fighting Muta/Ling. How many Mutalisks does it take to be able to attack a force of Stalker/Sentry (with GS) and Archon head on and have a hope of winning? Ideally, the Protoss player will attack before you get such an unreasonably huge amount of Mutalisks. If you have that gigantic force of Mutalisks, then the Protoss player has been on the defense for so long that the situation has become hopeless and he has already lost the game. In such an emergency situation, Phoenix are a reasonable place to go in order to attempt to hard counter and push back the critical Mutalisk ball, but even that is probably not going to be enough. You need to attack with extra Archons and HT and land some perfect Psistorms. Don't panic, however because even a couple ticks of Psistorm and a couple hits from an Archon can and will kill a HUGE force of Mutalisks.
On September 10 2010 23:55 Demus wrote: i agree with most of your build, i'm a muta-ling zerg myself and the only time i really lose it due to an early push before my better economy kicks in. I don't agree with the FE though: if i see a FE i just mass some zerglings and take it out, or atleast do enough damage to REALLY keep you on the back foot allowing me to switch from 2- base to 3- base muta. On a map like LT a FE build might work, but on any map with a more open natural or a natural a bit further away from your main ramp you're just asking to get messed with . (in my last ZvP, the P tried to FE with 1 zealot for defence... i took out the zealot, the pylon at the FE and 2 probes with 6 zerglings and left his base with 4 alive. Get some defence before you expand!)
Yep, that's why I said that you need to get Phoenix with a strong ground defense. FE has the economy to be able to support 2 Stargate Phoenix and a good amount of ground unit production. While the expansion is going up, the ground forces take priority over getting the Phoenix out fast.
On September 11 2010 00:05 comis wrote: Overall good read. I disagree with Phoenixes countering Mutalisks though. When Blizzard first implemented Phoenix moving shot, I was one of the trolls complaining how Phoenixes now hard-countered Mutalisks and Muta/Ling was over. But then one day I actually decided to keep going Muta/Ling despite scouting Phoenix. It was comically effective.
Stick and move Muta micro absolutely wrecks Phoenix. I don't think Phoenix is EVER the correct choice against a competent Zerg. Just keep it on the ground vs Z.
And don't FE ever. You said it perfectly, Z is only a threat to P if you sit back and let him power drones. A FE build does exactly that, letting the Z double your worker count and likely get a second expansion (which not only means more unat to fight when you first push out, but it also means he's comfortably setup for T3 transition).
In an attack move situation, Mutalisks will get destroyed by Phoenix cost for cost. But with good micro, that is magnified. Phoenix micro always overlays Mutalisk Micro and theoretically ( I have done it perfectly a few times ), a single Phoenix can kill unlimited Mutalisks. I have managed to take out well over twenty Mutalisks with five or six Phoenix. Slamming on the breaks with the Mutalisks and getting a few shots before they readjust to the range works a little, but that is what the shield is for. I have seen many people claiming that the Mutalisk counters the Phoenix, but it makes me laugh every time, because in my experiences, the exact opposite is true.
On September 11 2010 00:09 wxwx wrote: maybe u can talk more about some mechanics which might help.
For example kiting, especially with blink.
also what's a good response after hallucination scouts a spire.. Some players go double stargate instead of getting blink
After spotting a Spire, I personally go for Blink towards HT and Archons, and often I will put up a cannon or two in my expansion to buy time . As for mechanics that will help fighting Mutalisks... well, generally they avoid engaging your army and will run away as soon as you show up. Well this brings up basic mechanics, such as trying to get a surround and also what I mentioned above. Do not blink to engage Mutalisks, blink to Chase Mutalisks.
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Sorry for the double post, I updated the OP with some tips for scouting, the use of HT and what to do in an emergency situation.
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I didn't get to read it all, but the bit I did (the bit about muta not being a great defender, and about attacking to force the muta to defend) is great advice. I (as a Zerg) find that if I get pushed by a large force, it does what he is saying, and like he said, muta die fairly easy. The lings are just there to soak up dmg, while the mutas kill things.
Long story short, what he is saying will def work vs most muta ling players.
One thing I feel I should also mention is that when and with what you push out with is very critical. If I feel my ling army can handle your incoming army without much trouble, than you are pretty much handing me your base and the game. Also if you wait too long, I will have map control and 2-3 bases more than you, and it will be easy to roll over the incoming army. Good scouting and intel on the size of his army with help.
You should also be aware that a zerg can easily double his ling army at the drop of a hat as soon as you move out, if he is scouting well. I would suggest pushing out right after you see a wave to drone production, to lessen the amount of lings a zerg player can pump.
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I really like your guide but in my opinion somebody who mass Blink stalker can coutner ling bnling. mass stalker with couple of sentry really kill any lings + muta because blink make you safe against harass and surround.
but otherwise I would go for your strat. 1 thing though is that i wouldnt use Archon. Archon own lings and muta yes its true on paper, but archon cost way too much to be effective in that matchup. Lets do some math:
3 archon = 300 mineral and 900 gas 900 GAS ! Its really big. and 3 archon can get killed by around 20-30 lings that cost 500$-650 gas is wayy to important in all matchup. if he can get gas... he can tech switch or do crazy things. + If he see you get too many archon... lets say around 5... hes gonna add hydralisk to his lings before or while teching to ultra.
