I'm Geiko, Sc2 player since Beta, currently mediocre diamond (~1800) in 1v1 and formally pretty high up in the 2v2 world ladder (somewhere around top60 World - top25 Europe according to sc2ranks).
The build I'm here to talk about is the build that has gotten me and my partner to top 25 EU in 2v2, and by that i mean, we ONLY did this one build. I've had fun with it, but it's getting pretty boring winning only like this so i now feel ready to share with the SC2 community and hopefully get some feedback. At this point, I'd just like to note that i am NOT bragging about having been top x in any ladder, as everyone knows the 2v2 ladder isn't that competitive. Just stating it to emphasize on the fact that we've been testing this build against the best 2v2 players and that this is not some Gold division post claiming that double 6 pool is imba or god knows.
Out of the hundred or so games I've played, we still haven't found anyone that could counter the build assuming no mistakes from us and other conditions which I'll talk about later.
The build :
Protoss : 5 WG rush with a proxy pylon under the cliff of each base
10 extractor (start the extractor when you have 100minerals)-> 2 workers on it. Stop when 100 gas 9 pool 10 overlord 11 queen -> only use for larva inject 13 zergling 14 zergling speed 14 zergling 15 overlord 15+ zerglings and overlords
At this point, most of the readers are disappointed i think ! WG + overlord is a pretty known combo after all and the build isn't anything really new in itself. However, what makes it so strong is the added timing considerations, and optimizations.
You all understood the aim of the build was to warp zealots in the opponent's base thanks to overlord vision, with zergling supporting / distracting / intercepting the guy's ally. Now, let's get to why this build works.
Why it works :
4 WG rush (korean rush) is a pretty aggressive and effective build in 1v1. This 5 WG is even scarier. -not scouted immediately compared to 1v1 -no need for 3 or 4 in-base pylons : 1 pylon outside the base and out of harm's way is enough. This allows you to afford a 5th gateway with zealot production. -unbeatable mobility : if somehow the guy's ally manages to come help. You can warp 5 zealots at that other guy's base where he doesn't have his army.
The 24 speedling push is incredibly effective. it's designed to be at maximum power at around 4:40. This means that no zerg can have a bigger army at that point in time, no matter the build (i used the evolution chamber program i admit it). For that matter, i think no race can have a more effective army at that point in time (at least not in open field). The 4:40 timing is critical : that's when you'll HAVE to have map control in order to protect the proxy probe. The build fails miserably if you lose your proxy probe/proxy Pylon. I guarantee you that 24 speedlings will keep that probe safe, no matter if your opponents scout it / know it's coming.
Ever played Counter Strike ? Well be ready to "Protect the VIP team"
To sum it up : the build works because 5 zealots constant production and 24+ speedling in one guy's base is insanely strong at ~5:15. The build is OP because warp gate tech and zergling speed means you can switch instantly from one base to the other. All the above is if everything goes as planned and we reach the 5:15 mark without being bothered. that's obviously not always the case, we will now answer the most important question regarding any build :
When does it work ?
Surprisingly, pretty much against anything that is >12 gate or >12pool. That is to say : If i see an overlord before pool, or a slower gate than mine, I already know I've won. Since terran nerf, they can't really throw anything at you before 5 minutes anyways. This is the reason for the provocative title. It's unbeatable if you try to do anything standard (that is to say, if you don't do a very aggressive opening before scouting).
How about when it doesn't work ?
The beauty about this opening is that it is cheese-proof, and early-aggression proof. The scouting probe at 10 tells you if you can proceed with the build or not. 1 guy being aggressive and the other guy teching : you can proceed. 2 guys aggressive/cheesy, switch to standard 10/12 double gate and you're good to play a regular game with a slight advantage. Zerg can delay queen to get 6 lings out faster. 10gate / 10 pool is the best opening against any kind of cheese.
Replay or it didn't happen ?
As I've said in the introduction, we've been well ranked for a while so we got to play with pretty good teams out there. This first replay is against Ore (one of the best female European player of SC-BW) and mouzDreiven (a pretty well known semi pro BW player). Interesting replay because it shows our strategy up against 10/12gate and 3racks aggressive builds. These player are far better than us but we still take the game. (you can notice skill difference by how he almost manages to pull back in the game 1vs2. yes , we are really that bad :D )
The second replay is us against Honor and Zephy (currently sitting at top 20 world ladder top 10 European ladder). Pretty Standard 14 gas/14 pool and 14 gate. I like this replay for three things : -Notice how we completely screw up when my ally forgets to send his zerglings to protect my pylon. We still manage to win even after a huge blunder like that. -The build is scouted but they can't do anything about it. -Got to love that rage at the end ^^
Third replay is by uTnMyLife and unhealthy. They are doing my build, up against mTwDeMusliM and ToD (professional war3 player) and showing them how it's done ! 14 Pool / 13 gate standard opening for the pro team.
4th game against yet another high ranked team in the world ladder ryusaki and delusion (rank 12 world, rank 5 Eu). bbs and SerDiuk were nice enough to submit this replay. they appearently went from gold division to playing (and beating) top players in 2v2 with a 25-0 win/loss using only this strat. A couple of mistakes here and there while executing the build, but they manage to pull it off nonetheless. in this replay, T going for marauder heavy army, while Z is getting banelings (14 pool)
Possible Limitations ?
Harder to pull off on common base maps. Especially with terran wall-off. Does still work however. Might want to alter the build for zergs into a fast baneling bust. While extremely effective vs any team with a protoss, it gets a little bit more complicated with zergs rushing roach and terrans rushing marauders while walling off. In that case, putting 2 zealots in mineral line and 3 zealots pounding at the front wall with zerglings works well.
Conclusion :
Hope you enjoyed the build. This is an extremely powerful cheese/all-in that will really work wonders if you want to win a game easily. If you want to actually learn how to play, don't do this to climb the ladder :D. We've come to the conclusion that in separate base maps, anything later then 10 gate 10 pool will get demolished no matter what. I'm still searching for a counter, so if anyone finds one, feel free to post it here !
Credits :
-Tester for the 4WG rush (or whoever he got it from) -The evolution chamber optimizing program for that sweet 24 spling rush -Blizzard for patch 1.1.2. Our build was already overpowered at release. But without the possibility of repearling, its just much more comfortable. Keep on balancing 2v2 blizzard !
Arg sorry about that, forgot to write in the BO you had to stop gaz production after the first 50. This is a slight variation of the standard 4WG rush so you do have to pull probes from gaz after 50 (i do it in the replays) Once you have warped in a couple rounds of zealots however, you can get some guys back in gas as you'll probably be needing stalkers
What you're forgetting is that a solid 1 base all in play can still lose 1on2 later on vs people that play macro or tech orientated. Sure your push is very solid at killing of one guy right away, but that's also how 2on2 works.
You even mention that "They almost beat us 1on2, that's how bad we are". No, that's how 2on2 works. You either go for a full push, or you base on late game and 1on2'ing with a better macro situation where one guys micros the army and the other just macros up.
In this case, it's all about the one guy that's being attacked survives as long as possible while the other guy macros up and then go ahead and kills your push. I mean you only have lings+zealots.
So u push out from ur base at around 5 minute mark with this build. Well ye its quite strong. Me and my friend are around 1600 diamond and we doing 3 roach + 2 Marauder + 2 Marine push at 4:00 - i think ur build wouldnt be quite ready at that time to defend effective but i can see it can easly punish any teching build - what i dont like about it is WEAK effectiveness against proper wall-off. I mean few bunkers or multiple cannons (like over 5) - imo at 5:15 they can already have quite a few of them, and the last problem i can see is again when they have shared base and good wall (not 1 depot wall) with quite a lot of RANGED units will be severe pain for u as u got 0 ranged units. Thats the reason why we changed from PZ to TZ - stalkers were to slow to get at 4:00 and zelots without speed are easy to kite and weak vs walls. Anyway nice post love ppl posting 2vs2 builds gj
@kasta, its true that if we take too long to kill off the first player, it might get tricky for us late game. However, this isn't theorycraft as we've thouroughly tested this build. By experience, a player that we attack at 1vs2 and isn't helped by his ally will fall in a matter of seconds with minimal loss for us. Our mobility and the possibility to warp zealots behind walls means we can finish off the second guy fast. At least i haven't encountered anyone who successfully 1vs2ed us after this.
@jarlax : Yep, timing pushes like the one you describe are a pain. I think we could pull it off as we do have 24 splings 30 seconds after your push, which are enough to take out your combined force. However, most probably after scouting a 10 pool/gas + 2 racks we would most probably switch to a defensive build and do just fine against it.
@skyR : Actually, it's unbeatable vs anyone going >12 gate or >12 pool. As i've stated in the post, if you scout early aggression, you have the best opening to react accordingly and go with a defensive build. We already had a couple of 60 or so games played before starting this strategy, and another 20 or so getting it right. At the end, our win rate was 100% vs standard play and pretty damn near 0% vs aggressive play as we weren't good enough to compete against those guys in a normal match. However, our opening allows good players to defend remarquably against other good players being aggressive. Terrans teching to hellions are not a concern. Zealots in mineral line > hellions killing zealots in 20 hits.
on most of the 2v2 map pool, it's either shared base or the two players can build below the ramp to create an extended walloff between the two bases. That's what my partner and I do (double toss).
At 4:40 we have 2 stalkers and 5 zlots about 5 seconds from your base, which seems like a close fight vs 24 lings, so idunno what would happen if we went for the attack.
At 5:15 we have 4 stalkers and ~9 (forget) zealots, and a cannon warping in at the front. Zerglings can't do anything vs wallin + 2 zlots + 1 stalker, so I guess at that point it comes down to whether your warpins can >> our combined armies, or kill enough probes, or stall long enough for your z friend to get banelings AND keep us from getting enough sentries to protect the wallin. Seems like a close battle where the winner will be whoever plays better.
On maps where our mains are distant your build would be pretty ridiculous, but TBH dual toss suuuuuck at those maps.
Oh, we do 10gate/15gate for the zlots, and 14/16 gate for the stalkers.
How about instead of 5WG + 24 lings, youo do marines+SCVs and 24 lings? Should be more consistent when dealing with the exceptions where the pylons get killed and you dont have the units to shoot past block-offs?
Interesting, but I'm questioning its efficacy against a clean defense, unless it goes undetected.
Two-barracks Terran has enough marines to kill your warping zealots, and a wall-in to keep out Zerglings. A Zerg player will have Roach, or Roach/Ling, or mass Speedling, or Ling/Baneling... and the option to produce additional queens/spines/simcity for defense.
You'll probably roll the shit out of Protoss Warpgate openings, though.
Double 2 gate would beat this... The only reason this build is so strong is because the vast majority of 2v2 players are noobs that don't understand how to counter kr4gate, and because speedings are just fucking fast so it's almost always a 2v1 scenario...
Quick question, why a 5gate instead of the standard kr4gate?
Seems like a double Z could counter this pretty easily with spines+roaches assuming they aren't clueless with their scouting (both your builds are extremely easy to pick out...
Any sort of ZZ double ling play would crush this since P has absolutely nothing until warpgate finishes and it turns into 2v1.
Gas variant kr4gate vs regular kr4gate wins if you both happen to do that build.
2 rax+other builds hitting before that time would win.
Basically any build by any race that beats the kr4gate wins because it just turns into a 2v1 until the protoss gets his shit done...
@Keilah : Our build does pretty ok against pushes that come a little before 5 minutes because of defender's advantage. If they are being aggressive, i can put down a extra pylon at my ally's base. He can stall for time with his 10 or so zerglings running around your army and threatening to kill reinforcing units. Once we finally manage to kill your attacking force, even if we lose a little back home, we can instantly counter-attack with 5 zealots and what's left of zerglings.
@uncultured : Once we have had enough training, yes we were at 100% winrate when we decide to do it (we don't see any aggressive build coming before 5minutes).
@ktp : We vetoed discord, twilight and war zone. our favorite map is tarsonis against none zergs because protoss doesn't even need the overlords and even if they scout it, they can't kill the pylon which is on high ground :p
@Severedevil : Against a two barrack player, we'de probably attack his ally 2v1. good luck getting those slow marines to help your buddy, especially when we know marines suck so much on open ground. Now if both players are terran and both are going 2 racks, that's a situation when we wouldn't do our build, or i was thinking of a baneling opening vs dual terrans... again, in situations where the others have enough stuff to counter you, that means they had to do some early production buildings which are scouted by the 9 probe. If you decide not to do the build, you are still in the best shape possible with the correct opening to counter early aggression.
@Lobber : 5WG instead of 4WG is a critical change for this build to work. 4WG is counterable as we've seen in 1v1. 5WG is pretty out of control... you can afford it because you save on in base pylons and the high ground vision is pretty much free (free overlords). 5WG no one can hold alone with a >12 gate opening. If you look at the replay with Honor and Zephy. He has 4 WGs to defend but that extra zealot that pops out just demolishes him. In the end, 4 zealots lose vs 5 zealots, and 8 zealots get demolished by 10 zealots. overall, the build seems very week on paper (i mean : zealots and zerglings ...) but in practise, we just have too much stuff. Double Z with > 12 pool will NOT have more zerglings combined than what my ally has. At least not with speed which pretty much the same as having no zerglings at all. And as i've said multiple times, any super fast double racks, roach, zealot push requires a 10 gate, 10 pool, early double racks which is easily scoutable by us. I'll say it (yet) again, this build is strong because : if they go >12 gate > 12 pool, we won as nothing of interest will be coming before 5 minutes that we can't kill. If they go 10 gate, 10 pool double racks, we have the best opening to react (10 gate, 10 pool)
@everyone : i encourage you to try out the build ! It seams really weak on paper but i assure you it is frightening. Even against walling off terrans, you can go for the wall in with your zealots instead of the mineral lines while your ally 1as the wall from the outside and eventualy you will win. Also, I would be VERY interested to see a replay of this strat losing to >12gate/pook/double racks on separate base locations.
What I want to know is how aristeo and cubert are at a 92% win ratio )=
yea..... that is pretty sick, + they are not playing their regular 1v1 races in 2v2, so they must have some incredibly strong cheesy build to win every time.
@Skillver : As said in the OP, we were Formally top25 EU at the time where 1700 points was good We've stopped laddering on 2v2 because the same strat over and over agains does get boring, even if you win alot. http://www.sc2ranks.com/team/4405050http://www.sc2ranks.com/team/4405050 We were a little over top 60 world back in the days, The curve here shows top64 max, but we must've forgotten to update. That was about top 25 Europe at that time.
@oakstream : Yeah, we've played against Aristeo and Cubert, and sadly enough, we lost because we hadn't perfected our build... We slopelly let our proxy pylon die without defending it i would love a rematch to see how they deal with this when we don't screw up
Well this is a good tactic, but it is counter able. I have seen enough post here that counter this build. Here is another one: Terran and Terran walling off and opening both with 2 rax and make rines. If they just pick of your overlord, you cant warp anymore units into his base.
And if you manage to get the first 5 zealots in his base and harass the mineral line. Mules will still give you plenty enough minerals to build on.
But you can also addept your tactic with some gas to warp in some stalkers against Terran and Terran or even tech up to a immortal.
But now people know about this build, so if they scout it. They can addept and it doens't mather what race they play.
Yep, double terran wall off is a concern for this build although you can adapt.
Against terran, you might want to put up 2 proxy pylons and keep them farthest away from the cliff as possible. They'll have a hard time taking them down before the warp in and they can't shoot it from outside their base. Also, shooting down the overlord is not an option as they would have to go outside their base where glings would surround them.
How does this strategy guarantee victory over double 6 pool rush on your zerg ally? or overlord cliff scouting your proxy pylon or speedling runby counter or aggressive bspling pressure?
Standard early pressure would force you to build zealots to defend while destroying your strategy in the process.
I love seeing stuff like this, attempts to make nearly-gamebreaking combinations of units in a 2v2. I love the overlord/WG concept as well... things that wouldn't occur to just anyone. Thanks for posting this instead of keeping it a secret like many players would.
I'm curious how much more gamebreaking things could get with a 3v3 combo... though I wonder if overpowered rushes actually become less worthwhile, since you're taking out only 1/3 of the opponents and 2/3 are free to counterattack you.
I can't imagine what Aristeo/Cubert are doing. I really don't think it's simply strong overall play, I don't think a 92.3% winrate happens without one or more extremely well-rehearsed gameplans. Maybe Nestea and Nada could pull it off, going heavy defense and a powerful macro game, but I doubt it.
That team is 397-33. Think about it. That's insane.
On November 21 2010 23:14 FishForThought wrote: How does this strategy guarantee victory over double 6 pool rush on your zerg ally? or overlord cliff scouting your proxy pylon or speedling runby counter or aggressive bspling pressure?
Standard early pressure would force you to build zealots to defend while destroying your strategy in the process.
because even if you kill the zerg the protoss 4 gate zealots CAN destroy both zergs - since im playing zerg this happened more than once to me
on topic i find it quite sad that team games are still all about cheese
I never was a fan of early warpgates in 2v2.. but I guess this strat would be better against any sort of wall-off.
Me and my team-mate have been having some success with a hilarious 10 zealot 7 roach push at the 5 minute mark. Pretty tidy composition nearly always narrows it down to 1v2 if you micro correctly. The Toss has trouble transitioning out of it (14 probes, no gas, no cybo), but the Zerg isn't too far behind eco-wise., and if you nail one of the players you've made up for your macro loss anyway.
24 speedlings though.. I might try going for a 9 zealot 24 speedling push @ 4:40 if my team-mate can do this as well as you seem to suggest!
exaclty because of builds like this, there is no point in playing 2v2 imo. every single game is all-in with the lamest unit combos ever. teching = loss, expo = loss. it doesnt even matter which units u get, aslong as u have atleast over 9000 of them.
lings (+some blings)+stalker lings(+some blings)+marauder proxy mass marines+zeals
99% of the so called "top" 2v2 players only get carried by their build/unit combo.
On November 21 2010 23:29 Chocobo wrote: I love seeing stuff like this, attempts to make nearly-gamebreaking combinations of units in a 2v2. I love the overlord/WG concept as well... things that wouldn't occur to just anyone. Thanks for posting this instead of keeping it a secret like many players would.
I'm curious how much more gamebreaking things could get with a 3v3 combo... though I wonder if overpowered rushes actually become less worthwhile, since you're taking out only 1/3 of the opponents and 2/3 are free to counterattack you.
I can't imagine what Aristeo/Cubert are doing. I really don't think it's simply strong overall play, I don't think a 92.3% winrate happens without one or more extremely well-rehearsed gameplans. Maybe Nestea and Nada could pull it off, going heavy defense and a powerful macro game, but I doubt it.
That team is 397-33. Think about it. That's insane.
Here's when I PMed them awhile back:
Hi. We are doing nothing special xD Just playing agressive almost all games with timing/situation pushes mostly with banelings (our rushes is rare because playing safe). Beating rushes with standart openings 13pool+13gate (or early if there is extreme rush). Also scouting against any team with Random on 7th probe. For example against 7pool and proxy reapers 12 - 13 gates and 11 or 12 pool works well. Even if I dead zerg can win 1vs2, if I wasted enough opponent's time.
On November 22 2010 02:31 Lucius2 wrote: exaclty because of builds like this, there is no point in playing 2v2 imo. every single game is all-in with the lamest unit combos ever. teching = loss, expo = loss. it doesnt even matter which units u get, aslong as u have atleast over 9000 of them.
lings (+some blings)+stalker lings(+some blings)+marauder proxy mass marines+zeals
99% of the so called "top" 2v2 players only get carried by their build/unit combo.
i gave up playing this long time ago
False. I'm in the top 40 and me and my partner do mostly FE and tech play. You just have to play vs every permutation of all-ins to know how to respond.
The only real reason people don't like this thread is because of it being called "unbeatable." But I, who would like a good build to rack up some team game wins, really appreciates this.
On November 22 2010 03:17 cubert wrote: Time of only rush/push has gone. Good players usually play safe builds with going to macro and 20+ minutes games is nothing special now in 2v2.
Im drooling just looking at your profile Whats you're favorite 2v2 race if your ally is Zerg?
On November 22 2010 03:24 dokphenom3 wrote: Gas steal and proxy cannons beats this
Double gas steal on protoss is SUCH a pain. We've found the counter to that, just have zerg harvest gas with 3 workers instead of 2. Then the zerg leaves and protoss finishes the game 1 Vs 2. (Yes it's lame, but when you are cheesing, you might as well do it right !)
Double 3 gate push ( so 6 warp gate ) with one person going heavy stalker and one going heavy zeal/sentry gets there early enough and is usually too overwhelming. With only 3 gates in use you can tech/expo while attacking with that first push. Since it's the standard opening it also handles all cheese pretty easily.
This is was I do with my teammate in PPvXX and our win ratio is pretty impressive, i think close to 80%.
its not unbeatable, ive lost with it, ive won against it. its a strong opening for sure, but im not even convinced that halting gas and going 5 gate is better than just doing k18g with gas
On November 22 2010 03:42 summerloud wrote: its not unbeatable, ive lost with it, ive won against it. its a strong opening for sure, but im not even convinced that halting gas and going 5 gate is better than just doing k18g with gas
If ever you win against this, or lose while doing it again, could you send me the replays ?
Im drooling just looking at your profile Whats you're favorite 2v2 race if your ally is Zerg?
We have switched from PZ to TZ after few loses against cheese before the patch nerfed terran rush. Now PZ and TZ nearly balanced, but we don't want back. TZ is more safe vs rushes.
I don't know if they've changed their strat since the last few patches, but before 1.1, they did zerg gas-first speedling/baneling, and protoss stalkers.
On bigger maps, or when the game goes to mid-game, zerg switches to muta/ling, protoss techs to HT.
On November 21 2010 23:29 Chocobo wrote: I love seeing stuff like this, attempts to make nearly-gamebreaking combinations of units in a 2v2. I love the overlord/WG concept as well... things that wouldn't occur to just anyone. Thanks for posting this instead of keeping it a secret like many players would.
I'm curious how much more gamebreaking things could get with a 3v3 combo... though I wonder if overpowered rushes actually become less worthwhile, since you're taking out only 1/3 of the opponents and 2/3 are free to counterattack you.
I can't imagine what Aristeo/Cubert are doing. I really don't think it's simply strong overall play, I don't think a 92.3% winrate happens without one or more extremely well-rehearsed gameplans. Maybe Nestea and Nada could pull it off, going heavy defense and a powerful macro game, but I doubt it.
