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Hey guys, if you roam around here often, you know I make lots of [H] threads because for 2 months I started up at bronze league, 100% new to RTS games, and with your help and my practice, I'm a 1300 point platinum player (rank 5... come on diamond leagueee!!!!).
Anyways, everytime when I queue and get a protoss player, I sigh as I have like a 20% win against them lol. It's horrible.
My worst enemy: The stalker.
Oh my god is that unit impossible for me. I start the game 14 gas 14 pool, getting an early roach attack out hoping to punish him early for having zealots on the field. No dice. He has 1 stalker 4 zealots by the time I come out, more stalkers to come, and I am on equal field.
So I take an expo, throw up 3 crawlers. Mass up some roaches and power-drone. Hoping I'll win the eco game. If I see a 4 pool, it's like GG because there's no way with 4 crawlers, 2 queens, and my roach army do I ever win. Or, he goes 3 gate robo, secures a second base, and I feel like I'm done for.
I try to punish these decrepid stalkers by going hydras. No dice either. He seems to kill them at a 1:1 rate. No matter what, I will never have enough lings to take care of the stalkers.
Finally, I have a decent roach/hydra army up, maybe even tried to take a 2nd expo, and here comes collosus push. Game over.
I honestly have no idea how to beat protoss. Every game I've tried to FE against a protoss, he uses two gate pressure and forces me into roaches, then gets stalkers up and I'll never have the lings to kill his stalkers, and it's a straight downhill game from there.
I know one problem of mine is I never get Tier 3. Probably because I have no idea when it's appropriate, and I'm always struggling just to have an army at the current moment to deal with his ball of gateway pain.
So can anyone help me on this? Does anyone have personal replays (not pro replays) that they could narrate a bit to explain the ZvP fight. Some common strategies and why/how they work? Because right now, I feel like Protoss is pretty unbeatable to me, especially if they 4 gate.
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you should try a more macro oriented build
either 15 hatch/14 pool or 14 pool/15 hatch. there is really no need to get gas before pool against protoss. both these builds can hold against any 2 gate zealot pressure except proxy. by using the fast roach build and then essentially doing a roach rush, you are putting yourself into a position where you MUST do damage, or you'll be behind economically.
15 hatch is better, but on 2p maps, and even on some 4p maps, good protoss will be able to delay your expansion with their scouting probe and really mess up your BO
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Try the dimaga-strat against 4-Gate. Search for it on TL, it's the only build I go against Protoss! Also, it makes me have a better knowledge of when to tech to t3, which is ASAP!
XiGua
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Hydras will beat out gateway units- stalkers included. robo tech is what normally screws over roach hydra, but honestly hydras are your best buddy UNTIL he gets colos.
Oh and definitely FE is way better than gas opening against P
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Against protoss I try to make sure I am on 2-base and that I have a good amount of raoches on minute 7. Then I start teching towards Hydras, but when my scout sees the incoming 4 gate, then I start making speedlings. The trick is to hide your speedlings, or not use your speedlings in the start of the fight. But micro your roaches on creep, attack and bit back, attack and bit back. If the enemy starts doubting then use those speedslings. OR when the zealots are dead/without shields.
Imho roaches stops the push from protoss that hits you around minute 7-8. Because you are on 2-base and you should have that creep advantage. Make sure to make 2 early queens and spread that creep.
If he delays his initial push and hits you on minute 10-11 you have hydras. And remember! Micro your army on creep. Attack and back, attack and back. Good micro wins against toss 4-gate.
EDIT: after you defeated his first push trow down that spire. If toss sees hydras he will get collosus. Get 4 corrupters. And remember, when he has collosus, then again you should be microing that army. If you are on 3 base with 6 geysers. Start massing mutas. He wont be able to stop it and he wont have pheonix out because he saw you going hydras.
Roach/hydra/ling into muta/ling wins.
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~1200 P
When I see a Zerg making Hydras I'm relieved. They are SO much easier to deal with than Zergs speedy units: Mutas and Speedlings.
Mass Ling/Infestor to Hive is a real pain. I've seen Artosis using this alot and I believe its what is referred to as Dimaga's Style.
Muta/Ling is annoying too. Use Roaches if necessary to hold off a very aggressive push. Either that or a million Spines (6-8) at your nat is pretty much impossible to break until you get enough Mutas to be a real pain in the ass.
The Protoss army is very slow. Used Speedling runbys/surrounds and/or Muta harrass to keep my army at bay while you get a third and the appropriate Hive tech.