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^ True in Brood War as well. But hey, archons still countered lings. You know why? They're terrible on their own but destroy everything with support.
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I really, definitely agree with this guide, as a Zerg player. There's nothing worse than assuming the protoss will play defense for the next few minutes while you drone up and distract with mutas, and then seeing him moving out with a good mix of zealot/stalker/sentry just after you've produced a round of 10 drones and have no larvae left.
I must emphasize the effectiveness of archons in the ZvP MU...they are good against BOTH zerg T3 units (clear broodlings in one shot, tank ultras better than any other unit), and absolutely murder zerglings (the zerg's go-to mineral dump) in any number once they get upgrades. Definitely not useless at all.
Great guide
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Very good guide. As a Zerg player, I agree with everything hes said. Muta-ling is basicly a buy time to build drones strategy, which is what makes it so effective. If a protoss attacks me when doing this strategy, it all sort of blows up in my face.
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I quickly skimmed through this and was caught tremendously off guard with the Archon and HT sections. I'm absolutely LOVING that. I too have noticed the strength of Archons recently, but I for some reason have yet to try them against zerg. This has opened my mind a bit for possible openers and transitions that could dominate.
Thank you very much for posting this! It's extremely well done.
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DON'T USE BLINK TO ENGAGE. USE BLINK TO CHASE This guy knows his stuff. +1.
Archons, are really good, but you have to protect them like you protect reavers. An archon that survives with 5 shield left, will fight at 100% power in the next battle. You simply do not have the resources to replace them often. You have to make them worth their gas cost. Pretty much, you do not want them tanking any zergling damage. Just like in BW, straight archon doesn't do so great against ultra/ling, just because the lings melt the no-shield-armor archons.
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This is a fantastic guide, well done =). I love the pictures.
One of the reaons I love phoenixes in this matchup is because they're kind of like mutalisks. The better the micro, the more powerful the phoenix becomes, and some well managed phoenixes can really punish a zerg player that gets too ambitious with those mutalisks.
On the other hand, I've always found high templar difficult to use against muta-ling. It's not that psi storm doesn't do fantastic damage against zerglings (and mutalisks if you're lucky), but speedlings move so quickly that landing a good psi storm against them is difficult, especially when they begin to engage the zealots. On a side note though, if your opponent decides to mix in a few corruptors with the muta fleet, feedback can serve you well. The archons are great when ultralisks pop out too.
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Maybe a mod could add a [G] on the name of this thread? I forgot to add it in.
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This is good except for the tidbit about not blinking to engage mutalisks. Often times, for instance, if a mutalisk army is harassing near impassable terrain (aka no land) at the edge of your base most likely, as soon as he sees your stalkers coming he will run. You can gain many shots by blinking in over trying to waddle over (about 3 volleys versus 0-0.5).
Otherwise yes, if there is passable terrain (not filled with zerglings) its a good idea to blink to chase rather than the initial engagement.
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On September 11 2010 02:26 Skyro wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2010 00:05 comis wrote: Overall good read. I disagree with Phoenixes countering Mutalisks though. When Blizzard first implemented Phoenix moving shot, I was one of the trolls complaining how Phoenixes now hard-countered Mutalisks and Muta/Ling was over. But then one day I actually decided to keep going Muta/Ling despite scouting Phoenix. It was comically effective.
Stick and move Muta micro absolutely wrecks Phoenix. I don't think Phoenix is EVER the correct choice against a competent Zerg. Just keep it on the ground vs Z.
And don't FE ever. You said it perfectly, Z is only a threat to P if you sit back and let him power drones. A FE build does exactly that, letting the Z double your worker count and likely get a second expansion (which not only means more unat to fight when you first push out, but it also means he's comfortably setup for T3 transition). ?? Phoenixes do wreck mutas. It's phoenix micro that is over muta micro, not the other way around. And forge FE is commonly seen among high lv players/tournaments and completely viable in most situations. It is folly to let generalizations dictate your entire play strategy before the game even starts.
However if the zerg player retreats and attack alternatively, you are almost guaranteed to get hit, pheonix range can only get you so far with non-progamming amounts of micro/skills. The main strength in pheonixes, is that if you ever have the stronger air force, you can wipe out his mutalisks, taking minimal losses. It kind of pins the zerg player slightly. However, while the pheonixes are coming out, a good zerg player will bring on the pain on your mineral line. Important things, are keeping track of if the zerg is committing to air or not, and making a timely transition to immortal collolus play compositions.