That team is 397-33. Think about it. That's insane.
Game-breaking? I'm sorry but stuff like this is pretty much all-in and relies on a timing push. I don't really think it's even all that clever of cheese to be honest, although it's pretty solid. The best cheese I've seen this week was a Terran player in 3s who built a couple of bunkers at my Terran buddies ramp right off the start, and then canceled them as his 2 zerg allies came in with about 14 lings. Granted they still lost because they're terrible at everything but cheesing, but an interesting little strategy none-the-less.
These types of cheeses have been happening a lot more frequently these days. Every 2s, 3s, and 4s I play it seems that people simply rely on cheese to get by. It used to be mostly 4 warp gates, 3 rax, stim timing pushes, etc. I liked those. Those made sense to me because there was a follow-up if things didn't go well. Now, it's pretty much common that I see people 6 pool, or 5 rax marine rush, or zealot or stalker rush. In 2/5 of our games last night in 3s we faced against 2 zerg 1 terran teams who did double ling rush with marines, into muta. The Terran went pure marines and fed gas to the Zerg so he could build a ton of mutalisks. By the 15 minute mark the Terran still didn't have Stim for his marines and was on 1 base still. (No Stim in BOTH games) In fact of the 3, only one actually expoed and he did it to the gold base on OUR side of the map, which was completely exposed... We still barely scraped by with a win. These are people in high diamond league? Give me a break.
This is not to say that I am not above cheesing or doing an all-in. We all do it once in awhile. I especially am more likely to do it if I know the person is better than me, and to even the advantage I need to do some economic damage early to put myself in a position to win. I just dislike plans where it's one strategy, or one 5 minute game plan to only win the game. That's your one trick pony. Winning lots does not make you a better player... Being in diamond doesn't make you a good player...
On November 22 2010 02:31 Lucius2 wrote: exaclty because of builds like this, there is no point in playing 2v2 imo. every single game is all-in with the lamest unit combos ever. teching = loss, expo = loss. it doesnt even matter which units u get, aslong as u have atleast over 9000 of them.
lings (+some blings)+stalker lings(+some blings)+marauder proxy mass marines+zeals
99% of the so called "top" 2v2 players only get carried by their build/unit combo.
i gave up playing this long time ago
My team plays double random and we cheese maybe once in fifty games.
If you want to improve, it's all about stable aggression. You need enough units to merge your armies, unless you're both Terran (-->can defend alone with bunkers until tech comes out). If you merge your armies, you can tech or expand, provided you're not ridiculously greedy about it.
This is quite interesting, I think that I will try it out with my 2's Partner . For quite awhile we have been doing a 7RR build with 2 barracks' (with reactors) marines. This strategy worked quite well until we hit the 1700 diamond in 2's. We were getting 11-0 streaks, then it started to fail around 1700 diamond, and it would often times push into the late game. I think that this would probably be better, because it is stronger than our current build in the late game. Thanks for the great post!
tried it out in 30 games after reading this, 1600 diamond europe, went 26-4.
Lost against: TT: They both rushed 2 rax marine with a few scvs, we were able to hold off their push, but they got one of the overlords, supply block + only 1 base warpin sucks, since it defeats the purpose of switching pressure. TT: Both went marines only, it seemed not possible to get enough banelings fast enough after pulling off from gas. ZZ: Both went the same mass speedling build, but one didn't pull off gas and got banelings, we lost every ling when they first pushed, had no chance to get the pylons up, too much mapcontrol with 2 zergs with mass speedlings, second push with banelings was devastating. ZZ: same as above.
But it's so worth playing it, the rage you get after the games, mmmmmh sugar!
edit: also, there are more than 3 maps where this strat sucks somewhat more, so you can just vote out the 3 most annoying ones (we decided on all with shared bases except twilight fortress, since it's choke is so large, and only double T will be able to wall off in time, which they could do on any map anyways)
On November 22 2010 06:39 cannavaro wrote: tried it out in 30 games after reading this, 1600 diamond europe, went 26-4.
Lost against: TT: They both rushed 2 rax marine with a few scvs, we were able to hold off their push, but they got one of the overlords, supply block + only 1 base warpin sucks, since it defeats the purpose of switching pressure. TT: Both went marines only, it seemed not possible to get enough banelings fast enough after pulling off from gas. ZZ: Both went the same mass speedling build, but one didn't pull off gas and got banelings, we lost every ling when they first pushed, had no chance to get the pylons up, too much mapcontrol with 2 zergs with mass speedlings, second push with banelings was devastating. ZZ: same as above.
But it's so worth playing it, the rage you get after the games, mmmmmh sugar!
edit: also, there are more than 3 maps where this strat sucks somewhat more, so you can just vote out the 3 most annoying ones (we decided on all with shared bases except twilight fortress, since it's choke is so large, and only double T will be able to wall off in time, which they could do on any map anyways)
Yep TT is seriously a concern. However, against double Zerg going for mass speedling build (10 pool) you should definately switch protoss build and go double 10/12 gate.
Just had this strat used against me successfully in a 3v3, word spreads quickly! I could see what was happening, but a bit powerless to stop as was playing with randoms. I like it.
It does seem a little daft, but sc2 isn't really optimised for 2v2 / 3v3 / 4v4 imo. Everything is balanced for 1v1 and so the clever synergies like this are going to be at times a bit crazy-strong but the only counter is that you can assemble the same synergy and throw it right back at them.
A very interesting strat. At 5:15, u can crush them with lots of units. Gonna try this out . There is another PZ build that can get u 20 mutas in under 6 min, AND leaves u with a very strong economy.
On November 22 2010 08:32 TheDominator wrote: A very interesting strat. At 5:15, u can crush them with lots of units. Gonna try this out . There is another PZ build that can get u 20 mutas in under 6 min, AND leaves u with a very strong economy.
best strat ever. Works in 3's , with double toss zerg(only fro vision and harass ) my full history page is only about victories ; it takes between 6 and 8 minutes to win.
On November 22 2010 10:06 CanucksJC wrote: What if your opponent is double T
On separate bases, send 2 zealots in the mineral line and 3 zealots at the wall-in while your zerg ally attacks. The marines/marauders will be shooting at your 3 zealots while the zerglings eat away the wall. Also, your 3 zealots can get indefinately kited but it will take some time. During that time, prevent any wall in repair. The wall should break and once the glings are in, you're good to go.
However, a good terran will split his forces, and have enough to defend this probably... Most of the time, people will panick and make bad decisions. The other ennemy will maybe try to go help his buddy, and you can easily pick off his army with splings. Against a TT, this built is counterable, but they have to be really good, or somehow already played against this build and thought about how to react. I'd say, if you're anything below top 300 world ladder, you're good against any combination of races. Also, you won't find many TTs that high up the ladder anyway. People tend to chose different races because of synergies...
yo I have a question? We managed to go 2-3 with this build, and we both are gold level players. We both have no experience as either race(lol, both terran). Anyways, Photon cannon mass really messed us up. Aswell as Mass Roach against ZZ. Any Advice? Also, I dont really understand the build order. Do ever make zealots out of a Gateway, and stop probes? or do we not stop probes?
On November 22 2010 08:32 TheDominator wrote: A very interesting strat. At 5:15, u can crush them with lots of units. Gonna try this out . There is another PZ build that can get u 20 mutas in under 6 min, AND leaves u with a very strong economy.
On November 22 2010 14:21 Jayzo wrote: i dont understand "saving on in base pylons"?
With the korean all in you need a minimum of 3 pylon ortherwise your opponent will simply kill them with units before your warpgate kick in. If you dont, they can kill 2 pylon with units and 3 with like 3-4 probe pulled from minerals
On November 22 2010 14:21 Jayzo wrote: i dont understand "saving on in base pylons"?
With the korean all in you need a minimum of 3 pylon ortherwise your opponent will simply kill them with units before your warpgate kick in. If you dont, they can kill 2 pylon with units and 3 with like 3-4 probe pulled from minerals
Naw, one works fine for me and I've been winning a lot lately. Also the zergling should be defending the pylon if it gets caught. Also, they shouldn't see it in the first place.
On November 22 2010 11:27 Isaac wrote: yo I have a question? We managed to go 2-3 with this build, and we both are gold level players. We both have no experience as either race(lol, both terran). Anyways, Photon cannon mass really messed us up. As well as Mass Roach against ZZ. Any Advice? Also, I dont really understand the build order. Do ever make zealots out of a Gateway, and stop probes? or do we not stop probes?
Sorry I don't have a replay.
BO is cut all probes after 18 for protoss and all drones after 11 for zerg. You only make zealots out of warpgates, 5 by 5 the first rounds, then as much as you can afford after that.
If you're going 2-3, you're doing something wrong Do you have 24 splings at 4:40-4:50 ? Do you have 5 zealots at 5:15 ?
A sloppy execution of the BO (forget chrono boost, forget pulling workers off gaz, forget to larva inject, forget to protect the pylon, forget to send the overlords ...) means you will lose up to 20 seconds on the timing push (which won't be timed anymore...). 20 seconds is a huge time and you will lose if you are that sloppy. At higher levels, even 10 seconds late can be the difference between winning and getting stomped.
Against ZZ you won't be facing any wallin so the zerg can start to harass with the zerglings before the actual push. 7 roaches will lose to 24 speedlings. Then depending on the reaction, you decide which base you want to warp-in in.
In case of photon cannons, just attack the one who is not making them. If both are making them, they are probably noobs and you can proceed to FE and stomp them some other way. Also, they can't have cannons at the front, in their mineral lines and have units supporting. 5 zealots in mineral line will be enough to deal with the cannons.
To all those not succeeding with this strat, try to post some replays so i can tell you what you are doing wrong.
Updated the BO : Forgot to mention that you scout at 10 after the pylon with protoss. Also forgot to mention that for a smooth build as zerg, you wait until you have 100 minerals before you build the 10 extractor. That way, you should have 100 gas exactly as you are ready to research zergling speed.
2 zergs will have more lings / banelings than all this no? Also terr with bunkers helps alot, its very strong against toss tho, since toss cannot defend effectivly against both mass lings and warp in zealots. I think reapers with or without bunkers is pretty good against this, but i guess then you have to know what is comming
I should be more clear about this in the OP maybe, but the only way for ZZ to have more stuff then this at the 5:15 mark is to have gone double 10 pool. If you scout double 10 pool, you do NOT want to procede with this BO. Instead, go for the standard direct counter build to what they are doing (if you scout gas before pool, expect mass speedlings, otherwise, you can suspect roaches are coming). As you are opening 10 pool/9 gas and 10 pylon/10 gate you should be safe against pretty much anything early on.
Just won 10 in a row using this strat. Thanks guys. Its a fun build that leads to some great games.
The build is incredibly resilient. We won several games that I was sure we would lose. The ability to just keep warping in units is incredibly powerful. If they leave their base at any time to help their partner you are in the control as you can just warp in back door.
As the OP mentioned the key to countering this build is early pressure. Also if you are playing standard and scout this build your best bet is to destroy the pylon asap. This can be done with any ranged unit.
On November 22 2010 08:32 TheDominator wrote: A very interesting strat. At 5:15, u can crush them with lots of units. Gonna try this out . There is another PZ build that can get u 20 mutas in under 6 min, AND leaves u with a very strong economy.
I just tested with my friend, 6 minutes 20 muta is not possible. My build order is 10 gas > pool > lair > spire, so that I would keep myself upgrading without losing any down time on teching up. I tried 9gas 8gas > pool but that didn't work well since either the cases u don't have enough mineral/gas to tech immediately when spawn pool is up. The biggest problem that it is not possible ---> larva capped As mentioned I don't have any down time on teching, my spire would arrive abt 5:40~50, and I get my queen after my Lair, so there would only have time for 1 larva injection and not possible for 20. - If I queen before lair, that's 50sec building time so it is out of the case. - you would not have enough mineral to build another hat, and your teammate is giving u mineral after 5mins mark.
You could have a lot ~7mins, but not a 6min case. Please advice if I am wrong. Thanks.
Gotta love how the 2v2 bracket is based on people cheesing instead of playing the game properly, I fail to see why you would even pay for starcraft if this is the kind of crap that people come up with... Nice build OP, sorry for the rage.
On November 23 2010 06:30 Gfox wrote: Gotta love how the 2v2 bracket is based on people cheesing instead of playing the game properly, I fail to see why you would even pay for starcraft if this is the kind of crap that people come up with... Nice build OP, sorry for the rage.
Because people who want to play "properly" do that in 1on1. You can't say anything like that about 2on2 since the game is balanced around 1on1. What you'd consider cheese in most 1on1 situations is a viable strategy in 2on2, since you can make just about anything work in 2on2, the coordination with your team partner is far more important than "playing properly". How dare someone to try and have fun...
Back on topic:
Did some more games today, many people on that level now know what's coming if they scout properly and are able to react in time, especially on maps with tight chokes. Double protoss is still 100% win, tho. Example: vs TZ: Terran put 4 scvs on his choke, 2 in front row, 2 behind the 2 in the front. They repaired each other and he had a bunker with marines behind it, so no way to do any damage there with lings. Also quickly had marauders with conc. shells, who owned any zaelot attempt. Zerg had 2 roaches block his choke as soon as our lings got speed, and by the time we had some stalkers the terran had too many marauders to get a good surround on, and stim shortly after.
On November 22 2010 08:32 TheDominator wrote: A very interesting strat. At 5:15, u can crush them with lots of units. Gonna try this out . There is another PZ build that can get u 20 mutas in under 6 min, AND leaves u with a very strong economy.
I just tested with my friend, 6 minutes 20 muta is not possible. My build order is 10 gas > pool > lair > spire, so that I would keep myself upgrading without losing any down time on teching up. I tried 9gas 8gas > pool but that didn't work well since either the cases u don't have enough mineral/gas to tech immediately when spawn pool is up. The biggest problem that it is not possible ---> larva capped As mentioned I don't have any down time on teching, my spire would arrive abt 5:40~50, and I get my queen after my Lair, so there would only have time for 1 larva injection and not possible for 20. - If I queen before lair, that's 50sec building time so it is out of the case. - you would not have enough mineral to build another hat, and your teammate is giving u mineral after 5mins mark.
You could have a lot ~7mins, but not a 6min case. Please advice if I am wrong. Thanks.
Yea they shud really put a BO in. According to that page though, they build another hatchery, so somehow i guess they want u too do that, possibly earlier minerals given to the zerg player? If u cud somehow get another hatch down, and build a queen on the other hatchery aswell, u cud probably fit 2 spawn larvae injections on that hatchery. tbh, i have no idea how they expect u to get all that done in under 6 min, but 7 min is still freakishly fast
Cannavaro, can you post replays when you lose to TZ ? 2 roaches at top of the ramp hardly seems like a problem to me and i'd like to see how they pull that off.
Just played against this and went 14 Spawning Pool into Hatchery and beat it. Whether it was executed the best is questionable but I wouldn't say it is unbeatable. But thanks for popularizing a mediocre strategy by calling it unbeatable.
On November 23 2010 13:50 RyanS wrote: Just played against this and went 14 Spawning Pool into Hatchery and beat it. Whether it was executed the best is questionable but I wouldn't say it is unbeatable. But thanks for popularizing a mediocre strategy by calling it unbeatable.
Lol. This build, if executed properly, would shred any kind of early hatchery like you were trying. You just simply have too many resources invested in the Hatchery to match production at that early point in the game.
On November 23 2010 10:44 Onioncookie wrote: How can u call this unbeatable ??? I dont even call OUR strat unbeatable ...wich has like 74-4 in 4v4 (damn disconnects xD)
A walloff or all in pushes from ur oppents could get u trouble ... and the map is also very important , still nice though ;D
I think a lot of you aren't reading my OP very well. I am questioning (notice the "?" in the title) whether or not this build is unbeatable with certain conditions. Those conditions are : -Separate base maps -Anything but double T -Opponents going at least 13gate, 13 pool, or one racks openings. (standard macro oriented openings) I am very much aware that against any committed push before the 5 minute mark, this strat will not be effective. Those builds are easily scoutable, and this strategy's opening allows you to defend efficiently.
Some of the posters here criticize the build and theorycraft about how to beat it, but i have yet to see A SINGLE replay where my build (executed properly) loses under the above conditions. I'm not saying it isn't possible (that's why i'm asking in the title). A lot of you guys just come in here and say "lolz, banelings and you're dead" or "kill proxy pylon and its over" without even bothering to wonder whether that is possible or not.
@uTnMyLife : I sent you a PM with my email, could you send me that mTwDemuslim replay please ?
@Onioncookie : i think people are just playing 4vs4 to try out crazy strategies. I wouldn't be surprise if a team who wants to win can achieve a 70-4 score with just about any strat. Heck i play 4v4s for fun and i'm number 1 diamond going mass infestors or shit like that every game. Even yesterday i failed probe rush and lost all my and my ally's probes and still won the game...
@Ryans : clearly, the strategy was either not the one in the OP, or executed VERY poorly if it loses to 14 pool into hatchery
@Crench : In terms of number of speedlings and timing, how does your build compare with mine ?
On November 23 2010 18:29 Geiko wrote: I think a lot of you aren't reading my OP very well. I am questioning (notice the "?" in the title) whether or not this build is unbeatable with certain conditions. Those conditions are : -Separate base maps -Anything but double T -Opponents going at least 13gate, 13 pool, or one racks openings. (standard macro oriented openings) I am very much aware that against any committed push before the 5 minute mark, this strat will not be effective. Those builds are easily scoutable, and this strategy's opening allows you to defend efficiently.
Some of the posters here criticize the build and theorycraft about how to beat it, but i have yet to see A SINGLE replay where my build (executed properly) loses under the above conditions. I'm not saying it isn't possible (that's why i'm asking in the title). A lot of you guys just come in here and say "lolz, banelings and you're dead" or "kill proxy pylon and its over" without even bothering to wonder whether that is possible or not.
@uTnMyLife : I sent you a PM with my email, could you send me that mTwDemuslim replay please ?
@Onioncookie : i think people are just playing 4vs4 to try out crazy strategies. I wouldn't be surprise if a team who wants to win can achieve a 70-4 score with just about any strat. Heck i play 4v4s for fun and i'm number 1 diamond going mass infestors or shit like that every game. Even yesterday i failed probe rush and lost all my and my ally's probes and still won the game...
@Ryans : clearly, the strategy was either not the one in the OP, or executed VERY poorly if it loses to 14 pool into hatchery
@Crench : In terms of number of speedlings and timing, how does your build compare with mine ?
We are top 100 world so we get like totaly noobs (+2 - +4 with bonuspool) sometimes we even play against favoured players who have similars score like we do ... Believe me its such a high play u cant do "random" stuff or u will get steamrolled , i was suprised how much "depth" teamgames can get ... for example multiple prong attacks in 1v1 is a joke, against this cuz u have to coordinates 4x armies :D aw sometimes its so much fun ^^
But 99% of the time ur right u can get away with even only make zlings in a 30 min game
Yeah but there CANNOT be a unbeatable strat, stop using such strong words :D
On November 23 2010 18:29 Geiko wrote: I think a lot of you aren't reading my OP very well. I am questioning (notice the "?" in the title) whether or not this build is unbeatable with certain conditions. Those conditions are : -Separate base maps -Anything but double T -Opponents going at least 13gate, 13 pool, or one racks openings. (standard macro oriented openings) I am very much aware that against any committed push before the 5 minute mark, this strat will not be effective. Those builds are easily scoutable, and this strategy's opening allows you to defend efficiently.
Do you consider War Zone a separate base map? I just ran into two of your cronies (playing ZZ).
No, war zone is the worth possible map for this strategy. 1 wallable entrance, and zealots who take for hours to get to the mineral line. But send me the replay anyway if you won doing some conventional build
Updated the OP with a new replay from uTnMyLife and unhealthy. They are doing my build, up against mTwDeMusliM and ToD (professional war3 player) and showing them how it's done ! 14 Pool / 13 gate for the pro team.
yes this is easily beatable someone told me about this thread
the build looked like garbage he asked to try anyway
he picked terran instead of toss -_-'
we got ZvP quick expoed got mass speedlings ally was badly hurt by the rush but just killed the pylon counter attacked pumped slings off 2 base 2 queens killed all the workers won a bit later
told him the build was garbage and one said "you see the thread too?"
hahahahahahah we beat the #12 of the world with this in 2 evenings LOL WTF
So a little more explanation. I'm fucking up overlords and stuff and still this cheese works.
A mate and mine started playing last night. We were placed in the gold league a while back in 2v2. Now we got placed against the nr12 in the world nr5 in eu according to sc2ranks.com. Winstreak of about 25-0 once we started this. It's so imba. Still in gold league now . Our mmr must be pretty high eventhough we are still in gold league nr7 in division.
Good Job ! Are you talking about ryusaki and delusion ? Post the replay here and i'll add it to the OP The more good players we beat (DeMusliM etc...) the more people will start to realize how strong this is.
On November 24 2010 07:04 Geiko wrote: Good Job ! Are you talking about ryusaki and delusion ? Post the replay here and i'll add it to the OP The more good players we beat (DeMusliM etc...) the more people will start to realize how strong this is.
Yes thats them. And as I said, messed up a lot of stuff bigtime, didnt even micro well.. Don't even know if I did that build well. Let me send you the rep.
We finally got beat once by 2 random 2v2 players (ranked high though) and we were attacking one of them, who had up 3 spines, so we decided to go to P but that lost us the game I think. Since we didnt have a pylon and ovie there. There goes our 30 winstreak or something like that.
Couldn't you essentially try a similar thing as TP with the Terran Player building a proxy rax, and float it into the base to bypass the wall off and provide sight for the Pylon?
I think that quick mutas build mentioned would do well against it.
I seem to remember there being an actual build order when that page was posted, but I could be mistaken. Anyway, resource sharing is the key to that quick mass mutas build. With the fast expansion, key resource injections from your protoss ally, it won't necessarily matter that your collective defense is lacking or the protoss player is completely vulnerable... may even work in your favor. Popping 10+ mutas a minute after the speedlings are done (I'm assuming the attack begins at 5:00 on the nose) would shred your army uncontested. Obviously, since this is theory the tossup is how much damage you've already done and how quickly the mutalisks can even dispatch of the pressure.