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Bumping for relevance, but thank you guys soo much for the first couple responses.
Basically, I've tried the fast expanding trick; however, I am super afraid of 2 gates and 4 gates.
3 gate robo, I do fine so long as I keep up the macro game and make sure I am 1-2 bases above my opponent.
The biggest change in my gameplay is making sure I get ultras out pretty quickly as they seem like very efficient units against almost all protoss units and the ability to pump out multiple T3 units makes Zerg shine as I am learning.
What other input do you guys have?
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Dimaga pretty solve th 3 gate robo and 4 gates ! The things is pure lings do an awsoeme on stalker. The build looks like: 9 ovie 15 gaz 14 pool 15 ovie 16 Queen Get speed when pool spawn and take of 2 drone from gaz 21 expo then drone up to 26-31 24-26 evo chamber and get +1 attack After that u go pure lings and lots and lots of lings with +1 attack and with extra money throw some spine at your nat. In the mean times drone up yoir expo... Get lair! Then dimaga tend to transition into ultralisk with own stalker colossus.
So this build is kind of passive but it will let you safely saturate 2 base and tech to ultra while holdong any 4gates or 3 gates robo push!
Look it on tl zvp dimaga style there is some replays this build is geniuis !
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1300 plat rank 4 Would not advise getting roaches against stalkers.
In general scouting and spreading creep will do wonders for you. Upgraded speedlings do amazing at any stage of the game against stalkers even those with blink. If its collosus that seem to melt ur ling/ground army, why not get some mutas.
Another solution would be that with an incorporation of hydras, but then creep spread becomes much more vital as u know how slow hydras are without creep and will not get into a decent enough position to actually do the 16 or so dps they can. And of course while picking off the collosus with the mutas. or flanking with speedlings.
This is all much easier on two or more bases of course. And by easier I probably mean necessary as you wont have enough gas for enough mutas and hydras on 1. If fear of early pressure keeps u from doing this, get some early 13pool13gas or 14/13 speedlings in order to ensure he will not push without fear of a run-in to his base + speedlings around his base will alert u to any pressure he will attempt.
Good overlord placement is also advisable as scouting makes everything easier. A 9 scout will alert u to 2gate pressure which may come upon which u can simply throw down an earlier pool if necessary and get those spines up to defend, either at ur main or natural depending on map. And of course if he expands u can simply out expand him more safely imo, ur zerg. If your afraid of stargate play early, make some more queens. err... think thats about it If he does the crappy wall off with pylons just tech and throw down spines while spreading creep so u can just get the pylons with the phallus monsters. And of course for 4gates. Scout for when the push is coming, but doesn't have to be actively, the few lings/ovies around his base should alert you so keep an eye on the minimap. If one is coming throw down some crawlers and move some of ur zerglings out onto the map where the protoss will not encounter. When the push hits the crawlers flank with the lings so he cannot run[easily].
In general scouting and spreading creep will do wonders for you. So do it ;].
This post seemed alot more like a general pvz q when i read through it so there you go.
I typically consider protoss at our level the easiest race to deal with. unless of course somewhere along u dunt finish them b4 they have enough phoenixs dts. Those games are hell. But typically much better than crappy zvz.
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Dimaga build is nice... but I honestly dont see how any zerg could have trouble with stalkers so early in the game. Simply ling up, if they are extremely zealot heavy, you can even throw down a baneling nest. A couple roaches are nice but, being ling heavy is where you wanna be to drone/tech. The only time I go roaches so early is with the 5 roach rush lol.
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A replay would be very helpful to see what is exactly going on. Instead of the toss "forcing" you into roaches, tech roaches. They are soooo good after the patch. grab +1/1+ on them and use lings to surround the stalkers.
Once you grab lair, grab your roach speed and you can then go in a few directions. Either spire or hydra den first. Hydras eat early pressure like no ones buisness. roaches tank really well for your hydras. Keep upgrades up and get to 3 base asap. Then grab spire and ultralisk caverns once you are on 3 gas.
Become ok with sacrificing speed overlords to scout their tech. If they have colossi, make like 10 corruptors then pump lings, roach, hydra, ultras. Zerg needs a diverse unit mixture to be powerful. If corruptors are still alive, make some brood lords. they are incredibly powerful against toss if positioned well.