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On September 11 2010 13:26 blitzkrieger wrote: This is good except for the tidbit about not blinking to engage mutalisks. Often times, for instance, if a mutalisk army is harassing near impassable terrain (aka no land) at the edge of your base most likely, as soon as he sees your stalkers coming he will run. You can gain many shots by blinking in over trying to waddle over (about 3 volleys versus 0-0.5).
Otherwise yes, if there is passable terrain (not filled with zerglings) its a good idea to blink to chase rather than the initial engagement.
Oh of course if there is difficult to traverse terrain... like if you are stuck in your simcity, or if your Stalkers are on top of a cliff, then yeah you want to use Blink to cover that distance. I didn't mention that in the guide because it just seems like common sense... There are certain maps, such as Lost Temple, Metalopolis, Xel'Naga Caverns.... well most maps really, that can really backfire if you waste your Blink trying to get in range of the Mutalisks, only to get caught on the wrong side of a cliff.
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On September 11 2010 13:39 Zanez.smarty wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2010 13:26 blitzkrieger wrote: This is good except for the tidbit about not blinking to engage mutalisks. Often times, for instance, if a mutalisk army is harassing near impassable terrain (aka no land) at the edge of your base most likely, as soon as he sees your stalkers coming he will run. You can gain many shots by blinking in over trying to waddle over (about 3 volleys versus 0-0.5).
Otherwise yes, if there is passable terrain (not filled with zerglings) its a good idea to blink to chase rather than the initial engagement. Oh of course if there is difficult to traverse terrain... like if you are stuck in your simcity, or if your Stalkers are on top of a cliff, then yeah you want to use Blink to cover that distance. I didn't mention that in the guide because it just seems like common sense... There are certain maps, such as Lost Temple, Metalopolis, Xel'Naga Caverns.... well most maps really, that can really backfire if you waste your Blink trying to get in range of the Mutalisks, only to get caught on the wrong side of a cliff.
I mean over impassible terrain like water or a void/hole.
A) You move His mutas run Do nothing, possible loss of probes/etc
B) You blink and get several volleys off His mutas run Some damage/possible kills on his mutas
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On September 11 2010 13:35 Chronopolis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2010 02:26 Skyro wrote:On September 11 2010 00:05 comis wrote: Overall good read. I disagree with Phoenixes countering Mutalisks though. When Blizzard first implemented Phoenix moving shot, I was one of the trolls complaining how Phoenixes now hard-countered Mutalisks and Muta/Ling was over. But then one day I actually decided to keep going Muta/Ling despite scouting Phoenix. It was comically effective.
Stick and move Muta micro absolutely wrecks Phoenix. I don't think Phoenix is EVER the correct choice against a competent Zerg. Just keep it on the ground vs Z.
And don't FE ever. You said it perfectly, Z is only a threat to P if you sit back and let him power drones. A FE build does exactly that, letting the Z double your worker count and likely get a second expansion (which not only means more unat to fight when you first push out, but it also means he's comfortably setup for T3 transition). ?? Phoenixes do wreck mutas. It's phoenix micro that is over muta micro, not the other way around. And forge FE is commonly seen among high lv players/tournaments and completely viable in most situations. It is folly to let generalizations dictate your entire play strategy before the game even starts. However if the zerg player retreats and attack alternatively, you are almost guaranteed to get hit, pheonix range can only get you so far with non-progamming amounts of micro/skills. The main strength in pheonixes, is that if you ever have the stronger air force, you can wipe out his mutalisks, taking minimal losses. It kind of pins the zerg player slightly. However, while the pheonixes are coming out, a good zerg player will bring on the pain on your mineral line. Important things, are keeping track of if the zerg is committing to air or not, and making a timely transition to immortal collolus play compositions.
Alternating retreats and attacks with Mutalisks will certainly allow Mutalisks to do a little damage to the Phoenix, but the attack of the Phoenix is faster and stronger. Shields will do just fine at taking the damage. There are virtually no situations in which Mutalisks will win against Phoenix cost for cost (assuming the Protoss has a brain).
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On September 11 2010 13:43 blitzkrieger wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2010 13:39 Zanez.smarty wrote:On September 11 2010 13:26 blitzkrieger wrote: This is good except for the tidbit about not blinking to engage mutalisks. Often times, for instance, if a mutalisk army is harassing near impassable terrain (aka no land) at the edge of your base most likely, as soon as he sees your stalkers coming he will run. You can gain many shots by blinking in over trying to waddle over (about 3 volleys versus 0-0.5).