The only reason I'd suggest that build as the antithesis to yours is because it actually has a decent usage outside of specifically countering your build. I don't have any replays to back this up, and since I'm at work I can't watch yours (and when I get home I want to play, so I probably won't have the time to watch them later, either : ( ).
I guess what I'd want to know is, how long does it typically take to break through a defense? Do you scout out what the players are doing with your zealots? What if you were baited into destroying the player that seems easier to destroy exactly as planned and then get stomped when the air counter comes out?
I wonder if it's possible for a Terran team (which you already admit COULD potentially be a problem for the build) to use the same resource-sharing abuse to get banshees around that mark?
I only play Zerg and mostly 1's, so I can't answer these questions, just felt they were worth asking. : )
On November 24 2010 07:29 Conrose wrote: Couldn't you essentially try a similar thing as TP with the Terran Player building a proxy rax, and float it into the base to bypass the wall off and provide sight for the Pylon?
Maybe with a mass marine timing push this could work to some extent ? I encourage you to try it out and tell us if you managed to pull it off consistently. However i doubt anything effective is going to come out of wasting a barracks and an scv just for the high ground vision... In my opinion, a scan is the better way to go. Scan at 5:15 to warp in zealots ?
Btw, updated the OP with a new replay against top 12 World, top 5 EU players. If anyone else has replays of them winning against top players, send them to me so i can add to the OP !
Me and my buddy just did this right out of placement matches. I can first hand say that this BO is an omg deal. We went 9 wins in a row before finding an ok counter to this, i admit i could've done better on the macro/micro and probably won, but an early 5RR/7RR + marauders or fast zealots ganged up on one person really screws this up. Overall, amazing build.
My 2v2 Partner and I are a TZ team (roughly 1500 points 2v2) and we have managed to figure out how to block this build on certain maps.
Suppose the map is Tarsonis Assault. Basically, I (Terran) will wall off the entire length of the shared choke while my partner (Zerg) will make speedlings and camp both of the warp-in locations. The idea is that the PZ zerg's speedlings can't get by my wall to support his ally, while the PZ Protoss can't safely warp in without being eaten by lings as they warp in.
Granted, this is really only possible on maps where it is possible to wall off a shared choke (Scorched Haven, Tarsonis Assault come to mind)
Replay:
Although we didn't execute very well (lings not attacking nearby warping zealots and tons of scv lost stupidly), I think this shows our counter pretty well.
Interesting defense strategy, however i am questionning whether the construction of all those buildings doesn't put you back to far in term of units ? The build is actually pretty well executed from them, but for some reason, they don't warp in zealots at the 5:15 mark and wait for 5:40 or something which is a huge time ! They actually have the warpgate up at 5:12 = zealots in the zerg's base at 5:18. At that time, your spines aren't up and you have nothing to defend against 5 zealots ! This build is really all about the timing it hits. I would however be interested to see how your defense works out if the protoss manages to warp in at a correct timing. But other than that, yes common choke maps are a pain. PT can wall in together and not be that far behind army wise.
By the way, the correct proxy placement on tarsonis is over the cliff on top left or bottom right. That way they don't even see the proxy without air vision
Edit : Also, i would say even if their attack didn't kill you guys, it still worked pretty well : 17 dornes and 26 probes vs 9 scvs and 13 drones at 9 minutes ! So i'm not sure you can say you really countered the build
In our defense, it was our first attempt at trying to block this strategy, and I was trying to explain to my partner over skype what my idea was. Unfortunately, I forgot to tell him to camp zerglings at where the zealots are supposed to warp in. At the 5:15 mark we have 16 zerglings, which means 8 zerglings per spawn point. I haven't done any testing on this, but I think 8 zerglings can kill 2-3 zealots as they warp in (since they take increased damage as they warp in).
Also, at 6:35 or so I just lose a ton of scvs for no reason, which could have been avoided easily
I have a question though, my friend and I play as TP and I'm curious if you can think of any way to modify this strategy to fit that makeup or if any one else has any ideas.
On November 26 2010 05:06 Khadgars wrote: Great build, thanks for posting this!
I have a question though, my friend and I play as TP and I'm curious if you can think of any way to modify this strategy to fit that makeup or if any one else has any ideas.
Thanks!
The problem is that as a TP team, you won't be able to have as much map control versus a team that has a Z
Interesting. I think a good scout could counter this build, but of course you said that if needs be you'll transition into a normal game. I'm impressed.
Yeah, TP is possible but i think not as effective. I suppose 2 racks into 4 racks openings could work to some extent . You'd also have to waste a scan as i said for high ground vision => less minerals and also no mobilty (you can only do it once at one base. Much more of a gamble and i'm not sure it would be effective at very high level. But yeah a key point is map controll in the begining and i fear that against 13 pool, you'd have trouble protecting the proxy probe...
@noobster : 8 zerglings can definitely NOT kill 5 zealots warping in (far from it also). Once they are warped in, you eather have to pull the other 8 back in order to defend (leaving the other base with nothing) or ask your terran ally to help out (leaving the center wall defendless). I'm not saying it can't be done, but i'd really like to see your defense plan when the warp in time are correct.
honestly guys this is an incredibly strong build, stop being fags and saying there are counters (what doesnt?) my partner and i were plat rank2 and after about 20 wins using only this became diamond r4. Just because someone is diamond doesnt mean they can make 7 marawders out of 1 rax at once
Our more intense matches were when the opponents were rushing as well. Not from scouting - a pregame plan from them meaning they had more units at their base. With warpgates and speedlings there is no defenders advantage and with both of us constantly reinforcing we rammed our e-penis own the throat of our opponents. Geiko this build is awesome, im wondering of there are similar synergies with different unit compositions?
I'm still confused, what happens if the other teams doesn't have a zerg and simply walls off their entrance or they have a shared entrance they can wall off?
It might be strong, but most rushes are, especially vs zerg.
Btw all your replays show games vs zerg enemies, except one where the protoss fails to keep the zerglings out (fail!)
So, I randomly stumbled upon this thread earlier this night and I thought to myself, yeah, nah, this isnt hard to stop at all, especially since my ally and I are quite good at detecting and stopping cheeses, as well as having a really solid team play. Boy were we in for a treat.
We had about 160-20 before going into a random ladder fight (we're a PZ team, usually favouring macro style play. We don't usually cheese on the ladder, but mix it up every now and then in tournaments and stuff).
In this particular game, we were favoured, as usual (what's up with high diamond being matched against everything, including random bronze teams at night? ), and were up against a PZ team. Scouted really early gas/pool/gateway and prepared like usual against an aggressive opener. Nothing happened for a little while, as I lost my scout, and then suddenly, after seeing toss pulling probes off gas, and 5 gateways, we were bamboozled to hell. Tried to pull off a fast dark, but that was definately not a good idea.
Well okay, we went over and looked at the BO, and realized, aha, this is the one from the thread I saw earlier tonight. Cool! Alright, let's go another game. And sure enough, we got our rematch. They did the same thing again, I went 5 gate as well, my zerg ally a bit more defensive, but again, got ran over. These guys didn't have proper micro. They didn't have a high rank / good stats. I don't think these guys were particularly good at all. So, after losing like 40-50 points, we entered a third match against these guys, and decided to defend like maniacs (we don't want to mirror the build, we want a safe way to defend against it, and still stay ahead eco-wise), but yet again, we got squashed. I even built a proxy pylon in my ally's base, to warp in if necessary there, but yeah, wasn't enough, even if I had 5 warpgates and a wall closed by a zealot (or two). Cause as soon as I warped in units at my ally's, there were zealots in my mineral line.
After a couple of other opponents, we met them a fourth time (now being teams even), on "high orbit". I tried to mix in a forge into the build, as we scouted the same build yet again, and forced the toss to continue gas production, going mass stalkers. We closed our main entrance with 2-3 cannons, and put up another 2-3 behind the rocks (as we assumed they had to do an all-in push through there). Sure enough, they took down the rocks, got trapped by some force fields (stalker, roach, lings), and had to fall back. We secured two expansions on the right side of the map, went muta/ling/blink stalkers, and eventually won due to better eco/tech.
So, here's kind of my conclusion. On certain maps (read: shared bases), it's definately going to be hard to pull this BO off as closing the entrance leaves the zerg unable to do anything until roaches are up, but then again, it's hard for the defenders to get proper scouting, and the aggressive players may even double expand fairly safe and catch up again without attacking. I am still clueless as how to counter this on maps where you are separated, like tarsonis assault, where you don't even need overlord scouting to warp in units. I do want to pull it off with 12 gate as a toss, where my ally zerg goes 14-gas, 14-pool. Hopefully, someone takes the time to investigate a bit more, cause I really don't want to be losing 3 out of 4 games against this build, regardless of how good the players are Don't underestimate this build guys! I don't doubt that good counteres will be found, but at the moment I don't think it's unreasonable to call it "OP", as it simplifies the game tremendously for the attacking part. I remember 8rax-7pool before the big patch being incredibly hard to stop, but it was possible :D Peace.
PS: Anyone wanna practice this build and try to find solid counters, give me a notice
I faced this on the ladder today. sure kicked my ass. My and my buddy were better than our opponents in 1v1 easily, but this build is so easy to pull off that they crushed us.
On November 22 2010 13:29 Impervious wrote: I feel so dirty for trying it in a CSL match.
BUT IT WORKED!!!!!
You ass! My friend had this done against him in a csl match. You dont go to UOttawa do you? If you do then at least karma made your team lose overall. 1v1>>>2v2
On November 26 2010 11:39 macrolisk wrote: honestly guys this is an incredibly strong build, stop being fags and saying there are counters (what doesnt?) my partner and i were plat rank2 and after about 20 wins using only this became diamond r4. Just because someone is diamond doesnt mean they can make 7 marawders out of 1 rax at once
Our more intense matches were when the opponents were rushing as well. Not from scouting - a pregame plan from them meaning they had more units at their base. With warpgates and speedlings there is no defenders advantage and with both of us constantly reinforcing we rammed our e-penis own the throat of our opponents. Geiko this build is awesome, im wondering of there are similar synergies with different unit compositions?
to hell with the complainers
You need to chill. It is in no way unbeatable and people are voicing their opinions, which is what a forum is for. Its a good strat, but like every other strat it can be countered. Get off the high horse.
I'm quite still an horrible player, and my teammate is even much worse than me, still we are laddering with a huge winning streak with this build. From my experience I can say it's almost impossible to lose when your opponents are on two separate bases: they just can't wall in from the zerglings and so zealots are almost unstoppable in their first attack against a player who's alone. On the other hand, the other can't defend without getting stomped in the mineral line short after.
There are some maps were the bases aren't shared, where it's still possible to defend decently however, by making a wall which can cover both players. In these cases I've found that teching to blings, even if slower, is enough to make the lings get in and get the kill.
The only real trouble is the shared base, when both opponents smell the rush or are going with a rush on their own, and so they have appropriate defence, but otherwise, even with our poor skills, this is BO is indeed, even if not unbeatable, incredibly strong.
On November 25 2010 11:04 nubster wrote: My 2v2 Partner and I are a TZ team (roughly 1500 points 2v2) and we have managed to figure out how to block this build on certain maps.
Suppose the map is Tarsonis Assault. Basically, I (Terran) will wall off the entire length of the shared choke while my partner (Zerg) will make speedlings and camp both of the warp-in locations. The idea is that the PZ zerg's speedlings can't get by my wall to support his ally, while the PZ Protoss can't safely warp in without being eaten by lings as they warp in.
Granted, this is really only possible on maps where it is possible to wall off a shared choke (Scorched Haven, Tarsonis Assault come to mind)
Replay:
Although we didn't execute very well (lings not attacking nearby warping zealots and tons of scv lost stupidly), I think this shows our counter pretty well.
im pretty sure we played you several times that day, right? (me/danbox and kensai)
unfortunately we're actually pretty bad players imo i havent really worked out what to transition to should my lings be blocked like that, and my partner committed to that attack way too much. the killing of the scvs was good, but he wanted to press the wall and thats when we lost it completely. if we both had 1v1 diamond lvl macro it mightve turned into an even game (as the guy above who watched the replay said, we were ahead in workers), but i think you guys had it easily just by having the massive wall- which wasnt scouted because we were getting lazy with the inflated win-rate this strat comes with D:
i would also like to point out that there were several games where banelings did a very large amount of damage... although you could probably put that down to horrible micro of lings on my part. something to consider though, as there were some close games where we took out one player, but the other went banelings and almost held off the push single handedly. again upper level micro 2v1 its probably not an issue, but something to consider if you're still looking for other defenses to this build
On November 26 2010 11:39 macrolisk wrote: honestly guys this is an incredibly strong build, stop being fags and saying there are counters (what doesnt?) my partner and i were plat rank2 and after about 20 wins using only this became diamond r4. Just because someone is diamond doesnt mean they can make 7 marawders out of 1 rax at once
Our more intense matches were when the opponents were rushing as well. Not from scouting - a pregame plan from them meaning they had more units at their base. With warpgates and speedlings there is no defenders advantage and with both of us constantly reinforcing we rammed our e-penis own the throat of our opponents. Geiko this build is awesome, im wondering of there are similar synergies with different unit compositions?
to hell with the complainers
You need to chill. It is in no way unbeatable and people are voicing their opinions, which is what a forum is for. Its a good strat, but like every other strat it can be countered. Get off the high horse.
Again, i think no one is saying this strat is unbeatable, (i just put the word in the title because it's a pretty good eye catcher :p), but seriously, i am really wondering what a good counter for it would be, and still haven't found one yet (even after more than 30 000 views of this page). I'm going to quote myself :
I think a lot of you aren't reading my OP very well. I am questioning (notice the "?" in the title) whether or not this build is unbeatable with certain conditions. Those conditions are : -Separate base maps -Anything but double T -Opponents going at least 13gate, 13 pool, or one racks openings. (standard macro oriented openings) I am very much aware that against any committed push before the 5 minute mark, this strat will not be effective. Those builds are easily scoutable, and this strategy's opening allows you to defend efficiently.
So seriously people, send me replays of you losing with this strat under these conditions, or winning against this strat. In all the replays i've seen losing, the strat is very poorly executed with sloppy timings, bad early ling control and poor decision making. Even in some of the winning replays this is the case ! But that is understandable, it really takes some time to perfect the build. If anyone thinks they've found a counter, me and my partner will be happy to try it out with them with a decent execution of it (add me geiko.813). Of course, don't post "counters" to this strat that imply like making 5 cannons in your mineral line because any decent player will just fast expand instead of pushing and be miles ahead of you in the late game.
On November 26 2010 11:56 Yilar wrote: I'm still confused, what happens if the other teams doesn't have a zerg and simply walls off their entrance or they have a shared entrance they can wall off?
It might be strong, but most rushes are, especially vs zerg.
Btw all your replays show games vs zerg enemies, except one where the protoss fails to keep the zerglings out (fail!)
I forgot to address this sorry. Actually, teams with protoss are the easiest to deal with. The replay with Ore and Dreiven shows this. Sure Ore miss clicked a FF, but did we really the lings in her base to win ? Imagine you are protoss, and you are facing a korean 4WG rush. pretty hard to defend right ? You have to pull probes to kill the pylons, save chrono boost to get fast zealots and stalkers out etc... Its not that easy. Now imagine a 4WG korea where you can't kill the proxy pylon. Even harder right ? Now what about if instead of 4 zealots warping, you have 5 ! and whats more, you have one less zealot to fight that has to block the ramp. Its virtually impossible to defend alone. This is the power of this build. Even if you somehow manage to macro out enough army to be even with my 5 WG constant warp in, you still have 24 lings knocking at your door and eating away your gateway/pylon... Your terran buddy can't get out of his base to help or he will get surrounded by glings. (MM without stim or medvacs are useless in the open).
@crench : The idea behind the zerg BO was that 11 drones is exactly enough to keep pumping only zerglings and overlords. I would have to test how 10 drones work out, but i fear that at some point you might be lacking minerals to use up all your larva (assuming good spawn larva timings). However maybe cutting a drone for a faster queen can give you a significant edge in the early part of the rush. let me know how it goes
To be honest we haven't lost more than a few times vs this push as a zt-team. Z has to go lings, t rines into marauders and make sure you kill the overlords/pylons in time. Or if you can't manage that make sure you know where they'll spawn so you can kill them there. That's basicly the only thing you have to do. Keep in mind tho every time you play vs pz in 2v2, your ally needs to go lings fast and scout for proxypylons or other proxyshit. Because you won't meet much pz teams in the higher ranks who play straight up...
edit: as i don't save any 2v2 replays, i don't think i have any at the moment tho. But we won vs that honor & zephy guy like a week ago. So I suppose they knew how to execute this build properly. As you don't seem to believe that this actually can be countered :p.
Hey just wanted to say thanks very much for this build! my friend and I are new to SC and have only been playing like 3 weeks but we just won 10 and lost 3 using this build having never tried it before, my team mate is only getting around 14 zerglings out by the time i'm warping in but it's still usually more than enough.
Won't this fail agains toss who simcity his main with cannons and rushes VRs or DTs? Zerg can simcity with spines and try 1base muta, terran can bunker and rush banshee. I don't think you will be able to break this. In beta I used to simcity a lot in team games and the only problem was banelings that blow out everything. Also why 5WG if you can't support it, why not 4WG like koreans do?
On November 26 2010 23:29 NETRAT wrote: Won't this fail agains toss who simcity his main with cannons and rushes VRs or DTs? Zerg can simcity with spines and try 1base muta, terran can bunker and rush banshee. I don't think you will be able to break this. In beta I used to simcity a lot in team games and the only problem was banelings that blow out everything. Also why 5WG if you can't support it, why not 4WG like koreans do?
wasn't the 4WG before the patch? so now there's an added building time to zealots so I'm pretty sure you can support 5 now.
Also Geiko, me and my partner won against a seperate base double T game. they weren't that great but we still wiped the floor with them. pm me if u want me to find the replay.
other thing, after going on a 20 win streak with this >.<, we encountered one thing that really set us off and eventually lost us the game. It was a double toss game and both of them sim-citied with stalkers. Don't know if this is common or not, first time i've seen it, but it gave us hell when using this build.
@Goose : Replay or it didn't happen. Seriously though, i beleive that it's beatable but i need to see a replay ! Plus, i've spoken with honor and zephy and i know for a fact that they havn't been practising the build nor intend to do so too much, so maybe they were just trying it out for fun, and i doubt they can get it down perfectly the irst time they use it. Also, how do you kill pylons and overlords with late zerglings and marauders ? The terran can kill hi proxy pylon, maybe, but the one in zerg's base ? As for overlords... :p
@Netrat : As i said I don't think i can lose a game to anyone who builds more three cannons in his base before 5 minutes. I won't be doing the build for sure though if I scout this ! Also, you can't support 5 WG, but that doesn't matter because you can support 2 rounds of 5 zealots which is enough to win you the game Like i've said previsouly, the money you save on in base pylons is what pays for the 5th gate and the extra zealots.
@Musketeer : I know this strat works, I'm more interested in replays of this strat losing when executed correctly. Although i do like replay of you guys winning against famous players with it :D Show me the replay of you losing and i'll tell you what you did wrong. And if you did nothing wrong, i'll be happy to have found a counter.
On November 27 2010 00:44 Geiko wrote: @Goose : Replay or it didn't happen. Seriously though, i beleive that it's beatable but i need to see a replay ! Plus, i've spoken with honor and zephy and i know for a fact that they havn't been practising the build nor intend to do so too much, so maybe they were just trying it out for fun, and i doubt they can get it down perfectly the irst time they use it. Also, how do you kill pylons and overlords with late zerglings and marauders ? The terran can kill hi proxy pylon, maybe, but the one in zerg's base ? As for overlords... :p
I played vs them when they did the normal zeal push and when they did a dt variant. Anyway I never said I went straight marauders, I go marines into marauders and my ally always 10 pools vs pz... So it's not that hard to kill a pylon/overlord then. Unless the other z can kill a marine/ling army with lings only...
Me and my partner tried it. This strat is very strong, but it has a weak point. When your oppenents built fast units like 7rr + MM mix and they share startingpositions - its a pain in the ass. 2vs1 is in most cases a gg. Problem is, if you play mirror strat xD. You have to do a LOT of scouting and you need luck :D But still, it works quite well
On November 27 2010 00:44 Geiko wrote: @Goose : Replay or it didn't happen. Seriously though, i beleive that it's beatable but i need to see a replay ! Plus, i've spoken with honor and zephy and i know for a fact that they havn't been practising the build nor intend to do so too much, so maybe they were just trying it out for fun, and i doubt they can get it down perfectly the irst time they use it. Also, how do you kill pylons and overlords with late zerglings and marauders ? The terran can kill hi proxy pylon, maybe, but the one in zerg's base ? As for overlords... :p
I played vs them when they did the normal zeal push and when they did a dt variant. Anyway I never said I went straight marauders, I go marines into marauders and my ally always 10 pools vs pz... So it's not that hard to kill a pylon/overlord then. Unless the other z can kill a marine/ling army with lings only...
Yeah, but if you read my OP, and all the comments i've made, it says this strat works only vs >12 pool or >12 gate. If we scout 10 pool, we just do a normal build. So beating my strat with early units is nothing special.
@forenlord : Yeah but early 7RR are usually 10 pool so as above, you know not to do the build ?
I did a few tests: It turns out that on tarsonis assault, if you put the pylon on the high ground like you suggested, 8 zerglings can physically block the entire area where the zealots can warp in (on that side at least)
Also, I've figured out how to construct the wall so that it takes one less bunker overall, so I can put that bunker next to my command center if need be. I actually don't need very many marines to cover the wall at all - I just need to be ready to repair with a handful of scvs if need be.
I wish you guys were on the NA server so we could practice a lot of this
Tried this loosely tonight (not the exact build, just the general idea) and went 10-2. Losses were
1) First game, didn't have the timings at all right so executed it badly. 2) Banshees
Here's a replay of the banshee loss, better zealot micro and warping in stalkers faster in the top right base probably would have won this (lesson for next time).