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Well if he is going 4 warpgate then there is a very very easy way to beat the protoss.
get your fast expand at ~15. drone up at 5mins put down a roach warren. as soon as the roach warren is up keep spamming roaches and don't stop mass producing them. Get your queens to keep jizzing in those hatches and keep making roaches.
Yes one on one stalkers beat roaches but roaches are half price, mass roaches will rape gateway builds.
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Speedlings are your best friend against stalkers. Throw in some fungal growth and he's done for.
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you really need to post a replay of your games vs protoss, at platinum lvl i had no problem with my zvp but at mid diamond & especially since i've moved from sea to n/a server, there alot more agro & some of the strats are so new to me there completely destroying me, 3 gate stargate espically & no protoss seems to like to macro in n/a but thats anther story :D.
my best advice is speedlings completely destroy stalker based army's, the only trick is getting good surrounds and baiting them into wasting force-fields.
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On October 18 2010 09:15 BOOWOO wrote: ~1200 P
When I see a Zerg making Hydras I'm relieved. They are SO much easier to deal with than Zergs speedy units: Mutas and Speedlings.
Mass Ling/Infestor to Hive is a real pain. I've seen Artosis using this alot and I believe its what is referred to as Dimaga's Style.
Muta/Ling is annoying too. Use Roaches if necessary to hold off a very aggressive push. Either that or a million Spines (6-8) at your nat is pretty much impossible to break until you get enough Mutas to be a real pain in the ass.
The Protoss army is very slow. Used Speedling runbys/surrounds and/or Muta harrass to keep my army at bay while you get a third and the appropriate Hive tech.
While Playing As Zerg I have found that Mutas just win. haha Always get Mutas against Toss. I like roach muta personally, and since u are holding off till the colossi with roachs I say just go with Mutas instead of Hydras and you will be set. this one alteration greatly changed the outcome of my games. and your third base is very important to secure for ultralisk tech (which is Instant win tech BTW)
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On October 19 2010 11:39 Selendis wrote: Well if he is going 4 warpgate then there is a very very easy way to beat the protoss.
get your fast expand at ~15. drone up at 5mins put down a roach warren. as soon as the roach warren is up keep spamming roaches and don't stop mass producing them. Get your queens to keep jizzing in those hatches and keep making roaches.
Yes one on one stalkers beat roaches but roaches are half price, mass roaches will rape gateway builds.
would not advise getting roaches against stalkers. By his logic one should get crawlers as they do much more dmg compared to roaches or stalkers. Just let the 4gate push try to push to the crawlers, and when they do just flank em with lings (i advised having some lings out on the map if u suspect a 4gate push is coming.) Besides those lings give u map control anyway.
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Hey!
This post is coming from a 1200 Diamond Protoss player, and by far Zerg is my worst match up.
Mutaling has become a standard ZvP build it truly abuses mobility, and with the low critical mass of Mutas, it's easy for it to become overwhelming. Taking advantage of an Expo build, switching back and fourth with ~10 mutas is devastating, and being stalkers are nearly always the weapon of choice, Speedlings coupled with mutas is simply insane to work with.
Scout early to know what's up, whether you should FE or stay inside your base. Spine crawlers are an AMAZING defensive unit, 4-5 will keep MOST strong pushes away coupled with a few lings, and because of speelings being more of a mineral dump, the money isn't 100% wasted. Mutas shouldn't really be used to attack directly, but to harass and contain, keeping him in his base as you expand.
I'm not a Zerg player as I stated before, and I know there is a LP thread on this exact build, if you can get this one build down pact, you'll see your performance skyrocket, glhf!
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Hey i'm a 1700 diamond zerg lemme help you out a little. Stalkers get OWNED by speedlings early game. Also, 15 hatch is REALLY strong now with the zealot nerf so i strongly recommend, I usually don't do anything other then that unless i want to all in. If you see heavy zealots get a few roaches and 1-3 spine crawlers and tech to lair. Make sure your still making a few drones because you can't lose to zealots if you've got your roaches out. Make sure to always poke zerglings up to see whats happening. My personal build i've been doing lately is 2 base roach ling early game and deny their pressure and try to contain. Throw down an expo then a spire and go muta ling roach. Send mutas into their main when you push their nat with roach ling then just back off with your ground army and kill his probes. Don't try to attack protoss head on. What you wanna do is just harass the crap out of him. Early game if he tries to move out just run your speedlings in and try to destroy his probeline. Trust me harass is the key, so hope this helps :D
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Muta/ling is really tough to hold off as Protoss. You might want to try that as others have suggested.
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