Otherwise yes, if there is passable terrain (not filled with zerglings) its a good idea to blink to chase rather than the initial engagement. Oh of course if there is difficult to traverse terrain... like if you are stuck in your simcity, or if your Stalkers are on top of a cliff, then yeah you want to use Blink to cover that distance. I didn't mention that in the guide because it just seems like common sense... There are certain maps, such as Lost Temple, Metalopolis, Xel'Naga Caverns.... well most maps really, that can really backfire if you waste your Blink trying to get in range of the Mutalisks, only to get caught on the wrong side of a cliff. I mean over impassible terrain like water or a void/hole. A) You move His mutas run Do nothing, possible loss of probes/etc B) You blink and get several volleys off His mutas run Some damage/possible kills on his mutas
It is a matter of judgment... You need to decide to yourself whether it is a good idea to blink or not. A good rule of thumb is that IF YOU CAN HELP IT, don't engage with Blink. Of course if there is no risk of doing so, you need to pass over impassible terrain or you are at risk of taking a LOT of damage in the mean time, then yeah, use Blink. But in most cases, you want to walk up to him then Blink when he runs. In that way you are more likely to be able to catch up and get more shots off as he runs away. Blinking just in range, only to have him run away will net fewer shots... unless the Zerg is being ridiculously overly cautious.
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On September 11 2010 13:50 Zanez.smarty wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2010 13:43 blitzkrieger wrote:On September 11 2010 13:39 Zanez.smarty wrote:On September 11 2010 13:26 blitzkrieger wrote: This is good except for the tidbit about not blinking to engage mutalisks. Often times, for instance, if a mutalisk army is harassing near impassable terrain (aka no land) at the edge of your base most likely, as soon as he sees your stalkers coming he will run. You can gain many shots by blinking in over trying to waddle over (about 3 volleys versus 0-0.5).
Otherwise yes, if there is passable terrain (not filled with zerglings) its a good idea to blink to chase rather than the initial engagement. Oh of course if there is difficult to traverse terrain... like if you are stuck in your simcity, or if your Stalkers are on top of a cliff, then yeah you want to use Blink to cover that distance. I didn't mention that in the guide because it just seems like common sense... There are certain maps, such as Lost Temple, Metalopolis, Xel'Naga Caverns.... well most maps really, that can really backfire if you waste your Blink trying to get in range of the Mutalisks, only to get caught on the wrong side of a cliff. I mean over impassible terrain like water or a void/hole. A) You move His mutas run Do nothing, possible loss of probes/etc B) You blink and get several volleys off His mutas run Some damage/possible kills on his mutas It is a matter of judgment... You need to decide to yourself whether it is a good idea to blink or not. A good rule of thumb is that IF YOU CAN HELP IT, don't engage with Blink. Of course if there is no risk of doing so, you need to pass over impassible terrain or you are at risk of taking a LOT of damage in the mean time, then yeah, use Blink. But in most cases, you want to walk up to him then Blink when he runs. In that way you are more likely to be able to catch up and get more shots off as he runs away. Blinking just in range, only to have him run away will net fewer shots... unless the Zerg is being ridiculously overly cautious.
thats wut i said bro -_-
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Well this is a guide... lol may as well DRIVE THE POINT HOME for all who read it
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this is a great guide for dealing with the strat but for me ling muta is only an issue when I FE and as you pointed out a zerg can power econ very well in this situation. phoenix are strong and they can shut out ling muta if you play it right (one pro game a guy built 3 stargates with only 1 gate and a few cannons) but I want a solution where we are not forced to say well I need phoenix or I die where is X Y and Z for my selections even if harder to execute.
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Alternate protoss counter....cannon stall into mass phoenix/DT? I've only faced this once as zerg and it blew my mind. Then again if i had a clue i could have countered with roach hydra easily enough. Just putting it out there.
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Great guide man. I really really really want to thank you for the tip on not getting robo early vs mutas. I often do this to scout and I'm def gonna try the hallucination phoenix. Seems like an awesome idea. Thanks
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There's an Idra game that really shows why sometimes you will need Phoenixes, not Archons. =/ A Korean showmatch where the Toss player seemed to be doing well with archon/HT versus ling muta, until the effects of immobility while Idra macroed started to show themselves.
Although perhaps with some shield armor against Z archons could be a force versus ling/muta. The splash spreads between both air and ground which is nice, if you can position it just right (or if the Zerg player positions that poorly with air right over ground units).
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On September 11 2010 15:13 Ndugu wrote: There's an Idra game that really shows why sometimes you will need Phoenixes, not Archons. =/ A Korean showmatch where the Toss player seemed to be doing well with archon/HT versus ling muta, until the effects of immobility while Idra macroed started to show themselves.
Although perhaps with some shield armor against Z archons could be a force versus ling/muta. The splash spreads between both air and ground which is nice, if you can position it just right (or if the Zerg player positions that poorly with air right over ground units).
Phoenixes work much better on the defense than they do on the offense. Spore Crawlers and Queens as well as quick reinforcements and Overlord interference kinda tilt it in that direction. This is why Phoenix are the best option when you FE vs Ling/Muta. They operate best with lots of free airspace to do their micro. Archons however, work much better on the offense than they do on the defense. Mutalisks that are forced to engage an Archon in order to keep their base alive are not happy Mutalisks. But Archons are so slow and fat that they are completely unable to chase them down.
So really it depends on the situation you are in. There are certainly times where either or is a good option, but if you can get both, then you are in very good shape... just vulnerable to a sudden Hydra Tech Switch... But that's what Psistom is for...