Wow, didn't realize banshees came out that quick. However lets face it if you'd have had those 5 zealots at 5:15 (and not 3 at 5:15 and waiting for the last two 20 seconds later) you would have killed those techlabs before any banshees Also, don't really get what the zerg is doing... He has like 18 zerglings ready to push with you instead of 24, and when he has a chance to use them and kill the terran army in the open, he prefers to continue attacking supply depots and basicaly loses all his zergling to 1 marauder and 3 marines ? The game also lasts 5 minutes more, in that time he builds something like 10 zerglings, and at the final terran push, when he has 10 larva, he builds ... 10 drones :D (also, whats up with leaving drones in gas and not getting anything costing gas ?) Your zealot micro was fine, and pretty good decision making as well, you did some decent damage. Overall, 1v2 i think you were pretty good i just think you guys need to work on the zerg BO. If you don't want to use mine its fine but i think we can all agree that yours needs some fine tuning !
Yeah as I said it was only loosely following really especially the zerg as he is only a rusty mid-high platinum (real life friend). I just told him the rough idea and to see what happened. He hasn't seen your replays/'official' build order yet as it was just an off the cuff session this evening.
The real beauty I think of this strategy at the moment is that almost every time I warp in some zealots in the first base, both entire enemy armies are sent there immediately leaving the second base open for 1 or 2 lone zealots to be warped into the mineral line. This may change with time as this build becomes a 'standard' that people check for and respond more correctly.
Just keeping the opponents armies moving between each base while preventing most of the mining wears most people out after 2-3 minutes even if I'm losing lots of zealots ineffeciently because they aren't all in one base.
I've been using a strategy similar to this for quite a while. Me and my 2's partner went 14-4 with this specific build. We lost 3 in a row learning and testing out the build. One of them I dropped out of the game unfortunately. This build is very strong but it is not unbeatable. The strongest aspect about this build is that it puts you in control and forces your opponent to react to you. This element alone is key to its strength. The element of suprise is also very rewarding as it usually leads to people rage quitting or calling it cheese lol. "omfg, you will never get better cheesing.. blah blah blah" (responses like this are worth doing this build hahaha)
Honestly, this build also sets you up for a good midgame if you prepare yourself that far. It has definitely become my standard opening with an easy transition into roach/hydra + stalkers/ht/sentry or dt if you wanna still be sneaky =]
@Sinani201 : Check your timings. First to ask yourself is whether or not you have 5 zealots at 5:15 and 24 speedlings at 4:40. If you don't, practise until you do If you are still losing then, send me the replay
On November 27 2010 15:33 Sinani201 wrote: I just tried this strat with my friend. I attacked them and then got destroyed by about 10 roaches. We lost. Did I do something wrong?
Me and my 2v2 partner are pretty low-level players (gold, both) but have recently been kicking some major ass with this build!
Our timings are often several seconds off, and we lose occasionally due to this. We are not very skilled at scouting, and even if we see early aggression we don't know much about what to do and we we sometimes loose because of this. We don't really mind this at this point. As we don't want to enter top diamond just because of one strategy :b that would just be a hard way down once people learn to counter.
The problem right now is the transition. We pretty much always kills one enemy. But we're being matched with people so much beyond our skill level that a 2v1 scenario is often pretty scary as well.
What is a good transition for both Zerg and protoss after this? We have tried Stalker/Baneling, but not having much success.
Nothing special to be honest just another strong early push abusing race combo mechanics, seems to be the norm of 2v2 ladder. I usually play vs nothing but quick pushes like this and resource sharing strats, basically whoever is better at abusing he game wins.
On November 28 2010 08:09 uSnAmplified wrote: Nothing special to be honest just another strong early push abusing race combo mechanics, seems to be the norm of 2v2 ladder. I usually play vs nothing but quick pushes like this and resource sharing strats, basically whoever is better at abusing he game wins.
It is a powerful push but if you see it coming through scouting you can prepare accordingly. It's actually not hard to stop this from happening if you use overlords or workers to scout out the obvious proxy pylon positions. Every player that calls this strategy OP needs to evolve and learn how to counter it.
Trust me, this strategy is not a break in balance, its just the perfect counter to the standard build that people usually go for to give themselves a powerful midgame. Teams that plan on having early aggression have a good chance at shutting this strategy down, especially if they take out a overlord or pylon and supply lock the opponent. Never forget that every game is split into three different phases. Early game (which this proxy rush focuses on), mid game (where most standard builds focus on), and late game.
On November 28 2010 08:09 uSnAmplified wrote: Nothing special to be honest just another strong early push abusing race combo mechanics, seems to be the norm of 2v2 ladder. I usually play vs nothing but quick pushes like this and resource sharing strats, basically whoever is better at abusing he game wins.
It is a powerful push but if you see it coming through scouting you can prepare accordingly. It's actually not hard to stop this from happening if you use overlords or workers to scout out the obvious proxy pylon positions. Every player that calls this strategy OP needs to evolve and learn how to counter it.
Trust me, this strategy is not a break in balance, its just the perfect counter to the standard build that people usually go for to give themselves a powerful midgame. Teams that plan on having early aggression have a good chance at shutting this strategy down, especially if they take out a overlord or pylon and supply lock the opponent. Never forget that every game is split into three different phases. Early game (which this proxy rush focuses on), mid game (where most standard builds focus on), and late game.
I never said it was OP or that i couldn't stop it, don't know why you felt you needed to write such a long response to me saying it was just another quick push. And about breaking the balance, i didn't know team games were considered balanced in the first place.
as T or P, if u place ur buildings inside ur high area which would give sight to the most likely proxy pylon positions, u can simply shoot them down fast.
I almost lost today vs this strategy. thank go they didn't execute it perfectly (hit about a minute late) or transition well (kept making lots and a few stalkers later and just speedlings). after they only killed one of us, my partner was able to take them out
We have now played around with idea a bit more and we have a returning problem.
Roaches! They can kite the Zealots. If the Zerg player(s) can either keep my Zerglings away, or keep their numbers down I can't lock the roaches down for my partner.
Any suggestions on what we can do?
Example:
We also have this match. I believe we executed the build correctly, and our opponents both had timings later than 12 but we still "managed to lose". What went wrong? Here is the replay:
My 2v2 partner and I have been doing this too somewhat. He has changed his build a bit from what was stated on front page, but I can't specifically say what he has been doing. I had changed mine up a bit and it still works pretty well, we've won a majority of our games while doing this, and have even gotten this to work well in 3v3s with another friend.. First of all, I'll do 10 extractor 9 ol, and go to 12 pool, and get an evolution chamber sometime in the mix, i'll stop at 200 gas so i can get an attack upgrade as well as speed. Only problem is we've been getting my lings out at abit later then 4:40, it is a loss of time but the attack upgrade i think makes up for it.
Oh and for our 3v3 thing, the other guy is a terran and he does a banshee harass on the one base, while me and the protoss go attack another.
Why is everyone complaining "it isn't unbeatable"? Its obvious that there is absolutely no strategy that will ever be unbeatable. Think about the word unbeatable this way: This strategy will get u the best win ratio, and that win ratio cannot be beaten by any other strategy. I'm not sure whether the statement above is true, but this is a good strat, and ppl have to admit it. I have never seen a single 2v2 strat that wins with these freakishly high ratios be4.
Damn you lol.... now every team on-line doing this in 2v2. Not even fun anymore. It's almost impossible to counter... I mean it "can" be beat, but you gotta have the right races and know 100% positive that its coming. Even then, they take complete map control from you.
@Vaped : The 2v2 meta-game seems to be shifting towards long macro games as good players learn to fend off early pushes/ cheeses. If this strat forces early production buildings, it can be game changing (and not balance breaking of course)
@WXYZ : just had time to look at the second replay, i'll be looking into the first as well. From what i've seen, you seem to have gotten the build down pretty well. However, it wasn't perfect, 10 seconds late is a lot of time. However in my opinion your problems seem to be micro/strategic related. You choose to send your 5 zealots to chase down 2 stalkers while you could have sent 1 zealot for every stalker and the rest hitting the mineral line. Obviously stalkers/roaches can kite zealots for ever so you're not going to win i f you try to take out the army. On the zerg side, you really need to work on that baneling vs speedling micro :D. If you can't kill them, at least try to go around them to hit the workers. But before that, you have to pressure the zerg with your early speedlings (at a point in time, you have 20 zerglings and he has 6 or 8). Finally, you really need to veto out that map as it is horrible for this strat :p Zealots take forever to reach the workers...
Been trying out this strategy recently, and it really works O_O then again, our opponents usually don't respond correctly (if there is a correct response yet). We actually came across another team that did this exact build, but around 30 seconds slower. Teehee. Felt a little dirty doing this build though.
I'm a mid 800's diamond zerg, and one of my 2v2 partners is a mid 300's silver protoss.
On our first night of attempts at this build (and I say attempts because there were a lot of times he messed up his gate timings, and once where I forgot to overlord on 10 like a scrub) we went 8 and 1. The one we lost was where the protoss rushed DT's (he got out 1) then killed my ally's nexus (yes, with 1 DT). This is easily solved by a forge as soon as you see a Dark Shrine, followed by 1 cannon in your mineral line, and maybe a second at your gateways. We had totally gutted his base and killed every single probe by the time his 1 DT was out.
So aside from the one ridiculously dumb loss, and despite an afternoon of butchering the build from both sides, we did quite well.
On December 01 2010 18:58 Geiko wrote: Wow, very nice insight, thanks a lot for those answers. It's true reaperling is less common nowadays, but still can hurt quite a lot if it catches you offguard. I posted a 2v2 strategy some time ago, what would you say is the proper response ? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=170655
If I don't scout at 9 (which I do anyways) I am done. Otherwise, the 10 gate is a telltale sign of rush, and once I don't see the 2nd chrono it cements it. At this point, if we do not have a shared ramp (it's easy to block on shared ramp), then I go 3 gate, no chrono on warpgate, just chronoing my units. Complete wall off on my part. I will have enough units to stop a 5 warpgate by killing the first wave, and getting a gradual advantage until I have enough stalkers that it doesn't matter.
Similarly, terran ally fully walls off, and goes 4 barracks, putting tech lab on 4th barracks, making pure marine until then. We will get to the point where we can stop any warp in zealots of yours, and then kill the overlord which is giving vision (or at least forcing to screw off!). Actually against this earlier when I was around 2300 (now 2407), and we were a PP team.
Once we defeat the initial warp in, we do not push. We gather units - and I get 2nd gas for sentry, and then we expand, taking care to watch out for more overlord pylon shenanigans. I dislike pushing after defense unless you do not stop warping in zealots, and I kill multiple waves, in which case I will push.
It's not really anything different than an unkilled pylon on Tarsonis Assault - which is imo the most dangerous map to play against this on, due to the ridiculously wide ramp, which you can dps very well against (as zerg).
So, in summary, full wall in so that whoever you attack, it is really a 1v1, with the zerglings being a nonissue.
Protoss should not die to 5 warpgate rush. Terran should not die to 5 warpgate rush.
And if your warpgate rush doesn't work, we're slightly up, though not won yet! Of course lots of various things can happen, and your build isn't bad by any means. Note that on Tempest, since there are 3 possible places for you to spawn, we actually do a double early scout so we can find you in time to prepare against any such rushes.
edit - working on the "average" maps now while watching GSL. Also noticed I left out Tempest in the map analysis.
Wow, thanks a lot, you're actually the first to give a detailed solution that seems to work ! I will have to try this. I wonder what would happen though if protoss didn't engage your army with the initial 5 zealots but instead ran around the base harassing probes etc... while the zerg bites off the wall in. When the second wave of 5 zealots comes, its 10 zealots (maybe 9 if you killed one) vs your army, and the wall in is almost broken. I'll see, enough derailing of this thread :D Once again thanks for the quality posts, it's nice to read someone who knows what he is doing
As for getting the wall broken down, that can be tricky, although I wonder if it's doable to defend the wall for a short period of time with a stalker while possessing enough units to hold your 5 gate, and basically stalling for time until my ally has a critical mass of marines and can just kill off all the lings with good micro. Might need to test this in a custom game ><. My ally in RT oftentimes botches the defense of this on his side, by not being prepared for even the zealots.
this could actually be nerfed by blizzard without affecting 1v1. simply make warping in units not possible unless the protoss player can independently see up the cliff, without the overlord. (i dont think this would take too much programming because in the replay it stores who can see what etc, although, perhaps it doesnt check individual players? only a team? i imagine it would do though)
that is, if people indeed think it is horrendously broken, i'm not fully convinced,
No matter what any of these people are saying, this build freaking dominates. We're playing up in the diamond league and we're only gold. This build took us from 9 wins 11 losses up to 58 wins 14 losses. The losses were a TT build, and once to a double 6-pool. (although we normally block the double 6-pool) But with all of that being said, this build actually works for quick rankings, but don't expect it to increase skill.
does anybody know a proper counter to this? I don't want to be lame and use this build but I also encounter this build very often. I lose to it every time T.T
-Blizzard for patch 1.1.2. Our build was already overpowered at release. But without the possibility of repearling, its just much more comfortable. Keep on balancing 2v2 blizzard !
Rexyrex the key is "scouting" and having a ally that isn't braindead, there are also a few situations... such as spotting it.. if you see the toss has tons of chronoboost saved and he has a zerg ally you can predict hes likely to do it,
1) Scout for the pylon thats going to be warping in / overlord... if you dont have ranged units you could have a problem
2) Correct units.. banelings to deal with the lings and marines to deal with the zealots ..
3) A NON-retarded partner.. aka someone who will tank the zealots.. you have to MAKE SURE THAT... the lings dont get in while your taking care of the zealots..
4) On maps without a shared base it can be very difficult.. because its such a powerful earlygame preassure.. the ally who isn't getting raped really has to play well and keep his eco up and tech.
5) if you have a toss partner that is playing 100% standard you this preassure can really screw you up due to toss having less units at the start it feels like. 5) If you are against any PZ i always just use my overlords as defensive to spot for these exact pylons
I am Soyaki and I am a platinum 1v1 player. My APM is very low. I understand concepts in Starcraft (2) and my micro can be good but I'm bad at multitasking and my macro will fail long term. My friend fax is better, he 1v1s diamond but is not particularly great either.
This last month we decided to try this strategy in 2v2 and it has propelled us to the top 10 in North America when we previously were only mid-to-high platinum. We used this strategy in every game (even when we were playing the same team twice in a row.)
But here is the graph copied over for viewing pleasure of our 'rise to the top'
I know I'm not good and I tried to make that clear but I wanted to post in this thread to lend some (more) credit to the 5 warp gate/speedling build.
Roaches have given us the most trouble all along. A well-designed terran base with a bunker will keep that terran alive and well though in most cases we then crushed his teammate.
We're currently #7 in North America with 2505 points in Diamond and I think we've pretty much peaked.
This build is also very strong in 3vs3! We play it with 2 Zerg + 1Toss. Its alot easier to hold off early aggresion with 2 teammates instead of 1. Also it`s easier to protect the Proxy-pylons / VIP-probe :-). But the weak Point here is, that if you waste too much time on the first attack, the enemy team gets a big economical advantage. It could get really hard to finish off the last two teammates. With this build time is your biggest enemy so dont waste to much of it :-) But even with this Problem we still win 8 of 10 games.
Some people call this strategy an abuse but thats not true. Its just an strong strategy that alows you to bypass that supid wallins you se every game.... I think terra/toss needs to learn now how to deal with early aggresions. No more chill behind a wallin!!!!!
Well I tried this strat out and must say that it really is as crazy good as everyone says. I must say that I really hate just copying strats so me and my friend decided to make this our own. Instead we are using TP and spotting the high ground using ether orbital command or a reaper. Still working out the kinks but I'll post a replay when we get it down.
@Geiko : Thanks for the new strat, I love these strats that are not normal.
It really doesn't look that unusual until you see the toss saving energy on his nexus. At that point it's hard to scout that because the lings are out.
I faced it yesterday and actually lost to it :D Even though my ally was kinda noob...
A quick fix to beat the strat if the protoss decides to place his pylon somewhat far away from the cliff is to just build stuff at where he can warp in. I built two pylons and he couldn't warp more then 1 or 2 zealots in at a time who got demolished by my own 3 zealots.
Geiko, earlier in the thread (at the end of November) you said that the 2v2 metagame was heading to long macro games. Is that still the case? What are the best strategies now (apart from this one of course)? Who are the top players with real skill? Thanks in advance.
On January 20 2011 10:18 searcher wrote: Geiko, earlier in the thread (at the end of November) you said that the 2v2 metagame was heading to long macro games. Is that still the case? What are the best strategies now (apart from this one of course)? Who are the top players with real skill? Thanks in advance.
like in 1v1 eventually teams are going to hvae to incorporate their builds to take a cheesy build like this into account.
that creates standard builds. unfortunately only the top teams have standard builds and without the abudance of replays i dont think most teams are willing to let people see their builds.
I feel like a terran going for fast reactor hellion would counter this, as well as zerg doing a baling plus spine crawler build. Fast reactor hellions should be standard against a zerg opponent 2v2.
On January 20 2011 10:18 searcher wrote: Geiko, earlier in the thread (at the end of November) you said that the 2v2 metagame was heading to long macro games. Is that still the case? What are the best strategies now (apart from this one of course)? Who are the top players with real skill? Thanks in advance.
Basicaly what phanemkin said, the top players in the world right now are those who effectively counter cheese and engage in long macro games. This takes a little while longer than for 1v1 to even out because of all the possibilities for advanced cheese in 2v2. Also because the best overall players are playing 1v1 (where the money is at :D).
I don't really follow the 2v2 scene that close, but if you want names, I believe Cubert and Aristeo are still owning all the major tournaments (and these guys open with standard openings in regard to 1v1)
@Spiderwafle : Basicaly, from my experience in separate base maps, nothing "counters" this strat (other than faster aggression). By "nothing counters" i mean, one player is going to lose his base if you do this right and commit to the attack. However as you said, a baneling spine crawler zerg will take out most of the two army before going down. Therefor his ally has the possibility to counter and do severe dammage in return. However, i'm not sure about the hellion counter... Hellions take ages to kill zealots and he can stick 2 zealots to your helions and 3 in you mineral line.
On January 20 2011 10:18 searcher wrote: Geiko, earlier in the thread (at the end of November) you said that the 2v2 metagame was heading to long macro games. Is that still the case? What are the best strategies now (apart from this one of course)? Who are the top players with real skill? Thanks in advance.
Basicaly what phanemkin said, the top players in the world right now are those who effectively counter cheese and engage in long macro games. This takes a little while longer than for 1v1 to even out because of all the possibilities for advanced cheese in 2v2. Also because the best overall players are playing 1v1 (where the money is at :D).
I don't really follow the 2v2 scene that close, but if you want names, I believe Cubert and Aristeo are still owning all the major tournaments (and these guys open with standard openings in regard to 1v1)
@Spiderwafle : Basicaly, from my experience in separate base maps, nothing "counters" this strat (other than faster aggression). By "nothing counters" i mean, one player is going to lose his base if you do this right and commit to the attack. However as you said, a baneling spine crawler zerg will take out most of the two army before going down. Therefor his ally has the possibility to counter and do severe dammage in return. However, i'm not sure about the hellion counter... Hellions take ages to kill zealots and he can stick 2 zealots to your helions and 3 in you mineral line.
Two things. firstly, I lost to this today. secondly, I haven't seen this been used in abundance lately.
I have two top teams. PZ and ZZ. my zz partner is from honduras and discs a lot. I have no doubt we'd be near the top if he didn't dc all the time. my pz team is top 50 material. we are currently rated 75th in NA. we still have too many bonus points.
anyways, with zz this is easy to stop. however, pz is harder. I will sorta elaborate on how we deal with this.
there are two things the zerg has to do and that is efficient overlord pathing. spotting this will help the zealot who is making gates as well, to just keep making zealots when you see it. you will know because at those certain cliff locations the zerglings will even get there to protect warping pylon. when this happens, the protoss needs to make constant zealots. meanwhile i tend to do 1 gas roach. if i see this i build around 2-3 sunks and use my roaches to stop it with my partner reinforcing me. if they attack the protoss, I have my roaches aid him with the sunks preventing a zergling runby. stopping the initial push makes everything there from downhill for the opponent.
it is not unbeatable at all. played it 4 times with my mate vs only diamond teams and we lost 2 times. when they scout they see an early push comming for sure. so this is what they do: Block their ramp so that the zerg player cant get into the base. and they just build tons of units. no big deal... If someone's interested in replays how to beat this just contact me
If you only practised it 4 times, you're probably not doing it right. Hell i've done it hundreds of time and i still screw up from time to time Are you warping in at 5:15 ?
We are warping in at around 5:15 - 5:30. One match we played against top diamond team, they played as T and Z. They scouted our build (and assumed correctly that we were going for an extremly fast push) so thats what they did:
Terran: Wallin + 1 bunker and tons of marines, no gas, no nothing. just marines. No chance to get in there with zerglings.
Zerg: scouting with overlords and lings everywhere, going for super fast speedlings as well + 2 spines. no way to place a pylon near the zergs base (he scouted everything, thx to overlords and lings)- No way to run into the terrans base.
Other scenario against top T and P: They scouted, blocked their ramp with 2x2 buildings (takes zerglings like forever to kill it, and there were stalkers and marines firing at them). we attacked the toss, did quit some damage, but terran pushed out with 1000000 marines and killed everything. (Marines do a pretty decent job against zealots and lings if used correctly)
@ peddaz55 : Against T and Z you want to attack Z first. I am fairly confident that nothing later than 10 pool will be able to make more zerglings than the BO i put in the OP for zerg. So if you can't protect the probe making the proxy pylon with your zerglings you are doing something wrong (either you don't use your lings to take map control enough, or you miss scouted the early pool from opponents). At the point where you warp in, you should have at least as many zerglings as the zerg + 5 zealots.
Against P and T, at 5:15 there is also no way that protoss has more than 6 zealots if he went for 13 gate. At most if he scouted, he will have double gated and chronoed zealots and will have approximately 5-6 zealots but no warp gate tech. He also has to use one of his zealots to wal in against zerg so that leaves him with 4-5 zealots to defend agaisnt your 5 and slower reinforcement than you.
Against T and T, this build is hard to pull off effectively and will not work at higher levels (bunkering up and range units > zealots )
If you post your replay i can tell you what you did wrong in more detail
I first saw this thread a good while back but only today did a friend and I practice this. We went about 16-3 in 2v2 and 3v3. (In 3v3 we go 2 toss and 1z) We are scrubby silver players but at the end it matched us against diamond teams which we still beat - although it must be said the quality of the diamonds was waaay better.