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Does anyone know the exact mechanics of phoenix attacking? It seems when i send them to attack the continually approach mutalalisks and thet get shot... unlike any other air unit. It's pretty stupid and am wondering how you micro phoenix. If its already been posted sorry.
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Check out this replay:
http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft2/replays/36688
I think it demonstrates a lot of things discussed in this thread. HTs, archons, being aggressive and ignoring the harassing, how to use blinks correctly, etc, and even DTs make an appearence towards the end. It is also a very entertaining replay.
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Nice guide. I'll provide a little input as well, as a muta/ling user (1300+ if that matters at all to anyone).
If you don't like playing against muta/ling, you can always pre-empt it with a stargate build. Stalker/sentry with a few zealots does well against muta/ling on short rush distances where you can easily attack their natural. The reason is you can more easily force an engagement on your terms as you're walking to their natural where you can effectively FF their lings, which is a huge component of the muta/ling strategy. Zealot/stalker does well against muta/ling in general, but becomes MUCH less effective once banelings enter the picture. Personally, I go pure ling/baneling while mass expanding just until I hold off that first Protoss gateway attack, then I switch to mutas to secure my win. The only things that are really scary for muta/ling to fight if it gets to the lategame are mass phoenixes, high templar/archon (storm absolutely RAPES muta/ling - contrary to the OP, you want to be storming primarily the lings so your stalkers/sentries/archons can focus down the mutas easily while softening them up a bit with maybe 1-2 storms) with stalker support, and motherships or carriers (yes, that shit is extremely scary lategame, but only if you can secure an easily defendable third base without wasting too much on static defense - blink stalkers and high templar help a lot with defense).
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On September 11 2010 15:25 blitzkrieger wrote: Does anyone know the exact mechanics of phoenix attacking? It seems when i send them to attack the continually approach mutalalisks and thet get shot... unlike any other air unit. It's pretty stupid and am wondering how you micro phoenix. If its already been posted sorry.
Phoenix attack while moving, and thus they do not need to be targeted on anything specific. Attack move will engage the first unit like anything else (I think), but you can also use a simple "move" command that will fly straight through them and will fire at whatever units it can reach. You cannot stop a Phoenix from firing... not that you would ever want to.
Some tips on Microing Phoenix: -ONLY right click. Focus Firing takes valuable APM that is needed to keep the very precise Phoenix positioning perfect. So unless you have HUGE apm, you should avoid it. There are very very few situations (once in a while they come up) that you will ever NEED to focus fire. -Phoenix always fire at the unit that is closest to them. Right clicking through a swarm of Mutalisks or Overlords will cause them to disperse their fire relatively evenly... Because of this, it is best to keep your Phoenixes on the outskirts of the cloud of units you are trying to attack, and tightly clumped up (if your Phoenixes are stacked, they auto focus fire). -Phoenixes have a range of 4. Mutalisks have a range of 3. Because of this there is a sweet spot that the Phoenix can shoot in and the Mutalisk cannot. When engaging Mutalisks, you want to attempt to stay in that very small area. Right click a LOT and try and gauge the distance well. It is tricky, but it comes with practice. Theoretically, in a vacuum, a single Phoenix will be able to kill unlimited Mutalisks without ever taking a single hit... assuming 100% perfect micro... -Phoenix are the fastest air unit in the game. They also do not need to slow down to shoot. Because of this, no units can run away from a group of Phoenix. If they try to run, chase and fly alongside them until either they get reinforcements or they die.
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I just played a game where the zerg went muta/ling. I went straight for templar archives and started producing archons. I skipped all the HT upgrades, used that money to get ground upgrades. The great thing about archons is that they are cheap minerals wise, so you can just keep pumping zealots. I got an expansion just for gas nodes. He had a few mutas harassing me, but for the most part it was a cakewalk. Archons with plus 3 weapons deal crazy damage.
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Your guide is not bad at all! thanks for sharing!
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I'm glad you talked about the Archon, I really do think this is the most underused unit ( Beside Carriers and Mothership) in the Protoss arsenal considering how effective it is against Zerg.
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except archons < mutalisk spread trick (2 archons beat a large group of mutas, not so much if they do not stack.)
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cool guide bro
Needs to be added to liquipedia if not already
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On September 12 2010 01:02 gerundium wrote: except archons < mutalisk spread trick (2 archons beat a large group of mutas, not so much if they do not stack.)
Storm them then. Mutalisks that are spread out like that can't focus fire very well, so the instant you see them spread out like that, storm the bastards and keep on attacking their base.
They'll be forced to flee or risk taking terrible terrible damage. If you don't have storm, then switch the archon off of attacking mutas and on to attacking 'lings, and have your stalkers focus down the mutalisks.
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On September 12 2010 01:02 gerundium wrote: except archons < mutalisk spread trick (2 archons beat a large group of mutas, not so much if they do not stack.) Not true. Spreading doesn't really do much against archons because their splash radius is really big, especially compared to the thor's. The only thing spreading does is make sure all your 30+ mutas don't die to like 4 archons. But it still doesn't make them cost-effective at all versus archons.
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On September 12 2010 01:09 Saracen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2010 01:02 gerundium wrote: except archons < mutalisk spread trick (2 archons beat a large group of mutas, not so much if they do not stack.) Not true. Spreading doesn't really do much against archons because their splash radius is really big, especially compared to the thor's. The only thing spreading does is make sure all your 30+ mutas don't die to like 4 archons. But it still doesn't make them cost-effective at all versus archons. Yea Archon splash still is bigger then the Thors so spread doesn't do much, I mean it helps but doesn't eliminate it completely.
Archons are also cost efficient against EVERY AND ANY Zerg unit ( Brood Lord, Ultra, Roaches, You Name it), they should really be looked into
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this is the way i fight muta ling.
sit in base with mass stalkers and prevent harrass till you get a critical mass and blink into his base pass all his sunkens. dont build anything else you dont need it. with good blink micro, a mass of stalkers with chronoed upgrades own ling/muta
2nd time playing mysticprime
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Nice guide. I lost some games to muta ling recently that was frustrating, and I think this may help me a bit
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The only issue I really see with this as a Z player is that I know exactly what you're doing the whole time.
If I see no robo supportbay [hell, you're not even getting a robo for a while], I am in one of the best positions I can hope to be in: I can make Hydra/Roach. Hydra/Roach is almost unbeatable for Toss without Collosi and if I cut back on muta [making no more than 8-12 in a game], I will have a huge ammount of extra gas to play with. Once the creep starts moving, Z will gain complete control of the game easily taking a 3rd and actually applying offensive pressure.
Z uses mutas for 2 reasons: 1) ChronoBoosted probes nearly match 1base droning, without Harass Z's econ will fall behind 2) Muta are pivitol towards sniping collosi before a critical number is reached [~3]
What is left over from this opening is minerals and larva. Even with 4 gas you can't spend all your larva and minerals on Muta, so Z makes their mineral unit.
The issue I am seeing with your play is that it is attempting to sidestep collosi play entirely, staying completely on gateway play. This is exactly what Z wants. Hydra completely destroy gateway play, even with storm out due to roaches.
The only way I could see you surviving is through perfect force fielding, but with so much gas in HT/Archons, Storm, Stalkers, Blink and Hallucination your sentry count will be hurt.
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Wow this is an awesome post, I haven't seen such a good protoss strat post since the Stalker void ray strat that was posted a few weeks ago. good job sir
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hrmmm This was a very nice read, and very interesting too. Good job man!
In your FE section, it reminded me of the parallels that can be drawn between BW and SC2. Phoenixes serve essentially the same role as corsairs in an FE build, hehe. ^^
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i guess wall of text + pictures = good thread
no this is not flame.. i think this could be said so much more concisely
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ultras are not countered by stalkers, infestation pit is a requirement for lair, and a fungal growth or two ruins any chance of stalkers being useful vs them
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On September 12 2010 08:04 Cyber_Cheese wrote: ultras are not countered by stalkers, infestation pit is a requirement for lair, and a fungal growth or two ruins any chance of stalkers being useful vs them
Stalkers do a mighty fine job at countering Ultralisks... IF there is a wall between the Ultralisks and the Stalkers. The moment the Ultralisks can get some shots off on the Stalkers, then it is over. But a line of Zealots and a couple Archons can allow the Stalkers enough time to focus fire them down. Remember that if there are Archons, there are HT with Feedback.
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If you are attending a writing course, you should know that the fewer words, the better.
I've been writing articles online for about three years now, and I'll tell you this: very few people would read this article if it wasn't a thing that really interests them. Also, maybe make the paragraphs a bit shorter? Remember that good reading is hard writing (put the reader's gain above your writer's ego! you aren't writing a book here!).
As for the guide itself: good work. I really needed ideas on how to counter them flying bastards.
Also, any ideas on wat do in far positions? I think warp prism harass could work, because most PvZs are 3gate robo anyways.
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On September 13 2010 06:20 kidijs wrote: If you are attending a writing course, you should know that the fewer words, the better.
I've been writing articles online for about three years now, and I'll tell you this: very few people would read this article if it wasn't a thing that really interests them. Also, maybe make the paragraphs a bit shorter? Remember that good reading is hard writing (put the reader's gain above your writer's ego! you aren't writing a book here!).
As for the guide itself: good work. I really needed ideas on how to counter them flying bastards.
Also, any ideas on wat do in far positions? I think warp prism harass could work, because most PvZs are 3gate robo anyways.
Yeah, I know it is a little long winded... Trying to keep the ideas memorable enough to recall in a game so... Well for all those who have the fortitude to read through it, I hope they found at least a good sentence or two in there...