The losses were to double 6 pool and where the build got scouted on maps where the opponents share a main. We got cheesed a few times (unscouted cannon rushes because we were trying to perfect the build) However we won all matches where this kind of cheese was involved quite comfortably.
It is a massively strong team build that brings nice synergy to both teams. I can't see me doing it long term since I prefer random games. I also don't want to get promoted out of my skill range.But its certainly a nice change up.
Excellent write up, thanks very much for explaining it so eloquently.
We spammed some 3v3's today and are at about 20-1 with this strat. I feel it's even stronger as a 3v3 since 10 zealots in a base is really terryfing. Although we are silver towards the end of the day the game matched us up with arranged teams that were masters in 1v1 and diamond in all other forms of the game. Certainly a very powerful strat.
This build is yet another example of how skewed Starcraft 2 is toward early game units. 50% of the units in this game might as well not even exist in multiplayer. I would like to see Blizzard buff static defenses so that higher tier units might actually get used once in a while.
I'm approximately a gold level player, and this strategy got me my first 2v2 platinum ranking.
For all the people saying its easily countered cheese, its not! We have beaten MANY 2v2 pairings doing this and it's extremely powerful.
And you know what? We don't even play a cheesy version of this. I play Z and go 14 extractor 14 pool and my partner goes 14 gate into 4gate. While attacking we usually expand at the 6 minute mark.
Here's the beauty of it - the play is so aggressive that even the best players need perfect micro to defend without taking heavy damage. We've gone against 2v2 diamond teams that have and army TWICE as good as ours when we attack. But the mineral line attacks and constant switching between bases is SO relentless that even if they defend REALLY well they're so far behind in economy we eventually break them.
The power of this build is that your units are everywhere at once and it puts the opponent off balance. They see Lings at their front, move to them, and lose probes to zealots. They go to defend the zealots and buildings at their front start falling. They move between bases to help each other out, and lings leak into their mineral line. Meanwhile our economy gets further and further ahead. We've never really had an opponent stabilize against us - the best they've done is get to a point with no economy but a stronger army and suicide bomb us on the way to a raging GG, but if they did stabilize our economy would still be way ahead.
NOT CHEESE.
I will say if the players scout the edges of their base well on most maps they can stop this. It's not unbeatable.
But it's d-mn strong. And in my opinion SC2 rewards aggression, as it should. If you just want to macro and move out with a blob after 20 minutes, play the computer. Seriously. Online the most aggressive player or team usually wins, and this strategy is just a reflection of that.
Oh I see, someone tried this build against us in a 2v2 the other day, unfortunately for him I did a K4G into his own base and killed his one pylon powering his warpgates. Once that pylon was down, he had no chance.
On January 27 2011 03:03 Lensman wrote: This build is yet another example of how skewed Starcraft 2 is toward early game units. 50% of the units in this game might as well not even exist in multiplayer. I would like to see Blizzard buff static defenses so that higher tier units might actually get used once in a while.
YET another example? Care to cite more? If they buff static defenses more it will just be a game of 200 food army faggotry.
On January 27 2011 03:03 Lensman wrote: This build is yet another example of how skewed Starcraft 2 is toward early game units. 50% of the units in this game might as well not even exist in multiplayer. I would like to see Blizzard buff static defenses so that higher tier units might actually get used once in a while.
All it is is an example of exploiting poorly designed maps. There are only 3 or 4 good 2v2 maps, the rest are all-in cheesefests.
On January 27 2011 03:03 Lensman wrote: This build is yet another example of how skewed Starcraft 2 is toward early game units. 50% of the units in this game might as well not even exist in multiplayer. I would like to see Blizzard buff static defenses so that higher tier units might actually get used once in a while.
YET another example? Care to cite more? If they buff static defenses more it will just be a game of 200 food army faggotry.
Do you watch the GSL? If you counted the damage done in the code S games lately, 50% of it would come from marines.
On January 27 2011 03:03 Lensman wrote: This build is yet another example of how skewed Starcraft 2 is toward early game units. 50% of the units in this game might as well not even exist in multiplayer. I would like to see Blizzard buff static defenses so that higher tier units might actually get used once in a while.
YET another example? Care to cite more? If they buff static defenses more it will just be a game of 200 food army faggotry.
Do you watch the GSL? If you counted the damage done in the code S games lately, 50% of it would come from marines.
I doubt that, I'd say a lot of the damage has been done by siege tanks IMO.
I can see this being very powerful, but I'm surprised you don't get shut down more often on maps like Discord IV. I'm really glad you posted this actually, because I have been getting hit with a similar build all the time in 2v2.
I might just be reading the BO wrong, but it looks like toss doesn't have even a single zealot out until well after 18 supply and after 5 gates have gone down. So I guess I'm just curious if he's ever been six pooled, and if he was able to survive it. I know you would be able to assist. If you pull a map like Arid Wastes do you change the build order around to squeak out a zealot faster or do you just count on micro?
**I read most of the replies to this thread but there were ten pages so excuse me if this question has already been posted.
This build is weak against my standard TvZ build. Zerg gets 10pool speed with constant lings, terran gets 4 rax reapers. Zealots and zerg lings are pretty much nullified against my build.
yep, no zealots before the first 5 warped in. However that doesn't mean that you can't get any out before. If your opponents try to 6 pool you, that's basicaly giving you a free win. Your scouting probe at 10 should give you all the warning you need to change your build to counter the 6 pool the way you want. You have a gate at 10 and a pool at 10 so that's really the best possible opening to counter early aggression/cheese.
@blue001 :
10 pool + multiple racks opening = early agression so i usualy switch builds if i scout this. However, 5 zealots in your base, your reapers are going to have a hard time killing them if i decide to procede... i guess we'd have to try it out to see how viable it is.
Protip, if your PT...the only team truely susceptible to this, just thumbs down all the maps w/o shared bases, which leaves only one map where this is a problem, warzone...just keep the zerglings/banes out and you should be able to deal with the toss easily enough.
lol people play PP? =p, my partner and I had a really hard time trying to fight this, we kept trying to rush hardcore with proxy raxs and gates. Most people on US server do this with a 7pool forcing the protoss to chrono out a zeal and delay his gate.
Thanks for a nice tact. I've seen it in 3v3's earier, but surly it is ALOT stronger in 2v2s as the zerg is quite strong around the 4-5min mark as you have pointed out.
However, for the first time I think I got countered "properly" yday in a 2v2 at LT trying to do this. We played a zerg and a protoss. 3-6 seconds after the start the protoss player quitted (I felt this was not an accident, but intentionally). Leaving the zerg with doubble income and able to massing out alot of early zerglings, then speedlings. The ealy massing with doubble income was just too much to handle, after almost killing us with speedlings he then switched over to just massing zealots.
Probably two highskilled players would have easily managed to adapt and see it coming, but for me and my friend it was gg quite quickly.
this comp is pretty tough to beat but it can be beaten by each player turtling extremely hard. if you wall at ramp, it's almost impossible to stop it.
a comp that is 10x stronger than this is TZ.. zerg does the same thing but the terran rushes reactored helions. optik and i have faced this comp like 5 times and haven't taken a single game off of it as r/r. I think this is by far the strongest 2v2 strategy.
Me and my 2v2 mate have been hit by this a lot as well, but after getting destroyed by it the first 2-3 times we now shake it off pretty easy.
Thing is, a protoss doing this is extremely easily scouted. There will be gas, but no probes mining it and there will be a chronoboosted core. Once you see that, all you need to do is put some static up and you win the game right there. What's also fun to do is send out 1-2 marines to take down the overlord that's coming your way. That way zerg not only gets supply-blocked, but also takes away their high-ground vision removing the only real strength from this build - high ground warp-ins.
I certainly concur it's near-unbeatable if you don't see it coming, but if you do it's childishly easy to defend it.
Lings can pretty effectively protect the Overlords and Pylons. In the midwest championship lan this build is everywhere. Some people have gone for Baneling/Hellion to counter successfully, others have tried to blind counter it and failed miserably.
On February 20 2011 17:58 MuazizTremere wrote: Me and my 2v2 mate have been hit by this a lot as well, but after getting destroyed by it the first 2-3 times we now shake it off pretty easy.
Thing is, a protoss doing this is extremely easily scouted. There will be gas, but no probes mining it and there will be a chronoboosted core. Once you see that, all you need to do is put some static up and you win the game right there. What's also fun to do is send out 1-2 marines to take down the overlord that's coming your way. That way zerg not only gets supply-blocked, but also takes away their high-ground vision removing the only real strength from this build - high ground warp-ins.
I certainly concur it's near-unbeatable if you don't see it coming, but if you do it's childishly easy to defend it.
Static defence will not win you a 2vs1 battle (if you have static defence, you don"t have units to help your ally) Also the reason zerg gets a pool at 10 instead of at 13 is specificaly to be out in time to -deny scouting (even though you can scout the saving up chrono boost before the lings come) -protect the proxy probe and pylon (you can't send marines to kill it...)
I've faced this before as dual T. We both just 12 rax/13 rax 15 OC 16 supply, pull 4 scvs each, go at 3 marines with rest rallying, and O-bunker the protoss player before they can even usually have warp 1/4 the way done.
All that's left is a zerg, and one of us expo, one of us tech blue flame.
Thing is, a protoss doing this is extremely easily scouted. There will be gas, but no probes mining it and there will be a chronoboosted core. Once you see that, all you need to do is put some static up and you win the game right there. What's also fun to do is send out 1-2 marines to take down the overlord that's coming your way. That way zerg not only gets supply-blocked, but also takes away their high-ground vision removing the only real strength from this build - high ground warp-ins.
On bigger maps, we do that. We know there's a floating eyeball somewhere, so sacing 2/4 marines to end an entire strategy and put you ahead is rather funny.
On RT is a totally different story. I do much better with people I know (obviously) than with randoms.
On February 21 2011 04:44 iAmJeffReY wrote: I've faced this before as dual T. We both just 12 rax/13 rax 15 OC 16 supply, pull 4 scvs each, go at 3 marines with rest rallying, and O-bunker the protoss player before they can even usually have warp 1/4 the way done.
All that's left is a zerg, and one of us expo, one of us tech blue flame.
Thing is, a protoss doing this is extremely easily scouted. There will be gas, but no probes mining it and there will be a chronoboosted core. Once you see that, all you need to do is put some static up and you win the game right there. What's also fun to do is send out 1-2 marines to take down the overlord that's coming your way. That way zerg not only gets supply-blocked, but also takes away their high-ground vision removing the only real strength from this build - high ground warp-ins.
On bigger maps, we do that. We know there's a floating eyeball somewhere, so sacing 2/4 marines to end an entire strategy and put you ahead is rather funny.
On RT is a totally different story. I do much better with people I know (obviously) than with randoms.
how do you beat an absurd amount of lings with a few marines and scvs
A friend and I used this strategy to climb all the way from Silver 2v2 to Diamond 2v2. It was lots of fun getting wins along the way, but what we've found lately is that when our opponents check their ledge or outside their base for overlords, we are kinda screwed. Now that we are playing against better players that actually do scout, we are not that successful anymore.
Bigger problem is that with this strategy not working, its easy to realize that we cannot keep up with diamond level 2v2 players in a standard game. I'm still only a gold 1v1 and my partner doesn't even really play 1v1. Oh well, guess it was fun while it lasted... now we just have to learn how to actually play the game... haha...
So, out of curiosity, how on earth do people lose to this? I've personally lost to this build once, and that was the first time I'd seen it. If you leave ovies chilling on relevant ledges or just generally keep sight on high ground warp in spots, you can always see the pylon and always shoot at the pylon from the high ground.
Additionally, TZ aggression builds reach your base with about 70% more army food before warp gates finish, denying any opportunity to warp into their base without dying yourself.
So with that out of the way, how do you guys feel about marine/sling vs hellion/sling? Personally I do a lot of marine/sling stuff based on the 11 overpool 18 hatch macro build but I'm interested in the super fast army potential of hellion/sling. Also, I'm a little concerned about rolling over and dying to stalker/ling or stalker/ling/bling.
On February 21 2011 04:44 iAmJeffReY wrote: I've faced this before as dual T. We both just 12 rax/13 rax 15 OC 16 supply, pull 4 scvs each, go at 3 marines with rest rallying, and O-bunker the protoss player before they can even usually have warp 1/4 the way done.
All that's left is a zerg, and one of us expo, one of us tech blue flame.
Thing is, a protoss doing this is extremely easily scouted. There will be gas, but no probes mining it and there will be a chronoboosted core. Once you see that, all you need to do is put some static up and you win the game right there. What's also fun to do is send out 1-2 marines to take down the overlord that's coming your way. That way zerg not only gets supply-blocked, but also takes away their high-ground vision removing the only real strength from this build - high ground warp-ins.
On bigger maps, we do that. We know there's a floating eyeball somewhere, so sacing 2/4 marines to end an entire strategy and put you ahead is rather funny.
On RT is a totally different story. I do much better with people I know (obviously) than with randoms.
how do you beat an absurd amount of lings with a few marines and scvs
Two players can generally produce enough shit to kill one army. There aren't that many lings and scvs do a great job tanking.
On February 21 2011 04:44 iAmJeffReY wrote: I've faced this before as dual T. We both just 12 rax/13 rax 15 OC 16 supply, pull 4 scvs each, go at 3 marines with rest rallying, and O-bunker the protoss player before they can even usually have warp 1/4 the way done.
All that's left is a zerg, and one of us expo, one of us tech blue flame.
Thing is, a protoss doing this is extremely easily scouted. There will be gas, but no probes mining it and there will be a chronoboosted core. Once you see that, all you need to do is put some static up and you win the game right there. What's also fun to do is send out 1-2 marines to take down the overlord that's coming your way. That way zerg not only gets supply-blocked, but also takes away their high-ground vision removing the only real strength from this build - high ground warp-ins.
On bigger maps, we do that. We know there's a floating eyeball somewhere, so sacing 2/4 marines to end an entire strategy and put you ahead is rather funny.
On RT is a totally different story. I do much better with people I know (obviously) than with randoms.
how do you beat an absurd amount of lings with a few marines and scvs
Two players can generally produce enough shit to kill one army. There aren't that many lings and scvs do a great job tanking.
So, out of curiosity, how on earth do people lose to this? I've personally lost to this build once, and that was the first time I'd seen it. If you leave ovies chilling on relevant ledges or just generally keep sight on high ground warp in spots, you can always see the pylon and always shoot at the pylon from the high ground.
Additionally, TZ aggression builds reach your base with about 70% more army food before warp gates finish, denying any opportunity to warp into their base without dying yourself.
So with that out of the way, how do you guys feel about marine/sling vs hellion/sling? Personally I do a lot of marine/sling stuff based on the 11 overpool 18 hatch macro build but I'm interested in the super fast army potential of hellion/sling. Also, I'm a little concerned about rolling over and dying to stalker/ling or stalker/ling/bling.
6 marines and 8 scvs are not going to be able to do anything. By the time they get to the protoss base, zerg has at least 16 ish speedlings and protoss can pull a couple of probes. The zealot counter attack then happens immediatly (with ~3 zealots as the push might have done some economic damage but 3 zealots is enough to beat someone making non stop rallied marines). Also, if the zerg player is any good, he will start harrassing with his first glings, making it very hard for 2 terran players to just walk out of the base and head toward yours.
Concerning the "shoot the pylon theory", you'll find that as Z, it is impossible to be in range of it (roaches range 4, queens range 3 or 4 ?), as protoss, you'll have at most 2 stalkers by the time the rush comes. Try shooting down a pylon with 2 late stalkers (also, lings at your front door). As terran, marines have low range so generaly, only one or two marines will be able to shoot it. If they really want to kill it from inside their base, I just throw down another pylon right next to it and there is no way they can kill both of them before the rush happens.
As for TZ early aggression, it's all about experience Usually, an 11 pool will get us worried and we have a couple of back up builds depending on what we see. Keep in mind that 10 gate/10 pool openings make it extremely easy to crush any form of early agression.
On February 21 2011 04:44 iAmJeffReY wrote: I've faced this before as dual T. We both just 12 rax/13 rax 15 OC 16 supply, pull 4 scvs each, go at 3 marines with rest rallying, and O-bunker the protoss player before they can even usually have warp 1/4 the way done.
All that's left is a zerg, and one of us expo, one of us tech blue flame.
Thing is, a protoss doing this is extremely easily scouted. There will be gas, but no probes mining it and there will be a chronoboosted core. Once you see that, all you need to do is put some static up and you win the game right there. What's also fun to do is send out 1-2 marines to take down the overlord that's coming your way. That way zerg not only gets supply-blocked, but also takes away their high-ground vision removing the only real strength from this build - high ground warp-ins.
On bigger maps, we do that. We know there's a floating eyeball somewhere, so sacing 2/4 marines to end an entire strategy and put you ahead is rather funny.
On RT is a totally different story. I do much better with people I know (obviously) than with randoms.
how do you beat an absurd amount of lings with a few marines and scvs
Two players can generally produce enough shit to kill one army. There aren't that many lings and scvs do a great job tanking.
So, out of curiosity, how on earth do people lose to this? I've personally lost to this build once, and that was the first time I'd seen it. If you leave ovies chilling on relevant ledges or just generally keep sight on high ground warp in spots, you can always see the pylon and always shoot at the pylon from the high ground.
Additionally, TZ aggression builds reach your base with about 70% more army food before warp gates finish, denying any opportunity to warp into their base without dying yourself.
So with that out of the way, how do you guys feel about marine/sling vs hellion/sling? Personally I do a lot of marine/sling stuff based on the 11 overpool 18 hatch macro build but I'm interested in the super fast army potential of hellion/sling. Also, I'm a little concerned about rolling over and dying to stalker/ling or stalker/ling/bling.
6 marines and 8 scvs are not going to be able to do anything. By the time they get to the protoss base, zerg has at least 16 ish speedlings and protoss can pull a couple of probes. The zealot counter attack then happens immediatly (with ~3 zealots as the push might have done some economic damage but 3 zealots is enough to beat someone making non stop rallied marines). Also, if the zerg player is any good, he will start harrassing with his first glings, making it very hard for 2 terran players to just walk out of the base and head toward yours.
Concerning the "shoot the pylon theory", you'll find that as Z, it is impossible to be in range of it (roaches range 4, queens range 3 or 4 ?), as protoss, you'll have at most 2 stalkers by the time the rush comes. Try shooting down a pylon with 2 late stalkers (also, lings at your front door). As terran, marines have low range so generaly, only one or two marines will be able to shoot it. If they really want to kill it from inside their base, I just throw down another pylon right next to it and there is no way they can kill both of them before the rush happens.
As for TZ early aggression, it's all about experience Usually, an 11 pool will get us worried and we have a couple of back up builds depending on what we see. Keep in mind that 10 gate/10 pool openings make it extremely easy to crush any form of early agression.
Thanks for the response. I was about to edit my post to sound like less of a stupid asshole.
Edit: So after reading the thread and doing some testing I discovered that my partner's ability to shoot the pylon is largely a result of our opponents being idiots (pylons can warp in at least three zealots without being in marine range at all). I also discovered that the push that I like to do leaves our base at 4:45 - 4:50 which probably explains our general good fortune against this build. Our of curiosity, when you see an 11 pool, do you just go blind banelings? Because that's happened once or twice and has forced a macro game, though with us in the lead. Alternatively you could do a roach/stalker kind of thing in response to the 11pool but having already taken a pool by then I would be concerned about not having enough econ to possibly support enough roaches.
In any case, what are your specific feelings about 2rax 11pool compared to 10pool 10gate? Stalling results in the 10pool zerg being outproduced by the 11pool zerg and I do not think warpgate/zergling combinations can win against marine/zergling until several warpgate cycles have passed.
Yeah zergs are particularly easy to read, if they are planing for a rush before the 5min mark, they need an earlier pool then 13. If it is TZ or ZZ, we always get banelings (we make 6 zerglings before queen to harass zerg and force him to make zerglings and not some sort of roach rush). PZ don't have much of <5 min rushes except the obvious ones with proxy gates or just mass zealots which are absurdely easy to counter.
On February 21 2011 18:58 Geiko wrote: If it is TZ or ZZ, we always get banelings (we make 6 zerglings before queen to harass zerg and force him to make zerglings and not some sort of roach rush).
So does this mean you do not go speedlings at all against TZ or ZZ ? Just to know if you go (1) speedlings then baneling or (2) go blind baneling to get them faster. Roaches can bit quite hard to deal with if you only have zeelot and banelings. Againt your first 6 glings he could go spine crawlers and roach warren.
I have been practicing this build with my mate a bit in 2on2 diamond level and well TZ or ZZ are our hardest games. Usually if one protoss or more it is quite easy to win. Roaches are quite hard to counter if you do not apply enough early pressure to the zerg.
me and a friend went 12 and 2 with this today and the 2 we lost were against a planetary fort and ling rush and the other was someone that executed this build better than us.
overall AMAZING-NESS! we are in gold 1v1 and plat 1v1 together were in bronz and we're winning against premade diamond teams, i love it! TY TY TY
Hi Geiko, this strategy is a great contribution! I'm really enjoying playing with it.
As a zerg player I've been messing around with the timings you suggested and I believe I have improved the build by 11 seconds (or squeezed out an extra 2 zerglings by 4:41), which seems quite significant in the execution of this build.
My build is as follows:
10 Extractor 10 Extractor Trick 11 Spawning Pool 10 put 2 on gas 10 Extractor Trick 11 Overlord 11 Zergling 12 Queen, then constant Spawn Larvae @100 gas take 2 off gas 14 Metabolic Boost 14 Zergling [4] 18 Overlord 18 Zergling [8]
I would imagine that with 11 second faster zerglings and 9 second faster zergling speed, every team using your strategy should probably consider adopting my modified build order. Perhaps you could add it to the OP?
On February 25 2011 03:22 NB wrote: you cant beat this shit really... everyone in CSL is sending their 2v2 as PZ now a day
Actually my friend and I are a PZ team and we're trying to figure out how to beat this build. Killing the pylon seems out of the question because the lings obviously defend it. How do you go about it? Do you just get spines/cannons? I find I can survive usually with ling/bling and a spine or two, but how can a protoss survive this?
Are there any 2v2 teams that would be willing to be practice partners?