In far positions when fighting Muta/Ling, you actually have the advantage... When you attack the Zerg, he will be forced to fly all his Mutalisks back to defend earlier... this means he has less time to do damage in your base before the attack. When he hits your base, the best way to get rid of the Mutas as fast as possible is to hit HIS base. ESPECIALLY at cross positions. I don't recommend warp prisms, because for the most part, I don't recommend a Robotics Facility against Muta/Ling... When you make a forward Pylon, make sure it is as close to his base as possible... The further the way from your army the Pylon is, the more vulnerable it is to flanking Zerglings and focusing Mutalisks.
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Props for not taking my post too seriously. I would've.
As for not getting a robo, well, that sounds pretty reasonable.
I guess if you lose to mutas when they come back you have too sloppy macro. Hallucination is an awesome spell, and indeed a lot cheaper than 250/200 for a robo+obs.
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The only problem I see with this is the part about Archon's countering mutas if you force them to engage. Stronger players are going to abuse magic box like they do VS Thors in ZvT nullifying their splash
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On September 14 2010 12:31 iSiN wrote:The only problem I see with this is the part about Archon's countering mutas if you force them to engage. Stronger players are going to abuse magic box like they do VS Thors in ZvT nullifying their splash
Someone has all ready pointed this out, and the counterpoint has all ready been made. The archon splash area is much bigger than the thors, so the magic box is less effective. Archons are cost effective vs mutas stacking or not.
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I like to throw a few colossi into the mix, when zergs scout me making colossi they respond by making corrupters. When I push out to the zerg base, his ball attacks mine, my colossi melts his lings, and of course the corrupters kill my 3-4 colossi...but then z is left with a useless a2a unit hovering over my big ball of zlots stalkers and ht's ripping up his base.
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I always thought archons need more love, now they probably get some, great guide.
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It's kind of sick when you think that archons do bonus damage to literally EVERY zerg unit and they're still almost never used. They're a little immobile so part of the mid-game strategy has to be denying creep because if zerg can add hydras when he gets ultras it will be some bad news.
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Great guide!
I just played a game where I lost to muta/ling because I stayed on the defensive too much and only built stalkers. When I attacked his base his zerglings plowed through me.
One question though. What if instead of pulling his mutas back to defend his base, he decides to try base trading with you?
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Your guide is so good I am going to post it as an example of something I could not find, even though searching hard for half an hour? because it's not in the spotlight. There should be a list of threads that were in the spotlight
I remembered it after one of Wolf Cup 11 games that are being casted right now...
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On September 13 2010 06:20 kidijs wrote: If you are attending a writing course, you should know that the fewer words, the better.
I've been writing articles online for about three years now, and I'll tell you this: very few people would read this article if it wasn't a thing that really interests them. Also, maybe make the paragraphs a bit shorter? Remember that good reading is hard writing (put the reader's gain above your writer's ego! you aren't writing a book here!).
As for the guide itself: good work. I really needed ideas on how to counter them flying bastards.
Also, any ideas on wat do in far positions? I think warp prism harass could work, because most PvZs are 3gate robo anyways.
Honestly I disagree. I would rather read a well written, well though out post that it comprehensive. I don't mind if it takes up more than a few paragraphs. I'm not in 3rd grade and I can handle that much reading. If other people are so lazy that they want to know how to play against muta ling but not enough to spend 4 minutes reading that is their problem. I see very few wasted words in the OP's post that could be removed without increasing the nebulousness of the guide.
If people don't have the patience to read then they deserve to learn. Pure and simple.
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On September 18 2010 00:03 wolf_rider wrote: Great guide!
I just played a game where I lost to muta/ling because I stayed on the defensive too much and only built stalkers. When I attacked his base his zerglings plowed through me.
One question though. What if instead of pulling his mutas back to defend his base, he decides to try base trading with you?
Mutas cannon successfully base trade with a toss ground army. You will be able to take out their tech, their hatcheries, and their drones and still make it back to their base before then can kill your probes and all of your pylons.
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Here we go. Best guide about the Muta/ Ling thign i've read. I've read through the whole post and it works fine. But there are still some problems for me.
Me, P Diamond 1176 vs. Z Diamond 1266:
As I scouted the early expansion i planned my timing push with +1 upgrade and did so: Fail. that is the first problem: I can't get through spinecrawlers at all.
As i've seen him pumping more and more lings i knew he was going for Mutas. So I hold on the pressure.
The Point is, that he even did not micro well and that is also disappointing. I could easily lure his lings towards my lots, easily block them and kill them with stalker. But as much as i set pressure on him, he could always hold me off and in the end build enough mutalisks to own me.
What are my faults? And plz think, that a better Zerg would not have let his zerglings run into my lots outside of his crawler reach.
Thx for feedback!
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People tend to forget that DT's can become archons as well ^^ if you're gas starved just make a 200 gas archon instead of 300. Storm is really important to have though
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this is such a good guide, maybe now i can finally win ZvP games ahhahahah :D THANKS ZANEZ
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zerg player here. great post. really spot on. to anyone who reads this: this is what a post should look like!! Thanks for the contribution.