@ShinyGerbil : Many people have their own take on the Z build, i will definitely give yours a try , 2 extra lings seems very interesting (i think at the time my optimizing program didn't take into account extractor tricks so you may be on to something)
@mistyken : As a general rule in 2s, always attack the one who doesn't have static defense, and if both have static defense, proceed to expand safely and out macro your opponents
@DoubleReed : Sorry, i'm on the EU server. I'm actually currently looking for a good level 2s partner (master 1v1 at least) and a good level 2v2 team to try out my new geiko Build 2.0 If anybody is interested PM me !
On February 25 2011 03:22 NB wrote: you cant beat this shit really... everyone in CSL is sending their 2v2 as PZ now a day
Actually my friend and I are a PZ team and we're trying to figure out how to beat this build. Killing the pylon seems out of the question because the lings obviously defend it. How do you go about it? Do you just get spines/cannons? I find I can survive usually with ling/bling and a spine or two, but how can a protoss survive this?
Are there any 2v2 teams that would be willing to be practice partners?
On February 25 2011 06:18 wamooo wrote: any reason walling off at naturals with cannons and whatnot and rushing DTs won't stop this build?
DT's come way late. Its awesome when toss cannons up, its money hes not spent on units and the point of the build is to warp in where there are no cannons.
Due to poorly designed team maps the Zergs have a huge advantage in team games. If the ramp is not shared or entrances not very close to each partner,the zerg can control the map and abuse the early game dominance of their fast and cost efficient units,by being able to choose their fights and prevent the other two allies from helping each other.Also the overlord/pylon warp trick is ridiculously powerful even when you know it's coming.
Unless your own team has a zerg player as well,trying to defend against early Zerg all-ins is hard.
Wow this thread is still open, I remember when this strat was all the rage in 2v2. I'm in the top 1000 world 2v2ish (haven't played in awhile used to be top 200ish), this strat isn't hard to stop. The second you see P+Z you just put pylons around the edge and use a stalker/rauder or two to kill the probe / pylon and its gg for this build. The zerg just pisses away all his production on lings and they are forced to come your front (which you still have to hold) but it isn't that difficult. Good, but certainly not unbeatable.
On March 01 2011 05:13 kamui8899 wrote: Wow this thread is still open, I remember when this strat was all the rage in 2v2. I'm in the top 1000 world 2v2ish (haven't played in awhile used to be top 200ish), this strat isn't hard to stop. The second you see P+Z you just put pylons around the edge and use a stalker/rauder or two to kill the probe / pylon and its gg for this build. The zerg just pisses away all his production on lings and they are forced to come your front (which you still have to hold) but it isn't that difficult. Good, but certainly not unbeatable.
Tbh I kind of wanted to reply as soon as I first read this thread quite shortly after Geiko made it. My mate and me had been facing this build some times before, but the rate at which you got to face it dramatically increased after this. :D
We are probably an okay team, myself a rather mediocre protoss, my mate playing mostly terran back then, now jumping between T and Z.
We have been facing Geiko quite some times as well, though I can't recall anything more specific. Just know we played and know he is a well mannered dood. :D
Since the thread once again came up, I decided to give my two cents as well. Depending on your races the build is easier or harder to deal with.
Before going into some of the later replies, I'd want to say that imho the build is REALLY hard to hold if you don't have at least one terran on your team. For obvious reasons the build suffers HEAVILY if you play it on maps with shared bases. If you do not share a base terran is the only race who can defend against this build without getting help from his mate. Blocking the ramp, while patrolling marines to scout for the pylon(s) makes it really hard for the sling+zealot to be effective. You can in almost every case get your second barracks quite fast upon scouting the build (P with early gate + Z with early gas/pool tell the tale; after this P stopping gas after 50), which ensures you a good amount of marines before the first warpin comes. If the Zerg doesn't add a bling nest (which greatly reduces the number of his lings = it sucks T_T;) , you should just hold it.
A zerg can obviously not hold this off without any help. Since he won't block the ramp he will just get overrun. Even with a spine and wicked hold-position tricks you need help. What can help a little are early-pool builds. Neither the protoss, nor the zerg have enough units to really deal with it early on. I don't mean 6pool all-ins. 8pool going for 8 zerglings followed by a queen can be way enough to really mess up the protoss. Microed well he is almost guaranteed to lose a lot of mining-time or quite some probes, both delaying the push considerably. You still need to deal with the zerg, but this often helps letting your mate get units before the 5gate is up. If you are two zerg the whole thing turns into a micro-fest where you need some good decisionmaking regarding spine/queen and hold-position. :D
Almost the same for the protoss. If you go for a "normal" 12gate+17/18cc at your front, the first warp-in will almost automatically break your block since you wont be able to defend both in-base and the edge at the same time. An option is to get a fast second gate, though. On most maps you scout the first opponent about the same time you place your 12gate, after scouting both the second gate is still in-time so that you can get enough zealots chrono-boosted out to handle the warp-in. Especially if you don't use another CB after your 12gate; whatever you saw till then should make you suspicious enough. If your mate for any reason delayed the protoss any pylon in your allies base can help him considerably defending, asuming you are safe.
On March 01 2011 05:04 iCCup.Diamond wrote: I have never heard of this before last night. Never have seen it, and got smashed by it 5 times in a row. What a gross build. 0.o Also it seems the new maps only make this build stronger and your main requires a ton of buildings/units to watch all the borders.
Adressing the new maps I am not 100% sure. Taking a closer look at the maps the ones that carried over don't really matter.
Maps that were dropped:
Tarsonis Assault: The wide ramp helps the build as well as the fact, that you can place pylons outside the bases that can warp-in without any nearby overlords. You can even place a pylon on the highground, depending on the starting-position of the victim.
Arid Wastes: Dealing with the build on this map was just disgusting. It is the 2on2 map with the longest distance between the allied ramps, which really helps the build big time!
Twighlight Fortress: Shared base, easy to hold.
War Zone: Not good for the build. (Though almost a freewin for Speedling/Marine so I am glad they dropped it.)
New Maps:
Gutterhulk: Kind of far between allied ramps. Quite good map for the build.
Khaydarin Depths: Close distances between both you and your ally and you and your opponent. One of the best maps you can get without shared bases, still the build can be quite effective.
Omega Sector: Somewhat shared bases. The plateaus at the outskirt make it harder, but you can either wall them off or try to block the space the pylon can warp into and thus deny the warp-in.
Red Stone Gulch: Same as Khaydarin Depths, though the map is even weirder, kind of, cause you got the back-rocks.
The Ruins of Tarsonis: Shared base, easy to hold.
In total you had TF and WZ removed, where you could deal with the build rather well but I feel that taking out AW easily makes up for that. The addition of two shared-base maps does not really help the build, so imho KD and RSG decide on which maps the build was better, which I find hard to judge. Especially considering the short amount of time and thus the limited games I have played on those maps, yet. The length of the border is imho not that important because you can hardly deny the warp-in itself anyway. Just knowing where it will be is the best you can hope for. :D
On March 01 2011 05:13 kamui8899 wrote: Wow this thread is still open, I remember when this strat was all the rage in 2v2. I'm in the top 1000 world 2v2ish (haven't played in awhile used to be top 200ish), this strat isn't hard to stop. The second you see P+Z you just put pylons around the edge and use a stalker/rauder or two to kill the probe / pylon and its gg for this build. The zerg just pisses away all his production on lings and they are forced to come your front (which you still have to hold) but it isn't that difficult. Good, but certainly not unbeatable.
I don't agree with you at all. There is really no way you can ever kill the probe and killing all pylons before completion is quite impossible as well. The Probe wont run into your base, you know. If you got a zerg, just try to hold this when their zerg secures your ramp and the protoss waits for his first 10 zealots before they charge together. If your mate's ramp is not REALLY close to yours GL holding it that long.
On February 28 2011 14:31 Afterstar wrote: Due to poorly designed team maps the Zergs have a huge advantage in team games. If the ramp is not shared or entrances not very close to each partner,the zerg can control the map and abuse the early game dominance of their fast and cost efficient units,by being able to choose their fights and prevent the other two allies from helping each other.Also the overlord/pylon warp trick is ridiculously powerful even when you know it's coming.
Unless your own team has a zerg player as well,trying to defend against early Zerg all-ins is hard.
I agree with all of the mapcontroll-part. Holding other Z all-ins without a Z might not be easy if your bases are seperated, still I don't like Z in 2on2 lategame. In 2on2 it is way harder to get more bases up than your opponents, because the thirds are usually really wide open and vulnerable to any kind of pushes. Getting a ton of lings as you are normally forced to in 2on2 makes you suffer losses regarding your units' cost/upkeep efficiency from the midgame on, just compare it to any heavy tank or ray/colo stuff. This is ofc just how I feel it, The gap between muta/hydra and broodlord/ultra just feels so enormous in 2on2. But as stated, I am not really good, just played a few more 2on2s than most of the others. :D
I hope my write-up isn't too messed up content-wise, as a lowly TL-newb I still got to find my style there. I don't mean to "teach" anyone either, I guess most of you would just own me EZ anyway.:D
I'm sorry, I really want to let this thread die but I am not sure what the issue is with killing the probe. The purest form of this build there is no way he can get a stalker out in time to protect his probe as your stalker glibbly patrols the bottom of your base. There is also no way ling speed can be in at this time. I don't understand waht about my post made you think I had assumed his probe was in my base(?); this is very similar to the evolving metagame of spending boost on your gates instead of your cyber to deny the forward pylon and stuff the 4 gate timing.
Also the pylon is visible from the edge of your base, so why not just shoot it from the edge? let him come my front with 10 z's and lings i will forcefield him out and pincer him with my partner. The key to this build is getting the z's up the ramp for free, just use a stalker. As far as I am aware, unless building placement is immaculate, stalker range == pylon range, and if not, he can prob only warp in like 2 units at a time which is easy to stuff. Worst case scenario get a couple stalkers and kill the pylon as it comes in, if he warps in multiple pylons thing get a little more rough but you can shoot the units as the warp in and 1 z and 1 sentry can hold your ramp till your partner gets there ez pz. As a side note: I just tested this, absolutely if you build 2 stalkers and shoot two pylons as they build, the best your opponent can hope for is 4 z's in your base and both pylons will die, alternatively less z's will live if you leave the pylon, but unless he builds 3 pylons there is no way he can ever get more than 4 z's in your base. 1 stalk with another chronoed out can hard deny a 1 pylon and stuff this build completely.
I typically roll a PT team, both can hold it easy enough. Rauders range can easy snipe the pylon as it warps. Not enough experience to answer this with zerg.
BTW your partner also has a ton of time to react b/c if you are smart you can see the pylon start the instant they build it...
I find this build is weakest against 1 base zerg roach and terran in general.
The proper way to counter as zerg is to just one base roach and hold position/ building wall of around hatch to delay death as long as possible so that your ally can get more roaches/ 4 gate/ 3 rax up and running to defend then counter.
Terrans have to pull their scvs to tank and keep their marines alive while keeping lings out with the walloff.
Toss is fucked. You could i guess go for a more econ k4wg and try to hold if your partner also goes lings/banes
On March 02 2011 14:29 kamui8899 wrote: I'm sorry, I really want to let this thread die but I am not sure what the issue is with killing the probe. The purest form of this build there is no way he can get a stalker out in time to protect his probe as your stalker glibbly patrols the bottom of your base. There is also no way ling speed can be in at this time. I don't understand waht about my post made you think I had assumed his probe was in my base(?); this is very similar to the evolving metagame of spending boost on your gates instead of your cyber to deny the forward pylon and stuff the 4 gate timing.
Also the pylon is visible from the edge of your base, so why not just shoot it from the edge? let him come my front with 10 z's and lings i will forcefield him out and pincer him with my partner. The key to this build is getting the z's up the ramp for free, just use a stalker. As far as I am aware, unless building placement is immaculate, stalker range == pylon range, and if not, he can prob only warp in like 2 units at a time which is easy to stuff. Worst case scenario get a couple stalkers and kill the pylon as it comes in, if he warps in multiple pylons thing get a little more rough but you can shoot the units as the warp in and 1 z and 1 sentry can hold your ramp till your partner gets there ez pz. As a side note: I just tested this, absolutely if you build 2 stalkers and shoot two pylons as they build, the best your opponent can hope for is 4 z's in your base and both pylons will die, alternatively less z's will live if you leave the pylon, but unless he builds 3 pylons there is no way he can ever get more than 4 z's in your base. 1 stalk with another chronoed out can hard deny a 1 pylon and stuff this build completely.
I typically roll a PT team, both can hold it easy enough. Rauders range can easy snipe the pylon as it warps. Not enough experience to answer this with zerg.
BTW your partner also has a ton of time to react b/c if you are smart you can see the pylon start the instant they build it...
I don't think you played against this that many times. First of all your base is normally kind of big. You won't just happen to have two stalkers in the exact spot you can shoot at the pylon from. If you do have two stalkers and skip the sentry forthe time being, the zerg can attack your ramp while the toss is building the pylons, forcing you to either let the speedlings in or to back off your stalkers. Also the protoss has no problem with building 3 pylons, which you cant kill whatsoever. If you don't kill the pylon and go for a "normal" build with rather early you won't be able to hold the ramp, since the protoss can just send his zealot to clear it up.
If you as terran go for marauders you don't only lose a lot of time where you are not getting units, you also got quite bad dps against the speedlings, limiting really how much you can leave your base in order to help your mate. Pure marines really just helps a lot more.
You dont have "a ton of time" against this. You have about 40 ingame-seconds from when the pylon begins to when they warp-in for the first time.
On March 02 2011 14:40 fighter2_40 wrote: I find this build is weakest against 1 base zerg roach and terran in general.
The proper way to counter as zerg is to just one base roach and hold position/ building wall of around hatch to delay death as long as possible so that your ally can get more roaches/ 4 gate/ 3 rax up and running to defend then counter.
Terrans have to pull their scvs to tank and keep their marines alive while keeping lings out with the walloff.
Toss is fucked. You could i guess go for a more econ k4wg and try to hold if your partner also goes lings/banes
If you go for tanks you don't have enough marines to kill off the warped-in units in time, imho. This makes it really hard to hold your ramp, even though you can repair it, zealots just kill the scvs really fast. T_T;
I don't know about going roach to counter it, it might work out pretty well, I just haven't tried this a lot. Still you will have the same problem as a terran who is going for marauders, which is not being able to leave your base untill you got about 7 roaches, else the speedlings would just eat them alive. :S
On March 02 2011 13:20 CCow wrote: We have been facing Geiko quite some times as well, though I can't recall anything more specific. Just know we played and know he is a well mannered dood. :D
Ouch !
On March 02 2011 14:29 kamui8899 wrote: I'm sorry, I really want to let this thread die but I am not sure what the issue is with killing the probe. The purest form of this build there is no way he can get a stalker out in time to protect his probe as your stalker glibbly patrols the bottom of your base. There is also no way ling speed can be in at this time. I don't understand waht about my post made you think I had assumed his probe was in my base(?); this is very similar to the evolving metagame of spending boost on your gates instead of your cyber to deny the forward pylon and stuff the 4 gate timing.
I just can't make any sense out of this ? You're claiming that you can just wander a stalker out of your base and magicaly kill my probe before it puts down a pylon (at about 4:40, when Z has about 24 speedlings) ? That is wrong at so many levels I don't even know where to begin :D
I've tried this build with some friends aswell and i have to admit it's really really strong. When we lost with this build it was because we made some mistakes and not because our enemies defended it properly. So thanks Geiko for sharing a very good build with us.
On February 25 2011 03:22 NB wrote: you cant beat this shit really... everyone in CSL is sending their 2v2 as PZ now a day
Actually my friend and I are a PZ team and we're trying to figure out how to beat this build. Killing the pylon seems out of the question because the lings obviously defend it. How do you go about it? Do you just get spines/cannons? I find I can survive usually with ling/bling and a spine or two, but how can a protoss survive this?
Are there any 2v2 teams that would be willing to be practice partners?
Proxy 4 gate in mirrors for the toss, you can skip the cyber/gas/asm so you'll have your zealots out faster. And pretty much unlike 4 gate, the aggressor usually wins this.
(I know it's a lame counter, but other than mass marine/roach or hellion/ling, this build is pretty unstoppable)
I hope blizzard patches the game so you can't warp in units where your ally has vision and you don't, it'd completly end this plus not affect 1v1 in any shape or form.
Do you want to proxy 4 gates right off the bat? If you don't, how do you want to protect proxy-gates against a ton of speedlings?
I know proxy-gates work fine against korean 4gates in 1on1, but here? It seems really situational to me, since I don't like proxying your first gate AT ALL. T_T;
Fixing the warp-in does not make sense to me either, because it kills way more than this build.
On March 02 2011 14:29 kamui8899 wrote: I'm sorry, I really want to let this thread die but I am not sure what the issue is with killing the probe. The purest form of this build there is no way he can get a stalker out in time to protect his probe as your stalker glibbly patrols the bottom of your base. There is also no way ling speed can be in at this time. I don't understand waht about my post made you think I had assumed his probe was in my base(?); this is very similar to the evolving metagame of spending boost on your gates instead of your cyber to deny the forward pylon and stuff the 4 gate timing.
Also the pylon is visible from the edge of your base, so why not just shoot it from the edge? let him come my front with 10 z's and lings i will forcefield him out and pincer him with my partner. The key to this build is getting the z's up the ramp for free, just use a stalker. As far as I am aware, unless building placement is immaculate, stalker range == pylon range, and if not, he can prob only warp in like 2 units at a time which is easy to stuff. Worst case scenario get a couple stalkers and kill the pylon as it comes in, if he warps in multiple pylons thing get a little more rough but you can shoot the units as the warp in and 1 z and 1 sentry can hold your ramp till your partner gets there ez pz. As a side note: I just tested this, absolutely if you build 2 stalkers and shoot two pylons as they build, the best your opponent can hope for is 4 z's in your base and both pylons will die, alternatively less z's will live if you leave the pylon, but unless he builds 3 pylons there is no way he can ever get more than 4 z's in your base. 1 stalk with another chronoed out can hard deny a 1 pylon and stuff this build completely.
I typically roll a PT team, both can hold it easy enough. Rauders range can easy snipe the pylon as it warps. Not enough experience to answer this with zerg.
BTW your partner also has a ton of time to react b/c if you are smart you can see the pylon start the instant they build it...
Spoken like a silver player with omniscience.
Sorry, but you aren't going to have the ability to patrol the edge of your base without leaving your front extremely vulnerable.
You don't even seem to understand how it works. The speedlings protect the pylon, not a stalker. The P doesn't even make a stalker....
It's also not 10 lings, it's 24.
You seem to think you can warp in two sentries to FF your ramp, AND have a 1 zealot wall, AND have a stalker out that can and will solo a pylon from the high ground. It's pretty obvious to me you haven't actually played against this.
If you get two stalkers, you can't get a sentry. If you're shooting the pylon making, then your wall is going to die. If you shoot the pylon down, and your opponent protects your ramp, then he's going to lose all his workers.
While I haven't lost yet to it (only seen it twice, and I was ZZ both times) I also haven't lost with it. Something like 20-0, even in games where we executed it exceedingly poorly.
The simple fact is that the skill level to stop this far exceeds the skill level to execute it in most cases (except, I'd argue against ZZ, but that is addressed in the OP.)
On February 25 2011 03:22 NB wrote: you cant beat this shit really... everyone in CSL is sending their 2v2 as PZ now a day
Actually my friend and I are a PZ team and we're trying to figure out how to beat this build. Killing the pylon seems out of the question because the lings obviously defend it. How do you go about it? Do you just get spines/cannons? I find I can survive usually with ling/bling and a spine or two, but how can a protoss survive this?
Are there any 2v2 teams that would be willing to be practice partners?
Proxy 4 gate in mirrors for the toss, you can skip the cyber/gas/asm so you'll have your zealots out faster. And pretty much unlike 4 gate, the aggressor usually wins this.
(I know it's a lame counter, but other than mass marine/roach or hellion/ling, this build is pretty unstoppable)
I hope blizzard patches the game so you can't warp in units where your ally has vision and you don't, it'd completly end this plus not affect 1v1 in any shape or form.
Well they did remove Tarsonis Assault where you could warp into the opponent's base without a supporting overlord which is just absurd. If there was a larger crevice between the cliff and the land on the other side this would be perfectly fine.
Really, this is just a map issue where the cliffs of your base are frustratingly hard to get to by land. Honestly, it shouldn't be that easy to warp into your opponent's base.
Similarly, it's really stupid to have backdoor rocks that are like a bajillion years away if you go the long way (basically every single 2v2 backdoor). Seriously, people complain about the Blistering Sands rocks... Arid Wastes is like 1000x worse.
Seems to me like the re-awakening of this post got a huge new wave of it going again, at least on the EU server. Eventhough I have to admit to have lost against it quite a few times it was mainly because of some rather huge misplays on our side. Still, like michaelhasanalias is stating, it is rather depressing how really bad players can get away with this, killing you EZ if you don't react 100% correctly.
Being PT it seems to be possible to go for 2barracks+2gateways into 4gateways before gas. Doing this you can pump out a LOT of zealots and marines before the first warp-in and you can even try to deny the pylons, depending on the map. The problem here is ofc, that you need REALLY good scouting. If the Protoss gets his gas running again without you noticing or if they both go ecco mode and you don't see it you will suffer heavily on the protoss part, because you delay you tech imensely.
If your opponents still try to execute the buildwe have been winning this quite comfortably, though. Or at least, as mentioned, when neither of us messed it up big time. Most times we were just able to counter them instantly after defending, and keeping in mind that you ought to have quite some ecco-lead the game is more or less won.
On March 02 2011 14:29 kamui8899 wrote: I'm sorry, I really want to let this thread die but I am not sure what the issue is with killing the probe. The purest form of this build there is no way he can get a stalker out in time to protect his probe as your stalker glibbly patrols the bottom of your base. There is also no way ling speed can be in at this time. I don't understand waht about my post made you think I had assumed his probe was in my base(?); this is very similar to the evolving metagame of spending boost on your gates instead of your cyber to deny the forward pylon and stuff the 4 gate timing.
Also the pylon is visible from the edge of your base, so why not just shoot it from the edge? let him come my front with 10 z's and lings i will forcefield him out and pincer him with my partner. The key to this build is getting the z's up the ramp for free, just use a stalker. As far as I am aware, unless building placement is immaculate, stalker range == pylon range, and if not, he can prob only warp in like 2 units at a time which is easy to stuff. Worst case scenario get a couple stalkers and kill the pylon as it comes in, if he warps in multiple pylons thing get a little more rough but you can shoot the units as the warp in and 1 z and 1 sentry can hold your ramp till your partner gets there ez pz. As a side note: I just tested this, absolutely if you build 2 stalkers and shoot two pylons as they build, the best your opponent can hope for is 4 z's in your base and both pylons will die, alternatively less z's will live if you leave the pylon, but unless he builds 3 pylons there is no way he can ever get more than 4 z's in your base. 1 stalk with another chronoed out can hard deny a 1 pylon and stuff this build completely.
I typically roll a PT team, both can hold it easy enough. Rauders range can easy snipe the pylon as it warps. Not enough experience to answer this with zerg.
BTW your partner also has a ton of time to react b/c if you are smart you can see the pylon start the instant they build it...
Spoken like a silver player with omniscience.
Sorry, but you aren't going to have the ability to patrol the edge of your base without leaving your front extremely vulnerable.
You don't even seem to understand how it works. The speedlings protect the pylon, not a stalker. The P doesn't even make a stalker....
It's also not 10 lings, it's 24.
You seem to think you can warp in two sentries to FF your ramp, AND have a 1 zealot wall, AND have a stalker out that can and will solo a pylon from the high ground. It's pretty obvious to me you haven't actually played against this.
If you get two stalkers, you can't get a sentry. If you're shooting the pylon making, then your wall is going to die. If you shoot the pylon down, and your opponent protects your ramp, then he's going to lose all his workers.
While I haven't lost yet to it (only seen it twice, and I was ZZ both times) I also haven't lost with it. Something like 20-0, even in games where we executed it exceedingly poorly.
The simple fact is that the skill level to stop this far exceeds the skill level to execute it in most cases (except, I'd argue against ZZ, but that is addressed in the OP.)
i agree though on point that skill level to stop is far exceed the level to execute it. however, this is stoppabable. but it takes coordination between the opposing team.
My partner and I had this build happen to us on the ladder the other day and we're kind of at a loss as to how to beat it (z & t we're both high diamond / low masters 1v1 and we occasionally play 2v2 for variety). The issue is that they can warp into either or both bases almost simultaneously and the speedlings can bounce back and forth so fast. I think in our case the zerg has to match the zerg's speedling production while the terran goes marine or maybe even reaper (though i doubt they could get enough reapers out in time) and the speedlings buffer and let the marines do damage. It's tricky to micro and what makes it so hard is that at any point the protoss can just switch focus and warp 4-5 zealots into the person who isn't gettting attacked's base. I disagree that a zerg has to go roach against it because the roaches are so immobile and the other person's base can just get attacked. One person defending has to have a highly mobile force.
It is worth noting that this won't work on a shared base map, at the least it's much easier to defend.
Not unbeatable but it definitely is one of those things where it's much harder to defend than to execute.
Since terran nerf, they can't really throw anything at you before 5 minutes anyways
I KNOW right!? People cried to much and Reapers were made useless
Read the entire OP so it's all YOUR fault!? :D Going to watch 3 of the reps, but now I know why I'm losing to this rush by scrub players -_-
It's virtually impossible to stops this early as T, I barely have a few units when 4-5 zeals gets warped inside my base and lings kill me if I move out, if I defend they just kill my ally >_<
mmm. top level play TZ 10p sling/helion destroys this imo.
the zergs will wipe each other out. all the T needs to be able to do is get 2 rounds of reactor'd helions out. (not hard, from experience they're generally warping in while the 3rd and 4th are producing.) they fry fast. if they warp in on the zerg he only needs a spine or 2 with correct placement/micro.
the only real difficulty comes is if they start warping stalkers into the T base relatively quickly. but even then, helion/scv reem that too. this is all granted you're microing correctly of course.
just my 2 cents.
however. with all the being said. in regards to most levels of play. it is an extremely powerful build and extremely simple to execute. resulting in a lot of loses to inferior players for many teams.
On November 21 2010 12:56 Geiko wrote:
Terrans teching to hellions are not a concern. Zealots in mineral line > hellions killing zealots in 20 hits.
the 3rd and 4th hellions off a reactor tech pop at 5:20ish. zealots tend to clump. hellions roll this. and as a ZT team your zerg ally can easily defend your front. as long as the T is competent enough to pull the scv's away from the zealots that suicide the mineral line you'll only lose a couple seconds mining. meanwhile the hellion numbers continue to climb and you guys are stuck at mass zealot ling...
99% of the so called "top" 2v2 players only get carried by their build/unit combo.
i gave up playing this long time ago
2v2 is extremely intense at high level. and while yes. the meta game is completely different in 2s, as opposed to 1v1, this does mean that "top" teams roll 95% of the community no problem because they actually know the metagame.
it takes a LOT longer in team games to learn the metagame because experience with partners and race combos basically just multiply all the possibilities for how a game can play out. you could be the 2 sickest players out there. but if you two are completely inexperienced playing together and are facing a veteran team who have hundreds of games together, you're going to be at a disadvantage.
BUT. with that being said. at high level. top teams are generally only playing other top teams if they're earning any points whatsoever for their wins. this means that it turns into a battle of execution. which to be honest. i personally find a lot of fun. the games are fast, intense, micro intensive and action packed.
however, VERY TINY mistakes in 2s lead to losses and it can be frustrating. a single simple misclick can spell LOSS. but at times that same reason makes it rewarding as well.
my only 2 beefs with the gametype are.
1. you basically HAVE to have a zerg on your team to compete. if you don't i honestly think you're at a disadvantage right off the bat.
and
2. teams with a protoss and no zerg (P/T and P/P) are extremely vulnerable to very aggressive builds from Z/T, Z/Z and Z/P combos.
to sum up.....you need at least 1 friggin zerg on your team.......and if you're protoss your ally better be zerg or you're screwed to begin with.
I typically roll a PT team, both can hold it easy enough. Rauders range can easy snipe the pylon as it warps. Not enough experience to answer this with zerg.
first off, you'd have to go straight marauder to even start attacking it in time.
oh, and by the way. nothing is stopping the protoss from making more than 1 pylon outside your base. good luck being able to kill more than just 1 pylon in time.
and 2nd. if you're making marauders vs this build they're just going to go to the P base. and then you're stuck in your base and CAN NOT aid your ally as they 2v1 him because you decided to marauder.
On March 02 2011 14:29 kamui8899 wrote:
BTW your partner also has a ton of time to react
no they don't. not a chance. not if you're playing vs someone even half competent who knows how to execute the build just a tiny bit correctly.
what's a pylon build time? like 30 in game fast as hell seconds? lol yeeeeeeah.
As far as I understand the general consensus is that this build is way too easy to execute compared to how easy it is to stop. This puts it in the same spot as the speedling/reaper build that haunted 2v2 ladder just after release. Hence it needs to be fixed. I'm all for cheesing, but when stopping it is harder than executing, then that's just wrong. The counter to cheese should be scouting, and if properly scouted then it should be easily countered, which obviously is not the case here.
I think the easiest fix for this is to adjust the maps, not the mechanics. Here you have several options. The first one is to make it harder to warp in units into the main. Instead of a cliff up to your ramp, you could have water which the pylon power doesn't reach across. Or you could have high-ground followed by low ground (think of how kulas ravine is laid out), which means you can only warp in units on the high ground, and then are stuck up there. This doesn't rule out late game backstabbing as you could have backdoor rocks and to prevent warp-ins across these, you could either make them large enough so that pylon power doesn't reach across, or you could have 2 rocks and half health on each.... so you could only warp in across one of the rocks, and not the other. If you insist on having the main on a cliff, you could still fix this particular cheese by putting the mains far enough apart so that you don't have enough time to get 2 overlords by each players base at the 5 minute mark (have to do some testing to see if this is possible without maps getting way too large). Finally, you could also have a shared base, as already mentioned will greatly help out defending against this.
I'm sure there are a number of other fixes for it, but my main point is that it would be easiest to adjust balance by changing the maps and not the mechanics.
I'm sure there are a number of other fixes for it, but my main point is that it would be easiest to adjust balance by changing the maps and not the mechanics.
i think the problem is, PARTICULARLY considering what the new additions to the 2v2 map pool were, is that......blizzard just doesn't care .....either that or they think it's a perfectly legit build balance wise.
I'm sure there are a number of other fixes for it, but my main point is that it would be easiest to adjust balance by changing the maps and not the mechanics.
i think the problem is, PARTICULARLY considering what the new additions to the 2v2 map pool were, is that......blizzard just doesn't care .....either that or they think it's a perfectly legit build balance wise.
To be fair the new maps ARE improvements even if they don't prevent this build. It's easier to have a macro game with things like protected side expansions, yet still vulnerable enough to be interesting (i.e. widespread bases with openings for drops, breakable rocks, etc.
I just don't know if Blizzard's data is granular enough to collect statistics on the unbeatable PZ build. I do think in the broader sense, beyond this PZ is probably not absurdly dominant, i.e. in the aggregate it's probably not PZ teams dominating across the board. Most teams I've run into at a reasonably high diamond 2v2 level don't do this korean 4 gate business.
It's probably the case some matchups are lopsided (i.e. PP loses against most..), but of 36 matchups I would think, based on how frequently some matchups are played (i.e. TP, TZ or PZ is very common) these matchups are pretty balanced overall. And with 2v2 there's so much volatility it's hard to really tell... so there's probably no balance issue that juts out, except the small minority of TT vs PP games or whatever. Blizzard definitely puts less time into 1v1 than 2v2, but they probably just can't see the issue with this build in their data.
Well executed OP + amazing strategy that actually works? Win.
If I had to say one bad thing about this, it's that this build is a micro build. It doesn't get even close to mid-game and a lot of the strategy is dependent on the micro part, deploying your units simultaneously, and coordinating them to the best possible effect. Still a very good build though.
The new maps are not bad for this build. I was not sure about it first, but I am quite sure now, after I have played on all of them quite a little. The build is not over-powered or anything it is just, as many have stated up to now, way easier to execute than it is to defend against it. I wrote quite something to how I think how to respond to it before, so I won't repeat it again. :D
The reason for most high-ranked teams not to use this, is that is has close to no good follow-up so it's quite all-in. Even the banelin follow-up by zerg does not change this fact. And honestly, playing all-in ever game is just SUPER-BORING(!) and won't help you at all in understanding how 2v2 works. Most high-ranked PZ teams can execute this build and do it once in a while, just not every game unlike quite some teams I have played where you can be like 150% sure they will play it even if you meet them the third time in a row, because they are like plat-level 1on1.
On March 17 2011 22:26 CCow wrote: The reason for most high-ranked teams not to use this, is that is has close to no good follow-up so it's quite all-in.
True statement. Especially when most ZT teams will go 10p/hellion and can completely shred a team if they do this build. A lot of builds in 2's that I've seen open the same but then it's all about the transitions. A korean 5 gate build has less transition ability than a standard 4gate so if the first push fails then it'd be difficult to makea comeback against an even-matched team.
My 2v2 build beats this... 10 marines plus 6 scvs by 4:10 and IN ur base by 4:40... we haven't lost a single 2v2 match unless it's double zerg who rush roach..
This was happening until I took a break on February 24, 2011.. I'm trying to improve marks.
This was before master league in 2s was out. We reached 1 diamond with 3k points... when I come back at the end of the semester we will hit 1 masters )
We're going to release our build to TL soon. It's the best TvZ 1v1 build and 2v2 build ever. COMING SOON TO A TL POST NEAR YOU!
Hope you got some reasons for that announcement. Haven't had too many problems with mass marine all-ins so far, so it should be rather impressive. If it is just another marine+speedling mass-build it would not really be new or anything. Also, what's your nick and maybe your teammate's? Rather hard to find anything that legitimates your post so far.
So each of you get 5 marines and send 3 scv's? I can't say I've had any problems with it. Last time someone tried doing that to me I laid down 4 spines and counter attacked. I killed both terran mineral lines completely and forced them to lift off. They killed my teammate and tried to kill me but couldn't. I think a lot of people just panic when they see a push like that and don't react properly.
On March 18 2011 02:06 GetGood wrote: So each of you get 5 marines and send 3 scv's? I can't say I've had any problems with it. Last time someone tried doing that to me I laid down 4 spines and counter attacked. I killed both terran mineral lines completely and forced them to lift off. They killed my teammate and tried to kill me but couldn't. I think a lot of people just panic when they see a push like that and don't react properly.
Don't forget that one bunker for terran and stalker-micro + guardianshield or, if you can see it is all-in, cannons take care of it as well. Don't see that being imba so far.
On March 18 2011 02:21 oGm`REM wrote: This is a very good strat in my opinion. Do you have anything for T/P or T/Z?
I don't know about T/P since I play Z but the standard for a lot of T/Z teams is going to be 10p/hellion and then transition. Depending on the game I've seen T transition into Viking, Banshee or Marauders depending on the other teams composition.
Thin again? T/Z if hellion is the T-part could the p possibly mean "pool"? :p Also it's rather hard to say stuff about "other MUs" because 5gate isn't really the "standard for" P/Z, but still rather stalker+ling/bling. So if you search for builds that are about as effective for the same difficulty, that's quite a difference. Other than that I can sign GetGood's post. Hate to play against it. QQ! ^^
Hm, I might have to try this with a buddy.. is it viable vs all most possible match ups?
Rarely anything is viable in all matchups, even one matchup. In particular it's going to get roflstomped by double P. Stalker/sentry ball.... Even against double zerg, I'd imagine roaches soft counter this though you could make the argument the mobility is really important.
I think this is more of a specific counter to this build
On March 18 2011 06:11 oGm`REM wrote: Hm, I might have to try this with a buddy.. is it viable vs all most possible match ups?
It's more based on match up and the map. If the zerg can't do any damage with the 10 pool then they'll be behind on economy and be harder to make a comeback.
On March 18 2011 05:27 GetGood wrote: basic build orders:
10 gas 9 pool
hellion is depot gas rax factory reactor switch
Hm, I might have to try this with a buddy.. is it viable vs all most possible match ups?
it really depends. vs teams with zerg who ling early it's deadly. you can win the game reeeeeeal fast.
this isn't really the type of build that you just go. "ok u mass some lings and we'll hit when i get 10 hellions."
the power of the build really comes with how u play it. ie; aggressively as hell.
i've been typing sentence after sentence and deleting them and deleting them over and over again in attempt to try and explain it. the best i could do is offer you some high level 2v2 reps of mine where the build's being used. pm me if you want some.
it takes a long long while to learn the meta game for 2s. learning when you should use it and not. it's tough and just comes with experience.
This strategy is too strong,especially against PT,PZ,TZ,PP. Easy to execute,yet so hard to defend and even if you defend,you are on even grounds with your opponents.So PZ gets a free shot for an easy win and if it doesn't work,it's a normal game;because there is just not enough time to prepare a good counter attack,before they also have a good army.
Below in the pictures we can see that you can have a pylon and an overlord vision out of range of the marines,so a Terran needs to get a Maurauder if he wants to shoot down the pylon from inside his base.There is enough room to warp in 4 zealots at one time,if there are no units there to block the space.The zerglings defend the pylons while they warp in,so slow moving units such as marines or zealots have no chance moving out to kill it from outside.If you try to kill it from inside your base,they can just put one or two more pylons further away,in which case,there is no time to kill them all before a warp in.
You have to, both you and your ally play flawlessly and ten times better than your opponents to be able to defend,which is absurb imo.Also if you prepare for it and it doesn't come,you will be way behind in eco,so it's a win-win situation for PZ.
On April 15 2011 04:20 RinconH wrote: So how do you beat this build?
I hate it... I seldom can beat it unless its poorly executed.
I mean, you can beat it if you completely change your standard build order to stop it but if they don't do it then you are screwed.
Sadly the best way to "beat" it,is to avoid it all together. You thumbs down as many maps as possible that don't have a shared base,or have a long distance between ramps for non-shared bases.This way you increase your chances of survival.
On April 15 2011 03:14 Afterstar wrote: This strategy is too strong,especially against PT,PZ,TZ,PP. Easy to execute,yet so hard to defend and even if you defend,you are on even grounds with your opponents.So PZ gets a free shot for an easy win and if it doesn't work,it's a normal game;because there is just not enough time to prepare a good counter attack,before they also have a good army.
Below in the pictures we can see that you can have a pylon and an overlord vision out of range of the marines,so a Terran needs to get a Maurauder if he wants to shoot down the pylon from inside his base.There is enough room to warp in 4 zealots at one time,if there are no units there to block the space.The zerglings defend the pylons while they warp in,so slow moving units such as marines or zealots have no chance moving out to kill it from outside.If you try to kill it from inside your base,they can just put one or two more pylons further away,in which case,there is no time to kill them all before a warp in.
You have to, both you and your ally play flawlessly and ten times better than your opponents to be able to defend,which is absurb imo.Also if you prepare for it and it doesn't come,you will be way behind in eco,so it's a win-win situation for PZ.
How is this build hard for TZ teams?? The standard TZ build should dominate this. Hellions own lings and zealots. You should have 4 hellions by the time this hits.
On April 15 2011 06:00 Mastermind wrote: How is this build hard for TZ teams?? The standard TZ build should dominate this. Hellions own lings and zealots. You should have 4 hellions by the time this hits.
Theorycrafting is theory.
My 2v2 partner and myself started to do this build EVERY GAME and have won the last 9 out of 9 games. (This is at a plat 2v2 level)
If my memory serves me correctly, the last TZ we played the T opened with hellions, but the problem here is the simple fact of shear numbers. My 2v2 partner and myself play LAN so communication is HUGE and we are always perfectly coordinated. Ling surround the hellions while pushing towards them with zealots. Blue flame isn't nearly done when this attack hits, and the hellions simply don't have the DPS to take care of 5 zealots per warpin and 24+ lings.
Pretty much, if there is a Z on the opposing team, it is a free win. Since the Z can't wall off early game, the rush hits @ 5:30ish with 5 zealots and 24 lings in the zerg base, and there is simply NO reaction to this. It simply wins, period.
This build is completely OP, but it doesn't stop us from abusing it while it lasts. VERY fun build for a good IRL team... it's micro intensive and promotes strategic thinking and communication from both players (winning)
Nah, I got to agree with the poster above you, hellion/lings destroys this. However it is 10 pool and gas before rax so you should see it coming and change your game plan.
As a P/T team best counter to this is, 2 gate zeal, 3 rack marine rush. The toss will be dead before he can warp. You just have to scout early so you can adept when it's coming. Most of the teams doing this build don't know any other build anyway so they don't adept and get rushed.
optikzero and I run r/r for fun from time to time. When we see this, we just turtle individually. If you try to help your partner you will die (non-shared bases) Protoss simcity nexus and get 2 cannons maybe even 3. Terran simcity cc with 2 bunkers and with good simcity + repair you will live. Then just get void ray or banshee and win.
On April 16 2011 02:48 Alejandrisha wrote: optikzero and I run r/r for fun from time to time. When we see this, we just turtle individually. If you try to help your partner you will die (non-shared bases) Protoss simcity nexus and get 2 cannons maybe even 3. Terran simcity cc with 2 bunkers and with good simcity + repair you will live. Then just get void ray or banshee and win.
speed lings hellion is 20x better
Yea pretty much this. The design of nearly all 2v2 maps precludes mutual defense from being a possibility against most double early harass, since your ramp works against you if you try to help (against a competent team).
On April 15 2011 06:00 Mastermind wrote: How is this build hard for TZ teams?? The standard TZ build should dominate this. Hellions own lings and zealots. You should have 4 hellions by the time this hits.
Theorycrafting is theory.
My 2v2 partner and myself started to do this build EVERY GAME and have won the last 9 out of 9 games. (This is at a plat 2v2 level)
If my memory serves me correctly, the last TZ we played the T opened with hellions, but the problem here is the simple fact of shear numbers. My 2v2 partner and myself play LAN so communication is HUGE and we are always perfectly coordinated. Ling surround the hellions while pushing towards them with zealots. Blue flame isn't nearly done when this attack hits, and the hellions simply don't have the DPS to take care of 5 zealots per warpin and 24+ lings.
Pretty much, if there is a Z on the opposing team, it is a free win. Since the Z can't wall off early game, the rush hits @ 5:30ish with 5 zealots and 24 lings in the zerg base, and there is simply NO reaction to this. It simply wins, period.
This build is completely OP, but it doesn't stop us from abusing it while it lasts. VERY fun build for a good IRL team... it's micro intensive and promotes strategic thinking and communication from both players (winning)
Theorycrafting is theory... and then you are plat. Build is not completely OP, your opponents are just too bad to defend against it. And actually, the hellions can kill your zealots off. I'm guessing your opponents just aren't maximizing hellion move dps.
TZ doesn't really have as much difficulty holding this off compared to certain other compositions, mainly because TZ is super strong on most maps. Think of it this way - zerg can hold off double 10 pool speed. If they go for the krn 5 gate, it is very obvious, and as a zerg you just have to hold, buy time, and bleed the opposing armies as much as possible, let terran quickly have too much stuff for opponents to deal with. especially, if TZ spawns on left side of Scorched with T on top position, you will have a difficult time, because if I recall correctly at that position you can actually wall with depot+rax, so your reactor can't be harassed by anything except by zealots that are warping in, and all you have to do is spot the warp in, then position your hellions so that they shoot in a line that maximizes overall dps on the zealots.
Furthermore, the hellion build is usually followed by starport into banshee immediately upon factory completion, while continuing hellion production, so you will have further issues to deal with, though personally I might just go double factory 1 tech lab blue flame + 1 reactor if I saw this.
This build is also not particularly micro/multitasking intensive, mostly because you've got a super slow unit and a super fast unit. TZ builds are generally more micro/multitask intensive, if you want builds that are like that
p.s. 10pool speed + 8rax reaper proxy will throw a bone in your plans
On April 16 2011 06:00 YourMom wrote: As a protoss I just build gateways and pylons in the most used locations of this strat. So they can't warp in shit in mah base.
You dont even need to try and guess. Wiat ill you see the pylon going up, and buid your next building in the warp in zone. Since your both of your ecos will be wrecking theres, you can just throw up a forge for the first pylon block, and completely wall off. Obviously T has no issue holding this agressiong at their wall with 3/4 scv on autorepaur and a few rines. The rest of the rines can make sure no warp ins occur, and 1 rauder can kill any pylons.