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Thanks all! Glad you enjoy my guide and find it useful
On October 15 2010 01:09 CuChullain wrote:Here we go. Best guide about the Muta/ Ling thign i've read. I've read through the whole post and it works fine. But there are still some problems for me. Me, P Diamond 1176 vs. Z Diamond 1266: As I scouted the early expansion i planned my timing push with +1 upgrade and did so: Fail. that is the first problem: I can't get through spinecrawlers at all. As i've seen him pumping more and more lings i knew he was going for Mutas. So I hold on the pressure. The Point is, that he even did not micro well and that is also disappointing. I could easily lure his lings towards my lots, easily block them and kill them with stalker. But as much as i set pressure on him, he could always hold me off and in the end build enough mutalisks to own me. What are my faults? And plz think, that a better Zerg would not have let his zerglings run into my lots outside of his crawler reach. Thx for feedback!
PM brought my attention back here.
I watched your replay, and really this is less of advice against Muta/Ling than just general ways to improve your play. 1st. Your +1 attack push was quick, well timed and pretty decent. The problem was that he scouted your forge, saw that it was pushing for the early +1 attack and prepared the perfect defense... Spinecrawlers. You weren't going to break the Spinecrawlers with that build, sadly. As soon as you saw them, you should have backed away. Instead you just sent wave after wave of soliders at his solid defense, and lost them every time, giving him all the time he needed to build up to Mutas and a ton of lings with next to no threat.
Some advice here...
1. Build your forge further back or hidden somewhere where he can't or won't scout. That +1 attack relies on the element of surprise more than speed, and when he scouted that, it went out the window. If he didn't see it coming, and had no Spinecralwers, you would have been fine. Honestly even, you could honestly stand to have a later +1 attack even... maybe get a Cybernetics Core up first and go with a larger army, consisting of a few Stalkers to focus any Spines they may have. 2. Make sure you cut your losses when you lose. THERE IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SUICIDING YOUR ARMY AND LAYING PRESSURE. You continued sending large waves of attacks at a defensive position that you were certainly not going to break. When you lose such a crushing defeat, it would honestly be best to sit back and build up. You had a large window of time between your first failure attack and the time that Mutalisks came out that you could have had a nice large army by the time they were there. In order to lay pressure, you should be ducking in and out, just outside of spinecrawler range, taking a few hits to your shields here and there... you don't need to attack him, you just need to make him THINK you are going to attack him. I posted this in my OP. This seems to be what you are having trouble with
Pretty much, what this means, is that Zerg are unstoppable when left to their own thing, and are very vulnerable to pressure. If you force them to keep building units by picking off troops, standing outside their base, and doing minor attacks, you slow them down immensely. This doesn't mean you ever attack them head on, but means you keep them THINKING you will attack them head on. This is not always easy...
3. Don't be afraid to stay in your base with your army. When the Mutalisks hit, you were warping your entire army all the way across the map. Yeah that didn't work too well.
A big key to fighting this build is to attack when the Mutalisks come out. Before the Mutalisks are out, they have a relatively strong defense of lings and Spinecrawlers, because most of their money has been going towards these units that are very strong on defense. When Mutalisks come out, they will spend ALL their money on Mutalisks (which are very poor on defense). This is the time you want to attack. You attacked all-in before he even got Mutalisks. His weakness hadn't appeared yet.
Hope this helped. Any questions on things I didn't clear up? More than happy to help any way I can
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Okay thank you very much. Some nice little details like the hidden forge and the point, that Z is strong in defending until he invest hardcore in Mutas are nice things to know. Perhaps add this to your guide :-) Thank you very much for the help.
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http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/90865-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns
Here's a replay of FE vs zerg where he goes muta/ling. You'll see just how behind I am going into the midgame against the double expo and no pressure but also how pheonixes in signifigant numbers (not just 1 or 2) will dominate mutas and force him to add corruptors.
He doesn't transition to hydras which was what I was afraid of, but I can tell you what I would have done if he did transition (as I was thinking about it)
1) Hydras mean no mutas. Stop pheonix production and take air superiority. Use air superiority to kill ovies and delay hydra production to buy time, as well as scout him thouroughly.
2) Add 2 gateways. If you notice I got charge against muta/ling - this was soley incase he got hydras. While hydras do beat zealots, they go down in small numbers without tanks.
3) Add sentries and more upgrades. Sentries against hydra you say? Heresy! Not so. Sentries are awesome because FF can really trap hydras if you use it well. When hydras get trapped against zealots they honestly are not really that effective.
4) tech to templar. duh.
But honestly the most important thing about this is that you need zealots, and you need +1 weapons over his armor. Always, always get +1 weapons or else it's going to cost you so much more in terms of minerals spent on zealots, supply spent on zealots, and warp gate cooldowns spent on zealots.
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My mass mutas strategy doesn't work when toss do mass pheonixes strategy with his ramp lock. Then pheonixes chase down the overlords and kill queen plus workers. ..........I guess fast stargate with secure ramp lock is the way to go.
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