PT should hold this with a complete wall in and cannons as long as you make a pylon part of the initial wall. Youll lose a building and a pylon, but your eco will crush theirs so it doesnt matter.
On April 15 2011 06:00 Mastermind wrote: How is this build hard for TZ teams?? The standard TZ build should dominate this. Hellions own lings and zealots. You should have 4 hellions by the time this hits.
Theorycrafting is theory.
My 2v2 partner and myself started to do this build EVERY GAME and have won the last 9 out of 9 games. (This is at a plat 2v2 level)
If my memory serves me correctly, the last TZ we played the T opened with hellions, but the problem here is the simple fact of shear numbers. My 2v2 partner and myself play LAN so communication is HUGE and we are always perfectly coordinated. Ling surround the hellions while pushing towards them with zealots. Blue flame isn't nearly done when this attack hits, and the hellions simply don't have the DPS to take care of 5 zealots per warpin and 24+ lings.
Pretty much, if there is a Z on the opposing team, it is a free win. Since the Z can't wall off early game, the rush hits @ 5:30ish with 5 zealots and 24 lings in the zerg base, and there is simply NO reaction to this. It simply wins, period.
This build is completely OP, but it doesn't stop us from abusing it while it lasts. VERY fun build for a good IRL team... it's micro intensive and promotes strategic thinking and communication from both players (winning)
umm what? 24lings + 5 zealots loses to 24 lings + 4 helions. That isnt theorycraft, that is common sense. The fact that you are in platinum league 2v2 tells me that you have no idea what you are talking about. If it was unstoppable like you suggest than you would be in masters league like I am.
On April 16 2011 02:48 Alejandrisha wrote: optikzero and I run r/r for fun from time to time. When we see this, we just turtle individually. If you try to help your partner you will die (non-shared bases) Protoss simcity nexus and get 2 cannons maybe even 3. Terran simcity cc with 2 bunkers and with good simcity + repair you will live. Then just get void ray or banshee and win.
speed lings hellion is 20x better
Pretty much this. I <3 Blue posts, whenever they talk about things I know, they are always spot on so I'm pretty much sure I can trust them for the things I don't know
(edit : I also love all of EtheralDeath's post on 2v2, if you guys are looking for advice on how to beat this strat, or just how to play in 2vs2, just read his posts)
I would just add that when turtling hard core as PT, you're totaly giving up scouting and map control. As terran it's a good idea to throw a scan sometime before 5min to make sure they haven't just cancelled the gates and expanded when they see your forge/bunker. As protoss, in a PP team, you pretty much have to guess (but who plays PP right ?)
Also, lol to the guy a couple posts above who says he can take out proxy pylons with one marauder.
On April 16 2011 02:48 Alejandrisha wrote: optikzero and I run r/r for fun from time to time. When we see this, we just turtle individually. If you try to help your partner you will die (non-shared bases) Protoss simcity nexus and get 2 cannons maybe even 3. Terran simcity cc with 2 bunkers and with good simcity + repair you will live. Then just get void ray or banshee and win.
speed lings hellion is 20x better
Pretty much this. I <3 Blue posts, whenever they talk about things I know, they are always spot on so I'm pretty much sure I can trust them for the things I don't know
(edit : I also love all of EtheralDeath's post on 2v2, if you guys are looking for advice on how to beat this strat, or just how to play in 2vs2, just read his posts)
I would just add that when turtling hard core as PT, you're totaly giving up scouting and map control. As terran it's a good idea to throw a scan sometime before 5min to make sure they haven't just cancelled the gates and expanded when they see your forge/bunker. As protoss, in a PP team, you pretty much have to guess (but who plays PP right ?)
Also, lol to the guy a couple posts above who says he can take out proxy pylons with one marauder.
If my memory serves me correctly, the last TZ we played the T opened with hellions, but the problem here is the simple fact of shear numbers. My 2v2 partner and myself play LAN so communication is HUGE and we are always perfectly coordinated. Ling surround the hellions while pushing towards them with zealots. Blue flame isn't nearly done when this attack hits, and the hellions simply don't have the DPS to take care of 5 zealots per warpin and 24+ lings.
If zerglings get a surround then the opponent must have weaker micro skills than you. A hellion in a base is very strong, and 4 is even worse. I am also curious how the zerglings got into the base, unless the warped in zealots broke down the terran wall before the hellions got them.
My personal opinion is that this build can be countered by me and my allies plan (Sort of, and not 100% sure). I always 10 pool, which gives me about a 5 second advantage to this build. I also get my queen up faster (I have almost 300 minerals when pool pops), and have 6 zerglings up immediately. This build means you will have a queen starting to build at about 3:05 and 4 zerglings popping out. In other words, if I rush you and queue to your base, you will have a big problem, as I will have earlier/faster production for a while. Of course, once zergling speed kicks in I will have a tech disadvantage, but in the mean time... Btw, my ally then rushes for void rays, which if we made it to that stage would be a terrifying thing for you, even with a few stalkers.
My zerglings can also be simply used for map control for a while: I will be able to destroy those pylons, especially if my ally sends one or more units to help. If I have a terran ally, he will just snipe those overlords.
On the other hand, I'd like to say that it's an awesome, well thought strategy. If surprised, your opponent will have a hard time beating it. On the other hand, if the build gets abused by too many players, the 2vs2 game will shift and EVERYONE will start 6/7/9/10 pooling to counter this.
optikzero and I run r/r for fun from time to time. When we see this, we just turtle individually. If you try to help your partner you will die (non-shared bases) Protoss simcity nexus and get 2 cannons maybe even 3. Terran simcity cc with 2 bunkers and with good simcity + repair you will live. Then just get void ray or banshee and win.
speed lings hellion is 20x better
Do you tech up then? Void rays would totally own this build, so would dt and banshee (If cloaked even worse).
On April 17 2011 02:05 DarkCore wrote: Do you tech up then? Void rays would totally own this build, so would dt and banshee (If cloaked even worse).
Eh... you need to check your timings. This rush hits @ 5:20ish... and if I spot a voidray rush or DT or any other tech heavy cheese, I just snipe the tech structures and laugh all the way to the victory. Usually with early Voidray rushes, protoss gets a zealot and stalker / MAYBE sentry, and thats it. 5 zealots and 24 speedlings in that base will destroy your economy and / or tech before your first void is anywhere NEAR completion.
And as far as cloaked banshee goes, I've never gone up against this, but I have gone up against a teching terran multiple times, and they usually leave all their marines by the wall... and when my initial zealots start running towards their marines, they are trapped against their own wall. If they lower the wall to try and get away, the speedlings run in and take care of everything else.
at brood war i was the absolute best at terran sim city double minline bunkers and everything placed so that all buildings are covered by bunkers or minline which is hard because terran buildings with addons are large as hell extended naturally into late-game turtle so elegant that it was almost a shame to see three hundred supply zerg knock them down
oh man in sc2 i can add a planetary fortress to the mix time to go be invincible
On April 17 2011 02:43 EmeraldSparks wrote: at brood war i was the absolute best at terran sim city double minline bunkers and everything placed so that all buildings are covered by bunkers or minline which is hard because terran buildings with addons are large as hell extended naturally into late-game turtle so elegant that it was almost a shame to see three hundred supply zerg knock them down
oh man in sc2 i can add a planetary fortress to the mix time to go be invincible
I don't get the point of this. If you turtle too hard to lose via other means.
hopefully bliz fixes their stim nerf, terran early game has turned into a turtlefest with a great wall of bunkers, even if you're going 3-rax w/ stim, you can't move out until it's finished.
I've hit this a few times on ladder btw, and this build gets destroyed by properly micro'd mass hellion build, in a PZvTT matchup, double hellion opening into banshees will just plain kill you, no way you can break the front with lings, and your warp-in's won't do shit because zealots die so fast to hellions. This build is extremely abusive, takes absolutely 0 skill to execute, and has a skill cap of a pineapple. Hopefully they nerf the crap out of protoss, gateway pushes are destroying terran too hard atm in 1v1 as is, if 1v1 was balanced then maybe 2v2 would be as well, but since toss is imba in 1v1 it's quite logical that they'd be imba in 2v2, especially with a cheesing partner to protect their precious pylon
On April 17 2011 10:54 CatNzHat wrote: I've hit this a few times on ladder btw, and this build gets destroyed by properly micro'd mass hellion build, in a PZvTT matchup, double hellion opening into banshees will just plain kill you, no way you can break the front with lings, and your warp-in's won't do shit because zealots die so fast to hellions. This build is extremely abusive, takes absolutely 0 skill to execute, and has a skill cap of a pineapple. Hopefully they nerf the crap out of protoss, gateway pushes are destroying terran too hard atm in 1v1 as is, if 1v1 was balanced then maybe 2v2 would be as well, but since toss is imba in 1v1 it's quite logical that they'd be imba in 2v2, especially with a cheesing partner to protect their precious pylon
Uh... how is protoss imba in 2v2 lol, wtf are you playing. You sound pretty angry too, can't say I see too many high level terrans losing to just gateway push (pretty sure they adapted to that type of build already) unless they just don't see it coming or whatever.
p.s. I play terran or zerg in 2v2, can't stand playing as protoss in 2v2.
On April 17 2011 10:54 CatNzHat wrote: I've hit this a few times on ladder btw, and this build gets destroyed by properly micro'd mass hellion build, in a PZvTT matchup, double hellion opening into banshees will just plain kill you, no way you can break the front with lings, and your warp-in's won't do shit because zealots die so fast to hellions. This build is extremely abusive, takes absolutely 0 skill to execute, and has a skill cap of a pineapple. Hopefully they nerf the crap out of protoss, gateway pushes are destroying terran too hard atm in 1v1 as is, if 1v1 was balanced then maybe 2v2 would be as well, but since toss is imba in 1v1 it's quite logical that they'd be imba in 2v2, especially with a cheesing partner to protect their precious pylon
You are clueless. Go to scranks.com and look at master league for 2v2, 3v3, and 4v4. At the top of those ladders protoss is the least common race by a significant margin.
edit: I play protoss in 1v1, but rarely use them in team games because protoss is the weakest in my experience.
On April 17 2011 10:54 CatNzHat wrote: I've hit this a few times on ladder btw, and this build gets destroyed by properly micro'd mass hellion build, in a PZvTT matchup, double hellion opening into banshees will just plain kill you, no way you can break the front with lings, and your warp-in's won't do shit because zealots die so fast to hellions. This build is extremely abusive, takes absolutely 0 skill to execute, and has a skill cap of a pineapple. Hopefully they nerf the crap out of protoss, gateway pushes are destroying terran too hard atm in 1v1 as is, if 1v1 was balanced then maybe 2v2 would be as well, but since toss is imba in 1v1 it's quite logical that they'd be imba in 2v2, especially with a cheesing partner to protect their precious pylon
You are clueless. Go to scranks.com and look at master league for 2v2, 3v3, and 4v4. At the top of those ladders protoss is the least common race by a significant margin.
edit: I play protoss in 1v1, but rarely use them in team games because protoss is the weakest in my experience.
Protoss players are generally expected to rush Warp Tech, which makes the Protoss nearly helpless until the first warp.
I think it's wiser to delay Warp for more units (less chrono on warp, Zealot before Core, etc) if you see an aggressive opening that your ally won't be able to protect you from.
On April 17 2011 10:54 CatNzHat wrote: I've hit this a few times on ladder btw, and this build gets destroyed by properly micro'd mass hellion build, in a PZvTT matchup, double hellion opening into banshees will just plain kill you, no way you can break the front with lings, and your warp-in's won't do shit because zealots die so fast to hellions. This build is extremely abusive, takes absolutely 0 skill to execute, and has a skill cap of a pineapple. Hopefully they nerf the crap out of protoss, gateway pushes are destroying terran too hard atm in 1v1 as is, if 1v1 was balanced then maybe 2v2 would be as well, but since toss is imba in 1v1 it's quite logical that they'd be imba in 2v2, especially with a cheesing partner to protect their precious pylon
You are clueless. Go to scranks.com and look at master league for 2v2, 3v3, and 4v4. At the top of those ladders protoss is the least common race by a significant margin.
edit: I play protoss in 1v1, but rarely use them in team games because protoss is the weakest in my experience.
Protoss is just the weakest race when you play a conventional style. The 2v2 style for protoss is very different from the 1v1 protoss. Although Zerg/Terran 1v1 / 2v2 have many similarities. Look at Azide and SuperNinja. They play double protoss and are currently rank 3 in the world.
@mastermind you sound like my brother "protoss have the best death ball with collosi but 1 viking with alot of pride and its all over"...sorry it doesnt always work out like that with or without "pride"
I am Master League 2v2 and we've used this build for quite some time, but you can scout it pretty easily and beat it easily. If you see this early push, you can kill it off and have an instant win
Me and my teammate are top diamond now, and few days ago we won against this build quite easily, considering that we were quite suprised by this strat. I will check replay after work and post it, if im not mistaken.
I'm a Gold Zerg and I grabbed a Protoss friend who just started playing and we easily got into Plat with this build.
How much is it weakened with the warpgate nerf? It seems like it wouldn't be a big enough change for the strategy to have to be modified significantly.
On April 17 2011 10:54 CatNzHat wrote: I've hit this a few times on ladder btw, and this build gets destroyed by properly micro'd mass hellion build, in a PZvTT matchup, double hellion opening into banshees will just plain kill you, no way you can break the front with lings, and your warp-in's won't do shit because zealots die so fast to hellions. This build is extremely abusive, takes absolutely 0 skill to execute, and has a skill cap of a pineapple. Hopefully they nerf the crap out of protoss, gateway pushes are destroying terran too hard atm in 1v1 as is, if 1v1 was balanced then maybe 2v2 would be as well, but since toss is imba in 1v1 it's quite logical that they'd be imba in 2v2, especially with a cheesing partner to protect their precious pylon
why are you posting a balance whine about 1v1 in a 2v2 thread with no proof? Also i would love to hear how you define protoss as "imba", sure they won 2 of the more recent tournys..... but that does not = balance at all... Also really the only way 4gate works in 1v1, is if they play too greedily... or if you catch them completly off guard, please vent somewhere else.
To the op, i haven't tried this yet in 2v2 (we play protoss terran/zerg) but it sounds like it is a quite effective build and i may have to try it. However, i think it may become boring after a few games. But good post =D
On May 12 2011 12:01 Goolpsy wrote: This strategy is as strong as ever. The 20 sec increase in warp gate research is only effectively about 13 with chronoboost.
10 seconds
it's 10 seconds longer. One chrono boost will shave 10 seconds off whatever it chronoboosts (if it lasts the full duration).
I don't know why everyone keeps saying 13 seconds.
If wg is 160 seconds and you chrono it 6 times, then your research time is 100 seconds.
That's wrong, constant chronoboost reduces the research time by 33,33 %.
Before patch : WG time = 140 sec; with chrono boost = 92,4 sec After patch : WG time = 160 sec ; with chrono boost = 105,6 sec
That is 13 seconds difference before and after patch.
Like you said, chrono boost shaves of 10 seconds only if it lasts during the whole 20 secs. If you consider constant chronoboosting (fastest possible time to research something) you have to use the 33,33% rule.
On May 12 2011 19:57 Geiko wrote: That's wrong, constant chronoboost reduces the research time by 33,33 %.
Before patch : WG time = 140 sec; with chrono boost = 92,4 sec After patch : WG time = 160 sec ; with chrono boost = 105,6 sec
That is 13 seconds difference before and after patch.
Like you said, chrono boost shaves of 10 seconds only if it lasts during the whole 20 secs. If you consider constant chronoboosting (fastest possible time to research something) you have to use the 33,33% rule.
Sorry that this is derailing your thread, but you're wrong.
Using that same thread as reference (since I corrected the math on that post)...
In a real game, no one used a 5th chrono boost on WG pre-patch because the benefit too small unless you were doing k4g.
Now, you can use that 5th chrono boost and you gain the full benefit. The 6th chrono, however becomes of very minimal benefit (~3 seconds), and is only even possible to use if you have absolutely perfect chrono boosts. The numbers he posts are in theory if you could do the fastest possible wg chrono, sacrificing as much economy in favor of a few seconds gain on WG.
No build post-patch uses 6 chronos on wg. In theory it's possible, but in practice, your wg is 10 seconds faster because you use 5 full chronos instead of 4.
If you can find a serious build that makes use of a 6th chrono now, I'll stand corrected.
edit: Actually I guess k4g used that 5th chrono, so you have a 93 seconds research time then vs a 110 second time in 1.3 or 107 second if you use the 6th chrono.
However, if you compare 4 v 5 chronos, which every 4gate build other than k4g used (and now, every build will use now), you get 100 vs 110.
The cost of using that 6th chrono on wg research would be roughly 80 minerals for 3 seconds (which I suppose actually isn't that bad of a trade off if you plan on 1-basing).
Actually now that I think about it, I wonder if there's a good 6-chrono all-in in 1.3... maybe I'll start experimenting. You can only even possibly get a 6th chrono in if your chrono boosts are 100% perfect for the entire 107 seconds though, so you'd need to chrono every 18-19 seconds to be safe.
This is a really fun build to play if you have a newbie friend. It makes them feel gold because even if they can't execute the build very well you'll easily place into Gold or even Plat and that can encourage them to give more Starcraft games and 1v1 a try. It also teaches the importance of timing and optimized builds even if it's not the best build for teaching someone to macro.
Even with the reduced pylon radius and the warp gate research time increase I feel like this is still a pretty solid build especially if you're not taking it too seriously and just want to own some nerds and enjoy the awesomeness that is warping in zealots on the high ground with OL vision.
a possible counter to this build would be a zerg went for fast blings. The blings could kill zealots and zerglings. Also if you knew the build was coming you could wall off the mineral line as well as build static defenses there. Though if you knew it was coming, you could harass/kill the probe building the pylons.
So far I have not one against it, I play terran with random team mates and it seems even if I get attacked and counter correctly with bunkers I still get wiped out so fast they can just steam roll my ally as well.
It seems early coordinated attacks are really strong in 2v2s.
So far I have not one against it, I play terran with random team mates and it seems even if I get attacked and counter correctly with bunkers I still get wiped out so fast they can just steam roll my ally as well.
It seems early coordinated attacks are really strong in 2v2s.
So far I have not one against it, I play terran with random team mates and it seems even if I get attacked and counter correctly with bunkers I still get wiped out so fast they can just steam roll my ally as well.
It seems early coordinated attacks are really strong in 2v2s.
I would think the standard T+Z 10 pool reactored hellions would counter it pretty solidly, especially if the zerg dropped a spine or two with the battle taking place at that base. the hellions would basically negate the scvs cause they could kite them. If the zerg opted for banelings before speed it would be an easy win, I think.
Ultimately the best way to defend this requires a competative leap in 2v2.
By that I mean that proxy overlords near the edge of your base are a serious threat in PZ teams, and they need to be scouted out constantly. Its really just a basic competative demand, but given how sc2 is still within its first year, 2v2's haven't developed to the point that people are completely aware of the different cheeses that are possible from different race combinations.
On June 04 2011 10:46 .Mthex- wrote: Ultimately the best way to defend this requires a competative leap in 2v2.
By that I mean that proxy overlords near the edge of your base are a serious threat in PZ teams, and they need to be scouted out constantly. Its really just a basic competative demand, but given how sc2 is still within its first year, 2v2's haven't developed to the point that people are completely aware of the different cheeses that are possible from different race combinations.
Uhhh, what? 2v2 has changed a lot over the last year and most good teams are proficient at defeating cheesy builds like this.
Sorry for bumping, but this Build is still viable! Just played it whit an random mate and we made it easily into Top Dia (EU) even faced some Masters and crushed them hard.
We got always scouted early, but they can't do much against it, if you face ZT for example and the terran gets helions, you still got tons of speedlings to deal with them, while your mates will warp in enough zealots to deal with lings/blings and spine crawler are not a big problem. Against PP you could add a few banelings yourself to deal with an bigger amount of zealots than your mate have. ZZ seems to be the easiest oppoents, while PZ depends on their scouting if it will be easy or hard (if they will get stalker/sentry/roaches just in time when you gonna push). Ofc this isn't a pure a-click playstyle, it's more or less micro heavy but kinda easy to execute and just crush even top masters while haveing alot of fun
On June 06 2011 04:26 BiGwOrm wrote: how to change your build if you have two terrans as oppoents ?
bainling bust should be the best option but how excactly is the build order ?
thx in advance
Theres no exactly BO. You will always realize if you really need banelings or if your still ok with mass speedlings, if you see them adding more rax, possibly with reactors, send 3 drones into gas and get a banelingnest asap. That's how i did it.
These types of builds are EXCELLENT in team games. I personally prefer a 2-Hatch mass speedling style to this one, it allows your 5:45/6:00 timing attack to be much larger and also allows you to reinforce and, occasionally, transition. It also still hits before DTs or any other dangerous form of tech finish, and optimizes the ling count you have when your protoss ally is warping in.
On April 22 2012 02:27 TangSC wrote: These types of builds are EXCELLENT in team games. I personally prefer a 2-Hatch mass speedling style to this one, it allows your 5:45/6:00 timing attack to be much larger and also allows you to reinforce and, occasionally, transition. It also still hits before DTs or any other dangerous form of tech finish, and optimizes the ling count you have when your protoss ally is warping in.
Do you know a few other BO's? Also would like to know how do you play your prefered 2-Hatch mass speedling style
For 2-hatch speedling all-in the best way to do it is go hatch first on 15 then gas pool right after. Saturate your main mineral line, get 2 queens, and pump lings for great success!
On April 22 2012 02:27 TangSC wrote: These types of builds are EXCELLENT in team games. I personally prefer a 2-Hatch mass speedling style to this one, it allows your 5:45/6:00 timing attack to be much larger and also allows you to reinforce and, occasionally, transition. It also still hits before DTs or any other dangerous form of tech finish, and optimizes the ling count you have when your protoss ally is warping in.
Do you know a few other BO's? Also would like to know how do you play your prefered 2-Hatch mass speedling style
just good scouting, the 24 speeding can be just walled off and ff's blocked, and looking for close pylons and overlord combination. focus the overlord so the protoss has limited vison to warp up.
there are sim city styles that counter both mass speedling and heavy zealoy pressure that utalize cannon exspand or defence.